1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,519 Speaker 1: Does tail and aw cause autism? You're gonna find out 2 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:16,720 Speaker 1: today on the David Rutherford Show. I'm here today with 3 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:20,440 Speaker 1: investigative journalists from the Daily Caller Emily Copp, who dropped 4 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:26,439 Speaker 1: an article that absolutely just melted my brain around this 5 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:28,320 Speaker 1: tail and aw autism thing. 6 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 2: So, Emily, thank you so much for coming on. 7 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 1: Is this story true and is there a greater conspiracy 8 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 1: that we're unaware of? 9 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:45,559 Speaker 3: As you know, mind melting as this story is, it 10 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 3: is absolutely factual. Uh, you know, we at the Daily 11 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 3: Color News Foundation take factual reporting very seriously. This went through, 12 00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 3: I'll be honest, a bunch of edits that was sort 13 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 3: of fresh writing for me as a reporter that wanted 14 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:03,800 Speaker 3: the story out there, but we needed to make sure 15 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:05,640 Speaker 3: that we had all of our ducks in a row 16 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:09,240 Speaker 3: because of course, this story has massive implications. 17 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 4: But I read. 18 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 3: Hundreds of documents related to ken View, the maker of 19 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:20,600 Speaker 3: tail and all, and in this most recent story, looked 20 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 3: at FDA epidemiology report after FDA epidemiology report, several memos 21 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:34,000 Speaker 3: and they all had the same conclusion going back to 22 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 3: twenty sixteen, that we need to issue some sort of 23 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 3: communication to pregnant women about the risk of taking this 24 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 3: drug in pregnancy, and instead FDA higher ups suppressed the 25 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 3: recommendation year after a year. 26 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:50,720 Speaker 1: I mean, that was the part in your article that 27 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:53,279 Speaker 1: really just lapped out at me, and it was this section. 28 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 1: I'm just going to read it verbatim. An internal memo 29 00:01:57,000 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 1: reveals that the agency first began examining a seed of 30 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:04,320 Speaker 1: NFL in pregnancy eleven years ago in May twenty fourteen, 31 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 1: after in April twenty fourteen study published in the Journal 32 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:12,080 Speaker 1: of American Medical Association raised concerns about the drug and 33 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 1: ADHD like behaviors, prompting its sole statement on the issue 34 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:21,119 Speaker 1: for the next decade, and in twenty fifteen FDA web 35 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:25,240 Speaker 1: page that acknowledging that quote the FDA is aware of 36 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 1: concerns end quote, inciting that single study. Less than two 37 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:34,360 Speaker 1: years later, in October twenty sixteen, FDA Senior medical Officer 38 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 1: Andrew Moseholder had a Mossholder had reviewed eight observational studies, 39 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:47,040 Speaker 1: with seven showing an association between aceta menafin and issues 40 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:53,080 Speaker 1: including attention deficits, delayed motor development, and autistic behaviors. When 41 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 1: we had the big press conference at the White House 42 00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:01,960 Speaker 1: with Kennedy, doctor Oz and the president. The pushback that 43 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 1: I saw media afterwards was citing this one report. 44 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:07,279 Speaker 2: It's one report. It's one report. 45 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 1: But what you're saying is that this senior medical after 46 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:18,240 Speaker 1: Andrew Moshholder, he reviewed eight other studies and there was 47 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:22,359 Speaker 1: a much greater consensus that this was going on. Can 48 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:27,000 Speaker 1: you talk through one how you found those what documents 49 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:33,920 Speaker 1: and then where you started to see the string of 50 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 1: I guess cover up is the best word to use, 51 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 1: or or you know, using tactical language to push it 52 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 1: down the road, so to speak. 53 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely, well. 54 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 3: I think one thing that we should know is that 55 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 3: one report was actually a what they call it menta analysis, 56 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:55,840 Speaker 3: So it looked at a bunch of different reports in 57 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:59,120 Speaker 3: the scientific literature, said okay, which ones meet this rigorous 58 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 3: criteria and summarize the findings of them. 59 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 4: And so that one Harvard report that Kennedy. 60 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 3: Cited in that a bunch of people, you know, as 61 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 3: you mentioned, were being critical of, was actually a summary 62 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 3: of a bunch of the scientific literature, which we can 63 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:19,279 Speaker 3: see from these internal FDA reports were accumulating over the 64 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:23,279 Speaker 3: last decade or so, and that very first report that 65 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 3: sort of kicked off FDA reviewing the evidence. It should 66 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:30,920 Speaker 3: be noted, was published in the second most prestigious pediatric 67 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 3: journal in the country, so this is in some pre 68 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 3: print that hasn't been peer reviewed. The rigorous science published 69 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:42,360 Speaker 3: in a journal that the FDA couldn't ignore. So the 70 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:48,080 Speaker 3: FDA launches this internal review of the science, and their 71 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:52,719 Speaker 3: top reviewer of drug safety for over the counter drugs 72 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 3: produces another meta analysis and shows the science is credible, 73 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 3: and he's he's very careful. He says, the association between 74 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 3: TAIL and all use and a parent neurodevelopmental damage is 75 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:13,839 Speaker 3: consistent across these studies, but it's not yet causal, so 76 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 3: we can't say for sure. The studies simply aren't uniform 77 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:21,479 Speaker 3: enough and they're not designed to suss out whether it's 78 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 3: the precise cause. But he says the association is consistent 79 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:28,039 Speaker 3: enough that we really need to start informing women about 80 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 3: the risk. We just need them to make informed decisions. 81 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:34,160 Speaker 3: At the same time, you know, we need to tell 82 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 3: them that these other over the counter painkillers have their 83 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 3: own risks, and that they shouldn't have high fevers and 84 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 3: you know, not be taking anything to treat their high fevers. 85 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 4: So he's just he's not. 86 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:48,839 Speaker 3: Calling for, you know, a public relations campaign against thailan 87 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 3: All or anything like that. He's just saying, we need 88 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 3: to we need to warn women about the potential for 89 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:54,480 Speaker 3: a risk. 90 00:05:56,520 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 4: And instead what happened is FDA did nothing. 91 00:05:59,839 --> 00:06:04,720 Speaker 3: They released one statement in twenty fifteen about a bunch 92 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 3: of different over the counterpain killers, and they say, we're 93 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:11,040 Speaker 3: aware of some concerns related to ADHD, and they cite 94 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:15,279 Speaker 3: that first report in the second most prestigious pediatric journal 95 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 3: in the country. As more and more studies accumulate and 96 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 3: as privately the FDA is reviewing these studies and finding 97 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:30,719 Speaker 3: them credible, FDA issues no further public communication. And so 98 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:35,159 Speaker 3: the documents that I reviewed, they're the internal FDA reports 99 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:38,800 Speaker 3: that were obtained via FOYA by this law firm that 100 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 3: launched a class action lawsuit against ken View. And the 101 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:45,240 Speaker 3: reason I started reading them is because, you know, I 102 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 3: talked to lead attorney for the plaintiffs for the parents 103 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 3: who feel that their children were affected by tail and 104 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 3: All use, and he was like sort of citing certain studies, 105 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:01,480 Speaker 3: and I was like, are those studies public? 106 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 4: Are those emails that you're mentioning public? 107 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 3: And he said, well, we obtained them in discovery or 108 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 3: via FOYA, and I said I would like to read them, 109 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:14,640 Speaker 3: and he said, are you sure. It's like hundreds of documents, 110 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 3: and I was like yes. 111 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:19,600 Speaker 4: So they just literally sent me their whole docket, whole docket. 112 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 3: They didn't point me to, you know, specific documents, and 113 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:25,080 Speaker 3: in fact, just for my own integrity as a journalist, 114 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 3: I didn't want to work too closely with the firm, 115 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 3: So I just read every single document that I could 116 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 3: get my hands on. And these these FDA reports clearly, 117 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 3: you know, stuck. 118 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 1: Out wow, I I you know, for for me, you know, 119 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:42,800 Speaker 1: as I looked and I thought, you know, one of 120 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 1: the things that is just really cool about your reporting 121 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 1: is that you do add in all of those those 122 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 1: counter arguments, right, it wasn't really clear how many doses 123 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 1: of tail and all were taken, you know, the the 124 00:07:56,760 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 1: amount of of how often were taken, you know, And 125 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 1: I thought that was brilliant reporting there. It was really 126 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 1: cool to see. But the other aspect, you know, to 127 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 1: reinforce what you're saying is, man, you know, when you 128 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 1: get access to something like a class action lawsuit, that's 129 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 1: got to be like gold for you as as an 130 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 1: investigated journalist. What what did you learn because some of 131 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:27,280 Speaker 1: the some of the documents that you did post we 132 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 1: were incredibly redacted. How much of what you got access 133 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:37,080 Speaker 1: to was redacted? Do you think there's incredibly there's a 134 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 1: lot more that needs to be unredacted. 135 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:44,200 Speaker 2: And hopefully you know, Kennedy will will you know. 136 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 1: You will hear more about this and as the hopefully 137 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 1: growing storm grows from your reporting, that they'll come out 138 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:54,440 Speaker 1: and release some of these what what did you find 139 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 1: in those documents? 140 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:00,800 Speaker 3: Well, first of all, I appreciate your praise of be 141 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 3: trying to be even handed on the science. That's something 142 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:06,720 Speaker 3: that we discussed a lot internally here at the Caller, 143 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 3: and I know that this is an important issue to 144 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:12,960 Speaker 3: so many families, and I want to make sure that 145 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 3: the science here isn't ironclad, but it is concerning enough 146 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:19,640 Speaker 3: that FDA, you know, scientists, rank and file scientists were 147 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 3: saying internally that we should issue some sort of warning 148 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 3: and FDA higher ups who you know, in many other 149 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:33,600 Speaker 3: instances of FDA scandals, like the opioid crisis, you know, 150 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 3: did the public relations bidding of the pharmaceutical industry. That 151 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:41,600 Speaker 3: same pattern to me appears to have occurred here where 152 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 3: where the concern about public relations and about a relationship 153 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:55,840 Speaker 3: to the pharmaceutical industry outweighed a concern about giving the 154 00:09:55,880 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 3: public full information, and that definitely plays. And then documents, 155 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 3: as you mentioned, there are a lot of redactions. One 156 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 3: of the reports states that fd's toxicology division did their 157 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:15,080 Speaker 3: own independent studies. So several of these epidemiology reports, they 158 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 3: were sort of collating and summarizing other papers, other scientific papers. 159 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:21,680 Speaker 3: But it turns out the FD did its own independent 160 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:29,000 Speaker 3: science and toxicology reports are basically animal studies that look 161 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 3: at the you know, toxicity of a particular drug, and 162 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 3: there are certain signals that you can look for in 163 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 3: mice to indicate that something is dangerous. For instance, there 164 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 3: are certain studies that show that mice. 165 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 4: And their. 166 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:51,440 Speaker 3: Litter when exposed to see to benifit, the mother stop 167 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:58,320 Speaker 3: nursing the infants, which could indicate, yeah, some sort of 168 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:03,520 Speaker 3: damage there. So what did the FDA find. What were 169 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:07,720 Speaker 3: their animal studies showing. We don't know because for some reason, 170 00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:10,679 Speaker 3: when the law firm submitted a foia to the FDA 171 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 3: to find these results, the FDA entirely redacted them. And 172 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 3: in my experience as an investigative reporter. Obviously I can't 173 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 3: say what's underneath those black bars, but in my experience 174 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 3: as an investigative reporter doing work on other issues like 175 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:32,120 Speaker 3: the origins of COVID and floying NIH, it's usually an 176 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:37,880 Speaker 3: inconvenient fact, right, or something someone's embarrassed of. And if 177 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 3: the science truly indicates that there is no risk here, 178 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:46,560 Speaker 3: I think that's something that the FDA should inform the 179 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:49,400 Speaker 3: public of. But if there is a concern, then the 180 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:50,720 Speaker 3: public deserves to know that. 181 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 2: Too, one hundred percent. I mean that's trust me. 182 00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:58,720 Speaker 1: I used to work for the Central Intelligence Agency, who 183 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 1: is probably the most notorious in terms of over a 184 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:09,040 Speaker 1: billion classified documents redactions at that scale. Right, we still 185 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:12,760 Speaker 1: haven't even gotten all the unredacted stuff from the Kennedy 186 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 1: assassination and all that, and you know, much less than 187 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:18,959 Speaker 1: every other scandal they've been involved in. Now, I'd like 188 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 1: to get into some some of the key players that 189 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 1: are involved in this whole thing, But before I do, 190 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 1: I just I would be remiss if I didn't just 191 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:31,839 Speaker 1: give props or one of our new sponsors an organization, 192 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 1: a university, a college that is really transforming the landscape 193 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:39,640 Speaker 1: right now, because you know, here's the deal. They they 194 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:44,960 Speaker 1: understand how many people are just mindlessly scrolling through their 195 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:49,719 Speaker 1: phones and on watching shows and streaming platforms, and they 196 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:52,760 Speaker 1: just seem to, you know, be you know, addicted to 197 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:56,679 Speaker 1: this mind numbing content. 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That's Hillsdale dot edu Ford slash David to register, 231 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 1: or click the link in the show notes Hillsdale dot 232 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:19,320 Speaker 1: edu Ford slash David. 233 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:21,560 Speaker 2: All Right, there were some key. 234 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 1: Players in this that really kind of jumped out at me, 235 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 1: and one was the former Food and Drug Administration Acting Commissioner, 236 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:34,080 Speaker 1: Janet Woodcock. Can you talk about her and what you 237 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:40,400 Speaker 1: found with her relationship to kind of the sequence of 238 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 1: this pr nightmare potentially that they had to manage. 239 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:46,760 Speaker 2: Yeah. 240 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 4: So, part of the documents that. 241 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 3: We looked at were describing this meeting in twenty eighteen 242 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 3: where this rank and file FDA epidemiologist overseeing the safety 243 00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 3: of over the counter drugs made a presentation to a 244 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:09,600 Speaker 3: committee of FDA higher ups and said here's the science. 245 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 3: For reasons that remained unclear to me, they weren't even 246 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 3: considering a label change. Currently, you know, the the Trump 247 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 3: administration and Kennedy are issuing a label change or initiating 248 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 3: a label change with the which the drug company is fighting. 249 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 3: But they didn't even consider that. They just thought, you know, 250 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 3: should we as the rank and file FDA epidemiologists was 251 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 3: repeatedly recommending, should we issue some sort of nuanced communication 252 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:43,640 Speaker 3: to pregnant women about the potential for risk? And this 253 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 3: FDA committee of higher ups, led by a long time 254 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 3: uh FDA bureaucrat, Janet Woodcock, decided to essentially do nothing, 255 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 3: kick the can down the road. They commissioned that toxicology 256 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 3: that we were just talking about that we don't know 257 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:09,360 Speaker 3: the results of, and said nothing remained silent. I think 258 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:15,359 Speaker 3: this is notable because Americans at this point, many Americans 259 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 3: have a healthy mistrust of the FDA because. 260 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 1: Of that's an understatement. I think they outright, I think 261 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:22,639 Speaker 1: they suck. 262 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:24,119 Speaker 2: I mean, oh my god. 263 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:29,359 Speaker 1: You know, I listened to Tucker's latest interview with doctor Huff, 264 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 1: who was a part of Eco Health Alliance. I almost 265 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 1: fell out of my chair. I mean, I already have 266 00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:39,360 Speaker 1: my own suspicions of where it came from. 267 00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:39,560 Speaker 2: Why. 268 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:42,400 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I've been listening to doctor Malone 269 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:44,960 Speaker 1: since day one on all That right, and had him 270 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:46,920 Speaker 1: on the show talk about it a few months ago, 271 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:50,440 Speaker 1: and you know, and to see this now, it's like, well, 272 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 1: I mean it's everywhere you look, right, It's not just 273 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:58,480 Speaker 1: you know, the pandemic of COVID. Now it's tail and all. 274 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 1: Now it's the COVID, it's m R and A vaccines. 275 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:06,439 Speaker 1: How many other drugs in the past have were you know, 276 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:11,439 Speaker 1: hidden by these bureaucratic officials. And I think we're just 277 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:15,640 Speaker 1: seeing another intense reality of I think a much deeper 278 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:19,960 Speaker 1: basket of potential problems with with the Food and Drug 279 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:24,120 Speaker 1: administrationist relationships with farm uh big pharma. 280 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:27,280 Speaker 2: So what what did? What did? How? What were did you? 281 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:30,320 Speaker 1: Were there some other things I thought I remembered in 282 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:33,880 Speaker 1: in the article. There was some other I don't want 283 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:38,360 Speaker 1: to say scandals, but there are other questionable uh drugs 284 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:40,920 Speaker 1: and other things that she was a part of as well. 285 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:43,119 Speaker 2: Is that true? 286 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:46,160 Speaker 3: I think she fits a pattern of a lot of 287 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:54,959 Speaker 3: longtime deep state folks who simply occupy a position of 288 00:18:55,000 --> 00:19:00,359 Speaker 3: power for too long, unaccountable to any election. Right Like 289 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 3: you think about a j Edgar Hoover, you think about 290 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 3: a Anthony Fauci, You're in the same position. Decade after 291 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:12,080 Speaker 3: decade after decade. She was at the FDA for four decades. 292 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:16,680 Speaker 3: You start to accumulate this bureaucratic power that seems almost 293 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:23,399 Speaker 3: unaccountable to Congress, unaccountable to elected officials, because you have 294 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 3: been around longer and are more knowledgeable and can play 295 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:29,600 Speaker 3: the Washington game better than anybody who could fire you. 296 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 3: And I think an interesting contrast is looking at some 297 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:38,200 Speaker 3: of the people who are in positions of influence at FDA. 298 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:41,160 Speaker 3: Now you have a Marty McCarey, you have a vende proisade, 299 00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:46,320 Speaker 3: folks who have been critical of the internch bureaucracy and 300 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:48,639 Speaker 3: who want to shake things up, and you have the 301 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:52,360 Speaker 3: Wall Street Journal calling for their heads. You don't see 302 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 3: that with Janet Woodcock, despite her being there for four decades. 303 00:19:56,520 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 3: So what does that tell you? It tells you that 304 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:02,919 Speaker 3: she was a cree sure of the status quo. People 305 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:06,119 Speaker 3: will often mention FDA user fees that the FDA is 306 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 3: sort of funded by the industry it's supposed to regulate. 307 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:15,200 Speaker 3: I think that definitely played a role in her behavior, 308 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 3: and you allude to other controversial decisions that she oversaw. 309 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 4: I mean, she was the head of. 310 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:28,240 Speaker 3: The division of the FDA that oversees opioids for. 311 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:36,080 Speaker 5: The beginning, middle, and up until very recently end of 312 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:38,479 Speaker 5: the well, there's no end to the opioid crisis. 313 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 4: But she was there at the beginning of the opioid crisis. 314 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 3: She you know, led that division at the time of 315 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:48,880 Speaker 3: the approval of oxygon and then subsequently oversaw the approval 316 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:54,320 Speaker 3: of many other dangerous opioids, you know, sometimes overriding the 317 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 3: fd's own scientific advisors to do so, and then as 318 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:02,760 Speaker 3: recently as twenty twenty offended that infamous decision of the 319 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:06,520 Speaker 3: FDA to approve oxycontencying it followed all of their UH 320 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:11,480 Speaker 3: standards and protocols. So what does that say about FDA 321 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 3: standards and protocols? So, as I said, you know, I 322 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 3: think Americans at this point post COVID especially have this 323 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:24,679 Speaker 3: healthy skepticism of the FDA, And there's this attitude I 324 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:29,160 Speaker 3: think in the mainstream press that how dare Kennedy. 325 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 4: Challenge the science? 326 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:37,880 Speaker 3: You know? But I think the responsibility is on these 327 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:42,520 Speaker 3: institutions to prove that they are following the science. It's 328 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:46,920 Speaker 3: sort of up to them to regain our trust because 329 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 3: there have been so many, so many scandals, And I 330 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 3: think top of mind for me right now is why 331 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 3: did FDA officials override the recommendation of one of their 332 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:02,439 Speaker 3: top epidemiologists to warn pregnant women about tailand all? What 333 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:05,080 Speaker 3: was the harm in just saying, hey, we're reviewing the 334 00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:07,400 Speaker 3: science and this is what the science is indicating right now. 335 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:13,719 Speaker 1: So I that is the multi million dollar question. From Thailand, 336 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:17,400 Speaker 1: all's concerned for sure, and and you know, from all 337 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 1: the people whose children that potentially that this might have 338 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 1: harmed in some capacity. I mean, I remember, you know, 339 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:26,639 Speaker 1: in my my four daughters when you know, two of 340 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:28,720 Speaker 1: the new marriage. But when I when I was you know, 341 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:31,560 Speaker 1: a young father with my first children. You know, they 342 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:33,480 Speaker 1: get sick, they get a fever. For what's the first 343 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 1: thing I'm doing. I'm I'm giving them a dose to 344 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:38,680 Speaker 1: tail and all right, the liquid you know, grape tail 345 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:41,720 Speaker 1: and all that you buy in bulk from Walgreens and 346 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 1: all these other places. 347 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:45,360 Speaker 2: Because there's a trust in the whole thing. 348 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 1: And and had you know, had I ever been because 349 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:51,119 Speaker 1: I'm a medic. I'm a classically trained civilian paramedic. I 350 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:53,480 Speaker 1: was a medic in the sealed teams. If I, you know, 351 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:55,920 Speaker 1: was going to administer a drug to one of my guys, 352 00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 1: you know, I'm going to do the research and figure 353 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 1: out right, what you know, what are the marker what 354 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 1: are the biomarkers, What are the things I need? 355 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:04,439 Speaker 2: What are the dose sizes? What you know? 356 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 1: Is there any you know, uh potentiality for uh a 357 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:12,080 Speaker 1: negative effect efficacy in this? You know, you do all 358 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 1: those things, but when it comes to these mega corporations, 359 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 1: you just figure, oh, it's a no brainer. There's never 360 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:20,720 Speaker 1: been a problem there's no whatever. But now we absolutely 361 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:26,840 Speaker 1: know that there's a symbiotic relationship. Did you find any 362 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:34,040 Speaker 1: type of money correlation uh to tile and all people 363 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:37,359 Speaker 1: that worked that were in these studies. Did you find 364 00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:43,360 Speaker 1: any uh a financial uh integration with Woodcock or any 365 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:45,560 Speaker 1: of these other people? I mean, like I remember in 366 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:49,520 Speaker 1: the in the Peter Berg you know, uh documentary or 367 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:53,359 Speaker 1: or or documentary or drama documentary whatever they call those things, 368 00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:56,440 Speaker 1: when he about the Sackler family, there was that one 369 00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:00,600 Speaker 1: FDA person that went into the hotel room for you know, 370 00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:03,280 Speaker 1: forty eight hours or whatever it is, and came out 371 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 1: on the other end and was like approved, you know what, 372 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:12,040 Speaker 1: what did you find any other connections? I mean, obviously 373 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 1: as investigative journals probably like rule number one for y'all 374 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:18,720 Speaker 1: is follow the money, right, did you find anything like that? 375 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 3: I asked the drug company ken View, did you have 376 00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:29,720 Speaker 3: any communications with the FDA about this? They their strategy 377 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:32,520 Speaker 3: when it comes to my reporting has just been to 378 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:33,119 Speaker 3: ignore me. 379 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 4: So they didn't answer that question. 380 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:39,960 Speaker 3: But we know that there's a financial relationship, and you 381 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 3: don't need FOYA or an investigative journalist to tell you that. 382 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 3: Actually you just you know, understand that user fees mean 383 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 3: that drug companies like Johnson and Johnson now can view 384 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:55,680 Speaker 3: and other makers of a set of minifin are partially 385 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 3: underwriting the. 386 00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:57,399 Speaker 4: Budget of the FDA. 387 00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:00,840 Speaker 3: So absolutely, you know, baseline, there is a final relationship. 388 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:07,439 Speaker 3: Asked you whether the company was lobbying the FDA. You know, 389 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:11,359 Speaker 3: I think one of the cool things about the new 390 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:14,480 Speaker 3: leadership at the FDA is they've been doing these podcasts, 391 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:19,200 Speaker 3: which has been an insightful way to get a sense 392 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:24,639 Speaker 3: of what actually goes on. And they mentioned how drug 393 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:28,200 Speaker 3: companies lobby the FDA. They don't necessarily do it directly. 394 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:33,399 Speaker 3: They'll go to a lawmaker whose campaigns are you know, 395 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:37,200 Speaker 3: in many cases underwritten by the pharmaceutical industry and say 396 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:40,480 Speaker 3: we're really concerned about this FDA policy. And then the 397 00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:45,640 Speaker 3: lawmakers who of course set the FDA's budget, who are 398 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:48,479 Speaker 3: in charge of their appropriations, will come to the FDA 399 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:51,320 Speaker 3: and say, hey, we're hearing this from the industry, what's 400 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:53,480 Speaker 3: going on over there, And that'll be sort of the 401 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 3: indirect way of putting pressure on the FDAs. So I 402 00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:58,679 Speaker 3: thought that was super interesting. I didn't realize that that 403 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:03,040 Speaker 3: was how pharma sort of because it's influence on the 404 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:07,959 Speaker 3: FDA often, but on the specifics of this case, I 405 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:09,919 Speaker 3: think we're still learning more. 406 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:13,760 Speaker 4: I definitely hope to learn more. 407 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 3: As you mentioned, you know, the opioid case is infamous, 408 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:24,200 Speaker 3: and Janet Woodcock, overseeing ced the division of the FD 409 00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:31,359 Speaker 3: that oversees opioids, also overseeing this case. You know, she 410 00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:33,320 Speaker 3: doesn't have the best track record, So I think it's 411 00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:37,600 Speaker 3: a reasonable question to ask another parallel I think to 412 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 3: you know, the case of oxy cotton is there was 413 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:46,320 Speaker 3: one letter that was cited repeatedly and it was really 414 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:48,359 Speaker 3: more of an op ed that said this stuff is 415 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,440 Speaker 3: not addictive, and it kept getting cited in the scientific 416 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 3: literature as this premiere evidence that this drug was safe. 417 00:26:57,320 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 3: In the case of tile and all, there's something very 418 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:03,480 Speaker 3: similar where the American Academy of Pediatrics looked at liver 419 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:05,760 Speaker 3: toxicity of a set of menifin and they said, well, 420 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:08,399 Speaker 3: it doesn't seem to harm the liver, so we think 421 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:13,000 Speaker 3: it's okay. And that sort of repeated and cited as 422 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:16,719 Speaker 3: that in said it's safe. But then one point that 423 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:21,320 Speaker 3: experts who are in favor of this hypothesis that a 424 00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:25,320 Speaker 3: seed of menifin causes neurological damage. They'll point to animal 425 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:28,639 Speaker 3: studies showing that mice will die from a seed of 426 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:32,719 Speaker 3: minifine overdose without their livers being damaged, and we're not 427 00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 3: really sure how that happens. 428 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 4: So so much like. 429 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:45,000 Speaker 3: The oxycotton letter, there is a similar sort of foundational 430 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:49,480 Speaker 3: publication saying that this drug is safe that keeps getting 431 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:52,080 Speaker 3: repeatedly cited. And I think it's time that we take 432 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:54,560 Speaker 3: a second look at that the evidence there. 433 00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:58,200 Speaker 2: I think you're one hundred percent right. 434 00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:01,399 Speaker 1: I mean, I you know, I all I as you're 435 00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:04,920 Speaker 1: saying this thing, all I remember is during COVID, right, 436 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:09,240 Speaker 1: every CNN commercial was brought to you by Pfizer, right, 437 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:13,560 Speaker 1: or you know, it was just one constant from all 438 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:17,399 Speaker 1: these organized news so called news organizations, and you know, 439 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,880 Speaker 1: and you see, you know, the organizations that obviously don't 440 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:23,640 Speaker 1: take money from big pharmers, such as the Daily Caller. 441 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:26,879 Speaker 1: And you're able to do good reporting on this because 442 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:30,719 Speaker 1: you're not constrained by by the influence there. Now, what 443 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:32,480 Speaker 1: I'd really love to do is I want to dig 444 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:36,359 Speaker 1: into this class action lawsuit for sure, But before I do, 445 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 1: I just got to bring back and touch on one 446 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:42,160 Speaker 1: of our great sponsors in terms of Patriot Mobile, right, 447 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:45,920 Speaker 1: here's the deal. Every choice we make is an opportunity 448 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:48,720 Speaker 1: to stand for freedom. That's why I do this show. 449 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:52,560 Speaker 1: Even something as simple as your cell phone service is 450 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,840 Speaker 1: a representation of what your wallet means in what type 451 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 1: of American company you want to support. Here's the truth. 452 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,680 Speaker 1: Most self phone providers don't care about you. 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Okay, Emily, 486 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:59,080 Speaker 1: I want to go back to this, the class action lawsuit. 487 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:04,800 Speaker 1: I saw that they have some another big hearing in November. 488 00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:07,040 Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about that and what 489 00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:11,040 Speaker 1: they're hoping to accomplish in that upcoming trial? 490 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:13,480 Speaker 4: Sure? 491 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:18,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, So briefly on the ad point, if you map 492 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:23,120 Speaker 3: when direct to consumer advertise advertising started by the pharmaceutical 493 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:26,400 Speaker 3: industry and Johnson and Johnson, the maker of Thailand all 494 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:30,440 Speaker 3: former maker of tailand al Uh before they spun it 495 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:33,560 Speaker 3: off into this separate, legally separate company called ken View 496 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:34,360 Speaker 3: a couple of years ago. 497 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:37,640 Speaker 4: You know, they were a big driver of that, and 498 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:38,360 Speaker 4: you map. 499 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:43,680 Speaker 3: It against autism cases. You know, again it's it's it's 500 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:47,320 Speaker 3: not a we can't prove causation, but it's interesting that 501 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:52,720 Speaker 3: they dovetail. So yeah, so there's this class action lawsuit. 502 00:31:54,320 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 3: They were unsuccessful their first go round. Essentially the judge 503 00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:05,920 Speaker 3: said that the evidence doesn't prove causation and thus were 504 00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:11,520 Speaker 3: throwing out all of the plaintiffs experts in this case. 505 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,760 Speaker 3: They thought they the firm was overseating its case. 506 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:20,040 Speaker 1: And where where was that? Where was that case litigated? Initially, 507 00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:22,760 Speaker 1: I'm sorry to interrupt you. Where was that case litigated? 508 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:26,400 Speaker 1: And do you know the name of the judge the. 509 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:31,000 Speaker 3: Southern District of New York, Denise Cote, I think is 510 00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:33,920 Speaker 3: the name of the judge. 511 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:37,400 Speaker 4: So folks can independently look to. 512 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:41,760 Speaker 1: Evaluate our record, which is a whole nother system that 513 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:46,000 Speaker 1: we have to evaluate right now with the justice system 514 00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:50,400 Speaker 1: might to not allow your you know, the class actions 515 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:54,760 Speaker 1: experts to testify, I mean, and then to and then 516 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:59,080 Speaker 1: to you know, in discovery, to get you know, a 517 00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:03,280 Speaker 1: stack of you know, redacted information for your case. 518 00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:07,640 Speaker 2: It's just it's it's a sham, the whole thing. It's ridiculous. 519 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,640 Speaker 3: Well, and one thing I'll mention, Well, I'll be even 520 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:16,560 Speaker 3: handed here. So, like the FDA documents we reported on, 521 00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:21,680 Speaker 3: the experts said pregnant women absolutely need to be warned, 522 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:25,760 Speaker 3: but they also said we don't have causation yet repeatedly. 523 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:29,440 Speaker 3: And my understanding from scientists is that causation is hard 524 00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:35,040 Speaker 3: to prove, and so there is the possibility that the 525 00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:37,480 Speaker 3: firm was overstating its case when it said that there 526 00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:41,560 Speaker 3: is causation simply because it hasn't been studied in the 527 00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:44,800 Speaker 3: way that you would need to in order to prove it. 528 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:46,720 Speaker 3: And part of it is difficult because there are major 529 00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:51,400 Speaker 3: ethical challenges with you know, studying pregnancy. 530 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 4: So I'll say that to be absolutely fair here. 531 00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:59,600 Speaker 3: One thing that's curious is that Biden's Department of Justice 532 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:03,040 Speaker 3: weighed in in the case with a letter where they 533 00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:08,920 Speaker 3: mention all of these fd reports that we describe in 534 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:12,400 Speaker 3: our story, but they only cite one of them, and 535 00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:19,120 Speaker 3: it's this twenty twenty three epidemiology review. The person the 536 00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:24,560 Speaker 3: expert who wrote that first initial report saying pregnant women 537 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:26,520 Speaker 3: should be warned, and then said that again and again 538 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:30,840 Speaker 3: in these other internal reports. He had moved on, he 539 00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:34,000 Speaker 3: had started tore. So it was this other official who 540 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:39,399 Speaker 3: wrote this twenty twenty three report. And unlike every other 541 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,680 Speaker 3: prior FD report that I reviewed, it didn't have a 542 00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:47,480 Speaker 3: recommendation section at all. So it just said the association 543 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:51,960 Speaker 3: has not proven to be causal and then didn't say 544 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:52,640 Speaker 3: anything else. 545 00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:55,000 Speaker 1: So and that was. 546 00:34:56,760 --> 00:35:00,000 Speaker 3: And that was the only one that Biden's Department of Justice, 547 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:04,040 Speaker 3: you know, quoted from in its letter in this case. 548 00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:07,960 Speaker 3: And so the defendant, the pharmaceutical company ken View, was 549 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:11,239 Speaker 3: able to say, you know, the FDA says that there's 550 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:13,920 Speaker 3: no causal relationship here, nothing to see here. And in fact, 551 00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:17,680 Speaker 3: the drug company has since in battling the current FDA, 552 00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:21,160 Speaker 3: the new leadership at FDA, has said the FDA has 553 00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:23,680 Speaker 3: said in prior reports that there's no puzzle relationship here, 554 00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:28,879 Speaker 3: of course, omitting the giant red flag that every other 555 00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:32,720 Speaker 3: report recommended that pregnant women be warned. So so that's 556 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:36,280 Speaker 3: a curiosity, you might say, I do wonder how that happened. 557 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:41,600 Speaker 1: Oh, man, I I I think it's it's now so 558 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:47,520 Speaker 1: systemic of of of a tactic that it just I mean, 559 00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:51,960 Speaker 1: you know, once you once you figure out how to 560 00:35:54,440 --> 00:36:01,799 Speaker 1: generate liability for vaccines, you generate how to destroy these 561 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:07,000 Speaker 1: class action lawsuits through holding the trials and specific areas 562 00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:10,040 Speaker 1: with specific judges. You know, I mean, the whole idea 563 00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:14,359 Speaker 1: of law fare and how to play that game is 564 00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:17,960 Speaker 1: become you know, a multi billion dollar business of it 565 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:21,719 Speaker 1: in itself. So you know, these are are our tactics 566 00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:24,880 Speaker 1: that you know, all these companies have become you know, 567 00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:28,160 Speaker 1: invested hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars and so 568 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:33,160 Speaker 1: you know, only by the grace of God and tenacious 569 00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:37,759 Speaker 1: reporters like yourself does it does it begin to percolate 570 00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:41,959 Speaker 1: to the surface? What what is that you said there's 571 00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:44,880 Speaker 1: going to be a follow up hearing? Is that? 572 00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:48,000 Speaker 2: Do they have what's the word I'm looking for? 573 00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:52,000 Speaker 1: They appealed the judgment, I'm assuming, and so they're getting 574 00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:54,040 Speaker 1: up a follow up hearing in November. 575 00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:59,640 Speaker 4: Yeah, so the judgeal or another judgell. 576 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:03,919 Speaker 3: Here in appeal and we definitely plan on covering those 577 00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:09,399 Speaker 3: proceedings so so stay tuned. I think it's possible both 578 00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:14,000 Speaker 3: sides will have surprises that weren't available in the discovery 579 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:19,360 Speaker 3: documents that I reviewed. So more to come and hopefully, 580 00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:23,200 Speaker 3: you know, no matter what side is successful, the public 581 00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:24,640 Speaker 3: gets more clarity on this. 582 00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:27,680 Speaker 1: Well, I'll tell you what, Emily, if if you're up 583 00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:31,960 Speaker 1: for when when that next trial or or hearing goes 584 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:35,319 Speaker 1: down and something pops out of that, we we'd love 585 00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:39,959 Speaker 1: to have you on Just there's just a real quick 586 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:42,240 Speaker 1: I'm just so I have to just hit this because 587 00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:45,040 Speaker 1: this caught my eye as I was going through your 588 00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:47,920 Speaker 1: page and just look reading through all your articles you 589 00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:53,120 Speaker 1: there's one you reposted about an article from what is 590 00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:58,520 Speaker 1: It a Garden Air? Harris uh An excerpt uh speaking 591 00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:04,239 Speaker 1: about antidepressant and how a new finding is saying that 592 00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:07,520 Speaker 1: potentially there's a link to suicide in kids for long 593 00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:10,920 Speaker 1: term use of antidepressants. Are you covering that? Are you 594 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:13,600 Speaker 1: doing a story on that? When's that going to come out? 595 00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:17,600 Speaker 1: And where can people like follow you and pay attention 596 00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:19,920 Speaker 1: because you're just doing great work. 597 00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:22,040 Speaker 5: Thank you. 598 00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:25,759 Speaker 3: I'm glad you asked about that because it's sort of 599 00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:28,080 Speaker 3: a nuance that I couldn't get into in depth because 600 00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:30,400 Speaker 3: I didn't want people to sort of totally lose the thread. 601 00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:33,200 Speaker 3: But I think it's important in telling about the culture 602 00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:38,360 Speaker 3: of the FDA. So this actually happened in two thousand 603 00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:43,080 Speaker 3: and three. The epidemiologists I keep mentioning the rank and 604 00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:47,720 Speaker 3: file head drug safety over the counter drug safety expert 605 00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:50,080 Speaker 3: at the FDA, who kept saying, hey, we need. 606 00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:52,200 Speaker 4: To warn pregnant women about thailand all use. 607 00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:58,799 Speaker 3: He you know, twenty years earlier, fifteen years earlier, put 608 00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:04,160 Speaker 3: together this report about children on antidepressants having a higher 609 00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:07,279 Speaker 3: rate of suicide than children who were not depressed, children 610 00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:11,640 Speaker 3: who were not taking antidepressants, so essentially antidepressants having any 611 00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:19,000 Speaker 3: opposite intended effect, and he was greeted by his higher 612 00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:20,920 Speaker 3: ups at the FDA with. 613 00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:23,120 Speaker 4: Harassment. 614 00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:26,400 Speaker 3: He was not able to present his science at an 615 00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:30,600 Speaker 3: advisory committee meeting. Those are open to the public, so 616 00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:32,839 Speaker 3: this would included in the public to what was going on, 617 00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:38,319 Speaker 3: and higher ups even tried to pressure him to change 618 00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:43,080 Speaker 3: the conclusions of his report so that it, yeah, so 619 00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:48,239 Speaker 3: it wouldn't find this association. This all became public, there 620 00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:52,239 Speaker 3: was a major congressional hearing and the FDA sort of 621 00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:55,680 Speaker 3: through having their arms twisted was forced to issue a 622 00:39:55,719 --> 00:40:01,560 Speaker 3: black box warning about this risk. But you know, you 623 00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:05,719 Speaker 3: kind of wonder an institution with that sort of culture, 624 00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:10,959 Speaker 3: would it be capable of being responsible for a cover 625 00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:14,279 Speaker 3: up of neurological damage of a major drug like tail 626 00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:14,640 Speaker 3: and all. 627 00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:17,000 Speaker 4: I think it's safe to say they would be capable 628 00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:18,120 Speaker 4: thing like that. 629 00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:23,040 Speaker 1: So I think they're capable of all of this and more, 630 00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:28,719 Speaker 1: because every it seems like every every ten years or so, 631 00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:34,160 Speaker 1: we see where there's you know, catastrophic fails on their 632 00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:37,160 Speaker 1: oversight for the American population of people. 633 00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:39,879 Speaker 2: And I think they're over it. We're over it. We're 634 00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:41,120 Speaker 2: just sick of it. Now. 635 00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:43,439 Speaker 1: We don't know who to trust, We don't know which 636 00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:46,000 Speaker 1: doctors to go see, who are going to push drugs, 637 00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:49,200 Speaker 1: more vaccines, and more drugs on us, and who's going 638 00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:52,520 Speaker 1: to support these things, And because that's a huge component 639 00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:54,839 Speaker 1: of their fund how they make money is what they 640 00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:58,120 Speaker 1: sell in terms of you know, prescriptions, and it all 641 00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:01,360 Speaker 1: just seems like it's it's gone on to the place 642 00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:05,080 Speaker 1: where that moral flexibility has been you know, you serve, 643 00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:09,640 Speaker 1: or that moral construct has been usurped by the power 644 00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:10,280 Speaker 1: of the dollar. 645 00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:12,480 Speaker 2: And man, I'm just. 646 00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:16,040 Speaker 1: Grateful that you are out there pounding the pavement and 647 00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:20,279 Speaker 1: digging into these stories. Emily, where can people follow you 648 00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:23,400 Speaker 1: and if and how can they get in touch with 649 00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:26,319 Speaker 1: you if they have tips or our ideas that they 650 00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:28,840 Speaker 1: want to share with you about great stories involved in 651 00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:31,279 Speaker 1: what you're reporting on. Yeah. 652 00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:34,240 Speaker 3: Absolutely, so you can read my reporting at the Daily 653 00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:38,200 Speaker 3: Caller and then I'm on x at Emily and A 654 00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:42,080 Speaker 3: N N. E. Cop Kopp and my dms are open 655 00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:46,160 Speaker 3: and love to chat with folks about story ideas. 656 00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:50,200 Speaker 1: So awesome, Emily, Thank you so much for what you're doing. 657 00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:53,720 Speaker 1: Keep up the great work. And uh just I'm looking 658 00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:55,480 Speaker 1: forward to I'm going to be paying attention if you 659 00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:57,880 Speaker 1: if you get another big break, I'd love to have it. 660 00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:00,600 Speaker 1: And one last thing, I do want to say that 661 00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:06,040 Speaker 1: Secretary Kennedy did reach out to you and compliment you 662 00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:11,440 Speaker 1: on one of your reporting, didn't he. 663 00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:15,520 Speaker 3: He did, Yeah, his knowledge is pretty impressive. He was like, 664 00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:18,399 Speaker 3: there's this guy most shoulder. He knew the specific name 665 00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:24,400 Speaker 3: of the FDA epidemiologist. So they're paying close attention to 666 00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:27,680 Speaker 3: the science. And I hope you know you mentioned doing 667 00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:31,239 Speaker 3: your careful research. I think that's sort of where the 668 00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:34,800 Speaker 3: corruption leads us as us doing our own independent research 669 00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:38,080 Speaker 3: in these things, and I hope, hope folks continue to 670 00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:39,480 Speaker 3: do their own research too. 671 00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:43,160 Speaker 2: Very well. Thank you so much, and God bless you, Emily. 672 00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:45,040 Speaker 4: Thank you so much.