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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A nine one one call

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Speaker 1: detailing three children unconscious on the beach. Where was mommy?

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Speaker 1: A far distance away on the boardwalk. I'm Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 1: This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us

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Speaker 1: here at Fox Nation in series XM one eleven. In

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Speaker 1: case you were wondering, the three children are not unconscious,

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Speaker 1: they're dead. Take a listen to this. Earlier this morning,

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Speaker 1: at about one forty am, officers from the sixtieth Precincts

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Speaker 1: responded to an apartment at thirty three twenty five Neptune

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Speaker 1: Avenue in response to a nine one one call placed

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Speaker 1: by a concerned family member who was at a different location,

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Speaker 1: and the caller indicated that she was concerned that her

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Speaker 1: family member may have harmed her three small children. Officers

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Speaker 1: responded to that apartment. They received no answer to a

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Speaker 1: knock on, and inside the building they were met by

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Speaker 1: an individual who identified himself to be the father of

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Speaker 1: one of the children, who expressed similar concerns and said

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Speaker 1: that he believed that the woman and the children were

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Speaker 1: on the boardwalk here in Coney Island. The officers began,

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Speaker 1: along with other officers from the sixtieth precincts, a search

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Speaker 1: for the woman and her children that involved canvassing the boardwalk,

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Speaker 1: the beach, the streets of Coney Island, Coney Island Hospital,

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Speaker 1: and her own apartment at thirty three twenty five Neptune Avenue,

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Speaker 1: where the officers found the door unlocked. The door found

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Speaker 1: the door unlocked. Frantic calls regarding the three children with

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Speaker 1: me an all star pound to make sense of what

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Speaker 1: we know right now for someone to go out to.

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Speaker 1: A special guest joining us is Gabrielle van Rouge, National

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Speaker 1: correspondent investigative reporter with The New York Post. You can

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Speaker 1: find her at Gabrielle Fonrouge dot com. Gabrielle, thank you

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Speaker 1: for being with us for those people that have never been.

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Speaker 1: Could you describe the Coney Island boardwalk? Thanks for having

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Speaker 1: me on, Nancy. And you know, the Coney Island boardwalk

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Speaker 1: is what you think of when you hear the word

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Speaker 1: boardwalk and beach. You know, right nearby we have Luna Park,

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Speaker 1: we have an amusement park. You've got the boardwalk, you've

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Speaker 1: got the restaurant, you go to bars, and then of

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Speaker 1: course you're a the beach. You have you know, a

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Speaker 1: decent beach for New York City. Tons of people are

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Speaker 1: there every summer. You know, it's really just the kind

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Speaker 1: of an idyllic place has everybody saying. Tom Hanks in Big,

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Speaker 1: the movie Big, where he's a little boy and he

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Speaker 1: wishes at a vending magician on Coney Island. He wishes

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Speaker 1: on the boardwalk, he wishes to be quote Big, and

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Speaker 1: then his wish comes through that night and the movie

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Speaker 1: goes through and in the end, not to spoil it,

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Speaker 1: to go back to the Coney Island boardwalk to find

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Speaker 1: the It's about the size of a refrigerator, vending machine,

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Speaker 1: with a magician, a sorcerer, and he is trying to

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Speaker 1: become a kid again, a child again. That's the Coney

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Speaker 1: Island board walk. Yeah, if it's beautiful, it's fun. There's restaurants,

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Speaker 1: there's arcades, just slight. Gabrielle Fanrou's just told us, so

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Speaker 1: what in the h eight double l is mommy doing

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Speaker 1: on the boardwalk while her children are lying dead on

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Speaker 1: the beach. Take a listen. You were earlier hearing our

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Speaker 1: friends at the NYPD. That was Chief Kenneth Corey. Now

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Speaker 1: take a listen to more. The search continued for approximately

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Speaker 1: ninety minutes until the officers, in response to an additional

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Speaker 1: nine one one call, were directed to Brighton sixth Brighton

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Speaker 1: sixth Street and Regalman Boardwalk at that location, and the

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Speaker 1: officers found a thirty year old female believed to be

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Speaker 1: the mother of the three children. She was accompanied by

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Speaker 1: other family members, but not the children. The search now

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Speaker 1: intensified aviation units, harbor units, and additional canvases of the shoreline.

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Speaker 1: Let me go straight out to Robert Crispin, joining US

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Speaker 1: private investigator, former FED with the Federal Task Force for

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Speaker 1: US State Department of Justice. D Ea, it goes on

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Speaker 1: and on. Now he is with Crispin Special Investigations. Robert,

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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us as always. You know,

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Speaker 1: you think you've seen it all, right, That's what I

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Speaker 1: always say. Well, I've seen it all. I've seen it all,

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Speaker 1: and then another case comes along and we realize it sadly,

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Speaker 1: we have not seen it all. Three dead children, three

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Speaker 1: dead children, one of them seven, that's Zachary, father in

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Speaker 1: the me, Liliana four and Oliver three months different. Father, Crispin.

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Speaker 1: Three dead children. You ever seen that before? While I've

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Speaker 1: seen two, Nancy, I saw one. I saw one go

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Speaker 1: into the water, and the little the little brother try

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Speaker 1: to go in after and savor and they both round.

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Speaker 1: Let me rephrase my question, as I like to say

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Speaker 1: in court when the witness does not respond the way

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Speaker 1: I want them to. Have you ever seen a triple

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Speaker 1: child homicide? I don't mean a natural disaster or an

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Speaker 1: accidental drowning. Three children murdered, three children murdered, and where

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Speaker 1: is mommy walking the boardwalk with the restaurants and the

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Speaker 1: vending machines and the games. Cops immediately race to the

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Speaker 1: home and they find the door open. And let me

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Speaker 1: understand this. Gabriel fan Ru's jorder moved from the New

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Speaker 1: York Post. The father, I guess it's the father of Oliver,

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Speaker 1: possibly little Ona as well. He's just kind of wandering around.

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Speaker 1: He goes, yeah, I'm really worried about them. Do I

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Speaker 1: have that right? Yeah, that's about right. You know. The

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Speaker 1: cops showed up, They went to the apartment door, nobody answered,

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Speaker 1: the door was unlocked, and I guess they ran into

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Speaker 1: the father, and we believe it's the father of Oliver.

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Speaker 1: I guess somewhere else in the building. What he was

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Speaker 1: doing is unclear, but he expressed similar concerns, and he

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Speaker 1: told police, I think they're on Coney Island Beach. So

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Speaker 1: he's worried. What's he doing wandering in the house. I mean,

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Speaker 1: if I'm worried about my can I tell you what

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Speaker 1: happened the other day, Gabrielle? The other day? Of course,

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Speaker 1: I have every entrapment possible on my children's minds and computers,

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Speaker 1: blah blah. And I got an alarm from Bart that

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Speaker 1: John David, my beloved only son. The F word popped up,

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Speaker 1: and I went, honey, I got in that car. I

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Speaker 1: draw what I was doing, and got in the car

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Speaker 1: and went to his school and pulled him out of class.

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Speaker 1: I took him outside. So the reception, he was very

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Speaker 1: prim and proper, could not hear me, dropped the F word,

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Speaker 1: and I said, John David Lynch, did you write the

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Speaker 1: F word anyway? No? His little face got totally white.

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Speaker 1: Of course, he's six five of what I'm talking about.

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Speaker 1: And I said, look at this, and I looked through

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Speaker 1: it and somebody had sent him a rap song and

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Speaker 1: the rapper said the F word. I'm like, okay, never mind.

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Speaker 1: I was really just coming by to say hi, okay,

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Speaker 1: come bye. Bye bye. So he had not done that,

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Speaker 1: but I was worried. So I got in the car

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Speaker 1: that minute. I did not delay and went over there.

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Speaker 1: You know, So he's worried about the children's safety, not

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Speaker 1: about a tween dropping the F bomb. He's worried about

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Speaker 1: their safety, and he's just held back in the house.

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Speaker 1: That's what we know. You're sure, yes, that's exactly what

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Speaker 1: police told us. I mean, he was encountered him in

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Speaker 1: the building. He expressed similar concerns as the other relatives

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Speaker 1: who had called in earlier that morning, saying, you know,

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Speaker 1: we have concerns that she may have harmed the children.

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Speaker 1: He had those exact same concerns and told police that

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Speaker 1: they're probably on the beach. Why he was walking around

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Speaker 1: the building what he was doing is unclear. Okay, the children,

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Speaker 1: my twins, they're not children anymore, Gabrielle Fanraige. Lucy's five three.

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Speaker 1: She's taller than me. I just found out the other day.

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Speaker 1: I'm not six three, he's six five. I still made

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Speaker 1: them wear a little life jackets when we went out

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Speaker 1: on the water, barely fit John David. My point is

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Speaker 1: the father knows they're at the beach. He's quote worried

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Speaker 1: about them, but he's kicked back in the house with

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Speaker 1: the door wide open. Okay, you know, let me just

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Speaker 1: move on. But Gabrielle found raised joining us in the

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Speaker 1: New York Post who called nine one one to start with,

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Speaker 1: do we know we believe it was a sister. It

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Speaker 1: was definitely one of her relatives, and then also another relatives.

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Speaker 1: There was multiple nine one one calls from multiple relatives

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Speaker 1: throughout that morning and where were they? Were they all

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Speaker 1: at the beach or were they somewhere else? Some of

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Speaker 1: them were at different locations, and one of the relatives

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Speaker 1: eventually found. Multiple relatives eventually found her on the beach

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Speaker 1: and were there when cops arrived. So where they were

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Speaker 1: when this all started is still part of that investigation.

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Speaker 1: But they had called from different locations and some of

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Speaker 1: them eventually wound up with her on the beach. Guys,

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Speaker 1: take a listen to our friend Tracy Strayhan at NBC four.

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Speaker 1: The kids were found unconscious near the water's edge by

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Speaker 1: thirty fifth Street, and despite life saving efforts, were pronounced

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Speaker 1: dead at Coney Island Hospital. Tragic news to the neighbors

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Speaker 1: now grieving their loss. Not only people in the building

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Speaker 1: everybody and Coney Islands talking abodied. You know when it

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Speaker 1: involved kids, you know that's close to home. There is

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Speaker 1: at least one or more officers right along the shoreline

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Speaker 1: where those children were discovered. And we're also hearing reports

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Speaker 1: that the children's mother is undergoing a psychological evaluation at

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Speaker 1: a local hospital. No charges have been filed yet in

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Speaker 1: this case. Okay, so mommy, instead of being a race

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Speaker 1: to the police precinct, is sent for psychological evaluation. And

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Speaker 1: I'm very curious why is that whenever a mother murders

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Speaker 1: her children that she's sent for a mental exam. I

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Speaker 1: want you to take a listen to our cut thirteen.

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Speaker 1: This is Brandon Todd Fox four, Dallas Fort Worth. And

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Speaker 1: you may be wondering why am I hearing from a

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Speaker 1: reporter in Dallas Fort Worth, same exact scenario. Listen to this.

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Speaker 1: The fame pianist arrived home Thursday morning to find his

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Speaker 1: five year old and one and a half year old

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Speaker 1: daughters dead. Is a strange wife stabbed inside their Benbrooke home.

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Speaker 1: Sofia Sikankova is recovering from stab wounds. Hollandenko arrived to

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Speaker 1: pick up the kids and found her. According to police

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Speaker 1: in an extreme state of distress, then went back to

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Speaker 1: a bedroom and found the bodies of both girls. He

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Speaker 1: is not considered a suspect at this time. One of

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Speaker 1: the responding officers immediately recommended that the wife undergo a

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Speaker 1: mental evaluation when asked if her wounds were self inflicted,

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Speaker 1: the stab wounds were made with a knife. But that's

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Speaker 1: about as far as I can go with him. Time

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Speaker 1: stories with Nancy Grace. Let go to John W. Deal

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Speaker 1: to bring him in. He's a high profile lawyer joining

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Speaker 1: out of Winter Park, Florida, author of the method Proven

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Speaker 1: Techniques for Winning jury trials? Is it John wdal dot com.

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Speaker 1: He is representing Zenia Gonzales. You'll remember that name. She

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Speaker 1: was commonly known as Zanni. Then nanny that's who taught

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Speaker 1: mom Casey Anthony blamed for her missing child, Kelly whom

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Speaker 1: taught mom killed. She blamed a person she's never met

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Speaker 1: and claimed Zanni the nanny took the baby as a babysitter.

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Speaker 1: Deal took on that case, John Deal, Thank you for

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Speaker 1: being with us. Is it unusual how the mom murders

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Speaker 1: the children and then she has a superficial knife wound

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Speaker 1: and she gets mental evaluation while they get embalmed at

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Speaker 1: the funeral home. Yeah, I mean, you've seen this a lot.

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Speaker 1: In fact, I was thinking of it going way back

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Speaker 1: to the Andrey Yeah, where the woman had drowned her

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Speaker 1: children and then presented it in Sanny the un the fans.

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Speaker 1: I think she was convicted but then retry and you know,

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Speaker 1: found not guilty, very reasoned insanity. It seems sort of

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Speaker 1: disproportionate as far as the evaluations. But if I was

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Speaker 1: defending the case, I obviously would want to be raising that,

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Speaker 1: and I'm sure the police want to rule out that

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Speaker 1: potential defense is why they're going in and getting her

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Speaker 1: evaluated right away. Yeah. You know, Andrew Yates has a

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Speaker 1: whole nother ken of worms who very carefully plotted out

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Speaker 1: the killing of her children. Waited for her husband to

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Speaker 1: leave to go to work, a lot to all the doors,

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Speaker 1: and then took one child at a time, I believe,

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Speaker 1: starting with the baby, because the oldest child would understand

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Speaker 1: what was going I can't remember her order of how

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Speaker 1: she killed them, but there was a reason. Then she

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Speaker 1: dried them off and laid them on the bed called

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Speaker 1: lineman when I killed my children. Yeah, so that's a

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Speaker 1: stark dichotomy, John Deal, because every time a mom murders

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Speaker 1: her children, we just not me, but others naturally the same.

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Speaker 1: She must be crazy? Correct? Correct? I do not agree

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Speaker 1: with that, And in this case, isn't it true? Gabrielle

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Speaker 1: van Rouge joining us a New York Post that she

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Speaker 1: actually called the mom in this case, actually called her

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Speaker 1: family and indicated she intended to harm the children. Beforehand,

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Speaker 1: she had made comments to family that left them concerned

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Speaker 1: that she would harm the children. What her exact statements

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Speaker 1: were and if she expressed that intent, I still think

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Speaker 1: it's part of that investigation. But as soon as you

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Speaker 1: know the deed had been done, she did it. Consess

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Speaker 1: to relatives, I drowned all three kids. That's what we

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Speaker 1: have from our law enforce and sources at the NYPD.

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Speaker 1: You know, to you doctor Angela Arnold, psychiatrist, well known

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Speaker 1: psychiatrists joining us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, She said,

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Speaker 1: Angela Arnold MD dot com. One of her expertise is

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Speaker 1: postponed depression. You know, doctor Angie, I understand about depression.

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Speaker 1: I don't understand as much as you do, of course,

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Speaker 1: but that is not insanity. Depression is not insanity under

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Speaker 1: the law. Insanity under the law, which is based on

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Speaker 1: the quote old McNaughton rule, which is common law, which

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Speaker 1: is case law not codified, such as a statute that

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Speaker 1: we brought over from England with us. Okay, the Anglo

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Speaker 1: Saxon jurisprudence on which our legal system is founded. The

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Speaker 1: old McNaughton rule, also known as the insanity defense, is

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Speaker 1: that you do not know right from wrong at the

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Speaker 1: time of the incident. I don't see how depression makes

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Speaker 1: you unaware of what is happening when you drown your children,

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Speaker 1: your three children, and when they find her hold on.

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Speaker 1: Isn't it true, Gabrielle van Rouge, that she was wet,

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Speaker 1: her clothes and body were wet, the children were soaking wet,

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Speaker 1: they were drowned. Isn't that true? She was found when

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Speaker 1: she was found by police, she was soaking wet, their

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Speaker 1: foot in a bathrobe, and the children were found along

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Speaker 1: the shoreline. So, dodger Angie, are you arguing to me

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Speaker 1: that depression makes you what blackout and you don't know

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Speaker 1: what you're doing? Now? I will say, Nancy, there are

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Speaker 1: time you can actually become psychotic. If your depression is

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Speaker 1: bad enough, you can become psychotic, whether or not we

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Speaker 1: call this crazy. I didn't ask you that I know

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Speaker 1: you're an MD. I'm just a JD. I'm not asking you,

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Speaker 1: doctor Angela Arnold, to interpret the law. I'm asking you.

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Speaker 1: Are you telling me that you can be so depressed

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Speaker 1: you don't know you're murdering someone? Your depression can get

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Speaker 1: so bad that, yes, you can become psychotic and out

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Speaker 1: of your mind and and not no reality from non reality. Yes,

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Speaker 1: I don't really know what you just said in the

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Speaker 1: sense that I don't know that that was responsive to

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Speaker 1: my question. So, Dancy, what I'm saying is, don't tell

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Speaker 1: a bunch of psycho babble at me. Okay, just please,

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Speaker 1: if you could just answer yes, No, are you telling

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Speaker 1: me you can be so depressed you have no idea

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Speaker 1: what you're doing? Yes? What do you make of the

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Speaker 1: fact she told her family beforehand she was going to

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Speaker 1: hurt the children, she drowned them dead, and then she

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Speaker 1: told her family I drowned the kids, So she wasn't

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Speaker 1: out of her mind when she did it. She knew

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Speaker 1: what she was doing. That's what I make of that.

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Speaker 1: Did you just say she knew what she was doing. Yes, okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm surprised you would admit to that, because otherwise you

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Speaker 1: would be stuck in the position I was just waiting.

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Speaker 1: I was spinning my web, waiting for you to fly

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Speaker 1: into it. You would be in a position of arguing

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Speaker 1: temporary insanity, which nobody really believes, because I know that

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Speaker 1: temporary any means I'm perfectly sane at this moment, at

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Speaker 1: this exact moment. And then I see this ballpoint pen,

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Speaker 1: I go crazy and leap over all the equipment in

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Speaker 1: the studio and stab Jackie in the net and she dies,

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Speaker 1: and then I jumped back in my seat and continue

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Speaker 1: with the program. I guess I would have to argue

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Speaker 1: in that ten minute exchange that it took me ten

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Speaker 1: minutes to stab her dead with this pen. I was insane,

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Speaker 1: and then suddenly I came back to myself. I was

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Speaker 1: no longer insane, because let me get this right, Gabrielle Finers,

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Speaker 1: just go with me on this. She's sane enough to

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Speaker 1: boo boo boo boo boo boo boo, Hi, I'm going

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Speaker 1: to hurt the children, kills the children, and then says

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Speaker 1: I killed my children. She goes to a phone calls home, calls,

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Speaker 1: somebody says she's going to hurt the children. She murders

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Speaker 1: the children, and then she is back to herself again

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Speaker 1: and says, I just killed the children. You know. The

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Speaker 1: exact comments that she made to family are unclear, you know,

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Speaker 1: but they were left with the impression that she would

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Speaker 1: harm them. Whether or not she actually said I had

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Speaker 1: plans to harm them is still part of the investigation.

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Speaker 1: I have not heard anything about her specific remarks. But

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Speaker 1: they were left concerned, that's for sure. Whatever she said

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Speaker 1: or however she appeared, they were worried that she was

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Speaker 1: going to hurt them. But afterwards she absolutely confessed. That

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Speaker 1: is a subtle but important distinction, and I'm glad you

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Speaker 1: made it, because for all we know, we don't know

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Speaker 1: her exact wording. We know later she said I kill

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Speaker 1: the children, two words to that effect, but before she

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Speaker 1: may have says something like I can't take these children anymore.

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Speaker 1: They gotta go. Something like that, not the specific words

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Speaker 1: I'm going to kill the children, but enough to make

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Speaker 1: the family concerned she was going to harm them. What

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Speaker 1: really amazes me, as in everybody just did nothing, nothing,

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Speaker 1: and now the children are dead. I want you to

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Speaker 1: take a listen to our cut eight This is Our

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Speaker 1: Friend at NBC. Four NYPD officers stood alone the Coney

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Speaker 1: Island shoreline at sunrise, the place where three young children

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Speaker 1: were found unresponsive and later pronounced dead. The person being

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Speaker 1: questioned about the crime their mother, who was found shoeless

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Speaker 1: and roaming the boardwalk about two miles away. The way

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Speaker 1: it happens sad. It's really sad because she could have

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Speaker 1: got help, you know, maybe she was in too strong

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Speaker 1: to get the help. About four forty two this morning,

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Speaker 1: the officers discovered three children, a seventy year old male,

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Speaker 1: a four year old female, and another female was approximately

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Speaker 1: three and a half months old on the shoreline here

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Speaker 1: at the water's edge at West thirty fifth Street in

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Speaker 1: Coney Island. The officers immediately initiated life saving measures, including

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Speaker 1: CPR on the children, and they were rushed to Coney

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Speaker 1: Island Hospital, where they were regrettably pronounced de ceased. Just

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Speaker 1: thinking about one of the old children, in particular, Zachary,

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Speaker 1: at age seven, His football coach had begged the mom

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Speaker 1: for Zachary to come back to football, and she wouldn't

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Speaker 1: let him, and he could go to football practice after

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Speaker 1: school it was either three or four days a week,

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Speaker 1: and then they would get him supper. I guess they

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Speaker 1: all had supper there at football practice something like that,

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Speaker 1: and he loved it so much, but the mom said no,

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Speaker 1: he could no longer play football or have dinner with

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Speaker 1: the team. And they just the little team got together

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Speaker 1: when they found out about Zachary's mother killing him and

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Speaker 1: released balloons into the air and all screened up to

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Speaker 1: the clouds by Zachary, we miss you. I'm just thinking,

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Speaker 1: you know my children at that age seven, which is

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Speaker 1: so precious and wonderful, much less you know the other

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Speaker 1: two children you have, Oliver just three months old, Liliana

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Speaker 1: four being killed, murdered by the one person that is

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Speaker 1: supposed to protect you, but of course not in this case.

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Speaker 1: Mommy was two miles away on the boardwalk when their

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Speaker 1: bodies were found. I want to go straight out to

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Speaker 1: Katherine Maloney. Doctor Katherine Maloney, Deputy Chief Medical Examiner, Erie County,

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Speaker 1: That's Buffalo. You can find her at Nicols City Forensics

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Speaker 1: dot com. Doctor Maloney, thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 1: One thing I've always hated is the thought, I mean,

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Speaker 1: we're all gonna die. There's really not usedn't even thinking

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Speaker 1: about it. It's going to happen. But a lot of

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Speaker 1: people say the one way I wouldn't want to die

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Speaker 1: is and for me, it's drowning. I'm just trying to

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Speaker 1: imagine what these children went through. I mean, they very

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Speaker 1: likely put up a struggle with their own mom. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if they realized what was going on. I

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Speaker 1: mean and Andrea Yates, she had a tiny little baby

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Speaker 1: infant I think was named Mary, who even as a

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Speaker 1: tiny baby, put up a struggle and you could see

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Speaker 1: bruises all over her body where Andrea Yates held her

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Speaker 1: down forcibly in the water to drown her. What actually

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Speaker 1: happens to a human body when they are drowned, I mean,

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Speaker 1: they know what's happening. Well, thank you for having me, Nancy.

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Speaker 1: With the drowning. Generally, what will happen is that water

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Speaker 1: will fill the airway, preventing air from getting into the

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Speaker 1: person can't breathe, and then when they can't breathe, eventually

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Speaker 1: the oxygen in their blood will be depleted and then

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Speaker 1: their brain will suffer irreversible damage. It's a relatively even

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Speaker 1: warm water, it's a relatively longer process. It would probably

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Speaker 1: take several minutes while the person is still conscious, kind

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Speaker 1: of like with a choking so that the death would

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Speaker 1: be relatively prolonged. Just thinking about it not being anything

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Speaker 1: like getting shot, where you bam, the moment the bullet

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Speaker 1: hits you, it's over, and I don't know what you

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Speaker 1: really even feel if you're like prest a shot in

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Speaker 1: the head, or you're hung the moment, well, not really hung.

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Speaker 1: Let's go with a bullet. But in a drowning case,

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Speaker 1: they knew what was happening to them. They very likely struggled,

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Speaker 1: and they knew it was Mommy. Would you agree with that, Catherine.

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Speaker 1: I think they definitely would have been aware of what

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Speaker 1: was going on. I'm sure it must have been very

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Speaker 1: confusing in a case like that. What kind of CPR

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Speaker 1: would have been administered? So the CPR on the beach,

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Speaker 1: the idea is that you just want to get the

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Speaker 1: heart pumping again and then try to get the water

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Speaker 1: out of the airway. So that's I'm sure what officers

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Speaker 1: were doing at the scene as they called nine on

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Speaker 1: one to get an ambulance to respond all the talk.

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Speaker 1: Gabrielle fanroge A regarding Mommy possibly being depressed isn't it

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Speaker 1: true when police arrived they thought she was drunk. Yes,

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Speaker 1: that's true. And also relatives when they originally called nine

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Speaker 1: on one, they were they were concerned that she might

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Speaker 1: be under the influence of alcohol or drugs. And when

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Speaker 1: Copps founder, she did appear to be intoxicated, and she

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Speaker 1: was certainly in a daze. She wasn't communicating, she was

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Speaker 1: kind of just kind of out out to launch really

403
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Speaker 1: for lunch, for a better way. What are you going

404
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:54,800
Speaker 1: to do with that attorney, high profile lawyer John W.

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Speaker 1: Deal joining us out of Winter Park. Let's say she's

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Speaker 1: your client. You're going to go with d deep depression,

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Speaker 1: and suddenly you find out the cop says she's reeked

408
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:08,040
Speaker 1: of alcohol. Yeah, that's that's gonna be a major problem.

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Speaker 1: I think probably I would try to develop like a

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Speaker 1: schizophrenia type of situation, only because the family had said

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Speaker 1: that she had gone off the grid and then acting radically,

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Speaker 1: well what wait, wait, wait wait, because I learned something

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Speaker 1: completely different going off the grid. Yes, she dumped all

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Speaker 1: her social media, she wouldn't take a lot of her

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Speaker 1: relatives calls, but acting erratically. One relatives said, yeah, she

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Speaker 1: liked a party. I knew she liked to, you know,

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Speaker 1: drink a quote a little bit and be with different guys.

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Speaker 1: But I never thought she was crazy. I never thought

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Speaker 1: she'd murder her children. Is that what you mean by

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00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:51,520
Speaker 1: acting erratically? That's what I would present obviously, that this

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00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:54,920
Speaker 1: would all be whatever mental disease or is. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you got to play the cards as you find them.

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Speaker 1: But it's the voluntary intoxication is probably ablematic, Yeah, because

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Speaker 1: that's not a defense. Absolutely not. No, everybody in the

425
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:07,640
Speaker 1: Fulton County Courthouse would be dancing down Main Street right

426
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:11,159
Speaker 1: now because it all say I was drunk, I was drowned.

427
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:14,240
Speaker 1: Let me out of here. You have to prove that

428
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:17,960
Speaker 1: it's the mental disease or defect that you have makes

429
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 1: it so you can appreciate right and wrong. But if

430
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 1: somebody is drinking and that's why they say they can't

431
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:25,960
Speaker 1: appreciate what was going on, that is not a defense.

432
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:28,720
Speaker 1: So it's going to be a difficult challenge for a

433
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 1: defense attorney to try to reconcile the voluntary intoxication with

434
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:36,480
Speaker 1: whatever insanity defense they try to put together. I mean,

435
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 1: you know what about that, doctor Angie Arnold, Because your

436
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:46,880
Speaker 1: claim is psychosis stemming from postpartum depression. And I could

437
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,760
Speaker 1: see postpartum depression because the oliver is just three months old.

438
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 1: But when cops say your days and they think you're drunk,

439
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:58,359
Speaker 1: there's a big difference in being days from depression or

440
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:01,679
Speaker 1: psychotic break and being run. That's right. And you know

441
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:05,040
Speaker 1: what that's called, Nancy, That's called medicating yourself. She was

442
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:07,879
Speaker 1: self medicating with the alcohol. I can promise you I

443
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:09,879
Speaker 1: don't know that that's what I would call it. Guys,

444
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:13,240
Speaker 1: take a listen to our friend Elijah Westbrook at CBS.

445
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:16,320
Speaker 1: Two authorities say when she was found her clothes were

446
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:19,479
Speaker 1: soaked and she was barefoot. Her statements to police eventually

447
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:21,800
Speaker 1: led them to believe she had something to do with

448
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:24,359
Speaker 1: the drowning. More than an hour later, the kids were

449
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:27,440
Speaker 1: found just off A thirty fifth Street in the water, unconscious.

450
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:30,160
Speaker 1: The kids were rushed to Coney Island Hospital, where they

451
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 1: could not be saved. We did go ahead and ask

452
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:35,119
Speaker 1: police if there was any sort of history between the

453
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 1: family and Child Protective Services, and as we speak, that

454
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:42,360
Speaker 1: is being looked into. For now charges or pending against

455
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:45,560
Speaker 1: the mother. To Robert Crispin, private, an investigator with Christmas

456
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 1: Special investiations. Barefoot, bathrobe wet sounds like she kicked her

457
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 1: shoes off to go in the water kill her three children,

458
00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:58,680
Speaker 1: came out and put on a bathrobe. It does, and

459
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 1: let me tell you it. You know, we're talking all

460
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 1: those legal mumble jumbo. Let's talk about the actual homicide

461
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:07,760
Speaker 1: of three kids and her being mentally evaluated. And I

462
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 1: think what they mean by the mentally evaluated they took

463
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 1: her down. You know, that location is just littered with

464
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:18,880
Speaker 1: video cameras, and you know, they may already have a

465
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:21,840
Speaker 1: very good handle on what happened, and this whole thing

466
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 1: may be caught on tape, which I'm sure probably is,

467
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:29,680
Speaker 1: and I think they probably what they did in Layman's

468
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 1: turn is data Marchment actor or the banker actor, and

469
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:35,560
Speaker 1: I think that's where they're saying they did their mental evaluation.

470
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 1: And I'm thinking that they got the confession or they

471
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 1: got the spontaneous utterance. I mean, I don't know to

472
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 1: the family member. Maybe she spontaneously uttered something to law

473
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 1: enforcement we don't know about. But my take is they

474
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 1: either saw the totality of what she did, it's caught

475
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:56,600
Speaker 1: on tape, and they Marchment actor because of either the

476
00:29:56,600 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 1: alcohol or the drugs clearly a danger to herself, her others,

477
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:03,040
Speaker 1: or they baker acted her. And I think you're going

478
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 1: to find out as time goes on. This is what's

479
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 1: going to unfold. And the worst part about all this

480
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 1: is this goes back to see something, say something so

481
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 1: many times. So many of these tragedies can be avoided

482
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:16,960
Speaker 1: because when you go out and you interview these witnesses,

483
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 1: they tell you things that they knew, they heard the statements,

484
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 1: but they did nothing. You know why, because people just

485
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:26,040
Speaker 1: don't want to get involved anymore. They just don't. And

486
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 1: it's sad. It's sad. And let me tell you, do

487
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:32,120
Speaker 1: you think that these kids knew what was going on? Absolutely?

488
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 1: The last breath was taken out of them with the

489
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:39,000
Speaker 1: most horrific view of their mother as she plunged them

490
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 1: into the water and killed them. If that's what she did, horrific,

491
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 1: I will say I would like to jump in and

492
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 1: say something. I don't think that we can totally blame

493
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:52,960
Speaker 1: other people for not saying something and doing something. As

494
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 1: it said, As it said in one of the pieces

495
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 1: about her, she had totally gone off the grid and

496
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 1: wasn't really communicating with her family and I will tell y'all.

497
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 1: Oftentimes that is what people will do when they are

498
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 1: you know what. They don't want to talk you about

499
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 1: it anymore, They don't want to get any help, they

500
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:12,840
Speaker 1: don't want to take any medicine. And it is so

501
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:16,680
Speaker 1: hard to go out to disagree with that, Nancy completely.

502
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:20,640
Speaker 1: You know what, I wouldn't disagree with me because I

503
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:23,120
Speaker 1: know what I'm talking about, because I deal with this

504
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:26,480
Speaker 1: every day. Okay, well, okay, I've also worked in thomicide.

505
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 1: Is this deal or is this crispin crispin? Okay, hold

506
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 1: on a second, So, doctor Angie Arnold, you say you

507
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:34,880
Speaker 1: deal with this every day. So when was the last

508
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 1: time you prosecuted a tip of homicide? I'm really interested. Well,

509
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:41,120
Speaker 1: here's the thing there. Do you want to know when

510
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 1: the last time was I had to talk to a

511
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 1: police officer because they were we were trying to get

512
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:48,320
Speaker 1: somebody ten thirteen or Baker acted as he called it.

513
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 1: I want to know the last time a tip a

514
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 1: week ago you went to the court and prosecuted. But okay,

515
00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:01,040
Speaker 1: so when you say I've handled this, no, actually you haven't.

516
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 1: You have haddled cases where there is a legitimate mental

517
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 1: illness that is your expertise. And this woman may be

518
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:15,320
Speaker 1: mentally ill. And if so, okay, you know what, try

519
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 1: to call the police on somebody. Get on. I'm still

520
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 1: hearing it. Okay, thank you your expertise, doctor Angela Arnold.

521
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 1: And yes, I know you are a renowned psychiatrist. You

522
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:30,400
Speaker 1: know more about the human psyche than I could ever know.

523
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 1: You know more in one digit about it than I know.

524
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:40,040
Speaker 1: I do, however, know about child homicide. If this woman

525
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:44,520
Speaker 1: is metally ill, that I want her in a hospital

526
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:49,040
Speaker 1: where she can be treated. If she was drunk and

527
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:52,480
Speaker 1: tired of raising her children, I want her to go

528
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:54,960
Speaker 1: to jail the rest of her life at the very

529
00:32:55,160 --> 00:33:00,720
Speaker 1: least what I am concerned. Also Robert Crispin, Doctor Angela

530
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:05,360
Speaker 1: Arnold also said that you can't totally blame the people

531
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:09,720
Speaker 1: around her. I also agree with that. However, what about

532
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:14,320
Speaker 1: the people that lived with her, the people that feared

533
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:17,880
Speaker 1: for the children taking Listen to our cut one. This

534
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:22,360
Speaker 1: is Tracy Strayhan NBC four. Police say a worried family

535
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:25,719
Speaker 1: member called nine one one just after one thirty this morning,

536
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 1: fearful that the thirty year old mother could have harmed

537
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 1: the kids. A seven year old boy, four year old

538
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 1: girl and a boy just over three months old. But

539
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 1: when officers arrived at the Sea Rios houses on Neptune Avenue,

540
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:41,440
Speaker 1: no one answered the door and it was unlocked. A

541
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:43,720
Speaker 1: man who claimed to be the father of one of

542
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 1: the children later surfaced. They were met by an individual

543
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:49,320
Speaker 1: who identified himself to be the father of one of

544
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:52,800
Speaker 1: the children, who expressed similar concerns and said that he

545
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:55,360
Speaker 1: believed that the woman and the children were on the

546
00:33:55,400 --> 00:34:12,680
Speaker 1: boardwalk here in Coney Islands Time Stories with Nancy Grace.

547
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:20,320
Speaker 1: So they've got the sister worried about the children's welfare,

548
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 1: You've got the father of the children worried about their welfare.

549
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 1: Take a listen to our cut twenty five. This is

550
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:29,839
Speaker 1: Kevin ricon CBS two. Folks here in this community, they're

551
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:32,520
Speaker 1: devastated to hear about what happened. I spoke with a

552
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:35,319
Speaker 1: number of neighbors who knew these kids and who knew

553
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 1: their mother. They say, by all accounts, it felt like

554
00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:40,480
Speaker 1: she was trying her best, which is why it's all

555
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 1: the more shocking to know that those kids are gone.

556
00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:46,600
Speaker 1: Early Monday morning, police embarked on the ninety minute long

557
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:50,040
Speaker 1: frantic search for three kids along the shoreline. They got

558
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:52,680
Speaker 1: a call from a concerned relative who believed the children

559
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:55,759
Speaker 1: were in danger. Cops found the mother, thirty year old

560
00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 1: Aaron Murdy, barefoot and soaking way. Her kids were eventually

561
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:02,839
Speaker 1: discovered for two miles away on the beach at West

562
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:05,960
Speaker 1: thirty fifth Street in Coney Island. Many neighbors told me

563
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:09,160
Speaker 1: there were warning signs. This man says the kids were

564
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:11,359
Speaker 1: left with family for a bit and wonders why they

565
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:15,000
Speaker 1: came back. Now I can see you just snap because

566
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:17,759
Speaker 1: we all have problems. Police tell us that the mother

567
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:21,080
Speaker 1: called family to say she intended to hurt the kids

568
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:24,480
Speaker 1: and didn't say why. Okay, let me clear something up.

569
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:31,960
Speaker 1: Can we unmute? Doctor Angela Arnold? And I want to

570
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:35,239
Speaker 1: bring in John Deal on this, the lawyer, John Deal.

571
00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:38,759
Speaker 1: There's no such thing as snap. That's true under the law.

572
00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:42,600
Speaker 1: That's not real. Now. I know there was a program

573
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:47,800
Speaker 1: called Snap, and they always featured women that would kill somebody,

574
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 1: and they quote, just snap. That's not a defense under

575
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:53,839
Speaker 1: the law. No, No, it's not. I mean getting set up,

576
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:56,919
Speaker 1: having a hard time, getting frustrated, not able to think

577
00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:00,600
Speaker 1: ends me. That's absolutely not a mentalism for deep. You'd

578
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:03,879
Speaker 1: have to show that there was some mental issue going

579
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 1: on that made it so she couldn't appreciate what she

580
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:07,719
Speaker 1: was doing. And I think that's really going to be

581
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 1: the whole question in the case. I want you to

582
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:12,440
Speaker 1: take a listener, cut twenty one, and I want to

583
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:15,440
Speaker 1: hear from doctor Angie Arnold on this This is Ed

584
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:19,239
Speaker 1: Browley sixty minutes. It was the most horrifying story of

585
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:22,520
Speaker 1: the year. Five children from a middle class family in Houston,

586
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:26,600
Speaker 1: Texas murdered drowned one after the other in the bathtub

587
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:30,120
Speaker 1: of their home. The oldest was seven, the youngest six months.

588
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:34,560
Speaker 1: The confessed killer was their mother, Andrea Yates. Or cases

589
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:38,040
Speaker 1: evoked both rage and sympathy across the country. Why did

590
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:41,080
Speaker 1: she do it? No one disputes that she suffered from

591
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 1: bouts of postpartum depression with psychosis, a serious mental illness

592
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:49,760
Speaker 1: brought on by childbirth and the demands of parenting. Doctor

593
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:53,839
Speaker 1: Angie Arnold, how would or would you differentiate this case

594
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:57,960
Speaker 1: from that case. I know a lot about the Andrea

595
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:01,319
Speaker 1: Yates case, and I don't know much, but I don't

596
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:03,879
Speaker 1: know anything about the background of the woman who just

597
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 1: recently drowned her three children. What do you make of

598
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:10,320
Speaker 1: the claim in Yates that she was suffering about supposed

599
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,759
Speaker 1: part of depression. That's true, and I will also let

600
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:18,240
Speaker 1: you know that she was not being treated properly at all.

601
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:22,480
Speaker 1: I remember the husband got really mad when I asked,

602
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:26,320
Speaker 1: why did you move the whole family into a converted

603
00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:30,879
Speaker 1: school bus? Because she was trying to raise all these

604
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:35,520
Speaker 1: children living in a bus. That's not all You've got

605
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:40,239
Speaker 1: that case where I believe that Yates did have a

606
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:46,320
Speaker 1: mental defect. But then you have the case of Julie Schinneker.

607
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:49,319
Speaker 1: Take a list an hour cut twenty two. This is

608
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:52,600
Speaker 1: how she looked hours after being arrested for shooting her

609
00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 1: own children to death, both thirteen year old Bow and

610
00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:59,719
Speaker 1: sixteen year old Calyx. We're star athletes and star students,

611
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:02,280
Speaker 1: and we now know. It was just a few months

612
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:05,879
Speaker 1: ago when Calix filed a police report saying her mother

613
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 1: slapped and hit her in the face and even busted

614
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 1: her lip, but that case was later closed, even though

615
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:15,440
Speaker 1: reports show Shenneker admitted to hitting her daughter because she

616
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:19,080
Speaker 1: talked back. It's the same reason she told police she

617
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:22,560
Speaker 1: wanted her children dead, a reason many find as sick

618
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:27,400
Speaker 1: as their murders. In that case, police discovered a detailed

619
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:32,160
Speaker 1: plan to murder the children in riding, purchasing a gun

620
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:36,240
Speaker 1: far in advance, using that gun the day of the murderers.

621
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 1: Police also found her drinking, as in this case, we

622
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:46,719
Speaker 1: believe the mom had been drinking. Anna Scheneker sitting out

623
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:52,240
Speaker 1: by the water in a bathrobe to Gabrielle fawn Roue's

624
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:57,880
Speaker 1: national correspondent, investigative reporter with the New York Post, what

625
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:01,600
Speaker 1: happens now? So, you know, a couple of things. One,

626
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:07,000
Speaker 1: the NYPD has uncovered surveillance footage that shows her entering

627
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:09,720
Speaker 1: the beach area with her three children and then leaving

628
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:13,200
Speaker 1: without them. So we've got that going on. And you know,

629
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 1: with this psych evaluation that she underwent. You know, in

630
00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 1: New York, we don't have the Baker Act, we don't

631
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:19,560
Speaker 1: have the March for An Act, we don't have anything

632
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:23,359
Speaker 1: like that. And this wasn't a court ordered psychiatric evaluation.

633
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:26,080
Speaker 1: If you're in a state like New York, and if

634
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:29,040
Speaker 1: you're locked up at a precinct at the NYPD, all

635
00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:31,080
Speaker 1: you have to say is you know, I want to

636
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:33,759
Speaker 1: hurt myself or scratch yourself on your arm and they're

637
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:35,680
Speaker 1: going to ship you off to the psych ward. You know,

638
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:37,360
Speaker 1: that's just basically how it goes. So it could have

639
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:40,080
Speaker 1: been a comment she made, could have been an action

640
00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:42,680
Speaker 1: she did against herself. So she's been to underdrage the

641
00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:46,920
Speaker 1: psychiatric evaluation. And right now the NYPD is canvassing for

642
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:49,719
Speaker 1: surveillance footage. They already have some of it. Our law

643
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:52,719
Speaker 1: enforcement sources tell us they're going to get more. They're

644
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:55,839
Speaker 1: interviewing witnesses, and they're going to try to build a case.

645
00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 1: You know, right now, I believe she's considered a person

646
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:02,080
Speaker 1: of interest in them in the kid's death. We're going

647
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:05,600
Speaker 1: to need to get an autopsy as well. Pops won't

648
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:10,400
Speaker 1: usually drop charges until the vis medical examiner finishes their exam,

649
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:13,200
Speaker 1: determines the exact cause of death. You know, it confirms

650
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:15,240
Speaker 1: that it is in fact a homicide and death committed

651
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:18,560
Speaker 1: or caused by another person, and then after that, you know,

652
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 1: we're probably going to see some pretty fifth charges if

653
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:24,920
Speaker 1: the investigation leads that way. It's very hard for a

654
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:32,280
Speaker 1: lay person, a non medical caregiver to understand a mother

655
00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:42,640
Speaker 1: killing her own children. The only way many people can

656
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:48,320
Speaker 1: grapple with that is to believe the mother must be insane,

657
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:54,200
Speaker 1: because is there anything strong or on earth than a

658
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 1: mother's love for her children. I don't think that there is.

659
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:04,560
Speaker 1: This woman is mentally ill. She needs to be away

660
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:09,279
Speaker 1: from a general population. In a jail, they would just

661
00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:13,640
Speaker 1: abuse and take advantage of her. She needs to be

662
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:18,759
Speaker 1: in a mental facility where she can be helped. If not,

663
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:24,040
Speaker 1: God have mercy on your soul. Nancy Grace CRN's story,

664
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:25,400
Speaker 1: signing off goodbyes