Speaker 1: But We Loved is a production of iHeart Podcasts and
Speaker 1: The Outspoken podcast Network.
Speaker 2: We just wanted to be husbands. We wanted to exist,
Speaker 2: and the joy we found in saying husband again and
Speaker 2: again and again was incredible. I promised John I would love,
Speaker 2: honor and protect him. And if I didn't keep fighting
Speaker 2: in his memory, on his behalf, on our marriages behalf,
Speaker 2: I wasn't living up to my promises to him. And
Speaker 2: if I didn't keep fighting, Ohio could send me a
Speaker 2: new death certificate telling me that John was unmarried at
Speaker 2: the time he died, and there was no way in
Speaker 2: hell I was going to let that happen.
Speaker 1: As a gay kid, growing up religious and in the South,
Speaker 1: I thought being gay was the worst thing I could
Speaker 1: ever be. Now, as a journalist, I'm trying to learn
Speaker 1: that by seeking out our history, and what I've found
Speaker 1: are people and stories full of courage, perseverance, and love.
Speaker 1: In this episode, we'll meet Jim Obergefell, the plaintiff in
Speaker 1: Obergafell b. Hodges, the case that legalized gay marriage for
Speaker 1: all of America. We'll learn about how the story behind
Speaker 1: that victory was one of loss and one of love.
Speaker 1: I'm Jordan Gonsolves and this is but we loved. I
Speaker 1: remember the day that gay marriage was legalized in America.
Speaker 1: It was June twenty sixth, twenty fifteen, and I was
Speaker 1: nineteen years old and still in the closet. But that
Speaker 1: day changed everything for me. I was ashamed of being
Speaker 1: gay up until that point, but seeing those images of
Speaker 1: couples in front of the Supreme Court, kissing defiantly and cheering,
Speaker 1: it caused my heart to beat so hard and fast
Speaker 1: in my chest. I had barely admitted to myself yet
Speaker 1: that I was gay, but for the first time ever,
Speaker 1: I felt pride, and I came out just a year later.
Speaker 1: The case that legalized gay marriage was called Obergefell vi. Hodges,
Speaker 1: and even though it had impacted me so deeply, truthfully,
Speaker 1: I didn't know much about it, and I didn't know
Speaker 1: anything about the love story behind it either. My next guest,
Speaker 1: Jim Obergefell, was the plaintiff in that case. He sued
Speaker 1: the government so that he and his partner of twenty
Speaker 1: years could be seen as lawfully married. Jim embodies everything
Speaker 1: this show is about. Faced with so much hardship, the
Speaker 1: love he had for his partner gave him the bravery
Speaker 1: to change America. We sort of have this thing on
Speaker 1: the show where I ask all the guests when did
Speaker 1: you know you were queer or gay? And it's really
Speaker 1: cute because I think it ends up kind of revealing
Speaker 1: a little bit about the time period and how you
Speaker 1: grew up. So why don't we start there, when did
Speaker 1: you know you were gay?
Speaker 2: Well, the first hint I can think I was when
Speaker 2: I was probably eight or nine years old. I remember
Speaker 2: back at that time the Sears and jcpenny catalogs were
Speaker 2: a big thing, especially at Christmas time. But I remember
Speaker 2: when my family finished with those catalogs and through it
Speaker 2: in the trash. I would pull them out of the
Speaker 2: trash because I wanted to cut out the pages of
Speaker 2: men's underwear.
Speaker 3: Oh wow, right now.
Speaker 2: I couldn't put into words why I wanted those pages,
Speaker 2: but I wanted those pages. But I also picked up
Speaker 2: or knew just from society that that wasn't right, that
Speaker 2: wasn't acceptable. So I hid them in a coffee can
Speaker 2: in the basement of my childhood home.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 2: So I would say, age of eight or nine.
Speaker 1: You grew up in Ohio and I'm wondering what did
Speaker 1: marriage mean to you? Growing up as this gay child
Speaker 1: that sort of didn't have many role models for it.
Speaker 2: When I thought about my future, I always pictured marriage
Speaker 2: because I'm I'm the baby of six and a Catholic family,
Speaker 2: and for me, I always thought, well, my future means
Speaker 2: I will get married to a woman and have children,
Speaker 2: because that's what a good Catholic boy does, and that's
Speaker 2: what all of my siblings did. I actually was engaged
Speaker 2: to a woman because that's how deeply I bought into
Speaker 2: that was my future. And I have to say I'm
Speaker 2: glad I didn't drag her into something that would have
Speaker 2: ended horribly for her, because in my mind, I was straight,
Speaker 2: I'm marrying a woman, I'll have kids, That's what I do.
Speaker 1: If you went through with that, I think we'd all
Speaker 1: be living in a very different America right.
Speaker 2: Now, potentially. But I'm glad it never came to that.
Speaker 2: I'm glad I could be myself.
Speaker 1: I'm interested to know how you and John actually met
Speaker 1: each other.
Speaker 2: So when I was an undergraduate school one of the
Speaker 2: other people in the program, he and I became really
Speaker 2: good friends, Kevin, and after we had both graduated, we
Speaker 2: went to a bar near the University of Cincinnati, and
Speaker 2: we walked in and Kevin said, oh, well, there's my
Speaker 2: friend John Arthur. And John was sitting at the bar
Speaker 2: drinking a Gin and tonic. So Kevin introduced us, and
Speaker 2: I was still in the closet, and John scared the
Speaker 2: daylights out of me because he seemed so comfortable in
Speaker 2: his skin as an outgay man. I thought for sure
Speaker 2: he was going to call me out on it, but
Speaker 2: he did it. So that was the first time we met.
Speaker 2: Shortly after that, I went to graduate school and it
Speaker 2: was that summer in graduate school that I finally came out.
Speaker 2: My friend Kevin and I got together again, and we
Speaker 2: went back to that same bar, and there's John sitting
Speaker 2: at the bar, drinking at gena tonic yet again. Now
Speaker 2: I'm newly out, and we're talking, and John said something
Speaker 2: along the lines of you'd never go out with someone
Speaker 2: like me. And I still don't know where I had
Speaker 2: the courage or the wit to say what I did,
Speaker 2: but I said, how do you know? You haven't asked?
Speaker 2: And the jerk didn't, so I thought, well, this is
Speaker 2: the second time I've met John. I'll never see him again.
Speaker 2: A couple months later, Kevin had become one of John's
Speaker 2: housemates and they were throwing a New Year's Eve party,
Speaker 2: so Kevin invited me to the party. I went to
Speaker 2: John's house for the party, and I like to say
Speaker 2: I never left for John and me. It really was
Speaker 2: love at third site, not at first sight. I was
Speaker 2: in the kitchen behind John and his friends were there
Speaker 2: and I was meeting people, and somehow my hands ended
Speaker 2: up in his pockets.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah.
Speaker 2: So a little bit later during the party, I don't
Speaker 2: remember if it was before or after midnight, but John
Speaker 2: said come with me. We went upstairs and took a shower.
Speaker 1: So that's how it all began, the typical gay fashion.
Speaker 1: I wonder, you know, you met John and you guys
Speaker 1: hit it off at this point? At what point did
Speaker 1: you know he was the one.
Speaker 2: It's hard to put a specific time on that, but
Speaker 2: I knew even that New Year's Eve party, I knew
Speaker 2: there was something there. I told John that I said
Speaker 2: I want to date. I want us to be a couple,
Speaker 2: and he tried to talk me out of it. He's
Speaker 2: like Jim, I've dated a lot of guys and it's
Speaker 2: never ended well. So he really tried to push me
Speaker 2: off and talk me out of it, and I said, no,
Speaker 2: I want to try this. But seven weeks later I
Speaker 2: was in Columbus, Ohio for a conference. John came up
Speaker 2: from Cincinnati and he gave me a diamond ring.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 2: So seven weeks we both knew there was something.
Speaker 1: There was The diamond ring supposed to symbolize him asking
Speaker 1: you to marry him.
Speaker 2: It wasn't necessarily that, but it symbolized we are a couple,
Speaker 2: were committed, and this is a relationship that has a future.
Speaker 3: So very early on it was a bond.
Speaker 2: It was absolutely it was one of those things we
Speaker 2: just knew.
Speaker 1: I'm realizing that John sounds really like he was really funny.
Speaker 1: What was John's personality? Like?
Speaker 2: Oh, John had the driest sense of humor, and he
Speaker 2: was so observant and so smart in his use of
Speaker 2: the English language. Is like just this incredible brevity of
Speaker 2: describing something in a matter of a couple words at most,
Speaker 2: and his wit not always appropriate, but it sure was fun.
Speaker 1: So after you guys had been together for several years
Speaker 1: and you moved in together, what was your favorite memory
Speaker 1: in that era of your relationship.
Speaker 2: You know, coming back to Cincinnati and buying a house
Speaker 2: and you know, putting that together and making that house
Speaker 2: our home.
Speaker 1: It sounds like the most precious part of that was
Speaker 1: finding a life partner.
Speaker 3: It really was.
Speaker 2: It was knowing that he's going to be here, He's
Speaker 2: going to be part of my life for the rest
Speaker 2: of my life.
Speaker 1: And you know, you guys are together at this point
Speaker 1: for several years. Was there a point during that time
Speaker 1: where you wanted to get married?
Speaker 3: Oh?
Speaker 2: Absolutely, John and I talked about marriage early on because
Speaker 2: it was something we wanted. We wanted to make that commitment,
Speaker 2: but we also both agreed that we weren't willing to
Speaker 2: do just a symbolic ceremony. We wanted it to actually
Speaker 2: mean something legal, So we just assumed it would never happen.
Speaker 1: Shifting gears. A little bit after you've been together for
Speaker 1: nineteen years, he starts to get sick.
Speaker 3: What happened to him?
Speaker 2: So the first thing that I noticed was in January
Speaker 2: of twenty twelve, when he was walking around our condo.
Speaker 2: It just sounded different wearing shoes. It just felt like
Speaker 2: one foot was slapping the floor harder than the other,
Speaker 2: and I picked up on it, so I asked him
Speaker 2: if he had pulled a muscle, sprained an ankle, but
Speaker 2: he hadn't, so he thought, well, whatever this is, it'll
Speaker 2: go away. Well it didn't go away. So I finally
Speaker 2: convinced him he really need to go to the doctor.
Speaker 2: So in April of twenty twelve, he finally went to
Speaker 2: our family doctor. That started lots of testing. So he
Speaker 2: saw one neurologist, he saw a second neurologist, and he
Speaker 2: saw a third neurologist. And I still remember the day
Speaker 2: he came home from seeing that third neurologist because he said, Jim,
Speaker 2: stay home, I just want to go. I was sitting
Speaker 2: at the kitchen island and he walked in from that
Speaker 2: third neurologist appointment, and I jumped up and he hugged
Speaker 2: me and started to cry, and he said, this neurologist concurs.
Speaker 2: It's ALS.
Speaker 1: And for the listeners who don't know what ALS is,
Speaker 1: what is it?
Speaker 2: So ALS is a neurological disease. And the way I
Speaker 2: think of it, and the way I explain it to
Speaker 2: myself and others is think about walking. Your brain is
Speaker 2: telling your muscles everything in your body what to do
Speaker 2: to walk. But with ALS, the connections between your brain
Speaker 2: and those muscles involved in walking, they start to break
Speaker 2: down and they don't repair, so over time those connections
Speaker 2: keep breaking, and for most people, the eventual cause of
Speaker 2: death is suffocation because you get to the point where
Speaker 2: those messages from your brain aren't even making it to
Speaker 2: your diaphragm, so you can't breathe. But he held on
Speaker 2: to the ability to speak almost to the end. I
Speaker 2: mean the last couple of months he can only speak
Speaker 2: a sentence or two of time. But I really am
Speaker 2: grateful for that because I could still revel in his wit,
Speaker 2: his brains, his sense of humor. Other people, one of
Speaker 2: the first things they lose is the ability to speak.
Speaker 1: And so he's in his forties. What was that like
Speaker 1: for you as his partner, coming to terms with this
Speaker 1: diagnosis so early in his life.
Speaker 2: I mean, simply put, it wasn't easy. And to have
Speaker 2: that person you love more than anything, the person you
Speaker 2: think you're going to spend decades more with, to have
Speaker 2: him come home and say I have a terminal illness
Speaker 2: and I'm going to die sooner rather than later. That's
Speaker 2: a really painful thing to hear. I'm just going to
Speaker 2: lose the most important person in my world.
Speaker 1: So after the diagnosis, how were you thinking about caring
Speaker 1: for him because you were pretty young.
Speaker 2: I knew from the moment he came home and said,
Speaker 2: this neurologist concurs its ALS, I knew there was no
Speaker 2: way I was sending him to a care facility. So
Speaker 2: for me, that was a given. He's not going to
Speaker 2: a facility. I don't know how hard it's going to be.
Speaker 2: I don't care how hard it might be. I'm taking
Speaker 2: care of him.
Speaker 1: Wow, and Jim, what was some of your duties as
Speaker 1: his full time caretaker?
Speaker 2: It was everything. I mean. John would also admit, you know,
Speaker 2: even before his diagnosis, he would admit I took care
Speaker 2: of him. I did all the cooking. The deal was.
Speaker 2: The deal was that I would do the cooking, he
Speaker 2: would do the cleanup. That never happened, but I didn't
Speaker 2: care because for me, cooking and everything that went with
Speaker 2: it for someone I loved, That's what I liked doing.
Speaker 2: So caring for someone with ALS as they slowly lose
Speaker 2: every ability. You know, it got to the point where
Speaker 2: I had to lift him out of bed to take
Speaker 2: him to the bathroom. I fed him as food, I
Speaker 2: cleaned him. I took care of him in every way
Speaker 2: that he needed. Because, of course, I.
Speaker 1: Would when we come back, Jim and John decide to
Speaker 1: get married. It's twenty thirteen. John Arthur is progressively getting
Speaker 1: more sick because of als. He and Jim had always
Speaker 1: dreamed of getting married, but at this point, gay marriage
Speaker 1: in America was like a patchwork. It was legal in
Speaker 1: some states and illegal in others. And even if you
Speaker 1: did get married in a state where it was legal,
Speaker 1: the federal government still would not recognize your marriage. That's
Speaker 1: because of a law called the Defense of Marriage Act
Speaker 1: or DOMA. So I know you guys said dreamed of
Speaker 1: getting married, but you couldn't.
Speaker 2: What had changed, Well, part of it was completely out
Speaker 2: of our control. So this was June twenty six, twenty thirteen.
Speaker 2: I was working at the dining table and John called
Speaker 2: me into his room because there was news coming off
Speaker 2: from the Supreme Court. So I was standing next to
Speaker 2: his bed, holding his hand when we learned that the
Speaker 2: Supreme Court, with their decision United States versus Windsor, they
Speaker 2: had struck down the federal defensive Mary Jack. And as
Speaker 2: we're standing there and as that news is sinking in,
Speaker 2: I realized and wait, here's our opportunity, at least for
Speaker 2: the federal government to see us, to recognize us as
Speaker 2: a married couple. So we hadn't talked about it, hadn't
Speaker 2: thought about it, but I spontaneously proposed. I said let's
Speaker 2: get married, and luckily he said yes. So it truly
Speaker 2: was nothing more than the first time in our almost
Speaker 2: twenty one years together living in Ohio. Here is our
Speaker 2: opportunity to get married and to actually have it mean
Speaker 2: something legal.
Speaker 1: So John is pretty sick at this point, but because
Speaker 1: of Doma being struck down, you decide to get married.
Speaker 1: What was the wedding like? Because at this point John
Speaker 1: was pretty immobile.
Speaker 2: John was completely bedridden, had no physical abilities. So at
Speaker 2: this point John could say maybe two sentences at a time.
Speaker 2: He could still move his right hand a bit, but
Speaker 2: not much.
Speaker 3: That was it. He had no.
Speaker 2: Other physical abilities. In essence, his whole left side was useless.
Speaker 2: His right side other than moving his right hand a
Speaker 2: little bit, that was really all all of the ability
Speaker 2: that he had, and being able to speak, which again
Speaker 2: I feel really fortunate that I was able to enjoy
Speaker 2: his wit and his voice. So I started researching the
Speaker 2: states where we could get married. But then as I
Speaker 2: continued to research, discovered that Maryland was the only state
Speaker 2: that did not require both people to appear in person
Speaker 2: to apply for the marriage license. So for me, my
Speaker 2: whole goal was I want to keep John safe and
Speaker 2: comfortable as much as possible. Maryland just made that more
Speaker 2: of a possibility than other states. But then the big
Speaker 2: problem was how do we get there?
Speaker 3: You know, sure I.
Speaker 2: Could have put John in's wheelchair, put him in our
Speaker 2: wheelchair minivan and driven to Maryland, but that would have
Speaker 2: been so incredibly painful and hard on him. Same thing
Speaker 2: with an ambulance, and I couldn't take him to the
Speaker 2: airport and fly and Delta or American. He had no abilities.
Speaker 2: So really left us one option, and that was a
Speaker 2: chartered medical jet.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 1: So you're climbing through all of these extraordinary obstacles, but
Speaker 1: you make it work and you're going to get married.
Speaker 3: How was the wedding?
Speaker 2: So on a Thursday in July two thousand and three teen,
Speaker 2: John and I took an ambulance to the airport lock
Speaker 2: An Airport in Cincinnati, the municipal airport, and we boarded
Speaker 2: this tiny jet and we flew to Baltimore Washington International
Speaker 2: Airport and we landed and we simply parked on the
Speaker 2: tarmac and we were on the ground for maybe at
Speaker 2: most thirty minutes. But in that time, the nurse and
Speaker 2: the pilots left the airplane so we could be on
Speaker 2: our own and I just got to take John's hand
Speaker 2: and we got we got to say, IV wed.
Speaker 3: Does it still make you emotional?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: It does?
Speaker 2: You know. I I wrote vows. John didn't have the
Speaker 2: ability to write vows, but he's he said a sentence
Speaker 2: or two, and we just simply got to say, you're
Speaker 2: the one.
Speaker 3: That's so beautiful.
Speaker 2: It was. It really was the happiest moment of our
Speaker 2: life together. And it's funny. I think a lot of
Speaker 2: people would say, well, you've been together almost twenty one years,
Speaker 2: what difference did it make? It doesn't change anything, and
Speaker 2: I begged to differ. It changed everything. We felt different,
Speaker 2: we felt more complete, and it was just something we
Speaker 2: wanted for so long.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Jim, what was marriage? What did it mean to
Speaker 1: you and John?
Speaker 3: Together?
Speaker 2: For us, it really meant dignity and respect and being
Speaker 2: seen by our country, being seen by the government. So
Speaker 2: for us, it wasn't It wasn't financial, it wasn't benefits,
Speaker 2: it wasn't anything other than you have been my partner
Speaker 2: for almost twenty one years. I want to use the
Speaker 2: word husband, and I want that word to mean what
Speaker 2: it means to every other person who uses that word.
Speaker 2: But John's pending death just made it all that more
Speaker 2: important to us to be able to say, you're the
Speaker 2: person I choose, You're the person I love, and I
Speaker 2: will fight for you, protect you, and love you no
Speaker 2: matter what.
Speaker 1: Even though the federal government was forced to recognize Jim
Speaker 1: and John's marriage at this point, individual states could still
Speaker 1: discriminate against gay couples. They could say, Hey, we know
Speaker 1: you got married in a state where gay marriage is legal,
Speaker 1: but it's not legal here, so your marriage is not
Speaker 1: valid here. This is what happened to Jim and John.
Speaker 1: They got married in Maryland but lived in Ohio, where
Speaker 1: gay marriage was illegal. They knew this, but they didn't
Speaker 1: quite understand the stakes yet.
Speaker 2: So we got married. On Thursday. Friends of ours went
Speaker 2: to a party and they ran into a civil rights attorney,
Speaker 2: al Gerhardstein. He's been fighting for civil rights for over
Speaker 2: fifty years now, so they share part of our story.
Speaker 2: And he reached out to say, would you guys be
Speaker 2: open to meeting? So he said sure, so he came
Speaker 2: on Tuesday, five days after we got married, and in
Speaker 2: that conversation he pulled out the blank Ohio death certificate.
Speaker 2: He said, now, guys, I bet you haven't thought about
Speaker 2: this because you just got married. Why would you be
Speaker 2: thinking about John's death certificate? But do you understand that
Speaker 2: when John dies, his last record as a person will
Speaker 2: be wrong? Because here on the death certificate, where it
Speaker 2: says marital status at time of death, Ohio will say
Speaker 2: John was unmarried in this field. In this field here
Speaker 2: for surviving spouse name, Jim, your name isn't going to
Speaker 2: be there.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 2: John and I knew Ohio wouldn't recognize our marriage because
Speaker 2: Ohio had its own state level defense at marya Jack,
Speaker 2: but that was an abstract understanding. But to have Al
Speaker 2: tell us that John's last record as a person as
Speaker 2: a citizen of the state of Ohio in the United States,
Speaker 2: to say that last record would be wrong, it broke
Speaker 2: our hearts. But I think perhaps more importantly, it made
Speaker 2: us angry. Al said, do you want to do something
Speaker 2: about it? Al tells me we talked for less than
Speaker 2: a minute and said, yes, we want to do something
Speaker 2: about this. So that's something meant filing a lawsuit, and
Speaker 2: we filed that lawsuit three days later, on Friday, eight
Speaker 2: days after we got married.
Speaker 1: So in other words, Jim, basically you all had filed
Speaker 1: this lawsuit because in your mind, in your heart, you
Speaker 1: were thinking this isn't right. We did what was legal,
Speaker 1: and it should be reflected on my husband's last document
Speaker 1: as a person that he's my husband exactly right.
Speaker 2: We wanted John to die a married man, and we
Speaker 2: wanted that to mean something in the state of Ohio
Speaker 2: where we both lived, and you know, in our mind,
Speaker 2: when Al explained what the basis of his argument would be,
Speaker 2: it made perfect sense. You know, in Ohio, first cousins
Speaker 2: cannot get a marriage license and get married. In Ohio,
Speaker 2: an underaged couple cannot get a marriage license and get married. However,
Speaker 2: in other states where first cousins can get a marriage
Speaker 2: license and get married, or an underaged couple can get
Speaker 2: a marriage license and get married, even though that's a
Speaker 2: marriage that cannot be entered into in Ohio, as soon
Speaker 2: as that couple crosses the border into Ohio, Ohio immediately
Speaker 2: recognizes that marriage and gives them all of the benefits, protections,
Speaker 2: respect everything comes with marriage. They give it to that couple,
Speaker 2: even though it's a marriage that could not be entered
Speaker 2: into an Ohio. And our argument was really pretty simple, Ohio,
Speaker 2: what you're doing is wrong. You're creating separate classes of
Speaker 2: citizens by recognizing some out of state marriages and not others.
Speaker 1: Now, Jim, the case is making its way through the
Speaker 1: courts and in private, John's health is declining and you're
Speaker 1: still his caregiver. What was that like being a part
Speaker 1: of this very public case while privately your life partner
Speaker 1: is dying.
Speaker 2: You know, when we first talked about doing this, filing
Speaker 2: the case, John gave me his okay because he knew
Speaker 2: if we did this it would take me away from
Speaker 2: him at times, so he knew I couldn't either with
Speaker 2: him twenty four to seven like I had been. But
Speaker 2: he was okay with that. I thought we should do it,
Speaker 2: and he also gave me his permission for me not
Speaker 2: to be with him all the time to do what
Speaker 2: I needed to do. Now, I also have to say,
Speaker 2: you know, we filed that lawsuit on Friday, I was
Speaker 2: in court on Monday, and we won that same day
Speaker 2: because that judge issued a temporary restraining order which said, Ohio,
Speaker 2: when John dies, you have to recognize their marriage on
Speaker 2: his death certificate. When John died three months later to
Speaker 2: the day, October twenty second, twenty thirteen, after that is
Speaker 2: when then the state of Ohio could appeal, and they
Speaker 2: did so.
Speaker 3: He died a married man.
Speaker 2: He died a married man. He died knowing his death
Speaker 2: certificate would say he was buried to me. In those
Speaker 2: three months before he died, we used the word husband
Speaker 2: all the time, easily a couple hundred times every day.
Speaker 2: Are you thirsty, husband? What do you want to watch? Husband?
Speaker 2: We used it so frequently, Jordan, because finally now we
Speaker 2: can say it and it actually means something, and it
Speaker 2: meant something, not just legally. It meant something to us.
Speaker 2: You weren't my husband and I can say that word
Speaker 2: and it means the same thing that it means to
Speaker 2: anyone else in this country who says they are a husband.
Speaker 2: And honestly, that was what we wanted. We just wanted
Speaker 2: to be husbands. We wanted to exist, and the joy
Speaker 2: we found in saying husband again and again and again
Speaker 2: was incredible.
Speaker 1: When we come back, Ohio reverses its decision on Jim's
Speaker 1: marriage and he decides to fight back. On October twenty second,
Speaker 1: twenty thirteen, John Arthur passed away peacefully from als related complications.
Speaker 1: Even though Jim was devastated, he was comforted knowing that
Speaker 1: John's death certificate read that he was his husband. But
Speaker 1: a few months after John died, the state of Ohio
Speaker 1: filed an appeal. They didn't want Jim's name on that
Speaker 1: death certificate, and in the midst of his grief, Jim
Speaker 1: decided to fight back and he lost. Ohio had won
Speaker 1: their appeal. Jim's last option was to go to the
Speaker 1: highest court in the land, the Supreme Court. Nineteen seventy
Speaker 1: one was the last time the Supreme Court had addressed
Speaker 1: nationwide legalization of gay marriage. In a case called Baker v. Nelson,
Speaker 1: they effectively upheld a lower court ruling that denied the
Speaker 1: right to same sex marriage. But over forty years later,
Speaker 1: they took Jim's case and it was getting a ton
Speaker 1: of publicity. Even though Jim was shattered that he had
Speaker 1: lost the love of his life, he was determined to win.
Speaker 1: After John died. Is sort of when you get pushback
Speaker 1: from the government and they're trying to change things, why
Speaker 1: was it important for you to keep the case going
Speaker 1: and to keep fighting after John had died a married man.
Speaker 2: Well, honestly, because I promised John I would love, honor
Speaker 2: and protect him. And if I didn't keep fighting in
Speaker 2: his memory, on his behalf, on our marriage's behalf, that
Speaker 2: I wasn't living up to my promises to him. And
Speaker 2: if I didn't keep fighting, it meant that Ohio could
Speaker 2: get to the point where, you know, if things went
Speaker 2: horribly wrong, Ohio could send me a new death certificate
Speaker 2: telling me that John was unmarried at the time he died.
Speaker 2: There was no way in hell I was going to
Speaker 2: let that happen. I had to keep fighting. I promised John,
Speaker 2: and I deserved the right to call myself his widow
Speaker 2: work for the rest of my life.
Speaker 3: What was the promise you made to him?
Speaker 2: You're my person. I will do everything to fight for you,
Speaker 2: to care for you, to love you. Those are the
Speaker 2: promises that in my mind, when you marry someone or
Speaker 2: when you commit to someone, those are the promises you make.
Speaker 1: So, Jim, now the case is becoming bigger, and it's
Speaker 1: going to the Supreme Court, and it's getting all of
Speaker 1: this attention from the media and from everyone around the country.
Speaker 1: What was it like for you to fight for this
Speaker 1: landmark case and also be grieving your partner at the
Speaker 1: same time.
Speaker 2: So many times people would say, especially when I would
Speaker 2: speak and tell our story, people would say, Jim, it
Speaker 2: just must be really difficult to talk about John, to
Speaker 2: talk about what he went through in his death. And
Speaker 2: my response was always no, I get to talk about
Speaker 2: my husband all the time. Talking about him keeps him alive.
Speaker 2: I'm talking about him because I'm fighting for him. I'm
Speaker 2: fighting for us, I'm fighting for people like us. So
Speaker 2: for me continuing the fight and you know, going to
Speaker 2: the six cercret Court of Appeals, losing their appealing to
Speaker 2: the Supreme Court, going to the Supreme Court, all of
Speaker 2: that was part of my career process because even though
Speaker 2: John was gone, he was ever present. I was talking
Speaker 2: about him, thinking about him, fighting for him. So I
Speaker 2: feel honestly fortunate that I had that opportunity.
Speaker 1: So what you're saying is that even though he wasn't
Speaker 1: here and you were going through the case alone, getting
Speaker 1: the chance to talk about your love for him and
Speaker 1: who he was so publicly was part of your grieving process.
Speaker 2: I think I would have been a lot worse off
Speaker 2: if I didn't have that opportunity to keep him alive
Speaker 2: and to talk about him and everything that I was
Speaker 2: able to do.
Speaker 3: I mean, I.
Speaker 2: Certainly cried in private, but I think back to those
Speaker 2: times and I was just me.
Speaker 1: It's twenty fifteen, and it's been two years since Jim
Speaker 1: filed the case and two years since his partner John
Speaker 1: passed away. He had been on a media tour and
Speaker 1: he was continuing to fight the case in court while
Speaker 1: grieving the loss of his husband. At the same time,
Speaker 1: the case had officially been argued, and now he anxiously
Speaker 1: waited for the verdict. His husband's legacy and their marriage
Speaker 1: were on the line. On the morning of June twenty six,
Speaker 1: twenty fifteen, he sat in the Supreme Court, not sure
Speaker 1: what their decision would be. Take me to that moment
Speaker 1: that you want. It's June twenty fifteen and you're in
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court and you win. What was going through
Speaker 1: your mind when you found out?
Speaker 2: When it sank in that yeah, we won. I mean
Speaker 2: I burst into tears. I could hear people around the
Speaker 2: courtroom sobbing. Elle who is in the courtroom. Our attorney
Speaker 2: told me later he's never seen so many attorneys crying
Speaker 2: in a courtroom, and of course my first thought was, John,
Speaker 2: I wish you were here. I wish you could experience this,
Speaker 2: and I wish you could know that our marriage could
Speaker 2: never be erased.
Speaker 1: Jim, you said that John was this master of words.
Speaker 1: What do you think he would have said when you
Speaker 1: guys want.
Speaker 2: I think it would be a variation of what he
Speaker 2: said when I left home to go to the hearing,
Speaker 2: the very first tearing in our case, and as I'm
Speaker 2: getting ready to walk out of his room and head
Speaker 2: to court, he said, go kick some ass. So I
Speaker 2: think on June twenty six, twenty fifteen, it would have
Speaker 2: been a variation of that, Jim, you kicked ass.
Speaker 3: He would have been proud of you.
Speaker 2: Which he would have, and then he would have come
Speaker 2: up with something really insightful and beautiful and wonderful. But
Speaker 2: I think his first reaction would have been, yeah, you did,
Speaker 2: You kicked ass.
Speaker 1: Do you find comfort in knowing that his legacy is
Speaker 1: everywhere now? I do.
Speaker 2: I love that something really good happened in this country
Speaker 2: because John loved me and I loved him. And even
Speaker 2: if people don't necessarily know all of the details or
Speaker 2: even remember John's name, a good percentage of people in
Speaker 2: this country know that Olbergafelvi Hoadjes came about because of
Speaker 2: love and loss. But you know, I don't care if
Speaker 2: people even really know my first name. I don't care
Speaker 2: if they think about me and John. I just want
Speaker 2: them to think that means marriage, and that means the
Speaker 2: queer community is closer to being equal in our country.
Speaker 1: You know, Actually, Jim, it's funny because I was thinking
Speaker 1: about this the other day and I was nineteen when
Speaker 1: obergefel Viajes happened, and I ended up coming out the
Speaker 1: very next summer. I was still in the closet, but
Speaker 1: it had everything to do with me coming out, Like
Speaker 1: knowing that people like me could get married made it
Speaker 1: feel a little bit safer to be open and honest
Speaker 1: and have the confidence to tell people who I am.
Speaker 1: And so it's such an honor to be able to
Speaker 1: thank you for that, and John too.
Speaker 2: Well, thank you for sharing that. Jordan. You know, I
Speaker 2: spoke at the University of Tennessee two years ago and
Speaker 2: a young student came up to me afterwards and said, Jim,
Speaker 2: I just want you to know if it weren't for
Speaker 2: Obergafelvi Hodges. If it weren'd for marriage equality, I would
Speaker 2: have committed suicide. That's that's John's legacy, saving her life
Speaker 2: and the life of countless others who in that decision.
Speaker 2: A stupid legal case which most of us are eyes
Speaker 2: roll when we think about lawsuits, But a lawsuit gave
Speaker 2: her hope, and I know she isn't the only one.
Speaker 2: So for me, if that's the legacy, the only legacy
Speaker 2: I have, I'm pretty darn good with that.
Speaker 1: But We Loved is hosted by me Jordan Gonsolves. New
Speaker 1: episodes drop every Wednesday. If you want to write in
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Speaker 1: The Outspoken Podcast Network and iHeart Podcasts. But We Loved
Speaker 1: was originally developed with Pushkin Industries. Our producers Areshino Zaki,
Speaker 1: Michael June, Emily Meronoff, and Joey pat Our executive producers
Speaker 1: are me Maya Howard and Kittrina Norble. Fact checking by
Speaker 1: Marisa Brown, original music by Steve Bone Special thanks to
Speaker 1: Jay Bronson and Roquel Willis. If you loved this episode,
Speaker 1: leave us a rating and follow us on Apple Podcasts
Speaker 1: and Spotify, and thank you for listening.
Speaker 3: I'll see you next week.