Speaker 1: Of the Law and Order franchises. SVU is considered especially watchable.
Speaker 2: We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the
Speaker 2: vicious felonies.
Speaker 1: These episodes are based on.
Speaker 3: These are our stories, done done.
Speaker 2: Hello, welcome to That's Messed Up an sv podcast.
Speaker 1: My name is Lisa, my name is Kara. And it
Speaker 1: took too long of a pause. And you know how
Speaker 1: we do this. Every week we examine an episode of
Speaker 1: SVU the true Crimeate was based on and talked to
Speaker 1: some amazing star who was in that episode. And today's
Speaker 1: no different. We're excited for our guest. And I know
Speaker 1: you guys already got an episode since the Drag Race finale.
Speaker 1: You were probably expecting us to tackle it then, but
Speaker 1: we the order that we're recording, this is when you're
Speaker 1: getting it. So if you don't want to know who
Speaker 1: won drag Race, I don't know, get off the internet
Speaker 1: and stop listening to this podcast for the next five minutes.
Speaker 2: I mean it's impossible. Well, you have to try not
Speaker 2: to see it. You have to try hard not to
Speaker 2: get a drag Race spoiler.
Speaker 1: But Lisa called it. I was sort of going for
Speaker 1: got mic just because I would have loved to have
Speaker 1: seen Simone on All Stars.
Speaker 2: Now Simone straight up like when she came out in
Speaker 2: the handkerchief dress, A tear in my eye like I was,
Speaker 2: I was, I was blown away.
Speaker 1: Also, Lisa was watching this at my house with me
Speaker 1: and two other friends, and I just want to tell
Speaker 1: you guys that when they were talking about like the
Speaker 1: lip syncs tonight are going to be by one artist,
Speaker 1: Lisa had her head in her hands and was like
Speaker 1: waiting for them to say, and they were like the
Speaker 1: one and only Britney Spears, and she was just like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, it.
Speaker 2: Was like it was too good to be true that
Speaker 2: it was with me. It was awesome. It was so
Speaker 2: so good. And I saw that she is the most
Speaker 2: lip SYNCD artist of all of drag Race.
Speaker 1: Oh my god. She has even her like B sides
Speaker 1: that I don't I mean, I won't say Till the
Speaker 1: World Ends is one of my favorites, or like you know,
Speaker 1: but if you pop a Maali, I think it'll be wine.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: When they started sticking to it, I was like, this
Speaker 1: slap's just like every Britney song you know, like.
Speaker 2: It is, uh, it is very very good. But I
Speaker 2: love got mic but she did lose the lip sync.
Speaker 2: You know, it is what it is. But also I
Speaker 2: would have loved a final two of Got Mixed Simon.
Speaker 1: But the wheel is wild. That's I mean literally. Our
Speaker 1: friend Joel Kim Booster was like tweeting, can they not
Speaker 1: rig the wheel? I don't understand, like does this show
Speaker 1: not have the money to rig the wheel? And I've
Speaker 1: never I didn't. I never worked on the finale because
Speaker 1: I was gonna work on this the finale of season
Speaker 1: eleven and I had just just had my baby and
Speaker 1: they were like can you work on this? And I
Speaker 1: was like, can you give me like two weeks like
Speaker 1: have might like be with my baby. So I didn't
Speaker 1: work on that finale. But I don't think that they
Speaker 1: do rig it. I think that it is just like
Speaker 1: being spun. Yeah.
Speaker 2: But also in the past, they made the queens choose who,
Speaker 2: like if it rolled on, you think you got to
Speaker 2: choose who you got who you want, So this was
Speaker 2: an extra twist that there's no one has control over anything.
Speaker 1: It's all wheel based. Yeah, And I think this is
Speaker 1: what they did with the Silky season because I remember
Speaker 1: people thinking like, oh, this knocks out like a person
Speaker 1: you thought was going to be in the top two whatever.
Speaker 1: I mean, Candy muse as number two overall is surprising.
Speaker 1: I mean people are going to be shocked by that. Well.
Speaker 2: I was listening to the Pit Stop with Trixy and
Speaker 2: Katya and they did sell Candy's reveal.
Speaker 1: They're like, Rose's reveal.
Speaker 2: Was very obvious and Candy muses with the white and
Speaker 2: the colorful.
Speaker 1: It was a surprise. It was like a reveal you
Speaker 1: didn't see coming.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the Simone reveal where it's like, oh,
Speaker 2: it's a giant wig, there'll be a wig underneath, and
Speaker 2: then instead it was like ribbon flyers in a cert.
Speaker 1: I mean that it was like a propeller or something. Oh,
Speaker 1: it was wild. It was so good.
Speaker 2: But I love the nail look with the hands holding
Speaker 2: the pigtails. It's just artistry at its finest. Simone is
Speaker 2: reference on reference. Like today, I was looking at the
Speaker 2: details of the wig. Gigi Good made her wig and
Speaker 2: like there was finger waves, and then when you look
Speaker 2: at the nail dress, you're like, oh, it is a
Speaker 2: twenty style flapper and she has finger waves like it
Speaker 2: is reference. And then like the Medusa look with the
Speaker 2: jewelry on the armor.
Speaker 1: I mean it's just so.
Speaker 2: Thought out and beautiful and incredible, and I'm really proud
Speaker 2: of her.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it was a fun finale. I mean, look,
Speaker 1: it's it's not the same I was saying, it's not
Speaker 1: the same energy as the past finales where there's other
Speaker 1: queens in the audience and their parents are in the
Speaker 1: audience and it's really fun. But it was like for COVID,
Speaker 1: it was I thought it was better than doing it
Speaker 1: on zoom.
Speaker 2: And you know, well we also got to see like
Speaker 2: magnificent outfits, like each of those outfits are like ten
Speaker 2: thousand dollars like those or maybe I'm just saying that,
Speaker 2: Please don't don't quote me, but it was to have
Speaker 2: a fashion show of that caliber.
Speaker 1: Was Yeah, it was basically a ball. They just like
Speaker 1: did a ball for the finale, which is fun. We
Speaker 1: didn't love the Bet Middler number, which is weird because
Speaker 1: we love Bette Midler, but that was not for us. No,
Speaker 1: I don't need them singing in BOYD looks. I don't
Speaker 1: need that at all.
Speaker 2: I don't need this little I don't know if any
Speaker 2: of them connect with Bet in anyway. It was I
Speaker 2: understand the AIDS message but I would have read it.
Speaker 2: There had a queen song and we do love bet.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: I didn't, I didn't understand.
Speaker 1: So what else is happening? I am extremely jealous because
Speaker 1: you and one of our other friends are going to
Speaker 1: New York next week. I miss New York so much, everyone,
Speaker 1: my friend. I just talked to my sister. She said
Speaker 1: it was pretty glorious to New York this past weekend.
Speaker 1: Like whether I.
Speaker 2: Mean, I'm arriving on a Tuesday and I'm leaving on
Speaker 2: a Thursday.
Speaker 1: Let's be honest with you know the quick.
Speaker 2: But yeah, am I staying at a magnificent hotel that
Speaker 2: a network is paying for?
Speaker 1: That's right?
Speaker 2: Did I already make drinks and dinner reservations? I sure did?
Speaker 2: And I'm excited. Yeah, I'm excited, and I'm going to
Speaker 2: go to my coffee shop. I lived across the street
Speaker 2: from a coffee shop, Claudia's What's Up Bushwick av It
Speaker 2: used to be called se Lo, but I went there
Speaker 2: at least five times a week. Like when I moved,
Speaker 2: people were like, how are they going to stay afloat?
Speaker 2: I was ordering full banana breads for any party I
Speaker 2: ever was invited to the cold brew. I still dream
Speaker 2: about the breakfast burrito. It's Guatemalan food. I love every
Speaker 2: I just cannot wait to go to my place that
Speaker 2: New York oh here too. I like being a regular,
Speaker 2: That's like part of my passion. Yes, I like a neighborhood.
Speaker 2: I like being a regular. I like waving. I like
Speaker 2: people knowing what's up. I like sometimes I would go
Speaker 2: there without any clothes on, and I would just throw
Speaker 2: on a jacket and go in no pants, and like, I.
Speaker 1: Like that, that's insane.
Speaker 2: What well, sometimes because I'd roll out and I was
Speaker 2: like in my heavy stoner days, and I would just
Speaker 2: be like, I just put on a coat and bugs
Speaker 2: and walk on over.
Speaker 1: You wouldn't feel like maybe I should throw on a
Speaker 1: pair of like box or like nighttime shorts or something
Speaker 1: to cover my no, because I have my coat. Wow,
Speaker 1: if you were wearing a dress, you wouldn't have to
Speaker 1: wear shorts. I just there's something about just being naked
Speaker 1: under a coat going to albodega. To me, that is
Speaker 1: nice bodgaf coffee shop. But I'm thinking of my personal bodega,
Speaker 1: which is where that was my regular place. And if
Speaker 1: I had walked in there in like a coat, bare legged.
Speaker 1: They would have been like, are you okay? Do you
Speaker 1: need us to call your sister?
Speaker 5: Like that's like an SPU character off.
Speaker 2: I did not anticipate this reaction. This is like the
Speaker 2: silverware debacle, because I I totally thought that would be
Speaker 2: a throwaway line of me just talking about how I'm
Speaker 2: such a regular I didn't need to put on collies.
Speaker 1: All these things you think are regular throwaway lines are
Speaker 1: shocking to me. This keeps happening where yeah, I just
Speaker 1: like I would be. I have like an act of
Speaker 1: like imagination where I'm like, okay, so what if I
Speaker 1: got locked out? I guess I could just go down
Speaker 1: there in my coat and my underwear. But what if
Speaker 1: I get locked out? What if I have to chase
Speaker 1: somebody who steals my wallet down the street and I'm
Speaker 1: in my underwear, Like I don't know, I just are
Speaker 1: you wearing underwear under the coat or are you just yeah, okay?
Speaker 1: I got my Calvin's on. Wow, Liza, But it did
Speaker 1: remind me. So you saw.
Speaker 2: So my freshman year in college, roommate, I like I
Speaker 2: had all these miscalls. I exited class and I had
Speaker 2: all these miscalls from her, and I called her back
Speaker 2: and she was livid at me because I guess she
Speaker 2: was in the shower that we all shared and I
Speaker 2: locked the door as I left to go to class,
Speaker 2: and so she was like, I had to go to
Speaker 2: my towel downstairs, and like yelled, and I was like,
Speaker 2: I'm so sorry. I didn't know. I wouldn't have locked it.
Speaker 1: I don't understand what door did you lock to our dorm?
Speaker 1: We shared a dorm. Oh oh, and did you were
Speaker 1: she was in the communal shower? Yeah? I was like, well,
Speaker 1: the immigrant in me was like what am I saying?
Speaker 2: What? No?
Speaker 1: And I feel for her because you know what happened
Speaker 1: to me. I think this is the reason why this
Speaker 1: whole thing triggers me. When I was in eighth grade,
Speaker 1: we went to Washington, d C. The entire class on
Speaker 1: a trip. My mom bought me this like weirdly silky
Speaker 1: Christian door, like and not designer Christian door like Macy's
Speaker 1: rack Christian door or whatever, short silky bathrobe, and so like,
Speaker 1: I brought it with me on the trip. We all
Speaker 1: get there, we're all checking in a hotel. We're like
Speaker 1: in eighth grade, we can't believe we get to stay
Speaker 1: in hotel rooms with our friends. I put this like
Speaker 1: robe on and go to another friend's room or something.
Speaker 1: And then I come back and my friends have left
Speaker 1: the room, and I'm in the hallway with my entire
Speaker 1: class filing past me in a silky short robe and
Speaker 1: I'm naked underneath. So you're basically telling me that you're
Speaker 1: doing my eighth grade DC trip to the bodega or
Speaker 1: the coffee shop, like.
Speaker 2: All the time, and it's just it's thrown me for
Speaker 2: a lot. Wait did your student Did your peers say anything?
Speaker 1: Of course, they were all like and I was like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, this is my fucking nightmare. I mean
Speaker 1: I had braces like it was.
Speaker 2: Well, no, but Kara, my story gets dark. She refused
Speaker 2: to speak to me. She did not accept my apology,
Speaker 2: and she stopped talking to me fully, and I didn't
Speaker 2: want to live in a room with someone that ignored me,
Speaker 2: and I kept being like, girl, it was an accident, Like.
Speaker 1: You can't really do this a little bit much. I mean,
Speaker 1: that's a that's a common mistake.
Speaker 2: So then I ruined her life until she moved out. Okay,
Speaker 2: I put photos of myself all over the room. I
Speaker 2: like blared music. I would blow dry my hair in
Speaker 2: the morning like we were on a full out war.
Speaker 2: And then she moved away and ripped my White Sox
Speaker 2: World Series posters.
Speaker 1: But wow, she knew how to get you wear.
Speaker 2: It hurts, but you know, I acted insane, Like I'm
Speaker 2: sure she tells people like, oh, I lived with a
Speaker 2: lunatic who like ruined my life and moved to the
Speaker 2: TV whatever, But in my head, it's like, just accept
Speaker 2: my apology, like no, whatever.
Speaker 1: That's also because that's one of those things where it's like,
Speaker 1: what if you had left the door open and you
Speaker 1: guys had gotten robbed, and it would have been like,
Speaker 1: but I left the door open because you were in
Speaker 1: the shower.
Speaker 2: Like no, she was like, where else would I have been?
Speaker 1: And I'm like, I don't know. See, the thing I
Speaker 1: liked about our dorms in college was we had codes
Speaker 1: to get in. Every room was coded, so like you
Speaker 1: didn't have to have keys or anything.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: Loved it. But then of course everybody knew your code,
Speaker 1: so the security was low. Lily Milly. That was her name,
Speaker 1: Lily Milly. Oh my god, stop making up names. Liza, No,
Speaker 1: it was no.
Speaker 2: She had her last name I'm not going to say it,
Speaker 2: but oh that was her middle name. Okay, okay, I
Speaker 2: know Hannah is giving me this shut your fucking mouth sims.
Speaker 1: Can we beat it? But that does sound like a
Speaker 1: child's like toy line, like did you get the latest
Speaker 1: Lily Milly? Okay, we should get started, because we have
Speaker 1: a great episode for you today, a real barn Burner
Speaker 1: that's from big business. Didn't I say barn burner one
Speaker 1: time and you said you didn't know what it meant? No,
Speaker 1: because it's but it's from big business. Of course I
Speaker 1: know what it means. Oh okay, I thought I said
Speaker 1: something like barn burner and you go, I don't know
Speaker 1: what that is, but it's going to be big.
Speaker 2: We have listened to all of your demands, requests, emails, dms.
Speaker 1: We are paying the ransom. We are doing identity. Oh
Speaker 1: my gosh, this has been from the beginning the most
Speaker 1: requested episode. We've gotten so many dms that are like,
Speaker 1: do the one with the twins? Do identity?
Speaker 4: Like?
Speaker 2: So here it is Guys, season six, episode twelve. And
Speaker 2: I don't know if this is a specific you know,
Speaker 2: I think this is too conspiracy theory, but it's about twins,
Speaker 2: and twelve divided by two is six? Is this a coincidence?
Speaker 2: I don't know, or is SVU communicating.
Speaker 1: I read your note in the doc and was like,
Speaker 1: I don't think it is, but I'm happy for Liza
Speaker 1: to keep thinking that it is.
Speaker 2: So the episode starts off zoomed in on a GPS
Speaker 2: in like a silver Sporty convertible car, and it's two
Speaker 2: guys that are trying to get laid and meet models
Speaker 2: at an after party, and you could tell their dorks.
Speaker 1: One guy's name Melvin, so he's not getting any but
Speaker 1: they're like, is this the after porty? O don't know what?
Speaker 2: Looks kind of Digiti And so while they're arguing, bam,
Speaker 2: a body falls onto their windshield.
Speaker 1: So we're starting with a big, strong open.
Speaker 2: So the pants are around the ankles of this guy
Speaker 2: and they know that he was thrown off the roof
Speaker 2: because there's no windows on the building. So already the
Speaker 2: detective work is out of control. Now I don't know,
Speaker 2: but the detective work is top notch, top notch.
Speaker 1: That's a good one, okay.
Speaker 2: And they're you know, Milinda, everyone's on the case, the detectives.
Speaker 2: Melinda's there and they're debating like, well, could this be
Speaker 2: a sex worker because two thousand dollars was left behind
Speaker 2: and if it was a sex worker, and they would
Speaker 2: hopefully take the money. So then Melinda is so funny
Speaker 2: and she goes, well, it wasn't a fat enough stack
Speaker 2: to cushion this fall. So that's, you know, some dead
Speaker 2: body humor, which I appreciate.
Speaker 1: I like an Emmy with a sense of humor. Did
Speaker 1: you ever watch Dexter? Yeah, the whole thing.
Speaker 2: Their medical examiner was a real who. He was like
Speaker 2: a pervert. I don't know if you remember him. I remember,
Speaker 2: I forgot his name, but he was a creep and
Speaker 2: I wonder if Melinda would go on a date with
Speaker 2: him or not. Anyways, I mean, she's out of his league.
Speaker 2: But and then Melinda, I don't know how she knows this,
Speaker 2: but the heart was still pumping when he was thrown
Speaker 2: off this roof. So he died with the crash. He
Speaker 2: has a Rolex diamond stud so they know he has money.
Speaker 2: And one of the jewelry pieces has sc A on
Speaker 2: it and they're like, oh what is that? We got
Speaker 2: to do research, and I need to say the fashion
Speaker 2: right away is amazing Stabler is in a dark denim jacket.
Speaker 2: His badge is on the outside front pocket of the coat.
Speaker 2: I'm very attracted to this look. He has a baseball
Speaker 2: cap on. Very cash Dad middle of the Night.
Speaker 1: Yeah, these later seasons they do throw Stabler in a
Speaker 1: denim jacket quite a bit. Yeah.
Speaker 2: If this was like a little Toddler's and Tiara's competition,
Speaker 2: this would be like a leisure where this would be
Speaker 2: his look for that. And then Marishka has like the
Speaker 2: Mom and Brady Bunch flip swoop bangs highlights.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, you're right, it's very Mom and Brady Bunch's
Speaker 1: very Florence Henderson.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you for remembering her name. I was like,
Speaker 2: I couldn't a gun to my head. I don't know
Speaker 2: her name. And then we do get the wildest evidence
Speaker 2: given to us by our emmy. She says there are
Speaker 2: bite marks on the dick, so that's great information. And
Speaker 2: then of course the credits follow a moment like that,
Speaker 2: you know, bite on the dick, but bom so that's how.
Speaker 1: They play with us.
Speaker 2: So we find out the body is Luis Vega and
Speaker 2: he's been to jail before for a cell burglary. No
Speaker 2: like sexual crimes before, and he's been out of jail
Speaker 2: for six months and iced tea of from his previous
Speaker 2: work in other was it the gang unit or drug unit?
Speaker 1: I thought he was in vice, but you get the
Speaker 1: feeling he's maybe done gang stuff too. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so he knows that SCA is a gang called
Speaker 2: Stone Cold Assassins. And I do need to preface this
Speaker 2: next time. This is the longest red herring and I
Speaker 2: think SBU history.
Speaker 1: There is a huge long run around.
Speaker 2: We cannot get into the details of all of this
Speaker 2: gang stuff because we have so much twin action ahead
Speaker 2: of us, So I'm gonna try to.
Speaker 1: Scoot us along.
Speaker 2: But this is like the Simpson style red hairing if
Speaker 2: I've ever seen one. So Munch remembers Claudia, who is
Speaker 2: a woman who accused the dead body of assault before
Speaker 2: the death of this guy and then dropped the charges.
Speaker 2: So they're gonna go visit Claudia. She's working at a
Speaker 2: fruit store.
Speaker 1: She is rude.
Speaker 2: She's like, what the fuck, go away, I'm not I'm busy.
Speaker 2: I have fruits to put away.
Speaker 1: And then she.
Speaker 2: Said she actually never made it into the gang because
Speaker 2: she didn't pass the initiation. Not really thrilled with this initiation.
Speaker 2: But basically, women that want to join the gang, you
Speaker 2: toss the dice and then whatever you roll is how
Speaker 2: many people you have to have sex with. And she
Speaker 2: rolled eleven, but she only made it through three and
Speaker 2: Lewis was number four, and so she left and then
Speaker 2: he attacked her in the stairwell and they're like, so
Speaker 2: you got revenge, You got revenge, and she's like, fuck you.
Speaker 2: You think I'm the only girl this guy raped. Get
Speaker 2: in line. Okay, there's tons of people, which I thought
Speaker 2: was kind of a great point, like this guy's a scumbag,
Speaker 2: so lots of people wanted him dead. And so then
Speaker 2: they move on to a pizza place with pinballs. Where
Speaker 2: are we I don't understand, but these two girls that
Speaker 2: look like they ransacked a Claire's Accessories store are playing pinball.
Speaker 2: There's bandanas, beanies, earrings, rings, necklaces. I mean, so much
Speaker 2: gold on these girls. And one of them has acrylic
Speaker 2: nails with SCA printed on them, and I relate to
Speaker 2: this look. When the White Sox went to the World Series,
Speaker 2: I did get acrylic nails that said White so with
Speaker 2: diamonds and the pinkies. So I get it. So they
Speaker 2: have a conversation with them. They're like, YadA YadA, gang,
Speaker 2: the pizza slices are ready, we're busy, and they give
Speaker 2: us the scoop that Luis used to fuck.
Speaker 1: With a.
Speaker 2: Mute, deaf, homeless woman. Is that politically correct?
Speaker 1: How do I explain it to her?
Speaker 2: She can't hear, she can't talk, and she's living on
Speaker 2: the streets, so that's the scoop on her. And they
Speaker 2: said that she was hot, so she's not ugly, and
Speaker 2: she sleeps on the roof. That's the scoop we get
Speaker 2: from the Claire's girls. So now we're at Saint Anne's
Speaker 2: with Sister Peg the none with all the heart.
Speaker 1: She knows sign language.
Speaker 2: So she throws on a purse that, you know, like
Speaker 2: a woman in a remote village made and then you
Speaker 2: buy it at a street fair and the people are
Speaker 2: like it's fair trade and she's like, I'm supporting this purse.
Speaker 2: So it's that kind of a purse, you know. It's weaved,
Speaker 2: it's very weaved.
Speaker 1: And woven woven.
Speaker 2: They find the hot woman. She is digging in the
Speaker 2: trash with an other woman named Betty, and she's like,
Speaker 2: go away. I was sleeping at Grand Central last night,
Speaker 2: and they're like, what, we didn't even say that last night.
Speaker 2: Why are you talking about last night? And so she goes, no,
Speaker 2: I went back to the roof afterwards. I saw his
Speaker 2: dead body on the car. And she goes, I had
Speaker 2: nothing to do with it, and they tell her, like,
Speaker 2: the gang is after you, whether you like it or not,
Speaker 2: so you need to work with us or like you're
Speaker 2: going to be dead. So she starts running away and
Speaker 2: sister PEG's like, leave her alone. I'll go talk to her.
Speaker 2: You don't even know sign language, and she doesn't trust you.
Speaker 2: So the scoop they get from Betty is Louise pays
Speaker 2: fifty dollars a bag for the garbage that they put together,
Speaker 2: and the garbage is filled with bills, papers, addresses, things
Speaker 2: that you would use to fake identities and scam people
Speaker 2: and steal people's identities. So with that information, we then
Speaker 2: see the FBI and our cops break into this underground office,
Speaker 2: a sweatshop of identity theft work is happening, and Munch says,
Speaker 2: and people call me crazy for shredding my junk mail,
Speaker 2: and it's like no one is talking to you, Munch okay,
Speaker 2: like you are so annoying.
Speaker 1: But I do rip up my junk mail. I do
Speaker 1: rip it up. Do you rip it up? Or do
Speaker 1: you have a shredder? I don't have a shudder, but
Speaker 1: I rip it up into enough pieces that nobody can
Speaker 1: open a credit card in my name.
Speaker 2: I'm shocked you don't have a shredder, and maybe you will, sue. Oh, Hanukkah, baby,
Speaker 2: your birthday is before Hanukkah. Come on, yeah, you're right,
Speaker 2: You're right. What if when you have your baby, I
Speaker 2: give you a shredder?
Speaker 1: Okay? I I already.
Speaker 2: Have your new baby's gift planned and I cannot wait
Speaker 2: to get it. Okay, but in my culture, we don't
Speaker 2: buy things before the baby is born. And I always
Speaker 2: am scared people think I'm cheap at baby showers and
Speaker 2: I'm not.
Speaker 1: I'm just no, I'm totally superstick. No, I don't think
Speaker 1: you do. Okay.
Speaker 2: So now, unfortunately, Sister Peg runs into the precinct.
Speaker 1: She's crying Katie's dead.
Speaker 2: Someone slit her throat, cut her face from ear to ear.
Speaker 1: Clearly it's a.
Speaker 2: Message, and Sister pegs up. But she did see the guy,
Speaker 2: which is good. Now we're at Theme's office and the
Speaker 2: bitemarks on the dick do not match Katie. But another
Speaker 2: twist in this whole story is there's a Y chromosome
Speaker 2: in the genetic tests of the DNA saliva listen a
Speaker 2: lot of science, so it's a man. So now we
Speaker 2: know the person that bit on the dick is a man.
Speaker 2: Now Sister Peg is able to finger the guy that
Speaker 2: killed Katie. It's Hector Ramirez and he has the weapon
Speaker 2: on him like an idiot. He has a dragon tattoo
Speaker 2: that Sister Peg saw. He's done. He says something about
Speaker 2: how Katie begged for her life, and Sister Peg says
Speaker 2: but she doesn't speak, and so they are like, what
Speaker 2: did she sign? What did she sign? And Hector Ramirez
Speaker 2: shows that before Kate he killed Katie, she signed graffiti,
Speaker 2: so she kept saying graffiti, graffiti, graffiti. So they go
Speaker 2: back to the rooftop to check out all the graffiti there,
Speaker 2: going off of kate clue of graffiti. So they see
Speaker 2: a bunch of graffiti and there's a signature SYK and
Speaker 2: also B to two B which stands for born to
Speaker 2: be bad, which can only lead us to the Upper
Speaker 2: East Side.
Speaker 1: Such a dorky fucking name for your crew.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, it's very, very silly. So it's not
Speaker 2: a gang, it's a writing crew. They're in a rich
Speaker 2: kid's school and it's just graffiti rich kids just And
Speaker 2: what Stabler says, which I like to learn this, that
Speaker 2: graffiti is about street cred. So the three rules of
Speaker 2: it or how you get like street cred is style, volume,
Speaker 2: and degree of risk. So obviously this rooftop spring would
Speaker 2: have been a very risky place.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think this is all very interesting because you know,
Speaker 1: I love across the street from a high school, and
Speaker 1: there's just one blank wall in the side of this
Speaker 1: high school that is constantly getting tagged, and it's never good.
Speaker 1: No one's ever taking the time to like make a
Speaker 1: nice mural or do like a tribute to someone who died.
Speaker 1: It's literally just like a bunch of scribble bat and
Speaker 1: then they just they just paint over it. Two days later,
Speaker 1: I'm like, what are you guys doing, Like, what's the point? Well,
Speaker 1: I don't know. If they're painting over it the school,
Speaker 1: probably the school's painting over is what I'm saying. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So I'm just saying, like it's just not good it's
Speaker 1: like it's I don't know, I get, but I get
Speaker 1: how like it's probably really hot to do like an
Speaker 1: overpass where you have to like hang upside down and
Speaker 1: like do it and stuff. That shit's probably big points.
Speaker 2: Big points, and I always I don't know if I've
Speaker 2: brought this up on the show before, but there's an
Speaker 2: episode of Project Runway from many seasons ago I've never
Speaker 2: watched with Carly Klass but this was a Heidi year
Speaker 2: but they called they had a graffiti challenge, but they
Speaker 2: called it aerosol art, and that always humiliated me. So
Speaker 2: finally the red herring is done, we are where we
Speaker 2: need to be, and we meet Logan.
Speaker 1: Stanton rich little boy in a little suit.
Speaker 2: So yeah, we go from full on gang warfare and
Speaker 2: gang rapes to prep school kid in a tie. And
Speaker 2: I love that. I love that shocking twist. Logan is saying,
Speaker 2: it's not me. I'm not scared, I'm pissed. I was
Speaker 2: home in my bed, back off motherfuckers.
Speaker 1: And they well, they find they find Logan right because
Speaker 1: Psycho is his tag, like they have like a record.
Speaker 1: They go talk to like the Graffiti Unit guy and
Speaker 1: he's like, yeah, s y Ko is psycho. That's this
Speaker 1: kid Logan Stanton, and that's how they find him.
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, yeah, So thank you for the detail. I
Speaker 2: obviously well, I was trying to show off how quickly
Speaker 2: I can get through the red herring, and I think
Speaker 2: it what, I don't know why that was my goal.
Speaker 1: I'm confused. I thought you weren't going to get into
Speaker 1: it at all. You're like, I'm not really going to
Speaker 1: get into it, and then you did a full explanation.
Speaker 2: I never know what to leave out of this fucking show.
Speaker 2: I love it all, leave it all on the floor.
Speaker 2: So Rebecca Hendrix is.
Speaker 1: Here, what do do you say it? I can't even okay,
Speaker 1: So then enter Rebecca Hendrix, who we've met in a
Speaker 1: previous episode and has some sexual tension with Elliott.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Mary Stuart Masterson baby, And so background on her
Speaker 2: if you don't know, is she is a therapist, but
Speaker 2: she used to be a cop, so she knows all
Speaker 2: the tricks and games and still has a detective spirit
Speaker 2: but has to follow you know, the hippocodes, and so
Speaker 2: you know she's always towing the line of ethics.
Speaker 1: But remember that you say that she's always what is
Speaker 1: the say she's always like pushing the boundaries of ethics.
Speaker 2: She's always pushing the boundaries of ethics. So she and
Speaker 2: Kragan are behind the mirror while Logan's being interrogated, being like, hey,
Speaker 2: he's underage, where are the parents? And Kragan's like, shut up,
Speaker 2: you dumb bitch. So they're having fun. They're having fun.
Speaker 1: Imagine if Craigan said that sometimes, shut up, you dumb bitch,
Speaker 1: I would love it.
Speaker 2: So Craigan leaves to go chat with Logan's parents who arrive,
Speaker 2: and that's mister and Missus Stanton.
Speaker 1: And mister Stanton is an SVU alum.
Speaker 2: He has been in a previous episode Privilege, and he's
Speaker 2: also an sex in the City alum. He's the guy
Speaker 2: who had sex with Samantha who kept talking in baby
Speaker 2: talk and she just said.
Speaker 1: Can you stop these are my breast? Stop calling him.
Speaker 2: Titty witties and he got really offended and left.
Speaker 1: So I wait, can I also say that the mom
Speaker 1: I'm looking it up right now, really quick. My computer
Speaker 1: is the slowest thing ever. But the mom is also
Speaker 1: a long time Hillary Bailey Smith. She was I believe
Speaker 1: Nora Buchanan is her name on One Life to Live forever,
Speaker 1: huge part on the soap opera and a big part
Speaker 1: of my childhood. I bet that's a neil bergat Yeah,
Speaker 1: he's probably like and of course we all know her
Speaker 1: from one life to live as more if Buchanan.
Speaker 2: One hundred percent, and you know they're rich parents, they're like,
Speaker 2: this is a mistake. What's going on? And then the
Speaker 2: greatest thing ever happens. We meet Lindsay who is Logan Logan, Lindsay,
Speaker 2: Lindsay Logan. This is a parent trap situation. We have
Speaker 2: one person playing both parts, which is.
Speaker 1: Amazing gender bendy.
Speaker 2: So the actor is Riley mcclindon, and this is the
Speaker 2: performance of the decade.
Speaker 1: Honest said, he doesn't act anymore. It's really terrible. He
Speaker 1: was so good in this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, he found the Lord and he's working
Speaker 2: in the church, so he left theater behind the theater arts.
Speaker 2: He's no longer a thespian. I mean, maybe he's putting
Speaker 2: up some Jesus plays around Christmas. We don't know, but
Speaker 2: I wish. I mean, it's just like amazing. It's amazing wigwork,
Speaker 2: it's amazing acting and I just love seeing him shine
Speaker 2: like this. So she's full on, like, excuse me, my
Speaker 2: brother was home. I saw him and Craigan's like in
Speaker 2: the middle of the night and she says, yeah, he
Speaker 2: falls asleep with the TV blaring all the time and
Speaker 2: it woke me up. And it was two thirty four
Speaker 2: am because I remember thinking two three four right in order.
Speaker 2: And she's like, I went to turn off the TV
Speaker 2: and he called me a butt face. What so yeah,
Speaker 2: So she has the story down, so they're like, we
Speaker 2: can take him home whatever.
Speaker 1: Cut to saliva matches perfectly. Dunt dunt dum Okay, so
Speaker 1: the saliva is a match for this sliva found on
Speaker 1: Lewis Slash Louise's dick. Yes.
Speaker 2: Then by going by a couple names, the bite marks
Speaker 2: match as someone named Liza. I should know to be respectful,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean? But I don't think people.
Speaker 1: Do pronounce yeah. People pronounce much like your name. People
Speaker 1: pronounce it with yeah.
Speaker 2: But I correct people and I have an attitude, so well.
Speaker 1: Rip Luise. He's not going to be alive to correct
Speaker 1: people anymore.
Speaker 2: So and then Rebecca, I love this. She's so desperate
Speaker 2: to be a cop again. She's like, can I come
Speaker 2: with you?
Speaker 1: Please?
Speaker 2: Like to best stabler just like hold like holding onto
Speaker 2: her collar, like begging them to go on the scene,
Speaker 2: and she's giving them some scoop on the psych stuff
Speaker 2: and like, hey, he might be scared to come out
Speaker 2: if it's like a gay situation.
Speaker 1: Also like attacking your abuser.
Speaker 2: Comes with more consequences all of this, and they're like, yeah,
Speaker 2: we're SVU detectives. Rebecca back off, but they allow her
Speaker 2: to come. So they're in a multimillion dollar home ready
Speaker 2: to ruin a family's evening and the mom is like,
Speaker 2: this is a nightmare. I don't understand. And the parents
Speaker 2: bring Logan down and go, why are you lying? Because
Speaker 2: they know that the DNA matches and they're smart enough
Speaker 2: to know DNA doesn't lie. And he's like, I'm not
Speaker 2: fucking lying. So then he goes, why is no one
Speaker 2: listening to me? And Rebecca says, I'll listen to you.
Speaker 2: And this is my favorite. Lindsay goes, who the hell
Speaker 2: are you? I love her vibe and ash Rebecca says
Speaker 2: I'm a psychiatrist, and this makes Logan go insane. He screams.
Speaker 2: He says, I told you no more shrinks. He throws
Speaker 2: a vase that's perfectly placed right in the middle of
Speaker 2: the table, just right for him to grab. He smashes
Speaker 2: it onto the ground, so Stabler grabs him. He's fighting
Speaker 2: and Lindsey bangs him with a metal candlestickholder, like this
Speaker 2: is the movie clue, so we know that the fight
Speaker 2: has escalated, and we cut to the child's psych room,
Speaker 2: you know where they interrogate children. Benson and Lindsay are
Speaker 2: sitting there and Lindsay fractured Stabler's rib.
Speaker 1: Lol. Love that.
Speaker 2: And then Benson fashion moment wearing a long sleeved shirt
Speaker 2: with a T shirt on top of it, which is
Speaker 2: a trend.
Speaker 1: I rode very, very hard in my youth.
Speaker 2: I loved layering, loved layering ash shirts like that, and
Speaker 2: it's great and I just fucking love this moment.
Speaker 1: She's having very two thousands.
Speaker 2: Lindsay says it wasn't her brother and it was her
Speaker 2: and she was alone, and Benson's like, it's impossible. The
Speaker 2: DNA is male. You're like, you have something is going on,
Speaker 2: and Lindsay says, no, listen, it's you know, my brother
Speaker 2: has a group for tagging and graffiti, but they won't
Speaker 2: let girls in. So I thought, if I can tag
Speaker 2: somewhere wild. They would have to let me in, and
Speaker 2: Benson says, but it's his signature, and she goes, no,
Speaker 2: he's psych Oh I'm psyche. I just didn't have time
Speaker 2: to finish. I got to the K and she reveals
Speaker 2: what happened on the roof and she says she felt
Speaker 2: a tug on her leg, was pulled down and this
Speaker 2: man was going to punch her in the face and
Speaker 2: then noticed she was a girl and said, I have
Speaker 2: something better for you. He un zipped his pants and
Speaker 2: then she just bit down as hard as she could
Speaker 2: and he stumbled back and fell off the edge. She
Speaker 2: is crying and she's saying it happened to her, and
Speaker 2: you know, Rebecca Hendrix in a lab coat is giving
Speaker 2: a twin rundown where she says, you know, twins sometimes
Speaker 2: are so connected they imagine that things are happening to them.
Speaker 1: She could have felt all of this in her.
Speaker 2: Bed because like you know, they have the DNA, so
Speaker 2: they think she's lying and she still could be dune
Speaker 2: dun duhn. Okay, But Logan is saying in a different
Speaker 2: interrogation room, it wasn't me, It wasn't me, And they
Speaker 2: want to talk to each other. They really want to
Speaker 2: talk to each other. So they're debating if they should
Speaker 2: let the twins talk to each other. Our new best friend,
Speaker 2: Diane Neil arrives and she's on the scene wanting some scoop,
Speaker 2: and you know it's Casey Novac. She goes, hello, all intruder,
Speaker 2: an investigation whenever I can, Hendrix and Novak go and
Speaker 2: talk in private, and she breaks some doctor rules. So
Speaker 2: Rebecca's putting her neck on the line for this case
Speaker 2: because of her cop background.
Speaker 1: She cares too much.
Speaker 2: And she's telling Novak that she looked at birth records
Speaker 2: from the hospital when the twins were born and that
Speaker 2: Casey should subpoena the records, but she can't give her
Speaker 2: the scoop because that would break her doctor laws. But
Speaker 2: Casey can't just like subpoena random shit, you know. So
Speaker 2: what Rebecca Hendrix decides to do is, I'll tell you
Speaker 2: what's not in there. She goes a ton of stuff
Speaker 2: is redacted. And the therapist that they are seeing is
Speaker 2: a sex therapist. Why are child twins going to a
Speaker 2: sex therapist?
Speaker 1: Right? They're fourteen? Like, why are they going to a
Speaker 1: sex therapist? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, And This really reminds me of one of my
Speaker 2: favorite movies of all time. But I'm a cheerleader. I
Speaker 2: don't know if this is in your wheelhouse, Kara.
Speaker 1: I've never seen that. We have to do a sleepover.
Speaker 2: It's RuPaul is in it as a boy. Okay, star
Speaker 2: studied Natasha Leone, who's an svu alum clea duval svu
Speaker 2: alum And I'm sure more like it's an amazing fucking movie.
Speaker 1: But done and done. Yeah, it's just like.
Speaker 2: A gender sex therapy, gay fun thing. It did some
Speaker 2: things to me when I would rent it from Blockbuster
Speaker 2: a week after week after week. It was a really
Speaker 2: important movie for me. But anyways, why are these teens
Speaker 2: with the sex therapist?
Speaker 1: So they do allow the twins.
Speaker 2: To talk to each other, and immediately they go into
Speaker 2: a secret twin language, and Stabler says that his twins
Speaker 2: had it, and Benson is like a regular old Karen
Speaker 2: and she's like English only, English only, And they don't
Speaker 2: like that the twins are having their own fun time.
Speaker 1: And Hendrix is.
Speaker 2: A super quick liar because the sixth therapist barges in
Speaker 2: and is like, I told you to stay off this.
Speaker 2: This is my case and she's like, oh no, no, no,
Speaker 2: the detective just wanted to see them. I'm just observing.
Speaker 1: I'm just chilling.
Speaker 2: And Casey's like, Hella, what are you seeing them for?
Speaker 2: And of course he can't tell her a duh law.
Speaker 2: It's therapy. I love that I could tell my therapist's secrets.
Speaker 2: It's honestly one of my favorite things. I'm always like, well,
Speaker 2: I can't tell you this, but I can because you're
Speaker 2: my therapist, and I love it. I love secret therapy rules.
Speaker 2: But it's a full on messine there, Like one of
Speaker 2: the twins is on a table, Benson's holding that like,
Speaker 2: it's just pandemonium. It really is kind of like a
Speaker 2: Benny Hill movie, honestly. And so the therapist is like, Okay,
Speaker 2: they don't know what to do with children.
Speaker 1: This is enough. So now we're at.
Speaker 2: My favorite kind of SVU trope. It's an expedition treasure
Speaker 2: hunt of witnesses and workers and characters, and I just
Speaker 2: I love this so much.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a parade of nannies.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So first we get a housekeeper and she gives
Speaker 2: us the scoop that when they come home from therapy,
Speaker 2: they lock themselves in separate rooms and don't speak for days,
Speaker 2: and she says, listen. They have a lot of nannies
Speaker 2: talk to them. So then one of the nanny says,
Speaker 2: they're violent little urchins. They have knocked down dragdowns. Which
Speaker 2: is that my new drag name?
Speaker 1: Okay, knock down drag out? Oh did I spell it? Okay?
Speaker 1: The fights are instigated by Lindsay.
Speaker 2: Mom always is bullying Lindsay, picking out her clothes, hair makeup.
Speaker 2: She has a lot of chronic urinary infections as a child,
Speaker 2: She's always running around naked, ripping her dresses off, and
Speaker 2: she had a lot of scarring in her little area.
Speaker 2: That is not the way, that's not my language. That's
Speaker 2: a nanny. So they obviously tell the parents, like, why
Speaker 2: does your child have scarring on her little area? And
Speaker 2: he goes she's had urinary reflux problems and needed surgery,
Speaker 2: and they say, why are you giving her weight Look? Oh,
Speaker 2: they're like, why are you giving her birth control pills?
Speaker 2: They're like, it's weight loss pills. They're like, why are
Speaker 2: they going to a sex therapist? It's just it's a mess.
Speaker 2: And then in the background, if you have an eye
Speaker 2: for art, like I do, they do have a cool
Speaker 2: like soft served ice cream painting in the background, which,
Speaker 2: if you'd like to go pause and look at it.
Speaker 1: I liked it.
Speaker 2: So the parents are getting pissed that they're being like
Speaker 2: interrogated like this. The detectives get no information. These parents
Speaker 2: have an answer for everything that they're being accused of,
Speaker 2: and so the housekeeper runs out and is like, listen,
Speaker 2: you're wrong about the kids. The mom caught Lindsey making
Speaker 2: out with a girl, and the mom is mad because
Speaker 2: there's like a lesbian situation.
Speaker 1: So when the when the housekeeper says you're wrong about
Speaker 1: the kids, it's because it's because the cops are kind
Speaker 1: of implying that these kids are having a sexual relationship
Speaker 1: with each other.
Speaker 2: Well, that's a really big thing that I missed. Wow,
Speaker 2: I'm glad you're here, Kara. Okay, No, there's a lot.
Speaker 1: There's so much in this episode. So it's basically just
Speaker 1: kind of like, wait, so what's going on? Why are
Speaker 1: they seeing sex? If they're having sex with each other,
Speaker 1: you have to tell us, you know. And everyone's like
Speaker 1: that's crazy. And then the housekeeper kind of comes out
Speaker 1: to be like, actually she's a lesbian.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we get a lot of doctor Rebecca Hendrix,
Speaker 2: which is exciting for us, and she says, listen, Lindsay
Speaker 2: was born July fourteenth, nineteen ninety, but Lindsay's birth certificate
Speaker 2: was reissued six months later, so this is a big clue, Like,
Speaker 2: what's going on here and we need to get to
Speaker 2: the bottom of it.
Speaker 1: Well, doctor Hendrix breaks the rules and pulls the mom's
Speaker 1: file from the hospital of where she gave birth.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and she sees that there was baby boy A
Speaker 2: and baby boy B. So two boy twins were born.
Speaker 2: They were identical twins. Lindsay was born male and the
Speaker 2: mom gave birth to two healthy boys. So they're like,
Speaker 2: what the fuck did these parents do? So now we
Speaker 2: finally the parents have no more lies and they have
Speaker 2: to come clean. And what happened was the circumcision got
Speaker 2: fucked up. The device malfunction and burned him severely, and
Speaker 2: all the experts said that he would never be normal,
Speaker 2: not be a fully functional boy, and he couldn't get
Speaker 2: a prosthesis till junior high. And the parents were scared
Speaker 2: of the abuse he would take in the locker rooms
Speaker 2: and they just wanted him to be normal, and they
Speaker 2: were like, what about the humiliation of telling the girl
Speaker 2: he fell in.
Speaker 1: Love with, and YadA YadA.
Speaker 2: But and then Benson says, but you thought putting your
Speaker 2: kid through a full on sex change operation as a
Speaker 2: baby was better for your child, And this just brings
Speaker 2: up I don't know, like, it's crazy how many choices
Speaker 2: parents make to protect them from other kids being shitty
Speaker 2: instead of people raising their kids to be less shitty.
Speaker 1: You know, or open minded.
Speaker 2: It is weird that you would do all that to
Speaker 2: be like, well, I don't want them getting made fun of,
Speaker 2: and it's like that sucks. I don't know, it's just
Speaker 2: it's weird that that's such a big thing because your
Speaker 2: kid will get me fun of for everything.
Speaker 1: Well, yes, but I mean, but then they do get
Speaker 1: into the fact that they were persuaded by this therapist
Speaker 1: doctor Blair.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and says one of the most chilling things of
Speaker 2: all of SVU. He says, it's easier digging a hole
Speaker 2: than building a pole, which you know, I guess I
Speaker 2: don't know. I've never done either, but it seems intense.
Speaker 2: And the sex therapist doctor what bias Bail Blair Blair,
Speaker 2: we have a friend named Blair. Not bragging, but she
Speaker 2: so she had to go through urinary surgery, remove testes,
Speaker 2: and a panectomy. And then Benson says, so you slap
Speaker 2: a bow on her and call her a girl. And
Speaker 2: then they go, no, you know, at puberty, we give hormones,
Speaker 2: so she gets hips and girl features and they have
Speaker 2: to treat her like a girl and she will be
Speaker 2: a girl. And they're like, it didn't work, you fucking idiot.
Speaker 2: She is miserable. And then the sex therapist, doctor Blair, says,
Speaker 2: what fourteen year old girl isn't I hate this guy.
Speaker 1: You're supposed to hate him. If you're on the side
Speaker 1: of this.
Speaker 2: Guy, you're supposed to hate him. So Stabler way woke
Speaker 2: than I've ever seen. Stabler says, you can't change someone's
Speaker 2: sexual identity. Where did this guy come from? This is
Speaker 2: like the woke Charlotte meme from Sex and the City. Like,
Speaker 2: I'm very shocked by Stabler saying this. But the therapist
Speaker 2: believes children are born sexually neutral and a blank slate,
Speaker 2: and gender identity is determined by nurture, not nature. So
Speaker 2: this was kind of like this therapists sweat dream he loves,
Speaker 2: like he was selfish about this. He wasn't about like
Speaker 2: the kids' lives and how good they were. Like to him,
Speaker 2: this was the greatest experiment that came into his lap.
Speaker 2: But this brings suspicions to the therapist because he says, wait,
Speaker 2: only a few people know about this. How the hell
Speaker 2: did you find out secrets? Please don't tell him. So
Speaker 2: the therapist is like, don't tell her, and Stabler says,
Speaker 2: if you don't think this is going to come out
Speaker 2: a criminal investigation, you're a fucking idiot. He goes, well,
Speaker 2: at least let me be there. So cut to the
Speaker 2: child interrogation room. Novak doctor Blair are there and they
Speaker 2: are with Lindsay and they're just gathering her statement and
Speaker 2: she's about to sign the statement. But she's not an idiot,
Speaker 2: so she says, wait, but you said it could only
Speaker 2: be Logan, Like, what's going on? Like something doesn't add up?
Speaker 2: What did you mean that my brother had.
Speaker 1: To do it? She goes, stop it, tell me what's
Speaker 1: going on. I feel like I'm going crazy.
Speaker 2: And Rebecca barges in and is like, I need to
Speaker 2: talk to you, doctor Blair, and doctor Blair says, shut
Speaker 2: your mouth, and Lindsay goes in the verge of tears says,
Speaker 2: you know something, Please tell me, tell me. The acting
Speaker 2: is incredible, and she tells the sex doc you have
Speaker 2: to tell her, like you know, and he says, I'm
Speaker 2: going to report you to the review board of medicine.
Speaker 2: It's a very intense moment. So Rebecca says, you were
Speaker 2: born a boy. Lindsay doesn't understand, and she explains there
Speaker 2: was an accident when you were born, and Lindsay knew it.
Speaker 2: She's like, I knew what I knew, knew it. I
Speaker 2: never once felt right. I always felt like a freak.
Speaker 2: Why did anybody tell me? Why didn't anyone tell me?
Speaker 2: And I'm on her side. And her name was Lucas.
Speaker 2: The sex therapist who's selfish as hell the whole time,
Speaker 2: is like, your normal girl, whatever, stop being mad, just
Speaker 2: be you, just be Frankenstein for me, and he tells
Speaker 2: Rebecca Hendrix you're finished and storms off. The end of
Speaker 2: the episode, doctor Hendrix is packing up her office. She's
Speaker 2: no longer welcome to work at the hospital, but it'll
Speaker 2: give her time to get ready for the hearing. Benson
Speaker 2: and Stabler are obviously like, sorry, girl, but you did
Speaker 2: the right thing, and Hendrix goes for a cop, so
Speaker 2: I have nothing to comment. Okay, Lindsay now has stopped
Speaker 2: taking meds. Now is a boy will be known as
Speaker 2: Lucas and doctor Hendrix genders him properly. So ahead of
Speaker 2: her time, Logan is in Cragan's office and wants to
Speaker 2: file charges against doctor Blair, the sex therapist, and reveals
Speaker 2: that the sex therapist was molesting the twins and it's
Speaker 2: been going on for years, showing them photos of adults
Speaker 2: having sex and put the twins into sexual positions and
Speaker 2: made the twins pretend that they were having sex to
Speaker 2: each other. So the sex doctors like, hey, it was treatment,
Speaker 2: she needs to learn her sexual roles, but why did
Speaker 2: the other twin have to be there? And also it
Speaker 2: takes away his theory of nature versus nurture, you know
Speaker 2: what I mean, Like if you have to train her
Speaker 2: to do this, then it's not all nurture, so you're wrong, Like,
Speaker 2: I don't know how you're letting this happen. And then
Speaker 2: his whole thing is like, but there's no penetration, and
Speaker 2: it's like I still think making children dry hump is rape.
Speaker 2: I don't know, I don't know penetration fully matters in
Speaker 2: assaults like this, and then there's like a nice comedy
Speaker 2: moment which I like where doctor Blair says it wasn't porn,
Speaker 2: it was art books and Stabler says there was a
Speaker 2: lot of dix. Okay, it made me uncomfortable, and doctor
Speaker 2: Blair says, that's because you're a bourgeois American completely uptight
Speaker 2: about sex, which screws up your children and turns them
Speaker 2: into sex offenders. And Stabler like amazing comedy note moment.
Speaker 2: He looks dumb as hell and just goes, you lost
Speaker 2: me at bourgeois and I just love when Maloney.
Speaker 1: Gets to, you know, work his chops out.
Speaker 2: And then we have a moment that comes out of
Speaker 2: nowhere where sister Peg is at the precinct and picks
Speaker 2: up I think this is just like maybe a learning
Speaker 2: moment for the audience, but picks up a check from
Speaker 2: the crime Victim's Board for six thousand dollars to give
Speaker 2: Katie a proper burial. And through doing this podcast, I
Speaker 2: learned about organizations like this that, like the government, does
Speaker 2: help victims of violent crimes in many different ways.
Speaker 1: So doctor Blair was left in.
Speaker 2: Jail for three days because Casey's friend who's a file clerk,
Speaker 2: accidentally in quotes, misplaced the paperwork and so he got
Speaker 2: like stuck in jail, which they love.
Speaker 1: That's like funny, haha, when it's like a white disgusting
Speaker 1: sex therapist. But not as funny when like people are
Speaker 1: kept in jail for like three years for doing absolutely
Speaker 1: nothing because of random bureaucracy.
Speaker 2: Yes, but doctor Blair should have stayed in jail because
Speaker 2: now he's murdered. Someone bashed his brains in and left
Speaker 2: the murder weapon and then the killer spit on him,
Speaker 2: so there will be DNA, thank you. Obviously it's the twins. Okay,
Speaker 2: if you're you know, Rebecca Hendrix isn't doing this. But
Speaker 2: the twins. They're very smart, very smart twins. They went
Speaker 2: to the movies together for a double feature. One of
Speaker 2: them did leave, but they were mirraring matching parkas, so
Speaker 2: no one knows which one left. And the thing is,
Speaker 2: they can't prove it because it's identical twins, identical twin DNA.
Speaker 2: Luke stopped taking the estrogen so it's out of his system,
Speaker 2: and they can't do separate trials because if they charge
Speaker 2: both of them take the way beyond a reasonable doubt
Speaker 2: and it gives grounds for a dismissal of each of
Speaker 2: their court cases. And neither of them are going to
Speaker 2: flip on each other. They have secret languages and everything.
Speaker 2: They love each other and the end is probably one
Speaker 2: of the in a good way. Haunting. One of the
Speaker 2: fun is Taunted episodes. But they're like in separate interrogation rooms,
Speaker 2: but they're like touching the walls. How do you like
Speaker 2: touching the walls in their hands on opposite walls, a
Speaker 2: lot of wall touching.
Speaker 1: There's just a wall between them, but they have their
Speaker 1: ears up and it's like mirror imaging, and like, you know,
Speaker 1: the cops are like they came up with the perfect crime.
Speaker 1: Like these kids are smart, Like they literally know they
Speaker 1: must know about double jeopardy. They know about identical DNA,
Speaker 1: and they know how long it takes estrogen to work
Speaker 1: its way out of DNA. Like they're really smart. Who
Speaker 1: do you think killed the therapist? Which one?
Speaker 2: That's such a good question, Kara, I'm so stupid. I
Speaker 2: didn't even think about it. I feel like it's Lucas,
Speaker 2: Like Lucas had more Yeah, yeah, you're right, Lucas had
Speaker 2: his life fucking demolished because of this dude.
Speaker 1: But then also it could be but it completely also
Speaker 1: traumatized Logan, so they both had they both had, you know, well,
Speaker 1: because Logan could have been like I will do this
Speaker 1: for you.
Speaker 2: I love you, so mu yah, and like I will
Speaker 2: fucking take the bullet for you and murder this motherfucker.
Speaker 2: But I agree with you that I do think it's
Speaker 2: Lucas because of the full trauma.
Speaker 1: Maybe we'll put a little we'll put a little Instagram poll.
Speaker 1: That's exactly what we're going to do, and we'll see
Speaker 1: what the listeners think.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the more gelled up hair is Lucas. And once
Speaker 2: you get on the Instagram.
Speaker 1: All right, let's take a quick break and then I'll
Speaker 1: be back to tell you all about the fucked up
Speaker 1: stuff that happened in real life.
Speaker 4: All right.
Speaker 1: So this episode is based on the story of David Rymer,
Speaker 1: who was born Bruce Peter Reimer in nineteen sixty five
Speaker 1: as the elder of two identical twin boys. His brother
Speaker 1: was named Brian. They were Canadian born in Winnipeg and
Speaker 1: their parents wore Mennonites. So I don't know what the
Speaker 1: Mennonite policy is on circumcision. But the twins were not
Speaker 1: circumcised at birth, and it was later when they were
Speaker 1: around six months old they were having some trouble with
Speaker 1: your nation and they were diagnosed with famosis. Now I've
Speaker 1: read about famosis before because I believe it's Louis the sixteenth,
Speaker 1: whichever Louis was married to Marie Antoinette is rumored to
Speaker 1: have had famosis, which is basically when your foreskin won't retract.
Speaker 1: So the best way I can describe it is like
Speaker 1: you're putting your head through a tight turtleneck and like
Speaker 1: you just can't get that turtleneck over your head, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean, Like your foreskin just like won't
Speaker 1: come down over the head of your penis.
Speaker 2: I think we'll use that video and post that on
Speaker 2: social media that acts out as an s.
Speaker 1: I was acting out putting on a total neck for everybody.
Speaker 1: It's like when the neck hole is too tight, and
Speaker 1: I'm done with that visual. So they decided it's seven
Speaker 1: months to circumcise these twins, and the regular doctor like
Speaker 1: wasn't there, So it was like a different doctor who
Speaker 1: decided to use Instead of like a traditional snip snip,
Speaker 1: this doctor decided to use an uncommon method called electrocauterization,
Speaker 1: which is like using destroying tissue with like a little
Speaker 1: heat conducting probe that is heated by electric current, and
Speaker 1: the machine malfunctioned. And some articles say that this procedure
Speaker 1: completely burned off his penis. Some say like that it
Speaker 1: was just burned beyond repair, but safe to say it
Speaker 1: was a catastrophic malfunction.
Speaker 2: Of this of this machinery. Why would you choose to
Speaker 2: do an experiment on a baby dick?
Speaker 1: Like understand, I don't know, I mean maybe yeah, And
Speaker 1: I hope that they got some money or something out
Speaker 1: of that at least. I mean, it's like so traumatizing.
Speaker 1: They decided since since Bruce went first, they decided not
Speaker 1: to do Brian. Brian went on to just his pomoses
Speaker 1: cleared itself up on its own. So that's even harder
Speaker 1: to hear that it would have just kind of worked
Speaker 1: itself out. So now they have this little seven month
Speaker 1: old baby with a severely injured penis, and they bring
Speaker 1: him to Johns Hopkins in Baltimore in nineteen sixty seven,
Speaker 1: so he's like one and a half years old at
Speaker 1: this point, and that is where they meet John Money,
Speaker 1: who is a New Zealand psychologist. This is absolutely who
Speaker 1: doctor Blair is based off of. This man is an
Speaker 1: extremely well known psychologist, sexologist, and author who is known
Speaker 1: for his research into sexual identity and the biology of gender.
Speaker 1: And what people say about him was that he thought
Speaker 1: he was thought to be brilliant and arrogant, which is
Speaker 1: like duh. He was like a Harvard graduate of course.
Speaker 1: So Money is one of the first researchers to publish
Speaker 1: theories on the influence of the societal constructs of gender.
Speaker 1: He introduced the term's gender identity, used to describe a
Speaker 1: person's innate sense of maleness or femaleness. He introduced the
Speaker 1: term gender role and sexual orientation, and also popularized the
Speaker 1: term paraphilia, which is basically any sexual interests that's not
Speaker 1: just like heteronormative, like boobs are hot, penises are hot,
Speaker 1: I like regular sex, like being into footstuff, being into bondage,
Speaker 1: any of that falls under the paraphilia umbrella. Now what's
Speaker 1: interesting is this guy we're going to find out is
Speaker 1: very evil, but he also but he discovered so much.
Speaker 1: I mean, he discovered a lot. And he also he
Speaker 1: also was when it came to transpatients. He was very like,
Speaker 1: whatever they say is what they say. He was like,
Speaker 1: if they feel that they are male, they are male,
Speaker 1: and they should be afforded the medical procedures to allow
Speaker 1: them to have whichever physical manifestation of that that they
Speaker 1: would like. So he was like progressive in some ways,
Speaker 1: but in other ways. He had this theory of gender neutrality,
Speaker 1: which they talk about in the episode, that gender identity
Speaker 1: develops primarily as a result of social learning from early childhood,
Speaker 1: but that it could be changed at any point with
Speaker 1: appropriate not at any point at an early point, with
Speaker 1: appropriate behavioral intervention. So he was all in on this
Speaker 1: nurture opposed to nature thing.
Speaker 2: I just feel like I said this during the episode thing,
Speaker 2: but it's like he's contradicting himself.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think in some ways.
Speaker 2: He is, yeah constantly where it's like if someone says
Speaker 2: they're this, they're this, and that's the way it is,
Speaker 2: and you're born in the sexual identity, but also you
Speaker 2: can change it fully by nurture, Like I just I
Speaker 2: don't get it. And his last name is money. I
Speaker 2: don't know how anyone trusted him.
Speaker 1: Ever. Doctor Money does sound like a rapper, So doctor
Speaker 1: Money believed that a penis could not be replaced, but
Speaker 1: that a functional of vaginant could be constructed surgically. And
Speaker 1: that's where we get this it's easier to dig a
Speaker 1: hole than a pull phrase like that phrase is used
Speaker 1: in a lot of intersex surgeries and studies about intersex surgeries,
Speaker 1: like up through the seventies because of kind of this
Speaker 1: guy's work. So he claimed that Rymer would be much
Speaker 1: more likely to achieve a successful functional sexual maturation as
Speaker 1: a girl than as a boy. And like, isn't it
Speaker 1: convenient that this theory he has these two identical twin
Speaker 1: boys where there's a perfect control being Brian, and there's
Speaker 1: a perfect one to experiment on being Bruce, just fall
Speaker 1: into his lap when they come to Johns Hopkins. So
Speaker 1: these boys are like the key to proving his theories correct.
Speaker 1: So Money really convinced Bruce's parents to turn him into
Speaker 1: a female via sex reassignment surgery. So at the age
Speaker 1: of twenty two months, which is like my daughter's basic
Speaker 1: exact age right now, Bruce became Brenda. It started with
Speaker 1: a bilateral orchidectomy in which his testes were removed surgically
Speaker 1: and a rudimentary volva was fashioned, and then they just
Speaker 1: gave this child these surgeries and then he just continued
Speaker 1: to see Brenda annually for consultations. Okay, so I sort
Speaker 1: of knew this was all the real part of the
Speaker 1: from the episode. I had no idea this next part
Speaker 1: was real. Much like in Identity, Money did force these
Speaker 1: twins to rehearse sexual acts involving thrusting movements with Brenda
Speaker 1: playing the bottom role, and like Rymer said that as
Speaker 1: a child he had to get down on all fours
Speaker 1: and his brother would get behind him with his crotch
Speaker 1: up against him, and that Money forced him into like
Speaker 1: sexual positions with his legs spread and Brian on top
Speaker 1: of him. It's just really, really crazy. They were forced
Speaker 1: to take their clothes off and engage in genital inspections,
Speaker 1: and on at least one occasion they said he took
Speaker 1: photographs up of these of these children doing these activities,
Speaker 1: and his rationale was that the same as the doctor
Speaker 1: in the in the episode, that this was childhood's sexual
Speaker 1: rehearsal play and was important for the healthy adult gender identity.
Speaker 1: What I don't understand is like, even if you're going
Speaker 1: to give Brenda, try to do this sort of reprogramming
Speaker 1: on this child. Can you not show sexual photos or whatever?
Speaker 1: Like why does it have to be their brother is
Speaker 1: involved in it, Like that's what's so that has to
Speaker 1: be so confusing and traumatic for everyone involved, and I'm
Speaker 1: sure it was for them. Bruce slash Brenda was given
Speaker 1: estrogen during adolescence that started breast development. And Money would
Speaker 1: like report on the progress of the twins, like releasing
Speaker 1: reports and sort of publishing pieces calling it the John
Speaker 1: slash Jone case. So a few google parts of this
Speaker 1: is like the John Slash Jone case is how it's
Speaker 1: referred to because they're identity was not known for a
Speaker 1: really long time. And Money actually wrote stuff like the
Speaker 1: child's behavior is so clearly that of an active little
Speaker 1: girl and so different from the boyish ways of her
Speaker 1: twin brother. But that's like what Money was writing because
Speaker 1: it satisfied his narrative of his study. The notes from
Speaker 1: some of his students, who were like his lab students,
Speaker 1: said that the follow up visits were only once a year.
Speaker 1: Rymer's parents routinely lied to the staff about the success
Speaker 1: of the procedure, and then later his twin brother, Brian
Speaker 1: developed schizophrenia. Why did the parents lie. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's like they just were like,
Speaker 1: got to keep this up, got to keep this up,
Speaker 1: you know, like we have to keep this is the
Speaker 1: only way. We can't go back now. I think was
Speaker 1: their thought a lot. And I get into that a
Speaker 1: little bit later when they do appear on Oprah. So
Speaker 1: Brenda and I don't I don't even want to use
Speaker 1: a female pronoun here, because Brenda does eventually take back
Speaker 1: her masculine identity and it goes by David. So Brenda
Speaker 1: is it said, behaved in a strictly masculine fashion, would
Speaker 1: rip off dresses that his mother would sew for him.
Speaker 1: When he saw his father shaving, he wanted a raizor to.
Speaker 1: He liked toy guns, trucks, and he didn't like sewing
Speaker 1: machines and barbies. And when he fought with his brother,
Speaker 1: it was clear that she was stronger, which is kind
Speaker 1: of a little bit why I think Lucas was the killer.
Speaker 1: He liked running and fighting and climbing, and he hated
Speaker 1: playing with dolls, and he had no friends and was
Speaker 1: very lonely because his twin was sort of embarrassed of him,
Speaker 1: like as I guess a lot of people are embarrassed
Speaker 1: with their sisters. But people called him cavewoman and stuff.
Speaker 1: So it's really like this traumatic, traumatic childhood that he's having,
Speaker 1: So that's hardly a success. I don't know why this
Speaker 1: doctor is writing, oh wow, she's just having an amazing life,
Speaker 1: because the kid is not. Reimer also hated going to
Speaker 1: visit doctor Money and by thirteen was experiencing suicidal ideation
Speaker 1: and told his parents that he would take his own
Speaker 1: life if they made him see doctor Money. And at fourteen,
Speaker 1: his parents broke down and told him about his past,
Speaker 1: so same as the same age as in this episode
Speaker 1: of SVU, and instead of being angry, David was relieved.
Speaker 1: He said, for the first time, everything made sense and
Speaker 1: I understood who and what I was. And that's that's
Speaker 1: from an Archives of Pediatric and Adolescent Medicine report that
Speaker 1: they did on them. He decided to assume a male
Speaker 1: gender identity, calling himself David. He underwent treatment to reverse
Speaker 1: the reassignment, including testosterone injections, double mistectomy, and a folloplast.
Speaker 1: The grueling surgeries spun him into some periods of depression
Speaker 1: and twice caused him to attempt suicide, and he spent
Speaker 1: a lot of months living alone in a cabin in
Speaker 1: the woods. And then I read that at twenty two
Speaker 1: he prayed to God for the first time in his life,
Speaker 1: begging for the chance to be a husband and a father.
Speaker 1: And this is just an interesting physical thing about it.
Speaker 1: It was reported that the phallic reconstruction was only partially successful,
Speaker 1: but that David could have sexual intercourse and experience orgasm.
Speaker 1: So that's I think that's pretty successful in terms of
Speaker 1: the things that penises are for. So he eventually, so
Speaker 1: he got a job. He was working in a slaughterhouse,
Speaker 1: and he was sort of really happily adjusted to his
Speaker 1: life as a man, so people are saying. And then
Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety he married a woman named Joan Fontaine
Speaker 1: and adopted her three children. So in the early nineties,
Speaker 1: early to mid nineties, things are going pretty good for David.
Speaker 1: You know, he's taking back control of his life. And
Speaker 1: then his case comes to international attention when an academic
Speaker 1: sexologist named Milton Diamond persuaded him to tell his story. Diamond,
Speaker 1: who are these man?
Speaker 4: I know?
Speaker 1: Money, Diamond, It's like, And then Steve Annuity met him
Speaker 1: and no, so then Milton Diamond what annuity means? That's money?
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't even either, really, So, Milton
Speaker 1: Diamond is an academic sexologist who persuaded Rhymer to allow
Speaker 1: him to tell his story to dissuade other physicians from
Speaker 1: doing this kind of treatment. Like this did not work.
Speaker 1: This is a field experiment. Let's get the word out,
Speaker 1: you know, because at this point it's the Jones slash
Speaker 1: John case. It's completely anonymous. No one knows that this
Speaker 1: is like a real story, or no one knows who
Speaker 1: the real the story behind the real people. So he
Speaker 1: went public with his story, and then an author named
Speaker 1: John Cola Pinto published a widely disseminated and influential account
Speaker 1: of his whole story in Rolling Stone magazine in December
Speaker 1: of nineteen ninety seven. This article won awards, and I
Speaker 1: cannot find it fucking anywhere. It's just not on the internet.
Speaker 1: I don't know what. I don't know why it's not archived.
Speaker 1: It's like Rolling Stone, what's going on anyway? He Later,
Speaker 1: Cola Pinto wrote a whole book about David, a New
Speaker 1: York Times best selling biography called As Nature Made Him
Speaker 1: The Boy who was raised as a girl that came
Speaker 1: out in two thousand, in which Cola Pinto described basically
Speaker 1: how everything in Money's reports is wrong. How like when
Speaker 1: he was living as Brenda Reimer did not identify as
Speaker 1: a girl. He was ostracized and bullied by peers. He
Speaker 1: no dresses or hormones ever made him feel like a girl.
Speaker 1: And that was this big book that came out, and
Speaker 1: he did get a lot of profits from the book.
Speaker 1: David did make profits from the book. So I liked
Speaker 1: hearing about that. So for thirty years after Money's initial report,
Speaker 1: this became like the common thought in this field that
Speaker 1: gender is malleable, and like that you can if you
Speaker 1: get if you get it done within a certain window.
Speaker 1: Like sometimes they tried to say afterwards that the reason
Speaker 1: it didn't work was because they waited until twenty two months,
Speaker 1: Like if they had done it within the first year,
Speaker 1: or maybe within the first eighteen months or something like that,
Speaker 1: it would have worked better. I mean, I disagree, but.
Speaker 2: Yeah, how is four months gonna fully change everything?
Speaker 1: Well, I mean maybe not eighteen months, but like maybe
Speaker 1: if you do it within a year before they even
Speaker 1: start realizing a lot of things about boy versus girl,
Speaker 1: you know, like, so yeah, his his view was that
Speaker 1: sex reassignment was the correct decision, and it resulted in
Speaker 1: thous of sexual reassignments for intersex people and probably people
Speaker 1: that had accidents where their penises were damaged. And Money's
Speaker 1: experiments actually proved the opposite, exactly what you said, Like,
Speaker 1: it proved the persistence of one's inborn sense of gender,
Speaker 1: which does back up like today's more prevalent thinking that
Speaker 1: trans people have an innate, inborn sense of gender, whether
Speaker 1: it matches what their genitalia is or not, like that
Speaker 1: doesn't matter and you cannot change it. So the book
Speaker 1: about Rhymer actually did influence several medical practices and reputations,
Speaker 1: and it made the It actually accelerated the decline of
Speaker 1: sex reassignment and surgery for unambiguous X Y infants with
Speaker 1: micro penis or other congenital malformations or penile loss in infancy.
Speaker 1: So him telling his story did help this become less prevalent,
Speaker 1: and that's great. You know. His book also described these
Speaker 1: psychotic childhood therapy sessions and heavily implied that Money ignored
Speaker 1: or concealed all the evidence that Rhymer's reassignment to female
Speaker 1: was not going well. Money stopped publicly commenting on the
Speaker 1: case in nineteen eighty and never acknowledged that the experiment
Speaker 1: was anything but a glowing success. And then this article
Speaker 1: that I read was talking about Money was like, he
Speaker 1: may have failed patients by encouraging them to conform to
Speaker 1: a binary of understanding of sex that he himself didn't
Speaker 1: entirely believe, like they were saying, he wasn't even sure
Speaker 1: that his idea was valid because at the time he
Speaker 1: played a significant role in helping transgender people in the
Speaker 1: early days of medical intervention find support to live in
Speaker 1: their affirmed gender. His position on trans people was that
Speaker 1: if you were a biological male and you believed yourself
Speaker 1: to be female, that was that was done and done.
Speaker 1: It was such an important idea to you as a
Speaker 1: person that it could not be contradicted. So this man
Speaker 1: is very confusing because he has these progressive views.
Speaker 2: And it's ego.
Speaker 1: It's all ego.
Speaker 2: It's like, yeah, because I mean, I went to college
Speaker 2: a long time ago. I was a sociology major, and
Speaker 2: like so much of experiments and ethics and all that,
Speaker 2: and having like a hypothesis is like you take the
Speaker 2: evidence as it is. You can't manipulate information to fit
Speaker 2: your hypothesis.
Speaker 1: It's like totally unethical.
Speaker 2: I'm really shocked that no medical boards or the psychic
Speaker 2: whatever psychology overhead people didn't go after him. And he
Speaker 2: is molesting children, right, Well, that's that's so nuts too
Speaker 2: of it. Yeah, I just I feel like he put
Speaker 2: these kids through more damage than could have ever happened
Speaker 2: to them if he just left them alone.
Speaker 4: No.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, I don't know if there's like I mean child
Speaker 1: in endangerment or like trauma, Like he definitely subjected these
Speaker 1: children to trauma for sure.
Speaker 2: We're making siblings touch each other naked and take photos
Speaker 2: of them, like, how is that not child pornography?
Speaker 4: I know.
Speaker 1: So basically, what this article about doctor Money said was
Speaker 1: that like he believed that people had the right to
Speaker 1: their own gender identity and that they had the right
Speaker 1: to the medical means to be whoever you want to be.
Speaker 1: So it's just it's very confusing. I really want to
Speaker 1: hate this man, and then he has ideas that are
Speaker 1: good as well, but I think ultimately he's bad. You
Speaker 1: can't treat children like little like they're having a little
Speaker 1: sex play every week in therapy that's really disgusting.
Speaker 2: And did you watch the documentary Three Identical Strangers?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 2: Yeah, did you watch it on a flight's No?
Speaker 1: I saw it in the theater, Lisa. I saw it
Speaker 1: in the theater.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: When I saw it, I got movie pass and was like,
Speaker 1: I'm seeing everything and I went to go see that
Speaker 1: movie first, and then Movie Past folded a month later.
Speaker 2: But that reminds me of that where it's like, you
Speaker 2: can't just take children and decide to do experiments on them. Hello,
Speaker 2: doctor Mangola, like you guys, fucking Nazis.
Speaker 1: You don't get to fuck with people. People have equated
Speaker 1: him in some articles to doctor Mangola. Okay, good, I'm glad.
Speaker 1: I'm not the only one. I'm glad I said his name, right.
Speaker 1: I was kind of a Now, did you nailed that?
Speaker 1: You nailed it?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 1: And it's really you know, I watched the Okay. So
Speaker 1: this story has a very sad ending because in two
Speaker 1: thousand and two, Brian Rhymer, David's twin brother, overdosed of antidepressants,
Speaker 1: which many people think was a suicide, and it's believed
Speaker 1: to be I guess, not totally proven. And then in
Speaker 1: two thousand and four, in the wake of his brother's death,
Speaker 1: his wife asking him for a separation, and him getting
Speaker 1: scammed in an investment scammed by some sketchball named Gary Perch.
Speaker 1: David Rhymer took his own life as well in two
Speaker 1: thousand and four. So both of these boys died within
Speaker 1: two years of one another. But like, despite all the
Speaker 1: hardships and everything he went through, David never blamed his parents.
Speaker 1: Like he told the Cola Pinto, the guy who wrote
Speaker 1: the book about him, and he said, mom and dad
Speaker 1: wanted this to work so that I would be happy.
Speaker 1: That's every parent's dream for their child. And I couldn't
Speaker 1: be happy for my parents. I had to be happy
Speaker 1: for me. You can't be something that you're not. You
Speaker 1: have to be you. And I watched I'm like getting
Speaker 1: teary though. It's like it's just so sad because the
Speaker 1: parents really were trying to do the best thing for
Speaker 1: him and they got swindled, and they got swindled, they
Speaker 1: let it and like, so I watched this Oprah clip
Speaker 1: with David Rhymer and he's just talking about his story
Speaker 1: and talking about and the mom and Oprah's like saying
Speaker 1: to the mom, so so you were just you just
Speaker 1: bought into what this doctor said. She said, yeah, and
Speaker 1: then once we listened to the doctor, we couldn't turn
Speaker 1: we couldn't go back, you know, like there was no
Speaker 1: turning back from that. So it was just really it
Speaker 1: was really sad to You can watch this clip on
Speaker 1: YouTube of David with his mom on Oprah and just
Speaker 1: sort of like talking about how truly it was all
Speaker 1: done in the name of living a normal life. So
Speaker 1: it's like when you were talking about like, oh, they
Speaker 1: the parents do all this stuff just like so their
Speaker 1: kids don't get bullied, it was like, yeah, it was bullying.
Speaker 1: It was like having a normal sex function, having a
Speaker 1: wife and a family, and like you know, which is
Speaker 1: all obviously very heteronormative goals anyway, Like who knows, you
Speaker 1: could have been gay, but like everything that was done
Speaker 1: was done with the idea that what is going to
Speaker 1: make him have the most happy and smooth life, and
Speaker 1: it really it did not work out that way.
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, I definitely don't blame the parents for wanting
Speaker 2: the best, but sometimes you just gotta see what happens
Speaker 2: and not force something.
Speaker 1: No, for sure, But I think also, like you're a
Speaker 1: Mennonite couple from Winnipeg, Canada and a Harvard educated New
Speaker 1: Zealand renowned sexologist is like, this is the solution. I
Speaker 1: don't know. I could see myself being like, Okay, what
Speaker 1: are we gonna do? Yeah, I've been to Winnipeg.
Speaker 5: I also think it's important to note this is the
Speaker 5: late nineteen sixties. There's no internet. This is such a
Speaker 5: different time. This isn't today, So who knew what they
Speaker 5: were talking about back then?
Speaker 2: You trust the doctor, you go to the doctor. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm just disgusted by so many things that he broke,
Speaker 2: like trust, I'm he's I just that's so fucked up.
Speaker 1: I know when he died in two thousand and six,
Speaker 1: I believe, and he just never had to really answer
Speaker 1: for any of this, Like he just I think everything,
Speaker 1: he hit everything behind the name of science and then
Speaker 1: never had to you know. It's like it's like when
Speaker 1: that doctor in the episode is like, I'm going to
Speaker 1: call the medical review board on you, It's like, how
Speaker 1: dare you I'm going to call the medical review board
Speaker 1: on you? Like you're doing this insane shit. But like
Speaker 1: I guess when you're like in the medical field, you
Speaker 1: can you can excuse a lot as like, no, this
Speaker 1: is research. No, this is part of the process, Like
Speaker 1: and you know, maybe you convinced judges that it's not criminal.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: And in Three Identical Strangers, one of the triplets ends
Speaker 2: up committing suicide as well. Yes, like you can't fuck
Speaker 2: with people's beings and lives and siblings like that for
Speaker 2: in the name of science, Like, what the fuck?
Speaker 1: It's really upsetting. That's a great call, Lisa. You guys,
Speaker 1: everyone should watch Three Identical Strangers. It's a wild documentary.
Speaker 2: I gave a little bit away, but it's still just
Speaker 2: the story is pretty fucked up.
Speaker 1: The story is very compelling.
Speaker 2: It just goes against what therapists or doctors or science
Speaker 2: is supposed to do. It's like your selfish need to
Speaker 2: be some famous person is.
Speaker 1: And it's kind of like with Freud, where.
Speaker 2: It's like I can't believe how much of his stuff
Speaker 2: we used today, Like this guy came up with gendering
Speaker 2: to all of these things, and it's like, it's just
Speaker 2: shocking how one fucking fool from New Zealand is created
Speaker 2: so much of our language and point of view.
Speaker 1: Who did this? But I don't know. It is very later,
Speaker 1: and there was like some research that was saying that
Speaker 1: like feminists, like radical feminists, were really pro money his
Speaker 1: ideas because they were like, this just proves that women
Speaker 1: are nurtured into being quote unquote the weaker sex, or like,
Speaker 1: you know, we're just as strong as men biologically, we're
Speaker 1: just as good, and it's like we get changed from
Speaker 1: society or whatever. And I was like, I don't know,
Speaker 1: I don't know what that feminism today would be. Well,
Speaker 1: that's the whole thing.
Speaker 2: You want science, right, you're supposed to not have these
Speaker 2: like your like your opinions should not impede the science.
Speaker 1: Like science is supposed to be objective.
Speaker 2: You should not have I don't know if it's different
Speaker 2: for psychologists, but that's the fucking point is. Yeah, you
Speaker 2: go into it with a blank slate and you take
Speaker 2: the evidence, and that's what happens. You don't manipulate shit
Speaker 2: to prove your own theory. That's an egomaniac. Let's fucking
Speaker 2: dig up his body, all right, that's what I want.
Speaker 2: I want a fucking trial.
Speaker 1: All right, Well, Lisa and I are going to go
Speaker 1: grab some shovels and we'll be right back with our
Speaker 1: special guests. Okay, now it is time for our guest interview.
Speaker 1: I am beyond excited to have this next Tony nominated
Speaker 1: actress on our podcast. You guys have seen her in
Speaker 1: Fried Green Tomatoes, Benny and June, some kind of wonderful.
Speaker 1: She is amazing. She has her own sustainable production facility
Speaker 1: in the Hudson Valley in New York, which is very
Speaker 1: impressive called up River Studios, and she has a multiple
Speaker 1: episode arc on SVU and you all know her as
Speaker 1: doctor Rebecca Hendricks. Please check out our interview with Mary
Speaker 1: Stuart Masterson.
Speaker 2: You did reveal before we started you have a donkey,
Speaker 2: and I didn't think i'd be jealous, but I am.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a mini donkey, so she's just like a
Speaker 4: giant dog.
Speaker 1: And I got a mini donkey yeah.
Speaker 4: And two bunnies and a dog, yes, a new wow,
Speaker 4: five month old dog that's as big as my eleven
Speaker 4: year old.
Speaker 1: He's going to be massive, So that's insane.
Speaker 2: Have you seen the viral videos of dogs riding donkeys?
Speaker 4: No, I can't believe I've missed that.
Speaker 1: You might have a bright future in TikTok. We are
Speaker 1: so excited to talk to you, like I'm just like
Speaker 1: a huge fan from all of your movies that you've
Speaker 1: been in. But then obviously your iconic five episode arc
Speaker 1: on SVU is what we're here to talk to you about.
Speaker 1: I feel like, I don't know. Your character just seemed
Speaker 1: like such a big deal. I truly was like, it's
Speaker 1: only five episodes. I thought you were in like fifteen episodes,
Speaker 1: because every time they bring you back, like that last
Speaker 1: time they brought you back, it was like a reveal
Speaker 1: that you were there.
Speaker 4: You know, Yeah, that very that very special episode where
Speaker 4: I'm such a good shrink that I a cured stabler
Speaker 4: in like fifteen minutes without a comb break. I mean
Speaker 4: that's like, thanks, I should wear a cape and if
Speaker 4: only therapy we're that effective that fast.
Speaker 1: It's great.
Speaker 2: Well. I also loved your line at the end. It
Speaker 2: was so dramatic where he's like should we captain? Craigan
Speaker 2: asks like should we separate them? And You're like, only
Speaker 2: if you want to lose the two best detectives you've
Speaker 2: ever had.
Speaker 4: I'll be honest, I don't remember anything, guys. It's really
Speaker 4: like another lie time.
Speaker 1: I know, and everybody has lives, but we obviously remember everything,
Speaker 1: and everyone.
Speaker 2: Well, we wanted to share that we've been in a
Speaker 2: few episodes, but you're the one episode Identity with the
Speaker 2: Twins is our number one viewer requested episode to cover
Speaker 2: really four hundred and eighty plus episode.
Speaker 1: No, we get like a message a day that's like,
Speaker 1: you have to do the one with the Twins. Like,
Speaker 1: so everybody is obsessed with this episode. That's amazing, certainly topical.
Speaker 1: I mean no, yes, now I feel like it's really
Speaker 1: really an interesting It's it's interesting to go back to
Speaker 1: and just see the way the show is talking about
Speaker 1: like gender identity and stuff like that. So yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: because you must have had no idea back then that
Speaker 1: like this episode of television was going to resonate with
Speaker 1: so many people into going on ten or fifteen years later.
Speaker 1: I forget what year is this episode?
Speaker 4: I know, god, what was it, two thousand and four something.
Speaker 1: Like that, Yeah, fifteen years Yeah.
Speaker 4: No, I certainly did not think of that at all.
Speaker 4: And in fact, I just I just always loved Marishka
Speaker 4: as a person, and ironically she's so incredible this brand
Speaker 4: of drama. But she is one of the funnier people
Speaker 4: I've ever met, and so people say she's hilarious. She's
Speaker 4: so funny, she's so sharp and such a lovely human.
Speaker 4: So I was like, yeah, let's do this thing. And
Speaker 4: also for all actors. At the time, I was mostly
Speaker 4: in the theater in the city. I was doing a
Speaker 4: Broadway musical right before that, and so it's the actor's
Speaker 4: annuity to be in a law and order show, you know,
Speaker 4: it's like the best. So but yeah, no, I didn't.
Speaker 4: I never thought that it would be a fifteen year
Speaker 4: legacy on an episode of TV.
Speaker 1: When they reached out to you about this character, did
Speaker 1: they know that it was going to be sort of
Speaker 1: like a like a you'd come back a few more
Speaker 1: times or did you think it was a one off?
Speaker 4: I think they it was going to be a recurring part,
Speaker 4: but only a few episodes. I think it was an
Speaker 4: initially I think it was three, and then it just
Speaker 4: you know, there were a couple more, I think. But yeah,
Speaker 4: so it wasn't it wasn't going to be a long
Speaker 4: term thing. But but it was fun being there, you know.
Speaker 1: And who's to say it was your last episode? I mean,
Speaker 1: my god, it's still going Stabler's coming back, so they
Speaker 1: might need you to come back and sort of review
Speaker 1: how they're doing now.
Speaker 4: It's still funny. My family watches the voice together because
Speaker 4: it is so much fun. And they were running the
Speaker 4: promos for that you know what as.
Speaker 1: It organized, right, and my voice is on that promo.
Speaker 4: No, and my husband said, wait, that's you.
Speaker 1: That's your voice.
Speaker 4: And I was like, wait, what do you mean? He said,
Speaker 4: you know, do you think you and Sablers make good partners?
Speaker 4: I think here's the line? Yes, and and I was like,
Speaker 4: oh my gosh, you're right, that is me.
Speaker 1: And then you're like, I got to get SAG after
Speaker 1: all on the phone, because hello, you're in that promo
Speaker 1: and your husband is on SVO.
Speaker 4: Yeah, oh such a bad guy. Yeah, we're always like
Speaker 4: purper Vic. You know, he's been both, but mostly I've
Speaker 4: been you know, the doctor.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I wonder do you think there's any chances
Speaker 1: that she'll come back.
Speaker 4: No one has reached out. I would not say. I
Speaker 4: would say the chances are zero.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't say that though, because you know, somebody in
Speaker 1: casting has reached out and tell us that they listen
Speaker 1: to this podcast, so oh so, and it's not zero.
Speaker 1: If they come knocking, yeah, I would say I would
Speaker 1: put it at a strong three percent. That's very strong.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'll bring my donkey. It'll be great.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. Sometimes they go up into the Hudson
Speaker 1: River Valley for the show. They they'll go see like
Speaker 1: a Jewish sect, a community, or like you know, they'll
Speaker 1: sort of venture up state sometimes. Why not. So, how
Speaker 1: what was it like working with Christopher Maloney, Because I
Speaker 1: mean we were talking about how Stabler like famously hates shrinks.
Speaker 1: I mean they're like there's all these like moments in
Speaker 1: the show where they're like, you really need to talk
Speaker 1: to someone and he's like, I don't need any of
Speaker 1: that garbage. And then like your character comes on and
Speaker 1: suddenly he's like, you know, the psychiatric profession is very admirable.
Speaker 1: Like suddenly he loves like shrinks, and there's definitely some
Speaker 1: tension between you two.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I think one of the more amazing things about doctor
Speaker 4: Rebecca Hendrix was not just that she and a live
Speaker 4: I met at the Academy and that she completed that,
Speaker 4: as you know, part of her life, but she also
Speaker 4: went to medical school and also a psychiatric residency and
Speaker 4: was also the head of Bellevue by the time I
Speaker 4: was at the time in my thirties. I was like, wow,
Speaker 4: and in private practice, you know, so I was like,
Speaker 4: I'm extremely successful.
Speaker 1: Yes, and you're a very an overachiever. Yeah.
Speaker 4: No, I think probably it's you know, the knowledge, the
Speaker 4: deep knowledge of law enforcement in the Doctor Hendrix's background
Speaker 4: might have made them a little more willing to trust
Speaker 4: that I understood the job. But yeah, no, Chris is great.
Speaker 4: Chris is a wonderful actor, very very supportive to guests,
Speaker 4: you know, always, and that's it's a terrible thing usually
Speaker 4: to be a guest, because you know, you come in
Speaker 4: and that the train is moving and you jump on,
Speaker 4: and sometimes people are just too tired to really give
Speaker 4: a crap and be kind and thoughtful of guests.
Speaker 1: You know. And they were there.
Speaker 4: Everybody was just really great and really nice. And no
Speaker 4: matter who you are, where you come from, it's very
Speaker 4: disconcerting to come onto a show as a guest, especially
Speaker 4: if you're going to recur and supposed to have an
Speaker 4: actual character of it, you know, instead of just sort
Speaker 4: of come in and exit with the plot. So he
Speaker 4: was really good. He was really, really really good.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he I mean being able to be like in
Speaker 1: a flirty situation with Elliott Stabler is pretty much like
Speaker 1: the lifetime goal of all of our listeners. So you've
Speaker 1: accomplished it, and very horny listeners. Yeah, they're really very
Speaker 1: horny for Stabler for sure, and I mean a few
Speaker 1: other characters as well. But yeah, but you and Olivia
Speaker 1: had such a like tension too, like where it was
Speaker 1: like you knew each other from the academy, but like
Speaker 1: she was mad at you for leaving, for leaving like
Speaker 1: the profession and.
Speaker 4: Frenemies and yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, And it could be
Speaker 4: it could be strange to have someone get attention from Stabler.
Speaker 1: No, I don't know, there's a whole universe where people,
Speaker 1: you know, create these relationships between these characters that don't exist.
Speaker 1: We're not super into that. But he has a wife
Speaker 1: the entire time, but in your specific episodes, his wife
Speaker 1: and him have separated. He kind of flirting with you,
Speaker 1: and she's like, I get you're on the rebound, but
Speaker 1: why don't you leave it at home? Like she's mad
Speaker 1: at him for flirting with you.
Speaker 4: Good. If you're a therapist, you know to welcome the transference.
Speaker 4: Whatever gets your your patient to open up and trust you.
Speaker 4: That was that was That was all intentional.
Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, did you do? Did you like when you're
Speaker 1: about to play like a five episode or a few
Speaker 1: episodes arec on a show as a psychiatrist, Like do
Speaker 1: you speak to a psychiatrist? Do you do any research
Speaker 1: before him?
Speaker 4: Oh? Yes, I would consider the seven years of therapy
Speaker 4: good research.
Speaker 1: Ah. Same, I'm ready for my role as a psychiatrist
Speaker 1: as well.
Speaker 4: I'll have all the psychiatrists to follow, you know.
Speaker 1: Can I ask a really random question, where does the
Speaker 1: mini donkey sleep? Does it go in the house or
Speaker 1: does it have like a little barn or what?
Speaker 4: Yes, she has she has a run in shed and
Speaker 4: she has her own quarter of an acre really with
Speaker 4: them with vents around it. She's got a really good
Speaker 4: situation and we you know, clean up after, bring her
Speaker 4: her food, and she doesn't really go anywhere.
Speaker 1: She's having a great quarantine.
Speaker 4: She's good. She's totally good, no difference to her. She's like,
Speaker 4: it's exactly the same as it was. I see them more,
Speaker 4: which is good.
Speaker 1: Just to ask you a couple more s V questions,
Speaker 1: we like to ask this one, but especially I think
Speaker 1: this is a good question for you. If you needed
Speaker 1: a detective, would you call Benson or stabler. Hmmm, that's
Speaker 1: a good one, Kara. Someone is missing, someone is something
Speaker 1: that has gone amok. Who do you call Benzoner's table are?
Speaker 2: I mean?
Speaker 4: I think I think Benson because it just you know,
Speaker 4: but you know, they really are so good together.
Speaker 1: So true. It's an impossible question.
Speaker 4: It's very hard because they you know, the yin and
Speaker 4: yang of it all. They're very good together, the emotional
Speaker 4: connection and the cerebral detachment. A logician versus the magician. No,
Speaker 4: it's hard to pick. That's Olivia though, you know, because
Speaker 4: I like no whether no founts to.
Speaker 1: I know we're not positive Rebecca Hendrix is ever going
Speaker 1: to come back. But what about you? It's now been
Speaker 1: like a decade since Rebecca Hendrix has been on and
Speaker 1: they bring people back all the time as different roles.
Speaker 1: If you could go back to SVU, would you want
Speaker 1: to play something different? Would you want to be a cop?
Speaker 1: Would you want to be a bad mom? Or like
Speaker 1: what kind of do you have? Any kind of No?
Speaker 4: I would you know what?
Speaker 1: I would?
Speaker 4: I would enjoy being on a show where I'm you know,
Speaker 4: a stablery kind of a part, like a detective or
Speaker 4: and also like all these all these hospital shows. I'm
Speaker 4: like weirdly into medical things, like I just can remember
Speaker 4: the the anatomical names for the you know, like I
Speaker 4: just like I was always like, oh, I would love
Speaker 4: to have my my script in the body of the
Speaker 4: of the fake dead, of the fake patient on the
Speaker 4: table like everybody else, and just like rattle off all
Speaker 4: this jargon that it would be so fun to be
Speaker 4: on like Grey's Anatomy or something.
Speaker 2: Wait, I didn't know people hide scripts in their fake
Speaker 2: dead bodies. That's a scoop.
Speaker 1: I feel, Oh, oh.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, how could you possibly learn all of that? I mean,
Speaker 4: they have a gurny and they just tape the dialogue
Speaker 4: to a thing sometimes because they're like wow, well or
Speaker 4: the medical consultants or whatever, we'll say sorry, that's not
Speaker 4: yeah lingo, and didn't get the script in time, and
Speaker 4: they'll switch it out to a cardiothoracic bloody blah, and
Speaker 4: they're like, I thought I was working on the GI tract.
Speaker 4: Oh well, they'll just have to know it somehow, and
Speaker 4: that's how they do it. So no, some people do that,
Speaker 4: some people don't. Some people tape the script to their
Speaker 4: scene partner's chest so they can sort of look them
Speaker 4: in the eye. I've seen everything, my gosh. Yeah, they
Speaker 4: don't have teleprompters. And it's just like, you shouldn't be
Speaker 4: looking like you're trying to remember your lines right better
Speaker 4: that you're playing the intention of the scene. If you
Speaker 4: don't know the lines better that you get the help
Speaker 4: you need.
Speaker 1: Just read them off your partner's ches.
Speaker 4: Be a hero man. Just don't make your eyes go
Speaker 4: like this left or right. That's a dead giveaway.
Speaker 1: That was just truly thrilling for me. I know that.
Speaker 1: I think Lisa, maybe you missed some of her movies
Speaker 1: in your life, but like she was such an idol
Speaker 1: to me growing up. She was like such a cool actress.
Speaker 1: And I'm like so so excited we got to talk
Speaker 1: to her.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I am kind of very super into her life.
Speaker 1: I like her hot SVU alum husband, her mini donk donk. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I love her farm life and just living it up
Speaker 2: during the pandemic. And that's a weird thing to say,
Speaker 2: but I was just very into her spirit, I would say,
Speaker 2: and her highlights.
Speaker 1: You guys didn't get to see her, but she looks amazing, No,
Speaker 1: and she looks so young, like she literally looks the
Speaker 1: same as she did, and like, you're like, I kind
Speaker 1: of get why Stabler was fishing around during a separation.
Speaker 1: But let's get into our post mortem. What did we
Speaker 1: learn from today? I mean, first of all, we learned
Speaker 1: that this episode was so close. I remember when people
Speaker 1: started requesting it, I was like, I got to check
Speaker 1: and make sure it's based on a crime. And then
Speaker 1: I was like, okay, it's based on It is based
Speaker 1: on a thing happening to this to this boy, And
Speaker 1: I just had no idea that basically the whole episode,
Speaker 1: minus Luis getting through off the roof, is identical to
Speaker 1: what happened. Yeah, I'm shocks, except for them killing the therapist.
Speaker 1: They never killed doctor Money. He died on his own.
Speaker 2: I thought it was totally gonna be an episode of
Speaker 2: ours where we talk about theories or different hodgepodges of cases.
Speaker 2: I did not anticipate just this like monster of a
Speaker 2: therapist ruining the lives of these boys and parents and
Speaker 2: taking advantage of people in distress like they did. But yeah,
Speaker 2: circumcision is so tough too, and these parents in the case,
Speaker 2: it's like they decided not to do it, and then
Speaker 2: a medical issue kind of made them do it, and
Speaker 2: then this happens. I'm sure they blame themselves. Being a
Speaker 2: parent seems hard. You want to do all the best
Speaker 2: and it's never enough. And I just can't imagine the guilt.
Speaker 2: And it's just so sad that these kids committed suicide.
Speaker 1: It's just like a real fucking bummer. Well, I think
Speaker 1: the silver lining a little bit is that David did
Speaker 1: have years of like reclaiming his identity and living as
Speaker 1: a man happily, and he did have happy times with
Speaker 1: his wife and his three adopted children. And you know,
Speaker 1: it's interesting as the conversation continues to move forward also
Speaker 1: about gender identity and stuff like that, to think about
Speaker 1: people like this who were part of the experimental front
Speaker 1: lines of it, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Or like if people are born intersex, it's like
Speaker 2: leave them alone. Why don't you just leave them alone
Speaker 2: until they can decide what to do? You know, it's
Speaker 2: like to fit into these norms that we have in
Speaker 2: society that are just lame as hell.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Also, we just want to point out we were
Speaker 1: thrilled and honored to get Mary Stewart Masterson to come
Speaker 1: on our podcast, but we did reach out to Riley McClendon,
Speaker 1: the actor, and while initially interested, he did take some
Speaker 1: time to listen to our podcast. And because he is
Speaker 1: now a man of God, he works for a church,
Speaker 1: he decided against it. And I think that's probably we're
Speaker 1: not we're not church listening material.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 1: But he did.
Speaker 2: I think he said it was like funny in a
Speaker 2: good time, but not for him.
Speaker 1: I don't think it was a full on knock of us.
Speaker 1: I think it's if your parishioners or your fellow churchgoers
Speaker 1: hear you hear us, they're like, what exactly are you
Speaker 1: getting involved in? If he is listening, we want him
Speaker 1: to know that he had one of the top one
Speaker 1: of the top ten child performances of SPU history in
Speaker 1: my opinion.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I am still curious to know how he feels
Speaker 2: about everything.
Speaker 1: Maybe you could just fill out a questionnaire.
Speaker 2: For us really quietly or something.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I need to add something.
Speaker 5: I learned that Lisa thought that that wig was good
Speaker 5: because I thought that was the worst wig SU has
Speaker 5: maybe ever had.
Speaker 1: Lindsay's wig. Yeah, Lisa, I had to go with Pan
Speaker 1: on this one. Lindsay's wig was not a good wig.
Speaker 2: No, And I didn't mention, but Mary Stuart Masterson in
Speaker 2: this episode had like red string delicate necklaces with a
Speaker 2: little shoe, a horseshoe luck charm, And I really did
Speaker 2: appreciate her delicate jewelry.
Speaker 1: It is you have a real eye for us viewedjewelry. Well.
Speaker 2: I love delicate necklaces and I love jewelry that I
Speaker 2: can see Jennifer Aniston wearing, like that's how I pick
Speaker 2: all my jewelry. If she would wear it, and she
Speaker 2: would wear that.
Speaker 1: Necklace, is this delicate gold that glints against tan skin
Speaker 1: and a bottle of vitamin water, I'll take it.
Speaker 2: I mean, is there anyone more iconic? Jenn Aniston? Get
Speaker 2: on SVU, you dumb bitch, We need you on.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, And she'd be good as like a villain,
Speaker 1: baby villain. I want her as a villain character. I
Speaker 1: don't know why, Like I could see her doing it
Speaker 1: a little bit old when she's a little bit even older,
Speaker 1: and she's one of those people that's like I paid
Speaker 1: for my grandson to do this so that nobody finds
Speaker 1: out about his indiscretions. Like we always have those characters
Speaker 1: the Angela Landsberries and like those older ladies that are
Speaker 1: like I threw money at the problem, leave me alone
Speaker 1: and hypd I pay your salary. And that's like I
Speaker 1: would love to see Jen Aniston try to take on
Speaker 1: one of those.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we need a messager sources and be
Speaker 2: like get the war.
Speaker 1: I could see her as a like a madam.
Speaker 2: Yes, all right, but let's go anything. Yeah, don't join
Speaker 2: a gang if you can avoid it.
Speaker 1: I'm sure so many on the precipice of joining a gang.
Speaker 1: Members are listening to our pond.
Speaker 2: And if you are going to join a gang, don't
Speaker 2: advertise it all over you because you'll get more caught
Speaker 2: by the cops. And if you're going to come at
Speaker 2: a crime, don't keep the weapon on you.
Speaker 1: But also it is funny too when you get arrested
Speaker 1: for a Rico crime, Go who's Rico? That is funny. Okay,
Speaker 1: So now it is time for what would sister peg do?
Speaker 1: You probably know that this is our segment where we
Speaker 1: just direct you towards a resource, a book, an article,
Speaker 1: a charitable organization research about something that we have touched
Speaker 1: on in today's episode. I thought that it would be
Speaker 1: interesting just to direct you guys all to the book
Speaker 1: that John Colopinto that I referenced in the in the
Speaker 1: true crime portion of the episode that John Colapinto wrote
Speaker 1: about David Reimer. It's called as Nature made him the
Speaker 1: boy who was raised as a girl, and we have
Speaker 1: the link in our notes, but you can get that
Speaker 1: on Amazon and on all different places. I think if
Speaker 1: you're just interested in learning a little bit more about
Speaker 1: this story, that is a great place to start because
Speaker 1: he is the guy John colpincho is the guy who
Speaker 1: got the story out there and sort of worked with
Speaker 1: David closely on telling his story. And join us.
Speaker 2: Next week we will be covering Hunting Ground season thirteen,
Speaker 2: episode fifteen. Get ready for some scary shit. Truly one
Speaker 2: of the scariest, one of the scariest. And as always,
Speaker 2: they're on Hulu Peacock. Someone tagged us on a story
Speaker 2: they went to the library and checked out SVU DVDs.
Speaker 2: So that's another way to watch the show is support
Speaker 2: your local library.
Speaker 1: Bye bye bye us up as an exactly right production.
Speaker 1: If you have compliments you'd like to give us or
Speaker 1: episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email
Speaker 1: at That's Messed Up pod at gmail dot com.
Speaker 2: Follow the podcast on Instagram at That's Messed Up Pod
Speaker 2: and on Twitter at messed Up Pod, and follow us
Speaker 2: personally at Karaklank and at Glittercheese.
Speaker 1: As always, please see our show notes for sources and
Speaker 1: more information.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much to SBU superfan and our incredible producer,
Speaker 2: Hannah Kyle Kraton.
Speaker 1: And to our sound engineer and personal hero Anali Snilson.
Speaker 2: And to Henry Koperski for our theme song, to Carly
Speaker 2: Jean Andrews for our artwork.
Speaker 1: Thanks to our executive producers Georgia Hardstar, Karen Kilgarriff, Daniel Kramer,
Speaker 1: and everybody at Exactly Right Media.
Speaker 2: Listen, subscribe, leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher,
Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts. If you're an advertiser
Speaker 2: interested in advertising on our show, go to midroll dot.
Speaker 1: Com slash ads. Done. Done