WEBVTT - Simon Read: Scotland Yard 0:00:00.800 --> 0:00:05.400 This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised. 0:00:13.119 --> 0:00:14.440 One of the things that struck me when I was 0:00:14.480 --> 0:00:17.400 writing this book, Boks Scott people really put a lot 0:00:17.400 --> 0:00:20.680 of grim effort into mergency people. You didn't just shoot someone, 0:00:20.880 --> 0:00:24.320 you did really destroyed. The level of violence was really 0:00:24.360 --> 0:00:25.040 off the charts. 0:00:31.160 --> 0:00:35.000 I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 0:00:35.080 --> 0:00:37.800 in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the 0:00:37.840 --> 0:00:41.680 podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career, 0:00:41.920 --> 0:00:45.680 research for my many audio and book projects has taken 0:00:45.720 --> 0:00:48.960 me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down 0:00:49.000 --> 0:00:53.040 with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, 0:00:53.120 --> 0:00:57.920 filmmakers and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious 0:00:57.960 --> 0:01:01.400 true crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, 0:01:01.680 --> 0:01:04.839 both good and bad, and it's a deep dive into 0:01:04.880 --> 0:01:10.639 the unpublished details behind their stories. Some of my most 0:01:10.760 --> 0:01:13.920 favorite true crime stories in history come from the UK, 0:01:14.520 --> 0:01:17.640 specifically London, so I was very excited to talk to 0:01:17.720 --> 0:01:21.760 author Simon Read about his book Scotland Yard, a History 0:01:21.800 --> 0:01:26.240 of the London Police Force's most infamous murder cases. Read 0:01:26.280 --> 0:01:30.240 investigated some of Scotland Yard's most interesting cases, and now 0:01:30.280 --> 0:01:36.000 he'll tell us about some of them. So I erroneously 0:01:36.440 --> 0:01:40.399 assumed that you were American or Canadian based on your accent, 0:01:40.560 --> 0:01:45.039 and I was terribly mistaken. Tell me about your background before, briefly, 0:01:45.080 --> 0:01:47.480 before we start talking about how you got involved with 0:01:47.520 --> 0:01:49.720 a book about Scotland Yard and its history. 0:01:50.360 --> 0:01:54.280 Sure, I am British by birth, born in London, North London. 0:01:54.280 --> 0:01:56.880 Actually Hendon moved out to the States when I was seven. 0:01:57.360 --> 0:02:00.600 My parents' job brought us out here. I am celebrated citizen. 0:02:00.680 --> 0:02:03.280 I am very much English at heart, although having lived 0:02:03.320 --> 0:02:05.680 in the United States for whatever is forty plus years, 0:02:05.880 --> 0:02:08.880 so I've always been an angler phile. I'm always looking 0:02:08.919 --> 0:02:12.800 for excuses to write about England or London in particular. 0:02:12.919 --> 0:02:14.600 Most of my books. If you go back and you 0:02:14.639 --> 0:02:16.560 look at the books that I've written, I think, with 0:02:16.680 --> 0:02:18.080 the exception of two of them, they all have a 0:02:18.080 --> 0:02:20.920 British theme. So any excuse i'd have to get back there, 0:02:21.160 --> 0:02:23.840 do research, sit in a pub, I'll. 0:02:23.720 --> 0:02:26.560 Go for it good well. As an American who has 0:02:26.560 --> 0:02:30.400 written about a very well known British story, John Reginald Christy, 0:02:30.880 --> 0:02:33.840 I wanted to really figure out what your bona fides were, 0:02:33.880 --> 0:02:37.040 and it sounds like you're all set. You've grown up 0:02:37.040 --> 0:02:37.760 with these stories. 0:02:37.800 --> 0:02:40.839 I'm sure, Yeah, I have, am I And by the way, 0:02:40.880 --> 0:02:44.240 Reginald Christy one of the most disturbing cases. Yeah, I've 0:02:44.240 --> 0:02:46.440 ever I've stood. I wrote about him in another book 0:02:46.480 --> 0:02:51.320 of mine. But my paternal grandfather was a detective with 0:02:51.400 --> 0:02:52.119 Scotland Yard. 0:02:52.280 --> 0:02:54.360 Wow. Well, okay, what do you think he would have 0:02:54.360 --> 0:02:56.920 thought of your book? You've gotten some really great reviews, 0:02:57.120 --> 0:02:59.560 and I mean, I bet he would be thrilled. I'm 0:02:59.560 --> 0:03:02.840 assuming you know, I think he would have. Well, let's 0:03:02.840 --> 0:03:05.480 talk about this book. We much of the time talk 0:03:05.520 --> 0:03:08.000 to people who are digging into one big story for 0:03:08.040 --> 0:03:10.239 their book or for their piece of the film or 0:03:10.280 --> 0:03:13.680 whatever they're doing. So for you, because we're talking about 0:03:13.680 --> 0:03:17.040 the history of Scotland Yard, which is storied and traumatizing 0:03:17.160 --> 0:03:19.680 and wonderful all at the same time. You know, you 0:03:19.840 --> 0:03:23.840 cover a wide array of crimes and I wanted to 0:03:23.880 --> 0:03:26.560 dig into two or three or more or less, like 0:03:26.639 --> 0:03:28.639 we're just going to see how it goes that I 0:03:28.680 --> 0:03:32.000 think are pretty pivotal. And I want you to start 0:03:32.040 --> 0:03:36.120 with Ratcliffe Highway murders because it's one of to me, 0:03:36.680 --> 0:03:41.840 the most interesting and so important because you know, I 0:03:41.960 --> 0:03:45.880 know that these murders were really what led to the 0:03:46.040 --> 0:03:51.280 organization of the Metropolitan Police, which was the first organization 0:03:51.360 --> 0:03:55.040 in the world, the first police, real police organization, right right. 0:03:55.320 --> 0:03:57.760 And what's great about that story is you get to 0:03:57.800 --> 0:04:00.280 talk about and tell everybody who doesn't know out the 0:04:00.280 --> 0:04:04.600 Bow Street Runners and how they interacted with the tams 0:04:04.680 --> 0:04:08.400 River Police. And you know, I will tell you full disclosure. 0:04:08.520 --> 0:04:11.120 I took myself down a couple of years ago when 0:04:11.120 --> 0:04:13.600 I was in London teaching. I took myself down to 0:04:13.840 --> 0:04:18.200 the River Police Museum and got a personalized tour from 0:04:18.279 --> 0:04:20.599 Rob Jefferies, who is a I think he's I don't 0:04:20.600 --> 0:04:23.560 know if he's a constable there, but he's retired and 0:04:23.600 --> 0:04:26.640 he loves talking about that case and why it was important. 0:04:27.080 --> 0:04:29.560 And so I'm going to geek out pretty big time, 0:04:29.640 --> 0:04:30.600 I think on this story. 0:04:31.279 --> 0:04:33.760 And I'm jealous because when I researched this book, I 0:04:33.800 --> 0:04:36.720 was working during the pandemic, during lockdowns, so I had 0:04:36.760 --> 0:04:39.479 to rely on sort of online you know, newspapers and 0:04:39.480 --> 0:04:42.360 so to go and like chop the ground as it were. 0:04:42.800 --> 0:04:44.800 I wish I could have done more that. But you 0:04:44.880 --> 0:04:48.039 have the Ratcliffe Liveway murders an extremely important case, and 0:04:48.080 --> 0:04:50.480 you're right it does lead to eventually leads to the 0:04:50.560 --> 0:04:53.080 establishment of Scotland Yard in eighteen twenty nine. But the 0:04:53.120 --> 0:04:57.040 Raclife Liway murders actually happened in eighteen eleven. There's an 0:04:57.080 --> 0:05:01.479 eighteen year stretch between the murders and the formation of 0:05:01.760 --> 0:05:05.920 Scotland Yard. But the murders happened in December of eighteen 0:05:05.960 --> 0:05:08.960 eleven on the Ratcliffe Highway, which is the main east 0:05:09.000 --> 0:05:12.640 thoroughfare out of London, and it's a very it's a 0:05:12.720 --> 0:05:16.960 dangerous place, doesn't have a great reputation. It's known for debauchery, drunkenness, 0:05:17.000 --> 0:05:21.080 vice and violence. It's popular with sailors. In fact, it's 0:05:21.080 --> 0:05:24.359 called the Regent Street for sailors of it. Today you 0:05:24.480 --> 0:05:27.960 have a lot of men who work the Thames who 0:05:28.000 --> 0:05:31.720 live off the highway. They frequent the bars, the taverns, 0:05:32.240 --> 0:05:35.479 the shops there. The highway is the home of a 0:05:35.520 --> 0:05:38.400 gentleman named Timothy Maher. He's a he's a former sailor 0:05:39.240 --> 0:05:42.760 with the Easterndia Company and he sets up a shop 0:05:42.839 --> 0:05:45.440 at twenty nine Ratcliffe Highway. He's twenty four years old, 0:05:45.640 --> 0:05:48.919 and he establishes a lnen business on the highway in 0:05:49.520 --> 0:05:53.279 April of eighteen eleven. It's him, it's his wife, it's 0:05:53.279 --> 0:05:57.440 their three month old son, Timothy Junior, and he wants 0:05:57.480 --> 0:06:01.040 to know become a businessman and the life at sea 0:06:01.080 --> 0:06:04.000 behind him. So he sets up shot there and all 0:06:04.120 --> 0:06:07.640 is going well. Business is doing good, and he has 0:06:07.680 --> 0:06:10.120 a servant girl named Margaret Jewel. And on the night 0:06:10.160 --> 0:06:15.000 of December seventh, eighteen eleven, he sends Margaret out to 0:06:15.040 --> 0:06:19.160 fetch some oysters and pay the baker's bill. And it's 0:06:19.200 --> 0:06:22.840 around midnight when she leaves Timothy Marris's shop. Timothy's wife, 0:06:22.920 --> 0:06:26.000 Celia is down in the basement kitchen feeding the baby. 0:06:26.520 --> 0:06:30.560 Timothy is preparing for the next day's business. And Margaret 0:06:30.640 --> 0:06:33.000 leaves the shop, and like I say, it's around midnight. 0:06:33.120 --> 0:06:36.120 Pretty much everything is closed up. She goes to pay 0:06:36.160 --> 0:06:38.360 the baker's bill, she finds the baker's close. She goes 0:06:38.400 --> 0:06:40.840 to get some oysters, she finds the oyster shop is closed. 0:06:41.200 --> 0:06:44.640 She returns to Timothy morris shop and she's not gone 0:06:44.760 --> 0:06:47.479 very long. But when she gets back, it's very strange. 0:06:47.560 --> 0:06:51.799 The place is shuttered up. The chaser drawn across the windows. 0:06:51.839 --> 0:06:54.359 The door is locked, all the lights are out, and 0:06:54.440 --> 0:06:56.600 she knocks on the door and she doesn't get a response, 0:06:56.920 --> 0:07:00.400 and she knocks again, no response. Her knocks on the 0:07:00.440 --> 0:07:04.800 door become more panicked, and she hears a noise behind 0:07:04.839 --> 0:07:07.760 the door. She hears what she describes as a footfall 0:07:07.920 --> 0:07:10.760 on the stairs inside the shop, and then she hears 0:07:11.360 --> 0:07:14.400 the muffled cry of the baby very month full of 0:07:14.440 --> 0:07:16.760 Timothy Junior, and this sort of puts her into a panic, 0:07:16.920 --> 0:07:19.240 and she starts really like patting on the door, and 0:07:19.320 --> 0:07:22.360 this gets the attention of a night watchman who happens 0:07:22.400 --> 0:07:25.720 to be walking by. Night watchmen were sort of an 0:07:25.720 --> 0:07:28.440 early form of law enforcement in London at the time. 0:07:28.480 --> 0:07:32.600 They patrolled the streets between sunset and sunrise, armed with 0:07:32.720 --> 0:07:35.360 a rattle and a whistle, and they were meant to 0:07:35.400 --> 0:07:38.840 sort of raise the alarm if they encountered any commotion. 0:07:39.040 --> 0:07:41.640 And he comes across Margaret. He asks what the problem is, 0:07:41.760 --> 0:07:44.400 She explains the situation. He starts banging on the door. 0:07:44.800 --> 0:07:48.600 This attracts the attention of a neighbor who hops from 0:07:49.240 --> 0:07:53.200 his house into Timothy Morris's backyard and he goes inside 0:07:53.240 --> 0:07:55.360 the shop. He finds a lick candle on the stairs. 0:07:55.360 --> 0:07:58.880 He picks it up. He goes into the shop and 0:07:59.280 --> 0:08:03.400 he walks into a horrific, horrific crime scene. Timothy's Waxelia. 0:08:04.040 --> 0:08:07.720 They've been butchered, now not just murdered, but butcherd horrendously, 0:08:07.800 --> 0:08:09.960 throat slashed down to the bone. Their heads have been 0:08:09.960 --> 0:08:13.320 carved in. They have a young servant boyd His brains 0:08:13.320 --> 0:08:15.240 are actually spattered up onto the ceiling. I mean he's 0:08:15.280 --> 0:08:18.520 been beaten with such vorocity. The neighbor opens the door. 0:08:18.640 --> 0:08:20.920 A crowd that's been now gathered outside the marshop. They 0:08:20.960 --> 0:08:24.200 rush in and see this awful scene, and someone says, 0:08:24.200 --> 0:08:26.560 where's the baby, And they find the baby in its 0:08:26.640 --> 0:08:30.120 crib down in the basement kitchen. The baby's throat's been splashed, 0:08:30.320 --> 0:08:35.040 no mercy shown. This causes a huge shock. It's interesting, 0:08:35.120 --> 0:08:37.040 you know, London in this time we tend to think 0:08:37.080 --> 0:08:39.200 of it as this place where murder happened all the time. 0:08:39.480 --> 0:08:42.760 I don't have specific numbers, but throughout the nineteenth century London, 0:08:43.080 --> 0:08:46.960 seventy five percent of the crimes were theft and robbery, 0:08:47.400 --> 0:08:49.960 and murder only accounted for ten percent of the crime. 0:08:50.040 --> 0:08:52.760 So when a murder did happen, It garnered a lot 0:08:52.880 --> 0:08:56.240 of a lot of headlines and so this murder obviously 0:08:56.400 --> 0:08:59.400 sent shock waves. The city London doesn't have a police 0:08:59.440 --> 0:09:02.200 force at this time, like we discussed, they have this 0:09:02.400 --> 0:09:09.040 missmash patchwork of parish constables and night watchmen and then 0:09:09.200 --> 0:09:12.439 the Bow Street Runners who are work out of the 0:09:12.440 --> 0:09:15.680 Ball Street Magistrate's Court. They report to the Chief Magistrate 0:09:15.760 --> 0:09:19.240 Henry Building. They have the power to investigate crime, but 0:09:19.440 --> 0:09:21.360 they're they're they're a small force. And there's also the 0:09:21.360 --> 0:09:24.640 Thames River Police and try to keep all on order 0:09:25.000 --> 0:09:26.839 on the Thames. But there's no sort of there's no 0:09:26.880 --> 0:09:30.240 coordination between any of these these entities. They don't they 0:09:30.240 --> 0:09:33.959 don't talk to each other, they don't share information, so 0:09:34.000 --> 0:09:36.120 there's there would be nothing what you consider sort of 0:09:36.280 --> 0:09:40.640 coordinated investigation, certainly by today's standards, don't find really any 0:09:40.720 --> 0:09:42.520 clues that the Marti crime team. What they do find 0:09:42.720 --> 0:09:46.040 is a it's called a mall and it's a hamm 0:09:46.040 --> 0:09:49.360 are used in shipbuilding. It has like a Wesdend use 0:09:49.400 --> 0:09:52.560 for plying, hammering and spikes and playing out when when 0:09:52.559 --> 0:09:56.080 building ships, and that's found upstairs. But the crime team 0:09:56.080 --> 0:09:59.280 doesn't really yield anything else, and the city's kind of 0:09:59.320 --> 0:10:01.920 reeling from all of this, and so trying to figure 0:10:01.920 --> 0:10:05.920 out what happened. And then twelve days later, on December nineteenth, 0:10:05.960 --> 0:10:07.280 the same thing happens again. 0:10:10.679 --> 0:10:13.280 Let me ask you like a series of questions here. Yeah, 0:10:13.400 --> 0:10:15.679 one thing that I wanted to make clear and correct 0:10:15.720 --> 0:10:17.679 me if I'm wrong here. My understanding is that when 0:10:17.679 --> 0:10:20.480 we say Ratcliff Highway, which was supposedly known as the 0:10:20.480 --> 0:10:23.559 most dangerous road in the world, it's not a highway 0:10:23.600 --> 0:10:25.760 the way we think, certainly at least Americans think of 0:10:25.760 --> 0:10:28.200 a highway. What would you consider it like a large 0:10:28.320 --> 0:10:29.439 road or. 0:10:29.400 --> 0:10:32.080 It's a large road. It's a large road. It's a road. 0:10:32.240 --> 0:10:34.680 It's a road aligne with shops on either side. It's 0:10:34.720 --> 0:10:38.040 got little alleyways going off the side of it, you know, 0:10:38.120 --> 0:10:42.079 cram with tenement housing and sailors cottages. It was called 0:10:42.080 --> 0:10:43.360 a highway back in the day because it was one 0:10:43.360 --> 0:10:44.960 of the main thorough bears in an out of the 0:10:44.960 --> 0:10:48.520 city on the east end. But it's not our highway 0:10:48.679 --> 0:10:50.880 like we think of it today, with four lanes of traffic, 0:10:51.240 --> 0:10:53.800 and so it's more think of it more like a 0:10:53.920 --> 0:10:55.520 high street. A busy main road. 0:10:55.800 --> 0:10:59.840 Yeah, okay, so in that area when there is a crime, 0:11:00.080 --> 0:11:03.160 a theft or whatever, how is the decision made between 0:11:03.240 --> 0:11:05.120 to what You've got the boat street runners, the night 0:11:05.160 --> 0:11:09.120 watchmen and the tims River Police. Did I miss anybody? 0:11:09.160 --> 0:11:11.040 Is there any other law enforcement entity? 0:11:11.240 --> 0:11:14.360 No, that's that's that's sort of yeah, that's a good question. 0:11:14.440 --> 0:11:17.439 There wasn't really any sort of chain of command. This 0:11:17.640 --> 0:11:19.840 is the problem. This is one of the problems with 0:11:19.920 --> 0:11:22.640 London at that time. It doesn't have a centually organized 0:11:22.679 --> 0:11:25.160 peace force. And by that we mean a force that 0:11:25.280 --> 0:11:29.200 has the resources and command structure in place to ensure 0:11:29.520 --> 0:11:35.800 uniformity and coordination across a large metropolitan area and across investigations. 0:11:35.800 --> 0:11:40.720 So each sort of the constables, the nightwatchmen, bow street Runners, 0:11:41.040 --> 0:11:44.720 the taserra police, they're all sort of doing their own thing. 0:11:44.920 --> 0:11:47.240 And so this is one of the problems why nothing 0:11:47.320 --> 0:11:49.440 sort of happens with this case in terms of white 0:11:49.520 --> 0:11:53.760 cohesive investigation, because there's no cohesive law enforcement framework to 0:11:53.880 --> 0:11:57.360 tackle a crime of this magnitude, and this crime it 0:11:57.440 --> 0:12:02.000 generates a huge shockwave. It really generates a love look 0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:05.000 shock that won't be seen until you know the jack 0:12:05.040 --> 0:12:08.320 the Ripper killings in eighteen eighty eight. But the difference 0:12:08.400 --> 0:12:11.800 is when Jack the Rippers doing his stuff in Whitechapel, 0:12:12.200 --> 0:12:15.679 he's being hunted by a Metropolitan police force with more 0:12:15.720 --> 0:12:19.079 than ten thousand officers. Yeah, now he's you know, the 0:12:19.320 --> 0:12:23.600 Ratcliff Hyery murders being hunted by this ragtag, uncoordinated bunch 0:12:23.640 --> 0:12:25.680 of unprofessional law enforcement officers. 0:12:25.720 --> 0:12:29.480 Basically, I mean, I always got the impression that before 0:12:29.880 --> 0:12:33.920 the Metropolitan Police were formed, these entities were always on defense. 0:12:33.960 --> 0:12:37.080 They were never playing. There's no offense. Like it was like, 0:12:37.160 --> 0:12:39.440 we're there if something bad happens, but we're not going 0:12:39.520 --> 0:12:42.400 to like prevent you from you if we see something. 0:12:42.520 --> 0:12:45.920 You know, that's absolutely correct, that's actually correct. They're always 0:12:45.960 --> 0:12:49.160 responding to stuff. They're never sort of like out there 0:12:49.480 --> 0:12:52.400 trying to suck stuff from happening. They you know, like 0:12:52.400 --> 0:12:54.760 I said, you've got the night watchmen who are meant 0:12:54.760 --> 0:12:57.400 to patrol the streets at night, and if they see something, 0:12:57.480 --> 0:12:59.680 they make a noise with their rattle and they blow 0:12:59.679 --> 0:13:02.120 their w That's how it's mental work. But if you 0:13:02.160 --> 0:13:04.240 read the newspaper accounts of the day, you find out 0:13:04.280 --> 0:13:06.560 most of them are sitting in their guardhouses getting drunk 0:13:06.559 --> 0:13:09.440 on gin, you know, and aren't very effective. You have 0:13:09.480 --> 0:13:13.439 the parish constables who serve a law enforcement officers for 0:13:13.480 --> 0:13:16.400 the various districts and parishes throughout London. They have law 0:13:16.480 --> 0:13:19.040 enforcement power and that they can sort of make arrests 0:13:19.040 --> 0:13:21.760 and you know, if they see trouble they can haul 0:13:21.840 --> 0:13:24.280 someone off to court. But you know it's either a 0:13:24.360 --> 0:13:26.800 volunteer gig or a low paying wage. You know, these 0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:30.120 aren't they're not very effective. And then you know the 0:13:30.160 --> 0:13:33.120 Bow Street Runners. They are sort of the first for 0:13:33.320 --> 0:13:36.000 runner to a proper police force, but they're very limited 0:13:36.040 --> 0:13:38.720 in their scope. And other magistrate offices in London set 0:13:38.800 --> 0:13:42.120 up something similar to what Bow Street is doing with 0:13:42.280 --> 0:13:46.120 these constables, but again there's no coordination. And then you 0:13:46.120 --> 0:13:48.280 have the River Police wore out on the water, so 0:13:48.320 --> 0:13:50.200 they're kind of like a forward of the identity. 0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:53.640 So let me summarize so far. So December eighteen eleven, 0:13:53.720 --> 0:13:56.000 I have to assume it's just colder than hell in London. 0:13:56.520 --> 0:13:59.640 In the most dangerous street in the world. You've got 0:13:59.679 --> 0:14:02.600 the mar family, which is just an upstanding family with 0:14:02.679 --> 0:14:07.640 their business. A young couple they are murdered brutally. I mean, 0:14:07.880 --> 0:14:11.440 just horrifically murdered, as well as their baby and a 0:14:11.480 --> 0:14:14.559 servant boy. How did we say the young boy was. 0:14:14.840 --> 0:14:17.680 Twelve or fourteen? Can he's a young teen? 0:14:18.280 --> 0:14:22.080 Yeah? Not enough to defend himself, I'm assuming. Okay, now 0:14:22.120 --> 0:14:24.760 we just jump in immediately into the mystery before we 0:14:24.800 --> 0:14:27.520 get to the second set of murders here. I have 0:14:27.680 --> 0:14:31.440 always wondered, and I don't remember if I asked Rob Jeffries, 0:14:31.520 --> 0:14:33.920 my wonderful tour guide on the river, about this, But 0:14:34.240 --> 0:14:36.560 did they really expect this was at midnight? Is that 0:14:36.560 --> 0:14:37.240 when she went out? 0:14:37.400 --> 0:14:39.920 Yeah, she goes out. She goes out shortly before midnight. 0:14:40.000 --> 0:14:42.840 And if I remember on the newspaper accounts, she's only 0:14:42.880 --> 0:14:45.320 gone for about fifteen or twenty minutes or so. 0:14:45.320 --> 0:14:48.760 So is that normal that a bakery and an oyster 0:14:48.840 --> 0:14:51.720 shop would be open at midnight in this area? I mean, 0:14:51.760 --> 0:14:54.640 why would she do that? Why would he do that? Understand? 0:14:54.840 --> 0:14:57.680 I thought the same thing. So I'd heard of the 0:14:57.760 --> 0:15:01.080 Ragnifiery murders prior to writing this book, but this was 0:15:01.080 --> 0:15:03.320 the first time i'd ever sort of like researched the crimes, 0:15:03.440 --> 0:15:06.120 and I didn't know the specifics necessarily about them, and 0:15:06.160 --> 0:15:10.280 when I read that, I thought that was very very odd, 0:15:10.800 --> 0:15:13.160 you know, like the righttically by the way, like you said, 0:15:13.680 --> 0:15:16.320 very dangerous reputation back one of the newspapers said it 0:15:16.360 --> 0:15:19.720 was representative all of all that was dirty, disorderly and debased. 0:15:20.720 --> 0:15:25.160 So it seems sending out a young servant girl after midnight, 0:15:25.640 --> 0:15:28.120 at midnight to you know, track down oysters and pay 0:15:28.160 --> 0:15:31.440 the baker, it's a weird it's a weird decision to make, 0:15:31.520 --> 0:15:33.560 and that the fact that you know, a baker would 0:15:33.560 --> 0:15:35.240 be open at midnight or an oyster shot would be 0:15:35.240 --> 0:15:37.840 open at midnight, doesn't make much sense. One of the 0:15:37.880 --> 0:15:41.520 newspaper counts I found where they Margaret Jewel is giving 0:15:41.520 --> 0:15:43.240 tesscona during an inquest. She says, you know, when she 0:15:43.280 --> 0:15:45.040 stepped out on the street, the street was you know, 0:15:45.080 --> 0:15:47.200 the street was quiet. You know, stores were closed. So 0:15:47.920 --> 0:15:51.040 it seems an odd decision to do. Honestly, it was 0:15:51.040 --> 0:15:53.840 probably a lucky decision though, because if she'd been around 0:15:54.000 --> 0:15:56.280 in the house, she would have ended up suffering the 0:15:56.320 --> 0:15:56.680 same fight. 0:15:57.200 --> 0:15:59.520 Okay, so we're we're at a point where now you've 0:15:59.520 --> 0:16:02.920 got who was responding to this, Who are the investigators 0:16:02.960 --> 0:16:07.440 who come to Timothy Maher's place and see this just 0:16:07.520 --> 0:16:10.800 cornage and begin to interview Margaret Jewele and trying to 0:16:10.800 --> 0:16:13.080 figure out, you know, what has happened that night. 0:16:13.360 --> 0:16:15.240 I would say, I don't have the name, but it 0:16:15.320 --> 0:16:18.560 was they were interviewed by us the night watchman who 0:16:18.560 --> 0:16:21.640 showed up local constables, and then the local corner came 0:16:21.680 --> 0:16:24.760 and there was an inquest held one or two days 0:16:24.760 --> 0:16:27.520 after the murders at a pub right across the street 0:16:27.840 --> 0:16:31.560 from the mar household. You know, Margaret Jewel gives testimony 0:16:32.160 --> 0:16:36.640 in that inquest, and she's actually overcome with emotion recounting 0:16:36.840 --> 0:16:40.080 what she saw. She breaks down on the witness stand, 0:16:40.320 --> 0:16:43.480 you know, understandably, and she actually passes out. She's able 0:16:43.640 --> 0:16:46.720 to sort of just recount the offense of that evening 0:16:46.760 --> 0:16:49.240 and being sent out to get the oysters and pay 0:16:49.360 --> 0:16:53.800 the Baker bill. And then when she starts recounting about 0:16:53.800 --> 0:16:56.040 what she saw when she was led in to the 0:16:56.080 --> 0:16:58.520 Mar home and she saw the baby in the crib, 0:16:58.840 --> 0:17:02.120 she really loses it, rightfully, so she passes out, and 0:17:02.400 --> 0:17:04.320 they do revive her, but they don't they don't make 0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:09.639 her continue her testimony. The coroner's juryous brought across the 0:17:09.680 --> 0:17:12.960 street to sort of view the crime scene. They view 0:17:13.000 --> 0:17:15.720 the bodies, the nature of the wounds are discussed for 0:17:15.760 --> 0:17:19.040 the first time. You know. The initial press reports just 0:17:19.080 --> 0:17:22.119 say they were murdered brutally. Then during the corner's inquest, 0:17:22.160 --> 0:17:25.639 they go into just how badly these people were. I mean, 0:17:25.680 --> 0:17:28.480 they weren't just murdered, they were butchered, you know, throats 0:17:28.480 --> 0:17:30.720 cut down to the bone almost at the point of decapitation, 0:17:30.880 --> 0:17:36.480 facial bones smashed. It's really really horrendous. So the corner's 0:17:36.520 --> 0:17:40.480 jury you know, returns a verdict of sort of you know, 0:17:40.720 --> 0:17:44.520 murder against a person or person's unknown, and then the 0:17:44.560 --> 0:17:47.960 family are are laid to rest in the local parish church, 0:17:48.000 --> 0:17:51.119 Saint George's, I believe, and Timothy Maher is buried in 0:17:51.160 --> 0:17:55.800 his own coffin, and then Cecilia is buried with her baby. 0:17:56.760 --> 0:18:00.520 There's a huge turnout, huge turnout. People are you know, 0:18:00.680 --> 0:18:05.600 ractive highway to bid their final respects. And during the 0:18:05.640 --> 0:18:09.000 funeral service, the preacher who presides over the funeral service, 0:18:09.040 --> 0:18:11.880 you know, he says, made God, you know, enact vengeance 0:18:11.920 --> 0:18:15.440 against whoever did this awful deed. So this family's laid 0:18:15.440 --> 0:18:17.680 to rest, but without any answers as to who did 0:18:17.680 --> 0:18:19.640 this or even even why. 0:18:20.119 --> 0:18:23.040 So what is the speculation. We don't have very much 0:18:23.080 --> 0:18:26.040 time between what happens with Timothy Moore's family and then 0:18:26.080 --> 0:18:29.520 what happens next. What is the speculation so far? Do 0:18:29.600 --> 0:18:30.800 people have any idea? 0:18:31.040 --> 0:18:32.440 They don't this And this is one of the things 0:18:32.440 --> 0:18:36.360 when I was like reading the newspaper accounts from the day, 0:18:36.600 --> 0:18:38.480 was that was one of the things that was so 0:18:38.600 --> 0:18:42.000 puzzling about the case. This guy was, you know, it 0:18:42.119 --> 0:18:44.320 was an inoffensive individual. He ran and he ran a 0:18:44.359 --> 0:18:46.680 linen shop. He was a father, you know, young father, 0:18:46.720 --> 0:18:49.600 he was twenty four years old. No one wished him 0:18:49.640 --> 0:18:52.199 ill will, and so that's one of the things that 0:18:52.400 --> 0:18:55.840 was so pleasant. There's there's nothing to point to a motive. 0:18:55.920 --> 0:18:57.760 This was a guy who was folding linens for the 0:18:57.800 --> 0:19:00.480 next day's business. His wife's beating the baby, and someone 0:19:00.560 --> 0:19:03.719 barges in and butchers all of them. Because there was 0:19:04.560 --> 0:19:08.639 no clear motive for why this happened, there is it 0:19:08.680 --> 0:19:11.080 generates real fear in the area. If it can happen 0:19:11.080 --> 0:19:14.320 to these people, it could happen again, and well and behold, 0:19:14.440 --> 0:19:16.160 that's exactly what happens. 0:19:16.400 --> 0:19:18.040 I don't know if you know this. I have another 0:19:18.119 --> 0:19:21.480 show with a cold case investigator named Paul Holes. It's 0:19:21.520 --> 0:19:24.480 called Buried Bones. And if I were telling Paul this story, 0:19:25.000 --> 0:19:27.320 he would say probably, I would guess if I'm going 0:19:27.400 --> 0:19:31.080 to channel Poul Holes, he would say, it is fantastical 0:19:31.160 --> 0:19:34.719 to think that there is somebody lying in wait, waiting 0:19:34.760 --> 0:19:37.640 for the servant girl at midnight to leave, not knowing 0:19:37.640 --> 0:19:39.840 when she's going to come back, and this guy has 0:19:40.000 --> 0:19:43.200 just enough time to slaughter this whole family before Margaret 0:19:43.280 --> 0:19:45.679 Jewel comes back. The more I think about it, the 0:19:45.680 --> 0:19:47.879 more I think this is bus I don't understand. 0:19:48.320 --> 0:19:52.400 It's very strange. I don't understand it either. Honestly, would 0:19:52.400 --> 0:19:56.920 your co hosts think maybe Margaret Jewel will somehow and involve. 0:19:56.600 --> 0:20:00.320 Yes, I think he would. I think he would say 0:20:00.640 --> 0:20:04.040 that seems odd. I mean, I guess, okay, was anything taken? 0:20:04.600 --> 0:20:07.280 Is there robbery anywhere in this? Do you think nothing? 0:20:08.080 --> 0:20:10.000 Was in the newspaper council and I didn't see anything of 0:20:10.040 --> 0:20:13.720 anything taken. The only thing odd that they found out 0:20:13.760 --> 0:20:17.960 was the shipping mallet the mall. But then what would 0:20:17.960 --> 0:20:21.879 Margaret jules motive? Maybe her freaking out on the stand 0:20:21.920 --> 0:20:23.600 and passing out. Maybe that was an act she didn't 0:20:23.600 --> 0:20:25.040 want to have to answer too many questions. 0:20:28.400 --> 0:20:31.040 So people are completely freaked out, even though this is 0:20:31.080 --> 0:20:33.960 the most dangerous road in the world. Where do we 0:20:34.000 --> 0:20:34.680 go next? 0:20:34.960 --> 0:20:38.080 The more murder is on December seventh, and then twelve 0:20:38.160 --> 0:20:40.840 days later, on December nineteenth, just a two minute walk 0:20:41.200 --> 0:20:44.560 from the Mars shop, there's a place called the King's 0:20:44.640 --> 0:20:47.879 Arms Tavern. This is a place. It's owned by a 0:20:47.920 --> 0:20:52.440 gentleman named John Williamson and his wife Elizabeth, and their servant, 0:20:53.240 --> 0:20:56.720 a woman named Bridget. And they've owned the place. I 0:20:56.720 --> 0:20:58.880 think it was fifteen years. They've run the place. They're 0:20:58.960 --> 0:21:02.520 very well established in the area. They're very well h liked. 0:21:02.640 --> 0:21:05.879 The press actually call out that the King's Tavern was 0:21:05.920 --> 0:21:09.520 open to one and all foreigners of all kinds. There 0:21:09.560 --> 0:21:14.440 was no discrimination. You know. Williams is a really friendly guy. 0:21:14.560 --> 0:21:16.080 It's not as a place to go get a mail 0:21:16.080 --> 0:21:19.960 and a drink and everyone's welcome. But on the night 0:21:20.000 --> 0:21:25.119 of December and nineteenth, Williams and his wife and Serbra 0:21:25.160 --> 0:21:28.720 went Bridget. They are also horribly murdered in much the 0:21:28.720 --> 0:21:32.800 same fashion as the mar family. But what's different in 0:21:32.840 --> 0:21:35.679