1 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: Amy Roboc and TJ. 2 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:15,640 Speaker 2: Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host Alisa Donovan. Hey everyone, 3 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:20,000 Speaker 2: Elisa Donovan here and this is Killer Thriller. Today. We 4 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 2: are talking about one of the most infamous and controversial 5 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 2: true crime cases of the modern era, the case of 6 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:32,599 Speaker 2: Amanda Knox. In November of two thousand and seven, Amanda 7 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:36,120 Speaker 2: was a twenty year old American student studying abroad in Perusia, Italy, 8 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:40,240 Speaker 2: when her roommate, twenty one year old British student, Meredith Kircher, 9 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:44,320 Speaker 2: was brutally murdered in the house they shared. Within days, 10 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 2: the Italian police arrested Knox, along with her brand new boyfriend, 11 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:57,320 Speaker 2: Rafaele Solechito. What followed was nearly a decade of legal chaos, convictions, appeals, retrials, 12 00:00:57,400 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 2: and a global media frenzy. Amanda spent almost four years 13 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:06,759 Speaker 2: in an Italian prison, and then only years later years later, 14 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 2: Italy's highest court ultimately cleared her of the murder. She 15 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:15,080 Speaker 2: is the executive producer of The Twisted Tail of Amanda Knox, 16 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:18,960 Speaker 2: which revisits the investigation, the headlines, and how she became 17 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 2: the center of an international spectacle. Amanda, thank you so 18 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:24,959 Speaker 2: much for being here today. 19 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:26,840 Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much for having me. 20 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 2: I have to say straight away, I truly I'm in 21 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:36,040 Speaker 2: awe of you as a human being, and I just 22 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 2: want to say that this series is phenomenal, that it's heartbreaking, 23 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 2: and it's beautiful, and it's I just I can't say 24 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:52,240 Speaker 2: enough great things about it. So well, thank you, brilliant, thrilled. 25 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 1: Thank you. I mean, it was a work of love 26 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:57,080 Speaker 1: for so many people who took part in it, and 27 00:01:57,160 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 1: I'm just really it could have been a very terrible experience, 28 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:06,280 Speaker 1: and I think that I was very held and honored 29 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 1: over the course of the making of the whole entire 30 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:13,800 Speaker 1: series by everyone involved, and so that that I'm really 31 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:15,960 Speaker 1: really grateful for and I do not take for granted. 32 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:19,959 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very apparent. You know, there are a multitude 33 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 2: of reasons why any thing narrative is successful, and usually 34 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 2: it is every piece that matters, you know, And in 35 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:33,519 Speaker 2: this case, it's so beautifully crafted and it's so unique 36 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 2: that it's you know, tell me about how much input 37 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:40,360 Speaker 2: you had in terms of the creativity of it and 38 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 2: the kind of almost fantastical nature at times, it's really vibrant. 39 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 2: That was really. 40 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 1: The inspiration for having there be whimsy and magic even 41 00:02:57,200 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 1: was I think was something that I had always wanted 42 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:05,520 Speaker 1: to be a part of something like this, because I, 43 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:10,960 Speaker 1: as a person, have always felt like pigeonholed in as 44 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 1: like a tragic figure, as a true crime tragedy figure, 45 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 1: and that's not who I am, that's not you know, 46 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 1: I'm a Harry Potter fan. Like I went to Italy 47 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:27,960 Speaker 1: because I wanted to become a translator of poetry. Like 48 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 1: I'm a very whimsical sort of poetical person, and so 49 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:35,600 Speaker 1: we wanted that to come through. And when I was 50 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 1: talking to our showrunner kJ Steinberg, I mean, she's the 51 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 1: one who really had the vision for how this show 52 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 1: would be. And when she came to me, we were talking, 53 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:49,280 Speaker 1: like we spent a lot of time together as we 54 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 1: were like thinking about how do we approach the show, 55 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 1: And something that stuck with her was that the night 56 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 1: that all of this went down, I was with Raphael 57 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:07,360 Speaker 1: watching my favorite movie Ameli. But then you know, and 58 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 1: and that movie itself is sort of like whimsical and 59 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 1: magical in ways, and so she was like, wow, that 60 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:17,920 Speaker 1: that is the stylistic approach that we want to take 61 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 1: to represent Like how you approach the world, and we 62 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 1: want to show that like when tragedy happens in real 63 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 1: people's lives, like it's not like you you're prepared for it, right, 64 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:37,159 Speaker 1: Like my my journey was supposed to be a magical, 65 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:42,159 Speaker 1: wonderful experience doing study abroad, and that's what my mindset 66 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:47,159 Speaker 1: was when tragedy happened to strike. And so it was 67 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 1: really important for us to approach telling this story not 68 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 1: in the typical way, which is like, you know, every 69 00:04:56,480 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 1: moment feels like it's a foreshadowing of what's to come, 70 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 1: and like, yeah, like I like the character of me 71 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:07,400 Speaker 1: was completely blind sided. And so in a way, we 72 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 1: wanted to sort of get our audience in that sort 73 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 1: of in that mental space of being like a young 74 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:16,080 Speaker 1: person with like love, hopes and dreams and everything's going 75 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:19,920 Speaker 1: well and then they're blind sided, because that's really that's 76 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 1: really how it feels to go through these kinds of experiences. 77 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 2: Yeah no, And that's that also helps to really explain 78 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 2: so many of the things initially that were twisted, right 79 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 2: that they show images of you this you know, in 80 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:39,480 Speaker 2: the press when it was in real time, whether it's 81 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 2: hugging Raphael or doing something and the way images can 82 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 2: just be twisted when you create your own story, which 83 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 2: is what the press did. I mean, I remember all 84 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:57,479 Speaker 2: of this I very distinctly when it was happening, and 85 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:03,160 Speaker 2: I this whole series is I found it really hard 86 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 2: to watch sometimes because it's it's so real, and the 87 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 2: depth of feeling and the nuance is so real, and 88 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 2: I mean it's almost asphyxiating at times, and it's miraculous 89 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 2: that you didn't lose your mind entirely completely, like just 90 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:29,760 Speaker 2: totally lose your mind. So is it hard for you 91 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:34,160 Speaker 2: to watch the series? Like how what is that experience? Like? 92 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 1: You know, what's so interesting that I found was that 93 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 1: it was a lot harder for people who knew me 94 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:47,719 Speaker 1: to watch the series than it was for me to 95 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 1: watch the series, because you know, I lived that very 96 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 1: claustrophobic existence, right, Like, I think for me the more 97 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 1: the moments that really that was the hardest for me 98 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:04,800 Speaker 1: was in the making of it, so like I was 99 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 1: really concerned about getting certain scenes right because there was 100 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:18,119 Speaker 1: a lot of misunderstanding around how things were talked about 101 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 1: later on by people who weren't there, and so I 102 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 1: really wanted to get it right, Like if we're putting 103 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 1: people in the room with me. We need to get 104 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 1: it right so that people can understand what my mindset 105 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 1: was in this specific circumstance or that. And I remember 106 00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 1: breaking down sobbing when we finally finished shooting the interrogation scene, 107 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 1: because like that scene was so important for me to 108 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 1: get right, not just on a personal level, but also 109 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 1: like on the level of just we as people do 110 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 1: not have access to interrogation rooms. We don't really know 111 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 1: what it's like unless we're there, And so I really 112 00:07:57,120 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 1: wanted to get it right. And of all the people 113 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 1: that were there, I was the only one who had 114 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 1: lived through that, So like I was the one who's 115 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 1: like really trying to like make sure, Okay, here's and 116 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 1: not just like from my perspective, but also like here's 117 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 1: perspective of the cop. They have been up for like 118 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 1: seventy two hours straight. They are losing their minds a 119 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 1: little bit, Like what is everyone's dynamic in the room, 120 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 1: what do people know versus? That's really important. But like, 121 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 1: in terms of just watching the show in general, I 122 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 1: found that, you know, my family or my friends who 123 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 1: watched it, like they knew because they had lived through 124 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 1: it with me. What I had gone through, but they 125 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:40,079 Speaker 1: hadn't been in the room with me, and that was 126 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:46,720 Speaker 1: really hard for them to watch because they got so angry, 127 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:48,520 Speaker 1: like everyone was so. 128 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I mean that scene is it is devastating 129 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:58,719 Speaker 2: to watch. It's incredibly well done. And I want to 130 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:01,960 Speaker 2: talk about the policewoman in it. But did they did 131 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:04,160 Speaker 2: they really hit you? Did they physically hit you? 132 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 1: Yes? Yes, yeah, And you know, like it's interesting, there 133 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 1: was a lot going on in that room that you know, 134 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:17,720 Speaker 1: they didn't hit me strong enough to like give me 135 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:23,479 Speaker 1: a concussion. It was more just like the startling hostility 136 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 1: and aggressiveness of it that was communicated, and that was 137 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 1: already amping up through the yelling and the lying to me, 138 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:33,480 Speaker 1: like all of that, and then of course that tempered 139 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 1: with the other cop who's trying to be the nice one, 140 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:38,560 Speaker 1: who's saying, oh no, she just doesn't remember, you know, 141 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:41,960 Speaker 1: telling his colleagues lay off her, stopping so hard on her, 142 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:45,920 Speaker 1: like she just doesn't remember, like introducing like all of 143 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:52,439 Speaker 1: that was part of this like cocktail of overwhelming stimuli 144 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:56,200 Speaker 1: that led me to like not understand what was real 145 00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 1: or not anymore. And I like the fact that Grace 146 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:02,559 Speaker 1: like Grace stan Patten, who plays me in the series. 147 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:08,200 Speaker 1: She had so much on her shoulders as an actress, 148 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 1: like the she had to portray, like even just in 149 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 1: that scene alone, she goes from, Oh, I'm just here 150 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:18,400 Speaker 1: at the police office to answer questions, and I'm just 151 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:20,480 Speaker 1: kind of tired and I don't really want to be 152 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:23,560 Speaker 1: answering questions anymore, Like I just kind of want to 153 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:26,600 Speaker 1: like all, I was just here to wait, and I, Okay, 154 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 1: I guess I'm gonna have to answer questions. But then 155 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 1: it starts getting like wait a second, why are you 156 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:33,840 Speaker 1: being meet? Like why are you mad at me? And 157 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 1: then like wait, what what do you mean? They what 158 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 1: do you mean? He says, I wasn't there? Like what what? 159 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 1: And like like the psychological journey that she goes on 160 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:48,120 Speaker 1: in that scene is is incredible, and she she just 161 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:49,840 Speaker 1: portrayed it so well. 162 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:53,719 Speaker 2: She let's we we got to talk about her for 163 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:58,200 Speaker 2: a minute. I I don't I don't even know what 164 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:03,080 Speaker 2: to say about this. This woman's performance. It is spectacular 165 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:06,600 Speaker 2: on every level. How did she come to the project 166 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 2: and were you familiar with her before? 167 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:12,200 Speaker 1: I was not familiar with her before. But that's also 168 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:15,400 Speaker 1: you know, that's not unusual for me. I'm not like 169 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 1: I don't know actresses or actors like I don't and 170 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 1: especially you know, she's younger than me, so I wasn't 171 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:26,000 Speaker 1: fully aware of her, and so when she was brought 172 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 1: to my attention, I thought, Okay, interesting, let's check her out. 173 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 1: And I saw I watched Tell Me Lies, and I 174 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:41,040 Speaker 1: was really intrigued by her ability to portray like depth 175 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:45,200 Speaker 1: of character, like she she's very good at there are 176 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:48,840 Speaker 1: layers to her characters. And I think that the thing 177 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:53,560 Speaker 1: that really made me realize that we had like gotten 178 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 1: it right was actually when the first time that I 179 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 1: saw her like just in like they're over the course 180 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:05,439 Speaker 1: of like casting and getting the people ready to get 181 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:09,200 Speaker 1: into character, there are there's these moments where you just 182 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:13,000 Speaker 1: have the character like in costume, like they'll do they'll 183 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:15,320 Speaker 1: just sort of like put the character in what their 184 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:18,000 Speaker 1: costume is going to be and sort of like film 185 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 1: them being in character, not even saying anything, just sort 186 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:24,679 Speaker 1: of being in character. And when I was when I 187 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 1: saw the footage of her just like being in character 188 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:30,800 Speaker 1: of me, I like I had to step back. So 189 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 1: I was like, oh my god, how did she know? 190 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:33,680 Speaker 2: Wow? 191 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:36,760 Speaker 1: You know, how did she know like it, so like them, 192 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:39,880 Speaker 1: Like she she had incredible instincts. She also had really 193 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:43,880 Speaker 1: good questions as an actress. So she's like she obviously 194 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:47,600 Speaker 1: had you know, watched all these different interviews of me 195 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:50,319 Speaker 1: that are out there. But like, interviews of a person 196 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:53,439 Speaker 1: are of a person in a very specific context. Yes, right, 197 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 1: it's not how they are when hanging out with their 198 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:59,160 Speaker 1: friends or what they are. And so like when she 199 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:03,960 Speaker 1: when we talked about you know, the skip in my 200 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 1: step or the slight sing song to my voice, or 201 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 1: the fact, like I remember her distinctly asking me, how 202 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 1: is it that you communicate with your husband in nonverbal ways? Oh? 203 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:18,840 Speaker 2: I love it. Those are the good questions. 204 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 1: They're so good and so like it was really really 205 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 1: thoughtful character building on her part. And of course she 206 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:31,040 Speaker 1: had to do that for the various stages of me 207 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 1: that she portrayed over the course of this show, Like 208 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:36,560 Speaker 1: at the youngest, she plays me at fifteen years old, 209 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:38,679 Speaker 1: and at the oldest she plays me at thirty five, 210 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:42,160 Speaker 1: and so that's a comp and that's a person who's 211 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:44,600 Speaker 1: gone through a lot of shit in the meantime. Yes, 212 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 1: so she had to play that transformation and I think 213 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 1: she just held it so well while also speaking a 214 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:53,080 Speaker 1: foreign language. 215 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 2: By the way, right, it's a pretty phenomenal performance in 216 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:18,480 Speaker 2: every aspect. This is hard to discuss because I remember thinking, 217 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 2: this person, you also went through the major trauma of 218 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 2: losing a friend, and it seemed as though you were 219 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 2: never even given an opportunity to grieve that person. And 220 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 2: it's such a specific relationship you had that was new 221 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 2: and young, and that thing where you can bond sort 222 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 2: of immediately with someone, and so can you talk a 223 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 2: little bit about that, like how did you were you 224 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 2: ever able to even grieve Meredith. 225 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 1: That's a really great thank you for pointing out, because 226 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 1: a lot of people who have talked to me in 227 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 1: the past have sort of forgotten that part of how. 228 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 1: I lived in a bedroom right next door to this, 229 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 1: this young woman's bedroom. We borrowed each other's clothes, we 230 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 1: went grocery shopping together, we baked cookies together. Like I 231 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 1: didn't know Meredith for very long, but we were very 232 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 1: close in the short amount of time that we got 233 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:23,720 Speaker 1: to know each other. And so coming home to discover 234 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:26,240 Speaker 1: that she had been raped and murdered in her own 235 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 1: bedroom after someone had broken into our home was just 236 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 1: like catastrophic and honestly just like so so overwhelming in 237 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 1: the moment that like I sort of like disassociated and 238 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 1: like couldn't believe it was happening. And I think, and 239 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 1: you're right, like when I was in the midst of 240 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 1: going through this, like I didn't have time to process. 241 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 1: Like as soon as the crime scene would was discovered, 242 00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:01,920 Speaker 1: suddenly I was in It was like in a police investigation, 243 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 1: and like at the like I was like I no 244 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 1: one was sitting me down. Was a therapist to like 245 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 1: say how are you feeling? That was not I did 246 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:12,920 Speaker 1: not get any of that kind of support. I got, 247 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 1: you know, who does she know? What did you see? 248 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 1: But like I was just like sort of bombarded with 249 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 1: like Okay, now I'm part of a police investigation, so 250 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 1: like I'm process, like I'm just trying to sort of 251 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:27,920 Speaker 1: output what is being asked of me. 252 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 2: And at this point you didn't speak Italian very well 253 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 2: or you didn't speak fluently certainly at that point. 254 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, like I could I could say things like 255 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 1: dove la biblioteca, like where is the library? Like I'm 256 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 1: not you know, I'm not I'm not remotely fluent, and 257 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:45,120 Speaker 1: so I am attempting to communicate with people who don't 258 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 1: speak the same language as me. Sometimes there's an interpreter, 259 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:50,320 Speaker 1: sometimes there isn't. Like I'm just doing the best I 260 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 1: can and I'm not sleeping. I'm being questioned for you know, 261 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:58,360 Speaker 1: ten hours a day, Like it's just so no time 262 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 1: to process. This person is gone in my life and 263 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:04,680 Speaker 1: then I'm in prison and I'm suddenly in survival mode 264 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 1: for the next eight years of my life. And in 265 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:11,639 Speaker 1: a way, one thing that this show really allowed me 266 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:16,120 Speaker 1: to do was grief. Like I didn't I didn't really 267 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:19,160 Speaker 1: know that that was going to be a big part 268 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 1: of it. But like even when talking with kJ Steinberg, 269 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:26,359 Speaker 1: who again is just was the most incredibly thoughtful and 270 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 1: like soulful person to work with, and actually Monica too, 271 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 1: because Monica Lewinsky, who eped on this project, like she 272 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:41,080 Speaker 1: understands from her own life how like being at this 273 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 1: you know, at the center of a firestorm means that 274 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 1: there is like collateral damage that impacts tons of other people, 275 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:53,960 Speaker 1: and so like, for for Monica, it was really really 276 00:17:54,000 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 1: important that we fully dimensionalize my family La Raphaela's family, 277 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:05,760 Speaker 1: because these are all people who aren't the ones who 278 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:08,240 Speaker 1: are in the headlines, but who are absolutely having their 279 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:11,919 Speaker 1: lives turned inside out because of what is happening. And 280 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:16,200 Speaker 1: then for caj like she's looking at this like, well, 281 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:20,280 Speaker 1: here's two young girls who went to go study abroad 282 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:24,920 Speaker 1: and only one of them survived, and like and then 283 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:28,679 Speaker 1: the other one in a way was forgotten, and so 284 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:32,239 Speaker 1: like a part of something so important to kJ was 285 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:36,720 Speaker 1: to show who this young woman was. And we have 286 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:40,840 Speaker 1: this incredible British actress who played her, and it just 287 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:44,600 Speaker 1: like shows we show her in those like quiet moments 288 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 1: that like I got to interact with her, you know, 289 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:50,399 Speaker 1: like when we're when we're sort of goofing around in 290 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:53,439 Speaker 1: the bathroom she's giving me a little temporary tattoo, or 291 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:56,240 Speaker 1: when we're going out to the flea market together and 292 00:18:56,600 --> 00:19:00,640 Speaker 1: eating ice cream, Like those are like the real moments 293 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 1: that I got to witness this young woman who had 294 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:09,879 Speaker 1: her whole life ahead of her. And and and we 295 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:14,560 Speaker 1: like end the series on me going back to my 296 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:19,280 Speaker 1: house to say goodbye, which I never got to do. 297 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:25,960 Speaker 3: You know, that is an incredibly I was very moved, 298 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:28,879 Speaker 3: as I said, by so much of this series and 299 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:34,520 Speaker 3: those moments, like I just they're stunning, and. 300 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:47,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, sorry, No, I mean it's not fair. It's not 301 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:53,440 Speaker 1: fair that the world got to know Meredith as a corpse, right, 302 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:54,200 Speaker 1: you know. 303 00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 2: I mean this is really you get to do her 304 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:04,280 Speaker 2: this this service. It is very much a you feel 305 00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:07,879 Speaker 2: that she was a very vibrant person, Like do you 306 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:13,400 Speaker 2: feel a real personality and a spark to her? And 307 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:20,119 Speaker 2: do you know if her family has seen the series 308 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:22,879 Speaker 2: or if they do see it, do you hope they do? 309 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 2: What do you hope they see in it? Yeah? 310 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:30,720 Speaker 1: I really hope they do. I do know though that 311 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:35,359 Speaker 1: at least the last I heard when it was announced 312 00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 1: that we were filming and developing the series, I think 313 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:42,680 Speaker 1: it was their attorney who spoke out. And their attorney 314 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 1: has always been incredibly negative towards me. He's never really 315 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:52,960 Speaker 1: he's never acknowledged my innocence for one thing. And he's 316 00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:56,719 Speaker 1: the way that his attorney has always framed it is 317 00:20:56,760 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 1: that concern about me and like was at the expense 318 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:07,680 Speaker 1: of concern for Meredith, and so he sort of blames 319 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:11,160 Speaker 1: me for Meredith being forgotten in the midst of all 320 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:11,920 Speaker 1: of the scandal. 321 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:16,720 Speaker 2: This is like another part of this that just infuriates me. 322 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:24,359 Speaker 2: And for you trying to you know, tell your own story. 323 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:27,880 Speaker 2: You didn't ask for any of this. You didn't create 324 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:32,440 Speaker 2: these false stories that the media really did. And then 325 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:38,920 Speaker 2: the prosecution just ran with and do you. So let's 326 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:41,480 Speaker 2: talk about the you know, there's a lot of talk 327 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:47,399 Speaker 2: about the main prosecutor, Menini, but there are also several 328 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:51,720 Speaker 2: women that were a part of the police team and 329 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 2: the prosecutorial team, right, and in the series, it certainly 330 00:21:56,480 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 2: makes it seem as though the female policewomen they assumed 331 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:03,680 Speaker 2: your guilt from the beginning. Can you is that accurate? 332 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:05,119 Speaker 2: And what do you think that's about? 333 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:08,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, So, one thing that was really important to me, 334 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:11,359 Speaker 1: and this was something that we were discussing early on, 335 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 1: especially when we were talking about casting and how do 336 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 1: we portray my prosecutor and the police around him. And 337 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:22,439 Speaker 1: one thing that I really fought for was to not 338 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:27,720 Speaker 1: show him just sort of operating alone, because he wasn't. 339 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:32,160 Speaker 1: He didn't operate alone. He absolutely was. He was in charge, 340 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 1: he was the one who was in charge of the investigation, 341 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:38,119 Speaker 1: but he was he was depending upon a team of 342 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:43,240 Speaker 1: people who also influenced his decision making. And that team 343 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:47,960 Speaker 1: of people had a number of very influential women in it, 344 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:51,840 Speaker 1: like the head of the homicide division in the in 345 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 1: Perusia was a woman, and she you know, I was 346 00:22:55,840 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 1: interrogated primarily by a woman, So I think it was 347 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:04,159 Speaker 1: really important to like, I think the way that this 348 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:07,360 Speaker 1: story has been told is like in the past has 349 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:11,480 Speaker 1: just been oh, one misogynistic guy, right, you know, took 350 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:14,040 Speaker 1: over this case. And it's like, well, it's more complicated 351 00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:18,080 Speaker 1: than that. Like, if you buy into the premises that 352 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:21,680 Speaker 1: they make, like the fact that only a woman would 353 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:25,480 Speaker 1: cover another woman's body with a blanket, you can logically 354 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:29,080 Speaker 1: deduce a lot of the stuff that they logically deduced. 355 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:33,159 Speaker 1: The problem is their premise, and that is where I 356 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:37,119 Speaker 1: think it's a really interesting examination of like people didn't 357 00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:41,160 Speaker 1: It's not like people just made up stuff maliciously. They 358 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 1: made up stuff that made sense to them without realizing 359 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 1: that they had drawn a conclusion that was wrong from 360 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:51,200 Speaker 1: the very beginning, from. 361 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:54,480 Speaker 2: The beginning, right yeah, like based in zero evidence, because 362 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 2: that's what I think was so confusing reading about in 363 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:02,080 Speaker 2: the papers and things, I remember thinking, but wait, wait 364 00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:05,359 Speaker 2: a second, why did she do this? Like it never 365 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 2: made any sense there, It never made any logical sense, unless, 366 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 2: of course, you know, you're a psychopathic killer, you know, right, 367 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:19,959 Speaker 2: so it never made any logical sense, but that this 368 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 2: idea that once something is said and it's put into 369 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:28,280 Speaker 2: the pipeline, it's impossible to unravel it and then it's 370 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:30,960 Speaker 2: like it just kept Yeah, that's. 371 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 1: Really yeah, like the I think the engine of the 372 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:36,760 Speaker 1: series and like the theme, Like the great theme of 373 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:39,880 Speaker 1: the series is something that kJ Steinberg came up with, 374 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:44,119 Speaker 1: which was the anatomy of bias, Like how how does 375 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:48,800 Speaker 1: how do you how do you derive this story from 376 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:52,679 Speaker 1: certain biases? And what is the difference between a fact 377 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:56,119 Speaker 1: and an opinion? Like that is like the key thing 378 00:24:56,320 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 1: because again, like if you if you're if what you like, 379 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:05,480 Speaker 1: if what you see is a body covered with a blanket, 380 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:08,320 Speaker 1: that is a fact. There is a body, it's covered 381 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:11,840 Speaker 1: with a blanket. An opinion is that only a woman 382 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,800 Speaker 1: would cover that body with a blanket. But if you 383 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:19,080 Speaker 1: think your opinion is a fact, then that that leads 384 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:24,080 Speaker 1: to a whole body of work. That right, and like 385 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:26,920 Speaker 1: that that is the key thing. So it doesn't take 386 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:30,639 Speaker 1: like an evil mastermind to come up with these false stories. 387 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:35,399 Speaker 1: It just takes someone who doesn't recognize that there the 388 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:37,480 Speaker 1: difference between an opinion and a fact on a. 389 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 2: Fact, right, do you think there is a general bias 390 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:59,360 Speaker 2: against American women in this it's a very provincial culture 391 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:01,040 Speaker 2: in this tiny town in Italy. 392 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:04,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, so you know, I do think that that played 393 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:09,679 Speaker 1: a role. So Perusha, Italy is a small town. It 394 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:12,960 Speaker 1: also is a student town. It has a student population 395 00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:16,879 Speaker 1: that is quite significant. There are two universities in a 396 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:20,280 Speaker 1: small town, and a lot of the foreign students who 397 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:24,640 Speaker 1: come to stay there are only there for like three months. 398 00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:27,720 Speaker 1: So I was actually scheduled to be there for a 399 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:29,600 Speaker 1: whole year. For nine months. I was there for a 400 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 1: school year, so I was going to be there much longer, 401 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:37,480 Speaker 1: and I was more prepared to like really settle in 402 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:41,000 Speaker 1: and like create relationships. But like there is and I 403 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 1: think this is true of young people, like it was 404 00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 1: for some people. Their study abroad experience is a little 405 00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:50,199 Speaker 1: bit like an extended spring break, right, Like everything's just 406 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:53,240 Speaker 1: a little bit more like you're doing a little less 407 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 1: homework and having a little more fun and so like 408 00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:01,199 Speaker 1: there was this kind of assumption or it was a 409 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 1: very easy thing for people to sort of do, was 410 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:09,359 Speaker 1: to say, oh, here's an American girl gone wild, like 411 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:11,679 Speaker 1: we've seen on all of the Girl Gone Wild tapes, 412 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:15,840 Speaker 1: who who now that she's out of the United States, 413 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 1: has become unhinged and has orchestrated a murder orgy. 414 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:28,119 Speaker 2: Like right, it's like that jump from A to triple Z, Like, 415 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 2: I don't that was I. 416 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:32,919 Speaker 1: Think there was also a little bit something that I 417 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:37,560 Speaker 1: was not prepared for, which was an American girl is 418 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:42,639 Speaker 1: considered exotic in Italy, like I like, I've I've never 419 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 1: in my life, you know, in Seattle, but treated or 420 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:56,080 Speaker 1: quite considered exotic, and so suddenly to suddenly be oh, 421 00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,479 Speaker 1: like that was just like what are you talking about? 422 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:03,480 Speaker 1: Like so that like that level, I just like didn't 423 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:07,159 Speaker 1: understand that. And I think that that also played a 424 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:11,679 Speaker 1: role in the hyper sexualization of me at like and 425 00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:15,239 Speaker 1: the eroticization of as a young person was because I 426 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:17,960 Speaker 1: was exotic and other And. 427 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:19,880 Speaker 2: Do you think things got better? It seemed as though 428 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:23,119 Speaker 2: did they get better once you started to really learn 429 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:25,960 Speaker 2: and speak Italian? Do you feel like that had to 430 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:28,800 Speaker 2: define better? Well? 431 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:32,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean because by the time, you know, by 432 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:35,919 Speaker 1: the time I was two years in and I was, 433 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:39,200 Speaker 1: you know, two years into my trial, I was fluent 434 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:41,440 Speaker 1: in Italian by then. But that's when I got convicted, 435 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 1: like the train had already left the station, and there 436 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:46,520 Speaker 1: was little to nothing that I could do about it. 437 00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:51,959 Speaker 1: Once I became fluent, it did mean that I was 438 00:28:52,280 --> 00:29:01,760 Speaker 1: able to better navigate my life in prisonsolutely, and I 439 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:05,200 Speaker 1: was better able to express myself in a court of law. 440 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:08,400 Speaker 1: But like I was trying to dig myself out of 441 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:12,280 Speaker 1: a grave at that point, Like there was already so 442 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:19,440 Speaker 1: much stacked against me that little old me speaking quasi 443 00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 1: fluent Italian, like it's there was still the problem of 444 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 1: people not believing me that part. I. 445 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:33,600 Speaker 2: Well, two things. One, the legal system in Italy it 446 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:38,200 Speaker 2: is diametrically opposed to the American system. And you know, 447 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:41,760 Speaker 2: I always feel like, oh, our legal system is so 448 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:44,400 Speaker 2: flawed in so many ways, and then I see this 449 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:50,200 Speaker 2: and I say, holy crow, it is far better than 450 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:52,600 Speaker 2: what was going on there, Like can you talk about that? 451 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:57,640 Speaker 2: Were you aware of how the botch DNA that nothing 452 00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:02,080 Speaker 2: There was literally no evidence that actual placed you there, 453 00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:05,200 Speaker 2: aside from the fact that you lived in that house, 454 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,760 Speaker 2: so of course your DNA would be in various places. 455 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:14,800 Speaker 2: But were you aware of how sort of outrageous this 456 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:17,120 Speaker 2: was the way the trial was going? 457 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:22,719 Speaker 1: So no, and to be fair, Like I didn't know 458 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:26,240 Speaker 1: really anything about our judicial system either. Like again, I 459 00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:28,840 Speaker 1: was a twenty year old kid who was into Harry Potter, 460 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:33,080 Speaker 1: Like I didn't. I was not watching the CSI I 461 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:35,400 Speaker 1: was not watching Law and Order. That was just not 462 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:41,640 Speaker 1: that wasn't. So I was the most ignorant person approaching 463 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:46,320 Speaker 1: these systems that were way more powerful and way bigger 464 00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:49,640 Speaker 1: than me. And so it was an education. It was 465 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,240 Speaker 1: an education for me as I was going through it, 466 00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:54,520 Speaker 1: and then it became an education for me after I 467 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:56,800 Speaker 1: came out and I was able to learn more about 468 00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 1: our system and compare the differences. But like it was 469 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:03,760 Speaker 1: a talk, it was also an education for again k J. 470 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:07,120 Speaker 1: Steinberg are showrunner and the writers of this series, because 471 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:10,680 Speaker 1: they also had to like learn about these like interesting 472 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:16,240 Speaker 1: little like specific, weird little things about the Italian system 473 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:19,080 Speaker 1: that are not over here in the US. And I 474 00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:22,880 Speaker 1: think that that absolutely deserved the ameile treatment. Like yeah, 475 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:26,320 Speaker 1: you know, like yes, that great scene of sort of 476 00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:28,760 Speaker 1: like going through the courtroom and being like, Okay, who's 477 00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:31,280 Speaker 1: that guy, who's that guy? Who? Yes, what's going on here? 478 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:34,760 Speaker 1: And and so the fact that like criminal cases are 479 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:37,720 Speaker 1: tried at the very same time that civil cases are tried, 480 00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:40,720 Speaker 1: and that evidence that can be used for the civil 481 00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:44,200 Speaker 1: trial cannot be used for the criminal part of it. 482 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:46,040 Speaker 1: But the jury is supposed to be able to hear 483 00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:51,200 Speaker 1: both and be able to determine which is relevant. Like that, 484 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 1: that is just something that would be inconceivable here in 485 00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:57,960 Speaker 1: the United States. And just the overwhelming Like you're in 486 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,280 Speaker 1: a courtroom and there's not just a prosecution, and there's 487 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:02,760 Speaker 1: all of these lawyers that are civil attorneys who are 488 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:06,080 Speaker 1: acting as prosecutors. So you're just like, you know, there's 489 00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:09,160 Speaker 1: like five prosecutors against one, you know, one or two 490 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:13,680 Speaker 1: defense attorneys, and you're right, right, like yeah, it's it's wild, 491 00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:17,480 Speaker 1: but you know, like to be fair here. I don't 492 00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:19,240 Speaker 1: know if you're curious about this or not, but there 493 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:22,480 Speaker 1: is something I'm sure I am. Well, there's a there's 494 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:27,000 Speaker 1: an interesting tweetl Oh. Of course. The other major difference 495 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:31,760 Speaker 1: between the Italian inquisitorial system and our adversarial system is 496 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:40,120 Speaker 1: that prosecutors in Italy are are less. They're not considered biased. 497 00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:44,040 Speaker 1: They're they're considered like the first judge, and that's why 498 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:48,360 Speaker 1: the judge, like, that's why they are in charge of investigations. 499 00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:50,880 Speaker 1: Is because they're the ones who are supposed to be 500 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:57,400 Speaker 1: like judging what the police are doing and and guaranteeing 501 00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:00,960 Speaker 1: like the you know, the the legal and the human 502 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:04,600 Speaker 1: rights of what how the investigation is unfolding. But and like, 503 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:06,840 Speaker 1: if you were to ask my prosecutor, he says, well, 504 00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:11,920 Speaker 1: that's much better than the adversarial system because I'm I'm unbiased. 505 00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:14,280 Speaker 1: But I'm like, dude, you are so fucking biased. 506 00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:15,320 Speaker 2: You're so biased. 507 00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:18,320 Speaker 1: What do you think you think you're not biased? Like 508 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:21,960 Speaker 1: you're in charge of the investigation, whereas like in our system, 509 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:26,240 Speaker 1: there's a little more separation between the police and the prosecution. 510 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:28,360 Speaker 1: The police build the case, then they present it to 511 00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,880 Speaker 1: the prosecution, and the prosecution has to determine whether or 512 00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:36,960 Speaker 1: not it merits being brought forth in a trial. Now, 513 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:39,600 Speaker 1: of course, there's also bias in that because police work 514 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:42,960 Speaker 1: very closely with prosecutors. There's like insider blah blah blah. 515 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:46,360 Speaker 1: Like the system is imperfect. But an interesting thing that 516 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:49,720 Speaker 1: the Italian system does, which I think is unequivocally better 517 00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:54,720 Speaker 1: than here in the United States, is that all verdicts 518 00:33:54,800 --> 00:34:00,440 Speaker 1: in Italy have to be motivated. So what that means 519 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,320 Speaker 1: is that a verdict is handed down, and then the 520 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:07,480 Speaker 1: jury and the judge have to write a document explaining 521 00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:11,160 Speaker 1: why they came to a specific verdict. They have to say, 522 00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:13,680 Speaker 1: this is the evidence that we looked at. We found 523 00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:17,440 Speaker 1: this testimony to be reliable, this testimony not reliable. We 524 00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:21,560 Speaker 1: believe this expert not that expert. And what that does 525 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:26,160 Speaker 1: is it allows you to take that document and then go, well, 526 00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:28,280 Speaker 1: that doesn't you know, that's not logical, or that doesn't 527 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:30,960 Speaker 1: make sense, or that testimony recanted, whatever it may be. 528 00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:34,920 Speaker 1: It's not like this sort of sacred and secret mystery 529 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:39,000 Speaker 1: that you have to guess about when you when you 530 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:42,240 Speaker 1: appeal something. Here in the United States, the jury's decision 531 00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:46,880 Speaker 1: is secret and sacred, and all you can know about 532 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:50,200 Speaker 1: how they came to their conclusion is the verdict. That's it. 533 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:55,000 Speaker 1: So like that's a huge difference that And I think 534 00:34:55,040 --> 00:35:02,759 Speaker 1: the possibility of correcting an injustice is made easier by 535 00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:06,560 Speaker 1: the fact that there is a document that explicitly lays 536 00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:10,359 Speaker 1: out here's how we came to our determination, and then 537 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:13,400 Speaker 1: someone later on can come and say, well, I have 538 00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:15,120 Speaker 1: evidence to the contrary. 539 00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:17,799 Speaker 2: Right, right, that is, I mean, we could use a 540 00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:19,840 Speaker 2: little bit of that for sure. 541 00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:24,160 Speaker 1: It's transparency. I mean, it's just transparansparency right now. 542 00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:26,759 Speaker 2: All right, we're gonna leave it there for today, But 543 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:30,000 Speaker 2: there is much more of this fascinating conversation with Amanda 544 00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:31,279 Speaker 2: Knox still to come.