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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: One of the things that struck me when I was

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Speaker 2: writing this book, Boks Scott people really put a lot

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Speaker 2: of grim effort into mergency people. You didn't just shoot someone,

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Speaker 2: you did really destroyed. The level of violence was really

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Speaker 2: off the charts.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the

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Speaker 1: podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career,

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Speaker 1: research for my many audio and book projects has taken

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Speaker 1: me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down

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Speaker 1: with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists,

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Speaker 1: filmmakers and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious

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Speaker 1: true crime cases. This is about the choices writers make,

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Speaker 1: both good and bad, and it's a deep dive into

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Speaker 1: the unpublished details behind their stories. Some of my most

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Speaker 1: favorite true crime stories in history come from the UK,

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Speaker 1: specifically London, so I was very excited to talk to

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Speaker 1: author Simon Read about his book Scotland Yard, a History

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Speaker 1: of the London Police Force's most infamous murder cases. Read

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Speaker 1: investigated some of Scotland Yard's most interesting cases, and now

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Speaker 1: he'll tell us about some of them. So I erroneously

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Speaker 1: assumed that you were American or Canadian based on your accent,

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Speaker 1: and I was terribly mistaken. Tell me about your background before, briefly,

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Speaker 1: before we start talking about how you got involved with

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Speaker 1: a book about Scotland Yard and its history.

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Speaker 2: Sure, I am British by birth, born in London, North London.

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Speaker 2: Actually Hendon moved out to the States when I was seven.

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Speaker 2: My parents' job brought us out here. I am celebrated citizen.

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Speaker 2: I am very much English at heart, although having lived

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Speaker 2: in the United States for whatever is forty plus years,

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Speaker 2: so I've always been an angler phile. I'm always looking

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Speaker 2: for excuses to write about England or London in particular.

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Speaker 2: Most of my books. If you go back and you

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Speaker 2: look at the books that I've written, I think, with

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Speaker 2: the exception of two of them, they all have a

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Speaker 2: British theme. So any excuse i'd have to get back there,

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Speaker 2: do research, sit in a pub, I'll.

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Speaker 1: Go for it good well. As an American who has

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Speaker 1: written about a very well known British story, John Reginald Christy,

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Speaker 1: I wanted to really figure out what your bona fides were,

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Speaker 1: and it sounds like you're all set. You've grown up

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Speaker 1: with these stories.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure, Yeah, I have, am I And by the way,

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Speaker 2: Reginald Christy one of the most disturbing cases. Yeah, I've

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Speaker 2: ever I've stood. I wrote about him in another book

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Speaker 2: of mine. But my paternal grandfather was a detective with

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Speaker 2: Scotland Yard.

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Speaker 1: Wow. Well, okay, what do you think he would have

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Speaker 1: thought of your book? You've gotten some really great reviews,

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Speaker 1: and I mean, I bet he would be thrilled. I'm

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Speaker 1: assuming you know, I think he would have. Well, let's

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Speaker 1: talk about this book. We much of the time talk

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Speaker 1: to people who are digging into one big story for

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Speaker 1: their book or for their piece of the film or

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Speaker 1: whatever they're doing. So for you, because we're talking about

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Speaker 1: the history of Scotland Yard, which is storied and traumatizing

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Speaker 1: and wonderful all at the same time. You know, you

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Speaker 1: cover a wide array of crimes and I wanted to

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Speaker 1: dig into two or three or more or less, like

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Speaker 1: we're just going to see how it goes that I

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Speaker 1: think are pretty pivotal. And I want you to start

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Speaker 1: with Ratcliffe Highway murders because it's one of to me,

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Speaker 1: the most interesting and so important because you know, I

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Speaker 1: know that these murders were really what led to the

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Speaker 1: organization of the Metropolitan Police, which was the first organization

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Speaker 1: in the world, the first police, real police organization, right right.

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Speaker 1: And what's great about that story is you get to

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Speaker 1: talk about and tell everybody who doesn't know out the

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Speaker 1: Bow Street Runners and how they interacted with the tams

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Speaker 1: River Police. And you know, I will tell you full disclosure.

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Speaker 1: I took myself down a couple of years ago when

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Speaker 1: I was in London teaching. I took myself down to

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Speaker 1: the River Police Museum and got a personalized tour from

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Speaker 1: Rob Jefferies, who is a I think he's I don't

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Speaker 1: know if he's a constable there, but he's retired and

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Speaker 1: he loves talking about that case and why it was important.

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Speaker 1: And so I'm going to geek out pretty big time,

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Speaker 1: I think on this story.

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Speaker 2: And I'm jealous because when I researched this book, I

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Speaker 2: was working during the pandemic, during lockdowns, so I had

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Speaker 2: to rely on sort of online you know, newspapers and

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Speaker 2: so to go and like chop the ground as it were.

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Speaker 2: I wish I could have done more that. But you

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Speaker 2: have the Ratcliffe Liveway murders an extremely important case, and

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Speaker 2: you're right it does lead to eventually leads to the

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Speaker 2: establishment of Scotland Yard in eighteen twenty nine. But the

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Speaker 2: Raclife Liway murders actually happened in eighteen eleven. There's an

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Speaker 2: eighteen year stretch between the murders and the formation of

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Speaker 2: Scotland Yard. But the murders happened in December of eighteen

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Speaker 2: eleven on the Ratcliffe Highway, which is the main east

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Speaker 2: thoroughfare out of London, and it's a very it's a

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Speaker 2: dangerous place, doesn't have a great reputation. It's known for debauchery, drunkenness,

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Speaker 2: vice and violence. It's popular with sailors. In fact, it's

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Speaker 2: called the Regent Street for sailors of it. Today you

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Speaker 2: have a lot of men who work the Thames who

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Speaker 2: live off the highway. They frequent the bars, the taverns,

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Speaker 2: the shops there. The highway is the home of a

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Speaker 2: gentleman named Timothy Maher. He's a he's a former sailor

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Speaker 2: with the Easterndia Company and he sets up a shop

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Speaker 2: at twenty nine Ratcliffe Highway. He's twenty four years old,

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Speaker 2: and he establishes a lnen business on the highway in

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Speaker 2: April of eighteen eleven. It's him, it's his wife, it's

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Speaker 2: their three month old son, Timothy Junior, and he wants

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Speaker 2: to know become a businessman and the life at sea

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Speaker 2: behind him. So he sets up shot there and all

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Speaker 2: is going well. Business is doing good, and he has

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Speaker 2: a servant girl named Margaret Jewel. And on the night

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Speaker 2: of December seventh, eighteen eleven, he sends Margaret out to

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Speaker 2: fetch some oysters and pay the baker's bill. And it's

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Speaker 2: around midnight when she leaves Timothy Marris's shop. Timothy's wife,

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Speaker 2: Celia is down in the basement kitchen feeding the baby.

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Speaker 2: Timothy is preparing for the next day's business. And Margaret

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Speaker 2: leaves the shop, and like I say, it's around midnight.

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Speaker 2: Pretty much everything is closed up. She goes to pay

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Speaker 2: the baker's bill, she finds the baker's close. She goes

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Speaker 2: to get some oysters, she finds the oyster shop is closed.

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Speaker 2: She returns to Timothy morris shop and she's not gone

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Speaker 2: very long. But when she gets back, it's very strange.

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Speaker 2: The place is shuttered up. The chaser drawn across the windows.

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Speaker 2: The door is locked, all the lights are out, and

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Speaker 2: she knocks on the door and she doesn't get a response,

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Speaker 2: and she knocks again, no response. Her knocks on the

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Speaker 2: door become more panicked, and she hears a noise behind

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Speaker 2: the door. She hears what she describes as a footfall

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Speaker 2: on the stairs inside the shop, and then she hears

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Speaker 2: the muffled cry of the baby very month full of

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Speaker 2: Timothy Junior, and this sort of puts her into a panic,

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Speaker 2: and she starts really like patting on the door, and

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Speaker 2: this gets the attention of a night watchman who happens

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Speaker 2: to be walking by. Night watchmen were sort of an

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Speaker 2: early form of law enforcement in London at the time.

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Speaker 2: They patrolled the streets between sunset and sunrise, armed with

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Speaker 2: a rattle and a whistle, and they were meant to

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Speaker 2: sort of raise the alarm if they encountered any commotion.

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Speaker 2: And he comes across Margaret. He asks what the problem is,

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Speaker 2: She explains the situation. He starts banging on the door.

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Speaker 2: This attracts the attention of a neighbor who hops from

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Speaker 2: his house into Timothy Morris's backyard and he goes inside

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Speaker 2: the shop. He finds a lick candle on the stairs.

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Speaker 2: He picks it up. He goes into the shop and

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Speaker 2: he walks into a horrific, horrific crime scene. Timothy's Waxelia.

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Speaker 2: They've been butchered, now not just murdered, but butcherd horrendously,

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Speaker 2: throat slashed down to the bone. Their heads have been

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Speaker 2: carved in. They have a young servant boyd His brains

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Speaker 2: are actually spattered up onto the ceiling. I mean he's

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Speaker 2: been beaten with such vorocity. The neighbor opens the door.

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Speaker 2: A crowd that's been now gathered outside the marshop. They

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Speaker 2: rush in and see this awful scene, and someone says,

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Speaker 2: where's the baby, And they find the baby in its

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Speaker 2: crib down in the basement kitchen. The baby's throat's been splashed,

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Speaker 2: no mercy shown. This causes a huge shock. It's interesting,

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Speaker 2: you know, London in this time we tend to think

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Speaker 2: of it as this place where murder happened all the time.

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Speaker 2: I don't have specific numbers, but throughout the nineteenth century London,

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Speaker 2: seventy five percent of the crimes were theft and robbery,

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Speaker 2: and murder only accounted for ten percent of the crime.

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Speaker 2: So when a murder did happen, It garnered a lot

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Speaker 2: of a lot of headlines and so this murder obviously

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Speaker 2: sent shock waves. The city London doesn't have a police

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Speaker 2: force at this time, like we discussed, they have this

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Speaker 2: missmash patchwork of parish constables and night watchmen and then

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Speaker 2: the Bow Street Runners who are work out of the

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Speaker 2: Ball Street Magistrate's Court. They report to the Chief Magistrate

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Speaker 2: Henry Building. They have the power to investigate crime, but

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Speaker 2: they're they're they're a small force. And there's also the

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Speaker 2: Thames River Police and try to keep all on order

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Speaker 2: on the Thames. But there's no sort of there's no

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Speaker 2: coordination between any of these these entities. They don't they

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Speaker 2: don't talk to each other, they don't share information, so

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Speaker 2: there's there would be nothing what you consider sort of

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Speaker 2: coordinated investigation, certainly by today's standards, don't find really any

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Speaker 2: clues that the Marti crime team. What they do find

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Speaker 2: is a it's called a mall and it's a hamm

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Speaker 2: are used in shipbuilding. It has like a Wesdend use

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Speaker 2: for plying, hammering and spikes and playing out when when

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Speaker 2: building ships, and that's found upstairs. But the crime team

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Speaker 2: doesn't really yield anything else, and the city's kind of

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Speaker 2: reeling from all of this, and so trying to figure

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Speaker 2: out what happened. And then twelve days later, on December nineteenth,

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Speaker 2: the same thing happens again.

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Speaker 1: Let me ask you like a series of questions here. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: one thing that I wanted to make clear and correct

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Speaker 1: me if I'm wrong here. My understanding is that when

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Speaker 1: we say Ratcliff Highway, which was supposedly known as the

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Speaker 1: most dangerous road in the world, it's not a highway

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Speaker 1: the way we think, certainly at least Americans think of

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Speaker 1: a highway. What would you consider it like a large

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Speaker 1: road or.

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Speaker 2: It's a large road. It's a large road. It's a road.

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Speaker 2: It's a road aligne with shops on either side. It's

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Speaker 2: got little alleyways going off the side of it, you know,

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Speaker 2: cram with tenement housing and sailors cottages. It was called

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Speaker 2: a highway back in the day because it was one

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Speaker 2: of the main thorough bears in an out of the

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Speaker 2: city on the east end. But it's not our highway

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Speaker 2: like we think of it today, with four lanes of traffic,

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Speaker 2: and so it's more think of it more like a

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Speaker 2: high street. A busy main road.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, so in that area when there is a crime,

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Speaker 1: a theft or whatever, how is the decision made between

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Speaker 1: to what You've got the boat street runners, the night

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Speaker 1: watchmen and the tims River Police. Did I miss anybody?

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Speaker 1: Is there any other law enforcement entity?

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Speaker 2: No, that's that's that's sort of yeah, that's a good question.

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Speaker 2: There wasn't really any sort of chain of command. This

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Speaker 2: is the problem. This is one of the problems with

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Speaker 2: London at that time. It doesn't have a centually organized

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Speaker 2: peace force. And by that we mean a force that

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Speaker 2: has the resources and command structure in place to ensure

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Speaker 2: uniformity and coordination across a large metropolitan area and across investigations.

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Speaker 2: So each sort of the constables, the nightwatchmen, bow street Runners,

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Speaker 2: the taserra police, they're all sort of doing their own thing.

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Speaker 2: And so this is one of the problems why nothing

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Speaker 2: sort of happens with this case in terms of white

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Speaker 2: cohesive investigation, because there's no cohesive law enforcement framework to

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Speaker 2: tackle a crime of this magnitude, and this crime it

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Speaker 2: generates a huge shockwave. It really generates a love look

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Speaker 2: shock that won't be seen until you know the jack

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Speaker 2: the Ripper killings in eighteen eighty eight. But the difference

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Speaker 2: is when Jack the Rippers doing his stuff in Whitechapel,

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Speaker 2: he's being hunted by a Metropolitan police force with more

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Speaker 2: than ten thousand officers. Yeah, now he's you know, the

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Speaker 2: Ratcliff Hyery murders being hunted by this ragtag, uncoordinated bunch

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Speaker 2: of unprofessional law enforcement officers.

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Speaker 1: Basically, I mean, I always got the impression that before

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Speaker 1: the Metropolitan Police were formed, these entities were always on defense.

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Speaker 1: They were never playing. There's no offense. Like it was like,

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Speaker 1: we're there if something bad happens, but we're not going

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Speaker 1: to like prevent you from you if we see something.

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Speaker 2: You know, that's absolutely correct, that's actually correct. They're always

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Speaker 2: responding to stuff. They're never sort of like out there

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Speaker 2: trying to suck stuff from happening. They you know, like

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Speaker 2: I said, you've got the night watchmen who are meant

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Speaker 2: to patrol the streets at night, and if they see something,

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Speaker 2: they make a noise with their rattle and they blow

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Speaker 2: their w That's how it's mental work. But if you

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Speaker 2: read the newspaper accounts of the day, you find out

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Speaker 2: most of them are sitting in their guardhouses getting drunk

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Speaker 2: on gin, you know, and aren't very effective. You have

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Speaker 2: the parish constables who serve a law enforcement officers for

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Speaker 2: the various districts and parishes throughout London. They have law

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Speaker 2: enforcement power and that they can sort of make arrests

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Speaker 2: and you know, if they see trouble they can haul

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Speaker 2: someone off to court. But you know it's either a

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Speaker 2: volunteer gig or a low paying wage. You know, these

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Speaker 2: aren't they're not very effective. And then you know the

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Speaker 2: Bow Street Runners. They are sort of the first for

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Speaker 2: runner to a proper police force, but they're very limited

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Speaker 2: in their scope. And other magistrate offices in London set

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Speaker 2: up something similar to what Bow Street is doing with

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Speaker 2: these constables, but again there's no coordination. And then you

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Speaker 2: have the River Police wore out on the water, so

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Speaker 2: they're kind of like a forward of the identity.

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Speaker 1: So let me summarize so far. So December eighteen eleven,

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Speaker 1: I have to assume it's just colder than hell in London.

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Speaker 1: In the most dangerous street in the world. You've got

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Speaker 1: the mar family, which is just an upstanding family with

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Speaker 1: their business. A young couple they are murdered brutally. I mean,

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Speaker 1: just horrifically murdered, as well as their baby and a

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Speaker 1: servant boy. How did we say the young boy was.

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Speaker 2: Twelve or fourteen? Can he's a young teen?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Not enough to defend himself, I'm assuming. Okay, now

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Speaker 1: we just jump in immediately into the mystery before we

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Speaker 1: get to the second set of murders here. I have

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Speaker 1: always wondered, and I don't remember if I asked Rob Jeffries,

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Speaker 1: my wonderful tour guide on the river, about this, But

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Speaker 1: did they really expect this was at midnight? Is that

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Speaker 1: when she went out?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, she goes out. She goes out shortly before midnight.

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Speaker 2: And if I remember on the newspaper accounts, she's only

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Speaker 2: gone for about fifteen or twenty minutes or so.

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Speaker 1: So is that normal that a bakery and an oyster

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Speaker 1: shop would be open at midnight in this area? I mean,

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Speaker 1: why would she do that? Why would he do that? Understand?

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Speaker 2: I thought the same thing. So I'd heard of the

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Speaker 2: Ragnifiery murders prior to writing this book, but this was

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Speaker 2: the first time i'd ever sort of like researched the crimes,

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Speaker 2: and I didn't know the specifics necessarily about them, and

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Speaker 2: when I read that, I thought that was very very odd,

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Speaker 2: you know, like the righttically by the way, like you said,

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Speaker 2: very dangerous reputation back one of the newspapers said it

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Speaker 2: was representative all of all that was dirty, disorderly and debased.

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Speaker 2: So it seems sending out a young servant girl after midnight,

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Speaker 2: at midnight to you know, track down oysters and pay

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Speaker 2: the baker, it's a weird it's a weird decision to make,

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Speaker 2: and that the fact that you know, a baker would

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Speaker 2: be open at midnight or an oyster shot would be

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Speaker 2: open at midnight, doesn't make much sense. One of the

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Speaker 2: newspaper counts I found where they Margaret Jewel is giving

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Speaker 2: tesscona during an inquest. She says, you know, when she

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Speaker 2: stepped out on the street, the street was you know,

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Speaker 2: the street was quiet. You know, stores were closed. So

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Speaker 2: it seems an odd decision to do. Honestly, it was

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Speaker 2: probably a lucky decision though, because if she'd been around

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Speaker 2: in the house, she would have ended up suffering the

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Speaker 2: same fight.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so we're we're at a point where now you've

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Speaker 1: got who was responding to this, Who are the investigators

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Speaker 1: who come to Timothy Maher's place and see this just

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Speaker 1: cornage and begin to interview Margaret Jewele and trying to

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Speaker 1: figure out, you know, what has happened that night.

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Speaker 2: I would say, I don't have the name, but it

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Speaker 2: was they were interviewed by us the night watchman who

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Speaker 2: showed up local constables, and then the local corner came

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Speaker 2: and there was an inquest held one or two days

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Speaker 2: after the murders at a pub right across the street

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Speaker 2: from the mar household. You know, Margaret Jewel gives testimony

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Speaker 2: in that inquest, and she's actually overcome with emotion recounting

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Speaker 2: what she saw. She breaks down on the witness stand,

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Speaker 2: you know, understandably, and she actually passes out. She's able

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Speaker 2: to sort of just recount the offense of that evening

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Speaker 2: and being sent out to get the oysters and pay

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Speaker 2: the Baker bill. And then when she starts recounting about

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Speaker 2: what she saw when she was led in to the

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Speaker 2: Mar home and she saw the baby in the crib,

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Speaker 2: she really loses it, rightfully, so she passes out, and

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Speaker 2: they do revive her, but they don't they don't make

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Speaker 2: her continue her testimony. The coroner's juryous brought across the

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Speaker 2: street to sort of view the crime scene. They view

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Speaker 2: the bodies, the nature of the wounds are discussed for

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Speaker 2: the first time. You know. The initial press reports just

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Speaker 2: say they were murdered brutally. Then during the corner's inquest,

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Speaker 2: they go into just how badly these people were. I mean,

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Speaker 2: they weren't just murdered, they were butchered, you know, throats

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Speaker 2: cut down to the bone almost at the point of decapitation,

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Speaker 2: facial bones smashed. It's really really horrendous. So the corner's

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Speaker 2: jury you know, returns a verdict of sort of you know,

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Speaker 2: murder against a person or person's unknown, and then the

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Speaker 2: family are are laid to rest in the local parish church,

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Speaker 2: Saint George's, I believe, and Timothy Maher is buried in

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Speaker 2: his own coffin, and then Cecilia is buried with her baby.

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Speaker 2: There's a huge turnout, huge turnout. People are you know,

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Speaker 2: ractive highway to bid their final respects. And during the

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Speaker 2: funeral service, the preacher who presides over the funeral service,

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Speaker 2: you know, he says, made God, you know, enact vengeance

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Speaker 2: against whoever did this awful deed. So this family's laid

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Speaker 2: to rest, but without any answers as to who did

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Speaker 2: this or even even why.

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Speaker 1: So what is the speculation. We don't have very much

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Speaker 1: time between what happens with Timothy Moore's family and then

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Speaker 1: what happens next. What is the speculation so far? Do

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Speaker 1: people have any idea?

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Speaker 2: They don't this And this is one of the things

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Speaker 2: when I was like reading the newspaper accounts from the day,

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Speaker 2: was that was one of the things that was so

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Speaker 2: puzzling about the case. This guy was, you know, it

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Speaker 2: was an inoffensive individual. He ran and he ran a

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Speaker 2: linen shop. He was a father, you know, young father,

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Speaker 2: he was twenty four years old. No one wished him

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Speaker 2: ill will, and so that's one of the things that

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Speaker 2: was so pleasant. There's there's nothing to point to a motive.

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Speaker 2: This was a guy who was folding linens for the

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Speaker 2: next day's business. His wife's beating the baby, and someone

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Speaker 2: barges in and butchers all of them. Because there was

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Speaker 2: no clear motive for why this happened, there is it

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Speaker 2: generates real fear in the area. If it can happen

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Speaker 2: to these people, it could happen again, and well and behold,

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Speaker 2: that's exactly what happens.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you know this. I have another

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Speaker 1: show with a cold case investigator named Paul Holes. It's

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Speaker 1: called Buried Bones. And if I were telling Paul this story,

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Speaker 1: he would say probably, I would guess if I'm going

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Speaker 1: to channel Poul Holes, he would say, it is fantastical

365
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Speaker 1: to think that there is somebody lying in wait, waiting

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Speaker 1: for the servant girl at midnight to leave, not knowing

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Speaker 1: when she's going to come back, and this guy has

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Speaker 1: just enough time to slaughter this whole family before Margaret

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Speaker 1: Jewel comes back. The more I think about it, the

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Speaker 1: more I think this is bus I don't understand.

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Speaker 2: It's very strange. I don't understand it either. Honestly, would

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Speaker 2: your co hosts think maybe Margaret Jewel will somehow and involve.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I think he would. I think he would say

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Speaker 1: that seems odd. I mean, I guess, okay, was anything taken?

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Speaker 1: Is there robbery anywhere in this? Do you think nothing?

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Speaker 2: Was in the newspaper council and I didn't see anything of

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Speaker 2: anything taken. The only thing odd that they found out

378
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Speaker 2: was the shipping mallet the mall. But then what would

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Speaker 2: Margaret jules motive? Maybe her freaking out on the stand

380
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Speaker 2: and passing out. Maybe that was an act she didn't

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Speaker 2: want to have to answer too many questions.

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Speaker 1: So people are completely freaked out, even though this is

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Speaker 1: the most dangerous road in the world. Where do we

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Speaker 1: go next?

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Speaker 2: The more murder is on December seventh, and then twelve

386
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Speaker 2: days later, on December nineteenth, just a two minute walk

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Speaker 2: from the Mars shop, there's a place called the King's

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Speaker 2: Arms Tavern. This is a place. It's owned by a

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Speaker 2: gentleman named John Williamson and his wife Elizabeth, and their servant,

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Speaker 2: a woman named Bridget. And they've owned the place. I

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Speaker 2: think it was fifteen years. They've run the place. They're

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Speaker 2: very well established in the area. They're very well h liked.

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Speaker 2: The press actually call out that the King's Tavern was

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Speaker 2: open to one and all foreigners of all kinds. There

395
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Speaker 2: was no discrimination. You know. Williams is a really friendly guy.

396
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Speaker 2: It's not as a place to go get a mail

397
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Speaker 2: and a drink and everyone's welcome. But on the night

398
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Speaker 2: of December and nineteenth, Williams and his wife and Serbra

399
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Speaker 2: went Bridget. They are also horribly murdered in much the

400
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Speaker 2: same fashion as the mar family. But what's different in

401
00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:35,679
Speaker 2: this case is there is a witness of sorts. So

402
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Speaker 2: the King's Tavern, it's u pub. It has rooms upstairs

403
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Speaker 2: that you can let. And there's a gentleman upstairs who's

404
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Speaker 2: been living living at the pub for quite a while.

405
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Speaker 2: He's and he's upstairs. He's he's getting ready for bed.

406
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Speaker 2: He came home from a night out on the town.

407
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Speaker 2: He sees John Willimson and his wife. He talks him

408
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Speaker 2: for a bit. They seem perfectly normal. He bets them

409
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Speaker 2: good night, and he goes upstairs and he's getting ready

410
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Speaker 2: for bed, and he's he's naked, and he suddenly hears

411
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Speaker 2: a commotion downstairs. He hears someone like barging into the place,

412
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Speaker 2: and he hears John Williamson cry out, we are murdered.

413
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Speaker 2: And there's a sound, there's there's screaming, there's sounds of

414
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Speaker 2: all this violence happening. He hears a number of really

415
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Speaker 2: heavy thumps, like something being bashed in and he's petrified,

416
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Speaker 2: and he's he's up there in his room, like he said,

417
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Speaker 2: he's naked. He doesn't, you know, because he's got ready

418
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Speaker 2: for bed. He opens his bedroom door and he sneaks

419
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Speaker 2: down the stairs and he gets to the bottom up

420
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Speaker 2: the stairs, and there's a door at the bottom up

421
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Speaker 2: the stairs, and the door is slightly ajar, and he

422
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Speaker 2: peers through it and he looks into the room and

423
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Speaker 2: the rooms lit by the fireplace, and he can see

424
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Speaker 2: a body lying on the ground, and he sees a

425
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Speaker 2: man kneeling over the body. And the man's back is

426
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Speaker 2: to him, so he doesn't see the face. But the

427
00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:59,680
Speaker 2: man appears to be wearing like a long leather trench coat,

428
00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:02,040
Speaker 2: and it seems to be going through the pockets of

429
00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:05,480
Speaker 2: the body. And he hears this man take change or

430
00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:07,919
Speaker 2: coins out of the body's pockets, sort of jangle him

431
00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:11,080
Speaker 2: in his hands and stick him in his pocket. He

432
00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:16,600
Speaker 2: is he's petrified, and he sneaks back upstairs as quietly

433
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:19,960
Speaker 2: as he can, and he puts on a night shirt

434
00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:22,879
Speaker 2: and some pants, and he has to get out of here.

435
00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:25,240
Speaker 2: You know, he's terrified he's going to be slaughtered next

436
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:26,920
Speaker 2: and so he takes a couple of sheets from his bed,

437
00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:29,160
Speaker 2: he ties them around his bed head, and he lures

438
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:32,919
Speaker 2: them out the window of his room and he starts

439
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,560
Speaker 2: crawling out. And as he's crawling out the window, a

440
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:37,920
Speaker 2: night washman happens to come by and see a guy

441
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,359
Speaker 2: crawling out the pulp window, you know, in his night shirt.

442
00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:46,240
Speaker 2: This raises the alarm, and the nightwashman sounds his rattle,

443
00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:49,920
Speaker 2: blows his whistle, and folks in the surrounding houses come

444
00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:52,600
Speaker 2: out and they break into the pub. They break down

445
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:55,239
Speaker 2: the front door, and they smash a basement window. Call

446
00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:58,520
Speaker 2: and they enter in and they find again a horrible

447
00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:02,719
Speaker 2: seeing John Williamson. He's you know, his throat's been slipped

448
00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:05,280
Speaker 2: down to the bone. He's been beaten balley. He actually

449
00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:07,199
Speaker 2: has a broken leg. Looks like he took a tumble

450
00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:10,840
Speaker 2: down a flight of stairs into the basement level while

451
00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:14,000
Speaker 2: he was trying to defend himself. His wife, Elizabeth, she's

452
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:17,240
Speaker 2: been stabs, throw slat, you know, head caved in. The

453
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:21,639
Speaker 2: servant woman Bridget They said she had a huge, a

454
00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:24,159
Speaker 2: huge hole in the side of her neck where you know,

455
00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:29,000
Speaker 2: she'd been mutilated. And this time there's there's a clue

456
00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:31,320
Speaker 2: such as it was. It probably be a gold line

457
00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:34,080
Speaker 2: of the clue today back then, but there was a

458
00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 2: like a bloody handprint on a window sill that led

459
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:40,560
Speaker 2: out the back of let out the back of the pub.

460
00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:43,240
Speaker 2: The way it's described in the newspapers up the day

461
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:45,080
Speaker 2: is the back of the pub fased out on. I

462
00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:47,439
Speaker 2: guess you could call it wasteland. It was wet clay,

463
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:51,760
Speaker 2: and the killer climbed up this mountain of wet clay

464
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:54,520
Speaker 2: and then ran away once he got to the top

465
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:56,760
Speaker 2: of the hill. So the speculation is that this guy

466
00:24:56,840 --> 00:25:00,480
Speaker 2: would have probably been covered in clay when he when

467
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:03,080
Speaker 2: he got to the top. But you know, except that

468
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:05,120
Speaker 2: he left a handprint, well he handprint on the windowsill,

469
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:07,440
Speaker 2: which today would have been a gold mine. Back then,

470
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:11,560
Speaker 2: it didn't mean anything. And so you've got you know,

471
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:13,880
Speaker 2: was it twelve days since the war murder and now

472
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:17,600
Speaker 2: it's it's happened again. And one of the London newspapers,

473
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:20,359
Speaker 2: which I caught in the book, they're almost like apologetic

474
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:23,719
Speaker 2: that they have to report. Thence the following day they

475
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:26,040
Speaker 2: actually start off with like, you know, we're sorry we

476
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:28,879
Speaker 2: have to tell you this, but it's happened again. You

477
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:32,560
Speaker 2: have you know, the Nightwatchman, the Constables. This sort of

478
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:36,760
Speaker 2: mismashed investigation with no sort of like coordinated effort happening.

479
00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:40,760
Speaker 2: It kind of goes nowhere until a couple of people

480
00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:43,879
Speaker 2: stepped forward and you know, with some information that I

481
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:45,760
Speaker 2: think is pivotal to the case.

482
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:49,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I think this is this set of

483
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:52,639
Speaker 1: murders too, is just so terrifying to think. Again, you know,

484
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 1: a well liked business owner, you know, at home late

485
00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:00,199
Speaker 1: at night into some birds cold outside the story of

486
00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:02,960
Speaker 1: the lodger. It's John Turner. I had remembered is the

487
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 1: guy's name?

488
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:05,560
Speaker 2: Thank you? Yes, thank you, yes.

489
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:08,280
Speaker 1: John Turner. And when he says that he sees a

490
00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:11,320
Speaker 1: tall man in a long coat standing over Missus Williamson's

491
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:13,680
Speaker 1: body right at the bottom of the stairs and jingling

492
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,440
Speaker 1: money and stuff like that. Yet again you've got another

493
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:20,159
Speaker 1: character who's there who kind of a little bit like

494
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:22,040
Speaker 1: Margaret Jewel. It's sort of like to me in a

495
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:24,080
Speaker 1: little bit of a mysterious character. I mean, there's all

496
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:27,000
Speaker 1: sorts of weird things happening. You always look at people

497
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:29,159
Speaker 1: who are the survivors and think, how did that happen?

498
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:31,199
Speaker 1: You know, when you have all of these victims. So

499
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:34,359
Speaker 1: I find that interesting. And also, you know, I had thought, well,

500
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 1: there's you know, if maybe he's mistaken or I don't know,

501
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 1: we don't know if he's been drinking, and we you know,

502
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:40,520
Speaker 1: we don't know if he's the one who did it.

503
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:43,679
Speaker 1: There's just so many weird inconsistencies, I think, but this

504
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:44,760
Speaker 1: had to have been terrifying.

505
00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:47,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is word and when I was researching this,

506
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:50,359
Speaker 2: I thought, God, this guy had a lucky break, you

507
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:51,879
Speaker 2: know the fancas he said with a tipsoe back up

508
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 2: the stairs without sort of sounding the a arm. And

509
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,920
Speaker 2: then you're thinking, you know, these old pubger maybing around upstairs,

510
00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:01,040
Speaker 2: you know, aren't floor boards creaking and a massort? One

511
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:02,840
Speaker 2: thing I didn't include it in the book, but one

512
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:05,040
Speaker 2: thing also, The other person who was in the house

513
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:09,120
Speaker 2: and slept the whole thing was John Wallinson's young granddaughter. Yeah,

514
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 2: she sleeps through the whole thing. She scares. But John

515
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:15,159
Speaker 2: Turner us seem a bit of crief for, like, you know,

516
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:19,440
Speaker 2: fleeing the place when there was a child sleeping sleeping upstairs.

517
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 2: On the flip side of that, you can't blame something

518
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:23,720
Speaker 2: for trying to scarey out a window to escape. But

519
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:27,400
Speaker 2: it is strange both the murders, you have the survivors. Hey,

520
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,119
Speaker 2: who knows, maybe Margaret Jewel and John Turner were working

521
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:30,720
Speaker 2: in cahoots.

522
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:34,200
Speaker 1: I think that's just as probable as what it sounds like.

523
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:36,840
Speaker 1: We're going to learn about the main suspect here. Pretty

524
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:39,600
Speaker 1: soon it gets a little confusing when we start talking

525
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:42,360
Speaker 1: about the main suspect, because we have the victim, John Williamson,

526
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:44,919
Speaker 1: and then we've got a suspect that has a very

527
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:48,439
Speaker 1: similar last name. Well, before we get into that, is

528
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:51,960
Speaker 1: there anyone who could say definitively that anything was taken

529
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:56,480
Speaker 1: from the Williamson household, considering everybody is dead or too

530
00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,680
Speaker 1: young to know, or you know, is a lodger who

531
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:01,400
Speaker 1: has bigger concerns.

532
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, based on the newspaper accounts of the day that

533
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:05,920
Speaker 2: I read, no one definitely said anything was taken from

534
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:09,200
Speaker 2: the pub, except for John Turner, who witnessed the pillar

535
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:11,960
Speaker 2: bending over the body of one of the victims and

536
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:15,119
Speaker 2: taking you know, coins from the pocket and jangling in

537
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:17,879
Speaker 2: his hands. And so from that point of view, the

538
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 2: murder is again it's a motiveless crime. You had another family,

539
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:25,640
Speaker 2: a business owner, well respected in the area, well liked,

540
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:29,560
Speaker 2: but sure for no apparent reason, which really adds to

541
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 2: the sort of terrifying nature of the crimes. You know.

542
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:34,840
Speaker 2: The barbarity obviously is one aspect that makes it solf frightening,

543
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:36,359
Speaker 2: but the fact that these people should be killed for

544
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:39,800
Speaker 2: all apparent reason sort of makes it even more disturbing.

545
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 1: No, I know, you said that they have a handprint,

546
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 1: and I was trying to remember or even sort of

547
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:48,560
Speaker 1: process whether or not that was going to be helpful,

548
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:52,800
Speaker 1: because I don't know if in eighteen eleven they realized

549
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:56,760
Speaker 1: there was a distinctiveness, like an actual you can identify somebody.

550
00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 1: We all have distinct handprint, fingerprint. I don't think that

551
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 1: came into a little bit later they did it.

552
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 2: Scullnyard does actually start using fingerprints until nineteen oh one.

553
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:07,680
Speaker 2: But I'm just gonna jump ahead very quickly here. There

554
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 2: was actually a pretty infamous murder in eighteen forty where

555
00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:12,720
Speaker 2: a guy named Lord William Russell's murdered in his bed.

556
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:15,479
Speaker 2: The butler ends up doing it. The press reports at

557
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:17,720
Speaker 2: the time report that there's a bloody pomp print found

558
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 2: on Lord William Russell's pillow. At the time of this murder.

559
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:24,480
Speaker 2: There is a country doctor up in Norfolk named Richard

560
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:28,800
Speaker 2: Overton who has just out of his own interest, studied

561
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 2: the weird marks that human skin leaves on surfaces, and

562
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:36,080
Speaker 2: he reads about this eighteen forty murder. You know, shortly

563
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:37,840
Speaker 2: after it happens, and he sends a letter to Scotland

564
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 2: Yard and he says, you know, he's not very well known,

565
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:44,200
Speaker 2: but human skin has ridges which is particular that each

566
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:47,480
Speaker 2: individual and can be left on the surface. And so

567
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 2: if you arrest the suspect and you take their pondpernt,

568
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:51,600
Speaker 2: he might be able to compare it with the pomp

569
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 2: print found on the pillow. And as a demonstration he

570
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:56,440
Speaker 2: includes his own fingerprints on the layer and he sends

571
00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:58,960
Speaker 2: off to Scotland Yard. It gets stuck in the slush

572
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:01,920
Speaker 2: file and is saying for fifty years. It's not found

573
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 2: until eighteen ninety and that is one of the great

574
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,640
Speaker 2: what if What if scott Yard had opened that letter

575
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:11,240
Speaker 2: when it arrived in eighteen forty well sort of followed

576
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:13,920
Speaker 2: up in this Victorian crime fighting might have been completely

577
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 2: completely different. So in eighteen eleven go back to the

578
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:20,240
Speaker 2: Poor Williamson's and yeah, they're pump They can't do anything

579
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 2: with it. All they meant was that they knew the

580
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 2: killer to escape through the back window.

581
00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:27,440
Speaker 1: So they have no suspects. We don't think anything really

582
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:29,960
Speaker 1: that we can actually confirm has been taken from either

583
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:33,640
Speaker 1: of these households. They're brutal murders, including a baby in

584
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:36,960
Speaker 1: the first household. Young people that just seemed to be,

585
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:41,480
Speaker 1: you know, left with wreckage. You've got survivors, neither of

586
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:43,720
Speaker 1: whom I'm sure I believe, I don't know. We'll see.

587
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:46,920
Speaker 1: So where do we go next when we are not

588
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 1: living in an era of CCTV credit cards. What do

589
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 1: they end up doing next?

590
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 2: Well, well, what happens as the investigation, if you can

591
00:30:56,080 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 2: call it that. And three days after the Williams some murder,

592
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:04,240
Speaker 2: some people come forward and they name a guy named

593
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:06,920
Speaker 2: John Williams. So back trigger Loving, there's no man named

594
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:09,720
Speaker 2: John Williams. He's living at a pub called the Pear Tree,

595
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:13,640
Speaker 2: and he has he has two roommates he's been bunking with.

596
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:19,120
Speaker 2: John Williams is a sailor. He actually knew Timothy Maher.

597
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 2: The two had celts together at some point in their career.

598
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:27,720
Speaker 2: And he sort of piques the suspicions of his two

599
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 2: roommates because in the wake of these murders, he suddenly

600
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 2: seems to have come into a little bit of money.

601
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:35,720
Speaker 2: You know, he usually doesn't have a lot, but now

602
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:38,200
Speaker 2: he's got a little bit to spend. And he's also

603
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 2: changed his appearance. He has shaved his beard. The women

604
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 2: who are doing his laundry at the pub, they report

605
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 2: having found what they believed to have been blood on

606
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 2: one of his shirts in the wake of the murders.

607
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 2: And he was also known to have possessed a knife

608
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:58,440
Speaker 2: that had a quoe unquote peculiar blade that theory I

609
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 2: think could have inflicted the women's fans at the crime scene.

610
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:05,240
Speaker 2: But what really sort of peaks the curiosity of the

611
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 2: constables I want to work in the case is that

612
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 2: the Pear Tree, the pub where John Williams is staying,

613
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 2: had a mall one of these shipbuilding hammers that went missing,

614
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:21,719
Speaker 2: and the mall found at the Timothy Mahra residence is

615
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:28,040
Speaker 2: identified supposedly as the mall that went missing from the

616
00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:31,720
Speaker 2: Pear Tree. Based on this eference, which is circumstantial. John

617
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 2: Williams is arrested and he is put through what one

618
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 2: newspaper calls a very thorough interrogation, and we can only.

619
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 1: In America we'd call the third degree. Probably yes, exactly.

620
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 2: He's put through this really brutal interrogation where we can

621
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:49,680
Speaker 2: only assume is brutal. He's taken back to his cell

622
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:54,719
Speaker 2: and he hangs himself with a handkerchief on a pipe

623
00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 2: that is used to hang clothing, and his body's found

624
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:02,280
Speaker 2: not long after he he hangs himself, So no one

625
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 2: really knows if John Williams did it or not. In

626
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:07,360
Speaker 2: the eyes of the public, he certainly did.

627
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:10,640
Speaker 1: So let's talk about the evidence before we talk about

628
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 1: his death. I mean, again, this is one of the

629
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:16,800
Speaker 1: most befuddling cases. I've always thought about why the Ratcliff

630
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 1: Highway murders were not as infamous as Jack the Ripper,

631
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 1: And I think it's the taunting part of it. The

632
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 1: murders that at least are a provable connected to this

633
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 1: have stopped after John Williams is dead. But if we

634
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:30,640
Speaker 1: go back and look at the evidence, so the evidence

635
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 1: really was that he knew. I know that Tom de Quincy,

636
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:37,479
Speaker 1: who was a very famous essayist, wrote and did kind

637
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:39,840
Speaker 1: of an investigation also and wrote an essay right and

638
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 1: he said there was this definitive connection between Timothy Marr

639
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 1: and John Williams. What was the connection between John Williams

640
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 1: and John Williamson the victim? I feel like I read

641
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:52,720
Speaker 1: that maybe he had stayed there at some point, but

642
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:54,960
Speaker 1: I don't remember that could have been in a PD

643
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:56,000
Speaker 1: James book, the P. D.

644
00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:58,600
Speaker 2: James book. I mean colors like everything that does with

645
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 2: Williams and mar that there was a definitive connection and

646
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:05,239
Speaker 2: that they and that they sell together. I don't know

647
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:08,640
Speaker 2: how close they were, if they were friends or or

648
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 2: what not, but I mean that was definitely a damning

649
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:14,759
Speaker 2: piece of evidence against him. The other stuff, Yeah, the

650
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:16,759
Speaker 2: shaving of the beard.

651
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:18,680
Speaker 1: I just don't think there's no evidence.

652
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:19,800
Speaker 2: There's no evidence.

653
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:22,320
Speaker 1: And people steal tools all the time.

654
00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:24,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly, And the blood found on his clothes,

655
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:28,319
Speaker 2: it's not even sure it was blood. These two laundrywomen, Yeah,

656
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:29,920
Speaker 2: two ways he did the laundry. He saw it and

657
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:31,760
Speaker 2: just assumed it was blood.

658
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:34,200
Speaker 1: Yeah. My thought had been, of course, there's no way

659
00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:38,280
Speaker 1: that to definitively match the mall from the crime scene

660
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:41,960
Speaker 1: unless there's fingerprints or something, and even then they wouldn't

661
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 1: have been able to use that. And people stole stuff

662
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 1: all the time. Weren't a terrible area of London. I

663
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:49,719
Speaker 1: just don't none of this is compelling in any way

664
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:52,120
Speaker 1: at all, especially his suicide.

665
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, ef theft was an incredibly common crime. I think

666
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:57,520
Speaker 2: I said the beginning of very I think seventy five

667
00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 2: percent of all crimes. Yeah, in London at the time

668
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:03,960
Speaker 2: our left and Roberty. So the evidence is purely circumstantial.

669
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:06,239
Speaker 2: I think this is one of those things where authorities

670
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:08,400
Speaker 2: just want this case to go away, so let's put

671
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:10,120
Speaker 2: on this guy and be done with it.

672
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:12,920
Speaker 1: Is there an insinuation that someone murdered him, that this

673
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:15,360
Speaker 1: was not, you know, an act of suicide.

674
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 2: I didn't se any insinuation in the you know, in

675
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 2: the newspaper coverage of the day. The newspapers were either

676
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:23,400
Speaker 2: like happy this guy was gone or angry that he

677
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:26,760
Speaker 2: didn't get justice in court. But I certainly wondered that

678
00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:30,000
Speaker 2: when I was when I was researching it. Now it

679
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:34,360
Speaker 2: seems pretty convenient. So who who knows? You know, nothing's

680
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:37,239
Speaker 2: beyond the remay. Hey, look, we've identified Margaret Joel as

681
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 2: a possible suspect now, so nothing's beyond the realm up

682
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 2: right possibility.

683
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you know, you have two able bodied

684
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:48,040
Speaker 1: people who are survivors, you know, John Turner on one

685
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:50,279
Speaker 1: household and Margaret Jewel and another. And I'm not saying

686
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:52,279
Speaker 1: they did it, but I'm just saying that there could

687
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:55,680
Speaker 1: be a coordinated effort I have never thought that John

688
00:35:55,719 --> 00:36:00,440
Speaker 1: Williams was a decent suspect at all. But you know,

689
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:02,879
Speaker 1: I'm missing some information. I would like you to talk

690
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:07,799
Speaker 1: about the next level amount of just discussed and what

691
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:11,400
Speaker 1: they did with John Williams after it was discovered that

692
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:14,120
Speaker 1: he had died and they were not able to take

693
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:16,440
Speaker 1: him to trial. What happens next.

694
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 2: They yeah, they he's not let off the hook, even

695
00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 2: in death. They take his body down, they strip him,

696
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:25,680
Speaker 2: they stick him on a cart. They wheel him on

697
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:28,399
Speaker 2: a cart through the East End of London. Crowds are

698
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:32,120
Speaker 2: turning out to sort of jeer him, and you know,

699
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:34,239
Speaker 2: they're throwing fruit and rocks at the guy, and it's

700
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:37,000
Speaker 2: you know, at this corpse. And they take him to

701
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 2: an intersection, a main intersection in the East end of London.

702
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:43,920
Speaker 2: They actually they drive a stake through him and then

703
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:46,600
Speaker 2: they bury him in a hole in the road and

704
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:49,759
Speaker 2: they cover him up there and that's where they leave him.

705
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:52,479
Speaker 2: And then you're right, the case sort of after all,

706
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:56,399
Speaker 2: it's sort of disappears. I'm surprised it's not as well

707
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 2: known as the Ripper case. But like he said, there's

708
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:00,799
Speaker 2: an other sort of reper case is kind of the

709
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:03,400
Speaker 2: first modern day serial killer case where you have the

710
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:06,279
Speaker 2: killer taunting the press. Yeah, and kind of setting the

711
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:08,960
Speaker 2: temb left for that, and the ractifying murders didn't sort

712
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:12,440
Speaker 2: of have that element to it, so it's kind of

713
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:13,080
Speaker 2: been forgotten.

714
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:17,120
Speaker 1: Well, you know a couple of points. One was when

715
00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:20,239
Speaker 1: I know when John Williams was buried, he's buried at

716
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:23,120
Speaker 1: this intersection. They did it because, you know, they wanted

717
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:24,759
Speaker 1: to bury him at a crossroad so that when his

718
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:27,439
Speaker 1: spirit rose, it wouldn't know where to go, it would

719
00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:30,879
Speaker 1: be perpetually confused, it wouldn't and I think they buried

720
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 1: him face down too. It's pretty awful. Rob Jeffrey said,

721
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:35,799
Speaker 1: you should really go visit this place. The pub's out

722
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:37,680
Speaker 1: there anymore. And I thought, Okay, well, I don't know

723
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:40,800
Speaker 1: if I want to go to this intersection. That's really creepy.

724
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:43,520
Speaker 1: But you know, that idea of sort of convicting somebody,

725
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:46,880
Speaker 1: not letting it go until it was done. I'm sure

726
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:50,280
Speaker 1: people in the mid eighteen hundreds to later eighteen hundreds

727
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:53,240
Speaker 1: before Jack the Ripper knew a lot about Ratcliffe Highway.

728
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 1: And then you've got the Jack the Ripper with its

729
00:37:56,560 --> 00:37:59,480
Speaker 1: criminal profiling kind of the first well known case of

730
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:03,919
Speaker 1: criminal profiling, which surprises me because you know, I think

731
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:06,920
Speaker 1: that the Ratcliffe Highway murders is ripe for criminal profiling.

732
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:09,239
Speaker 1: I think you could really have somebody now look at

733
00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 1: that case and go, God, this doesn't make any sense,

734
00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:12,960
Speaker 1: this guy doesn't fit in at all, or oh yeah,

735
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:15,680
Speaker 1: this is exactly what you would see. I just don't

736
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:17,600
Speaker 1: think you have enough information to know. But it's an

737
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:18,480
Speaker 1: enduring mystery.

738
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:21,439
Speaker 2: It is fascinating. You're right, it would absolutely be great

739
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:24,520
Speaker 2: for a criminal profiler. And yes, Scott, you know that

740
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 2: Jack the Ripper case is the first attempt made at

741
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:29,480
Speaker 2: criminal profiling. And I'm kind of bouncing around here, But

742
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:32,560
Speaker 2: when I was thinking about writing this book, I know

743
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:34,440
Speaker 2: it's going to have to write about the Jack the

744
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:37,080
Speaker 2: Ripper case, obviously, because you can't write about Scotlan year

745
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:38,440
Speaker 2: and uncluded the Ripper. But I was trying to think

746
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:41,080
Speaker 2: of a different approach to the Ripper case, and that

747
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:44,160
Speaker 2: was one of the things when I was researching. I

748
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:46,520
Speaker 2: discovered that the Jack theap case, it's the first attempt

749
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:49,719
Speaker 2: made a criminal profiling. It's also a first attempt made

750
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:53,120
Speaker 2: at using sniffer dogs returned the scot returned Stellton Yard

751
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:55,680
Speaker 2: a merciless amount of ridicule in the press, but that

752
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:57,480
Speaker 2: sort of ties back into kind of the point of

753
00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:00,399
Speaker 2: the book and sort of showing how Scotton Yard really

754
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:03,200
Speaker 2: sort of laid the foundation for a lot of modern

755
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:05,600
Speaker 2: day investigative work and the things we see today and

756
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:08,399
Speaker 2: sort of true crime documentaries and you know we read

757
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:09,520
Speaker 2: about detective thrillers.

758
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:13,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, I mean developing some really innovative techniques and

759
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:16,319
Speaker 1: you know, I just think the history of Scotland Yard

760
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:20,520
Speaker 1: is so fascinating. In the old building, finding Torso's you know.

761
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:23,000
Speaker 2: That's it's one of when I actually wrote the book

762
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:26,600
Speaker 2: proposal for h for Scotland Yard. Yeah, when they were

763
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:29,920
Speaker 2: building what became known as New Scotland Yard, their new headquarters,

764
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:33,799
Speaker 2: they found a victim up the Thames Torso murder in

765
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:37,080
Speaker 2: the in the basement who was actually killing at the

766
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:38,640
Speaker 2: same time as Jack the Riper. A lot of people

767
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:40,840
Speaker 2: don't realize the Yard was like pursuing two serial killers

768
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:43,160
Speaker 2: at the same time, the Ripper in the tenth Social Order.

769
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:46,360
Speaker 2: But because they found a victiamall the Tennis Sourzew murder

770
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 2: in the basement of Scotlan Yard's headquarters, the first. One

771
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:50,480
Speaker 2: of my book proposal was Scotland Yard is built on

772
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 2: an nonsoul mystery because they never actually solved the Torso murders.

773
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:58,040
Speaker 1: I don't know if I've mentioned this on the show

774
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:00,320
Speaker 1: before or not. I had heard of the Ratcliff Highway

775
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:02,600
Speaker 1: murders for years because I had read through you know, P. D.

776
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:05,880
Speaker 1: James book. My mom's a huge PD James fan, and

777
00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:08,279
Speaker 1: so I knew about the book. But one of my

778
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:11,279
Speaker 1: favorite TV series is Whitechapel. Did you ever watch Whitechapel?

779
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:13,800
Speaker 2: No? I never. I never did, and I should.

780
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:15,839
Speaker 1: You got to watch it. I think it's on Prime now.

781
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:20,160
Speaker 1: So the reason that I am fascinated by that show

782
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:24,840
Speaker 1: is they do an excellent episode that mimics the Ratcliffe

783
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:29,080
Speaker 1: Highway murders, where you have a tailor's shop where everybody's

784
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:32,280
Speaker 1: murdered when the seamstress goes out to go get bagels

785
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:35,680
Speaker 1: late at night and comes back and you know she's suspected,

786
00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:38,000
Speaker 1: and then there's like a series of other murders that

787
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:41,920
Speaker 1: are very very similar, and they use a historian, a

788
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:44,359
Speaker 1: crime history like me, a crime historian who knows all

789
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:47,040
Speaker 1: about these stories and can say this is what you

790
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:50,520
Speaker 1: can learn from the Ratcliff Highway murders to solve this

791
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:52,719
Speaker 1: case now. And so that might seem like a really

792
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:56,960
Speaker 1: silly premise, but it's an excellent way to talk about

793
00:40:56,960 --> 00:40:58,680
Speaker 1: what you and I both talk about, which is that

794
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:02,400
Speaker 1: we can learn so much about current crime, current criminals,

795
00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:05,520
Speaker 1: why people kill, how to stop them by looking into

796
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:08,160
Speaker 1: the past, you know. And I think that it's taken

797
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:10,200
Speaker 1: a while for some of my listeners to kind of go, oh,

798
00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:12,480
Speaker 1: I get it. I see, these are real people from

799
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:15,920
Speaker 1: the eighteen hundreds, and they are no different. They're no

800
00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:18,279
Speaker 1: different than us. I mean, you know, they had different money,

801
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:22,200
Speaker 1: different jobs, different language, but the human emotions all the same.

802
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:25,880
Speaker 1: Everything's the same, you know, everything's.

803
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:26,920
Speaker 2: You know, human beings do not change. Anything that changes

804
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:29,319
Speaker 2: is that sort of the technology and the methods to

805
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:31,759
Speaker 2: catch them. And that's one of the things with this

806
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:33,759
Speaker 2: book is that, you know, it doesn't appeal just to

807
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:36,200
Speaker 2: people who are fascinated by true crime, but it appeals

808
00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:38,920
Speaker 2: to sort of people who enjoy a detective thrillers now

809
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 2: Spelpi or sort of made it up as they went along,

810
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:42,920
Speaker 2: case by bloody case. And so you do see the

811
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:47,040
Speaker 2: evolution of you know, sort of no role book for detectives,

812
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:49,319
Speaker 2: and then you see them sort of gradually developing the

813
00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:52,719
Speaker 2: trade craft of detective work, and it's fascinating. You know,

814
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:54,560
Speaker 2: one of the early cases, one of the things that

815
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:57,680
Speaker 2: I found fascinating was one of their early cases in

816
00:41:57,719 --> 00:42:01,080
Speaker 2: eighteen thirty seven. You know, we find this poor woman's

817
00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:05,120
Speaker 2: found this membered on blong edgeware road. Her head's missing,

818
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:07,880
Speaker 2: her legs are missing. Her head eventually shows up in

819
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 2: a canal just north of central London. Scouting the artplusts

820
00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:12,279
Speaker 2: they had on display, they put it in a jar

821
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:14,320
Speaker 2: of spirits. They put it on display in the Pattinson

822
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:17,319
Speaker 2: workhouse to try and identify her, and it works. You know,

823
00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:19,600
Speaker 2: a guy comes through sees and goes, oh my god,

824
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:22,440
Speaker 2: that's my sister. And then that leads to the rest

825
00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 2: of the killers. So you see these sort of like innovative,

826
00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:27,880
Speaker 2: very sort of thinking out of the box approaches to

827
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:31,120
Speaker 2: solving these conflicts times. The other thing too, you know,

828
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:34,040
Speaker 2: when we're talking about murderers today, this is kind of

829
00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:36,279
Speaker 2: sound where it's relatively easy to kill someone. You just

830
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:38,560
Speaker 2: have to pull a trigger, you can shoot them. One

831
00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:40,040
Speaker 2: of the things that struck me when I was writing

832
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:42,920
Speaker 2: this book was Gott. People really put a lot of

833
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:46,439
Speaker 2: grim effort into murdering people. He didn't just shoot someone. Yeah,

834
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:48,960
Speaker 2: the level of violence was really off the charts.

835
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:51,680
Speaker 1: I talked on my show a lot about axe murders,

836
00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:54,279
Speaker 1: which I said, you know, Paul was sort of surprised,

837
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:56,560
Speaker 1: and I said, people used wood to burn for heat,

838
00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:58,880
Speaker 1: and so there was an axe in every household and

839
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:01,120
Speaker 1: if you wanted to kill someone, you could probably find

840
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:02,920
Speaker 1: an axe in their house if you need it to.

841
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:06,200
Speaker 1: And that happened a lot. It doesn't happen as much anymore.

842
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:08,040
Speaker 2: You've got to make use of the tools you have available.

843
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:10,680
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, I guess if you're determined to kill

844
00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:13,640
Speaker 1: somebody and find the weapon there, I've never understood. We

845
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:15,560
Speaker 1: could get into a whole other episode of people who

846
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:18,040
Speaker 1: do that. I still don't get it. But well, this

847
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:20,920
Speaker 1: has been really great, Simon, because I know that every

848
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:25,160
Speaker 1: policing agency has their flaws, big flaws, and I know

849
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:28,960
Speaker 1: that Scotland Yard is no exception. But between the history

850
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:32,920
Speaker 1: and as we've said them, innovativeness and the determination for

851
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:35,720
Speaker 1: a lot of the detectives who have worked for Scotland

852
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:38,640
Speaker 1: Yard and Metropolitan Police to crack some of the cases

853
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:41,840
Speaker 1: and to stop things terrorism, stop the things that they've stopped,

854
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:45,239
Speaker 1: has been really incredible to just see develop over the

855
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:47,640
Speaker 1: last you know, one hundred and fifty to two hundred years.

856
00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:49,880
Speaker 1: When you read all those old documents, I'm glad you

857
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:51,719
Speaker 1: pulled them all together into a book.

858
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:53,759
Speaker 2: Thank you very much. Gain No, it was great. One

859
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:55,160
Speaker 2: of the things I wanted to do with this book

860
00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:57,759
Speaker 2: is Scotlan Yard has a certain mistique to it from

861
00:43:57,880 --> 00:43:59,960
Speaker 2: its very curious name. You know, why is it closer

862
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:02,440
Speaker 2: to the fact that it has sold some of the

863
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:06,120
Speaker 2: most infamous crimes in the history. And when I started researching,

864
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:09,040
Speaker 2: five killings quickly turned into ten, turned into fifteen, turned

865
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:10,560
Speaker 2: in I mean, it was just like a lot of

866
00:44:10,719 --> 00:44:12,680
Speaker 2: murders about. One of the things that came out during

867
00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:15,040
Speaker 2: the research was that the Yard did and I did.

868
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:16,880
Speaker 2: I was sort of unaware of it, but the Yard

869
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 2: did play a pivotal part in sort of establishing the

870
00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:22,880
Speaker 2: foundation for modern day detective work. And so you know,

871
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:24,680
Speaker 2: a lot of the crimes that are in this book

872
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:27,080
Speaker 2: are in there for that very reason. They show the

873
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:30,520
Speaker 2: advancement of police work and sort of investigative technique. So,

874
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:32,759
Speaker 2: you know, I hope people come away thinking, Wow, I

875
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:34,400
Speaker 2: didn't realize Scotlandyard did all this stuff.

876
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:48,480
Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the

877
00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:51,400
Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That

878
00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:54,759
Speaker 1: Is Wicked, and American Sherlock and Don't Forget. There are

879
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:58,600
Speaker 1: twelve seasons of my historical true crime podcast, Tenfold More

880
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:02,279
Speaker 1: Wicked right here in this podcast feed, scroll back and

881
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 1: give them a listen if you haven't already. This has

882
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:08,920
Speaker 1: been an exactly right production. Our senior producer is Alexis

883
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:13,800
Speaker 1: a Morosi. Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This episode

884
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:17,400
Speaker 1: was mixed by John Bradley. Curtis heath is our composer.

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00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:22,120
Speaker 1: Artwork by Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen

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00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:26,600
Speaker 1: Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram at

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00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:30,720
Speaker 1: tenfold More Wicked and on Facebook at Wicked Words Pod