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Speaker 1: Hey, it's me Rebecca Greenfield, the host of The Paycheck.

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Speaker 1: This spring, we took a hard look at the pay gap,

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Speaker 1: its history, by it still exists, and what's being done

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Speaker 1: to fix it. If there was one thing we wanted

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Speaker 1: to achieve with our series, it was to get people,

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Speaker 1: especially women, talking, and it worked. After the show ended,

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Speaker 1: the conversation, didn't. We heard from listeners who told us

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Speaker 1: their own stories of pay discrimination and sexism, and here

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Speaker 1: at Bloomberg we kept reporting on and talking about the

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Speaker 1: pay gap and all the other issues we discussed on

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Speaker 1: the show, but we wanted to do more. We wanted

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Speaker 1: to hear for ourselves the conversations we know women are

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Speaker 1: having with each other behind closed doors. So we went

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Speaker 1: out and found some of the smartest women we could

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Speaker 1: think of who work in law, finance, medicine, and even

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Speaker 1: competitive poker, and then we asked them to talk to

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Speaker 1: each other and let us listen in and it was great.

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Speaker 1: They talked about the particular challenges of starting a business

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Speaker 1: as a woman, why motherhood should be a job qualification,

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Speaker 1: and how after decades of working you can still feel

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Speaker 1: unqualified for a job. For the next few weeks, we're

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Speaker 1: going to be bringing those conversations to you. Think of

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Speaker 1: it like a masterclass. First up, we tackle the world

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Speaker 1: of finance. And if there's anybody who knows what it's

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Speaker 1: like as a woman in the highest levels of banking

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Speaker 1: and wealth management, it's Sally Project. She's the former chief

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Speaker 1: financial officer of City Group and she was fired in

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Speaker 1: under what she says, we're gendered circumstances. With her is

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Speaker 1: bi Uncle Caban, who is fresh out of Columbia Business School,

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Speaker 1: and she's trying to change the power dynamics of finance

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Speaker 1: from the inside. My name is Bianca Caban. I lead

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Speaker 1: partnerships at Republic. We are an investment platform that allows

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Speaker 1: startups and blockchain projects to raise capital from retail investors.

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Speaker 1: I'm here to interview Sally crow Check. We actually did

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Speaker 1: a case study about you. Oh my god, it's your school. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so I when yes, when I heard, oh, you know,

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Speaker 1: the opportunity to meet Sally cro Check, I thought, oh

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Speaker 1: my goodness, she's my girl career idol Crush. I'm Sally Crowcheck.

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Speaker 1: I'm the CEO and co founder of Elvest, which is

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Speaker 1: an investing platform for women, and I'm here today with

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Speaker 1: Bianca Caban from Republic. I want to kick it off

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Speaker 1: at the very beginning, Sally, and talk about your early life.

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Speaker 1: And so when you were growing up and you thought

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Speaker 1: about what you wanted to be a princess, did you

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Speaker 1: ever think that you would be a global chief executive? Yeah, totally.

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Speaker 1: When I was growing up, I was like princess or

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Speaker 1: global chief executive. It was going to be one of

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Speaker 1: those two. Hell no, you know, I just it was

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Speaker 1: one step at a time. But um my lessons you

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Speaker 1: know that I learned were I wasn't smarter than anybody else,

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Speaker 1: that I could see, I could work harder than everybody else,

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Speaker 1: and I could be a considered risk taker, you know,

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Speaker 1: in every step of the way. I noticed that the

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Speaker 1: big important calls in one's career could be the contrarian

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Speaker 1: ones that if I could do enough work to get

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Speaker 1: comfortable that nothing is certain, but that the risk I

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Speaker 1: was going to take or I was gonna have our

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Speaker 1: team take, had a better than even chance of working out.

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Speaker 1: I wasn't nervous to take on risk, but I really

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Speaker 1: would much rather have taken the risks that could potentially

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Speaker 1: get me fired than to be in the middle of

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Speaker 1: a pack. If you get fired, pick yourself up. You

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Speaker 1: wipe yourself off. What's the worsting happy? I just got fired?

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Speaker 1: So what you know, go on and find something else.

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Speaker 1: But what about you when you think about your whole

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Speaker 1: career is really in front of you. You're just out

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Speaker 1: of business school, you just started with an interesting, um exciting,

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Speaker 1: innovative startup. What do you see for yourself? I certainly

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Speaker 1: didn't plan anything. If you had asked me, you know,

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Speaker 1: when I was growing up in New York City, that

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Speaker 1: I would ever be exposed to Wall Street, I would

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Speaker 1: say to you, I don't even know what Wall Street

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Speaker 1: is totally, but I think believing in a value system,

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Speaker 1: which is how can I make an impact of on

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Speaker 1: the world, Knowing that I've had access to some of

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Speaker 1: the best educational opportunities, knowing that I've been privileged enough

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Speaker 1: to work on Wall Street. Trusting in that and trusting

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Speaker 1: and serendipity is something I really believe in as well. Well.

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Speaker 1: What's interesting because what you said was what we hear

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Speaker 1: from so many women, and you you really got to mission.

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Speaker 1: Women report to us UM that the number one reason

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Speaker 1: they accept a job is meaning a purpose. The number

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Speaker 1: two and three reasons are how much they can learn

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Speaker 1: who they work with and money is not before Wow,

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Speaker 1: doesn't mean we want to make less money, but it's

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Speaker 1: number four. So did you negotiate your salary when you

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Speaker 1: came into your new job or did you accept what

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Speaker 1: they offered you? I think for me, there were a

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Speaker 1: couple of elements that were important, especially in the startup world.

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Speaker 1: So it's it's salary, It's it's equity, it's opportunity to

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Speaker 1: earn a bonus based on performance, it's you know, benefits.

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Speaker 1: Of course, so I did negotiate, um, but I do

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Speaker 1: think it's important to not be afraid to. Oh, you

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Speaker 1: have to. If they're giving the money to the folks

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Speaker 1: who negotiate and not to the folks who don't, then

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Speaker 1: you can start off with a pay gap that can

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Speaker 1: be tough to make up through the course of your

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Speaker 1: whole career. That's exactly right. One of the classes I

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Speaker 1: took at Columbia Business School is Manage your own Negotiations.

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Speaker 1: What was interesting in that class was a conversation came

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Speaker 1: up on gender differences in negotiating. The debate that they

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Speaker 1: presented to us was so women have certain characteristics that

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Speaker 1: they bring to the negotiating table, should they try to

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Speaker 1: abandon those and just negotiate as if they were a guy,

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Speaker 1: or should they embrace those? What was the answer we

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Speaker 1: were It was split pretty evenly. But I think what

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Speaker 1: I would say, Oh yes, oh yeah, women change, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean I spent my whole freaking career. Women change. Um,

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Speaker 1: be more risk taking, be more assertive, be more like

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Speaker 1: a man, Act like a man, which I guess sounds

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Speaker 1: okay until you realize there's a backlash for doing that.

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Speaker 1: Plus for companies, you know the entire power of diversity,

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Speaker 1: which is so well documented the diverse teams outperform smarter

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Speaker 1: teams and have higher returns on equity and lower risk

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Speaker 1: and greater innovation and greater client engagement and great employe

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Speaker 1: engage and all that good stuff that comes from diversity. Well,

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Speaker 1: doesn't that fall away if we all act like a

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Speaker 1: white guy. Um. One of the things we don't talk

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Speaker 1: about very much is that a reason for the financial

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Speaker 1: crisis is it? One there was very little city, so

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Speaker 1: that was a bunch of people thinking the same. And two, Um,

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Speaker 1: for people of difference in the industry, we had been

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Speaker 1: so taught to act like the majority that we didn't

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Speaker 1: bring our difference to work. I can't tell you how

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Speaker 1: many times when I was mid career on Wall Street

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Speaker 1: and I had female friends who were traders, and their

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Speaker 1: badge of honor was they took more risk than the

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Speaker 1: guys did, so they were more male, that they were

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Speaker 1: more macho than the macho guys. Um, that's not helping

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Speaker 1: anybody have a question for you. Yeah, we're sexually harassed,

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Speaker 1: you know. I hope you keep that long pause in there.

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Speaker 1: I I I can't say that. I. Um, let's see. Thankfully,

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Speaker 1: I haven't experienced over sexual harassment. Having said that, were

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Speaker 1: there little microaggressions that took place? For example, when I

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Speaker 1: was early on in my career on the street, you know,

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Speaker 1: all the guys were We're going to party with the clients,

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Speaker 1: you know, and and bond with them in that way,

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Speaker 1: and it's or maybe you know, you know, the guys

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Speaker 1: were going to go on and run during lunch, and

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Speaker 1: could you man the desk while I while we go

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Speaker 1: for a run together. But I think I think in

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Speaker 1: some ways those small microaggressions might be almost equally as

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Speaker 1: taxing because it's kind of constant, and it's all the time.

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Speaker 1: We're not allowed to complain about it either no, no,

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Speaker 1: you guys are going for you know, you guys are

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Speaker 1: going to a bar without me wah boo hoo. Exactly.

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Speaker 1: And by the way, I can tell I know this,

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Speaker 1: this conversation is uncomfortable, but I think it's an important

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Speaker 1: one for us to have. So yeah, I was totally

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Speaker 1: sexually harassed. Of course, it was the eighties and nineties. Um,

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Speaker 1: it was overt, it was hostile. The goal of it

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Speaker 1: was to drive the women out um from the industry.

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Speaker 1: When I was a junior investment banking associate, I was

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Speaker 1: on a client team that was led by a well

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Speaker 1: known UM CEO of a client company, just sort of

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Speaker 1: one of these you know guys who was always in

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Speaker 1: the newspaper. And uh, he was flying in from the

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Speaker 1: West Coast one evening and invited, you know, called me directly.

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Speaker 1: I thought, oh my goodness, and invited me to come

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Speaker 1: over and go over the numbers with him. And I thought,

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Speaker 1: oh my goodness, I am so good at my job

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Speaker 1: that I am being asked to come go over the

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Speaker 1: numbers with the CEO without the vice president or the

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Speaker 1: director or the managing director or the senior managing director.

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Speaker 1: Look at me, so good at my job, and then

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Speaker 1: he of course invited me to go over those numbers

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Speaker 1: with an eleven o'clock at night in a hotel room. Now,

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Speaker 1: I may have been from the South, but I wasn't

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Speaker 1: a naive lady. And I went to the senior banker

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Speaker 1: at the time at the company I was working at,

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Speaker 1: and it was interesting because he took me off the deal,

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Speaker 1: which at the time I was really grateful for because

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Speaker 1: it took me out of a very difficult situation. However,

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Speaker 1: he put me on an their deal that was not

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Speaker 1: nearly the highest high profile or as lucrative or as

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Speaker 1: interesting as that deal, And at the time, I just thought,

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Speaker 1: isn't that great that I worked for such a forward

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Speaker 1: looking company? And yet my bonus was lower that year

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Speaker 1: because I didn't have the revenues associated to my name

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Speaker 1: for something that was completely not my fault. And I

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Speaker 1: think that's what I'm loving Bianco about your generation is

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Speaker 1: changing because my generation we looked away. I mean, if

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Speaker 1: if a woman sued a company for harassment, everybody stepped

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Speaker 1: back and everybody looked away. And your generation is coming together.

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Speaker 1: So when Susan Fowler went after Uber went after Travis

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Speaker 1: and Uber, women came around her on social media in

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Speaker 1: a way we couldn't have been my generation and took

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Speaker 1: him out, I think, and some of this driven by

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Speaker 1: the election of Trump and recognition that what we, what

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Speaker 1: my generation has done wasn't enough. Is you y'all are

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Speaker 1: coming together and banding together and using your voice in

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Speaker 1: a way that we one didn't have the means too

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Speaker 1: because we didn't have social media, but too you know,

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Speaker 1: frankly just didn't have the guts, you know, just you know,

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Speaker 1: just didn't do it as an entrepreneur building your company

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Speaker 1: the exact way you would ever want it to be.

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Speaker 1: How can you institutionalize basically the opposite of gender bias?

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Speaker 1: Do you do? You write it out? You know, we haven't. No,

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Speaker 1: Here's what I would say. Um, First of all, I

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Speaker 1: think almost every CEO in the country of big companies

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Speaker 1: believes in the power of diversity today, and our progress

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Speaker 1: on women getting the CEO jobs has stalled because middle

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Speaker 1: management is where diversity goes to die. What I have

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Speaker 1: found as CEO, even when I'm like, hey, we're a

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Speaker 1: company's gonna you know, if you know, close the gender

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Speaker 1: investing gap and we're all about women and we're gonna

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Speaker 1: be all about diversity, and I still find that my leadership.

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Speaker 1: You know, members of the team come back and like,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna hire this person like myself. You know what

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Speaker 1: I do? You no, you're not. And my co founder,

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Speaker 1: you gotta be kidding me. We have to let our

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Speaker 1: managers manage. And I'm just like, I don't even care,

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Speaker 1: right we you know, if they don't want to work

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Speaker 1: at a diverse company, they can, we can all go

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Speaker 1: find other places to work. But I will not allow

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Speaker 1: us to talk ourselves into a homogeneous company. So I've

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Speaker 1: and I we were down in Latin America visiting clients

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Speaker 1: doing business reviews, and they were probably eight guys with

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Speaker 1: me traveling and we stayed out late one night in

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Speaker 1: Brazil and they want to clock in the morning. I

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Speaker 1: had to get up super early next day to fly

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Speaker 1: to Argentina. Probably had to be down in the lobby

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Speaker 1: at five am. And we get down there and the

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Speaker 1: guys are like, I just woke up. I just woke up.

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Speaker 1: I was a sleep ten minutes ago. I'm exhausted. I'm

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Speaker 1: like I've been up for one hour because the hair

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Speaker 1: and makeup, and then I began to think about the

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Speaker 1: toll that takes. And so the math is if hair

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Speaker 1: and makeup takes me fifteen extra minutes a day, which

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Speaker 1: is not true. It's way more. Um, I'm high maintenance,

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Speaker 1: but it it's fifteen minutes a day, it's an hour

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Speaker 1: and fifteen minutes a week, and it's five hours a month,

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Speaker 1: and it's sixty hours a year. So that's one full

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Speaker 1: work week a year for hair and makeup. Haven't even

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Speaker 1: shaved my leg yet. Yeah. I think what that shows

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Speaker 1: is as a woman, we inherently have a lot going on.

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Speaker 1: We become incredibly good at multitasking. Things like motherhood should

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Speaker 1: be considered a skill set, a life skill set that's

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Speaker 1: actually enhancing a woman's ability to execute. It's not exactly,

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Speaker 1: and this drives me berserk. So I'm gonna go back

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Speaker 1: again to when I was CFO, and I remember being

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Speaker 1: on a panel of other CFOs and they were all

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Speaker 1: male and I was a female, and I got the

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Speaker 1: inevitable question from a woman in the audience about my

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Speaker 1: work life balance, and you just sort of felt like

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Speaker 1: that's fantastic. Um, I've now made CFO of one of

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Speaker 1: the largest companies around, and it's still not good enough

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Speaker 1: because in addition to doing this, I have to be

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Speaker 1: I have to have balance, which of course is absolutely

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Speaker 1: effing impossible when you're doing these big jobs. And rather

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Speaker 1: than recognizing work life balance for what it is, which

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Speaker 1: is a privilege, a privilege that our sisters who are

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Speaker 1: cleaning the hotel rooms in this city today do not have, instead,

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Speaker 1: you know, society has sort of put it upon us

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Speaker 1: that it's a requirement. Recently, at Elvest, we changed our

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Speaker 1: parental leave policy, our family leave policy, so that UM caregivers,

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Speaker 1: primary caregivers, and secondary secondary caregivers get the same parental leave.

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Speaker 1: Why because the research tells us that if the primary caregiver,

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Speaker 1: in most cases, the women UM takes a parental leave

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Speaker 1: and the father doesn't, then we get mommy tracked. But

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Speaker 1: if both take them, then it becomes normal. You can't

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Speaker 1: mommy track your whole freaking company. And so I would

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Speaker 1: put forth with real data and statistics that diversity outperforms meritocracy.

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Speaker 1: Part of it is like it's just like freaking do it, right,

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Speaker 1: if you really believe in its CEO, just freaking do

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Speaker 1: it and quit with you know, all these sort of glance,

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Speaker 1: you know, ways, this sort of glance off the problem,

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Speaker 1: just say, we're just it is just important enough for

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Speaker 1: us to have a diverse company. We're just gonna do it.

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Speaker 1: So tell me why did you become an entrepreneur. You

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Speaker 1: were building a very successful at the beginnings of a

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Speaker 1: successful career on Wall Street, and you made the decision

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Speaker 1: to go the more entrepreneurial, the riskier route. What was

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Speaker 1: behind that? At the end of my sin down Wall Street,

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Speaker 1: I was fortunate enough to be exposed to emerging markets.

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Speaker 1: So as part of my work at the Merchant Bank,

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Speaker 1: I focused on building our first investment vehicle investing in

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Speaker 1: financial services in Sub Saharan Africa, and I was able

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Speaker 1: to travel to the continent and be exposed to economies

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Speaker 1: some of the fastest growing economies in the world, including Nigeria, Rwanda.

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Speaker 1: And what they what they were doing was they were

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Speaker 1: consciously involving women in every single facet, whether it was

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Speaker 1: in government, business, and and every facet of their society

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Speaker 1: because they recognize that in order to move their country forward,

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Speaker 1: they needed to activate their entire population. Women reinvest ninety

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Speaker 1: times at the rate that men do. They are less

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Speaker 1: likely to default on their loans. They control the majority

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Speaker 1: of purchasing power, They make all the financial decisions in

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Speaker 1: their family. They are little many asset allocators of their family.

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Speaker 1: The allocate assets into finance, into health and education, et cetera.

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Speaker 1: And so if you can put more money in the

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Speaker 1: pocket of women, then you can actually inject more money

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Speaker 1: into the economy overall because they will spend it. And

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Speaker 1: I said, investing in women is powerful. And I wanted

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Speaker 1: to take those same tactics and focus on the Caribbean

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Speaker 1: and Puerto Rico, where my grandparents are from, but also

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Speaker 1: places in the US like the Bronx where I grew up,

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Speaker 1: or Detroit or Miami, these high growing cities that are

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Speaker 1: in need of new revitalization tools. I worked on building

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Speaker 1: an entrepreneurship accelerator for women owned businesses in Puerto Rico

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Speaker 1: as a tool for economic revitalization. So that was that

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Speaker 1: was Access Latina, the nonprofit accelerator that I started. And

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Speaker 1: again it was really just this tool that I thought, well,

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Speaker 1: investing in women, if this is working in places like

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Speaker 1: ups here in Africa, why can't work right here in

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Speaker 1: mainland US. And so that's what drove me. And then

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Speaker 1: ultimately went on to business school to focus on learning

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Speaker 1: about early stage investing. What I would love to understand

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Speaker 1: from U. Sally is, obviously you're building a financial services

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Speaker 1: technology company, a wealth management platform for women. What was

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Speaker 1: your experience as an entrepreneur with with getting investment into

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Speaker 1: your company in terms of female investor? And how do

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Speaker 1: you think we can, as women start to invest in

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Speaker 1: each other more, put our money where our mouth is

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Speaker 1: kind of thing, or take an actionable kind of step

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Speaker 1: into furthering the pie for for everyone through investment. Money

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Speaker 1: is power. We all know this. In a capital society,

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Speaker 1: men have more money than women do. Therefore men have

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Speaker 1: more power than women do. If you can do one

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Speaker 1: thing to improve society or community, it is to get

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Speaker 1: more money to women. When women have build wealth, they

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Speaker 1: put nine of it back into their community and back

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Speaker 1: into their families. When women have more money, they give

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Speaker 1: a higher percentage of their wealth to nonprofits than men do. Um.

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Speaker 1: So I'm spending this part of my career working to

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Speaker 1: close a money gap that I didn't even really recognize existed,

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Speaker 1: which is the gender investing gap. For years, our industry,

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Speaker 1: Wall Street, the investing industry blamed women for not investing

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Speaker 1: as much as men do. They're so risk averse, right,

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Speaker 1: they need a financial relationship, they need more financial education,

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Speaker 1: Rather than ever stopping and saying, you know what, maybe

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Speaker 1: we the investing industry which is mail, Maybe we're doing

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Speaker 1: a better job for the guys than we are for

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Speaker 1: the women. Maybe we can build something that motivates women

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Speaker 1: to invest. Part of elvest Um is the option and

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Speaker 1: opportunity to invest in other women. Boy, that seems weird, right,

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Speaker 1: Why is that a good thing to do? I mean,

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Speaker 1: I just want to invest in the best, right, I

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Speaker 1: just want to invest in the best stocks, and the

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Speaker 1: best companies and the best categories. Yes, and today we're

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Speaker 1: all investing in agenda. We're not thinking about it, but

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Speaker 1: we are. We're investing in men, and so all we're

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Speaker 1: wanting to do at elvest is if someone is interested

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Speaker 1: in it, moves some portion of their portfolio to invest

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Speaker 1: in women, Which is mentioned earlier, Companies with diverse leadership

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Speaker 1: teams tend to outperform less diverse leadership teams. Women pay

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Speaker 1: back their loans to a greater degree than men. I

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Speaker 1: can go on and on, but I personally believe that

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Speaker 1: you can earn competitive returns lower risk by diversifying, just

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Speaker 1: as you do by every other you know, by country,

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Speaker 1: by area the world, by type of investment. And by

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Speaker 1: the way, it is not at all about excluding white men.

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Speaker 1: It is about including women and that we just need

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Speaker 1: to keep coming back to the economy can grow, the

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Speaker 1: markets can go up by being inclusive and bringing more

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Speaker 1: people in. It's a win win win win win um.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, I got all the stories right. I went

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Speaker 1: to the mail vcs and did the you know, but

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Speaker 1: don't their husbands manage their money for them? And you know,

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Speaker 1: why do women need there? I mean, there's just a

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Speaker 1: freaking article yesterday. Why do women need? Do women need

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Speaker 1: their own investing platform? And of course everybody but you know,

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Speaker 1: it's like, no, they don't. I'm like, obviously they do.

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Speaker 1: If they didn't, why you know, why are they give

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Speaker 1: you seventy one percent of their money in cash? You

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Speaker 1: could say, no, they don't all you want, but just

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Speaker 1: look at the facts, and the facts are we don't

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Speaker 1: invest as much as men do, so obviously something needs

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Speaker 1: to change. Listening to Sally and Bianca, it's clear that

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Speaker 1: there's an awareness of all the hurdles women face in

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Speaker 1: the workplace, but that awareness isn't enough. Like Sally said,

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Speaker 1: despite all the talk of diversity initiatives and general agreement

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Speaker 1: among business leaders that a diverse workforce leads to better

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Speaker 1: financial outcomes, the numbers for women in the best paying

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Speaker 1: jobs aren't great, and they're actually getting worse. With Indra Nui,

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Speaker 1: the CEO of Pepsi, stepping down from her post this year,

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Speaker 1: CEOs of the biggest US companies are now wider and

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Speaker 1: more male than they've been in a long time, reversing

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Speaker 1: the modest gains made on diversity earlier this century. In

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Speaker 1: recent months, female CEOs have also stepped down from the

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Speaker 1: Campbell Soup Company, Mattel and Tulett Packard. This is all

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Speaker 1: despite the fact that more women than men are in

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Speaker 1: college degrees now and women make up almost fifty of

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Speaker 1: entry level hires. So why, given everything we know and

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Speaker 1: everything companies claim to be doing, are women still not

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Speaker 1: making it to the highest and highest paid echelons of

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Speaker 1: the business world. Because, like Sally said, middle management is

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Speaker 1: where diversity goes to die, and that has a lot

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Speaker 1: to do with motherhood. Successful women are expected to have

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Speaker 1: work life balance while men are allowed to just work.

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Speaker 1: That was true when Sally was coming up, and Bianco

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Speaker 1: will likely face the same double standard as she progresses.

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Speaker 1: That is, unless the workplace adapts. Thanks for listening. If

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Speaker 1: you like our show, or if you have anything else

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Speaker 1: to add to the conversation, please head on over to

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Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts to rate, review, and subscribe. This show was

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Speaker 1: edited by Jillian Goodman, produced by Liz Smith, and hosted

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Speaker 1: by me Rebecca Greenfield. Francesca Levi moderated today's conversation. We

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Speaker 1: also have production help from Janet Paskin and Cover Corus.

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Speaker 1: Francesca Levi is Bloomberg's head of Podcasts. We'll be back

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Speaker 1: next week with more conversations.