WEBVTT - Robert Hilland: Chasing Evil

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<v Speaker 1>This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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<v Speaker 2>They take the cars for processing. They go to his workplace,

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<v Speaker 2>they go to the house in Connecticut. They go through everything,

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<v Speaker 2>They find nothing.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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<v Speaker 1>in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the

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<v Speaker 1>podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career,

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<v Speaker 1>research for my many audio and book projects has taken

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<v Speaker 1>me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down

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<v Speaker 1>with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers,

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<v Speaker 1>and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true

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<v Speaker 1>crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both

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<v Speaker 1>good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the

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<v Speaker 1>unpublished details behind their stories. In nineteen ninety eight, FBI

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<v Speaker 1>agent Robert Hilland was at a dead end with a

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<v Speaker 1>cold case until he got a huge break from a

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<v Speaker 1>famous psychic named John Edward. Hilland was a skeptic, but

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<v Speaker 1>he's not anymore. They spent twenty five years solving crimes together.

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<v Speaker 1>Robert Hilland tells me the story at the center of

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<v Speaker 1>his book, Chasing Evil, Shocking Crimes supernatural forces and an

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<v Speaker 1>FBI agent's search for hope and justice. Tell me a

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<v Speaker 1>little bit about how you got into the FBI to

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<v Speaker 1>begin with. Was this a childhood dream of yours?

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<v Speaker 2>Not at all. You know. I'm a guy from Brooklyn,

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<v Speaker 2>New York, and from Jersey and I became a police

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<v Speaker 2>officer a good friend of mine and I always wanted

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<v Speaker 2>to be a cop. And next thing, you know, I

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<v Speaker 2>became this police officer in a small town in Jersey

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<v Speaker 2>called West Windsor. I really enjoyed it. I loved being

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<v Speaker 2>a cop. I was a young guy wearing a uniform.

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<v Speaker 2>Responding to was exciting. I really really enjoyed it. I

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<v Speaker 2>was there, I guess seven years, almost eight years. And

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<v Speaker 2>during the course of my career there, I had met

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<v Speaker 2>somebody who was in the FBI, a senior official who

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<v Speaker 2>knew of me from you know, local stories in the papers,

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<v Speaker 2>and started talking to me about joining the FBI. And

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<v Speaker 2>I kind of dismissed it, thinking, yeah, I don't know

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<v Speaker 2>that I want to do that, And over time I said, hey,

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<v Speaker 2>why not. You know, I really enjoyed what I did,

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<v Speaker 2>but it was a small department and I thought that

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<v Speaker 2>maybe the FBI could offer me other opportunities. I applied

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<v Speaker 2>and I went through that process and I joined the

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<v Speaker 2>FBI in nineteen ninety seven. I went through Quantico, graduated,

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<v Speaker 2>and my first assignment was the New York Field Office,

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<v Speaker 2>which was kind of home to me.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, I'm surprised when I talked to FBI former

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<v Speaker 1>FBI agents, because you're probably the sixth I've talked to,

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<v Speaker 1>maybe even you know, I've talked to more about their cases.

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<v Speaker 1>I have always made the assumption that somebody gets recruited

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<v Speaker 1>for the FBI when they have achieved some dissolving of

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<v Speaker 1>some mass of case and they get on the radar,

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<v Speaker 1>or they're in you know, Boston PD or San Francisco

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<v Speaker 1>in a bigger, you know station. But I didn't realize

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<v Speaker 1>they recruit from even really small areas. What does it

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<v Speaker 1>take to get on their radar?

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<v Speaker 2>You know, the FBI always has to evolve with the

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<v Speaker 2>newest challenges and threats that the country's facing. Right, So

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<v Speaker 2>that's going to force the FBI to recruit people that

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<v Speaker 2>are equipped to deal with those problem sets. Right. So,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, back in the day, in you know, pre

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<v Speaker 2>nine to eleven world, we were still while we were

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<v Speaker 2>focused on terrorism and counterintelligence crime was the big thing

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<v Speaker 2>for the FBI, and historically it was always former military

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<v Speaker 2>law enforcement accountants to that kind of thing, lawyers, That

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<v Speaker 2>was kind of the staple for the FBI. It has

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<v Speaker 2>now grown exponentially where we look for data scientists, We

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<v Speaker 2>look for people in the IT world, people who can

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<v Speaker 2>hack systems, people with diverse language skills, people who have

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<v Speaker 2>an ability to think like the adversaries. We're going up again,

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<v Speaker 2>So today's FBI is a lot more efficient and effective

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<v Speaker 2>than we were years ago. You have to evolve, and

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<v Speaker 2>I'm confident the FBI has and always won't do that.

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<v Speaker 1>So you get to the FBI and give me your

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<v Speaker 1>first impressions. I know you went through the training in

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<v Speaker 1>Quantico and everything. Were you just scared to death going

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<v Speaker 1>through all of this?

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<v Speaker 2>I wasn't scared of death. I think what came to

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<v Speaker 2>mind when you asked that question. It felt to me

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<v Speaker 2>like the scene of Willie Walker where they opened up

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<v Speaker 2>and it was this magical place right. I felt like

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<v Speaker 2>I was in the major leagues, like you know, like

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<v Speaker 2>major League Baseball, and now we're dealing with really significant crimes,

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<v Speaker 2>with significant adversaries and big cases and working with very

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<v Speaker 2>experienced men and women who had done some crazy phenomenal work.

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<v Speaker 2>So I was surrounded by I would argue the best

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<v Speaker 2>of the best, and I had the ability to kind

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<v Speaker 2>of be a sponge and soak in from those people

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<v Speaker 2>their lessons while taking on these new cases. So it

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<v Speaker 2>was exhilarating. As much as I love being a cop

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<v Speaker 2>and responding to calls and doing that, when I first

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<v Speaker 2>joined the FBI felt like I was playing in the

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<v Speaker 2>super Bowl. It was excited every day. I loved it.

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<v Speaker 1>So when did you become an active agent? When did

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<v Speaker 1>you get out of out of Quonaco and you're ready

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<v Speaker 1>to go? Was that ninety seven?

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, so in the ninety seven. I joined the FBI

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<v Speaker 2>in May of ninety seven, and the training was I

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<v Speaker 2>don't know, four or five months, and then I respond

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<v Speaker 2>to I report to New York five months later. Whatever

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<v Speaker 2>that was.

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<v Speaker 1>Tell me what brings you to the case that's at

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<v Speaker 1>the center of your book where you will eventually meet

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<v Speaker 1>John Edward. How far into your career does this case come?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah? So by you know, I look back and you say,

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<v Speaker 2>things don't happen by circumstance, right, nothing is by accident.

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<v Speaker 2>And my first assignment was. I was assigned to a

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<v Speaker 2>cold case homicide squad, and man, it was exciting. I

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<v Speaker 2>was working old mob cases. I was working with the NYPD,

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<v Speaker 2>some very experienced detectives and FBI agents, and those cases

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<v Speaker 2>were typically organized crime, the mob, criminal enterprise cases, and

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<v Speaker 2>those have a different flavor to them. It's I don't

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<v Speaker 2>want to say there were business, but you know, it's

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<v Speaker 2>more about power, money control, but exciting. You learn how

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<v Speaker 2>to work homicide cases and learn how to prosecute cases

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<v Speaker 2>at the federal level. So I was working at different

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<v Speaker 2>points over twenty cases at one time, and it was

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<v Speaker 2>exciting and overwhelming. But to your question, when I was

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<v Speaker 2>a cop in Jersey back in nineteen ninety one, October fourth,

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<v Speaker 2>this man came into the police station by the name

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<v Speaker 2>of John Smith, and it was a Friday night. He

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<v Speaker 2>came around ten o'clock. I was getting off shift and another

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<v Speaker 2>officer was coming on and the guy came in to

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<v Speaker 2>report that his wife was missing. Her name was Betty

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<v Speaker 2>frant I had nothing to do with the initial case.

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<v Speaker 2>I just remember when him coming in, kind of a

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<v Speaker 2>nerdy looking guy. I saw the officer taking initial report.

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<v Speaker 2>As that case unfolded, it became very evident from the

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<v Speaker 2>detectives you started looking at case, it's something nefarious had

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<v Speaker 2>likely happened to her.

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<v Speaker 1>First, I guess, tell me about both of these people.

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<v Speaker 1>What did you all know about John Smith? And then

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<v Speaker 1>you know how he met Betty and how they got

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<v Speaker 1>married and.

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<v Speaker 2>All of that. So she went by her name was

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<v Speaker 2>Betty Fran, but she went by he re named Fran

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<v Speaker 2>a friend. Was ten years older than John. They had

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<v Speaker 2>met a year earlier in Florida. John was working as

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<v Speaker 2>an engineer and a company that produced commercial aircraft engines.

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<v Speaker 2>She was an admin, secretary receptionist. Her personality she was

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<v Speaker 2>very extroverted. Friendly. People were drawn to her because of

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<v Speaker 2>her positiveness and she just she exuded that. And she

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<v Speaker 2>meets John. John is the opposite of her. He's a

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<v Speaker 2>quite introvert, doesn't have much in the way of friends

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<v Speaker 2>or social like you would say. He was an awkward

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<v Speaker 2>kind of guy. They meet, he asked her on a date,

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<v Speaker 2>and believe or not, within the month of them going

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<v Speaker 2>on that first date, they get married. John was her

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<v Speaker 2>fifth husband, although she married one of her husbands twice

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<v Speaker 2>or really her fourth husband, and John told her that

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<v Speaker 2>he had never been married that he was a bachelor.

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<v Speaker 2>He had never been previously married. So life was good

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<v Speaker 2>when they first got married. They're living in Florida. They

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<v Speaker 2>bought a modest home. It was a new home which

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<v Speaker 2>literally next door to her elderly mother. Fran's life was good.

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<v Speaker 2>She had her social friends, she had her workplace friends.

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<v Speaker 2>Life was great for her. And she's got this new

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<v Speaker 2>husband and she really enjoyed everything. And then ultimately John

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<v Speaker 2>his contract expires and now he's looking for a job.

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<v Speaker 2>He's out of work. Fast forward, he's offered a job

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<v Speaker 2>by one of his former bosses who's now up in

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<v Speaker 2>New Jersey, a place called Keyesby, New Jersey, working at

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<v Speaker 2>a industrial plant that made concrete products. So now John

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<v Speaker 2>uproots and takes Fran all their new furnitures. She had

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<v Speaker 2>bought all of her belongings put in storage, and now

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<v Speaker 2>they moved to New Jersey, a place that she's never

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<v Speaker 2>been and doesn't know anybody.

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<v Speaker 1>Away from her elderly mother too, right away from her

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<v Speaker 1>support system.

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<v Speaker 2>She's very close with her daughter named Dee Dee Deanna

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<v Speaker 2>who at the time was living in Houston, Texas, half

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<v Speaker 2>sister in Indiana named Sherry, and that they were kind

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<v Speaker 2>of her support systems. So now here is Fran up

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<v Speaker 2>in New Jersey trying to establish herself, and she's having

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<v Speaker 2>a hard time. She's gotten no no system up there.

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<v Speaker 2>She's struggling to find a good job. Meanwhile, John, he's

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<v Speaker 2>one of those guys that he goes to work early

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<v Speaker 2>in the morning, comes home late at night. And then

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<v Speaker 2>add to it, he told her that he owned the

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<v Speaker 2>house in Milford, Connecticut, and he had tenants living up there,

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<v Speaker 2>and every weekend he'd go up to this house because

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<v Speaker 2>allegedly the house was in disrepair. So now here is

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<v Speaker 2>this poor lady Fran with this new man, and she's

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<v Speaker 2>got nothing going on. He's never at home, so she's

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<v Speaker 2>growing more and more frustrated around there. One year anniversary,

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<v Speaker 2>Fran is very frustrated with the circumstance. Nothing seems to

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<v Speaker 2>make sense to her. He's rarely at home, and he's

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<v Speaker 2>sensing that she's not happy, so he says, listen, let's

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<v Speaker 2>go on. We never really had a kind of a honeymoon,

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<v Speaker 2>so let's go on vacation. So he takes her away

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<v Speaker 2>to the Pocones, which is in Pennsylvania, a couple hours

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<v Speaker 2>from where they lived, and while they're there. On the

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<v Speaker 2>first day, Fran suffers a fall, legitimate fall. She fell

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<v Speaker 2>coming out of the tub and she broke her hip,

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<v Speaker 2>all legitimate. But now she goes to a hospital, she

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<v Speaker 2>has surgery, and now she's transported back to that condo

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<v Speaker 2>in New Jersey. She can't walk. She's just had major surgery,

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<v Speaker 2>and she's droning and meanwhile nothing has changed. She's lying

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<v Speaker 2>in bed and pain, can't walk. He's gone all day.

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<v Speaker 2>On weekends, he's going up to this house in Milford, Connecticut.

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<v Speaker 2>Nothing makes sense. She's living in a furniture home with

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<v Speaker 2>none of her belongings. The only thing she has is

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<v Speaker 2>the clothing and her personal effects. But she's more and

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<v Speaker 2>more frustrated, and she's expressing these frustrations with her family.

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<v Speaker 2>Her daughter says, hey, Mom, I'll come pick you up,

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<v Speaker 2>come out and live with us in Texas. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>don't worry about this her. In those conversations with a sister,

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<v Speaker 2>her sister says, we listen, if you're not happy, maybe

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<v Speaker 2>you should make the list of things that you want

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<v Speaker 2>to talk to him about and confront him with these

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<v Speaker 2>with these issues. And Fran does that, so you know

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<v Speaker 2>the list consisted of things like, Hey, I want to

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<v Speaker 2>go see the place you work. I've ever been there.

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<v Speaker 2>I want to go to your house in Milford, Connecticut.

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<v Speaker 2>I want to go to the storage and see all

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<v Speaker 2>my furniture that's in storage. I want to be a

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<v Speaker 2>part of the financial the bank. I need these things.

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<v Speaker 2>And she persisted on that. And the last time she

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<v Speaker 2>was seen alive was Saturday, September twenty eighth, nineteen ninety one.

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<v Speaker 2>And what was significant about that day was it had

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<v Speaker 2>been I don't know a month or more since her accident,

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<v Speaker 2>and she was getting cabin fever. She wanted to get out,

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<v Speaker 2>and she spoke on the phone with her daughter, and

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<v Speaker 2>she said she was excited because John was going to

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<v Speaker 2>take her to a Toys r Us if she ruarned

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<v Speaker 2>the Toys r Us stores. They were going to buy

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<v Speaker 2>a gift for Franz's grandson, Deanna's son. And so she's

0:11:28.520 --> 0:11:30.640
<v Speaker 2>talking to her daughter saying, I can't wait to get out.

0:11:30.640 --> 0:11:32.319
<v Speaker 2>It's going to be great. And John walks through the

0:11:32.360 --> 0:11:34.760
<v Speaker 2>door and says, I just went shopping and he comes

0:11:34.800 --> 0:11:37.000
<v Speaker 2>in with a gift. He had no intention of taking her.

0:11:37.040 --> 0:11:40.760
<v Speaker 2>So there's some kind of disagreement that happens, and Franz says, Tona,

0:11:40.840 --> 0:11:42.679
<v Speaker 2>I'll talk to you later, I love you, and hangs up,

0:11:42.720 --> 0:11:45.040
<v Speaker 2>and that's the last time anybody heard from her. The

0:11:45.120 --> 0:11:47.600
<v Speaker 2>last time she has seen is that same day. She

0:11:47.640 --> 0:11:51.440
<v Speaker 2>has seen leaving the condo using crutches, and there was

0:11:51.800 --> 0:11:54.480
<v Speaker 2>another couple walking into the building as she is leaving

0:11:55.000 --> 0:11:58.199
<v Speaker 2>with John. One of the people that saw her was

0:11:58.240 --> 0:12:00.640
<v Speaker 2>a paramedic and he described her face is red and

0:12:00.679 --> 0:12:03.480
<v Speaker 2>blotchy and soul and almost like she had been hit

0:12:03.600 --> 0:12:06.240
<v Speaker 2>or was crying or something. And that's the last time

0:12:06.280 --> 0:12:09.160
<v Speaker 2>anybody ever saw of her. Now you have to understand

0:12:09.480 --> 0:12:12.120
<v Speaker 2>her family was in daily contact with her, giving her

0:12:12.559 --> 0:12:16.880
<v Speaker 2>encouraging words of support and conversation. After September twenty eighth,

0:12:17.000 --> 0:12:19.760
<v Speaker 2>their calling and the phone's not being picked up day

0:12:19.800 --> 0:12:23.000
<v Speaker 2>after day after day after day. Finally, I think it's

0:12:23.000 --> 0:12:26.280
<v Speaker 2>Wednesday or the following week. The daughter calls John at

0:12:26.320 --> 0:12:28.960
<v Speaker 2>work and he answers the phone and she says, John,

0:12:29.000 --> 0:12:32.880
<v Speaker 2>where's my mother? And he offers some hesitation, and then

0:12:32.880 --> 0:12:34.560
<v Speaker 2>he says, I thought she was with you, and said,

0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:36.079
<v Speaker 2>what do you mean she's with me? She couldn't walk,

0:12:36.080 --> 0:12:37.920
<v Speaker 2>she couldn't drive a car. What are you talking about.

0:12:38.360 --> 0:12:41.960
<v Speaker 2>None of this makes sense, And she says, John, something's

0:12:41.960 --> 0:12:43.240
<v Speaker 2>wrong her. You need to go to the police. And

0:12:43.320 --> 0:12:45.160
<v Speaker 2>John says, you know your mother wouldn't want the police

0:12:45.160 --> 0:12:48.320
<v Speaker 2>to get involved. You know she'll show up. I'm sure

0:12:48.360 --> 0:12:50.640
<v Speaker 2>she was homesick and either went down to Florida or

0:12:50.640 --> 0:12:53.560
<v Speaker 2>went somewhere. But nothing is adding up. And to the

0:12:53.559 --> 0:12:57.000
<v Speaker 2>credit of the daughter and the sister, they basically called

0:12:57.080 --> 0:12:59.040
<v Speaker 2>him on that Friday and said, look, if you don't

0:12:59.040 --> 0:13:02.360
<v Speaker 2>go to the police today and report mom missing, we're

0:13:02.440 --> 0:13:04.600
<v Speaker 2>flying to New Jersey and we're going to report her missing.

0:13:04.640 --> 0:13:06.800
<v Speaker 2>We're telling they need to talk to you. So that's

0:13:06.800 --> 0:13:11.920
<v Speaker 2>how the investigation ensued or started. As it unfolded, it

0:13:11.960 --> 0:13:14.280
<v Speaker 2>was determined that that house up in Milford, Connecticut, he

0:13:14.360 --> 0:13:16.199
<v Speaker 2>had a common law wife up there that he was

0:13:16.280 --> 0:13:18.520
<v Speaker 2>hiding from her. All of her stuff that was in

0:13:18.559 --> 0:13:20.640
<v Speaker 2>storage was not in storage, but he gave it to

0:13:20.640 --> 0:13:23.640
<v Speaker 2>that of the wife. So all of his lies started

0:13:23.640 --> 0:13:27.280
<v Speaker 2>to unravel. They did a consensual phone call in which

0:13:27.480 --> 0:13:30.760
<v Speaker 2>the woman up in Connecticut, her name was Sheila. Sheila

0:13:30.800 --> 0:13:32.560
<v Speaker 2>pleased with him on the phone and says, John, look,

0:13:32.600 --> 0:13:34.920
<v Speaker 2>I love you, I'll stay with you, but we got

0:13:34.960 --> 0:13:36.920
<v Speaker 2>to work this out. I've got an affidavity if the

0:13:36.920 --> 0:13:38.839
<v Speaker 2>search for and says you were married to another woman

0:13:38.920 --> 0:13:42.400
<v Speaker 2>named Janice Hartman. Who is she? She's confronting him and

0:13:42.480 --> 0:13:44.559
<v Speaker 2>she pleased with him. She says, let's do the right thing.

0:13:45.080 --> 0:13:48.440
<v Speaker 2>Let's help the police find Fran and find Janice. And

0:13:48.480 --> 0:13:50.640
<v Speaker 2>he says it's too late to help them. Now, it's

0:13:50.679 --> 0:13:53.120
<v Speaker 2>too late for that. He admits that he's applied to

0:13:53.160 --> 0:13:55.640
<v Speaker 2>the police. He made a lot of incriminating statements, but

0:13:55.760 --> 0:13:58.240
<v Speaker 2>nothing that rose to the level where they can bring

0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:02.160
<v Speaker 2>a case against him, but certainly suspicious. And then as

0:14:02.200 --> 0:14:05.040
<v Speaker 2>the police spoke with the family members of Fran, John

0:14:05.080 --> 0:14:08.760
<v Speaker 2>had represented to them that he had never previously been married.

0:14:09.160 --> 0:14:12.080
<v Speaker 2>But when John spoke to the investigators, he reported he

0:14:12.160 --> 0:14:14.960
<v Speaker 2>was married to woman named Janis Hartman years ago in Ohio.

0:14:15.360 --> 0:14:19.640
<v Speaker 2>So there's a huge inconsistency. The investigation continues and they

0:14:19.640 --> 0:14:23.240
<v Speaker 2>identified Janice Hartman as his first wife, who disappeared in

0:14:23.320 --> 0:14:27.520
<v Speaker 2>nineteen seventy four in Ohio under almost identical circumstances, never

0:14:27.560 --> 0:14:29.800
<v Speaker 2>to have been seen again. So now that got a

0:14:29.800 --> 0:14:33.080
<v Speaker 2>guy married to two women, both who disappeared, no bodies,

0:14:33.160 --> 0:14:35.440
<v Speaker 2>no physical evidence, and it's very frustrating.

0:14:38.760 --> 0:14:40.920
<v Speaker 1>Well, I have a lot of questions, I guess to

0:14:41.040 --> 0:14:45.400
<v Speaker 1>start with. You know, obviously John is very, very controlling,

0:14:45.600 --> 0:14:48.880
<v Speaker 1>and he's isolated her and coerced her into staying and

0:14:48.920 --> 0:14:52.880
<v Speaker 1>she's pretty well trapped. Is there a money motivation? Also?

0:14:53.000 --> 0:14:56.200
<v Speaker 1>I don't know if I remember, did Fran have money?

0:14:56.480 --> 0:14:59.080
<v Speaker 2>There was not money involved. There was not a financial

0:14:59.120 --> 0:15:01.560
<v Speaker 2>motive in this case. It was no insurance policy, nothing

0:15:01.600 --> 0:15:04.480
<v Speaker 2>of that nature. I think if you had ask me,

0:15:04.960 --> 0:15:08.880
<v Speaker 2>John always lived separate lives. He compartmentalized, like he led

0:15:08.920 --> 0:15:11.480
<v Speaker 2>a life where this was the life he showed publicly,

0:15:11.560 --> 0:15:13.360
<v Speaker 2>but then he always had a secret life, and the

0:15:13.480 --> 0:15:17.240
<v Speaker 2>secret life involved mistresses, all kinds of crazy, and he

0:15:17.320 --> 0:15:20.640
<v Speaker 2>kept those worlds apart. And when those worlds come together,

0:15:20.720 --> 0:15:22.240
<v Speaker 2>that's going to be a problem. And I think what

0:15:22.360 --> 0:15:25.560
<v Speaker 2>happened in these women's cases, they started bringing those worlds

0:15:25.560 --> 0:15:27.080
<v Speaker 2>together and he had to control that.

0:15:27.560 --> 0:15:30.160
<v Speaker 1>Tell me what you know about Janice. Did you go

0:15:30.280 --> 0:15:32.560
<v Speaker 1>missing in seventy four or they were married in seventy four?

0:15:32.920 --> 0:15:34.800
<v Speaker 2>Maybe they got married in seventy four, forgive me, it's

0:15:34.800 --> 0:15:37.040
<v Speaker 2>been a while now, but in the seventies.

0:15:36.800 --> 0:15:38.960
<v Speaker 1>A good ten years though, right, yeah.

0:15:39.200 --> 0:15:42.520
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, And much like fran You know, because I

0:15:42.920 --> 0:15:46.560
<v Speaker 2>through the investigation, I interviewed so so many people. Janis

0:15:46.760 --> 0:15:51.000
<v Speaker 2>was this vibrant, extroverted personality. Everybody loved her. When I

0:15:51.040 --> 0:15:53.280
<v Speaker 2>would say, Hey, tell me about Janis, they would light up,

0:15:53.320 --> 0:15:55.200
<v Speaker 2>they would smile, and they would say, Janis was the

0:15:55.240 --> 0:15:58.120
<v Speaker 2>life of the party, the one that everybody gravitated to.

0:15:58.560 --> 0:16:01.520
<v Speaker 2>The similarities between the women or were remarkable. You could

0:16:01.520 --> 0:16:04.720
<v Speaker 2>see it, and I think that people would say, I know,

0:16:04.760 --> 0:16:08.120
<v Speaker 2>people would say, I never quite understood why this beautiful,

0:16:08.120 --> 0:16:10.880
<v Speaker 2>attractive woman would hook up with this guy. They were opposites,

0:16:11.800 --> 0:16:14.560
<v Speaker 2>you know. So, but John had this thing, and the

0:16:14.560 --> 0:16:17.040
<v Speaker 2>best way I can describe it, he had this ability

0:16:17.160 --> 0:16:20.560
<v Speaker 2>to whether it was it the workplace or social situation,

0:16:21.120 --> 0:16:23.400
<v Speaker 2>he could kind of survey the people around him, with

0:16:23.480 --> 0:16:26.640
<v Speaker 2>the women particularly, and he could kind of figure out

0:16:26.680 --> 0:16:29.240
<v Speaker 2>the one that was kind of off to herself, or

0:16:29.280 --> 0:16:32.280
<v Speaker 2>he would identify, I don't want to say a higher riskpectum,

0:16:32.280 --> 0:16:35.520
<v Speaker 2>but in effact that's what they were, and speaking with them,

0:16:35.760 --> 0:16:38.560
<v Speaker 2>he would identify the things in their life that was missing,

0:16:38.640 --> 0:16:41.240
<v Speaker 2>that was lacking. So for some women through the years,

0:16:41.720 --> 0:16:44.840
<v Speaker 2>it was financial, for some, it was religion. For someone

0:16:45.040 --> 0:16:47.560
<v Speaker 2>was love, for some of it was sex. He became

0:16:47.640 --> 0:16:50.280
<v Speaker 2>those things because when I talked to all these women

0:16:50.320 --> 0:16:52.680
<v Speaker 2>over the years who knew him, were my relationships with him?

0:16:52.720 --> 0:16:55.120
<v Speaker 2>They would say, Asian Hill, And you don't understand. When

0:16:55.120 --> 0:16:58.160
<v Speaker 2>I met John Smith, it was like God had heard

0:16:58.240 --> 0:17:01.240
<v Speaker 2>my prayers and send him to me. He's a chameleon.

0:17:01.280 --> 0:17:05.119
<v Speaker 2>He's that guy that can just He's adept at playing people.

0:17:05.160 --> 0:17:05.960
<v Speaker 2>He's very good at that.

0:17:06.280 --> 0:17:11.880
<v Speaker 1>What were the red flags that corresponded between Janesis family

0:17:12.280 --> 0:17:15.119
<v Speaker 1>and Fran's family. You must have seen an overlap of

0:17:15.200 --> 0:17:18.320
<v Speaker 1>people's impressions of him, you know, who were outside of

0:17:18.320 --> 0:17:21.280
<v Speaker 1>the marriage and could see without these rose colored glasses

0:17:21.280 --> 0:17:22.120
<v Speaker 1>that the women had.

0:17:22.480 --> 0:17:24.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think in both cases it's fair to say

0:17:24.960 --> 0:17:29.120
<v Speaker 2>that the family members the friends question how were they

0:17:29.119 --> 0:17:31.560
<v Speaker 2>with him? It didn't make sense to them. They were

0:17:31.560 --> 0:17:35.000
<v Speaker 2>attractive women, they weren't they weren't dumb. A term that

0:17:35.280 --> 0:17:38.280
<v Speaker 2>kept coming up was they wondered if the women felt

0:17:38.280 --> 0:17:40.760
<v Speaker 2>sorry for him, because he could come off like this

0:17:40.840 --> 0:17:42.560
<v Speaker 2>guy that you would want to feel sorry for. He

0:17:42.640 --> 0:17:45.560
<v Speaker 2>had like this mousey kind of thing. So they wondered,

0:17:45.640 --> 0:17:47.000
<v Speaker 2>you know, is out why they were with him? But

0:17:47.640 --> 0:17:50.040
<v Speaker 2>outsiders looking at them, who know both women said, you

0:17:50.080 --> 0:17:53.440
<v Speaker 2>know my mom or Janie. They had everything going for them.

0:17:53.440 --> 0:17:56.960
<v Speaker 2>They had this energy about them, and the connection between

0:17:57.000 --> 0:17:58.600
<v Speaker 2>them and John didn't seem to make sense.

0:17:59.160 --> 0:18:01.879
<v Speaker 1>Was he friendly with the families or did he have

0:18:01.920 --> 0:18:04.000
<v Speaker 1>any kind of coreer Did anybody like him in the

0:18:04.000 --> 0:18:05.160
<v Speaker 1>family other than the women?

0:18:05.480 --> 0:18:08.280
<v Speaker 2>No, no, no. I think the family members and friends

0:18:08.359 --> 0:18:10.640
<v Speaker 2>saw that he was a con He was a con man.

0:18:11.080 --> 0:18:14.720
<v Speaker 2>He had this over exaggerated sense of self. He would

0:18:14.760 --> 0:18:18.600
<v Speaker 2>tell these stories that just never added up about the

0:18:18.600 --> 0:18:20.640
<v Speaker 2>things he had done in his life through the years.

0:18:20.680 --> 0:18:22.960
<v Speaker 2>When I would ask people tell me about John Smith,

0:18:23.640 --> 0:18:25.640
<v Speaker 2>it was like they were talking about one hundred different

0:18:25.720 --> 0:18:28.560
<v Speaker 2>John Smith. And I would say, what did John do

0:18:28.680 --> 0:18:30.840
<v Speaker 2>for a living? Here's some of the things I heard. Well.

0:18:30.920 --> 0:18:35.040
<v Speaker 2>John worked as an engineer. He built aircraft engines. He

0:18:35.080 --> 0:18:37.720
<v Speaker 2>was an undercover FBI agent. He worked for the CIA.

0:18:38.440 --> 0:18:41.840
<v Speaker 2>He worked for a company that interpreted the Dead Sea scrolls.

0:18:42.240 --> 0:18:45.439
<v Speaker 2>He was an archaeologist. There was one story that he

0:18:45.560 --> 0:18:48.800
<v Speaker 2>claimed that he installed the turbo charger at the Indy

0:18:48.880 --> 0:18:51.600
<v Speaker 2>five hundred race where some guy named Andy granat Telly

0:18:51.680 --> 0:18:53.880
<v Speaker 2>won in the sixties. John would have been like ten

0:18:53.960 --> 0:18:56.800
<v Speaker 2>years old when this happened, but he told these elaborate

0:18:56.840 --> 0:19:00.480
<v Speaker 2>stories to make himself look and feel important, and I

0:19:00.600 --> 0:19:04.280
<v Speaker 2>think I think some people believed him and thought, Wow,

0:19:04.520 --> 0:19:06.520
<v Speaker 2>this guy's amazing, and a lot of people said, this

0:19:06.560 --> 0:19:08.199
<v Speaker 2>guy's this guy's not honest.

0:19:08.480 --> 0:19:11.399
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Well, now I want to know about what you

0:19:11.440 --> 0:19:13.640
<v Speaker 1>all know about John Smith? Is that his real name.

0:19:13.680 --> 0:19:15.880
<v Speaker 2>First of all, his name is John David Smith. Yes,

0:19:15.920 --> 0:19:16.640
<v Speaker 2>that's his true name.

0:19:16.840 --> 0:19:18.719
<v Speaker 1>Tell me about him. What did you all figure out

0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:20.679
<v Speaker 1>about the way he grew up and all of that.

0:19:21.520 --> 0:19:24.359
<v Speaker 2>So he was born and raised in Ohio. His mother

0:19:24.440 --> 0:19:27.359
<v Speaker 2>was Grace. She's passed now. John's father's name was Carl.

0:19:27.720 --> 0:19:30.440
<v Speaker 2>When John was I think less than two years old,

0:19:30.480 --> 0:19:33.399
<v Speaker 2>his mother became pregnant with Michael, which would be John's

0:19:33.440 --> 0:19:37.359
<v Speaker 2>brother and the father, Carl realized that he could not

0:19:37.920 --> 0:19:41.040
<v Speaker 2>live with Grace. I hate to sound so crass about it,

0:19:41.080 --> 0:19:43.760
<v Speaker 2>but Grace had some issues. I don't know if there

0:19:43.760 --> 0:19:47.840
<v Speaker 2>are mental health issues, emotional issues. I think she had

0:19:47.880 --> 0:19:51.480
<v Speaker 2>experienced some trauma early in her life, and her personality

0:19:51.520 --> 0:19:53.600
<v Speaker 2>as far as living in these grandios life with these

0:19:53.600 --> 0:19:56.720
<v Speaker 2>stories was much like John. So when she was pregnant

0:19:56.720 --> 0:19:59.960
<v Speaker 2>with Michael, father Carl enlists I think it was during

0:20:00.040 --> 0:20:02.680
<v Speaker 2>the Korean War or something or Vietnam, and to get

0:20:02.720 --> 0:20:04.280
<v Speaker 2>away from her and divorced.

0:20:04.080 --> 0:20:05.639
<v Speaker 1>He enlisted in the army.

0:20:06.080 --> 0:20:10.520
<v Speaker 2>Yes, well, okay, so Michael was born. John's grandparents, which

0:20:10.520 --> 0:20:13.200
<v Speaker 2>would be Grace's parents, really raised the kids with Grace.

0:20:13.440 --> 0:20:15.199
<v Speaker 2>I would say they were poor. They lived in this

0:20:15.320 --> 0:20:17.399
<v Speaker 2>It was like Maybury, very small town. They kind of

0:20:17.400 --> 0:20:20.320
<v Speaker 2>grew their own crops. They ran a small gas station,

0:20:20.640 --> 0:20:23.080
<v Speaker 2>go over pile, kind of two pump gas station with

0:20:23.520 --> 0:20:27.520
<v Speaker 2>a little garage there. They struggled, but they got by.

0:20:28.600 --> 0:20:32.200
<v Speaker 2>I think my thoughts on the matter now, Grace was

0:20:32.240 --> 0:20:36.320
<v Speaker 2>always motivated by material things and financial game. I think

0:20:36.359 --> 0:20:39.639
<v Speaker 2>Grace was looking for a man in her life, and

0:20:39.680 --> 0:20:42.600
<v Speaker 2>I think she started dating men and ultimately she remarried.

0:20:43.280 --> 0:20:45.680
<v Speaker 2>And she married a man named Sam sam Mull who

0:20:46.040 --> 0:20:49.399
<v Speaker 2>just by circumstance, he was a survivor of the concentration

0:20:49.480 --> 0:20:52.000
<v Speaker 2>camps as a young boy. Sam was Sam was a

0:20:52.080 --> 0:20:56.040
<v Speaker 2>very successful businessman in Ohio. He developed real estate, townhomes,

0:20:56.040 --> 0:20:59.600
<v Speaker 2>apartment complexes. He was very successful. So Grace marries him

0:20:59.600 --> 0:21:02.800
<v Speaker 2>and over she goes from Povery to drive a Mercedes Benz.

0:21:03.200 --> 0:21:05.919
<v Speaker 2>John up until that point was always kind of like

0:21:05.960 --> 0:21:08.359
<v Speaker 2>the man of the house. He did have a strange

0:21:08.400 --> 0:21:11.640
<v Speaker 2>relationship with his mother, nothing to suggest it was sexual

0:21:11.640 --> 0:21:14.439
<v Speaker 2>and nothing of that nature, but it was kind of

0:21:14.440 --> 0:21:16.800
<v Speaker 2>like this Anthony Perkins thing where he would refer to

0:21:16.840 --> 0:21:19.760
<v Speaker 2>his mother and she spoke to him like he was

0:21:19.800 --> 0:21:22.880
<v Speaker 2>an adult. So I think it was that dynamic going on.

0:21:23.359 --> 0:21:26.879
<v Speaker 2>Poor Michael. Michael was never treated very well by the family.

0:21:27.520 --> 0:21:29.760
<v Speaker 2>He was really kind of taking advantage of and really

0:21:29.800 --> 0:21:33.679
<v Speaker 2>never taken seriously. And then ultimately Sam and Grace have

0:21:33.760 --> 0:21:37.120
<v Speaker 2>another child named Steven, who was born years later. So

0:21:37.160 --> 0:21:41.800
<v Speaker 2>that's John's upbringing. He graduates high school. He ran track

0:21:41.840 --> 0:21:44.399
<v Speaker 2>in high school. He was a good student, very smart,

0:21:45.240 --> 0:21:48.000
<v Speaker 2>kind of nerdy. He went to college for one semester

0:21:48.080 --> 0:21:50.320
<v Speaker 2>Ohio State, and it's unclear if he dropped out or

0:21:50.320 --> 0:21:53.879
<v Speaker 2>failed out, but he never completed college. He worked as

0:21:53.880 --> 0:21:56.560
<v Speaker 2>a handyman. He worked all these different jobs. But John

0:21:56.720 --> 0:21:59.399
<v Speaker 2>was a con So John would create resumes where he

0:21:59.720 --> 0:22:03.280
<v Speaker 2>had an engineering degree from Ohio State in aeronautics. So

0:22:03.400 --> 0:22:05.959
<v Speaker 2>his whole resume, his whole background when he on his

0:22:06.000 --> 0:22:09.200
<v Speaker 2>resume was a lie. Everything about his experience was a lie.

0:22:09.720 --> 0:22:11.880
<v Speaker 2>But he could pull it off. He had this ability

0:22:12.040 --> 0:22:14.399
<v Speaker 2>he was a very smart guy in some ways. You know,

0:22:14.480 --> 0:22:16.399
<v Speaker 2>his bosses that I talked to would say, hey, he

0:22:16.480 --> 0:22:18.760
<v Speaker 2>was a great worker. He had the ability to kind

0:22:18.760 --> 0:22:20.720
<v Speaker 2>of look at a machine or something that was working

0:22:20.760 --> 0:22:22.600
<v Speaker 2>and kind of take it apart and then put it

0:22:22.640 --> 0:22:24.800
<v Speaker 2>back together better than it was. So he had that

0:22:24.880 --> 0:22:27.560
<v Speaker 2>kind of ability, and he had the ability to sell

0:22:27.640 --> 0:22:29.800
<v Speaker 2>himself as more than he was. And then so when

0:22:29.840 --> 0:22:32.280
<v Speaker 2>I pick it up, I've got to go through twenty

0:22:32.280 --> 0:22:34.840
<v Speaker 2>five years of investigative efforts and now try to shake

0:22:34.880 --> 0:22:38.200
<v Speaker 2>out new opportunities, which wasn't easy. So that was quite

0:22:38.200 --> 0:22:38.880
<v Speaker 2>an undertaking.

0:22:39.240 --> 0:22:42.120
<v Speaker 1>Now between the time that you picked up the case,

0:22:42.119 --> 0:22:45.840
<v Speaker 1>when you were at the FBI and when John first

0:22:45.880 --> 0:22:50.440
<v Speaker 1>stepped in to the police station and said, Frans missing,

0:22:50.640 --> 0:22:51.760
<v Speaker 1>what is that time period?

0:22:52.240 --> 0:22:54.920
<v Speaker 2>So he reports her October fourth of nineteen ninety one,

0:22:55.400 --> 0:22:56.920
<v Speaker 2>I get involved in nineteen ninety eight.

0:22:57.240 --> 0:23:00.679
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so seven years is he still with the common

0:23:00.720 --> 0:23:01.520
<v Speaker 1>law wife or no?

0:23:01.960 --> 0:23:05.879
<v Speaker 2>No, When everything unfolded, she said I'm out of here.

0:23:06.000 --> 0:23:08.560
<v Speaker 2>She left, but worse yet, and it's a great question.

0:23:08.960 --> 0:23:12.280
<v Speaker 2>He disappeared. The investigators had no idea where he was.

0:23:12.320 --> 0:23:14.000
<v Speaker 2>He was last known to be in Ohio, I think

0:23:14.040 --> 0:23:16.560
<v Speaker 2>in nineteen ninety five. I think he was selling these cars.

0:23:16.880 --> 0:23:19.320
<v Speaker 2>He had something to do with his family's business. Sam

0:23:19.359 --> 0:23:22.360
<v Speaker 2>had died, but he was in the wind. Nobody knew

0:23:22.359 --> 0:23:25.040
<v Speaker 2>where he was. They lost touch with him. So now

0:23:25.080 --> 0:23:27.640
<v Speaker 2>I've got a case a guy named John Smith. There's

0:23:27.680 --> 0:23:30.400
<v Speaker 2>no bodies nobody knows what this guy is. And if

0:23:30.440 --> 0:23:32.280
<v Speaker 2>you don't already know this, John Smith is the most

0:23:32.320 --> 0:23:34.879
<v Speaker 2>common name in the United States. And this is before

0:23:34.920 --> 0:23:38.840
<v Speaker 2>the days of technology, where those searches were more manual

0:23:38.880 --> 0:23:41.120
<v Speaker 2>than they are today, more paper driven. So finding him

0:23:41.160 --> 0:23:42.080
<v Speaker 2>was quite a task.

0:23:45.280 --> 0:23:47.560
<v Speaker 1>Let me ask you about the error is happening here.

0:23:47.640 --> 0:23:51.399
<v Speaker 1>So the era one that we're talking about is, you know,

0:23:51.480 --> 0:23:55.280
<v Speaker 1>the seventies, to find Janice, and because he could have

0:23:55.359 --> 0:23:57.520
<v Speaker 1>just said, listen, we got into a fight, she took off.

0:23:57.680 --> 0:23:59.320
<v Speaker 1>She's not dead. I don't know where she is. How

0:23:59.320 --> 0:24:01.520
<v Speaker 1>would you be able to figured that out? What would

0:24:01.600 --> 0:24:03.720
<v Speaker 1>be You know, now we know if somebody's not using

0:24:03.760 --> 0:24:06.360
<v Speaker 1>their cell phone, if they're not using their bank cards,

0:24:06.800 --> 0:24:09.520
<v Speaker 1>there are keys that say this person's probably not coming back.

0:24:09.600 --> 0:24:12.680
<v Speaker 1>What would those keys be in the seventies other than

0:24:12.880 --> 0:24:15.120
<v Speaker 1>she would never leave her children or her mother's dying,

0:24:15.160 --> 0:24:17.160
<v Speaker 1>and she would never not call her mother kind of thing.

0:24:17.680 --> 0:24:19.800
<v Speaker 2>You hit it on the head. I mean the problem

0:24:19.920 --> 0:24:22.800
<v Speaker 2>with the first investigation. And please, I'm not trying to

0:24:22.800 --> 0:24:24.520
<v Speaker 2>be critical of any of the investigators. They all did

0:24:24.600 --> 0:24:27.800
<v Speaker 2>a good job. But Janie was a girl in her

0:24:27.840 --> 0:24:31.520
<v Speaker 2>early twenties who was a product of the seventies and

0:24:31.680 --> 0:24:34.080
<v Speaker 2>you know, like most young people at that time, they

0:24:34.160 --> 0:24:37.200
<v Speaker 2>were living their lives and having fun and doing their things.

0:24:37.520 --> 0:24:40.200
<v Speaker 2>Janis was one of I think seven kids. You know,

0:24:40.320 --> 0:24:42.680
<v Speaker 2>her parents were divorced, and she kind of, I don't

0:24:42.680 --> 0:24:44.959
<v Speaker 2>want to say raise herself, but she was kind of

0:24:44.960 --> 0:24:47.320
<v Speaker 2>on her own from the early age, and she would

0:24:47.400 --> 0:24:50.040
<v Speaker 2>hang out with their friends. I will tell you that

0:24:50.200 --> 0:24:53.200
<v Speaker 2>the evidence does show in the case, in the timeline

0:24:53.200 --> 0:24:55.760
<v Speaker 2>that John was starting to abuse her physically and otherwise,

0:24:55.840 --> 0:24:58.359
<v Speaker 2>and she was the one that initiated divorce, that petitioned

0:24:58.359 --> 0:25:01.480
<v Speaker 2>for the divorce, and even though what had become finalized,

0:25:01.960 --> 0:25:05.679
<v Speaker 2>he started stalking her. There's testimony to the specifics of

0:25:05.680 --> 0:25:09.240
<v Speaker 2>what he was doing and stalking her, but ultimately not

0:25:09.320 --> 0:25:11.720
<v Speaker 2>that she didn't have a family that loved her. Of course,

0:25:11.760 --> 0:25:14.600
<v Speaker 2>they were all concerned about her. But the irony is

0:25:14.600 --> 0:25:17.040
<v Speaker 2>when she disappeared. It was I think seven days after

0:25:17.040 --> 0:25:19.919
<v Speaker 2>the divorce became final. John Smith was the one that

0:25:20.000 --> 0:25:23.320
<v Speaker 2>reported her missing, and he said, my wife was missing.

0:25:23.920 --> 0:25:27.000
<v Speaker 2>I'll just say this, without trying to sound too critical,

0:25:27.640 --> 0:25:30.639
<v Speaker 2>I think the initial county Sheriff's office of Wayne County,

0:25:30.920 --> 0:25:33.280
<v Speaker 2>I don't think they took this very seriously. I think

0:25:33.320 --> 0:25:35.360
<v Speaker 2>they probably perceived it this is a young girl who

0:25:35.400 --> 0:25:37.960
<v Speaker 2>just took off, a runaway. She's a young girl. Yeah,

0:25:38.000 --> 0:25:40.240
<v Speaker 2>and so I don't know that a lot of effort

0:25:40.320 --> 0:25:42.760
<v Speaker 2>was put into it on the front end, which made

0:25:42.800 --> 0:25:44.800
<v Speaker 2>him getting away with it even easier.

0:25:45.240 --> 0:25:47.520
<v Speaker 1>Did they dig enough do you think in that initial

0:25:47.520 --> 0:25:51.480
<v Speaker 1>investigation to learn that she was the one that filed

0:25:51.800 --> 0:25:54.919
<v Speaker 1>and to learn that he had been, according two friends

0:25:54.960 --> 0:25:58.840
<v Speaker 1>or coworkers or whoever, had been abusing her, or was

0:25:58.880 --> 0:26:01.399
<v Speaker 1>it simply ugging her and she took off?

0:26:01.600 --> 0:26:03.959
<v Speaker 2>So leave it alone, guy, I'll just say there were

0:26:04.000 --> 0:26:07.280
<v Speaker 2>a lot of missed opportunities the initial investigation that should

0:26:07.280 --> 0:26:09.399
<v Speaker 2>have been done that were to include the things you

0:26:09.480 --> 0:26:12.600
<v Speaker 2>just raised. One of the things that was very important.

0:26:13.080 --> 0:26:16.000
<v Speaker 2>Janie didn't have much, but she had just bought herself

0:26:16.040 --> 0:26:17.879
<v Speaker 2>a brand new car. It was a Ford Mustang and

0:26:17.920 --> 0:26:19.680
<v Speaker 2>she'd loved this car. She was proud of. It was

0:26:19.680 --> 0:26:22.879
<v Speaker 2>the first thing she ever owned. After John reported her missing,

0:26:22.960 --> 0:26:25.840
<v Speaker 2>one of the sheriff's officers drove past a trailer where

0:26:25.880 --> 0:26:28.879
<v Speaker 2>John was living and saw the car in his driveway

0:26:29.200 --> 0:26:31.639
<v Speaker 2>after she had been reported missing. But I just think

0:26:31.680 --> 0:26:34.280
<v Speaker 2>there were a lot of missed opportunities initial case, and

0:26:34.359 --> 0:26:37.520
<v Speaker 2>I think that was realized. Fast forward to nineteen ninety

0:26:37.520 --> 0:26:41.159
<v Speaker 2>one when Fran went missing and the detectives from Jersey

0:26:41.160 --> 0:26:43.680
<v Speaker 2>contact at Ohio and they started looking at the similarities

0:26:43.680 --> 0:26:45.040
<v Speaker 2>and they went, oh, man, there's problem.

0:26:45.520 --> 0:26:49.000
<v Speaker 1>Okay, So now take me to ninety one when Fran

0:26:49.240 --> 0:26:52.760
<v Speaker 1>is missing. What is John saying. Is he saying we

0:26:52.800 --> 0:26:54.480
<v Speaker 1>got into a fight and she took off or what

0:26:54.680 --> 0:26:55.800
<v Speaker 1>is his narrative?

0:26:56.400 --> 0:26:59.960
<v Speaker 2>No, So you know, the first thing that the investigator

0:27:00.040 --> 0:27:02.400
<v Speaker 2>and Jersey did they looked in the calls for service

0:27:02.520 --> 0:27:04.879
<v Speaker 2>and there was no history of domestic violence. There was

0:27:04.960 --> 0:27:07.280
<v Speaker 2>no issues. The only issue was when she had come

0:27:07.320 --> 0:27:08.919
<v Speaker 2>back from the Pocono was there was a call for

0:27:08.960 --> 0:27:11.600
<v Speaker 2>service to help her get back up to the condo

0:27:11.680 --> 0:27:14.239
<v Speaker 2>because she was immobile. There was no history there. So

0:27:14.359 --> 0:27:16.439
<v Speaker 2>John said, listen, she's been here a year with me.

0:27:16.520 --> 0:27:19.160
<v Speaker 2>She's terribly homesick, She's having a hard time selling here.

0:27:19.240 --> 0:27:23.080
<v Speaker 2>She's got family in Florida, Texas, and Indiana. She's talked

0:27:23.080 --> 0:27:26.320
<v Speaker 2>to me repeatedly. She wasn't happy, and I strongly suspect

0:27:26.400 --> 0:27:28.880
<v Speaker 2>she she took off to go see one of them.

0:27:29.240 --> 0:27:31.840
<v Speaker 2>And then his story started changing. He started describing she

0:27:31.920 --> 0:27:34.280
<v Speaker 2>left them a note, but then there really wasn't a note.

0:27:34.560 --> 0:27:37.760
<v Speaker 2>And of course, in ninety one, before the cell phones

0:27:38.320 --> 0:27:40.760
<v Speaker 2>are what they are today, where everybody has one, what

0:27:40.800 --> 0:27:45.200
<v Speaker 2>did they do? The investigators looked at all means of transportation, planes, trains,

0:27:45.200 --> 0:27:47.159
<v Speaker 2>and automobiles. Did she buy a ticket anywhere? Did she

0:27:47.200 --> 0:27:50.440
<v Speaker 2>get a taxi anywhere? Her cars were still there. When

0:27:50.440 --> 0:27:52.480
<v Speaker 2>they went to the condo to search the condo, all

0:27:52.520 --> 0:27:54.959
<v Speaker 2>of her effects were there, all of her clothing. Friends,

0:27:54.960 --> 0:27:57.920
<v Speaker 2>she always wanted to look good, so all of her cosmetics,

0:27:57.960 --> 0:28:00.280
<v Speaker 2>all of her perfume was there. Her toothbrush was there,

0:28:00.440 --> 0:28:03.760
<v Speaker 2>her eyeglasses were there. Everything that a person would need

0:28:03.960 --> 0:28:07.560
<v Speaker 2>was still there. So it just didn't add up. And then,

0:28:07.600 --> 0:28:09.479
<v Speaker 2>of course, when they found out that John has this

0:28:09.560 --> 0:28:12.199
<v Speaker 2>other relationship with another woman in Connecticut, it just added

0:28:12.240 --> 0:28:16.560
<v Speaker 2>to the mystery and the deception. His stories just kept

0:28:16.600 --> 0:28:19.840
<v Speaker 2>falling apart. And when a story would fall apart, he

0:28:19.880 --> 0:28:21.760
<v Speaker 2>would get confronted with it, he would come up with

0:28:21.800 --> 0:28:25.080
<v Speaker 2>another story. He would keep changing the story. And I

0:28:25.080 --> 0:28:28.639
<v Speaker 2>will give credit to Fran's family, the sister and the daughter.

0:28:29.119 --> 0:28:32.879
<v Speaker 2>In the ninety one they were dogged. They traveled on

0:28:32.920 --> 0:28:35.240
<v Speaker 2>their own expense to New Jersey, spent time with him,

0:28:35.520 --> 0:28:38.800
<v Speaker 2>got flyers, tried to find clues for the police. They

0:28:39.240 --> 0:28:43.240
<v Speaker 2>I think their efforts drew more intention by the investigators

0:28:43.240 --> 0:28:44.040
<v Speaker 2>that something was wrong.

0:28:44.520 --> 0:28:46.680
<v Speaker 1>I assume they get a warrant and they get into

0:28:47.040 --> 0:28:51.800
<v Speaker 1>wherever he's staying. Are there any physical clues in ninety one, Yeah.

0:28:51.600 --> 0:28:54.680
<v Speaker 2>So they initially did a consent search and they didn't

0:28:54.720 --> 0:28:57.760
<v Speaker 2>find anything. And then so she disappears. Like I said,

0:28:57.760 --> 0:29:00.880
<v Speaker 2>September twenty eighth, I think it's April of the following year.

0:29:00.920 --> 0:29:04.440
<v Speaker 2>They execute simultaneous search forts at the condo in Jersey,

0:29:05.400 --> 0:29:08.280
<v Speaker 2>they take the cars for processing, They go to his workplace,

0:29:08.320 --> 0:29:10.320
<v Speaker 2>they go to the house in Connecticut. They go through

0:29:10.360 --> 0:29:14.560
<v Speaker 2>everything and nothing they find nothing. Wow, you look at

0:29:14.560 --> 0:29:17.280
<v Speaker 2>the timeline, and I argue that if a jury were

0:29:17.280 --> 0:29:20.680
<v Speaker 2>to be presented with the timeline and the facts, you know,

0:29:20.720 --> 0:29:22.560
<v Speaker 2>they would see what took place here? But there was

0:29:22.600 --> 0:29:25.280
<v Speaker 2>no body, and as you know, prosecutors very reluctant to

0:29:25.320 --> 0:29:27.760
<v Speaker 2>move forward out a body, so that's what happened.

0:29:27.880 --> 0:29:31.680
<v Speaker 1>I think that they seem to be more motivated. Now,

0:29:31.920 --> 0:29:34.320
<v Speaker 1>why do you think, because there's so much more digital

0:29:34.480 --> 0:29:38.000
<v Speaker 1>evidence to just say this woman's dead, she's dead. There's

0:29:38.080 --> 0:29:40.800
<v Speaker 1>no way all of these things have not been used.

0:29:41.320 --> 0:29:43.920
<v Speaker 2>I think the advent of technology plays a huge piece

0:29:43.920 --> 0:29:46.800
<v Speaker 2>in that. In cell phones and text messages and travel

0:29:46.840 --> 0:29:50.240
<v Speaker 2>records and financial records, they're able to paint a clearer

0:29:50.320 --> 0:29:54.320
<v Speaker 2>picture today than existed back in the nineties that did

0:29:54.320 --> 0:29:56.479
<v Speaker 2>not exist back then. And I would suspect or I

0:29:56.520 --> 0:30:00.440
<v Speaker 2>suspect that had those things that existed back then, probably

0:30:00.480 --> 0:30:03.120
<v Speaker 2>would have come together, but it just didn't exist at

0:30:03.120 --> 0:30:04.240
<v Speaker 2>that time because.

0:30:04.000 --> 0:30:06.240
<v Speaker 1>We were just a few years out in ninety one

0:30:06.520 --> 0:30:09.120
<v Speaker 1>from email. I remember my first year in college was

0:30:09.200 --> 0:30:12.120
<v Speaker 1>ninety three, and I think I just had really gotten

0:30:12.200 --> 0:30:13.280
<v Speaker 1>email at that point.

0:30:13.440 --> 0:30:16.240
<v Speaker 2>Right, there's a digital trail. Everybody has a digital footprint,

0:30:16.280 --> 0:30:16.960
<v Speaker 2>there's evidence.

0:30:17.080 --> 0:30:21.280
<v Speaker 1>Right, Did you have fran or Janice's voices at all,

0:30:21.480 --> 0:30:25.880
<v Speaker 1>as in letters or anything other than hearsay? I guess

0:30:25.880 --> 0:30:28.600
<v Speaker 1>from what the family was saying, what Fran there.

0:30:28.640 --> 0:30:31.400
<v Speaker 2>Was and at some point in the case, I remember,

0:30:31.680 --> 0:30:34.200
<v Speaker 2>I think a family member of Janice's gaming an old

0:30:34.280 --> 0:30:36.760
<v Speaker 2>cassette where I could hear Janis's voice, which was kind

0:30:36.800 --> 0:30:39.280
<v Speaker 2>of interesting because you know, you worked you know, I'll

0:30:39.280 --> 0:30:41.600
<v Speaker 2>tell you it's funny about this case. I had worked

0:30:41.600 --> 0:30:44.920
<v Speaker 2>so many cases they didn't feel personal for some reason.

0:30:44.920 --> 0:30:47.920
<v Speaker 2>I mean, they were intriguing, they were challenging. This one

0:30:47.960 --> 0:30:51.360
<v Speaker 2>felt different, like you kind of felt they were personalized

0:30:51.360 --> 0:30:53.600
<v Speaker 2>for me, right, they became real people. Not that the

0:30:53.640 --> 0:30:56.960
<v Speaker 2>other victims in the mob cases weren't victims. They were,

0:30:57.000 --> 0:30:57.920
<v Speaker 2>but it was different.

0:30:58.600 --> 0:31:02.600
<v Speaker 1>So his common law, it sounds like, seven years later,

0:31:02.840 --> 0:31:06.600
<v Speaker 1>is safe. So he never well safe? Does he abuse

0:31:06.640 --> 0:31:08.840
<v Speaker 1>her too before she ends up leaving?

0:31:09.160 --> 0:31:12.080
<v Speaker 2>No, she must have had a guardian or guardian angels.

0:31:12.960 --> 0:31:15.840
<v Speaker 2>He asked her on several occasions to marry him, and

0:31:16.040 --> 0:31:19.480
<v Speaker 2>something told her not to do that, so that never happened.

0:31:20.000 --> 0:31:23.240
<v Speaker 2>And I think at some point where that relationship may

0:31:23.280 --> 0:31:27.720
<v Speaker 2>have been genuine in its inception, and it was the

0:31:27.760 --> 0:31:30.200
<v Speaker 2>same m she worked at the place he worked, much

0:31:30.240 --> 0:31:32.160
<v Speaker 2>like Fran and the others, and that was one of

0:31:32.160 --> 0:31:36.040
<v Speaker 2>his mos. But I think that relationship quickly became cold

0:31:36.080 --> 0:31:38.800
<v Speaker 2>and it became almost like a platonic relationship, and it

0:31:38.880 --> 0:31:41.720
<v Speaker 2>was a relationship of convenience for her. They were sharing

0:31:41.720 --> 0:31:45.040
<v Speaker 2>a house, they had a couple of dogs together. It

0:31:45.240 --> 0:31:48.920
<v Speaker 2>was a convenient relationship for her that they were sharing expenses.

0:31:49.160 --> 0:31:52.560
<v Speaker 2>I think it wasn't necessarily a romantic relationship for a

0:31:52.600 --> 0:31:53.400
<v Speaker 2>woman in Connecticut.

0:31:53.680 --> 0:31:58.560
<v Speaker 1>But why was he fixated on Janice and on Fran

0:31:58.840 --> 0:32:01.880
<v Speaker 1>but not on she Is there a possessiveness that he

0:32:02.000 --> 0:32:04.280
<v Speaker 1>had on those first two women that he didn't have

0:32:04.440 --> 0:32:07.280
<v Speaker 1>on Sila, because maybe they had kind of grown platonic.

0:32:08.080 --> 0:32:11.120
<v Speaker 2>No, I would submit that. I think the difference is

0:32:11.520 --> 0:32:15.400
<v Speaker 2>in Janice's case, in Fran's case, they were taking control

0:32:15.400 --> 0:32:19.000
<v Speaker 2>away from him, Okay, right, they were taking control from him,

0:32:19.040 --> 0:32:21.400
<v Speaker 2>where that dynamic didn't exist with Sheila. She was just

0:32:21.440 --> 0:32:24.400
<v Speaker 2>going along to get along. She wasn't questioning him or

0:32:24.480 --> 0:32:26.880
<v Speaker 2>challenging him or confronting him. She was just going along

0:32:26.920 --> 0:32:29.959
<v Speaker 2>with it, where if you look at Fran and Janie,

0:32:30.000 --> 0:32:31.920
<v Speaker 2>they were calling him out and saying, I don't want

0:32:31.960 --> 0:32:33.000
<v Speaker 2>to be a part of this anymore.

0:32:33.040 --> 0:32:35.120
<v Speaker 1>I assume when he's with Shila he can sleep with

0:32:35.160 --> 0:32:37.280
<v Speaker 1>other women or do whatever he wants, and she's not

0:32:37.640 --> 0:32:39.400
<v Speaker 1>really him and a haunt about it.

0:32:39.560 --> 0:32:42.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I think Sheila suspect. She even said I suspected

0:32:42.680 --> 0:32:44.600
<v Speaker 2>he had another wife. I suspected he had other stuff

0:32:44.640 --> 0:32:47.160
<v Speaker 2>going on. Yeah. I don't think she was broken hearted

0:32:47.160 --> 0:32:47.520
<v Speaker 2>about it.

0:32:48.040 --> 0:32:51.720
<v Speaker 1>Okay, So Sheila is safe in ninety eight and you're

0:32:51.720 --> 0:32:54.520
<v Speaker 1>looking at the case and you can't find him. He

0:32:54.680 --> 0:32:57.920
<v Speaker 1>is in the wind somewhere. Where do you start? I

0:32:57.960 --> 0:33:01.760
<v Speaker 1>know the priority was obviously finding John Smith, but also

0:33:01.880 --> 0:33:04.200
<v Speaker 1>I know you have in your head where are his

0:33:04.280 --> 0:33:06.719
<v Speaker 1>two wives? And how do you find them? So you've

0:33:06.720 --> 0:33:08.800
<v Speaker 1>got kind of three different things that you're trying to

0:33:08.800 --> 0:33:09.960
<v Speaker 1>deal with at the same time.

0:33:10.200 --> 0:33:12.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Well, step one is to find him, right, find

0:33:12.520 --> 0:33:15.520
<v Speaker 2>them and let's figure out his pattern of life. What

0:33:15.680 --> 0:33:17.560
<v Speaker 2>is he doing now? Where is he easy married again?

0:33:17.600 --> 0:33:20.280
<v Speaker 2>Which would be a problem. The challenge, and again this

0:33:20.320 --> 0:33:24.520
<v Speaker 2>is before nine to eleven. The process was I feel

0:33:24.520 --> 0:33:26.320
<v Speaker 2>old when I tell the story. There was a form

0:33:26.360 --> 0:33:28.480
<v Speaker 2>we would fill out when you were trying to find

0:33:28.520 --> 0:33:31.920
<v Speaker 2>out some information on somebody, and you would fedexit to

0:33:32.040 --> 0:33:35.200
<v Speaker 2>Butte Montana, which was the FBI's repository of all their stuff,

0:33:35.760 --> 0:33:37.840
<v Speaker 2>and they would based upon the name and date of birth,

0:33:37.920 --> 0:33:40.080
<v Speaker 2>they would search their records and they would get hits

0:33:40.080 --> 0:33:42.760
<v Speaker 2>and they would send you a box of records. The

0:33:42.880 --> 0:33:45.560
<v Speaker 2>problem the name here was John Smith, and in an

0:33:45.600 --> 0:33:48.479
<v Speaker 2>overabundance of caution, what the FBI would do is they

0:33:48.520 --> 0:33:51.840
<v Speaker 2>would send people with similar names or similar data base

0:33:51.920 --> 0:33:54.040
<v Speaker 2>of birth. So I'm not joking. Were one day I'm

0:33:54.080 --> 0:33:56.760
<v Speaker 2>in my office and is knocking my door and there's

0:33:56.960 --> 0:33:58.960
<v Speaker 2>like four or five guys in the hallway with hand

0:33:58.960 --> 0:34:03.800
<v Speaker 2>trucks with boxes. So John Smith is one of thousands

0:34:03.800 --> 0:34:06.800
<v Speaker 2>of these files. It was a needle in a haystack

0:34:06.840 --> 0:34:10.759
<v Speaker 2>trying and it was overwhelming. So I was trying to

0:34:10.760 --> 0:34:12.759
<v Speaker 2>go through that, but I was always also trying to

0:34:12.800 --> 0:34:16.080
<v Speaker 2>figure out other ways to figure it out, and eventually

0:34:16.080 --> 0:34:16.439
<v Speaker 2>I did.

0:34:17.080 --> 0:34:19.919
<v Speaker 1>How do you end up ultimately finding him?

0:34:20.320 --> 0:34:23.280
<v Speaker 2>One of the first pieces was in going through the files,

0:34:23.560 --> 0:34:26.120
<v Speaker 2>I learned of a woman who was a sex worker

0:34:26.160 --> 0:34:28.600
<v Speaker 2>who at one point was living with him, and I

0:34:28.680 --> 0:34:30.960
<v Speaker 2>found her. She was incarcerat at the time when I

0:34:31.000 --> 0:34:33.000
<v Speaker 2>interviewed her, and I learned a lot of information from

0:34:33.040 --> 0:34:35.359
<v Speaker 2>her about him and their life together. But the key

0:34:35.400 --> 0:34:39.000
<v Speaker 2>and how I found him was at some point in

0:34:39.239 --> 0:34:41.720
<v Speaker 2>I think it was nineteen ninety five, John was arrested

0:34:41.760 --> 0:34:44.200
<v Speaker 2>in Ohio on a silly charge of driving with a

0:34:44.480 --> 0:34:47.600
<v Speaker 2>suspended license, And when they brought him in and questioned him,

0:34:47.880 --> 0:34:50.200
<v Speaker 2>in his possession he had a little wallet sized photo

0:34:50.200 --> 0:34:53.160
<v Speaker 2>of an unidentified a woman. So when the cops asked

0:34:53.560 --> 0:34:55.480
<v Speaker 2>who was this woman, he said, it's my girlfriend from

0:34:55.520 --> 0:34:58.799
<v Speaker 2>New Hampshire, and he wouldn't reveal her identity. So now

0:34:58.880 --> 0:35:01.759
<v Speaker 2>years later, I've got this photograph. When I looked at

0:35:01.800 --> 0:35:04.040
<v Speaker 2>the bottom of the photograph, it had that little trademark

0:35:04.120 --> 0:35:06.560
<v Speaker 2>said Glamour Shots, and I blew it up. You know,

0:35:06.560 --> 0:35:09.200
<v Speaker 2>I knew it was New Hampshire or girlfriend. I sent

0:35:09.200 --> 0:35:12.040
<v Speaker 2>it to the studios up there, and through a lot

0:35:12.040 --> 0:35:16.319
<v Speaker 2>of work, I identified that woman. She cooperated and ultimately

0:35:16.520 --> 0:35:20.480
<v Speaker 2>she identified where he was. And unfortunately, at that point

0:35:20.600 --> 0:35:22.920
<v Speaker 2>he had been remarried. He remarried it again to a

0:35:22.960 --> 0:35:26.840
<v Speaker 2>woman in California, re established himself out there like a chameleon.

0:35:27.200 --> 0:35:30.560
<v Speaker 2>I had this whole new life, and now we're very concerned.

0:35:30.560 --> 0:35:32.680
<v Speaker 2>There is a you know, there's a sense of urgency.

0:35:32.719 --> 0:35:36.120
<v Speaker 2>Now is this woman in harm's way? So that's how

0:35:36.160 --> 0:35:36.960
<v Speaker 2>we found him.

0:35:37.280 --> 0:35:42.359
<v Speaker 1>Well, that's incredible. So what happens with John and his

0:35:42.520 --> 0:35:46.839
<v Speaker 1>new wife at what stage in their marriage. Were you

0:35:46.920 --> 0:35:47.799
<v Speaker 1>introduced into this?

0:35:48.200 --> 0:35:50.000
<v Speaker 2>They had just been married a few months by the

0:35:50.000 --> 0:35:50.799
<v Speaker 2>time I learned this.

0:35:51.160 --> 0:35:54.040
<v Speaker 1>They were just married, so she was safe at least.

0:35:53.920 --> 0:35:55.680
<v Speaker 2>At that time. I couldn't answer that. All I know

0:35:55.840 --> 0:35:58.000
<v Speaker 2>is they had just been married. I didn't know, but

0:35:58.040 --> 0:35:58.919
<v Speaker 2>I had to figure that out.

0:35:59.160 --> 0:36:02.200
<v Speaker 1>So you find him, But do you have additional evidence

0:36:02.480 --> 0:36:06.160
<v Speaker 1>that you know he murdered and then hid the bodies

0:36:06.160 --> 0:36:07.760
<v Speaker 1>of his first and his second wife.

0:36:08.000 --> 0:36:10.200
<v Speaker 2>No, I have nothing in the way of new evidence.

0:36:10.280 --> 0:36:12.799
<v Speaker 2>I just had a different strategy. And the strategy very

0:36:12.840 --> 0:36:16.040
<v Speaker 2>simply was. You know, in talking to all the investigators

0:36:16.080 --> 0:36:18.680
<v Speaker 2>from the previous years, they would tell similar stories where

0:36:18.680 --> 0:36:20.719
<v Speaker 2>Smith would come in to be interviewed for hours at

0:36:20.719 --> 0:36:24.920
<v Speaker 2>a time, seemingly pretend to cooperate, but ultimately wouldn't reveal anything.

0:36:25.400 --> 0:36:27.680
<v Speaker 2>But then when he was done, he would go to

0:36:27.800 --> 0:36:30.160
<v Speaker 2>his closest friend and families and warned them, Hey, if

0:36:30.160 --> 0:36:32.799
<v Speaker 2>the cops come talk to you, this is nonsense. Don't

0:36:32.800 --> 0:36:34.560
<v Speaker 2>talk to them, don't answer their questions, and lo and

0:36:34.560 --> 0:36:37.480
<v Speaker 2>behold when the cops would go No, nothing was gleaned.

0:36:37.719 --> 0:36:40.239
<v Speaker 2>So what I decided to do was in May on

0:36:40.320 --> 0:36:42.759
<v Speaker 2>May fifth of nineteen ninety nine. By this point. I

0:36:42.840 --> 0:36:45.120
<v Speaker 2>had surveillance on John and I knew his pattern of life.

0:36:45.160 --> 0:36:47.200
<v Speaker 2>I knew everything about what he was doing. I knew

0:36:47.239 --> 0:36:49.200
<v Speaker 2>he came to work very early. So one day when

0:36:49.200 --> 0:36:52.319
<v Speaker 2>he arrives at work, I intercepted him and I took

0:36:52.400 --> 0:36:55.040
<v Speaker 2>him to a hotel room. The room was stage and

0:36:55.120 --> 0:36:57.279
<v Speaker 2>set up, and there were cameras in next door or

0:36:57.320 --> 0:37:00.600
<v Speaker 2>two profiles from Quantico. But what I did differently was

0:37:01.160 --> 0:37:03.759
<v Speaker 2>I had identified all the people in his life through

0:37:03.800 --> 0:37:07.200
<v Speaker 2>all the years, from the seventies to present time, who

0:37:07.280 --> 0:37:09.239
<v Speaker 2>I felt had a piece of this. And once I

0:37:09.360 --> 0:37:12.960
<v Speaker 2>had John Smith in that room, around the United States,

0:37:13.120 --> 0:37:16.879
<v Speaker 2>fbis and detectives interviewed everybody in his life the same

0:37:16.960 --> 0:37:21.560
<v Speaker 2>day and the same time, and as those interviews revealed information,

0:37:21.760 --> 0:37:24.319
<v Speaker 2>it would be funneled next door to the profiles, who

0:37:24.320 --> 0:37:27.239
<v Speaker 2>would then pass it to me. So I spent I

0:37:27.280 --> 0:37:29.719
<v Speaker 2>don't know, from seven in the morning till about three

0:37:29.760 --> 0:37:32.560
<v Speaker 2>thirty in the afternoon interrogating Smith. That's a whole story and

0:37:32.640 --> 0:37:34.920
<v Speaker 2>of itself. There was a time when he nearly broke

0:37:34.960 --> 0:37:37.960
<v Speaker 2>and he got emotional, and he almost you could see it.

0:37:38.000 --> 0:37:41.160
<v Speaker 2>He started making very incremating statements. I feel responsible what

0:37:41.239 --> 0:37:43.800
<v Speaker 2>tappening to these women. My life is a nightmare. I

0:37:43.840 --> 0:37:45.320
<v Speaker 2>don't know how the nightmare. I don't know how to

0:37:45.360 --> 0:37:48.120
<v Speaker 2>make this nightmare end. He started talking like this, and

0:37:48.160 --> 0:37:52.520
<v Speaker 2>then he caught himself, and then ultimately he faked a

0:37:52.560 --> 0:37:54.960
<v Speaker 2>heart attack to get out of the interview. But as

0:37:55.000 --> 0:37:58.160
<v Speaker 2>a result of that, the following week, John's younger brother,

0:37:58.239 --> 0:38:02.399
<v Speaker 2>Michael Smith came forward. Michael cooperated and Michael told us

0:38:02.480 --> 0:38:06.400
<v Speaker 2>that back in the seventies, when Janice had disappeared, so

0:38:06.440 --> 0:38:09.920
<v Speaker 2>this would have been nineteen seventy four when Janie had disappeared,

0:38:09.920 --> 0:38:13.120
<v Speaker 2>it was around Thanksgiving and they were celebrating things to

0:38:13.120 --> 0:38:15.160
<v Speaker 2>give me. The grandparents' house, there was a little like

0:38:15.320 --> 0:38:17.720
<v Speaker 2>farmhouse and next to it was this little gas station

0:38:17.800 --> 0:38:20.400
<v Speaker 2>that was closed for the holiday. Michael was watching the

0:38:20.400 --> 0:38:23.000
<v Speaker 2>football game and walked out and saw that the garage

0:38:23.160 --> 0:38:25.160
<v Speaker 2>the doors were opened, and Michael walked in and saw

0:38:25.239 --> 0:38:28.200
<v Speaker 2>John building a box. And he walked in. There's plywood,

0:38:28.200 --> 0:38:30.239
<v Speaker 2>and he says, what are you doing. John says, well,

0:38:30.280 --> 0:38:32.400
<v Speaker 2>I'm building a box. Mike says, why are you building

0:38:32.400 --> 0:38:34.920
<v Speaker 2>a box? John says, well, Janie took off and she

0:38:35.000 --> 0:38:37.799
<v Speaker 2>left them over belongings behind. So I was building a

0:38:37.840 --> 0:38:39.719
<v Speaker 2>box to put her stuff in, and Michael says, that

0:38:39.719 --> 0:38:41.840
<v Speaker 2>doesn't make sense. Why we just get some cardboard boxes?

0:38:41.880 --> 0:38:44.240
<v Speaker 2>And John says, just leaving me alone. Michael walks away.

0:38:44.440 --> 0:38:46.840
<v Speaker 2>About an hour or more later, he looks outside, and

0:38:46.840 --> 0:38:49.520
<v Speaker 2>now the garage doors are closed, and Michael walks over,

0:38:49.560 --> 0:38:52.240
<v Speaker 2>and there were glass panes in the garage door. Michael

0:38:52.280 --> 0:38:54.920
<v Speaker 2>pressed his face against the door the glass, I should say,

0:38:55.000 --> 0:38:57.600
<v Speaker 2>and he saw what appeared to be a fully constructed

0:38:57.640 --> 0:39:01.080
<v Speaker 2>plywood box, you know, four foot long, two foot wide

0:39:01.360 --> 0:39:04.400
<v Speaker 2>or so. And he sees John picking up clothing that

0:39:04.480 --> 0:39:06.399
<v Speaker 2>belonged to Janice, and he's rolling him up and he's

0:39:06.400 --> 0:39:09.440
<v Speaker 2>putting him inside this box, and John is reportedly crying.

0:39:09.640 --> 0:39:13.160
<v Speaker 2>Michael doesn't confront him, doesn't say anything. That box allegedly

0:39:13.200 --> 0:39:16.680
<v Speaker 2>stays in that garage. A week later, Mike sees the

0:39:16.719 --> 0:39:19.160
<v Speaker 2>box nailed shut in the garage. It's sitting on the

0:39:19.160 --> 0:39:21.880
<v Speaker 2>floor there. It stayed in there from November of nineteen

0:39:21.960 --> 0:39:26.440
<v Speaker 2>seventy four until May of nineteen seventy nine. And at

0:39:26.560 --> 0:39:29.960
<v Speaker 2>nineteen seventy nine, John is now relocated to Indiana, which

0:39:29.960 --> 0:39:33.160
<v Speaker 2>was eight hours away by car. The grandfather finds the box,

0:39:33.200 --> 0:39:36.480
<v Speaker 2>summons Michael, and they discover that Janice had been dismembered

0:39:36.480 --> 0:39:40.520
<v Speaker 2>in her body's in that box. Instead of contacting the authorities,

0:39:40.600 --> 0:39:43.120
<v Speaker 2>they call John. John comes and retrieves a box and

0:39:43.200 --> 0:39:45.320
<v Speaker 2>drives off of it. So now we have to find

0:39:45.360 --> 0:39:47.600
<v Speaker 2>this box. Through a lot of effort and a lot

0:39:47.640 --> 0:39:51.040
<v Speaker 2>of searching, I was searching everywhere you can imagine, it

0:39:51.160 --> 0:39:53.719
<v Speaker 2>was found that what John did was he drove back

0:39:53.760 --> 0:39:56.319
<v Speaker 2>to Indianapolis nearly eight hours with this box with his

0:39:56.840 --> 0:39:59.440
<v Speaker 2>wife's membered body in it, and he stopped along a

0:39:59.520 --> 0:40:02.040
<v Speaker 2>rural road and threw the box down a hill like

0:40:02.080 --> 0:40:05.480
<v Speaker 2>a ravine. The following spring, which was spring of nineteen eighty,

0:40:05.480 --> 0:40:08.440
<v Speaker 2>a road crew was fixing potholes, found this box, opened

0:40:08.480 --> 0:40:11.279
<v Speaker 2>it and found the remains. She was buried as a

0:40:11.360 --> 0:40:14.160
<v Speaker 2>Jane Doe. So once we put all the pieces together,

0:40:14.239 --> 0:40:17.960
<v Speaker 2>we exhumed the body, did some DNA analysis confirmed it

0:40:18.000 --> 0:40:21.640
<v Speaker 2>was her. So with Michael's testimony and everything, we went

0:40:21.680 --> 0:40:25.360
<v Speaker 2>to trial. He was convicted for Jenesi's murder and that's

0:40:25.400 --> 0:40:26.359
<v Speaker 2>why he's in jail today.

0:40:26.719 --> 0:40:28.560
<v Speaker 1>First of all, that's amazing, don't get that out of

0:40:28.600 --> 0:40:32.160
<v Speaker 1>the way, But how did you figure out where he

0:40:32.400 --> 0:40:35.120
<v Speaker 1>had dumped the body, because I can't imagine that that's

0:40:35.160 --> 0:40:39.000
<v Speaker 1>the first crew to have found a Jane Doe. Just

0:40:39.080 --> 0:40:42.200
<v Speaker 1>remember Jane Doe. Maybe it is, but what matched up.

0:40:42.320 --> 0:40:43.240
<v Speaker 1>That's five years.

0:40:43.320 --> 0:40:45.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So we had Michael's story, and I'll be honest,

0:40:45.200 --> 0:40:47.160
<v Speaker 2>I didn't believe it. A lot of it didn't make sense.

0:40:47.200 --> 0:40:51.240
<v Speaker 2>I had more questions than anything. But I started doing excavations.

0:40:51.280 --> 0:40:54.840
<v Speaker 2>I dug up properties and houses looking for this unsuccessfully.

0:40:54.960 --> 0:40:57.319
<v Speaker 2>Law enforcement has a teletype system back then. It was

0:40:57.320 --> 0:40:59.640
<v Speaker 2>this loud printer thing, and I would on a monthly

0:40:59.680 --> 0:41:02.320
<v Speaker 2>base put out alert saying the FBI is in receipt

0:41:02.360 --> 0:41:05.480
<v Speaker 2>of information, we're looking for an alleged box and all this,

0:41:06.000 --> 0:41:08.360
<v Speaker 2>and I got nothing. One of the detective sergeants I

0:41:08.400 --> 0:41:10.880
<v Speaker 2>was working with, by the name of Brian Potts in Ohio,

0:41:11.239 --> 0:41:13.960
<v Speaker 2>he wrote letters and mailed them to all of the

0:41:14.200 --> 0:41:18.200
<v Speaker 2>medical examiners and sheriff's office in Ohio, Michigan, and Indiana,

0:41:18.920 --> 0:41:21.960
<v Speaker 2>and by I say, divine intervention, one of the letters

0:41:22.040 --> 0:41:25.400
<v Speaker 2>landed on a sheriff's desk in Indiana who was a

0:41:25.440 --> 0:41:29.919
<v Speaker 2>young deputy was called by the road crew saying, hey,

0:41:29.920 --> 0:41:31.720
<v Speaker 2>we just found a box on the side of the roads.

0:41:31.760 --> 0:41:33.879
<v Speaker 2>When he got the letter, he said, oh my god,

0:41:33.920 --> 0:41:35.719
<v Speaker 2>I think this is the box from twenty years ago.

0:41:36.120 --> 0:41:38.240
<v Speaker 2>And then he contacted us. That's how it was made.

0:41:38.360 --> 0:41:41.319
<v Speaker 1>I'm just curious about this. When you have a situation,

0:41:41.880 --> 0:41:44.920
<v Speaker 1>when you are with a person like Michael Smith, who

0:41:44.960 --> 0:41:48.720
<v Speaker 1>did nothing for so many years, knowing something bad was happening,

0:41:48.719 --> 0:41:53.080
<v Speaker 1>but then he does this really brave thing, you must

0:41:53.120 --> 0:41:55.440
<v Speaker 1>have mixed feelings. Are you surprised one way or the

0:41:55.480 --> 0:41:58.839
<v Speaker 1>other when either family turns against each other or they

0:41:58.920 --> 0:42:01.439
<v Speaker 1>keep a secret for decay and decades for somebody who's

0:42:01.440 --> 0:42:02.920
<v Speaker 1>truly horrible and they know it.

0:42:03.280 --> 0:42:05.040
<v Speaker 2>I think that's a great question. The answer is, I'm

0:42:05.040 --> 0:42:07.920
<v Speaker 2>never surprised by anything anymore. I will tell you that

0:42:07.920 --> 0:42:10.480
<v Speaker 2>that this traumatized Michael. I don't want to say it

0:42:10.520 --> 0:42:13.279
<v Speaker 2>destroyed him, but he'd lived with this, and then you

0:42:13.280 --> 0:42:16.200
<v Speaker 2>can imagine his guilty years later when he's contacted again

0:42:16.239 --> 0:42:20.319
<v Speaker 2>in the nineties by cops from Jersey saying Franz disappeared,

0:42:20.400 --> 0:42:22.040
<v Speaker 2>and in his mind he's going, oh, my god, had

0:42:22.040 --> 0:42:24.840
<v Speaker 2>I done the right thing years ago? But in his defense,

0:42:25.239 --> 0:42:30.360
<v Speaker 2>the grandfather was a very strong figure, and Michael said, hey, Grandpa,

0:42:30.480 --> 0:42:33.440
<v Speaker 2>we gotta contact the Sheriff's office, and grandfather said, no,

0:42:34.040 --> 0:42:36.799
<v Speaker 2>the only person we're calling is your brother John. That's it.

0:42:37.000 --> 0:42:38.560
<v Speaker 1>What about Grace his mom?

0:42:39.200 --> 0:42:41.240
<v Speaker 2>Kate. I've interviewed a lot of people in my career.

0:42:41.719 --> 0:42:44.920
<v Speaker 2>I can't imagine how many. She had this chilling nature

0:42:44.920 --> 0:42:47.480
<v Speaker 2>about her. She was a small woman, but she had

0:42:47.960 --> 0:42:49.799
<v Speaker 2>I don't know if you want to say energy about her,

0:42:49.840 --> 0:42:54.160
<v Speaker 2>but there was something about that woman that didn't sit well.

0:42:54.680 --> 0:42:58.439
<v Speaker 1>Well, let's get to you clearly running into a brick

0:42:58.520 --> 0:43:02.719
<v Speaker 1>wall at some point on Fran's case, because you had

0:43:02.920 --> 0:43:06.520
<v Speaker 1>a sad but satisfying conclusion in Janii's case. So now

0:43:06.560 --> 0:43:08.640
<v Speaker 1>you're on Fran's case, which I'm sure you've been working

0:43:08.719 --> 0:43:11.359
<v Speaker 1>the whole time too. At what point do you have

0:43:11.440 --> 0:43:12.720
<v Speaker 1>to throw this hail? Mary?

0:43:13.160 --> 0:43:15.600
<v Speaker 2>Well, that's kind of a funny story. So early on

0:43:15.719 --> 0:43:18.320
<v Speaker 2>the case, when I just started it, you have to understand,

0:43:18.440 --> 0:43:21.520
<v Speaker 2>I am overwhelmed with twenty five years of investigative boxes

0:43:21.520 --> 0:43:23.959
<v Speaker 2>and boxes of police reports. I'm trying to make sense

0:43:24.000 --> 0:43:26.480
<v Speaker 2>of all the facts and details. On top of working

0:43:26.480 --> 0:43:30.360
<v Speaker 2>twenty other cases. I was working Manhattan, commuting from Jersey,

0:43:30.520 --> 0:43:33.400
<v Speaker 2>and there was a very popular radio station. Everybody listened

0:43:33.400 --> 0:43:36.680
<v Speaker 2>to this WPLJ. And you have to understand, I'm a

0:43:36.760 --> 0:43:39.959
<v Speaker 2>very cynical guy. That's my nature. I am a skeptical guy.

0:43:40.239 --> 0:43:42.759
<v Speaker 2>And this guy came in the radio, and when I

0:43:42.800 --> 0:43:44.560
<v Speaker 2>heard him, I shut the radio off because it was

0:43:44.600 --> 0:43:46.920
<v Speaker 2>so silly. And the guy who was invited guests. His

0:43:47.000 --> 0:43:49.200
<v Speaker 2>name was John Edward. He claimed to be psychic, and

0:43:49.239 --> 0:43:51.399
<v Speaker 2>his thing was he claimed that he if he took

0:43:51.440 --> 0:43:53.520
<v Speaker 2>a call from you, he would have the ability to

0:43:53.520 --> 0:43:55.719
<v Speaker 2>connect to your past level one, so he callers would

0:43:55.760 --> 0:43:57.839
<v Speaker 2>call in. He started doing this thing and saying, oh,

0:43:57.840 --> 0:44:00.560
<v Speaker 2>I got your mother or father, And I said, how

0:44:00.560 --> 0:44:02.680
<v Speaker 2>stupid could people be? And I would shut the radio

0:44:02.719 --> 0:44:05.319
<v Speaker 2>wall for change the station. A couple of weeks later,

0:44:05.320 --> 0:44:07.560
<v Speaker 2>I'd hear him again and again, and finally about the

0:44:07.560 --> 0:44:10.600
<v Speaker 2>third or fourth time, it really bothered me. There was

0:44:10.640 --> 0:44:14.040
<v Speaker 2>something about this, How could people be so silly? I

0:44:14.160 --> 0:44:16.320
<v Speaker 2>called his office and I told them that I was

0:44:16.360 --> 0:44:20.560
<v Speaker 2>an FBI New York and I was working unsolid murder cases,

0:44:20.719 --> 0:44:22.800
<v Speaker 2>missing person cases. And I heard him on the radio,

0:44:22.960 --> 0:44:25.279
<v Speaker 2>and I wanted to meet with him because the way

0:44:25.320 --> 0:44:26.759
<v Speaker 2>I saw it, I could put him on the phone

0:44:26.760 --> 0:44:29.680
<v Speaker 2>with Fran's family, and I didn't tell them or him

0:44:29.719 --> 0:44:32.200
<v Speaker 2>the name of friend. I just said the victim's family,

0:44:32.600 --> 0:44:36.120
<v Speaker 2>he could do his thing and maybe help me figure out,

0:44:36.239 --> 0:44:38.160
<v Speaker 2>you know, where she is. And they were very reluctant,

0:44:38.360 --> 0:44:40.840
<v Speaker 2>and to me, that just confirmed to me that he

0:44:41.000 --> 0:44:42.880
<v Speaker 2>was a con. But a week later or so, I

0:44:42.960 --> 0:44:45.200
<v Speaker 2>get a call from his assistant who says, John is

0:44:45.200 --> 0:44:46.920
<v Speaker 2>willing to meet with you. Would you want to come

0:44:46.920 --> 0:44:49.040
<v Speaker 2>in tomorrow? I did. The only thing they asked me

0:44:49.080 --> 0:44:52.359
<v Speaker 2>to bring were artifacture items connected to the person I

0:44:52.400 --> 0:44:54.719
<v Speaker 2>was looking for. And I said, like what they said,

0:44:54.760 --> 0:44:57.440
<v Speaker 2>it could be jewelry, it could be anything, Okay. So

0:44:57.520 --> 0:44:59.680
<v Speaker 2>I called the detective in Jersey, Mike, and I said him, Mike,

0:44:59.760 --> 0:45:01.560
<v Speaker 2>go evidence to get some of the fans stuff. We're

0:45:01.600 --> 0:45:04.360
<v Speaker 2>going to see this alleged psychic. And the day we

0:45:04.440 --> 0:45:06.680
<v Speaker 2>went to see him, before we left, I went around

0:45:06.680 --> 0:45:09.440
<v Speaker 2>my office to four different women. I would say, Hey, Kate,

0:45:09.520 --> 0:45:11.600
<v Speaker 2>let me borrow your earrings, Say Susie, let me borrow

0:45:11.640 --> 0:45:14.160
<v Speaker 2>your watch. I took four items from four other women

0:45:14.280 --> 0:45:16.200
<v Speaker 2>and I put him in the bag with these other items,

0:45:16.400 --> 0:45:18.960
<v Speaker 2>And just to expedite the story we went to see him,

0:45:19.080 --> 0:45:21.040
<v Speaker 2>I'm for sure going to reveal in my mind that

0:45:21.320 --> 0:45:24.560
<v Speaker 2>he's not who he says he is, and he basically

0:45:24.719 --> 0:45:26.520
<v Speaker 2>in no one's certain terms, said, hey, listen, when I

0:45:26.520 --> 0:45:28.560
<v Speaker 2>get started here, I'm going to get a lot of information,

0:45:28.640 --> 0:45:30.040
<v Speaker 2>a lot of things I'm going to say. You're going

0:45:30.080 --> 0:45:32.560
<v Speaker 2>to resonate with. I don't want you to respond. I

0:45:32.560 --> 0:45:34.719
<v Speaker 2>don't want you to give me anything. I just want

0:45:34.760 --> 0:45:37.040
<v Speaker 2>you to be quiet, he said. But I may also

0:45:37.080 --> 0:45:39.360
<v Speaker 2>say things that you don't that's not familiar with you.

0:45:39.400 --> 0:45:41.360
<v Speaker 2>It's important to write these things down as well. So

0:45:41.440 --> 0:45:43.560
<v Speaker 2>I put these nine objects in front of them, and

0:45:43.680 --> 0:45:46.359
<v Speaker 2>if I put them before, you couldn't discern one from

0:45:46.400 --> 0:45:48.799
<v Speaker 2>the other. Nothing stood out about any of them. And

0:45:48.840 --> 0:45:51.040
<v Speaker 2>he looked across these things, and he started pulling some

0:45:51.080 --> 0:45:53.319
<v Speaker 2>things together, and he put his hands and he pushed them.

0:45:53.480 --> 0:45:54.960
<v Speaker 2>These things away. He says, I don't know what these

0:45:55.000 --> 0:45:56.520
<v Speaker 2>things are, but they have nothing to do with why

0:45:56.600 --> 0:46:00.000
<v Speaker 2>you're here. They were the four items of the women

0:46:00.040 --> 0:46:02.400
<v Speaker 2>that I brought. And then Kate. He picked up a

0:46:02.440 --> 0:46:05.360
<v Speaker 2>pair of eyeglasses that belonged to fran and the information

0:46:05.520 --> 0:46:08.359
<v Speaker 2>he provided was impossible for him to know. He called

0:46:08.360 --> 0:46:11.319
<v Speaker 2>her by her name, he described her in detail, told

0:46:11.400 --> 0:46:14.399
<v Speaker 2>us physical attributes that were He said, she has mail

0:46:14.440 --> 0:46:16.040
<v Speaker 2>in her hip, like a pin or a screw or

0:46:16.040 --> 0:46:19.880
<v Speaker 2>a rod pins. He described her physically. He described she

0:46:19.960 --> 0:46:22.000
<v Speaker 2>was missing a toe, and he described that she had

0:46:22.000 --> 0:46:24.839
<v Speaker 2>breast implants. He described how many kids she had, and

0:46:24.840 --> 0:46:27.360
<v Speaker 2>he said, she's dead. The person who caused her death

0:46:27.800 --> 0:46:29.839
<v Speaker 2>is either a husband or boyfriend. It's a Jay name

0:46:29.880 --> 0:46:31.960
<v Speaker 2>and I'm pretty short John. And that was the very

0:46:31.960 --> 0:46:34.280
<v Speaker 2>first meeting. And he starts getting more and more information

0:46:34.719 --> 0:46:37.759
<v Speaker 2>and says, whose name is Michael. Michael, of course, is

0:46:37.840 --> 0:46:40.200
<v Speaker 2>John's brother. He says, Michael knows everything you need to

0:46:40.200 --> 0:46:42.760
<v Speaker 2>get to Michael, and he starts giving us information about

0:46:42.760 --> 0:46:45.520
<v Speaker 2>Michael and the case in facts that were mind blowing.

0:46:46.200 --> 0:46:48.319
<v Speaker 2>And then somewhere in that initial meeting, he says, wait

0:46:48.320 --> 0:46:51.680
<v Speaker 2>a minute, why are you really here. He almost became indignant,

0:46:51.719 --> 0:46:54.920
<v Speaker 2>and he says, you already have this this victim. He says,

0:46:55.440 --> 0:46:57.160
<v Speaker 2>I see a box on the side of a road.

0:46:57.280 --> 0:46:59.719
<v Speaker 2>It's a plywood box and it's Dana Ravine. I see

0:46:59.760 --> 0:47:02.000
<v Speaker 2>the line the police cars, he says, I see the

0:47:02.000 --> 0:47:04.840
<v Speaker 2>newspaper article woman in the Box or girl in the Box.

0:47:05.360 --> 0:47:07.760
<v Speaker 2>And at this point in the case, Kate the detective,

0:47:07.800 --> 0:47:10.560
<v Speaker 2>and I have no idea what he's talking about. Turns

0:47:10.560 --> 0:47:12.520
<v Speaker 2>out all the things he said turned to be true.

0:47:12.719 --> 0:47:15.200
<v Speaker 2>So that's how I met John Edward and I formed

0:47:15.200 --> 0:47:18.560
<v Speaker 2>a relationship with him, and that relationship lasted twenty five

0:47:18.640 --> 0:47:22.479
<v Speaker 2>years till actually today thirty years, and that one case

0:47:22.560 --> 0:47:25.880
<v Speaker 2>led to many others, and he was instrumental in assisting

0:47:25.960 --> 0:47:26.880
<v Speaker 2>me in many cases.

0:47:27.000 --> 0:47:29.680
<v Speaker 1>So he was helpful in the case of France. Is

0:47:29.680 --> 0:47:30.080
<v Speaker 1>that right?

0:47:30.280 --> 0:47:31.480
<v Speaker 2>One hundred percent? Wow?

0:47:31.920 --> 0:47:37.640
<v Speaker 1>So you went from a skeptic of you know, psychics, mediums,

0:47:37.719 --> 0:47:41.640
<v Speaker 1>clairvoyancy and all of that stuff to specifically believing in

0:47:41.719 --> 0:47:45.320
<v Speaker 1>John Edward or are you open minded about the whole field?

0:47:45.640 --> 0:47:48.239
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well that's a great question. I don't have a

0:47:48.239 --> 0:47:52.040
<v Speaker 2>crystal ball or Oluigi board, and I'm not like pursuing

0:47:52.080 --> 0:47:55.480
<v Speaker 2>this in any other realm. The answer is because he

0:47:55.680 --> 0:47:58.759
<v Speaker 2>proved himself to me in that case, I trusted him.

0:47:59.160 --> 0:48:02.160
<v Speaker 2>I'm not an expert on psychics or mediumship, but I

0:48:02.200 --> 0:48:05.520
<v Speaker 2>can tell you from my personal experience with John's Edward

0:48:06.200 --> 0:48:08.319
<v Speaker 2>he is who he says he is. He has this

0:48:08.520 --> 0:48:13.040
<v Speaker 2>incredible ability and the information that he has provided over

0:48:13.080 --> 0:48:16.440
<v Speaker 2>these twenty five years is undeniable. In other cases, he

0:48:16.560 --> 0:48:18.879
<v Speaker 2>led me at midnight to the location of a missing

0:48:18.960 --> 0:48:21.200
<v Speaker 2>five year old boy another case, he led me to

0:48:21.280 --> 0:48:24.000
<v Speaker 2>another or another. I mean, it's undeniable what he helped

0:48:24.000 --> 0:48:26.040
<v Speaker 2>me with. And I had to keep this relationship secret

0:48:26.080 --> 0:48:27.960
<v Speaker 2>for all these years. So that's what prompted us to

0:48:28.000 --> 0:48:29.880
<v Speaker 2>write this book. I retired and I wrote the book.

0:48:30.160 --> 0:48:31.840
<v Speaker 1>Now, why did you have to keep it a secret?

0:48:32.120 --> 0:48:34.000
<v Speaker 1>And I know that he does tell you with this

0:48:34.080 --> 0:48:36.959
<v Speaker 1>initial investigation, do not go to the media. I don't

0:48:36.960 --> 0:48:38.880
<v Speaker 1>want to be named. I don't want press. Is that

0:48:39.080 --> 0:48:40.560
<v Speaker 1>why or is it the FBI?

0:48:41.120 --> 0:48:43.960
<v Speaker 2>Well both, I there's no there's no chance I'm going

0:48:44.000 --> 0:48:46.040
<v Speaker 2>to the media or the FBI saying I guess what,

0:48:46.080 --> 0:48:48.560
<v Speaker 2>I'm talking to a psychic, because you know, but from

0:48:48.600 --> 0:48:51.000
<v Speaker 2>my own experience, if one of my colleagues came in

0:48:51.000 --> 0:48:52.719
<v Speaker 2>and said, Bob, I'm talking to a psychic, I would

0:48:52.719 --> 0:48:57.040
<v Speaker 2>have said, you're crazy. There's no chance. So I probably

0:48:57.640 --> 0:48:59.920
<v Speaker 2>for me, I didn't reveal this because I didn't want

0:48:59.960 --> 0:49:02.080
<v Speaker 2>to embarrassed by it. I didn't want my reputation to

0:49:02.120 --> 0:49:03.520
<v Speaker 2>suffer that kind of stuff.

0:49:03.680 --> 0:49:06.760
<v Speaker 1>So they no one knew in the FBI except your buddy,

0:49:06.760 --> 0:49:07.799
<v Speaker 1>the buddy you took with you.

0:49:08.280 --> 0:49:10.839
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, there were It's revealed in a book There are

0:49:10.880 --> 0:49:13.759
<v Speaker 2>a couple of cases where some of my colleagues were

0:49:13.800 --> 0:49:15.919
<v Speaker 2>present when John called me on the phone and led

0:49:15.960 --> 0:49:18.319
<v Speaker 2>me to a location, and when it was over, they

0:49:18.320 --> 0:49:20.440
<v Speaker 2>would say, Bob, how did you know look there? How

0:49:20.440 --> 0:49:23.239
<v Speaker 2>did you know to do that? So there were a

0:49:23.239 --> 0:49:26.600
<v Speaker 2>handful of close colleagues that became aware of my relationship

0:49:26.600 --> 0:49:28.799
<v Speaker 2>with him, But the big FBI I wasn't aware of.

0:49:29.120 --> 0:49:31.880
<v Speaker 1>Do you when people read the book, do you get

0:49:32.360 --> 0:49:36.040
<v Speaker 1>skeptics toward you? Like going There's no way, you know,

0:49:36.200 --> 0:49:38.920
<v Speaker 1>you must have had the information. You're blowing this up,

0:49:39.200 --> 0:49:40.840
<v Speaker 1>you know, to sell more books. I'm just wondering if

0:49:40.840 --> 0:49:42.000
<v Speaker 1>there are skeptics out there.

0:49:42.080 --> 0:49:44.719
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, one hundred percent. We get everything right, We get

0:49:44.719 --> 0:49:47.520
<v Speaker 2>people and listen. I was that guy. But from my

0:49:47.560 --> 0:49:49.759
<v Speaker 2>experience with John, if somebody wrote a silly book like this,

0:49:49.840 --> 0:49:52.719
<v Speaker 2>I would have said, this is nonsense. So yeah, we

0:49:52.760 --> 0:49:53.960
<v Speaker 2>get a lot of that. We get a lot of

0:49:53.960 --> 0:49:56.640
<v Speaker 2>people who are true believers and people in the middle.

0:49:56.680 --> 0:49:59.320
<v Speaker 2>But I you know, I did not write the book

0:49:59.360 --> 0:50:02.320
<v Speaker 2>with the intent of hoping to convince people of John Edward.

0:50:02.880 --> 0:50:05.720
<v Speaker 2>This was just a book that detailed what took place.

0:50:05.800 --> 0:50:09.319
<v Speaker 2>There was no stretching of the truth or elaboration. There

0:50:09.920 --> 0:50:13.000
<v Speaker 2>were some cases where he didn't provide barely any information

0:50:13.080 --> 0:50:15.200
<v Speaker 2>but symbols or look for something, but it turned out

0:50:15.239 --> 0:50:17.359
<v Speaker 2>to be very significant. So I didn't, in any way,

0:50:17.400 --> 0:50:19.560
<v Speaker 2>shape or form try to make him more than he was.

0:50:20.440 --> 0:50:21.400
<v Speaker 2>This is what happened.

0:50:21.680 --> 0:50:24.000
<v Speaker 1>Do you think there are other agents in the FBI

0:50:24.160 --> 0:50:27.840
<v Speaker 1>who utilize not him necessarily, but this sort of a method.

0:50:28.680 --> 0:50:32.120
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. I think if that is happening, it's

0:50:32.120 --> 0:50:35.320
<v Speaker 2>probably on a case by case, probably similar to my story,

0:50:35.360 --> 0:50:39.399
<v Speaker 2>where an investigator happened to meet somebody by unusual circumstances

0:50:39.440 --> 0:50:42.720
<v Speaker 2>who maybe had this thing and perhaps, but the FBI

0:50:43.760 --> 0:50:48.360
<v Speaker 2>doesn't traditionally and nor should they consult with psychics. I

0:50:48.400 --> 0:50:50.600
<v Speaker 2>mean the majority of my cases for my career I

0:50:50.640 --> 0:50:54.280
<v Speaker 2>worked without John's Obama, because I had leads, I had evidence,

0:50:54.320 --> 0:50:57.239
<v Speaker 2>I had witnesses, I had things I could pursue. I

0:50:57.280 --> 0:50:59.759
<v Speaker 2>didn't need John. But some cases go cold for reason,

0:50:59.760 --> 0:51:02.840
<v Speaker 2>because you've exhausted all of those things and you're a

0:51:02.880 --> 0:51:05.319
<v Speaker 2>dead ends. And I don't like dead ends. I don't

0:51:05.320 --> 0:51:06.359
<v Speaker 2>want to be in a dead end.

0:51:06.800 --> 0:51:09.960
<v Speaker 1>Did you ever have families go? How did this happen?

0:51:10.120 --> 0:51:11.919
<v Speaker 1>How did we come upon? Did you have to tell

0:51:11.960 --> 0:51:14.719
<v Speaker 1>anybody like the nine year old boy, you know that

0:51:14.760 --> 0:51:15.600
<v Speaker 1>he helped find.

0:51:15.840 --> 0:51:19.080
<v Speaker 2>It's funny that case raised a lot of questions because

0:51:19.120 --> 0:51:20.799
<v Speaker 2>I was out there at midnight, and people said, why

0:51:20.800 --> 0:51:23.560
<v Speaker 2>were we out there at midnight? So that certainly yeah,

0:51:23.840 --> 0:51:27.000
<v Speaker 2>And sometimes I'd come up with cover stories and things.

0:51:27.000 --> 0:51:28.960
<v Speaker 2>But there were times, as I said, where some of

0:51:28.960 --> 0:51:31.560
<v Speaker 2>my colleagues were present when things took place where there

0:51:31.600 --> 0:51:33.000
<v Speaker 2>was no getting away from the fact I had to

0:51:33.000 --> 0:51:34.960
<v Speaker 2>give him a good answer, and the good answer is

0:51:34.960 --> 0:51:37.120
<v Speaker 2>always the truth. But I didn't really have to tell

0:51:37.160 --> 0:51:38.239
<v Speaker 2>people that didn't need to know.

0:51:38.560 --> 0:51:40.319
<v Speaker 1>Can you give me one or two examples. You don't

0:51:40.360 --> 0:51:42.160
<v Speaker 1>have to tell me about the specific cases, but one

0:51:42.239 --> 0:51:44.600
<v Speaker 1>or two examples where he led you in the right direction,

0:51:44.920 --> 0:51:46.239
<v Speaker 1>just sort of general examples.

0:51:46.640 --> 0:51:49.640
<v Speaker 2>There was a woman who disappeared at Yale University at

0:51:49.760 --> 0:51:53.560
<v Speaker 2>a young PhD student, and John called me on the

0:51:53.560 --> 0:51:55.440
<v Speaker 2>phone one night. I'm in the presence of my colleagues,

0:51:55.440 --> 0:51:58.960
<v Speaker 2>and he's directed me down this labyrinth of hallways and rooms.

0:51:59.360 --> 0:52:01.719
<v Speaker 2>She was missing for two or three days at that point,

0:52:02.520 --> 0:52:04.920
<v Speaker 2>and we were working under this theory that she was

0:52:04.960 --> 0:52:08.879
<v Speaker 2>somewhere in the building where the perpetrator had somehow got

0:52:08.880 --> 0:52:11.319
<v Speaker 2>her body out and disposed her a landfill or somewhere else.

0:52:11.320 --> 0:52:14.240
<v Speaker 2>So we had no idea. John's on the phone saying

0:52:14.280 --> 0:52:17.239
<v Speaker 2>she's right there, and he's leading me, telling me where

0:52:17.280 --> 0:52:20.200
<v Speaker 2>to go, and my colleagues around me, and he leads

0:52:20.280 --> 0:52:22.120
<v Speaker 2>us to this room and he says, she's right there.

0:52:22.160 --> 0:52:24.040
<v Speaker 2>She's right there. We go in the room and she's not.

0:52:24.520 --> 0:52:26.200
<v Speaker 2>He says, I'm telling you, she's right there. She's in

0:52:26.239 --> 0:52:29.040
<v Speaker 2>the pipes. We're looking in the room and there's nothing there.

0:52:29.040 --> 0:52:30.640
<v Speaker 2>And he says, what's on the right, the other side

0:52:30.680 --> 0:52:32.759
<v Speaker 2>of the wall. Well, there was a men's room. So

0:52:32.800 --> 0:52:35.120
<v Speaker 2>we go, there's nothing. He's I'm Tony, she's right there.

0:52:35.440 --> 0:52:38.080
<v Speaker 2>So John, she's I'm sorry, pal, she's not there. So

0:52:38.120 --> 0:52:40.600
<v Speaker 2>the next day or day after, I I'm driving home

0:52:40.840 --> 0:52:42.759
<v Speaker 2>and I get a call from my friends who's the

0:52:42.840 --> 0:52:44.640
<v Speaker 2>lead agent on it, says, you're not going to believe this.

0:52:45.560 --> 0:52:47.920
<v Speaker 2>After you left, we went through there again with Cadwver

0:52:48.080 --> 0:52:51.399
<v Speaker 2>dogs and dogs got a hit on the men's room.

0:52:51.440 --> 0:52:53.359
<v Speaker 2>There was like a they call it a pipe chase

0:52:53.360 --> 0:52:55.320
<v Speaker 2>and stay in the steel door and they opened it

0:52:55.400 --> 0:52:58.360
<v Speaker 2>up and the perpetrator had taken her body and shoved

0:52:58.360 --> 0:52:59.920
<v Speaker 2>her in the wall between the two rooms.

0:53:00.320 --> 0:53:01.399
<v Speaker 1>You would have never found her.

0:53:01.719 --> 0:53:04.400
<v Speaker 2>Well eventually, I mean the body would have decomposed and

0:53:04.400 --> 0:53:06.440
<v Speaker 2>it would have been found, right, I mean, but it was.

0:53:06.600 --> 0:53:09.320
<v Speaker 2>That was one the case with Little Boy. The crazy

0:53:09.360 --> 0:53:12.640
<v Speaker 2>part about that case was the place where John led

0:53:12.680 --> 0:53:15.480
<v Speaker 2>me at midnight had been searched twice and had been

0:53:15.560 --> 0:53:18.120
<v Speaker 2>checked off that he's not there. So but for John

0:53:18.200 --> 0:53:19.960
<v Speaker 2>taking me back there, he would not have been found.

0:53:20.200 --> 0:53:21.800
<v Speaker 1>Does John do this for anybody else?

0:53:22.320 --> 0:53:24.760
<v Speaker 2>Not law enforcement? You know, his work is more helping

0:53:24.800 --> 0:53:28.200
<v Speaker 2>people through the grieving process and loss, and you know

0:53:28.280 --> 0:53:30.319
<v Speaker 2>it was. I hope people are interested in to read

0:53:30.320 --> 0:53:32.480
<v Speaker 2>the book because they're going to feel like they're a

0:53:32.480 --> 0:53:34.239
<v Speaker 2>part of these cases. They're going to learn a lot

0:53:34.280 --> 0:53:35.440
<v Speaker 2>about John, a lot about me.

0:53:36.000 --> 0:53:40.680
<v Speaker 1>Did you ever have John give you information about your

0:53:40.760 --> 0:53:43.319
<v Speaker 1>life or yourself or the people who have passed in

0:53:43.360 --> 0:53:43.920
<v Speaker 1>your life.

0:53:44.239 --> 0:53:47.399
<v Speaker 2>Yes, accidentally it happened. It happened more than a couple

0:53:47.440 --> 0:53:49.760
<v Speaker 2>of times. And it was the first time it happened.

0:53:49.800 --> 0:53:51.560
<v Speaker 2>I went to him on a case and he was

0:53:51.600 --> 0:53:54.839
<v Speaker 2>getting information, and all of a sudden stuff started coming

0:53:54.880 --> 0:53:58.320
<v Speaker 2>out about my family, which was very powerful, very powerful.

0:53:58.719 --> 0:54:01.360
<v Speaker 1>So your true believer and we're not talking about the

0:54:01.400 --> 0:54:03.880
<v Speaker 1>whole lot of them, clairvoyance mediums and all that, but

0:54:03.920 --> 0:54:05.040
<v Speaker 1>at least in John Edward.

0:54:05.400 --> 0:54:07.759
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, absolutely, he is who he says he is is.

0:54:08.360 --> 0:54:11.440
<v Speaker 2>The things he provided were undeniable. He could not have

0:54:11.520 --> 0:54:14.160
<v Speaker 2>known the information he did over these twenty five years.

0:54:14.320 --> 0:54:16.440
<v Speaker 2>And you know when on my first visit with him,

0:54:16.480 --> 0:54:18.759
<v Speaker 2>it wasn't like, oh my god, I'm all in and

0:54:18.800 --> 0:54:20.840
<v Speaker 2>I believe this guy. I had to take time in

0:54:20.920 --> 0:54:23.600
<v Speaker 2>marrying and say, did I do anything that I typically?

0:54:23.640 --> 0:54:26.040
<v Speaker 2>He knew nothing, zero, nothing nothing.

0:54:37.640 --> 0:54:40.560
<v Speaker 1>If you love historical true crime stories, check out the

0:54:40.600 --> 0:54:43.640
<v Speaker 1>audio versions of my books The Sinners, All About the

0:54:43.680 --> 0:54:46.840
<v Speaker 1>Ghost Club, All That Is Wicked, and American Sherlock, And

0:54:46.920 --> 0:54:50.160
<v Speaker 1>don't forget there are twelve seasons of my historical true

0:54:50.200 --> 0:54:54.680
<v Speaker 1>crime podcast, Tenfold More Wicked right here in this podcast feed,

0:54:54.960 --> 0:54:57.680
<v Speaker 1>scroll back and give them a listen if you haven't already.

0:54:58.120 --> 0:55:01.759
<v Speaker 1>This has been an exactly right Our senior producer is

0:55:01.800 --> 0:55:07.200
<v Speaker 1>Alexis Amrosi. Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This episode

0:55:07.320 --> 0:55:10.759
<v Speaker 1>was mixed by John Bradley. Curtis Heath is our composer.

0:55:11.040 --> 0:55:16.160
<v Speaker 1>Artwork by Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgariff,

0:55:16.239 --> 0:55:20.080
<v Speaker 1>and Danielle Kramer follow Wicked Words on Instagram and Facebook

0:55:20.160 --> 0:55:23.719
<v Speaker 1>at tenfold more Wicked and on Twitter at tenfold more.

0:55:23.960 --> 0:55:25.879
<v Speaker 1>And if you know of a historical crime that could

0:55:25.960 --> 0:55:28.760
<v Speaker 1>use some attention from the crew at tenfold more Wicked,

0:55:28.880 --> 0:55:33.359
<v Speaker 1>email us at info at tenfoldmorewicked dot com. We'll also

0:55:33.440 --> 0:55:43.240
<v Speaker 1>take your suggestions for true crime authors for Wicked Words