1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:02,880 Speaker 1: Alsome Media. 2 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:08,760 Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to it could happen here. I'm here 3 00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 2: to ask you if you can imagine a world where 4 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:18,360 Speaker 2: national borders don't define our identities. This internationalist idea has 5 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 2: historically been known as cosmopolitanism, and it has some deep roots, 6 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 2: including interestingly, some connection to anarchism, and of course that's 7 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 2: what we're seeking to explore here today. I'm joined once 8 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 2: again by the one and only. 9 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:36,959 Speaker 3: It's James James Stout. Thanks for having me, Andrew, I'm 10 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:37,880 Speaker 3: excited about this one. 11 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:40,800 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. I'm really excited to have 12 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:44,160 Speaker 2: this conversation. Are you familiar with cosmopolitanism? 13 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, and like, look, if there gets a more broad 14 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:52,199 Speaker 3: sphere of like anarchist internationalism, it is something I'm very 15 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:54,280 Speaker 3: interested in, right, Like, we had an interview on the 16 00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 3: show maybe two weeks ago, for a few weeks ago, 17 00:00:57,120 --> 00:01:01,520 Speaker 3: and people hear this with people explicitly calling internationalists fighting 18 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:04,559 Speaker 3: in Myanmar. Of course, I've spent time in re Java 19 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:08,400 Speaker 3: and with internationalists there, so like internationalism is something I'm 20 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:10,040 Speaker 3: really interested in for sure. 21 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:14,119 Speaker 2: For sure, I think it's a very compelling and inspiring idea, 22 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:17,840 Speaker 2: especially in a world that lacks many of those ideas. 23 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 2: At its core, cosmopolitanism is just the belief that all 24 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:24,959 Speaker 2: human beings belong to the same shared moral and political 25 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:30,440 Speaker 2: community that transcends national, cultural, and political boundaries. In the 26 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:35,080 Speaker 2: book Cosmopolitanism, Ethics and the Wilders Strangers, philosopher Kwame Anthony 27 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 2: Appia describes cosmopolitanism as quote two strands that intertwine in 28 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:43,440 Speaker 2: the notion of cosmopolitanism. One is the idea that we 29 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 2: have obligations to others, obligations that stretch beyond those to 30 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 2: whom we are related by the ties of kith and kin, 31 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 2: or even the more formal ties of shared citizenship. The 32 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 2: other is that we take seriously the value not just 33 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 2: of human life, but of particular human lives, which means 34 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 2: taken an interest in the practices and believe at land 35 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:05,280 Speaker 2: them significance. People are different, the Costopolitan knows, and there's 36 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:08,079 Speaker 2: much to learn from our differences. Because there are so 37 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:11,960 Speaker 2: many human possibilities worth exploring. We neither expect nor desire 38 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:14,960 Speaker 2: that every person or every society should converge on a 39 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:18,640 Speaker 2: single mode of life. Whatever obligations are to others or 40 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:21,120 Speaker 2: theirs to us, they often have the rights to go 41 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:25,760 Speaker 2: their own way, so basically, we have obligations to others 42 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 2: beyond just our immediate affiliations, and that human diversity is 43 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:32,640 Speaker 2: something to be valued, not just tolerated. So it's not 44 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 2: the idea of assimilating all of humanity into one singular 45 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:42,960 Speaker 2: culture or society or government. Is the idea of recognizing 46 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:47,840 Speaker 2: and embracing the diversity of humans, but recognizing our shared 47 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 2: affinity all the same. There are a couple of different 48 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 2: versions of cosmopolitanism. There's moral cosmopolitanism, or the idea that 49 00:02:56,240 --> 00:03:00,200 Speaker 2: all humans have equal moral worth. There's political cosmopolitanism, the 50 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:04,919 Speaker 2: idea that global governance or international institutions should supersede national borders. 51 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 2: And then there's cultural cosmopolitanism, which is the blending in 52 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 2: exchange of cultures through migration, trade, and shared histories. But 53 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 2: cosmopolitanism fully embraced has I would say an inherent tens 54 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:21,639 Speaker 2: with power, especially nationalism, the states, and capitalism. And while 55 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 2: it's true that liberal cosmopolitanism relies on global institutions like 56 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 2: the United Nations and reinforces hierarchies, anarchist cosmopolitanism envisions a 57 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 2: world where solidarity, cooperation, and mutual aid emerge from below 58 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 2: through free association, rather than being imposed from above. So 59 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 2: today we'll be unpacking the history of cosmopolitanism, how anarchists 60 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 2: have engaged with the topic, and why it remains somewhat 61 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 2: of a battleground today. Yes, the term itself comes from 62 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 2: the Greek cosmopolities, which means citizen of the world. The 63 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 2: earliest particulation of this idea is often attributed to Diogenes 64 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 2: of Sinope, who is a Synic philosopher who, when asked 65 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 2: where he came from, simply replied, I'm a citizen of 66 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 2: the world. According to Martha Nusbaum, Greek stoics like Xeno 67 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 2: of Citium, Seneca, and Marcus Aurelius expanded on this idea, 68 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:23,720 Speaker 2: arguing that humanity shares a universal reason and should live 69 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 2: in accordance with nature, not artificial divisions of state or tribe. 70 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 2: Of course, many of these philosophers didn't have any issue 71 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 2: with patriarchy or slavery in Greece, so there is some 72 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 2: inconsistency in their concept of a shared humanity. 73 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:41,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, the two counts as human I guess, isn't it like? 74 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:43,080 Speaker 3: Which is pretty bleak. 75 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:47,039 Speaker 2: Indeed, But let's pass forward a bit. During the Enlightenment 76 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:51,080 Speaker 2: we see a more structured political philosophy of cosmopolitanism. Emergent 77 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:55,560 Speaker 2: Emanuel Kant was one of its most famous proponents. In 78 00:04:55,600 --> 00:05:01,040 Speaker 2: the book Perpetual Piece, Can't imagine a cosmopolitan condition where individuals, 79 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:04,560 Speaker 2: not just states, had universal rights and where a global 80 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:08,919 Speaker 2: federation of free republics would ensure peace and cooperation. However, 81 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 2: his version of cosson Politanism still relied on legal structures 82 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 2: and state based governance. Another Nightman thinker associated with cosmopolitanism 83 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:21,160 Speaker 2: was Dni Dederu, who criticized colonialism and argued for a 84 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:25,040 Speaker 2: cultural exchange free from that kind of domination. He also 85 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 2: argued against monarchy, the church, and aristocratic privileges, as they 86 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:33,160 Speaker 2: were obstacles to a truly free and universal human community, 87 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 2: which then brings us to the French Revolution, which brought 88 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:41,239 Speaker 2: these ideas into the real world. Revolutionaries declared the Rights 89 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 2: of Man and of the Citizen, which proclaims universal rights 90 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:48,479 Speaker 2: beyond national or social status, but the revolution soon became 91 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 2: entangled with nationalism, particularly under the Acabins, who suppressed dissent 92 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:57,719 Speaker 2: and waged wars in the name of France. Meanwhile, the 93 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 2: Haitian Revolution provided a different example of liberation. In practice, 94 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 2: enslaved Africans, inspired by the French Revolution's rhetoric of liberty inequality, 95 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 2: revolted against French colonial rule and established the first free 96 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 2: Black republic. The revolutionaries, led by to Saint Levitire, argued 97 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:19,159 Speaker 2: that liberty was a universal human right, not one limited 98 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:22,919 Speaker 2: to European citizens, and declared Haiti a refuge to all 99 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 2: enslaved persons. But despite its radical implications, the Haitian Revolution 100 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 2: was largely ignored or outright opposed by European powers. Their 101 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 2: so called enlightenment only extended to Europe, ignoring our racial 102 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 2: and colonial realities. We also see in this time the 103 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:55,359 Speaker 2: emergence of nationalism, which on the one hand promoted self 104 00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 2: determination for omopressed nations, but on the other hand saw 105 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 2: the nations state as a superior form of political organization. 106 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 2: So anarchists were among the earliest critics of nationalism. Patrons 107 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:11,240 Speaker 2: of Pradawn, for instance, rejected both the nation state and 108 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 2: centralized cosmopolitan governance, instead advocating for federation, a frequently misunderstood 109 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 2: concept that refers in anarchist literature to a decentralized network 110 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:27,920 Speaker 2: of freely associated individuals and groups working in solidarity. Similarly, 111 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 2: Mikhil Bcunen attacked nationalism as a tool of ruling elites, 112 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 2: arguing that states used national identities of press, class struggle, 113 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 2: and international solidarity. Bi Cunin did back national liberation movements, 114 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 2: but he understood the danger of nationalism as a force 115 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 2: that often replaces foreign rulers with homegrown oppressors. Instead, Bercunen 116 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 2: promoted anarchist internationalism, where workers and oppressed peoples across borders 117 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 2: would unite against both capitalists and state powers. By contrast, 118 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 2: the Bolsheviks would eventually developed the idea of socialism in 119 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 2: one country, and the ever paranoid Stalin would famously deride 120 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 2: Jewish intellectuals as quote rootless cosmopolitans. This, of course aligned 121 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 2: him with the rest of Europe's nationalists in their anti semitism, 122 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 2: inaccurate cricketerization of cosmopolitanism as opposed to cultural identity or 123 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 2: sovereignty and ramid defense of national borders. Honestly, I would 124 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 2: not be surprised if Trump or Putin used some equivalent 125 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 2: to rule less cosmopolitanism today. 126 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I did see. It was like a pro 127 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:40,960 Speaker 3: tramp account. I guess constantly or unconstantly paraphrasing Stalin. 128 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 4: This week, so that was great. 129 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 3: Really well, they say it's like, how many divisions does 130 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:49,600 Speaker 3: the judge command? Which is a I think there might 131 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:51,720 Speaker 3: be a quote from Stalin if it's not quote to paraphrase, right, 132 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 3: But in this case, it's a reference to the attempts 133 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:57,920 Speaker 3: by a district court judge in GC to block the 134 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:01,200 Speaker 3: rendition of people to US ale were accused of being 135 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:07,959 Speaker 3: members of various gangs and Miroslature being the two main ones. 136 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:11,960 Speaker 2: Yes, so just being expelled. What's the connection to Stalin? 137 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:12,200 Speaker 4: Though? 138 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:16,679 Speaker 3: The quote how many divisions does the judge command? Let me, 139 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:20,200 Speaker 3: I'm pretty sure how many divisions does the pope command? 140 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 3: Was the starting quite, that's right. So like it's referencing 141 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 3: this idea that like might makes right and like that, 142 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:28,120 Speaker 3: you know, if you have the bar of the state, 143 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 3: then you're not accountable to morally or even even within 144 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 3: the confines of the state, like separation of powers that 145 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 3: we're supposed to happen in the US, right, Like if 146 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 3: you have the monopoly on coercive violence and you're no 147 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 3: longer constrained by those things. 148 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 2: Right, yeah, I see, I see. So of course, Alec, 149 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 2: I suppose all those things they appouse. What is happening now, 150 00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:56,120 Speaker 2: and they oppose what was happening then, you know. From 151 00:09:56,120 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 2: its inception, anarchism has been an internationalist movement, rejecting the 152 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:04,960 Speaker 2: artificial borders imposed by state and champion in global solidarity. 153 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:10,319 Speaker 2: Unlike Marxist internationalism, which has often relied on the centralized 154 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:16,199 Speaker 2: structures of the first, second, or Third internationals, anarchists emphasized decentralized, 155 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:20,720 Speaker 2: horizontal networks of struggle that connected workers, revolutionaries, and stateless 156 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 2: peoples across continents. The anarchist Saint Emer Internationale, which ran 157 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 2: from eighteen seventy two to eighteen seventy seven, was one 158 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 2: such network. As discussed by Lucian van der Waldt and 159 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 2: Schmidt in Black Flame, that group explicitly rejected nationalism and 160 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 2: state power, and throughout history anarchists worked a bridge linguistic, cultural, 161 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:48,839 Speaker 2: and national divides from multi lingual anarchist newspapers in the 162 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:53,240 Speaker 2: nineteenth and twentieth centuries such as Laprotester Argentina, der Camp 163 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:58,040 Speaker 2: in Germany and The Libertaire in France, through transnational cynicalist 164 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:00,680 Speaker 2: movements like the Industrial Workers of the World World, which 165 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:03,600 Speaker 2: organized workers across race, nationality, and language. In the early 166 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 2: twentieth century and including contemporary mutual aid networks where anarchists 167 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:13,080 Speaker 2: coordinates across borders to support refugees, disaster relief, and addigenous 168 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 2: land struggles. Anarchist networks, contrary to popular belief, often extended 169 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 2: beyond Europe into North Africa, Asia and Latin America, where 170 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:26,679 Speaker 2: anti colonial and labor struggles intertwined with anarchist thought. If 171 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:28,960 Speaker 2: you're curious, by the way, about the anarchist histories of 172 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:31,439 Speaker 2: Egypt or the rest of Latin America, they could check 173 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 2: out my series on it right here on the canappen 174 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:37,320 Speaker 2: Air podcast. And if you've listened to that series, you'll 175 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 2: know that because anarchists were constantly persecuted, exile became a 176 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:47,200 Speaker 2: defining experience which further reinforced the internationalism. Folks like Michail 177 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 2: Bi Cunan, Pieter Kropotkin, and Erikomana Testa moved across continents, 178 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 2: spreading anarchist ideas and connecting struggles. Myl test in particular, 179 00:11:56,800 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 2: was basically a common San Diego. You know, he touched 180 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 2: multiple continents over the course of his life. So boyut 181 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:07,200 Speaker 2: the late nineteenth century anarchists like Groulph Rocker developed an 182 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:12,120 Speaker 2: alternative to both statist nationalism and liberal cosmopolitanism, which sorts 183 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:16,319 Speaker 2: of balance cultural diversity with global solidarity from below. Rocker 184 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 2: argued that people should be free to maintain their cultural 185 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:23,600 Speaker 2: traditions without being bound to the state or nationalist identity. 186 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:27,439 Speaker 2: So liberal costopolitanism was pushing a global order through state 187 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 2: led interventions, international institutions, and legal frameworks. And while this 188 00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 2: form of costopolitanism has led to some games on people 189 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:40,719 Speaker 2: in human rights, international refugee protections, and anti genocide treaties, well, 190 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:42,880 Speaker 2: for one, we see the failures of these institutions and 191 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 2: practice daily, and for two, they ultimately reinforced the state 192 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:49,920 Speaker 2: power that creates so much harm, rather than dismantling it. 193 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 2: The UN and the WTO often uphold the interest of 194 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:57,440 Speaker 2: powerful states above and before the international laws and obligations, 195 00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:02,200 Speaker 2: whilst sidelining grassroots movements. While liberal costopolitanism sits on its 196 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 2: hands waiting for elit driven reforms to the system, anarchists 197 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 2: engage in direct action to support migrants and other marginalized 198 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:13,200 Speaker 2: folks without waiting for such reform. I have to give 199 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:14,960 Speaker 2: a shout out here, of course, to the No Borders 200 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:17,840 Speaker 2: network and also a shout out to the work that 201 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:20,400 Speaker 2: you do, James on the side. 202 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:20,920 Speaker 3: Thank you. Yeah. 203 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, I've see a lot more people than me doing 204 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:24,040 Speaker 4: it of course. 205 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 2: So the sad part is, even if it started with 206 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:34,160 Speaker 2: some noble ideal, the concept of liberal cost of Politanism 207 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 2: today doesn't so much manifest in the freedom of people, 208 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 2: but moreso in the freedom of markets and money, the 209 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 2: globalization of markets and money. So we will bring McDonald's 210 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 2: Netflix to your country, but you can't come to our country, 211 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:52,320 Speaker 2: or will kill you. 212 00:13:52,880 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's about it. 213 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:07,920 Speaker 3: It was really interesting to like the moment I sort 214 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 3: of became aware of libertarian left politics was in the 215 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:13,840 Speaker 3: early two thousands in the context of the movement against 216 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 3: like the g eight as it was then and at 217 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 3: the time it would be referred to in the legacy 218 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 3: media as like anti globalization right, which I don't think 219 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:26,720 Speaker 3: it ever was right by definition. I think it was 220 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 3: very global, Like you had people from all around the 221 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:32,360 Speaker 3: world tending these protests and rallies and speeches as such, 222 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 3: Like it was a very global movement. The problem was 223 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 3: not with globalization Costopolitanism internationalism. It was with the nature 224 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 3: of neoliberal capitalist globalization, which let capital move and stop 225 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:43,760 Speaker 3: people from moving. 226 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 2: Exactly. It's some old opposition sugg as the free reign 227 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 2: of exploitas across the globe. 228 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:52,240 Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly. 229 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 3: We let people take their money and employ people at 230 00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:59,000 Speaker 3: lower wages, but God forbid those people ever want better 231 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 3: for themselves, or to come somewhere where they can materially 232 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:04,320 Speaker 3: benefit themselves doing the same labor in a different nation, 233 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:05,000 Speaker 3: for instance. 234 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 2: Yeah. And to be honest with you, I've never really 235 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:12,440 Speaker 2: been a respect of borders. I think they're just I 236 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 2: think they are really really blatantly foolish imposition. I don't 237 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 2: even think you need to be a radical to see 238 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:25,000 Speaker 2: the issue with this idea that your one point has 239 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 2: to determine your entire future. Yeah, that some people in 240 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:32,960 Speaker 2: the past could cut up the earth and then decide 241 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 2: where you can roam freely. 242 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think anyone. I see a lot more from 243 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 3: people who are not by any means radical or even 244 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 3: on the left, like this, like within Europe, right within 245 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:47,480 Speaker 3: the Shanngen area, which the UK has decided to remove 246 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:50,600 Speaker 3: itself from for reasons that are largely racism. 247 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:52,160 Speaker 4: Like we could move freely. 248 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 3: When I grew up, my identity and experience was much 249 00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 3: more European than necessarily British. Right, I could go for 250 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:02,000 Speaker 3: the weekend to Spain if I wanted to, or France 251 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:03,400 Speaker 3: and flights were cheap then. 252 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 4: So it did. 253 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 3: Like I used to get on Friday night, take a 254 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:09,080 Speaker 3: train to Belgium, raise my bike in Belgium and come 255 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 3: back on Sunday night, very very often, and like you 256 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:14,960 Speaker 3: see it here too in San Diego, where like the 257 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 3: border is just a line and a delay. But for 258 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 3: most people, like we were a very binational community. Unfortunately, 259 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 3: the one way that that manifests itself is that the 260 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 3: cost of living in San Diego compares the average wage 261 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:33,320 Speaker 3: is vastly disparate because we have this over pressure valve 262 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 3: where like people can't afford it here, they can live 263 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 3: across the border where the cost of living is cheaper, 264 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 3: and that allows people to exploit working class people in 265 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:43,000 Speaker 3: both contexts sadly. Right. 266 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, as you mentioned the UK, by the way, I'm 267 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 2: not sure if you've heard the news, but Trenidad has 268 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 2: recently been imposed visa requirements by the UK for fuck's sake. Yeah, really, 269 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:01,680 Speaker 2: thankfully we still have shanngin area access. Yeah, but just 270 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 2: recently the UK was like due to Yeah, the usual 271 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:10,520 Speaker 2: excuse people are using the asylum seeking system that they're 272 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:14,600 Speaker 2: not removed our visa exemption, so our colonizers have now 273 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:18,359 Speaker 2: decided that, you know, we don't want you to move 274 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:20,400 Speaker 2: free in our country. We want you to pay. And 275 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 2: visas are not cheap theyan ever cheap, especially when there's 276 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:26,680 Speaker 2: no guarantee, no other than being accepted. Yep, it makes 277 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:28,719 Speaker 2: it all the more frustrating. 278 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:32,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, and like this just comes after the British government 279 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:36,879 Speaker 3: attempting to deport Africribbean migrant Kames, part of what we 280 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 3: call the wind rush generation, which is just one of 281 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:43,800 Speaker 3: the most disgusting and like, yeah, it just just wanted 282 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 3: one of the most venal and pathetic things I've ever 283 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:47,760 Speaker 3: seen a government do, Like these people who the UK 284 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:50,440 Speaker 3: asked to come so that it could rebuild this economy 285 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:53,240 Speaker 3: after the Second World War, and then taking advantage of 286 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:55,120 Speaker 3: the fact that at that time there was no process 287 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 3: for regularitation and then trying to deport these people who 288 00:17:57,800 --> 00:17:59,120 Speaker 3: have lived their whole lives in the UK. 289 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 4: It's just horrific. 290 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:05,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, it is. It's horrific, it's frustrating, it's infury, it's 291 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:06,680 Speaker 2: in really Yeah. 292 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:09,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, it makes me really angry, like if we didn't 293 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:12,080 Speaker 3: have a wind Rewst generation not that like you need 294 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:14,359 Speaker 3: like popular music to justify their existence as part of 295 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:15,960 Speaker 3: our community, and they should be able to stay. But 296 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:18,679 Speaker 3: we wouldn't have punk music if if we wouldn't have 297 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 3: scar music. We like so much of what is like 298 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:26,720 Speaker 3: integral to even like quote unquote British culture. It actually 299 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:29,680 Speaker 3: came from these people because they are British and they 300 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 3: belong there just. 301 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:31,960 Speaker 4: As much as anyone else. 302 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 2: Yeah. 303 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 3: I used to teach a class about music and colonial 304 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:37,920 Speaker 3: culture and colonialism, which is why that comes to mind. 305 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 2: I actually missed an opportunity to go to the UK 306 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:45,800 Speaker 2: earlier this year. I didn't want to pay the cost 307 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:50,399 Speaker 2: to fly to go at that point in time. I 308 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:52,640 Speaker 2: know I deeply regrets it because I'm like I could 309 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:56,119 Speaker 2: have gone. Honestly, I think if you're the UK and 310 00:18:56,160 --> 00:19:00,159 Speaker 2: your your country has still learn so much, like I 311 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:05,640 Speaker 2: think the UK has the least right or justification out 312 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:09,240 Speaker 2: of any country if you had to concede that a 313 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 2: country should be lost, I don't. I don't give any 314 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:14,359 Speaker 2: country that concession, but if you had to give that concession, 315 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 2: you could be last to receive that concession as far 316 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:18,920 Speaker 2: as I'm concerned. You don't get to go on roam 317 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:22,240 Speaker 2: across the entire planet and then shut yourself off. Yeah, 318 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:24,200 Speaker 2: you don't get to go on steel and pill fall 319 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:27,320 Speaker 2: from across the world, shuffle it all into your national 320 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 2: museum and then block people from access it. 321 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 4: Yeah. 322 00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:34,520 Speaker 3: It is just like it's just the most clear and 323 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:39,080 Speaker 3: pathetic like two level standard or whatever, and it's I mean, 324 00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:41,640 Speaker 3: the UK has a very I'm sorry you didn't get 325 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 3: to visit in one sense, and I'm sure we have 326 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:45,480 Speaker 3: lots of listeners who are in the UK. Every time 327 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 3: I'm home, I feel this like profound sense of like 328 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 3: post colonial melancholy that the UK it's just sort of 329 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:54,760 Speaker 3: it's getting worse and worse and worse. 330 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:56,480 Speaker 4: And the way. 331 00:19:56,440 --> 00:20:00,159 Speaker 3: Britain is responding is with our government blaming everyone one 332 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:01,159 Speaker 3: else and. 333 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:04,720 Speaker 2: Like trying to strip posterity. 334 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, like stealing everything they can just mess Yeah. 335 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:11,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think frustration for me as well as that 336 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:15,000 Speaker 2: it's not to watch the country itself, although I would 337 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:18,280 Speaker 2: have loved to have visited like Scotland and you know, 338 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:21,600 Speaker 2: Whels and that kind of thing, but and all the 339 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:24,600 Speaker 2: stuff there is to see in London. But The biggest 340 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:27,600 Speaker 2: frustration for me is that it's a it's a connection point. 341 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:30,000 Speaker 2: You know, when you impose a visa like that, you 342 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:33,040 Speaker 2: block people's connections other areas. One of the few direct 343 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:39,760 Speaker 2: flights outside of this hemisphere, you know, to the European 344 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:42,840 Speaker 2: and African hemisphere is through a flight to the UK. 345 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:45,720 Speaker 2: And so by adding that in position, it's like it's 346 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:48,080 Speaker 2: like the world feels like it's being closed. 347 00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:48,879 Speaker 3: Yeah. 348 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:49,840 Speaker 4: Yeah, you can see that. 349 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 2: One more where there was almost a time in the 350 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:54,919 Speaker 2: recent past where it felt like or the world was 351 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:57,919 Speaker 2: opening up to people, you know, with the Internet, the 352 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:00,199 Speaker 2: rise of the Internet, and then you had, you know, 353 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:04,119 Speaker 2: the introduction of things like the Shangan Agreement. Our access 354 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 2: the Shangan area was reairly recent I think it was 355 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:09,959 Speaker 2: twenty fifteen we got that access. Yeah, okay, But to 356 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:12,000 Speaker 2: go from that point in to like just so quickly, 357 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:16,199 Speaker 2: you know, the tied shifts. So now there's extremely hostile 358 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:21,800 Speaker 2: global order towards something as fundamental as the movement of people. 359 00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:24,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it definitely. 360 00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 3: We definitely are entering it in like an era where 361 00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:32,359 Speaker 3: things are becoming more closed off again than many of 362 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 3: us grew up with, right, many of us you know, 363 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 3: I said, what most of my experience that I can 364 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:40,320 Speaker 3: remember was being able to move freely through Europe, and 365 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:43,280 Speaker 3: that's not the case anymore for British as citizens. Yeah, 366 00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:45,520 Speaker 3: like it's getting visas and everything else is getting harder 367 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:48,360 Speaker 3: and harder to move around the world. And despite the 368 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:52,840 Speaker 3: Internet somewhat connecting us, like, our physical mobility is certainly 369 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:54,000 Speaker 3: much more limited. 370 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:58,359 Speaker 2: Indeed, I think the idea of cost and Paulson is 371 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 2: getting back to it, I think it's valuable. I think, 372 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:05,160 Speaker 2: you know, the idea that we have obligations to others 373 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:09,159 Speaker 2: beyond just our mediate affiliations is important. You know that 374 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:11,720 Speaker 2: human diversity is going to be valued, not just tolerated. 375 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:16,320 Speaker 2: That's fantastic. Carl Levy, an anarchist scholar who wrote two 376 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:19,040 Speaker 2: pieces on cosmopolitanism that a link in the show notes, 377 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 2: has argued that anarchism's history offers a third way between 378 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:28,320 Speaker 2: the hierarchical globalism of liberal cosmopolitanism, which relies on state 379 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:34,040 Speaker 2: driven global governance, and exclusionary nationalism, which weaponizes identity and borders, 380 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:37,200 Speaker 2: often in service to the far right, and that third 381 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:40,720 Speaker 2: way that anarchism presents, not third way in the sense 382 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 2: of fascism. Third way, in the sense of anarchist possibilities, 383 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:49,520 Speaker 2: is a kind of federated pluralism, the web of self 384 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 2: organized groups that interact freely without a central authority. This 385 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:57,200 Speaker 2: version isn't just theoretical. We've seen it in recent history 386 00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:01,200 Speaker 2: through anti globalization protests, the Occupying movement, the Square movements 387 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 2: in Egypt, Spain and beyond and so flowed. They show 388 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:08,840 Speaker 2: the potential, not yet fully realized, for diverse place based 389 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:14,159 Speaker 2: struggles that remain connected through mutuality and transnational solidarity. We 390 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:18,400 Speaker 2: have to avoid this sort of abstract universalism that can 391 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 2: be found in cosmopolitan thought. We must incorporate decolonial struggles 392 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:26,879 Speaker 2: and crown cosmopolitan practice in the voluntary cooperation of people 393 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:31,400 Speaker 2: acted in solidarity across differences. Ultimately, the question isn't whether 394 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 2: anarchists should engage a cosmopolitanism, because they always have. The 395 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:39,960 Speaker 2: real question is how anarchists can cultivate a cosmopolitanism that 396 00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 2: is truly liberatory, when the connect struggles without eraise and difference, 397 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 2: foster solidarity without enforcing uniformity, and builds a world where 398 00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:56,399 Speaker 2: cooperation and not domination, defines our relationships. That's what they 399 00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:59,159 Speaker 2: have for today, or power to all the people. 400 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:06,800 Speaker 1: It could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 401 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:10,040 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 402 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:13,680 Speaker 1: coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 403 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:17,320 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 404 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:19,679 Speaker 1: now find sources for it could Happen Here listed directly 405 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 1: in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.