WEBVTT - Chris Appleton EXCLUSIVE: “I Thought My Kids Would Be Better Off Without Me” Opening up About The Darkest Night of His Life and What FINALLY Gave Him The Courage to Live Authentically 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:02.120 I felt like it would be better for them to 0:00:02.160 --> 0:00:04.360 have a dad that was dead than a dad that 0:00:04.480 --> 0:00:08.799 was gay. It's not something I've ever spoken about. Chris 0:00:08.840 --> 0:00:12.000 Ampleton is a hairstylist to the stars including Jennifer Lopez 0:00:12.160 --> 0:00:13.840 Kim Kardashian Do a leaper. 0:00:14.640 --> 0:00:17.720 When did you realize that you couldn't stop hiding who 0:00:17.760 --> 0:00:18.439 you really were? 0:00:18.640 --> 0:00:20.360 I came out in twenty six and all the people 0:00:20.400 --> 0:00:22.799 said to me, well, you must have already known and 0:00:22.960 --> 0:00:25.119 just hit it, And I wasn't aware that I did know. 0:00:25.440 --> 0:00:29.240 Being a gay child, I learned to hide myself when 0:00:29.240 --> 0:00:32.400 I did hair. There was this whole thing about sexuality, 0:00:32.400 --> 0:00:34.159 and it's like, oh, you're gay. Being gay must be 0:00:34.159 --> 0:00:36.159 bad because people are you know. They weren't saying it 0:00:36.200 --> 0:00:38.120 in a nice way, like you're gay. They were like, 0:00:38.479 --> 0:00:38.960 you're gay. 0:00:39.880 --> 0:00:41.839 There was you who filed for a divorce. Everything you've 0:00:41.840 --> 0:00:43.640 been through, I can imagine that's not easy. 0:00:44.000 --> 0:00:47.159 Just because it's not forever doesn't mean it didn't mean something. 0:00:47.240 --> 0:00:50.120 People say things about you. There's things in the tabloid. 0:00:50.200 --> 0:00:51.960 I was going through a lot of private pain. What 0:00:52.080 --> 0:00:57.680 really helped me was not being okay. 0:00:56.360 --> 0:00:59.480 You right about the night that you tried to end 0:00:59.520 --> 0:00:59.960 your life. 0:01:00.120 --> 0:01:03.320 They close my eyes and this is it. I won't 0:01:03.400 --> 0:01:04.679 hurt anyone anymore. 0:01:04.720 --> 0:01:07.720 We reached out to the kids. They send us a 0:01:07.760 --> 0:01:08.160 note for you. 0:01:08.600 --> 0:01:13.920 Oh ye, I don't know what to thro The number 0:01:13.959 --> 0:01:16.320 one health and wellness podcast. 0:01:16.040 --> 0:01:23.120 Jay Setdy, Jay Shaddy sly Set Hey, everyone, welcome back 0:01:23.160 --> 0:01:26.360 to On Purpose. Thank you so much for tuning into 0:01:26.400 --> 0:01:29.520 the place you come to become a happier, healthier, and 0:01:29.640 --> 0:01:32.840 more healed. Every guest I sit down with has been 0:01:32.920 --> 0:01:36.800 on an incredible healing journey, whether it's their mind, their emotions, 0:01:36.920 --> 0:01:40.040 or even their soul. And today's guest is someone who's 0:01:40.040 --> 0:01:43.399 been on an unexpected internal journey because their life is 0:01:43.440 --> 0:01:47.480 so public and external. Today's guest is Chris Appleton, a 0:01:47.560 --> 0:01:52.480 renowned celebrity hairstylist best known for creating iconic looks for 0:01:52.520 --> 0:01:56.640 the likes of Kim Kardashian, Jennifer Lopez, Ariana Grande, and 0:01:56.800 --> 0:02:00.440 so many more. Chris is the global creative director for 0:02:00.560 --> 0:02:03.920 Colour Wow Hair and a social media sensation with over 0:02:04.080 --> 0:02:08.080 seven million followers. His work is regularly featured in Vogue, 0:02:08.280 --> 0:02:12.079 Harper's Bizarre l and in Style. In his debut book, 0:02:12.320 --> 0:02:16.839 Your Roots, don't define you. Chris opens up about identity, 0:02:17.200 --> 0:02:20.519 transformation and self work. So I want you to support Chris. 0:02:20.639 --> 0:02:23.280 Go and pre order it right now. Please, Welcome to 0:02:23.320 --> 0:02:27.400 On Purpose Chris Appleton. Chris, it's great to have you here, 0:02:27.480 --> 0:02:29.760 great to finally be here. I mean, we have bumped 0:02:29.800 --> 0:02:33.000 into each other in a million places, absolutely, whether it's 0:02:33.280 --> 0:02:38.959 Jims Cities, Jims in Miami, Paris, La. And I've always 0:02:39.000 --> 0:02:42.040 been an admirer of you and your work from the outside. 0:02:42.639 --> 0:02:45.160 You work with incredible people. They have so much love 0:02:45.160 --> 0:02:47.280 and respect for you. But I have to be honest 0:02:47.320 --> 0:02:48.880 and say that when I've read the book, I have 0:02:48.919 --> 0:02:51.280 a different level of respect for you that came from 0:02:51.280 --> 0:02:52.760 this book because I can see you really want to 0:02:52.760 --> 0:02:55.400 help people, and I can see that you want to 0:02:55.480 --> 0:02:58.600 use your journey as a way of supporting other people's journeys. 0:02:59.280 --> 0:03:02.839 And that fascinating because you don't really know that when 0:03:02.840 --> 0:03:05.520 you follow someone on Instagram or see them. So I'm 0:03:05.520 --> 0:03:07.840 glad that we get to pull back the curtain on 0:03:07.880 --> 0:03:09.280 your life and understand you more. 0:03:09.400 --> 0:03:11.400 No, absolutely, And I think there's so much about that 0:03:11.400 --> 0:03:13.720 that we make an assumption of people by social media 0:03:13.919 --> 0:03:15.679 just what we see because it's surface level and there's 0:03:15.720 --> 0:03:18.160 nothing wrong with that. But I think it's so nice 0:03:18.200 --> 0:03:19.600 to be able to get to know more and just 0:03:19.680 --> 0:03:22.000 know some of the magic of how things are done 0:03:22.040 --> 0:03:24.000 and how everyone else can have a part of that. 0:03:24.040 --> 0:03:25.520 And that's what I hope with the book, that people 0:03:25.560 --> 0:03:27.639 feel like they can have a part of that and 0:03:28.160 --> 0:03:29.359 you know, help make that come back. 0:03:29.600 --> 0:03:32.079 Yeah, And it's so nice to sit with another man 0:03:32.120 --> 0:03:35.360 from England and think about the crazy journey. We just 0:03:35.440 --> 0:03:37.720 realized we both moved to the States nine years ago. 0:03:37.920 --> 0:03:39.240 I have no regrets. What about you? 0:03:39.240 --> 0:03:39.800 No, me too. 0:03:40.040 --> 0:03:40.640 I love it here. 0:03:40.680 --> 0:03:43.240 It's been amazing to me. It's been so good to me. 0:03:43.280 --> 0:03:45.400 I feel like it's been good to you as well. Absolutely, 0:03:45.480 --> 0:03:47.920 And I'm in Londoner at heart, always through and through. 0:03:48.000 --> 0:03:50.160 But there's a beauty to living here. Yeah. 0:03:50.200 --> 0:03:51.680 I mean there's so many nice things when you go home, 0:03:51.800 --> 0:03:53.920 Like I just went back and the chocolate. I just 0:03:53.960 --> 0:03:56.119 always love the chocolate. It's a little sweeter, a little 0:03:56.120 --> 0:04:01.160 bit of a sweet milk exactly. Yeah, I just like 0:04:01.240 --> 0:04:04.800 dairy milk, the milk. Yeah, but I'm always fat. I'm 0:04:04.800 --> 0:04:07.160 like sitting in the stores, like just looking at all 0:04:07.200 --> 0:04:12.400 of the that I remember remember pickled on your cris Yeah, 0:04:12.400 --> 0:04:15.160 exactly all the things, but no, it's fun to go back, 0:04:15.200 --> 0:04:17.400 but LA is definitely home now, Yeah, I. 0:04:17.360 --> 0:04:19.320 Love that well, Chris. I wanted to ask you something 0:04:19.360 --> 0:04:22.200 that I often ask a lot of guests because I 0:04:22.240 --> 0:04:26.560 think I'm always fascinated by how who we were places 0:04:26.640 --> 0:04:28.920 imprints on us into who we become. And I wanted 0:04:28.920 --> 0:04:31.839 to ask you, do you have a childhood experience that 0:04:31.880 --> 0:04:34.440 you remember that you think has defined who you are today? 0:04:34.880 --> 0:04:37.520 An experience or a memory that you have that you 0:04:37.600 --> 0:04:40.680 feel had some coding into who you've become today. 0:04:40.800 --> 0:04:43.000 You know, it's funny you say that, because I have 0:04:43.080 --> 0:04:45.720 a very distinct memory, but for a long time it 0:04:45.760 --> 0:04:49.200 was a really sad one. But the more I've understood 0:04:49.240 --> 0:04:52.400 that memory, the more I realized it was kind of 0:04:52.400 --> 0:04:54.240 where I was at in my life. And it's sad 0:04:54.279 --> 0:04:56.720 because I guess it was a memory at the age 0:04:56.760 --> 0:04:59.919 of it was maybe sort of eight and nine years old, 0:05:00.480 --> 0:05:03.920 and I remember looking outside the window. I'll come from 0:05:03.960 --> 0:05:05.960 a big family in the UK and one of five. 0:05:06.120 --> 0:05:10.120 We were you know, really working class, if not poor. 0:05:10.160 --> 0:05:13.040 You know, we didn't have many luxuries and life was real. 0:05:13.120 --> 0:05:16.600 It was very you know, different to La and sunshine. 0:05:16.600 --> 0:05:19.479 It was rainy and gray, and I remember sort of 0:05:19.480 --> 0:05:22.680 looking out the window and I felt like I didn't 0:05:22.720 --> 0:05:25.200 really belong I knew I felt different. I knew there 0:05:25.240 --> 0:05:29.719 was something different, Like my brothers enjoyed doing football and sports, 0:05:30.000 --> 0:05:32.839 and my sisters like doing girls things like I don't 0:05:32.839 --> 0:05:35.159 know why we were playing with bobbies or braiding hair, and 0:05:35.200 --> 0:05:37.359 I kind of felt somewhere in the middle. I didn't 0:05:37.440 --> 0:05:39.560 really feel like I fit in. I was a middle 0:05:39.640 --> 0:05:42.520 child also, and I remember just looking out and I 0:05:42.560 --> 0:05:45.200 felt quite alone. And I think that was the beginning 0:05:45.320 --> 0:05:49.200 of me kind of abandoning myself in a way to 0:05:49.320 --> 0:05:51.799 fit in, to fit in with what I think people 0:05:51.839 --> 0:05:54.240 around me thought I should be or who I was 0:05:54.279 --> 0:05:57.680 told to be. So that memory was in one way, 0:05:58.279 --> 0:06:01.520 it's very motivational now I know what it meant because 0:06:01.560 --> 0:06:03.599 I can kind of go back to that moment and 0:06:03.640 --> 0:06:05.640 I've learned that sur in therapy and sort of been 0:06:05.680 --> 0:06:08.200 able to like connect with that inner child, which for 0:06:08.240 --> 0:06:11.279 so long I ignored. But I think for me, it was 0:06:11.480 --> 0:06:13.480 a real special moment that I go back to because 0:06:13.520 --> 0:06:16.680 you can kind of change that, you can change what 0:06:16.760 --> 0:06:18.760 you came from and that's a lot about what the 0:06:18.760 --> 0:06:20.840 book's about. It's about how your roots don't define you, 0:06:21.279 --> 0:06:23.799 and it really is about you know, we all grow 0:06:23.880 --> 0:06:26.680 up being told to be something or be someone, or 0:06:26.680 --> 0:06:29.720 we have influencers around us which kind of leaders into 0:06:29.760 --> 0:06:32.559 a certain part of our lives, and sometimes we stop 0:06:32.600 --> 0:06:35.719 and look in the mirror and don't recognize how we 0:06:35.760 --> 0:06:39.400 got there, let alone how we look. You know, sometimes 0:06:39.560 --> 0:06:42.760 I've worked with clients and I'll say, you've got short, 0:06:42.880 --> 0:06:46.279 dark hair and bangs. Why is that? And why just 0:06:46.279 --> 0:06:48.000 what I've always had? I don't know we ever thought 0:06:48.000 --> 0:06:50.760 about going lighter and long? No, not really? Why not? 0:06:50.839 --> 0:06:53.560 Well just because that's not what they kind of then 0:06:53.600 --> 0:06:55.320 stop and go, well, why have I never thought that? 0:06:55.680 --> 0:06:57.640 Because no one ever given the freedom to. And a 0:06:57.680 --> 0:06:59.760 lot about what my job was about is really kind 0:06:59.800 --> 0:07:03.320 of opening people up. It's really starts on the outside 0:07:03.320 --> 0:07:06.000 as a visual, but then once you start going internal 0:07:06.080 --> 0:07:08.720 with things and breaking down these kind of boundaries, it's 0:07:08.760 --> 0:07:10.840 really quite magical what can happen. And that, in a 0:07:10.920 --> 0:07:13.480 nutshell is kind of what I've always done. Gone that 0:07:13.520 --> 0:07:14.920 little bit deeper, and I guess going back to that 0:07:15.000 --> 0:07:18.680 childhood memory really helps me kind of remember that that 0:07:18.720 --> 0:07:21.160 your roots really don't define you, and you do have 0:07:21.240 --> 0:07:23.280 a chance to start again. It's never too late. 0:07:23.520 --> 0:07:26.320 Yeah, it's such an interesting connection that you made there, 0:07:26.360 --> 0:07:29.400 because most people wouldn't see that. You wouldn't think that 0:07:30.400 --> 0:07:34.080 something aesthetic like that about yourself is so deep rooted, 0:07:34.120 --> 0:07:36.720 but it is. And all these limitations and blocks and 0:07:36.760 --> 0:07:39.560 all this conditioning that we all have, whether it's about 0:07:39.720 --> 0:07:41.720 who you can become, how much money you can make, 0:07:42.400 --> 0:07:44.160 who you're meant to be in the world. And for you, 0:07:44.160 --> 0:07:46.520 you fell in love with the hair quite early, right, Yeah, 0:07:46.720 --> 0:07:49.600 that was something you discovered. Really, what was the discovery 0:07:49.600 --> 0:07:51.360 of it? I think it was, honestly, the first time 0:07:51.400 --> 0:07:53.240 I felt good at something. I was pretty young. 0:07:53.280 --> 0:07:55.600 I was maybe like nine ten years old as a 0:07:55.600 --> 0:07:59.360 similar age where I was dyslexic, so I really knew 0:07:59.400 --> 0:08:01.360 what that was then. So you were kind of just 0:08:01.440 --> 0:08:03.160 told you were stupid. I remember I used to sit 0:08:03.200 --> 0:08:04.560 in the classes and I was like, please come one 0:08:04.600 --> 0:08:06.160 into the question because I did not know what he 0:08:06.200 --> 0:08:09.280 was going on about. When I sort of started to paint, 0:08:09.360 --> 0:08:11.680 I noticed I got like a reaction. And then when 0:08:11.720 --> 0:08:14.520 I started to use my hands and do hair, which 0:08:14.680 --> 0:08:16.600 was my mom. At the time, I realized you had 0:08:16.640 --> 0:08:19.040 this ability to sort of change the way people felt. 0:08:19.040 --> 0:08:21.600 I really liked that. I loved that you could transform people. 0:08:21.640 --> 0:08:24.320 I was really mesmized by that. But I noticed people 0:08:24.360 --> 0:08:26.680 reacted different, and I felt like that was almost like 0:08:26.720 --> 0:08:30.440 a superpower. So I just thought, I'm going to be 0:08:30.440 --> 0:08:32.400 the best at it. This is what I'm good at. 0:08:32.640 --> 0:08:35.120 I'll be the best at it, and I'll prove everyone wrong. 0:08:35.679 --> 0:08:38.960 I'm not stupid. And again just being conditioned to I mean, 0:08:39.000 --> 0:08:41.760 I was pretty bullied at school because of that. And 0:08:41.880 --> 0:08:44.840 then when I did hair, there was this whole thing 0:08:44.840 --> 0:08:47.120 about sexuality and it's like, oh, you're gay because no 0:08:47.160 --> 0:08:49.920 one back then did hair espec when had a job 0:08:49.960 --> 0:08:54.000 at thirteen, and doing hair was you know, stereotypically where 0:08:54.120 --> 0:08:56.800 I grew up, people you know, said okay, wee are 0:08:56.800 --> 0:08:58.960 you gay? And that was before I al really even 0:08:59.040 --> 0:09:02.480 understood sexuality. I didn't even really consider it. I was 0:09:02.520 --> 0:09:04.040 just a young guy having a great time. You know, 0:09:04.040 --> 0:09:06.200 when you're a kid, you just you're free. You know, 0:09:06.240 --> 0:09:07.839 it's great. It's such a good feeling. And then the 0:09:07.880 --> 0:09:10.120 harsh reality of life slaps around the face one day 0:09:10.840 --> 0:09:13.320 and I remember sort of things, was like, well bad, 0:09:13.640 --> 0:09:15.720 that's bad, Like being gay must be bad because people 0:09:15.800 --> 0:09:17.720 are They weren't saying it in a nice way, like 0:09:17.760 --> 0:09:20.959 you're gay. They were like you're gay. You know, people 0:09:21.000 --> 0:09:23.360 would like spit on you. And I mean it was bad. 0:09:23.400 --> 0:09:27.199 I got bullied quite aggressively, and I think that really 0:09:27.280 --> 0:09:31.760 led me to push, and I guess push away from myself. 0:09:31.840 --> 0:09:34.040 That's I think when the curtain started to come down 0:09:34.080 --> 0:09:37.600 and I really abandoned myself because I started to become 0:09:37.600 --> 0:09:40.640 a version of myself that I thought other people wanted 0:09:40.679 --> 0:09:44.640 to see. So talk a little bit more masculine, stand 0:09:44.640 --> 0:09:46.920 more masculine. You know, you start to become very aware 0:09:47.240 --> 0:09:51.360 of your mannerisms. Doing hair was feminine. So I kind 0:09:51.360 --> 0:09:52.840 of kept it to myself and I just kept my 0:09:52.880 --> 0:09:55.319 head down. I didn't want to tell people about it. 0:09:55.360 --> 0:09:58.880 And it's really sad because I think being a gay child, 0:10:00.200 --> 0:10:03.200 I learned to hide myself. I lean to hide the 0:10:03.240 --> 0:10:07.600 parts of myself with authentic and I adapted myself into 0:10:08.240 --> 0:10:10.800 being something that I thought other people wanted me to be. 0:10:11.320 --> 0:10:13.680 And as an adult, what you have to do is 0:10:13.720 --> 0:10:16.839 then on pick those parts and find out what were 0:10:16.840 --> 0:10:19.520 the parts that are actually me? And the parts that 0:10:19.559 --> 0:10:22.560 I created for other people. And as much as anything, 0:10:22.559 --> 0:10:24.680 I go back to the book, like there is stories 0:10:24.679 --> 0:10:26.760 about my life and as reflection, but it's really about 0:10:26.800 --> 0:10:28.560 helping people get to get back to theirs and on 0:10:28.640 --> 0:10:30.480 pick it as well, because sometimes it takes a bit 0:10:30.520 --> 0:10:33.200 of that work, and that work can be brutal. It's 0:10:33.240 --> 0:10:35.320 not the easiest work I've ever done, but I would 0:10:35.320 --> 0:10:36.600 say the most rewarding for sure. 0:10:36.800 --> 0:10:38.920 Yeah, I like the way you drew that when you 0:10:38.960 --> 0:10:42.000 reflect on your past, you've got to pick a part 0:10:42.000 --> 0:10:43.880 of the parts that you've made for yourself and the 0:10:43.920 --> 0:10:46.359 parts that you made yourself. That's such a great. 0:10:46.440 --> 0:10:48.680 And everyone has that, you know. If you grow up 0:10:48.679 --> 0:10:50.240 into a family of religion, or if you grow into 0:10:50.280 --> 0:10:53.400 a family of different beliefs and cultures, you tend to 0:10:53.440 --> 0:10:55.880 take them on, even relationships. You know, we look at 0:10:55.960 --> 0:10:59.439 relationships of like that's how mom and dad interacts, and 0:10:59.480 --> 0:11:00.880 you kind of carry that for out your life. And 0:11:00.880 --> 0:11:02.680 it's not until you get into relationships an adult and 0:11:02.679 --> 0:11:05.400 you're like, oh, you can do it differently, you know. 0:11:05.480 --> 0:11:07.960 And they're all the lessons we learn as adults. But 0:11:08.000 --> 0:11:11.280 not everyone is, like I guess aware of that. Not 0:11:11.320 --> 0:11:14.200 everyone is aware is you can change the story, and 0:11:14.240 --> 0:11:15.560 there's a real freedom to doing that. 0:11:15.640 --> 0:11:17.280 Yeah, I want to go down two paths based on 0:11:17.320 --> 0:11:19.440 what you said, but the first path before we go 0:11:19.480 --> 0:11:21.920 down the other, because the other will lead to more 0:11:22.880 --> 0:11:25.640 different opportunities to talk about. But the first part is 0:11:26.000 --> 0:11:27.600 you said you wanted to become the best. As soon 0:11:27.600 --> 0:11:30.920 as you discovered you can do hair, you're like, I'm 0:11:30.920 --> 0:11:33.280 going to become really good at this. Yeah, what did 0:11:33.280 --> 0:11:37.640 it take to become the best at what you do? 0:11:38.080 --> 0:11:40.400 Because you are, you work with the best, you consider 0:11:40.440 --> 0:11:43.600 the best by the people that you serve. What did 0:11:43.600 --> 0:11:47.119 that take? Because I think often when we look at athletes, 0:11:47.920 --> 0:11:51.360 or you look at business, there's people who've told those stories. 0:11:51.400 --> 0:11:54.199 But when you take something as artistic as air, yeah, 0:11:54.360 --> 0:11:57.400 we don't necessarily think about it in the same way totally, 0:11:57.480 --> 0:12:00.280 at least publicly, even though it's such an important part 0:12:00.280 --> 0:12:03.560 of daily life that everyone has, right And so I 0:12:03.600 --> 0:12:06.360 want you to walk me through, like what was that process? Like? 0:12:06.360 --> 0:12:08.080 Like what did that take? What did that look like? 0:12:08.240 --> 0:12:14.240 I think I just was so determined not to be stupid, 0:12:14.360 --> 0:12:17.400 not to be deemed as bad or different, that I 0:12:17.440 --> 0:12:19.320 really wanted to be good at something, and like I say, 0:12:19.360 --> 0:12:21.280 it's kind of a double edged sort because it motivated 0:12:21.280 --> 0:12:23.079 me to want to do better. And my focus really 0:12:23.200 --> 0:12:26.280 was to just get on it as fast as I could, 0:12:26.320 --> 0:12:29.600 and I just put everything I had into hair. Like 0:12:29.640 --> 0:12:31.800 I got a job at the age of thirteen and 0:12:31.880 --> 0:12:34.480 I just had a salon. Yeah, And I remember my 0:12:34.520 --> 0:12:37.400 first day. I remember it very clear. I remember standing 0:12:37.440 --> 0:12:39.640 against the wall and I saw people walking one way 0:12:40.280 --> 0:12:42.319 and I saw them then walk out another way once 0:12:42.360 --> 0:12:44.040 they have their hair done, and I swear they were 0:12:44.080 --> 0:12:46.920 standing a little taller and then you know, their shoulders 0:12:46.960 --> 0:12:48.240 went back and I was like, this is good. I 0:12:48.280 --> 0:12:49.560 love this, and I was like I want to do 0:12:49.640 --> 0:12:52.400 I remember literally thinking this is what I'm going to do. 0:12:53.000 --> 0:12:56.280 And I just like every aspect of parent if I 0:12:56.320 --> 0:12:58.200 didn't know how to do it, I'd find out, you know. 0:12:58.280 --> 0:13:01.080 I mean, eventually, as my career regressed and I became 0:13:01.440 --> 0:13:03.440 top sort of hair stylist, and then was like, what's 0:13:03.480 --> 0:13:05.360 outside of this? So I'd look outside. I was like, Oh, 0:13:05.400 --> 0:13:07.560 this is thing called editorial hair, and there's fashion shows 0:13:07.600 --> 0:13:10.320 and there's and every every kind of block was like 0:13:10.360 --> 0:13:12.920 a beginning again because no one really kind of like 0:13:12.960 --> 0:13:15.160 if you're a sale hairdresser. You're just a soale hairdress 0:13:15.160 --> 0:13:17.040 so you can't be a fashion hairdresser. You know, they 0:13:17.120 --> 0:13:20.679 kind of there's a competition. Yeah, totally. It's like, you know, 0:13:20.960 --> 0:13:22.880 people love to put you in a box. All my life, 0:13:22.960 --> 0:13:25.160 people love to put me, and I still to today, 0:13:25.240 --> 0:13:27.120 I'm always trying to fight being put out of box. 0:13:27.120 --> 0:13:28.439 I don't know if you can relate to that. I 0:13:29.360 --> 0:13:31.080 think a lot of people just still love to put 0:13:31.120 --> 0:13:33.520 you where they know you can stay. And I just 0:13:33.600 --> 0:13:35.480 pushed myself to know every aspect and if I didn't 0:13:35.480 --> 0:13:38.880 know what it was. I remember, for example, I eventually 0:13:38.960 --> 0:13:41.560 got an editorial job and they wanted a look that 0:13:41.600 --> 0:13:43.480 I just didn't know how to do, and I just 0:13:43.520 --> 0:13:45.319 got in a car. I took myself to this local 0:13:45.360 --> 0:13:47.640 salon and she did this. It was like this, this 0:13:47.720 --> 0:13:50.240 like weaving technique of it's called a basket weave, and 0:13:50.240 --> 0:13:51.679 like I would sit there and watch her and just 0:13:51.720 --> 0:13:53.040 pay this woman to sit and watch and I'd sit 0:13:53.080 --> 0:13:55.280 with her doll's head up all night. I don't know, 0:13:55.320 --> 0:13:57.200 I just I think I just went above and beyond. 0:13:57.800 --> 0:13:59.920 I loved what I did, I still love what I do, 0:14:00.160 --> 0:14:03.480 and I just I think that combined with again a 0:14:03.480 --> 0:14:05.160 bit of a blessing in a curse, like a little 0:14:05.160 --> 0:14:08.680 bit of an OCD mentality, where I wanted it to 0:14:08.679 --> 0:14:11.600 be good and I could see things. I don't just 0:14:11.679 --> 0:14:13.560 let things go. I can see every detail and every 0:14:13.600 --> 0:14:15.720 little hair, and I think that can combined and just 0:14:15.760 --> 0:14:18.720 the passion to want to be good at something just 0:14:18.760 --> 0:14:20.840 pushed me. And it's funny now because it's only now 0:14:20.840 --> 0:14:22.840 I'm forty two and I look back at videos. I 0:14:22.880 --> 0:14:25.760 recently just put some things on social media because someone 0:14:25.800 --> 0:14:27.880 came from the UK with a big box of DVDs, 0:14:28.440 --> 0:14:31.040 and even I forgot what I did to get to 0:14:31.040 --> 0:14:33.920 where I've got. Every competition I did and I didn't 0:14:33.960 --> 0:14:37.320 win and failed, and every you know, educational thing that 0:14:37.360 --> 0:14:40.160 I failed because of my dislexay. I just kept bouncing 0:14:40.240 --> 0:14:43.560 back and the nose. I had people laugh in my face, 0:14:43.640 --> 0:14:45.720 you know. I remember eventually I got an agent, and 0:14:46.240 --> 0:14:48.320 I was so excited about the next steps, and they'd 0:14:48.360 --> 0:14:49.480 laugh at me. They were like, you know, you just 0:14:49.520 --> 0:14:51.520 need to stay where you are and keep it real, 0:14:51.600 --> 0:14:53.120 and they'd send me on a photo shoot for some 0:14:53.120 --> 0:14:56.400 flip flop commercial. I just I didn't care. I was 0:14:56.480 --> 0:14:58.240 just determined, and I think you have to have that 0:14:58.280 --> 0:15:00.760 resilience along the way. I think you really have to 0:15:00.800 --> 0:15:04.960 have that intern or resilience to stay focused. And it's 0:15:04.960 --> 0:15:06.760 not it was never one thing. It was just lots 0:15:06.800 --> 0:15:10.760 of little leap frog moments. Everyone thinks it's this big moment. 0:15:10.800 --> 0:15:13.080 It really isn't. It's just a build. But I would 0:15:13.160 --> 0:15:16.760 say one of my biggest secrets to success in that 0:15:16.840 --> 0:15:20.440 area was just to be consistent. I stayed consistent and 0:15:20.480 --> 0:15:21.920 when I got knocked down, I got back up on 0:15:22.000 --> 0:15:24.040 a carry on and I tried to land by every 0:15:24.080 --> 0:15:26.440 mistake as I went along. You know, I if I failed, 0:15:26.440 --> 0:15:28.200 I was like, why did I fail in that person? Wait? 0:15:28.200 --> 0:15:30.240 Why did that person get it? And I didn't. I 0:15:30.240 --> 0:15:33.240 would look and I analyze the situation and come back. Yeah, 0:15:33.320 --> 0:15:35.760 And I think that's a lot of what it takes. 0:15:35.840 --> 0:15:38.000 Yeah. Absolutely, it's good advice. It's also good to hear 0:15:38.040 --> 0:15:41.200 that there's no industry in which you just one day 0:15:41.240 --> 0:15:43.760 get a call from, you know, totally the biggest star 0:15:43.840 --> 0:15:46.080 in the world. It's like everyone's earned their stripes and 0:15:46.080 --> 0:15:48.200 done the work, and it's good to hear about it. 0:15:48.200 --> 0:15:51.360 Whether it's podcasting, whether it's hair whether it's music and 0:15:51.400 --> 0:15:54.520 athletes that we've had, it's it's always that you always 0:15:54.520 --> 0:15:57.200 hear that same story. But going back to England and 0:15:57.240 --> 0:16:01.840 talking about the derogatory use of the term gay, I mean, 0:16:01.920 --> 0:16:05.000 I went to a boys school and I think about 0:16:05.040 --> 0:16:07.200 all the guys at my school that got so bullied 0:16:08.080 --> 0:16:12.560 because we went to a boys school as well. And 0:16:12.600 --> 0:16:15.440 now when I look at how many guys in my 0:16:15.480 --> 0:16:18.720 school were gay but never came out until years later, 0:16:19.320 --> 0:16:21.680 some of them at university, some of them much later 0:16:21.760 --> 0:16:24.520 than that, and I'm just like, wow, they never even 0:16:24.560 --> 0:16:28.160 had the opportunity because they thought immediately that if they 0:16:28.160 --> 0:16:30.800 were to say that at our school, they were going 0:16:30.840 --> 0:16:32.920 to get bullied for it. And so I get how 0:16:32.960 --> 0:16:35.880 real that was at that time especially, and of course 0:16:35.920 --> 0:16:37.800 there are still parts of the world where that's still 0:16:37.840 --> 0:16:41.840 the case. But how early were you sure about that 0:16:41.960 --> 0:16:45.320 being part of your identity and were you consciously masking 0:16:45.360 --> 0:16:48.240 it or was it still a discovery of your identity 0:16:48.560 --> 0:16:50.280 or was it like, oh, I know that's true and 0:16:50.320 --> 0:16:52.400 I'm going to hide it now, as you said, you 0:16:52.440 --> 0:16:55.320 had to abandon yourself, or was it like I don't 0:16:55.400 --> 0:16:58.400 really know what that is and I'm discovering and figuring 0:16:58.440 --> 0:16:59.280 it out. How was it for. 0:16:59.280 --> 0:17:01.720 You as to this A lot? It took me a 0:17:01.720 --> 0:17:04.600 while to understand because in the beginning I didn't know myself. 0:17:04.720 --> 0:17:06.400 I came out in twenty six and all of people 0:17:06.520 --> 0:17:08.480 said to me, well, you must have already known, like 0:17:08.800 --> 0:17:10.800 and just hit it, And I wasn't aware that I 0:17:10.840 --> 0:17:13.639 did know. And I'll tell you now, Jay, like, the 0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:17.240 brain is such a powerful tool, and shame is such 0:17:17.440 --> 0:17:20.120 a powerful tool. And when I think back to that 0:17:20.440 --> 0:17:24.560 eight year old kid that just felt different and I 0:17:24.600 --> 0:17:27.239 had to hide it, like, I feel so sad for 0:17:27.280 --> 0:17:30.840 that little guy, because it really did abandon myself and 0:17:30.920 --> 0:17:33.800 I think I just I shut it out. I didn't 0:17:33.800 --> 0:17:36.440 even allow myself to think about it. It was before sexuality. 0:17:36.720 --> 0:17:39.760 I was even thinking about having sex, so anything like that, 0:17:39.800 --> 0:17:41.600 I just knew it was bad and I just pushed 0:17:41.640 --> 0:17:44.200 it away. So I went through my life, like I said, 0:17:44.280 --> 0:17:46.600 trying to just be normal, and as far as I 0:17:46.640 --> 0:17:48.600 was aware, it was fine. And it's not until you 0:17:48.640 --> 0:17:51.920 really you have these moments where you stop at life. 0:17:52.240 --> 0:17:54.080 Life makes you stop sometimes if you don't choose to 0:17:54.080 --> 0:17:56.359 stop and look in the mirror, sometimes life makes you 0:17:56.400 --> 0:17:59.000 stop it's a you know, something, you losing a family member, 0:17:59.280 --> 0:18:01.120 it can be anything. But sometimes you have to sit 0:18:01.160 --> 0:18:05.200 with yourself. And I don't know that ever allowed myself 0:18:05.240 --> 0:18:09.280 to know. I never had the space to express that. 0:18:09.440 --> 0:18:12.600