1 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly 2 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small 3 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions 4 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:26,480 Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford, 5 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or 6 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:35,480 Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website 7 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:39,280 Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you 8 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is 9 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:46,280 Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with 10 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:57,760 Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much 11 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:00,080 Speaker 1: for joining me for session three fifty five of the 12 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girl's podcast. We'll get right into our 13 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:05,600 Speaker 1: conversation after a word from our sponsors. 14 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 2: Hi. My name is Alua Arthur and I'm on the 15 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 2: Therapy for Black Girls podcast. I'm in session today unpacking 16 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:13,680 Speaker 2: my work as a death doula. 17 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:26,560 Speaker 1: It is guaranteed that everyone on this earth will eventually die, 18 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:30,400 Speaker 1: and yet the process is made difficult with considerations such 19 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 1: as appointing and authorized representative, leaving dependents behind, and other 20 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 1: bureaucratic formalities that can be outright cruel to deal with. 21 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 1: When you're already experiencing grief. Stepping in to help with 22 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:46,280 Speaker 1: these considerations are death doulas, who work to make this 23 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: monumental transition as smooth as possible for both the dying 24 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 1: and their families. To talk with us today about what 25 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 1: it means to be a death doulah, I'm joined by 26 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 1: death doulah and newly published author of the memoir Briefly 27 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 1: Perfect Human Ailua. Author Alua is the founder of Going 28 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 1: with Grace, a death doulah training and end of life 29 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:09,680 Speaker 1: planning organization that exists to support people as they answer 30 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:12,600 Speaker 1: the question what must I do to be at peace 31 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 1: with myself so that I may live presently and die gracefully. 32 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 1: In our conversation today, we discuss the training and certifications 33 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:25,680 Speaker 1: required to become a death doulah, how deathdulas assist both 34 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:28,920 Speaker 1: the dying and their families in making end of life decisions, 35 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 1: and how dying means becoming comfortable with the idea of 36 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 1: leaning on our community for support. If something resonates with 37 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:39,640 Speaker 1: you while enjoying our conversation, please share with us on 38 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 1: social media using the hashtag TBG in session, or join 39 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 1: us in the Sister Circle to talk more about the episode. 40 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 1: You can join us at community dot therapy for Blackgirls 41 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:57,400 Speaker 1: dot com. Here's our conversation. Heylua, thank you so much 42 00:02:57,440 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 1: for joining us today. 43 00:02:58,720 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. 44 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's an honor to chat with you. So I 45 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:04,359 Speaker 1: wonder if you could get started by telling us a 46 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:07,560 Speaker 1: little bit about what inspired you to go into doing 47 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:09,519 Speaker 1: the work of being a death doula. 48 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:13,359 Speaker 2: Sure. About ten years ago, I was practicing law at 49 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:16,920 Speaker 2: the Legal Aid Foundation of Los Angeles, and I grew 50 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:20,800 Speaker 2: really really depressed, clinical depression, and I took a medical 51 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:24,079 Speaker 2: leave of absence from work, and during that leave of absence, 52 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 2: I went to Cuba, where I met a fellow traveler 53 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:29,639 Speaker 2: on a bus who had uterine cancer. We spent a 54 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:31,640 Speaker 2: lot of time talking about her life. Then I started 55 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 2: asking her about her death and she answered, and it 56 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 2: was one of the first times that she felt safe enough, 57 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:40,880 Speaker 2: comfortable enough to discuss the potential for her dying from 58 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 2: her disease. And it made me really sad that this 59 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:46,440 Speaker 2: stranger had nobody that she could talk to death about. 60 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 2: But also for the first time I started looking at 61 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 2: my own life through the lens of my death. We 62 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:56,840 Speaker 2: both had terminal illnesses. If left untreated depression certainly being 63 00:03:56,880 --> 00:04:00,080 Speaker 2: one of them in my estimation anyway, And so I 64 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 2: considered if my disease had killed me, what would I 65 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 2: have made of my life? And I wasn't happy with 66 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:06,480 Speaker 2: what I saw, and so I decided to make some 67 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 2: changes in my life, which included studying death. But about 68 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 2: six months after I came back from Cuba, my brother 69 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:16,479 Speaker 2: in law, Peter Saint John, became ill and I got 70 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:18,279 Speaker 2: to support him through the end of his life. And 71 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 2: that's when I saw firsthand the grim reality of people 72 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:24,880 Speaker 2: walking through the medical care system engaging with death and dying. 73 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 2: And I didn't like what I saw there either, So 74 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:29,120 Speaker 2: I decided to do something about that too, and built 75 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:30,240 Speaker 2: a death doula practice. 76 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 1: Wow, So tell me more about when you said you 77 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:37,279 Speaker 1: started learning more about death. Were you enrolled in formal courses, 78 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:39,120 Speaker 1: were you reading books? What was that practice? 79 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 2: Like? I read everything I could get my hands on. 80 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 2: I talked to everybody about death. I mean, I'm talking 81 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 2: about the cashier at CVS and write aid, Okay, I'd 82 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 2: be like, have you ever thought about dying? Kind of 83 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:52,599 Speaker 2: like the Barbie movie. I just was so full of 84 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 2: the conversation. I also found a death Midwiffrey program here 85 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:01,479 Speaker 2: in Los Angeles through an organization called Crossings, where I 86 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:04,839 Speaker 2: learned how to care for bodies after death and natural 87 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 2: death care principles and practices like green burials, et cetera. 88 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 2: But the practice that I have right now, the one 89 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:14,679 Speaker 2: that I built, is one that I learned from studying 90 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 2: a bunch of different practice areas. Like I went to 91 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 2: my estate planning friends and asked them to sit with 92 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:23,040 Speaker 2: them as they walk people through wills and trusts and 93 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:25,840 Speaker 2: the states. I got a job at an I'll turnative 94 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 2: funeral home. I volunteered at hospices, got a job at 95 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:31,599 Speaker 2: a hospice. I did as much as I could to 96 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 2: learn what it looked like to properly support people through 97 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 2: dying to build the practice that I have right now. 98 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:39,839 Speaker 1: Wow, thank you for sharing it. And I'm curious to 99 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:42,480 Speaker 1: know how you have been able to take care of 100 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 1: your own mental health doing this kind of work and 101 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:48,359 Speaker 1: if you saw any change in your depressive symptoms after 102 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 1: switching to doing this kind of work. 103 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 2: I felt a massive change in my depressive symptoms. Don't 104 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 2: get me wrong, I think depression is something that I'll 105 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 2: probably dance with my entire life. Maybe it's in my 106 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 2: chemistry and my DNA, it's just in the way that 107 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 2: I experienced the world. But I did feel a shift, 108 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 2: majorly because at the time I wasn't capable of much 109 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:10,479 Speaker 2: of anything. I couldn't make meals, showering I only did 110 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:12,919 Speaker 2: because I didn't want to stink, But other than that, 111 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 2: I wasn't really capable of doing much. And what I 112 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 2: found through my work was that well, mostly through being 113 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:22,360 Speaker 2: with death and dying is first of all, the impermanence 114 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:26,919 Speaker 2: in any emotional mental state that I'm experiencing, which allows 115 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:28,400 Speaker 2: me to just be with it for what it is 116 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:30,400 Speaker 2: and not think it's never going to end, which is 117 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:33,320 Speaker 2: certainly something that I felt in the depths of my depression. 118 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 2: But next, also I have a little bit more clarity 119 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:40,479 Speaker 2: of purpose of being. And I don't mean in my 120 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:44,880 Speaker 2: work necessarily. While I thoroughly enjoy my work, I've gotten 121 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:47,280 Speaker 2: a chance to sit with why I'm here and what 122 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:51,160 Speaker 2: I enjoy about being here, which allows me to reframe 123 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:54,479 Speaker 2: often when the symptoms come back, or when things start 124 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 2: getting to feel like I can't carry them anymore. 125 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:00,200 Speaker 1: So talk to me about your work. What does does 126 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:01,960 Speaker 1: a day look like as a death. 127 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:05,280 Speaker 2: Doulah sure for starters, let me just define so death 128 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 2: doulas do all of the non medical Karen support of 129 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 2: the dying person and the circle of support through the process. 130 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 2: And when I say dying person, I mean anybody who 131 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 2: has some awareness that one day death will come, which 132 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 2: means healthy people too that have started to live with 133 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 2: awareness of their mortality. We help healthy people complete comprehensive 134 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 2: end of life plans, and people that know what it 135 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 2: is that they're going to be dying of because they 136 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 2: have an illness, we help them create the most ideal 137 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 2: death for themselves under the circumstances. And after a death occurs, 138 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 2: we help family members wrap up affairs of their loved 139 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 2: one's life. A day in life typically looks like waking 140 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 2: up and checking to see who's still living. First of all, 141 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 2: a lot of gratitude that I woke up that morning, 142 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:50,880 Speaker 2: and next also checking in to see what happened with 143 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:53,640 Speaker 2: my clients overnight, probably go to a few end of 144 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 2: life planning consultations, do some home visits and check in 145 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:00,040 Speaker 2: with the clients to see how folks are doing, and 146 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 2: then a lot of emails and paperwork. One thing that 147 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:05,680 Speaker 2: I didn't really account for was that building a practice 148 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:08,280 Speaker 2: meant that I was going to be an entrepreneur, which 149 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 2: meant that I had to build a business and run 150 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 2: a business. And that is not for the faint of heart. Okay, 151 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 2: So that was one of the most surprising difficulties in 152 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 2: getting this whole thing up and running. 153 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:21,840 Speaker 1: Can you tell me more about like an end of 154 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 1: life consultation? What does that look like? 155 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, that looks like helping somebody fill out their end 156 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:30,400 Speaker 2: of life plans and paperwork. Often I'm working with healthy 157 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 2: people when doing this, So we walk through an advanced 158 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 2: planning tool that covers about nine basic areas to make 159 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 2: sure that folks have a lot of their plans down. 160 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:42,840 Speaker 2: I think most important is that people complete advance directives, 161 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:46,920 Speaker 2: starting with your medical decision maker, who's going to make 162 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 2: your decisions for you in the event that you can 163 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:52,280 Speaker 2: the event that you become incapacitated. That person is also 164 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:56,720 Speaker 2: called a medical power attorney. Also important is life support 165 00:08:56,720 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 2: decision making. What do you want done in the event 166 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 2: that your life cannot be saved, but perhaps it can't 167 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 2: be prolonged for a bit longer, saving off natural death 168 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 2: from occurring. Also getting clear on your care and comfort, 169 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 2: how you want to be cared for near the end 170 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 2: of your life, what you want done with your body 171 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 2: after death, your services, considering your possessions, if you're going 172 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 2: to have a will or a trust or in a state, 173 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 2: what you want done, Also with your sentimental items, thinking 174 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 2: about your dependence and pet care, so dependence being children 175 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 2: or disabled adults that are under your care. Also considering 176 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:37,240 Speaker 2: all your biographical information and details. And then also all 177 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:41,080 Speaker 2: your accounts, your online accounts, like getting your passwords and 178 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 2: any accounts that hold financial information, making sure all those 179 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:46,560 Speaker 2: are in there. But the last thing, which I find 180 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:50,360 Speaker 2: most important is thinking through your values around living. Because 181 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 2: one beautiful thing that death does for us is put 182 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:55,959 Speaker 2: a highlight on our lives. And so if we can 183 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 2: think about the values that we have in our living 184 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:00,680 Speaker 2: and start getting clear on those right them down, that 185 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 2: can be a really really powerful tool and end of 186 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:02,960 Speaker 2: life planning. 187 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 1: And is this something that's typically done in conjunction with 188 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 1: other family members? Is there software involved in like housing 189 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 1: all the passwords and thinking through. 190 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 2: The logistics of all of this great questions. I love 191 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:20,320 Speaker 2: having families involved. Once about maybe three years or so ago, 192 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:23,600 Speaker 2: I got to support three generations and end of life planning. 193 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:27,080 Speaker 2: So they all came together around a dinner table and 194 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:30,079 Speaker 2: the living room. There was probably about sixteen people there 195 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 2: and everybody filled out these documents. It's analog because I'm 196 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 2: a still very analog girl, but it's a document that 197 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:40,240 Speaker 2: I created where we talked through all the items in there, 198 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:43,199 Speaker 2: and then they get to keep it for the account cataloging. 199 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:46,560 Speaker 2: Often I suggest that people write down the accounts that 200 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 2: hold financial information such as like Amazon and eBay, and 201 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:55,080 Speaker 2: places where your credit card information might be saved, including 202 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:59,439 Speaker 2: your banking information, etc. So that those can be easily accessed. 203 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 2: And I also encourage folks to sign up for some 204 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:04,720 Speaker 2: password storage systems. 205 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:08,120 Speaker 1: And how are people typically like finding you to work 206 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 1: with you? What does your caseload I guess kind of 207 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:12,200 Speaker 1: look like, Well, it looks like. 208 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 2: A lot of different things. Lately, I'm not seeing clients 209 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 2: as much because I've gotten really really busy with my 210 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:21,160 Speaker 2: book that's coming out and teaching death doulas. But people 211 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:24,240 Speaker 2: find me a variety of ways. I think from all 212 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 2: of the word of mouth, because I've been able to 213 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:30,280 Speaker 2: be with quite a few people in their considerations around dying, 214 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 2: and also through students, which is really great because folks 215 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:36,840 Speaker 2: come to learn how to become a death dola and 216 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 2: then they start figuring the work out there. But I 217 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:43,560 Speaker 2: think that as the work starts to penetrate more of 218 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 2: mainstream society, people get curious about it and start going 219 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 2: snooping trying to find one. And I'm really happy that 220 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:50,200 Speaker 2: they do. 221 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, and as you're talking, you know, a 222 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 1: lot of your work sounds like what we might think 223 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 1: happens in hospice. But I wonder could you tell me, like, 224 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 1: what is the difference between the world work that you 225 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 1: do in traditional hospice and how might those two fields collaborate. 226 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:08,600 Speaker 2: I'm so glad you asked. They're really collaborative. If you 227 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 2: ask me, we can just be an extra set of hands, eyes, ears, 228 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:17,320 Speaker 2: human for the dying person in the family. Hospice often 229 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:19,960 Speaker 2: has they hold all the medical stuff, so the doctor, 230 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 2: the nurses, the CNAs of the ends, certified nursing assistants, 231 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:27,199 Speaker 2: licensed vocational nurse, et cetera. Folks that come in to 232 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:30,960 Speaker 2: handle the physical needs of the dying person. Grant that 233 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 2: there also is a chaplain and a social worker that 234 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 2: might be part of the hospice team. But we get 235 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 2: to be a really holistic care, So I'm looking at 236 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:43,440 Speaker 2: all of the client's needs in totality and making sure 237 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:45,720 Speaker 2: that everything is covered. So there are things that the 238 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 2: hospice team won't do or can't do necessarily that the 239 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:51,079 Speaker 2: doula can do. Also, I can be available when I 240 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 2: choose to be twenty four hours a day, whereas you 241 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:56,239 Speaker 2: can't expect the doctor to pop in whenever you might want. 242 00:12:56,559 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 1: Got it? And I feel like sometimes hospice care is 243 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 1: paid for by insurance. 244 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 2: Correct, Yes, a lot of times it should be covered 245 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:05,319 Speaker 2: okay care, Yeah, is. 246 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 1: Your work covered by insurance at all? 247 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:11,600 Speaker 2: It's still private pay for now, largely because of licensing 248 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 2: requirements et cetera that we haven't totally found a way 249 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 2: through yet. Got it. 250 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:16,360 Speaker 1: Got it? 251 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:16,880 Speaker 2: Okay? 252 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:19,679 Speaker 1: You say that sometimes like the family is involved with 253 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:22,440 Speaker 1: the planning. How much of your work involves talking with 254 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:25,960 Speaker 1: the family about the end of their loved ones life 255 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:27,120 Speaker 1: a lot. 256 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:30,600 Speaker 2: My job is to support people who have some awareness 257 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:33,160 Speaker 2: that death is coming, and that's not always a case 258 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 2: for somebody who's nearing the end of life. Some people 259 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 2: resist it all the way to the end, which means 260 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:41,240 Speaker 2: that I can be hired by the family members to 261 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 2: support them as they support the person who's dying. There's 262 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:46,720 Speaker 2: been many a time so when I've worked with a 263 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:50,120 Speaker 2: caregiver who says, Hey, this looks like a mess and 264 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:52,440 Speaker 2: it looks like death is coming, and what do I 265 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 2: need to do in order to prepare? What information do 266 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:57,440 Speaker 2: I need? Et cetera. Also, the folks that are around 267 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:01,160 Speaker 2: the dying person are also in a massive experience themselves 268 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:04,560 Speaker 2: and also require some support. They are maybe dealing with 269 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 2: anticipatory grief or frustration or anger or whatever may be, 270 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 2: and they need support too. So we focus on the 271 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 2: dying person and the circle of support through that process. 272 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:16,640 Speaker 2: So I'm curious. 273 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:18,440 Speaker 1: About all of the reading and the learning that you 274 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:21,000 Speaker 1: were doing as you were preparing to start your organization 275 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:23,880 Speaker 1: Going with Grace. What kinds of things did you learn 276 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 1: that you feel like have really become foundational to the 277 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 1: work you do with your organization. 278 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 2: For starters, I really sunk into the impermanence of everything, 279 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:37,840 Speaker 2: as I was just mentioning, is in order to be 280 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 2: with dying, we have to shift first, I think, into 281 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:46,080 Speaker 2: the psychosocial, spiritual elements of it to allow us to 282 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 2: get into the practical things as well. Because the practical 283 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 2: don't make any sense unless we're also dealing with the 284 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 2: other stuff. And so when I started to like zoom 285 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:57,160 Speaker 2: out and think about death and dying holistically is when 286 00:14:57,240 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 2: it allowed me to properly sit down and say, Okay, 287 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 2: what are the things that actually need to happen. Now 288 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:05,360 Speaker 2: there are different entry points for the work, and some 289 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 2: clients aren't interested in talking about the emotional, relational, psychosocial, 290 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 2: spiritual elements of dying but really just want to get 291 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 2: their stuff done. But did two always come together one 292 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:19,239 Speaker 2: way or another. So that was something that really supported 293 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 2: is thinking about dying theoretically and creating a framework for that. 294 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:26,200 Speaker 2: And then from there, as I had to learn about 295 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 2: how deep bureaucracy is after death occurs, that really started 296 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:34,560 Speaker 2: shifting the game for me. It's a whole beast after 297 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 2: somebody dies, trying to get all their fares wrapped up, 298 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:39,600 Speaker 2: and I was not prepared for that at all. 299 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about some of the 300 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:44,320 Speaker 1: things that surprised you with that process? 301 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 2: My gosh, after my brother in law died, I was 302 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:51,720 Speaker 2: trying to, briefly, I thought, brief help my sister before 303 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:53,920 Speaker 2: I left to go take care of myself. Because I'd 304 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 2: been with them for a couple of months at that point, 305 00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:58,120 Speaker 2: and it was not quick. It wasn't brief at all. 306 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:03,200 Speaker 2: I trying to transfer title of his car to his 307 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 2: nephew because we thought we'd just give the car away 308 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 2: after he dies. Turns out that's not the case at all. 309 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 2: It is a long drawn out process where the car 310 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 2: had to enter into the estate formerly and then through 311 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 2: the probate process. Then we had to determine who the 312 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 2: executor was going to be, and then the executor had 313 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 2: to go to the DMV and on and on and 314 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 2: on and on and on in order to do this. 315 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 2: That was just one thing, but also things like trying 316 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 2: to figure out what pension he'd held through his job, 317 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:32,720 Speaker 2: or trying to get access to his cell phone because 318 00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 2: we didn't have access to the passcode. I'd call or 319 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:39,560 Speaker 2: try to reach out to some system and they want 320 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 2: to talk to him to get verification. I'd be like, 321 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:43,720 Speaker 2: he's dead, Like it's part of the reason I called, 322 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:47,880 Speaker 2: just because he died. It was like an unending wellspring 323 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 2: of bureaucracy and a lot of blocks and obstacles in 324 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 2: that bureaucracy as well. It was very foolish of me 325 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:58,240 Speaker 2: to think that the bureaucratic rules would favor the grieving, 326 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 2: but they don't at all. In fact, you need to 327 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:03,560 Speaker 2: have all your wits about you and be extra resource 328 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:07,040 Speaker 2: in order to process something like that. But while doing 329 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 2: it in the midst of deep grief, it's cruel to me. 330 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:12,840 Speaker 2: I can't understand for the life of me why the 331 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:14,919 Speaker 2: systems are set up this way that make it that 332 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 2: much harder for people that are suffering to navigate. 333 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 1: Right right, And ideally it sounds like somebody would work 334 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:23,840 Speaker 1: with you before the end of their life so that 335 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 1: this stuff is kind of all taken care of. 336 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:27,960 Speaker 2: But does your work. 337 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 1: Also sometimes start working with the family after a loved 338 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:33,199 Speaker 1: one has passed to help with some of this. And 339 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 1: then how do you get permission, I guess, to kind 340 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 1: of speak on behalf of the family, Like, is there 341 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 1: some kind of paperwork that companies need to know that 342 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 1: you actually are authorized to speak on their famili's behalf. 343 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:47,760 Speaker 2: Yes, that is an authorized representative form. That's the form 344 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 2: that I use, and I'll have them fill out several 345 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 2: of them and just change the name of the company 346 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 2: that I'm trying to access. And sometimes it's really difficult 347 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:58,400 Speaker 2: but yes, I often work with folks after the death 348 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:02,320 Speaker 2: has occurred. In a few of them, there's been both 349 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:04,320 Speaker 2: mom and dad have died at the same time, and 350 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:08,879 Speaker 2: they've left adult children with multiple houses and lines of 351 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:12,400 Speaker 2: credit and kids from one marriage kids from another marriage 352 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:16,000 Speaker 2: trying to figure out who inherits who. In the couple 353 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:19,240 Speaker 2: of cases that I've done, that one of them went 354 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:20,920 Speaker 2: on for about a year and a half where we're 355 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:24,399 Speaker 2: trying to piece together all the accounts that were open 356 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:27,520 Speaker 2: and all the possessions that they had, et cetera. But 357 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:30,199 Speaker 2: I went to law school, so my brain has been 358 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:32,880 Speaker 2: highly trained to take in a big amount of information 359 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:35,240 Speaker 2: and whittle it down to its finest, finest points. And 360 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:37,399 Speaker 2: that cost me only one hundred and thirteen thousand dollars 361 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:41,840 Speaker 2: and three years of my life. That aside that being 362 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:44,359 Speaker 2: able to access information that way and use it that 363 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:47,840 Speaker 2: way is really supportive in a situation like that, because 364 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:50,200 Speaker 2: I can look big picture at all the things that 365 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 2: need to get done and all the things that we 366 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:54,640 Speaker 2: need and shave it down and make it much easier 367 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:56,920 Speaker 2: for the family members to digest afterward. 368 00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:01,679 Speaker 1: Right right, more from our conversation after the break, But first, 369 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:04,360 Speaker 1: a quick snip better what's coming next week on TVG. 370 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:08,200 Speaker 3: I believe a lot of the misconceptions that I dislike 371 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:11,359 Speaker 3: that I wish we could just completely eliminate are the 372 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 3: ones that revolve around how people perceive you based off 373 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:17,720 Speaker 3: which organization you're in. So if you say you're a 374 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:20,000 Speaker 3: Sigma woman, a Delta woman, a Zeta woman, or an 375 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:24,160 Speaker 3: Alpha woman, people instantly have this idea of how you think, 376 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 3: how you move, how you cook, even how you navigate 377 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:30,360 Speaker 3: life in your relationships. But the reality of it is 378 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:34,960 Speaker 3: you cannot generalize us based off our organizations. If anything, 379 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 3: that should inspire you to get to know us about 380 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 3: our values and our morals better. 381 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:51,240 Speaker 1: So you mentioned that a lot of your work now 382 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:54,359 Speaker 1: is training other death doulas. Can you talk about what 383 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 1: that training process looks like, what is required. 384 00:19:56,840 --> 00:20:00,280 Speaker 2: To become a death doulah? That's my favorite part. Well, 385 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:02,720 Speaker 2: for starters, I think it's really important for folks to 386 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 2: have a bit of comfort and emotional depth to not 387 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:09,880 Speaker 2: run from big emotions because there's a lot of them 388 00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:12,560 Speaker 2: when death and dying come around. That doesn't mean that 389 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:15,400 Speaker 2: you can't have any In fact, I think my sensitivity 390 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 2: and my capacity to access my emotions is really a 391 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:21,760 Speaker 2: strength for me in this work. But the training course 392 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:24,800 Speaker 2: that we have at Going with Grace is a fourteen week, 393 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:28,640 Speaker 2: fourteen module program either done online or in retreat in person. 394 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:31,440 Speaker 2: And I think any death do the training program worth 395 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:34,920 Speaker 2: its weight should have the individual look at the work 396 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:37,560 Speaker 2: through the lens of self. It's wildly important that each 397 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:41,760 Speaker 2: individual have a personal relationship with death so that we 398 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:45,400 Speaker 2: can avoid collapsing the space between ourselves and the other. 399 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:48,960 Speaker 2: If I'm clear about what my relationship with death looks like, 400 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:51,119 Speaker 2: then I won't put all my fears on you, and 401 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:53,960 Speaker 2: vice versa, I won't take yours on But we look 402 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:56,639 Speaker 2: at our conscious dying. We bring our attention to our 403 00:20:56,640 --> 00:21:01,320 Speaker 2: own death. We consider the hospitals and the role of 404 00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:04,120 Speaker 2: medicine in our work, even though we do non medical care. 405 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:07,280 Speaker 2: We also look at signs of dying, understand what's happening 406 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:10,080 Speaker 2: with the body. We do some natural death care, learn 407 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:12,359 Speaker 2: how to wash and prepare bodies after death. That we 408 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:17,199 Speaker 2: support family members, and we support folks in home funerals 409 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:22,120 Speaker 2: and learning about the funeral industry, legacy, ritual and meaning making, 410 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:26,080 Speaker 2: so helping folks create rituals for themselves, advance planning and 411 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 2: advanced directives, wrapping up affairs after our loved one dies, grief, breavement, burnout, 412 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:35,959 Speaker 2: and then lastly self care and business and practice building. 413 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:39,199 Speaker 2: So the course is set up to move through all 414 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 2: the modalities and end of life care and hope that 415 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:43,920 Speaker 2: the person who's shown up for the work can find 416 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 2: an area that feels really good to them to carry 417 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:46,680 Speaker 2: out there. 418 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 1: Got it. A lot of this sounds similar to what 419 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:52,880 Speaker 1: the training to become a therapist is in some ways, right, 420 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:55,960 Speaker 1: And I'm wondering, like, how do you teach and how 421 00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:58,119 Speaker 1: did you learn in your own training to kind of 422 00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 1: manage your own emotions around either your death or the 423 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:04,960 Speaker 1: sadness of working with somebody else who's dying, Like how 424 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 1: are you managing your emotions related to these kinds of 425 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:09,000 Speaker 1: things happening? 426 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:12,520 Speaker 2: So many of us that come to the work of death, 427 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:15,639 Speaker 2: and I can imagine saying for therapists are highly empathic people. 428 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:18,800 Speaker 2: Most of us came because somebody died in a way 429 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 2: that broke our hearts or experienced something so beautiful and 430 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:25,000 Speaker 2: ide like we want everybody to have it. And that 431 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 2: means that so many of us are willing to take 432 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:31,120 Speaker 2: so much on for other people, and so I've had 433 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:34,040 Speaker 2: to work really hard on shoring up my boundaries and 434 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:36,240 Speaker 2: getting clear on what belongs to me, what is mine 435 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 2: to carry, and what is not, because otherwise I'd just 436 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:41,159 Speaker 2: be walking around like with the weight of the world 437 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:44,679 Speaker 2: to death and grief on my shoulders. So recognizing what 438 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:47,400 Speaker 2: is mine as opposed to what belongs to somebody else 439 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:49,480 Speaker 2: is really really helpful. Can I just tell you a 440 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:54,200 Speaker 2: quick story about a client? Yeah, please, Okay. Years ago, 441 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:56,040 Speaker 2: I went to go see a client and her sister. 442 00:22:56,280 --> 00:23:00,399 Speaker 2: I have three biological sisters. They were young black women, 443 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:04,280 Speaker 2: and one sister was dying, and I was with them 444 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:06,720 Speaker 2: through the time that they were there in the hospital. 445 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:10,200 Speaker 2: When the doctor came in, I would listen, ask questions, 446 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 2: support them and making sure that they had the information 447 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:14,840 Speaker 2: they needed. And when the doctors were gone, we just 448 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:18,679 Speaker 2: we sat together for a while. At some point, the sister, 449 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 2: who wasn't yet dying, started crying and I was overcome 450 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 2: with emotion for her. Her sister, who was in the bed, 451 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 2: also started crying. I started weeping with them, and when 452 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:32,840 Speaker 2: I tell you, just all my sister sadness, fears of 453 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 2: loss came up in that space. I was certainly in 454 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:39,520 Speaker 2: my own emotional experience I was with them, but also 455 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:41,960 Speaker 2: in my own experience, I was collapsing the space between 456 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:45,560 Speaker 2: the tulus. I excused myself, got it together, and came 457 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 2: back into the space, and then eventually went home. And 458 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:53,960 Speaker 2: I beat myself up for like a few hours, thinking, gosh, 459 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 2: they called me to come in there and hold the container, 460 00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 2: and I collapsed directly into and I felt awful about that, 461 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:02,600 Speaker 2: just terrible. A few days later, her sister calls and 462 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 2: she thanked me. She said, it was the first time 463 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 2: everybody else who was coming into the space had been 464 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 2: so professional, or they said things like sorry for your loss, 465 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:15,720 Speaker 2: or they've spoken very technical terms, and it was the 466 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:18,840 Speaker 2: first time that a professional and I'm using air quotes, 467 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 2: expressed some humanity. And she was very grateful for that. 468 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 2: And since then, I've given myself a lot of grace 469 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:30,080 Speaker 2: for crying, because I cry everything. I cried joy, I 470 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 2: cry beauty, I cry frustration and anger and sadness and 471 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:35,840 Speaker 2: all the rest too. So I think as long as 472 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 2: I can be aware of what belongs to me and 473 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,600 Speaker 2: what belongs to somebody else and hold my boundaries tight, 474 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:42,959 Speaker 2: then it works out. 475 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, thank you so much for sharing that. I mean, 476 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:48,439 Speaker 1: you know, and again similar to our training, like we 477 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 1: understand that sometimes there are certain cases you can't take 478 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 1: on because you overidentify right with the client and so 479 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 1: then the idiot is harder to hold that boundary. I'm 480 00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:00,280 Speaker 1: wondering what it looks like for you as a trainer. 481 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:04,000 Speaker 1: So maybe sometimes have to have difficult conversations with trainees 482 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:06,640 Speaker 1: about maybe you need to take a step back from 483 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 1: the work, or like what kind of work they need 484 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:11,439 Speaker 1: to personally do to be able to hold space for 485 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:12,639 Speaker 1: a family or a person. 486 00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 2: For starters, we ask folks that have experienced to death 487 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 2: within the last six months to circle back later because 488 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:23,200 Speaker 2: sometimes folks are coming as an expression of their own 489 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 2: grief and they want to know heal it through this 490 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:29,040 Speaker 2: experience and maybe but also maybe just take a breath, 491 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:30,840 Speaker 2: take a minute, take a nap, and then come back 492 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:33,600 Speaker 2: and let's consider it. But next we do a lot 493 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:38,640 Speaker 2: of work around the shadow self and the space from 494 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:42,240 Speaker 2: which we are giving. Those are some tough conversations sometimes 495 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:44,280 Speaker 2: because we have people that want to come in and 496 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:48,480 Speaker 2: help everybody and fix everything, and there's no fixing death 497 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:51,560 Speaker 2: and grief and loss. And also what part of you 498 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:55,640 Speaker 2: feels like you are the one who can fix somebody 499 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,679 Speaker 2: else's something. What is this like save you're or healer 500 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:01,119 Speaker 2: thing that you're working with that says that it is 501 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:04,160 Speaker 2: mine to do on behalf of somebody. So making sure 502 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,240 Speaker 2: that folks are checking that as often as possible. And 503 00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:10,600 Speaker 2: there is a really dense conversation about privilege, I think, 504 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 2: and bias and so so much of our training also 505 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:16,639 Speaker 2: focuses on looking at the privilege that we carry to 506 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 2: be in this position to be able to support other people, 507 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:21,639 Speaker 2: and also the privilege that we carry just by virtue 508 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:23,639 Speaker 2: of our background in our past and our history and 509 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:27,560 Speaker 2: our intersections of identity, because those often impact I think, 510 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:29,840 Speaker 2: how we want to show up to support the other person. 511 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:32,879 Speaker 1: Mm hmm, yeah, thank you, thank you for that. So 512 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:35,600 Speaker 1: you mentioned that a part of why insurance does not 513 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 1: cover this at least as yet is that they're concerns 514 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,160 Speaker 1: around like licensing and like figuring all of that out. 515 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 1: Are there particular certifications that a death doulah has or 516 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:47,640 Speaker 1: like how would we vet if we are looking for 517 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:49,919 Speaker 1: somebody to provide this kind of care, how would we 518 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 1: find like trustworthy individuals? 519 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:55,520 Speaker 2: Well, there's no official certification body, no certifying body for 520 00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 2: death dulas. However, we're organized by the National End of 521 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:02,480 Speaker 2: Life Doulah Alliance and they have a proficiency assessment that 522 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:05,000 Speaker 2: any depth do loa can take and when you pass 523 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:06,639 Speaker 2: that test, you get a little badge that you can 524 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:09,200 Speaker 2: put on your website or to whoever asks, to show 525 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,320 Speaker 2: that you have the basic core competencies of the work. 526 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:16,200 Speaker 2: But I suggest that when folks are looking for someplace 527 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:19,400 Speaker 2: to seek training, that you find somebody that you resonate with, 528 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:22,879 Speaker 2: like somebody that feels good in your spirit, and somebody 529 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:24,520 Speaker 2: who's doing the work the way that you would like 530 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:26,359 Speaker 2: to do it, because that's likely what you're going to 531 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:28,399 Speaker 2: learn and then up to you to decide how you 532 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 2: carry it on out there. But for folks that are 533 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 2: looking for a doula, I suggest first of all that 534 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:36,760 Speaker 2: you check out the National and of Life Doula Alliance 535 00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:39,679 Speaker 2: to see if that person has a proficiency badge. You 536 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:42,119 Speaker 2: also look at the organization where they got their training 537 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 2: and who are behind that organization, because since we're not 538 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:48,880 Speaker 2: licensed or credentialed in any way, there are a lot 539 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 2: of different training programs popping up and you can get 540 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:56,199 Speaker 2: a doulah certification in two hours, or you can spend 541 00:27:56,560 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 2: three months deep in the consideration. And so consider the organization, 542 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:03,840 Speaker 2: the person's coming from, or their background in history, because 543 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:06,159 Speaker 2: they may not have gone to get any formal training, 544 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:08,440 Speaker 2: but may have been the one that went with their 545 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:12,480 Speaker 2: grandma for years when they were growing up into the 546 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:14,800 Speaker 2: community to support the people that were dying. So there's 547 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:17,440 Speaker 2: a number of different ways to access training. Got it. 548 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:19,679 Speaker 1: So you've already offered a little bit of this, But 549 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:22,760 Speaker 1: what other suggestions would you have for somebody who's interested 550 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:25,960 Speaker 1: in completing a training to become a death DOULA. 551 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:28,960 Speaker 2: Volunteer for hospice is a great place to start also because, 552 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:31,000 Speaker 2: like I was saying, so many people are coming to 553 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:34,520 Speaker 2: this because somebody in their life died, and it's a 554 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:36,960 Speaker 2: very different ballgame to be with people that you're not 555 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:41,480 Speaker 2: emotionally connected to and they're dying. And granted, I grow 556 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 2: close with every client that I get to be with, 557 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:47,640 Speaker 2: but being able to volunteer for hospice allowed me to 558 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:50,600 Speaker 2: see what it's like when I know these folks, and 559 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:53,760 Speaker 2: it was eye opening to see if I really wanted 560 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:56,720 Speaker 2: to do this work. It also gives you an insight 561 00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:58,920 Speaker 2: into how the systems work, so that if you do 562 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:01,400 Speaker 2: choose to do the work, you can understand how to 563 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:05,000 Speaker 2: navigate it a little bit better. Read books, pick up books, 564 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:09,000 Speaker 2: talk to people about death and dying, Attend some death cafes, 565 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:12,640 Speaker 2: host a few death cafes. That's an opportunity for folks 566 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:14,720 Speaker 2: to get together just to talk about the things that 567 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:17,120 Speaker 2: are on their hearts around death and dying with no agenda. 568 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 2: Necessarily start to be in the work, talk about it 569 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:21,840 Speaker 2: and see how it's landing for folks, and see how 570 00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,360 Speaker 2: it's landing for you, because you might find that being 571 00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:26,080 Speaker 2: the weirdo in the corner talking about death is not 572 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 2: your jam. And if it is welcome, we'll be here 573 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:29,320 Speaker 2: waiting for you. 574 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:32,040 Speaker 1: So I had not heard the term death cafe. So 575 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:33,880 Speaker 1: is that kind of, like you said, just kind of 576 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 1: like an open forum for people to talk about like 577 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:36,720 Speaker 1: death and dying. 578 00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:40,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, so death cafe is actually a branded term. There's 579 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:43,960 Speaker 2: an organization called death Cafe, and they have some rules 580 00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:47,080 Speaker 2: and guidelines for hosting a death cafe. But yeah, it's 581 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:50,000 Speaker 2: an open forum. There is nothing to sell, nothing to get, 582 00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 2: but rather an opportunity for people to talk through what 583 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:55,240 Speaker 2: they're experiencing and what they're curious about. 584 00:29:55,960 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 1: Got it more from our conversation after the break. I'm 585 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:13,200 Speaker 1: wondering if there have been some patterns that you have 586 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:15,720 Speaker 1: seen come up with clients when you are working with, 587 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,200 Speaker 1: specifically with the person who is towards the end of 588 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:21,560 Speaker 1: their life. Are their particular conversations or things that have 589 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:24,959 Speaker 1: been really difficult for them to deal with that you 590 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:26,720 Speaker 1: want to share with the audience. 591 00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:30,240 Speaker 2: Gosh, so many of them. Every part of who we 592 00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 2: are as humans shows up as we die, and so 593 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:34,960 Speaker 2: often the things that we struggle with while we're living 594 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:36,600 Speaker 2: are going to show up and are dying as well. 595 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:39,120 Speaker 2: And perhaps this is because of who I am and 596 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 2: where I'm at in my life right now, but I'm 597 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 2: being called to share the conversations around surrender and vulnerability 598 00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:49,479 Speaker 2: that people really really struggle with at some point in 599 00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:52,080 Speaker 2: our lives. This is, if we live long enough to 600 00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:55,200 Speaker 2: die as a result of disease rather than an accident 601 00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:59,080 Speaker 2: or sudden death of some sort, we will become disabled. 602 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:02,600 Speaker 2: We're going to need the support of another on some level. 603 00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:05,640 Speaker 2: We live in community, and we die in community as well. 604 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:07,720 Speaker 2: People don't just run off into the corner and die 605 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:10,440 Speaker 2: like some animals do, but rather it requires a whole 606 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,760 Speaker 2: team of people in this industrialized age, which means that 607 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:17,320 Speaker 2: folks need to learn how to surrender into receiving the 608 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:20,800 Speaker 2: support of another person. It's a lot of work, it's 609 00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:25,280 Speaker 2: a big obstacle to overcome if you haven't been practicing 610 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:27,959 Speaker 2: it while you're living. And so that's one thing that 611 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,440 Speaker 2: comes up a lot, and I think something that Black 612 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:34,360 Speaker 2: women really also need to pay attention to, because I 613 00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:36,120 Speaker 2: think for so long we've just put the weight of 614 00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:38,719 Speaker 2: the world on our shoulders and on our backs and 615 00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:42,920 Speaker 2: have found ways to cope and adapt to carrying it 616 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,960 Speaker 2: by ourselves. But we don't need to. And also, at 617 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,000 Speaker 2: some point we're going to have to surrender and let 618 00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:50,760 Speaker 2: somebody else support us to So that's a big thing 619 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 2: that comes up often. 620 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:54,640 Speaker 1: It feels like that conversation is coming up in so 621 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:57,800 Speaker 1: many spaces right like that in all of these conversations 622 00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:00,960 Speaker 1: around black women, Like this idea of surrender and vulnerability 623 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:03,440 Speaker 1: and like being able to ask for help feels like 624 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:05,960 Speaker 1: a theme across so many different areas. 625 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:09,960 Speaker 2: It's time. It's time. I am tired of being strong. 626 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:12,360 Speaker 2: Let me just keep it all the way real but 627 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:14,880 Speaker 2: then also noticing how hard it is sometimes for me 628 00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:18,120 Speaker 2: to just accept when somebody is showing up to help. Well, 629 00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:20,120 Speaker 2: I want to feel like I have it all together, 630 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:23,600 Speaker 2: but you know, surrendering into the help of another doesn't 631 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:26,240 Speaker 2: mean I'm not strong. And also what values are and 632 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:29,120 Speaker 2: strong I don't want to have to be. I'm okay 633 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:35,680 Speaker 2: with being tender and a delicate flower, which I actually am. 634 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:39,840 Speaker 1: So for the clients that you work with who are 635 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:42,360 Speaker 1: not necessarily aware that they are at the end of 636 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:45,400 Speaker 1: their life, so they're doing more kind of preventive kinds 637 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:48,440 Speaker 1: of things getting their affairs together, can you talk about 638 00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:51,160 Speaker 1: some of the things that you talk with them about 639 00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:53,920 Speaker 1: to kind of get them started on this path of 640 00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:56,200 Speaker 1: dealing with the end of their life, because I don't think, 641 00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:57,640 Speaker 1: you know, like most of us are not in the 642 00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:00,719 Speaker 1: grocery store talking about death like you're saying, so, how 643 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:02,840 Speaker 1: do you even enter into that conversation. 644 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:05,960 Speaker 2: Well, most of these people called me and so they're 645 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:08,400 Speaker 2: ready for it in some capacity, But a lot of 646 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:10,800 Speaker 2: them are coming because of an event in their lives. 647 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:13,440 Speaker 2: I can think of a client not that long ago 648 00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:17,120 Speaker 2: who had a pulmonary embolism that ended her in the 649 00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:20,320 Speaker 2: hospital for over three weeks, and once she came out 650 00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:22,480 Speaker 2: of the hospital, she was like, listen, I'm healthy again, 651 00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:25,800 Speaker 2: but let's get this together. I also have a lot 652 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:30,560 Speaker 2: of clients that are raising children that have elderly parents 653 00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:34,200 Speaker 2: or watching their parents die and don't want that experience 654 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:36,360 Speaker 2: for themselves. They don't want to recreate it for their kids, 655 00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:38,040 Speaker 2: and so they're like, let me get as much together 656 00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:40,800 Speaker 2: as I can right now. And so often people are 657 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:44,000 Speaker 2: starting to think about it, and then they call and say, hey, 658 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:46,160 Speaker 2: this is just an idea. What do you think? And 659 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:50,400 Speaker 2: sometimes a conversation is, well, I don't think I'm dying 660 00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:52,960 Speaker 2: right now, so why should I plan? And so that 661 00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:55,960 Speaker 2: I always say, well, how soon it's too soon to 662 00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:57,959 Speaker 2: start preparing for something you know one day is going 663 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:01,400 Speaker 2: to happen. I'm a last minute for sure. I know 664 00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:03,320 Speaker 2: I'm going on a trip about the flight, but I 665 00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:06,920 Speaker 2: wait until the last minute before I go. I'm not 666 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:09,400 Speaker 2: going to be that way with my dying. I'm gonna 667 00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:11,759 Speaker 2: spend some time. I've been spending the rest of my 668 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:14,520 Speaker 2: life thinking about it and preparing myself in some capacity. 669 00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:17,040 Speaker 2: And so let's like we can warm up to the 670 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:18,560 Speaker 2: question and to the idea. 671 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:22,920 Speaker 1: Got it, got it, And I'm wondering, what is the transition? 672 00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:26,000 Speaker 1: Is the best word I can think of that maybe accurate. 673 00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:29,040 Speaker 1: Like you are somebody who's like kind of constantly working 674 00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:32,319 Speaker 1: with people who are their lives are ending, and so 675 00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:34,719 Speaker 1: you become very close with the family, it sounds like, 676 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:36,799 Speaker 1: and so it's one of the only professions I can 677 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:39,640 Speaker 1: think of where you're constantly having to kind of deal 678 00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:43,480 Speaker 1: with these relationships ending. What does the aftercare process look 679 00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:46,799 Speaker 1: like for yourself when continuing to support yourself and doing 680 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:47,400 Speaker 1: this work. 681 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:52,160 Speaker 2: It's not so glamorous immediately afterward. It looks like potato chips. 682 00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:55,239 Speaker 2: Looks like kettle potato chips, mostly the salt and vinegar ones. 683 00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:58,280 Speaker 2: Something about the fat and the crunch and the salt, 684 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:01,319 Speaker 2: and like the bite in my jaw reminds me. It 685 00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:03,080 Speaker 2: grounds me back in my body. I think it's an 686 00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:05,560 Speaker 2: embodiment practice that I'm not conscious of, but it brings 687 00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:08,279 Speaker 2: me right back into the body, that allows me to 688 00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:11,440 Speaker 2: show up those boundaries again and remember that this is 689 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:13,840 Speaker 2: mine and all that is not all the rest I 690 00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:17,640 Speaker 2: don't have to carry anymore. I often take baths also 691 00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:20,359 Speaker 2: when I get back from seeing clients sitting in the 692 00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:23,279 Speaker 2: water and sitting there and watching as it all goes 693 00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:26,160 Speaker 2: back down the drain for it to wash away what 694 00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:30,400 Speaker 2: I'm carrying that isn't mine. As we're talking before about 695 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:34,160 Speaker 2: shadow work and being clear about what place I'm giving from, 696 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:37,400 Speaker 2: how I showed up in that space giving myself and 697 00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:40,799 Speaker 2: my clients a lot of grace. But longer term, I 698 00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:43,280 Speaker 2: stay in touch with some of my clients, the family 699 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:47,280 Speaker 2: members after their death and learning how to start shifting 700 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:50,640 Speaker 2: the dynamic of the relationship from one where I was 701 00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:54,000 Speaker 2: available all the time and in a really deep emotional 702 00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:57,560 Speaker 2: experience for them to one that allows them to be 703 00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:01,480 Speaker 2: on their process with some support in the background. I 704 00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:05,160 Speaker 2: also cry a lot. I grieve a lot. I grieve 705 00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:07,879 Speaker 2: for my clients. I grieve with my clients. I grieve 706 00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:11,440 Speaker 2: for myself because as you were, I think alluding to 707 00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:14,400 Speaker 2: I've grown in relationship with these people and then they die, 708 00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:17,600 Speaker 2: and my heartbreaks every time I think I've just gotten 709 00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:20,680 Speaker 2: better attending to it through my tears and my crunch 710 00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:21,719 Speaker 2: of potato chips. 711 00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:26,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you for sharing it. So you already shared 712 00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:28,360 Speaker 1: that a lot of people kind of are brought to 713 00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:30,719 Speaker 1: this work because there is a death, experience of some 714 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:33,080 Speaker 1: experience in their life, and then they think, Oh, I 715 00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:35,560 Speaker 1: want to do this for work. I'm curious to know 716 00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:38,719 Speaker 1: what has this work taught you about living and what 717 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:41,800 Speaker 1: do you feel like clients have kind of shared about 718 00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:44,160 Speaker 1: life as they are nearing the end of their lives. 719 00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:49,160 Speaker 2: It's the most basic thing. But this work has just 720 00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:53,239 Speaker 2: taught me again and again about the power of our 721 00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:56,960 Speaker 2: time and our existence and the miracle is to be living. 722 00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:01,879 Speaker 2: Being present in a room where life has just left 723 00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:05,719 Speaker 2: a body is profound. Not only does it humble me 724 00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:10,120 Speaker 2: to the incredible mystery of life, but it also reminds 725 00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:12,080 Speaker 2: me that I still have it for now. My body 726 00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:15,880 Speaker 2: is still animated by that intangible thing that allows me 727 00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:19,920 Speaker 2: to make eye contact and to eat cake, and to 728 00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:22,520 Speaker 2: dance in the rain, and to sit and stare at 729 00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:26,480 Speaker 2: a bird for a while, to speak my truth, to 730 00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:28,440 Speaker 2: do what I want when I want to the extent 731 00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:31,600 Speaker 2: that I can within the legal rules, and all that 732 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:36,920 Speaker 2: is an invitation into life. So being around dying repeatedly 733 00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:41,520 Speaker 2: is an invitation into life. And I'm grateful, very grateful. 734 00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:44,120 Speaker 1: So you've shared this a little bit, but I definitely 735 00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:47,600 Speaker 1: want to talk more. You're preparing to release your first book, 736 00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:50,719 Speaker 1: briefly Perfect Human. So can you tell us a little 737 00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:53,200 Speaker 1: bit about the book and how you want readers to 738 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:55,640 Speaker 1: engage with it and what you want us to take 739 00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:56,439 Speaker 1: away from it? 740 00:37:57,120 --> 00:38:03,040 Speaker 2: Oh? My yes, this book is was really an opportunity 741 00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:07,040 Speaker 2: for me to lay out my thoughts and ideas around 742 00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:10,279 Speaker 2: how we die. It's a memoir, so it tracks my 743 00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:13,120 Speaker 2: journey into death care from the practice of law and 744 00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:16,840 Speaker 2: my life thus far, looking back and seeing how death 745 00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:19,080 Speaker 2: had been interacting with my life all the way up 746 00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:22,719 Speaker 2: in and through arriving at death care. And it also 747 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:26,680 Speaker 2: highlights a decent amount of my client stories. So readers, 748 00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:29,680 Speaker 2: I think, have an opportunity to look at their lives 749 00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:32,440 Speaker 2: through the perspective of their own death through mine as 750 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:34,920 Speaker 2: an example, and also learn a little bit about the 751 00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:38,239 Speaker 2: practice and the work itself, and also hopefully chuckle a 752 00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:40,880 Speaker 2: little bit. I think I'm hilarious. I was making myself 753 00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:43,239 Speaker 2: laugh as I was writing the book, and I think 754 00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:46,480 Speaker 2: that some of that carried through. My hope is as 755 00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:49,000 Speaker 2: I was saying before, I hope that this book serves 756 00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:51,799 Speaker 2: as an invitation into the lives of the people that 757 00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:54,840 Speaker 2: are reading it, as a reminder that this life is 758 00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:59,520 Speaker 2: fleeting and precious, and that being here for all it 759 00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:04,400 Speaker 2: can be a tremendous gift, not to discount the absolute 760 00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:06,680 Speaker 2: privilege it is to be able to think about our 761 00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:10,040 Speaker 2: mortality consistently and just even to take a time to 762 00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:13,640 Speaker 2: read a book, but to be with the fact that 763 00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:15,520 Speaker 2: one day I'll die, and to use it in a 764 00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:18,480 Speaker 2: way that serves my life. Yeah, that's a gift. 765 00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:21,880 Speaker 1: Beautiful, beautiful, Thank you so much. I think people will 766 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:25,040 Speaker 1: enjoy this read. So tell us where we can stay 767 00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:27,839 Speaker 1: connected with you, Alula. What is your website and your 768 00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:30,560 Speaker 1: social media channels and where can we find a copy. 769 00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:33,279 Speaker 2: Of the book? Sure, you can find us anywhere on 770 00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:37,560 Speaker 2: the internet at goingwigrace dot com or on Instagram also 771 00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:40,719 Speaker 2: going with Grace, but with some underscores. Otherwise you'll end 772 00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:43,160 Speaker 2: up at like a yellow labrador or dog someplace in 773 00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:46,560 Speaker 2: Kentucky and that's not me. You can find the book 774 00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:51,200 Speaker 2: any major retailer for books. But also please strongly consider 775 00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:56,160 Speaker 2: supporting your independent bookstores. They need our support. Place Places, Place, place, Please. 776 00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:58,799 Speaker 2: You can find them at bookshop dot org. If you're 777 00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:02,600 Speaker 2: not sure, we're an independent book stories near you. And yeah, 778 00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:05,680 Speaker 2: I'm out in the world, so hopefully you'll see me someplace. 779 00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:09,840 Speaker 2: I'll be in Seattle and LA and New York in 780 00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:16,160 Speaker 2: the coming weeks, and workshops and trainings and webinars and 781 00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:18,080 Speaker 2: the whole night perfect. 782 00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:19,759 Speaker 1: We will short to include all of that in our 783 00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:22,000 Speaker 1: show notes. Thank you so much for spending some time 784 00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:23,759 Speaker 1: with us today. I really appreciate it. 785 00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:25,439 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me, Doctor Joy. 786 00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:31,759 Speaker 1: Absolutely, I'm so glad Ailoua was able to join us 787 00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:34,680 Speaker 1: to share her expertise for this episode. To learn more 788 00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:37,000 Speaker 1: about her and her work, and to grab a copy 789 00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:39,880 Speaker 1: of her memoir, visit the show notes at Therapy for 790 00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:43,520 Speaker 1: Blackgirls dot Com slash Session three, p. Fifty five and 791 00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:45,800 Speaker 1: don't forget to text two of your girls right now 792 00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:48,799 Speaker 1: and tell them to check out the episode. If you're 793 00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:51,760 Speaker 1: looking for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist 794 00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:55,600 Speaker 1: directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. And 795 00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:57,880 Speaker 1: if you want to continue digging into this topic or 796 00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:00,759 Speaker 1: just be in community with other sisters, come on over 797 00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:03,360 Speaker 1: and join us in the Sister Circle. It's our cozy 798 00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:06,360 Speaker 1: corner of the Internet designed just for black women. You 799 00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:10,440 Speaker 1: can join us at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. 800 00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:14,040 Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Frieda Lucas, Elise Ellis and 801 00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:19,000 Speaker 1: Zaria Taylor. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all 802 00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:21,520 Speaker 1: so much for joining me again this week. I look 803 00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:24,840 Speaker 1: forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon. 804 00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:30,919 Speaker 2: Take good care, what's