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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson.

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Speaker 2: I'm a journalist who's spent the last twenty five years

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Speaker 2: writing about true crime.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Paul Holmes, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 3: works some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 2: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 2: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 3: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 3: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 2: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 2: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 4: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is Buried Bones.

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Speaker 4: Hi, Paul, Hey, Kate.

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Speaker 1: This is our first show, absolutely for a show.

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Speaker 4: Can you believe it?

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Speaker 2: After all the planning, it took forever, it feels like,

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Speaker 2: But I'm so excited finally to be here with you.

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Speaker 1: This is so wonderful.

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Speaker 4: It's going to be a lot of fun.

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Speaker 2: So you and I were together at Crime Con UK

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Speaker 2: a while ago, and you and I sat down for

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Speaker 2: a long time and chatted and overcomes a waiter and

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Speaker 2: he puts down this glass in front of you and

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Speaker 2: I look at it, and you said it's bourbon and said,

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Speaker 2: have a sip because I had never really had bourbon,

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Speaker 2: and I had a sip. I do not like bourbon,

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Speaker 2: and I need to know if this is a deal

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Speaker 2: breaker for you or not in this show.

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Speaker 4: I think we will be just fine.

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Speaker 3: I'm pretty colorant of the fact that you don't like

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Speaker 3: bourbon right now, but I'm going to work on you

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Speaker 3: right now.

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Speaker 2: Well, in my head, I've decided that if I ever

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Speaker 2: get bottles of Bourbon, I'm going to ship him to Colorado.

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Speaker 2: And if you get anything like Hardsider, you could ship

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Speaker 2: it to me in Texas.

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Speaker 4: And that sounds like a deal.

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Speaker 2: And the other thing UK Crime con will forever be

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Speaker 2: cemented in my brain because you remember, we were sitting

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Speaker 2: there chatting and all of a sudden, the worst fire

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Speaker 2: alarm in the history of fire alarms went off at

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Speaker 2: this hotel, and we walked outside and everybody had to evacuate,

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Speaker 2: which has never happened to me before. So we all

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Speaker 2: pile outside, and all of these true crime fans who

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Speaker 2: really love Paul, they're surrounding you, and everybody's looking to

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Speaker 2: you for.

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Speaker 1: Like, what the hell's going on?

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Speaker 2: And you say I love this because you say, well, listen,

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Speaker 2: if this were a bombing, we would have seen even

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Speaker 2: in the UK, we would have seen this tactical team

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Speaker 2: and that tactical team, And I thought, man, am I

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Speaker 2: in the right place with Paul Holtz?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And we were literally talking about this show when

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Speaker 3: you know, the fire alarm goes off and the fire

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Speaker 3: trucks are pulling up. So we really got off to

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Speaker 3: quite the start on the concept of this thing.

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Speaker 1: I felt very safe.

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Speaker 2: This is definitely the person you want to be around

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Speaker 2: with all hellas regularly, Thank goodness. It was just sort

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Speaker 2: of like a hannicle malfunction. And we had a lovely

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Speaker 2: time at the rest of crime Con and I think

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Speaker 2: that'll that'll be the start of a beautiful friendship.

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Speaker 1: So the show.

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Speaker 2: Let's talk a little bit about the show Buried Bones.

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Speaker 2: What inspired you to say yes when I called you

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Speaker 2: and said we need to do this?

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Speaker 1: Where did that come from?

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, you had reached out to me for

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Speaker 3: your other podcast, Wicked Words about doing a historic crime,

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Speaker 3: you know, and I've been doing cold cases that go

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Speaker 3: all the way back into the nineteen sixties. Really is

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Speaker 3: the oldest ones that I would tackle. But you work

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Speaker 3: cases that are so much older and so when I'm

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Speaker 3: looking at my files, I only had one that I

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Speaker 3: would characterize as being a historic crime, and that was

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Speaker 3: Bessie Ferguson from nineteen twenty four, which just was crazy

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Speaker 3: that you had an actual chapter in your book about

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Speaker 3: that crime.

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Speaker 2: So it was meant to be, I think, And that

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Speaker 2: was a wonderful episode on Wicked Words because you had

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Speaker 2: some theories that I had not thought of with Bessie Ferguson,

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Speaker 2: and I had done so much research on that case.

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Speaker 2: So that's when the little light bulb went off of

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Speaker 2: my head, Ding Ding. Paul Hols is someone I should

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Speaker 2: do a show with. So I I'm forever grateful that

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Speaker 2: you said yes.

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Speaker 3: And I think you know, from my perspective, you had

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Speaker 3: so much information about the case I had never heard of.

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Speaker 3: So now I'm weighing all these new details and this

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Speaker 3: is where now when we get to Buried Bones, I'm

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Speaker 3: looking forward to hearing all the information you can provide

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Speaker 3: on these cases and then be able to dissect them well.

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Speaker 2: And I'll tell you, I'm intimidated by some of the

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Speaker 2: medical things that I run into. I run into terms

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Speaker 2: like nervous prostration and what does that even mean? And

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Speaker 2: you might not necessarily know what that means, but together

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Speaker 2: we can figure out whether some of these cases that

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Speaker 2: I bring to you were done well, done poorly. What

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Speaker 2: would we do now in the twenty first century? What

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Speaker 2: did they do then? So that's what makes us exciting.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's what's going to be my challenge is,

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Speaker 3: you know, try to figure out what was being done

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Speaker 3: back on these cases that are historical, both from investigative

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Speaker 3: techniques as well as what the forensic science capabilities were,

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Speaker 3: and be able to address what they did then and

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Speaker 3: then see, well, how could these cases be approach today,

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Speaker 3: either investigatively or with modern technology.

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Speaker 2: Do you have a favorite time period in history? I

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Speaker 2: ask people this all the time. Mine's the American Revolutionary

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Speaker 2: where I love that time period just reading about it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I would agree, going back into maybe the eighteen hundreds,

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Speaker 3: it still seems like it's a relevant timeframe that I

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Speaker 3: can relate to. When it gets older than that, then

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Speaker 3: it's now really getting to where it's just so far

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Speaker 3: back in time. Things have changed so much since then

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Speaker 3: that I don't relate to those older times as well.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to make you relate to them, though. I'm

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Speaker 1: going to introduce you to people.

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Speaker 2: I promise I'm going to introduce you to people, and

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Speaker 2: you're going to think, while these people really need justice,

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Speaker 2: or boy, the results in this case were not well done,

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Speaker 2: or the investigators did a wonderful job considering what they

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Speaker 2: were given.

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Speaker 1: So I'm excited to jump into this.

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Speaker 3: And I will be introducing you to the bourbon idea

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Speaker 3: over and over and over again.

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Speaker 4: How's that.

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Speaker 2: It's a hard note over and over, but you could

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Speaker 2: keep trying for sure? Yes, Okay, let's set the scene

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Speaker 2: for this story. So this story takes place in nineteen

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Speaker 2: hundred in Houston, Texas, and you work cases in Texas

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Speaker 2: right with the TV series.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I've worked cases in Texas both previously

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Speaker 3: for the Oxygen Network as well as currently with HLN

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Speaker 3: and trying to see if I can help families get

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Speaker 3: an answer on these cases. Some of them are older

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Speaker 3: cases and some of them are recent cases.

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Speaker 2: You know, people are fascinated with Texas as far as

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Speaker 2: crime goes. It just seems like everything in Texas happens

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Speaker 2: bigger and it's so much more dramatic. And I know

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Speaker 2: that coming to Texas can be interesting for investigators working

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Speaker 2: with local law enforcement.

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Speaker 1: You know, this state has, for better or for worse, such.

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Speaker 2: A deep history, and a big part of that history,

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Speaker 2: of course, happens at the turn of the century. And

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Speaker 2: one of the things that I want to talk about

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Speaker 2: is when we set the scene in history, because I'm

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Speaker 2: a big history writer. I love talking about where we are,

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Speaker 2: what people are doing. And this is a story that

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Speaker 2: actually splits between Texas and Manhattan. And in nineteen hundred,

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Speaker 2: you just can't get any more different. We're in Gilded

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Speaker 2: Age New York where Boss Tweed with diamond pendants and

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Speaker 2: a lot of corrupt politicians, and Texas was booming more

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Speaker 2: with oil and with cattle. So the victim in this case,

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Speaker 2: because I'll have a spoiler here, the victim is a

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Speaker 2: man named William Marsh Rice, and he would become the

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Speaker 2: founder of one of the most renowned universities in the country,

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Speaker 2: which is Rice University, which is in Houston.

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Speaker 1: And the story of that is.

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Speaker 2: So fascinating because a lot of people don't know that

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Speaker 2: Rice almost didn't happen because of the death of William

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Speaker 2: Marsh Rice. And the big question that I need you

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Speaker 2: to help me answer is was William Marsh Rice murdered

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Speaker 2: or did he die naturally? Were people in prison rightfully

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Speaker 2: or did he die of natural causes? So hopefully you

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Speaker 2: can help me figure that out.

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Speaker 4: We'll see what details you have.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So I'll tell you a little bit about William

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Speaker 2: marsh Rice, because I'm assuming when you jump into a case,

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Speaker 2: the first thing you need to know about is the victim.

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Speaker 2: Is that victimology. Sometimes I get mixed up with the terms.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that is victimology to different people, it means different things.

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Speaker 3: But for me, it's really understanding as much as I

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Speaker 3: can about the victim, who the person was, their social circles,

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Speaker 3: and ultimately anything within their life that could contribute to

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Speaker 3: a motive for somebody to come and hurt them or

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Speaker 3: kill them.

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Speaker 1: Well, I can tell you straight away the motive here

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Speaker 1: is money.

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Speaker 2: So William marsh Rice was born in Massachusetts, and he

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Speaker 2: was born in poverty, and he started working at a

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Speaker 2: grocery store when he was fifteen, and he had such

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Speaker 2: incredible business sense that by the time he was twenty

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Speaker 2: two he owned the grocery store now and he went

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Speaker 2: on to invest in property in land, in cattle, and

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Speaker 2: he eventually accumulated millions and millions and millions of dollars

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Speaker 2: in the nineteen hundreds, in late eighteen hundreds, early nineteen hundreds,

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Speaker 2: which is pretty incredible.

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Speaker 3: Now, is he doing that all in Massachusetts or Manhattan

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Speaker 3: or is this oiled in Texas?

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Speaker 2: He decided to go down to Texas smartly because things

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Speaker 2: were moving west and he knew that he could buy

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Speaker 2: up a lot of property.

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Speaker 1: That was a good question.

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Speaker 2: He could buy up a lot of property, and he

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Speaker 2: started investing in mills on rivers and in oil wells,

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Speaker 2: and it just accumulated money very very quickly.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and and Texas black gold was everything at this

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Speaker 3: time frame, right.

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Speaker 2: You're right, And so there was a lot of money

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Speaker 2: to be had. He did not have a particularly lavish lifestyle,

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Speaker 2: but like a lot of successful businessmen, he was pretty

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Speaker 2: hard nosed.

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Speaker 1: He was no nonsense, and.

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Speaker 2: That created a lot of acrimony between him and other

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Speaker 2: business people. So you would think that's the way we're

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Speaker 2: going to go, right, that somebody was targeting him because

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Speaker 2: of bad business dealings.

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Speaker 1: That wouldn't be unusual, right.

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Speaker 3: No, And then that really goes towards victimology. Understanding him

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Speaker 3: as a bit businessman and knowing that he could have

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Speaker 3: pissed people off, and most certainly with the money that

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Speaker 3: he has, some of those people could have come after him.

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Speaker 3: So this now is like the first check that I

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Speaker 3: have as okay, here's a possible motive.

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Speaker 2: So he gets married, they do not have children, and

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Speaker 2: his first wife dies at age thirty one, which seems

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Speaker 2: young to me, but in the late eighteen hundreds, there

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Speaker 2: were a lot of different reasons why somebody could die

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Speaker 2: at that age.

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Speaker 3: That's right, with the lack of antibiotics, various diseases, not

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Speaker 3: being able to address some of the genetic issues that people.

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Speaker 4: Are born with.

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Speaker 3: So for sure you had a lot of people dying

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Speaker 3: much younger then than today.

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Speaker 2: So he kept a house in Houston, but he wanted

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Speaker 2: to move to New York. He wanted that sort of

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Speaker 2: image Gilded Age New York. So he bought an apartment

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Speaker 2: on Madison Avenue, which was a very wealthy area and

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Speaker 2: still is, and it was a very huge place, and

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Speaker 2: he accumulated a lot of staff, including a valet. So

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Speaker 2: I'm going to quiz you, do you know the difference

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Speaker 2: between a butler and a valet, because I didn't.

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Speaker 3: No, you know, and when you said valets, of course

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Speaker 3: I think in hotel valets who are responsible for parking

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Speaker 3: or retrieving your vehicles at the hotel. So I'm going

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Speaker 3: to assume that a valet, a personal valet, is somebody

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Speaker 3: that is responsible for driving. Well, I mean we're talking

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Speaker 3: nineteen hundred, so now this is somebody who's probably it's

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Speaker 3: horse and carriage with Rice, right, this is before the

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Speaker 3: model TA is coming.

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Speaker 1: Out, correct.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So a valet in the late eighteen hundreds, early

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Speaker 2: nineteen hundreds would have been someone who was sort of

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Speaker 2: the personal manservant for the man of the house, someone

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Speaker 2: who address him, would drive him everywhere all of that,

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Speaker 2: And a butler was someone who would supervise the entire

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Speaker 2: staff of a house. I certainly did not understand the

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Speaker 2: nuances between the two before I.

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Speaker 1: Started with this story.

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Speaker 3: I had no clue for me. The butler is, in

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Speaker 3: my mind, was what you just described as the job

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Speaker 3: descriptions of the valet. The idea of needing somebody to

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Speaker 3: dress you that just doesn't sit right with me. You

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Speaker 3: don't want that, you know, not at all.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So the valet becomes very important later on. What

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Speaker 2: is also important later on is that William marsh Rice

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Speaker 2: absolutely declares that he lives in New York. He visits Texas,

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Speaker 2: but his residence is in New York. He marries a

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Speaker 2: second time after his wife dies.

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Speaker 1: This is not a good marriage.

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Speaker 2: She is wealthy, but not as wealthy as he is,

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Speaker 2: and as they progress an age, she's in her early eighties,

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Speaker 2: he's in his mid eighties, and she starts to consult

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Speaker 2: a divorce attorney without his knowing it. He is kind

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Speaker 2: of a crotchety old man. He's a little Howard Hughes.

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Speaker 2: He has peculiar tastes. He eats only eggs and bullion,

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Speaker 2: which actually sounds pretty good to me. But you know,

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Speaker 2: he's eccentric. I guess is that what you would say, eccentric?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I'm surprised at his age. You're talking

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Speaker 3: about somebody in nineteen hundred is in their mid eighties.

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Speaker 2: But top notch healthcare, Right, he had the money to

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Speaker 2: do whatever was available. Then sure, I don't think it's leeches,

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Speaker 2: but you're right, that seems like a really advanced age.

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Speaker 2: But he did have all the advantages of somebody who

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Speaker 2: was affluent at that time period, and his wife was

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Speaker 2: also that age. So she consults a divorce attorney he

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Speaker 2: has no idea. She changes her will, she's really mad

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Speaker 2: at him, and she leaves all of her estate to

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Speaker 2: her relatives.

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Speaker 1: She says, we live in Texas. Now, why does that matter?

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Speaker 2: Because Texas was a common property state, right, so if

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Speaker 2: they divorced, she would get half of everything they accrued,

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Speaker 2: all of the land, all the houses achred when they

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Speaker 2: were married.

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Speaker 1: So if she died and it was.

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Speaker 2: Proven that he lived in Texas at the time of

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Speaker 2: her death, then her relatives would get fifty percent of

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Speaker 2: his estate.

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Speaker 1: Isn't that pretty cold hearted?

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Speaker 2: That's a really interesting way to screw your husband over.

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Speaker 3: But it's very significant. How long were they married at

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Speaker 3: this point.

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Speaker 1: Seven or eight years, not very long. Never a good

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Speaker 1: marriage though.

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Speaker 2: It sounded like she struggled with mental health issues and

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Speaker 2: probably he did too, I imagine, So it was very

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Speaker 2: acrimonious from the beginning, and so he doesn't know any

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Speaker 2: of this.

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Speaker 1: She dies of natural causes.

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Speaker 2: This is not the victim here, he finds out, and

303
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Speaker 2: of course is infuriated and thus launches a huge lawsuit

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Speaker 2: against her family, who is now saying, give me fifty

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Speaker 2: percent of what you have accrued during this marriage, which

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Speaker 2: was a significant amount during the marriage, he had double, triple,

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Speaker 2: quadruple the amount of assets that he had. He had

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Speaker 2: started investing in oil wells and even more, and he

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Speaker 2: just had an incredible amount of money. I think it

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Speaker 2: was the equivalent of twenty five to thirty million dollars today. Okay,

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Speaker 2: now here's where William Marsh where things get complicated for him.

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Speaker 2: What he had done and what his wife before she died,

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Speaker 2: had agreed to was he was going to give a

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Speaker 2: small amount of money to some of his family members.

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Speaker 2: The wife was going to take much of it, but

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Speaker 2: the majority of this also was going to go to

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Speaker 2: an institute in his name that he wanted called the

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Speaker 2: William m Rice Institute for the Advancement of Literature, Science,

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Speaker 2: and Art. And he had always dreamed about having a

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Speaker 2: free institution of higher learning for people in Texas. He

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Speaker 2: initially actually wanted to open up an orphanage and then

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Speaker 2: decided for whatever reason that that was not going to happen,

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Speaker 2: and so he wanted to open up a university that

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Speaker 2: would be free of tuition and they would offer scholarships.

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Speaker 3: Okay, and this is his way of really setting his legacy.

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Speaker 3: So after he's gone, his name will live on, So.

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Speaker 2: We have a caveat here that is pretty problematic. There's

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Speaker 2: controversy over Rice because before he died, he wrote into

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Speaker 2: his will that this university would be higher education for

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Speaker 2: whites only, which is not surprising for the time period,

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Speaker 2: but it's still horrible and it's a thing that Rice

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Speaker 2: University to this day has to reckon with and they are.

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Speaker 2: So this is sort of the imperfect victim in a way.

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Speaker 1: This is someone who we know.

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Speaker 2: He's going to die, it's going to happen soon, and

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Speaker 2: he's got somebody who's fallible.

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Speaker 1: But ultimately, as.

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Speaker 2: We move forward in the story, we see that there

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Speaker 2: are a lot of things aligned against him.

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Speaker 4: At least at this point.

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Speaker 3: Right now, I'm hearing maybe second and third possible motives

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Speaker 3: with the changing of the will, the wife's family now

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Speaker 3: going after him. He's in turn suing the family, so

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Speaker 3: you have a tit for tat going on.

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Speaker 4: Again.

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Speaker 3: These are just little boxes next to these possible motives

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Speaker 3: that I'm making a list on to see, Okay, which

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Speaker 3: one seems to be the most likely based on the

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Speaker 3: circumstances as we move.

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Speaker 2: Forward often come into play, and murder cases I can't

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Speaker 2: imagine they don't they must.

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Speaker 3: Well, of course, there's plenty of cases out there in which,

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Speaker 3: during homicide investigations, financial assets are the core to the

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Speaker 3: reason the person was killed. Wills are a part of it.

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Speaker 3: I haven't had a case in which the will was

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Speaker 3: specifically the reason why somebody was killed, but there are

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Speaker 3: more commonly cases life insurance being a beneficiary of the

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Speaker 3: life insurance.

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Speaker 4: That's what you see.

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Speaker 3: Those are the easy things for people to set up

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Speaker 3: and change names and beneficiaries, and those are frequently why

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Speaker 3: in modern cases.

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Speaker 4: Why people are killed from a financial standpoint.

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Speaker 2: Well, we now have to get some attorneys involved. And

365
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Speaker 2: Rice decides to hire an attorney name Captain James Baker,

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Speaker 2: who was a really well known attorney and very very right.

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Speaker 1: So Rice hires him to defend him.

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Speaker 2: In this case, Rice's wife's family hires a guy named

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Speaker 2: Albert Patrick. Now he is the key player. There's two

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Speaker 2: of them. One is the valet and one is Albert Patrick.

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Speaker 2: Albert Patrick is sleazy. There's really no other way to

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Speaker 2: describe it. He's very sleazy, and it doesn't start out

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Speaker 2: to be sleazy this whole thing. He was hired specifically

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Speaker 2: to prove that Rice really did declare his residency in

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Speaker 2: Texas so that this community property law could kick in

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Speaker 2: and they could take half the money he is insisting,

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Speaker 2: and his will says that he considers his home to

378
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Speaker 2: be in New York. So Albert Patrick is hired by

379
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Speaker 2: the family to figure things out. Albert Patrick cannot prove

380
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Speaker 2: anything as of now, even though he meets Rice. They

381
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Speaker 2: have a discussion. I don't know, maybe you have some ideas.

382
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Speaker 2: How would you go about this?

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Speaker 1: Now? Would you find.

384
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Speaker 2: Bills or I don't know how you would prove that

385
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Speaker 2: a person spends more time in one state than another state.

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Speaker 3: Well, this ends up really kicking in investigation one oh

387
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Speaker 3: one in terms of, of course the paper trail, property ownership,

388
00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:03,800
Speaker 3: paper trail. But it's going to be somebody like Rice

389
00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:07,200
Speaker 3: who has residents in two different states. It is now

390
00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:10,560
Speaker 3: going to be tracking down witnesses. How often are you

391
00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:13,800
Speaker 3: seeing Rice at this property? And if you get a

392
00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:17,840
Speaker 3: preponderance of witnesses saying he's in New York versus Texas,

393
00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:20,159
Speaker 3: those are statements that you can use to support that

394
00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:22,760
Speaker 3: he is a resident of New York or he's a

395
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Speaker 3: resident of Texas.

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Speaker 2: So Albert Patrick is running into a brick wall because

397
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Speaker 2: he can't find he's seeing consistently that Rice is in

398
00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:33,920
Speaker 2: New York and he's very rarely in Texas. He's only

399
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Speaker 2: there every once in a while to check in on

400
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Speaker 2: some of his property.

401
00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:38,480
Speaker 1: But he really prefers to be in New York.

402
00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:42,520
Speaker 2: And so Albert Patrick, the attorney, decides that he wants

403
00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:45,520
Speaker 2: to get close to someone who is close to Rice,

404
00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:49,040
Speaker 2: and that would be a man named Charles Jones. And

405
00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:52,520
Speaker 2: Charles was Rice's twenty three year old valet. He had

406
00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:54,760
Speaker 2: been with him for three or four years. He was

407
00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:58,560
Speaker 2: obviously physically close with Rice, and Rice seemed to really

408
00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:01,280
Speaker 2: like Jones for some of his education.

409
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Speaker 1: So Albert Patrick targets him. Why would that happen?

410
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Speaker 3: Yeah, First, is the valet Jones. Is he traveling back

411
00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:11,119
Speaker 3: and forth with Rice between New York and Texas. He

412
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Speaker 3: is okay, so he's a consistent presence in Rice's life.

413
00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:19,520
Speaker 3: Now Patrick targeting Jones because, I mean, as we talked

414
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Speaker 3: about what the vallet's responsibilities are, I mean this is

415
00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:27,040
Speaker 3: almost at an intimate level. Jones is in the bedroom,

416
00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:33,119
Speaker 3: He's helping probably serve food. He knows Rice's day to

417
00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:37,920
Speaker 3: day activities. So Patrick possibly could be trying to get

418
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Speaker 3: dirt on Rice, or is using a proxy in order

419
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Speaker 3: to be able to have physical access to Rice.

420
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Speaker 2: And you know what's interesting is I want you to

421
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Speaker 2: tell me why people.

422
00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:52,080
Speaker 1: Choose certain personalities.

423
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Speaker 2: So Albert Patrick was a smooth talking attorney and Charles

424
00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:04,119
Speaker 2: Jones was soft spoken and meek and quiet and subservient essentially.

425
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Speaker 2: So my guess is that Albert Patrick picked up on

426
00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:09,640
Speaker 2: that fairly quickly and thought.

427
00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:11,360
Speaker 1: Maybe he could be manipulated. Does that sound right?

428
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Speaker 4: Absolutely? You know.

429
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Speaker 3: And this is where when you are trying to find

430
00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:18,680
Speaker 3: somebody who's going to do what you want to do.

431
00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:21,560
Speaker 3: You're not going to go to some hard nosed person

432
00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:24,359
Speaker 3: who's going to say no to you. You want to

433
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Speaker 3: go to somebody who recognize I mean, Jones is twenty three.

434
00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:31,480
Speaker 3: Patrick is an established attorney with a lot of resources

435
00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:35,119
Speaker 3: and probably has all the legally speak and is able

436
00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:39,000
Speaker 3: to basically sway this younger man and say this is

437
00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:42,720
Speaker 3: what I need. And the younger man feels trapped. He's

438
00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:47,160
Speaker 3: working as a servant, if you will. So that is

439
00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:51,320
Speaker 3: how he sees himself in the world. And so now

440
00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:55,920
Speaker 3: when you have a more powerful older man coming to you,

441
00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:59,960
Speaker 3: his natural instinct is to be subservient to that individual

442
00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:00,560
Speaker 3: as well.

443
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Speaker 2: And I agree with that, and I think that it

444
00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:05,320
Speaker 2: just seemed like an easy mark in a way.

445
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Speaker 1: And so Albert Patrick.

446
00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:09,080
Speaker 2: Was very smart, and we find out just how smart

447
00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:12,560
Speaker 2: he was coming up. So he goes through a series

448
00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:15,680
Speaker 2: of events that never end up well. He thinks that

449
00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:20,040
Speaker 2: it's too hard to prove definitively that marsh Rice was

450
00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:23,920
Speaker 2: actually preferring texas he preferred New York. So he convinces

451
00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:28,600
Speaker 2: Jones by telling Jones, listen, he's not paying you enough.

452
00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:32,520
Speaker 2: He's not giving you enough respect. You need more money.

453
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:35,120
Speaker 2: If we can get money from his will, I will

454
00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:36,440
Speaker 2: give you most of it.

455
00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:40,360
Speaker 3: More manipulation, right, Yep, No, absolutely, And he's playing on

456
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:42,480
Speaker 3: Jones's insecurity.

457
00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:44,840
Speaker 4: He's planting a seat. Now.

458
00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:48,320
Speaker 3: Jones is going, you're right, I do so much for

459
00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:51,280
Speaker 3: him and I'm not getting enough pay. I could do

460
00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:54,639
Speaker 3: so much better. And so he sees potentially how he

461
00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:59,200
Speaker 3: could benefit his life by going towards Patrick, becoming more

462
00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:01,040
Speaker 3: loyal to Patrick.

463
00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:03,040
Speaker 2: And I think that Rice picks up on that he

464
00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:05,840
Speaker 2: starts snapping at Jones a little bit more. I also

465
00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:09,480
Speaker 2: think Rice is not feeling well and he's not feeling well,

466
00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:14,240
Speaker 2: because Albert Patrick has convinced Jones that if they make

467
00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:18,600
Speaker 2: Rice just sick enough that because of his advanced age

468
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:21,600
Speaker 2: eighty four, the rest of his body will give out right,

469
00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:23,720
Speaker 2: so it won't be murder, but it will be moving

470
00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:27,480
Speaker 2: the process along. So they start giving him mercury in

471
00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:31,840
Speaker 2: his milk. I mean mercury as in thermometers that you're

472
00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:33,080
Speaker 2: now not allowed to break.

473
00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:33,680
Speaker 1: Mercury.

474
00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:36,919
Speaker 3: Well, mercury comes in different forms. Mercury itself is a

475
00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:41,240
Speaker 3: heavy metal, and it was used extensively and still is

476
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:47,040
Speaker 3: in some capacities, even within dental feelings today, but it

477
00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:50,719
Speaker 3: is something that is toxic to the person.

478
00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:51,679
Speaker 4: Now, it dell.

479
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,560
Speaker 3: Depends on how you ingest it. In this case, we

480
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:58,760
Speaker 3: have ingestioned orally. So now the mercury is going into

481
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:01,840
Speaker 3: the body, and if it's in milk, which is a

482
00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:05,199
Speaker 3: water based product, that's telling me that it's probably a

483
00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:10,119
Speaker 3: mercury salt. Salts are generally aqueous soluble or water soluble.

484
00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:14,160
Speaker 3: So now the mercury is able to be absorbed through

485
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:18,800
Speaker 3: the gastro intestinal track and get into Rice's body, But

486
00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:21,120
Speaker 3: if it's at a low enough level, you're not going

487
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:24,400
Speaker 3: to have the real classic acute poisoning.

488
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:26,280
Speaker 1: Symptoms flailing around exactly.

489
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:29,640
Speaker 3: It builds up in the body and there would be

490
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:34,720
Speaker 3: symptoms starting to manifest themselves over time, you know, such

491
00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:40,440
Speaker 3: as gi issues or kidney or liver problems, and then

492
00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:43,800
Speaker 3: eventually you might start to see, you know, the palsies

493
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:46,720
Speaker 3: that come in with the mercury poisoning. You know those

494
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:51,440
Speaker 3: top hats, you know, the everybody's heard of the Mad Hatter, right, yeah, yeah,

495
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:54,520
Speaker 3: and those top hats used to be treated with a

496
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:57,000
Speaker 3: mercury type compound, and I forget the.

497
00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:58,760
Speaker 4: Reason why I didn't know that.

498
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:01,399
Speaker 3: And so what what's happening is is, you know, when

499
00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:04,679
Speaker 3: you're wearing these top hats that had that mercury in

500
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:08,280
Speaker 3: that it was being transdermally absorbed, and now you have

501
00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:11,960
Speaker 3: that Matt Hatter's disease, where now they have this chronic

502
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:17,280
Speaker 3: exposure to mercury. So in many ways, Patrick is convincing Jones.

503
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:19,080
Speaker 3: We'll just give them a little bit of murcury here

504
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:22,159
Speaker 3: and there, and eventually this eighty four year old body

505
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:23,240
Speaker 3: is going to give out.

506
00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:25,800
Speaker 4: It's still a homicide, you know, it's still poisoning.

507
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:29,920
Speaker 3: It's not that immediate like a stabbing or gunshot or strangulation.

508
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:32,840
Speaker 4: It's a homicide that could take weeks, if not months.

509
00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:37,159
Speaker 2: Well, it's interesting because they're trying to evade detection, which

510
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:39,280
Speaker 2: we're going to hear about in a little bit, was

511
00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:42,320
Speaker 2: not so difficult to do with toxicology in the late

512
00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:44,680
Speaker 2: eighteen hundreds and right at the turn of the century.

513
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:48,800
Speaker 2: Toxicology was just really moving then, and so there were

514
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:51,520
Speaker 2: some tools available, but there weren't some tools. You could

515
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 2: detect arsenic, cyanide, some other things, but mercury. I don't

516
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:56,440
Speaker 2: know if they would pick that up in a blood

517
00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:58,280
Speaker 2: test or not during that time period.

518
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 4: And this is where I had to go back.

519
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,320
Speaker 3: I actually have a book written in eighteen ninety two,

520
00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:07,000
Speaker 3: The Essentials a Forensic Medical, Toxicology and Hygiene.

521
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:10,040
Speaker 1: Oh that a fun read, oh believe me.

522
00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:13,399
Speaker 3: But this is where, well, what could they do to

523
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:16,919
Speaker 3: detect a heavy metal like mercury? And really it was

524
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 3: just qualitative chemistry. They would take like the stomach contents.

525
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:23,000
Speaker 3: They could do a solve an extraction in order to

526
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 3: get the mercury away from all the other contaminants from

527
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:29,960
Speaker 3: the stomach. And then now they just do a chemical

528
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:33,960
Speaker 3: reaction where they're looking for a type of precipitate, something

529
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 3: that will turn solid, it be a certain color, certain shape,

530
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:39,479
Speaker 3: et cetera. Where they go, Okay, that tells us that

531
00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:44,000
Speaker 3: mercury was in this stomach contents, but it's not definitive,

532
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:45,720
Speaker 3: nor does it tell you how much.

533
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:48,359
Speaker 4: So it was still in nineteen hundreds.

534
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:51,199
Speaker 3: Even though toxicology is amazing what they could do with

535
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:57,040
Speaker 3: qualitative chemistry, it still isn't very informative relative to what

536
00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:01,160
Speaker 3: can be done today with the modern technology. The mental analysis,

537
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:04,320
Speaker 3: going after blood samples, urine samples, et cetera.

538
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:06,960
Speaker 2: Because in the eighteen hundreds, in this case nineteen hundred,

539
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:09,199
Speaker 2: they have to know what they're looking for, right. I mean,

540
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 2: I've dealt with a lot of cases where they just

541
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:13,880
Speaker 2: never found it because they never suspected that there would

542
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:17,720
Speaker 2: be morphine when it looked like it was a kidney disease.

543
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:23,000
Speaker 3: Well, and that's where they were so reliant upon those symptoms.

544
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:28,560
Speaker 3: The progression of chronic mercury exposure is different than chronic

545
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:32,120
Speaker 3: arsenic exposure or acute If you drink a whole bunch

546
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:35,119
Speaker 3: of mercury all at once, those symptoms and the damage

547
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:37,879
Speaker 3: to the tissues in the esophagus, the stomach et cetera

548
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:42,160
Speaker 3: is different and visually looks different than if you, let's

549
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:45,360
Speaker 3: say you were to take cyanide or arsenic. So they

550
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:49,159
Speaker 3: relied so much on the doctors to be able to

551
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:53,640
Speaker 3: recognize that. But how often are these doctors seeing these

552
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 3: types of things? You know, it's only going to be

553
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 3: your forensic pathologists who get that concentration of you know,

554
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,159
Speaker 3: they're doing an opt and poisonings are much more common

555
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:03,840
Speaker 3: back then than they are today.

556
00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:06,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you give them too much, it's going to

557
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 2: be a red flag for a lot of doctors. If

558
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:10,800
Speaker 2: you don't give them enough, it doesn't kill them. And

559
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 2: that's what happened. They didn't give him enough. Okay, he

560
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,840
Speaker 2: got indigestion, he got diarrhea, and that was about it

561
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 2: from the various types of doses of mercury that they

562
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:20,960
Speaker 2: gave him.

563
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:22,879
Speaker 1: An eighty four year old man survived all that.

564
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:26,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, but I bet that indigestion and diarrhea from the

565
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:30,679
Speaker 3: exposure to mercury was not mild. My thinking is is

566
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:33,960
Speaker 3: that Rice was suffering while he was trying to recover

567
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:35,159
Speaker 3: from that exposure.

568
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:35,680
Speaker 4: For sure.

569
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:38,320
Speaker 2: The next thing they did while they tried to figure

570
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:39,800
Speaker 2: out how to kill him.

571
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:41,880
Speaker 1: Was they decided that they wanted to work up a

572
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 1: new will.

573
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 2: And of course this is Albert Patrick supposedly doing all

574
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 2: of this, and Charles Jones of Vala is just kind

575
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 2: of moving along as a lackey.

576
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 1: So Albert Patrick does something that I think is very smart.

577
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 2: He works up a new will and they end up

578
00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 2: forging Rice's signature, just doing the old fashion what I

579
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 2: would do as a kid, put a piece of paper

580
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 2: on top of my mom's signature and trace it. Okay,

581
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,760
Speaker 2: And this is where I think Patrick was smart. In

582
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 2: this new will, William marsh Rice had left a portion

583
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 2: two relatives and the rest was going to go to

584
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 2: the Rice Institute. In this new will, Albert Patrick wrote

585
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:23,479
Speaker 2: that this group of relatives who would be the ones

586
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 2: to contest the will, he gave them more money in

587
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:30,160
Speaker 2: the forged will, so they didn't say anything. They wouldn't

588
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:33,080
Speaker 2: have said anything. They got more money and the rest

589
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 2: was in his name and Albert Patrick, so he just said,

590
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:36,960
Speaker 2: forget it. I'm just going to take all the money

591
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 2: and it would keep everybody else's mouth shut.

592
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 1: So I thought that was very smart.

593
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 4: So he's actually putting the majority of the money in

594
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 4: his name.

595
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:46,080
Speaker 2: Yes, because I and Rice had done business long, long,

596
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 2: long time ago, and so he could say as his

597
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 2: legal consultant, and most people would have said, Okay, we

598
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:52,960
Speaker 2: understand that.

599
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 4: Yeah.

600
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:55,800
Speaker 3: I mean for me, I've got a Laren Bell's you know,

601
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:59,440
Speaker 3: dinging in my head as an investigator if Rice was

602
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,200
Speaker 3: ought to be a victim of a homicide, and I've

603
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 3: got the attorney that's representing the dead wife's family in

604
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 3: a very contentious divorce proceeding, and now this attorney is

605
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 3: named as the primary beneficiary. Okay, there's some meat on

606
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:18,280
Speaker 3: that bone that needs to be dug into.

607
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:19,600
Speaker 1: Yep, I agree.

608
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 2: So while Albert Patrick is trying to sort out is

609
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 2: it now time to just kill the old man off,

610
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 2: he is saying that his biggest concern is autopsy. He

611
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 2: thinks that there will be an autopsy on Rice's body

612
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 2: because he's wealthy, and this.

613
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 1: Is not an automatic right.

614
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:39,240
Speaker 2: Not everybody gets an autopsy if it's not a suspicious death.

615
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:40,240
Speaker 1: Is that true?

616
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 3: Well, if today, if somebody dies under medical care, the

617
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 3: medical doctor can attribute the cause of death, and the

618
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 3: corner or medical examder's office may or may not decide

619
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 3: that they are going to proceed with an autopsy. So

620
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:02,280
Speaker 3: there is still the possibility if there's something that the

621
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:06,720
Speaker 3: coroner or medical examiner feels is whether it be suspicious

622
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:11,640
Speaker 3: or there's medical or public health safety concerns, they will say,

623
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 3: I don't care if that medical doctor is signing off,

624
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 3: we are going to take a look at this body

625
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:20,800
Speaker 3: and see what's going on. But generally, anybody who dies

626
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 3: outside the presence of direct medical care, or die suspiciously

627
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:30,200
Speaker 3: or via an accident, yes they are going to be autopsyed.

628
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:32,360
Speaker 2: So Albert Patrick actually did have something to be worried

629
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:34,720
Speaker 2: about in this case, it sounds like there would likely

630
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:35,520
Speaker 2: be an autopsy.

631
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 3: You know, I don't know how they would have handled

632
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 3: that back then, if he was just found dead in

633
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:42,320
Speaker 3: his bed and there was no signs of violence or

634
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 3: no signs of any type of illness, that there would

635
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:49,200
Speaker 3: be health concerns, then it's possible that somebody would just

636
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 3: attribute to natural death. He lived a long life, and

637
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 3: let's go ahead and get him to the funeral home.

638
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 2: Well, I think that Albert Patrick had the same concern

639
00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:58,640
Speaker 2: you did, that people were going to look at this

640
00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:01,040
Speaker 2: new will and say, who is this guy? And why

641
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:03,840
Speaker 2: would Rice have left sixty to seventy percent of his

642
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:06,880
Speaker 2: fortune to this guy instead of setting up this institute.

643
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 2: So once they started formulating a plan on how to

644
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:15,040
Speaker 2: kill him, Albert Patrick asked Charles Jones, the valet, to

645
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 2: forge another letter. And this was a letter that said

646
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 2: from William marsh Rice, I do not want to be buried.

647
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:27,440
Speaker 2: I want to be cremated because embalming sounds like a

648
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:29,360
Speaker 2: terrible thing and I don't want that to happen to

649
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 2: my body, so I would like to be cremated immediately.

650
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:49,520
Speaker 3: So now you have a twenty three year old valet

651
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:53,600
Speaker 3: who's forging this letter supposedly from Rice, and so it's

652
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:54,640
Speaker 3: a handwritten letter.

653
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 4: The will, by chance was that type set.

654
00:32:58,480 --> 00:32:58,959
Speaker 1: I believe.

655
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:01,160
Speaker 2: So, so then we got into typography too, and I

656
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 2: think they talked about that in the trial.

657
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:06,120
Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, because if there's just a signature on the

658
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:11,760
Speaker 3: will that's been forged at least today, credible document examiner's

659
00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:15,640
Speaker 3: handwriting experts generally will say there isn't enough just within

660
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:17,840
Speaker 3: a signature for me to be able to detect a

661
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 3: forgery unless it's very obvious. I mean, if they literally

662
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 3: are doing a tracing, then yes, that becomes pretty obvious.

663
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 3: To an experienced expert, but they usually want to have

664
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 3: more writing in order to be able to get a

665
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:36,160
Speaker 3: better sense of all the various permutations of the characteristics

666
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:38,920
Speaker 3: that we all have when we write. So now this

667
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 3: handwritten letter becomes critical evidence towards what now is sounding

668
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:47,800
Speaker 3: like to me a conspiracy between Patrick and Jones. Even

669
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:50,720
Speaker 3: though Jones is just kind of following Patrick's lead, he's

670
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:53,760
Speaker 3: an adult male who's an active participant. He is committing

671
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 3: a crime, and so detecting that forgery through that handwriting

672
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 3: is something that could be done then and most certainly

673
00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 3: done now with the will, with the typeset. I'm sure

674
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:09,239
Speaker 3: Patrick didn't have access to whatever typewriter was done to

675
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 3: generate the original will for Rice, and so now there

676
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 3: can be a comparison between the typewriters or whatever type

677
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:19,840
Speaker 3: of printing instrument was used in order to see, Okay,

678
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:22,600
Speaker 3: this is something that Patrick had access to and this

679
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:25,319
Speaker 3: is what was done. Today, it's so much easier to

680
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:29,719
Speaker 3: show let's say, alterations to a document or tools that

681
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:32,839
Speaker 3: were used to produce the document that the forger had

682
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:35,600
Speaker 3: access to. You know, back in the day, before you

683
00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 3: know everybody had computers, we would collect typewriters for this

684
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:43,040
Speaker 3: type of comparison, and you could pull the ribbons out

685
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:47,560
Speaker 3: of the typewriter, and the ribbons they scroll as you're typing,

686
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:50,680
Speaker 3: and you can literally take that ribbon and read what's

687
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 3: been typed. But you also because of the variances within

688
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:59,399
Speaker 3: the construction of the typewriter. This is where now one

689
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:02,760
Speaker 3: typewriter with its keys, and then all the sub characteristics

690
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:05,800
Speaker 3: within each key, like the key may be for slightly

691
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:08,279
Speaker 3: different or have an imperfection in it. You can do

692
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:12,400
Speaker 3: a physical comparison between the typed will and that typewriter

693
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:15,840
Speaker 3: and go, this typewriter produced this will.

694
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:19,320
Speaker 2: Is it as unique as striations on a bullet?

695
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:20,720
Speaker 1: Is it the same sort of concept?

696
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:24,720
Speaker 3: Well, in terms of the manufacturing defects, you know, that's

697
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:28,680
Speaker 3: something like with firearms, that is very real. And yes,

698
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:33,480
Speaker 3: with the typewriter, anything that has got a manufacturing process,

699
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:38,359
Speaker 3: studies are done to show how different consecutive objects that

700
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:41,919
Speaker 3: have flowed through the manufacturing process, how they have these

701
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:44,960
Speaker 3: microscopic differences, you know, especially with the metals.

702
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 4: And I mean it's really gets into the weeds.

703
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:50,760
Speaker 3: When you start talking about the type of manufacturing process

704
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:53,799
Speaker 3: and what it produces. But when you have I don't

705
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:55,759
Speaker 3: know how many keys are on a typewriter off the

706
00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:58,280
Speaker 3: top of my head, but let's say you have roughly

707
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:02,680
Speaker 3: fifty keys. Each one of those has a set of

708
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:07,280
Speaker 3: unique characteristics and that can be transferred onto the typed page.

709
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:10,000
Speaker 3: And then you start taking a look at I'll do

710
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 3: the all the s's on this type page, match the

711
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:15,399
Speaker 3: defects on the s on this typewriter, and then what

712
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:17,920
Speaker 3: about the a's, and what about the d's, And pretty

713
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:21,640
Speaker 3: soon you're going this typewriter produced this piece of paper.

714
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:25,480
Speaker 2: Well, I'll say that this I knew because this all

715
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:28,400
Speaker 2: comes up into trial, and you, pol Holes are a

716
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:33,240
Speaker 2: genius and you are right along with the nineteen hundred

717
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 2: district attorney who prosecuted this case.

718
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:39,520
Speaker 1: I'll tell you more about that in a minute, though. So, yes,

719
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:40,719
Speaker 1: you are right on so far.

720
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:41,880
Speaker 4: I jumped the gun on you.

721
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:43,360
Speaker 1: Then no, you were perfect.

722
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 2: So now we have a sense of urgency, and the

723
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:51,719
Speaker 2: sense of urgency comes with the Great Galveston hurricane that

724
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 2: wiped out the entire island in nineteen hundred, which was

725
00:36:55,920 --> 00:37:02,760
Speaker 2: I believe still is America's were natural disaster. Really, yeah,

726
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:05,120
Speaker 2: it was Eric Larson, who's one of my favorite authors

727
00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:07,680
Speaker 2: wrote a book about it, and it's called Isaac Storm.

728
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:10,000
Speaker 2: My family and I go to Galveston a lot and

729
00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:12,760
Speaker 2: it just wiped out the whole island, killed so many people.

730
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:14,919
Speaker 1: So Rice is in New York.

731
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:19,160
Speaker 2: His refineries was right outside Galauson One had some severe damage,

732
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:23,080
Speaker 2: and the refineries manager got a hold of him and

733
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:26,319
Speaker 2: said we need to rebuild. And Rice said how much

734
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:28,279
Speaker 2: money do you need? And he said a quarter of

735
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 2: a million dollars. So Jones here's this, reports back to Patrick,

736
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:35,960
Speaker 2: and of course Patrick says, oh shit, there goes a portion.

737
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:38,000
Speaker 1: Of our money. We need to do this now.

738
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:43,200
Speaker 2: So they began forging letters from Rice to put off

739
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:46,120
Speaker 2: the manager. Rice says, I want to rebuild, but it's

740
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:49,239
Speaker 2: not going to happen right now. They seem panicked to me.

741
00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:52,320
Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, well two hundred fifty thousand dollars back in

742
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:54,279
Speaker 3: nineteen hundred, it's a lot of money. Yeah.

743
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:55,680
Speaker 1: It was a big chunk of his estate.

744
00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 4: It was.

745
00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:58,359
Speaker 2: It was not the most, but it was something that

746
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:00,279
Speaker 2: if you're Albert Patrick and you're thinking you're going to

747
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:02,360
Speaker 2: get all this money and now, for no good reason,

748
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:04,320
Speaker 2: you're going to be a quarter of a million dollars

749
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:07,279
Speaker 2: less rich. That would panic anybody, and he wants to

750
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 2: move the timeline up of the murder. It sounds like

751
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:13,759
Speaker 2: this is just sheer greed at this point yep. So

752
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:18,360
Speaker 2: he is being poisoned slowly with mercury. It's not working,

753
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:22,000
Speaker 2: and finally they make a decision that in September of

754
00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:28,040
Speaker 2: nineteen hundred, it's time for William Marshrice to die. Now,

755
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:31,640
Speaker 2: everybody in this case there are of course differing accounts

756
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:34,600
Speaker 2: to what happens next. So what we have to do

757
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:37,600
Speaker 2: is take the valet's account because eventually, of course, this

758
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:40,120
Speaker 2: all unravels, and that's why we know about this case

759
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:44,640
Speaker 2: at all. So Charles Jones says that Albert Patrick said

760
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:47,319
Speaker 2: we need to kill him, and Charles Jones says, well,

761
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:50,000
Speaker 2: how are we going to do that? And Albert Patrick says,

762
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:51,880
Speaker 2: you're going to take a rag and you're going to

763
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:54,400
Speaker 2: put chloroform all over the rag, and you're going to

764
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:57,960
Speaker 2: put it over his face and he's essentially going to

765
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:02,400
Speaker 2: have a heart attack. And I did not know that

766
00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:06,080
Speaker 2: it was possible to die from chloroform. So I looked

767
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:07,520
Speaker 2: it up, and I asked you to look it up.

768
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:09,479
Speaker 2: To what did you find out did you know anything

769
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 2: about chloroform to begin with.

770
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:11,799
Speaker 4: I actually did.

771
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:14,560
Speaker 3: I've used chloroform in the lab, had to be familiar

772
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 3: with its properties. It is a very common solvent that

773
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:22,440
Speaker 3: is used in scientific industry. Chloroform used to be used

774
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:26,600
Speaker 3: as an anesthetic, you know, for surgery. That and diethyl

775
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 3: ether were kind of the two very early anesthetic compounds.

776
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 3: And so yes, it is something that can render somebody

777
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:38,640
Speaker 3: unconscious or kills somebody, and it kills by your respiratory depression,

778
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:43,120
Speaker 3: just like opiates. Right, you overdose on an opiate, basically

779
00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:46,440
Speaker 3: your body no longer it just it can't breathe anymore.

780
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:47,880
Speaker 4: You're not able to inhale.

781
00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:48,319
Speaker 2: Well.

782
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:51,200
Speaker 3: With the chloroform, it puts your body into a state

783
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:54,440
Speaker 3: where it is no longer breathing, and that's how you die.

784
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:58,600
Speaker 3: And that's with a very acute exposure. This is where

785
00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:01,920
Speaker 3: now you're talking about large amounts of chloroform that are

786
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:02,919
Speaker 3: being administered.

787
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:03,359
Speaker 4: Now.

788
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:06,120
Speaker 3: The interesting thing everybody's seen in the movies, you know,

789
00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 3: particularly in the older movies, you know, the killer comes

790
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:13,799
Speaker 3: up with the chloroform soaked handkerchief and puts it over

791
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:17,560
Speaker 3: somebody's mouth and the person just immediately collapses. That's not

792
00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 3: what happens. This is a relatively small amount of chloroform

793
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:25,160
Speaker 3: that is being inhaled off of that rag. You would

794
00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:29,160
Speaker 3: have to hold that rag over this person's mouth for

795
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:32,560
Speaker 3: an extended period of time before they even lose consciousness.

796
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:37,200
Speaker 3: So now under that circumstance, you imagine Jones going up

797
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:40,640
Speaker 3: to Rice and putting a rag of chloroform over his mouth.

798
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:44,359
Speaker 3: You think Rice is going to fight, Well, now you're

799
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:47,200
Speaker 3: going to have evidence of asphyxia. Now you're going to

800
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:50,040
Speaker 3: be seeing he's going to have to struggle. Jones is

801
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:51,719
Speaker 3: going to have to struggle with Rice. You're going to

802
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:56,120
Speaker 3: see the abrasions to the mouth and the nose, the teeth,

803
00:40:56,120 --> 00:41:00,200
Speaker 3: indentations in the gums. There may be physical combat. I'm

804
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:04,959
Speaker 3: sure Jones probably could dominate Rice at their respective points

805
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:08,719
Speaker 3: in their lives physically. But Rice is still going to

806
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:11,040
Speaker 3: probably have old man's strength and be able to get

807
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:12,920
Speaker 3: a blow in or scratch.

808
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:13,359
Speaker 4: Or something like that.

809
00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:15,600
Speaker 2: I don't think I've heard of old man's strength before.

810
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:18,640
Speaker 3: Oh well, hey, it's real. Believe me, I'm an old man.

811
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:21,960
Speaker 3: I have some old man's strength. But this is where

812
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:25,960
Speaker 3: you know, there's that myth that is perpetuated in the

813
00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:28,080
Speaker 3: movies about this rag.

814
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:29,279
Speaker 4: So this is where I'm going.

815
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:32,440
Speaker 3: Well, if Jones is saying that that's how this happened,

816
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:34,040
Speaker 3: I want to know a little bit more.

817
00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:36,120
Speaker 4: And this is where the autopsy, I think comes in.

818
00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:39,320
Speaker 2: So let me tell you what Charles Jones said, because

819
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 2: this is the main source of what happened that night.

820
00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:45,920
Speaker 2: So Charles Jones says that Albert Patrick says, this is

821
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:47,600
Speaker 2: the night to do it. We're not going to be

822
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:49,480
Speaker 2: able to get away with this much longer. He's going

823
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:51,320
Speaker 2: to want to send this check at some point for

824
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:52,600
Speaker 2: a quarter of a million dollars.

825
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:54,520
Speaker 1: We don't want him to send it. This is the

826
00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:55,279
Speaker 1: night to do it.

827
00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:58,600
Speaker 2: He hands him rags with a bottle of chloroform, and

828
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:00,840
Speaker 2: he says, wait till the old man's up on the couch,

829
00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:03,600
Speaker 2: pour a chloroform all over the rag, and then put

830
00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:06,719
Speaker 2: it on his face and it'll knock him out and

831
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:09,000
Speaker 2: then he'll have a heart attack and he'll die. And

832
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:11,759
Speaker 2: Jones says he did that. He waited as if the

833
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:14,240
Speaker 2: old man was asleep. Rice was asleep on the couch.

834
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:17,120
Speaker 2: He put the rag on He didn't hold the rag

835
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:19,880
Speaker 2: on his face. He said, he laid it on his face,

836
00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:24,840
Speaker 2: and eventually Rice stopped breathing. There was no fighting, no nothing.

837
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:26,759
Speaker 2: Does that sound logical to you.

838
00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:29,520
Speaker 3: Some of the concerns that I had related to the

839
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:32,920
Speaker 3: use of a rag saturated with chloroform and how long

840
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:35,440
Speaker 3: it would take there would be the signs of asphyxia.

841
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:39,960
Speaker 3: Under this scenario, he's avoiding a lot of the potential

842
00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:45,000
Speaker 3: injuries that would be seen by investigators or pathologists to

843
00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:49,200
Speaker 3: show that there had been an asphixial act that occurred

844
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:54,719
Speaker 3: on Rice. So under that circumstance, I'm a little bit

845
00:42:54,840 --> 00:43:00,280
Speaker 3: more intrigued about the possibility that if this chloroform rag

846
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 3: is over Rice's nose and mouth for a longer period

847
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:09,480
Speaker 3: of time, would that be sufficient to cause respiratory depression.

848
00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:10,040
Speaker 1: Yeah.

849
00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:12,719
Speaker 3: I'm not absolutely convinced of that, but at least it

850
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:16,120
Speaker 3: puts it within the world of possibility where I'd be

851
00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:19,800
Speaker 3: reaching out to an expert and saying, hey, what about

852
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:20,520
Speaker 3: this scenario.

853
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:23,440
Speaker 2: I think the big question for me and for some

854
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:26,799
Speaker 2: of the medical experts in nineteen hundred was if you

855
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:31,320
Speaker 2: are asleep, even if you're an older man who's lulled

856
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:35,280
Speaker 2: into a really deep sleep, if you smelled and felt

857
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:38,680
Speaker 2: something on your face. Wouldn't your natural instinct would be

858
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:41,520
Speaker 2: just to knock it off if somebody's not holding it

859
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:46,000
Speaker 2: on your face, Or would chloroform act quickly enough to

860
00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:46,839
Speaker 2: disable him?

861
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:48,160
Speaker 1: You said it takes a lot.

862
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:51,960
Speaker 3: Right, at least with what my research showed is that chloroform,

863
00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:54,560
Speaker 3: with the amount that you would be inhaling off of

864
00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:57,920
Speaker 3: a rag like this, it would take some time. So

865
00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:01,840
Speaker 3: Rice would be laying there sleeping for some time before

866
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:06,240
Speaker 3: any type of depression caused by the chloroform would truly

867
00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:10,160
Speaker 3: kick in. I still question whether or not there would

868
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:14,440
Speaker 3: be sufficient exposure to the chloroform that could have caused

869
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:19,120
Speaker 3: Rice to die from it under this scenario. The other

870
00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:23,880
Speaker 3: aspect is chloroform is very strong smelling. It's got a

871
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:29,160
Speaker 3: kind of this sickly sweet smell. It is so distinctive.

872
00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:32,960
Speaker 3: And so if this is even with Rice's sleep, and

873
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:35,480
Speaker 3: this rag is just laid on top of him, this

874
00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:38,839
Speaker 3: would be something that I think would naturally wake somebody up.

875
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:43,520
Speaker 3: You've got this very strong smelling solvent that you're breathing in,

876
00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:46,319
Speaker 3: So there may be something more going on than this

877
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:49,080
Speaker 3: scenario in my estimation at this point.

878
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:53,680
Speaker 2: So Rice is dead. The doctor's called. The doctor says

879
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:58,359
Speaker 2: natural causes. He was eighty four, he had indigestion. His

880
00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:04,040
Speaker 2: death certificate said he died of old age and extreme nervousness,

881
00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:07,120
Speaker 2: which I've seen on many death certificates, pretty much only

882
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:09,680
Speaker 2: in the eighteen hundred, so, which to me is heart

883
00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:11,360
Speaker 2: attack or something to that effect.

884
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:12,680
Speaker 1: I mean, is that what you would think?

885
00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:15,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, that's such an odd term.

886
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:19,400
Speaker 3: That's where kind of getting into the medical parlance of

887
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:23,800
Speaker 3: the day to try to figure out what symptoms were

888
00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:28,320
Speaker 3: being interpreted in the final day's, final months of Rice's

889
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:31,000
Speaker 3: life that this doctor is saying extreme nervousness is a

890
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:32,080
Speaker 3: contributing factor.

891
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:33,799
Speaker 4: I'm not sure what that would be.

892
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:37,880
Speaker 3: If he got indigestion for mercury poisoning, It's possible that

893
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:41,239
Speaker 3: he did get enough mercury in a system where he's

894
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:44,840
Speaker 3: developed a level of the shakes in his hands. Generally,

895
00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:47,600
Speaker 3: mercury when it starts affecting the nervous system, affects the

896
00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:51,520
Speaker 3: upper extremities before the lower extremities. And so maybe that

897
00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:54,760
Speaker 3: somebody is saying, you know, he's shaking all the time,

898
00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:56,319
Speaker 3: you know, and here's your nervousness.

899
00:45:56,560 --> 00:45:59,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, the phrase that I had mentioned to you before

900
00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:03,000
Speaker 2: is nervous prostration is what I've written about, which seems

901
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:09,160
Speaker 2: like extreme nervousness. Nervous prostration is interpreted as extreme exhaustion.

902
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:12,680
Speaker 4: So yeah, the doctor is just basically saying he's eighty four.

903
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:15,520
Speaker 4: He just gave out, you know.

904
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:21,520
Speaker 2: Okay, So Albert Patrick talks to the undertaker, because Albert

905
00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:24,120
Speaker 2: Patrick's in the will, he talks to the undertaker. He

906
00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:27,719
Speaker 2: hands him the certificate and says Rice wants to be cremated.

907
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:32,640
Speaker 2: And the undertaker delivers some terrible news to Albert Patrick,

908
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:35,279
Speaker 2: which is it takes twenty four hours to heat this

909
00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:39,200
Speaker 2: thing up to cremate someone. Okay, And so now Albert

910
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:45,120
Speaker 2: Patrick is essentially freaking out, and he says, embolman, put

911
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:47,000
Speaker 2: the fluid in him right now. Don't even take it,

912
00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:50,040
Speaker 2: just put it in right now. He's trying to corrupt

913
00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:51,720
Speaker 2: the blood, I think, is what's happening?

914
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:52,480
Speaker 1: Is that what you think?

915
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:53,279
Speaker 4: Well, he is.

916
00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:56,759
Speaker 3: Most certainly trying to make alterations to the body to

917
00:46:56,840 --> 00:46:59,840
Speaker 3: cover up these external tox instead have been put in

918
00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:04,080
Speaker 3: some Rice's body. But he's relatively naive about things. But

919
00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:07,680
Speaker 3: he's thinking on his feet. And so now he's just

920
00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:12,360
Speaker 3: trying to contaminate the body as much as possible before

921
00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:15,440
Speaker 3: authorities decide or we better check into this death a

922
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:16,760
Speaker 3: little bit more closely.

923
00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:20,160
Speaker 2: So he's being naive slash smart. I'm not sure what

924
00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:21,360
Speaker 2: kind of attorney that is.

925
00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:24,280
Speaker 4: This is where you know just enough to get yourself

926
00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:24,760
Speaker 4: in trouble.

927
00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:28,759
Speaker 2: So along those lines, Jones and Patrick the next day

928
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:32,640
Speaker 2: spend much of the day forging checks, forging Rice's signature

929
00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:37,680
Speaker 2: on checks, backdating them, and trying to deposit them. Unfortunately,

930
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:41,200
Speaker 2: Jones is in charge of filling out many of the checks,

931
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:44,680
Speaker 2: and on several of the checks that are supposed to

932
00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:48,840
Speaker 2: be paid to the order of Albert Patrick, he misspells

933
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:53,080
Speaker 2: Albert's name, and that seems to be an issue because

934
00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:58,160
Speaker 2: I guess William marsh Rice was very meticulous, and his banker,

935
00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:01,920
Speaker 2: when he receives the check, noticed that he had spelled

936
00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:05,000
Speaker 2: this name wrong, and he starts to investigate. And because

937
00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:07,760
Speaker 2: of this one banker he says, I think something's wrong,

938
00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:10,719
Speaker 2: and then he finds out that William Marshrice was dead,

939
00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:14,440
Speaker 2: and he calls the investigators, and this whole thing unravels

940
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:18,000
Speaker 2: for both of them, for the valet and for the attorney.

941
00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:20,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, they were trying to do too much.

942
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:22,960
Speaker 3: That really is the bottom line is I think you

943
00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:26,839
Speaker 3: use the term the panic set in and so now, well,

944
00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:30,880
Speaker 3: we better start trying to get money flowing before the

945
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:34,759
Speaker 3: spigot gets turned off during an investigation. But then they're

946
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:38,719
Speaker 3: just leaving a paper trail that is becoming obvious to

947
00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:42,799
Speaker 3: somebody who knows Rice well, going nope, this isn't right.

948
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:46,520
Speaker 3: And now the investigation kicks off on assuming correct.

949
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:48,560
Speaker 1: So they start putting all of this together.

950
00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:51,920
Speaker 2: They bring in like you're talking about, forensic document experts

951
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:55,000
Speaker 2: who look at the signatures, who look at the typography,

952
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:57,960
Speaker 2: everything that's happening, and says none of this matches up,

953
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:02,280
Speaker 2: and they proceed to arrest both of them, Jones and Patrick.

954
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:06,600
Speaker 2: Jones says I didn't do any of this. Patrick says,

955
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:09,920
Speaker 2: I didn't do anything. Nothing happened. The guy died of

956
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:11,719
Speaker 2: natural causes and there's no way you.

957
00:49:11,719 --> 00:49:15,120
Speaker 1: Can prove otherwise. And I might be.

958
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:17,720
Speaker 2: An attorney who tried to wiggle in a couple of places,

959
00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:18,600
Speaker 2: but I'm not a killer.

960
00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:19,680
Speaker 1: And he's right.

961
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:22,360
Speaker 2: He could be a sleazy attorney all he wants, but

962
00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:25,160
Speaker 2: that doesn't make him a murderer. So it's a district

963
00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:29,680
Speaker 2: attorney's job now to prove that Albert Patrick was the

964
00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:31,520
Speaker 2: one who orchestrated this whole thing.

965
00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:33,560
Speaker 1: And this seems like a daunting test to me, does

966
00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:34,000
Speaker 1: it to you?

967
00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:37,040
Speaker 3: Well, it could be. You know what this is where

968
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:40,280
Speaker 3: if you have you know, a good investigator on the case.

969
00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:45,080
Speaker 3: I mean, this is a golden opportunity. You have two

970
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:49,879
Speaker 3: conspirators who are now turning on each other, and this

971
00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:54,240
Speaker 3: is where the interview becomes critical. It's okay, you either

972
00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:56,960
Speaker 3: going down or he's going down. You better start talking

973
00:49:57,040 --> 00:50:00,440
Speaker 3: about what actually happened and then playing them off of

974
00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:03,280
Speaker 3: each other so you can get so much information before

975
00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:05,800
Speaker 3: this even gets into a trial.

976
00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:08,720
Speaker 1: Who do you think flips? Because one of them does flip.

977
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:12,560
Speaker 3: Jones is the weak link, twenty three year old, subservient male,

978
00:50:12,840 --> 00:50:17,200
Speaker 3: and Patrick is the sophisticated attorney who's thinking he's smarter

979
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:21,359
Speaker 3: than anybody, so he's going to hold his mud while

980
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:24,640
Speaker 3: Jones is just going to sit there and chirp away, you.

981
00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:27,520
Speaker 2: Did it, that was it? Yeah, Jones flipped on him.

982
00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:33,120
Speaker 2: Jones was offered full immunity. Can you trust somebody who

983
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:35,120
Speaker 2: was offered full immunity on the stand?

984
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:36,719
Speaker 4: Well you can.

985
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:40,080
Speaker 3: It all depends on who they are, and it's really

986
00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:44,799
Speaker 3: comes down to does the jury trust this witness? And

987
00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:48,560
Speaker 3: this is where Jones, by providing testimony, he has to

988
00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:51,560
Speaker 3: be convincing, where the jurors believe him.

989
00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:55,480
Speaker 2: So there's two parts to this trial, really. I think

990
00:50:55,840 --> 00:50:57,759
Speaker 2: one is the medical testimony. I'll tell you about in

991
00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:01,239
Speaker 2: a second. The first part is Jones, who is to

992
00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:05,280
Speaker 2: me the definition of an unreliable witness. He talks about

993
00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:09,400
Speaker 2: placing the rag over Rice, and Rice doesn't move at all.

994
00:51:09,640 --> 00:51:11,319
Speaker 1: Medical experts don't think that's likely.

995
00:51:11,680 --> 00:51:12,080
Speaker 4: Yeah.

996
00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:14,560
Speaker 2: He talks about taking the rag after Rice was dead

997
00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:16,960
Speaker 2: and throwing it onto a stove and it catches on

998
00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:20,719
Speaker 2: fire right and bursts into flames. Not just a rag

999
00:51:20,760 --> 00:51:22,840
Speaker 2: that sort of kind of catches on fire. It's almost

1000
00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:26,239
Speaker 2: like an explosion. And then Albert Patrick's attorney said, this

1001
00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:29,920
Speaker 2: is BS. This guy is lying about everything. If he

1002
00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:33,200
Speaker 2: lies about that one thing, how can we trust anything,

1003
00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:34,719
Speaker 2: he says, And I think that's the line a lot

1004
00:51:34,719 --> 00:51:36,960
Speaker 2: of attorneys have used over the past hundred years.

1005
00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:37,640
Speaker 4: For sure.

1006
00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:40,440
Speaker 3: That's how you start chipping away at the veracity of

1007
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:43,319
Speaker 3: a witness is you catch them in a single and

1008
00:51:43,360 --> 00:51:46,280
Speaker 3: it may just be a minor detail that they got wrong,

1009
00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:49,400
Speaker 3: but then you blow it up and then you just

1010
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:53,120
Speaker 3: taint anything else that they're saying from it. What stands

1011
00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:56,120
Speaker 3: out to me with the chloroform and taking a look

1012
00:51:56,120 --> 00:52:00,279
Speaker 3: at its physical properties, it is not excessively flammable thing.

1013
00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:01,640
Speaker 4: If it was thrown on this stove.

1014
00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:03,880
Speaker 3: You know, I do see where that rag with the

1015
00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:07,239
Speaker 3: chloroform on it, you may have it catch fire to

1016
00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:10,680
Speaker 3: a point. But if he's saying it was explosive, I

1017
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:14,320
Speaker 3: question if it was even chloroform. Maybe there was another

1018
00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:17,480
Speaker 3: solvent that was on this rag and it wasn't chloroform.

1019
00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:18,040
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1020
00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:19,839
Speaker 2: The thing I didn't tell you about Jones was that

1021
00:52:19,880 --> 00:52:22,440
Speaker 2: in the middle of all of this, he was jailed.

1022
00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:25,239
Speaker 2: Even though he was given immunity, he was jailed and

1023
00:52:25,280 --> 00:52:27,320
Speaker 2: he tried to take his own life in the middle

1024
00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:29,560
Speaker 2: of all of this. Oh okay, I think it's clear

1025
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:32,280
Speaker 2: that he had some mental health struggles. I think possibly

1026
00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:35,880
Speaker 2: even before this, but this certainly didn't help. And Albert

1027
00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:39,520
Speaker 2: Patrick's attorney then turned to the medical testimony, and this

1028
00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:42,560
Speaker 2: is the interesting thing. So they did the autopsy because

1029
00:52:42,600 --> 00:52:45,920
Speaker 2: thank goodness, William marsh Rice did not get cremated. They

1030
00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:51,360
Speaker 2: did the autopsy, and the medical examiner said everything was

1031
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:54,000
Speaker 2: actually for an eighty four year old man was in

1032
00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:57,880
Speaker 2: pretty good shape and the only issue were his lungs.

1033
00:52:58,280 --> 00:53:01,000
Speaker 2: And the lungs were congested and they had sort of

1034
00:53:01,280 --> 00:53:03,759
Speaker 2: kind of a burned out look, as if they had

1035
00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:08,960
Speaker 2: been exposed to a gas or a severe irritant. So

1036
00:53:09,239 --> 00:53:12,640
Speaker 2: the district attorney said, of course, this is what caused it.

1037
00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:14,440
Speaker 2: And what do you think he said, this was the

1038
00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:15,239
Speaker 2: cause of his death?

1039
00:53:15,320 --> 00:53:16,480
Speaker 1: Was the chloroform? Right?

1040
00:53:16,719 --> 00:53:17,040
Speaker 4: Sure?

1041
00:53:17,239 --> 00:53:20,719
Speaker 3: Now when you say his lungs had a burned out appearance,

1042
00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:22,480
Speaker 3: do you have any more details about that?

1043
00:53:23,080 --> 00:53:26,719
Speaker 2: They said, sort of like sores, almost like lesions, But

1044
00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:30,640
Speaker 2: the lungs were incredibly irritated, like it just seemed like

1045
00:53:30,840 --> 00:53:34,040
Speaker 2: almost on the brink of like red marks everywhere, and

1046
00:53:34,120 --> 00:53:35,480
Speaker 2: just really irritated.

1047
00:53:35,600 --> 00:53:37,360
Speaker 1: Is the only description I had.

1048
00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:41,800
Speaker 3: Any testimony about inside the mouth or down the esophagus.

1049
00:53:42,120 --> 00:53:44,400
Speaker 2: Now, see this is what stinks, Paul. You're going to

1050
00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:46,640
Speaker 2: learn when we do stories from the nineteen hundreds.

1051
00:53:46,680 --> 00:53:49,680
Speaker 1: I can't call I can't call the medical advance.

1052
00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:49,920
Speaker 4: No.

1053
00:53:49,960 --> 00:53:53,040
Speaker 3: But this is the part of Okay, So the limitations

1054
00:53:53,120 --> 00:53:56,640
Speaker 3: at the time, the limitations of the autopsy, and you

1055
00:53:56,640 --> 00:54:00,040
Speaker 3: know when I hear long congestion, of course that the

1056
00:54:00,120 --> 00:54:04,120
Speaker 3: natural thought is with the idea that chloroform was potentially

1057
00:54:04,239 --> 00:54:07,040
Speaker 3: used in this case, that the inhalation of chloroform is

1058
00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:11,560
Speaker 3: what the irritant is that caused the issue inside the lungs. However,

1059
00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:16,080
Speaker 3: chloroform and many other substances when ingested orally, when it's

1060
00:54:16,080 --> 00:54:19,440
Speaker 3: absorbed into the body, you also can get pulmonary edema

1061
00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:22,920
Speaker 3: or lung congestion. And I found like a nineteen thirty

1062
00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:25,880
Speaker 3: three article talking about a guy that drank six ounces

1063
00:54:25,920 --> 00:54:29,520
Speaker 3: of chloroform and at automosy his lungs were congested. So

1064
00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:33,239
Speaker 3: this is where now the idea of this rag being

1065
00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:37,480
Speaker 3: laid over Rice's mouth for a period of time, I

1066
00:54:37,600 --> 00:54:41,520
Speaker 3: wonder more, is it possible that Rice was given something

1067
00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:45,880
Speaker 3: to drink that contained chloroform and we see this type

1068
00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:48,960
Speaker 3: of response today. I had a tragic case of a

1069
00:54:49,000 --> 00:54:51,960
Speaker 3: teenage boy who I rolled out on, who was dad

1070
00:54:52,040 --> 00:54:55,840
Speaker 3: laying face up, and he had ingested an entire bottle

1071
00:54:56,080 --> 00:54:59,600
Speaker 3: of Coffs aerup containing codeine, and his lungs you could

1072
00:54:59,640 --> 00:55:02,239
Speaker 3: see it foaming at the mouth because of all the

1073
00:55:02,239 --> 00:55:04,719
Speaker 3: pulmonaria edema that is now extruding.

1074
00:55:04,760 --> 00:55:07,640
Speaker 4: We see this in these overdose type deaths.

1075
00:55:08,040 --> 00:55:13,000
Speaker 3: So the chloroform absent the technology today to be able

1076
00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:16,719
Speaker 3: to identify chloroform in the body. I start questioning, well,

1077
00:55:16,760 --> 00:55:19,399
Speaker 3: if there was chloroform used, was it.

1078
00:55:19,360 --> 00:55:23,000
Speaker 4: In elation versus oral ingestion? And at autopsy?

1079
00:55:23,239 --> 00:55:26,399
Speaker 3: Chloroform because it has such a distinct odor, pathologists would

1080
00:55:26,440 --> 00:55:29,440
Speaker 3: often be able to smell that odor when they open

1081
00:55:29,600 --> 00:55:31,759
Speaker 3: up the body, so that's where it. Second, did this

1082
00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:35,080
Speaker 3: pathologist note that did he actually pay attention to the

1083
00:55:35,160 --> 00:55:37,680
Speaker 3: oral cavity? Did he pay attention to the esophagus and

1084
00:55:37,719 --> 00:55:41,759
Speaker 3: the stomach to see Is there the possibility that this

1085
00:55:41,960 --> 00:55:46,600
Speaker 3: was actually something that had been fed to rice, maybe

1086
00:55:46,600 --> 00:55:49,640
Speaker 3: in a liquid form, versus this rag over his mouth.

1087
00:55:49,719 --> 00:55:52,279
Speaker 3: I just the rag over the mouth unless somebody with

1088
00:55:52,360 --> 00:55:54,520
Speaker 3: a lot of knowledge comes in as it's a possibility

1089
00:55:54,600 --> 00:55:57,160
Speaker 3: under these circumstances, I'm just skeptical of that.

1090
00:55:57,520 --> 00:56:01,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, it seems odd and Jones's just unreliable in general.

1091
00:56:01,840 --> 00:56:02,280
Speaker 1: I think.

1092
00:56:02,600 --> 00:56:06,280
Speaker 2: Now, Albert Patrick had an attorney, but mostly he represented

1093
00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:08,360
Speaker 2: himself because he was that kind of an attorney.

1094
00:56:08,640 --> 00:56:10,120
Speaker 1: He wanted to represent himself.

1095
00:56:10,600 --> 00:56:14,920
Speaker 2: And Albert Patrick said the congestion from the lungs is

1096
00:56:15,040 --> 00:56:17,800
Speaker 2: not chloroform, because I never told Jones to do that.

1097
00:56:17,840 --> 00:56:19,960
Speaker 2: I had nothing to do with that. It was the

1098
00:56:19,960 --> 00:56:24,720
Speaker 2: embalming fluid, okay. And at the time the doctor said

1099
00:56:25,320 --> 00:56:28,880
Speaker 2: that is impossible. The heart valves would not allow embalming

1100
00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:33,360
Speaker 2: fluid through. But now people at medical experts today say

1101
00:56:33,440 --> 00:56:36,360
Speaker 2: it is possible the embalming fluid could have been in

1102
00:56:36,400 --> 00:56:36,920
Speaker 2: the lungs.

1103
00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:37,960
Speaker 1: What do you think about that?

1104
00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:41,760
Speaker 3: Well, if you have the fluid, the embalming fluid, which

1105
00:56:42,280 --> 00:56:45,799
Speaker 3: you know formal to hide methanol and some other chemicals,

1106
00:56:46,040 --> 00:56:49,120
Speaker 3: these of course are going to be chemicals that are

1107
00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:53,480
Speaker 3: not kind to the lungs. But this is we're having

1108
00:56:53,480 --> 00:56:56,640
Speaker 3: a good pathologist, and you know, we don't know because

1109
00:56:56,719 --> 00:57:01,400
Speaker 3: you can determine very rapidly, is that due to just

1110
00:57:01,480 --> 00:57:07,440
Speaker 3: the embalming process, or do I have vital reactions occurring,

1111
00:57:07,840 --> 00:57:12,120
Speaker 3: Because now you have living tissue as risis succumbing to

1112
00:57:12,560 --> 00:57:17,120
Speaker 3: exposure to let's say chloroform, you have inflammation responses. You know,

1113
00:57:17,200 --> 00:57:19,600
Speaker 3: they take tissue samples and look at them under the

1114
00:57:19,640 --> 00:57:23,600
Speaker 3: microscope to see what types of cells are flowing in

1115
00:57:23,600 --> 00:57:26,600
Speaker 3: to the aveoli and everything else. To determine am I

1116
00:57:26,720 --> 00:57:30,040
Speaker 3: dealing with something that is because the body was exposed

1117
00:57:30,040 --> 00:57:33,280
Speaker 3: to something? Or am I dealing with a post mortem

1118
00:57:33,440 --> 00:57:38,120
Speaker 3: artifact and these solvents the embalming fluid being able to

1119
00:57:38,240 --> 00:57:42,040
Speaker 3: pass through into the lungs Right now, I couldn't answer that,

1120
00:57:42,080 --> 00:57:44,640
Speaker 3: but that would be my question today to a pathologist

1121
00:57:44,800 --> 00:57:46,840
Speaker 3: is Okay, did you do enough to be able to

1122
00:57:46,880 --> 00:57:49,760
Speaker 3: eliminate the fact that this could be something that happened

1123
00:57:49,800 --> 00:57:50,400
Speaker 3: after death?

1124
00:57:50,720 --> 00:57:53,200
Speaker 2: To me, the crux of this case is it is

1125
00:57:53,240 --> 00:57:56,680
Speaker 2: a little bit of a medical mystery. And with the

1126
00:57:56,720 --> 00:57:59,680
Speaker 2: fact that we've got all of these forgeries and this

1127
00:57:59,760 --> 00:58:04,560
Speaker 2: attorney who is obviously manipulative and with the intention of stealing,

1128
00:58:05,160 --> 00:58:08,760
Speaker 2: is that enough if we take out the medical mystery

1129
00:58:08,760 --> 00:58:09,560
Speaker 2: of how he died?

1130
00:58:09,680 --> 00:58:11,560
Speaker 1: Is that enough evidence to say.

1131
00:58:11,400 --> 00:58:15,960
Speaker 2: Albert Patrick should be executed because that's what would happen.

1132
00:58:16,360 --> 00:58:19,200
Speaker 2: He would be sentencing seeing to the electric chair. Is

1133
00:58:19,240 --> 00:58:22,320
Speaker 2: this enough if we aren't one hundred percent sure that

1134
00:58:22,360 --> 00:58:24,640
Speaker 2: this is murder? That's the question the jury had.

1135
00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:25,360
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1136
00:58:25,440 --> 00:58:29,240
Speaker 3: The totality of the evidence, in my opinion, most certainly

1137
00:58:29,360 --> 00:58:34,120
Speaker 3: points at Patrick and Jones conspiring to kill Rice and

1138
00:58:34,240 --> 00:58:37,560
Speaker 3: his death was caused at the hands of another. This

1139
00:58:37,800 --> 00:58:42,440
Speaker 3: was not a natural death. Now, the actual cause of death,

1140
00:58:42,840 --> 00:58:45,680
Speaker 3: maybe because of the frailty at eighty four years old,

1141
00:58:45,960 --> 00:58:48,560
Speaker 3: everything that was being done to him by these two

1142
00:58:48,960 --> 00:58:51,800
Speaker 3: he succumbed to just you know, as a pathologist or

1143
00:58:51,840 --> 00:58:56,680
Speaker 3: the doc said this nervous prostration due to exhaustion. But

1144
00:58:56,800 --> 00:58:59,240
Speaker 3: this was something that he wouldn't normally have been dealing with.

1145
00:58:59,800 --> 00:59:02,760
Speaker 3: Two people were giving a mercury, giving the chloroform, doing

1146
00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:05,520
Speaker 3: all this stuff. But I think the totality of the circumstances,

1147
00:59:05,560 --> 00:59:09,120
Speaker 3: in my mind, you know, probably goes beyond reasonable doubt

1148
00:59:09,120 --> 00:59:13,560
Speaker 3: that they were responsible for his death. And it's possible

1149
00:59:13,680 --> 00:59:16,840
Speaker 3: that with Jones's testimony saying well it was chloroform, and

1150
00:59:16,880 --> 00:59:22,040
Speaker 3: there's really absent the introduction of the embalming fluid, there's

1151
00:59:22,040 --> 00:59:26,800
Speaker 3: nothing necessarily contradicting the fact that chloroform could have been used.

1152
00:59:27,240 --> 00:59:31,200
Speaker 3: So I think there's sufficient cause to convict. But of course,

1153
00:59:31,440 --> 00:59:34,640
Speaker 3: if the only option is to execute, that's where it

1154
00:59:34,720 --> 00:59:36,920
Speaker 3: kind of gets into where you see more of a

1155
00:59:36,960 --> 00:59:41,600
Speaker 3: stratification of the murder laws today. You know, so the

1156
00:59:41,760 --> 00:59:45,480
Speaker 3: jury has an option going, Okay, it doesn't rise to

1157
00:59:45,600 --> 00:59:48,720
Speaker 3: this in this case. If they convict, there's no question

1158
00:59:48,800 --> 00:59:52,080
Speaker 3: there's pre planning, there's malice, a foe thought, So that's

1159
00:59:52,120 --> 00:59:54,760
Speaker 3: going to be one of those things that separates first

1160
00:59:54,800 --> 00:59:57,920
Speaker 3: from second murder, at least in California. What are the

1161
00:59:57,920 --> 01:00:00,880
Speaker 3: special circumstances you know, that would it up into a

1162
01:00:00,960 --> 01:00:06,560
Speaker 3: death eligible case. So from my perspective, I could see

1163
01:00:06,560 --> 01:00:09,560
Speaker 3: where the conundrum would be, does the state execute somebody

1164
01:00:09,640 --> 01:00:12,720
Speaker 3: when we can't prove that either one of them actually

1165
01:00:13,240 --> 01:00:15,400
Speaker 3: utilized a chemical weapon?

1166
01:00:15,600 --> 01:00:15,840
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1167
01:00:16,080 --> 01:00:18,800
Speaker 2: To me, it comes down to had these men not

1168
01:00:18,920 --> 01:00:21,960
Speaker 2: been doing what they were doing, giving the mercury, had

1169
01:00:22,240 --> 01:00:24,440
Speaker 2: he just laid down that night and gone to sleep

1170
01:00:24,840 --> 01:00:27,840
Speaker 2: without chloroform on his face or anything else, is it

1171
01:00:27,960 --> 01:00:30,400
Speaker 2: likely he would have woken up the next day, probably

1172
01:00:30,560 --> 01:00:34,040
Speaker 2: despite being eighty four, because the medical examiner said the

1173
01:00:34,040 --> 01:00:36,120
Speaker 2: rest of his organs were in great shape for a

1174
01:00:36,160 --> 01:00:40,920
Speaker 2: man his age, and Patrick and Jones had been worried

1175
01:00:41,040 --> 01:00:43,920
Speaker 2: that he was going to keep living for years because

1176
01:00:43,960 --> 01:00:46,240
Speaker 2: he was in good shape. I guess that's what bully

1177
01:00:46,320 --> 01:00:50,160
Speaker 2: and base and eggsill do for you. But the jury

1178
01:00:50,480 --> 01:00:53,080
Speaker 2: agreed with you that there was a sufficient amount of

1179
01:00:53,120 --> 01:00:56,600
Speaker 2: evidence that they were guilty, okay, and Albert Patrick was

1180
01:00:56,640 --> 01:01:00,400
Speaker 2: sentenced to sing sing to the electric chair and Charles

1181
01:01:00,480 --> 01:01:01,520
Speaker 2: Jones walked.

1182
01:01:01,640 --> 01:01:03,400
Speaker 1: He had total immunity. He left.

1183
01:01:04,040 --> 01:01:07,360
Speaker 2: He ended up about several decades later, taking his own

1184
01:01:07,400 --> 01:01:10,760
Speaker 2: life again. I think struggles with mental illness or problems

1185
01:01:10,760 --> 01:01:15,200
Speaker 2: with this case. So flash forward ten years. Albert Patrick

1186
01:01:15,240 --> 01:01:18,120
Speaker 2: spends ten years in prison, and he has a whole

1187
01:01:18,120 --> 01:01:22,120
Speaker 2: team of attorneys working this entire time. His sister very

1188
01:01:22,200 --> 01:01:26,640
Speaker 2: fortuitously married into a wealthy family who believed him, and

1189
01:01:27,080 --> 01:01:30,840
Speaker 2: they appeal after appeal after appeal, and finally they won

1190
01:01:30,920 --> 01:01:35,240
Speaker 2: an appeal and he was commuted from the death penalty

1191
01:01:35,520 --> 01:01:38,479
Speaker 2: from the electric chair to life in prison. And then

1192
01:01:38,960 --> 01:01:41,400
Speaker 2: a couple of years later, the Governor of New York

1193
01:01:41,760 --> 01:01:45,880
Speaker 2: pardoned him. Oh wow, he walked out. So the Governor

1194
01:01:45,920 --> 01:01:48,480
Speaker 2: of New York said, and a lot of doctors did

1195
01:01:48,520 --> 01:01:53,280
Speaker 2: come forward and say, you cannot connect chloroform to this death.

1196
01:01:53,360 --> 01:01:56,400
Speaker 2: Will you cannot definitively say it. Yes, this guy is

1197
01:01:56,480 --> 01:01:59,920
Speaker 2: a terrible person and an unscrupulous attorney, but you can

1198
01:02:00,160 --> 01:02:02,560
Speaker 2: not say definitively that he is a murderer. He should

1199
01:02:02,600 --> 01:02:04,800
Speaker 2: have never been sent to sing sing. So that's what

1200
01:02:04,840 --> 01:02:06,920
Speaker 2: the governor said. Now, of course, there's all sorts of

1201
01:02:07,000 --> 01:02:10,520
Speaker 2: rumors that I believe that the family paid off everybody

1202
01:02:10,520 --> 01:02:12,640
Speaker 2: they possibly could to get him out. But he got

1203
01:02:12,680 --> 01:02:15,040
Speaker 2: out and he ended up living a really quiet life

1204
01:02:15,080 --> 01:02:15,800
Speaker 2: in Oklahoma.

1205
01:02:16,240 --> 01:02:16,800
Speaker 4: Okay.

1206
01:02:17,040 --> 01:02:20,960
Speaker 3: I wasn't expecting that that's the goal, Paul Holes.

1207
01:02:21,440 --> 01:02:22,840
Speaker 4: I thought he went to the electric chairs.

1208
01:02:23,280 --> 01:02:28,520
Speaker 1: No, he didn't get any of the money. So thank goodness, though.

1209
01:02:29,000 --> 01:02:32,080
Speaker 2: The silver lining on this whole case, and actually I

1210
01:02:32,080 --> 01:02:34,320
Speaker 2: wouldn't call that silver lining. I would just say the

1211
01:02:34,320 --> 01:02:37,640
Speaker 2: bright spot of any of this is that the money

1212
01:02:37,760 --> 01:02:39,440
Speaker 2: ended up going where it was supposed to go.

1213
01:02:39,880 --> 01:02:42,480
Speaker 1: James Baker, the attorney, took the money.

1214
01:02:42,360 --> 01:02:45,360
Speaker 2: Figured out the correct will, and used the money for

1215
01:02:45,400 --> 01:02:48,240
Speaker 2: what it was intended to, which is to build one

1216
01:02:48,280 --> 01:02:51,720
Speaker 2: of the most wonderful universities in the country in Houston, Texas.

1217
01:02:52,400 --> 01:02:56,680
Speaker 2: So William Marshrice comes away from this. There is the

1218
01:02:56,800 --> 01:03:00,240
Speaker 2: legacy of of course, racism and not wanting to have

1219
01:03:00,320 --> 01:03:04,360
Speaker 2: black students there. Ultimately he is given back a school

1220
01:03:04,480 --> 01:03:07,920
Speaker 2: that is outstanding that almost never happened. It came so

1221
01:03:08,080 --> 01:03:11,040
Speaker 2: close to not happening. The richness of that is incredible.

1222
01:03:11,240 --> 01:03:12,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, that history is just amazing.

1223
01:03:13,240 --> 01:03:15,560
Speaker 3: In terms of of course I've heard of Rice University,

1224
01:03:15,560 --> 01:03:19,160
Speaker 3: but it's usually within the NA football setting.

1225
01:03:19,640 --> 01:03:20,560
Speaker 4: Than anything else.

1226
01:03:20,720 --> 01:03:24,240
Speaker 3: But to know that this homicide or this murder trial

1227
01:03:24,400 --> 01:03:28,840
Speaker 3: and all the shenanigans that were going on really could

1228
01:03:28,880 --> 01:03:32,000
Speaker 3: have prevented that university from existing. That's just where it's

1229
01:03:32,040 --> 01:03:35,640
Speaker 3: so interesting and fun to dig into these old cases

1230
01:03:35,640 --> 01:03:38,680
Speaker 3: because you learn so much, you know, in terms of

1231
01:03:38,800 --> 01:03:40,240
Speaker 3: how things are existing today.

1232
01:03:40,320 --> 01:03:48,920
Speaker 4: Well it's based on this type of backdrop. Well, I

1233
01:03:48,960 --> 01:03:49,360
Speaker 4: have to bed.

1234
01:03:49,440 --> 01:03:52,080
Speaker 3: When you first sent me sort of just that three

1235
01:03:52,160 --> 01:03:55,640
Speaker 3: sentences of the overview of this case, it was like, okay,

1236
01:03:55,640 --> 01:04:00,400
Speaker 3: so we're dealing with a will and maybe chloroform. Wasn't

1237
01:04:00,440 --> 01:04:02,880
Speaker 3: exactly sure how this case was going to play out

1238
01:04:03,000 --> 01:04:05,560
Speaker 3: and not sure how much I could contribute to it,

1239
01:04:05,600 --> 01:04:08,640
Speaker 3: but it was like, oh, there's a lot of backstory

1240
01:04:08,800 --> 01:04:12,520
Speaker 3: that really is compelling about well, this is what happened,

1241
01:04:12,600 --> 01:04:14,240
Speaker 3: you know, and I think the jury got it right.

1242
01:04:14,480 --> 01:04:17,840
Speaker 2: Well I'm excited because I loved hearing all of your

1243
01:04:17,880 --> 01:04:20,080
Speaker 2: perspective on all this, because again, that was the whole

1244
01:04:20,120 --> 01:04:22,520
Speaker 2: point of doing this was do we think they got

1245
01:04:22,560 --> 01:04:24,600
Speaker 2: it right, and do we think they got it wrong?

1246
01:04:24,680 --> 01:04:28,040
Speaker 2: And what would we have done differently? So that's exactly

1247
01:04:28,080 --> 01:04:29,400
Speaker 2: what I was hoping to get out of it. And

1248
01:04:29,640 --> 01:04:32,600
Speaker 2: my goal is I love twists and turns. I don't

1249
01:04:32,720 --> 01:04:37,600
Speaker 2: like boring, straight shot stories. I like surprising things, and

1250
01:04:37,800 --> 01:04:40,840
Speaker 2: I like to have details and to have characters that

1251
01:04:40,880 --> 01:04:43,880
Speaker 2: we can really come to life. And William marsh Rice

1252
01:04:43,960 --> 01:04:46,640
Speaker 2: was not the perfect character, but boy, his life was

1253
01:04:46,680 --> 01:04:49,439
Speaker 2: interesting and it was really fun retelling it. So thank

1254
01:04:49,480 --> 01:04:51,640
Speaker 2: you for that journey, Paul Holes. I can't wait for

1255
01:04:51,720 --> 01:04:52,360
Speaker 2: next week.

1256
01:04:52,440 --> 01:04:54,560
Speaker 3: So what I'm gathering is is you're going to be

1257
01:04:54,600 --> 01:04:57,280
Speaker 3: surprising me each week with the story.

1258
01:04:57,840 --> 01:04:59,600
Speaker 1: Okay, you should be surprised if I.

1259
01:04:59,560 --> 01:05:02,600
Speaker 2: Don't prize you is what I'm doing, what I'm talking about.

1260
01:05:03,640 --> 01:05:05,320
Speaker 4: I'm looking forward to it. This was great.

1261
01:05:05,480 --> 01:05:06,360
Speaker 1: Me too, Me too.

1262
01:05:10,320 --> 01:05:13,600
Speaker 2: This has been an exactly right production for our Sources

1263
01:05:13,600 --> 01:05:17,160
Speaker 2: and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot com slash Buried

1264
01:05:17,200 --> 01:05:18,200
Speaker 2: Bones sources.

1265
01:05:18,440 --> 01:05:20,760
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

1266
01:05:21,040 --> 01:05:23,920
Speaker 3: Research by Maren mcclashan and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1267
01:05:24,080 --> 01:05:26,440
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ryo Baum.

1268
01:05:26,640 --> 01:05:28,920
Speaker 4: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1269
01:05:29,160 --> 01:05:31,200
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1270
01:05:31,480 --> 01:05:35,600
Speaker 3: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and Daniel Kramer.

1271
01:05:35,880 --> 01:05:39,240
Speaker 2: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1272
01:05:39,360 --> 01:05:40,120
Speaker 2: Buried Bones.

1273
01:05:40,200 --> 01:05:43,040
Speaker 3: Pod Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a

1274
01:05:43,080 --> 01:05:45,480
Speaker 3: Gilded Age story of murder and the race of decode

1275
01:05:45,480 --> 01:05:48,000
Speaker 3: the criminal mind, is available for pre order now

1276
01:05:48,320 --> 01:05:52,600
Speaker 2: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, my life solving America's

1277
01:05:52,600 --> 01:05:54,680
Speaker 2: cold cases, is also available now