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Speaker 3: Hey Daniel, I've noticed that people just add quantum the

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Speaker 3: word quantum do things to make them sound cool.

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Speaker 1: Oh man, I hate when they do that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, like quantum combs, quantum serial. I mean it's it's

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Speaker 3: like they put it on everything just to make it

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Speaker 3: sound awesome.

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Speaker 1: Yep. I would see quantum dog food recently, and I'm

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Speaker 1: pretty sure that's not a real fact.

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Speaker 3: Your dog both loves it and hates it at the

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Speaker 3: same time. But does that mean that just all of

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Speaker 3: quantum mechanics is like a scam.

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Speaker 1: Not all of it? Like, there really is some physics

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Speaker 1: in quantum mechanics, but I'd say most things that are

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Speaker 1: called quantum are probably blooney.

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Speaker 3: I am Jorge, I'm a cartoonist and the creator of

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Speaker 3: PhD Comics.

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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Daniel. I'm a quantum physicist and that is

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Speaker 1: not blooney.

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Speaker 3: Oh well, just so happens. I'm a cartoon Bologny cartoonist.

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Speaker 3: So this all brings it together and welcome to our podcast,

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Speaker 3: Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe, a production of Idio.

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Speaker 1: In which we explore everything that's crazy and amazing about

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Speaker 1: the universe, from classical physics to quantum mechanics, and explain

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Speaker 1: it to you in a way that you can explain

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Speaker 1: to your friends and sound super smart.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, in ways that we do explain it and don't

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Speaker 3: explain it at the same time. We're sort of like

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Speaker 3: a quantum podcast in a way.

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Speaker 1: We download individual, discritized units of explanation into your brain.

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Speaker 3: We spin it up and spin it down for you guys.

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Speaker 1: But quantum mechanics is one of my favorite topics because

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Speaker 1: it is so hard for people to understand usually, but

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Speaker 1: there are ways to look at quantum mechanics and get

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Speaker 1: a new sense of the world, to reveal the reality

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Speaker 1: that underlies everything.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's your favorite because people don't understand it.

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Speaker 1: It's my favorite because it's a great example of how

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Speaker 1: in physics, we can learn that the world is really

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Speaker 1: quite different from the world we expected it to be,

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Speaker 1: that the world we grew up in is not the

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Speaker 1: way the world works. That to really understand the universe,

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Speaker 1: we have to remove our blind and quantum mechanics is

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Speaker 1: a great example of that because it requires basically tossing

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Speaker 1: out your entire intuition for how the world works and

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Speaker 1: accepting something very different.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I feel like that every day that I wake

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Speaker 3: up and read the news, I'm like, what is this

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Speaker 3: universe we're living in?

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Speaker 1: What quantum politics is that you're talking about?

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Speaker 3: It's just the quantum news, We'll say, it's just the quantum.

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Speaker 3: It makes sense and doesn't make sense at the same time.

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Speaker 3: It's about a dead cat and in a life cat

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Speaker 3: all at the same time.

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Speaker 1: I feel like quantum mechanics is something a lot of

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Speaker 1: people are fascinated by. They've heard about it, they hear

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Speaker 1: people use words to explain it that don't quite make

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Speaker 1: sense to them, and so people are thirsty for a real,

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Speaker 1: honest to god understandable explanation for some of this bizarre

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Speaker 1: quantum phenomena.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and it sort of seems, like you said, it

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Speaker 3: almost seems like two different universes. You know. There's like

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Speaker 3: the universe that you grew up in as a kid

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Speaker 3: and feel you understand where you take a ball and

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Speaker 3: you balance it and comes back and you can throw

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Speaker 3: a baseball and it lands where you think it's going

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Speaker 3: to land. And then there's is the kind of the

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Speaker 3: quantum universe you learned later on in life, where like

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Speaker 3: none of those things you learn as a kid seem

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Speaker 3: to apply.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, precisely, because your brain develops all these ideas for

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Speaker 1: how things move based on what you've experienced. Things seem

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Speaker 1: to move through the universe, it seems like they have

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Speaker 1: a smooth path, and so later to grow up and

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Speaker 1: learn that things don't actually move, They just have these snapshots,

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Speaker 1: and then those later snapshots in your brain is filling

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Speaker 1: in the in between slices to make like a movie

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Speaker 1: of the universe. Is quite shocking. I wonder if we

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Speaker 1: had evolved to be much much smaller, if we would

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Speaker 1: have sort of a quantum intuition, if we like had

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Speaker 1: everyday experiences of quantum objects.

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Speaker 3: You mean, like if it's taught at the preschool level,

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Speaker 3: if we try to teach kids quantum physics.

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Speaker 1: No, I can't think we should be doing shorting equations.

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Speaker 3: You know, I mean coloring one plus one, spin up,

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Speaker 3: spin down, you know, just the basics that you need

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Speaker 3: to deal with this crazy world we're living in.

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Speaker 1: But I think that people would still struggle because they

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Speaker 1: don't have any actual experience with it. I'm talking about

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Speaker 1: really experiencing quantum mechanics, Like what if there were quantum

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Speaker 1: effects that were macroscopic, you know, if things that were

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Speaker 1: the sides of baseballs operated under quantum rules. It's pretty

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Speaker 1: hard to reveal that the universe is quantum mechanical. It

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Speaker 1: took us thousands of years before we figure that out. Right,

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Speaker 1: what if it wasn't so subtle, what if it was

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Speaker 1: more obvious and so people actually had an intuition for this,

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Speaker 1: they're like, oh, electrons, Yeah, those move just like these

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Speaker 1: other quantum basketballs or whatever that.

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Speaker 3: I was playing with in my kindergarten playground. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe that's the next wave of physics education, is

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Speaker 1: we need to develop some sort of technology that operates

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Speaker 1: like quantum objects so kids can play with like quantum balls.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, it does seem like it's kind of a

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Speaker 3: separate and new universe, and it feels like there's a

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Speaker 3: quantum version of almost anything. Like for anything that we

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Speaker 3: have in our world used to be like a quantum

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Speaker 3: version of it. Like you know, I know I can

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Speaker 3: spin here in my chair, and there's also something called

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Speaker 3: quantum spin, and you know my battery has charged it,

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Speaker 3: but there's also something called quantum charge, and so on

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Speaker 3: and so on.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's even quantum flavor.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you think in kindergarten that there's only sweet and

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Speaker 3: salty and sour, but there's also quantum flavor.

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Speaker 1: And we have quantum color. We had whole podcast episodes

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Speaker 1: about all these properties.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so you could go to quantum kindergarten too and

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Speaker 3: earn quantum sharing and quantum quantum.

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Speaker 1: And in some cases these things are metaphors, like quantum flavor.

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Speaker 1: These particles don't actually taste like anything, but we're trying

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Speaker 1: to make an analogy. We're trying to extrapolate from something

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Speaker 1: we know, which is flavor, and give you a sense

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Speaker 1: for this weird new quantum thing. But in other case,

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Speaker 1: is it really does make sense, like quantum spin. Those

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Speaker 1: particles are not spinning in the same way, but they

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Speaker 1: really do have angular momentum, so spin really makes sense.

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Speaker 1: So in some cases the words are you know, really

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Speaker 1: a stretch. In some cases they really are are applicable.

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Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, that was a pretty good way to just

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Speaker 3: sput it there.

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Speaker 1: That's quantum spin, right, she.

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Speaker 3: So obvious and but yeah, but sometimes, you know, I

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Speaker 3: wonder sometimes I wonder if physics are pushing it a

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Speaker 3: little bit too much. And so today on the podcast,

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Speaker 3: we have a great question from a listener that we're

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Speaker 3: going to try to answer, and this is a question

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Speaker 3: from Dale from Dublin. We had a very interesting question

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Speaker 3: about another strange sounding quantum thing.

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Speaker 1: Here's Dale Dale from Toblin oiland here I heard about

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Speaker 1: aything called quantum phone or spacetime phone. Could you talk

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Speaker 1: about with that for a bit and let us know

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Speaker 1: what it is? Cheers toning some minute. Well, I love

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Speaker 1: so many things about this. First of all, I love

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Speaker 1: Dale's accent awesome, and I love that Dale wrote in.

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Speaker 1: This is just an email he sent me saying, Hey,

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Speaker 1: could you explain this? And I asked him to send

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Speaker 1: us of recording so we could talk about it on

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Speaker 1: air because I thought a lot of people might be

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Speaker 1: interested in the answer to this question. So thank you

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Speaker 1: Dale for writing in, and thank you to everybody who

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Speaker 1: writes in with their questions right.

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Speaker 3: And just as a reminder, we are on Instagram and

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Speaker 3: Twitter at Daniel and Jorge And if you want Daniel

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Speaker 3: to answer back, try Twitter or the email because Instagram

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Speaker 3: will not answer your question.

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Speaker 1: I don't do quantum social media. Yeah, so if you

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Speaker 1: have a question, send it on into questions at Danielanjorge

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Speaker 1: dot com or engage with us on Twitter at Daniel

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Speaker 1: and Jorge.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so this is an interesting question. Quantum foam. It

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Speaker 3: sort of sort of sounds like one of these products

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Speaker 3: that you sell in late night television that will totally

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Speaker 3: clean your bathroom at the molecular level.

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Speaker 1: I think a lot of times in marketing, quantum is

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Speaker 1: just used to describe something to make a sound more

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Speaker 1: modern or technological, you know, like like quantum dog food.

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Speaker 1: That really is a thing. I mean it's not, that'sually

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Speaker 1: your quant mechanical Well no, google quantum dog food. There

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Speaker 1: is a product. They really do sell dog food and

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Speaker 1: call it quantum. I think what they mean by that

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Speaker 1: is new fancy, you know, savvy to the quantum mechanical world.

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Speaker 3: Somehow new fancy. Yeah, well that's kind of what you

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Speaker 3: guys do in physics as well, isn't it. Oh, this

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Speaker 3: is a charge, but it's kind of new and fancy.

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Speaker 3: We'll call it quantum quantum charge.

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Speaker 1: But wait no, but it actually is new and fancy.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes we do discover stuff in physics that's new and fancy.

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Speaker 1: All of quantum mechanics is new and fancy. It really

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Speaker 1: does happen. It's not just marketing.

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Speaker 3: Sometimes dog food is new and fancy. Why not? And

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Speaker 3: coman discritized little chunks?

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Speaker 1: That's true. Yeah, all right, so I should order that

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Speaker 1: product and I should evaluate it before I give my

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Speaker 1: opinion on it.

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Speaker 3: You're totally right, and quantum dog food. Please give us

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Speaker 3: a call. We are opening for a sponsorship.

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Speaker 1: In this podcast, I was wondering if Dale from Dublin

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Speaker 1: was the only person thinking about space time foam, And

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Speaker 1: so I walked around and I asked people what they

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Speaker 1: thought about space time foam. Had they heard of it?

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Speaker 1: Did they know what Dale was talking about? Did they

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Speaker 1: have any idea what it was? And these questions again

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Speaker 1: didn't happen to you, see, Irvine. This happened at a

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Speaker 1: local coffee shop because I was trying to get a

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Speaker 1: sense for the broader public and their understanding of this topic.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so before you listen to these answers, think about

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Speaker 3: it for a second. If a physicist approached you at

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Speaker 3: a coffee shop, would you be able to answer the

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Speaker 3: question what is space time?

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Speaker 1: Foam?

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Speaker 3: Here's what people had to say.

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Speaker 1: Upper layer to space time that kind of bubbles up

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Speaker 1: or something. If that makes sense cool.

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Speaker 4: I have no idea.

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Speaker 1: I have no idea spacetime.

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Speaker 5: No space time, no space time for space.

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Speaker 6: I guess, but got space.

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Speaker 3: I'm all right. I feel like people were answering and

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Speaker 3: they were just about to call the police on these.

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Speaker 1: You start to hear that they're like, I am so

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Speaker 1: regretting answering this questions. What are you talking about?

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Speaker 3: I think? Yeah, I mean people go to a coffee

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Speaker 3: shop to wake up, and you're asking them physics questions

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Speaker 3: over their cappuccino.

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Speaker 6: Pham.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know, I specifically tried to choose people that

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Speaker 1: looked like they were studying, like they had a book

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Speaker 1: open or they were reading something, because I was hoping

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Speaker 1: to find people who were, you know, like had their

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Speaker 1: brains on or intellectually engaged in something or maybe curious

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Speaker 1: about this kind of thing. I didn't interrupt, like couples

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Speaker 1: that were smooching.

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Speaker 3: Or if they looked like they were listening to a podcast,

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Speaker 3: or like that person probably knows everything already, right.

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Speaker 1: I try to avoid people who already have their earbuds

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Speaker 1: in because I feel like in public, earbuds mean don't

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Speaker 1: talk to me.

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Speaker 3: Well, this is kind of an interesting question. A quantum foam,

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Speaker 3: and I had never heard of it. If you had

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Speaker 3: approached me at a coffee shop, I would have just said, no,

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Speaker 3: please go on, please, please ask me an easier question.

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Speaker 1: You would have been, like, you look like this other

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Speaker 1: physicist I know, and I definitely ignore him in public,

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Speaker 1: So I'm not talking to you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, as a blanket policy, that's my decision on physicists,

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Speaker 3: all right. So this is an interesting question because it's

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Speaker 3: like you're marrying two words that are very common space

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Speaker 3: time and foam, but that together really don't make any sense.

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Speaker 1: Yes, And that happens so much in quantum mechanics. People

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Speaker 1: say things that use words together and you understand the

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Speaker 1: individual words, but you don't really know what it means

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Speaker 1: when you put it together.

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Speaker 3: So we'll get into what spacetime foam is and what

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Speaker 3: we know about it, and how we might be able

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Speaker 3: to find it in this frothy little universe we live in.

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Speaker 3: All right, Dan, and we're talking about space time foam.

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Speaker 3: And it's not a weird product that you sell on

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Speaker 3: late night television. It's an actual physical theory in science.

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Speaker 3: And so let's get into that a little bit. And

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Speaker 3: I guess let's start with the first two words to

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Speaker 3: set us up for the foamy part. So let's talk

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Speaker 3: a little bit about space time, because in this case,

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Speaker 3: I think Dale from Dublin used the word as one word,

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Speaker 3: like space time, not space comma time. He called it

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Speaker 3: space time. So let's maybe refresh for our listeners what

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Speaker 3: it means to say space time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like you take two words you put them together,

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Speaker 1: or they mean something special, like green and house. You know,

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Speaker 1: a greenhouse is not just a greenhouse, right, it has

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Speaker 1: its own meaning. So in the same way space time

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Speaker 1: is sort of a special word in physics. And of

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Speaker 1: course you know it's space is space is just the

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Speaker 1: three dimensions of movement. You know, you have X, Y,

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Speaker 1: and Z. And we have a whole other episode about

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Speaker 1: like what makes up space? Is it a thing because

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Speaker 1: it can wiggle and dance and jiggle and expand and

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Speaker 1: all this stuff. But for our purposes today, let's just

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Speaker 1: think about it as sort of as the directions you

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Speaker 1: can move in X, Y, and Z. So that's what

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Speaker 1: space means.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, like the space we're in, like where we move

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Speaker 3: around in.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, precisely, nothing special there. And time is just time, right,

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Speaker 1: Time flows forwards, and you can think of time in

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Speaker 1: analogy to space. You can think of us as moving

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Speaker 1: through time the way you can move through space. And

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Speaker 1: we have a whole podcast episode digging into how time

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Speaker 1: is connected to space and how time is different from space.

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Speaker 1: But Einstein is the guy who put these two things together.

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Speaker 1: He's the first one to construct this idea of space

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Speaker 1: time by taking three dimensions of space that you can

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Speaker 1: move in and adding the time dimension to it is

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Speaker 1: sort of a fourth dimension. So together space time is

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Speaker 1: this four dimensional idea xyz and then time.

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Speaker 3: Right, I feel like you just said something profound though

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Speaker 3: you just said time is time.

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Speaker 1: That man, time is so fascinating. I could talk endlessly

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Speaker 1: about time. We could spend all of our time talking

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Speaker 1: about time. But maybe it's not time to do that.

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Speaker 3: That one phrase has made me think about my whole

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Speaker 3: life and where I'm going with it.

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Speaker 1: And well, can I sell you my new product if

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Speaker 1: called quantum time?

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Speaker 3: Well, there you go, all right, a quantum quantum watch

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Speaker 3: to keep track of the inevitability of time.

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Speaker 1: It's new and fancy and has to be charged every

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Speaker 1: fifteen minutes.

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Speaker 3: There you go, all right. So space time is this

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Speaker 3: idea that space and time are not separate. Like maybe

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Speaker 3: if you think about them all together in one package,

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Speaker 3: one four dimensional bun then it's more appropriate somehow, like

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Speaker 3: they're related, like one of them affects the other, so

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Speaker 3: therefore you should keep track of them all at the

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Speaker 3: same time precisely.

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Speaker 1: And it was Einstein's theory of special relativity that showed

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Speaker 1: us exactly how space and time are affected by each other. Specifically,

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Speaker 1: how time flows depends on where you are and how

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Speaker 1: fast you are going relative to something else, and so

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Speaker 1: in order to understand time, you can't just have time

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Speaker 1: by itself. Time is not universal. Time is local. Time

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Speaker 1: depends on where you are in space, and so it

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Speaker 1: makes much more sense to combine these two things together.

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Speaker 1: It's like having the weather, right. The weather's not the

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Speaker 1: same everywhere, so you want to talk about the weather

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Speaker 1: where you are in Buffalo, or in New Delhi or

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Speaker 1: in Barcelona, and so you pair the weather with the

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Speaker 1: location because that makes more sense.

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Speaker 3: It's called the space time weather continue which I hear.

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Speaker 1: Listen to my new quantum weather reports.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a new Doppler quantum three thousand.

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Speaker 1: That probably is a real thing. I mean, you're joking,

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Speaker 1: but there's probably some local station out there with a

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Speaker 1: quantum weather doppler.

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Speaker 3: Some local weatherman in the middle of Barcelona. And Einstein

401
00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:13,679
Speaker 3: was not crazy, right, Like, he didn't just make this

402
00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:17,320
Speaker 3: up and it didn't work. It actually works. Like bundling

403
00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:21,560
Speaker 3: space and time together does tell you something about the universe,

404
00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:25,320
Speaker 3: and it's there's been theories and experiments done to prove

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Speaker 3: that this is all for reals.

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Speaker 1: Oh, yes, Einstein was right about this. That doesn't mean

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Speaker 1: Einstein wasn't crazy. I mean, you dig into that guy's

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00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:33,760
Speaker 1: personal life. He was more than a little bit crossed.

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Speaker 1: But he was also right about space time.

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Speaker 3: All right, So that's space time. And now the question

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Speaker 3: from Dale was what is space time foam? And I

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Speaker 3: have to say, I'd never heard of this before. Is

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Speaker 3: this a new thing, is this something that's only been

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Speaker 3: around for a couple of years, or is this like

415
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Speaker 3: a fringe theory or a French theory? I don't know

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Speaker 3: either one. Is what is going on with space time foam?

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Speaker 1: Well, I can't endorse your casualist slander an entire culture there,

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Speaker 1: but it is a bit of a fringe theory. It's

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Speaker 1: one of these things. It's like it's an idea that

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Speaker 1: took hold in some people's minds, but then not a

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Speaker 1: lot of progress was made, so it's sort of just

422
00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:16,119
Speaker 1: been hanging out there, bubbling up in people's brains without

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Speaker 1: really turning into anything concrete. So it's been around for

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Speaker 1: a while, but it's not really part of the mainstream physics.

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Speaker 3: It's just been foaming up in people's research talckets.

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Speaker 1: And so I know that you keep abreast of all

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Speaker 1: the latest topics in physics, and you read all the

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00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:30,720
Speaker 1: physics journals, and that's probably why you haven't heard about

429
00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:31,320
Speaker 1: this recently.

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Speaker 3: Right, Well, at first I thought it was maybe an acronym,

431
00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:39,439
Speaker 3: like maybe foam stands for something. It's the first of

432
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Speaker 3: a multiverse, which is a new theory by Horheitch Haam.

433
00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:46,560
Speaker 3: How about how were the most awesome of all the multiverses?

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Speaker 1: And somehow Dale from Dublin knew about your theory before

435
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Speaker 1: you even thought about it and thought to ask in advance. Wow,

436
00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:55,000
Speaker 1: good job Dale.

437
00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:57,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, in other multiverses he didn't, but this one,

438
00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:02,359
Speaker 3: because it's the best, did all right, So let's let's

439
00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:05,080
Speaker 3: talk about this. So there is something called space time

440
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Speaker 3: foam that physicists think might be real and might actually

441
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:14,120
Speaker 3: kind of describe what the universe is like. So take

442
00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:17,040
Speaker 3: us through it, Daniel. What does it mean to put

443
00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:18,720
Speaker 3: the word space time and foam together?

444
00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:22,119
Speaker 1: The idea here is to try to resolve the conflict

445
00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:25,639
Speaker 1: between our two great theories of physics. We talked about

446
00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:28,600
Speaker 1: space time in terms of relativity and that all makes sense.

447
00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:31,240
Speaker 1: And relativity has been tested out the wazoo and up

448
00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:33,639
Speaker 1: the wazoo and in the wazoo, in every way around

449
00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:34,720
Speaker 1: the wazoo.

450
00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:39,720
Speaker 3: Because is that another physics experiment acronym the wazoo.

451
00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:42,280
Speaker 1: The wazoo, I'm not sure what it means.

452
00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:45,560
Speaker 3: It's a collider in Italy, apparently.

453
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:51,520
Speaker 1: It's But special relativity has been extensively tested, and so

454
00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:54,879
Speaker 1: has general relativity, but we don't know if it really

455
00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:58,960
Speaker 1: holds universally. That we have suspicions that it probably doesn't

456
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:03,520
Speaker 1: work on re really tiny distances. So general relativity says

457
00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:06,200
Speaker 1: that space is sort of smooth, that you can chop

458
00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:09,120
Speaker 1: it up into tinier and tinier bits and you'll never

459
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:11,560
Speaker 1: sort of run out of waste to cut it in half.

460
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:14,399
Speaker 1: That like in Zeno's paradox, you could take smaller and

461
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:17,760
Speaker 1: smaller steps forever. That's what general relativity says.

462
00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:20,600
Speaker 3: It predicts it, or it assumes it.

463
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,440
Speaker 1: It assumes it. It uses that as its essential description

464
00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:25,560
Speaker 1: of what space is. That you could have a particle

465
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:28,359
Speaker 1: or an object located at any point. You know, if

466
00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:31,000
Speaker 1: you have an infinite number of locations between me and you,

467
00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:33,960
Speaker 1: that a particle could be at any of those locations.

468
00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:37,080
Speaker 3: Oh, I see. It's kind of like Newtonian physics, right

469
00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:40,320
Speaker 3: almost in a way, like it assumes that space is

470
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:45,160
Speaker 3: smooth and it doesn't assume anything that's that anything is quantized.

471
00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:47,560
Speaker 1: That's right, And you look at the universe around you,

472
00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:50,720
Speaker 1: and the universe seems smooth, right, It seems like you

473
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:53,679
Speaker 1: could sit anywhere. It seems like if you took a ruler,

474
00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:56,400
Speaker 1: you could cut it in an infinite number of ways,

475
00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:58,960
Speaker 1: you know, fifty to fifty, seventy five, twenty five whatever,

476
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:01,560
Speaker 1: that there's an infinite number of ways. But just like

477
00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:04,720
Speaker 1: the screen on your iPhone, it looks really crisp and smooth,

478
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:07,280
Speaker 1: but if you zoom in, you discover that there are

479
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:10,520
Speaker 1: pixels there. And so general relativity tells us that the

480
00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:15,320
Speaker 1: universe is smooth, that space is infinitely sliceable, but that's

481
00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:19,119
Speaker 1: in conflict with quantum mechanics. Quantum mechanics says that you

482
00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:21,320
Speaker 1: can't have infinitely sliceable space.

483
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:25,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, that at the fundamental level, it's pixelated, kind of

484
00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:29,960
Speaker 3: like my iPhone screen. Although my iPhone screen these days

485
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:31,919
Speaker 3: looks kind of blurry because, as I've said before, I

486
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:32,760
Speaker 3: need reading glasses.

487
00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:35,760
Speaker 1: Now I'm not sure, that's a problem with your iPhone screen.

488
00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:37,919
Speaker 3: I think, But well it's a problem for my new

489
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:39,280
Speaker 3: quantum reading glasses.

490
00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:42,119
Speaker 1: Yeah. And so quantum mechanics has this impact on lots

491
00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:44,800
Speaker 1: of things that we measure. Things that at large scales

492
00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:48,280
Speaker 1: seem smooth turn out to be discretized, turned out to

493
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:51,800
Speaker 1: be sliced up into chunks. Like a flashlight beam is

494
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:54,960
Speaker 1: not a smooth, continuous beam of light. It's a stream

495
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,560
Speaker 1: of tiny little packets called photons. The same way your

496
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:02,399
Speaker 1: bowl of ice cream is not infinitely choppable into smaller

497
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:05,280
Speaker 1: and smaller spoonfuls. There are atoms in there. It's made

498
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,080
Speaker 1: out of these tiny little lego pieces. So the same

499
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:10,439
Speaker 1: concept can be applied to lots of things, and quantum

500
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:14,600
Speaker 1: mechanics says that probably it also applies to space. So

501
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:17,560
Speaker 1: we have this conflict between these two great theories of physics,

502
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:21,760
Speaker 1: relativity and quantum mechanics, and the conflict lies in a

503
00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:24,640
Speaker 1: place that's really hard to spot, where things are super

504
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:25,560
Speaker 1: duper small.

505
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:29,840
Speaker 3: So meaning that general relativity doesn't know that there is

506
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:34,960
Speaker 3: something called quantum physics and quantum mechanics. Quantum physics sort

507
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:39,600
Speaker 3: of we don't do we know that quantum mechanics takes

508
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:43,199
Speaker 3: into account general relativity or is there such a thing

509
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:45,040
Speaker 3: as bending of space in quantum mechanics.

510
00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:47,920
Speaker 1: So that's a great question. People have tried to say,

511
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:50,920
Speaker 1: let's take Einstein's theory of general relativity and let's make

512
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,719
Speaker 1: a quantum version of it. Can we make a version

513
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:57,800
Speaker 1: of general relativity where space is pixelated or we know

514
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:01,240
Speaker 1: quantum mechanics comes into account, and currently we have no

515
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:05,639
Speaker 1: great functioning theory like these theories. You can make a

516
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:08,679
Speaker 1: theory of general relativity that is quantized, but it doesn't

517
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:12,639
Speaker 1: work when space is really intense, like inside a black hole.

518
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:15,639
Speaker 1: When the gravity gets really really strong, then the theory

519
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 1: breaks down and predicts things that don't make sense. It

520
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:20,200
Speaker 1: gives you like infinities and all sorts of crazy numbers.

521
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:23,120
Speaker 1: So we don't currently have a working theory of what's

522
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:27,040
Speaker 1: called quantum gravity that tries to marry all the best

523
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:29,959
Speaker 1: things from general relativity and quantum mechanics.

524
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,359
Speaker 3: So does that mean that quantum mechanics operates kind of

525
00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:38,520
Speaker 3: in a Newtonian or like perfect kind of pre Einstein universe.

526
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:43,399
Speaker 1: Quantum mechanics operates often in what we call a flat space,

527
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:45,920
Speaker 1: you know space that's not bent by mass. You can

528
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:48,679
Speaker 1: do quantum mechanics in curved space, where if you're like

529
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:51,640
Speaker 1: near the Sun or near a black hole, space is curved.

530
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:54,200
Speaker 1: You can do that quantum mechanics. But if you try

531
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 1: to do it when space is too curved, when a

532
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 1: gravity gets really really strong, then it just doesn't work.

533
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 1: We just don't even have a theory. We can't like

534
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:05,359
Speaker 1: even come up with a theory that makes sensible predictions,

535
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 1: not to mention check those predictions against actual experiments.

536
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 3: All right, So it sounds like general relativity is good

537
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:14,760
Speaker 3: for kind of big distances and tells us how the

538
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:18,639
Speaker 3: universe works at large scales, and quantum mechanics tells us

539
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 3: how it works in really really tiny scales. But there

540
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:25,919
Speaker 3: are situations where the two theories just don't. Neither of

541
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:26,440
Speaker 3: them work.

542
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:29,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, and what we need to do is get inside

543
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 1: a black hole and see what happens when you have

544
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 1: both small distances. So quantum mechanics is relevant and really

545
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 1: intends gravity, So general relativity is relevant. Unfortunately, all the

546
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:42,280
Speaker 1: people we've sent it to black holes have not been coming.

547
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 3: Yeah. I was going to say that you're using the

548
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 3: word we there pretty broadly.

549
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:50,720
Speaker 1: There any volunteers out there is a black.

550
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:53,360
Speaker 3: Hole who wants to be the first person to die

551
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:54,200
Speaker 3: at a black hole.

552
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 1: And this is where the idea of space time foam

553
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:02,160
Speaker 1: comes from, from an attempt to try to reconcile these

554
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:02,840
Speaker 1: two theories.

555
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:07,119
Speaker 3: I see. It's another one of these unifying theories, like

556
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:08,879
Speaker 3: theories of everything precisely.

557
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:12,440
Speaker 1: There's one theory that says maybe the universe is made

558
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:16,280
Speaker 1: out of tiny little loops. That's called loop quantum gravity.

559
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 1: Another one says maybe everything is just a tiny vibrating string.

560
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 1: That's string theory. And there's even one called spin foam,

561
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:27,399
Speaker 1: where everything is like this weird spinning kind of foam.

562
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:31,240
Speaker 1: But space time foam is a particular theory that tries

563
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:35,440
Speaker 1: to unify quantum mechanics and general relativity, and it imagines

564
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:39,200
Speaker 1: space is being made of these tiny little pixels. But

565
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:43,720
Speaker 1: these pixels would be quantum mechanical, and so like bubbles

566
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:46,160
Speaker 1: in a frothing foam, they might like pop in and

567
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:47,080
Speaker 1: out of existence.

568
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:49,600
Speaker 3: All right, let's get people in the loop of this

569
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 3: and get a little bit more into what quantum foam

570
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 3: or space time folam is and how we know about

571
00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 3: it and what we might discover if we poke around

572
00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:02,920
Speaker 3: in the universe. But first, let's take another quick break.

573
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 1: When you pop a piece of cheese into your mouth

574
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,440
Speaker 1: or enjoy a rich spoonful of Greek yogurt, you're probably

575
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 1: not thinking about the environmental impact of each and every bite.

576
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 1: But the people in the dairy industry are. US Dairy

577
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:23,520
Speaker 1: has set themselves some ambitious sustainability goals, including being greenhouse

578
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:26,120
Speaker 1: gas neutral by twenty to fifty That's why they're working

579
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:28,480
Speaker 1: hard every day to find new ways to reduce waste,

580
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 1: conserve natural resources, and drive down greenhouse gas emissions. Take water,

581
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:35,920
Speaker 1: for example, most dairy farms reuse water up to four

582
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,440
Speaker 1: times the same water cools the milk, cleans equipment, washes

583
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 1: the barn, and irrigates the crops. How is US dairy

584
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:46,080
Speaker 1: tackling greenhouse gases? Many farms use anaerobic digestors that turn

585
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 1: the methane from maneuver into renewable energy that can power farms, towns,

586
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:52,120
Speaker 1: and electric cars. So the next time you grab a

587
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 1: slice of pizza or lick an ice cream cone, know

588
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 1: that dairy farmers and processors around the country are using

589
00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:00,440
Speaker 1: the latest practices and innovations to provide the neutral intense

590
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:03,280
Speaker 1: dairy products we love with less of an impact. Visit

591
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 1: us dairy dot com slash sustainability to learn more.

592
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:10,680
Speaker 5: There are children, friends, and families walking, riding on paths

593
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 5: and roads every day. Remember they're real people with loved

594
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 5: ones who need them to get home safely. Protect our

595
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 5: cyclists and pedestrians because they're people too. Go Safely California

596
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 5: from the California Office of Traffic Safety and Caltrans.

597
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 6: When it comes to business, the people who succeed tend

598
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,240
Speaker 6: to be the people who seek out partners with skills

599
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600
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601
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602
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603
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604
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605
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606
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 3: All right, Daniel. Quantum foam is kind of like quantum

607
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:06,000
Speaker 3: dog food in that you know you're trying to make

608
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 3: something that your dog will both eat and enjoy at

609
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 3: the same time, we're trying to make something that explains

610
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:17,480
Speaker 3: both general relativity and quantum mechanics and that your dog

611
00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 3: will like, I guess also at the same time. And

612
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:23,480
Speaker 3: so and that's hard because, as you said, they're sort

613
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 3: of based on two very different views of the universe.

614
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:29,480
Speaker 1: That's right. And you know, for relativity to work, what

615
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 1: we need is a new imagining of it. We need

616
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 1: to start from a different conception of what space is.

617
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:38,200
Speaker 1: Einstein assumed that space was smooth and continuous, and he

618
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:40,920
Speaker 1: built his theory upon that assumption. So we need to

619
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:43,280
Speaker 1: start from a different assumption and say, actually, space is

620
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 1: made of these tiny grains or these little bubbles, and

621
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 1: understand the nature of those and then build a theory

622
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:50,760
Speaker 1: on top of that. And I don't know if this

623
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 1: is true. It's not clear that space time foam is

624
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:56,800
Speaker 1: a real description of space. You know, it might be

625
00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:59,840
Speaker 1: that pixels are a better description, or loops or little strings,

626
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 1: or we really just don't know, but we need a

627
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:04,920
Speaker 1: new idea. And so theorists are just sort of being

628
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 1: creative and smoking banana peels and saying, well, maybe it's

629
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 1: more like this, And you know, you look around the

630
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:13,560
Speaker 1: macroscopic universe to get inspiration, you know, and maybe some

631
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,840
Speaker 1: physicists was smoking a banana peel and looking at soap

632
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:19,600
Speaker 1: bubbles and thinking, huh, maybe space is just like that.

633
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:25,160
Speaker 3: Well it's interesting because I feel like, you know, there's

634
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 3: these two theories, and it's not like you're saying, like, oh,

635
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 3: maybe quantum mechanics is wrong, and really we just need

636
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 3: to extend general relativity, or you're not saying, oh, general

637
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:38,280
Speaker 3: relativity is wrong, we just need to extend quantum mechanics.

638
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:41,200
Speaker 3: I feel like you're saying that we need to throw

639
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 3: both of these into the garbage and kind of come

640
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 3: up with one theory, start over, reimagine the universe, and

641
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:51,920
Speaker 3: come up with one theory that you know, sort of

642
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:54,640
Speaker 3: looks like one and looks at the other, but actually

643
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:58,240
Speaker 3: kind of works continuously across the whole universe.

644
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:01,160
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, we don't know what the necessary process will be.

645
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 1: It might be that we can take what we have

646
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:06,800
Speaker 1: from general relativity and from quantum mechanics and marry them,

647
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 1: or it might be that, yeah, we have to toss

648
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 1: it out and start all over again. The process of

649
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:14,000
Speaker 1: science is iterative, right, It's like a writer writing a

650
00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 1: draft of a screenplay. Or something. You just keep trying

651
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:18,160
Speaker 1: to make it better and better until it fits, and

652
00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:20,360
Speaker 1: then at some point you realize, you know what, this

653
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 1: is hot mess of garbage and you just got to

654
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:24,920
Speaker 1: toss it out and start all over again. So we

655
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:27,280
Speaker 1: don't know. We don't know if you know we're one

656
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 1: more draft away from something we can publish, or if

657
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:31,960
Speaker 1: we've got to toss it all out and start on

658
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:32,480
Speaker 1: the next.

659
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 3: Book right, or maybe the studio head goes, well, it's

660
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:37,600
Speaker 3: too late. Let's just make this bad movie and.

661
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 1: Can you make it twenty five percent funnier?

662
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:43,160
Speaker 3: And we live in that universe that should never have

663
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:47,560
Speaker 3: been made, where the plot twists don't make any sense

664
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:51,080
Speaker 3: and the acting is stiffid best.

665
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:53,080
Speaker 1: That's even better than do we live in a simulation?

666
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:53,240
Speaker 6: Is?

667
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 1: Do we live in a poorly written simulation? I like that?

668
00:33:58,160 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 3: Oh, we should do it.

669
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:01,719
Speaker 1: I got notes for you simulation authors. Okay, here's how

670
00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:03,040
Speaker 1: you should have done the simulation.

671
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:06,120
Speaker 3: Here's what Rotten Tomato says about your universe.

672
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:12,279
Speaker 1: Physicist ratings on universe simulations. I like it.

673
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 3: There you go, Quantum Rotten Tomatoes is the name of

674
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:18,600
Speaker 3: my new website. Check it out, all right, So step

675
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 3: us through. What is quantum foam then? Is it? What

676
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 3: does it foam mean? Why is it foam? Does it

677
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:26,520
Speaker 3: bubbles in it? Is it like a froth? Why is

678
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:27,640
Speaker 3: it called quantum foam?

679
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:31,359
Speaker 1: Yeah? The idea is that quantum mechanical things fluctuate. They

680
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:33,920
Speaker 1: come in and out of existence. If you zoom into

681
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:37,520
Speaker 1: particles at the smallest scale, you can't follow them along

682
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 1: the way you would follow a baseball. They sort of

683
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 1: pop into existence and pop out of existence. They turn

684
00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 1: into other particles. It's like a constant mess, right, And

685
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:48,280
Speaker 1: so lots of things are happening.

686
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,160
Speaker 3: Like it's bubbling at the surface, kind of like foam.

687
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 3: Those are the things in space and times. This is

688
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:55,240
Speaker 3: saying that space time itself is like a phone, right.

689
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:57,799
Speaker 1: And so if space itself is quantized, it's made out

690
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 1: of these pixels, and these pixels are quantum mechanical, then

691
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:03,920
Speaker 1: it's possible that the pixels themselves are sort of bubbling

692
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:06,319
Speaker 1: in and out of existence. It's one step to go

693
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 1: from space is smooth to space is discrete. Right, it's

694
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 1: made of pixels. It's another to say maybe those pixels

695
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:16,920
Speaker 1: themselves are not like permanent, they're like temporary, you know,

696
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:19,880
Speaker 1: they're ephemeral. They're coming in and out of existence because

697
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:21,920
Speaker 1: in the end, a lot of quantum mechanical things.

698
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:25,480
Speaker 3: Are Space itself is coming into and out of existence.

699
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:29,160
Speaker 3: Like yeah, like this bit of space right in front

700
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 3: of my eyes here precisely.

701
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:32,600
Speaker 1: You know the object in front of you, for example,

702
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 1: whatever it is, it's in front of you right now,

703
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:36,120
Speaker 1: it's a banana, or it's an apple or whatever that's

704
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:38,719
Speaker 1: made of quantum mechanical particles. Now it seems solid, it

705
00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 1: seems like it's really there. But if you zoomed in

706
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:43,319
Speaker 1: on the little particles, the particles that make it up

707
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:45,680
Speaker 1: are popping in and out of existence. They're turning into energy,

708
00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:48,400
Speaker 1: they're turning back into particles, they're changing into other particles

709
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:50,880
Speaker 1: and then coming back. You don't even notice, right, So

710
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:53,239
Speaker 1: that phone or whatever in front of you is a

711
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 1: frothing mess, but you just don't notice it frothing because

712
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:59,239
Speaker 1: the frothing is so tiny. So if it's hard for

713
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:01,880
Speaker 1: you to imagine, like space itself could also be frothing.

714
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 1: Remember everything around you is kind of frothing.

715
00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:07,960
Speaker 3: Oh wait, so this would be like under the quantum particles,

716
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:11,280
Speaker 3: Like you could have a quantum particle and it's really tiny,

717
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:14,680
Speaker 3: but the space it is sitting on could be bubbling

718
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 3: underneath it. Is that what you're saying precisely.

719
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 1: And remember that in modern quantum mechanics, we don't even

720
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:22,920
Speaker 1: really think of particles as like the basic element of

721
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:26,319
Speaker 1: stuff in the universe. Particles are just excited states of

722
00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:29,879
Speaker 1: quantum fields, and quantum fields that we had a whole

723
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:33,600
Speaker 1: episode on are a property of space itself. So you

724
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:36,800
Speaker 1: can't really separate the matter and the space because matter

725
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:39,080
Speaker 1: is just an excited state of quantum fields, which are

726
00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:39,920
Speaker 1: a part of space.

727
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:43,880
Speaker 3: But is the space time foam on the same scale

728
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:46,719
Speaker 3: as the particles, Like you know what I mean? Like,

729
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:49,040
Speaker 3: what if there's a particle that just happens to be

730
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:52,360
Speaker 3: sitting on a space time bubble and that bubble pops?

731
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:55,800
Speaker 3: Does that particle just disappear or is it like riding

732
00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:58,960
Speaker 3: on top of a whole bunch of little space time bubbles.

733
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:01,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you have to think of particles as

734
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:05,279
Speaker 1: part of space because particles are again excited states of

735
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:07,840
Speaker 1: these fields, and the fields themselves are part of space.

736
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 1: And so I think it takes a whole new way

737
00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:13,279
Speaker 1: of thinking about like the nature of the universe at

738
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:16,040
Speaker 1: the smallest scale. It's not like particles are sort of

739
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:19,720
Speaker 1: filling in slots in space. They're like excited space.

740
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 3: Oh and you're saying that this space is actually more

741
00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:26,799
Speaker 3: like foam, meaning that it's just a whole bunch of

742
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:30,680
Speaker 3: little pockets of it kind of pressed together, and each

743
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:33,840
Speaker 3: one of these pockets is a quantum of space time.

744
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:36,440
Speaker 1: That's right. And we don't know the size of these bubbles.

745
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:38,520
Speaker 1: If these bubbles exist, and we don't know that they do,

746
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:41,480
Speaker 1: the question is how big would they be? And we

747
00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:44,440
Speaker 1: suspect if they do exist, they'd be super duper duper

748
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:47,759
Speaker 1: duper tiny. But yeah, the idea is that you know,

749
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 1: you have a localization of energy. That energy is an

750
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:53,880
Speaker 1: excited state of all the quantum fields in that space,

751
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:57,719
Speaker 1: and that localization of energy could extend across multiple bubbles

752
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 1: of quantum space, perhaps for example, like a photon, and

753
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:02,560
Speaker 1: that you know, it could be made of these little

754
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:05,760
Speaker 1: frothing bubbles that are smaller than that packet of energy.

755
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:08,280
Speaker 3: And so what am I doing when I'm moving through space?

756
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 3: Am I moving from bubble to bubble? Or do I

757
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:15,440
Speaker 3: take like each one of my particles might be in

758
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:17,760
Speaker 3: this bowl roll bubble or that bubble.

759
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:20,680
Speaker 1: Well, you are those bubbles. You're not in those bubbles.

760
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:21,960
Speaker 1: You are those bubbles.

761
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:23,520
Speaker 3: I am the space time foam.

762
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:27,160
Speaker 1: You are the space time boam, and so we are

763
00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:29,879
Speaker 1: all one with the space time foam. Remember, you are

764
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:32,560
Speaker 1: just an excited state of the space that you are occupying.

765
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:37,240
Speaker 1: And when you move that information, then that energy then moves,

766
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:39,680
Speaker 1: you know, it excites another part of the quantum space.

767
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:42,239
Speaker 1: It's like you are the wave on the string. Right.

768
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:44,680
Speaker 1: If I'm holding a string and I wiggle it, you

769
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:46,799
Speaker 1: could say like where does that wiggle go? Well, it

770
00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:49,880
Speaker 1: moves along the string the same way you are wiggling

771
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:52,120
Speaker 1: the quantum fields where you are now, and then when

772
00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:55,720
Speaker 1: you travel somewhere for Thanksgiving, you're gonna wiggle those quantum fields.

773
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:58,000
Speaker 1: So don't think about it as you are particles in

774
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:01,200
Speaker 1: space somewhere. But you are excited wiggling of space.

775
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:06,880
Speaker 3: Oh I see, I'm just an excitation from one bubble

776
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:08,400
Speaker 3: to the next bubble precisely.

777
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 1: And the idea of space time foam is that maybe

778
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:16,360
Speaker 1: space is discretized and those little discrete blobs are popping

779
00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:18,960
Speaker 1: in and out of existence. They're like not long lasting,

780
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:20,400
Speaker 1: they're not eternal. Or permanent.

781
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:23,120
Speaker 3: They're sort of frothing, Oh, coming in and out. But

782
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 3: what if I get stuck in one that pops.

783
00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:26,000
Speaker 1: I wouldn't recommend that.

784
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:30,280
Speaker 3: Does that mean I'm no longer in existence?

785
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:32,000
Speaker 1: Then you don't have to buy a quantum fet food

786
00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:34,840
Speaker 1: for your quantum dog, because a quantum out of existence. Now,

787
00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 1: these things are at a very very small scale, so

788
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:39,759
Speaker 1: unless you're a particle on the size of quantum foam,

789
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:42,000
Speaker 1: you don't have to worry about it. But also energy

790
00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:45,240
Speaker 1: is conserved. So if space is frothing somewhere and energetic,

791
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:48,239
Speaker 1: if there's an excitation of space here, that energy is

792
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:50,800
Speaker 1: going to go somewhere, maybe into the next bubble of

793
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:53,440
Speaker 1: the next bubble. So the bubble itself might pop out

794
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 1: of existence, but the energy that is represented by that

795
00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:57,800
Speaker 1: excitation is not going to go away.

796
00:39:58,200 --> 00:39:59,960
Speaker 3: Oh, it's just going to move on to another bubble.

797
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:02,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what you do. When you move from place

798
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:05,359
Speaker 1: to place. You are exciting those fields, and now you're

799
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:07,160
Speaker 1: exciting these fields over here.

800
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:09,840
Speaker 3: All right. And so there's a theory that says that

801
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:12,880
Speaker 3: there's the universe at the very core level is like

802
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:15,880
Speaker 3: a foam. But that's just one competing theory about what

803
00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 3: it looks like down there. How are we going to

804
00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:19,840
Speaker 3: find out which one it is? How do we know

805
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:24,080
Speaker 3: if the universe is foamy or if it's not phoney?

806
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 1: Well, we need lots of money to build a huge

807
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:30,359
Speaker 1: particle collider. That's my answer to everything, right.

808
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:34,640
Speaker 3: Right, Money just solves everything for you, doesn't it.

809
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:36,239
Speaker 1: It sort of does you know. If you want to

810
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:39,960
Speaker 1: answer questions about high energy or heavy particles or tiny distances,

811
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:42,400
Speaker 1: what you need is a microscope to look at the

812
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:45,239
Speaker 1: really really small And the only thing that prevents us

813
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:48,080
Speaker 1: from looking at really really small spaces is having enough

814
00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:50,839
Speaker 1: money to build a big enough microscope. We know how

815
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:54,120
Speaker 1: to do it, it's just really expensive. So we could

816
00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:56,919
Speaker 1: probe these distances. We think the distances involved or something

817
00:40:57,000 --> 00:41:01,000
Speaker 1: like ten to the minus thirty five meter, which is

818
00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:02,360
Speaker 1: ridiculously tiny.

819
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:05,000
Speaker 3: Like if you had a microscope with not just like

820
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:08,120
Speaker 3: a ten x one hundred x, but like ten to

821
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:11,280
Speaker 3: the thirty five x, we might be able to see

822
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:13,479
Speaker 3: these foam bubbles of space and time.

823
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:15,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, we had a whole episode about how you see

824
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:19,680
Speaker 1: tiny things and microscopes and electron microscopes and particle colliders.

825
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:21,960
Speaker 1: So people should dig into that if they want more information.

826
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:24,200
Speaker 1: But basically we can see down to ten to the

827
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:27,560
Speaker 1: minus twenty right now, which is pretty impressive. We think

828
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:30,160
Speaker 1: these bubbles are ten to the minus thirty five, so

829
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:33,839
Speaker 1: fifteen orders of magnitude is actually still a lot. You know,

830
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:35,960
Speaker 1: there's a we're far away from being able to see

831
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:38,600
Speaker 1: these pixels. So that's one way is to build a

832
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:41,520
Speaker 1: really big collider. Another is to try to use like

833
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:44,200
Speaker 1: really long distances in space.

834
00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:48,359
Speaker 3: To use a space itself like a microscope.

835
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:52,120
Speaker 1: The idea is if space is bubbling and frothing, then

836
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:54,319
Speaker 1: you know it's sort of constantly changing. That means that

837
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:56,799
Speaker 1: like the distance that light has to travel from point

838
00:41:56,880 --> 00:42:00,200
Speaker 1: A to point B is not necessarily fixed. They do

839
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:02,959
Speaker 1: these crazy experiments where they look at something really really

840
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:05,200
Speaker 1: far away and they try to see it in two

841
00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:08,279
Speaker 1: different ways. They try to understand, like, you know, let's

842
00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:11,440
Speaker 1: look at two photons that left that really bright source

843
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:13,960
Speaker 1: of light maybe e Quasar, at the same moment, and

844
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:16,360
Speaker 1: see if they arrived here on Earth at the same time.

845
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:20,440
Speaker 1: If there's a difference, then maybe that's because there was

846
00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:23,279
Speaker 1: more quantum foam bubbling up for one photon then for

847
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:23,680
Speaker 1: the other.

848
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:27,920
Speaker 3: Oh, I see because it's foamy. That means to path

849
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:30,840
Speaker 3: you take through this foam instead of random, And so

850
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:35,840
Speaker 3: like one photon could have hit a really phoamy patch

851
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:39,880
Speaker 3: I guess, and gone through a little bit of extra

852
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:42,560
Speaker 3: space more than the other particle who just happened to

853
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:44,440
Speaker 3: go through a part of space that wasn't as phoamy.

854
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:47,080
Speaker 3: And so that would tell you like, oh, space is

855
00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:49,240
Speaker 3: not consistent, it's kind of frothy.

856
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:51,680
Speaker 1: That's the idea. I have to say that I'm skeptical

857
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:54,200
Speaker 1: because you know, on long distance scales, so you would

858
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:56,279
Speaker 1: think that these things would average out, like you're going

859
00:42:56,280 --> 00:43:00,000
Speaker 1: for a billion years, then the number of random times

860
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:02,000
Speaker 1: of a coin, they're going to be pretty close to

861
00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:06,040
Speaker 1: fifty to fifty. So two photons flying through incredible distances

862
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:08,120
Speaker 1: in the universe, you know we're going to have pretty

863
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:10,879
Speaker 1: even ohs to go roughly the same distance. Anyway, they

864
00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:14,440
Speaker 1: look at these photons, they don't see anything, no surprise,

865
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:17,320
Speaker 1: and so they haven't discovered quantum foam.

866
00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:19,640
Speaker 3: All right, Well, do you think we'll ever discover whether

867
00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:22,640
Speaker 3: the universe is made out of quantum foam or not?

868
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:25,560
Speaker 1: I think we will. I think it'll require some really

869
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:28,640
Speaker 1: clever mathematics to come up with like how these theories

870
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:31,600
Speaker 1: might actually work. Because remember, we don't have a functioning theory.

871
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:34,200
Speaker 1: We don't have a theory we can actually go test

872
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:37,040
Speaker 1: the theory. If we ask a questions, it gives us gibberish.

873
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:38,839
Speaker 1: And so we need to come up with a good

874
00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:41,080
Speaker 1: theory and then we need to be really clever about

875
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:43,759
Speaker 1: how to test it. And I think maybe sometime far

876
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:46,000
Speaker 1: in the future where we can get closer to black holes,

877
00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:48,440
Speaker 1: we'll be able to test some of these theories in

878
00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 1: environments with really intense gravity. But it's pretty far off

879
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:54,560
Speaker 1: in the future. So we need clever ideas and we

880
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:56,319
Speaker 1: need awesome new experiments.

881
00:43:56,480 --> 00:43:58,279
Speaker 3: Right. I guess all of that is just to say,

882
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:02,560
Speaker 3: send Daniel more money, is the entire takeaway. Who needs

883
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:05,719
Speaker 3: sponsorship from quantum dog food when you can just have

884
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:09,280
Speaker 3: a whole podcast to ask people for money?

885
00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:13,319
Speaker 1: That's right, Email me your quantum dollars to contributions at

886
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:14,960
Speaker 1: Daniel and Jorge dot com.

887
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:17,839
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, that does feel like my bank account. It'sup

888
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:19,960
Speaker 3: both there and not there.

889
00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:22,200
Speaker 1: To say it's constantly fluctuated.

890
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:26,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's phoney. I have phone money, not phony money.

891
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 3: Phony money. All right, Well, Thank you Dale from Doubling.

892
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:34,480
Speaker 3: We hope that answered your question about what quantum foam

893
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:38,200
Speaker 3: or space time foam is, and I guess the answer

894
00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:39,240
Speaker 3: is stay tuned.

895
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:41,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a really fun idea. It's fun to speculate

896
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:44,640
Speaker 1: about what the universe might be like at the smallest scales.

897
00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:47,360
Speaker 1: It's fun to take ideas from our everyday world and

898
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:50,640
Speaker 1: see if they apply at the quantum scale. But today

899
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:52,600
Speaker 1: we don't really know if quantum foam is a thing

900
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 1: or just an idea bubbling up in the mind of physicists.

901
00:44:56,239 --> 00:44:59,400
Speaker 3: So keep on looking and keep us sending us your questions.

902
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:01,920
Speaker 3: We're happy to answer them. All right. We hope you

903
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:04,520
Speaker 3: enjoyed Dad, Thank you for joining us. See you next time.

904
00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:14,480
Speaker 1: If you still have a question after listening to all

905
00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:17,719
Speaker 1: these explanations, please drop us a line. We'd love to

906
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:20,200
Speaker 1: hear from you. You can find us at Facebook, Twitter,

907
00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:23,960
Speaker 1: and Instagram at Daniel and Jorge That's one word, or

908
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:28,760
Speaker 1: email us at Feedback at Danielandhorge dot com. Thanks for listening,

909
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:31,520
Speaker 1: and remember that Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe is

910
00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:36,160
Speaker 1: a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit

911
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:40,239
Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio, app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to

912
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:51,600
Speaker 1: your favorite shows. When you pop a piece of cheese

913
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Speaker 1: into your mouth, you're probably not thinking about the environmental impact.

914
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Speaker 1: But the people in the dairy industry are. That's why

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Speaker 1: House US dairy tackling greenhouse gases. Many farms use anaerobic

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Speaker 5: There are children, friends, and families walking, riding on passing

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Speaker 5: the roads every day. Remember they're real people with loved

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