Speaker 1: I felt like it would be better for them to
Speaker 1: have a dad that was dead than a dad that
Speaker 1: was gay. It's not something I've ever spoken about. Chris
Speaker 1: Ampleton is a hairstylist to the stars including Jennifer Lopez
Speaker 1: Kim Kardashian Do a leaper.
Speaker 2: When did you realize that you couldn't stop hiding who
Speaker 2: you really were?
Speaker 1: I came out in twenty six and all the people
Speaker 1: said to me, well, you must have already known and
Speaker 1: just hit it, And I wasn't aware that I did know.
Speaker 1: Being a gay child, I learned to hide myself when
Speaker 1: I did hair. There was this whole thing about sexuality,
Speaker 1: and it's like, oh, you're gay. Being gay must be
Speaker 1: bad because people are you know. They weren't saying it
Speaker 1: in a nice way, like you're gay. They were like,
Speaker 1: you're gay.
Speaker 2: There was you who filed for a divorce. Everything you've
Speaker 2: been through, I can imagine that's not easy.
Speaker 1: Just because it's not forever doesn't mean it didn't mean something.
Speaker 1: People say things about you. There's things in the tabloid.
Speaker 1: I was going through a lot of private pain. What
Speaker 1: really helped me was not being okay.
Speaker 2: You right about the night that you tried to end
Speaker 2: your life.
Speaker 1: They close my eyes and this is it. I won't
Speaker 1: hurt anyone anymore.
Speaker 2: We reached out to the kids. They send us a
Speaker 2: note for you.
Speaker 1: Oh ye, I don't know what to thro The number
Speaker 1: one health and wellness podcast.
Speaker 2: Jay Setdy, Jay Shaddy sly Set Hey, everyone, welcome back
Speaker 2: to On Purpose. Thank you so much for tuning into
Speaker 2: the place you come to become a happier, healthier, and
Speaker 2: more healed. Every guest I sit down with has been
Speaker 2: on an incredible healing journey, whether it's their mind, their emotions,
Speaker 2: or even their soul. And today's guest is someone who's
Speaker 2: been on an unexpected internal journey because their life is
Speaker 2: so public and external. Today's guest is Chris Appleton, a
Speaker 2: renowned celebrity hairstylist best known for creating iconic looks for
Speaker 2: the likes of Kim Kardashian, Jennifer Lopez, Ariana Grande, and
Speaker 2: so many more. Chris is the global creative director for
Speaker 2: Colour Wow Hair and a social media sensation with over
Speaker 2: seven million followers. His work is regularly featured in Vogue,
Speaker 2: Harper's Bizarre l and in Style. In his debut book,
Speaker 2: Your Roots, don't define you. Chris opens up about identity,
Speaker 2: transformation and self work. So I want you to support Chris.
Speaker 2: Go and pre order it right now. Please, Welcome to
Speaker 2: On Purpose Chris Appleton. Chris, it's great to have you here,
Speaker 2: great to finally be here. I mean, we have bumped
Speaker 2: into each other in a million places, absolutely, whether it's
Speaker 2: Jims Cities, Jims in Miami, Paris, La. And I've always
Speaker 2: been an admirer of you and your work from the outside.
Speaker 2: You work with incredible people. They have so much love
Speaker 2: and respect for you. But I have to be honest
Speaker 2: and say that when I've read the book, I have
Speaker 2: a different level of respect for you that came from
Speaker 2: this book because I can see you really want to
Speaker 2: help people, and I can see that you want to
Speaker 2: use your journey as a way of supporting other people's journeys.
Speaker 2: And that fascinating because you don't really know that when
Speaker 2: you follow someone on Instagram or see them. So I'm
Speaker 2: glad that we get to pull back the curtain on
Speaker 2: your life and understand you more.
Speaker 1: No, absolutely, And I think there's so much about that
Speaker 1: that we make an assumption of people by social media
Speaker 1: just what we see because it's surface level and there's
Speaker 1: nothing wrong with that. But I think it's so nice
Speaker 1: to be able to get to know more and just
Speaker 1: know some of the magic of how things are done
Speaker 1: and how everyone else can have a part of that.
Speaker 1: And that's what I hope with the book, that people
Speaker 1: feel like they can have a part of that and
Speaker 1: you know, help make that come back.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's so nice to sit with another man
Speaker 2: from England and think about the crazy journey. We just
Speaker 2: realized we both moved to the States nine years ago.
Speaker 1: I have no regrets. What about you?
Speaker 2: No, me too.
Speaker 1: I love it here.
Speaker 2: It's been amazing to me. It's been so good to me.
Speaker 2: I feel like it's been good to you as well. Absolutely,
Speaker 2: And I'm in Londoner at heart, always through and through.
Speaker 2: But there's a beauty to living here. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean there's so many nice things when you go home,
Speaker 1: Like I just went back and the chocolate. I just
Speaker 1: always love the chocolate. It's a little sweeter, a little
Speaker 1: bit of a sweet milk exactly. Yeah, I just like
Speaker 1: dairy milk, the milk. Yeah, but I'm always fat. I'm
Speaker 1: like sitting in the stores, like just looking at all
Speaker 1: of the that I remember remember pickled on your cris Yeah,
Speaker 1: exactly all the things, but no, it's fun to go back,
Speaker 1: but LA is definitely home now, Yeah, I.
Speaker 2: Love that well, Chris. I wanted to ask you something
Speaker 2: that I often ask a lot of guests because I
Speaker 2: think I'm always fascinated by how who we were places
Speaker 2: imprints on us into who we become. And I wanted
Speaker 2: to ask you, do you have a childhood experience that
Speaker 2: you remember that you think has defined who you are today?
Speaker 2: An experience or a memory that you have that you
Speaker 2: feel had some coding into who you've become today.
Speaker 1: You know, it's funny you say that, because I have
Speaker 1: a very distinct memory, but for a long time it
Speaker 1: was a really sad one. But the more I've understood
Speaker 1: that memory, the more I realized it was kind of
Speaker 1: where I was at in my life. And it's sad
Speaker 1: because I guess it was a memory at the age
Speaker 1: of it was maybe sort of eight and nine years old,
Speaker 1: and I remember looking outside the window. I'll come from
Speaker 1: a big family in the UK and one of five.
Speaker 1: We were you know, really working class, if not poor.
Speaker 1: You know, we didn't have many luxuries and life was real.
Speaker 1: It was very you know, different to La and sunshine.
Speaker 1: It was rainy and gray, and I remember sort of
Speaker 1: looking out the window and I felt like I didn't
Speaker 1: really belong I knew I felt different. I knew there
Speaker 1: was something different, Like my brothers enjoyed doing football and sports,
Speaker 1: and my sisters like doing girls things like I don't
Speaker 1: know why we were playing with bobbies or braiding hair, and
Speaker 1: I kind of felt somewhere in the middle. I didn't
Speaker 1: really feel like I fit in. I was a middle
Speaker 1: child also, and I remember just looking out and I
Speaker 1: felt quite alone. And I think that was the beginning
Speaker 1: of me kind of abandoning myself in a way to
Speaker 1: fit in, to fit in with what I think people
Speaker 1: around me thought I should be or who I was
Speaker 1: told to be. So that memory was in one way,
Speaker 1: it's very motivational now I know what it meant because
Speaker 1: I can kind of go back to that moment and
Speaker 1: I've learned that sur in therapy and sort of been
Speaker 1: able to like connect with that inner child, which for
Speaker 1: so long I ignored. But I think for me, it was
Speaker 1: a real special moment that I go back to because
Speaker 1: you can kind of change that, you can change what
Speaker 1: you came from and that's a lot about what the
Speaker 1: book's about. It's about how your roots don't define you,
Speaker 1: and it really is about you know, we all grow
Speaker 1: up being told to be something or be someone, or
Speaker 1: we have influencers around us which kind of leaders into
Speaker 1: a certain part of our lives, and sometimes we stop
Speaker 1: and look in the mirror and don't recognize how we
Speaker 1: got there, let alone how we look. You know, sometimes
Speaker 1: I've worked with clients and I'll say, you've got short,
Speaker 1: dark hair and bangs. Why is that? And why just
Speaker 1: what I've always had? I don't know we ever thought
Speaker 1: about going lighter and long? No, not really? Why not?
Speaker 1: Well just because that's not what they kind of then
Speaker 1: stop and go, well, why have I never thought that?
Speaker 1: Because no one ever given the freedom to. And a
Speaker 1: lot about what my job was about is really kind
Speaker 1: of opening people up. It's really starts on the outside
Speaker 1: as a visual, but then once you start going internal
Speaker 1: with things and breaking down these kind of boundaries, it's
Speaker 1: really quite magical what can happen. And that, in a
Speaker 1: nutshell is kind of what I've always done. Gone that
Speaker 1: little bit deeper, and I guess going back to that
Speaker 1: childhood memory really helps me kind of remember that that
Speaker 1: your roots really don't define you, and you do have
Speaker 1: a chance to start again. It's never too late.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's such an interesting connection that you made there,
Speaker 2: because most people wouldn't see that. You wouldn't think that
Speaker 2: something aesthetic like that about yourself is so deep rooted,
Speaker 2: but it is. And all these limitations and blocks and
Speaker 2: all this conditioning that we all have, whether it's about
Speaker 2: who you can become, how much money you can make,
Speaker 2: who you're meant to be in the world. And for you,
Speaker 2: you fell in love with the hair quite early, right, Yeah,
Speaker 2: that was something you discovered. Really, what was the discovery
Speaker 2: of it? I think it was, honestly, the first time
Speaker 2: I felt good at something. I was pretty young.
Speaker 1: I was maybe like nine ten years old as a
Speaker 1: similar age where I was dyslexic, so I really knew
Speaker 1: what that was then. So you were kind of just
Speaker 1: told you were stupid. I remember I used to sit
Speaker 1: in the classes and I was like, please come one
Speaker 1: into the question because I did not know what he
Speaker 1: was going on about. When I sort of started to paint,
Speaker 1: I noticed I got like a reaction. And then when
Speaker 1: I started to use my hands and do hair, which
Speaker 1: was my mom. At the time, I realized you had
Speaker 1: this ability to sort of change the way people felt.
Speaker 1: I really liked that. I loved that you could transform people.
Speaker 1: I was really mesmized by that. But I noticed people
Speaker 1: reacted different, and I felt like that was almost like
Speaker 1: a superpower. So I just thought, I'm going to be
Speaker 1: the best at it. This is what I'm good at.
Speaker 1: I'll be the best at it, and I'll prove everyone wrong.
Speaker 1: I'm not stupid. And again just being conditioned to I mean,
Speaker 1: I was pretty bullied at school because of that. And
Speaker 1: then when I did hair, there was this whole thing
Speaker 1: about sexuality and it's like, oh, you're gay because no
Speaker 1: one back then did hair espec when had a job
Speaker 1: at thirteen, and doing hair was you know, stereotypically where
Speaker 1: I grew up, people you know, said okay, wee are
Speaker 1: you gay? And that was before I al really even
Speaker 1: understood sexuality. I didn't even really consider it. I was
Speaker 1: just a young guy having a great time. You know,
Speaker 1: when you're a kid, you just you're free. You know,
Speaker 1: it's great. It's such a good feeling. And then the
Speaker 1: harsh reality of life slaps around the face one day
Speaker 1: and I remember sort of things, was like, well bad,
Speaker 1: that's bad, Like being gay must be bad because people
Speaker 1: are They weren't saying it in a nice way, like
Speaker 1: you're gay. They were like you're gay. You know, people
Speaker 1: would like spit on you. And I mean it was bad.
Speaker 1: I got bullied quite aggressively, and I think that really
Speaker 1: led me to push, and I guess push away from myself.
Speaker 1: That's I think when the curtain started to come down
Speaker 1: and I really abandoned myself because I started to become
Speaker 1: a version of myself that I thought other people wanted
Speaker 1: to see. So talk a little bit more masculine, stand
Speaker 1: more masculine. You know, you start to become very aware
Speaker 1: of your mannerisms. Doing hair was feminine. So I kind
Speaker 1: of kept it to myself and I just kept my
Speaker 1: head down. I didn't want to tell people about it.
Speaker 1: And it's really sad because I think being a gay child,
Speaker 1: I learned to hide myself. I lean to hide the
Speaker 1: parts of myself with authentic and I adapted myself into
Speaker 1: being something that I thought other people wanted me to be.
Speaker 1: And as an adult, what you have to do is
Speaker 1: then on pick those parts and find out what were
Speaker 1: the parts that are actually me? And the parts that
Speaker 1: I created for other people. And as much as anything,
Speaker 1: I go back to the book, like there is stories
Speaker 1: about my life and as reflection, but it's really about
Speaker 1: helping people get to get back to theirs and on
Speaker 1: pick it as well, because sometimes it takes a bit
Speaker 1: of that work, and that work can be brutal. It's
Speaker 1: not the easiest work I've ever done, but I would
Speaker 1: say the most rewarding for sure.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I like the way you drew that when you
Speaker 2: reflect on your past, you've got to pick a part
Speaker 2: of the parts that you've made for yourself and the
Speaker 2: parts that you made yourself. That's such a great.
Speaker 1: And everyone has that, you know. If you grow up
Speaker 1: into a family of religion, or if you grow into
Speaker 1: a family of different beliefs and cultures, you tend to
Speaker 1: take them on, even relationships. You know, we look at
Speaker 1: relationships of like that's how mom and dad interacts, and
Speaker 1: you kind of carry that for out your life. And
Speaker 1: it's not until you get into relationships an adult and
Speaker 1: you're like, oh, you can do it differently, you know.
Speaker 1: And they're all the lessons we learn as adults. But
Speaker 1: not everyone is, like I guess aware of that. Not
Speaker 1: everyone is aware is you can change the story, and
Speaker 1: there's a real freedom to doing that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to go down two paths based on
Speaker 2: what you said, but the first path before we go
Speaker 2: down the other, because the other will lead to more
Speaker 2: different opportunities to talk about. But the first part is
Speaker 2: you said you wanted to become the best. As soon
Speaker 2: as you discovered you can do hair, you're like, I'm
Speaker 2: going to become really good at this. Yeah, what did
Speaker 2: it take to become the best at what you do?
Speaker 2: Because you are, you work with the best, you consider
Speaker 2: the best by the people that you serve. What did
Speaker 2: that take? Because I think often when we look at athletes,
Speaker 2: or you look at business, there's people who've told those stories.
Speaker 2: But when you take something as artistic as air, yeah,
Speaker 2: we don't necessarily think about it in the same way totally,
Speaker 2: at least publicly, even though it's such an important part
Speaker 2: of daily life that everyone has, right And so I
Speaker 2: want you to walk me through, like what was that process? Like?
Speaker 2: Like what did that take? What did that look like?
Speaker 1: I think I just was so determined not to be stupid,
Speaker 1: not to be deemed as bad or different, that I
Speaker 1: really wanted to be good at something, and like I say,
Speaker 1: it's kind of a double edged sort because it motivated
Speaker 1: me to want to do better. And my focus really
Speaker 1: was to just get on it as fast as I could,
Speaker 1: and I just put everything I had into hair. Like
Speaker 1: I got a job at the age of thirteen and
Speaker 1: I just had a salon. Yeah, And I remember my
Speaker 1: first day. I remember it very clear. I remember standing
Speaker 1: against the wall and I saw people walking one way
Speaker 1: and I saw them then walk out another way once
Speaker 1: they have their hair done, and I swear they were
Speaker 1: standing a little taller and then you know, their shoulders
Speaker 1: went back and I was like, this is good. I
Speaker 1: love this, and I was like I want to do
Speaker 1: I remember literally thinking this is what I'm going to do.
Speaker 1: And I just like every aspect of parent if I
Speaker 1: didn't know how to do it, I'd find out, you know.
Speaker 1: I mean, eventually, as my career regressed and I became
Speaker 1: top sort of hair stylist, and then was like, what's
Speaker 1: outside of this? So I'd look outside. I was like, Oh,
Speaker 1: this is thing called editorial hair, and there's fashion shows
Speaker 1: and there's and every every kind of block was like
Speaker 1: a beginning again because no one really kind of like
Speaker 1: if you're a sale hairdresser. You're just a soale hairdress
Speaker 1: so you can't be a fashion hairdresser. You know, they
Speaker 1: kind of there's a competition. Yeah, totally. It's like, you know,
Speaker 1: people love to put you in a box. All my life,
Speaker 1: people love to put me, and I still to today,
Speaker 1: I'm always trying to fight being put out of box.
Speaker 1: I don't know if you can relate to that. I
Speaker 1: think a lot of people just still love to put
Speaker 1: you where they know you can stay. And I just
Speaker 1: pushed myself to know every aspect and if I didn't
Speaker 1: know what it was. I remember, for example, I eventually
Speaker 1: got an editorial job and they wanted a look that
Speaker 1: I just didn't know how to do, and I just
Speaker 1: got in a car. I took myself to this local
Speaker 1: salon and she did this. It was like this, this
Speaker 1: like weaving technique of it's called a basket weave, and
Speaker 1: like I would sit there and watch her and just
Speaker 1: pay this woman to sit and watch and I'd sit
Speaker 1: with her doll's head up all night. I don't know,
Speaker 1: I just I think I just went above and beyond.
Speaker 1: I loved what I did, I still love what I do,
Speaker 1: and I just I think that combined with again a
Speaker 1: bit of a blessing in a curse, like a little
Speaker 1: bit of an OCD mentality, where I wanted it to
Speaker 1: be good and I could see things. I don't just
Speaker 1: let things go. I can see every detail and every
Speaker 1: little hair, and I think that can combined and just
Speaker 1: the passion to want to be good at something just
Speaker 1: pushed me. And it's funny now because it's only now
Speaker 1: I'm forty two and I look back at videos. I
Speaker 1: recently just put some things on social media because someone
Speaker 1: came from the UK with a big box of DVDs,
Speaker 1: and even I forgot what I did to get to
Speaker 1: where I've got. Every competition I did and I didn't
Speaker 1: win and failed, and every you know, educational thing that
Speaker 1: I failed because of my dislexay. I just kept bouncing
Speaker 1: back and the nose. I had people laugh in my face,
Speaker 1: you know. I remember eventually I got an agent, and
Speaker 1: I was so excited about the next steps, and they'd
Speaker 1: laugh at me. They were like, you know, you just
Speaker 1: need to stay where you are and keep it real,
Speaker 1: and they'd send me on a photo shoot for some
Speaker 1: flip flop commercial. I just I didn't care. I was
Speaker 1: just determined, and I think you have to have that
Speaker 1: resilience along the way. I think you really have to
Speaker 1: have that intern or resilience to stay focused. And it's
Speaker 1: not it was never one thing. It was just lots
Speaker 1: of little leap frog moments. Everyone thinks it's this big moment.
Speaker 1: It really isn't. It's just a build. But I would
Speaker 1: say one of my biggest secrets to success in that
Speaker 1: area was just to be consistent. I stayed consistent and
Speaker 1: when I got knocked down, I got back up on
Speaker 1: a carry on and I tried to land by every
Speaker 1: mistake as I went along. You know, I if I failed,
Speaker 1: I was like, why did I fail in that person? Wait?
Speaker 1: Why did that person get it? And I didn't. I
Speaker 1: would look and I analyze the situation and come back. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I think that's a lot of what it takes.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, it's good advice. It's also good to hear
Speaker 2: that there's no industry in which you just one day
Speaker 2: get a call from, you know, totally the biggest star
Speaker 2: in the world. It's like everyone's earned their stripes and
Speaker 2: done the work, and it's good to hear about it.
Speaker 2: Whether it's podcasting, whether it's hair whether it's music and
Speaker 2: athletes that we've had, it's it's always that you always
Speaker 2: hear that same story. But going back to England and
Speaker 2: talking about the derogatory use of the term gay, I mean,
Speaker 2: I went to a boys school and I think about
Speaker 2: all the guys at my school that got so bullied
Speaker 2: because we went to a boys school as well. And
Speaker 2: now when I look at how many guys in my
Speaker 2: school were gay but never came out until years later,
Speaker 2: some of them at university, some of them much later
Speaker 2: than that, and I'm just like, wow, they never even
Speaker 2: had the opportunity because they thought immediately that if they
Speaker 2: were to say that at our school, they were going
Speaker 2: to get bullied for it. And so I get how
Speaker 2: real that was at that time especially, and of course
Speaker 2: there are still parts of the world where that's still
Speaker 2: the case. But how early were you sure about that
Speaker 2: being part of your identity and were you consciously masking
Speaker 2: it or was it still a discovery of your identity
Speaker 2: or was it like, oh, I know that's true and
Speaker 2: I'm going to hide it now, as you said, you
Speaker 2: had to abandon yourself, or was it like I don't
Speaker 2: really know what that is and I'm discovering and figuring
Speaker 2: it out. How was it for.
Speaker 1: You as to this A lot? It took me a
Speaker 1: while to understand because in the beginning I didn't know myself.
Speaker 1: I came out in twenty six and all of people
Speaker 1: said to me, well, you must have already known, like
Speaker 1: and just hit it, And I wasn't aware that I
Speaker 1: did know. And I'll tell you now, Jay, like, the
Speaker 1: brain is such a powerful tool, and shame is such
Speaker 1: a powerful tool. And when I think back to that
Speaker 1: eight year old kid that just felt different and I
Speaker 1: had to hide it, like, I feel so sad for
Speaker 1: that little guy, because it really did abandon myself and
Speaker 1: I think I just I shut it out. I didn't
Speaker 1: even allow myself to think about it. It was before sexuality.
Speaker 1: I was even thinking about having sex, so anything like that,
Speaker 1: I just knew it was bad and I just pushed
Speaker 1: it away. So I went through my life, like I said,
Speaker 1: trying to just be normal, and as far as I
Speaker 1: was aware, it was fine. And it's not until you
Speaker 1: really you have these moments where you stop at life.
Speaker 1: Life makes you stop sometimes if you don't choose to
Speaker 1: stop and look in the mirror, sometimes life makes you
Speaker 1: stop it's a you know, something, you losing a family member,
Speaker 1: it can be anything. But sometimes you have to sit
Speaker 1: with yourself. And I don't know that ever allowed myself
Speaker 1: to know. I never had the space to express that.
Speaker 1: And that's why I'm hoping with like the book, that
Speaker 1: I can help someone that feels not seen and someone
Speaker 1: that is going through a hard time, or someone that
Speaker 1: is successful but miserable when they get home, because I
Speaker 1: never got that opportunity and finding that makes such a difference.
Speaker 1: It makes a difference in the job you do, the
Speaker 1: relationships you have, the friendships you have, and just generally
Speaker 1: who you are as a person.
Speaker 2: I think that's what people don't realize. I love that
Speaker 2: point just made that it actually impacts all other parts
Speaker 2: of yourself crazy, because it is your identity. It's crazy,
Speaker 2: it's who you are. And so if you're hiding that part,
Speaker 2: you're hiding all these other skills and talents and abilities.
Speaker 2: I know because one of my closest friends came out
Speaker 2: when he was thirty. Yeah, and he just and he
Speaker 2: grew up in a Muslim background, and so that was
Speaker 2: extremely hard for me because of the religious pressure, and
Speaker 2: it was such a journey for him and he thinks
Speaker 2: about who he became after that age, and it's almost
Speaker 2: like everything went in its favor after that. Yeah, Whereas
Speaker 2: up until that point it always felt like everything was
Speaker 2: working against him. But he, like you, also felt that
Speaker 2: he had to hide and you know, not be honest
Speaker 2: with himself.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think my whole life changed when I authentically
Speaker 1: and it took a few years to get to that point.
Speaker 1: It took ver a bit, took understanding, it took being
Speaker 1: with myself. But part of that was moving to LA
Speaker 1: And I think the great thing about moving to LA
Speaker 1: was that I didn't feel any shame because I'm also
Speaker 1: a dad and I hold that very close to my heart.
Speaker 1: My biggest focus in life is being a great dad
Speaker 1: to two kids, and any parent out that can connect
Speaker 1: to that, I will always put them before myself. The
Speaker 1: difficulty with shame is it's very different, difficult to heal.
Speaker 1: When I wasn't just feeling my shame, I was feeling
Speaker 1: shame for them. I was feeling shame. Yeah, I felt
Speaker 1: a lot of shame and moving to America, the part
Speaker 1: of it that became easier is because an introduction could
Speaker 1: be like, hey, I'm Chris and it's like I'm gay,
Speaker 1: you know, and no one blinks an eyelid. But where
Speaker 1: I grew up in the town where people knew me, Hey,
Speaker 1: I'm Chris, and it's like I didn't feel confident to
Speaker 1: say I was gay, and if I did, they'd be like, oh,
Speaker 1: he used to be he's got a family, he's got kids,
Speaker 1: Oh my god, you know, and there was always this
Speaker 1: secret conversation. It was just this It felt dark still,
Speaker 1: it still felt like people wanted to keep putting me
Speaker 1: back in the box. So, you know, it was kind
Speaker 1: of part of moving to America was at the first
Speaker 1: time that I could experience what it was really like
Speaker 1: to come out without all of the outside noise because
Speaker 1: I'd already made a life on myself. Yeah, and you know,
Speaker 1: I get it. People. When there's a secret, people want
Speaker 1: to talk. People love to you know, when there's a secret,
Speaker 1: people want to know the answer to it. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Talk to me about that time in your life, because
Speaker 2: when you started dating the mother of your children. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and that experience you were married for like ten years,
Speaker 2: nine years, nine years, Yes, it was it's a long
Speaker 2: period of time.
Speaker 1: We were never married, but we were yeah, nine years
Speaker 1: and committed yeah, I mean it was amazing. I generally
Speaker 1: believe I was meant to meet Kate. We were together
Speaker 1: for nine years and it was magical. Nine years. It
Speaker 1: was great. I had two kids, and I honestly, for
Speaker 1: I had it all figured out. I remember at the weekend,
Speaker 1: I'd be doing I'd be doing the man stay, I'll
Speaker 1: be painting the fence, I'd be like fixing things. You know.
Speaker 1: I was just doing all the things that I thought
Speaker 1: I was supposed to do as a man. And when
Speaker 1: I did realize I was gay, I mean, god, it
Speaker 1: came crashing down.
Speaker 2: Before we dive into the next moment, let's hear from
Speaker 2: our sponsors and back to our episode. What do you
Speaker 2: think it was about that moment that allowed you to
Speaker 2: be conscious that you were, like you said, for so long,
Speaker 2: you were hiding it, you were suppressing it, you were
Speaker 2: putting aside. You're doing all the quote unquote things you're
Speaker 2: meant to do as a man. What was it that
Speaker 2: brought that up for you? When you felt like like
Speaker 2: you just said, you felt like you'd figured it all out.
Speaker 2: You're two beautiful kids.
Speaker 1: You loved, you know, because from the age of a
Speaker 1: to the age of twenty seven that held my breath
Speaker 1: and I could finally excel. I couldn't hold my breath anymore.
Speaker 1: I couldn't do it. I tried, I kept trying to,
Speaker 1: like and I I couldn't. And once I put my
Speaker 1: tiptoes into breathing, and how good that felt, I couldn't
Speaker 1: stop it. But then came the shame of, like, well,
Speaker 1: I'm going to hurt all these people I've created this
Speaker 1: life with. So I kept pulling back until I just
Speaker 1: had to let go.
Speaker 2: How long did you carry that that shame of? I know,
Speaker 2: but I don't want to tell them because it would
Speaker 2: hurt them and break what they've built.
Speaker 1: Once I knew, I had an experience which I talk
Speaker 1: a bit about in the book, and it wasn't anything heavy,
Speaker 1: but I was, I said, when I was a kid,
Speaker 1: I was sat down. I grew up in northern England.
Speaker 1: There wasn't middle to north, and it was kind of there.
Speaker 1: Being gay wasn't really a thing. There was a gay
Speaker 1: pub in town, but it was on the outskirts and
Speaker 1: the men that went were quite flamboyant. It wasn't really
Speaker 1: spoken about. Princess Diana was on the news shaking a
Speaker 1: man with AIDS without gloves, and that was headline news
Speaker 1: because you know, the like could she get AIDS? And
Speaker 1: I'm shaking this man's hand. People didn't know enough about it,
Speaker 1: and they knew about AIDS, and it was kind of
Speaker 1: told to me that gay enda AIDS, so I was
Speaker 1: also fearful of that. One I was prone to OZD like,
Speaker 1: I just felt very conscious of that. So I had
Speaker 1: an experience that I kind of met someone. We became friends,
Speaker 1: and it never really went beyond friendship, but he told
Speaker 1: me one day that he was HIV positive. I remember
Speaker 1: he didn't even live near me. We had a phone call,
Speaker 1: conversation daily, but I became friends with him, and it
Speaker 1: was the first time that I was kind of like,
Speaker 1: I like this guy, like I really like him, and
Speaker 1: I kind of was trying to understand it. So it
Speaker 1: was a slow process. And then he told me you
Speaker 1: had HIV and I was like, well, I can't. I'm good.
Speaker 1: I'm absolutely good. So I literally just cut it off.
Speaker 1: And even though I hadn't done anything, I felt like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, cod I get a HVI because this
Speaker 1: is a thing I don't know. It was really really scary,
Speaker 1: and then I guess over the process of the next year.
Speaker 1: I think once, like I say, you kind of put
Speaker 1: your foot in the water. It was just it was
Speaker 1: hard to go back. And then once I actually did
Speaker 1: meet someone, yeah, that was it. There was there was
Speaker 1: no going back.
Speaker 2: That period of your life, I can imagine is when
Speaker 2: you look back at it now, it's probably one of
Speaker 2: the most difficult times because it's almost like.
Speaker 1: It got way harder.
Speaker 2: Yeah, which we'll get to. But that moment of I
Speaker 2: can finally be honest with myself, but I don't know
Speaker 2: how to be honest with the people that I love.
Speaker 2: That's like a there's one thing of like, oh wow,
Speaker 2: I can finally be honest with myself.
Speaker 1: That's huge.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but then it's always harder when you're trying to
Speaker 2: express to the other people. I imagine, what was it
Speaker 2: like telling your partner at the time.
Speaker 1: I told initially my partner, and that was a process,
Speaker 1: and I also had to respect that she needed to
Speaker 1: go through her own grief.
Speaker 2: Were you aware of that at the time when you
Speaker 2: told them? Yeah, well that's mature.
Speaker 1: Because I loved her, I really loved her, and I
Speaker 1: didn't want to be gay. I didn't want to be different.
Speaker 1: I went back to being the kid at school. But
Speaker 1: once I told her, I kind of just went on automatic.
Speaker 1: I told my family and everyone needed to process it
Speaker 1: the way they needed to process it, and I just
Speaker 1: had to be respectful of that. You have to let
Speaker 1: people go through their own grief. I can't control their emotions,
Speaker 1: nor do I want to. I think it's really important
Speaker 1: for people to feel and go through the process. But
Speaker 1: the hardest part was telling my kids, and I think
Speaker 1: mentally for me, I couldn't really ever get my head
Speaker 1: around that. I've never actually spoke about this. I didn't
Speaker 1: think I ever would, but I do feel ready. I
Speaker 1: feel ready to talk to people because I feel like,
Speaker 1: hopefully it will help someone else that's going through a
Speaker 1: difficult time. But my job as a dad, I felt,
Speaker 1: was to protect my kids. Going through what I went
Speaker 1: through as a kid, being bullied was horrible. My childhood
Speaker 1: was a lot of memories are not great ones. So
Speaker 1: the idea of bringing that to my kids was really
Speaker 1: painful to feel that they would get botheried because their
Speaker 1: dad was gay. I know the things that kids say
Speaker 1: and how I mean they can be, and I just
Speaker 1: didn't want them to ever have that shame that was
Speaker 1: put on me, onto them, and in a way, I
Speaker 1: felt like I felt like a disease. I felt like
Speaker 1: it was like a cancer. I wanted to clear it
Speaker 1: out of me. I was like, if I could just
Speaker 1: get rid of that, then I could just be a
Speaker 1: normal dad for them, because that's what they need, you know.
Speaker 1: I just, I just I felt so selfish putting myself first.
Speaker 1: So eventually people started to talk, as they do. It
Speaker 1: was a small town, and me and Kate decided to
Speaker 1: tell the kids, so I couldn't even say the words.
Speaker 1: And I think maybe a lot of people can relate
Speaker 1: to this. Initially, saying the words I'm gay is a
Speaker 1: challenge because once those words are out, it's done. I
Speaker 1: actually didn't say it. The mother of Kate's mum actually
Speaker 1: said it. And then I just saw these two beautiful
Speaker 1: kids who were like six and eight, and they were
Speaker 1: just they were upset because they knew why I was upset,
Speaker 1: and they were confused, and all of a sudden, I
Speaker 1: just felt like I'd I felt like I just messed
Speaker 1: their life up, and I felt like I'd failed as
Speaker 1: a dad because my job was to protect them and
Speaker 1: if anyone ever hurt them, I would protect them. But
Speaker 1: I was the one hurt in them, and I couldn't
Speaker 1: understand that. I also just couldn't hide it was gay anymore.
Speaker 1: I was so exhausted from it. So after telling them
Speaker 1: it just a confusion killed me. And my son said
Speaker 1: to me, you know it, does that mean you're going
Speaker 1: to you know, have your arm like this? Like because
Speaker 1: he was so young and innocent and kids at school
Speaker 1: would do there was already things said, you know, And
Speaker 1: I was like, no, you know, I'm just me. I'm
Speaker 1: the same. I'm not going to change, but that are
Speaker 1: you going to change? Are you going to be different? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I kind of just shut down and I left. And
Speaker 1: I left not because I was three, but I left
Speaker 1: because I felt so much shame. And I got in
Speaker 1: the car. I drove for a couple of hours. I
Speaker 1: drove for quite a long time, felt like five minutes.
Speaker 1: I just felt like I needed to get away from them.
Speaker 1: I just I felt like I was contagious. And I sorry,
Speaker 1: I've not really spoke about this before, so to be sorry. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So I I felt like it would be better for
Speaker 1: them to have a dad that was dead than a
Speaker 1: dad that was gay, and so I I brought some
Speaker 1: pain colors. I brought a bottle of alcohol and I
Speaker 1: checked myself into a hotel, and the whole time I
Speaker 1: had a picture of the kids. It was like this
Speaker 1: computer case it had and the smiling on it. They
Speaker 1: wrote a message on it. It was silly, it was
Speaker 1: just a little computer case, but I was just holding
Speaker 1: it the whole time. I slept with it a lot
Speaker 1: throughout that period, just I just wanted to protect them,
Speaker 1: you know. And I took the tablets and drank the alcoholic.
Speaker 1: I rank itate and I apologized for the pain that
Speaker 1: I've caused, and I closed my eyes and I just thought,
Speaker 1: this is it. This is it. I won't hurt anyone anymore,
Speaker 1: or you know, I won't bring any more pain, and
Speaker 1: maybe I'll stop hurting too. The rest was a blur.
Speaker 1: I remember sirens and stuff, and I just then remember
Speaker 1: being in hospital and I could hear voices, and I
Speaker 1: remember thinking, is this it? You know? Where am I?
Speaker 1: And something changed then, and it was really powerful because
Speaker 1: I realized I couldn't hate myself anymore than I had,
Speaker 1: and I couldn't try and stop being gay anymore. I've
Speaker 1: done everything with my powers my whole life, creating a
Speaker 1: different world that I thought everyone wanted me to be
Speaker 1: and take all the boxes, but I knew I had
Speaker 1: to reveal the truth. And so in that moment it
Speaker 1: was really quiet. It wasn't dramatic, but I just remember thinking, well,
Speaker 1: what about if I just surrender? What about if I'm
Speaker 1: just gay and I just be that? And I don't
Speaker 1: really know where to begin with it, and I don't
Speaker 1: know where it's going to lead me, but it has
Speaker 1: to be better than what I've been doing. And in
Speaker 1: that moment something changed. I decided to live. And I
Speaker 1: think that's the moment where I went back to that
Speaker 1: eight year old boy standing at the window and allowed
Speaker 1: himself to be seen. That was the beginning of it already.
Speaker 1: So although it was one of the darkest nights of
Speaker 1: my life, I think it was a turning point. And
Speaker 1: like I say, it's not something I take lightly. I
Speaker 1: think it's not something I've ever spoken about. But I
Speaker 1: hope other people in watching this can maybe feel heard
Speaker 1: or seen and find the help they need, or even
Speaker 1: maybe it's a parent that's struggling and understanding their child
Speaker 1: to understand how dark it can be when you're left
Speaker 1: in silence and when you don't get to express who
Speaker 1: you truly are, or even if it's the kid that
Speaker 1: did the bullying at school, and see how painful it
Speaker 1: can really be for someone.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Chris, thank you for sharing that, because it's.
Speaker 1: I just didn't feel like I could write a book
Speaker 1: talking about my story. I think there's this perception of
Speaker 1: me that people see on social media, and it looks
Speaker 1: like my life together, it looks like I look pretty polished.
Speaker 1: I think people tell me that, you know, I'm going
Speaker 1: to work with amazing women, you know, and life looks glamorous,
Speaker 1: and from the outside it probably looks like I've got
Speaker 1: it all together. But there's a very different side. And
Speaker 1: that's what I want to talk to people about, and
Speaker 1: that's what I want to help people with. And it's
Speaker 1: not just about my journey. It's about helping people realize theirs.
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, I really appreciate you sharing it because we're
Speaker 2: seeing males suicide rise.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: We know that carrying around emotions like shame and guilt
Speaker 2: for long periods of time is not healthy for someone,
Speaker 2: even if they don't, you know, try to commit suicide.
Speaker 2: And I think having people like yourself who've been there,
Speaker 2: who are open enough to share how you get there,
Speaker 2: and it's needed right now. It's needed right now help
Speaker 2: a lot of men. Yeah, a lot of people, but
Speaker 2: definitely a lot of men right now who need it
Speaker 2: as well.
Speaker 1: And I think also just like stereotypes and boxes that
Speaker 1: we love to put people in, it's like you don't
Speaker 1: have to fit. Particularly I'm old. I think you are
Speaker 1: who you are and you should have time and space
Speaker 1: to develop that and what it is. And I'm someone
Speaker 1: that spent my life trying to avoid that, and then
Speaker 1: I had to do the really painful part of them
Speaker 1: picking it and finding out what I'd created for everyone
Speaker 1: else and what was truly me. When I did that,
Speaker 1: there was a piece to it.
Speaker 2: Were you relieved when you were up in the hospital.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I don't think I ever wanted to die.
Speaker 1: I wanted to kill the thing that I felt that
Speaker 1: was destructing my life and the thing that made me
Speaker 1: feel different as a kid, the thing that made me
Speaker 1: not blend in with all the other boys and girls,
Speaker 1: like I wasn't like all the regular guys, and I
Speaker 1: wanted to not be different. Now I love being different,
Speaker 1: you know, as an adult now I've realized the beauty
Speaker 1: and being different. It's so a special thing to be
Speaker 1: able to have that talent to be different, to let
Speaker 1: it grow, and when it's not suppressed, my God, like
Speaker 1: the whole world can change. My whole whole world really
Speaker 1: did change. And it can be such a beautiful thing.
Speaker 1: And I'm not talking about success. I'm talking about inner happiness.
Speaker 1: You know, there's a lot of successful people out there
Speaker 1: and they're not happy. You know a lot of people
Speaker 1: some unsuccessful people and they're not happy. I think true
Speaker 1: happiness on the inside is really I don't know, it's
Speaker 1: a really powerful tool.
Speaker 2: How did your family react to obviously come into the hospital?
Speaker 2: The kids like now, it was almost like there was
Speaker 2: in that time the first shock that you're gay, and
Speaker 2: then there's this shock of nearly losing you or being
Speaker 2: a critical situation. How did you how did Katie, the
Speaker 2: kids and family?
Speaker 1: Really Yeah, I think there was really everyone understanding. I
Speaker 1: don't think anyone really knew. I think everyone was just
Speaker 1: trying to get through it because everyone's trying to process
Speaker 1: it themselves. I think everyone had questions and everyone's like,
Speaker 1: well did he always know? And like was that my fault?
Speaker 1: And did I say something when he was a kid,
Speaker 1: and when I told him about like gay men and
Speaker 1: sexualiy and I think a lot of people were questioning,
Speaker 1: I don't know, did they know, did they see something?
Speaker 1: And I think everyone was just trying to process something.
Speaker 1: It didn't really matter to me in terms of like
Speaker 1: that was the time I came back to myself. So
Speaker 1: there was there was a change in my brain where
Speaker 1: I really just was like, I'm going to allow myself
Speaker 1: to be and I'm going to be respectable of everyone else,
Speaker 1: and I'm going to be supportive because it's just who
Speaker 1: I am. But I'm going to be, you know, I'm
Speaker 1: going to be I'm going to allow Chris to be
Speaker 1: and I'm a gay man and that's it.
Speaker 2: And I imagine at that time the shame that had
Speaker 2: been hanging over obviously the kids went back to school,
Speaker 2: they were now hearing the same stuff. It's almost like
Speaker 2: you said, everyone wants the answer to the secret. Now
Speaker 2: the secret's out totally.
Speaker 1: People love a secret. Yeah, people love gossip. You know,
Speaker 1: I get it, like we all do it. Everyone loves like,
Speaker 1: oh yeah, you know. But I think once the secret's out,
Speaker 1: people are like, oh, well, you know, it's just not
Speaker 1: as exciting. It's all right, well.
Speaker 2: And felt that kind of able to move on from it.
Speaker 1: Absolutely and listen, it wasn't an overnight sense it was,
Speaker 1: it was just a mental change for me. I still
Speaker 1: had to through the process.
Speaker 2: What was that process like, because it's like, like you said,
Speaker 2: you bottled it up for that many years. It comes
Speaker 2: out in this extremely dark way for you personally, shame, guilt.
Speaker 2: Thankfully you're still alive. But what did that process actually
Speaker 2: look like? Because like you just said, and I don't
Speaker 2: want anyone to hear this and go, yeah, oh wow,
Speaker 2: one night just change, you know, Like I don't want
Speaker 2: them to have that perspective either, because that isn't true
Speaker 2: from the book. And I'm excited for people to read.
Speaker 2: I'm encouraging people to read the book because I think
Speaker 2: when they engage with it and you're sharing of it,
Speaker 2: they'll get the context that you won't be able to realize, Like,
Speaker 2: this wasn't an overnight change, It wasn't a one night switch.
Speaker 2: But walk me through the process you had to go
Speaker 2: through over the next few months and years to rebuild,
Speaker 2: because you said you almost came home to yourself totally,
Speaker 2: but then you had to build this new house.
Speaker 1: Like anything starting anything new, the unknown, and so I
Speaker 1: think I took every day as it came, every hour
Speaker 1: as it came. I've always been a big believer in
Speaker 1: therapy and he's so helpful to be able to and
Speaker 1: I think it's I also think it's something that if
Speaker 1: someone is struggling, that if you can, and you have
Speaker 1: the resources too, you should use because I think it's
Speaker 1: a really healthy way of being able to be and
Speaker 1: really be in the moment and really feel things. And
Speaker 1: I think working with therapists to try and understand, even
Speaker 1: making sure my kids were okay with them seeing a
Speaker 1: therapist and Kate, did you know. I think everyone was
Speaker 1: on their own journey. But personally, for me, it was
Speaker 1: just taking every day as it came. And there were
Speaker 1: good days and there were bad days, and there were
Speaker 1: days I still felt really shameful, and there were days
Speaker 1: I didn't feel such shameful. But I think, as with anything,
Speaker 1: and when you're grieving something, and I really was grieving
Speaker 1: a loss because I was grieving the loss of people
Speaker 1: I used to be and so in a way it
Speaker 1: was like a death because I was letting go of that,
Speaker 1: I was letting go of this image that I created
Speaker 1: this man that I created and what came with that
Speaker 1: man family, And so then I had to you don't
Speaker 1: have it all figured out. I'll be honest with you, though, Jay,
Speaker 1: I still don't have it all figured out. I wake
Speaker 1: up every day and I'm still figuring out I think
Speaker 1: as humans we are. I'm grateful for that because that
Speaker 1: means I'm always learning and I'm always growing. And if
Speaker 1: I'm growing and that that makes me feel happy because
Speaker 1: I'm alive. Yeah, you know, no one ever has it
Speaker 1: all figured out?
Speaker 2: Me too, I fully agree, I don't.
Speaker 1: I mean people think because you've got a book, or
Speaker 1: because you've had some successful work, or you know, you
Speaker 1: got it all figured out. No one's got it all
Speaker 1: figured out. But I think for me, I've always been
Speaker 1: really interested in other people's journeys and inspiration and understanding
Speaker 1: how someone else took on. And this in my journey
Speaker 1: is not for everyone. Everyone's different and everyone has their
Speaker 1: own journey, but sometimes you can just take something from it.
Speaker 1: And you know, for me, that's why I did the book,
Speaker 1: because I was trying to help people come back to themselves.
Speaker 1: And I don't think I can do that if I'm
Speaker 1: not telling them my story yeah, you know, to say
Speaker 1: I had a really dark moment too. A lot of
Speaker 1: people have had dark moments too.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's brave and important to share it. And
Speaker 2: that's one of the reasons why I've been talking about
Speaker 2: the difference between Western and Eastern ideologies, because in the
Speaker 2: West you have this before and after, so it's like
Speaker 2: I used to be like this, Now I'm healed, i' fit,
Speaker 2: I'm amazing. And the reality is the Eastern worldview would
Speaker 2: say everything's cyclical. You're always two steps forward, three steps back,
Speaker 2: you're always maintaining, you're always sustaining. You don't just it's
Speaker 2: almost like you don't just end up with a six pack.
Speaker 2: It's like that's something that takes to work, and.
Speaker 1: The next week, I'm like, what happened?
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's and that's something that's physical that you
Speaker 2: can see and it's tangible, what to speak of emotional
Speaker 2: grieving and growth, and so that idea of before and
Speaker 2: after it doesn't really exist. It's like before what and
Speaker 2: after what? The reality is you're constantly growing, each and
Speaker 2: every one of us and me included too. I think
Speaker 2: even with the work I do, I definitely carry that
Speaker 2: baggage sometimes of people thinking I'm teaching from the place
Speaker 2: of perfection, and it's like we're not trying to Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's like, actually, I'm trying to do the opposite and
Speaker 2: just trying to be a friend who's nudging you in
Speaker 2: the right direction. And by the way, I do this
Speaker 2: as much for you as I do it for me,
Speaker 2: because the more I talk about these ideas, the more
Speaker 2: and I'm sure you felt that with your book, the
Speaker 2: more you're talking about these ideas, the more responsible you
Speaker 2: feel to actually live them.
Speaker 1: And honestly, I feel like if there was something like
Speaker 1: this when I was a kid, when I was an
Speaker 1: eight year old kid or a twelve year old kid
Speaker 1: at school and I heard someone maybe talking about that experience,
Speaker 1: probably could have saved me going in the direction I
Speaker 1: did and made up a choice, you know, But that's life.
Speaker 2: I'm doing some research for my new book right now,
Speaker 2: and I was researching the I was speaking to the
Speaker 2: head of suicide at Harvard and he told me two
Speaker 2: things that stayed with me. One was that one of
Speaker 2: his friends committed suicide even though he knew his friend
Speaker 2: was the head of suicide at Harvard and never told
Speaker 2: him anything. And so just shows how hard it is
Speaker 2: to even talk about it with someone, even though your
Speaker 2: friend is an expert, and so just because you're a
Speaker 2: therapist or a coach or a guide or it's not
Speaker 2: easy for people to open up about these things.
Speaker 1: No, I've found it incredibly difficult to sort of just
Speaker 1: talk about it. But I hope that in doing so
Speaker 1: that it will help someone else. And it's not to
Speaker 1: say any of the things I've done all right or wrong,
Speaker 1: but it was my journey and it led me to
Speaker 1: where I'm at now. And I think if you can
Speaker 1: take some of the shame away from people struggling in life,
Speaker 1: and you know, I think someone like me, where people
Speaker 1: perceive me to have it all figured out, maybe to
Speaker 1: know that they've not and there's been some really hard
Speaker 1: times in my life enables people to be able to
Speaker 1: talk about theirs too and feel free to be able
Speaker 1: to express them at that and there isn't so much
Speaker 1: shame around it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it doesn't make you weak, Yeah exactly. Yeah, it
Speaker 2: doesn't make you weak that you're having a tough time
Speaker 2: right now, or you're struggling to pay the bills, or
Speaker 2: you're struggling to take care of the family you.
Speaker 1: Love, and everyone's challenge is different, you know, and that's
Speaker 1: the beautiful thing of life.
Speaker 2: Did any men come back from your childhood over time
Speaker 2: that you feel reconcile their relationship with you or from
Speaker 2: the bullies or whatever, bullies or even yeah, bulliese family,
Speaker 2: like anyone that you think was negligent maybe or unaware
Speaker 2: at that time. Did you ever have any good conversations
Speaker 2: with any men as life went on?
Speaker 1: My brother actually is actually recently. We were very different.
Speaker 1: He was in a very different place in his life
Speaker 1: and I was just a kid trying to grow up.
Speaker 1: You know. He was a good ten years old on
Speaker 1: than maybe maybe twelve years he was twelve years older
Speaker 1: than me. He actually met me in London. I was
Speaker 1: there for some shoot and he said I wanted to
Speaker 1: meet and I'm all right, well okay. So we met
Speaker 1: and had dinner and he actually apologized and he sat
Speaker 1: down and he said, you know, I was really shit
Speaker 1: to you. I was really shitty, brother, and I don't
Speaker 1: think I realized how much pain you were in. And
Speaker 1: I think he was in his own pain because everyone's
Speaker 1: got their own journey. And you know, I found forgiveness
Speaker 1: in that. I found forgiveness and it was actually really
Speaker 1: really special. Like I say, that's what I mean. It
Speaker 1: wasn't an overnight thing. This is literally ten years later,
Speaker 1: like my brother's apologizing. But I also I'm mature enough
Speaker 1: and have done the work enough to recognize that he
Speaker 1: was going for a difficult time. He used drugs and
Speaker 1: he was going for his own thing. But you know,
Speaker 1: here's sort of acknowledgment of that still stopped me in
Speaker 1: my tracks and was like, yeah, that was tough, but
Speaker 1: I forgive you, and a forgiveness is also a beautiful thing.
Speaker 1: And letting go and moving on. Yeah, I like me
Speaker 1: to move on. I like to go right through something
Speaker 1: and then let it go, and I think that's a
Speaker 1: beautiful thing. It's brutal, it's really hard, so easy to avoid.
Speaker 1: So many people avoid stuff, complete avoid and completely just
Speaker 1: let's pretend it' snampling. But for me, what works is
Speaker 1: to really feel it and sit in it, because then
Speaker 1: I feel like I can let it go.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, it's really mature to have that worldview
Speaker 2: of recognizing that everyone's going through their journey and their
Speaker 2: pain at the same time as you are. Yeah, And
Speaker 2: it's really hard to compare pains because you can't. They're
Speaker 2: all so unique and everyone's valid. E's got their own journey.
Speaker 2: But to accept that requires a lot of mature and depth.
Speaker 2: But first, here's a quick word from the brands that
Speaker 2: support the show. All right, thank you to our sponsors.
Speaker 2: Now let dive back in. How does it feel now
Speaker 2: that you've said it out loud and talked about it?
Speaker 2: How does that feel in your chest? Hot?
Speaker 1: Well, I mean I probably you could tell as I
Speaker 1: was talking I was getting quite tight chest. If I
Speaker 1: ever even really talked about it, my chest will get
Speaker 1: very tight. I'm grateful for that. I hope I never
Speaker 1: get used to it because it was a very extreme
Speaker 1: thing in my life and I'm an emotional guy. I
Speaker 1: love the people I love, but I've liked not to
Speaker 1: feel shame anymore. And I think part of dealing with
Speaker 1: shame is being able to talk about it, being my technology,
Speaker 1: being able to look at it in the mirror. And
Speaker 1: I felt like sharing that is empowering to me and
Speaker 1: hopefully others. I feel lucky to be able to share
Speaker 1: my journey with other people. Hopefully you know, someone finds
Speaker 1: it interesting or can give them a different perspective on
Speaker 1: their day and in their life. And I've done that
Speaker 1: in like an outward sense of a visual with people
Speaker 1: know that with my job. But I think the internal
Speaker 1: part is just really where it starts, because when you
Speaker 1: marry those together, that's when you have your real power.
Speaker 2: I mean, as we've been talking about this in this journey,
Speaker 2: that none of us are perfect and it still shows up.
Speaker 2: How does how does shame still show up in your
Speaker 2: life today? Like how does it still have that stronghold
Speaker 2: in life?
Speaker 1: I woke up this morning I cannot talk about that.
Speaker 1: I can't talk about that on the podcast, had this
Speaker 1: complete like panic, I woke up this one of and
Speaker 1: my god, I can't talk people think I'm crazy, Like
Speaker 1: that was a really dark time and it was a secret.
Speaker 1: It's a secret. And then I had to stop myself
Speaker 1: and I'm like, ah, it's a secret. It doesn't need
Speaker 1: to be I'm not that person anymore. No one is
Speaker 1: the people that we were in that time. We've all
Speaker 1: moved on and evolved and I'm in a better place
Speaker 1: in my life now. And I think with wisdom comes
Speaker 1: you know, like you being able to educate people and
Speaker 1: share people. That's like me in my head dressing, career, learning,
Speaker 1: all these amazing techniques giving them all to myself. And
Speaker 1: everyone has said to me before, like you really want
Speaker 1: to share your techniques? People might copy you, and I'm like, god,
Speaker 1: I hope they do. I hope they have great hair. Yeah,
Speaker 1: everyone everyone deserves it. I think some new takes. I'm
Speaker 1: onto the next thing. So yeah, I mean, look, we're
Speaker 1: human beings. Like I said, none of us have it
Speaker 1: figured out. But I also have great people around me
Speaker 1: to be like Chris, remember you're helping others And I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's what I want to do.
Speaker 2: You know, as your journey grew, did you find you
Speaker 2: share these stories with clients and talk to people that
Speaker 2: you were close to And no one.
Speaker 1: Really knows this about me too, So I think probably
Speaker 1: a lot of people might, you know, be like, okay,
Speaker 1: I didn't know that part of you because, let's face it,
Speaker 1: in human interaction, most of the time, it's like, Hi,
Speaker 1: hell are you look great? You know you can go
Speaker 1: oh yeah, and then we move on. We don't always
Speaker 1: open up the blinds and you know, pull people in
Speaker 1: because it's difficult to do. You know, even on social media,
Speaker 1: people say to me, oh, you know you like you
Speaker 1: have this Polish social media, you bring people in more.
Speaker 1: It's difficult sometimes to do that when it's at a
Speaker 1: camera in front of you, and I think I've always
Speaker 1: been very one on one. That's what I do. But
Speaker 1: that's why I wanted to package it up and put
Speaker 1: it into something that people could read and take in
Speaker 1: them themselves.
Speaker 2: I want to know what happened because this was all
Speaker 2: still while you were back home in England. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: so this isn't even the career journey that we see
Speaker 2: now that hadn't even begun then. Yeah, in terms of
Speaker 2: the public part of it. How soon after did you
Speaker 2: end up moving to America and did everything shift?
Speaker 1: I stayed in I moved to America when I was
Speaker 1: thirty one, so it was four years later. And during
Speaker 1: that time, I started to travel backwards and forwards. I
Speaker 1: was kind of commuting backwards and forwards. I started working
Speaker 1: with an artist and you know, they travel around. I
Speaker 1: was kind of doing different types of hairdressing work. I
Speaker 1: remember I got a call once I was in London
Speaker 1: and I had an email actually that came through and
Speaker 1: it was from Jalo's team and I remember thinking, oh wow,
Speaker 1: but it was too much to kind of take in.
Speaker 1: I was like, it's like, are you available? You know,
Speaker 1: we wanted to see if Chris Appleton was available for
Speaker 1: a Vegas show and I was like, oh, it's interesting.
Speaker 1: And then I thought, well, how does Jalo know who
Speaker 1: I am? It was the beginning of social media and
Speaker 1: I was posting, not really know what I'm doing, but
Speaker 1: I was just posting all different hairstars I was doing,
Speaker 1: so I guess when I look back, my brand quite
Speaker 1: quickly was apparent. I was always changing up. I'm not
Speaker 1: your beachy wave kind of guy. I like to do
Speaker 1: a look, do the next one, move on, that's next.
Speaker 1: I was very excited by hair and I was just
Speaker 1: posting all that, so I kind of felt what was cool?
Speaker 1: But I'm in England and that's Hollywood. I sart the
Speaker 1: land of dreams. You know, it's far, far, far away,
Speaker 1: and they're not going to fly me out, so all right,
Speaker 1: well I just left it and I thought, maybe this
Speaker 1: is just like a Maybe it's like a fake email.
Speaker 1: You know, you get a lot of random emails, Hey
Speaker 1: is that madam? You've won ten? And I'm like, oh
Speaker 1: how about you know I haven't replied into them anymore,
Speaker 1: but for when I was younger I used to. So
Speaker 1: I left it and a few months later I got
Speaker 1: another email. I thought, well, maybe this is a thing, maybe,
Speaker 1: like maybe I could go to LA you know, it
Speaker 1: seemed like the big shining star, and that's where a
Speaker 1: lot of stars are, and I loved the excitement. As
Speaker 1: a kid, I was always really sort of mesmerized by
Speaker 1: the power of transformation. Back then it was Madonna, you know,
Speaker 1: she would have a different look per album, and I
Speaker 1: always loved how each look. Really it started a trend.
Speaker 1: People would start to wear it in the streets and
Speaker 1: it was like a whole vibe. So for well, maybe
Speaker 1: I'll go to LA. So I pretty much decided to
Speaker 1: do it. I packed two suitcases. I had a whole
Speaker 1: apartment in London that I'd worked very hard for, small,
Speaker 1: basement one, but nevertheless it was mine. And I packed
Speaker 1: two suitcases and I moved moved to LA.
Speaker 2: And without even a plan.
Speaker 1: No, you have a dream, No nothing, I had a dream.
Speaker 2: Man was I was like, how many followers did you
Speaker 2: have this time?
Speaker 1: Four or five thousands?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 2: Oh wow?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, really early days. But I did have a
Speaker 1: hope and I for what's the worst that could happen.
Speaker 1: I'll come back if it doesn't work. So I remember
Speaker 1: I moved to America for the first three or four months,
Speaker 1: sending to do anything. I'd spent all my money. ELI
Speaker 1: is really expensive, and I remember thinking I'm gonna have
Speaker 1: to go back home. And then I got a call
Speaker 1: to do Christinea Wherever's hair on the Voice, which I
Speaker 1: speak a little bit about in the book. It was
Speaker 1: an experience that didn't go so well. It was like
Speaker 1: my one opportunity and it seemed to go very wrong.
Speaker 2: You felt you didn't it went wrong to go right.
Speaker 1: I mean, I was such an excited guy. I'm like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm going to do this. I'm going to do my thing.
Speaker 1: It's the Voice. Everyone watches the Voice, but we have
Speaker 1: to understand this. When you live in the UK, it's
Speaker 1: like this many people see it. When you live in
Speaker 1: the US, it's like the world sees it. It just it
Speaker 1: was bigger. Everything was bigger. And I remember going to
Speaker 1: the Voice and there was like three hours to do
Speaker 1: glam and the makeup artist went in inside the trailer
Speaker 1: and I just sat outside. So I was like, okay,
Speaker 1: I'll just wait for a bit, and then I went
Speaker 1: by and I was like, well, maybe she don't need
Speaker 1: too much done to a hair, you know. And then
Speaker 1: two hours went by and I'm like, well maybe, like
Speaker 1: the hair's probably done and I'm just going to be
Speaker 1: finessing it, you know. And then the last twenty minutes
Speaker 1: before the live show, I'm like, I mean, so I'll
Speaker 1: just go home, and they called me in, so I thought, well,
Speaker 1: you know, she definitely got a hair done. It's gonna
Speaker 1: be good. Right twenty minutes, I mean, what else can
Speaker 1: it be? So I'll go in. And it wasn't good.
Speaker 1: It wasn't done. It was ready to be done. So
Speaker 1: she's like, what do you want to do? And I
Speaker 1: was like, well, or what I really want to do?
Speaker 1: It's two hours to do? Yeah, but whatever we got
Speaker 1: to waiting for.
Speaker 2: You to go in or no. No, I think she was.
Speaker 1: Just like doing make up, probably got chatting and there
Speaker 1: was no will intention really, it was just like whatever,
Speaker 1: you know, like you're in the chair every day, you know.
Speaker 1: And then I went in, so I did that thing
Speaker 1: the headressers do where you stop moving the hair around
Speaker 1: if you ever sat in a chair, and the headress
Speaker 1: was kind of like, we're just kind of touching it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it means we don't know what we're doing it just
Speaker 1: we're kind of just like hoping something's going to happen.
Speaker 1: So I said to her, like, would you if you
Speaker 1: ever try to wis? I thought that would be great
Speaker 1: because it'd be fast, and she's like, I don't like
Speaker 1: wigs somehow, of course you don't like wiggs. And then
Speaker 1: I really lost myself and I was like, why would
Speaker 1: you like anything I've got to do? Like you see me,
Speaker 1: you see the little boy and standing in the wind,
Speaker 1: you see little Chris, Like, what am I doing it?
Speaker 1: I'm a joke. I'm a joke, Like why I am it?
Speaker 1: And I felt like that shame again and I felt small,
Speaker 1: so small, and I just had this moment. It was
Speaker 1: actually the mother of my kids, Kate, who we are
Speaker 1: still best friends and she has always been so supportive
Speaker 1: throughout my career. I called her on the way and
Speaker 1: she said to me, look, Chris, if you don't make
Speaker 1: this work, you're going to have to come home because
Speaker 1: I have responsibility and my dad, I have the kids,
Speaker 1: you know, And I remember you think if I don't
Speaker 1: make this work, we I have to go home. So
Speaker 1: I thought you know what, Let me do me, and
Speaker 1: if she doesn't like it, that's cool. We're just not
Speaker 1: a match. But if I don't do me and do everything,
Speaker 1: I know, I'm thirty one, I've spent my whole life
Speaker 1: learning this craft. If I don't do me and walk away,
Speaker 1: I'll always kick myself. So I said, you know what,
Speaker 1: you've never tried more weeks, Let's try it. She was like,
Speaker 1: all right. So I put it on the head and
Speaker 1: she was like, oh, and I'd finessed wigs. I got
Speaker 1: really good at them because I used to work with
Speaker 1: cancer patients and and all these little tricks I kind
Speaker 1: of like from one area of my life then turned
Speaker 1: into making me good at it for stars. And so
Speaker 1: I put it on ahead and there was no time.
Speaker 1: She was like, I like it. So I put it on.
Speaker 1: It was like no time. She literally got up and
Speaker 1: run off onto the onto the show, and then she's
Speaker 1: on live TV. And you know, that was the time
Speaker 1: of social media. Because I was also very nervous because well,
Speaker 1: everyone's going to have an opinion on this, and when
Speaker 1: it's good, it's great, and when it's bad it's not.
Speaker 1: When it's bad, you'll know about it.
Speaker 2: It's good, it's okay.
Speaker 1: Bad, it's bad. So I remember she came off the
Speaker 1: stage and she it was like a little break and
Speaker 1: she was talking to someone like this, and she looked
Speaker 1: over at me and she went, everyone likes your wig,
Speaker 1: and then just carried on talking. And in that moment
Speaker 1: I knew that and it was great, Like she looked great,
Speaker 1: and then we worked together. You know, at the beginning,
Speaker 1: you look right. I mean, I don't want people to
Speaker 1: think I am being arrogant in telling that story, because no,
Speaker 1: I'd put so much of my whole life into my craft.
Speaker 1: I wanted to learn it inside out, upside down, left
Speaker 1: to right. I knew every aspect of her for me
Speaker 1: to be able to be able to stand there and
Speaker 1: know that it was the right thing to do. I
Speaker 1: wasn't being pushy or anything. I just knew that this
Speaker 1: was right. And therefore, if it didn't work, it's like
Speaker 1: a relationship. If it didn't work, it's okay. Yeah I tried.
Speaker 1: If I don't do what I know to be true
Speaker 1: and good, then I'll always kick myself and I'd hate that.
Speaker 1: And I think part of my coming out story, and
Speaker 1: you know, seeing my full self again was not ever
Speaker 1: letting myself not be seen, and you know, I wanted
Speaker 1: to present as I was and the knowledge I knew
Speaker 1: and that was it was a success story in it,
Speaker 1: and that was the beginning of my career in Hollywood.
Speaker 1: It just rolled on once people saw her hair because
Speaker 1: we did this kind of really icy wig and then
Speaker 1: I did these hoops in the hair. And then I
Speaker 1: started working with Ariana and then Kim and then Adele
Speaker 1: and it was Jlow and it just Katie Perry just
Speaker 1: just evolved. You know, who's doing that? That's cool. You
Speaker 1: know pop stars or artis started to change their hair up,
Speaker 1: so it's like, okay, so it's very fast. That was
Speaker 1: very fast, but I was very prepared because I'd spent
Speaker 1: thirty one years in my life learning it.
Speaker 2: It's really interesting because I'll tell you later I have
Speaker 2: a very similar story of because when I first moved
Speaker 2: out here was everyone's asking me to teach them how
Speaker 2: to meditate or yeah, coaching them or guiding them spiritually
Speaker 2: their life. And so I was meeting a lot of
Speaker 2: people and our work, finally enough is similar, even though
Speaker 2: it's very different. It's very intimate, it's very one on one,
Speaker 2: it's really present in someone's life, and I had a
Speaker 2: similar experience. But the thing I found as well was
Speaker 2: if I was trying to be what they wanted me
Speaker 2: to be, I couldn't be that. I just knew how
Speaker 2: to do what I do, and that's really hard. When
Speaker 2: you feel inexperienced, you feel like an impostor, and you
Speaker 2: feel like you don't belong here, which is how I felt.
Speaker 1: Too, tellally, which we all feel, which we all feel
Speaker 1: when you have success or whatever.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you come and you're like, oh no, but
Speaker 2: this is a bigger world. It's a different world, and
Speaker 2: it's different iballs, and then you're just like, no, actually,
Speaker 2: I have to trust the work that I've done up
Speaker 2: until now. And that doesn't make me egotistic totally. It
Speaker 2: just makes me experienced. I've got to trust the experience
Speaker 2: I have, and most importantly, it makes me me So
Speaker 2: I love that message from your experience there, which was
Speaker 2: if you hadn't done the WIG, it would have just
Speaker 2: looked terrible because you wouldn't have been able to do
Speaker 2: anything in that time, and so you had to trust
Speaker 2: your instincts, which was my experiences. Let's go with the weik. Yeah, totally,
Speaker 2: that's amazing, and then obviously you became such good friends
Speaker 2: with Kim and everyone. It's like, what's been your favorite
Speaker 2: part about building these amazing relationships because the work is
Speaker 2: so intimate, it is so connected to them.
Speaker 1: I'm so grateful to work with everyone who worked, but
Speaker 1: I was just feel very lucky to work in their
Speaker 1: presence because they're amazing on what they do. You know,
Speaker 1: they're an artist in their own and to be a
Speaker 1: part of it, I just feel very grateful. And you know,
Speaker 1: I Kim up become very good friends. We have so
Speaker 1: much respect. But her to see her at close, to
Speaker 1: see you know, the world sees one thing. They see
Speaker 1: Kim Kardashian. I don't really see her like I see
Speaker 1: as Kim, you know, and she is a mother, an
Speaker 1: amazing mother. She is a businesswoman, you know, to see
Speaker 1: what she did with Skims and build that, and just
Speaker 1: to see how she is with everyone that walks in
Speaker 1: the door. You know, she speaks to whether it's an assistant,
Speaker 1: a lighting person, what she's says hello to everyone, introduces herself.
Speaker 1: She doesn't have to, but she's just a great person.
Speaker 1: She's well closed, a really really great person. And so
Speaker 1: I think organically you spend so much time together with
Speaker 1: the people you work with, obviously there's a friendship there.
Speaker 1: And I'm just incredibly grateful I've got to work with
Speaker 1: the people like I do, and you know, see them
Speaker 1: in the light I do, because I guess not everyone does,
Speaker 1: because again, we all make assumptions. Everyone's just seen a
Speaker 1: vision or an image or a quick clip on TV
Speaker 1: or a clip here on social media, and we all
Speaker 1: make assumptions. It's what we do. It's okay. But I
Speaker 1: just feel grateful to have seen a side that maybe
Speaker 1: others haven't.
Speaker 2: And yeah, I'm sure you lot what are people like? Really?
Speaker 2: I'm sure you get that all the time from people
Speaker 2: work at home as were like, oh, what do people
Speaker 2: really like behind the camera? And it's I always find
Speaker 2: it so refreshing to be able to be like, you know,
Speaker 2: a lot of the people you watch, they're actually really
Speaker 2: wonderful and nice. There isn't some big conspiracy, you know,
Speaker 2: it's just they're just wonderful humans who are really nice
Speaker 2: and they're really great at what they do. What they do, yeah,
Speaker 2: what they do, and yeah they treat everyone with respect.
Speaker 2: It and it isn't as juicy as you want it
Speaker 2: to be No. Yeah, so with your journey with that piece,
Speaker 2: it feels like, I mean you said it earlier, were like,
Speaker 2: it only gets harder. Yeah, And it feels like even
Speaker 2: though now you were having this success and that was
Speaker 2: moving fast and you have become the person you've become
Speaker 2: where you are the go to person in the city
Speaker 2: but across the states for all of these people to
Speaker 2: turn to whether the musicians, models, talent. And then I think,
Speaker 2: now it's been like just a year from your divorce again,
Speaker 2: and that was with a very public relationship. Was that
Speaker 2: the first time you'd had a public relationship.
Speaker 1: It was definitely the first time that I had experienced
Speaker 1: that magnitude of people being so invested in my private life.
Speaker 2: What was it like having such a public romantic relationship
Speaker 2: as someone who for years before that, let alone having
Speaker 2: a public relationship, you weren't even in a relationship.
Speaker 1: With a man. This is the first time I've ever
Speaker 1: spoke about this, And I think people have this perception
Speaker 1: from social media, probably like I said that I have
Speaker 1: it together. I work with these amazing people. Life looks glamorous,
Speaker 1: so from the outside it probably looks like I got
Speaker 1: it all together. But the truth is especially during that
Speaker 1: time I was going through a lot of private pain
Speaker 1: and then you go with all the online speculation part
Speaker 1: people say things about you. There's things in the tabloid
Speaker 1: and people that have an opinion on your life, and
Speaker 1: that can be incredibly intense, especially when you're just trying
Speaker 1: to deal with things. I think for me, what really
Speaker 1: helped me was not being okay. And you know, I've
Speaker 1: always believed in therapy, and I work with a therapist
Speaker 1: to really sit in my feelings and really go through
Speaker 1: them and understand how I felt. And that is really
Speaker 1: brutal to go through it. But for me coming out
Speaker 1: the other side, there's a part of you that feels
Speaker 1: like you can you know, reflect on it and move on.
Speaker 1: The biggest lessons I learned is finding alignment. From what
Speaker 1: I do is all about visual you know, It's what
Speaker 1: I've done my whole life, and even what people see
Speaker 1: of me is this visual representation of Chris Heppleton. But
Speaker 1: I think for me there was a real peace in
Speaker 1: finding alignment and in a peace on the inside. And
Speaker 1: like I said, that wasn't an easy process. But I
Speaker 1: think when you align those two, when you genuinely feel
Speaker 1: good on the inside. I think that's when your real
Speaker 1: power comes in place. And I think, you know, just
Speaker 1: because there's a headline about you doesn't necessarily mean you
Speaker 1: have to go and explain to everyone about your life.
Speaker 1: And I think for me, I really wanted to deal
Speaker 1: with it with peace and deal with it my way.
Speaker 1: You know, there's an interesting thing about living in the
Speaker 1: public hige is people have an opinion, and that's okay.
Speaker 1: I don't mind people saying good and bad things, because
Speaker 1: you put yourself out into the arena, you're going to
Speaker 1: get that. But I think for me, as a dad,
Speaker 1: I wanted to protect my kids. I always want to
Speaker 1: do that, and I'm very aware any relationship I go
Speaker 1: into there will be a conversation around that. And so
Speaker 1: I think for me, making sure that I had that
Speaker 1: internal alignment, which I never had my whole life. Finding
Speaker 1: that and being comfortable with that and finding happiness was
Speaker 1: a really beautiful thing. And you know, you can love
Speaker 1: someone and then not be a forever happy ending. I
Speaker 1: think you learned so much from it. I think any
Speaker 1: relationship I've ever gone into, I've learned so much from it.
Speaker 1: I've learned what's important to me in terms of boundaries
Speaker 1: in terms of how I want to be loved, how
Speaker 1: I want to love And that's a beautiful thing because
Speaker 1: it means you're always growing and evolving.
Speaker 2: Before we dive into the next moment, let's hear from
Speaker 2: our sponsors, thanks for taking a moment for that. Now
Speaker 2: back to the discussion. It was you far for a divorce, right,
Speaker 2: like you were the one who yeah, ended it.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: When you look at that in the perspective of the
Speaker 2: whole conversation that we've had and everything you've been through,
Speaker 2: I can imagine that's not easy.
Speaker 1: Again, No, but I think again, like, it doesn't mean
Speaker 1: you don't learn something about yourself. And just because it's
Speaker 1: not forever doesn't mean it didn't mean something. And it's
Speaker 1: a bit like going to buy a house, Like you know,
Speaker 1: we could go and look at houses. I particularly like bright,
Speaker 1: lots of space. I don't like confined and dark. Some
Speaker 1: people do, and that's okay, just not aligned. And I
Speaker 1: think one of the biggest things I realized about any
Speaker 1: relationship I've been into or go into is the importance
Speaker 1: of alignment. And I think for a long time I
Speaker 1: didn't have that, and I think finding that within myself
Speaker 1: has been special. It's about growth. And like I say,
Speaker 1: as long as I'm growing and evolving, then I'm alive
Speaker 1: and that feels great.
Speaker 2: Why do you think you didn't have that alignment? Maybe
Speaker 2: when you met and because it moved fast, right.
Speaker 1: Look, moving fast doesn't always mean you're reckless. I think
Speaker 1: sometimes it means you're hopeful. And I think any relationship
Speaker 1: ever been into, I've gone into with an open heart
Speaker 1: and I have no regrets about that. I think we
Speaker 1: shame people too much for leading with an open heart.
Speaker 1: And I think the sad part about that, especially when
Speaker 1: it does and work out, And I think the sad
Speaker 1: part about that is you can learn to retract and
Speaker 1: protect yourself. But I would rather love and fall than
Speaker 1: to never feel anything at all. And I think I'd
Speaker 1: rather experience something and feel alive than to never put
Speaker 1: my thought out in the water. And I think as
Speaker 1: long as you're growing and evolving from it and things
Speaker 1: don't always go to plan, I think as long as
Speaker 1: you go through it and go through the process of healing,
Speaker 1: I think that's really important, then I think you're doing
Speaker 1: all you can. I don't know. I feel like I
Speaker 1: felt like a responsibility to just really look at everything
Speaker 1: as any situation I've ever been in, I've always tried
Speaker 1: to look back and reflect of, like, do I feel
Speaker 1: like I'm happy with where I'm in my life, how
Speaker 1: it is visually and how I feel internally, And you know,
Speaker 1: if not being able to sit in that and sit
Speaker 1: with it and process it and go through it has
Speaker 1: been a really magical part because it doesn't really matter
Speaker 1: what anyone else says. I know my truth and I
Speaker 1: feel happy. I really value the people that are in
Speaker 1: my life. I have an amazing family. I've worked really
Speaker 1: half of my career. I love the people I've supported family,
Speaker 1: and I'm really grateful for that. Yeah, and ending doesn't
Speaker 1: mean it didn't mean anything. It just means it ended.
Speaker 1: You know, as many relationships have been through my life, friendships, relationships,
Speaker 1: they've ended, and I've tried to learn something each time
Speaker 1: from that experience.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I really appreciate your take on not closing off
Speaker 2: and not kind of building a wall to And you
Speaker 2: are right. We do make people feel bad for falling
Speaker 2: in love or moving fast or whatever it may be.
Speaker 2: And I think also coming from a South Asian culture,
Speaker 2: I've seen the dangers of demonizing divorce yeah, and looking
Speaker 2: at divorce as a failure or a negative thing, when
Speaker 2: actually I look at my community and I'm like, I
Speaker 2: wish this person would get divorced, and this person because
Speaker 2: you know the truth and when they open up to you,
Speaker 2: and so it's almost it's interesting. We've made people feel
Speaker 2: bad for maybe opening their heart, and we also made
Speaker 2: people feel bad for it.
Speaker 1: And I get it. I get it. And people love
Speaker 1: to say like, oh, I knew you know, that would
Speaker 1: happen and that wouldn't last. But I don't know. It's
Speaker 1: just who I am. I go in wholeheartedly into every friendship,
Speaker 1: every relationship, you know, every family member, and I've learned
Speaker 1: to protect myself and also honor myself. Like I say,
Speaker 1: I keep mentioning in alignment, but it really is a
Speaker 1: key part of like my healing is to be able
Speaker 1: to leave a situation when it's not right anymore.
Speaker 2: Yeah, why did it feel again important for you to
Speaker 2: talk about it now as part of this journey with
Speaker 2: the book?
Speaker 1: I think it's just always I think every part of
Speaker 1: my life, if there's something in the tabloid or people
Speaker 1: want to know, I think I would like to sort
Speaker 1: of share my experience. So people can relate and maybe
Speaker 1: not feel so alone. My biggest guy is to make
Speaker 1: people realize that it doesn't matter where you came from.
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter what the situation was that you got
Speaker 1: stuck in. You can move on, you can evolve your life,
Speaker 1: and you can have your come back at any age.
Speaker 1: At any age, it's never too late. So many people
Speaker 1: think it's too late. They're not twenty. They think they're done.
Speaker 1: And I think, I don't know. Some things are for
Speaker 1: a season and some things are forever. Like that's life.
Speaker 1: Life is life. Love is messy. People are complicated. We
Speaker 1: all bring our old trauma and baggage into a relationship,
Speaker 1: whether you're willing to admit it or not. And like
Speaker 1: I said, that's just life. It's about alignment. And if
Speaker 1: something's not aligned, it's okay, whether it's a relationship or
Speaker 1: a friendship or a marriage or whatever it is in
Speaker 1: your life. I think so many people get so fearful
Speaker 1: of not moving on or change. Change is so scary
Speaker 1: to people. Change, I know, by just people changing their hair,
Speaker 1: how terrified that be? Well, people are going to recognize
Speaker 1: me or people are going to I'm like, yeah, that's great,
Speaker 1: see a new you see, actually you that this is
Speaker 1: actually going to be great for you. You have a
Speaker 1: whole new look. You could have been stuck with that
Speaker 1: old hairstyle that you showed me a minute ago, a
Speaker 1: whole life, you know what I mean. You know, it's
Speaker 1: like if you don't know, you don't know at the time,
Speaker 1: I bet you thought you were killing that. This is
Speaker 1: straightened my hair? Why you straight hair? Because someone told
Speaker 1: me to have beautiful natural texture? Someone bringing you back
Speaker 1: to that, like, I don't know. It kind of helps
Speaker 1: you form who you are, whereas maybe you canform to
Speaker 1: society because society said you should straighten curly hair. I
Speaker 1: don't know what the answer. We're all we're all conditioned
Speaker 1: to that, following the lead and following the pack, and
Speaker 1: you don't always have to do that. To not do that,
Speaker 1: you have to have some balls. And like I think
Speaker 1: part of finding that strength is to be able to
Speaker 1: sit with yourself. And I can honestly say any situation
Speaker 1: now that I'm ever in, I can sit with myself
Speaker 1: and I can process it. And it's not always easy.
Speaker 1: In fact, doing the work is brutal. It's never easy.
Speaker 1: But the last thing I feel like I need to
Speaker 1: do is tell everyone because it's my journey, it's my story,
Speaker 1: and you know, when I'm ready, which is why I'm
Speaker 1: doing the book now you know you can share it.
Speaker 2: How did you protect your peace at the time, because
Speaker 2: I imagine it's not easy when you're going through it. Headlines,
Speaker 2: whether they whether you take them seriously or react or not,
Speaker 2: they still hurt and everyone's asking, you know, I know
Speaker 2: what it feels like where you're Sometimes I find that
Speaker 2: when you also have family that's not connected to the industry,
Speaker 2: I'll always get a load of messages as well from
Speaker 2: back home from friends and family. Again, I just saw
Speaker 2: this thing about you know whatever. I just saw that,
Speaker 2: and I'm like, guys, like I'm dealing with it, like
Speaker 2: you know, this is normal in my world now, yeah,
Speaker 2: but it's not normal for them, and I can find
Speaker 2: that that's hard sometimes. Was there any was there any
Speaker 2: of that feeling of that kid looking out the window,
Speaker 2: like was that any of that coming back through this
Speaker 2: as well? Or how did you protect your piece at
Speaker 2: that time?
Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of private pain. Like I say,
Speaker 1: no one is immune to it, but I think for
Speaker 1: me working with like have an amazing therapist I've always
Speaker 1: worked with, and I am so profound the same person
Speaker 1: that you worked with the whole time. Yeah, wow for
Speaker 1: how many years? Maybe the life was since I moved
Speaker 1: to America, So nine years.
Speaker 2: Wow, that's impressive.
Speaker 1: And for me, therapy just enables you to like sit
Speaker 1: in it. Therapy really helps you to do that, and
Speaker 1: therapy really helps you to move on and let go
Speaker 1: of situations that you know no longer serve you.
Speaker 2: So it's been around two years. Now, where's your headspace
Speaker 2: at now?
Speaker 1: I think I just feel grateful to have had the
Speaker 1: experiences I've had in my life and to have the
Speaker 1: knowledge and the wisdom to be able to process them
Speaker 1: and let go of it and move on. And I
Speaker 1: think with every chapter of my life, I'm so grateful
Speaker 1: I had that each and ever experienced good and bad,
Speaker 1: because it led me to where I'm at now. I
Speaker 1: think I'm in a good place, not every day, but
Speaker 1: more so. And I ever have been in my life
Speaker 1: where I've abandoned myself and it's such an easy thing
Speaker 1: to do, and I'm just so aware of doing that now.
Speaker 1: It's like I can't not see it. Once you see yourself,
Speaker 1: you know how many people look in the mirror. Every
Speaker 1: day you look in the mirror, maybe I think the
Speaker 1: average is twelve times a day. They say on average
Speaker 1: is an hour a day from brushing your teeth to
Speaker 1: checking your hair, whatever it is, having your hair, got
Speaker 1: an hour of your day of looking yourself in the mirror.
Speaker 1: So many people see a reflection. Not everyone looks at themselves.
Speaker 1: We just look, but no one actually really looks. And
Speaker 1: part of my job and my journey has been, I guess,
Speaker 1: showing people the real mirror so people can really see
Speaker 1: themselves and be seen, and a lot of people are
Speaker 1: not seen. And when you really see people and you
Speaker 1: break it down to like, why have you always done this?
Speaker 1: Why have you always repeated this behavior? Why have you
Speaker 1: always got yourself into the same situation? Why have you
Speaker 1: got yourself into the same relationship? There's a pattern to it.
Speaker 1: Once you see the pattern, and once you break it down,
Speaker 1: you can change it. That's really empowering. I did it
Speaker 1: with hair for a long time, but I didn't realize
Speaker 1: I was also doing it in an internal way, and
Speaker 1: everyone can relate to that. People saying your hairdress is
Speaker 1: your therapist. I didn't even know I was doing that.
Speaker 1: That's a real part of it. The difference is I
Speaker 1: used to do it with everyone else, and I'd see them,
Speaker 1: and you know what, I never saw myself. I didn't
Speaker 1: see myself for twenty seven years of my life. I
Speaker 1: didn't allow myself to look. It was easier to make
Speaker 1: up people see themselves and for me to look at myself.
Speaker 1: When I saw myself, I could not see it anymore.
Speaker 1: I could not see who I was and who had become.
Speaker 1: And that defining moment of my life changed every decision
Speaker 1: moving forward. And so if in my bad friendship, if
Speaker 1: I'm in a bad relationship, if I'm in a bad
Speaker 1: work environment, I'll leave it if it no longer serves me.
Speaker 1: And if i feel like I've done everything I can
Speaker 1: to be the best person I can and no one's perfect.
Speaker 1: Humans are messy, that's okay. But I've learned to respect
Speaker 1: myself enough to be able to go back to that
Speaker 1: little boy at the window and say, it's okay. You
Speaker 1: don't have to be in that anymore. You don't have
Speaker 1: to feel alone. You can be seen. And I'd hope
Speaker 1: that's what everyone does and maybe finds a bit of
Speaker 1: that when they read the book. And obviously it's called
Speaker 1: your Roots Don't Define You. It's about roots and it's
Speaker 1: a double edged sword, but it is such a powerful
Speaker 1: thing that if you actually stand and look in the
Speaker 1: mirror and look at yourself. This book is for anyone
Speaker 1: that looks back and it's like is this it? Or
Speaker 1: anyone who looks in the mirror and is like, I
Speaker 1: don't really know why I look the way out look,
Speaker 1: or anyone that does have some success but it's so
Speaker 1: miserable or somemartimes, just people thinking there must be more
Speaker 1: to life. Hopefully this will help people feel like they
Speaker 1: can change that and they can have their comeback, and
Speaker 1: they can transform not only the way they look on
Speaker 1: the visual because everyone knows I do that, but if
Speaker 1: they can do it internally, I'm telling you now, their
Speaker 1: life will change. And I hope people can take what
Speaker 1: I land because I feel like everyone deserves to be free. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, I see people in the supermarket, I see
Speaker 1: people walking in the street, and I'm like, I wish
Speaker 1: you knew what I knew. You know, And I think
Speaker 1: it's just really special to be able to share that journey.
Speaker 2: What do you see in the mirror now when you
Speaker 2: look in the mirror you see yourself.
Speaker 1: It depends on the day. Some days it's all right,
Speaker 1: and other days, you know, like I'm still like I
Speaker 1: really should lose five pound to my hair a lot
Speaker 1: good better blonde. You know, you read a comment on
Speaker 1: social media like you look way better blonde, and I'm like, oh,
Speaker 1: you know, it's all right. We all have those voices
Speaker 1: in the head. I hope they're always there. It keeps
Speaker 1: me alive, it keeps me. I just laugh at myself now.
Speaker 1: I think I try and treat most things with humor.
Speaker 1: You know, if I do see a headline about myself,
Speaker 1: or if I do see someone say something, I'll try
Speaker 1: and laugh it off because I was, what else are
Speaker 1: you going to do? You know, It's like I probably
Speaker 1: couldn't have done that before. If I went back ten years,
Speaker 1: I probably couldn't do that. I probably would have gone
Speaker 1: crazy and been like, oh my god. Now I'm like,
Speaker 1: it's okay, it's just someone else's opinion. That's all right.
Speaker 1: You know, I can actually laugh at it, and I'm like, well,
Speaker 1: you know what, probably do look a bit like I
Speaker 1: need to lose five pounds or I don't know, I
Speaker 1: can relate to it. I'll just at least laugh at it.
Speaker 1: We were talking about red carpet pictures. They can make
Speaker 1: you crazy, you know, like you you think pretty good
Speaker 1: about yourself. Yeah, I'm good. You know, I feel like
Speaker 1: I look good. You take a picture?
Speaker 2: Is that what I look like? Man? Tell me about it.
Speaker 1: Oh my god. I saw this picture myself and I
Speaker 1: was like head to toe in brown and for some reason,
Speaker 1: the background was red and my hair was kind of
Speaker 1: the same line a lot like a log and that,
Speaker 1: you know, it's this text shame Aroun'm texting my hold
Speaker 1: I look like a log, and I just laugh at it.
Speaker 1: You know, It's all right, it's fine. It's just nothing's perfect.
Speaker 2: You get over it after you realize there's more bad
Speaker 2: pictures of you and Getty than good around. Then I'm
Speaker 2: with it.
Speaker 1: And that's the same with like a headline or what
Speaker 1: I'm like. All right, it's cool, you know, fine, whatever
Speaker 1: I mean. It's not easy. I'm not I'm not saying
Speaker 1: I laugh everything off at all.
Speaker 2: I'm I have.
Speaker 1: I'm a dad, and my number one goal is to
Speaker 1: protect my kids, you know, because they're going to see everything.
Speaker 1: My family see everything. But I've also learned to be
Speaker 1: able to know that if I'm aligned, sometimes I have
Speaker 1: to go back to that and I have to sit
Speaker 1: back in it.
Speaker 2: I'm okay, what have the kids read the book?
Speaker 1: Yeah? They have. Well, I think it's kind of for them.
Speaker 1: It's interesting because I'm Dad. I think one of the
Speaker 1: proudest moments of my life is the fact that they
Speaker 1: have been through so much on this journey with me,
Speaker 1: but they can still look at me and call me
Speaker 1: Dad proudly and that means everything to me. And I
Speaker 1: don't want to have any secrets. I want to share
Speaker 1: my journey with them, and as difficult as some of
Speaker 1: those topics are, I'd rather show them and say that
Speaker 1: was really hard, and I moved on and this is
Speaker 1: where I'm at now. And I didn't just move on
Speaker 1: because like it was easy. I moved on because I
Speaker 1: went through it and it was brutal and it was challenging.
Speaker 1: But do the work, you know, and it will lead
Speaker 1: you to a better place.
Speaker 2: We reached out to the kids and they send us
Speaker 2: a note for you. Yeah, and so there's one each
Speaker 2: and I'm going to ask you. I haven't read them yet,
Speaker 2: so I'm going to hear them for the first time. Too.
Speaker 2: I can ask you to read Kitties out loud.
Speaker 1: Okay, I can read it out.
Speaker 2: For us, because I've not read it either. I wanted
Speaker 2: to save it for you.
Speaker 1: There are so many things I wanted to say over
Speaker 1: the years, and sometimes I don't know how to put
Speaker 1: them into words. But today I just want to tell
Speaker 1: you how proud I am truly to be your daughter.
Speaker 1: You've been my example of strength, compassion, and integrity for
Speaker 1: as long as I remember. For every chapter of life,
Speaker 1: you've shown up with grace and honesty. You've made sacrifices
Speaker 1: that I'll never fully understand, and you've given me a
Speaker 1: love in a way that made me feel safe, valued,
Speaker 1: and seen. Even now, watching you open your heart and
Speaker 1: share your story to the world, I'm constantly inspired by
Speaker 1: your vulnerability and courage, and that's rare and a beautiful thing.
Speaker 1: You've given me so much more than I could ever
Speaker 1: thankful your love to shake me and your belief in
Speaker 1: me has carried through. I love you so much and
Speaker 1: I'm forever proud to be your daughter. Love Kitty. Oh God,
Speaker 1: I don't know I'm shaking. Oh God, I don't know
Speaker 1: what to say. Oh that's how you get me with
Speaker 1: my kids. I'm just I'm just so grateful that I
Speaker 1: have them and that they've been a part of this journey.
Speaker 1: And like I said that, the biggest achievement of my
Speaker 1: whole life is that they can call me Dad and
Speaker 1: say it with pride, because it's been so many times
Speaker 1: I've not I felt proud of myself, and I have
Speaker 1: not been kind to myself, and I think a lot
Speaker 1: of people can relate to that abandonment of themselves. And yeah,
Speaker 1: having them is this is the greatest gift.
Speaker 2: The beautiful letter and this one's from billionaire.
Speaker 1: You know what. I remember that night telling them about
Speaker 1: you know, being gay. It was especially for a boy.
Speaker 1: There's so it's kind of what guys say, you're gay,
Speaker 1: you're gay. It's always pinned as a bad thing. So
Speaker 1: I knew he was going to face so much going
Speaker 1: back to school, of people talking and people whispering and
Speaker 1: people saying stuff to him. And they both have gone
Speaker 1: through so much. They never let me see because they
Speaker 1: knew I was going through my own pain, So like, yeah,
Speaker 1: this means a lot. Okay, dear Dad, where do I
Speaker 1: even start. One of my first memories as a kid,
Speaker 1: is you a dressing up a superman to surprise me
Speaker 1: on my birthday. I thought I'd just met my hero.
Speaker 1: I didn't realize it then, but as I grew older,
Speaker 1: I came to see the real superhero wasn't a costume,
Speaker 1: it was a man inside. He went from cutting hair
Speaker 1: and a small local salon to taking a massive leap
Speaker 1: and moving across the world with nothing, and somehow across
Speaker 1: the chaos, you built a life out there. You work
Speaker 1: with Hollywood stars, become a businessman, appeared on TV, and
Speaker 1: now we' even written a book. And for all of that,
Speaker 1: you're still the same guy who makes people laugh and
Speaker 1: lights up every room, and who does everything he can
Speaker 1: to make the people around him happy. But what sticks
Speaker 1: with me the most isn't just what you've accomplished, is
Speaker 1: what you've taught me. He's shown me how to be
Speaker 1: confident myself and not to care what other people think.
Speaker 1: And you've taught me how to stay motivated to reach
Speaker 1: for the stars. And most importantly, you've taught me how
Speaker 1: to be respectful, kind and caring and beyond proud.
Speaker 2: To be on.
Speaker 1: Keep doing you, dad, God, Wow.
Speaker 2: I'm kneel in Jos is listening. It's so beautiful man.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's very special.
Speaker 2: It's amazing. Yeah, I feel so proud. I have to
Speaker 2: raise two kids who love you that much. That's pretty special.
Speaker 1: Yeah. But you know, any parent listening knows that their
Speaker 1: only goal is to make sure their kids grow up
Speaker 1: with the least amount of pain. And we all know
Speaker 1: the harsh reality of life. You know, when you're a kid,
Speaker 1: you're so innocent and life is so free, and as
Speaker 1: we grow older, there's so much baggage phone iturs and
Speaker 1: I think the only thing you can do is try
Speaker 1: and understand it. And I spent many of my years,
Speaker 1: like I said, trying to unpick what didn't belong to
Speaker 1: me and shake that off, and shake that package off.
Speaker 1: And if I can save them, if I can save
Speaker 1: them having to go through some of the struggles I
Speaker 1: went through because I didn't allow myself to be then
Speaker 1: I did okay with that, you know, all right, I'm.
Speaker 2: So grateful to you for you, know, your time and
Speaker 2: energy writing this book. I love about how you talk.
Speaker 2: When people dive in, they'll learn about the personal hate,
Speaker 2: so that we all have inside of us to learn about.
Speaker 2: How you talk about how shame lives in the shadows yep,
Speaker 2: to learn about this whole journey of what it means
Speaker 2: to make a comeback, and and.
Speaker 1: Also to realize that it's never too late. Yeah, it
Speaker 1: really is never too late, and sometimes we spend years
Speaker 1: of our life trying to figure that out. But once
Speaker 1: you have that realization, and hopefully the book will be
Speaker 1: that realization that it isn't too late and maybe a
Speaker 1: few footsteps into going into the right direction to change things.
Speaker 2: Chris, we end every episode of On Purpose with a
Speaker 2: final five. Okay, these questions have to be answered in
Speaker 2: one word to one sentence maximum, so Chrisp's in easier
Speaker 2: final five. Questionable one is what is the best advice
Speaker 2: you've ever heard or received?
Speaker 1: Live and let live. I think everyone's experience is different.
Speaker 1: If there's one thing I've learned in this time on
Speaker 1: the earth is that everyone's going through something. Everyone has
Speaker 1: had heartache, everyone has had trauma and different baggage, and
Speaker 1: one is going through some things. I think to try
Speaker 1: and remember that and let people you know, live, and
Speaker 1: like live you know and be We're so judgmental sometimes
Speaker 1: and we, like I said, love to put people in boxes,
Speaker 1: and that's something that we all do. If you're aware
Speaker 1: of it, you can understand and be more forgiving towards people.
Speaker 2: My second question is what is the worst advice you've
Speaker 2: ever received?
Speaker 1: I guess stay in your lane. I think I've been
Speaker 1: told so much of my life to fit in a box.
Speaker 1: There's no boxes you need to fit.
Speaker 2: In question number three, your favorite look you've ever done?
Speaker 2: For Kim and Jaylor.
Speaker 1: Easy, Kim's met Ball, she did the mole look. It
Speaker 1: was like the finger Waves look and Jlo super Bowl everyone,
Speaker 1: I think unanimously. They tell me that my favorite, your favorites,
Speaker 1: they're everyone else's favorite.
Speaker 2: I think your favorite.
Speaker 1: Listen, I'm going against the green. Everyone's going to come
Speaker 1: for me. But I love a blonde Kim and taking
Speaker 1: that platinum as a whole thing. So probably a blonde Kim.
Speaker 1: I love that. And then j Loo, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I really like it when we did like a short.
Speaker 1: We did a short hair style for her on The
Speaker 1: Couple of a Law and I loved it just because
Speaker 1: it was so different. I love seeing someone really take
Speaker 1: on a different character in a different story and just
Speaker 1: try it out, you know, fearlessly.
Speaker 2: I love that. Question number four, what do you see
Speaker 2: when you look at the inner mirror. Now, so you
Speaker 2: told us you on the outside sometimes you're like five
Speaker 2: pounds blonde hair.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what does the inner mirror look like? I think
Speaker 1: I see a guy that doesn't always have it together,
Speaker 1: but absolutely tries his best to be the best version
Speaker 1: of himself, primarily to inspire my kids that they can
Speaker 1: do the same. And now this book so with people
Speaker 1: feel like they can share that journey with me. And
Speaker 1: I want to hear over people's stories. I want to
Speaker 1: hear over people's journey. My greatest pain growing up was
Speaker 1: that no one spoke. No one spoke about it, no
Speaker 1: one spoke about their experience. And I think people that
Speaker 1: speak and share their stories and their journeys, the more
Speaker 1: we can all learn and accept and grow all said.
Speaker 2: Fifth and final question. We asked this to every guest
Speaker 2: who's ever been on the Showah, if you could create
Speaker 2: one law that everyone in the world had to follow,
Speaker 2: what would it be?
Speaker 1: My one law would be that everyone stops, looks in
Speaker 1: the mirror and just says, is this enough? Is this
Speaker 1: what I wanted? Is this where I'm at? And? If so, great,
Speaker 1: but at least just to stop and really look, how
Speaker 1: did we get to where we got it's going to
Speaker 1: realize that if you want to change, you can, because
Speaker 1: like I said, I've always done that with my hands
Speaker 1: and sitting in the chair. But I realized there was
Speaker 1: this whole world that people don't know about. But once
Speaker 1: you know, you can't see it.
Speaker 2: Chris Appleton, The book is called Your Roots, Don't Define You.
Speaker 2: Everyone who's been listening and watching, I cannot wait to
Speaker 2: see what you're taking away. I want to see all
Speaker 2: the tiktoks, the instagram reels, the stories. I love seeing
Speaker 2: what you extract from these conversations applying your own life.
Speaker 2: You've had a friend or family member that you haven't
Speaker 2: even known what to say to you because they've been
Speaker 2: on a similar journey, send this episode to them. I
Speaker 2: think it's going to help a lot of people on
Speaker 2: their personal journey of transformation and reflection. And make sure
Speaker 2: that you keep coming back. Make sure you subscribe so
Speaker 2: that you never miss out on an episode, because it's
Speaker 2: stories like this that we built this platform for where
Speaker 2: people can come and talk about the upstairs downs, the
Speaker 2: real healing and what that actually looks like. And I
Speaker 2: highly recommend you go and grab a copy of Chris's book,
Speaker 2: Your Roots Don't Define You. It's available for pre order
Speaker 2: right now as we're speaking. Chris, thank you again so
Speaker 2: much for trusting me, for trusting the platform. Thank you
Speaker 2: for what you do jes so open and honest.
Speaker 1: It's a real privilege to be here and share it
Speaker 1: with you, because I feel like you two have shared
Speaker 1: your journey and since spiring to a lot of people,
Speaker 1: so you know you're a big inspiration to me, so
Speaker 1: to be here is very honored. So thank you for
Speaker 1: your time.
Speaker 2: I genuinely have so much respect for you to be
Speaker 2: able to talk about some really really difficult stuff, and
Speaker 2: I think in the world right now, this message is
Speaker 2: really really needed. There's a lot of people that this book,
Speaker 2: this interview is going to help, and so thank you,
Speaker 2: and I'm so grateful to you for using your platform
Speaker 2: to spread this message. You could talk about your life,
Speaker 2: you could teach people how to build a big brand,
Speaker 2: you could teach people to do so many things. But
Speaker 2: the fact that you've told them about your truth and
Speaker 2: how they can find theirs, it's a really beautiful offering
Speaker 2: in service. So thank you, Chris, thank you, thanks so much.
Speaker 2: Thank you. Mate. If you love this episode, you will
Speaker 2: also love my interview with Kendall Jenna on setting boundaries
Speaker 2: to increase happiness and healing. You're in a child You
Speaker 2: could be reading something that someone is saying about you
Speaker 2: and being like, that is so unfair because that's not
Speaker 2: who I am and that really gets to me sometimes.
Speaker 2: But then looking at myself in the mirror and being like,
Speaker 2: but I know who I am.
Speaker 1: Why does anything else matter?