1 00:00:03,360 --> 00:00:07,040 Speaker 1: Rube. 2 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:10,799 Speaker 2: I'm not okay. I don't know what's going on. I've 3 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 2: never had this happen before, and I don't know where 4 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:14,120 Speaker 2: to go and what to do. 5 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:17,599 Speaker 3: I said, Michelle's having a serious problem. You have to 6 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:19,119 Speaker 3: get over there. You need to go now. 7 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:21,799 Speaker 4: This is an invisible illness. 8 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:24,800 Speaker 5: And that's what I think makes it so difficult, because 9 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 5: they come in and they have all these complaints, but 10 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 5: they look fine. 11 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 2: I was standing in the mirror and I just remember 12 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:33,519 Speaker 2: looking at myself and I said out loud, there's no 13 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:34,599 Speaker 2: way you're going to make it through this. 14 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 1: How terrifying would it be to fight an unknown enemy, 15 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 1: one you didn't recognize and didn't see coming. What if 16 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:46,560 Speaker 1: that enemy was coming from within a disease that even 17 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:50,879 Speaker 1: doctors couldn't identify. Nearly half of Americans suffer from some 18 00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 1: chronic illness, and many struggle for an accurate diagnosis. 19 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 4: These are their stories. 20 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 1: I'm Lauren Bray Pacheco and this is symptomatic. 21 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:12,600 Speaker 2: I am Michelle Shapiro, and I'm an integrative and functional 22 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 2: registered dietitian. 23 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 1: Michelle is the kind of person who never meets a stranger. 24 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:23,880 Speaker 1: She speaks with enthusiasm, confidence, and is undeniably a New Yorker. 25 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 1: So you grew up at Queen's. Tell me a little 26 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:30,640 Speaker 1: bit about your childhood and life growing up. 27 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:34,080 Speaker 2: I grew up in one of the most diverse neighborhoods 28 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:36,200 Speaker 2: in the entire world. I think my high school was 29 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:38,039 Speaker 2: the most diverse high school in the entire world at 30 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:40,840 Speaker 2: one point. And because of that, I had such a 31 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:45,679 Speaker 2: rich experience in life in just about every way. Socially, 32 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 2: I had a really beautiful life. But I had, in 33 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:52,360 Speaker 2: my opinion, like this very ideal childhood where all of 34 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 2: my best friends were the children of my parents' best 35 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 2: friends and my sister's best friends. I really grew up 36 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:03,280 Speaker 2: in community that was deeply inclusive and also just rich 37 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 2: in diversity in every way possible. 38 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 1: You mentioned your sister, Jennifer, and I know you too 39 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 1: are incredibly close. Tell me a little bit about your 40 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:17,240 Speaker 1: relationship and why, in addition to being sisters, you're also 41 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 1: best friends. 42 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:20,880 Speaker 2: I can't even think about her without crying. She is 43 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 2: the tougher, grittier, cooler version of me, and she is 44 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 2: my true blue soulmate, my sister. 45 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 3: I am Jennifer Shapiro, and I am Michelle's big sister. 46 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 1: Jennifer is almost three years older than Michelle, but the 47 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:42,119 Speaker 1: pair have always been inseparable. Tell me a little bit 48 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:45,640 Speaker 1: about your camaraderie from the get go. What were you 49 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 1: two like growing up? 50 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:50,079 Speaker 3: I think that a lot of people think, because we're 51 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 3: two girls and we are so close in age, that 52 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:57,600 Speaker 3: there would be a lot of like competition between us. 53 00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 3: But we never really in our entire life that we 54 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 3: never really had a lot of the disagreements that other 55 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 3: sisters frequently had, to the point where we grew up 56 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 3: in a house that had extra bedrooms and we shared 57 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:16,120 Speaker 3: a room until I left for college, just because we 58 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 3: wanted to. 59 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 1: I love that for somebody who hasn't had the pleasure 60 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 1: of meeting your little sister, how would you describe Michelle magic? 61 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 3: It's all the Michelle magic. Everybody wants a piece of Michelle. 62 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 3: Everyone wants to have her attention and feel her kindness 63 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 3: and her empathy all the time. Like we can be 64 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:48,120 Speaker 3: in a public place and all of a sudden, the 65 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 3: waitress will just be telling her about something that happened 66 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 3: when she was three. Everyone wants to bear their soul 67 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 3: to Michelle. 68 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 1: This natural gift, a warmth that invites has always been 69 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 1: Michelle's for power and strength. Growing up, Michelle never had 70 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 1: any trouble forming friendships based on authentic connection. It hadn't 71 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 1: even occurred to her that surface level judgments may stand 72 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 1: in the way of her being accepted. 73 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 2: One thing that was kind of different about me growing 74 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 2: up was that I always occupied a larger body. 75 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 3: Michelle and I frankly were both overweight a lot of 76 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:26,279 Speaker 3: our childhood and adolescens, Michelle particularly, but I definitely was 77 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:27,839 Speaker 3: the largest out of my friends. 78 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:30,839 Speaker 2: It really wasn't much of a problem in Queen's versus 79 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:33,599 Speaker 2: other places. I think people are judged on a different curve. 80 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:36,599 Speaker 2: I think genetics played a role. And then also we 81 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 2: came from a household where love our mother more than anything, 82 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 2: but she didn't cook, and just in that I had 83 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:45,640 Speaker 2: leaned on highly processed foods, we had, you know, trauma 84 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 2: like everyone else did growing up. That led to ME 85 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 2: using food as an emotional tool. 86 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:52,000 Speaker 1: When it was time for Michelle to go a way 87 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:54,480 Speaker 1: to college, she began to fear that she would be 88 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 1: quickly evaluated by her peers based merely on what they 89 00:04:58,240 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 1: saw that. 90 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 2: Was going to the universe. Dave Delaware and I realized, hmm, 91 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:05,360 Speaker 2: They're not going to instantly know me for who I am. 92 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:08,160 Speaker 2: This is a much more homogeneous place where people are 93 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:11,279 Speaker 2: going to really judge you based on first appearances. And 94 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:14,279 Speaker 2: I realized going into college, I need to lose weight, 95 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 2: and I need to lose weight quick if I'm going 96 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 2: to be able to do the things I want to 97 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 2: do and socialize in the ways I want to do. 98 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 2: I lost close to one hundred pounds in the year 99 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:27,240 Speaker 2: leading into college. How did you do that? Just really 100 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 2: severe calory restriction. And I also went on a radical 101 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 2: vegan diet. I think my vegan diet was also a 102 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:38,919 Speaker 2: little bit of disordered eating in disguise. I would say. 103 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:43,480 Speaker 3: I think that it was hard because she knew deep 104 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:45,920 Speaker 3: down that what she was doing to her body by 105 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:49,520 Speaker 3: not eating was not healthy, but she was getting so 106 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 3: much like external praise because she was someone that had 107 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:58,239 Speaker 3: always been, you know, like the big girl in the group. 108 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 3: I think it was hard for her to like wreck 109 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 3: and sile. 110 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 1: Those she was gaining the kind of social capital that 111 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:07,920 Speaker 1: often comes with weight loss in our society. Michelle went 112 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:10,719 Speaker 1: off to college and started to experience health issues. 113 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 2: I thought, again, like anyone else, that when you lose 114 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:17,599 Speaker 2: weight all of your health problems go away and everything's perfect, 115 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 2: And I had the exact opposite experience what happened. I 116 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 2: would describe my time in college as being incredibly sick. 117 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 2: I went from being this hypersocial person with a massive 118 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 2: social network and support system to someone who had debilitating 119 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 2: panic attacks and could barely leave my dorm room. I 120 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 2: was very dizzy a lot of college too, and I 121 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 2: had acid reflux and severe gut issues. 122 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:48,360 Speaker 4: Psychologically, that must have been grueling. 123 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:52,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, I really disliked panic attacks of all symptoms, and 124 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 2: anyone who's experienced chronic panic attacks will tell you I'll 125 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:58,120 Speaker 2: take most things over a chronic panic attack. 126 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:01,720 Speaker 1: Can you explain that to somebody who hasn't had a 127 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 1: panic attack? 128 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:06,360 Speaker 2: It feels like you're going to die, I guess is 129 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:08,920 Speaker 2: the most specific way I can explain it. And it 130 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 2: feels like every single cell in your body is instructing 131 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:14,480 Speaker 2: your brain that you're going to die and there's absolutely 132 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:16,200 Speaker 2: no way out of it. That's what it feels like 133 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 2: in the moment, is that there is. It's like you 134 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 2: wouldn't be able to run, you wouldn't be able to 135 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 2: use any of those emergency mechanisms because your entire body 136 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 2: is just trying to tell you that you're going to die. 137 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 2: It feels like the most extreme version of any symptom, 138 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 2: your heart pounding, sweating, terror, terror at the highest level. 139 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:39,840 Speaker 2: As a person who's always felt like I can get 140 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 2: through anything, this was one of the first times in 141 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 2: my life where I was like, I don't know if 142 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:46,680 Speaker 2: I'm going to make it through this. 143 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 1: Did you seek medical treatment at the time, and what 144 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 1: were you told by doctors? 145 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:58,520 Speaker 2: I absolutely sawt medical treatment for the panic attacks. I 146 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 2: went to any doctor, the health center and a doctor 147 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 2: I could off campus, and their answers were, you have anxiety, 148 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 2: you have a permanent panic disorder, you can take medication 149 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 2: for life. 150 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 3: I was away at college, but I remember there was 151 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:18,680 Speaker 3: like things with her needing to constantly go on like 152 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 3: drives with my dad to calm herself down, knowing exactly 153 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 3: how long it would take her to get home, like 154 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 3: she always wanted to be sure that if she did 155 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:28,320 Speaker 3: have like a panic attack, that she would be able 156 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 3: to like get home and get back to like a 157 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:32,680 Speaker 3: safe place and regulate her nervous system. 158 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:37,200 Speaker 1: Though she was experiencing debilitating anxiety, Michelle made it through 159 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:40,880 Speaker 1: school and inspired by her own weight loss journey, decided 160 00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 1: to pursue a career as a dietitian. 161 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 2: And to be honest with you, Lauren, and I went 162 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:47,200 Speaker 2: in to school to be a dietitian, to learn like 163 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:49,240 Speaker 2: the secrets of weight loss, even though I had already 164 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:52,079 Speaker 2: lost the weight. A lot of dietitians actually suffer from 165 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:57,080 Speaker 2: disordered eating and eating disorders disproportionately to other practitioners. In 166 00:08:57,120 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 2: the beginning, that was the transparent goal. It wasn't until 167 00:08:59,880 --> 00:09:02,559 Speaker 2: I graduated that I really understood what my mission and 168 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 2: my purpose was. 169 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:08,199 Speaker 1: After graduating, Michelle gets a job working in nursing homes. 170 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 1: The drive to work is a long commute, and suddenly 171 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:14,839 Speaker 1: she begins to notice new terrifying symptoms. 172 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 2: I remember walking through the hallways and holding on to 173 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:21,560 Speaker 2: the walls because the dizziness was so extreme for me. 174 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 2: It's unsteadiness, but also a lot of visual disturbance. It's 175 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:29,680 Speaker 2: just like a whoa, whoa who kind of feeling. 176 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:33,480 Speaker 1: Here's her sister, Jennifer's recollection of that time. 177 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:36,199 Speaker 3: She was driving to the Bronx from the border of 178 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 3: Queens and Long Island, so you know, it was forty 179 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 3: five minutes to an hour and I would remember she 180 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:43,640 Speaker 3: would come out of the car and look like totally 181 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:48,960 Speaker 3: depleted as a person, like dizzy, tired, like stumbling, and 182 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 3: she kept saying like, I'm having so much trouble driving, 183 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 3: I'm getting so tired. And at first it was like 184 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:55,840 Speaker 3: confusing as we were like why, like you've driven back 185 00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:58,599 Speaker 3: and forth to Delaware, Like it just started kind of 186 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:02,840 Speaker 3: slowly happening, and then she kept having like very severe 187 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:06,840 Speaker 3: dizziness bells. I remember there was like a time that 188 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 3: there was a candle holder on the wall at my 189 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 3: mom's house and she just like walked right into it, 190 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 3: and I was like, what are you doing? Because she 191 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 3: couldn't even like see straight really like she was so 192 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 3: dizzy and out of it, and she really hit her 193 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 3: head hard. 194 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 2: During those times when I was dizzy, I would also 195 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 2: get this like singy feeling. There's a tremor that kind 196 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 2: of happens. It feels like ants crawling onto your skin 197 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:31,080 Speaker 2: a bit, and you have to understand, I'm at work, 198 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:34,079 Speaker 2: I'm dizzy, I have no idea where it's coming from, 199 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 2: and I have no tools to fix it. 200 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:42,559 Speaker 1: After a few years at the nursing home job, Michelle 201 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 1: takes a job as an in house dietician for a 202 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:47,959 Speaker 1: company in Manhattan with dreams of opening up her own 203 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:52,120 Speaker 1: private practice. Michelle is working overtime to meet with clients 204 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:56,199 Speaker 1: after hours, and the dizziness, now coupled with brain fog 205 00:10:56,240 --> 00:10:58,320 Speaker 1: and fatigue, will not stop. 206 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:01,720 Speaker 2: I worked from seven to three, and I saw private 207 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:04,800 Speaker 2: practice clients from four to ten every day, so I 208 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:08,000 Speaker 2: was working from seven am to ten pm. I had 209 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:10,720 Speaker 2: started to dip my toe into the functional medicine world 210 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 2: a little bit, and I was like, Oh, this must 211 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:16,560 Speaker 2: be a dreamal fatigue, This must be HPA access dysregulation, 212 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 2: this must be burnout. So I was trying to fix, 213 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 2: like put those root cause pieces together. You can chalk 214 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 2: anything up to burnout, right, So I was like, Okay, listen, 215 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:28,600 Speaker 2: you're working like one hundred hours a week, so this 216 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 2: is why this is what's happening. But I tolerated feeling 217 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 2: awful so fascinating because your symptoms just took a backseat 218 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 2: to your career. 219 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:45,679 Speaker 1: And so while your symptoms are escalating, so are your 220 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 1: responsibilities and your workload. 221 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:49,319 Speaker 4: There had to have been like a. 222 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 1: Crash in twenty eighteen and twenty nineteen. Michelle's symptoms continue 223 00:11:56,559 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 1: to escalate. She begins to experience headaches that will not 224 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:04,640 Speaker 1: go away, gas, trou intestinal issues, and persistent insomnia. After 225 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 1: discovering she's been exposed to toxic mold in her apartment, 226 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:13,120 Speaker 1: she begins mold detoxes through functional medicine doctors. But somehow 227 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:15,400 Speaker 1: this treatment that was meant to help her feel better 228 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:19,840 Speaker 1: seems to be making her symptoms exponentially worse. And then 229 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty one, Michelle gets COVID. 230 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:25,560 Speaker 2: That was a whole different ballgame again. I mean, I 231 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 2: was unbelievably sick. There was new pain symptoms in all 232 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:31,920 Speaker 2: of my joints. I feel like my joints are moving 233 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:33,800 Speaker 2: in a way that they're not supposed to. There was 234 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:36,200 Speaker 2: something with my neck, There was something with my back. 235 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:38,040 Speaker 2: I would throw my back out all the time, even 236 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:40,720 Speaker 2: though I was like an active person. My knees would 237 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:44,240 Speaker 2: constantly be hurting. And there's a distinct feeling of dizziness 238 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:47,479 Speaker 2: what I would call instability that I started to recognize 239 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:50,760 Speaker 2: as being related to my neck. So I'd prop up 240 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:53,560 Speaker 2: like ten pillows behind me, propped up on pillow mountain 241 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:55,960 Speaker 2: in bed with an f brace on because I couldn't 242 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 2: lie fully back. 243 00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:02,520 Speaker 1: An ever growing list of symptoms seemingly disconnected, and unfortunately 244 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 1: it was all about to get much, much worse. 245 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:12,480 Speaker 2: The crash, the real big crash, came in twenty twenty two. 246 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:17,200 Speaker 2: I did end up moving from Manhattan to New Jersey. 247 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 2: I'm about five minutes outside of Manhattan, but still counts 248 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 2: because I needed to have a car again. Once I 249 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:27,040 Speaker 2: started driving again, those old school dizzyness symptoms started coming 250 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 2: up again. So I ended up going to a chiropractor 251 00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 2: who was about a block away from my apartment. They 252 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 2: were feeling my neck and they said, you know, in 253 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:38,400 Speaker 2: my twenty years of experience, you have the tightest neck 254 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 2: I've ever felt. They were digging into my neck to 255 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:44,680 Speaker 2: try to loosen everything. I got down the stairs after 256 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:48,040 Speaker 2: the chiropractor's appointment, and I noticed my heart was pounding 257 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:54,360 Speaker 2: like through my ears, and I remember the thoughts pounding 258 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 2: inside of my head going, you can't walk. If you 259 00:13:56,920 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 2: walk one more step, you're gonna die. If you've moved back, 260 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 2: you're gonna die. I get down, Get down, Get down, 261 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:03,480 Speaker 2: get down, like almost like I was inn a war movie. 262 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:06,199 Speaker 2: So I got down on all fours outside of the 263 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:08,079 Speaker 2: chiropractor and I told my sister. 264 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:12,960 Speaker 3: She was like, I can't walk, I can't move. Every 265 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 3: time she would stand up, her blood pressure was dropping 266 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:16,680 Speaker 3: lower and lower and lower. 267 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 2: I'm not okay. I have to tell you right now. 268 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 2: I'm seriously not okay. My body is not okay. I 269 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 2: just left disappointment. I don't know what's going on. 270 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 3: I'm scared. I can't be alone. 271 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:30,960 Speaker 2: I've never had this happen before, and I don't know 272 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:32,000 Speaker 2: where to go and what to do. 273 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 1: We'll be right back with Symptomatic, a Medical Mystery Podcast. 274 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:47,119 Speaker 1: Now back to Symptomatic, a medical mystery podcast. Michelle Shapiro 275 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:51,600 Speaker 1: has spent years dealing with seemingly unprompted bouts of dizziness, 276 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 1: extreme anxiety to the point of panic attacks, gas, true 277 00:14:55,400 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 1: intestinal issues, insomnia, headaches, and joint pain. An appointment with 278 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 1: a chiropractor, Michelle is left unable to walk, literally crawling 279 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 1: to the closest urgent care five city blocks away. 280 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:13,520 Speaker 2: My heart was pounding like through my ears, but I 281 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 2: got down on all fours outside of the chiropractorics. I 282 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 2: was trying to get breath in. I was laying on 283 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 2: the floor, so I called my sister and I said, 284 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:24,080 Speaker 2: I have to make it to the yar because I 285 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:26,680 Speaker 2: couldn't even make it back upstairs. And I said, and 286 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:28,320 Speaker 2: I'm just gonna call on the cement to go to 287 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:30,800 Speaker 2: the first med, which was like five blocks away. 288 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 3: I was like, you have to do what you have 289 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 3: to do. I will stay on the phone with you. 290 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 3: We'll have our dad come to get you after this. 291 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 3: But you are going to have to drop down and 292 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 3: we're going to take it breath by breath, and you 293 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:43,440 Speaker 3: are going to get there. 294 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:45,920 Speaker 2: And I would stop every like five steps, and I 295 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 2: was like, I can't do this. I can't do this. 296 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:49,280 Speaker 2: And she's like, you have a few more steps. You 297 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 2: have a few more steps. 298 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:53,000 Speaker 1: Are you frantically kind of texting your father as you're 299 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 1: coaching her? 300 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 3: I think I called him and I was just like, Daddy, 301 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 3: you have to go to Michelle right now. Michelle's having 302 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:00,240 Speaker 3: a serious problem. You have to get over there. She's 303 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 3: going to be at the first med. I'll text you 304 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 3: the address, but you need to go now. 305 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 2: When you're in that state, you don't know if walking 306 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 2: or stopping or sitting is going to make it better, 307 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 2: because when you're sitting, you also feel the heart pounding 308 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 2: and dizziness so much, and you're so aware of the symptoms, 309 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 2: so you just feel like, I literally do not know 310 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:22,160 Speaker 2: which way to go. It's psychologically and the physical terror experience. 311 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 1: You must have been terrified. 312 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 2: I have to tell you, Lauren, that was not a 313 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:31,360 Speaker 2: good day for me. Yes, I was completely completely terrified, 314 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 2: and so I made it to the city MD on. 315 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 2: I walked in on the floor and I pulled myself 316 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 2: up and I said, I'm having some sort of a 317 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 2: heart episode. They did every positional change they could to 318 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 2: try to lower my heart rate. Eventually they said, this 319 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 2: looks like some high heart rate, high blood pressure episode, 320 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 2: but if your baseline is not bad, I would get 321 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:54,800 Speaker 2: evaluated for your heart Essentially, I'm going to write you 322 00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 2: a per panel all prescription. I would recommend you take it. 323 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 2: So they had me take it for my blood pressure 324 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 2: and my heart rate to come down and then set 325 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 2: me home. Essentially, they were as helpful as they could be, 326 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 2: but they were like, we don't really know. Maybe you 327 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:13,200 Speaker 2: should investigate pods pots being pushural or the thestatic techy 328 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:16,719 Speaker 2: cardia syndrome. Where do you go from there? 329 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 1: I mean, having had an episode where you have to 330 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 1: crawl five city blocks. 331 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was. It's I have to laugh, but it 332 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:28,680 Speaker 2: was really quite bad, Lauren. It was really quite bad. 333 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 1: After leaving Urgent Care on that terrifying day, Michelle's symptoms 334 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 1: only get worse, as if a switch flicked on that 335 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:39,560 Speaker 1: cannot be turned off. 336 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 2: I would have violent tremors and insomnia all night. If 337 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 2: I had to go to the bathroom, I had to 338 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:48,560 Speaker 2: literally lift myself up with my arms onto my computer 339 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:51,679 Speaker 2: chair and wheel myself put myself on the floor crawl 340 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:54,960 Speaker 2: because if I put my feet on the ground, my 341 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:58,880 Speaker 2: heart rate fluctuations were so severe that I would then 342 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:01,200 Speaker 2: be an episode for days. So I was like, it's 343 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 2: just not worth it. While I was figuring that out, 344 00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:07,760 Speaker 2: I also had that adrenaline response, that insomnia response, that 345 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 2: diarrhea response. I never really felt hopelessness until that moment. 346 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 3: She was like strapping on a neck brace and seeing 347 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:20,199 Speaker 3: forty clients a week. In some ways, her life was 348 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:23,720 Speaker 3: so severely impacted, but in others she's such a strong 349 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:26,800 Speaker 3: and like resilient person that she was just fighting her 350 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:29,600 Speaker 3: way through. Like I remember once I took her for 351 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 3: a colonoscopy. You know, they didn't really find much, and 352 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:36,639 Speaker 3: I remember her talking to the GI doctor after and 353 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:39,280 Speaker 3: being like, I'm telling you there is something wrong, and 354 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:41,560 Speaker 3: it's like, do you think your son or anybody else 355 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 3: would want to feel so dizzy that they are crawling 356 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:46,800 Speaker 3: in the street. You wouldn't wish it on your worst enemy. 357 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:50,560 Speaker 3: So it's so disheartening when people didn't believe Michelle or 358 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:52,119 Speaker 3: understand the severity of it. 359 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 1: Throughout this time, Michelle has gotten engaged, beautiful milestones in 360 00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:02,719 Speaker 1: her life taking place alongside he's incredibly debilitating set of symptoms. 361 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:05,720 Speaker 1: In the spring of twenty twenty two, Michelle has a 362 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:09,080 Speaker 1: bachelorette party and it does not go to plan. 363 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:13,560 Speaker 2: The night before the bachelorette party, my best friend came 364 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:16,320 Speaker 2: from out of town. We were doing karaoke. I remember 365 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 2: doing one or two songs and I couldn't stand anymore. 366 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:21,359 Speaker 2: So basically everyone else I was like, just enjoy yourself. 367 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:23,080 Speaker 2: I found a couch in the airbnb and I was 368 00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:25,240 Speaker 2: just laying on it and people would come sit on 369 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 2: the floor and talk to me while I'm laying and 370 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 2: they started to see how serious the situation was. I 371 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 2: literally did not sleep one minute during that night. I 372 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:36,680 Speaker 2: was just wide awake, and I was like, this is 373 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:38,760 Speaker 2: so frustrating because I wanted to feel better for it, 374 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 2: and then my neck brace, my back brace, eyes bogged out, completely, 375 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:46,680 Speaker 2: violently shaking all night, stomach upset all night before my wedding. 376 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:48,240 Speaker 2: When my friend was in town, I was like, I 377 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:50,480 Speaker 2: have to show you this amazing thing. Look what I 378 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:52,400 Speaker 2: can do. And I turned my neck like one inch 379 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:55,240 Speaker 2: to the left and he was like, is that amazing. 380 00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:57,760 Speaker 2: He's like, I'm really upset that you think that's amazing. 381 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:03,240 Speaker 1: Now, almost a decade after her panic attacks began in college, 382 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 1: Michelle is suffering from gastro intestinal issues, unbearable dizziness, tremors, insomnia, 383 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 1: and months after the dramatic day at our chiropractor's office, 384 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:18,480 Speaker 1: she is still struggling to move. Was there ever a 385 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:22,840 Speaker 1: moment that you can remember that you thought, I just 386 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 1: can't continue to live like this. 387 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 2: I had taken my computer chair realchair to the bathroom 388 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 2: and I was standing in the mirror, holding on and 389 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 2: it was one of the first times I was like 390 00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:36,399 Speaker 2: standing up, and I just remember looking at myself and 391 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:39,240 Speaker 2: I said out loud, there's no way you're going to 392 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 2: make it through this, just just there's no way. This time. 393 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:45,480 Speaker 2: I know you've done it. You've done it before you 394 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:47,479 Speaker 2: did the weight loss thing, you did the panic attack thing, 395 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 2: You've done it. It's not this time, You're not going 396 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 2: to make it. 397 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 1: It sounds like you were at your breaking point that 398 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:56,880 Speaker 1: something just had to give. 399 00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:01,840 Speaker 2: Some other part of me, like inside of me, just 400 00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:05,159 Speaker 2: said and you're never going to say that again. But 401 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:10,040 Speaker 2: it took that rock bottom moment of true hopelessness for 402 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 2: like that other side of me to come rescue me. 403 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 1: Honestly, it was at that moment Michelle made it her 404 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:20,080 Speaker 1: mission to get to the bottom of this medical mystery. 405 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:23,639 Speaker 1: She began her research, a deep dive into everything she 406 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:26,240 Speaker 1: could find that could be a clue, putting her knowledge 407 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:30,800 Speaker 1: of science and the body to work. So from Pillow Mountain, 408 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 1: you know, you're collecting all these bits and pieces and components. 409 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:38,919 Speaker 2: This is almost like a CSI. It was literally like that. 410 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 2: There was like maps all over my apartment. I was 411 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:42,199 Speaker 2: trying to figure out what this is. 412 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:44,440 Speaker 1: And then at some point you turned to one of 413 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:46,119 Speaker 1: my favorite places in the world. 414 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 2: Reddit read It was my hero during this time, and 415 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:55,760 Speaker 2: I started to find language for what was going on 416 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:57,920 Speaker 2: with me, and that to me was like the most 417 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:02,280 Speaker 2: liberating thing. I'm like, Okay, you have these words, Michelle. 418 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:04,920 Speaker 2: We have this word hypermobility somewhere in the mix, right, 419 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:07,919 Speaker 2: we have this weird pots thing. I had a doctor 420 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:11,159 Speaker 2: test in twenty nineteen pre covid and said you have 421 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:13,840 Speaker 2: really high histamines, and to me that meant like I 422 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:15,400 Speaker 2: was like, I don't have any skin issues. I don't 423 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:18,439 Speaker 2: have any seasonal allergies. It didn't mean as much to 424 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:22,160 Speaker 2: me then, but then I started to again put these 425 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 2: pieces together. So that's where I started to pull that 426 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 2: word histamine to the front of mind, because I also 427 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:31,879 Speaker 2: noticed when I would take pepsid, my tremors would completely stop. 428 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:35,639 Speaker 2: And I saw one study that I literally got it 429 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:38,639 Speaker 2: from Reddit, which is funny enough, on long COVID, and 430 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:40,919 Speaker 2: this was a complete breakthrough moment for me. 431 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 1: What had the study found? 432 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:46,879 Speaker 2: It was about hospitalized patients. They studied sixteen hospitalized patients 433 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:49,440 Speaker 2: and they put them on eighty milligrams of fomodidine pepsid, 434 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:53,160 Speaker 2: and they found that those who were on the femodidine 435 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:56,959 Speaker 2: had an eighty percent reduction in long COVID symptoms. And 436 00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:59,639 Speaker 2: I was like, why are they giving them an acid 437 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 2: block drug for COVID until I realized that pepsid was 438 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:07,480 Speaker 2: an antihistamine. I also noticed when I would take pepsid, 439 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 2: my tremors would completely stop. That was one of my 440 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:12,159 Speaker 2: biggest aha moments. 441 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 1: So you then approach a doctor and you specifically asked 442 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:21,040 Speaker 1: for a histamine serum test, yes, and it came back 443 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:23,880 Speaker 1: sky high. When you say sky high, give me an 444 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:24,880 Speaker 1: idea of. 445 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:27,240 Speaker 2: You want it to be less than two. Mine was 446 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:30,359 Speaker 2: like fifteen, which I was really excited about, honestly because 447 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:33,359 Speaker 2: of the validation it gave me. The third piece of 448 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 2: my puzzle was the pots piece. So I did have 449 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:39,200 Speaker 2: a colleague who's a cardiologist, do the tilt table test 450 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 2: with me, and I failed beautifully. 451 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 1: With the help of her expert Internet sleuthing skills, Michelle 452 00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:48,560 Speaker 1: began to realize that her range of symptoms pointed in 453 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 1: one clear direction, and. 454 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 2: That's where I figured out MCS was the root for 455 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:56,400 Speaker 2: me of the rest of what was going on. 456 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:04,399 Speaker 1: Mast cell activations also known as MCASS. After seventeen years 457 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:08,680 Speaker 1: of questions, Michelle finally had some answers, but the answers 458 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:13,320 Speaker 1: would only continue to evolve. Doctor Tanya Dempsey is an 459 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:17,399 Speaker 1: expert in chronic diseases, autoimmune disorders and one of the 460 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:22,160 Speaker 1: world's leading experts on mass cell activation syndrome, a new 461 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:25,640 Speaker 1: frontier of medicine that is still very much in its infancy. 462 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:30,080 Speaker 1: How do you explain mast cell activation syndrome? 463 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:34,040 Speaker 5: So a mast cell is a white blood cell. So 464 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:35,120 Speaker 5: it's a white blood cell. 465 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:35,880 Speaker 4: They are there to. 466 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,760 Speaker 5: Help fight Now, a lot of people may know that 467 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:42,520 Speaker 5: white blood cells circulate in the blood, and the mast 468 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:45,040 Speaker 5: cell is a white blood cell that doesn't circulate in 469 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 5: the blood. It actually lives in the tissues of our bodies. 470 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:55,240 Speaker 5: It's in our skin, in our respiratory track, in our 471 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:59,120 Speaker 5: GI tract. They are in the tissues and the parts 472 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:02,720 Speaker 5: of the body that interface with the environment, all these 473 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 5: things that I just mentioned. The skin, right is write 474 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:08,400 Speaker 5: in contact with the outside world. The GI track, when 475 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:11,080 Speaker 5: you eat food from the environment. 476 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 4: It's in contact. Right. 477 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:15,560 Speaker 5: Normal mass cells are really really important in helping fight infection. 478 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:19,200 Speaker 5: One of the ways that mass cells react and try 479 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:21,160 Speaker 5: to help is that they explode. 480 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:22,440 Speaker 4: We call it degranulate. 481 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:26,520 Speaker 5: They manufacture these different chemicals that we call them mediators, 482 00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 5: and these different chemicals are released from the mass cell 483 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:35,600 Speaker 5: in an attempt to quote unquote fight off whatever they're 484 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:36,280 Speaker 5: trying to fight. 485 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 2: They're always looking to assess for threats, whether they're perceived 486 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:43,280 Speaker 2: or realized, and they will send out messages to the 487 00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:45,439 Speaker 2: rest of the body on what to do in a 488 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:48,560 Speaker 2: time of threat. The problem with mass Sell autivation syndrome 489 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:52,840 Speaker 2: is that those messengers have their own problems. When there's 490 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:54,679 Speaker 2: too many of them, they cause their own problems. So, 491 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:57,960 Speaker 2: while we need our mass cells to help us during 492 00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:01,639 Speaker 2: times of injury, during times of threat, if we have 493 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:05,720 Speaker 2: too many of those messengers floating around, they create new symptoms, 494 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 2: and that is the experience of having mass Sell activation syndrome. 495 00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:13,760 Speaker 5: One of the chemicals that mass tells make is called histamine. 496 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,560 Speaker 2: The reason we talk about histamine a bit more than 497 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,439 Speaker 2: the rest is because they tend to cause one of 498 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:23,760 Speaker 2: the most dramatic symptom sets. And one of the biggest 499 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:28,680 Speaker 2: functions of histamine is to cause something called vasodilation. Vasodilation 500 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:30,520 Speaker 2: is the widening of our blood vessels. 501 00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:33,720 Speaker 1: How is that connected to mcasts. 502 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:35,680 Speaker 2: So if we want to get nutrients, if we want 503 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:37,600 Speaker 2: to get immune cells to a sight of injury, we 504 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:40,480 Speaker 2: open up those blood vessels and we can send all 505 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:44,080 Speaker 2: those messengers through the problem is if your blood vessels 506 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:47,160 Speaker 2: are left open, well, we don't get blood and venus 507 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:50,400 Speaker 2: return back to our brain and our heart. So this 508 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:55,879 Speaker 2: piece is what connects one of the many ways POTS, 509 00:26:56,000 --> 00:27:00,920 Speaker 2: this form of dysautonomia and mass altivation, cinder and histamines. 510 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:04,240 Speaker 2: If someone is in a hot shower, suddenly feel dizzy, 511 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:06,840 Speaker 2: look down at their legs and notice there's like red 512 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:10,360 Speaker 2: splotches on their legs, and then they notice their heart 513 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:13,200 Speaker 2: starts to pound and they're also holding onto the walls. 514 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:16,200 Speaker 2: What happens is in this instance is that both histamines 515 00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:20,720 Speaker 2: and heat are vasodilators. So what happens is your blood 516 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:24,679 Speaker 2: is dropping down causing blood pooling in your legs, and 517 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:27,359 Speaker 2: then your heart and your brain are going can you 518 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,120 Speaker 2: send some blood up here, please, And so your heart 519 00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:33,280 Speaker 2: starts pounding really fast. You feel the dizziness because there's 520 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:36,440 Speaker 2: not enough blood flow to your brain, and that's where 521 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:40,719 Speaker 2: that symptom set happens. The other kind of component that 522 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 2: ties those two together is that POTS is a form 523 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:51,200 Speaker 2: of dis automomia. And this is really really hard concept 524 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:55,360 Speaker 2: for people. Can you explain why, Lauren, if your heart 525 00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:56,880 Speaker 2: was pounding out of your chest, what kind of doctor 526 00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:57,480 Speaker 2: would you go to? 527 00:27:58,160 --> 00:27:59,440 Speaker 4: I go to the cardiologists. 528 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:01,480 Speaker 2: Do you go to a car bologists. Pots is a 529 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:04,560 Speaker 2: form of dysautonomia that means the dysfunction of the autonomic 530 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:09,119 Speaker 2: nervous system. So it's coming from your brain and your nerves. 531 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,200 Speaker 2: It's not coming from your heart. That's the hard part 532 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:16,480 Speaker 2: with histamine issues, right if you're having all these insomnia symptoms, 533 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,440 Speaker 2: if you're having migraines, you're going to go to a neurologist. 534 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:23,480 Speaker 2: The problem with histamines issues and issues like pods is 535 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:26,800 Speaker 2: that the symptoms don't come from the system that you expect, 536 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:29,960 Speaker 2: and that's why they're so challenging to diagnose. 537 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:34,119 Speaker 5: So many patients are disbelieved because they come in and 538 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:34,680 Speaker 5: they have all. 539 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:36,199 Speaker 4: These complaints, but they look fine. 540 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 1: It took Michelle years to get diagnosed, and it was 541 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 1: like the symptoms built over time, almost like a snowball 542 00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:47,320 Speaker 1: gaining speed down a hill. Is that common? 543 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,640 Speaker 5: So we know that there must be some genetic or 544 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:55,520 Speaker 5: epigenetic phenomena happening. What we think happens is that there's 545 00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:59,720 Speaker 5: a series of events that over time makes it worse. 546 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,800 Speaker 5: Could be a trauma of some kind, could be infection, 547 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:08,959 Speaker 5: you know, severe strep throats, lime disease, living in mold 548 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:12,880 Speaker 5: and Usually it's an escalation of symptoms with each trigger, 549 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:14,840 Speaker 5: and so over time people get worse and worse. 550 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 4: Most of the patients that. 551 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:19,600 Speaker 5: I see really didn't go into the major flair until 552 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:21,240 Speaker 5: later in life. 553 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 1: And that's exactly what happened for Michelle. Once you knew 554 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:30,480 Speaker 1: that you were dealing with mcast, how did you go 555 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:35,720 Speaker 1: about getting treatment? How did you go about learning to 556 00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:36,760 Speaker 1: heal yourself? 557 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:40,000 Speaker 2: So once I figured out those three pieces for me, MCAST, 558 00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 2: pots and hypermobility, I wanted to understand what were people 559 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:48,040 Speaker 2: experiencing and talking to practitioners. Then I started to put 560 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:53,400 Speaker 2: together the new battle plan and that anti histem medications, 561 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:57,360 Speaker 2: antihistamine supplements. It included dropping a lot of the supplements 562 00:29:57,400 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 2: that I may have reacted to in the past, dropping 563 00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 2: an detox protocols, no fonsaunas, nothing that would push detoxification 564 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,320 Speaker 2: for me. And then it also took reconditioning my body 565 00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:09,640 Speaker 2: and reconditioning my brain. 566 00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:12,360 Speaker 3: I think it was just like a light bulb went 567 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:14,520 Speaker 3: off and she was like finally, like I get it now, 568 00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:17,800 Speaker 3: you know. That's the thing is Michelle is a dietitian, 569 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:20,920 Speaker 3: but really she's more of a scientist than anything. And 570 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 3: so she was like, Okay, now that I understand the 571 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:26,280 Speaker 3: mechanisms of what's happening, I can fix it. 572 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 5: The standard first step is maybe using some kind of antihistamine. 573 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:32,800 Speaker 5: There are lots of patients where histamine is not an 574 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:35,280 Speaker 5: issue for them, but there are enough people who get 575 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,960 Speaker 5: some benefit from antihistamines that that's usually, you know, kind of. 576 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:39,600 Speaker 4: The first step. 577 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 5: One of the exciting things is we just published on 578 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:45,320 Speaker 5: the use of GLP one receptor agonists in the use 579 00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 5: of mascinell activation syndrome. Those are weightless drugs, but at 580 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 5: low dose microdosing, they have massive stabilizing properties, and so 581 00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:57,040 Speaker 5: that's become like a really interesting, almost miraculous treatment for 582 00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 5: some patients. 583 00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:05,680 Speaker 1: Your sister told me that she really emphasizes hope as 584 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:09,720 Speaker 1: one of the pillars of her teaching. Why is that 585 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:13,600 Speaker 1: so in keeping with your little sister and what are 586 00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:16,680 Speaker 1: you most proud of her in terms of how she's 587 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 1: handled her diagnosis and stepped into her advocacy. 588 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:25,000 Speaker 3: I don't think anyone else could do what she did. 589 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:29,520 Speaker 3: You know, hope is especially when you're dealing with a 590 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:33,480 Speaker 3: chronic condition like this, it's exhausting. But she wants people 591 00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:37,000 Speaker 3: to know there is a way to live, be at 592 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:39,680 Speaker 3: peace with it, and a way to support yourself, and 593 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:42,720 Speaker 3: there are other people out there that are experiencing the 594 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:46,560 Speaker 3: same thing, and that you're not alone and one bad 595 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:48,880 Speaker 3: day doesn't have to define your whole week or your 596 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:51,720 Speaker 3: whole month. More than anything, I think, hope is what 597 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:53,240 Speaker 3: Michelle gives people. 598 00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 1: Only a few years out from learning about mcass, Michelle 599 00:31:57,520 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 1: has made it her mission to help others combat this 600 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:04,280 Speaker 1: emptoms and find ways to live life again. You've turned 601 00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:08,680 Speaker 1: your personal experience into your work. In twenty twenty four, 602 00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 1: you launched the Highly Sensitive Body Hub. What inspired you 603 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:17,240 Speaker 1: to create it and what do you hope people will 604 00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:17,800 Speaker 1: find there? 605 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:23,600 Speaker 2: Unlike any other condition in the world, education about these 606 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:28,560 Speaker 2: syndromes and conditions is health changing. These are nervous system 607 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:34,840 Speaker 2: based conditions, so fear drives these conditions, so understanding heals 608 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:37,240 Speaker 2: them in some way. I found that one of the 609 00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:41,440 Speaker 2: most liberating moments outside of this mindset change was understanding 610 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:44,240 Speaker 2: I have to understand in order to heal. So what 611 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:46,800 Speaker 2: I did with the Highly Sensitive Body Hub I kind 612 00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:51,040 Speaker 2: of cluster hypermobility, long covid mass selutivation syndrome d pots 613 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:54,200 Speaker 2: as people living in highly sensitive bodies. So I created 614 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:57,240 Speaker 2: the Highly Sensitive Body Hub with thirteen other incredible practitioners 615 00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:01,160 Speaker 2: who came in and it's just video education and how 616 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:04,720 Speaker 2: do we draw those tools together, draw the understanding together. 617 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:09,040 Speaker 2: And they are just tangible strategies using videos, handouts. There's herbalism, 618 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:12,720 Speaker 2: there's supplements, there's food strategies, and a lot of nervous 619 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:16,600 Speaker 2: system strategies as well exercise strategies. I always say, living 620 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:19,440 Speaker 2: in a highly sensitive body is like playing checkers. When 621 00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:22,880 Speaker 2: your body is playing chess. You just have to learn 622 00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:26,120 Speaker 2: the game. And once you learn the game, your life 623 00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:26,920 Speaker 2: is completely different. 624 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:32,360 Speaker 1: What are you most excited about and hopeful for in 625 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:36,840 Speaker 1: terms of future treatment and research with mcasts. 626 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:41,120 Speaker 2: We're starting to get research about this triad MCAST pots 627 00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:45,280 Speaker 2: and hypermobility, and it is so invigorating to understand the 628 00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:49,400 Speaker 2: connection between the connective tissue and the nervous system and 629 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:51,960 Speaker 2: the immune system. People are really starting to understand that 630 00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:54,920 Speaker 2: MCAST is so much more than just seasonal allergies. It's 631 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:56,800 Speaker 2: so much more than that anti histamine pill. 632 00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:00,560 Speaker 1: Doctor Dempsey also sees hope in the future comes to 633 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:02,920 Speaker 1: the further understanding of mcasts. 634 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:06,160 Speaker 5: We're really just at the tip of the iceberg. We 635 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:09,120 Speaker 5: have so much more to learn, and I think that's good, right. 636 00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:10,880 Speaker 5: I think there are a lot of people suffering and 637 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:14,040 Speaker 5: it feels overwhelming, like we're never going to get anywhere. 638 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:17,680 Speaker 5: And what's exciting to me is that the conversation is 639 00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:22,000 Speaker 5: starting to grow, the government is starting to become interested, 640 00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:25,440 Speaker 5: the various research centers are starting. 641 00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:26,080 Speaker 4: To become interested. 642 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:30,200 Speaker 5: Whether they're studying MCAST directly or they're studying the comorbidities, 643 00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:31,560 Speaker 5: it doesn't matter to me. 644 00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:33,520 Speaker 4: That's really exciting, and I think. 645 00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:37,160 Speaker 5: There are a lot of new technologies, new treatments like 646 00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:41,680 Speaker 5: GLP one that is changing things for patients beyond what 647 00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:44,120 Speaker 5: we could have imagined. So I think this is an 648 00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:46,879 Speaker 5: exciting time and I think the next two years we're 649 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:49,960 Speaker 5: going to have better treatments, better ways to diagnose. And 650 00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:51,759 Speaker 5: for me, that's the name of the game. We just 651 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:53,680 Speaker 5: got to keep at this to help as many people 652 00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:54,239 Speaker 5: as we can. 653 00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:55,799 Speaker 3: It's such a. 654 00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:58,920 Speaker 2: Corny thing that everyone says, but healing is not linear, 655 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:04,080 Speaker 2: and sometimes your symptoms will be very bad and we're 656 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:06,239 Speaker 2: going to ride those symptoms and then there will be 657 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:08,640 Speaker 2: a day where you will forget that those symptoms were 658 00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:12,080 Speaker 2: so bad, and forget how it was for patients. 659 00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:14,759 Speaker 5: What I always want to emphasize is that they know 660 00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:18,319 Speaker 5: themselves if they know there's something wrong, but they're not 661 00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:22,600 Speaker 5: being validated, the medical professionals are not believing them. 662 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:23,319 Speaker 4: Move on. 663 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:27,319 Speaker 3: No one knows you like you know you. So she 664 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:29,799 Speaker 3: knew there was something wrong, and she was just like, no, 665 00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:32,200 Speaker 3: I don't accept that. I don't accept that there's nothing 666 00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:33,319 Speaker 3: that can be done about it. 667 00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:38,840 Speaker 2: There is not one person living with complex chronic illness 668 00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:41,440 Speaker 2: who I do not have one hundred percent hope for. 669 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:45,680 Speaker 1: What would you say if you could travel back in 670 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:49,160 Speaker 1: time and look into the face of the woman who 671 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:51,799 Speaker 1: was crawling five blocks to get to urgent. 672 00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:58,040 Speaker 2: Care she did exactly what she needed to do. I 673 00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:00,000 Speaker 2: would say like, I'm very proud of you that you 674 00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:02,799 Speaker 2: made it to the urgent care of this day, and 675 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:07,160 Speaker 2: I would just say, like always, Michelle, believe yourself over 676 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:09,120 Speaker 2: anyone else. If you can make it through this, which 677 00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:11,359 Speaker 2: I know you will, we'll be able to help other 678 00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:13,880 Speaker 2: thousands of people. So it'll be worth it. I promise 679 00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:19,080 Speaker 2: it'll be worth it. My name is Michelle Shapiro and 680 00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:25,160 Speaker 2: it took me seventeen years of symptoms before realizing that 681 00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:27,799 Speaker 2: I had mass sele extivation syndrome MCAS. 682 00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:33,080 Speaker 1: You can follow Michelle on social media at Michelle Shapiro 683 00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:37,440 Speaker 1: RD and on her website Michelle Shapiro RD dot com. 684 00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:40,840 Speaker 1: Doctor Tanya Dempsey can be found on Instagram at doctor 685 00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:46,520 Speaker 1: Tanya Dempsey MD and online at doctor Tanya Dempsey dot com. 686 00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:50,560 Speaker 1: Coming up on next week's episode of Symptomatic, Sarah Marshall 687 00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:53,160 Speaker 1: knew from only a few months under her fourth daughter 688 00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:57,320 Speaker 1: Phoebe's life, that's something was wrong. By the time Phoebe 689 00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,720 Speaker 1: was six, Sarah began to fear for her daughter life. 690 00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:06,279 Speaker 6: She was not in her seatbelt, literally like contorting and writhing, 691 00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:10,080 Speaker 6: and she just clearly could not get comfortable and the 692 00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:13,440 Speaker 6: pain was so severe, and I remember her thanking me 693 00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:17,719 Speaker 6: for taking care of her, as if she thought she 694 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:18,600 Speaker 6: was gonna die. 695 00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:23,319 Speaker 1: Phoebe underwent countless tests, multiple surgeries, and was in and 696 00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:26,400 Speaker 1: out of the hospital for years. Her health was declining 697 00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:29,600 Speaker 1: and her medical team could not tell them what was wrong. 698 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:32,239 Speaker 7: You know, at that age, specifically, you see doctors as 699 00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:35,839 Speaker 7: like literally your heroes. They're supposed to know everything, like 700 00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:38,799 Speaker 7: they are the smartest of the smartest, and so when 701 00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:42,360 Speaker 7: people were like, oh, I don't know, that was like, oh, 702 00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:43,640 Speaker 7: what do you mean you don't know? 703 00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:47,279 Speaker 1: As always, we would love to hear from you. Send 704 00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:50,040 Speaker 1: us your thoughts on this episode, or share a medical 705 00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:54,200 Speaker 1: mystery of your own at Symptomatic at iHeartMedia dot com 706 00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:59,120 Speaker 1: and please rate and review Symptomatic wherever you get your podcasts. 707 00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:02,760 Speaker 1: We'll see you next time and until then, be well. 708 00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:09,120 Speaker 1: Symptomatic a medical mystery podcast, is a production of iHeartMedia's 709 00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:14,440 Speaker 1: Ruby Studio. Our show is hosted by me Lauren Bright Pacheco. 710 00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:18,719 Speaker 1: Our executive producers are James Foster, Matt Romano, and myself. 711 00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:24,640 Speaker 1: Our supervising producers are Ryan Ovadia, Haley Aliah Erickson, and 712 00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:29,520 Speaker 1: Daniel Ainsworth. This episode was written by Haley Aliah Erickson 713 00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:32,400 Speaker 1: and edited by Samuel Richardson.