1 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:14,800 Speaker 1: At the end of the last episode, a source told 2 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:18,280 Speaker 1: us about a guy named Mike allegedly at a dance 3 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:22,240 Speaker 1: with Dana and a sinking feeling she had that Mike 4 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:27,040 Speaker 1: was going to do something very bad to Dana. And 5 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 1: while you can't spend much time in the world of 6 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: true crime without learning that you should definitely listen to 7 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:37,200 Speaker 1: your gut. A sinking feeling is not evidence of wrongdoing, 8 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 1: and it means nothing in the scope of Dana's murder investigation. 9 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 1: At best, it's hearsay. If my source would have stopped there, however, 10 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:51,040 Speaker 1: we could write off the information as coming from an 11 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 1: over excited teenager wanting to be caught up in the 12 00:00:54,600 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 1: drama of a local murder. But she didn't. Who told 13 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:05,960 Speaker 1: you his name was Mike. 14 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:09,039 Speaker 2: Just some other people that kind of knew her, that 15 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 2: were a little bit younger than me, that were more 16 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:14,160 Speaker 2: of her age. They told me because I had been 17 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:17,360 Speaker 2: telling him to watch out for this guy, that something's wrong. 18 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:19,759 Speaker 2: And then I think it was a guy that knew 19 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 2: and Mike he said that, uh yeah, he said, she 20 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 2: she is missing. You know, some guy named Mike was 21 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:29,960 Speaker 2: with her that night. And then I, you know, asked him, well, 22 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 2: what did he look like And then they told me 23 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 2: I said, yeah, that's the guy. I think he was 24 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:35,480 Speaker 2: going to kill her. And then next thing I know, 25 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 2: and I said, well, they found her. And they found 26 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:42,319 Speaker 2: her a few miles from that wonderland cave in Bella Vista. 27 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 1: My source wound up talking to a few other friends 28 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 1: from Bella Vista voicing her concerns about Dana and that 29 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 1: night she supposedly saw her. And I need to point 30 00:01:56,240 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 1: out there was more than one person of interest the 31 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:03,680 Speaker 1: bcs SO looked at named Mike, and Mike McMillan told 32 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 1: me I worked at the cave, but not until years 33 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 1: after Dana went missing, when I turned twenty one. No way, 34 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:12,239 Speaker 1: I was there that night. 35 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:18,840 Speaker 2: So they said, well, they hang out at the hill. 36 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:22,920 Speaker 2: What's that And they said it's up there at Bella Vista. 37 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 2: They said, you go up there and you go past 38 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:29,120 Speaker 2: that grocery store about two or three miles and then 39 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 2: there'll be a little dirt road off to the left 40 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 2: right before you go up a hill. So I drove 41 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 2: out there and I seen this little road. It's like 42 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:39,920 Speaker 2: a Friday or Saturday night because that's where they said 43 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 2: people her age and then kids from grabbing hung out. 44 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:46,079 Speaker 2: So I drove out there. I guess they partied out there. 45 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 2: It was like an open field and there were four 46 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 2: people out there. There was three guys and another girl. 47 00:02:57,120 --> 00:03:00,560 Speaker 2: And I get out of the car and it's that 48 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:05,240 Speaker 2: same guy Mike again, this other guy that I knew 49 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:08,640 Speaker 2: that was a little a little younger than me, Diana's ages, 50 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 2: and then this kind of longheaded blondish girl. And I said, oh, 51 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 2: I said, do y'all know Dana Stidham. Didn't she go 52 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 2: missing around here somewhere? Those guys didn't say that that 53 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 2: they were drinking beer, you know, out of cans. She says, yeah, 54 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:28,679 Speaker 2: I'll tell you what. You better leave here right now, 55 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 2: because if you don't, she says, the same thing's going 56 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:33,240 Speaker 2: to happen to you. 57 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 1: I asked my source the name of the girl on 58 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 1: the hill as we'll call her. As it turns out, 59 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 1: she's someone Dana knew very well and was seen by 60 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 1: several witnesses with Dana that night she disappeared. Unfortunately, I 61 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:57,920 Speaker 1: can't interview her. She died some time ago. After our conversation, 62 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 1: I spoke to a detective and related this information. The 63 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 1: detective knows this source how she can ramble, and how 64 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:08,480 Speaker 1: tempted I might be to write off what she says 65 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 1: as hyperbolic nonsense. But the detective stressed to me, quote, 66 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:20,160 Speaker 1: don't discount what she tells you. After that warning from 67 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:23,719 Speaker 1: the girl on the hill, my source became unsettled. 68 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 2: And I went and got in my car and left. 69 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:27,840 Speaker 2: I was like, I got to get out of here, 70 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:29,719 Speaker 2: because I don't know what they're going to do, you know. 71 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:32,720 Speaker 2: And I went and told a few more people about it, 72 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 2: and they just said, well, the guy that was with 73 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:40,039 Speaker 2: Dana that night, he's friends with some dirty cops, so 74 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 2: you don't want to get involved in it because they 75 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 2: might do something to you. So about fifteen years ago, 76 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:51,600 Speaker 2: I knew a die work the Shriff's office that I 77 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 2: talked to a little bit about it. 78 00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:58,039 Speaker 1: I verified that she had told others about this. What 79 00:04:58,200 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 1: she relayed to me next is the mo most disturbing 80 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 1: part of her account. And you'll hear a name bleeped up. 81 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 1: It's the name of a police officer. 82 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 2: What I understand is that Dana went out to man 83 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 2: cave in Bella Vista that night. The men decided they 84 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 2: were going to trade off girl friends, and they was 85 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 2: going to have a sex party, and that they got 86 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 2: ended up getting in a fight and a lover's quarrel 87 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 2: broke out, and that that Stidham girl got cut and 88 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:37,839 Speaker 2: that told him to put her in his car or 89 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 2: his truck, take her and bury her. 90 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:47,800 Speaker 1: Previously on Paper Ghosts, Yes. 91 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:50,280 Speaker 3: It was a young guy close to his age of 92 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 3: the policeman and he really felt like he may have 93 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 3: done it. 94 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 4: You don't have an intact body, but they found there 95 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 4: was a knit on the collarbone that they felt like 96 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:06,800 Speaker 4: was from a knife. Now, whether she was stabbed, you know, 97 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:07,360 Speaker 4: in the neck. 98 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 2: Something in my mind told me that this guy is 99 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:17,279 Speaker 2: fixing to kill this girl. Oh my god, this is 100 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:18,480 Speaker 2: some kind of a murder. 101 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 1: My name is em William Phelps. I'm an investigative journalist 102 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:26,000 Speaker 1: and author of more than forty true crime books. This 103 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:29,120 Speaker 1: is season four of Paper Ghosts. 104 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 5: The Ozarks. 105 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 1: Cold case work for me has always been about gathering 106 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 1: as much information as I can without judging it or 107 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:58,840 Speaker 1: allowing any bias to seep in. I collect the data, 108 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:03,279 Speaker 1: do some fact and see what shakes out. And before 109 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:06,159 Speaker 1: I decide on a line of inquiry, I like to 110 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 1: know as much about a case as possible. Far beyond 111 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 1: the public record, so I kept calling people and reviewing 112 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 1: all the documentation, which, let me tell you, amounts to 113 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 1: a mountain of police interviews, witness statements, official reports, and 114 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:28,960 Speaker 1: various other documents associated with the case, some thirty odd 115 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:34,239 Speaker 1: years old. All these sex party people, my source mentions 116 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 1: that crowd Dana hung around well for maybe obvious reasons, 117 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 1: none of them wanted to speak to me about what 118 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 1: they knew. Make of that what you will. I asked 119 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 1: Dana's mother, Georgia Stidham, about the now deceased girl on 120 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 1: the hill. I've bleeped out her name, but that's who 121 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 1: we're referring to in this exchange. And it's clear that 122 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 1: Georgia remembers her very well. 123 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 6: And did she ever mention or did you ever meet up? 124 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 7: Yes? 125 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 8: And you do not want me to tell you what 126 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 8: I think of Tell me I think the bitch had 127 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 8: a lot to do with it, and that a bitch 128 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 8: is exactly what she was. She came in and told 129 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 8: me that she was only nineteen and she was working 130 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 8: with Dana down there at the store, and now she 131 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:33,199 Speaker 8: was still in school and everything. But she had one 132 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 8: son that lived with her mom and dad. And she 133 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 8: was lying all the way through. She was married and 134 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 8: she had the one son. That was the only truth then. 135 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 6: It So what kind of person was she? Was she 136 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 6: a drug at it? 137 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 8: Was a bitch. 138 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:53,320 Speaker 6: I got that she was a bitch. 139 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 9: She was. 140 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 8: She was smart mouthed, and she wanted to be a 141 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:03,600 Speaker 8: big and doing things, I guess, and she couldn't quite 142 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:04,600 Speaker 8: carry it off. 143 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:08,320 Speaker 6: Was she into drugs? Dope that sort of thing? Yes, 144 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 6: what kind of drugs? 145 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:13,280 Speaker 8: All kinds from what I've understood. 146 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:15,720 Speaker 6: Do you think she was dealing drugs too? 147 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 3: Yes? 148 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:19,959 Speaker 8: I know she was dealing. Dana had told. 149 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 1: Me that the Girl on the Hill, along with two 150 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:26,960 Speaker 1: other girls Dana knew, were said to be muling drugs 151 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 1: from Texas into Arkansas, information I found in a police 152 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:36,719 Speaker 1: report and an interview with her. In my experience, at 153 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 1: this level of drug dealing, transporting quantities of dope over 154 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:45,720 Speaker 1: state lines a federal offense which can get you decades 155 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 1: in prison, the stakes become very high. Could Dana have 156 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:54,679 Speaker 1: seen something she wasn't supposed to and. 157 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:58,360 Speaker 8: She'd lie in line, lie just to get Diana out. 158 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 8: Diana was on her writer, her house. 159 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 6: And you're talking about when that night. 160 00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:12,199 Speaker 1: I ended up verifying this with three other sources. Next, 161 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:16,679 Speaker 1: I needed to understand what Georgia thought about Mike McMillan. 162 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:21,960 Speaker 1: Detectives Danny Varner and Mike Sidoriac would not let go 163 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:26,960 Speaker 1: of Mike. Detective Sidoriac had told the reporter quote, we 164 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:30,679 Speaker 1: want to show that our victim was in McMillan's vehicle, 165 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 1: referring to that hair found in Mike's truck, which, along 166 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:39,720 Speaker 1: with one of Dana's hares and George's DNA, had been 167 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:45,199 Speaker 1: submitted for testing. If you recall, in a previous episode, 168 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 1: the BCSO was focused on the idea that if Mike 169 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 1: McMillan had stolen Dana's grave marker, then that behavior somehow 170 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:59,079 Speaker 1: spoke to his guilt. So when you heard about Mike 171 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 1: McMillan making the grave marker from your daughter's grave, what 172 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 1: was your first thought? 173 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:05,679 Speaker 7: That he was a little chicken shit? 174 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:07,440 Speaker 6: Why chicken shit? 175 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 8: He went down there and he took something from a 176 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 8: little dead girl, and I didn't like it a little 177 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:18,679 Speaker 8: thing anyway. I don't like Mike McMillan, and I can't 178 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 8: stand his parents. 179 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:21,560 Speaker 6: Why do you think he did it? 180 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:26,720 Speaker 8: Because he's chicken shit? And that's just the truth of it. 181 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 8: He thought it might him look big. 182 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:33,600 Speaker 1: If Mike McMillan had been involved in Dana's murder. I 183 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 1: think the last thing the guy would want to do 184 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 1: is steal the marker from her grave. If he was 185 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 1: feeling nostalgic or upset, or, as Georgia said, wanted to 186 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:45,560 Speaker 1: show off, well, that would make more sense to me. 187 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:50,119 Speaker 1: Law enforcement seemed to be taking advantage of this situation 188 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:53,920 Speaker 1: in order to keep someone in their crosshairs, and that 189 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:58,640 Speaker 1: person was Mike. Still, they weren't the only ones who 190 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:01,400 Speaker 1: thought Mike knew war than he was saying. 191 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:04,040 Speaker 6: Did you ever consider him a suspect? 192 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:07,959 Speaker 8: Yes, I still think you knew who it was for 193 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:25,240 Speaker 8: a deadder and everything else, and I probably always will. 194 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:28,680 Speaker 1: When new information from a case comes in, I compare 195 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:32,679 Speaker 1: it to what I've learned up until that point. A 196 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 1: new thread can pop out of nowhere and things can 197 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 1: start to make sense or not. Sidoriak and Varner would 198 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 1: dialed into Mike McMillan, but they also continued interviewing scores 199 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 1: of other people. Mike eventually married and moved far away 200 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:55,079 Speaker 1: from Bella Vista. Here's his ex wife who we met 201 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 1: in the last episode and so when you guys, you know, 202 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 1: as the time went on, did law enforcement ever contact 203 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:02,520 Speaker 1: him again? 204 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:06,200 Speaker 3: Yes, they actually came and interviewed me first. 205 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 10: They took him. 206 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 3: They had him for like six or eight hours, showed 207 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 3: in pictures, you know, the hole graphic how they do it, 208 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 3: and he was pretty shaken up after that because it's 209 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 3: not something you want to see. So little background. My 210 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:24,520 Speaker 3: step dad was a chief of police in the town 211 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 3: where we lived, so I grew up around law enforcement 212 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:31,040 Speaker 3: and all that. They showed up at my work, two 213 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 3: detectives and asked to speak to me. They asked me 214 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 3: if Mike had any kind of personal possessions at the 215 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:44,079 Speaker 3: house that had like pictures of ex girlfriends and things 216 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:46,160 Speaker 3: like that, and I'm like, well, yeah, I mean everybody 217 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:48,320 Speaker 3: kind of has something like that from high school that 218 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:52,000 Speaker 3: you kept your notes in or your little momentos. And 219 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 3: they were like, oh, well, have you ever seen this 220 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:58,920 Speaker 3: perse and this, And I'm like no, And they asked 221 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:02,360 Speaker 3: if they could take it, and I was young and 222 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:05,520 Speaker 3: naive and I told him yes. So they went to 223 00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 3: my house and got that box. They interviewed Mike shortly. 224 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:13,680 Speaker 6: After that, and he was shaken up about them coming again. 225 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 3: Was just playing these pictures that they said Ordina out 226 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:20,440 Speaker 3: in front of him. It would shake anybody yet, but 227 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 3: he's like, I didn't do it. I don't know if 228 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:23,200 Speaker 3: it did it. 229 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 1: You know, I was able to obtain the recording of 230 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 1: this marathon interview. Detective Danny Varner begins. 231 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 11: She shouldn't hear about the skeletal The folks still don't know, 232 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 11: but got there do. 233 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 1: The audio in that previous clip has degraded over time, 234 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 1: but Detective Varner says, little old skeletal remains and that's it. 235 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 1: Her folks still don't know. Well, but God does, don't 236 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:07,840 Speaker 1: he And Mike McMillan responds, Yeah, he does. That's what 237 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 1: I am counting on. Werner then used a carefully chosen 238 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:17,560 Speaker 1: tactic by trying to align Mike with the harshest criminals, 239 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 1: strategically in my opinion, to scare him. 240 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 11: Like we interview people all the time, We've interviewed murderers, 241 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:34,080 Speaker 11: ripest murderers, child molestors, and watching you here today, you've 242 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 11: got the gestures in that seat and you're cool. I 243 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:40,680 Speaker 11: won't say you're I'm playing right, man. You're cool. 244 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:45,160 Speaker 12: You've learned to live with this and it's been your lifestyle, 245 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 12: and it makes it easy by the way you talk, 246 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:55,040 Speaker 12: and by your way you deny your. 247 00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 1: Our man, they accuse him. They put tremendous pressure on 248 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 1: Mike to admit he killed Dana, but he continues to 249 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 1: say what he has always said, even interrupting them at 250 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 1: times to stand up for himself. 251 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 11: And you know, we got you, man. 252 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 10: It's gonna look a lot better on you. You just say, listen, 253 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 10: I don't do it. 254 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 11: I think you did. 255 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 13: If you put me into afore you getting wrong and. 256 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 1: Somebody get away, then Danny Varner does something we don't 257 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 1: expect upstanding officers to do. He lies. 258 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:32,760 Speaker 14: I don't think so much. 259 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 11: I don't have somebody else to think. 260 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 10: A pan in her car, Well, you got somebody else 261 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 10: getting little murder. 262 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:46,040 Speaker 1: The BCSO did not have Mike's fingerprints inside Dana's car. 263 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 1: They had no fingerprints. In fact, lying, however, is totally 264 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 1: within the boundaries when you're interviewing a suspect, and I 265 00:16:55,120 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 1: understand why detectives sometimes do it. This of you was 266 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 1: conducted close to the time Mike willingly gave his blood 267 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:07,880 Speaker 1: and hair for DNA comparison. As I stated in an 268 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 1: earlier episode. People like to put a face on evil. 269 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:15,240 Speaker 1: It helps them deal with the pain and loss. But 270 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 1: as Mike McMillan told me, they decided that I had 271 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:22,080 Speaker 1: done this and that was it. 272 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:23,879 Speaker 10: Both of you. 273 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 11: I agree with that it's been none. And Andrew tell 274 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:36,359 Speaker 11: us michaelcmillan that if you get it. 275 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:41,280 Speaker 1: Varner then gets into the grave marker Mike was arrested 276 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:41,880 Speaker 1: for stealing. 277 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:48,480 Speaker 10: Tell us how long he was after at the cemetary. Oh, 278 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:51,800 Speaker 10: it's been five minutes. It's been five hours. 279 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:53,240 Speaker 11: What do you think? 280 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:59,879 Speaker 1: It doesn't matter this night, of course, had been years before. 281 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:04,400 Speaker 1: As the interview continues, they talk about how Mike's alibi 282 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:07,760 Speaker 1: fell apart when they interviewed the girl he claimed to 283 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:11,159 Speaker 1: have been with that night. They talk about how the 284 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:14,760 Speaker 1: truck Mike drove was his dad's and it fit the 285 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 1: description they had of the person parked behind Dana that morning, 286 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 1: evidence that was all highly circumstantial at best. They then 287 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:30,000 Speaker 1: focused on a picture of Dana they found inside Mike's house. 288 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:43,760 Speaker 13: Oh there, sure, I'm taking out? Oh good, okay, Well, 289 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:45,800 Speaker 13: I know I screwed up. I'm taking a little mark 290 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:49,480 Speaker 13: or do, but I don't get where all the rest 291 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:52,399 Speaker 13: of the ship comes from. 292 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:54,480 Speaker 10: I mean, I understand it's just a little town and 293 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:59,560 Speaker 10: get one of the things that I don't understand. How 294 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 10: even after I walk in and say, hey, look I did, 295 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 10: I'm sorry they did. You know I was stupid for 296 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 10: doing it. That's mitly what happened. 297 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:10,879 Speaker 13: Mike asked me whether or not I who took the marker, 298 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:14,760 Speaker 13: and I said, yeah, I did, And he said, well, 299 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:15,560 Speaker 13: hold on, we need to. 300 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:20,440 Speaker 10: Read your rus I remember that perfectly because that's important 301 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 10: to me. I got arristed that day. 302 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:27,679 Speaker 1: Throughout this entire interview, they kept ratcheting up the pressure 303 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 1: on Mike. At one point, they raised the idea of 304 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:36,639 Speaker 1: capital felony murder charges, which brought in the possibility of 305 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 1: the death penalty. This approach, which potentially crosses a line 306 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:48,280 Speaker 1: into intimidation, was specifically designed to scare Mike into a confession, 307 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:58,040 Speaker 1: but Mike kept insisting that he did not kill Dana. 308 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 10: To get me contend to something mindy and do it, 309 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:07,879 Speaker 10: which is all at all? Could you take her for 310 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 10: a rise? 311 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:13,439 Speaker 1: Love Warner got into the polygraphs they had given to 312 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:17,880 Speaker 1: over a dozen people by that Mike had taken one 313 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:23,200 Speaker 1: during the early days of the investigation, and passed years later, 314 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:28,000 Speaker 1: he took a second one. During the second polygraph, he 315 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 1: was asked if he was with Dana the day she disappeared, 316 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 1: if at the time Dana was killed, he did anything 317 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:39,760 Speaker 1: to cause her death, and was he present when Dana's 318 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:44,400 Speaker 1: body was left in that creek bed. Mike answered no 319 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 1: to each question. In the official report, the polygraphist said 320 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:55,919 Speaker 1: the results created quote such a pattern as to indicate 321 00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:59,920 Speaker 1: he was deceptive in answering all of the relevant questions. 322 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:03,720 Speaker 1: When asked about his responses and how he'd scored on 323 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:09,360 Speaker 1: the test, Mike said, quote, sometimes I think I did 324 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:15,840 Speaker 1: kill Dana, but I know I didn't. The polygraph examiner 325 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:20,240 Speaker 1: concluded that, in his opinion, Mike was responsible for the 326 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:26,520 Speaker 1: death of Dana Stidham. During his interview with Sidoriak and Varner, 327 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:30,520 Speaker 1: the two detectives brought up that failed polygraph. 328 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 10: How can they help? If I asked him, you can't. 329 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:35,880 Speaker 5: The same questions. 330 00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 10: I didn't have anything to do with Ames Todham's dead. 331 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 1: If you were to read press reports only about Mike McMillan, 332 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 1: you'd walk away feeling that he was hiding something and 333 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:55,760 Speaker 1: possibly committed this crime. But listening to him in these interviews, 334 00:21:55,960 --> 00:22:00,159 Speaker 1: how direct and sharp, he is not one bit nervous. 335 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 1: It clear he is emphatically denying any involvement this, mind you, 336 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:08,560 Speaker 1: As he is poked and prodded and accused of it 337 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:12,879 Speaker 1: over and over for years and years, he sticks to 338 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:18,919 Speaker 1: his story and never waivers. They thought they could break me, 339 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:24,320 Speaker 1: Mike told me when I interviewed him. Throughout the police interview, 340 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 1: Mike continues to repeat himself, I didn't. 341 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:33,359 Speaker 10: Have anything to do with things. Tom's dead. Did you 342 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:51,680 Speaker 10: ever do anything by yourself? Took dance Jim. 343 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 1: Such benign questions which have very little to do with 344 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:08,120 Speaker 1: evidence and everything to do with tunnel vision and closing 345 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 1: a case. I obtained the FBI report from the hair 346 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:19,840 Speaker 1: blood analysis, the only forensic evidence in Dana's case. The 347 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:24,280 Speaker 1: BCSO says it has, and here's a quote from it. 348 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:28,879 Speaker 1: The DNA sequences from the hair and specimen from Georgia 349 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 1: Stidham are different. Therefore, Dana's dittum can be eliminated as 350 00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:39,760 Speaker 1: the donor of the head haair found inside Mike McMillan's vehicle. 351 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:45,480 Speaker 1: The BCSO had no forensics to back up what I 352 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:50,640 Speaker 1: would call a very weak, circumstantial case against Mike McMillan. 353 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:56,400 Speaker 1: The case, including the second polygraph, which Mike allegedly failed, 354 00:23:56,840 --> 00:24:01,480 Speaker 1: was sent to the district attorney. Mc millan has never 355 00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:07,200 Speaker 1: been charged. But why after trailing him and pressing him 356 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:12,840 Speaker 1: for years. The simple answer is they had no evidence 357 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:17,400 Speaker 1: against him, because no matter how much the BCSO believed 358 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:21,280 Speaker 1: that Mike McMillan had murdered Dana, they didn't have any 359 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:26,760 Speaker 1: tangible proof to support such an accusation or make it stick. 360 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:33,399 Speaker 1: Here's former Benton County Prosecutor Nathan Smith, whom you've heard 361 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:34,879 Speaker 1: in previous episodes. 362 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 14: Sometimes in cases there's too many suspects and they all 363 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:40,960 Speaker 14: look good, right. 364 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 9: Part of the problem with that is if you have 365 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:46,360 Speaker 9: one or two other pretty good suspects, that's almost by 366 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:50,400 Speaker 9: definition reasonable doubt. And so when you have multiple suspects 367 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 9: out there from a time where it was difficult to 368 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:58,479 Speaker 9: collect the kind of evidence we get today routinely, that 369 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 9: could be a problem. I can't imagine the pressure in 370 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:06,000 Speaker 9: nineteen eighty nine, nineteen ninety to make an arrest, to 371 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:10,320 Speaker 9: make the arrest, and I actually think looking back that 372 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:13,280 Speaker 9: the investigators who worked on it at the time probably 373 00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:16,640 Speaker 9: should be commended for not making you an arrest simply 374 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:20,480 Speaker 9: because if the evidence isn't there, you don't want to 375 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 9: start the process. 376 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:26,679 Speaker 14: Now, just stepping back a minute too, the murder scene 377 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:32,040 Speaker 14: or where the body dumps sight, so, was there evidence there, 378 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:35,639 Speaker 14: any type of evidence that could lead to somebody like, 379 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:39,880 Speaker 14: is there something to test if you know, you develop 380 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:40,800 Speaker 14: a good suspect. 381 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 9: Well, I guess at this point I've got to be 382 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:45,840 Speaker 9: careful not to, you know, get out in front of 383 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:49,359 Speaker 9: the skis of the actual investigation. But certainly anything that 384 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:54,160 Speaker 9: we have today it becomes easier and easier going forward 385 00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:57,080 Speaker 9: to do those kinds of testings. Now that the real 386 00:25:57,160 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 9: issue is if you're referencing DNA or whatever, unless you 387 00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:03,240 Speaker 9: just say, in a normal case, is was their DNA 388 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:06,920 Speaker 9: evidence preserved that can be tested today? Do you remember 389 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:09,399 Speaker 9: nineteen eighty nine that wasn't a thing people were doing, right, 390 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,360 Speaker 9: They didn't think about doing that. So I think it's 391 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,560 Speaker 9: really going to be just leaning into the facts more 392 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:19,240 Speaker 9: and trying to uncover any additional information. 393 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:29,080 Speaker 1: Although Mike McMillan somewhat faded from the public picture as 394 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 1: a suspect, the BCSO were still searching for a piece 395 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 1: of evidence that could tie him to the murder which 396 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:40,919 Speaker 1: they would never find. And yet the entire time the 397 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:45,760 Speaker 1: BCSO was pursuing Mike McMillan, there was a different suspect. 398 00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:49,560 Speaker 1: They had their eye on, a guy unknown to the public, 399 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:54,159 Speaker 1: a much better suspect who was being looked at once again, 400 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:59,400 Speaker 1: when all of a sudden, Dana's case took a remarkable turn. 401 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:11,439 Speaker 1: It's impossible to overestimate the depth of loss of family 402 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:16,160 Speaker 1: experiences when a young person is murdered, or the feelings 403 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:20,760 Speaker 1: associated with that loss as they manifest and increments over time. 404 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:30,639 Speaker 1: You see, grief is universal. It comes in five stages denial, anger, bargaining, depression, 405 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:36,000 Speaker 1: and acceptance, with pangs of guilt being an unofficial sixth. 406 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:42,240 Speaker 1: Dana was eighteen years old. She missed out on so 407 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:46,199 Speaker 1: much life, but even more than that, she was missed. 408 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:52,440 Speaker 1: Time doesn't change that, and I think law enforcement especially 409 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,880 Speaker 1: must be careful when a case runs cold. What they do, 410 00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:00,840 Speaker 1: what they say, what they don't say, how they respond 411 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:07,959 Speaker 1: to suspects, and undoubtedly to victims' families. Dana's cousin, Christy Smith, 412 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 1: put it quite sincerely to. 413 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:14,520 Speaker 15: Me, it was a lost a lot of family that 414 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:18,480 Speaker 15: was very sad and very worried and very confused. The 415 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:22,399 Speaker 15: police didn't seem too worried. Still, it just seemed like 416 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:24,399 Speaker 15: there was a lot of things that should have been 417 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:27,200 Speaker 15: done that wasn't. That I don't believe was handled correctly. 418 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:30,480 Speaker 15: Like they only kept a car for a few days 419 00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:32,800 Speaker 15: and then they gave it back to her parents. I mean, 420 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 15: if the last place she was known to have been 421 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,760 Speaker 15: was in her car, why would you not keep the car, 422 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:42,640 Speaker 15: you know, for future reference, right. I think it was just, 423 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:45,440 Speaker 15: you know, we weren't I don't believe that our police 424 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:47,840 Speaker 15: departments at that time were handled to handle a case 425 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 15: like this. 426 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 1: As investigators continued to reinterview co workers and employees at 427 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 1: Phillip's grocery, a name emerged, a name that had been 428 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:02,800 Speaker 1: there all along. He's never been mentioned publicly in this case, 429 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 1: so I'm going to call him Jack Lenny, a local 430 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:11,560 Speaker 1: older guy with a reputation for not only hanging around 431 00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:17,240 Speaker 1: Phillips Grocery daily, but sexually harassing women throughout his entire 432 00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:22,360 Speaker 1: adult life. And by reputation I mean a documented trail 433 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:27,960 Speaker 1: of serial sexual harassment of the worst kind wherever this 434 00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 1: dude went. By the time I met investigative journalist Brandon 435 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,880 Speaker 1: Howard in twenty twenty three. He had done a lot 436 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:42,680 Speaker 1: of work on Jack Lenny And to be clear, this 437 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 1: is not the same man from earlier in the podcast, 438 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:50,760 Speaker 1: the guy I referred to as the perverb who liked 439 00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 1: dirty magazines and lived up near Wellington Road, close to 440 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:56,040 Speaker 1: where Dana's car was found. 441 00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:00,760 Speaker 16: Well there was another suspect at the store who worked 442 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:03,360 Speaker 16: in the area and was sexually harassing some of the women. 443 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:06,800 Speaker 16: But beyond the harassment in the store, he was also 444 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:10,280 Speaker 16: following them on the highway, and he had a long 445 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:14,800 Speaker 16: history of picking up hitchhikers, harassment at other stores in 446 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:18,840 Speaker 16: the Bellevista area, and vehicles that seemed to match more 447 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:22,080 Speaker 16: closely with what witnesses reported seeing behind Dania's vehicle the 448 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:25,440 Speaker 16: day she disappeared. That made me way more interested in 449 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:28,480 Speaker 16: him and how little he was fleshed out. 450 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:32,560 Speaker 1: Brandon means and I agree that this suspect was not 451 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:37,360 Speaker 1: pursued anywhere near as aggressively as Mike McMillan, which raises 452 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:39,760 Speaker 1: the question, why the hell not. 453 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:43,800 Speaker 6: Let's talk about him for a minute. What's his background like? 454 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:48,600 Speaker 16: This is a person who's well educated, as I would say, 455 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:53,560 Speaker 16: a few degrees, but works way below their station, does 456 00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:58,400 Speaker 16: lots of construction jobs, can't keep jobs very long. Had 457 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:04,480 Speaker 16: actually been in the teaching profession, but potential harassment incidents 458 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:11,680 Speaker 16: also derailed that career. They were also the victim of 459 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:18,520 Speaker 16: a major brain injury that seemed to unencumber their potency 460 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:23,000 Speaker 16: for sexual deviancy and self control. 461 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 6: So you're saying the suspect had a brain injury and 462 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:29,440 Speaker 6: ever since then has been out of control with sexual 463 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:31,640 Speaker 6: harassment and even sexual assault. 464 00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:32,240 Speaker 16: Sure. 465 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:36,680 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I'm looking at the timeline you created, 466 00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:42,600 Speaker 1: and what just blows my mind is it's not one, two, 467 00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:45,680 Speaker 1: three girls over a period of time. 468 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:50,040 Speaker 6: It's five, six, seven, eight who don't know each other, 469 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:54,040 Speaker 6: definitely telling the same story about this one guy. 470 00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:59,480 Speaker 16: Voracious appetite is the best. I mean, he's insatiable. It 471 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:05,800 Speaker 16: seems that woman or job or building as in a 472 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:09,479 Speaker 16: grocery store or outlet he frequents, has not had a 473 00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:14,720 Speaker 16: story of some unnerving incident of harassment or behavior we 474 00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:16,760 Speaker 16: would consider stalking. I would consider stalking. 475 00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:19,480 Speaker 6: I mean, this isn't cat calling. This is be way 476 00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:21,440 Speaker 6: beyond that sort of thing. 477 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:26,240 Speaker 16: It's frightening. It seems, you know, like someone, it seems 478 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,960 Speaker 16: to check all the boxes for a sexual predator, going 479 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:33,200 Speaker 16: into the store with a hood on their face, standing 480 00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:37,400 Speaker 16: behind the women, oggling them, making circles around the store, 481 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:40,640 Speaker 16: sneaking up behind them, waiting for them in the parking 482 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:43,440 Speaker 16: lot after work, following them on the highway, trying to 483 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:46,760 Speaker 16: pull them over, in some cases, groping them. 484 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:51,760 Speaker 1: You start looking into this guy, and one of the 485 00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:55,680 Speaker 1: things that I do is I look to exclude people 486 00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:59,920 Speaker 1: with this guy. Can you exclude him from Dana's case? 487 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:04,280 Speaker 16: Yes, I would argue no. The best exclusion probably would 488 00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:07,040 Speaker 16: have been his alibi, which initially was that he was 489 00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:08,640 Speaker 16: not in the area and that he was at a 490 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 16: family reunion. That's refuted by the evidence that they found 491 00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:16,560 Speaker 16: that he worked the week of Dana's disappearance in Bella Vista, 492 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:21,840 Speaker 16: a full work week, I think, even some overtime. Now, 493 00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:25,640 Speaker 16: the biggest attraction is that most of the sexual harassment, 494 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:28,080 Speaker 16: if not all, the sexual harassment incidents at the store, 495 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:32,680 Speaker 16: occurred in nineteen ninety three, four years after Dana's murder, 496 00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:36,800 Speaker 16: but we know he was in the area in nineteen 497 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:37,320 Speaker 16: eighty nine. 498 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:41,480 Speaker 1: I began looking deeper into this dude's life, talking to 499 00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:45,600 Speaker 1: my sources in Benton County and beyond about him. I 500 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:49,840 Speaker 1: also heard there were recorded interviews that BCSO had done 501 00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:54,280 Speaker 1: with him about Dana's case, which I set out to find. 502 00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:58,840 Speaker 1: Each source. I spoke to, many of whom you'll soon 503 00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:04,360 Speaker 1: hear in the podcast. Knew Jack Lenny very well, including 504 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:08,360 Speaker 1: no fewer than five in law enforcement, and every single 505 00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:12,439 Speaker 1: one of them said the same thing. Lenny could most 506 00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:18,320 Speaker 1: certainly be responsible for Dana's murder, but also additional homicides 507 00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:24,960 Speaker 1: throughout the Ozarks. And wouldn't you know. As Lenny's name 508 00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:28,880 Speaker 1: pops up on the bcso's radar in late nineteen ninety, 509 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:37,680 Speaker 1: something happens, something incredible, something changing the entire dynamic of 510 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:47,640 Speaker 1: Dana's case. It's December two, nineteen ninety and elderly couple 511 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:52,680 Speaker 1: Linda and Randy Grohler are walking along Oscar Tally Road, 512 00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:57,400 Speaker 1: just east of Indian Creek in Anderson, Missouri, only twenty 513 00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:01,520 Speaker 1: minutes north of Bella Vista, where INA's body was found 514 00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:05,839 Speaker 1: the previous year. The main route near Oscar Tally Road 515 00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:10,759 Speaker 1: is fifty nine or North Main Street. Oscar Tally is 516 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:14,759 Speaker 1: off that the rollers live in a small house near 517 00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:18,600 Speaker 1: the end of the road, and we. 518 00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:21,880 Speaker 7: Had came home, got her dinner going in the oven, 519 00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:24,920 Speaker 7: and we went for a walk because I have back problems, 520 00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:27,919 Speaker 7: so one of the deals is take a hike. And 521 00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:31,000 Speaker 7: we went for a walk and we were picking up 522 00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:36,520 Speaker 7: cans for the church to sell for our sighting aluminum cans. 523 00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:40,000 Speaker 7: You know, you do what you can. And on the 524 00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:44,360 Speaker 7: way back we were just within maybe a block and 525 00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:47,120 Speaker 7: a half of the house. There was just around the 526 00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:50,040 Speaker 7: curve up there. It was a deserted house. 527 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:54,680 Speaker 1: That deserted house was on its last legs, just waiting 528 00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:57,640 Speaker 1: for the right gust of wind to come along and 529 00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:00,920 Speaker 1: flatten it. 530 00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:03,520 Speaker 7: To grass had grown and the leaves, everything had been 531 00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:06,480 Speaker 7: knocked down. And Rady told me, he says, it's looking 532 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:10,799 Speaker 7: as grass because it's kind of windloan and stuff, and 533 00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:14,600 Speaker 7: maybe we'll find some cans in here. And I said okay, 534 00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:21,160 Speaker 7: And then he was all of a sudden, he says, Linda, 535 00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:26,360 Speaker 7: I see a skull. I says, oh, surely not. But 536 00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:29,840 Speaker 7: I went back there with him and we saw the skull, 537 00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:34,200 Speaker 7: and then on further looking we could see the rest 538 00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:39,200 Speaker 7: of the body on the kind of a lean to 539 00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:43,000 Speaker 7: on the old house, on a concrete slab. We could 540 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:47,839 Speaker 7: see the rest of the body. 541 00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:53,040 Speaker 1: If you are enjoying Paper Ghosts, check out my weekly podcast, 542 00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:56,560 Speaker 1: Crossing the Line with m William Phelps wherever you get 543 00:36:56,760 --> 00:37:01,239 Speaker 1: your favorite shows. Coming up next time Paper Ghosts. 544 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:05,799 Speaker 17: The stoll was detatched from the body and the ribcage 545 00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:10,040 Speaker 17: was detached from the body. You know, the only clothes 546 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:12,640 Speaker 17: that was on the body that we found was where 547 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:16,719 Speaker 17: the elves and legs were in ten shows it had. 548 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:17,400 Speaker 17: She had ten of. 549 00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:18,000 Speaker 11: Shoes on it. 550 00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:22,440 Speaker 3: He can validate there was a party. He can validate 551 00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:23,960 Speaker 3: that the kids said there was a screen. 552 00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:27,000 Speaker 7: I'm not tooting my horn here, but I'm not out 553 00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:30,040 Speaker 7: to give up on it, and I have reason to 554 00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:32,200 Speaker 7: believe that it will be solved. 555 00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:36,680 Speaker 1: Paper Ghosts Season four is written and executive produced by 556 00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:41,680 Speaker 1: me Em William Phelps and Catherine Law. Script consulting Rose Bachi, 557 00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:46,040 Speaker 1: audio editing and mixing by Brandon Dickert, and sound design 558 00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:49,320 Speaker 1: by Matt Russell. The series theme number four four to 559 00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:59,320 Speaker 1: two is written and performed by Thomas Phelps and Tom Mooney.