1 00:00:00,960 --> 00:00:05,519 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised. 2 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:15,360 Speaker 2: Every twelve years the Year of the Dragon. This year 3 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:18,360 Speaker 2: is again the Year of the Dragon, is supposed to 4 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 2: be a year of political instability because Dragon symbolized China, 5 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 2: a symbolized prosperity, and also symbolized lot the turbulence. 6 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:36,919 Speaker 3: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 7 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 3: in Austin, Texas. 8 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 1: I'm also the co host of the. 9 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:43,600 Speaker 3: Podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career, 10 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:47,600 Speaker 3: research for my many audio and book projects has taken 11 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:50,880 Speaker 3: me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down 12 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 3: with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers, 13 00:00:55,680 --> 00:01:00,959 Speaker 3: and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious crime cases. 14 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:04,920 Speaker 3: This is about the choices writers make, both good and bad, 15 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 3: and it's a deep dive into the unpublished details behind 16 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 3: their stories. A murder conspiracy in China is at the 17 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:18,479 Speaker 3: center of a fascinating true crime story involving politics, greed, 18 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:22,119 Speaker 3: and deception. There are no heroes in this book, but boy, 19 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 3: what a drama. Author Win Wang Hong tells me about 20 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 3: his fantastic book A death in the Lucky Holiday Hotel, murder, money, 21 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 3: and an epic power struggle in China. Let's start first 22 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:40,880 Speaker 3: with this is twenty eleven when this murder happens, right 23 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:44,200 Speaker 3: and where in China? Will you tell me where we 24 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 3: are in China and kind of the brief overview of 25 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 3: what's happening with politics there, and maybe kind of where 26 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:51,880 Speaker 3: we are just in general. 27 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:56,560 Speaker 2: This was happening in mid November two thousand and eleven, 28 00:01:57,080 --> 00:02:00,440 Speaker 2: and we are right now in the middle of China's 29 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:03,640 Speaker 2: One of China's mega city is called chung Qing in 30 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 2: southwestern part of China. It has thirty two million people, 31 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 2: so it's a huge city. Is sitting near the Yans River. 32 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:14,839 Speaker 2: If people who are listeners will know about the three 33 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 2: gorgeous that one of the biggest rivers in China. 34 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:19,920 Speaker 4: This city is right there. 35 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:23,080 Speaker 2: And then in chung Qing city and the head of 36 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 2: the city in the US called the mayor. In China 37 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 2: we call the party secretary of chu Qing, which is 38 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 2: the number one thick of the city. And then he 39 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 2: himself is a princely, which means he was the son 40 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 2: of a senior commons party leader. So he had taken 41 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:45,680 Speaker 2: over about five years ago. And then the wife also 42 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:47,960 Speaker 2: came from a very prominent family. 43 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:48,960 Speaker 4: She was a lawyer. 44 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:52,320 Speaker 2: So this is the background, and the city was going 45 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 2: through a very dramatic change, as you know that China 46 00:02:56,080 --> 00:03:00,240 Speaker 2: after nineteen seventy six, after mild died, it went through 47 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 2: a very big market reform and then was tilted more 48 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 2: toward the west. And then as the market reform was 49 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 2: going on, and then there were also the problems started occur. 50 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 2: For example, the rich get richer and the poor get poor, 51 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 2: the gap between the reach and the poor. Prime rates 52 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:22,400 Speaker 2: have gone up. And then so this mayor came in, 53 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:26,240 Speaker 2: or the party secretary called war. He came in and 54 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 2: he implemented a series of programs against organized crimes and 55 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 2: that he wanted to return China to the old Commings 56 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 2: era and a lot of people, common people, they love it. 57 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 2: So this is against this background this murder happened. So 58 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 2: on November sixteenth or seventeenth of twenty eleven, and then 59 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 2: there was a hotel right outside the downtown of chung Qing. 60 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 2: We heard about chun Qing Express that's the same city, 61 00:03:56,880 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 2: the mega city in southwest China. In this hotel, I 62 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 2: actually visited the hotel in twenty twelve. On the surface 63 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:08,119 Speaker 2: is a regular like a two or three star hotel 64 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 2: with a very goudy like a motel type of things. 65 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:16,040 Speaker 2: You imagine walking there, the big Chinese fish tank, and 66 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 2: then some people lying around. But outside in the periphery 67 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 2: of the hotel, in the vicinity of the hotel, there 68 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 2: were twelve European style little townhouses, the villas. There's a 69 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 2: lot of privacy and then businesses. If you want to 70 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:34,360 Speaker 2: have a we can get away, you can stay there, 71 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 2: or sometimes you have business meetings. It's a very secluded 72 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 2: area right on top of the mountain, so it's a 73 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:44,599 Speaker 2: very secluded area. And then on that day and then 74 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:47,919 Speaker 2: the people who were working at the hotel, they noticed 75 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:51,440 Speaker 2: that in room sixteen oh five there was a sign 76 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:55,720 Speaker 2: do not disturb sign on but the cleaning staff reported 77 00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:59,360 Speaker 2: that nobody has gone into the hotel room for about 78 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:01,640 Speaker 2: two or three day. They didn't see anybody coming out, 79 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 2: and the only thing they saw that was three nights ago. 80 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:09,360 Speaker 2: And then they were the man, a foreign man and 81 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 2: also a Chinese woman. They walked into the hotel into 82 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 2: that room, and then the woman left, but the man 83 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:16,719 Speaker 2: never left. 84 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:19,360 Speaker 4: See what was happening. So they knocked on the door. 85 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 2: There was nobody in the door, said finally, they called 86 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:22,359 Speaker 2: the security. 87 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 4: They opened the door. 88 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:27,279 Speaker 2: They found the body of a foreigner, a westerner, and 89 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 2: then after they checked the registration, they found out he 90 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 2: was a busishman with the Beijing residential card. He looked 91 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 2: in the capital city of China, Beijing. So the immediate 92 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:42,159 Speaker 2: called the police, and police came and then they notified 93 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:46,360 Speaker 2: the police chief of the city, called one the police chief. 94 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:50,039 Speaker 2: He came over and he looked around and he assigned 95 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 2: the case to four of his trusted police officers, and 96 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 2: then they did a round of the investigations and then 97 00:05:56,360 --> 00:06:00,200 Speaker 2: they realized. They said he died of excessive drinking, and 98 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 2: that he was a British businessman called Neil Haywood. He 99 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:08,280 Speaker 2: had a consulting business and then obviously he drank too 100 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:11,400 Speaker 2: much and then he might have died of a heart attack. 101 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:14,600 Speaker 2: So they noticed his wife. He married the Chinese national. 102 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:18,119 Speaker 2: They have two children, so the wife was very sad. 103 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:20,920 Speaker 2: But then they also notified his family in the UK 104 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 2: and his mother heard about that. She was really shocked 105 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:28,520 Speaker 2: because Neil Heywood's father had just died of a heart 106 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 2: attack not long ago, so they normally think that when 107 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:35,120 Speaker 2: he drank, excess drinking led to a heart attack. So 108 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 2: they have the family signed the death papers everything, and 109 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:40,839 Speaker 2: then they had the body permitted right away. 110 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:41,480 Speaker 1: Wow. 111 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:46,120 Speaker 2: The conclusion was that he just simply died of excess drinking, 112 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 2: and then nobody talked about it, and then they sent 113 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 2: the ashses back to Beijing to his wife, and then 114 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 2: for a while it sounds like the case was settled. 115 00:06:56,839 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 2: But there was a Chinese phrase you probably heard in China. 116 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:04,040 Speaker 2: There is if you see the movie Goes in the US, right. 117 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:08,719 Speaker 2: Chinese have similar sayings saying that if somebody was wrongfully 118 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 2: killed or murdered, and then their ghosts wouldn't dissipate, They 119 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 2: would rack public in this world until they would avenge 120 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 2: their own death, until all people know about it. There 121 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 2: was a lot of the Asian Chinese stories talk about 122 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 2: the ghosts that on death stuff. 123 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 4: So people would say. 124 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 2: Neil, he would died a wrongful death or something, and 125 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 2: then his goals never dissipated, and then several months later 126 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 2: this whole case started unravel. 127 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:42,360 Speaker 1: Well. I have several questions. 128 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 3: Did the media think that this was a big story 129 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 3: in any way that this business is Western businessman. This 130 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 3: British businessman has died in a hotel. This was a 131 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:55,960 Speaker 3: non story I guess for them. 132 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 2: Yes, because first thing is media in China was very 133 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 2: tightly controlled by the government. They all stayed round media 134 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 2: right and also the Chunching police department. They never notified 135 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 2: the media, so there wasn't much report about it. The 136 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 2: second part is there were so many foreigners living in 137 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 2: China at that time, so if it's the excessive drinking 138 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 2: and then never caused a major headline, it just a 139 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 2: foreigner died, and normally China try lay down the death 140 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 2: because they didn't want to cause any international incident. It's 141 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 2: just a normal death. So there wasn't much reporting at all. 142 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:33,599 Speaker 2: Other people they never heard about the case, and I 143 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:36,960 Speaker 2: never heard about it until after later on when this 144 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 2: whole case exploded for some other reasons. But nobody knew 145 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 2: anything about it. It just went away. 146 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:46,800 Speaker 3: What did you know about Neil Haywood? Can you give 147 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:48,840 Speaker 3: me an idea of who he was as a person. 148 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 3: You said he was married, he was in Beijing, he 149 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:54,440 Speaker 3: had two children. Was there any reason to believe that 150 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 3: this was an important man or this was consequential in 151 00:08:57,400 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 3: any way. 152 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:02,080 Speaker 2: At that time, all we knew that he was born 153 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 2: in the UK and attended one of the prestigious they 154 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:11,280 Speaker 2: called public schools in the UK, Herald School there. And 155 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:15,200 Speaker 2: then he graduated from University Warwick with a degree on 156 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:16,839 Speaker 2: internatural relations. 157 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 4: And then he claimed. 158 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:23,360 Speaker 2: That his grandparents of great grandparents serving the House of 159 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:27,320 Speaker 2: Lord and then used in the nineteen thirties his great 160 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:31,560 Speaker 2: grandfather served as a council General of the British Mission 161 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 2: in China. So because of this connection he came to 162 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:38,719 Speaker 2: China in the nineteen nineties. You know, a lot of 163 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:43,679 Speaker 2: foreigners students after graduated, they traveled to Japan China to 164 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 2: teach English as a second foreign language. So he didn't 165 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 2: come to major city like Beijing, Shanghai or the cities 166 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 2: that people normally know. 167 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:57,360 Speaker 4: He ended up in the city called Dhalian. 168 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 2: In northeastern part of China, in the man Turian part 169 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:03,640 Speaker 2: of China. The dani And city is a it's a 170 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:06,920 Speaker 2: seaport city, so he went over there and started to 171 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 2: teach English. In those days, it was very popular a 172 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 2: lot of the Chinese, especially the fund families, They wanted 173 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:16,840 Speaker 2: to send their children abroad to study because getting a 174 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:18,760 Speaker 2: degree in the US in Britain is. 175 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 4: Called gold plated, is much more marketable. 176 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:25,560 Speaker 2: So they want their especially some of the upper class Chinese, 177 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 2: they want their kids to be sent to a British 178 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:30,840 Speaker 2: boarding school. And then they want their kids to grow 179 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 2: up with standard speak English, with better than I deal, 180 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:38,080 Speaker 2: with a no accent, and with the Queen's English. You 181 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:40,600 Speaker 2: know that stuff. So he had attracted a lot of 182 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 2: the students there. And we also learned later on when 183 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:47,320 Speaker 2: one of the senior leader's kids they went to send 184 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 2: to London, he offered to help. 185 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:53,560 Speaker 4: And if he know a lot of the upper class people. 186 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 2: Once he knew more and more of the senior leaders 187 00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 2: and got into their circle, and if he studied his 188 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 2: own consultant business helping people. For example, he was saying, 189 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:07,720 Speaker 2: if a British businessman or a company in the US, 190 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 2: you want to do a set up business in China, 191 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:13,880 Speaker 2: he was supposed to be very well versed in Chinese cultures. 192 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:17,839 Speaker 2: He could offer consulting business. So that was his background 193 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 2: at that time. And then you know, there was a 194 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:22,079 Speaker 2: lot of people like him, a lot of people who 195 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:25,480 Speaker 2: came to China to teach English. And if somebody died 196 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 2: of accidentals like excessive drinking. That was no non news, 197 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:33,200 Speaker 2: and then the state controlled media never reported. 198 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:37,320 Speaker 3: So this happens in mid November of twenty eleven. What 199 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:40,440 Speaker 3: is the next thing that happens when we realized that 200 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 3: this was not somebody who drank himself to death. 201 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:47,400 Speaker 2: In February right after Chinese New Year? You know Chinese 202 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:50,480 Speaker 2: New Year happened that year two thousand, Well happened in 203 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:54,160 Speaker 2: late January. So right after Chinese New Year, the very 204 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 2: powerful police chief who was in charge of investigation, suddenly 205 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:03,840 Speaker 2: he lost his job and then he was removed from 206 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 2: his place. They said he would become the deputy mayor. 207 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 2: And later on they said he suffered a lot of 208 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:15,080 Speaker 2: stress because he was receiving a kind of vacational style treatment. 209 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 2: So become a joke, said, what happened to the police 210 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:21,040 Speaker 2: chief who was so powerful? He was a police He 211 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:25,120 Speaker 2: established himself as one of the crime fighters. He came 212 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:28,480 Speaker 2: from a different city in two thousand and seven to 213 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:31,760 Speaker 2: assist the party secretary or the mayor of chung Kin, 214 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:36,440 Speaker 2: and then he within a few years he estabbed himself 215 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:39,560 Speaker 2: up the true crime fighter. He arrested more than five 216 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 2: thousand people prosecuted them for being involved in an organized crime, 217 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:48,319 Speaker 2: and he was very, very famous. And suddenly in February 218 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:51,600 Speaker 2: two thousand and twelve he lost his job. People couldn't 219 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 2: figure out what was the reason. And then they said 220 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 2: he was and a lot of stress because it's so 221 00:12:57,480 --> 00:12:59,600 Speaker 2: much of an anti crime work. 222 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 4: His mental health was affected, so it. 223 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:05,199 Speaker 2: Costs a little bit of distir That's how my co 224 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:08,480 Speaker 2: author of the book found out. We found out. We 225 00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:11,960 Speaker 2: realized it was a little pretty intriguing what happened. And 226 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:16,280 Speaker 2: then a few days later and then some day on 227 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 2: social media started to say who lived near the American 228 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:24,160 Speaker 2: embassy in Sutram Province. It's about twenty kilometers away in 229 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 2: another city where the American constule was based. People suddenly 230 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 2: realized there was a lot of cars surrounding an American embassy. 231 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:36,360 Speaker 2: Was there, VIP coming, they're welcoming. And also this was 232 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:39,319 Speaker 2: a week before the Chinese Vice president was supposed to 233 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:42,760 Speaker 2: go to visit the US, so the US China relationship 234 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:45,559 Speaker 2: was at the focal point. Everybody was very sised about 235 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:48,040 Speaker 2: the issue. This what's happened to the American constule? 236 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:48,559 Speaker 4: They there? 237 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:53,679 Speaker 2: And then that night somebody said, the police chief has 238 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 2: defected and escaped to the American embassy to seek for 239 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:03,720 Speaker 2: political asylum. Oh that's exactly the reaction a lot of people, 240 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 2: they said, what this guy who is famous for being 241 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:12,920 Speaker 2: his anti western, anti American rhetoric, and he's very on 242 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:15,959 Speaker 2: the leftist side, and you know, how could this anti 243 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 2: American police chief in China ended up in the American embassy. 244 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 2: So that caused a huge skir and after he got 245 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 2: in and then the party chief or the mayor of 246 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:33,640 Speaker 2: tun King got so panicky, so he sent troops over 247 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:36,680 Speaker 2: and tried to kidnap him and try to bring him 248 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:40,640 Speaker 2: out of the American embassy. And then the news reached Beijing, 249 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:44,200 Speaker 2: the capital city, and the central government they heard about this. 250 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:48,080 Speaker 2: They were so embarrassed because if a local government sent 251 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:51,600 Speaker 2: troops to kidnap somebody from the American embassy, that's a 252 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:55,800 Speaker 2: violation of international law. So they end up sending troops 253 00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:59,040 Speaker 2: over to the American embassy. So that night, so the 254 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 2: American embassy, the marine troops were ready to fight, and 255 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 2: then the Chinese provincial troops surrounding the American embassy, and 256 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:09,600 Speaker 2: then the government central governments and the troops start worrying 257 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 2: that the provincial government was going to take over the 258 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 2: American counsulate. 259 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 4: So because this tension going on, they said what is happening? 260 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 4: That caused the whole chaos there. 261 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:22,840 Speaker 2: And then the next day you start to leak out 262 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 2: saying that this police chief had information about the death 263 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:33,280 Speaker 2: of the British businessman Neil Haywood. And then gradually you 264 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 2: sleaked out as this police chief suspected or accused the 265 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 2: wife of the party chief, Chang Ching or the mayor 266 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:45,960 Speaker 2: of chang Jing, of murdering this British businessman. And then 267 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:50,040 Speaker 2: he was seeking political asylum because he was worried that 268 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 2: he had the information and the party chief was going 269 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 2: to send people to assassinate him, to kill him. That's 270 00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 2: why he ran to the American embassy. And then the 271 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 2: American officials there they were put in the dilemma because 272 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 2: on the one hand, they really want to maintain good 273 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:09,240 Speaker 2: relations with China, because that was a week before the 274 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:11,960 Speaker 2: Chinese vice president, who was supposed to be the Crown 275 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 2: Prince who was going to take over China seven months later, 276 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 2: he was visiting the US. So by the those days 277 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 2: he was the vice president, he is supposed to knew 278 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:26,119 Speaker 2: China very well. So they briefed the Chinese US ambassador 279 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 2: to China. They briefed Hillary Clinton for the suburb of States. 280 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 2: So they had an emergency meeting, and they decided that 281 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:38,400 Speaker 2: this police chief was probably didn't have too much valuable information, 282 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:42,120 Speaker 2: who was probably not of no value. So they decided 283 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 2: to pander to the Chinese request. 284 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 4: So they gave him up. 285 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 2: So he was released from the American American compassion turned 286 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:55,800 Speaker 2: him down. They gave him to the Chinese government. 287 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:04,119 Speaker 3: I need a very small asylum seekers one oh one. 288 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:09,320 Speaker 3: He can show up to the American consulate in China, 289 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 3: in a Chinese city and say I need asylum. 290 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:12,679 Speaker 1: And what does he do? 291 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 3: He pleads his case and if they say yes, what 292 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:17,879 Speaker 3: happens they escort him to the United States or what 293 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:20,919 Speaker 3: ends up happening with that case if they say yes. 294 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:24,080 Speaker 4: So let me walk back a little bit. The police chief. 295 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 2: Later it turned out that he was removed from his position. 296 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:31,119 Speaker 2: He realized that his life was going to be in 297 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:34,640 Speaker 2: danger by the police chief was gone to kill him. 298 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:38,199 Speaker 2: So because when each time they claimed somebody may have 299 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:41,400 Speaker 2: mental health issues, that's a sign that you couldn't die. 300 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 3: Wait, what so you're saying when they say the person 301 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:48,240 Speaker 3: of some importance or controversy has mental health issues, the 302 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:50,400 Speaker 3: next step is like they disappear or they go into 303 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:51,439 Speaker 3: an asylum or something. 304 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:52,120 Speaker 4: Yeah. 305 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:57,159 Speaker 2: The thing is, if you reports lately about Russia and China, 306 00:17:57,640 --> 00:17:59,359 Speaker 2: you see a lot of people they say so and 307 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:03,399 Speaker 2: so suicide jumped from his building because for years he 308 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 2: had mental health issues, were struggling. 309 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:08,800 Speaker 4: With the depression. So a lot of the mysterious deeff. 310 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:13,000 Speaker 2: So the police ship was worried that he could be 311 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 2: pushed down the building or could be murdered. They would 312 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:20,399 Speaker 2: say he had mental health issues. He committed suicide, so 313 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 2: that was he's worried that his life was in danger. 314 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:24,959 Speaker 4: So he evaded. 315 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 2: He was put under house arrest in a way, and 316 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 2: then the police, they actually planted a lot of policemen 317 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 2: year his residents. Somehow he evaded the police. Some people 318 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 2: say that he dressed up by like an old woman 319 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:41,119 Speaker 2: and then gradually left his compound and then he called 320 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:45,480 Speaker 2: another of his uhs previous bornis and somebody had the 321 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:48,439 Speaker 2: suv there waited for him, and they drove him to 322 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:52,880 Speaker 2: another city to the American consulate, and then he called 323 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 2: the American consulate or he has his friend called the 324 00:18:56,000 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 2: American consulate saying that he had something important. He wanted 325 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:05,120 Speaker 2: to see the consul general of the consulate, saying that 326 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:08,120 Speaker 2: there was some anti terrorist information he wanted to share 327 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:11,439 Speaker 2: with Americans. Since he was the police chief of the 328 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:14,800 Speaker 2: city and the American consulate, I'm sure they must have 329 00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:16,120 Speaker 2: opened the door to him. 330 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:17,480 Speaker 4: They let him in. 331 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:21,480 Speaker 2: There's information, saying they carried a suitcase of some of 332 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:24,120 Speaker 2: the documents relating to the murder of Neil Haywood. 333 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:27,240 Speaker 4: Some of that evidence he carried. He told the American. 334 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:31,199 Speaker 2: Officials there, said, I have information relating to the murder 335 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 2: of a British prisons man. 336 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 4: And also I have also. 337 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:39,360 Speaker 2: Information relating to the party chief of our city. And 338 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 2: I'm si complete asylum. And then they since he was 339 00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 2: such a heightened tension, they said he was incoherent, he 340 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 2: was agitated. 341 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:50,880 Speaker 4: But then they sent him the room. They immediately send the. 342 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:53,960 Speaker 2: Cable to Gary Locke, who was the US and bestor 343 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 2: of China. They said, please come back, and then they 344 00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:01,399 Speaker 2: interviewed him and then the report or the State Department, 345 00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:05,960 Speaker 2: and they realized that he probably wasn't valuable enough. And 346 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:10,440 Speaker 2: then he wasn't qualified to be a political refugee. And ironically, 347 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:14,119 Speaker 2: in the old days, it's American Chinese dissidents who would 348 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:17,680 Speaker 2: go to run to the American embassy or the consulate 349 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:21,639 Speaker 2: to see political asylum. And this guy is the police chief. 350 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:24,520 Speaker 2: People like the reaction you had. He said, what he's 351 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:27,240 Speaker 2: running for a lot of times people said, this is 352 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:30,240 Speaker 2: a rumor. He could have gone to the asylum. He 353 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:33,439 Speaker 2: must have gone to the American consulate to discuss some 354 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:35,600 Speaker 2: important matters with the American officials. 355 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:39,160 Speaker 4: But later on and it was true. And then when the. 356 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:42,119 Speaker 2: Party chief heard about it, he was desperate. He knew 357 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:43,840 Speaker 2: that he was going to be in trouble, so he 358 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:46,320 Speaker 2: sent the troops to the American embassy. They had the 359 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:51,040 Speaker 2: different negotiations, and then after thirty six hours of the 360 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:54,960 Speaker 2: standoffs and the Americans let him go, and then he 361 00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:58,680 Speaker 2: was handed over not to the provincial government but to 362 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:02,159 Speaker 2: the central government. The troops spent outer layer yeah to 363 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:05,920 Speaker 2: the representative there, and then they flew him to Beijing 364 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:10,480 Speaker 2: for interrogation. So that's the big instant milestone. And then 365 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:14,359 Speaker 2: people start to understand that the reason he escaped to 366 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:18,320 Speaker 2: the American embassy is because Neil Heywood the death, so 367 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:21,200 Speaker 2: people start to check look up and then I think 368 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 2: the British government also was alerted of this and they 369 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:26,440 Speaker 2: also requested investigation. 370 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:29,720 Speaker 3: I love the way that people are thinking, like they're 371 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 3: putting together the pieces. This must be the police chief 372 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 3: who is far left and is anti American, anti Western, 373 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:39,159 Speaker 3: and he says, save me. And you said, you know 374 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:43,720 Speaker 3: that people were connecting it to Neil Heywood in his death, 375 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:48,480 Speaker 3: which was questionable this businessman. But who are the people. 376 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:51,159 Speaker 3: It's not the media, right because the media is controlled 377 00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:52,160 Speaker 3: by the Chinese government. 378 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 4: That's a great question. 379 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:58,160 Speaker 2: Before he left for the American Embassy, the Peace Chief Wan, 380 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:02,440 Speaker 2: he prepared four cell phones with a different phone card, 381 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:03,240 Speaker 2: the same card. 382 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:05,680 Speaker 4: He prepared four cell phones. 383 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 2: He typed the different messages in case, he said, in 384 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:13,600 Speaker 2: case I'm killed or if I something happened. He gave 385 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:17,920 Speaker 2: the cell phones to his friends and he said, will 386 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:21,919 Speaker 2: you hear that either something I'm caught or news of 387 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:25,719 Speaker 2: my death or something. Please send the message over to 388 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 2: the different chat groups. And then so the fourth phones, 389 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:33,560 Speaker 2: the first message was like please chief one escape to 390 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:34,440 Speaker 2: the American embassy. 391 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:37,640 Speaker 4: Because he knew so much about the murder of the British. 392 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 2: Businessman, and then another message saying that the party chief 393 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:44,960 Speaker 2: of chung Jin the city, he's very corrupt, he invents 394 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:47,120 Speaker 2: a lot of funds. And then the police knew about it. 395 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:50,159 Speaker 2: And the third some messages saying that the wife of 396 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:53,680 Speaker 2: the police chief murdered Neil Heywood. You know this stuff 397 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:56,960 Speaker 2: they set out and when the government because by the 398 00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:59,360 Speaker 2: time you sent out to the chat group and by 399 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:02,200 Speaker 2: the time censors they found it, there was a period 400 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:05,520 Speaker 2: of time during this time already spread very widely. But 401 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 2: this was all planned by the police before he entered 402 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:11,720 Speaker 2: the American and consumate there. 403 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:15,120 Speaker 3: But isn't all of that still like I know, there's 404 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:18,520 Speaker 3: the Chinese version of Twitter, right, isn't that all still 405 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:22,000 Speaker 3: very tightly controlled chat rooms too? Are they not all 406 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:24,200 Speaker 3: still tightly controlled by the Chinese government? Or is there 407 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:26,399 Speaker 3: some underground thing that I don't know about? 408 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:30,000 Speaker 2: In those days, micro crops is similar to our Twitter, 409 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:33,400 Speaker 2: it would call micro blogs plot It was controlled by 410 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 2: the government, but sometimes they cannot control it all beca 411 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,120 Speaker 2: it's such a big country. It was so in those 412 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 2: at the early age that the two thousand was not 413 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:45,760 Speaker 2: as advanced as here like right now, China has the AI, 414 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:49,440 Speaker 2: all the different control mechanisms, and there was certain kind 415 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:52,640 Speaker 2: of freedom. People use firewalls, they can use the access, 416 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:55,560 Speaker 2: they could ease the access Twitter, and also we were 417 00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 2: sometimes they send out messages and then the government the 418 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:01,679 Speaker 2: censors found out going to delete it right away. But 419 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:05,080 Speaker 2: between the time the government census found out there was 420 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:07,639 Speaker 2: like a couple of hours. It is already there. People 421 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:11,480 Speaker 2: already spread very very The new spread very fast. And 422 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:14,640 Speaker 2: that was the first time. Previously I would say that 423 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:17,639 Speaker 2: we hear or staying in the West right if something 424 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 2: happened in China, even some of the senior officials died, 425 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,720 Speaker 2: we might probably hear about it a week later or 426 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:26,480 Speaker 2: two weeks later. But this is the first time because 427 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 2: the interconnection world, we are and almost like simultaneous with 428 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:36,320 Speaker 2: watching live like when the microblocks they sent out the 429 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,680 Speaker 2: messages about Neil Heywood might have been killed by the 430 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:42,920 Speaker 2: wife of the party chief, and immediately overseas we knew 431 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:46,600 Speaker 2: it simultaneously too, So that's how we were able to 432 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:49,560 Speaker 2: jump on the story right away. And then the overseas 433 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 2: media played a huge role in spreading the news to 434 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 2: when they deleted the block. But the overseas media picked 435 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 2: up right away, like some of the Chinese language media 436 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,480 Speaker 2: out like that my co author he ran, and then 437 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:06,480 Speaker 2: some of the English media, that Times, the Financial Times, 438 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 2: New York Times, War Street Journal, and they had a 439 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:11,200 Speaker 2: lot of reporters who are very well. 440 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:13,119 Speaker 4: Trained in Chinese language. 441 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 2: And then they were so fast too, so this whole thing, 442 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:21,000 Speaker 2: it just played out simultaneously and were able to watch it. 443 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:25,399 Speaker 2: So that's the second milestone event, the defection of the 444 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:29,720 Speaker 2: police chief, and also triggered people's interests in the Nilhi death, 445 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:32,439 Speaker 2: and so this case resurfaced again. 446 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:36,840 Speaker 3: So let's go back to February of twenty twelve. So 447 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 3: the police chief has asked for asylum. The US says no, 448 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:44,320 Speaker 3: They've turned it over to the Chinese government, not the 449 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:48,240 Speaker 3: political chiefs, the mayor's troops, but the Chinese government, and 450 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:51,480 Speaker 3: the police chief is brought in where Beijing or someplace 451 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:52,560 Speaker 3: for interrogation. 452 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:57,560 Speaker 2: Yes, the police chief was brought into Beijing for interrogation. 453 00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:01,440 Speaker 2: They wanted to protect him because he held very important 454 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:06,680 Speaker 2: information about the party Chip toun Kin. So that's how 455 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:11,720 Speaker 2: this all started. And then once this whole thing happened, 456 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:16,040 Speaker 2: and even though China tried very much to control information, 457 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:19,720 Speaker 2: control the flow of information, and then you spread very 458 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:23,719 Speaker 2: very quickly. And then the Chinese media was forced to 459 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:27,159 Speaker 2: publicize it. They just say the police chief has escaped 460 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:32,200 Speaker 2: to the American counsulate. But then the Chinese government decided 461 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:35,560 Speaker 2: now to do anything because it was right before a 462 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:39,640 Speaker 2: very important conference in China in March, so they did 463 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:42,199 Speaker 2: not want to disturb peace. And then they want this 464 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 2: conference to go on. And then party chief, they are 465 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:49,680 Speaker 2: very they all delegates to the the legislative conference in March, 466 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:53,040 Speaker 2: the Chinese legislature they meet once a year for a 467 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:54,280 Speaker 2: couple of weeks in Beijing. 468 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:56,080 Speaker 4: So they decided now to do it. 469 00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 2: But then the media, especially the international media, who were 470 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:03,240 Speaker 2: basing beating, They kept asking. They wanted to show what 471 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:06,600 Speaker 2: the police chief allowed with true they kept asking, but 472 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:10,879 Speaker 2: the Chinese media refused to our Chinese officials refused to 473 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:15,240 Speaker 2: answer the question. And also because twenty twelve I told 474 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 2: you before, twenty twelve is a big year for China's 475 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 2: succession plan. Every four years, the Chinese president is like 476 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:25,680 Speaker 2: they need to have a new croup. Leaders are taken 477 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:29,800 Speaker 2: over and in China it's supposed to be a collective leadership. 478 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:33,560 Speaker 2: So the top echelon of the organization is called the 479 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:35,600 Speaker 2: Pola Buier Standing Committee. 480 00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:38,960 Speaker 4: This is a group of seven senior leaders. 481 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:43,280 Speaker 2: And then they formed the Standing Committee of the Communist Party, 482 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:47,280 Speaker 2: and then the president is the top and then controls 483 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:50,800 Speaker 2: this committee. So there was taught that the party chief 484 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:55,119 Speaker 2: might be a candidate for the Poler Buller Standing Committee. 485 00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 2: So people start to say, oh, is this police chief defection. 486 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 2: It's going to affect his ascension, It's going to affect 487 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:07,879 Speaker 2: his political career. And then the Chinese government totally shout 488 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:10,159 Speaker 2: off the rumor, saying it's a rumor. And then this 489 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 2: defection is a totally isolated incident and then nothing is 490 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:20,760 Speaker 2: going to happen. And then suddenly back in March and 491 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:25,080 Speaker 2: they made an announcement that they decide to remove the party 492 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:29,040 Speaker 2: chief from his post. And then in April they officially 493 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 2: announced that he and his wife they were involved in 494 00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:35,679 Speaker 2: the murder. They starts in the murder of British businessman 495 00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:36,520 Speaker 2: Neil Heywood. 496 00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:39,080 Speaker 3: Well, now this is intriguing because now I want to 497 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:41,440 Speaker 3: know what they say. The motive is, why would okay, 498 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:44,120 Speaker 3: and let's talk about their names. So do I call 499 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:46,240 Speaker 3: him Bow and how do I say her name? 500 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:50,920 Speaker 2: Ball is the name of the former party chief Tun 501 00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:55,000 Speaker 2: King Bo. Yeah, and his wife's name is good g U. 502 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 2: You asked the right exactly the right question. After Ball 503 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:03,560 Speaker 2: and they were under arrest and the party said they're 504 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:07,080 Speaker 2: going to do a serious investigation. People start to ask 505 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:10,920 Speaker 2: why do they want to kill Neil Heyward? Who is 506 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:15,360 Speaker 2: Neil Hayward? And what is the connection? What prompts the 507 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:20,160 Speaker 2: party chief's wife, this prominent family, she has everything she wanted. 508 00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:24,240 Speaker 2: Why did she want to kill a British businessman? So 509 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:27,080 Speaker 2: this is the whole as the party. Even though the 510 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:31,200 Speaker 2: party controls the flow of information, and then a lot 511 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:34,920 Speaker 2: of people start to information start to leak out. The 512 00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:39,240 Speaker 2: leakers of the information they have different motives too, because first, 513 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:43,720 Speaker 2: previously China is impossible because there's no transparison in the 514 00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 2: Chinese government, impossible to know what is happening. 515 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:48,080 Speaker 4: But then a lot of. 516 00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:52,400 Speaker 2: People within the party who feel threatened by the party 517 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:53,720 Speaker 2: chiefs ascension. 518 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:57,160 Speaker 4: They were we call it their political opponents. 519 00:29:57,480 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 2: They want to tarnish his reputation, they want to end 520 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:04,920 Speaker 2: his chances for being promoted, so they start to leak 521 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:10,200 Speaker 2: information about what was really happening. That's how my co 522 00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 2: author was in New York. He ran the Chinese media 523 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:17,120 Speaker 2: company and also publishing house. A lot of different sources 524 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:20,840 Speaker 2: start to call him and start to explain the question 525 00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:24,520 Speaker 2: you just raised. Who was Neil Hayward and why did 526 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:28,440 Speaker 2: grule the party? Chip's wife want to kill him. During 527 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:32,040 Speaker 2: that the next six or seven month and we start 528 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:35,720 Speaker 2: to get this NonStop, like the feeding with the information, 529 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:39,600 Speaker 2: were able to sit together a picture of what happened. 530 00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:41,800 Speaker 4: It turned out that Neil. 531 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:46,320 Speaker 2: Hayward he himself when he came to China to teach English, 532 00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:49,600 Speaker 2: and when he was in Dallian. I told you that 533 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:52,080 Speaker 2: he ended in the city in the coastal city in 534 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:56,320 Speaker 2: northeastern part of China. At that time, Wall was the 535 00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 2: mayor of Dahlian and his wife lived in that city 536 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:02,760 Speaker 2: and they they were very prominent couples in the city 537 00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:05,600 Speaker 2: because they were the children of the senior commings leaders. 538 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,440 Speaker 4: So nil he Would was also in the city. 539 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:11,800 Speaker 2: He heard about them, and then eventually when he heard 540 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 2: that Ball and his wife, they send their son to 541 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:18,680 Speaker 2: study in Herold in the UK. It was the same 542 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:21,880 Speaker 2: school that Nil hey Would he attended his alma major. 543 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:26,840 Speaker 2: So he wrote a letter to the couple saying that 544 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:29,160 Speaker 2: I'm also a graduate from. 545 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:30,760 Speaker 4: There, I know UK very well. 546 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:34,120 Speaker 2: I'm willing to take care of your son if you 547 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:39,200 Speaker 2: needed help. So that's how he got connected with the 548 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 2: Ball family. So when when their son went to study 549 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:46,760 Speaker 2: in the UK, the wife who Kaili, went to accompany 550 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:47,360 Speaker 2: her son. 551 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:48,800 Speaker 4: They stayed in London. 552 00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:51,440 Speaker 2: Nil he would met them a couple of times, and 553 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:54,560 Speaker 2: then they became really good friends. So Nil he would 554 00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:56,800 Speaker 2: told the wife, you can go back to China. I'll 555 00:31:56,800 --> 00:32:00,320 Speaker 2: be here and be the guardian. And then so before 556 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:03,720 Speaker 2: he left, she offered him an old car, an expensive car, 557 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:06,400 Speaker 2: but they can drive a sound around during the weekend. 558 00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:10,320 Speaker 2: And also when her son needed money, and then Neil 559 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:14,440 Speaker 2: Heywood was the middle person to wire money to the 560 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:18,480 Speaker 2: UK because you know it could be more risky if 561 00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:22,480 Speaker 2: the official they wire money oversees it could be perceived 562 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:23,240 Speaker 2: as scandalous. 563 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,800 Speaker 3: So I have two questions. So first will be what 564 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:30,000 Speaker 3: was Neil Haywood's motivation to do any of this? Was 565 00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:33,480 Speaker 3: he being paid? Why would he befriend them? Certainly not 566 00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:34,680 Speaker 3: to just be helpful. 567 00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:38,280 Speaker 2: In China, is they call connections once you have the 568 00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:42,160 Speaker 2: political connections into this powerful family and then you can 569 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:45,240 Speaker 2: find more opportunities in the future. For example, he could 570 00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:48,720 Speaker 2: tell the other Western businessman who want to do business 571 00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:51,960 Speaker 2: in China and say, I have this powerful connection. I'm 572 00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:55,280 Speaker 2: Groad friends with the Bull family, and then you know 573 00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,040 Speaker 2: it's a political capital. He wanted to take vantage drops 574 00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:01,840 Speaker 2: it gradually start to who got his way into the 575 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:03,200 Speaker 2: Boy family guard their trust. 576 00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:06,040 Speaker 4: And then when he returned. 577 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:10,280 Speaker 2: To Dahlia, he started a business consulting firm and used 578 00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:14,719 Speaker 2: the connections to get projects from the politicians there, and 579 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:18,880 Speaker 2: then he started to prosper and then their connection get 580 00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:23,200 Speaker 2: closer and closer, and then Ball and his wife started 581 00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:26,960 Speaker 2: to get Neil. He would involved in some of the 582 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:32,640 Speaker 2: major contracts. For example, major wealthy businessmen wanted to build 583 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:38,160 Speaker 2: a whole some luxury bush style town homes or resorts, 584 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:40,360 Speaker 2: and then they want Neil to be involved in this. 585 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:43,240 Speaker 2: Neil he would say, oh, I can bring some wealthy 586 00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:47,520 Speaker 2: bush people here they can buy the luxury homes, or 587 00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:51,760 Speaker 2: I can you know, make connections with Western investors they 588 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:52,760 Speaker 2: can invest. 589 00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:55,720 Speaker 4: So it was a big, huge. 590 00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:59,479 Speaker 2: Construction projects and then Neil was involved for several years, 591 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:02,320 Speaker 2: but they after a couple of years he never brought 592 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 2: any wealthy British businessman who would want to go all 593 00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:09,359 Speaker 2: the way to tun Jing to Southwestern trying to invest there. 594 00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:12,200 Speaker 2: You know, I guess it was very tough tough sell. 595 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:15,439 Speaker 2: And also the other thing is during that time, boy, 596 00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:18,920 Speaker 2: she like realized this construction project could be a liability 597 00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:21,720 Speaker 2: because if people find out, they'll know that the party 598 00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:26,560 Speaker 2: chief is giving up this lucrative contract to his friends 599 00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:29,920 Speaker 2: and to his family members. So the party chief canceled 600 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:33,800 Speaker 2: the projects and Neil was initially promised twenty million dollars 601 00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:37,840 Speaker 2: if the projects work, if the construction projects went through, 602 00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:40,720 Speaker 2: but then it didn't go through. It fell through because 603 00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:43,960 Speaker 2: the government canceled the projects. He didn't get a single penny. 604 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:47,120 Speaker 2: And then after he worked for these several years and 605 00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:50,799 Speaker 2: then he got nothing, he got desperate. He had money problems, 606 00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:53,920 Speaker 2: so he wanted to get money. He said, at least 607 00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:56,520 Speaker 2: you should compensate me for the time I put in there. 608 00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:59,359 Speaker 2: So he tried to pressure Gool but they didn't want 609 00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:02,240 Speaker 2: to give him money. They felt like he didn't contribute anything. Also, 610 00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:05,719 Speaker 2: this project was killed right there was the information saying 611 00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:09,279 Speaker 2: that he went to travel to London and then he 612 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:11,880 Speaker 2: knew that he always wired money to the Sun. They 613 00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:15,080 Speaker 2: overseas assets was controlled by the Sun. He went there 614 00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:17,680 Speaker 2: to talk to the Sun, saying that you need to 615 00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:18,400 Speaker 2: pay me the money. 616 00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:19,840 Speaker 4: The Sun rejected, Oh. 617 00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:22,200 Speaker 1: Wow, how much money were they sending this kid? 618 00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:25,600 Speaker 2: We cannot verify the information. Some of they said twenty 619 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:29,640 Speaker 2: million dollars, thirty million dollars, you know it's that. But yes, 620 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:32,640 Speaker 2: you see a lot of the wealthy Chinese and the 621 00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:36,200 Speaker 2: senior governor officials during the past two decades, they siffned 622 00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:39,160 Speaker 2: a lot of money out to pick because for they 623 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:41,480 Speaker 2: felt like it was not stable in China. A lot 624 00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:44,680 Speaker 2: of people they investled money and they want to transfer 625 00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:47,759 Speaker 2: overseas through different means. And there was a lot of 626 00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:51,840 Speaker 2: money flown to the West or to the neighboring countries. 627 00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:56,520 Speaker 2: So this was just an example, and he would supposed 628 00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:58,000 Speaker 2: to go out all the receipt he said. 629 00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:00,799 Speaker 4: He started to threaten the kid, saying. 630 00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:03,279 Speaker 2: If you don't pay the money out of all this 631 00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:06,680 Speaker 2: event to show about how you guys try to smuggle 632 00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:10,440 Speaker 2: money overseas. And then one day it was supposedly saying 633 00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:14,080 Speaker 2: that he held Both's son against his will in the 634 00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:18,000 Speaker 2: apartment for a couple of hours trying to get money 635 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:21,440 Speaker 2: out of him. So he called his mother and then 636 00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:22,960 Speaker 2: told her about it. 637 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:24,960 Speaker 1: And that I'm sure did not she didn must not 638 00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:26,080 Speaker 1: have reacted well. 639 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:30,040 Speaker 2: To that exactly. So the mother got desperate. She's worried. 640 00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:32,239 Speaker 2: She said, oh my god, this Neil Heywood is going 641 00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:36,160 Speaker 2: to try to kill my son. So she became so desperate. 642 00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:38,680 Speaker 2: At that time, she became friends with the party chief 643 00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:42,160 Speaker 2: and she consulted with party ship, say what are we 644 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:44,600 Speaker 2: going to do about this case? How do we do 645 00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:47,719 Speaker 2: the threat? So the party chief said, there's a couple 646 00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:50,120 Speaker 2: of ways we can do it. We can lure him 647 00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:53,520 Speaker 2: out of Beijing to come to Chunking, and we can 648 00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:57,080 Speaker 2: probably use a drug ring, saying that he's a drug 649 00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:01,360 Speaker 2: ring leader of foreign foreigners selling drugs in in China 650 00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:04,319 Speaker 2: were China had very tough drug laws. So we can 651 00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:06,799 Speaker 2: do We can kill him in a shootout and then 652 00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:10,560 Speaker 2: plan some drugs in there. But then they realized he 653 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:14,400 Speaker 2: would still a British businessman if we do this drug operations, 654 00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:18,680 Speaker 2: if you cause an international incident, So they concouted the 655 00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:21,799 Speaker 2: plots and maybe that's a good idea to get him 656 00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:26,359 Speaker 2: into Chunking and then to poison him and they kill him. 657 00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:29,640 Speaker 2: And also they felt like it's less risky for a 658 00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:33,520 Speaker 2: couple of reasons. It's first except drinking, and then there 659 00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:36,320 Speaker 2: was no evidence he could have died of a heart attack. 660 00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:39,440 Speaker 2: The other thing is there was suspicion that Neil Haywood 661 00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:43,880 Speaker 2: might have been worked for six and then also he 662 00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:46,880 Speaker 2: sometimes played up the mystery and it was said that 663 00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:51,279 Speaker 2: his license plate with double seven or something. So he 664 00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:55,080 Speaker 2: was under the surveilance of the Chinese government as well. 665 00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:59,000 Speaker 2: So the police chiefs rush now is that since he 666 00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:02,279 Speaker 2: was a British spy, if we killed him quietly, right, 667 00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:04,560 Speaker 2: the British probably won't make a big issue out of 668 00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:06,480 Speaker 2: it because they didn't want they did not want to 669 00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:09,880 Speaker 2: reveal his true identity. And also the Chinese government, the 670 00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:12,640 Speaker 2: central government, they probably wanted there too because they suspect 671 00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:16,200 Speaker 2: it could be a British spy. So they concoted this plan. 672 00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:19,279 Speaker 2: But the wife or the police, sheef that she has 673 00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:23,280 Speaker 2: to do it herself. So the plan was on February thirteenth, 674 00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:28,560 Speaker 2: so Gool called Neil Heywood and invited him to toung 675 00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:32,839 Speaker 2: Qing and bought him first class airline tickets. Invite him 676 00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:36,080 Speaker 2: to tong Qin, saying I have some important business deal 677 00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:40,279 Speaker 2: to discuss with you. She also sent her driver was 678 00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:44,120 Speaker 2: a retired military man, sent her driver to pick up 679 00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:47,799 Speaker 2: Neil Heywood in Beijing. So they came together to toung 680 00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:51,960 Speaker 2: Qing and then they put him up in this hotel 681 00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:56,880 Speaker 2: called the English version of the hotel called Lucky Holiday Hotel. 682 00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:02,400 Speaker 2: This hotel is located on top of mountain, secluded area 683 00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:08,000 Speaker 2: and they have different individuals British style the two story villas, 684 00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:10,320 Speaker 2: and they put him up in a room called sixteen 685 00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:14,840 Speaker 2: oh five. So I actually visited the hotel while researching 686 00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:18,480 Speaker 2: for my book. It's very secluded and if something happened, 687 00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:21,680 Speaker 2: nobody will know. It's because of the tree tree lined streets, 688 00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:26,080 Speaker 2: and then each villa has some distance from it's kind 689 00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:28,880 Speaker 2: of far away from the others. It's the perfect crime scene. 690 00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:32,000 Speaker 2: So they they brought him over and they drove him 691 00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:35,200 Speaker 2: on their way to see Neil Haywood, who bought a 692 00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:38,239 Speaker 2: bottle of the expensive I think they call the Royal 693 00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:42,480 Speaker 2: Salute whiskey. And then they brought the whiskey, and then 694 00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:46,640 Speaker 2: they brought some of the muscle relaxant, and then some 695 00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:51,360 Speaker 2: rat poisoning which contains cyanide. And then they also brought 696 00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:55,560 Speaker 2: some herbal ecstasy, some of the crystal map. They brought 697 00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:58,319 Speaker 2: this one they want to spread near the crime scene 698 00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:00,719 Speaker 2: to show that as if he had the rock overdose 699 00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:05,080 Speaker 2: or drink over drinking, according to the core papers. They 700 00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:08,799 Speaker 2: got to the hotel, they started drinking, and then in 701 00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:11,840 Speaker 2: China there is a very common practice and to force 702 00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:16,000 Speaker 2: your guests to drink. Oh, drink this bottom up, that's common. Yeah, 703 00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:18,920 Speaker 2: bottom up. It's supposed to be a good get of 704 00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:22,400 Speaker 2: good will. It bottom up, and sometimes it's hard to 705 00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:24,920 Speaker 2: turn it. Always tell people when you go there, they 706 00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:26,880 Speaker 2: ask if you can't drink too much? Just said I 707 00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:29,680 Speaker 2: don't drink. But they normally it's a friendly gesture. Oh 708 00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:33,600 Speaker 2: come out, drink white, you'l drink whine. So soon, very quickly. 709 00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:37,880 Speaker 2: Neil Hay would obviously had a low alcohol tolerance, so 710 00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:41,080 Speaker 2: very quickly. He almost passed out once he went to 711 00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:44,840 Speaker 2: the bathroom to vomit, and they immediately they put the 712 00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:48,360 Speaker 2: mess in a Soi shale pad and then they fed 713 00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:52,360 Speaker 2: him the medicine. Also because they mixed the muscle relaxing 714 00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:55,680 Speaker 2: in the alcohol, he's probably by that time. It was 715 00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:59,480 Speaker 2: pretty helpless at the time, they fed the red poison 716 00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:04,120 Speaker 2: into a mouth, and then when he started to have 717 00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:07,880 Speaker 2: different reactions, and then they tried to control him. And 718 00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:11,200 Speaker 2: then once they thought he was he died or something, 719 00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:14,560 Speaker 2: so they left and then pulled the Donati sturb side 720 00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:17,080 Speaker 2: on and then they left the villa. 721 00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:19,360 Speaker 4: So after she left. 722 00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:23,320 Speaker 2: The villa, and then she called the police chief right away, 723 00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:27,080 Speaker 2: she said, I just did it. And then the police 724 00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:29,719 Speaker 2: chief said, don't worry about it, I'll take care of it. 725 00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:33,360 Speaker 2: They waited till the hotel staff member found the bodies, 726 00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:36,520 Speaker 2: so the police chief said, took police officers there. They 727 00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:40,280 Speaker 2: took some blood samples quietly but without telling the family everything, 728 00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:43,680 Speaker 2: and then they took two blood samples and then they 729 00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:47,480 Speaker 2: had his body cruminated, so they made it as if 730 00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:48,960 Speaker 2: he died of excessive drinking. 731 00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:51,640 Speaker 3: So I know you can't get into the mind of 732 00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:55,800 Speaker 3: Neil Heywood, but I don't understand why he would after 733 00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:59,920 Speaker 3: threatening this couple's son, you know, trying to exhort my 734 00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:03,080 Speaker 3: out of them or whatever, why would he think it 735 00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:07,560 Speaker 3: was a good idea to accept an invitation from Goo. 736 00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:10,960 Speaker 3: And I assume Bo signed off on all of this Also, 737 00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:13,600 Speaker 3: I mean, he knew that they were very upset with him. 738 00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:16,120 Speaker 3: Why did he think that this was going to be okay? 739 00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:18,719 Speaker 2: I think that at first he knew Gool for a 740 00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:22,240 Speaker 2: long time, the kind of friends. Also, if the wife 741 00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:25,200 Speaker 2: of a party chief costs you to discuss a business meeting, 742 00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:28,319 Speaker 2: you cannot decline. If this, you know, he knew that 743 00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:31,040 Speaker 2: there was the only chance. He was probably still holding 744 00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:33,840 Speaker 2: to the hope that if he couldn't get money from 745 00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:36,680 Speaker 2: the other sources, right, maybe Goo was creating a new 746 00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:40,200 Speaker 2: projects so to pay him back in a different way. 747 00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:43,799 Speaker 2: I just think that he was desperate for money, even 748 00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:46,800 Speaker 2: though his friends later said he was seemed to be okay. 749 00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:50,800 Speaker 2: But I think in China, under those circumstances, the wife 750 00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:53,479 Speaker 2: of very powerful men they called you to say, could 751 00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:56,360 Speaker 2: you fly oward to Tung King too, we can discuss 752 00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:57,320 Speaker 2: some business deals. 753 00:42:57,600 --> 00:42:59,319 Speaker 4: There's no way he could turn it down. 754 00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:02,880 Speaker 2: But he was suspicious because he would would have thought 755 00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:07,040 Speaker 2: that the wife of this prominent politician in China would 756 00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:11,399 Speaker 2: have wanted to kill him. So that's the rational, That's 757 00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:14,879 Speaker 2: what we can only speculate on that. But regardless, he came, 758 00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:18,719 Speaker 2: and he even drank with the woman, and also with the. 759 00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:21,480 Speaker 4: Driver and then he was killed there. 760 00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:25,520 Speaker 2: And then a few days later the police chief took 761 00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:29,080 Speaker 2: care for it. Everything seemed to be okay, but Ghoul 762 00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:30,920 Speaker 2: became a little paranoid. 763 00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:33,319 Speaker 1: Well no kidding, I'm sure she was. 764 00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:34,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, he got the paranoid. 765 00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:37,960 Speaker 2: So he was worried that the police chief might have 766 00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:41,600 Speaker 2: some other evidence, so he wanted the police chief to 767 00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:46,160 Speaker 2: destroy the evidence. And then the police chief they brought 768 00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:49,600 Speaker 2: some of the police officers and brought some of the documents, 769 00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:52,960 Speaker 2: say we don't have copies here, I will destroy them 770 00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:55,480 Speaker 2: in front of you. But he actually made copies, but 771 00:43:55,560 --> 00:43:58,800 Speaker 2: he had them destroyed. At the same time, the police 772 00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:01,480 Speaker 2: chip had his own mode hips. Two of the things 773 00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:04,600 Speaker 2: that happened during that time. First, the police chief have 774 00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:08,680 Speaker 2: been transferred to chan Ching from a different city. Some 775 00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:12,040 Speaker 2: of his friends in that different city was under investigation. 776 00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:15,480 Speaker 2: And because he when he was in chan Ching, he 777 00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:18,960 Speaker 2: arrested a lot of people and put them in jail, 778 00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:22,320 Speaker 2: he made a lot of political enemies, so they wanted 779 00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:25,960 Speaker 2: to arrest his friends in another city. And then in retaliation, 780 00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:30,000 Speaker 2: so the police chief was asking the party chief, his 781 00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:33,520 Speaker 2: friend or Good's husband, Ball said, would you like to 782 00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:38,360 Speaker 2: help me resolve it to intervene and then so to 783 00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:42,319 Speaker 2: have my friends released. And Ball refused to do that 784 00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:44,600 Speaker 2: because he's not going to stick his head out for 785 00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:48,080 Speaker 2: some kind of his subordinates, right, and it was also 786 00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:51,680 Speaker 2: his political risk. He was his year to be elevated 787 00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:55,960 Speaker 2: to the highest governing body of China. Another thing is 788 00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:59,319 Speaker 2: he also wanted the party chief of changing to give 789 00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:03,160 Speaker 2: him a promote. He was loving for promotion, so he 790 00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:06,520 Speaker 2: thought now that he did a favor to the wife 791 00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:10,080 Speaker 2: of the party ship, he wanted payback, so he wanted 792 00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:13,160 Speaker 2: Good to lobby her husband to give him a promotional 793 00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:16,440 Speaker 2: to help him out, and then Goul did, but what 794 00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:19,960 Speaker 2: she turned her down, So the tensions started to build 795 00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:23,239 Speaker 2: right and also so the wife felt like he was 796 00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:24,200 Speaker 2: not able to help. 797 00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:24,640 Speaker 4: The police sheep. 798 00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:28,279 Speaker 2: He knew the police chip would try to retaliate, so 799 00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:31,759 Speaker 2: she became so paranoid she decided one day when the 800 00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:35,239 Speaker 2: police chief was in Beaging attending a conference, so she 801 00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:39,000 Speaker 2: went to his house, raiding his house trying to look 802 00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:42,000 Speaker 2: for evidence see if the police cheop was holding any 803 00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:45,560 Speaker 2: evidence against her, and then she intergated a lot of 804 00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:49,239 Speaker 2: people around him. So the police sheep felt like this 805 00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:54,040 Speaker 2: was getting out of control. So he decided to have 806 00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:55,560 Speaker 2: a conversation with. 807 00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:57,120 Speaker 4: Ball with the party chief. 808 00:45:57,560 --> 00:46:01,560 Speaker 2: He arranged the meeting with the party chief and then 809 00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:04,400 Speaker 2: first he asked the party chief to offer him a 810 00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:07,959 Speaker 2: promotion to help him, and the party ship turned it down. 811 00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:09,880 Speaker 2: And then he started to say, I just want you 812 00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:12,560 Speaker 2: to know that your wife is involved in a very 813 00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:16,239 Speaker 2: serious murder case of British business, Neil Haywood. And then 814 00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:19,920 Speaker 2: the party chief was very shocked, right he said come 815 00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:22,440 Speaker 2: back to me. I'll talk to you later, and then 816 00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:26,560 Speaker 2: he started doing a lot of investigations. He rounded up 817 00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:28,759 Speaker 2: the people who work for the plice chief try to 818 00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:31,759 Speaker 2: find out what was happening. And then we learned that 819 00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:34,960 Speaker 2: the police chief was secretly collecting a lot of negative 820 00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:38,200 Speaker 2: information about him, and he felt betrayed. 821 00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:39,719 Speaker 4: So the next. 822 00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:43,000 Speaker 2: Day when he came over, when the police chief came 823 00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:46,560 Speaker 2: over for a second meeting to discuss the murder of 824 00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:50,200 Speaker 2: good Kaili, and then the police chief brought this up 825 00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:54,480 Speaker 2: again and Ball became so angry that the police chip 826 00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:56,480 Speaker 2: hid this whole information from him. 827 00:46:56,760 --> 00:46:59,280 Speaker 4: He slapped the police chief across the face. 828 00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:05,200 Speaker 2: Was such a severe slap that only during setting court 829 00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:08,160 Speaker 2: that he had a lot on the corner of his mouth, 830 00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:10,400 Speaker 2: his ears have some food in the ears. 831 00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:11,360 Speaker 4: Was very severe. 832 00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:14,840 Speaker 2: And also in China, slapping somebody across his face is 833 00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:17,840 Speaker 2: considered a huge humilating blow. 834 00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:19,600 Speaker 4: This is to him. 835 00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:22,680 Speaker 2: He felt like he was so loyal to the party 836 00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:27,040 Speaker 2: chief for the past six seven years. He helped him 837 00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:29,839 Speaker 2: get rid of a lot of the political opponents. He 838 00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:32,920 Speaker 2: made so many enemies. You know, he felt wrong. He 839 00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:36,920 Speaker 2: was so mad. He just left. He decided to retaliate. 840 00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:41,200 Speaker 2: And also after the slap, the police chief announced the 841 00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:43,640 Speaker 2: resignation of him, just forced him out. 842 00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:46,920 Speaker 3: This is how the police chief eventually ends up at 843 00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:49,239 Speaker 3: the American consulate exactly. 844 00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:53,680 Speaker 2: And then the police chief realized that if he didn't 845 00:47:53,719 --> 00:47:58,360 Speaker 2: do anything, he could be killed and then could be murdered. 846 00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:01,960 Speaker 2: They could push him off from the high rise saying that. 847 00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:03,080 Speaker 1: He had mental illness. 848 00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:04,440 Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly. 849 00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:07,399 Speaker 2: And then he reached out to people in Beijing two 850 00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:10,560 Speaker 2: before he went to the American embassy. So he reached 851 00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:13,839 Speaker 2: out to his friends in Beijing. But everybody said that 852 00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:17,920 Speaker 2: Bull is such a powerful political figure and he was 853 00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:21,719 Speaker 2: ready to be elevated. They didn't show much sympathy. But 854 00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:24,000 Speaker 2: the only thing they were kind of helpless in a while, 855 00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:26,840 Speaker 2: so he felt the only way to save his life 856 00:48:27,239 --> 00:48:29,480 Speaker 2: is to run to the American embassy to make the 857 00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:33,840 Speaker 2: international scandal and in this way a lot of publicity 858 00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:37,040 Speaker 2: might help and then he might have saved his life, 859 00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:39,080 Speaker 2: which in the end he did save his life. 860 00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:42,640 Speaker 3: Well, what ultimately happened, So he is shipped over to 861 00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:49,520 Speaker 3: Beijing and interrogated. What happens to convince the authorities to 862 00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:53,319 Speaker 3: then turn on one of their own, this person, you 863 00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:56,200 Speaker 3: know Bo, who's supposed to send to you know, this 864 00:48:56,600 --> 00:49:00,520 Speaker 3: seven member council right under the president. Do you then 865 00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:03,520 Speaker 3: say we're going to put his wife on trial for murder? 866 00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:06,480 Speaker 3: What changes just based on what this police chief has 867 00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:06,960 Speaker 3: to say. 868 00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:11,279 Speaker 2: So the police chief is very smart. He knew that 869 00:49:11,480 --> 00:49:16,000 Speaker 2: the murder case alone wouldn't be able to bring down Ball, 870 00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:19,160 Speaker 2: the person that he felt like he was threatening to 871 00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:23,040 Speaker 2: kill him, because there was just his evidence saying Nku 872 00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:27,839 Speaker 2: Kaila murdered somebody. So during the interrogation, now only he 873 00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:33,120 Speaker 2: told authorities about how Neil he would was murdered, he 874 00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:37,600 Speaker 2: also provided a lot of evidence to show that Ball 875 00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:42,040 Speaker 2: was planning to stay your coup with the top leaders. 876 00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:46,719 Speaker 2: Some of the leaders in Beijing trying to jeopardize undermine 877 00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:48,280 Speaker 2: the succession process. 878 00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:50,680 Speaker 1: And he had evidence, well that was real evidence that 879 00:49:50,719 --> 00:49:51,120 Speaker 1: he had. 880 00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:55,520 Speaker 2: He said he collected evidence. And also Ball happened to 881 00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:59,680 Speaker 2: fall into the trap. Is Bough personally since he was 882 00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:04,360 Speaker 2: the son of this prominent Commings leader. Right his personality, 883 00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:07,120 Speaker 2: he's very even when he was the mayor of a 884 00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:12,160 Speaker 2: small city, became the Commerce Minister of China, and when 885 00:50:12,200 --> 00:50:15,439 Speaker 2: the party ship chu Qing, he is the person who 886 00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:17,400 Speaker 2: is very high profile figure. 887 00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:19,919 Speaker 4: He's very loud and flamboyant in a way. 888 00:50:20,239 --> 00:50:23,960 Speaker 2: Will say each time he went somewhere, he had made 889 00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:25,920 Speaker 2: a lot of noises, he made a lot of enemies. 890 00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:27,359 Speaker 4: Like when he was in chu Qing. 891 00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:30,080 Speaker 2: The first thing he did he got rid of the 892 00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:34,000 Speaker 2: police chief and have him executed. And he launched this 893 00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:39,040 Speaker 2: program completely reminiscent of China in the nineteen sixties and 894 00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:44,320 Speaker 2: the cultural revolution. Like everybody started seeing the old revolutionary sounds, 895 00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:46,239 Speaker 2: like when we were growing up in China in the 896 00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:49,520 Speaker 2: nineteen sixties, it's like the Christian sounds. It's like the 897 00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:53,520 Speaker 2: every day we have seen the sounds to praise Chama Maud, 898 00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:58,359 Speaker 2: praise communists and that whole thing has long been repudiated. 899 00:50:58,560 --> 00:51:01,480 Speaker 2: We found was you know, And he started the whole thing. 900 00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:05,640 Speaker 2: He said, China after thirty years of capitalist reforms which 901 00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:09,400 Speaker 2: haven't gone anywhere, and the gap the rich and poor 902 00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:14,160 Speaker 2: is such it could jeopardize the rule of the Commist party. 903 00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:16,239 Speaker 4: We need to go back to the rule. So he 904 00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:19,000 Speaker 4: called him campaign and singing. 905 00:51:18,719 --> 00:51:22,960 Speaker 2: Red sounds and strike against organized crimes. 906 00:51:23,480 --> 00:51:26,360 Speaker 4: So he did a lot of this, and then he. 907 00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:29,800 Speaker 2: Persecuted a lot of his political opponents, who made a 908 00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:32,720 Speaker 2: lot of enemies. And then a lot of the people 909 00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:36,200 Speaker 2: in Beijing they felt threatened by him. So when one 910 00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:39,200 Speaker 2: started to say that he not only he did not 911 00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:41,640 Speaker 2: want to be the party chief, he did not want 912 00:51:41,680 --> 00:51:43,680 Speaker 2: to be elevated to the pol bearer member. 913 00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:46,560 Speaker 4: He wanted to be the number one in China. 914 00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:49,520 Speaker 2: And then he wanted to be He and some other 915 00:51:49,680 --> 00:51:54,239 Speaker 2: senior members of the Polybuer member the governing body's member. 916 00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:57,840 Speaker 2: They want to build their lines overthrow the rule of 917 00:51:57,880 --> 00:52:01,920 Speaker 2: the conference that covered the presidence. So he used cakes 918 00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:05,839 Speaker 2: and said sometimes she would made disparent and remarks about 919 00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:06,920 Speaker 2: the senior leaders. 920 00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:09,520 Speaker 1: But was this true? Was any is this true that 921 00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:10,360 Speaker 1: he was saying. 922 00:52:10,200 --> 00:52:13,319 Speaker 2: Dumba is a true but I think the more they exaggerated, 923 00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:17,840 Speaker 2: and a lot of his political components, they couldn't wait 924 00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:20,759 Speaker 2: to use these two, whether it's you undermine him and 925 00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:21,719 Speaker 2: get rid of him. 926 00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:25,280 Speaker 3: So I feel all different kinds of things about Boa 927 00:52:25,280 --> 00:52:28,920 Speaker 3: and Goole. So I felt badly for them because it 928 00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:32,600 Speaker 3: sounded like Heywood was really intimidating their son and trying 929 00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:35,080 Speaker 3: to extort money, and then didn't feel badly for them 930 00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:38,279 Speaker 3: because they're sending money overseas when they shouldn't be. And 931 00:52:38,320 --> 00:52:41,399 Speaker 3: then you're saying that he's executed a former police chief 932 00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:44,320 Speaker 3: and this current police chief is scared for his life, 933 00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:47,920 Speaker 3: but it also sounds like he's being that Boa is 934 00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:50,719 Speaker 3: being persecuted for something he didn't really do, even though 935 00:52:50,760 --> 00:52:53,279 Speaker 3: it does sound like he probably would like to do it. 936 00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:56,920 Speaker 1: So I just I don't know where all this is going. 937 00:52:57,960 --> 00:53:01,840 Speaker 2: This is a political game that you're succession, right, Everyone 938 00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:04,960 Speaker 2: want to get ahead. But the party, the Central Party 939 00:53:04,960 --> 00:53:08,720 Speaker 2: Committee has also had already had a plan the Chijing 940 00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:14,399 Speaker 2: Ping as the successor to the present position. And now 941 00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:18,120 Speaker 2: you have somebody here who comes try to disrupt the 942 00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:20,880 Speaker 2: status ball and they're not going to let it happen. 943 00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:23,719 Speaker 2: And then they want to get rid of him. And 944 00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:26,680 Speaker 2: then also some of his policies during that time, people 945 00:53:26,719 --> 00:53:29,600 Speaker 2: felt threatened because they felt like he was reversing China's 946 00:53:29,600 --> 00:53:32,440 Speaker 2: policy thirty years of trying to finally get into the 947 00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:34,880 Speaker 2: close to the west and get opened up, and you 948 00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:37,440 Speaker 2: go into the mild era, you start to do this. 949 00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:40,319 Speaker 4: So a multiple factors and. 950 00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:44,520 Speaker 2: Then really his political opponents said, now we finally got evidence. 951 00:53:44,800 --> 00:53:48,600 Speaker 2: They use this murder case and successfully they got rid 952 00:53:48,680 --> 00:53:53,759 Speaker 2: of him. So after Wali Jin had this his own reportings, 953 00:53:53,800 --> 00:53:57,880 Speaker 2: and then the funny thing is when right after committed murder, 954 00:53:58,040 --> 00:54:00,879 Speaker 2: he called the police chief to told him about it. 955 00:54:01,120 --> 00:54:04,840 Speaker 2: The police chief knew that he could use this later, 956 00:54:05,239 --> 00:54:08,680 Speaker 2: so he taped the whole conversation wow of a Goo 957 00:54:08,760 --> 00:54:13,400 Speaker 2: Kaila admitting that she killed Neil Haywood to protect her 958 00:54:13,520 --> 00:54:16,840 Speaker 2: soon and so he tape everything. He also had the 959 00:54:16,920 --> 00:54:21,120 Speaker 2: blood samples to show that Neil Haywood died of sini 960 00:54:21,320 --> 00:54:23,799 Speaker 2: not rather than except drinking. So he had all this 961 00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:27,080 Speaker 2: thing preserved and he turned it over to the Central 962 00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:30,000 Speaker 2: Party Committee and then they used this and the final 963 00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:31,800 Speaker 2: they decided to hold a public trial. 964 00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:34,759 Speaker 3: At first I thought the police chief is paranoid, but 965 00:54:34,880 --> 00:54:37,319 Speaker 3: I guess now that I know that his predecessor had 966 00:54:37,360 --> 00:54:40,799 Speaker 3: been executed by Bella, then I understand why he had 967 00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:44,719 Speaker 3: collected all of this stuff. What ultimately happens. So Google's 968 00:54:44,760 --> 00:54:47,520 Speaker 3: on trial for murdering Haywood, right. 969 00:54:47,719 --> 00:54:51,920 Speaker 2: Yes, and then and the public pressure, international pressure, they 970 00:54:51,960 --> 00:54:54,640 Speaker 2: decided to put him on the show trial Like the 971 00:54:54,800 --> 00:54:59,760 Speaker 2: whole trial happened much anticipated, I think in August twenty thirteen, 972 00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:05,600 Speaker 2: a year after. And then the whole trial lasted seven hours. 973 00:55:06,080 --> 00:55:09,160 Speaker 2: They claimed that they have interviewed more than three hundred 974 00:55:09,200 --> 00:55:12,839 Speaker 2: witnesses and then the officers stuff like that, but they 975 00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:16,680 Speaker 2: never did any cross examination. And then they just presented 976 00:55:16,719 --> 00:55:18,799 Speaker 2: some of the evidence. A lot of the evidence. They 977 00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:23,200 Speaker 2: mentioned that the police she provided and something they never like. 978 00:55:23,280 --> 00:55:27,120 Speaker 2: They never played the tape and they just had goog KaiA. 979 00:55:27,800 --> 00:55:30,760 Speaker 2: She went out there. You could tell that we were watched. 980 00:55:30,760 --> 00:55:32,600 Speaker 2: It was little all because she used to be this 981 00:55:32,840 --> 00:55:36,200 Speaker 2: stunning woman. She used to be called the kinda on 982 00:55:36,320 --> 00:55:37,240 Speaker 2: aessense of China. 983 00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:38,200 Speaker 4: But she was there. 984 00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:41,640 Speaker 2: But she said very contraved in a very contrived tale, 985 00:55:41,800 --> 00:55:45,600 Speaker 2: saying that sounded very repentant, saying that I killed Niol 986 00:55:45,640 --> 00:55:48,759 Speaker 2: hay Would because he threatened my son and that I 987 00:55:49,680 --> 00:55:54,280 Speaker 2: did something terribly wrong. And you know, she confessed the murder. 988 00:55:54,680 --> 00:55:57,400 Speaker 2: After the trial a few days later, she was sentenced 989 00:55:57,480 --> 00:56:00,759 Speaker 2: to death penalty, but waiting more two year years and 990 00:56:00,840 --> 00:56:03,759 Speaker 2: they try they extend that to life imprisonments. 991 00:56:04,320 --> 00:56:05,240 Speaker 4: So that's okay. 992 00:56:05,560 --> 00:56:08,520 Speaker 2: So I think the trial is so come down in 993 00:56:08,560 --> 00:56:12,719 Speaker 2: such a hasty manner, so so many unsolved questions, And 994 00:56:12,760 --> 00:56:15,759 Speaker 2: then after she died, people still didn't believe that she 995 00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:19,600 Speaker 2: really killed Neil Hayward. First she was supposed to be 996 00:56:19,719 --> 00:56:22,520 Speaker 2: They said that she was diagnosed with the severe mental 997 00:56:22,520 --> 00:56:27,719 Speaker 2: health issues. She had schizophrenia, and she had severe bipolar symptoms. Right, 998 00:56:28,120 --> 00:56:31,799 Speaker 2: and then if she and she was heavy medicated, and said, 999 00:56:31,840 --> 00:56:34,520 Speaker 2: how would you how could you trust her own words 1000 00:56:34,560 --> 00:56:38,799 Speaker 2: without letting other witnesses interview other witnesses or you know 1001 00:56:38,880 --> 00:56:41,799 Speaker 2: that they didn't even play the tape. And then there 1002 00:56:41,880 --> 00:56:45,279 Speaker 2: was also the thing is that she consulted with the 1003 00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:48,879 Speaker 2: police chief before Nil Haywood was invited to chun Ching 1004 00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:52,640 Speaker 2: after he arrived in toun Jing. And then the police 1005 00:56:52,640 --> 00:56:57,920 Speaker 2: she was supposed to monitor everything because he helped her obstrate. 1006 00:56:57,600 --> 00:56:58,800 Speaker 4: Their home murder kids. 1007 00:56:58,880 --> 00:57:01,760 Speaker 2: Right, she was a lawyer, and then all the police 1008 00:57:01,800 --> 00:57:05,879 Speaker 2: chief was helping her, right, why didn't she take some 1009 00:57:05,920 --> 00:57:09,560 Speaker 2: basic precaution. For example, when she was trying to administer 1010 00:57:09,800 --> 00:57:13,160 Speaker 2: the rad poison, she didn't even wear gloves, and then 1011 00:57:13,200 --> 00:57:17,520 Speaker 2: she had her fingerprints all over the stuff. And also 1012 00:57:18,120 --> 00:57:21,920 Speaker 2: some people say that there were some other people's footprints 1013 00:57:21,920 --> 00:57:25,040 Speaker 2: in the room they found out, but they never explored 1014 00:57:25,200 --> 00:57:30,080 Speaker 2: this evidence. And also more importantly, they did not believe 1015 00:57:30,160 --> 00:57:34,600 Speaker 2: that she was capable of murdering Neil Haywood. And because 1016 00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:38,720 Speaker 2: the rat poisoning itself in China, red Points considered a 1017 00:57:38,840 --> 00:57:42,360 Speaker 2: very tiny amount of sinid, not enough to kill the person. 1018 00:57:42,760 --> 00:57:45,800 Speaker 2: The police chief said that he took two blood samples 1019 00:57:45,800 --> 00:57:49,760 Speaker 2: before he was cremated. One blood sample had no trace 1020 00:57:49,840 --> 00:57:52,680 Speaker 2: of sinid in it at all, but the second blood 1021 00:57:52,760 --> 00:57:57,200 Speaker 2: sample that while was worried that could be teraminated. He 1022 00:57:57,480 --> 00:58:00,640 Speaker 2: gave the blood sample to a friend and then the 1023 00:58:00,840 --> 00:58:05,479 Speaker 2: friend transported to another city to captain refrigerator. And then 1024 00:58:05,800 --> 00:58:08,440 Speaker 2: when this whole case came out, one you said, I 1025 00:58:08,560 --> 00:58:11,080 Speaker 2: was so worried that Ball and the GUKAILI they would 1026 00:58:11,080 --> 00:58:13,400 Speaker 2: find out, they would damage the evidence. 1027 00:58:13,440 --> 00:58:16,120 Speaker 4: So I transferred the aviding to another city. 1028 00:58:16,320 --> 00:58:19,680 Speaker 2: But then the second evidence of the blood voles whatever 1029 00:58:19,680 --> 00:58:23,840 Speaker 2: they took and then contain sinide just the right amount 1030 00:58:24,120 --> 00:58:26,600 Speaker 2: to kill somebody that said, how could you be so 1031 00:58:26,640 --> 00:58:30,200 Speaker 2: accurate to put the right amount there? So there's all 1032 00:58:30,240 --> 00:58:33,920 Speaker 2: these different un answered the questions. So in my book 1033 00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:38,760 Speaker 2: that we argue that Gu Kaili herself was not capable enough. 1034 00:58:38,640 --> 00:58:40,240 Speaker 4: To commit the murder alone. 1035 00:58:40,680 --> 00:58:44,120 Speaker 2: We strongly believe that the police chief has a strong 1036 00:58:44,200 --> 00:58:49,360 Speaker 2: motive to help perpetrate the murder because once he had 1037 00:58:49,480 --> 00:58:53,000 Speaker 2: enough evidence against Gu Caili, he could use as a 1038 00:58:53,080 --> 00:58:57,280 Speaker 2: leverage to lobby for promotion with Ball because he felt 1039 00:58:57,360 --> 00:58:59,600 Speaker 2: he was he had a trump card, is your wife 1040 00:58:59,640 --> 00:59:03,160 Speaker 2: killed a British businessman and then you'd better give me 1041 00:59:03,240 --> 00:59:06,160 Speaker 2: a promotion otherwise have to publicize. 1042 00:59:05,600 --> 00:59:07,880 Speaker 1: That everybody is horrible in this story. 1043 00:59:08,160 --> 00:59:11,840 Speaker 2: Nobody's innocent, So everybody has their own different motives. It's 1044 00:59:11,920 --> 00:59:16,040 Speaker 2: just a corruption within China, is you know, the money 1045 00:59:16,240 --> 00:59:19,600 Speaker 2: and power, and then this whole thing so entwined in 1046 00:59:19,640 --> 00:59:22,760 Speaker 2: the story, and then you know, the police chief ended 1047 00:59:22,800 --> 00:59:26,640 Speaker 2: up because he himself tried so hard to use different 1048 00:59:26,640 --> 00:59:29,400 Speaker 2: ways to bring down the Chunjian party chief to save 1049 00:59:29,480 --> 00:59:33,240 Speaker 2: his own life. And then the party chiefs political opponents 1050 00:59:33,240 --> 00:59:37,080 Speaker 2: in Beijing they've used the perfect excus to bring him down. 1051 00:59:37,240 --> 00:59:42,800 Speaker 2: And then Onely Jean, through his collaboration with Boss political opponents, 1052 00:59:42,920 --> 00:59:45,840 Speaker 2: he was able to save his life. And then he 1053 00:59:46,000 --> 00:59:49,040 Speaker 2: was put on trial as well. Due to his collaboration. 1054 00:59:49,520 --> 00:59:52,600 Speaker 2: He was only sentenced to fifteen years in prison. 1055 00:59:53,080 --> 00:59:55,920 Speaker 3: This is the police chief, right, the police chief, Okay, 1056 00:59:55,960 --> 00:59:58,520 Speaker 3: so tell me what happens with everybody. So the police 1057 00:59:58,560 --> 01:00:01,160 Speaker 3: chief gets fifteen years in prison as like an accessory 1058 01:00:01,240 --> 01:00:02,000 Speaker 3: or whatever. 1059 01:00:01,840 --> 01:00:03,000 Speaker 4: Right, right. 1060 01:00:03,400 --> 01:00:07,800 Speaker 2: And then Ball was locked behind bars right before the succession. 1061 01:00:08,280 --> 01:00:12,320 Speaker 2: The succession normally happened in October, and then they extended 1062 01:00:12,320 --> 01:00:15,480 Speaker 2: for one month in November. And then at the party 1063 01:00:15,480 --> 01:00:18,160 Speaker 2: in congress when the new leadership was going to take over, 1064 01:00:18,560 --> 01:00:22,200 Speaker 2: everything went according to plan because Ball was safely locked 1065 01:00:22,200 --> 01:00:26,000 Speaker 2: behind bars. And then after the succession was done, and 1066 01:00:26,040 --> 01:00:27,520 Speaker 2: then they start the purchase. 1067 01:00:28,040 --> 01:00:30,040 Speaker 4: So Ball was the first one to go. 1068 01:00:30,280 --> 01:00:35,640 Speaker 2: He was sentenced to lifeline imprisonment for embezzlement public fund investment. 1069 01:00:36,120 --> 01:00:38,720 Speaker 2: And then the second part is all the people who 1070 01:00:38,760 --> 01:00:41,520 Speaker 2: were in Beijing, there were some seiate leaders. They were 1071 01:00:41,640 --> 01:00:45,200 Speaker 2: all gradually they were purged and they were sentenced to 1072 01:00:45,720 --> 01:00:49,880 Speaker 2: lifelong imprisonment or different kind of punishment in the name 1073 01:00:49,960 --> 01:00:54,760 Speaker 2: of corruption in this way to guarantee that the coup 1074 01:00:54,880 --> 01:00:58,120 Speaker 2: did not happen. And then they also call it a 1075 01:00:58,160 --> 01:01:03,600 Speaker 2: political cup because you bore was trying to his biggest 1076 01:01:03,640 --> 01:01:07,360 Speaker 2: crime is to try to stay a coup against the 1077 01:01:07,440 --> 01:01:11,280 Speaker 2: current leadership. That was the main reason. And then highlight 1078 01:01:11,680 --> 01:01:13,840 Speaker 2: one of the reasons we felt like she was so 1079 01:01:13,960 --> 01:01:17,240 Speaker 2: willingly a magical crime. We felt like she must have 1080 01:01:17,320 --> 01:01:19,160 Speaker 2: struck a deal with the Chinese government. 1081 01:01:19,840 --> 01:01:20,480 Speaker 4: Two things. 1082 01:01:20,520 --> 01:01:23,840 Speaker 2: First they let go of her son, who studied in 1083 01:01:23,840 --> 01:01:27,600 Speaker 2: New York and then later moved to Canada. Bo Blah 1084 01:01:27,640 --> 01:01:30,840 Speaker 2: blah was the name of the sun. And then right 1085 01:01:30,880 --> 01:01:34,680 Speaker 2: now they said, if you plead guilty, we will spur 1086 01:01:34,840 --> 01:01:37,960 Speaker 2: her sign of because if in a strict legal sense, 1087 01:01:38,160 --> 01:01:41,160 Speaker 2: her son was also involved in the corruption scandal, right 1088 01:01:41,480 --> 01:01:44,840 Speaker 2: you transfer the money out and he was the receiving end. 1089 01:01:45,320 --> 01:01:48,800 Speaker 2: And then they never pursue an hrgist against her son. 1090 01:01:49,280 --> 01:01:50,560 Speaker 2: And then said down one thing. 1091 01:01:50,840 --> 01:01:51,160 Speaker 4: I think. 1092 01:01:51,240 --> 01:01:54,600 Speaker 2: The other thing is she porportrayed the murder alone. She 1093 01:01:54,720 --> 01:01:58,200 Speaker 2: thought she could could have saved her husband, but that 1094 01:01:58,360 --> 01:02:02,080 Speaker 2: was not the case. But then she's still languishing in jail. 1095 01:02:02,480 --> 01:02:06,400 Speaker 2: And then during the trial of her husband, he added 1096 01:02:06,440 --> 01:02:09,640 Speaker 2: a New Triss. He kept saying that the police sheep 1097 01:02:09,720 --> 01:02:14,160 Speaker 2: and his wife had an affair and they were supporting 1098 01:02:14,160 --> 01:02:17,840 Speaker 2: each other. That's why she conducted the murder. And then 1099 01:02:18,080 --> 01:02:21,800 Speaker 2: everything was done without his knowledge and all that, but 1100 01:02:22,040 --> 01:02:24,600 Speaker 2: you know, it didn't help. And then the main reason 1101 01:02:24,920 --> 01:02:28,479 Speaker 2: his biggest crime was the political as the political call, 1102 01:02:28,600 --> 01:02:29,680 Speaker 2: rather than the murder. 1103 01:02:30,000 --> 01:02:32,640 Speaker 4: So he was jailed. 1104 01:02:33,080 --> 01:02:36,080 Speaker 2: And then recently there was a rumor saying that he 1105 01:02:36,360 --> 01:02:40,120 Speaker 2: was diagnosed with liver cancer. He was a medical parole. 1106 01:02:40,240 --> 01:02:43,680 Speaker 2: Somebody said he died, but nobody can verify the information, 1107 01:02:43,920 --> 01:02:47,080 Speaker 2: just pure rumor right now. But one thing is for sure, 1108 01:02:47,120 --> 01:02:50,439 Speaker 2: he's still locked behind bars. And when we were doing 1109 01:02:50,440 --> 01:02:54,520 Speaker 2: the story, we interviewed that China insider before his verdict 1110 01:02:54,600 --> 01:02:57,840 Speaker 2: was announced. We were asking said, how many years do 1111 01:02:57,880 --> 01:03:00,640 Speaker 2: you think he will get? The guy said, I don't 1112 01:03:00,720 --> 01:03:03,000 Speaker 2: know how many years would get, but one thing for sure, 1113 01:03:03,080 --> 01:03:06,240 Speaker 2: they would never let him get out alive and become 1114 01:03:06,240 --> 01:03:10,400 Speaker 2: a threat to the current leadership. So they achieved their goal. 1115 01:03:10,840 --> 01:03:13,560 Speaker 1: What about gool you said she died, Did she die 1116 01:03:13,560 --> 01:03:14,000 Speaker 1: in prison? 1117 01:03:14,640 --> 01:03:18,200 Speaker 2: No, that there was the boar is nobody knows. She's 1118 01:03:18,240 --> 01:03:21,840 Speaker 2: still in jail as far as we know. And also 1119 01:03:22,040 --> 01:03:27,000 Speaker 2: receiving psychiatric help. I know that her son right now is. 1120 01:03:27,080 --> 01:03:29,320 Speaker 4: Practicing law somewhere in Canada. 1121 01:03:29,920 --> 01:03:33,240 Speaker 2: My coaptor met with him before he left for Canada 1122 01:03:33,320 --> 01:03:36,160 Speaker 2: in New York City, and I think that in our 1123 01:03:36,200 --> 01:03:38,480 Speaker 2: book we mentioned that he's probably the last hope, is 1124 01:03:38,640 --> 01:03:43,440 Speaker 2: the descending this Bole family, this political dynasty, and this 1125 01:03:43,600 --> 01:03:47,000 Speaker 2: soll ended with the murder of Neil Haywood. 1126 01:03:58,360 --> 01:04:01,280 Speaker 3: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the 1127 01:04:01,320 --> 01:04:04,160 Speaker 3: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That 1128 01:04:04,280 --> 01:04:07,520 Speaker 3: Is Wicked, and American Sherlock and Don't Forget. There are 1129 01:04:07,600 --> 01:04:11,400 Speaker 3: twelve seasons of my historical true crime podcast, Tenfold More 1130 01:04:11,400 --> 01:04:15,080 Speaker 3: Wicked right here in this podcast feed, scroll back and 1131 01:04:15,080 --> 01:04:17,840 Speaker 3: give them a listen if you haven't already. This has 1132 01:04:17,920 --> 01:04:21,640 Speaker 3: been an exactly right production. Our senior producer is Alexis 1133 01:04:21,720 --> 01:04:26,560 Speaker 3: a Morosi. Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This episode 1134 01:04:26,720 --> 01:04:30,160 Speaker 3: was mixed by John Bradley. Curtis Heath is our composer, 1135 01:04:30,440 --> 01:04:34,920 Speaker 3: artwork by Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen 1136 01:04:34,960 --> 01:04:39,360 Speaker 3: Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram at 1137 01:04:39,440 --> 01:04:43,480 Speaker 3: tenfold More Wicked and on Facebook at Wicked Words Pod