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Speaker 1: On the Beckel Cast, the questions asked if movies have

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Speaker 1: women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,

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Speaker 1: or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef invest start

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Speaker 1: changing it with the Bechdel Cast. Hello, and welcome to

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Speaker 1: the Bechtel Cast. My name is Caitlin Darante. My name

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Speaker 1: is Jamie Loftus. I'm sick today. You're sick. Everyone should

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Speaker 1: feel so bad for me. I feel so bad wondering

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Speaker 1: the streets, just getting passed by to be like, are

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Speaker 1: you sick? I'm so sorry. So we are the Bechtel Cast.

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Speaker 1: We talk about the portrayal of women in movies. We

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Speaker 1: use the Bechtel test as a test that just initiates

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Speaker 1: a larger conversation for us, a larger conversation about the

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Speaker 1: representation of women in cinema. The Bechtel test is a

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Speaker 1: test that requires that two female identifying characters in a

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Speaker 1: movie have names, they speak to each other, and their

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Speaker 1: conversation is not about a man. Yes, Hey, let's demo it.

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Speaker 1: Let's Caitlyn. Hey, Jamie, have you ever tried pedal light?

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Speaker 1: I don't think that I have. I've had two jugs.

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Speaker 1: They only sell them in jug form. For some reason.

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Speaker 1: We've had two jugs of po Light in the past

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Speaker 1: twenty four hours, and I started very anti pedia Light,

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Speaker 1: But like in movies, the PDA light wore me down

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Speaker 1: and I'm fully in love with Polite. It's my beverage

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Speaker 1: of choice, replacing Mike's hard lemonade. Even Okay, now it

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Speaker 1: doesn't pass anymore because you brought Mike into the conversation.

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Speaker 1: Unbelievable might be. Yeah, I think that pel It's my

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Speaker 1: new chaser. Okay, good, Yeah, just take a swig of

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Speaker 1: vodka and a swing of Pedi Light. You're basically sober now.

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Speaker 1: Ped Light is like a children's beverage, yes, but you

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Speaker 1: also drink it when you're sick. It's supposed to keep

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Speaker 1: you hydrated and and safe. You know what other occasion

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Speaker 1: you might need to be hydrated, like playing soccer. See

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Speaker 1: where this is going. For example, you did that this morning.

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Speaker 1: I did that this morning. It was fun my team

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Speaker 1: one really yeah, sorry, that was that's exciting, thank you? Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And also soccer related is the movie we're talking about today, Well,

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Speaker 1: you're talking about She's the Man. This is like our

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Speaker 1: second soccer movie and our second Shakespeare adaptation we've discussed recently. Yes, indeed,

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Speaker 1: observation campaigned second movie recently, also by the screenwriting duo

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Speaker 1: of Karen McCullough and Kirsten Smith. Oh I didn't know that. Yes, wow, oh, yes,

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Speaker 1: they're you know they're the Shakespeare gals? Right? Is that

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Speaker 1: what their podcast is called? Just kidding? So to join

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Speaker 1: us in our discussion about the movie, our guest today

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Speaker 1: is the producer of Historical Roast and Fictional Roast, the

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Speaker 1: producer of many podcasts including Forever thirty five and Mother

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Speaker 1: May I Sleep With Sammy Junia. Hello, it's me, my

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Speaker 1: dear friends, man, it's me reboot Sammy one. Have you

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Speaker 1: tried the Electrolyte. They've rebranded Polite to be electro l

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Speaker 1: y t, Electrolyte or Electrolyte, and they sell it at

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Speaker 1: seven elevens and I've consumed crates of it. It's great. Well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: so you don't have to buy a jug. You can

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Speaker 1: just buy it. I was feeling the stigma of the

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Speaker 1: plighted jug because that's just like carrying it outside and

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Speaker 1: Saturday night and everyone's like, she's very sick because she's demented.

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Speaker 1: If I'm gonna buy it. Everyge hydrated, be careful, she's

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Speaker 1: demented and very hydrated. So Sammy, tell us about your relationship,

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Speaker 1: your history with She's the Man. Well, I've seen it

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Speaker 1: maybe thirteen times in the past day. I was like

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Speaker 1: once every two hours watching it right now, it's in

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Speaker 1: Google glass. I watched a lot when I was younger,

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Speaker 1: and I just I think this movie is so so

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Speaker 1: flawless and perfect and wonderful and magical. And that's a

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Speaker 1: that's a relationship. I'm married to the movie. Okay, great,

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Speaker 1: I can't twelve years strong unbe inspiring. Yeah, truly, congratulations.

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Speaker 1: I'm also cosplaying you are as an Illyrian. Yes you are.

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Speaker 1: We will take a photograph. We will post it on

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Speaker 1: our Instagram. Sammy is dressed as Sebastian and She's the Man.

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Speaker 1: You're looking very dapper. Thank you, Jamie. What's your history

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Speaker 1: with She's the Man? It's this morning? Yep, yep. Thoughts

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Speaker 1: loved it? Yeahs yes, it's so fun. And because it was,

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Speaker 1: this was like one of the many, like the decade

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Speaker 1: preceding this, and I think that they sort of like

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Speaker 1: peter out after this. But this was one of many

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Speaker 1: Shakespeare adaptations coming out in the late nineties into the

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Speaker 1: two thousands for teenagers, it was like this bizarre movie

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Speaker 1: fat and this was kind of the last and the

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Speaker 1: best that I've seen of all of them. Where were

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Speaker 1: the other ones? I've got? I've got a hot list

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Speaker 1: ten things I hate about you in episode the True

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Speaker 1: Romeo plus Juliet that bas that bazaster as I like

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Speaker 1: to call the disaster piece called klet is horrified with

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Speaker 1: the disastrous piece. There's others. I have a power list somewhere.

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Speaker 1: I'll find it. God, what's happening? I just turned into

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Speaker 1: who's the Who's the nerdy girl in this movie? I

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Speaker 1: just sound like her? Oh? Unice, Oh, I can't wait

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Speaker 1: to talk about Unice. Um. I saw this movie I

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Speaker 1: think when it first came out in two thousands six,

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Speaker 1: and I really enjoyed it. But for some reason, it

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Speaker 1: was not a DVD that I ever added to my collection,

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Speaker 1: so I didn't watch it throughout the years, which was

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Speaker 1: a mistake, because I have seen this movie maybe four

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Speaker 1: to five times in the past, like five days. Addicted, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and obsessed. Now I'm surprised because you are you. You

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Speaker 1: are such a soccer head. That right, thank you? That

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Speaker 1: is stripper name soccer Head coming to the stage soccer Head. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't know why I didn't latch onto it more.

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Speaker 1: And this movie is certainly not without its flaws. There

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Speaker 1: is a whole lot to discuss. Also, motocrossed Twelve Night adaptation.

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Speaker 1: They all end up having the same stupid like boy hair,

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Speaker 1: though just like a really weird like flat mop did. Admittedly,

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Speaker 1: there's also an adaptation of Twelfth Night called just one

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Speaker 1: of the Guys from five and a gender swept one

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Speaker 1: called Ladybugs. Oh I didn't realize that was what that was. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: look at that? Is that another soccer movie? No, Mio

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Speaker 1: and Juliet locks, that's just another movie that's not Shakespeare. Well.

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Speaker 1: One of the fun things about Twelfth Night. In shakespeare days, uh,

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Speaker 1: women weren't allowed to perform as actors on stage, So

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Speaker 1: in this still are right, right, I mean, are allowed

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Speaker 1: to do anything. So the actor who played Viola in

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Speaker 1: Shakespearean times would have had to have been a man

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Speaker 1: playing the role of a woman who then pretends to

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Speaker 1: be a man. So it's like gender swapping and then

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Speaker 1: gender swapping back, like to see what that actor thought

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Speaker 1: that looks like? Right? Yeah? Well and then and there

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Speaker 1: are a few we don't need to talk about Shakespeare,

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Speaker 1: not much. But like, this is like such a good

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Speaker 1: adaptation of a Shakespeare play because first of all, you

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Speaker 1: can't necessarily tell that's a Shakespeare adaptation. The names aren't

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Speaker 1: goofy except for Melvolio, the snake, feminist icon. It's just

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Speaker 1: like all the like stuff that sounds really Shakespeare was

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Speaker 1: taken out. Like originally Viola thought that her brother died

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Speaker 1: at sea, which would have been an interesting thing to

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Speaker 1: introduce it to this, but I'm glad that they're just like, Oh,

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Speaker 1: he's in London with his freaking shoegaze band. Have either

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Speaker 1: of you read the play? Oh no, I can't read

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Speaker 1: Oh sure, sure, sure, sure I have read it. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I haven't read it. Um but again I WICKI pediod

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Speaker 1: I know, so again I'm a scholar. But it seems

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Speaker 1: as though the story in Twelfth Night is much more

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Speaker 1: romance oriented, and there's no attempt to like dismantle any

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Speaker 1: sort of like gender norms or anything like that of soccer,

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Speaker 1: No soccer at all. It's I think File is just

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Speaker 1: trying to literally get a job, which is kind of upsetting. Wow. Yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: shall I do the recap of the movie. Let's do

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Speaker 1: it all right? This is another this is a complicated one. Okay.

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Speaker 1: So Viola played by Amanda Bindes, No, no, noa. I

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Speaker 1: know the beginning song. I know all of the songs.

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Speaker 1: I sorry, Sammy, this is a no shame zone. You're right, yeah,

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Speaker 1: please When the moment where Sam's a sharty little secret

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Speaker 1: starts playing, I haven't encouraged due to just releasing the

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Speaker 1: whole song. Guy's noticed that there are two all American

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Speaker 1: reject songs in even it's basically an Apper crownbeat it is.

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Speaker 1: I bet they smell like that. You know that. The

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Speaker 1: set of She's the Man reeked of Hollist. Frances absolutely

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Speaker 1: I used to work at a Hollister. Anyway, it was

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Speaker 1: the worst month of my life. Okay. Viola is played

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Speaker 1: by Amanda Bindes and she loves soccer. Her boyfriend Justin

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Speaker 1: tells her, oh my gosh, you're like better than half

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Speaker 1: the guys on my team. But then her school cuts

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Speaker 1: the women's soccer team due to lack of interest. Right, so,

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Speaker 1: when Viola one to try out for the men's team,

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Speaker 1: her boyfriend, who had just told her, yeah, you're really

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Speaker 1: good at soccer. Is like, you're a girl and you're

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Speaker 1: not good enough. So she breaks up with him toxic.

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Speaker 1: Now she's got something to prove. Dar Let me. Now

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Speaker 1: when Viola's twin brother, Sebastian, who I thought for a

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Speaker 1: second was Drake Bell and that would have been perfect casting. Also,

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Speaker 1: I was telling Kitlin the other day that I discovered

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Speaker 1: that Jesse McCartney was supposed to be that guy. Jesse

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Speaker 1: would have also been both have those soft, soft childlike features.

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Speaker 1: Were you all into Dreams Street? No, I don't know

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Speaker 1: what that is. It was Jesse McCartney's boy band, so

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Speaker 1: I didn't know he was in a boymand. I thought

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Speaker 1: he was so low. Oh my gosh. You have to

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Speaker 1: listen to Dreams Baby, because baby down on Dreams Street

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Speaker 1: and it's like Jesse McCartney as a boy soprato. It's unbelievable, incredible. Yeah. Well, anyways,

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Speaker 1: so Viola's twin brother, Sebastian, decides to go to London

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Speaker 1: for a couple of weeks instead of going to school

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Speaker 1: at a private school called Allyria, which is nearby to Cornwall,

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Speaker 1: where Viola goes to school, which is a fun Shakespearean

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Speaker 1: reference for all you shakespeare heads out there. So then

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Speaker 1: Viola decides to pretend to be her brother so that

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Speaker 1: she can play soccer on the boys team at Illia

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Speaker 1: and beat her ex boyfriend Justin, who had told her

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Speaker 1: that she was a girl. So she's not good enough

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Speaker 1: in the rival game that they have coming up in

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Speaker 1: two weeks or twelve days, twelve nights really quick. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: why does no one at Viola's school notice that she's gone?

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Speaker 1: Good question, Jamie. The movie does not address that, and

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Speaker 1: it is a plot hole, but I think the divorce parents.

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Speaker 1: But I was like Viola straight up, there's another world

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Speaker 1: where they is like gone girl, because if a white

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Speaker 1: girl does not show up for her first day of

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Speaker 1: junior year, it's gone girls, right or a recent release Searching,

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Speaker 1: which I did see in theaters the other day, brag,

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Speaker 1: I enjoyed it you anyway. So Viola as Sebastian meets

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Speaker 1: her roommate Duke played by Channing Tatum, and I'm brilliant.

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Speaker 1: Oh this would be so funny. Um Duke and everyone

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Speaker 1: else basically thinks that Sebastian is lame. Viola as Sebastian,

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Speaker 1: I think, for the sake of clarity, and ease of talking.

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Speaker 1: When I say Sebastian, what I mean is Viola pretending

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Speaker 1: to be Sebastian. And then when I say the real Sebastian,

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Speaker 1: that's that's the right. So so Sebastian tries out for

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Speaker 1: the soccer team, the men's soccer team, and makes second string,

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Speaker 1: second string. This is all, this is all I'm doing

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Speaker 1: during just recap. I'm so sorry. I'm not sorry. Don't

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Speaker 1: become to hi. Welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome,

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Speaker 1: welcome to Alliria. So thank you. So then in order

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Speaker 1: for Sebastian to seem cooler, he uses her. She uses Violet.

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Speaker 1: It's this confusing. Viola uses her friends Kia and Yvonne

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Speaker 1: to pretend to throw themselves at Sebastian, and then it works,

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Speaker 1: And now Duke and all of his friends were like, wow, Sebastian,

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Speaker 1: she's the man. That's the name of the movie. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they all say that in Unison and we're like, what

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Speaker 1: it's like forty five minutes in. So meanwhile, Duke likes

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Speaker 1: their classmate Olivia and Dreamy asks Sebastian for help to

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Speaker 1: try to get with her, and then in exchange, Duke

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Speaker 1: will be like, I'll help you improve your soccer game, Sebastian,

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Speaker 1: so that you can first string. So then Olivia starts

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Speaker 1: to like Sebastians. Now we've got this whole love triangle

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Speaker 1: like Sebastian pretty much the second she meets right right

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Speaker 1: right those dropped books in the hall and she gives

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Speaker 1: him a look, oh my god, twitter painted I wanted

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Speaker 1: them to kiss, So that that is my That is

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Speaker 1: my biggest beef is that they don't kiss. And then

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Speaker 1: we don't see the repercussion of Olivia recognizing that she

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Speaker 1: had a crush on a girl playing a boy, like,

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Speaker 1: well what about that, Olivia? Yeah, what what does that mean?

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Speaker 1: I feel like Olivia is ultimately kind of short change

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Speaker 1: because she's like, I just love whoever was named Sebastian.

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Speaker 1: Like that seems a little reductive and confusing. Yeah, So

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Speaker 1: then Sebastian a K. Viola starts to like Duke and

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Speaker 1: Viola as Viola I mean, and Duke is Likerea me, yes,

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Speaker 1: Channing Tatum normally not my type, but he's all so

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Speaker 1: like a comedic genius. He's so funny. He's so funny.

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Speaker 1: Every time I talk about Janning dadem I turned into

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Speaker 1: a woman I hate, Like he's just so he's like

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Speaker 1: you wouldn't think, but like he's so funny. It's true,

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Speaker 1: I know. Anyways, So then Viola as Viola and Duke

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Speaker 1: kiss at a kissing booth at a carnival, which is

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Speaker 1: a fundraiser for Debutante Ball, which is a whole subplot

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Speaker 1: that we'll talk about later on. Yeah, the kissing booth,

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Speaker 1: tenuous loved every second, right, kissing booths? Are they even

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Speaker 1: legal nowadays? Like at all? Ever? Yeah, there's I don't

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Speaker 1: think they exist anymore. And I feel like it's like

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Speaker 1: a real big stretch presents like oh, this is a

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Speaker 1: fun game of carnival assault, Like what the fuck is this?

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Speaker 1: And also the fact that like Viola's mom was like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: this rules, Like I don't know if I believe that.

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Speaker 1: So now Viola likes Duke, and Duke kind of likes Viola,

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Speaker 1: but he still has feelings for Olivia, so he's confused.

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Speaker 1: Kiss her will crap out of her. Thank you for

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Speaker 1: your contributions. Hey, you're welcome. You can't cut me out

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Speaker 1: of this one, baby, So Olivia to make Sebastian jealous

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Speaker 1: starts to pay attention to Duke, and then there's this

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Speaker 1: whole thing where she marches up and kisses the real

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Speaker 1: Sebastian who comes back from London a day early, and

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Speaker 1: then he plays in the first half of the big

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Speaker 1: rival soccer game as Monique is there the whole right,

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Speaker 1: there's a Monique situation. Viola as Sebastian is like, hey, brother,

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Speaker 1: I've been impersonating you. Sorry, but I'm going to play

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Speaker 1: the rest of the soccer game. And Duke is mad

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Speaker 1: at Sebastian because he thinks that he betrayed him by

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Speaker 1: kissing Olivia, and then Sebastian is a fucking idiot from

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Speaker 1: being like the soccer team like what sir, Like you

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Speaker 1: just have to suspend your disbelief. So then in the

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Speaker 1: middle of the game, the real Sebastian shows is drunk.

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Speaker 1: Viola as Sebastians like, actually, I'm a girl, and Duke,

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Speaker 1: I love you, and he's like, what's happening, okay, and

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Speaker 1: the whole click con is revealed. Duke's like, this is weird.

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Speaker 1: I feel weird about this. So the jig is up,

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Speaker 1: but there's still the Debutan ball, so Viola is like, hey,

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Speaker 1: would you want to come to the ball with me,

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Speaker 1: And he's like, oh no, but then he goes and

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Speaker 1: then I kiss this slurp. Can I just like, for

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Speaker 1: your consideration, the day of the big game, let's just

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Speaker 1: walk through Sebastian's day. The night before, he walks into

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Speaker 1: a room he's never been, finds out all of his

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Speaker 1: stuff is already there and appears lived in. He's fine

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Speaker 1: with it. He's like, well, I'm tired, So he says, like,

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Speaker 1: you set up on the stuff for me. Cool, So

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Speaker 1: he addresses it, but it's like it is like what weird? Fuck? Okay,

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Speaker 1: he goes wakes up a whole soccer teams like the

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Speaker 1: game is happening, and he's like, okay, maybe I'll see

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Speaker 1: the girl who kissed me at this soccer game. Why

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Speaker 1: would that be true? We don't know, because she says

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Speaker 1: he at the game marrow. She also, surprised kisses him,

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Speaker 1: which we can mention. But but he goes to the

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Speaker 1: game except that he is one of the best players

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Speaker 1: on the team, and then in the middle of the

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Speaker 1: game someone challenges his gender and he's like, you know what,

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Speaker 1: I know. This day has been all over the place

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Speaker 1: so far, but I'm just gonna go ahead and drop

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Speaker 1: my pants in front of a stadium full of people

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Speaker 1: because David Cross, I'm not sure what's going on, like

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Speaker 1: absolutely insane. Anyways, that's excellent point, Jamie. But if you

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Speaker 1: had that kind of day, wouldn't you roll with it?

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Speaker 1: I mean, by the time he's asked to drop his pants,

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Speaker 1: I'm like, you know what, at this point, this day

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Speaker 1: has already been confusing, right, And on that note, we're

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Speaker 1: gonna take a quick break and we'll talk to you

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Speaker 1: in a second and we're back, all right. So for

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Speaker 1: this movie, you can kind of just like boil down

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Speaker 1: the story of in order to prove that a woman

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Speaker 1: is as capable and is equal to men, she disguises

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Speaker 1: herself as a man to prove a point. If you

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Speaker 1: can't join them, baby, I love it. So it gives

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Speaker 1: us a lot to talk about. So on one hand,

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Speaker 1: there's like in the very beginning of the movie there,

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Speaker 1: you know, they go to try to try out for

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Speaker 1: the boys soccer team, when the girls realize that they've

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Speaker 1: been cut, and the coach of the boys team is

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Speaker 1: all like, uh, actually, um, girls aren't as fast as boys,

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Speaker 1: or as strong or as athletic. H this is just science.

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Speaker 1: So and we in the audience were like, who wha

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Speaker 1: what excuse me? Pump those brakes and then justin the

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Speaker 1: boyfriend agrees with the coach and then he is immediately dumped.

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Speaker 1: So at least we get to see some like misogyny

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Speaker 1: and sexism being punished right away. And I think that

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Speaker 1: that is like a moment. I don't know, that was

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Speaker 1: a moment that I connected with quite a bit of

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Speaker 1: like dating someone in high school who would be like,

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Speaker 1: you're awesome, you're smart, you know, but only in one

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Speaker 1: on one situations, and then in front of guy friends

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Speaker 1: or friends in general, their attitude towards you shifts because

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Speaker 1: they're insecure. Right, We've got this like misogyny being punished,

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Speaker 1: and then we've got a headstrong woman seeking to dismantle

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Speaker 1: this idea that women aren't as good as men at

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Speaker 1: soccer specifically, and then she goes undercover, she puts on

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Speaker 1: the disguise. There's a whole makeover mont but but unlike

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Speaker 1: see in most movies where if it's a woman getting

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Speaker 1: a makeover, it's like, oh, you weren't as physically attractive

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Speaker 1: as you needed to be, so let's make you hotter.

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Speaker 1: The utility of this makeover montage is very different, yes,

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Speaker 1: because the mission right, it is mostly just her trying

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Speaker 1: on mustaches, which she never ends up bummer. I feel

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Speaker 1: like Sebastia Violas Sebastian would kill with a mustache. Well,

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Speaker 1: push broom on top of there, boom could do anything.

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Speaker 1: There was like a there was a I forget what

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Speaker 1: cartoon villain. She had a few cartoon villain mustaches, like

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Speaker 1: the long Droopers, the whiskers. Yeah, any ways, they threw

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Speaker 1: in Jesus in there too. They did beautiful. That was

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Speaker 1: a fun because I wrote I was in the middle

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Speaker 1: of writing down month and then I was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: but wait, it's good. Yeah. So she's the man kind

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Speaker 1: of puts this, like, I suppose so feminist spin on

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Speaker 1: the narrative that like Twelfth Night doesn't have, where it's like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: she's she's showing that she's just as capable as men

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Speaker 1: and that she's equal to men. But I would argue

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Speaker 1: that there are several instances where different characters Viola As

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Speaker 1: Sebastian included, participate in either sexist or homophobic behavior that

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Speaker 1: often goes completely unchallenged. So for example, there are several

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Speaker 1: moments when boys behave badly and Viola doesn't do anything

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Speaker 1: to challenge it. Viola as Sebastian Um. For example, there's

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Speaker 1: a scene where Violet as Sebastian first goes into her

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Speaker 1: dorm room. There's like all the soccer player guys there,

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Speaker 1: and they see tampons and they're like very grossed out

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Speaker 1: by it. Later on, like Duke can't even say the

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Speaker 1: word tampon, and but he does use one. He doesn't

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Speaker 1: feel like kind of commented on a a little bit there,

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Speaker 1: But I do agree where there are like oftentimes the

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Speaker 1: hurdles Viola has to get through are rooted in or

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Speaker 1: she'll get out of by behaving in a misogynist way.

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Speaker 1: And then they're so like overcome by like misogyny is

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Speaker 1: so fucking cool that they forget what the thing they

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Speaker 1: were about to be critical of was. But well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm I don't know, so it worked for me several times. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And in at least whenever she participates in the misogyny,

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Speaker 1: it's because she's trying to maintain this disguise, because there

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Speaker 1: are several times where she's like feelings and you know, sensitivity,

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Speaker 1: you're not going to say a nice thing, and they're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: what are you talking about? She's like, Oh, I mean,

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Speaker 1: which one would you rather see naked? So but then

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Speaker 1: in that same scene, Duke counters that by challenging that idea,

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Speaker 1: which is something that I really liked about Duke's character.

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Speaker 1: And they're our flaws in every character, and there are

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Speaker 1: moments that feel off with pretty much everyone at some

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Speaker 1: point for me anyways, But that scene I really liked

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Speaker 1: because Viola was kind of falling on the crutch of like,

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Speaker 1: let me behave or say something misogynists and that will

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Speaker 1: distract from what I was just doing. And then that's

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Speaker 1: one of the few times that it doesn't actually work,

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Speaker 1: and we find out that Duke is a sensitive man

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Speaker 1: feminist icon well, yeah, who's who? I feminist? He and

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Speaker 1: so handsome and sorry, my face is like leaking up

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Speaker 1: a storm and I'm like no, but turning Tatum is great.

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Speaker 1: But that scene I thought was really effective where Viola

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Speaker 1: falls on the crutch and and and then Duke counters

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Speaker 1: by saying like, well, that's not all relationship is for me,

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Speaker 1: as I want to be able to talk with and

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Speaker 1: then he literally says to her to Sebastian, why do

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Speaker 1: you always say stuff like that? Like why do you

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Speaker 1: why do you always talk about women that way? And

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Speaker 1: it's like, oh, And That's one of the things I

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Speaker 1: like about Duke's character in this movie a lot, is

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Speaker 1: that the setup of almost every high school movie is

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Speaker 1: that someone needs to be someone needs to change someone

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Speaker 1: else in order for relationship to happen. And it's not

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Speaker 1: like I think it would be very easy for this

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Speaker 1: movie to be like emotional labor thrust up on Viola. Uh,

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Speaker 1: some have emotional labor thrust upon them. Uh? Is that

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Speaker 1: you know, Viola would have to cure Duke of his

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Speaker 1: own internalized misogyny, but that doesn't really happen where it

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Speaker 1: comes out in private moments usually, But Duke already is

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Speaker 1: pretty respectful towards towards women and doesn't need to be

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Speaker 1: like changed in that way. There's another there's a similar

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Speaker 1: moment earlier on where they're at the cafeteria and Viola

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Speaker 1: at Sebastian is again attempting to fit in with the

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Speaker 1: guys by like that we're seeing he sees Olivia or she.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what pronouns to use. This pronoun expert

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Speaker 1: Sammy Juno just kidding. Um, I think, well it should

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Speaker 1: just be her because she's still she's still identifying as

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Speaker 1: Viola as a woman. But I mean, yeah, I guess

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Speaker 1: I think that that's probably it. So experts expert, that's all.

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Speaker 1: That's all the time I have Goodbye, Okay, So fake

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Speaker 1: Sebastian sees Olivia and it's like, oh, look at the

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Speaker 1: booty on that bondie God, such twenties vernacular. A lot

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00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:40,000
Speaker 1: of g money is being tossed about, like lord, just

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Speaker 1: like Viola trying to be a boy, just like overly

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Speaker 1: does it all the way. And I think that that's

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Speaker 1: just like whenever Viola overcompensates by being like super massages

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Speaker 1: like after being like sensitive or whatever, all of the

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Speaker 1: boys around her are like, I don't think that's that's

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Speaker 1: not it though, Well I would argue for inducing the well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: because they're they're I mean, I think it's because of

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Speaker 1: the presence of a of a woman that they're like,

417
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 1: oh yeah, like we can really do this with because

418
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 1: it's about a girl. But like every other time they're

419
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:14,879
Speaker 1: kind of just like that, you're weird, Yeah, so do

420
00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:18,960
Speaker 1: whenever like Sebastians like, oh, check out the booty on

421
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,959
Speaker 1: that blondie. And then Duke is like, don't talk about

422
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 1: her that way, and so we're like, okay, Duke feminist icon, right,

423
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:29,119
Speaker 1: But then his friends Toby Andrew say like, oh, yeah,

424
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:31,359
Speaker 1: she was just dating this college guy but he dumped her,

425
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 1: so now she's like super vulnerable. Her confidence and self

426
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:37,640
Speaker 1: esteem are really low, so like now is the time

427
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 1: to pounce, and they're like and then like Duke, Duke

428
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 1: doesn't respond at least verbally to that. So it's like,

429
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:48,160
Speaker 1: I'm not really inclined to give Duke a point there,

430
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 1: because the only woman he stands up for is the

431
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:54,920
Speaker 1: one he has feelings for, true, and that same respect,

432
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:58,640
Speaker 1: he doesn't stand up for Yvonne or what's the name

433
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,360
Speaker 1: of the other friend okia, Like, he doesn't stand ups.

434
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:03,919
Speaker 1: He just stands up for the girl that he's had

435
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:07,160
Speaker 1: a crush on for his whole life. Right. And then also, um,

436
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 1: anytime he has to interact with the Unice character, he's

437
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 1: always like, oh, like, I don't want to talk to Eunice.

438
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:18,040
Speaker 1: That's also everyone she's that's true, And except at the ending,

439
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:21,359
Speaker 1: which I need to watch the movie again, that comes

440
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:23,639
Speaker 1: totally out of nowhere, right, or is that foreshadowed in

441
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:27,480
Speaker 1: any way? What the units ending up with? What's that

442
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:32,160
Speaker 1: character's name? Oh that's I think Toby. Oh no, he says,

443
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:35,280
Speaker 1: he says something about Unice. Uh oh does he? There's

444
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:38,320
Speaker 1: two other times so he once they think that Sebastian

445
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:41,240
Speaker 1: is the top dog. Oh no, no, no, it's before that.

446
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:46,480
Speaker 1: When Duke is paired up with Unice in lab he goes, yeah,

447
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:50,760
Speaker 1: you just go something something. And then and then also

448
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:56,040
Speaker 1: in Cesario's when it's the double date between Duke and

449
00:28:56,120 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 1: Olivia and Viola and Unice, he goes, looks like you

450
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 1: is like cooler than we thought. And he goes, oh,

451
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:07,720
Speaker 1: what I've been saying that for years? I hate high school? Right?

452
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:12,640
Speaker 1: But so the the scenes, look I those are all

453
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:16,480
Speaker 1: direct quotes. It probably I've also watched this movie with commentary,

454
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 1: so to speak. On Channing's sensitivity, he actually the ring.

455
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 1: He wears a ring around his neck, and he said

456
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:26,000
Speaker 1: that there was a character choice because it's his He

457
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:28,239
Speaker 1: wanted it to be his mother's ring, just to like

458
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 1: play on the fact that he's like super sensitive and stuff.

459
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 1: And if you watch him through the entire movie, he

460
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,720
Speaker 1: does like react really weird when Sebastian goes like nutty

461
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 1: because he defends Olivia in the cafeteria, but also when

462
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:42,960
Speaker 1: they're setting the trap that Sebastian is really cool, like

463
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:46,080
Speaker 1: he's also like this is gross, Like he gets really

464
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 1: interpreted that way. I feel like he was like, oh, well,

465
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 1: like Sebastians the man. So let's talk about that scene.

466
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 1: So that's the first scene we see in like the

467
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 1: pizzeria where Cesario has another fun Shakespeare rap wish. So

468
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 1: Austian fake Sebastian is trying to seem cooler to their peers.

469
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 1: I'm just going to use their pronounced but that's the

470
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 1: easiest thing for me right now, it's not it, so

471
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:17,920
Speaker 1: hold on next. So we should we we should be

472
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 1: saying shape because yeah, also maybe to not come off

473
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 1: as offensive, I'm non binary and my pronouncers sam they there.

474
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 1: So I feel like I've like I've gone through a

475
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 1: pronoun journey myself when I feel like the appropriate thing

476
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:32,120
Speaker 1: is right, Okay, come at me. If that's not true,

477
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 1: it's okay, I'll learn as well. The mentions are open, right, Okay.

478
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:40,840
Speaker 1: So fake Sebastian sets up this whole. It's actually her

479
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 1: friend Paul is like, yeah, we're gonna make you seem cool.

480
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:48,640
Speaker 1: So then Kia and Yvonne violence friends pretend to throw

481
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 1: themselves at fake Sebastian, and then the guys on the

482
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 1: soccer team are like whoa, Like Sebastians have fucking stood

483
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 1: like he's getting all kinds of women and they just

484
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:05,080
Speaker 1: think that he the'se the cats me out then sorry,

485
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:09,600
Speaker 1: I'm listening speaking of cats though, um, this is not

486
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 1: an intentional segway, but cats do have eight nipples cat

487
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:15,200
Speaker 1: facts with Caitlin. But anyway, so he had to do

488
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:18,600
Speaker 1: it to them, right, So this whole like scam basically works,

489
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:23,360
Speaker 1: and now Duke and his friends are like, Wow, Sebastians

490
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 1: the man. But that whole scene requires fake Sebastian to

491
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:32,720
Speaker 1: heavily objectify these women. To me, it seems like Duke

492
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 1: is like, oh wow, like Sebastian is so cool. It's

493
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:39,080
Speaker 1: like it's a quick cutaway and he just like does

494
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:44,200
Speaker 1: this for a second, like before he dabs, before all

495
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 1: of the hooplack comes, Like he's just like what is this?

496
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 1: Like it's a very quick thing. I watched this movie

497
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:51,920
Speaker 1: so closely so many times, so you think he's but

498
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:54,920
Speaker 1: after after the girl's situation, then they're like, oh, yeah,

499
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 1: make room for the man because that's it. But like

500
00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:00,480
Speaker 1: there's a there's a second. I feel like that's not enough.

501
00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 1: I feel like he's still subscribing to miss shot. Yeah,

502
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 1: because I I'll screenshot it to you. I totally believe you.

503
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 1: I just yeah, that whole scene knows us like is

504
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:15,280
Speaker 1: anyone acting like anything here, like what is happening? Which

505
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:18,160
Speaker 1: is just like, it's really unfortunate that that's the way

506
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:22,240
Speaker 1: that a boy has to fit in is to be

507
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 1: this gross dude that has many girls and insults and

508
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 1: just uses them clearly, and then everyone's like, oh, yeah,

509
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:33,600
Speaker 1: you're a really great guy. It's like why right, And

510
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:37,880
Speaker 1: I know misogyny is alive and well now two thousands

511
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:44,720
Speaker 1: in my experience, really, I'm sorry this somehow escaped, right.

512
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 1: But but the fact that that ends with Viola confronts

513
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:52,960
Speaker 1: Monique because Monique is in this scene too, which is

514
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:55,880
Speaker 1: like the closest call because Monique would know who Sebastian

515
00:32:56,000 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 1: isn't right, because Monique is real Sebastian's girlfriend, and that

516
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:03,600
Speaker 1: character is also all over the place where she is

517
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 1: like a bit but we don't really know why or

518
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 1: know anything about her um and it does seem like

519
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 1: she's perhaps being emotionally abused by Sebastian. But anyways, uh,

520
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:17,520
Speaker 1: she shows up and she's like, where's Sebastian and then

521
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 1: she doesn't recognize that it's not her own boyfriend, and

522
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:24,920
Speaker 1: Viola is like, you're ugly, I'm breaking up with you.

523
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:29,760
Speaker 1: And then byola fully everyone's like, yeah, that hot ladies

524
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 1: you yelled at her, and then it end of scene.

525
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 1: So it's insane. So I think the point here is

526
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 1: that it's unfortunate that we see in in a movie

527
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:48,880
Speaker 1: that has the opportunity to have more challenging of sexist

528
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:53,320
Speaker 1: ideals of like, yeah, a guy is a stud whenever

529
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 1: he has slept with a bunch of women. And that's

530
00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:01,640
Speaker 1: the approach that they use for sebad Question to seem

531
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 1: cooler to her peers. But that could have been an

532
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 1: opportunity for Viola to be like, no, I'm not going

533
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 1: to like subscribe to this, I'm gonna like fine. I mean,

534
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:15,200
Speaker 1: I get it. It's it was an easy choice and

535
00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:18,880
Speaker 1: it worked, But I don't know, Like, I just have

536
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:23,040
Speaker 1: higher hopes than is reasonable to expect out of a

537
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 1: movie from two thousand and six. So it's just it's

538
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:27,760
Speaker 1: kind of a bummer that that's the scene that plays

539
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 1: out to get Viola as Sebastian to be accepted by

540
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:35,879
Speaker 1: her peers, but could also be seen as a very

541
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 1: heightened version of what would be realistic because they like,

542
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:43,880
Speaker 1: for the second argument, the group of guys, the soccer

543
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:50,600
Speaker 1: dudes are like interpreting Sebastian's masculinity is abnormal, that he's

544
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:55,960
Speaker 1: like a weird dude, because Viola s Sebastian is acting

545
00:34:56,120 --> 00:35:00,760
Speaker 1: very weird like and it is acting like crazy person,

546
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:04,239
Speaker 1: and you know that is like the example of the opposite,

547
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:07,840
Speaker 1: like if you can't beat them, join them, where Biola

548
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:11,800
Speaker 1: is playing to what they do understand to be masculinity

549
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:14,200
Speaker 1: in order for them to be like, well, yeah, he's

550
00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:16,399
Speaker 1: a freak, but he folks like that is all that

551
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:20,320
Speaker 1: that is trying to accomplish and it's successful. Um yeah,

552
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:22,759
Speaker 1: it's I don't really know where I land on it,

553
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:26,399
Speaker 1: because it's also a very funny scene and it's like, well,

554
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:29,239
Speaker 1: the fact that except for mooning, the moaning thing made

555
00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:33,360
Speaker 1: me feel bad for her, but Kia and and Ivan

556
00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 1: are like so in on it that it's like fun

557
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:39,440
Speaker 1: for them, and it's like you don't have to feel guilty,

558
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:41,880
Speaker 1: which is maybe like a horrible loophole, is like you

559
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:45,120
Speaker 1: don't have to feel guilty watching these women be kind

560
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:48,800
Speaker 1: of like yelled at and groped because it's their friend.

561
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 1: But like, but that is so funny. I don't know. Yeah,

562
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:55,360
Speaker 1: it's it's complicated. Well, let's take a quick break and

563
00:35:55,400 --> 00:36:03,960
Speaker 1: then we'll be back to talk more. Okay, and we're back,

564
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 1: all right, So the next thing I wanted to talk

565
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:12,360
Speaker 1: about is God, there's so much Okay, really quickly. I

566
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:17,799
Speaker 1: really like that Olivia likes who she thinks of Sebastian

567
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:23,480
Speaker 1: because Violet as Sebastian is sensitive and isn't this like

568
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 1: big tough, macho guy. And that's like the main thing

569
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:32,520
Speaker 1: that appeals to Olivia about Sebastian. Relatable, yes tbh, But y'alla,

570
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 1: Sebastian pretty good looking kids, I hear it. Yeah, cute

571
00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:42,520
Speaker 1: and sweet and yeah, like not threatening and not like

572
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:45,960
Speaker 1: just like carrying around a bunch of like machismo everywhere.

573
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:51,239
Speaker 1: That's how I describe myself. Mugging to speak to what

574
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:54,359
Speaker 1: you texted me earlier on Caitlin. Mugging maybe a few

575
00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:56,279
Speaker 1: too many times. So the one where it's like, is

576
00:36:56,320 --> 00:37:02,040
Speaker 1: this a feature film? Maybe, yeah, Amanda Bind's mugs a

577
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:05,680
Speaker 1: whole lot, but like also works, it works for me.

578
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:12,120
Speaker 1: And then Viola and Olivia have a conversation whenever Violet

579
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:15,040
Speaker 1: as Sebastian is trying to get Olivia to date Duke

580
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:17,720
Speaker 1: and she's like, no, Like, he just seems like another

581
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:20,200
Speaker 1: one of these dumb jocks that you know wants to

582
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 1: hook up with a girl so that you know, you

583
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:25,879
Speaker 1: can tell us friends about it. But we learn that

584
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 1: that isn't true about Duke, and then that's one of

585
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:33,360
Speaker 1: the main reasons that Viola is into him then because

586
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:36,799
Speaker 1: they have these like long discussions like what Duke thinks

587
00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:39,279
Speaker 1: is like a man on man pow wow, but what

588
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:43,840
Speaker 1: he doesn't know is Sebastian's real identity. But yeah, I

589
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:47,680
Speaker 1: like that in many cases in this movie, and not

590
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:49,720
Speaker 1: all the time, because we just talked about the times

591
00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:54,360
Speaker 1: that this doesn't happen. But sexist behavior is punished and

592
00:37:54,760 --> 00:38:04,319
Speaker 1: the opposite of sexist behavior behavior behavior is appreciated and rewarded,

593
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:08,160
Speaker 1: I suppose. So that's nice because in a lot of

594
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:11,560
Speaker 1: movies like this where let's go back to like Ten

595
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:14,200
Speaker 1: Things I Hate about You. For example, in that movie,

596
00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 1: it's like, Okay, we've got a feminist, headstrong character, but

597
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:21,719
Speaker 1: those qualities are seen to be very shrewish, and so

598
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:24,440
Speaker 1: no one likes her because of that, and then the

599
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:27,839
Speaker 1: guy lies to her throughout the entire movie, and then

600
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:30,759
Speaker 1: he is rewarded even though he's been behaving badly. I'll

601
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:34,040
Speaker 1: say it again, Uh, ten Things I Hate about you.

602
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:36,799
Speaker 1: It's a stinker. I know everyone's attached to it, but

603
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 1: as someone new to the ten Things I Hate about You,

604
00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:44,760
Speaker 1: fold it's stinker. Well that's a boo from Jamie. Okay, well,

605
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:47,799
Speaker 1: I get it. It's uh. It does not handle a

606
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:54,640
Speaker 1: lot of things well at all. Don boo boo boo boo. Alright,

607
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:56,759
Speaker 1: I feel like you were singing a different tune a

608
00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 1: few episodes ago when we talked about it. I feel

609
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:02,080
Speaker 1: like you said you liked the movie. Can I watched

610
00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:04,839
Speaker 1: it again and I liked it even less the second

611
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 1: Oh interesting, Yeah, that'll happen anyway. So back to she's

612
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:15,400
Speaker 1: almost caught it. She's all that okay, also a good one. Yeah, well, sticker.

613
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:22,320
Speaker 1: But and another example of a movie where bad behavior

614
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:26,920
Speaker 1: in misogyny is not punished and is instead rewarded. The

615
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:29,120
Speaker 1: only thing that you need to do to get a

616
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:32,400
Speaker 1: boyfriend has changed literally everything about you. Yeah, that's what

617
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:36,360
Speaker 1: I have to do up, dang it. So anyway, I

618
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:40,279
Speaker 1: like how this movie handles a lot of things, and

619
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:43,120
Speaker 1: that the whole movie is like a quest for a

620
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:46,399
Speaker 1: woman to prove that she is as capable as men

621
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:50,839
Speaker 1: and then succeeds in achieving that. But there are more

622
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 1: problems here. They are For example, there are quite a

623
00:39:56,080 --> 00:40:02,440
Speaker 1: few no homo moments. It's usually between Duke and Viola

624
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:06,360
Speaker 1: as Sebastian, So for most of the movie Duke thinks

625
00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:12,759
Speaker 1: that Sebastian is a ciss het man, But then there

626
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 1: are moments where Sebastian will like linger too long on

627
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:19,800
Speaker 1: a hug or be like you're not going to talking

628
00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:22,399
Speaker 1: to girls? How can that be? You're hot? And then

629
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:27,799
Speaker 1: Duke always responds, well discussed, what yeah? And then there's

630
00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:30,839
Speaker 1: like a moment where the tarantula, the spider the eight

631
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:35,440
Speaker 1: legged female or spider facts with Caitlin feminist icon Melvolio

632
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:39,320
Speaker 1: shows up in their dorm room and then they both

633
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:42,320
Speaker 1: scream and get on the bed and they're like holding

634
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 1: each other and then then when which starts as a

635
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 1: good moment and then it's kind of sold out. Yeah,

636
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:49,560
Speaker 1: so Duke's are like, oh gross, and don't ever do

637
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:53,319
Speaker 1: that girl voice again. That freaked me out. So why

638
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:56,040
Speaker 1: can't they does both be afraid of the Spider? Also,

639
00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:58,240
Speaker 1: why don't they sit down and listen to what Melvolio

640
00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:01,600
Speaker 1: has to say because he's read the feminine mystique and

641
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:03,239
Speaker 1: he has a lot of really good points he'd like

642
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:06,399
Speaker 1: to make, and he's a feminist iChon. And I think

643
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:08,000
Speaker 1: that there's a direction of this movie where if they

644
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:10,719
Speaker 1: just sat down and had discourse with the Spider, you know,

645
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:13,320
Speaker 1: he's would have been a different Yeah, we should invite

646
00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:15,840
Speaker 1: the Spider on the podcast to see what was a

647
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:17,959
Speaker 1: queer icon as well. I mean this is like I've

648
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:24,359
Speaker 1: had great talks with Amalia anyways. So and then during

649
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 1: the soccer game at the end whenever Viola is like

650
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:32,640
Speaker 1: I love you, Duke, and he's like what this is weird?

651
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:36,000
Speaker 1: And Viola was like, I'm Viola, I kissed you and

652
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:39,279
Speaker 1: he's like, oh, girls, no you didn't, because he again

653
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:43,000
Speaker 1: still thinks that Sebastian is a boy. So there's these

654
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:48,239
Speaker 1: different moments that like I it is very like to that.

655
00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:51,520
Speaker 1: I mean, it still happens now, but like two thousands queer,

656
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:56,440
Speaker 1: panicky moments, right that didn't need to be there, And

657
00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:59,240
Speaker 1: you could argue, oh, well, you know, it's in line

658
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:03,799
Speaker 1: with character. But they also had an opportunity to subvert

659
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:08,960
Speaker 1: that trope of casual homophobia in movies and they didn't.

660
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:11,960
Speaker 1: So one of the things I liked best about this

661
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:16,800
Speaker 1: movie is that for the first half of the Big Game,

662
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:19,920
Speaker 1: which why I don't all movie, then with the Big Game,

663
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:24,400
Speaker 1: uh so they're at a big game and the first

664
00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:28,799
Speaker 1: half is just like real Sebastian being chaotic and it's like, yes,

665
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:31,480
Speaker 1: I am soccer, Now here's my dick, and you're just like,

666
00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:34,960
Speaker 1: what is happening? And then but the fact that Viola

667
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:39,000
Speaker 1: gets to finish the game as herself and playing with

668
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:43,480
Speaker 1: her hair down, not in a ponytail. That's unrealistic. But

669
00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:46,720
Speaker 1: I I was going to ask you that, okay, But

670
00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:48,439
Speaker 1: but the fact that she gets to finish the game

671
00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:52,840
Speaker 1: as herself with total acceptance of her team and her coach,

672
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:56,239
Speaker 1: I thought was so great. I didn't think that that

673
00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:58,680
Speaker 1: was going to happen. Yeah, I thought she was going

674
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:01,560
Speaker 1: to finish the game as sebast That is really cool.

675
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:05,120
Speaker 1: And then we see that moment where she reveals her

676
00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:09,319
Speaker 1: true identity. She's like, I'm Viola. I played on the

677
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:13,439
Speaker 1: team to you know, prove this point. And then the

678
00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:16,239
Speaker 1: coach of the opposing team is like, girls can't play

679
00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:18,440
Speaker 1: in this league, and he's he's the same guy at

680
00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:22,839
Speaker 1: the beginning who was like, girls are scientifically bullshit, right exactly,

681
00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 1: And then we get the great line read from coach

682
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:35,319
Speaker 1: what is it dinkly away on what manual here? We

683
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:40,520
Speaker 1: don't discriminate based on gender? Beautiful, Thank you very much.

684
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:45,040
Speaker 1: That's my sad. So my blood pressure is like rising

685
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:50,800
Speaker 1: with each beautiful. So, like you said, Jimmy, the team

686
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:53,520
Speaker 1: at all, area, the coach, they're all on board to

687
00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:57,440
Speaker 1: have Viola play as herself. She gets the goal, she

688
00:43:57,480 --> 00:43:59,799
Speaker 1: gets the goal, she scores the game winning goal, there

689
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:02,680
Speaker 1: by proving she set out to prove. Here's here's a

690
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:07,080
Speaker 1: question the fact that and these are like small gripes

691
00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:09,759
Speaker 1: with with a movie that does so much right, but um,

692
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:13,520
Speaker 1: justin her ex One of the like things we know

693
00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:16,600
Speaker 1: about him is that Channing Tatum made him cry during

694
00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:20,879
Speaker 1: a soccer game. And that is like, you know, not masculine.

695
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:23,560
Speaker 1: And then at the end Viola makes him cry. But

696
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:26,680
Speaker 1: I still feel like it's like kind of that for

697
00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:30,360
Speaker 1: all of Justin's toxic masculinity is played for a laugh

698
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:32,160
Speaker 1: in a way that I was like, a man, that's

699
00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:35,000
Speaker 1: they missed that one of like this boy crying looks

700
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:38,080
Speaker 1: like so fucking dumb. And then when they talk about

701
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:41,040
Speaker 1: it before the time that Duke makes him cry in

702
00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:43,840
Speaker 1: an earlier game, Yeah, it's all like, I mean that,

703
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:47,560
Speaker 1: what a pussy cry? And then they address him about

704
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:51,719
Speaker 1: it in person and he's like or something like we're

705
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:57,560
Speaker 1: going to do drowned me in your tears. In a

706
00:44:57,600 --> 00:45:02,560
Speaker 1: movie that at least attempt to celebrate like male sensitivity,

707
00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:06,080
Speaker 1: it also does that mistakes were made. Mistakes were made,

708
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:11,520
Speaker 1: and there's more. There's that. There's also the mistake of

709
00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:16,520
Speaker 1: if the situation was presented to the headmaster that a

710
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:20,760
Speaker 1: person was trying to pull off being the opposite gender,

711
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:23,879
Speaker 1: and they decided to out them during this big old

712
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:28,319
Speaker 1: soccer game, a big game with with the loudspeaker megaphone,

713
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:32,239
Speaker 1: Why would that? Why is that the choice? Right? There's

714
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:34,840
Speaker 1: a lot of the big game mistakes, Like there's a

715
00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:39,200
Speaker 1: big bird act kind of for sure a little bit

716
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:44,799
Speaker 1: because for all they know, this Sebastian person is trans

717
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:48,720
Speaker 1: and then for yeah, for them to be like he's

718
00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 1: actually a girl and the girl and then he pulls

719
00:45:56,239 --> 00:45:59,920
Speaker 1: down his pants, everyone sees his penis. Unice is having

720
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:04,319
Speaker 1: a wonderful time. It has a conniption, even though I'm

721
00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:07,960
Speaker 1: pretty sure she is facing his butt and not his

722
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:14,320
Speaker 1: but anyways, whatever is action until now she's got like Toby,

723
00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:18,720
Speaker 1: who's like a cutie to he's cute, he's cute. Tricks.

724
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:23,960
Speaker 1: But yeah, Sammy, to your point, not only would that

725
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:28,360
Speaker 1: be very problematic for them to out Sebastian because they

726
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:30,920
Speaker 1: don't they don't know what the circumstances are. Right. The

727
00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:33,840
Speaker 1: other thing that this movie subscribes to is the idea

728
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:37,000
Speaker 1: that if you have a penis, you're a man, and

729
00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:42,239
Speaker 1: if you have breasts, you are a woman. She's the man, right,

730
00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:48,080
Speaker 1: super cisnormative because both fake and real Sebastian to prove

731
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:51,480
Speaker 1: that they are the gender that they identify as they reveal,

732
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:58,920
Speaker 1: you know, bathing suit parts will say mom, stop, wow,

733
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:04,399
Speaker 1: cut that out. Hope I'm keeping it. So yeah, it's

734
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:09,320
Speaker 1: just subscribing to this idea that your genitals determine your gender,

735
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:14,480
Speaker 1: which we know is false. And it's the second Shakespeare

736
00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:18,480
Speaker 1: adaptation from this pair of screenwriters that has a character

737
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:22,400
Speaker 1: flashing their boobs, which it's like, get a new trick,

738
00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:26,640
Speaker 1: Kirsten and Karen. Um and that's all. This movie was

739
00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:32,080
Speaker 1: also co written by you and Lesley, by Malfolio, the

740
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:37,600
Speaker 1: famous spiders that kind of louder voice in the writers room. Um, no,

741
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:41,920
Speaker 1: by you and Leslie, although Jamie you you would probably

742
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:47,359
Speaker 1: call him but anyway, but that's neither here nor there.

743
00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:51,000
Speaker 1: So yeah, another mistake that this movie makes is the

744
00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:56,640
Speaker 1: sith normative bullshit of your genitals determining your gender. The

745
00:47:56,680 --> 00:48:01,320
Speaker 1: only points I'll give that because it's just like not necessary.

746
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:04,759
Speaker 1: And also this movie was listed for containing nudity, which

747
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:08,479
Speaker 1: it doesn't know either way. The only thing, the only

748
00:48:08,520 --> 00:48:11,839
Speaker 1: improvement that makes upon ten things I Hate about you

749
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:15,600
Speaker 1: as it leaves you know, Sebastian shows his parts and

750
00:48:15,719 --> 00:48:19,840
Speaker 1: Viola shows her parts as opposed to just a titty flash,

751
00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:23,000
Speaker 1: but I say, we we we we do away with

752
00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:26,400
Speaker 1: it in that context all together exactly. And then David

753
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:31,239
Speaker 1: Kross as the Headmaster who participates in a number of

754
00:48:31,719 --> 00:48:36,040
Speaker 1: very funny visual jokes where throughout the movie he is

755
00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:39,000
Speaker 1: handing out food in the cafeteria. He comes in with

756
00:48:39,040 --> 00:48:41,680
Speaker 1: a plunger. At one point he's like snipping a shrub.

757
00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:44,919
Speaker 1: He's like cleaning the windows. He just does all. He's

758
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:47,040
Speaker 1: the headmaster, but he he's so involved in his school.

759
00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:50,719
Speaker 1: He does it all anyway. Very funny, he says, as

760
00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:55,239
Speaker 1: he's like outing Sebastian as a girl, he says, you know,

761
00:48:55,680 --> 00:49:00,520
Speaker 1: actually he's been impersonating his own sister Viola for reasons

762
00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:04,839
Speaker 1: which will become very clear after extensive psychoanalysis, kind of

763
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:09,480
Speaker 1: implying that if you present as a different gender from

764
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:11,759
Speaker 1: the one that you were assigned at birth, you need

765
00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:18,239
Speaker 1: psycho analysis. Something's wrong with you psychologically. Um so bad, bad,

766
00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:21,200
Speaker 1: bad bad. He does have a good I feel like

767
00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:24,080
Speaker 1: it was kind of a good moment when he's talking

768
00:49:24,120 --> 00:49:29,000
Speaker 1: to what's what's the squirrely bad guy's name, Malcolm. Yeah.

769
00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:33,440
Speaker 1: When Malcolm is talking to the headmaster and Viola as

770
00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:37,320
Speaker 1: fashion passes by, talking in normal Viola voice about wearing

771
00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:39,720
Speaker 1: a dress and high heels, there is a moment where

772
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:42,360
Speaker 1: it could have been where Malcolm is just like, that's weird.

773
00:49:42,600 --> 00:49:44,640
Speaker 1: But then the Headmaster is just like, have you ever

774
00:49:44,719 --> 00:49:47,640
Speaker 1: tried running away? Running down? Yeah? I was like, well,

775
00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:50,360
Speaker 1: that's that's that that that was a good opportunity to

776
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:53,760
Speaker 1: not be a dick, and he wasn't. Yeah. And also

777
00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:56,919
Speaker 1: what Violen is saying on the phone is great. Yeah.

778
00:49:57,000 --> 00:50:02,480
Speaker 1: Feminist icon says, yeah, heels were invented by men to

779
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:05,320
Speaker 1: make women's butts look smaller and to make it harder

780
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:07,719
Speaker 1: for them to run away, which is something I've been

781
00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:11,399
Speaker 1: saying for decades. So thank you for let me look

782
00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:15,640
Speaker 1: at your stiletto heels. Wow, I played soccer in them

783
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:21,560
Speaker 1: today and you were not slowed at all. And the

784
00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:26,160
Speaker 1: reason she's talking about heels is because of the debutante

785
00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:29,560
Speaker 1: ball and I have a lot to say about this. Okay.

786
00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:32,399
Speaker 1: So in the movie, Viola's mom wants her to be

787
00:50:32,520 --> 00:50:35,880
Speaker 1: a debutante, wants her to be a lot more feminine.

788
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:39,520
Speaker 1: Isn't thrilled with the whole soccer playing thing reminiscent of

789
00:50:39,880 --> 00:50:43,759
Speaker 1: Kira Knightley's mom's character and bend it like Beckham where

790
00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:47,600
Speaker 1: she's like, oh, like soccer's growths and you should wear dresses.

791
00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:51,760
Speaker 1: So for most of the movie, Viola rejects the idea

792
00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:55,600
Speaker 1: of needing to present as super feminine, and that ranges

793
00:50:55,719 --> 00:51:01,160
Speaker 1: from wearing sporty, pretty gender neutral clothing, not wanting to

794
00:51:01,200 --> 00:51:05,400
Speaker 1: be a debutante and these like frilly gowns, and then

795
00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:08,560
Speaker 1: that ranges all the way to literally dressing as a boy.

796
00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:11,360
Speaker 1: So I think it's cool that she is, like she

797
00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:15,120
Speaker 1: spends the entire movie rejecting these sort of gender norms.

798
00:51:15,560 --> 00:51:18,000
Speaker 1: That is to say, if you want to present that way,

799
00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:22,000
Speaker 1: that's fine, and that's anyone's choice, but society's expectation has

800
00:51:22,239 --> 00:51:26,240
Speaker 1: long been the more feminine a woman presents, the better,

801
00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:31,680
Speaker 1: which is unfair and unrealistic and yeah, not great. But

802
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:35,200
Speaker 1: at the end of the movie, after Viola has spent

803
00:51:35,239 --> 00:51:38,800
Speaker 1: all this time, you know, rejecting these norms of needing

804
00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:41,759
Speaker 1: to present a super feminine, then she goes to the

805
00:51:41,800 --> 00:51:47,200
Speaker 1: debutante ball. She wears the gown she presents as super feminine,

806
00:51:47,560 --> 00:51:51,399
Speaker 1: and the idea of women expecting to present as feminine,

807
00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:55,399
Speaker 1: men expecting to present as masculine, there being no room

808
00:51:55,520 --> 00:51:59,440
Speaker 1: for anyone to fall anywhere else on the spectrum. It

809
00:51:59,440 --> 00:52:03,279
Speaker 1: would have been better if she know showed the ball. Yeah,

810
00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:06,120
Speaker 1: because those like rigid gender norms that have been challenged

811
00:52:06,160 --> 00:52:09,960
Speaker 1: throughout the movie go back to like being intact. I

812
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:11,480
Speaker 1: feel like a lot of the statements that are made

813
00:52:11,480 --> 00:52:14,600
Speaker 1: about gender throughout the movie feel like they're almost kind

814
00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:17,680
Speaker 1: of undone by this ballroom scene. I mean not really,

815
00:52:17,680 --> 00:52:19,880
Speaker 1: but it's just like, why did this movie have to

816
00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:23,960
Speaker 1: end with this ball My theory is that the trope

817
00:52:23,960 --> 00:52:26,360
Speaker 1: that I do not like of like high school movies

818
00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:29,799
Speaker 1: always ending in prom or like a spring formal. It

819
00:52:29,840 --> 00:52:32,280
Speaker 1: doesn't make sense for this movie to end in prom

820
00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:36,520
Speaker 1: because it happens two weeks into the false school year. Also,

821
00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:39,640
Speaker 1: we were just at a big game, we had the

822
00:52:39,760 --> 00:52:43,480
Speaker 1: high school at the moment. Yeah, So for then there

823
00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:47,680
Speaker 1: to be another basically prom event at the end of

824
00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:53,040
Speaker 1: the movie just feels unneeded and it like reverts back

825
00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:56,600
Speaker 1: to all these like weird, rigid gender norms that the

826
00:52:56,640 --> 00:52:59,799
Speaker 1: idea of, like being a debutante really in stills. So

827
00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:04,839
Speaker 1: I didn't like that. I had something I wanted to

828
00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:10,520
Speaker 1: discuss really quickly about the reception this movie received when

829
00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:15,560
Speaker 1: it was originally released. This movie has a forty three

830
00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:21,400
Speaker 1: percent on Rotten Tomatoes. I'm not surprised, which right, but

831
00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:24,160
Speaker 1: not because as we have been discussing, it is a

832
00:53:24,160 --> 00:53:29,480
Speaker 1: well written movie. There's not that I mean considering the

833
00:53:29,480 --> 00:53:32,680
Speaker 1: fact that it's a successful, well done Shakespeare adaptation, which

834
00:53:32,719 --> 00:53:36,600
Speaker 1: is so hard to do, and the characters are explored

835
00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:38,959
Speaker 1: and well realized for the most part, with this movie

836
00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:43,280
Speaker 1: didn't fare very well. And this goes back to something

837
00:53:43,320 --> 00:53:47,839
Speaker 1: that we recently found out. The Annenberg Inclusion Initiative did

838
00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:52,560
Speaker 1: a study on film criticism and this year, and I

839
00:53:52,600 --> 00:53:54,759
Speaker 1: can't imagine how much worse this issue was in two

840
00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:58,880
Speaker 1: thousand and six, of almost sixty movie reviews written between

841
00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:05,320
Speaker 1: and teen s were written by men were written by women.

842
00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:08,800
Speaker 1: Uh So in film criticism there is a massive gap

843
00:54:08,880 --> 00:54:12,440
Speaker 1: and who decides what's good and and and that informs

844
00:54:12,719 --> 00:54:15,600
Speaker 1: what people see a lot of the time. And in

845
00:54:15,719 --> 00:54:19,120
Speaker 1: two thousand's and six, I have to assume this issue

846
00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:22,719
Speaker 1: was even worse and and and that is telling in

847
00:54:22,960 --> 00:54:26,640
Speaker 1: the way that this movie was reviewed. There was one

848
00:54:26,880 --> 00:54:31,560
Speaker 1: stuck out to me as particularly annoying. Where is it?

849
00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:36,960
Speaker 1: It was from not Ebert what's his name? But there

850
00:54:37,000 --> 00:54:39,360
Speaker 1: are a lot of the criticism of this movie was

851
00:54:39,400 --> 00:54:43,480
Speaker 1: focused on that Amanda Binds did not play a man convincingly,

852
00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:48,759
Speaker 1: which betray is far more about the writer than the movie,

853
00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:52,840
Speaker 1: because that just is, you know, evidence of how rigid

854
00:54:52,880 --> 00:54:55,719
Speaker 1: their view of masculinity is. Joel Siegel, in a lame

855
00:54:55,760 --> 00:54:58,360
Speaker 1: attempt to amuse older teens, She's the Man, manages to

856
00:54:58,400 --> 00:55:00,799
Speaker 1: alienate the parents of the younger one with tampon and

857
00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:05,680
Speaker 1: gender jokes. Richard Roper Mere words cannot convey how awful

858
00:55:05,719 --> 00:55:11,400
Speaker 1: Binds is at playing a girl playing a boy. Uh So,

859
00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:15,200
Speaker 1: I mean, and and this movie was financially successful, had

860
00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:18,360
Speaker 1: a budget of twenty million dollars, made uh fifty seven

861
00:55:18,360 --> 00:55:21,200
Speaker 1: million dollars at the box office. But you have to

862
00:55:21,400 --> 00:55:24,560
Speaker 1: think if it were better reviewed or reviewed by a

863
00:55:24,600 --> 00:55:28,600
Speaker 1: more diverse pool of people, that the reception of it

864
00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:32,919
Speaker 1: would have been quite different, and it wouldn't have a

865
00:55:33,480 --> 00:55:36,560
Speaker 1: rotten tomato so much lower than it deserves, I know.

866
00:55:38,320 --> 00:55:40,200
Speaker 1: And then think about the I mean, but like also

867
00:55:40,440 --> 00:55:43,319
Speaker 1: think about the movies that we've done, and I mean,

868
00:55:43,560 --> 00:55:46,959
Speaker 1: for example, Devil's Advocate, Let's see what Love actually has

869
00:55:47,320 --> 00:55:50,799
Speaker 1: on rotten tomatoes, a movie that performs horrifically bad with

870
00:55:50,920 --> 00:55:55,840
Speaker 1: gender issues, uh actually has sixty Um So there there

871
00:55:55,840 --> 00:56:02,520
Speaker 1: are movies that are extremely misinformed, border unhateful towards gender

872
00:56:02,560 --> 00:56:06,320
Speaker 1: and gender roles that are considered classics versus this movie

873
00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:10,000
Speaker 1: that for the most part, performs very well across the board,

874
00:56:10,120 --> 00:56:13,720
Speaker 1: and it was sort of at the time not quite panned,

875
00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:17,560
Speaker 1: but not received very well. Yeah, yeah, that's so upsetting.

876
00:56:18,680 --> 00:56:22,520
Speaker 1: So this would be a reminder to our listeners that

877
00:56:22,600 --> 00:56:26,760
Speaker 1: if you're reading a review of a movie that deals

878
00:56:26,840 --> 00:56:31,480
Speaker 1: with issues like this, or for instance, if you're reading

879
00:56:31,760 --> 00:56:36,720
Speaker 1: a white writer reviewing a movie with a diverse cast

880
00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:39,960
Speaker 1: and directed by someone other than someone exactly like them,

881
00:56:40,680 --> 00:56:43,239
Speaker 1: take that criticism with a grain salt, because they may

882
00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:48,440
Speaker 1: not actually know what they are talking about. I wanted

883
00:56:48,480 --> 00:56:52,480
Speaker 1: to talk a little bit about Unice. She is the

884
00:56:53,239 --> 00:56:59,120
Speaker 1: not I just Unice is great. I just I think well,

885
00:56:59,160 --> 00:57:05,080
Speaker 1: like she moon walks into the friend steps that was

886
00:57:05,200 --> 00:57:08,320
Speaker 1: her choice, like a lot of I read. David Cross

887
00:57:08,360 --> 00:57:11,320
Speaker 1: improvised a lot of his stuff. Amanda Bindes also improvised

888
00:57:11,360 --> 00:57:19,000
Speaker 1: a lot, and then Unice didn't. Un who plays unsh

889
00:57:19,120 --> 00:57:20,720
Speaker 1: I don't know her name, but she has some of

890
00:57:20,720 --> 00:57:23,680
Speaker 1: the most famous person in the whole world and act

891
00:57:23,720 --> 00:57:28,320
Speaker 1: just named Emily Perkins, who has since been Oh she's

892
00:57:28,400 --> 00:57:32,720
Speaker 1: the receptionist in Juno. Oh, the one who's like, whoa,

893
00:57:32,920 --> 00:57:40,200
Speaker 1: there are condom flavors. Whoa and that is what pretty much. Well,

894
00:57:40,240 --> 00:57:42,080
Speaker 1: she's great in this So the thing I want to

895
00:57:42,120 --> 00:57:45,600
Speaker 1: say about her is that she's also in this movie.

896
00:57:46,040 --> 00:57:50,960
Speaker 1: She's dirty, yes, a lot of things. Um Well, the

897
00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:54,280
Speaker 1: thing I want to say about her is that this movie,

898
00:57:54,640 --> 00:57:58,320
Speaker 1: and so many movies, take a character who is not

899
00:57:58,600 --> 00:58:03,200
Speaker 1: conventionally attractive by Western beauty standards, and sometimes it's something

900
00:58:03,200 --> 00:58:05,720
Speaker 1: as simple as she's wearing glasses. In this case, she's

901
00:58:05,720 --> 00:58:09,560
Speaker 1: got glasses and braces and some headgear, but the movie

902
00:58:09,600 --> 00:58:12,360
Speaker 1: will like turn her into a punching bag. Basically, it's like,

903
00:58:12,440 --> 00:58:16,880
Speaker 1: look at this disgusting woman, just like makes a joke

904
00:58:16,960 --> 00:58:19,080
Speaker 1: out of the whole thing, when in reality we should

905
00:58:19,080 --> 00:58:23,479
Speaker 1: be critical of her for being thirty and in high school. Also,

906
00:58:23,600 --> 00:58:28,440
Speaker 1: Channing Tatum this Sea, but yeah, I don't like that

907
00:58:29,080 --> 00:58:33,920
Speaker 1: because pretty much everyone else in this movie is conventionally attractive.

908
00:58:34,440 --> 00:58:37,000
Speaker 1: So to take like the one character who the movie

909
00:58:37,040 --> 00:58:40,919
Speaker 1: has made to seem not as conventionally attractive and then

910
00:58:40,920 --> 00:58:43,680
Speaker 1: put her in scenarios where like she's on a date

911
00:58:43,680 --> 00:58:47,080
Speaker 1: with someone, or you know, like Channing Tatum has to

912
00:58:47,080 --> 00:58:49,200
Speaker 1: talk to her, it's always like, oh, I can't believe

913
00:58:49,240 --> 00:58:53,360
Speaker 1: I'm stuck talking to this super lazy I think this

914
00:58:53,400 --> 00:58:57,400
Speaker 1: falls into the same bucket of lazy writing that like

915
00:58:57,520 --> 00:59:02,040
Speaker 1: Liz Lemon would fall into of Like, here's a woman who,

916
00:59:02,080 --> 00:59:04,680
Speaker 1: if you took this weird prop off of her would

917
00:59:04,720 --> 00:59:08,840
Speaker 1: look completely like conventionally attractive, but we're just going to

918
00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:11,560
Speaker 1: have everyone in the movie ship on her and call

919
00:59:11,640 --> 00:59:14,240
Speaker 1: her not hot to distract from the fact that that

920
00:59:14,440 --> 00:59:17,280
Speaker 1: is not actually the case. And like it seems like

921
00:59:17,320 --> 00:59:20,120
Speaker 1: a more egregious version of like the Lis Lemon issue

922
00:59:20,200 --> 00:59:24,120
Speaker 1: of like down to the like I like cheese, like

923
00:59:24,600 --> 00:59:28,400
Speaker 1: shot up like funk off. Anyways, that's a funny line

924
00:59:28,400 --> 00:59:32,080
Speaker 1: though almost more than any other animal byproduct. I could

925
00:59:32,120 --> 00:59:37,800
Speaker 1: like that. And then I'm like, what if Channing Tatum

926
00:59:37,880 --> 00:59:43,200
Speaker 1: is like tell me more instead of being please? Right, Yeah,

927
00:59:43,240 --> 00:59:45,240
Speaker 1: so I didn't care for that. That happens a lot.

928
00:59:45,280 --> 00:59:49,040
Speaker 1: I feel like that happens with like Aquafina's character her

929
00:59:49,120 --> 00:59:53,720
Speaker 1: brother in Yeah Crazy Rich Asians, where like he's not

930
00:59:55,000 --> 01:00:00,080
Speaker 1: conventionally sorry, um, he is not as conventionally attractive. Oh,

931
01:00:00,200 --> 01:00:05,600
Speaker 1: he's like the weirdo creepo guy. When like it's I

932
01:00:05,640 --> 01:00:09,160
Speaker 1: hate these like tropes that it's a microaggression. Yeah, and

933
01:00:09,320 --> 01:00:12,680
Speaker 1: movies need to stop doing that. Yeah, but also, I

934
01:00:12,680 --> 01:00:15,880
Speaker 1: mean everything Units does I'm on board for. It's just

935
01:00:15,920 --> 01:00:20,520
Speaker 1: the way the movie treats are exactly. That is not fair, right, right, right, exactly.

936
01:00:21,200 --> 01:00:24,880
Speaker 1: There's a there's a weird moment. I don't have any

937
01:00:24,920 --> 01:00:28,000
Speaker 1: particular view of it, but at the end, it's almost

938
01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:32,480
Speaker 1: like they accidentally did a little parent trap. Uh where

939
01:00:32,960 --> 01:00:35,280
Speaker 1: the parents are? You know, it's clear they've been divorced

940
01:00:35,280 --> 01:00:37,000
Speaker 1: for a while. That seems to be why no one

941
01:00:37,080 --> 01:00:39,800
Speaker 1: notices that their teenage daughter hasn't gone to school for

942
01:00:39,800 --> 01:00:43,640
Speaker 1: two weeks. But that the end, Viola is like, well,

943
01:00:43,640 --> 01:00:47,840
Speaker 1: why don't we all discuss this issue over dinner tomorrow

944
01:00:47,960 --> 01:00:50,160
Speaker 1: all four of us and the parents are and the

945
01:00:50,200 --> 01:00:53,320
Speaker 1: parents are like, yeah, can I have your number? What's

946
01:00:53,320 --> 01:00:57,080
Speaker 1: your email address? It was like, it's literally Quate and

947
01:00:57,200 --> 01:01:03,640
Speaker 1: Richardson over here. It's that's true. A couple of fun

948
01:01:03,680 --> 01:01:06,840
Speaker 1: little things I wanted to mention. Channing Tatum is wearing

949
01:01:07,040 --> 01:01:10,960
Speaker 1: a Duccatti jacket for part of the movie. Um, he's

950
01:01:10,960 --> 01:01:13,400
Speaker 1: a bad boyfriend life, he's a bad boy. He's not

951
01:01:13,560 --> 01:01:17,120
Speaker 1: like the others. If anyone out there is keeping track

952
01:01:17,160 --> 01:01:21,160
Speaker 1: of my name anagrams, which you might be familiar with

953
01:01:21,240 --> 01:01:24,320
Speaker 1: if you've listened to a few recent episodes that I

954
01:01:24,320 --> 01:01:28,440
Speaker 1: guessed on of the Daily Zeitgeist. I'm Latin dancer U

955
01:01:28,440 --> 01:01:32,920
Speaker 1: t I. I am a cat turd inline Caitlin Durante

956
01:01:33,080 --> 01:01:41,720
Speaker 1: also anagrams to internal Duccatti. So that's a good So

957
01:01:41,880 --> 01:01:45,640
Speaker 1: watch out. I have I have one more observation about

958
01:01:45,720 --> 01:01:48,400
Speaker 1: parents that I should have said while you were talking

959
01:01:48,440 --> 01:01:52,640
Speaker 1: about the debutant Paul, but then I didn't because I'm

960
01:01:52,720 --> 01:01:56,600
Speaker 1: flawed too. But I think that that was yet another

961
01:01:56,720 --> 01:02:00,959
Speaker 1: missed opportunity that this movie has to have some sort

962
01:02:00,960 --> 01:02:02,600
Speaker 1: of And this is something and I'm only thinking of

963
01:02:02,640 --> 01:02:06,480
Speaker 1: this because it happens in another soccer movie very effectively,

964
01:02:06,520 --> 01:02:10,720
Speaker 1: bend It like Beckham, where Kira Knightley's mom in Bendett

965
01:02:10,760 --> 01:02:12,640
Speaker 1: like Beckham, and Amanda Buyds, his mom and She's the

966
01:02:12,680 --> 01:02:15,320
Speaker 1: man are very similar type characters where they want to

967
01:02:15,360 --> 01:02:19,040
Speaker 1: force a very traditional idea of femininity onto their daughter,

968
01:02:19,360 --> 01:02:22,760
Speaker 1: and Bendett, like Beckham, they have a dialogue about it

969
01:02:22,840 --> 01:02:26,160
Speaker 1: and there's some conversations had between the mother and the

970
01:02:26,240 --> 01:02:28,880
Speaker 1: daughter that doesn't really happen in this movie. Granted, there's

971
01:02:28,880 --> 01:02:30,520
Speaker 1: a lot of stuff going on I don't know if

972
01:02:30,560 --> 01:02:34,840
Speaker 1: we necessarily have time for it, but in in you know,

973
01:02:34,920 --> 01:02:40,160
Speaker 1: for instance, in lieu of Viola going through with the

974
01:02:40,520 --> 01:02:43,520
Speaker 1: debue tant ball, why is there not a conversation between

975
01:02:43,680 --> 01:02:46,480
Speaker 1: her and her mother that could probably be pretty productive

976
01:02:47,160 --> 01:02:51,200
Speaker 1: about why she is not interested in doing it? Um, So,

977
01:02:51,440 --> 01:02:55,120
Speaker 1: there is a very short conversation early on where her

978
01:02:55,160 --> 01:02:57,280
Speaker 1: mom's trying to get her to like agree to this

979
01:02:57,320 --> 01:03:00,760
Speaker 1: debut tap ball thing, and Viola says like, I have

980
01:03:00,800 --> 01:03:04,200
Speaker 1: no interest in being a debutant, Like I think they're archaic,

981
01:03:04,760 --> 01:03:07,320
Speaker 1: so could have been spoken, but then she ends up

982
01:03:07,320 --> 01:03:10,480
Speaker 1: appeasing her and do exactly. So that felt like kind

983
01:03:10,520 --> 01:03:13,280
Speaker 1: of right, that's yeah, that's one of my big problems

984
01:03:13,320 --> 01:03:17,400
Speaker 1: with the ball scene. But oh, one last thing I

985
01:03:17,400 --> 01:03:27,240
Speaker 1: wanted to talk about is the Paul character being being

986
01:03:27,840 --> 01:03:31,720
Speaker 1: what I interpreted to be queer coded. Well, yeah, at

987
01:03:31,760 --> 01:03:35,320
Speaker 1: the end, he's with not Toby, the other one and

988
01:03:35,560 --> 01:03:38,200
Speaker 1: kind of like grooming him a little bit, which is like, okay, yeah,

989
01:03:38,240 --> 01:03:43,080
Speaker 1: there's like a very quick glimpse, and then before that

990
01:03:43,120 --> 01:03:46,160
Speaker 1: he's sort of like the Harvey fire Steam character from

991
01:03:46,560 --> 01:03:50,920
Speaker 1: Mrs Doubtfire where he like does the whole makeover of Viola,

992
01:03:51,240 --> 01:03:54,160
Speaker 1: and the queer quoting in this movie isn't as horribly

993
01:03:54,200 --> 01:03:57,800
Speaker 1: done and egregious as it is in some movies. But

994
01:03:58,800 --> 01:04:01,880
Speaker 1: but queer codd dirt equals makeover is kind of like

995
01:04:01,920 --> 01:04:05,959
Speaker 1: a fairly standard lazy writing. Yeah, it's very tropy. Yeah

996
01:04:05,960 --> 01:04:09,000
Speaker 1: they could have again another thing that could have been subverted,

997
01:04:09,040 --> 01:04:12,280
Speaker 1: but instead was like, you know, double down on. Paul

998
01:04:12,320 --> 01:04:15,160
Speaker 1: does deliver my favorite line of the movie, hit it

999
01:04:15,360 --> 01:04:18,200
Speaker 1: and he goes be a good boy and then Boyle

1000
01:04:18,280 --> 01:04:21,240
Speaker 1: has to walk off. I got goose bumps every time.

1001
01:04:21,320 --> 01:04:25,960
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, that's nice laying along. I mean, all

1002
01:04:26,000 --> 01:04:29,080
Speaker 1: of Viola's friends, uh, in spite of their kind of

1003
01:04:29,080 --> 01:04:34,200
Speaker 1: shoddy writing, are good friends. Yeah, very supportive friends. And

1004
01:04:34,560 --> 01:04:37,880
Speaker 1: when they're blocking. We didn't really get to Monique, but

1005
01:04:38,000 --> 01:04:39,640
Speaker 1: she's so all over the place that I don't even

1006
01:04:39,640 --> 01:04:43,280
Speaker 1: know what we could say. Well, that is an example

1007
01:04:43,400 --> 01:04:47,320
Speaker 1: to me of a like female rivalry in a movie

1008
01:04:47,520 --> 01:04:50,840
Speaker 1: that there's no groundwork laid for why that would be.

1009
01:04:51,240 --> 01:04:54,240
Speaker 1: So they hate each other and it's not totally clear why.

1010
01:04:54,360 --> 01:04:56,560
Speaker 1: I mean, it's like Boyle is like, oh, I don't

1011
01:04:56,560 --> 01:05:02,480
Speaker 1: like her because she's dating my brother, and well, Monique

1012
01:05:02,720 --> 01:05:07,160
Speaker 1: is pretty mean, but I feel like that's such an

1013
01:05:07,240 --> 01:05:09,480
Speaker 1: underthought character. I don't even want to give the writer's

1014
01:05:09,480 --> 01:05:13,160
Speaker 1: credit for thinking about it this hard. But there is

1015
01:05:13,200 --> 01:05:17,040
Speaker 1: like sort of a tendency in some movies for a

1016
01:05:17,080 --> 01:05:21,000
Speaker 1: female character like Monique, who when you think about it,

1017
01:05:21,320 --> 01:05:24,480
Speaker 1: you know, her boyfriend keeps disappearing and not telling her

1018
01:05:24,560 --> 01:05:27,600
Speaker 1: where he's going. He's constantly bailing on her. It makes

1019
01:05:27,640 --> 01:05:30,760
Speaker 1: sense she would feel insecure and neglected in this relationship

1020
01:05:30,840 --> 01:05:35,120
Speaker 1: because she is neglected in this relationship. How that translates

1021
01:05:35,160 --> 01:05:37,880
Speaker 1: to a dislike of Viola isn't clear to me, But

1022
01:05:37,960 --> 01:05:41,720
Speaker 1: I didn't love that the movie treated her genuinely being

1023
01:05:41,760 --> 01:05:47,720
Speaker 1: neglected in a relationship as like what a bit psycho

1024
01:05:48,160 --> 01:05:51,520
Speaker 1: exactly where I mean, I think the story would like

1025
01:05:51,680 --> 01:05:53,560
Speaker 1: for you to feel that way about her, but it's

1026
01:05:53,600 --> 01:05:57,280
Speaker 1: just totally it's just a total misfire of like, yeah,

1027
01:05:57,320 --> 01:05:59,560
Speaker 1: it's like a combination of the female rival reach out

1028
01:05:59,680 --> 01:06:03,840
Speaker 1: and just like demonizing a woman having needs. Yeah, that

1029
01:06:03,920 --> 01:06:06,320
Speaker 1: I didn't like. And there is that like a girl

1030
01:06:06,440 --> 01:06:09,000
Speaker 1: fight scene that happens in the bathroom of like the

1031
01:06:09,080 --> 01:06:14,080
Speaker 1: debutante training that is an fight, But then I was like, oh, like,

1032
01:06:14,520 --> 01:06:15,960
Speaker 1: why do we need to see that. But then there's

1033
01:06:15,960 --> 01:06:18,800
Speaker 1: also like a boy fight at the carnival, so I'm like, okay,

1034
01:06:18,800 --> 01:06:22,400
Speaker 1: at least there's like a balance struck. I love the boyfriend.

1035
01:06:23,000 --> 01:06:29,600
Speaker 1: This is a lovely children's carnival. Doctor. We should watch

1036
01:06:29,600 --> 01:06:34,560
Speaker 1: the movie together again, just so you can like yesterday night. Oh,

1037
01:06:34,600 --> 01:06:40,560
Speaker 1: I glitter in the entire time. One last thing I

1038
01:06:40,640 --> 01:06:43,960
Speaker 1: want to say is that Viola as Sebastian in biology

1039
01:06:44,040 --> 01:06:48,880
Speaker 1: class is like dissecting some sort of animal and faints

1040
01:06:48,920 --> 01:06:55,120
Speaker 1: because women, but Olivia didn't. That's true. Yeah, Olivia seems

1041
01:06:55,160 --> 01:06:58,120
Speaker 1: to do have done like most of the work women's stem.

1042
01:06:58,240 --> 01:07:02,680
Speaker 1: Viola's a woman in stem sort of. She's a nice call,

1043
01:07:03,400 --> 01:07:05,560
Speaker 1: but I always a bastly like said that in the beginning.

1044
01:07:05,600 --> 01:07:08,520
Speaker 1: Once they pair it up in class, I was like,

1045
01:07:08,880 --> 01:07:10,880
Speaker 1: you know what this stuff, I can't really do it,

1046
01:07:11,160 --> 01:07:13,160
Speaker 1: and all of you is just like I love you. Yeah,

1047
01:07:13,200 --> 01:07:19,400
Speaker 1: She's like, you're so sensitive. She unicsed him. Then take

1048
01:07:23,000 --> 01:07:28,360
Speaker 1: oh one more final shout out to Channing Tatums. I'm sorry,

1049
01:07:28,400 --> 01:07:33,320
Speaker 1: I'm a wine mom again. Channing Tatums impeccable comedic timing

1050
01:07:33,360 --> 01:07:36,560
Speaker 1: on the when he's on the flip phone and he

1051
01:07:36,640 --> 01:07:39,440
Speaker 1: bonks his big old meat head on the thing and

1052
01:07:40,040 --> 01:07:44,880
Speaker 1: he's like hello, Like, it's just it's such a good scene. Oh,

1053
01:07:44,920 --> 01:07:50,560
Speaker 1: I love he's a comedicus. He's so funny. I don't know,

1054
01:07:51,360 --> 01:07:55,360
Speaker 1: I need to call my mom about this. Does anyone

1055
01:07:55,400 --> 01:07:59,040
Speaker 1: else have any other thoughts about She's the man? You know,

1056
01:07:59,240 --> 01:08:04,520
Speaker 1: overall mistakes were made, but a modern classic. So let's

1057
01:08:04,520 --> 01:08:07,840
Speaker 1: talk about whether or not this movie passes Bechtel test.

1058
01:08:08,760 --> 01:08:13,480
Speaker 1: It does. There are scenes between in the very beginning,

1059
01:08:13,560 --> 01:08:17,799
Speaker 1: whenever Viola is talking to her teammates Kia and Yvonne

1060
01:08:17,840 --> 01:08:20,920
Speaker 1: about like having their team been cut. They're talking about

1061
01:08:20,960 --> 01:08:23,400
Speaker 1: like where she wants to play soccer in college. She

1062
01:08:23,479 --> 01:08:26,720
Speaker 1: and his mother talk about the debutante b oh, they

1063
01:08:26,720 --> 01:08:29,200
Speaker 1: do mention justin in that they do mention yeah. Later

1064
01:08:29,200 --> 01:08:32,439
Speaker 1: on that scene, but there's a few lines why don't

1065
01:08:32,439 --> 01:08:35,720
Speaker 1: you do a mom? And she's like, I couldn't. That

1066
01:08:35,800 --> 01:08:40,360
Speaker 1: reminded me of my mom Horny moms representing horn So yeah,

1067
01:08:40,360 --> 01:08:43,799
Speaker 1: there's quite a few conversations that pass the Bechtel test

1068
01:08:44,240 --> 01:08:51,040
Speaker 1: between several different combinations of characters. So that's cool, Um,

1069
01:08:51,360 --> 01:08:54,960
Speaker 1: good job. It's like when first time listeners of this

1070
01:08:55,000 --> 01:08:58,439
Speaker 1: podcast think that that's what the whole podcast is about there,

1071
01:08:58,479 --> 01:09:00,760
Speaker 1: like it's the whole time, are we we're trying to

1072
01:09:00,880 --> 01:09:04,720
Speaker 1: what figure out? Like wait, but does it? It's like

1073
01:09:06,800 --> 01:09:09,639
Speaker 1: it's pretty clear that it's not too hard to figure

1074
01:09:09,680 --> 01:09:13,680
Speaker 1: out totally. Anyways, Shall we read the movie on our

1075
01:09:13,760 --> 01:09:17,720
Speaker 1: nipple scale zero to five nipples based on its portrayal

1076
01:09:17,760 --> 01:09:23,799
Speaker 1: and representation of women. I'm going to give this movie

1077
01:09:23,840 --> 01:09:29,200
Speaker 1: I think three. I'm docking off a couple nipples for

1078
01:09:29,240 --> 01:09:33,880
Speaker 1: all the mistakes that makes, which is the casual homophobia

1079
01:09:34,280 --> 01:09:39,120
Speaker 1: that for the most part goes unchallenged for some of

1080
01:09:39,160 --> 01:09:44,479
Speaker 1: the moments of misogyny that go unchallenged, most notably the

1081
01:09:45,200 --> 01:09:49,360
Speaker 1: scene where in order for Violet as Sebastian to be

1082
01:09:49,520 --> 01:09:54,160
Speaker 1: accepted by her peers, she has to objectify women and

1083
01:09:54,200 --> 01:09:58,240
Speaker 1: seem like this awesome stud to be cool and to

1084
01:09:58,360 --> 01:10:03,640
Speaker 1: be the men the sis normative idea that your genitals

1085
01:10:03,680 --> 01:10:07,479
Speaker 1: determine your gender identity, things like that. This is also,

1086
01:10:08,120 --> 01:10:11,439
Speaker 1: as most movies we come across, a very white movie.

1087
01:10:11,960 --> 01:10:14,680
Speaker 1: The few characters who are people of color are for

1088
01:10:14,720 --> 01:10:19,280
Speaker 1: the most part sidelined, but just the story of a

1089
01:10:19,280 --> 01:10:25,160
Speaker 1: woman seeking to prove that she is equal to her

1090
01:10:25,640 --> 01:10:30,679
Speaker 1: sort of male peers and then succeeding in that quest

1091
01:10:31,400 --> 01:10:34,719
Speaker 1: is just a cool story that we don't really get

1092
01:10:34,760 --> 01:10:38,440
Speaker 1: to see that often, and I like that in the adaptation,

1093
01:10:39,120 --> 01:10:42,040
Speaker 1: even though there is like a romantic subplot with Duke,

1094
01:10:42,600 --> 01:10:46,599
Speaker 1: the main story still is largely like proving that she's

1095
01:10:46,600 --> 01:10:50,519
Speaker 1: a capable soccer player, whereas in the original play it

1096
01:10:50,560 --> 01:10:54,839
Speaker 1: seemed like it was mostly just entirely about the romance.

1097
01:10:54,960 --> 01:10:58,880
Speaker 1: So I like that it deviates from that quite a bit. Um.

1098
01:10:59,040 --> 01:11:03,200
Speaker 1: So yeah, I think three nipples, and I'm gonna give

1099
01:11:03,400 --> 01:11:06,679
Speaker 1: one to the scene in the gym where Channing Tatum

1100
01:11:06,880 --> 01:11:11,599
Speaker 1: is the best comedian ever to have lived that whole scene, yes,

1101
01:11:11,640 --> 01:11:14,040
Speaker 1: exactly two. And then my other two nipples I'm going

1102
01:11:14,080 --> 01:11:18,960
Speaker 1: to give to Amanda Binds for um being a comedic

1103
01:11:18,960 --> 01:11:24,280
Speaker 1: powerhouse in this movie. For uh, you know, we didn't

1104
01:11:24,320 --> 01:11:29,759
Speaker 1: talk about this, but her sort of fall is very upsetting. Yeah,

1105
01:11:29,880 --> 01:11:33,000
Speaker 1: I love her. She's great, and this is a fun movie,

1106
01:11:33,280 --> 01:11:36,479
Speaker 1: not without its flaws, but I really enjoy this movie.

1107
01:11:36,600 --> 01:11:40,680
Speaker 1: Three nipples. I'm also going to give it three or

1108
01:11:40,720 --> 01:11:43,280
Speaker 1: actually I'm gonna give three and a half nipples for

1109
01:11:43,280 --> 01:11:47,080
Speaker 1: for all the reasons you stated, Caitlin, Um, it is

1110
01:11:47,120 --> 01:11:49,439
Speaker 1: a very white movie. There are a lot of blind

1111
01:11:49,520 --> 01:11:54,800
Speaker 1: spots in terms of homophobic jokes, etcetera. But by and large,

1112
01:11:55,080 --> 01:11:57,639
Speaker 1: I think that it's almost tricky to rate on its

1113
01:11:57,640 --> 01:12:00,000
Speaker 1: treatment of women because we spend most of this movie

1114
01:12:00,080 --> 01:12:03,680
Speaker 1: be with men. However, I don't necessarily think that that

1115
01:12:03,800 --> 01:12:06,160
Speaker 1: is a bad thing. I think that that works and

1116
01:12:06,200 --> 01:12:10,479
Speaker 1: still accomplishes quite a bit where it's mostly we are

1117
01:12:10,520 --> 01:12:15,080
Speaker 1: seeing Viola as Sebastian among other men, and it's kind

1118
01:12:15,120 --> 01:12:20,280
Speaker 1: of an examination with varying degrees of success as we've discussed,

1119
01:12:20,880 --> 01:12:25,880
Speaker 1: of looking at masculinity and how do men interact and

1120
01:12:26,320 --> 01:12:28,320
Speaker 1: you know, like what are the shades of gray there?

1121
01:12:28,439 --> 01:12:30,479
Speaker 1: And again there were some hits and there are some misses,

1122
01:12:31,080 --> 01:12:35,240
Speaker 1: but ultimately it does well, certainly better than most teen

1123
01:12:35,320 --> 01:12:39,400
Speaker 1: movies of this era. It's a very effective adaptation where

1124
01:12:39,439 --> 01:12:43,280
Speaker 1: the the you know, original play it does not look

1125
01:12:43,479 --> 01:12:47,320
Speaker 1: upon women that kindly, where that was somehow you know,

1126
01:12:47,439 --> 01:12:51,519
Speaker 1: made into a movie that makes women part of the

1127
01:12:51,600 --> 01:12:55,360
Speaker 1: narrative and very capable. And I do wish that there

1128
01:12:55,400 --> 01:12:59,160
Speaker 1: were other women in this movie included in a more

1129
01:12:59,240 --> 01:13:02,320
Speaker 1: meaningful way. Um. I think it would have been really

1130
01:13:02,360 --> 01:13:06,519
Speaker 1: awesome to have give Viola someone to talk to more

1131
01:13:06,680 --> 01:13:09,920
Speaker 1: often so that she could be reflecting on this experience

1132
01:13:09,920 --> 01:13:11,559
Speaker 1: in real time. I think that there could have been

1133
01:13:11,560 --> 01:13:13,080
Speaker 1: a lot of cool things to get out of that.

1134
01:13:13,680 --> 01:13:15,719
Speaker 1: But for the most part, the fact that we spend

1135
01:13:15,800 --> 01:13:18,400
Speaker 1: most of this movie with men, unlike most movies where

1136
01:13:18,400 --> 01:13:21,000
Speaker 1: we're with men almost all of the time, is done

1137
01:13:21,160 --> 01:13:25,120
Speaker 1: with a lot of intent, and four two thousand and

1138
01:13:25,160 --> 01:13:30,720
Speaker 1: six is handled generally pretty thoughtfully. However, I wish we

1139
01:13:30,720 --> 01:13:33,400
Speaker 1: were with women for more of this movie, and and

1140
01:13:33,439 --> 01:13:38,680
Speaker 1: also the mom character in general kind of missed for me.

1141
01:13:39,400 --> 01:13:41,519
Speaker 1: There's a lot of cartooning characters in this but I

1142
01:13:41,600 --> 01:13:44,760
Speaker 1: just like because the whole time I was thinking of

1143
01:13:44,800 --> 01:13:52,160
Speaker 1: the other hyper traditionally feminine mother character in a soccer movie. Um,

1144
01:13:52,200 --> 01:13:54,480
Speaker 1: I just think that that was a big missed opportunity.

1145
01:13:54,760 --> 01:13:57,880
Speaker 1: You know, maybe if we there was a portion of

1146
01:13:57,920 --> 01:13:59,479
Speaker 1: this movie that had to do with why the fund

1147
01:13:59,600 --> 01:14:01,760
Speaker 1: isn't five Fola at school? That could be a conversation

1148
01:14:01,800 --> 01:14:05,000
Speaker 1: between Viola and her mother right like there there There

1149
01:14:05,000 --> 01:14:08,240
Speaker 1: are definitely, as with most movies, this movie is like

1150
01:14:08,320 --> 01:14:11,400
Speaker 1: littered with missed opportunities, but the ones that capitalizes on

1151
01:14:11,520 --> 01:14:14,680
Speaker 1: generally I think do pretty well. So three and a

1152
01:14:14,680 --> 01:14:17,200
Speaker 1: half nippies from me and to give two of them

1153
01:14:17,240 --> 01:14:21,439
Speaker 1: to Amanda Bynes come back, we need you. I'm going

1154
01:14:21,520 --> 01:14:24,760
Speaker 1: to give I guess I'll give. I have to give

1155
01:14:24,760 --> 01:14:27,400
Speaker 1: one a Channing Tatum because you know you wouldn't think

1156
01:14:27,400 --> 01:14:30,800
Speaker 1: that he's so funny and um, and then I will

1157
01:14:30,840 --> 01:14:37,640
Speaker 1: give my final half nipple to um My queer King Malvolio. Sure,

1158
01:14:37,800 --> 01:14:42,360
Speaker 1: of course, do spiders have nipples? As a nipple expert

1159
01:14:42,400 --> 01:14:46,600
Speaker 1: over here, UM, I would say, now if each of

1160
01:14:47,280 --> 01:14:52,920
Speaker 1: a long ass nipple, spiders are just basically cats who

1161
01:14:53,000 --> 01:14:56,639
Speaker 1: walk on their nipples. I'm sorry, that was the worst

1162
01:14:56,680 --> 01:14:59,679
Speaker 1: thing I've ever said. Sammy, oh hi, I would say,

1163
01:14:59,840 --> 01:15:02,479
Speaker 1: I think even though it is my favorite movie all time,

1164
01:15:02,520 --> 01:15:04,120
Speaker 1: and I did say that it was flowless, I think

1165
01:15:04,840 --> 01:15:08,960
Speaker 1: that I'll give it probably three point five nips. The

1166
01:15:09,000 --> 01:15:11,519
Speaker 1: thing with gender swap movies is that it really does

1167
01:15:11,600 --> 01:15:15,600
Speaker 1: result in focusing on leaning into gender norms, which you

1168
01:15:15,640 --> 01:15:18,800
Speaker 1: know those aren't my bag, baby, So I mean, but

1169
01:15:19,240 --> 01:15:22,280
Speaker 1: you have to do it for the story whatever. But yeah,

1170
01:15:22,360 --> 01:15:25,160
Speaker 1: three and a half. I think one to Unice Sure,

1171
01:15:25,560 --> 01:15:30,799
Speaker 1: one to Amanda Bindes is mugging MH. One to Amanda

1172
01:15:30,840 --> 01:15:38,080
Speaker 1: Bindes is inconsistent accent boy accent southern sometimes southern, and

1173
01:15:38,120 --> 01:15:40,920
Speaker 1: then something like with all of her like money. It's

1174
01:15:40,960 --> 01:15:43,240
Speaker 1: like I love it. Like if you guys ever want

1175
01:15:43,240 --> 01:15:46,479
Speaker 1: to know what I'm like in my daily life, I

1176
01:15:46,520 --> 01:15:51,519
Speaker 1: am Viola as Sebastian without that was such an probable

1177
01:15:52,640 --> 01:15:55,920
Speaker 1: the scene where the one like debutante lady is like

1178
01:15:56,240 --> 01:15:58,160
Speaker 1: Viola true, like you have a secret, and then she

1179
01:15:58,280 --> 01:16:02,640
Speaker 1: just to like that all the time because of that

1180
01:16:02,720 --> 01:16:06,000
Speaker 1: scene when yeah, how many nipples are think about three

1181
01:16:06,000 --> 01:16:08,240
Speaker 1: and a half? You got a half or a half

1182
01:16:08,240 --> 01:16:16,000
Speaker 1: to dinklage. All right, Yeah for not being well, Sammy,

1183
01:16:16,680 --> 01:16:18,840
Speaker 1: thank you so much for being here with us. Thank

1184
01:16:18,840 --> 01:16:22,400
Speaker 1: you for inviting me. It's time. Where can people find

1185
01:16:22,439 --> 01:16:24,920
Speaker 1: you online? Is there anything you'd like to plug? Um?

1186
01:16:25,160 --> 01:16:29,000
Speaker 1: Follow me on Instagram? At it your sam underscores it

1187
01:16:29,080 --> 01:16:32,760
Speaker 1: between those words, so I t underscore? Why oh you

1188
01:16:32,800 --> 01:16:37,120
Speaker 1: are underscore? S A M Twitter Sammy Junio s A

1189
01:16:37,240 --> 01:16:39,000
Speaker 1: M E j U and I oh if your local

1190
01:16:39,040 --> 01:16:41,800
Speaker 1: to Los Angeles are coming to visit, uh see a

1191
01:16:41,880 --> 01:16:45,519
Speaker 1: historical roast or fictional roast show at Dynasty, Typewriter or

1192
01:16:45,560 --> 01:16:48,240
Speaker 1: the comedy Store. Jamie and Caitlin, we're both on and

1193
01:16:48,960 --> 01:16:52,599
Speaker 1: killed it. Oh, so good. It's so good to see them. Also,

1194
01:16:52,720 --> 01:16:56,200
Speaker 1: I do have a podcast unreleased, but it will come

1195
01:16:56,200 --> 01:16:59,679
Speaker 1: out called non Binary Code, which is me going through

1196
01:17:00,040 --> 01:17:03,080
Speaker 1: the non binary journey and inviting guests to talk about

1197
01:17:03,080 --> 01:17:07,960
Speaker 1: their experience, which in what I call a living blurry nice.

1198
01:17:08,080 --> 01:17:10,479
Speaker 1: Thanks love it. So be on the lookout for non

1199
01:17:10,479 --> 01:17:15,439
Speaker 1: Binary Code and you can follow us at bechtel Cast

1200
01:17:15,560 --> 01:17:18,120
Speaker 1: on social media. You can go to our website bectel

1201
01:17:18,120 --> 01:17:21,320
Speaker 1: cast dot com and there you can find episodes. You

1202
01:17:21,360 --> 01:17:24,680
Speaker 1: can find our merch store. We've got all kinds of

1203
01:17:24,880 --> 01:17:31,240
Speaker 1: apparel and mugs. Speaking of you can drink out of

1204
01:17:31,240 --> 01:17:35,320
Speaker 1: a Cat Facts with Caitlin mug or whatever. Oh speaking

1205
01:17:35,320 --> 01:17:42,320
Speaker 1: of which, Alfred Molina could have played Malfolio. Malfolio with

1206
01:17:42,360 --> 01:17:45,839
Speaker 1: this spider. I mean he's a chameleon. He can play anything.

1207
01:17:45,880 --> 01:17:49,040
Speaker 1: That's true. Yeah, yeah, Get your merch um rate and

1208
01:17:49,080 --> 01:17:52,439
Speaker 1: review us on iTunes. That will help us a lot,

1209
01:17:52,560 --> 01:17:55,160
Speaker 1: especially if you give us a five NIP rating and

1210
01:17:55,280 --> 01:17:59,960
Speaker 1: join our Patreon ak Matreon. We do to bonus episodes

1211
01:18:00,240 --> 01:18:03,439
Speaker 1: every single month, can you believe it? And it's only

1212
01:18:03,479 --> 01:18:05,639
Speaker 1: five dollars a month. Oh my god. So I check

1213
01:18:05,680 --> 01:18:08,880
Speaker 1: that out of paton dot com, slash Patreon dot com,

1214
01:18:08,920 --> 01:18:13,479
Speaker 1: slash Beckadle casts excellent, So and thank you, we love you,

1215
01:18:13,720 --> 01:18:18,639
Speaker 1: and we're all. The Man's the Man. Yeah, he's the Man.

1216
01:18:18,800 --> 01:18:19,680
Speaker 1: By