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Speaker 1: With lockdowns in tense elections and seemingly bad news everywhere,

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Speaker 1: we thought we'd lighten things up over here in the

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Speaker 1: Broken Record universe and brings some Christmas cheer early with

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Speaker 1: none other than Leslie Odom Junior, whose new release is

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Speaker 1: the Christmas Album. This is actually Leslie's second Christmas album,

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Speaker 1: plus He's released several vocal jazz albums over the last

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Speaker 1: few years, but he's best known for his Grammy and

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Speaker 1: Tony Award winning performance as Aaron Burr in Hamilton. Leslie

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Speaker 1: spoke to Bruce Headlum about his career on stage and

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Speaker 1: in music, about his all time favorite Christmas album, which

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Speaker 1: is a touchstone of nineties R and B. He also

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Speaker 1: talks about how playing a founding and father as a

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Speaker 1: black man was an exercise in empathy, and he shares

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Speaker 1: a lesson he learned thanks to the incomparable talents of

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Speaker 1: Natkin Coole and Sammy Davis Jr. This is Broken Record

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Speaker 1: liner notes for the digital age. I'm justin Mischian. Here's

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Speaker 1: Bruce Dlam with Leslie Odom Junior. So you're in a

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Speaker 1: strange point in your career because you've had a long career.

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Speaker 1: People might know you from Rent. People might know you

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Speaker 1: from television, but people really got to know you as

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Speaker 1: Aaron Burr in Hamilton. Yeah, but now you have this

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Speaker 1: music career. And I've had this twice recently where people said,

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Speaker 1: oh my god, I'm listening to this guy, Leslie Odom Junior,

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Speaker 1: and did you know he was also in Hamilton. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're like you know when people used to say, you know,

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Speaker 1: Paul McCartney was in a band before Wings, you know

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Speaker 1: that's you now? Oh man, Thank goodness, no complaints. Because

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Speaker 1: I came out to Los Angeles almost twenty years ago

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Speaker 1: after graduating from college, and I was doing television and

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Speaker 1: my goal really was simple. I I was trying to

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Speaker 1: make a living as an artist, and that meant taking

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Speaker 1: almost any job on television that people would offer me,

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Speaker 1: which I was auditioning for lots and lots of very

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Speaker 1: silly sitcoms, very you know, dubious dramas, and I could

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Speaker 1: have gotten one of those. I didn't. I didn't get

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Speaker 1: any of the one that I really really wanted. But

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Speaker 1: I could have gotten one of those, and I could

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Speaker 1: have been known for some ridiculous catchphrase or for you know,

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Speaker 1: pulling some stupid face to make people laugh. But the

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Speaker 1: worst of what I get having been a part of

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Speaker 1: the original company of Hamilton is like people saying, pardon me,

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Speaker 1: are you Aaron Burrser? You know so I'll take that,

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Speaker 1: and I'll also yes, it is. It is my job,

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Speaker 1: it is my mission now to continue to make sure

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Speaker 1: that that is not the peak, that it's a peak

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Speaker 1: in my career. But that but that, Yeah, we continue

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Speaker 1: to I continue to push myself and surprise people, surprise

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Speaker 1: myself and just keep digging. Will you actually turned down

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Speaker 1: a TV show for Hamilton? I did. In fact, I

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Speaker 1: think you'd signed the contract and you would right to

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Speaker 1: the head of the network and say, please, please, I

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Speaker 1: have to do this other thing. Yeah. And they were

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Speaker 1: really nice about it. They were his name was his

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Speaker 1: name out, I'll give him credit forever. His name is

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Speaker 1: Bob Greenblatt. He runs HBO. Now, But I did. I

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Speaker 1: went to Bob and I said, I know, thank you

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Speaker 1: very much. You guys have given me a contract for

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Speaker 1: guaranteed half a million dollars, and man, that's nice, but

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Speaker 1: I really want to do this off Broadway show, this

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Speaker 1: hip hop musical about the founding fathers. Will you let

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Speaker 1: me out of this contract, and he looked at me

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Speaker 1: like I was out of my mind, and he said, sure,

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Speaker 1: I'll let you out of Are you that's what you

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Speaker 1: want to do? Really? And I said yes, and he

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Speaker 1: let me out. But it wasn't a point that you

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Speaker 1: were feeling a little too comfortable doing TV. You felt

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Speaker 1: it was it was safe and you wanted you wanted

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Speaker 1: to take a risk. I did. While I didn't know

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Speaker 1: what America would feel. I didn't know if the show

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Speaker 1: would find an audio, but I knew what I felt

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Speaker 1: about Hamilton. You know, it was it was undeniable to

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Speaker 1: me how it was changing me from the inside because

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Speaker 1: at that point I had been involved in development for

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Speaker 1: a few years and this, this little show was not

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Speaker 1: only making me a better actor and a better performer,

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Speaker 1: you know, it was making me a better husband. It

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Speaker 1: was making me a better friend. It was making me

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Speaker 1: a better citizen, like you know, it was making me

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Speaker 1: a better human being. And listen, the TV show was nice,

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Speaker 1: but it wasn't doing that. You know, when I'm talking

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Speaker 1: to young people, I say this, it's really important that

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Speaker 1: you know what you're in it for. You really have

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Speaker 1: to know what you're in it for. Whatever, whatever game

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Speaker 1: you're playing, whether it's finance, so whether it's medicine or

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Speaker 1: your nurse, whatever, whatever, you know, what are you in

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Speaker 1: it for? Because when the thing shows up, you want

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Speaker 1: to recognize it. Don't miss it when it comes, you know.

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Speaker 1: And so if you're in it for the dough, if

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Speaker 1: you're in it for the promotion, if you're in it

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Speaker 1: for validation or chicks or a great car, whatever it

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Speaker 1: is that you at the end of the day, like

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Speaker 1: I got in it for this reason, know it so

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Speaker 1: that you don't miss it when it comes. And Hamilton,

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Speaker 1: you know, a piece of art like that, That is

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Speaker 1: why I got in it. Rent was the show that

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Speaker 1: brought me to the theater. And you know, my favorite

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Speaker 1: quote about art and artists is that an artist spends

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Speaker 1: their entire life trying to get back to the place

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Speaker 1: where their heart was first opened up. And that's what

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Speaker 1: Hamilton did for me. It made me feel like that

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Speaker 1: thirteen year old kid again. That's what I was in

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Speaker 1: it for. So it didn't matter if it was half

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Speaker 1: a million dollars or a million dollars or eight million dollars.

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Speaker 1: I was not walking away from the reason why I

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Speaker 1: started on the path in the first place. Was there

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Speaker 1: a moment with Hamilton where you thought, Okay, this actually

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Speaker 1: is going to succeed. It is I don't mean artistically,

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Speaker 1: that this is going to be bigger? Like, was there

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Speaker 1: a point you're like, oh, this this is going to

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Speaker 1: work now. I don't remember the exact day, but it

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Speaker 1: was pretty soon after we opened on Broadway, and you know,

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Speaker 1: we had the confirmation of those box office receipts, you know,

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Speaker 1: you had you had the confirmation of the of the

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Speaker 1: record breaking advanced sales. Because that that's what that's what

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Speaker 1: matters in the commercial theater and the commercial theater, commercial

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Speaker 1: success is what matters. And once we were confirmed that

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Speaker 1: it was going going to be that, I had to

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Speaker 1: wait until then because the business is littered with great

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Speaker 1: art and artists that were not appreciated or celebrated in

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Speaker 1: their time. You know, Stephen Sondheim is known, you know,

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Speaker 1: um revered as one of the great may possibly the

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Speaker 1: greatest songwriter for the American theater. You know, he's brilliant.

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Speaker 1: And most to Sondheim shows, including shows like West Hide

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Speaker 1: Story and these shows were not successful in their original run.

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Speaker 1: They ran a year, a year and a half some

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Speaker 1: of them, you know, a lot of them. They just

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Speaker 1: people just didn't they weren't feeling them in their time.

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Speaker 1: So I didn't know if Hamilton would fall into that

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Speaker 1: category even once we went to Broadway, so I had

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Speaker 1: to wait with my fingers crossed. Now, I'm sure you've

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Speaker 1: heard this many times. I saw Hamilton's first at the Public,

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Speaker 1: and then I saw it several times because Lynn Manuel

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Speaker 1: Miranda actually wrote for me when I was at the

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Speaker 1: New York Times. But I remember being there at the Public.

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Speaker 1: You came out and there was a ripple in the

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Speaker 1: audience and people said, oh my god, that guy is

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Speaker 1: a star. I don't mean you're out shining the production,

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Speaker 1: but there's just something about when you came out. I

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Speaker 1: think people just kind of felt, I don't know, there's

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Speaker 1: a kind of electricity that you don't often feel at

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Speaker 1: the theater for you. Was there that kind of personal

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Speaker 1: validation right away? Well, I mean, thank you for saying that.

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Speaker 1: I think that as a young person, the only way

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Speaker 1: you really build self esteem is you got to prove

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Speaker 1: certain things to yourself. You know, we all have an

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Speaker 1: idea about what we're capable of, what we might be

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Speaker 1: capable of if someone just gave us the opportunity. If

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Speaker 1: we just had the chance to show, to prove, I

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Speaker 1: think I could be a contender, you know. And it's

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Speaker 1: all theory until you make something, or until someone invites

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Speaker 1: you to make something, you know, it's it's all conjecture.

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Speaker 1: And what Lynn did for a room of people, for

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Speaker 1: a room of mostly black and brown people, was he

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Speaker 1: gave us the evidence of what was of what we

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Speaker 1: suspected about ourselves. He let us prove it firstly to

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Speaker 1: ourselves that we are capable of more than we are

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Speaker 1: being asked to do most of the time. And yes,

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Speaker 1: and then we got to stand on stage and show

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Speaker 1: little black and brown children who looked like us, that

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Speaker 1: same thing. And we got to show a little you know,

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Speaker 1: not for nothing, we got to show little white kids too,

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Speaker 1: what you know that that you know? I say, of course,

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Speaker 1: I was very lucky to have the education that I

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Speaker 1: had at Carnegie Mellon University, for instance, you know, where

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Speaker 1: where the majority of my classmates were white. But you

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Speaker 1: know who also benefited from my presence at Carnegie Mellon University.

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Speaker 1: My white classmates also benefited from a diverse environment, from

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Speaker 1: from sharing across you know, cultural boundaries, and having friends

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Speaker 1: and collaborators that don't only look like them. So it

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Speaker 1: was it's a really it's a gift that Lynn has

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Speaker 1: given the world this show. So we want to talk

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Speaker 1: about Christmas albums, let's do it. And I want to

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Speaker 1: know first what Christmas music did you have growing up? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I grew up in the album era, so I remember

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Speaker 1: the Christmas albums we had that got pulled to the

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Speaker 1: front of the stack. What what was your Christmas music

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Speaker 1: growing up? The one that left the biggest impression on me.

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Speaker 1: I have to say, I hope your audience is aware

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Speaker 1: of it because it's a it is a classic. I

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Speaker 1: grew up in Philadelphia at the time where you know,

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Speaker 1: in Philly you couldn't get bigger than Boys to Men.

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Speaker 1: I went to the same high school as Boys to Men.

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Speaker 1: They were older than me, but Boys to Men was huge.

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Speaker 1: You know. They they dressed like us, they talked like us,

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Speaker 1: They they wore us, you know, on the national stage.

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Speaker 1: And at one of their peaks that you know, peak

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Speaker 1: power for them, they put out this beautiful Christmas record.

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Speaker 1: If you have not heard it, go listen to it.

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Speaker 1: It is it is like it's a shining example of

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Speaker 1: R and B. Yes, that's rhythm and blues, but there's

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Speaker 1: that joke and dream Girls, you know, rough and black.

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Speaker 1: I mean like it is, it is, you know, the

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Speaker 1: black contribution. Part of our contribution to American culture in

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Speaker 1: this and music is R and B. It's one of

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Speaker 1: our contributions. And yeah, this is it's just a beautiful record, man.

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Speaker 1: So the Boys to Men album was like the first

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Speaker 1: Christmas album that was mine, that wasn't my parents, you know,

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Speaker 1: because my parents were listening to the Jackson five and

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Speaker 1: they were listening and that King Cole of course, and

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Speaker 1: they were listening to you know, the classics in that way.

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Speaker 1: But if you were coming of age at any point

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Speaker 1: in the nineties, it's nostalgic too, and the same way

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Speaker 1: that Mariah's is nostalgic. You know, it reminds you of

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Speaker 1: a certain kind of pure R and B. You know,

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Speaker 1: that was not over sexualized, and it's like there's like

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Speaker 1: a wholesome quality to it. Who knew that the nineties

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Speaker 1: had had a wholesome patina, but you listen to that,

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Speaker 1: that album and you'll hear it. Well, I'm older than you,

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Speaker 1: So for us, it was I think Ray Charles, I

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Speaker 1: don't know if you know his Christmas album, I don't

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Speaker 1: know the Ray Charles Christmas album. Oh you gotta get

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Speaker 1: the Ray Charles Christmas House is what is um? Baby

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Speaker 1: It's cold outside? Is that? Or was that a single?

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Speaker 1: That was a single? But usually when you buy it now,

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Speaker 1: I think with Betty Carter, that's right. They tack it

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Speaker 1: on the end, and that's a great version. It's the

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Speaker 1: only version I know. Baby. It's people, you know, for

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Speaker 1: good reason, they are trying to get that song canceled.

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Speaker 1: But but you can't cancel Betty Carter and Ray Charles,

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Speaker 1: give me a break. No. No. Part of the problem though,

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Speaker 1: is these you know, you've done your own albums, You've

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Speaker 1: written a lot of your own songs, you've taken on

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Speaker 1: some classics. But when you do Christmas songs, they're so

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Speaker 1: locked in people's memories. It's just so much attached to it.

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Speaker 1: I just want to talk a bit about how do

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Speaker 1: you sit down and say what am I going to

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Speaker 1: bring to this that people are gonna remember? Are they

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Speaker 1: just gonna have Andy Williams going through their head? How

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Speaker 1: did you do that with both albums, but mainly this album, Well,

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Speaker 1: we had the practice of having done it once before,

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Speaker 1: and that that first Christmas album was very challenging number one,

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Speaker 1: because we were so limited in our resources at that time.

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Speaker 1: That was the first album I made post hand. So

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Speaker 1: I made it I think the summer that I left

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Speaker 1: Hamilton and me and my manager we just really didn't

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Speaker 1: We didn't know anybody. We were not really in the

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Speaker 1: music industry yet, you know, so we we were very

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Speaker 1: limited in our budget and in our resources. And so

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Speaker 1: when you're limited in that way, of course, parameters are

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Speaker 1: always great for art. Intention is important. Intention becomes very important.

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Speaker 1: And I was I was like, okay, well, what we

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Speaker 1: don't have in bells and whistles, you know, we have

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Speaker 1: to come from a sincere place, which is harder than

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Speaker 1: it sounds, because you think, you know, I'll just I'll

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Speaker 1: sing Silent Night and I'll sing these Oh Holy I'll

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Speaker 1: sing these songs that I've known them my whole life.

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Speaker 1: But you go, when I go to listen back, nobody's

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Speaker 1: more critical on on my voice than I and it

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Speaker 1: just didn't sound honest. It took it. I recorded that

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Speaker 1: first album probably at least two full times, you know,

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Speaker 1: just top to bottom, because it it I had to

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Speaker 1: hear the sincerity, and when it goes Christmas, it can

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Speaker 1: go Sacharin. It can go corny real quick. You know,

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Speaker 1: there's something about I don't know, the lights and the

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Speaker 1: trees and the presence that you know, we yeah, it

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Speaker 1: just it just goes corny. And I just didn't want that.

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Speaker 1: So anyway, we built on that with this record. Having

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Speaker 1: recorded that album and then performing those songs live for

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Speaker 1: a few years now, we didn't have that that same challenge.

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Speaker 1: I can hear it right away, you know. When I

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Speaker 1: go to start these songs. Always what I do when

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Speaker 1: I'm covering any song, if it's a jazz song or

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Speaker 1: a pop song, I started that original melody. I try

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Speaker 1: not to start at one of the covers that I've heard.

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Speaker 1: I try to find the original version and let me,

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Speaker 1: let me learn that original melody, let me hear what

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Speaker 1: those initial instincts were from the writer and from the composer,

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Speaker 1: and then we take it from there. We you know, im,

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Speaker 1: it's always a collaboration. I may have idea is but

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Speaker 1: Tommy King as a brilliant pianist who was instrumental in

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Speaker 1: that first album, that first album. People talk all the

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Speaker 1: time about the piano solo on my favorite things. That's

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Speaker 1: all Tommy King. That's just his beautiful mind and talent.

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Speaker 1: But he we worked with Tommy again on this and

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Speaker 1: then also we took the now, all these years later,

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Speaker 1: the resources and the and the budget we've we've been

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Speaker 1: able to wrestle from the record company, and we were

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Speaker 1: able to make something that sounded a little fuller, a

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Speaker 1: little more joy a lot more joyful. Actually, we took

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Speaker 1: all the things we'd learned making mister m that that

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Speaker 1: original album that I have outu and we you know

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Speaker 1: call got the band back together as it were, and

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Speaker 1: made this one on the new album you do uh

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Speaker 1: it's beginning to look a lot like Christmas, and you

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Speaker 1: do it in a very different way. Now people know

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Speaker 1: that song from Bing Crosby, they know it from Perry

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Speaker 1: Como I think did a big version of Michael Boublet

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Speaker 1: of course. So yeah, so when you sat down to

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Speaker 1: do it, what were you what were you thinking? Were

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Speaker 1: you thinking I can't do it like them? Or just

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Speaker 1: like get them out of my head? Somehow we went

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Speaker 1: we went back to that original arrangement and we and

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Speaker 1: we recorded it that way. And then this one I

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Speaker 1: have to give you know, hats off to Joey. Joseph

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Speaker 1: Abat my producer. He heard that bassa, he just heard it.

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Speaker 1: He was like, Leslie, you know, can we try it

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Speaker 1: in a bassa? And I'm sure you know, I'll try

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Speaker 1: it anyway. And so the band we had a trio

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Speaker 1: in the studio that day, all COVID safe, we'd all

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Speaker 1: taken our taken our tests, and we were all you know,

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Speaker 1: separated in the studio. We you know, we never got

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Speaker 1: within six feet of one another. But something locked in

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Speaker 1: with the bassa and we know enough now to trust

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Speaker 1: those Quincy calls goose bumps. You know, God's lightning rod,

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Speaker 1: you know, I mean, you know, when you when you

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Speaker 1: get a little bit of that goes a long way. Man.

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Speaker 1: If you get if you there's that's something to follow.

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Speaker 1: And I'll tell you when we when we recorded the

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Speaker 1: Perry Como version, it wasn't no goosebumps. It sounded fine,

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Speaker 1: it sounded nice, but yeah, you're like, uh, do we

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Speaker 1: need another version? And it had we had Joseph not

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Speaker 1: had the bossa idea, the song probably wouldn't have made

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Speaker 1: the cut to the record. But once we locked into

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Speaker 1: that bossa, you get the goosebumps, and you know, we

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Speaker 1: found the right key, and you study, it's beginning to

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Speaker 1: look a lot like Christmas and everywhere you go ain't

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Speaker 1: gonna look at the five and ten listening once again,

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Speaker 1: candy canes and silver lanes or glow. It's speaking and

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Speaker 1: to look a lot, you know, like when once that

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Speaker 1: bossa rhythm kicked in, and just different instincts. You know,

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Speaker 1: I get different instincts as a singer, as an artist,

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Speaker 1: and um, I don't judge those things, you know, I don't.

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Speaker 1: I don't judge those I think art, when it's working,

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Speaker 1: it exists on a conscious and a subconscious level. So

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Speaker 1: there's things when when you're in flow, there's things you're doing.

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Speaker 1: You're bringing up childhood stuff, your childhood inspirations and instincts.

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Speaker 1: It's you know, we're made up of so much stuff.

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Speaker 1: So it flows down in the bassa and we do it.

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Speaker 1: You know, I don't know not much. Three or four times,

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Speaker 1: you know, with the musician's top to bottom it works,

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Speaker 1: and then I do come back and record the vocal

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Speaker 1: a few more time until I like it. And that

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Speaker 1: once it went into the bassa field. The next thing

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Speaker 1: was just to really figure out the phrasing of each

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Speaker 1: one of it because it's the different time signature, So

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Speaker 1: the phrasing has to change in a way that feels natural,

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Speaker 1: in a way that doesn't ever take you out of it.

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Speaker 1: Because people have a version of that tune that that

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Speaker 1: that sits really well with them. If you're going to

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Speaker 1: take them out of that groove, if you're going to

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Speaker 1: take them out of that zone, you to make sure

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Speaker 1: it goes down just as easy. We'll be back with

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Speaker 1: Leslie right after this break. Here's more of Bruce Hedlum's

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Speaker 1: conversation with Leslie Odom Jr. The other song I want

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Speaker 1: to ask you about, and it was on your first

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Speaker 1: Christmas album before we come back to your second one,

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Speaker 1: was the Christmas Song because I can't think of a

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Speaker 1: song that has a more authoritative version than the Nat

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Speaker 1: King Cole. Yeah, and that's a high, high bar. How

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Speaker 1: do you tackle something that Nat King cold it? Well,

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Speaker 1: we when we went in to get our record deal

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Speaker 1: and went into ask Curve to meet with Stephen Greenberg,

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Speaker 1: we said we wanted to make the kind of music

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Speaker 1: that Nat King Cole might make today, and we didn't

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Speaker 1: we didn't really know what that meant. But we knew

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Speaker 1: it sounded good and we knew you know, it got

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Speaker 1: a to give you money. Yeah, that's all it needed

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Speaker 1: to be. I think really we once we made mister,

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Speaker 1: you know, that album of all original music, I looked

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Speaker 1: at Joseph and I was like, we That's why intentions

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Speaker 1: are important. The intention. That was our intention from the

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Speaker 1: very beginning. Even we did, you know, we didn't know

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Speaker 1: how we were going to get there. We didn't quite

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Speaker 1: know what that meant. But that's what we've been after,

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Speaker 1: and so I learned a lot. It was challenging, you know,

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Speaker 1: but I've learned a lot trying to be Nat King Cole.

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Speaker 1: Kind of the first thing you learned is that I'm

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Speaker 1: never going to be Nat King Cole. You know, he

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Speaker 1: was everything he was in He synthesized his time, everything

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Speaker 1: about his time made him. Do you know? There was

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Speaker 1: a something radical about Nat because to be that unflappable,

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Speaker 1: to be that cool in the midst of the climate

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Speaker 1: of this country, to come in that package beautiful yes,

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Speaker 1: handsome yes, but a dark skin brother, you know, because

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Speaker 1: there's racism and then there's colorism too in America that

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Speaker 1: you know, even within the spectrum the evil spectrum of racism,

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Speaker 1: that if you were light you were treated better than

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Speaker 1: if you were dark. You know, that's that's sort of

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Speaker 1: built into the horror show of our history. And for

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Speaker 1: Nat to find his cool, to find his his footing

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Speaker 1: and his confidence in the midst of all that, you

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Speaker 1: know that that's radical. He was a unicorn, and he was,

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Speaker 1: in his own way an iconoclassed, you know, an activist

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Speaker 1: just by existing, you know, you let us know what

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Speaker 1: was what was possible if you dared to be excellent anyway.

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Speaker 1: So but for me, I live in a different time,

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Speaker 1: a different country, has formed me, the same thing does

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Speaker 1: not apply. I had a really astute coach tell me

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Speaker 1: once about sort of my this cool affect that I

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Speaker 1: was putting on at one point, because we try to

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Speaker 1: later our heroes, you know, I was so I was

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Speaker 1: trying to early on in my career, trying to be

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Speaker 1: some version of Sammy Davis Junior Slash and at King

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Speaker 1: Cole Slash, you know, these guys. And he said, it's

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Speaker 1: not gonna work on you. He said, because it is

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Speaker 1: very clear to me, it's very apparent to me that

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Speaker 1: you've been loved your whole life, Your parents loved you,

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Speaker 1: didn't they I said, yes they did. He said, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it shows you got you gotta work harder, you have

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Speaker 1: to pull from a different place. He said, what those

401
00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:35,760
Speaker 1: guys were up against for them to find their cool

402
00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:40,600
Speaker 1: was the tension. That was the tension you stepping on

403
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Speaker 1: stage and showing me how easy it is for you.

404
00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:48,560
Speaker 1: I'm bored, find something else, dig deeper, and it really

405
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Speaker 1: it changed things for me. You know. Ron Coleman was

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Speaker 1: his name, brilliant cat. How old were you when he

407
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Speaker 1: gave you that speech? I was not. I want that young.

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Speaker 1: I was in my mid twenties, you know, twenty five,

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Speaker 1: twenty six. He was like, you know, cut the cool

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Speaker 1: shit out, like it's not enough. How did you feel after?

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Speaker 1: He I mean, in retrospective, of course it's brilliant, but

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Speaker 1: at the time that had to be a little tough

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Speaker 1: to hear. Oh, I've always loved that man. A great coach.

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Speaker 1: Olympic athletes have coaches, the NBA All Stars have coaches.

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Speaker 1: The best of us. You need somebody on the outside

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Speaker 1: telling you what it looks like, telling you what they see,

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Speaker 1: and telling you how to get better. If you have

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Speaker 1: a desire to get better. I've always loved that tell

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Speaker 1: me the truth. And here's the thing. A friend of

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Speaker 1: mine says, her name is Lacy, Lacy C. Clark. The

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Speaker 1: best thing she's ever told me, dear friends, she said,

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Speaker 1: the truth without love is brutality. So there was so

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Speaker 1: much love. And what he was telling me, he really

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Speaker 1: cared about me when he was he was telling me

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Speaker 1: the baseline truth. You know, he really wanted me to

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Speaker 1: understand something. But there was so much love in it.

427
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:05,000
Speaker 1: He was not trying to to destroy me. He was

428
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:06,600
Speaker 1: not trying to kill me. He was trying to help me.

429
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:08,800
Speaker 1: And I could feel it, and it made me better.

430
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,480
Speaker 1: Effort effort he was. You know, you're you're living in

431
00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:15,320
Speaker 1: a different time. You come from a different experience. Do

432
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:19,679
Speaker 1: not repeat those same moves. You can glean something from

433
00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:22,840
Speaker 1: their lives, You can take something from what they built.

434
00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:25,159
Speaker 1: You know, you are you can be a link in

435
00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:28,960
Speaker 1: the chain, you know, but you must understand what you're

436
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:31,520
Speaker 1: here to say and how to say it for a

437
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,280
Speaker 1: new generation. Okay, I want to talk a little bit

438
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:37,879
Speaker 1: about your background, because you're talking a lot about coaching

439
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 1: and experiences you had. You grew up in Philly, you

440
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:46,199
Speaker 1: were born in New York. Your parents sounded strict but loving. Yeah, strict,

441
00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:49,760
Speaker 1: strict but but indulgent. Yes, what was the music in

442
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:53,199
Speaker 1: your house growing up? My dad was a music is

443
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:57,520
Speaker 1: a music lover he had and he had an extensive

444
00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:00,480
Speaker 1: record collection. You know. One of the things he on

445
00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:03,720
Speaker 1: the low never forgave his mom for was he went

446
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:06,480
Speaker 1: away to college and she threw away his record collection.

447
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:08,280
Speaker 1: She just got rid of it. She was tired of

448
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:10,840
Speaker 1: like tripping over it in the house, and she threw

449
00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:13,479
Speaker 1: away his record collection. So he never forgave her, but

450
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:16,200
Speaker 1: he did his best to like to get his records back,

451
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:20,520
Speaker 1: and they were probably ten literal crates, you know, just

452
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:24,920
Speaker 1: like plastic crates, some records in our basement. My dad

453
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:27,199
Speaker 1: had me very young, twenty three when he had me, so,

454
00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:30,000
Speaker 1: you know, no judgment on the guy. But like weekends

455
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:32,800
Speaker 1: was when my dad would, you know, he'd get a

456
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:34,560
Speaker 1: little lite, you know what I mean, he'd have some

457
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:37,240
Speaker 1: beers and he put his records on, you know, and

458
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:39,399
Speaker 1: he'd be dancing with my mom and singing at the

459
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,520
Speaker 1: top of his lungs badly. What was the music he

460
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:46,240
Speaker 1: was listening to? It was soul. It was mostly soul

461
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:50,040
Speaker 1: and R and B music. It was like Marvin Gay,

462
00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:54,159
Speaker 1: the Ohio Players, the tempt James Brown is my dad's

463
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:58,800
Speaker 1: all time favorite artists. Some Motown in there too, but yeah,

464
00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:01,160
Speaker 1: it was the music of his He came of age

465
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:03,600
Speaker 1: in the in the seventies, so it was luck. Yeah,

466
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:06,679
Speaker 1: I was hearing lots of sixties and seventies and then eighties.

467
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:09,720
Speaker 1: They loved the modern stuff of the time too, which

468
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:13,160
Speaker 1: was what like Lionel Richie, Michael Jackson. Of course MJ

469
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:17,159
Speaker 1: was huge. Was there a song or an album or

470
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:21,159
Speaker 1: a moment where you thought, well, maybe I can do

471
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:24,320
Speaker 1: music too, Like I like this, I want this for myself.

472
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:27,960
Speaker 1: It was late when I when I'm talking the kids,

473
00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:31,080
Speaker 1: I really try to keep it simple for them because

474
00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 1: it was simple for me. There was no grand ambition involved. Bruce,

475
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:37,719
Speaker 1: I have to be you know. I was not thinking

476
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 1: that I was gonna be some you know, recording artists.

477
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:45,760
Speaker 1: I was just following my curiosity. I was doing what

478
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:48,280
Speaker 1: was fun. I was doing what I loved to do.

479
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 1: So when I'm talking to them, I'm saying, love something,

480
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 1: love it with your whole heart. I bet I want

481
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:56,920
Speaker 1: to know. You tell me too, if this is true,

482
00:26:57,040 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 1: You tell me if it's good advice, because what I

483
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:04,320
Speaker 1: say is love is a verb. If there's something that

484
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,679
Speaker 1: you're interested in, read about it, talk about it, find

485
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 1: other people that love it too, dream about it, write

486
00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:15,199
Speaker 1: about it, and eventually you will find your way to

487
00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 1: the world that you love and it will love you back,

488
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:19,879
Speaker 1: not always in the way that you expect it to,

489
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:23,400
Speaker 1: but in the way that you need. Yeah. Absolutely. Now,

490
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:25,919
Speaker 1: you did see Rent when you were thirteen, and that

491
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:29,440
Speaker 1: left a big impression. It did. Rent brought a generation

492
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:33,560
Speaker 1: of people to the theater. Lyn Manuel included. Really, you know,

493
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 1: Rent was like it was like the bat signal. It

494
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:40,240
Speaker 1: let us all know there's a place for you. It's

495
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:44,520
Speaker 1: sort of controversial for me to say, but Michael Jackson

496
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 1: was big. It's complicated with these people as we learn

497
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:51,680
Speaker 1: more about them over time, and we have to sort

498
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:56,879
Speaker 1: of reckon with the art and the human you know,

499
00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 1: we have to reckon with the totality of who they were,

500
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 1: and then we you know, we hold the art up

501
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:04,000
Speaker 1: and am I still allowed to love this? You know?

502
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:06,679
Speaker 1: But Michael had a big effect on me, and Michael

503
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:11,480
Speaker 1: Michael made worlds. You know, there was no art that

504
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 1: had a bigger effect on me as a as a

505
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,280
Speaker 1: young person than Thriller. It was really it was that

506
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:19,520
Speaker 1: that movie, the John Landis short film that he made,

507
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 1: and then the making of Thriller. That's short about the

508
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 1: making of Thriller where where they let us in on process,

509
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:29,879
Speaker 1: where they let us in on the making of it.

510
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 1: And I was like, and what a what a generous thing,

511
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 1: what a fascinating thing to see them in rehearsal, to

512
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:40,360
Speaker 1: see Michael Peters teaching the dancers, and they're in there,

513
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 1: you know, perfect their eighties get up, you know what

514
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:46,440
Speaker 1: I mean, the crop tops and the headbands and the

515
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:50,480
Speaker 1: you know, and and they're laughing, and Michael and Ola

516
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:53,800
Speaker 1: Ray are finding their chemistry, you know, before they're in costume.

517
00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:56,480
Speaker 1: You're just watching them sort of dance around each other

518
00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:58,760
Speaker 1: and get to know each other. I mean, my god,

519
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 1: I was more interest sit in that than I was

520
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 1: in the Monster movie that they made, which I loved

521
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 1: a lot. But the thing that I wanted to watch

522
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:08,720
Speaker 1: again and again was I wanted to watch Michael put

523
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 1: the plaster on his face and then and put the

524
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 1: teeth in and all that stuff. So when I got

525
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:18,000
Speaker 1: to Broadway, when Rent sort of was that bat signal

526
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 1: that I talked about I was like, oh, man, they

527
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,880
Speaker 1: make worlds here. They build worlds here. When I got

528
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 1: to the Nederlander Theater, I was seventeen years old when

529
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 1: I went into rent On Broadway and I got there

530
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 1: and they had the metal scaffolding and the and the

531
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:34,840
Speaker 1: fog machine was going before the audience walked in, and

532
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:37,840
Speaker 1: there's a there's just that that kind that certain perfect

533
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:40,680
Speaker 1: chill in the air in a New York Broadway the

534
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:45,840
Speaker 1: house that you feel it felt like as close to

535
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:47,960
Speaker 1: you know, I was going to be a part of

536
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:52,320
Speaker 1: thrillers as I could get before you made it to Broadway.

537
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:56,640
Speaker 1: You studied at Freedom Theater in Philadelphia, and also you

538
00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 1: studied dance in Philadelphia. Yeah. Um, they were both at

539
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 1: black institutions. That's right. And I just think it's an

540
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:08,960
Speaker 1: interesting moment because particularly with Kamala Harris who went to

541
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:14,440
Speaker 1: Howard Tonahasi Coates, whom I know a little and admire

542
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 1: a lot, went to Howard and really encourages a lot

543
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 1: of people to go to historically black universities. Yeah, because

544
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:22,000
Speaker 1: he thinks it's you need a kind of safe place

545
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:25,120
Speaker 1: to find yourself. What was it like for you or

546
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 1: what did I what do you think that brought you

547
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:31,320
Speaker 1: going to black institutions to study at that point rather

548
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:36,240
Speaker 1: than integrated institutions. Probably the same thing that you know,

549
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:39,200
Speaker 1: I have dear sweet friends out here in la that

550
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:42,360
Speaker 1: send their their children to Jewish day school, you know,

551
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:44,920
Speaker 1: or or the people that send their kids to to

552
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:49,440
Speaker 1: Christian academies and Christian schools. It's just like really making

553
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 1: friends with your with your identity and with your you know,

554
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 1: your your history, making friends with that and so so

555
00:30:57,560 --> 00:30:59,080
Speaker 1: that no one so that no one can take that

556
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:01,160
Speaker 1: away from you or ever make you ashamed of it,

557
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 1: or probably a little bit of that. And then I

558
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 1: think cities have a character. I've learned now as I've

559
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 1: traveled around post Hamilton with all these concerts and speaking

560
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 1: engagements and stuff, the touring that I've that I've been

561
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 1: able to do since leaving the show, you really get

562
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:24,440
Speaker 1: a sense of it's a it's a strange thing, or

563
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 1: maybe maybe not so strange at all, but you know,

564
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:32,200
Speaker 1: you get to Boston and you're like, oh, oh, yeah,

565
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:33,920
Speaker 1: these are the people that would take that tea and

566
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 1: dump it into the harbor. The Boston's the place that

567
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 1: would do that, you know what I mean. It's it's

568
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 1: unlike any other places they've got They've got a character.

569
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 1: There's a character to the people of that city and Philadelphia.

570
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 1: It does not surprise me one bit that this election,

571
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:57,920
Speaker 1: you know that that Philadelphia has has, you know, played

572
00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:02,480
Speaker 1: its role in earning this thing around for America. Whatever

573
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 1: you believe, whatever side you were on, Philadelphia mattered, and Philadelphia,

574
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,480
Speaker 1: you know, there's a character to to my town. There

575
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:17,000
Speaker 1: was a wonderful thing training at that that those formative

576
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 1: years of my life, I took it for granted. Every

577
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:26,200
Speaker 1: single one of my friends was young, gifted, and black,

578
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:29,400
Speaker 1: like I was not. I was not special. I was

579
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 1: not the most talented person in any of those classes.

580
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:37,080
Speaker 1: I was far. I was not you know when I

581
00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:38,680
Speaker 1: was in when I was in my dance classes, I

582
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 1: was not the best student or the best speaker or

583
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 1: any of that stuff. All of my friends were brilliant

584
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:48,040
Speaker 1: and we and that was like, that was the that

585
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:51,880
Speaker 1: was the minimum, like, you know, to hang in this set,

586
00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 1: you were supposed to be, you know, all of these things.

587
00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:59,440
Speaker 1: And that's I think that that is what you hear

588
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:01,640
Speaker 1: Ton of high See talking about Howard, and you hear

589
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,600
Speaker 1: Kamala talking about her experience at Howard on our elementary

590
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:08,240
Speaker 1: school level. That's what I was experiencing, I think at

591
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 1: Freedom Theater, at Philadenko and so Yes, I took. I

592
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 1: carried that with me wherever I went, you know, in

593
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:21,560
Speaker 1: the rooms that followed. If you know, if you didn't

594
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:24,160
Speaker 1: think I was good enough, if you didn't think that

595
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:27,280
Speaker 1: I was worthy of the air in my lungs or

596
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:30,080
Speaker 1: the space that I was taking up, something was wrong

597
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:33,960
Speaker 1: with you. I never ever thought that it was something

598
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:37,080
Speaker 1: that I should fix about myself, you know, beyond beyond

599
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 1: character flaw. You know, there's, of course that I've worked

600
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 1: on myself as a human being. But you know what

601
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:42,840
Speaker 1: I'm saying, like that there was that there was anything

602
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:48,080
Speaker 1: intrinsically wrong with me because of the color of my skin.

603
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:53,760
Speaker 1: I mean not in Philadelphia. No, you then went to

604
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 1: Carnegie Mellon after you were in rent and Broadway, and

605
00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 1: then became a working actor in Los Angeles. But you

606
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 1: gave up singing for a while. Yeah, had you not

607
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 1: been encouraged as a singer before that, I just didn't know.

608
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:09,719
Speaker 1: I didn't know it was possible, And there were a

609
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:13,400
Speaker 1: lot of It's hard enough. It's like pick one, you know,

610
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:16,800
Speaker 1: it's hard enough trying to make it as one thing.

611
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:19,680
Speaker 1: You know, I just decided to focus on being an actor,

612
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 1: and that that just took up all my energy, took

613
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 1: up all my time. I was auditioning for shows and

614
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 1: getting them sometimes, but I didn't know that, you know,

615
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:32,280
Speaker 1: that making records and stuff like that was possible. I met,

616
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 1: you know, I met Joseph, this guy that I've take

617
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 1: talked about several times. I didn't meet Joseph until you know,

618
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:41,399
Speaker 1: Leap of Faith on Broadway, and Joseph is the guy

619
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:43,560
Speaker 1: that turned it all around. Joseph was the guy that

620
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:46,439
Speaker 1: said I want to make records with you, and people

621
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:48,600
Speaker 1: had said that to me over the years, but nobody

622
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 1: followed through. You know. Yeah, I don't understand how you

623
00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:56,160
Speaker 1: needed to raise money for a record after you and Rent.

624
00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:59,160
Speaker 1: I just assumed, like when you left the stage during Rent,

625
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 1: somebody just just jumped a big bucket of money on

626
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:05,799
Speaker 1: your head and just sing into the mic and we'll

627
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:11,240
Speaker 1: make it a record. Where Wow about the music business,

628
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:16,359
Speaker 1: you know, greater identifying talent. You wrote a terrific book, which,

629
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:18,879
Speaker 1: by the way, I've got little little kids, but both

630
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 1: of them are going to read this book. They're all

631
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:23,680
Speaker 1: enough too. It's called Failing Up, and it is it's

632
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 1: a short book, but it's just about your experiences and

633
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:31,279
Speaker 1: it's fantastic and it's full of great thoughts, but it's

634
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:36,880
Speaker 1: a very painful passage in which you are in a show,

635
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:42,400
Speaker 1: a TV show, and Vulture, which was from New York magazine,

636
00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 1: was doing recaps of the show and they referred to

637
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 1: you only as token. Yeah, you talk about it in

638
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:49,440
Speaker 1: the book because he could you tell me about how

639
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:58,480
Speaker 1: that felt? It was not unlike Ron Coleman's advice to me.

640
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 1: You know, it was sobering and you know, yeah, a little,

641
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:05,880
Speaker 1: a little hurtful or a little you know, a little

642
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:10,320
Speaker 1: not hurtful. What happens? What is the thing that happens

643
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:13,080
Speaker 1: when you hear a truth that you that that is

644
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:15,400
Speaker 1: hard to hear? And did you think there was truth?

645
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:18,120
Speaker 1: And absolutely there was truth in it because they were

646
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:21,239
Speaker 1: responding to how the show was treating me, and that

647
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 1: show marginalized me at every turn. That's just the truth.

648
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:28,480
Speaker 1: I felt it when I was in it. That was

649
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:30,920
Speaker 1: one of the reasons that made that show so challenging

650
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:33,680
Speaker 1: to beyond one of the reasons. But yeah, I was

651
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:37,359
Speaker 1: I was I was a token and I knew it,

652
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:43,920
Speaker 1: and that that is reductive and painful, you know, to

653
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:50,080
Speaker 1: live through. And Vulture exposed it and exposed them and me.

654
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:54,319
Speaker 1: And the part that I guess, I guess the most

655
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:57,640
Speaker 1: hurtful part I've never really thought about this is like

656
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:01,960
Speaker 1: when Vulture put sit in the in a weekly column,

657
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:03,520
Speaker 1: I have to ask myself, well, what are you going

658
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:06,879
Speaker 1: to do about it? Now it's been called out, It's

659
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:09,399
Speaker 1: not it's not being hidden. You are a token. You're

660
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:11,759
Speaker 1: being treated like a token. You're allowing yourself to be

661
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:13,840
Speaker 1: treated like a token. What are you going to do

662
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:15,800
Speaker 1: about it? And I, yeah, I had to make somebody

663
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:18,480
Speaker 1: to make some changes turning that around. You then went

664
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:20,840
Speaker 1: to Broadway and you know, it was one of the

665
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:24,799
Speaker 1: great It was what felt so revolutionary about Hamilton was

666
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:30,960
Speaker 1: that these historical white characters were being played by African Americans,

667
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:34,359
Speaker 1: people of different races. What was that like. You'd had

668
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:37,279
Speaker 1: the security of going to sort of you know, you

669
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:39,520
Speaker 1: studied in an all black theater. You then did a

670
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:41,120
Speaker 1: lot of different work. What was it like to get

671
00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:43,759
Speaker 1: up on stage and say, I'm a black guy, I'm

672
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 1: playing a famous white guy, also a bad guy. But

673
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:51,600
Speaker 1: what was that like, Well, I think I actually, you know,

674
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 1: I know, my degree says I got what I think?

675
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:58,000
Speaker 1: I get a Bachelor of Fine Arts at Carnegie Million University.

676
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:01,279
Speaker 1: You know, majored in drama. But I actually think, you know,

677
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:06,520
Speaker 1: you could also to synonym for empathy. I'm majored in empathy.

678
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 1: And this was the greatest empathetic challenge that I've ever

679
00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:14,800
Speaker 1: been given. I've been taught a lot about the Founding Fathers,

680
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:19,319
Speaker 1: we all have, but no one's ever ever before lin

681
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:23,560
Speaker 1: Manuel tried to get me to empathize with the Founding Fathers.

682
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:27,959
Speaker 1: And there's a curious thing that happens as a young

683
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:30,799
Speaker 1: thirty something year old black man when you try to

684
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:38,239
Speaker 1: empathize with you know, these men, these complicated these complicated men.

685
00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 1: There's there's parts of them that you understand, parts of

686
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:48,200
Speaker 1: them that you'll never understand, and that tension, that dissonance

687
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:52,560
Speaker 1: that it's actually the spaces in which it doesn't quite

688
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:56,560
Speaker 1: fit that is really interesting for an audience to watch.

689
00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:00,080
Speaker 1: It's the places that it is incongruous, the places that

690
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:04,239
Speaker 1: it doesn't make sense, that make us keep watching. When

691
00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:06,479
Speaker 1: you watch Davi Digs at the top of Act two,

692
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 1: step out on that stage as Thomas Jefferson. It is

693
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:15,080
Speaker 1: the weirdest and he's talking to his slaves, and it

694
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:18,640
Speaker 1: doesn't there's something, especially in a country with a history

695
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:21,480
Speaker 1: of black face in vaudeville. You know that is a

696
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:24,080
Speaker 1: part of us two that you know that as a

697
00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:26,319
Speaker 1: part of our DNA too. And we've and you and

698
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:28,279
Speaker 1: I both we've we've both grown up. It was in

699
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:31,400
Speaker 1: our cartoons it was you know that that also is

700
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:39,920
Speaker 1: not and the hateful, mean, reductive caricature that is drawn

701
00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:43,080
Speaker 1: from black face. We feel that too. We feel that

702
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:47,440
Speaker 1: an aunt Jemima and uncle Ben, we felt that you

703
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 1: and I we grew up in this country. You know,

704
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:52,440
Speaker 1: they've changed these images slightly, of course to try to

705
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:55,960
Speaker 1: be more politically correct. But we know what they were

706
00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 1: when we were children, and my and my parents know

707
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:01,279
Speaker 1: what they or when they were children. So that's a

708
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:04,080
Speaker 1: part of us too. And so now to have men

709
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:07,240
Speaker 1: and women, so now it's going the other way right

710
00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:10,960
Speaker 1: on some level, this is the this is the same thing,

711
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:14,080
Speaker 1: but we're not being It is with a with an

712
00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:18,359
Speaker 1: entirely different spirit. It is with an entirely different spirit,

713
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:23,800
Speaker 1: an entirely different intention. There's reverence, there is judgment, there

714
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:26,560
Speaker 1: is a point of view. So anyway, it was just

715
00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:32,000
Speaker 1: a powerful exercise, a powerful experience that made good on

716
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:35,160
Speaker 1: my training. You know, I went and got all these

717
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:38,120
Speaker 1: great tools at Carnegie Mellon University, and I come out

718
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:40,440
Speaker 1: of school and for the most part, I'm a part

719
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:43,319
Speaker 1: of shows that want me to be, you know, the

720
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:45,359
Speaker 1: best friend of the best friend of the best friend

721
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:49,640
Speaker 1: of the white lead. You know, and and continuously tell

722
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:52,359
Speaker 1: me and affirm for me. You're welcome here. But as

723
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:54,719
Speaker 1: long as you stay on the outskirts, as long as

724
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:57,360
Speaker 1: you stay on the margins, you are not the center.

725
00:40:57,560 --> 00:40:59,960
Speaker 1: You're not You're not interesting enough, You're not worthy enough

726
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:02,759
Speaker 1: to be the center of a narrative. Your story isn't

727
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:06,400
Speaker 1: quite doesn't just doesn't quite matter as much. It's waited

728
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:09,040
Speaker 1: differently as this other story. You know. It was just

729
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:10,880
Speaker 1: a message that I was being told again and again,

730
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:16,280
Speaker 1: and Lynn decided to do something different, to do something radical,

731
00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:20,920
Speaker 1: and I'm so glad that he did. You know, it

732
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:24,360
Speaker 1: makes me think for the first time that had you

733
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:27,479
Speaker 1: been the only black member of the cast and you'd

734
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 1: been Aaron Byrd, the villain, how differently, Oh yeah, it

735
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:33,400
Speaker 1: would feel. That's what I was disarming, was was the

736
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:36,200
Speaker 1: whole cast. It makes me think of the old you know.

737
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:39,680
Speaker 1: They made a movie of Jesus Christ Superstars, right, and

738
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:45,720
Speaker 1: the only black performer played Judas, and that always upset me. Yeah,

739
00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:48,319
Speaker 1: you bring you bring him up. Carl Anderson is his name,

740
00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:52,520
Speaker 1: and he is top five most influential performers for me.

741
00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:55,640
Speaker 1: Top five Carl Anderson. Really, Oh are you kidding me?

742
00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:57,719
Speaker 1: It's you know, it's a strange thing that happens. I

743
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:00,720
Speaker 1: was listening to a podcast and it was even about

744
00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:05,480
Speaker 1: Muslim Americans and how there are children that grew up,

745
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:11,040
Speaker 1: you know, identifying with and sort of sometimes rooting for

746
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:15,280
Speaker 1: the bad guy in the way stories were told because

747
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:18,960
Speaker 1: that was their only representation. It was the only time

748
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:21,600
Speaker 1: they were seeing themselves and so not that they're rooting for.

749
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:24,080
Speaker 1: But you know what I'm saying, like, oh my god,

750
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:26,799
Speaker 1: there I am, you know, And so later on you

751
00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:29,360
Speaker 1: unpack that and you go, God, why did I only

752
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:33,319
Speaker 1: ever see myself as the represented as the bad guy,

753
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:36,160
Speaker 1: as the villain, So Carl, at the time that I

754
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:38,840
Speaker 1: was seeing Jesus Christ Superstar, all I saw was just this,

755
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:43,600
Speaker 1: Oh man, just if somebody put my Aaron Burr in

756
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:47,960
Speaker 1: the same cannons as Carl Anderson. Man, I'd be done.

757
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 1: I just thought he the work is so nuanced and

758
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:56,640
Speaker 1: beautiful and human and gorgeous. My god, he's so good

759
00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:59,080
Speaker 1: in that part. Yeah, I want to talk a little

760
00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:04,160
Speaker 1: bit about you're singing, but I'm interested in because you're

761
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:07,319
Speaker 1: a jazz singer, or you're described as a jazz singer,

762
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:10,799
Speaker 1: you've done jazz albums, But I don't. It's a little

763
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:13,120
Speaker 1: hard for me to understand what the state of jazz

764
00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:15,759
Speaker 1: singing is because I think it's something most people still

765
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:20,520
Speaker 1: associate with, you know, a previous you know, a previous

766
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:22,800
Speaker 1: generation at least you know they think of like the

767
00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:27,839
Speaker 1: Yellow Fitzgerald songbooks. She also did a fabulous Christmas album

768
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:30,719
Speaker 1: by the way. Yeah, Or you know Peggy Lee, maybe

769
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:33,520
Speaker 1: Diane Reeves, you know the Seravan who's a big favorite

770
00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:35,799
Speaker 1: of mine. You know, I could tell you what sort

771
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:38,200
Speaker 1: of modern jazz is for a saxophone player, for a

772
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:40,920
Speaker 1: piano player, what is it for a singer where How

773
00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:42,919
Speaker 1: do you feel you fit in too? Sort of what

774
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:46,520
Speaker 1: jazz is today? Oh, I feel like I've fit in again.

775
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:50,160
Speaker 1: It is not unlike those rooms that I was training

776
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:54,680
Speaker 1: in Philadelphia. I am far from the best in any

777
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:58,680
Speaker 1: room of jazz singers that you'll meet. Yeah, jazz ain't

778
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:02,160
Speaker 1: going anywhere, you know, They jazz survives, and so I

779
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:04,640
Speaker 1: just I just think it. It looks a little different,

780
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 1: but it's still out here. I'm in, I hope in

781
00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:14,920
Speaker 1: the tradition of a Frank of a Gnat, of a

782
00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:19,440
Speaker 1: Billy x Stein, even Chet, you know, once Chet started singing.

783
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:23,760
Speaker 1: You know, I'm a certain kind of of jazz singer.

784
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:29,000
Speaker 1: But you know, when you really talk about the exceptional improvisers,

785
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:33,280
Speaker 1: and you know, the people that are out there pushing

786
00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:38,160
Speaker 1: the form, synthesizing all that was and all that is

787
00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:40,680
Speaker 1: and making a making a stab at what it's going

788
00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:42,719
Speaker 1: to be in the future, those people are out there.

789
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:45,080
Speaker 1: Even you look at you listen to you listen to

790
00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:50,520
Speaker 1: um Kendrick, Kendrick Lamars, Kendrick Lamars to Pimp a Butterfly

791
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:55,840
Speaker 1: or you know, Kendrick is is making jazz. Maybe not

792
00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:59,719
Speaker 1: jazz albums, but they are. There is heavy jazz in

793
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:03,799
Speaker 1: fluences on these Kedrick Lamar records, Commons another one always

794
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:06,960
Speaker 1: jazz on a common record. So yeah, I just think

795
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:11,360
Speaker 1: it's you know, for its survival. It is finding pockets

796
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:16,319
Speaker 1: in the popular culture to exist and feed itself. But

797
00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:19,480
Speaker 1: you seem to be in a different category. So for example,

798
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:22,400
Speaker 1: when you do you do a great version of you

799
00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:27,120
Speaker 1: mentioned it favorite Things, Yeah on your previous album. Anybody

800
00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:30,440
Speaker 1: who grew up in the twentieth century thinks of Julie Andrews.

801
00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:34,520
Speaker 1: But you can't listen to years without thinking of like Coltrane. Hey,

802
00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:38,000
Speaker 1: it's there, isn't it. Yeah? God, I hope so the

803
00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:41,719
Speaker 1: or the inspiration anyway, Yeah, I hope. I'm in a

804
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:44,319
Speaker 1: laying on That's That's what you're trying to do, which

805
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:46,400
Speaker 1: is what any artist is trying to do. And it

806
00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:48,480
Speaker 1: takes a while. Some people get it, get to it

807
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:51,600
Speaker 1: quicker than others. Look at Little Billie Eilish and you

808
00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:54,560
Speaker 1: know Amy what Amy Winehouse was able to give us

809
00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:58,320
Speaker 1: before she left us far too soon. Some some artists

810
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:00,359
Speaker 1: are able to get to it sooner. I can get

811
00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:02,120
Speaker 1: to it. Until I got to you know, I was

812
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:04,680
Speaker 1: in my early thirties when I really started to come

813
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:08,200
Speaker 1: into my own thanks to Ron Coleman, thanks to Lynn

814
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:11,680
Speaker 1: Manuel and some other people who really helped me figure

815
00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:14,440
Speaker 1: out what it is that I could offer that no

816
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:16,640
Speaker 1: one else was offering, because that's what you gotta do.

817
00:46:16,719 --> 00:46:19,279
Speaker 1: You gotta figure out what are you gonna say that's

818
00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:22,719
Speaker 1: not already being said better by someone else? You know

819
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:25,080
Speaker 1: what ground are you gonna hope? There is something? There's

820
00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:29,759
Speaker 1: something you can offer, but it takes experimentation and a

821
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:32,480
Speaker 1: little bit of courage to find what that thing is.

822
00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:35,720
Speaker 1: What are the albums I'm gonna make that nobody's already making.

823
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:43,879
Speaker 1: We'll be right back with Leslie Odom Junior. We're back

824
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:47,120
Speaker 1: with the rest of Bruce Helem's conversation with Leslie Odom Junior.

825
00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:50,920
Speaker 1: When did you start recording the This Christmas Album? June?

826
00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:54,279
Speaker 1: So it was full pandemic when you were doing Yeah,

827
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:56,000
Speaker 1: we did it relatively quickly, it was, and it was

828
00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:58,799
Speaker 1: a part of the pivot. COVID caught us all in

829
00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:02,880
Speaker 1: the middle of something, right. Everybody ever, shit is never convenient.

830
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:05,239
Speaker 1: It's not like, oh, now is the perfect time for

831
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:07,960
Speaker 1: me to deal with a quarantine. Everybody was like, fuck man,

832
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:10,319
Speaker 1: I just got started on something. So two or three

833
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:13,360
Speaker 1: months into the pandemic, I think there was something about

834
00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:17,520
Speaker 1: I was reminded of the holidays, because as Americans, the

835
00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:21,240
Speaker 1: only time we really allow ourselves the time to push

836
00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:24,799
Speaker 1: the pause button. Are those three weeks between Christmas and

837
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:27,319
Speaker 1: New Year's right? Every everything about it we are about

838
00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:31,840
Speaker 1: the grind, the hustle, the like. We don't pause except

839
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:34,680
Speaker 1: for those And we were on pause. And so there

840
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:37,120
Speaker 1: was Almas like, this feels like I'm a weird it's

841
00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:39,279
Speaker 1: a weird Christmas, but this feels this is the only

842
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:43,319
Speaker 1: time we do. This is Christmas time. So we took

843
00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:45,879
Speaker 1: our COVID tests and you know, we got the band

844
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:48,239
Speaker 1: back together and tried to I tried to imagine what

845
00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:50,560
Speaker 1: people might be in need of at the end of

846
00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:55,080
Speaker 1: this really challenging year. You make some really interesting choices.

847
00:47:55,719 --> 00:47:58,080
Speaker 1: You're talking your book about making always trying to make

848
00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:02,439
Speaker 1: very informed, until actual choices. You know, in this case,

849
00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:05,120
Speaker 1: there's a there's a great version of Little Drummer Boy

850
00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:07,920
Speaker 1: with the South African choir. How did that come about?

851
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:11,400
Speaker 1: How Joseph did he came up with the arrangement idea?

852
00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:14,520
Speaker 1: He did He wanted it to the drums of Little

853
00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:18,279
Speaker 1: Drummer Boy to be set somewhere in Africa, you know,

854
00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:21,600
Speaker 1: he didn't Is it gonna be West Africa? Is it

855
00:48:21,719 --> 00:48:24,480
Speaker 1: gonna be South Africa. You know, we were gonna be

856
00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:28,879
Speaker 1: specific about it, not just you know, generic Africa. But

857
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:32,279
Speaker 1: he that was his inspiration, that was his little idea.

858
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:34,560
Speaker 1: And I said, yeah, man, you know, try it, let

859
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:36,239
Speaker 1: me let me hear it when it's done. And yeah,

860
00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:40,239
Speaker 1: he came up with the very the rudiments, you know,

861
00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:42,320
Speaker 1: and I got in there and I recorded a version

862
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:44,480
Speaker 1: of it, and this, you know, the process was not

863
00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:47,160
Speaker 1: unlike what I described to you. Kind of start just

864
00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:48,920
Speaker 1: at that basic what are the what are the words?

865
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:51,759
Speaker 1: You know, what is the melody? And then we sent

866
00:48:51,840 --> 00:48:55,640
Speaker 1: it to this this chorus, this youth chorus in South Africa,

867
00:48:55,880 --> 00:49:01,480
Speaker 1: and they sent us back something that was so far

868
00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:06,600
Speaker 1: beyond anything we antissipated. And so then we had to

869
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:11,000
Speaker 1: then make the arrangement match what they'd sent us back.

870
00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:14,640
Speaker 1: I had to re record the vocal and Farren Nephew Feamster,

871
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:18,160
Speaker 1: who's my other major collaborator on this record, he just

872
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:21,680
Speaker 1: made the arrangement as big and as bright and beautiful

873
00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:24,200
Speaker 1: as the vocals they sent us back. Was it tough

874
00:49:24,239 --> 00:49:28,000
Speaker 1: for you to come in with a vocal that worked

875
00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:30,640
Speaker 1: with what they were doing? No, they were so beautiful.

876
00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:33,359
Speaker 1: I mean they God, I'm so I could cry, I'm

877
00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:36,960
Speaker 1: so moved by people that you call them and you

878
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:39,960
Speaker 1: ask them if they want to collaborate, and you know,

879
00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:42,719
Speaker 1: people give you the best of them. Know, when we

880
00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:46,600
Speaker 1: sent them our version, they built their version around what

881
00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:50,359
Speaker 1: we sent them, So it was always taking me into consideration.

882
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:54,359
Speaker 1: You know, they they they were building their thing around

883
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:57,560
Speaker 1: the little humble thing we sent them. It sounds a

884
00:49:57,560 --> 00:50:00,960
Speaker 1: lot like Paul Simon's experience with grace Land, going and saying,

885
00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:03,920
Speaker 1: here's a little idea, and then you know, the guitar

886
00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:06,520
Speaker 1: player comes back with like a killer riff. And we

887
00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:09,399
Speaker 1: thought a lot about Graceland when they sent it back

888
00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:13,279
Speaker 1: to us. What was missing was what we realized is

889
00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:16,399
Speaker 1: that the way we could serve them actually was to

890
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:22,000
Speaker 1: bring more America, was to bring more pop. That was

891
00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:24,200
Speaker 1: what it was. Because we sent them, we sent them

892
00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:26,400
Speaker 1: something pretty rock and stick. I mean it was like

893
00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:30,600
Speaker 1: it was it was drum and bass maybe, you know,

894
00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:32,440
Speaker 1: and we we thought we were it was going to

895
00:50:32,520 --> 00:50:36,040
Speaker 1: be pretty acapella, like a pretty acapella arrangement. So so

896
00:50:36,080 --> 00:50:38,440
Speaker 1: then they send us back that you know, they just

897
00:50:38,520 --> 00:50:41,120
Speaker 1: they filled out the vocal spectrum and it was just

898
00:50:41,239 --> 00:50:44,680
Speaker 1: this choir coming back and it was like, we're failing them.

899
00:50:44,760 --> 00:50:47,560
Speaker 1: We have to match them, and what do we add

900
00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:52,080
Speaker 1: in there? We add the cultural exchange is the mix

901
00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:56,160
Speaker 1: of the two. So now let's what pop sounds. What

902
00:50:56,160 --> 00:50:59,319
Speaker 1: what can we add to the spectrum that is, you know,

903
00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:03,000
Speaker 1: the mel holding of our two cultures. You read it

904
00:51:03,239 --> 00:51:07,439
Speaker 1: Winter song, Yeah, with your co star from Harriet. Yes,

905
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:10,320
Speaker 1: tell me how that came about. Cynthia did a big

906
00:51:10,360 --> 00:51:13,600
Speaker 1: holiday concert at the Apollo a few years ago, her

907
00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:17,520
Speaker 1: and Shoshana Bean and we sang this lot the only

908
00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:20,200
Speaker 1: time we've ever sang it. We sang it live at

909
00:51:20,239 --> 00:51:23,160
Speaker 1: this concert and it felt good. Man. It was just

910
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:25,680
Speaker 1: you know, it was like, oh, yeah, why wasn't this

911
00:51:25,719 --> 00:51:28,759
Speaker 1: song a duet to begin with? Because yeah, that song

912
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:32,200
Speaker 1: started as a duets. It's an Ingrid Michaelson Sarah Barella's

913
00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:35,960
Speaker 1: song that I turned into a solo version. Cynthia and

914
00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:38,239
Speaker 1: I turned it back into a duet, and so I

915
00:51:38,320 --> 00:51:43,000
Speaker 1: just I couldn't miss the opportunity to get that on record,

916
00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:47,120
Speaker 1: and we should mention this is Cynthia a Rivo Arivo

917
00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:50,560
Speaker 1: Academy Award nominees the Arivo who I think and I

918
00:51:50,600 --> 00:51:53,640
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier the People's initial reaction to seeing you in Hamilton.

919
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:55,680
Speaker 1: I think she's another one of those people. If you

920
00:51:55,719 --> 00:51:57,560
Speaker 1: don't know her and you see her on TV or something,

921
00:51:57,560 --> 00:51:59,640
Speaker 1: she comes out and starts singing, You're just like what

922
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:06,120
Speaker 1: she queened the world? How come I've never heard this before?

923
00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:10,080
Speaker 1: This is so incredible. She's just that kind of talent. Yeah,

924
00:52:10,120 --> 00:52:11,920
Speaker 1: this this thing was our labor of love. At the

925
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:15,760
Speaker 1: end of the day, I hope we decorated the studio

926
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:19,040
Speaker 1: to feel like Christmas, you know, but there there's a

927
00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:23,480
Speaker 1: there's a reverence and a somber quality to my first

928
00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:26,600
Speaker 1: Christmas record that that just that's you know, that was

929
00:52:26,680 --> 00:52:29,319
Speaker 1: honestly where I was for whatever the reasons were at

930
00:52:29,360 --> 00:52:32,120
Speaker 1: that time, and I'm not in that same place even

931
00:52:32,160 --> 00:52:35,280
Speaker 1: in the middle of everything we're going through. I'm generally,

932
00:52:35,840 --> 00:52:38,920
Speaker 1: you know, I've gone on a search, a hunt for

933
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:41,320
Speaker 1: my joy the last couple of years, and I wanted

934
00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:44,799
Speaker 1: that present on this record. So I remember I was

935
00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:47,880
Speaker 1: jumping around the studio when Cynthia was in the booth

936
00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:51,480
Speaker 1: recording her vocals, just jumping for joy because she sounded

937
00:52:51,560 --> 00:52:53,400
Speaker 1: so good and it was happy. It was, you know,

938
00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:56,560
Speaker 1: coming to life. And she just said on the mic

939
00:52:56,640 --> 00:52:59,400
Speaker 1: She was like, you're really happy, aren't you, And I

940
00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:03,799
Speaker 1: said I, but I loved that my friend could see it.

941
00:53:04,320 --> 00:53:07,760
Speaker 1: Another song, I wanted to mention a duet with your wife.

942
00:53:08,160 --> 00:53:10,359
Speaker 1: You do it in Hebrew. Yes, we had a We

943
00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:14,160
Speaker 1: had a brilliant rabbi as our coach on that day

944
00:53:14,200 --> 00:53:17,480
Speaker 1: because we wanted to. We wanted to our pronunciation to

945
00:53:17,560 --> 00:53:23,120
Speaker 1: be accurate and respectful. Um so I'm gonna barely attempt

946
00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:25,759
Speaker 1: to say it now, but it's my old seward. I

947
00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:27,200
Speaker 1: think it's how you say it, but I need the

948
00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:30,120
Speaker 1: rabbi here to coach me again. I was very keen

949
00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:35,040
Speaker 1: on expanding that table, you know, expanding that the really

950
00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:38,240
Speaker 1: I think of the holiday time, I said that that

951
00:53:38,239 --> 00:53:42,200
Speaker 1: that three weeks between Christmas and New Year's that is

952
00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:45,759
Speaker 1: that is America's high holy time. And some people are

953
00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:48,719
Speaker 1: celebrating Hanaka, some people are celebrating Quanta, some people are

954
00:53:48,719 --> 00:53:52,200
Speaker 1: celebrating Christmas. Some people are just celebrating family, and they're

955
00:53:52,239 --> 00:53:56,160
Speaker 1: just celebrating rest. I want to celebrate it all, you know.

956
00:53:56,200 --> 00:53:58,440
Speaker 1: I want to. I want to. I want people to

957
00:53:58,600 --> 00:54:03,799
Speaker 1: feel seen, and let's make that holiday family portrait a

958
00:54:03,840 --> 00:54:06,279
Speaker 1: little bigger. You know what I mean? When you told

959
00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:10,520
Speaker 1: your wife you wanted to do a duet. Was she thinking,

960
00:54:10,719 --> 00:54:13,200
Speaker 1: you know, baby, it's cold outside or something? You said, well, no,

961
00:54:14,120 --> 00:54:17,919
Speaker 1: it's like that, except it's a thirteenth century Rabbinical song.

962
00:54:19,160 --> 00:54:20,520
Speaker 1: I don't know if you you, I don't know if

963
00:54:20,560 --> 00:54:22,960
Speaker 1: you does it. But my wife is half Jewish. I

964
00:54:22,960 --> 00:54:25,719
Speaker 1: mean I didn't know that. Now. Yeah, technically she would

965
00:54:25,760 --> 00:54:31,000
Speaker 1: be considered her mother is Jewish and her father's African American,

966
00:54:31,520 --> 00:54:36,839
Speaker 1: and so mixed race, mixed faith upbringing. And so I've

967
00:54:36,840 --> 00:54:39,000
Speaker 1: spent we've been together twelve years, and so I have

968
00:54:39,120 --> 00:54:44,080
Speaker 1: spent twelve years observing, in addition to all my High

969
00:54:44,120 --> 00:54:47,280
Speaker 1: Holy Days, observing the High Holy Days on the Jewish

970
00:54:47,320 --> 00:54:50,360
Speaker 1: calendar as well. And it has just God has gotten

971
00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:52,840
Speaker 1: larger for me. You know, I want to ask you

972
00:54:52,880 --> 00:54:57,759
Speaker 1: just about one more song, because it probably hit me

973
00:54:57,800 --> 00:55:01,479
Speaker 1: the hardest, maybe because it's the simplest. It's your version

974
00:55:01,520 --> 00:55:04,680
Speaker 1: of old Langsyne. How did that come about? It's just

975
00:55:04,760 --> 00:55:09,480
Speaker 1: you and a guitar. Yeah, it hits me too, that melody,

976
00:55:09,520 --> 00:55:13,040
Speaker 1: that sentiment before we go into a new year, let's

977
00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:22,239
Speaker 1: honor who isn't going with us? Should old acquaintance be forgot?

978
00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:33,880
Speaker 1: And brought to mind, should old acquaintance be forgot and

979
00:55:34,480 --> 00:55:41,160
Speaker 1: old landsign? It's just like I've been singing it for

980
00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:47,200
Speaker 1: years now in my concerts. It always works. It always

981
00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:49,680
Speaker 1: makes me feel something, And if it makes you feel something,

982
00:55:49,800 --> 00:55:52,120
Speaker 1: chances are it's going to make somebody else feel something too.

983
00:55:52,760 --> 00:55:56,120
Speaker 1: I think that's a perfect place to stop. But I

984
00:55:56,239 --> 00:55:58,640
Speaker 1: have one favor. Could you sing the next two lines?

985
00:56:00,800 --> 00:56:13,240
Speaker 1: Four Lansine, my dear for Lansine. We'll take a couple

986
00:56:13,320 --> 00:56:24,960
Speaker 1: of kindness yet for Lansine. Thank you so much for

987
00:56:25,080 --> 00:56:31,239
Speaker 1: doing this. Thank you, guys, appreciate you. Thanks to Leslie

988
00:56:31,239 --> 00:56:33,560
Speaker 1: Adam Junior for talking us through his beautiful new Christmas

989
00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:36,720
Speaker 1: album and for lifting our spirits. You can hear Leslie's

990
00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:39,360
Speaker 1: Christmas album, along with some of our other favorite Christmas

991
00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:42,759
Speaker 1: songs at a playlist at broken record podcast dot com.

992
00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:45,360
Speaker 1: Be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel at YouTube

993
00:56:45,360 --> 00:56:48,600
Speaker 1: dot com slash Broken record Podcast. There you can find

994
00:56:48,640 --> 00:56:52,320
Speaker 1: extended cuts of new and old episodes. Broken Record is

995
00:56:52,360 --> 00:56:56,040
Speaker 1: produced with help from Leah Rose, Jason Gambrell, Martin Gonzalez,

996
00:56:56,360 --> 00:57:00,800
Speaker 1: Eric Sandler, and his executive Produced by Miola Bell. Broken

997
00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:03,400
Speaker 1: Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. And if you

998
00:57:03,480 --> 00:57:06,240
Speaker 1: like Broken Record, please remember to share, rate, and review

999
00:57:06,320 --> 00:57:09,359
Speaker 1: our show on your podcast appen our theme musics by

1000
00:57:09,440 --> 00:57:11,800
Speaker 1: Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond bass