1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,760 Speaker 1: Are you hiring? Do you know where to post your 2 00:00:02,840 --> 00:00:06,280 Speaker 1: job to find the very best candidates, Because just like 3 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:09,360 Speaker 1: a pyramid, the very top brick is nothing without a 4 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:13,640 Speaker 1: good foundation. With zip recruiter, you can post your job 5 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 1: to one hundred plus job sites with one click and 6 00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 1: then they're powerful. Technology matches the right people to your 7 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:25,640 Speaker 1: job better than anybody else, and that's why Zip recruiters different. 8 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 1: Unlike other job sites, Zip recruiter does not depend on 9 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:33,640 Speaker 1: candidates finding you, it finds them. In fact, over eighty 10 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:37,280 Speaker 1: percent of jobs posted on zip recruiter get a qualified 11 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 1: candidate and just twenty four hours. You heard me write, 12 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:44,159 Speaker 1: twenty four hours, no juggling emails or calls to your office. 13 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:47,920 Speaker 1: You just simply screen, rate, and manage candidates all in 14 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:52,600 Speaker 1: one place with zip recruiters easy to use dashboard. Find 15 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 1: out today why zip recruiter has been used by businesses 16 00:00:56,080 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 1: of all sizes to find the most qualified job candidates 17 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 1: with immediate results. Right now, our listeners can post jobs 18 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:07,920 Speaker 1: on zip recruiter for free f r A A, that's 19 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:11,800 Speaker 1: right free. Go to zip recruiter dot com, slash Nancy Grace, 20 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 1: zipp recruiter dot com, Nancy Grace, zip recruiter dot com 21 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 1: slash Nancy Grace one more time. To try it for free, 22 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 1: go to zip recruiter dot com slash Nancy Grace zip 23 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:35,399 Speaker 1: recruiter thanks so much for being our partner. Crime Stories 24 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:39,640 Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph Channel one thirty two. 25 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 1: I had a stillboard baby after two years, which she 26 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:45,959 Speaker 1: realized that what she was holding onto while she was 27 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 1: mourning wasn't her daughter but somebody's dogs flicking Late Mary 28 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 1: keep a wake up. Jericho Sky died in April. It 29 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 1: was taken to the Bower Funeral Home in Cantanning for creation. 30 00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 1: Jennifer receiving a box with the cremins, cherishing them for 31 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 1: the past two years, but it wasn't until this week 32 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 1: that she actually decided to open the box and view them. 33 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 1: And there was a metal plate in there said Butler 34 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 1: pet cremation. And when I've seen that, I knew something 35 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 1: was wrong. She called the funeral home immediately. They told 36 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:17,359 Speaker 1: me a mistake had been made. I was given somebody's 37 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:22,360 Speaker 1: pet and they were given my daughter. A Pennsylvania mother 38 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:27,519 Speaker 1: now says she is living a quote nightmare, a nightmare 39 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 1: she can't wake up. From after this, Pennsylvania mom discovers 40 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:38,919 Speaker 1: that last week the box she believed to beholding her 41 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 1: daughter's remains, her baby daughter's remains for the last two years, 42 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:55,679 Speaker 1: actually contain dog remains. I just had to let that 43 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:59,080 Speaker 1: just sink in for a moment. I Nancy Grace, this 44 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 1: is crime Story's thank you for being with us. You know, 45 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:07,560 Speaker 1: when you lose a loved one, it is so traumatic. 46 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 1: I just went through the death of my father and 47 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 1: I still recall when my fiancee was murdered. It's something 48 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 1: you never forget. You never really quote get over, although 49 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:21,680 Speaker 1: a lot of people think that you do. You just 50 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:25,800 Speaker 1: go on, you sold your on, But then to find 51 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 1: out that the cremated remains that you have held, dear, 52 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:38,200 Speaker 1: are those of a dog, it's insult to injury. Joining 53 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 1: me right now is a very special guess. It's Wendy 54 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 1: Russell Wiener. Her expertise is regulatory death care. She is 55 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 1: a very well known lawyer with Broad and Casselle, of 56 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 1: Florida based law firm, but she consults nationwide on issues 57 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 1: just like this. It's a very unique niche and the 58 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 1: practice of law. Wendy Russell Wayner, thank you so much. 59 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 1: For being with us. Thanks for having me Nancy. Wendy, 60 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 1: Before I get started on this, poor Pennsylvania mom, I 61 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 1: gotta ask you, how did you get in the funeral business. 62 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:24,159 Speaker 1: I started my regulatory law practice as an insurance regulatory 63 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 1: attorney here in Florida, UH and at that time part 64 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:31,920 Speaker 1: of the death care industry was regulated by the Department 65 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 1: of Insurance. But the regulatory scheme changed over the course 66 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:39,560 Speaker 1: of years, and my practice followed the regulation to its 67 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 1: new regulator, and now in Florida, all of deathcare, from 68 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:50,600 Speaker 1: funeral establishment and cemetery and crematory regulation all the way 69 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 1: up to the regulation of pre need contracts is all 70 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 1: handled by one regulator, and I UH practiced law before 71 00:04:57,160 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 1: that regulator on a regular basis and U Over the years, 72 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 1: my practice grew to representing clients nationwide on a consulting basis, 73 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:11,840 Speaker 1: helping them interact with their regulators and see their way 74 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:16,720 Speaker 1: through issues. Wendy, I gotta tell you something, um, this 75 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:19,920 Speaker 1: has been my experience of funeral homes. When my dad 76 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:26,839 Speaker 1: passed away, our little funeral home um in making. You know, 77 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:29,160 Speaker 1: it was a small town in Georgia where we grew up, 78 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:34,160 Speaker 1: could not have been nicer to my mom, and it 79 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:36,680 Speaker 1: was a horrible time. We did not I think I 80 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:39,040 Speaker 1: told you about this story when when I first met you. 81 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:42,359 Speaker 1: It was a horrible time. We did not expect my 82 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:45,159 Speaker 1: dad to pass away, and it was just a shock 83 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 1: and a blow to all of us and they could 84 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 1: not have been kinder. That was followed by the also 85 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:58,960 Speaker 1: unexpected death of my husband's dad and mom, and same 86 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:03,080 Speaker 1: story with them. It's a really difficult time in people's 87 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 1: lives while the loss of your loved one is so raw, 88 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:11,919 Speaker 1: and you immediately have to start dealing with a funeral 89 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 1: home and figuring out what you're going to do with 90 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:18,360 Speaker 1: their dead body. I wish I had never even seen 91 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:22,320 Speaker 1: my dad's dead body, but I did. And you're You're 92 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:26,159 Speaker 1: dealing with people at a really hard time in their lives, 93 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:29,760 Speaker 1: and absolutely is one of the most difficult times that 94 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:33,000 Speaker 1: people go through dealing with the loss of a loved one. 95 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:37,559 Speaker 1: And uh, really, for the most part, the death care 96 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 1: industry is a great industry. Uh. You mentioned your positive 97 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 1: experience with the industry, and UH, almost always, the death 98 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:52,240 Speaker 1: care industry does everything that it can to get it right. Unfortunately, 99 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 1: there are times where mistakes are made, which results in 100 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:02,560 Speaker 1: situations like the one we're talking about now. Well, okay, Wendy, 101 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 1: Wendy Russell Weener with me as specialist in regulatory deathcare. 102 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 1: This has been brought to our attention when a Pennsylvania 103 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:13,240 Speaker 1: mom says she is quote living a nightmare she can't 104 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 1: wake up from. She discovers just last week the box 105 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:19,920 Speaker 1: she has held dear to her heart for the last 106 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 1: two years that she thought was holding her baby daughter's remains. 107 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 1: I can't even imagine what could be worse than losing 108 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 1: your child. You know, I lost a fiance, I lost 109 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 1: a parent, but a child. I think, Wendy, you just 110 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 1: have to lay me down in front of the railroad 111 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 1: track and just run over me if I lost one 112 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 1: of the twins. So she loses her baby girl and 113 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 1: it's held these remains close and finds out they belong 114 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 1: to a dog. Listen to what the mom said. This 115 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 1: mother told me she's had to go through months and 116 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:57,559 Speaker 1: months of intensive therapy just to get over the loss 117 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 1: of her daughter. But after two years, when she realized 118 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:02,000 Speaker 1: is that what she was holding onto while she was 119 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 1: mourning wasn't her daughter but somebody's dog. It's like a 120 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:08,480 Speaker 1: nightmare I can't wake up, bro. I had a stillborn baby, 121 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 1: Jericho Sky died in April. It was taken to the 122 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:15,800 Speaker 1: Bower Funeral Home in Catanning for cremation. Jennifer receiving a 123 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 1: box with the cremins, cherishing them for the past two years, 124 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 1: but it wasn't until this week that she actually decided 125 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 1: to open the box and view them. And there was 126 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 1: a metal plate in there and I read it and 127 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:32,720 Speaker 1: it said Butler Pet Cremation. And when I seen that, 128 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 1: I knew something was wrong. Scared and confused, she called 129 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:40,720 Speaker 1: the funeral home immediately. They told me that a mistake 130 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:45,360 Speaker 1: had been made and I was given somebody's pet and 131 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 1: they were given my daughter. It's humiliating. I'm horrified. As 132 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:54,960 Speaker 1: many times I sat and I cried and I held 133 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 1: that her and cried myself to sleep, grieving for my daughter. 134 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:03,720 Speaker 1: You know, let please dog bow. Our funeral home says 135 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 1: they contract with the Thompson Miller Crematory which made the mistake. 136 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:10,960 Speaker 1: Both funeral homeowners speaking with us about the error. The 137 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:14,560 Speaker 1: mistake is mine, quite honestly, I made a mistake. I 138 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 1: had two identical containers. I just simply put the wrong 139 00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:22,680 Speaker 1: label on the wrong container. I wanted the public to 140 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:26,199 Speaker 1: know how deeply saddened I am that this happened, and 141 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:29,320 Speaker 1: um that I'm so sorry for the family, and it 142 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 1: was a mistake, it was human error, and I'm just 143 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:35,200 Speaker 1: so thankful we were able to rectify it extremely quickly. 144 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 1: Jennifer received the correct cremains this week, which luckily the 145 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:42,360 Speaker 1: dog owner had kept intact. But she's still not satisfied 146 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 1: after all that's happened. Do you accept their apology? No? 147 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:51,720 Speaker 1: How can I How do you make a mistake like that? Now? 148 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:54,360 Speaker 1: Jennifer and her husband tell me they're still uncertain about 149 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 1: whether what they have is really their daughter. They tell 150 00:09:57,240 --> 00:10:00,439 Speaker 1: me they're thinking about possible DNA testing and could sidering 151 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 1: legal action. Wendy, there you hear Jennifer Daly telling W T. A. E. 152 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 1: That her daughter, baby Jericha, was cremated in April of 153 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 1: two thousand fifteen, at this Bower funeral home. The funeral 154 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 1: home gave the grieving mom a white box. A bag 155 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:27,600 Speaker 1: was inside, supposedly containing the remains. I never heard the 156 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 1: word kremains. Is that a new word, Wendy. It's new 157 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:34,440 Speaker 1: to me now. It's just an industry term. Used to 158 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 1: describe cremated remains. It's very it's very typical. She says. 159 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:41,319 Speaker 1: She held onto the cremains for two years, not daring 160 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:45,080 Speaker 1: to look inside the box even once, because of the 161 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:48,560 Speaker 1: heartbreak of looking at the ashes. And I think that 162 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:52,439 Speaker 1: was her baby girl. So recently her husband suggested they 163 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:55,960 Speaker 1: spread the ashes somewhere that they felt with wholesome many 164 00:10:56,040 --> 00:11:00,200 Speaker 1: for their family. Wendy Russell Weener, can you imagine just 165 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:04,160 Speaker 1: shot the mom was too upset for two years to 166 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:08,319 Speaker 1: even look at the remains. She could not look at 167 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 1: the cremated Absolutely not unusual. Uh and uh where uh. 168 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 1: Mistakes such as this occur when a crematory or a 169 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 1: funeral establishment provides uh the incorrect cremated remains to a family, uh, 170 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 1: and then they don't check for a period of time. 171 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:36,079 Speaker 1: Oftentimes that makes even a very difficult situation more difficult 172 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:39,960 Speaker 1: because at at that point, when so much time has passed, 173 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:45,440 Speaker 1: often it's impossible to get the correct cremated remains into 174 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 1: the right hand. So here we note Daily says, and 175 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 1: I'm talking about the mother Jennifer Daly holds onto the 176 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:55,559 Speaker 1: cremains two years, not having the heart to look at them. 177 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:59,240 Speaker 1: The husband suggests they finally spread them. He encourages her 178 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 1: to moot, try to move forward, and this is her quote, Wendy, 179 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 1: I finally worked up the nerve to look into her 180 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 1: urn and look at my baby girl's ashes. And there 181 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:15,319 Speaker 1: was a metal plate and I read it and it 182 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:25,240 Speaker 1: said Butler Pet Cremation. Oh, dear Lord in heaven. Wendy 183 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 1: Russell Weener, I would have fallen over dead, because if 184 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 1: you see that, You're like, well, then where is my daughter? 185 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 1: Where is my daughter? If I've got a dog, if 186 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 1: I've got something from Butler Pet Cremation, where's my daughter? 187 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:44,960 Speaker 1: Can you imagine the shock this woman had when she 188 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:49,720 Speaker 1: saw that in there, Wendy, Absolutely, I'm sure it was um, 189 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:56,360 Speaker 1: extremely uh difficult. Um. It's It's interesting because in the 190 00:12:56,440 --> 00:13:04,120 Speaker 1: United States, Uh, pet cremation has become a much bigger 191 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 1: part of the depth care industry. Uh people in the 192 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 1: United States. Uh, We'll hold on, Wendy, Wait a minute, Wendy, 193 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 1: everybody in the studio here is making a face. I 194 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:16,040 Speaker 1: don't know why why you're making the face because upstairs 195 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:20,559 Speaker 1: I have a teak container of my cat Coco that 196 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:23,560 Speaker 1: I took in as a stray remains, and I'll never 197 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:27,080 Speaker 1: forget the day Coco, who was a boy cat, passed away. 198 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 1: That cat help me get through my pregnancy. I love 199 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:32,600 Speaker 1: that cat. And when I had to move to New York. 200 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:35,559 Speaker 1: Just so you know this, Jackie, he looks skeptical of 201 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:38,320 Speaker 1: pet cremation. When I had to move to New York 202 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:41,440 Speaker 1: to start my job with Court TV and Johnny Cochrane, 203 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:45,120 Speaker 1: the cat stayed with my now husband, David and with routinely, 204 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:46,960 Speaker 1: as David was watching TV, just come up and bite 205 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 1: him in the ankle and run away. And I was 206 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:52,200 Speaker 1: so happy. Okay, So I love that cat. Had the 207 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:58,560 Speaker 1: cat eighteen years. Eighteen years. So don't scoff at pet cremation, okay, 208 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:01,320 Speaker 1: because I hope to see Cocoa again. Go ahead, Winding. 209 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:04,240 Speaker 1: You make exactly the point that I'm making. Uh, you 210 00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 1: illustrate it perfectly. Uh. People love their pets. Pets are 211 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:12,320 Speaker 1: part of the family, and so as uh the deathcare 212 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 1: industry has seen a deed. Uh. Pet cremation has become 213 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:20,080 Speaker 1: a much bigger part of the business. Um it is 214 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 1: not are they supposed to be in the same facility, Wendy, 215 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:27,520 Speaker 1: because this place has human and pet cremation in the 216 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 1: same facility. Something about that does the same right? Well, uh, 217 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:33,840 Speaker 1: you pick up on something interesting. We don't know for 218 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 1: sure that the cremations were done in the same uh machinery. Um. 219 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 1: But it's not uncommon for a deathcare owner operator to 220 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 1: have both a human crematory and a pet crematory. UM. 221 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 1: It is unlawful in many states for pets to be 222 00:14:54,720 --> 00:15:00,200 Speaker 1: cremated in a human crematory. But UM, it is not 223 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 1: unusual for pets to be cremated in a building adjacent to, 224 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:10,840 Speaker 1: or or even in the same building as as the 225 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:15,120 Speaker 1: location for a human crematory. Okay, I'm glad to hear that. 226 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 1: The mom Jennifer Daley goes on quote. They told me 227 00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 1: a mistake had been made, and I was given somebody's 228 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:25,080 Speaker 1: pet and they were given my daughter. It turned the 229 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:27,880 Speaker 1: worst thing that could possibly happen to me in my 230 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:34,280 Speaker 1: life into a thousand times worse you know, um. Wendy 231 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:37,880 Speaker 1: Russell Wayner, I told you when we met about how 232 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 1: I ended up becoming a prosecutor after the murder of 233 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 1: my fiancee, And for many many years I would have 234 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 1: dreams that Keith was really actually alive and that had 235 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 1: all just been a big hoax because he didn't want 236 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 1: to get married. I mean, what a cruel and horrible dream. Okay, 237 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 1: this sounds like one of those horrible dreams, except it's 238 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 1: real now in mineral Glenn Miller, the owner of the 239 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:07,280 Speaker 1: funeral home, is she is. Sheed a personal apology, claiming 240 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 1: the mistake is mine honestly. I mean, he just put 241 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:12,400 Speaker 1: it out there, said, I made a mistake. I had 242 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:16,120 Speaker 1: two identical containers. I simply put the wrong label on one. 243 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:20,800 Speaker 1: And but how can that happen? And how can you, 244 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:24,080 Speaker 1: I guess I'm trying to figure out, how can you 245 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 1: look at ashes? If it had not been for that 246 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:30,920 Speaker 1: tag in there, would she have ever known she didn't 247 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 1: have her daughter's ashes. No, but it is very common, uh, 248 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 1: and is required in many, if not most states, that 249 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 1: the disc from the cremation machinery, which is known as 250 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 1: a retort, that the disc from the retort actually be 251 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 1: placed inside of the What are you calling it a retort? 252 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 1: How do you spell that retort? R E T O 253 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 1: R T okay? Retort? Okay? And that's the name of 254 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:04,160 Speaker 1: the sheenery that actually performs the cremation. So um, every 255 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:07,639 Speaker 1: time a cremation occurs. Uh, there is a little disk 256 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 1: which is affixed to the retort that identifies uh, certain 257 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:20,000 Speaker 1: information about the person or the pet being cremated. That 258 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:25,680 Speaker 1: disk is then placed into the actual cremated remains once 259 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 1: the cremation process has been completed and the pulverization of 260 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:35,919 Speaker 1: any remaining bone fragments or or teeth or things that 261 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 1: were not reduced to ash during the cremation um during 262 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:45,439 Speaker 1: after the pulverization process occurs, then UH, that disk is 263 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:49,919 Speaker 1: usually placed inside of the cremated remains, inside either a 264 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:53,560 Speaker 1: bag or inside of the urn if the cremated remains 265 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:56,200 Speaker 1: go directly into an earth. So you're telling me that's 266 00:17:56,280 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 1: the safeguard that the facilities use. That retort that is 267 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:07,720 Speaker 1: in with the body should identify the correct cremated remains, right, Well, 268 00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:12,479 Speaker 1: the retort is the machinery. UM. The tag that was 269 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 1: in the cremated remains is affixed to the retort and 270 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:18,399 Speaker 1: then it goes into the cremated remains. And that is 271 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 1: really uh the best identification of the person or pet 272 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:29,399 Speaker 1: being that has been cremated, UH, that a licensee or 273 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:33,920 Speaker 1: a funeral homeowner operator, a crematory owner operator can use 274 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:38,760 Speaker 1: to determine, um, whose cremated remains are with. So let 275 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:41,200 Speaker 1: me understand this, because you were you were talking in 276 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 1: a lot of legal and technical jargon. Look, I'm just 277 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:48,439 Speaker 1: a criminal trial lawyer. Wendy Russell Wainer. Hold on, let 278 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 1: me understand this. So you put the body through something 279 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:54,639 Speaker 1: called a retort, and there is a tag, a metal 280 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:59,200 Speaker 1: tag affixed to or connected to some way to the body. 281 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:02,480 Speaker 1: So when the crew made it, remains come out, the 282 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:06,919 Speaker 1: correct tag is there. So what happened here? It sounds like, 283 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 1: is he just put the wrong sticker on the outside 284 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:13,320 Speaker 1: of the remains. That's what I think happened. Does that 285 00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:16,640 Speaker 1: sound right to you? It does? It does sound right. 286 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:22,480 Speaker 1: And and as the as the gentleman identified with the crematory, 287 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 1: uh indicated, Uh, this appears to be a mistake made 288 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:32,240 Speaker 1: by the crematory operator where they affixed the wrong identification 289 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:37,560 Speaker 1: to the box. Well, this is what we know. Um. 290 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:42,200 Speaker 1: The mother says, quote, it's humiliating. I'm horrified. As many 291 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:45,000 Speaker 1: times as I sat and cried and held that turn 292 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 1: and cried myself to sleep grieving for my daughter. And 293 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 1: it was somebody's dog. The mother says, Uh. Now the 294 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:58,399 Speaker 1: mom and dad are left wondering whether a d n 295 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:00,680 Speaker 1: A test needs to be performed and if it can 296 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 1: be performed on cremated remains, which I really don't think 297 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 1: that it can to determine whether the cremate. Did you 298 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:11,320 Speaker 1: say no, it cannot No, No, it's um. There's a 299 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 1: pretty widely held misconception that uh DNA survives the creamation process, 300 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:20,840 Speaker 1: but it does not. The science behind that. I did 301 00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:23,920 Speaker 1: not think it did, Wendy. So now they don't know 302 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:27,119 Speaker 1: what to do. They don't really believe. They're not sure 303 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:32,879 Speaker 1: these remains are really their little girls. Um. They were asked, 304 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:37,199 Speaker 1: do you accept their apology? Answer? No? How can I 305 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:39,960 Speaker 1: How do you make a mistake like that? How do 306 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:44,439 Speaker 1: you mistake a dog for a human? It's like a 307 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:50,200 Speaker 1: nightmare I can't wake up from, you know, Wendy Russell Wyner. 308 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:54,959 Speaker 1: In my line of business, people's lives were really on 309 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:59,680 Speaker 1: the line, literally with many cases that I tried, and 310 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:05,920 Speaker 1: you're line of business, people's lives are forever changed depending 311 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:12,400 Speaker 1: on the outcome of their experience with me. Wendy Russell Wiener, 312 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:17,359 Speaker 1: an expert in regulatory death care, an attorney with Broad 313 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 1: and Casselle in Florida, but consulting nationwide. Our special guest today, Wendy, 314 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:28,360 Speaker 1: I guess you've heard it all right, probably probably. Well, 315 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:32,080 Speaker 1: let's pray this mother has the right remains now and 316 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:37,200 Speaker 1: the jury is out. Wendy, thank you. And now on 317 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:41,760 Speaker 1: crime stories, the eighteen year old Carlyle mother accused of killing, burning, 318 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:44,359 Speaker 1: and burying her newborn baby, is now out of jail 319 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:46,960 Speaker 1: while she awaits trial. Her attorney had a short statement 320 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 1: for reporters. I can tell you the brook Skyla Richardson 321 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:53,440 Speaker 1: did not kill her baby. This morning, Richardson walked into 322 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:55,960 Speaker 1: Judge Donald Otis court where she entered a plea of 323 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:59,800 Speaker 1: not guilty to murdering her newborn child. And honor student 324 00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 1: cheerleader varsity cheerleaders now under suspicion for murder, repeat homicide. 325 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 1: That's right, an honor student cheerleader is now suspected in 326 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:20,560 Speaker 1: the gruesome homicide of a baby, her baby Brooks scholar 327 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 1: Richardson sat demurely in court as charges were read against her, 328 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:32,680 Speaker 1: and she's already out walking free on bond. The high 329 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:36,800 Speaker 1: school girl will high school grad is accused of murdering 330 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 1: her baby girl and conveniently burying the baby in the 331 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:48,520 Speaker 1: backyard beside the barbecue pit. All right, what's concerning me 332 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:52,359 Speaker 1: right now other than the initial shock of giving birth 333 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:56,680 Speaker 1: to a live newborn child according to the district attorney, 334 00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:59,920 Speaker 1: and then waiting for the right chance to bury the 335 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 1: baby in the backyard and then go about life normally 336 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 1: as if nothing had happened. Is how she's going to 337 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:10,359 Speaker 1: be treated in court and the facade that she is 338 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:14,960 Speaker 1: displaying in court. Um, that's what I'm thinking about now. 339 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:19,480 Speaker 1: Brook Skyler Richardson appeared in Warren County Court for a 340 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 1: pretty trial conference before Judge Donald Oda the second. Her 341 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:27,639 Speaker 1: trial is set to go forward in a matter of weeks. 342 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 1: She has pled not guilty to the charges of aggravated murder, 343 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:36,560 Speaker 1: child endangerment, tampering with evidence, and gross abuse of a 344 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:40,800 Speaker 1: corpse in connection to the death of the infant child. 345 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:47,320 Speaker 1: She's already released on fifty grand, which equals to five 346 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 1: grand because you only put up ten, and she has 347 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:54,400 Speaker 1: agreed to wear an ankle monitoring device. That that's it. 348 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:59,080 Speaker 1: There is an uproar in the community and critics have 349 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:04,680 Speaker 1: accused thee of going too easy on the cheerleader. Why 350 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:09,280 Speaker 1: is she out, aren't Harris? I mean, why is the 351 00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:13,399 Speaker 1: life of an infant, a newborn baby who was born 352 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:17,000 Speaker 1: alive according to the medical examiner. Why she walk out 353 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 1: on five thousand dollar bond? It is fifty thousand, it's 354 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:25,200 Speaker 1: fifty thousand, but there aren't You've been in enough bonding 355 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 1: companies to know fifty thousand equals five thousand, check and 356 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:33,520 Speaker 1: just home free for the moment. And this is These 357 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:35,200 Speaker 1: are people I guess you were known to the community 358 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:39,399 Speaker 1: and quote respectable family. Uh you left out that the 359 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 1: baby was apparently burned and decomposed between the time they 360 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:47,359 Speaker 1: believed that child was born May six or seven and 361 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:51,200 Speaker 1: found later in July. I did not leave at out, 362 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:54,920 Speaker 1: aren't Harris. I had a funny feeling that you would 363 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 1: fill me in. Okay, let's go through the facts. I 364 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:00,199 Speaker 1: know I should have known you'd hone in and on 365 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:02,960 Speaker 1: the most gruesome part of the case. Go ahead, I 366 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:05,400 Speaker 1: will let you explain it. Joining me also is Joe 367 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:10,000 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, DestinE investigator and renowned psychologists joining me out 368 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 1: of New York Karen Stark. Karen, I know you've got 369 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:16,600 Speaker 1: a lot to say about this, but I want you 370 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:21,120 Speaker 1: to hear as disturbing as it is, the real facts 371 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:25,400 Speaker 1: about the discovery of the infant's body, because I think 372 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:30,359 Speaker 1: it may change your opinion. Aren't please explain? So the 373 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:33,640 Speaker 1: medical examiner, uh, you know, report the cause of death. 374 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:37,080 Speaker 1: It was difficult to decide because the burning and the 375 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:41,359 Speaker 1: decomposition of the body between the time that they believed 376 00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:44,639 Speaker 1: the baby was born and when she was found. But 377 00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:47,520 Speaker 1: half some ideas of how it happened, uh, you know, 378 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:51,360 Speaker 1: burning the body then burying it. Joe Morgan can tell 379 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:55,760 Speaker 1: us the problems there. But initially what shocked me investigators 380 00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:58,480 Speaker 1: were tipped off by some doctor who initials it a 381 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:03,960 Speaker 1: stillborn baby. Now that would change things a little bit, uh, 382 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:08,440 Speaker 1: from murder to hiding an embarrassment, I suppose, But this 383 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:11,720 Speaker 1: this is not the case apparently, So I'm curious, how 384 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:14,960 Speaker 1: can you tell the difference between, you know, a stillborn 385 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 1: child and one that was murdered if the body has 386 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:21,080 Speaker 1: been so decomposed. All right, you said the body was 387 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:28,200 Speaker 1: burned and decomposed. Well, the reports that she burned the body, 388 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:32,320 Speaker 1: possibly to hide whatever, and then buried it. So if 389 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 1: it's buried that long, the remains are going to decompose. 390 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:39,960 Speaker 1: From whether it's rain, whether it's uh, moisture, underground, whatever 391 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:42,760 Speaker 1: the weather is like. Uh, I don't know how far 392 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:46,680 Speaker 1: the decomposition went. U. Joe could probably explain that the 393 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:49,080 Speaker 1: FBI has something called the body Farm where they test 394 00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 1: time and conditions and what happens to bodies after over time. 395 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:59,120 Speaker 1: But this is what was reported now. Uh, the prosecutor 396 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:04,320 Speaker 1: decided to pursue charge which would have put her possibly 397 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:08,960 Speaker 1: uh you know, made her definitely eligible. But now she 398 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:11,880 Speaker 1: can spend the rest of life in prison if these 399 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:14,720 Speaker 1: charges turn out to be true. Well, this is what 400 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:20,560 Speaker 1: I know. After unearthing the baby girls remains, experts have 401 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:26,560 Speaker 1: decided the baby had been born alive, then killed, then 402 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:32,760 Speaker 1: the baby's body burned, then buried in the backyard by 403 00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:38,920 Speaker 1: the barbecue pit. Joe Scott Morgan, death investigator. How difficult 404 00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 1: is it to actually burn a human body? Very difficult. 405 00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:45,919 Speaker 1: It takes a lot of a lot of cases that 406 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:48,119 Speaker 1: I've worked over the years. People simply think that they 407 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:50,440 Speaker 1: can take a gallon of gas or lighter fluid, throw 408 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 1: it on the body, senative firewalk away. That doesn't happen. 409 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:55,919 Speaker 1: It takes an extended period of time to do what 410 00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:59,480 Speaker 1: we refer to as render down human remains, and a 411 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:01,760 Speaker 1: lot of tense heat for a protractive amount of time. 412 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 1: The problem here is uh, and the problem for the 413 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:09,680 Speaker 1: defense in this case is that when this child's body 414 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:13,440 Speaker 1: was examined by the medical examiner, they conducted what is 415 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:17,760 Speaker 1: referred to as a float test for the lungs. That means, 416 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 1: that means, in very simple terms, that this precious little angel, 417 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:25,760 Speaker 1: at some point in time, right after birth, had had 418 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:30,840 Speaker 1: taken air into its lungs, the lungs had expanded into 419 00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:33,680 Speaker 1: those little sacks in the lungs, and the lungs are 420 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 1: able to float. If the child had been born still, 421 00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:40,880 Speaker 1: then those lungs never would have expanded and they would 422 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:43,280 Speaker 1: sink to the bottom and the tub in which they're tested. 423 00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:47,520 Speaker 1: So this makes this doubly horrific in this case. Now 424 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:50,640 Speaker 1: back to what artists said, It does compromise the ability 425 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 1: to find out what exactly happened. But Nancy, as you 426 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:58,040 Speaker 1: well know, it doesn't take much to kill this innocent 427 00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 1: little child. Anything as simple as is placing their hand 428 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,520 Speaker 1: over this child's nose and mouth could have brought this 429 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:06,960 Speaker 1: child to an end. Now, Art Harris was right that 430 00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:11,360 Speaker 1: initially the police did not charge her with murder. It 431 00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:15,080 Speaker 1: was basically the lowest, one of the lowest rungs of homicide. 432 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,880 Speaker 1: It's my understanding, and Alan Duke check this out for 433 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 1: me to make sure we're correct. But I understand that 434 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:26,479 Speaker 1: she has pleaded. Brook Skylan Richardson has pled not guilty 435 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:32,960 Speaker 1: to charges of aggravated murder, child endangerment, tampering with evidence, 436 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 1: and gross abuse of a corpse in connection to the 437 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:40,680 Speaker 1: death of the baby girl. I think she is charged 438 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:45,360 Speaker 1: with aggravated murder. Now it's a lot different thing and 439 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:47,440 Speaker 1: I can't put my finger on it. To Karen Stark 440 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:51,920 Speaker 1: psychologists joining me out of New York, I'm not arguing 441 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:56,600 Speaker 1: about right now anyway, about whether abortion is right or wrong, Okay, 442 00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:02,640 Speaker 1: I'm talking about a pre meditate, hated act, Karen giving 443 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:05,200 Speaker 1: birth to a baby, a baby girl. You know how 444 00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:07,400 Speaker 1: many people in this country would give their eye teeth 445 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:10,600 Speaker 1: to get a baby girl to raise and too love 446 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:14,800 Speaker 1: and have her love them back. But that's not what 447 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:19,959 Speaker 1: brook Skyler Richardson did. According to police, she killed the baby, 448 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:25,160 Speaker 1: who was born alive with no known defects, then tried 449 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:29,920 Speaker 1: to burn the baby's body. Did burn the baby's body? 450 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:34,000 Speaker 1: I mean, just that thought Karen start of putting flame 451 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:38,720 Speaker 1: to a child, a baby's body. It just is completely 452 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:42,840 Speaker 1: revolting to me. And I understand that you would feel 453 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:45,239 Speaker 1: that way, Nancy, but I want to explain something to 454 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:48,880 Speaker 1: you that in neo nat aside, which is what we're 455 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 1: talking about, mothers who killed their children very often, it's 456 00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 1: something that happens with teenagers. And she's eighteen years old. 457 00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:02,480 Speaker 1: So even though we're saying she's an adult at eighteen, 458 00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:07,760 Speaker 1: she still has enough of the adolescent type of magical 459 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:13,720 Speaker 1: thinking where she's in denial throughout the pregnancy. So it's 460 00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 1: not like she's saying, I'm pregnant and everybody is talking 461 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:21,280 Speaker 1: about prenatal care. She's wishing it away and she's saying 462 00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:24,200 Speaker 1: to herself, maybe I'll have a miscarriage or I'm not 463 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:28,560 Speaker 1: really pregnant, and she hides it. So she's spending a 464 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:31,320 Speaker 1: lot of time in denial, working hard to not admit 465 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:34,280 Speaker 1: to herself this is happening to her, and when it 466 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 1: finally does happen, she's not in a conscious state the 467 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,320 Speaker 1: way we would be saying, oh, I'm having a baby, 468 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,320 Speaker 1: I need to do something about this baby. It's still 469 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:50,080 Speaker 1: feelings of shame and embarrassment. This can't be really happening, 470 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:52,360 Speaker 1: and this baby is not real to me, And I'm 471 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:55,640 Speaker 1: not saying that it's acceptable, but I am describing the 472 00:31:55,680 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 1: psychological state that would make somebody, um go ahead and 473 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:05,320 Speaker 1: not see this as a real, living, precious baby that 474 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:11,120 Speaker 1: we would treasure. Let me just quote from Lego Batman. 475 00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 1: I hate everything you just said that you want and 476 00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:19,920 Speaker 1: I'm not but I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm not 477 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:25,240 Speaker 1: saying you're wrong. But what I am saying is that 478 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:33,479 Speaker 1: between her an honor student, an honor student, high school 479 00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:40,680 Speaker 1: grad who lived in an upper class money neighborhood, in 480 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:47,080 Speaker 1: a beautiful home with a backyard brick barbecue pit, and 481 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:56,360 Speaker 1: every privilege you can have in our society, she did 482 00:32:56,400 --> 00:33:01,600 Speaker 1: this to the baby. She is not in Jane. She 483 00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:04,520 Speaker 1: just graduated as an honor student for Pete's sake, as 484 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:09,600 Speaker 1: a varsity cheerleader heading off to college. She's not insane. 485 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:13,520 Speaker 1: Yes she may have been embarrassed, Yes she may have 486 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:17,640 Speaker 1: been panicked. Those are not defenses under the law. You're 487 00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:22,160 Speaker 1: asking me essentially to pick between the honor student gride 488 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:26,880 Speaker 1: and the innocent baby who can barely open its eyes 489 00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:31,960 Speaker 1: and counts on its mother to protect it. Well, authorities 490 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:33,800 Speaker 1: say they know who the father is but have not 491 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:37,360 Speaker 1: divulged it. But that that's really, in my mind, what 492 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:40,840 Speaker 1: you're asking me to do. And I can't pick the 493 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:44,000 Speaker 1: honor grad over the baby. I can't do that to 494 00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:47,720 Speaker 1: an innocent victim, because the mom is not innocent. She 495 00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:52,280 Speaker 1: may have been, as you say, panicked, embarrassed, wishing it away. 496 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:54,960 Speaker 1: Those were your words, and I think they're appropriate. I 497 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:58,240 Speaker 1: think everything you said was true, but that does not 498 00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:03,440 Speaker 1: equal a defense under our law. And that's correct, which 499 00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:07,760 Speaker 1: is why she's out on bail or a bond. However, 500 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:11,799 Speaker 1: it's important to understand that there is a reason why 501 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:16,120 Speaker 1: that happens, That something is going on within the eighteen 502 00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:19,440 Speaker 1: year old that's making her not accept that this is 503 00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:24,120 Speaker 1: a real condition, that this is a child that needs 504 00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:27,520 Speaker 1: to be cared for or sent to somebody who might 505 00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:31,120 Speaker 1: be able to love this baby, versus someone who's ashamed 506 00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:34,759 Speaker 1: and embarrassed. And it has nothing to do with the 507 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:38,399 Speaker 1: riches that she had or everything, if anything that made 508 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:41,600 Speaker 1: it worse. That she had everything going for her. I disagree. 509 00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:48,080 Speaker 1: She was educated, she had loving parents and every privilege 510 00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:53,000 Speaker 1: that millions of children wish they had. Yes, Nan, she 511 00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:56,520 Speaker 1: knew there were alternatives. She knew she could have an abortion, 512 00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:59,279 Speaker 1: she knew she could give the baby away, it a 513 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:02,600 Speaker 1: safe haven, she could have given she knew about adopted. 514 00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:05,840 Speaker 1: She knew all of that, but chose to murder the 515 00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:10,240 Speaker 1: baby and burn its body and bury it in the dirt. 516 00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:15,040 Speaker 1: But we have to understand what conscious knowing is. And 517 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:18,560 Speaker 1: in cases of neo native side, very often when it's 518 00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:23,919 Speaker 1: teenage girls or someone who's still a teen, it's not 519 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:27,759 Speaker 1: a conscious Oh, I think I won't give it up 520 00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:30,520 Speaker 1: for adoption. I'm going to murder it. It's much more 521 00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:35,200 Speaker 1: about denial, that magical thinking that says it's not happening. Well, 522 00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:39,120 Speaker 1: maybe she can deny that she's sitting in jail because 523 00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:41,920 Speaker 1: that's where she's going to end up. Art Harris, you 524 00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:45,200 Speaker 1: said there's a gag order. There's a gag order. What's 525 00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:48,760 Speaker 1: happening next? I can tell you that the prosecutor um 526 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:50,799 Speaker 1: supports the guests in a way that says she was 527 00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:54,759 Speaker 1: obsessed with quote appearances and how things appeared to the 528 00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:57,640 Speaker 1: outside world, and that her mother would not have wanted 529 00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:00,920 Speaker 1: the area of the neighbor's friends to know she was 530 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:04,000 Speaker 1: pregnant and had a baby. Who knows what kind of 531 00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:07,840 Speaker 1: pressure was going on inside or what kind of a 532 00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:13,080 Speaker 1: strange teenage hormonal thinking, uh was was happening combined with 533 00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:15,799 Speaker 1: you know, this sort of overlay. I don't know. I'm 534 00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:18,919 Speaker 1: I'm not judging, but it's that, well, what kind of 535 00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:24,960 Speaker 1: what kind of tapsy turvy world? Am I not judging? Uh? Hey, hey, hey, 536 00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:27,279 Speaker 1: hey hey, You're not on the front row at the 537 00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:30,080 Speaker 1: United Methist Church and I'm not the church lady. We're 538 00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:32,799 Speaker 1: not talking about judging or not judging. I'm gonna leave 539 00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:35,080 Speaker 1: that up to Heaven, all right, They can deal with 540 00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:38,200 Speaker 1: judging her. What I'm talking about is a verdict that 541 00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:40,480 Speaker 1: speaks the truth and what happened? Am I the only 542 00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:44,720 Speaker 1: one on this program that gives a flying fig about 543 00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:47,800 Speaker 1: the baby? Have I lost my mind? Joe Scott, please 544 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:50,560 Speaker 1: throw me a bone for Pete's sake? What kind of person? 545 00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:55,279 Speaker 1: What kind of person would sit there hold a baby, 546 00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:58,600 Speaker 1: cradle them in their arms, and let's just say that 547 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:02,560 Speaker 1: it was suffocation and place their hand over the nose 548 00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:05,960 Speaker 1: and the mouth of this baby and lay there as 549 00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:08,120 Speaker 1: the baby lay there in their arms, and watch it 550 00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:13,080 Speaker 1: squirm and wriggle and fight for air and be denied 551 00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:18,840 Speaker 1: that ability to draw breath. Uh you know, uh for me, 552 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:22,400 Speaker 1: that's a drop the mic moment um. I think that 553 00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:25,880 Speaker 1: that speaks volumes. The problem with this is is that 554 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:28,879 Speaker 1: they're gonna take the horrific nature of this and they're 555 00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:32,080 Speaker 1: gonna flip it around in court and they're gonna say, oh, well, 556 00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:34,880 Speaker 1: that's even further evidence that she was out of her mind. 557 00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:39,480 Speaker 1: And you know, I bet you dollars to donuts there 558 00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:42,319 Speaker 1: won't be accountability in this case. I'm gonna let I'm 559 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:45,040 Speaker 1: gonna pause for a moment. I let Art Harris and 560 00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:50,160 Speaker 1: Karen Stark. Let that soak in, and now all crime 561 00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:52,799 Speaker 1: stories I was sitting. Woman accused of trying to kill 562 00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:55,879 Speaker 1: her newborn son has reached a plea deal with prosecutors. 563 00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:58,680 Speaker 1: Ashley Howtson Raider gave birth in a University of Iowa 564 00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:01,480 Speaker 1: hospital bathroom laugh May. She put the newborn in a 565 00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:03,600 Speaker 1: pillow case and left it in a trash can, where 566 00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:06,560 Speaker 1: it was found alive by hospital staff. Howson Rader was 567 00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:09,520 Speaker 1: originally charged with attempted murder. The charge was dropped during 568 00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:12,120 Speaker 1: a plea hearing. Instead, she pled guilty to child endangerment 569 00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:14,680 Speaker 1: and abandonment of a dependent person. She faces up to 570 00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:19,840 Speaker 1: twelve years in prison. A newborn baby flushed down the toilet? 571 00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:25,560 Speaker 1: What a newborn baby flushed down the toilet? I never 572 00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:28,960 Speaker 1: thought I would be putting those words together in one sentence. 573 00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:33,280 Speaker 1: Joining me right now from dailymail dot Com is Sean Waltz. 574 00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:37,960 Speaker 1: What can you tell me about Ashley Howson rat Ashley 575 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,880 Speaker 1: Holtson Rader, twenty four years of age, gave birth on 576 00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:45,400 Speaker 1: May eight inside the restroom of the University of Iowa 577 00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:49,440 Speaker 1: Hospitals and Clinics. She believed her baby had died during birth. 578 00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:52,120 Speaker 1: She attempts to flush the baby down the toilet. When 579 00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:55,680 Speaker 1: that's unsuccessful, she then wraps the infant in the pillow 580 00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:58,600 Speaker 1: case and puts it in a trash can. She leaves 581 00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:01,720 Speaker 1: and it's found later by little stuff and the baby 582 00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:05,560 Speaker 1: is still alive. Dis Girl, Ashley Howson Raider and I've 583 00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:07,600 Speaker 1: got conflict in many ports, but I think she's twenty 584 00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:11,799 Speaker 1: two years old, flushes her baby down the toilet, then 585 00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:15,040 Speaker 1: claims she had no idea that she was pregnant. She 586 00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:18,440 Speaker 1: says the baby was dead because it didn't cry. She 587 00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:21,000 Speaker 1: then puts the baby in a pillow case and leaves 588 00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:27,319 Speaker 1: it in the trash can, cleans the bathroom, and leaves Okay, 589 00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:30,919 Speaker 1: did you know this? Shawn Walsh from dailymail dot com. 590 00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:34,440 Speaker 1: We found state court records from May two thousand fifteen 591 00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:40,680 Speaker 1: with a an order establishing fraternity and support for another 592 00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:44,520 Speaker 1: child she gave birth to. So it's really hard for 593 00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:47,160 Speaker 1: me to believe that you give birth to one baby, 594 00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:49,719 Speaker 1: and let me tell you that's an original grande. Let 595 00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:52,600 Speaker 1: me tell both of you that I would remember it. 596 00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:57,239 Speaker 1: But then when she has the next baby and flushes 597 00:39:57,239 --> 00:39:59,600 Speaker 1: it down the como yet says she has no idea 598 00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:04,240 Speaker 1: that she was pregnant. What about that? Sean? Yeah, look, Nancy, 599 00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:07,760 Speaker 1: it's very hard to believe. And um, it's very very sad. 600 00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:16,200 Speaker 1: I mean, look, she didn't know. Okay, I'll agree that 601 00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:20,000 Speaker 1: it is sad in a way. All I could do 602 00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:24,200 Speaker 1: is say that's a felony. And guess what, Bethany Marshall, 603 00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:28,720 Speaker 1: she's not even in jail. She has been released from jail. 604 00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:32,600 Speaker 1: She's out walking free. She tried to flush a baby. 605 00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:36,839 Speaker 1: She did flush a baby down the toilet. It came 606 00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:40,839 Speaker 1: back up. And that that's more than just sad. I'm 607 00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:45,480 Speaker 1: thinking about the baby. Yes, that is attempted. That was 608 00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:50,360 Speaker 1: done to an adult then be attempted murder. What she 609 00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:52,600 Speaker 1: was in a medical center. I'm not sure why she 610 00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:54,880 Speaker 1: was at the hospital, but sort of my thought about 611 00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:59,400 Speaker 1: this was, was she going to undergo some medical evaluation 612 00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:02,239 Speaker 1: or she had to it would be documented that she 613 00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:05,080 Speaker 1: was pregnant. Was she about to give birth? Was she 614 00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:08,440 Speaker 1: evading the whole labor process? Was she in labor, she 615 00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:11,160 Speaker 1: gave birth, she did not want to be a parent, 616 00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:13,920 Speaker 1: so then she she ditched the baby in the toilet. 617 00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:16,480 Speaker 1: I mean, it's sort of all very strange that she 618 00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:19,279 Speaker 1: was able to do this in a hospital setting. And 619 00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:22,480 Speaker 1: you know, the research shows that women who killed their 620 00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:25,920 Speaker 1: babies often do not bond with the babies while they're pregnant. 621 00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:29,000 Speaker 1: In fact, some will deny that they're pregnant altogether. But 622 00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:31,560 Speaker 1: the fact that she was actually in a medical setting 623 00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:34,640 Speaker 1: implies that she knew she was pregnant and there was 624 00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:37,280 Speaker 1: some cognizance of the life of the baby, which flies 625 00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:39,400 Speaker 1: in the face of what she's saying, which is that 626 00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:41,840 Speaker 1: she thought that the baby was dead. The reality is 627 00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:49,640 Speaker 1: that she is walking free after flushing a newborn down 628 00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:53,359 Speaker 1: a toilet, and when that didn't work. When the baby 629 00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:59,239 Speaker 1: managed to come back up after the flush, she then 630 00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:05,680 Speaker 1: threw it in the trash. Right now, because of medical protections, 631 00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:09,279 Speaker 1: we don't know the condition of the baby. Right now, 632 00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:12,239 Speaker 1: we can't find out how the baby is doing. But 633 00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:15,160 Speaker 1: I do know that court records show, as I mentioned 634 00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:19,080 Speaker 1: in order from May two thousand fifteen, where she housen 635 00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:23,040 Speaker 1: Rader petitioned the court to prove paternity, which means there's 636 00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:25,560 Speaker 1: some guy out there claiming that he's not the father 637 00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:29,040 Speaker 1: of another child and demanding child support for a baby 638 00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:33,600 Speaker 1: girl she previously gave birth to. According to w h 639 00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:40,280 Speaker 1: O t V, that daughter born around two thou suffers 640 00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:43,680 Speaker 1: from health issues. We know that. So is this all 641 00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:48,000 Speaker 1: an attempt to get child support or or state support? 642 00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:51,920 Speaker 1: Sean Walsh Nancy, Anything's possible. But I made with this 643 00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:54,800 Speaker 1: this girl, And what is extraordinary about this is a 644 00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:58,000 Speaker 1: simple Google search. Once again, it's all about Google. Would 645 00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:01,080 Speaker 1: have revealed that in Iowa, where she lives, she could 646 00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:03,680 Speaker 1: have left her baby at the hospital up to fourteen 647 00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:07,000 Speaker 1: days old without fear of prosecution for abandonment under the 648 00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:10,480 Speaker 1: Iowa State Department of Human Services. Who allow you to 649 00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:13,040 Speaker 1: do that if you do not want the child, so 650 00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:16,480 Speaker 1: you have options, and she chose to take the route 651 00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:19,000 Speaker 1: of trying to get rid of her child by killing 652 00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:21,879 Speaker 1: it rather than just handing it over. And she could 653 00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:25,000 Speaker 1: have faced no questions and no charges by giving that 654 00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:30,560 Speaker 1: child up, And it's alleged she chose the other You know, 655 00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:36,120 Speaker 1: another issue. Dr Bethany Marshall, renowned psychologists joining me out 656 00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:39,200 Speaker 1: of l A and Sean Waltz joining me from daily 657 00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:43,000 Speaker 1: mail dot com. Think about it. There is this other baby, 658 00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:45,000 Speaker 1: and if you look on her Facebook, if this is 659 00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:47,240 Speaker 1: the right baby in the right person, which it appears 660 00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:51,160 Speaker 1: to be, the baby has the living baby. The first 661 00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:54,680 Speaker 1: baby has a track, a track kyartomy and a breathing. 662 00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:57,960 Speaker 1: To you, what do you think happened to it? I mean, 663 00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:03,359 Speaker 1: I don't know. Why would that be child abuse? Yeah? 664 00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:06,160 Speaker 1: It does it make I'm very concerned. And when you 665 00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:11,920 Speaker 1: look at this girl, she's very cute. Seems to me 666 00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:14,920 Speaker 1: seems normal. I don't know if that's true. What were 667 00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:18,279 Speaker 1: you telling me about the Safe Haven Act in Iowa? Sean, 668 00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:21,239 Speaker 1: watch what happens in Iowa. If you have a child 669 00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:23,319 Speaker 1: and you don't tell you can care for that child. 670 00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:26,239 Speaker 1: You have up to fourteen days after the child's birth, 671 00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:28,440 Speaker 1: to hand the child over to authorities, and you will 672 00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:31,320 Speaker 1: not face charges of abandonment. So that was her option. 673 00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:34,640 Speaker 1: She could have done that. She chose, though, allegedly, to 674 00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:37,480 Speaker 1: go into the bathroom give birth, try and flush the 675 00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:40,279 Speaker 1: baby down the toilet, and then that didn't work, so 676 00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:42,160 Speaker 1: she wrapped it into pillow case and stuffed it in 677 00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:45,800 Speaker 1: the trash. I mean she had an option, and allegedly 678 00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:48,839 Speaker 1: she chose not to take that option up. This all 679 00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:52,719 Speaker 1: went down on a Sunday evening around PM in a 680 00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:57,280 Speaker 1: restroom at the John Colton Pavilion at a hospital complex. 681 00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:01,279 Speaker 1: This claims that two year old Ashley hots And Raider 682 00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:05,279 Speaker 1: of Davenport, Iowa, entered the bathroom and gave birth to 683 00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:08,880 Speaker 1: the baby. She claims she didn't know she was pregnant 684 00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:11,480 Speaker 1: the whole time, even though she's had children before, and 685 00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:15,320 Speaker 1: entered the bathroom, then thought the baby was dead because 686 00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:18,520 Speaker 1: it didn't cry. As Shaun Walts tells you, she flushes 687 00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:20,800 Speaker 1: the baby down the toilet. When that didn't work and 688 00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:24,080 Speaker 1: the baby emerged, she put the baby in a pillow case, 689 00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:28,239 Speaker 1: which she threw in a trash can, then leaves the bathroom. 690 00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:34,320 Speaker 1: Employees later find the baby miraculously still alive. We cannot 691 00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:37,560 Speaker 1: find out the condition of the baby because that is 692 00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:41,719 Speaker 1: protected information, so we don't know, but we know this 693 00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:45,279 Speaker 1: isn't the first time there have been issues surrounding the 694 00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:47,800 Speaker 1: help of one of her children. Sean, Why is she 695 00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:51,320 Speaker 1: only charged with one count of child endangerment? That's just 696 00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:55,520 Speaker 1: that's a misdemeanor. It doesn't make sense. Originally she was 697 00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:58,160 Speaker 1: charged with attempted murder and the childes were downraded, so 698 00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:00,800 Speaker 1: it makes no sense that it's one of those cases. 699 00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:03,839 Speaker 1: We're going to be watching very very closely because there 700 00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:05,759 Speaker 1: needs to be a deterrent here so people don't do that, 701 00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:09,239 Speaker 1: especially Nancy, since as we've discussed, there are options. If 702 00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:11,719 Speaker 1: you're in this situation where you do not want to 703 00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:14,520 Speaker 1: raise your child, you have fourteen days to take that 704 00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:17,400 Speaker 1: child to authorities, no questions will be asked, and you 705 00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:21,160 Speaker 1: can hand that child over anyone prostituted for it. We're 706 00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:24,080 Speaker 1: on it, Sean, watch dailymail dot com dot door. Bethan 707 00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:28,600 Speaker 1: Marshall joining me from l A Nancy Grace Crime Stories 708 00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:30,400 Speaker 1: signing nice Goodbye for