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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greace, a devil walking amongst us.

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Speaker 1: And of course the devil is so genius he can

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Speaker 1: look just like us. He can look just like that

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Speaker 1: neighbor down the street, the one with the wife and

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Speaker 1: the two kids, and the architectural firm in Manhattan. That

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Speaker 1: guy I am talking about none other than the alleged

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Speaker 1: Long Island serial killer Rex Huerman, very well respected architect,

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Speaker 1: now behind bars in the deaths of at least three

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Speaker 1: and I believe many more women connected in time and location,

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Speaker 1: many of them sex workers, all of them daughters, mothers, sisters, girlfriends.

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Speaker 1: We've waited a long time for this day to come,

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Speaker 1: for the Long Island serial killer to be unmasked for

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Speaker 1: the devil that he is. I mean, I see, Grace.

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Speaker 1: This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us

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Speaker 1: here at Fox Nation and serious exem one to eleven

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Speaker 1: take a listen to this.

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Speaker 2: It is one of the most baffling serial murder cases

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Speaker 2: in modern American history. Centered on this lonely stretch of

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Speaker 2: sand on the south shore of Long Island, New York.

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Speaker 1: Gill Go be just.

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Speaker 2: Small community with a big mystery on its hands. The

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Speaker 2: bodies of fifteen brutally murdered young women, and there's it

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Speaker 2: seems to be a pattern, many of them under five

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Speaker 2: feet tall and less than one hundred pounds, all dumped

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Speaker 2: in the surrounding dunes over a period of twenty years.

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Speaker 3: There's been some new developments in the Gilgo investigation. Last night,

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Speaker 3: a little bit around eight thirty pm, in the vicinity

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Speaker 3: of thirty fifth and fifth Avenue in the city, members

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Speaker 3: assigned to the Gilgo Beach Task Force did place one

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Speaker 3: individual under arrest.

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Speaker 4: After years of searching and fear, years of true crime

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Speaker 4: hobbyists and their theories prags, did you do it? It

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Speaker 4: turned out the suspected Gilgo Beach killer was hiding in

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Speaker 4: plain sight the whole time. Fifty nine year old Rex Huerman,

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Speaker 4: a suburban husband, father of two and cop say.

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Speaker 5: A demon that walks among us, a predator that ruined families,

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Speaker 5: and if not for the members of this task force,

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Speaker 5: he would still be on the streets today, you darn Wright.

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Speaker 1: If not for this newly formed task force instituted by

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Speaker 1: the new elected district Attorney, this guy would still be

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Speaker 1: walking free. And I guarantee you would still be killing.

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Speaker 1: And I've got facts to support that. Theory. You were

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Speaker 1: just hearing our friends at Crime Watch, DLAWABC seven and

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Speaker 1: the Suffolk County Police Commissioner Rodney Harrison with me an

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Speaker 1: all star panel. But first I want to go to

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Speaker 1: a special guest joining us, Anthony M. Carter. This is

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Speaker 1: the Deputy Police Commissioner in Suffolk County. Deputy Commissioner, Man,

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Speaker 1: it's been a long time coming. I want to hear

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Speaker 1: your reaction to the arrest of a prominent architect, a father, husband.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of hard to believe, but you guys have

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Speaker 1: known for some time and keeping it on the down

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Speaker 1: low what was happening, because you had intel. This guy

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Speaker 1: was watching the police's.

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Speaker 6: Every Yeah, it has. It's been for over a year now,

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Speaker 6: something that we've been working on, working on tirelessly, and

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Speaker 6: it really you know, it all began when Commissioner Harrison

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Speaker 6: took office here at the Saffa County Police Department and

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Speaker 6: one of his top priorities was the gilgle Beach investigation.

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Speaker 6: And he had a vision, as you know, the former

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Speaker 6: Chief of Detectives of the NYPD, former Chief Department, and

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Speaker 6: the experience that he had. One of the things he

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Speaker 6: knew is that we needed to get a fresh look

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Speaker 6: at case, and we needed to get our law enforcement

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Speaker 6: partners involved, and Commissioner Harrison created this task force, called

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Speaker 6: it the Gigle Beach Task Force, and it comprised of

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Speaker 6: investigators from the State Police, the District Attorney's office, the

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Speaker 6: Sheriff's department.

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Speaker 1: You know, you cut out on me right there for

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Speaker 1: a second, but I think you said the FBI. And

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Speaker 1: in the past, before the Knee regime, there was a

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Speaker 1: lot of resistance to bring in the FBI. But when

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Speaker 1: you've got women dyeing and going missing and now all

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Speaker 1: these bodies turning up unsolved, Hey, you know what, I'm

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Speaker 1: happy for all the help I can get every single day.

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Speaker 1: So I just congratulate you and your Commissioner Harrison all

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Speaker 1: this arrest and it was it was a joint effort.

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Speaker 1: And I like that about you and your boss. You

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Speaker 1: don't try to hog the limelight or say it's all

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Speaker 1: about you. You really always give the credit to everyone involved.

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Speaker 1: And you know, standing by right now, Kristin Thorn is

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Speaker 1: with me, very well known investigative reporter to ABC Channel

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Speaker 1: seven Eyewitness News, host of Hulu's new crime show Missing Kristin.

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Speaker 1: It's great to have you and you you have stood

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Speaker 1: by you and I both have plotted around there at

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Speaker 1: the beach looking for clues, trying to find answers. Can

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Speaker 1: you believe we've finally gotten arrest? And I gotta tell you,

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Speaker 1: Kristin just in time, because this pos technical legal term

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Speaker 1: was just caught on camera at a cell phone store

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Speaker 1: paying cash, from what I can tell, for more burner

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Speaker 1: phone minutes. That's his MO. You want to tell me

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Speaker 1: this guy's out of business? H E double Lno, he's

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Speaker 1: still at it, Kristin.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, Nancy, and I think that's what's really scary about

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Speaker 7: this entire situation and why law enforcement decided it was time. Look,

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Speaker 7: they wanted to have Maureen Brainerd Barnes included in this indictment,

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Speaker 7: and she is absolutely mentioned in this indictment.

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Speaker 1: Woll woa, whoa, whoa, whoa, Well, hold on, lady, back

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Speaker 1: it up. You're going warped four before we can get there.

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Speaker 1: There's so many bodies. But you often hear of the

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Speaker 1: GILG four, correct me if I'm on, but you are correct.

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Speaker 1: The GILG four were all found in burlap bags, similarly

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Speaker 1: bound naked, having been sex assaulted, which really links them together.

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Speaker 1: Right now, this architect, this dad, this husband is charged

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Speaker 1: with six counts, three murders, three felony murder charges, three

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Speaker 1: second degree murder charges, three victims. But it's just a

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Speaker 1: matter of days, I believe, before he's charged with the fourth.

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Speaker 1: Then we got to deal with all the other dead bodies.

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Speaker 1: But you refer to a woman, Brainerd Barnes, Marine, Brainerd Barnes,

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Speaker 1: aged twenty five. He's the prime suspect and she's number

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Speaker 1: four in the gil go four. Did I make that clear?

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Speaker 8: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Okay, go ahead, yes, And so.

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Speaker 7: The law enforcement knew that they had to get him

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Speaker 7: now because they were worried about what he may do next.

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Speaker 7: What he was looking on his phone.

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Speaker 1: I mean, creepy dude. Creepy dude. You know, my daughter

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Speaker 1: and my son, they'll see they're just fifteen. They'll see

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Speaker 1: somebody and go, Okay, that's a creepy dude right there.

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Speaker 1: Tell us Kristen about this creepy dude going up to

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Speaker 1: a woman in a park setting in the last couple

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Speaker 1: of months and completely scheving her out.

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Speaker 7: He was walking around and she was in the woods.

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Speaker 7: Is a nice wooded park in massapeoplea park, and she

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Speaker 7: was walking around and he, as she says, came up

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Speaker 7: behind him and was asking about her boyfriend. And you know,

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Speaker 7: he's a very big man.

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Speaker 1: Six ' four. Hey, what do you put him at?

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Speaker 1: Anthony Carter? Guys, I'm speaking to Anthony Carter, but he

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Speaker 1: is the deputy police Commissioner. I mean, I'm acting like

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Speaker 1: I'm sitting here having a cup of coffee with this guy.

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Speaker 1: He's been on this from the get go, since he

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Speaker 1: came in and they formed a new task force. How

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Speaker 1: much does this guy way? What you put him at?

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Speaker 1: Two forty?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean he's a very large individual. I would

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Speaker 6: definitely say yeah, right around there, around a two hundred

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Speaker 6: and forty pounds mark. Very just very just an oversized,

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Speaker 6: you know, very large man. And you know yeah, I

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Speaker 6: mean I know everybody's seen that YouTube video, you know,

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Speaker 6: and where he's towering over the person that's conducting the

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Speaker 6: interview with him.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, nothing like that, Doctor Bethany Marshall, to make your

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Speaker 1: first move on a lady to try to get a

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Speaker 1: date is to sneak up behind or at a park

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Speaker 1: and start asking about her boyfriend. It reminds me of

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Speaker 1: Brian Coburger, right because he, you know, the guy going

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Speaker 1: on trial for the sleigh of four beautiful Idaho University

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Speaker 1: students time stories with Nancy Grace, doctor Bethany Marshall with

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Speaker 1: me and now it's like alalyst out of Beverly Hills

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Speaker 1: at to Messymarshall dot com. Because he would go coburger,

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Speaker 1: will go up to women at bars and go hey,

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Speaker 1: what's your home address and phone number? Of course the

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Speaker 1: women would run as if they had seen a monster

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Speaker 1: rearing it suddenly head like this guy. You go up

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Speaker 1: to a woman in a park, sneak up behind her

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Speaker 1: and go, hey, who's your boyfriend? I would run, Nanthy.

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Speaker 9: What it tells me is that he was constantly trolling

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Speaker 9: for victims, and as a part of trolling for victims,

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Speaker 9: he had this whole list of questions. I mean, number

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Speaker 9: one would be, hey, do you have a boyfriend? Who's

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Speaker 9: your boyfriend? The reason for that is who is he

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Speaker 9: going to have to separate the woman from. Does she

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Speaker 9: have family? Does she have people who's interested in her?

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Speaker 9: And if so, it's going to make it more difficult

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Speaker 9: to kidnap sex assault her. Secondly, he's looking for women

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Speaker 9: who are quite short or petite, women he can easily

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Speaker 9: handle easily, you know, kidnap and transport for from one

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Speaker 9: area to another. And then he actually probably has many

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Speaker 9: other aspects of his victim profile that are going to

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Speaker 9: come out during the course of this investigation, especially as

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Speaker 9: it pertains to his online searches on maybe under h kids.

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Speaker 9: Twinks was one of the things I heard, you know.

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Speaker 1: Young hey, well, what was the last thing you said?

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Speaker 6: Twinks?

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Speaker 1: You need to tell everybody what that means, Okay.

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Speaker 9: A twink is a young man who looks very feminine,

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Speaker 9: usually underweight, very small, and the old fashioned word for

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Speaker 9: them is twinks. So that was one of his victim

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Speaker 9: profiles that he was looking for with these kinds of

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Speaker 9: young men.

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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, this includes you, Kristin Thorn, Toby Wilson, Todd Shipley,

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Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan, Deputy Commissioner Carter, doctor Bethany John Ray,

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Speaker 1: the lawyer for the family of Shannon Gilbert. She may

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Speaker 1: not be connected to Hureman, we don't know that yet,

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Speaker 1: but it's because of her that all of these bodies

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Speaker 1: were found. She's dead. She was killed there on Long Island,

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Speaker 1: and I believe it hadn't been for her body being discovered,

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Speaker 1: we may never have found the other bodies that said,

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Speaker 1: everybody jump in whenever you have a thought. But you

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Speaker 1: hear doctor Bethany Marshall correctly describing the fact of these

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Speaker 1: Google searches we have just learned about. The police, of course,

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Speaker 1: knew about it with me. Todd Shipley, cybercrime expert, author

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Speaker 1: of investigating Internet crimes. You can find them at darkintail

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Speaker 1: dot info. Todd, just follow up, please with what doctor

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Speaker 1: Bethany just said about this guy's perverted Google searches. I'm

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Speaker 1: sure you've seen them, right, sure.

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Speaker 10: I think what's important is the fact that that was

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Speaker 10: available once they identified the suspect and they were able

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Speaker 10: to go to Google and subpoena and because they did

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Speaker 10: over three hundreds of poenas early on, so there's a

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Speaker 10: lot of information that we still don't know about yet.

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Speaker 10: But once they started looking at this guy, was pretty

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Speaker 10: evident that he was the one, because the searches were

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Speaker 10: evident looking for information about the case. He was trying

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Speaker 10: to find out what the law enforcement agencies knew about

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Speaker 10: him and what they were divulging online and how much

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Speaker 10: information was there, and he was doing you know, his

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Speaker 10: dating and all the other things that go along with

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Speaker 10: what was happening. So it was pretty apparent, you know,

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Speaker 10: once they started looking at his searches, that this was

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Speaker 10: a person of interest work for them. And it's pretty

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Speaker 10: telling that there's that much information about us when we

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Speaker 10: start thinking about you know, evidence online and what we do.

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Speaker 1: You know what, that's perfectly put But if I were

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Speaker 1: putting this to a jury, I'd say something more like

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Speaker 1: blonde girl crying being raped, black slave girl being raped,

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Speaker 1: America's five most tatorial old cases. Why hasn't Long Island

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Speaker 1: a killer being caught? Why could law enforcement not trace

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Speaker 1: calls made by Long Island serial killer? I mean, who

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Speaker 1: would know to ask that particular question except for the

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Speaker 1: Long Island serial killer exactly. I mean when I would

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Speaker 1: think about the Long Island serial killer, I would have

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Speaker 1: so many thoughts, so many questions. But I didn't know

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Speaker 1: at the time because people like Deputy Commissioner Anthony Carter

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Speaker 1: kept it so secret as he should have. I didn't

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Speaker 1: know about the use of burner phones. Well somebody did.

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Speaker 1: This guy was looking up why can't they trace his

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Speaker 1: burner phones?

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Speaker 10: No? I mean that's specifically what they ended up doing.

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Speaker 10: Is if you look at how they started pieces together,

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Speaker 10: which was brilliant by the agents that were involved and officers.

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Speaker 10: They started to find those pieces and they started to

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Speaker 10: relate to proving the negative who was around those burner

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Speaker 10: phones when they had the geolocations that they had from

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Speaker 10: ten years ago. And so the fact they went back

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Speaker 10: and looked at all that evidence and started to prove

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Speaker 10: that the target was close by, you know, those same

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Speaker 10: phone calls, was a brilliant move to prove that he

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Speaker 10: did it. And then they were able to go back

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Speaker 10: after you know, his phones himself and starting to look

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Speaker 10: at what's there. Now what's going to be interesting too

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Speaker 10: is the digital evidents that they find in the search

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Speaker 10: of his house. I can't wait to see what they

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Speaker 10: found in his computer because that's going to be telling too.

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Speaker 1: Other searches. And I want to go to John Ray,

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Speaker 1: the family lawyer for victim Shannon Gilbert. I know that

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Speaker 1: Shannon's family has been tortured, especially when they see this

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Speaker 1: guy's searches which say things like blonde haired girl, young,

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Speaker 1: depressed teen girl, oiled bodies, nude slave girls. I had

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Speaker 1: to leave out some of this because even I wouldn't

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Speaker 1: say it blank shot and crying porn girl, hogtiede torture porn,

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Speaker 1: skinny red head tied up porn, short, fat girl tied

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Speaker 1: up porn, tied up and raped porn as doctor Bethany

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Speaker 1: poor in it out, Asian twink tied up porn, tied slave,

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Speaker 1: force fed. I'm not gonna finish that one. I mean,

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Speaker 1: teen girl begging for rape, porn, pretty girl with bruised

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Speaker 1: face porn. My mouth feels filthy. I need to go

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Speaker 1: wash it out with soap. This was what is on

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Speaker 1: his Google searches. John Ray. Now Shannon's family has to

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Speaker 1: read this and only imagine what Shannon may have or

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Speaker 1: the other victims put up with, what they endured, what

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Speaker 1: they lived through before they died. I want to vomit.

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Speaker 11: I can plame everybody, does I think this monster, this

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Speaker 11: giant monster who I characterize as Taratosaurus Rex, his image

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Speaker 11: is now frozen in the minds of the Gilbert family.

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Speaker 11: And I also represent Jessica Taylor's family and the same

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Speaker 11: they have the same reaction.

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Speaker 1: Twenty year old Jessica Taylor also found there along the beach.

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Speaker 11: Go ahead, yeah, and these families haven't this image now

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Speaker 11: that's frozen in their mind, that he is a killer.

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Speaker 11: There's no way to be sure that he had anything

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Speaker 11: to do with Shannon Gilbert at this point. We're looking

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Speaker 11: hard at that but as we speak, but you know,

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Speaker 11: just the image itself of what happened, and when you

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Speaker 11: take what we do know of what happened to Shannon

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Speaker 11: that the night, that early morning that she disappeared, we

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Speaker 11: know that she was under a threat from somebody like him,

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Speaker 11: either he himself or somebody like him, and there is

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Speaker 11: probably more than one of them. But we're still very

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Speaker 11: optimistic now and delighted that Ray here needed a district

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Speaker 11: attorney and Rodney Harrison, the police commissioner, finally may put

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Speaker 11: together the agencies that weren't working together so that this

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Speaker 11: can be done. So we're looking forward. We think that

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Speaker 11: is a really good chance that Taranosaurus Rex killed the

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Speaker 11: others as well, because he was a hunter and hunters.

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Speaker 11: He was a proficient hunter. They have tools and they

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Speaker 11: take apart their animals, so he's certainly capable of having

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Speaker 11: dismembered these others that are there.

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Speaker 1: So, of course, and you know another issue. Kristin Thorn

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Speaker 1: joining me, investigative reporter to the ABC star of hulu's

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Speaker 1: true crime show Missing Kristin. Just because he ran out

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Speaker 1: of burrow at bags, Okay, that does not mean he's

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Speaker 1: not connected to all the other bodies. And I'm telling you, Kristin,

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Speaker 1: there are more victims. There are more victims.

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Speaker 7: You know, Nancy. I think what concerns me and what

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Speaker 7: has kept me up at night the last few days

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Speaker 7: since this happened, is not in a necessarily of course,

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Speaker 7: the remains that are still left to the six other

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Speaker 7: remains there along Ocean Parkway on Long Island, But it's

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Speaker 7: the women we haven't heard about yet, right, So, in

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Speaker 7: some of the cases I've covered in my show, I

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Speaker 7: had some concerns, and I do hope that they will

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Speaker 7: be using some of the DNA evidence that they have

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Speaker 7: to look at some of these other women who have

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Speaker 7: disappeared in the Tri State area, who I believe in

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Speaker 7: their family believes were victims of violence, one in particular,

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Speaker 7: who was worked in the same line of work as

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Speaker 7: the other women. And so that's what concerns me. Who

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Speaker 7: is out there the women or anybody else, because we

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Speaker 7: haven't yet identified his profile, right we know about the

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Speaker 7: Gilg War, but we don't know who else he may

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Speaker 7: have been interested in killing or where his interest quote

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Speaker 7: unquote lie, Can I make.

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Speaker 6: A comment about that?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Japan. But I need to go to Anthony Carter

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Speaker 1: about what they're doing right now, Bethany, hold on just

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Speaker 1: a moment, Commissioner Carter, I pray to God in Heaven

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Speaker 1: that this new task force, and I'm sure you're not

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Speaker 1: going to tell me, is comparing his DNA to every

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Speaker 1: other DNA that's been found in let's just say the

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Speaker 1: Tri State area, because once these bodies were discovered, you know,

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Speaker 1: he found another dumping ground, all right, comparing his DNA

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Speaker 1: looking at who else He's been calling on his many, many,

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Speaker 1: many burner phones and figuring out where he was seen

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Speaker 1: in that Chevy avalanche, which I want to ask you,

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Speaker 1: Wuty Commissioner. I happen to know that the avalanche discontinued

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Speaker 1: manufacture in twenty thirteen. Yet here's an avalanche part outside

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Speaker 1: his place, I believe a relative's place. An avalanche was

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Speaker 1: seen at one of the victims' homes. Let me think

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Speaker 1: I believe it was Amber Costello. Long story short. I

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Speaker 1: can go on and on and on about Wow, here's

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Speaker 1: the avalanche part outside at his home, a few miles

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Speaker 1: away from where the bodies are found and a witness

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Speaker 1: place is an avalanche at one of the victims' homes.

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Speaker 1: How come it took so long? But that is something

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Speaker 1: for me to chew apart on another day. Just I

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Speaker 1: want to know that his DNA is being compared to

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Speaker 1: other DNA, especially in that Tri state area.

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Speaker 6: No, and that's a great that's a great question. And

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Speaker 6: the one thing that maybe some some out there may

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Speaker 6: think that you know, the arrest was made. We arrested

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Speaker 6: this subject that the task force has you know, concluded

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Speaker 6: their investigation and is going to go ahead and just

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Speaker 6: look at Rex. The the investigation, the task Force is

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Speaker 6: going to remain intact and they are going to continue

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Speaker 6: gathering evidence in both with Rex and the Go Go

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Speaker 6: Beach investigation is far from overt And Okay.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to take that as a yes. Even though

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Speaker 1: you're not saying yes, I'm taking it as a yes.

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Speaker 6: You say to examine every piece of evidence.

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Speaker 1: That's right, though, absolutely, speaking of every piece of evidence,

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Speaker 1: let's take a look at it. We can talk about

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Speaker 1: them that all the women work, many of them contacted

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Speaker 1: on Craigslist. They were sex workers. They were found dead

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Speaker 1: in the same way. Physical similarities all these four putt

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Speaker 1: in Burlett bags disposed of on a lonely stretch of

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Speaker 1: beach about twenty plus minutes away from his home at

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Speaker 1: Massapeaker Park. But what about the evidence the heart evidents

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Speaker 1: take a listen to our cut three g are friends

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Speaker 1: at ABC seven.

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Speaker 4: Prosecutors say the smoking gun was a pizza crust. Police

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Speaker 4: dug through Heureerman's trash, matching DNA from a partially eaten

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Speaker 4: slice to previously unidentified hairs found on three of the

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Speaker 4: Gilgo victims. Today they booked Heureman on murder chargers, accused

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Speaker 4: in the deaths of Melissa Barthelemy, Megan Waterman, and Lynn Costello.

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Speaker 4: And he's a prime suspect in the death of a

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Speaker 4: fourth marine, Brainerd Barnes.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's talk about the hard DNA evidence evidence from

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Speaker 1: a hair. One of those hairs was found at the

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Speaker 1: bottom of one of the Burlat bags that one of

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Speaker 1: the victims were discarded in. Also, apparently, and correct me

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Speaker 1: if I'm wrong, jump on. At kirsten Thorn, three victims

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Speaker 1: had the defendant's wife's hair on them, obviously a transfer

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Speaker 1: from her to him and from him onto the victim.

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Speaker 1: So that's at least four pieces of DNA that we

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Speaker 1: know of, then one of the victims to tie it

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Speaker 1: up with a leather belt. Hopefully maybe DNA touch DNA

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Speaker 1: was taken off of that. Am I missing any DNA? Kristen, No,

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Speaker 1: that sounds okay.

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Speaker 7: That is absolutely correct. But I would love to talk

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Speaker 7: about the.

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Speaker 1: Hair, sure, because I've got a professor of forensics with

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Speaker 1: me and a for forensic consultant specializing in DNA waiting

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Speaker 1: to jump on this because this this is going to

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Speaker 1: get him in addition to all of the circumstantial evidence.

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Speaker 1: Tell me, Kristen, here's.

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Speaker 7: Here's my question, and I would love to hear from you, Nancy,

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Speaker 7: and from your experts. To me, finding the wife's hair

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Speaker 7: on one victim would have been interesting to find it

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Speaker 7: on three. I'm trying to actually, you know, when you

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Speaker 7: try to think.

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Speaker 12: How does this happen? How does the wife's hair end

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Speaker 12: up on it each time? And again, I am not

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Speaker 12: implying anything about her. I'm trying to actually go through

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Speaker 12: how this happened.

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Speaker 7: Does anybody have any thoughts on that?

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Speaker 1: I got a thought, but I'll bring in the experts

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Speaker 1: a transfer just like Okay, just a few minutes ago

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Speaker 1: before we went to air, my co worker Sydney handed

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Speaker 1: me a big stack of papers to go through about

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Speaker 1: three minutes before we started, and she leaned over me

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Speaker 1: with her long blonde hair and I turned. I guarantee

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Speaker 1: you some piece of hair or some something brushed up

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Speaker 1: against my jacket and it's there. Okay. You know who

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Speaker 1: loves talking about this. Joe Scott Morgan. He loves what's

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Speaker 1: your You have some quote you always start with? Why? Okay,

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Speaker 1: I'll let you tell it. Joe Scott Morgan with me

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Speaker 1: professor friends at Jacksonville State University, and I've got to

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Speaker 1: tell you I've been to their crim pro building and facilities.

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Speaker 1: That's an incredible program. Joe Scott, author of Blood Beneath

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Speaker 1: My Feet and host of a hit series Body Bags.

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Speaker 1: That Joe Scott Morgan, go ahead, No, action doesn't leave

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Speaker 1: the trays? Ll la, la la. What's the rest of that?

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Speaker 13: The cards principle, Every contact leaves a trace and it

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Speaker 13: is a cornerstone that we work from in forensics, and

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Speaker 13: it's that axiom is over one hundred years old and

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Speaker 13: it still applies.

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Speaker 1: Tell it, Joe Scott, preach it. Preach it, father, because

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Speaker 1: this tie is going down because of this DNA. And

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Speaker 1: when I think of these computer searches at him, acting

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Speaker 1: out those horrible, horrible, evil computer searches, all these ladies

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Speaker 1: to hell with him. Now, I got to figure out

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Speaker 1: a way to prove it hit it.

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Speaker 13: Let me give you a hellscape here, and I think

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Speaker 13: that it exists in that house. And this is my

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Speaker 13: supposition here. You know, we were speaking just a moment

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Speaker 13: ago about the transfer of the wife's hair. You know

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Speaker 13: you mentioned Sydney in the studio. What space do you

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Speaker 13: guys share, probably on a daily basis when you're laying

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Speaker 13: down sound, it's in that studio, okay, So within that

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Speaker 13: environment you kind of coexist in that environment. I am

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Speaker 13: very curious, Nancy, relative to the accused, where any of

433
00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:04,320
Speaker 13: these victims brought back to this home.

434
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,600
Speaker 1: That's such a good idea, Joe Scott, because you remember

435
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:11,480
Speaker 1: Joe Scott many of these and jump in Anthony Carter,

436
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,240
Speaker 1: Deputy Commissioner, and Kristen Thorn because you may know better

437
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:17,720
Speaker 1: than Joe Scott and I many of these murders occurred

438
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:21,880
Speaker 1: while his wife was gone, and she has very distinct hair.

439
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:27,159
Speaker 1: She is Icelandic, so her DNA is going to be

440
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:31,520
Speaker 1: very identifiable. And this is mitochondrial DNA, which comes from

441
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 1: your mother only. So anybody jump in with a thought

442
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 1: in Bethany, I promise I'm circling back.

443
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:42,159
Speaker 8: This is Toby. First of all, the hair. I was

444
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:45,359
Speaker 8: a FREENSIC hair examiner for a short time. Also, the

445
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:48,280
Speaker 8: average person that has hair loses about one hundred hairs

446
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:53,040
Speaker 8: at a day randomly, So the hair connection on just

447
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 8: the one per victim would be coincident, could be yell

448
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 8: called coincidence on three victims, that becomes or of a pattern.

449
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:03,879
Speaker 8: But the locations of the hair is because of that.

450
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:08,120
Speaker 8: If she rode in the avalanche, if it was on

451
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:11,640
Speaker 8: his clothing, if he took any of the victims home,

452
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:16,439
Speaker 8: all those are reasonable explanations for where the hair is

453
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 8: that the DNA was done on came from because of

454
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:24,720
Speaker 8: the fact that we lose hair so easily, so that connection,

455
00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:29,680
Speaker 8: you know, is more open to interpretation. Where you come from.

456
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:33,960
Speaker 8: It's very probable because he transported them, or may have

457
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:37,960
Speaker 8: transported them in the avalanche, that the hairs were on

458
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:41,400
Speaker 8: him or in that vehicle and that's where the transfer occurred.

459
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,280
Speaker 8: Or if the you know, if the fur loot bags

460
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:46,160
Speaker 8: came from his home. They could have been transferred there.

461
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:50,040
Speaker 8: But hair transfers are a common thing, and you know

462
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:54,080
Speaker 8: there it makes it harder to interpret what's going on

463
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 8: because of how common it is.

464
00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 1: But I agree with you. You're hearing Toby Wilson, forensic

465
00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 1: consult especially in DNA erology bloodstain at no Slow Forensic

466
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:11,200
Speaker 1: dot Com. Well, he's right, of course, Joe Scott Morgan.

467
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:16,480
Speaker 1: But three hairs, as Kristen Thorn pointed out, each one

468
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:19,960
Speaker 1: on a different victim. I want to explore your theory

469
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:23,960
Speaker 1: that these victims may have been taken to his home.

470
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:26,800
Speaker 1: I mean, when you've got three hairs on three different victims,

471
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 1: the only thing the defense can do now is an

472
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 1: AJA defense it was planted. I mean, let me hear

473
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:34,840
Speaker 1: your theory, Joe Scott.

474
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:37,720
Speaker 13: Well, this is one thing that I'm very encouraged by

475
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:41,320
Speaker 13: and that thieves folks are doing, is that I saw

476
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 13: these images on the news of the police, the investigators

477
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 13: going in and out of that home and Nancy. I

478
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 13: hope they retain this place and take it down to

479
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:53,960
Speaker 13: the damn studs. That everything that they can harvest out

480
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:58,480
Speaker 13: of that environment from an evidentary standpoint is going to

481
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 13: be acquired. Here's one more thing, and I'll be quiet.

482
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 1: I don't want you to be quiet. I love everything

483
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 1: you're saying.

484
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 13: It's something that really sent a chill up up my spine.

485
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 13: And maybe it's maybe it's a wild goose chase, but

486
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:13,600
Speaker 13: this one victim. I was looking at this charging document

487
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:18,600
Speaker 13: that's mentioned the Mari Miss Marine Brainer Barnes, and one

488
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:21,120
Speaker 13: thing that kind of sent a chill up my spine

489
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 13: was that this burner phone that the accused had, or

490
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 13: that he is alleged to have had, had contacts with

491
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:32,200
Speaker 13: Marine's phone sixteen times Nancy over a period of time

492
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:35,880
Speaker 13: from July to sixth or July the ninth. Okay, they

493
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 13: have her phone finally dropping off the face for a while,

494
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 13: and there's like a couple of days lag in there.

495
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 13: But then here's the chilling part. He apparently the perpetrator

496
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 13: opened her phone up again and began to check her messages.

497
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 13: Let me ask you something, Nancy, would you just blindly

498
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 13: give without any kind of fighting back. Would you give

499
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 13: somebody the code to your cell phone to check your messages?

500
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,680
Speaker 13: I mean, I know I wouldn't. I don't know about

501
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:16,760
Speaker 13: the other folks on the panel. But how did he

502
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:20,200
Speaker 13: get that information from her in order to get in

503
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:22,880
Speaker 13: to her voicemail to check it? If that is true?

504
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 13: What they're a legend, and that to me is chilling.

505
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:30,040
Speaker 13: That to me shows that he may have been in

506
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 13: control of that person in particular about the rest of them.

507
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:34,360
Speaker 13: I have no idea.

508
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 1: Well, all you've got to do is look at his

509
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:39,920
Speaker 1: Google searches Joe Scott and figure and I can tell you.

510
00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 1: I mean, he looks up a hog tyme raping woman.

511
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 1: I'm obviously he is fixated on torture. I mean, Dr

512
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall, you don't see that kind of Google search

513
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,480
Speaker 1: every day, and I've looked at plenty of people's computers

514
00:31:57,480 --> 00:31:58,120
Speaker 1: in their searches.

515
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:01,560
Speaker 9: You absolutely not frame our discussion. If you think of

516
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 9: this guy as a combination of an obsessive sex addict

517
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,880
Speaker 9: who thrives off power and inflicting pain in order to

518
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 9: enhance his sexual arousal, his victim profile is going to

519
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 9: keep changing if he goes to more and more extreme

520
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:25,120
Speaker 9: types of pornography and more different types of victims in

521
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,200
Speaker 9: order to enhance his sexual arousal. So maybe he starts

522
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 9: with someone with it in his own race, an age mate.

523
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:34,600
Speaker 9: Then he goes to a younger person, than a smaller person,

524
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 9: than a bigger person, than a man, than.

525
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 1: A woman, than a child.

526
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 9: And so I think that the complication and why the

527
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:44,360
Speaker 9: investigation is going to have to focus so much on

528
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 9: the data and the science is this guy is going

529
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:53,320
Speaker 9: to find anything in order to increase his sexual arousal,

530
00:32:53,560 --> 00:33:00,720
Speaker 9: and not just finding different victims, but stalking them, with them,

531
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 9: perhaps taking them back to his house. This is not

532
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:06,800
Speaker 9: a one and done kind of guy where maybe someone

533
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:11,480
Speaker 9: looks at pornography, masturbates, closes the computer. This is a

534
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:15,120
Speaker 9: guy who's going to get as much sexual satisfaction out

535
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 9: of any one victim as possible. So it's multiple assaults

536
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:23,640
Speaker 9: against one victim over an extended period of time.

537
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:26,719
Speaker 1: Which goes back to Joe Scott Morgan's theory that some

538
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 1: of the victims may have been taken to the home

539
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:33,000
Speaker 1: because an extended period of time assault probably would not

540
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 1: take place in a vehicle a Chevy Avalanche, but somewhere

541
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:56,240
Speaker 1: like a home or a motel room. Time Stories with

542
00:33:56,400 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace Anthony Carter joining as deputy police commissioner. Deputy Commissioner,

543
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 1: I don't know if you can comment on this, but

544
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 1: can you describe how his DNA was obtained off a pizza.

545
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:19,799
Speaker 6: Crust during surveillance. You know, he was being observed and

546
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:24,360
Speaker 6: there was an opportunity where he had discarded a I

547
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:28,759
Speaker 6: guess like a small personal pizza box into a garbage

548
00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 6: in the city and our undercovers were able to retrieve

549
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:37,440
Speaker 6: that box. And just to go back on a point

550
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:42,840
Speaker 6: to you know, whether you know his home may have

551
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 6: been involved in the location of the homicides. The one

552
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:53,719
Speaker 6: thing that we can say is that it's not a

553
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:57,760
Speaker 6: coincidence that his wife and family were away and three

554
00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:02,560
Speaker 6: of the murders and we're taking you know, like I said,

555
00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:06,839
Speaker 6: active investigation. We're at the home. I think somebody had

556
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:09,719
Speaker 6: mentioned on the call here that we're taking the house.

557
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:13,360
Speaker 6: We should take the help and I think that is

558
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 6: the plan to get every piece of evidence that we

559
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:21,560
Speaker 6: can possibly get while we're inside of that home with me.

560
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:26,040
Speaker 1: Deputy Commissioner Anthony Carter from Suffolk County Police, I got

561
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 1: to tell you something, Deputy Commissioner, I'm the first one

562
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:37,160
Speaker 1: to scream when police screw up an investigation because it

563
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:40,120
Speaker 1: hurts me as a former prosecutor and a crime victim myself.

564
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:45,720
Speaker 1: But I am so impressed with your surveillance of hereman,

565
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:49,080
Speaker 1: your identification of him. I know it's been a long

566
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 1: time coming, but this is a fresh homicide task force.

567
00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:56,440
Speaker 1: This is a whole new look because this case was

568
00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:01,799
Speaker 1: ignored by prior administration. You guys come in there like

569
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:05,520
Speaker 1: a barn on fire. You find this guy, you surveil him,

570
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 1: you really look at the evidence. Then you catch him

571
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 1: discarding a pizza crust and get his DNA which matches

572
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:18,920
Speaker 1: up to other DNA. You get his wife's DNA. Do

573
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,319
Speaker 1: we have any idea? Can you comment on how you

574
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:21,839
Speaker 1: did that?

575
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:27,440
Speaker 6: Deputy Commissioner, So the same you know, same methodology in

576
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:32,880
Speaker 6: trying to obtain abandon examples. You know, very similar fashion

577
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:39,120
Speaker 6: where we were able to obtain recycled cans from their look,

578
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:40,080
Speaker 6: you know, from where they live.

579
00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:41,920
Speaker 1: So that's how you got the wife's DNA.

580
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:42,680
Speaker 6: That's correct.

581
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 1: Wow, there's so much I hardly know which way to go.

582
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:49,239
Speaker 1: But let me understand something, Kristen Thorne, anybody on the

583
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:51,600
Speaker 1: panel that knows the answer to this. The way I'm

584
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:57,480
Speaker 1: reading the affidavit and other information, was this idiot actually

585
00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:01,480
Speaker 1: traveling with a burner phone and his own private mobile

586
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:05,640
Speaker 1: phone together like toyburger. You know, you can see him

587
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:08,919
Speaker 1: traveling away from the crime scene. Did that happen? Does

588
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:09,600
Speaker 1: anybody know?

589
00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 7: Well, we know that they certainly there are They certainly

590
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:20,520
Speaker 7: tracked the burner phones relationship and location near Matsapequa Park

591
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:23,080
Speaker 7: as well as his midcount office, and they called that

592
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:28,360
Speaker 7: the box. That was the point that they used to triangulate,

593
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:30,799
Speaker 7: although in that word it would be three sides, but

594
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:35,120
Speaker 7: the box would be four to really, you know, pinpoint

595
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:38,960
Speaker 7: that his locations where he was, where he lives, where

596
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:42,879
Speaker 7: he worked, were also coordinating with the hits from these

597
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:43,480
Speaker 7: burner phones.

598
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:46,319
Speaker 1: Okay, break that down too, regular people talk.

599
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:48,879
Speaker 10: This is todd So I think what significance is what

600
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:51,440
Speaker 10: you're saying, and what they alleged in the court documents

601
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:55,080
Speaker 10: is that they found no instance where the suspect was

602
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:58,080
Speaker 10: in a separate location from the other cell phones when

603
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:01,560
Speaker 10: the communications occurred when he was talking to them from

604
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 10: the Burner phones, and so at that significant that they

605
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:07,280
Speaker 10: tied them together from those soteller records, that his phone

606
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:10,239
Speaker 10: was there and the Burner phone was there in instances

607
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:14,239
Speaker 10: outside of the calls his phone, you know was not there.

608
00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:16,320
Speaker 10: So it's pretty significant.

609
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:23,839
Speaker 1: Okay, that is entirely significant to Anthony Carter, Deputy Police Commissioner.

610
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:25,200
Speaker 1: What do you make of that theory?

611
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:27,960
Speaker 6: So, you know, I think when we talk about some

612
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:30,880
Speaker 6: of the locations that we talked about, you know, the

613
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:34,560
Speaker 6: burner phones versus his phone, and trying to tie that

614
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:37,360
Speaker 6: all in, I think it was you know, it was

615
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:40,480
Speaker 6: challenging because we look, we're looking in an area of

616
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:45,680
Speaker 6: over fifteen hundred homes that also included a portion of

617
00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:51,399
Speaker 6: the Massapeka Preserve, and that also then opens up which

618
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 6: are hitting those cell towers to people that may or

619
00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:56,239
Speaker 6: may not even live in Massapeka, may or may not

620
00:38:56,280 --> 00:39:00,319
Speaker 6: even live in Nasa County. So I mean that is

621
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:06,239
Speaker 6: one of the things behind the exhaustive effort committed by

622
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:09,360
Speaker 6: the members of the PASK Force to try to drill

623
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:13,120
Speaker 6: down and get the right information and the right evidence

624
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:16,759
Speaker 6: to you know, move us forward in the case.

625
00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:19,960
Speaker 1: Christen Thorn w ABC Channel seven, what can you tell

626
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:24,640
Speaker 1: me about recent revelations of a storage unit a search?

627
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:27,840
Speaker 7: So we know that there's an active investigation right now,

628
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:31,800
Speaker 7: but around a storage unit on Long Island, and for

629
00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:35,520
Speaker 7: all we know and we believe that it is connected

630
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:39,239
Speaker 7: to this investigation. You know, I think what they're going

631
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:41,400
Speaker 7: to be looking for. And I also noticed in the

632
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:43,600
Speaker 7: indictment and we talk about his house and how they

633
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:46,400
Speaker 7: do need to and are going to tear apart that house,

634
00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:50,719
Speaker 7: there were items missing from the victims, so jewelry, some

635
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:53,320
Speaker 7: pieces of clothing. Those are things that would probably be

636
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:55,560
Speaker 7: familiar to the family that the family told them she

637
00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:59,040
Speaker 7: used to always wear this necklace, this bracelet. That's very

638
00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:02,160
Speaker 7: common we find, and so those things were missing, and

639
00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:03,920
Speaker 7: so those are the things that they're going to be

640
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:07,640
Speaker 7: looking for in the house and in this potential storage unit.

641
00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:12,840
Speaker 1: This is rapidly developing, but for right now, a suspect

642
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:18,600
Speaker 1: in custody in the Long Island serial killings. We wait

643
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 1: as the evidence unfaults get by friend