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Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

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Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 1: it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true

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Speaker 2: crime all the time. We made it to Thursday, July seventeenth. Everybody,

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Speaker 2: We're so glad you're here. And yes, we have a

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Speaker 2: stacked night of headlines. So huge day in the Brian Coberger,

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Speaker 2: Idaho student murder's case, there was a hearing today and

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Speaker 2: the gag order has been officially lifted, so we will

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Speaker 2: be breaking down all of those developments. And also there's

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Speaker 2: been some new developments in the Travis Dekker case. You'll

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Speaker 2: remember he's the one who was accused for allegedly killing

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Speaker 2: his three daughters. There's been some newly released footage of

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Speaker 2: him days prior to those murders and it's pretty spook

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Speaker 2: and very telling. And also we're going to be following Boh,

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Speaker 2: the Menandaz Brothers. We have a very special guest with

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Speaker 2: us tonight. We have Robert rand here. Yet again, he's

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Speaker 2: been following this case and working on it closely with

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Speaker 2: the Menandaz Brothers since the day after the murders. So

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Speaker 2: he's the guy knows all of the newest things that

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Speaker 2: are happening in that case, will they walk free? So

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Speaker 2: we're looking forward to having him join. Also, we want

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Speaker 2: you to join the conversation, so please do eight eight

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Speaker 2: eight to three one Crime. You can call us anytime

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Speaker 2: or please leave us a talk back. All you have

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Speaker 2: to do is download the iHeart app, hit the button

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Speaker 2: in the right hand corner, leave us a little message,

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Speaker 2: and boom, you're on the show. You can also hit

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Speaker 2: us up on our socials at True Crime Tonight's show

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Speaker 2: on TikTok and Instagram, or at true Crime Tonight on Facebook.

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Speaker 2: I'm Stephanie Leidecker and I head of KAT Studios, where

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Speaker 2: we get to make true crime podcasts and documentaries and

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Speaker 2: I get to do that every night here with Body

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Speaker 2: Movin and Courtney Arms Strong. Ladies, it has been a day.

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Speaker 2: It's an exhausting day of hearings. Oh and by the way,

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Speaker 2: I know we mentioned this several days ago. The Blake

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Speaker 2: Lively hearing that was set for today has also been pushed,

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Speaker 2: so just as a heads up, we're not covering that

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Speaker 2: for the night. So, first and foremost, Robert, welcome to

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Speaker 2: the show. We're so happy to have you back.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for having me back. And there recuring quite

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Speaker 3: a number of developments in the case since we last spoke.

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Speaker 4: That is so true, pretty exciting developments, right.

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Speaker 3: Robert, Well, I started covering this case almost thirty six

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Speaker 3: years ago. There's twentieth nineteen Elgus. Twenty twenty five is

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Speaker 3: the thirty six year anniversary of the killing, and now

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Speaker 3: here we are on the possible edge of the brothers

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Speaker 3: being released from prison. And I always knew this day

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Speaker 3: would happen. I just wasn't sure what.

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Speaker 5: I can't imagine how gratifying this must be for the

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Speaker 5: literal decades of time you have spent working on the case, Robert,

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Speaker 5: So kudos first of all, and second, yeah, can you

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Speaker 5: explain to people who maybe don't know all of the

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Speaker 5: nuances what is going on for them and what might

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Speaker 5: potentially change for the Menandez brothers.

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Speaker 3: Sure, so there are two headlines right now. On May thirteenth,

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Speaker 3: Eric and Lyle Menendez were resentenced from life without parole

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Speaker 3: the original sentence to fifty years to life, and that

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Speaker 3: makes them immediately eligible for parole and both brothers will

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Speaker 3: touched by individually before the California Pearl Board August twenty

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Speaker 3: first and August twenty second. So that is their first

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Speaker 3: path to walking out the prison the eighth and that's

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Speaker 3: the one that people have been hearing about since last fall.

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Speaker 3: The newest headline came out over the weekend on Saturday.

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Speaker 3: Strangely enough, it was revealed that a Spirit Court judge

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Speaker 3: ruled that on the habeas petition that the brothers filed

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Speaker 3: in May of twenty twenty three, and the recencing and

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Speaker 3: the habeas tition are completely different court filings. The habeas

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Speaker 3: with the original court pilt from May twenty twenty three,

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Speaker 3: deals with the evidence there's new evidence, and the habeas

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Speaker 3: deals with that. And what happened was that the DA's

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Speaker 3: office kept asking for extensions to reply to the habeas,

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Speaker 3: and originally they were doing this for a year and

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Speaker 3: a half before George Gaston was voted out of office

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Speaker 3: and replaced by Nathan Ackman. And so this really came

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Speaker 3: as a adlies to people over the weekend because Judge

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Speaker 3: William Ryan ruled that he believed the information that was

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Speaker 3: laid out in the habeas and there's a I mean, eventually,

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Speaker 3: if that ruling were to hold up and he would

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Speaker 3: continue to rule that way, the brothers could actually walk

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Speaker 3: out of jail the next day.

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Speaker 2: And if anyone's not familiar with this case, just to

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Speaker 2: bring anybody up to speed, you know, Lyle and his brother,

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Speaker 2: of course, were accused and convicted for killing their parents

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Speaker 2: back in nineteen eighty nine, Kitty and Jose Menendez, and then, look,

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Speaker 2: it was a very brutal killing. It was also sensationalized

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Speaker 2: at that time. Since then, there's been a documentary that

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Speaker 2: was very well received, also a scripted series about them,

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Speaker 2: and you know, listen that may have really helped move

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Speaker 2: the needle for Eric and Lyle Menendez. Now they're being

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Speaker 2: housed together, and look, I would have to assume this

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Speaker 2: last inch must be the hardest because you know, in

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Speaker 2: their minds, they must assume they're going to be free

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Speaker 2: very soon or are they just kind of rolling with

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Speaker 2: the punches. I know you're very close with them and

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Speaker 2: have a very special relationship.

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Speaker 3: They are both hopeful, but they're not counting on anything.

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Speaker 3: Their case was not in court for twenty years and

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Speaker 3: then our documentary Menendez plus Menudo Voice Betrayed came out

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Speaker 3: on Peacock in May of twenty twenty three, revealing new

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Speaker 3: evidence about a nefarious connection between Jose Menendez when he

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Speaker 3: was head of our Shay Records in the nineteen eighties

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Speaker 3: and the Latin boy band Menudo, which sounds like, you know,

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Speaker 3: an incredible story, and it is, and so it's been

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Speaker 3: really it's in a few years for me and for

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Speaker 3: the case.

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Speaker 4: Well, Robert, this is kind of like your life's work, right,

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Speaker 4: so this must be kind of a feeling for you too.

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Speaker 4: I mean, of course the men and his brothers are

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Speaker 4: probably anxious and excited, but for you yourself as well, right.

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Speaker 3: Well, what's incredible about Judge Ryan's ruling over the weekend

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Speaker 3: saying that he believed the new evidence and you know

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Speaker 3: that that was the way he ruled. That's incredibly validating

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Speaker 3: not only for me personally, but we had a team

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Speaker 3: of over one hundred people that worked on this documentary, Wow,

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Speaker 3: including our showrunner director Esteraeis, and it really caught all

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Speaker 3: of us by surprise. But basically a spirit court judge

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Speaker 3: ruled that he actually believed the new evidence, and that

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Speaker 3: is huge. That's a major development for Eric and Lyle

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Speaker 3: I mean their first path freedom is still the recent

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Speaker 3: and seen followed by the appearance in front of the

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Speaker 3: pro board. But normally people are not are turned down

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Speaker 3: the first time they go to board and the pro

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Speaker 3: board turns them down, then they can't apply for another

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Speaker 3: three years. And so now the Habeas is suddenly looking

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Speaker 3: like a much stronger path of freedom.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, it sure seems so, Robert.

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Speaker 5: I have a couple of questions for you, and listen,

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Speaker 5: if anyone else has any questions for Robert about the

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Speaker 5: Menandez brothers, give us a call.

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Speaker 6: We're at eighty eight to three to one crime.

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Speaker 5: So I wanted to speak with you. I was reading

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Speaker 5: your book today, Robert, and specifically i'man.

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Speaker 2: Award winning journalist. By the way, nothing to shake a

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Speaker 2: stick at, Robert.

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Speaker 6: But it was really interesting.

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Speaker 5: So as far as I understand, it's really two main

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Speaker 5: pieces of evidence that support the claim that's supporting the

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Speaker 5: Habeas corpus, and one of them is the former Menudo

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Speaker 5: member of filing an AffA, David, you know, claiming that

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Speaker 5: he was raped, as we just spoke about in your

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Speaker 5: fabulous documentary, Robert. And then also was that letter that

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Speaker 5: Eric wrote back in nineteen eighty nine to his cousin Andy.

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Speaker 6: So a couple of things.

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Speaker 5: First, I'd love you to remind us of how you

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Speaker 5: were the one to actually find that letter. And second,

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Speaker 5: if you can talk through a little bit the relationship

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Speaker 5: that this cousin, who was only also a teenager at

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Speaker 5: the time, and what this case also did to him.

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Speaker 5: I believe you said you viewed him as a sixth

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Speaker 5: victim of this crime, which great question.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a really good question.

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Speaker 3: So what happened was that in around the two thousand

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Speaker 3: and nine twenty ten March, Keno, the mother of Andy Kano,

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Speaker 3: said to me. She made a very cryptic remark, She said, someday,

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Speaker 3: after my mother dies, I'm going to tell you something

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Speaker 3: that I've never told you before. And that turned out

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Speaker 3: to me that she was an eyewitness to her mother

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Speaker 3: sexually molesting her young brother, Jose when he was around three,

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Speaker 3: four or five years old, And so that was kind

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Speaker 3: of a shock. And then later in the fall of

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Speaker 3: twenty seventeen, I was working on the Dick Wolf NBC

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Speaker 3: series order True Crime The Mennis Murders.

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Speaker 4: Also very very very great. By the way, your work.

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Speaker 3: Is coridinary, it's a very good telling of the story

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Speaker 3: because unlike Monsters, the Netflix series, which had a lot

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Speaker 3: of viewers, the Dick Wolf series was almost ninety eight

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Speaker 3: percent accurate. It was almost like a documentary. And unfortunately,

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Speaker 3: in Monsters, there were a number of things that weren't true.

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Speaker 3: There were a number of falsehoods, and but that didn't

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Speaker 3: stop the huge Netflix audience of three hundred million subscribers

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Speaker 3: from watching it. And then there was a documentary that

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Speaker 3: came out on Netflix a few weeks later, which actually

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Speaker 3: I was in. I was interviewed in that, and so

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Speaker 3: I'm grateful to Netflix that they created the series and

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Speaker 3: the documentary. But I've been thinking of sending Ryan Murphy,

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Speaker 3: the producer of the scripted series, a bouquet of dead

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Speaker 3: flowers because I was family with Anne Schwart, who is

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Speaker 3: the expert on the Jeffreys Dahmer case. She covered the

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Speaker 3: Dahmer trial. She was in his living room the night

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Speaker 3: he was arrested. And unfortunately, mister Murphy playediarized scenes from

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Speaker 3: both of our books. But that's all the story.

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Speaker 2: With the black dead flowers, that's a nice elegant touch. Robert,

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Speaker 2: do you have ill will? Do you have a feeling?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 5: I think we all learned we need to stay on

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Speaker 5: Robert's good side and listen.

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Speaker 6: That means all of us.

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Speaker 5: And when we come back, I want to ask you

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Speaker 5: immediately about a plane ride confession in the Menandez case

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Speaker 5: that was absolute news to me in reading your book.

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Speaker 5: And then also want to find out how the brothers

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Speaker 5: are doing today. And yes, yeah, so that and much

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Speaker 5: more is going to be happening after the break and

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Speaker 5: stick with us and Robert rand Later in the show,

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Speaker 5: we're going to be getting into the trial of the

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Speaker 5: Colorado dentist who allegedly murdered his wife. Give us a

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Speaker 5: call always eighty eight three to one Crime keep it

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Speaker 5: here on True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Big day today in the land of true crime. Brian Coburger,

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Speaker 2: the now guilty killer of four incredible Idaho students, was

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Speaker 2: in court today for a hearing and the gag order

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Speaker 2: has been officially lifted, so we'll be unpacking more on

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Speaker 2: that later. Also, as I mentioned earlier, Travis Decker accused

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Speaker 2: of allegedly killing his three daughters. There's some really haunting

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Speaker 2: video that's come out of him in the days prior

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Speaker 2: to the murders that will also be discussing and that

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Speaker 2: dentist who is now standing trial for allegedly killing his

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Speaker 2: wife with eyedrops. It appears that is another one that

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Speaker 2: this is a story that is just starting and likely

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Speaker 2: not going to stop for anytime soon. But first, we

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Speaker 2: have a very special guest. Robert rand is joining us

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Speaker 2: back again. He's an Emmy Award winning journalist. He's been

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Speaker 2: following the Menendez brother's case since the day after the trial.

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Speaker 2: So we're talking decades at this point. If you're not

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Speaker 2: familiar with that case, both of these brothers were accused

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Speaker 2: of killing their parents, Kitty and Jose Menendez back in

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Speaker 2: nineteen eighty nine. Really an overkill, And listen, I got

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Speaker 2: a lot of sensational press back in the day, which

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Speaker 2: you know may have really worked against them. And now

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Speaker 2: cut to years and years later. You know, Robert, because

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Speaker 2: of your great work, this wonderful documentary that you did

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Speaker 2: for Peacock, new evidence has now come forward and that

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Speaker 2: evidence might set them free. You know, you had, so

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Speaker 2: welcome back, Robert. You had said something earlier that I

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Speaker 2: just want to go back to. Did I hear this correctly?

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Speaker 2: So you're saying that Jose Menendez, the father killed by

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Speaker 2: his sons who have now they seemingly have proof that

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Speaker 2: they were being sexually abused as young boys, and that

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Speaker 2: was really the orige and story to why these murders

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Speaker 2: even happened, and maybe that was all precluded from their trial.

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Speaker 2: You had mentioned earlier that maybe the dad was also

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Speaker 2: being abused as a young boy his mother is Did

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Speaker 2: I hear that correctly? Or was that a different Jose

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Speaker 2: in the family.

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Speaker 3: Yes, no, no, that is correct that in my book

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Speaker 3: the menenous murders actually one third of abuse victims grew

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Speaker 3: up to abuse themselves.

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Speaker 4: Generational trauma.

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Speaker 3: Right, But this was really a story. This is a

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Speaker 3: story about a dysfunctional family and two parents who raised

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Speaker 3: a couple of troubled kids. And there was three years

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Speaker 3: between when the brothers were arrested in March or nineteen

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Speaker 3: ninety and when the case finally went to trial in

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Speaker 3: July ninety three. There were legal issues surrounding the brother's

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Speaker 3: relationship with a therapist who they had recorded a tape

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Speaker 3: with and who had notes from their therapy sessions, and

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Speaker 3: so by the time the case finding a trial after

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Speaker 3: three years, the general opinion of the public was Erica

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Speaker 3: Menendez were a pair of greedy rich kids who killed

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Speaker 3: Alzie Harriet on a Sunday night in Beverly Hills and.

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Speaker 2: Beautiful Beverly Hills exactly. That's how I remember it back

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Speaker 2: in the day.

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Speaker 3: And the problem was that in the La County DA's office,

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Speaker 3: they have a dozen people that do nothing but pr

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Speaker 3: and their job is to put out the spin, their

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Speaker 3: spin of the stories, so that jurors will kind of

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Speaker 3: be preconditioned before they ever walked into a courtroom. And

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Speaker 3: so for three years, the only story the public heard

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Speaker 3: was about greedy, rich kids, and so that was the

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Speaker 3: general opinion about Eric and Lyle, and that was never

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Speaker 3: the real story. I had the luxury of being a

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Speaker 3: book author that I was able to spend quite a

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Speaker 3: bit of time with family members, with Eric and Lyle themselves,

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Speaker 3: and I learned a lot before the trial ever started.

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Speaker 3: And then during the trial, which was six months long.

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Speaker 3: The first trial, there were almost sixty witnesses, teachers, coaches,

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Speaker 3: family members, friends of the family who told a very

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Speaker 3: detailed story of the dysfunction in this family. And so

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Speaker 3: the first trial ended there was two juries, one for

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Speaker 3: each brother because some of the evidence that applied to

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Speaker 3: one or the other. The first trial ended in two mistrials.

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Speaker 3: All the women voted for manslaughter, all the men voted

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Speaker 3: for murder. I interviewed all the jurors after the first trial,

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Speaker 3: and all the men told me some version of well,

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Speaker 3: a father would never do that. And I think that

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Speaker 3: we've learned in the past thirty years. Society has evolved.

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Speaker 3: You know, now we have the hashtag metia movement, the

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Speaker 3: hashtag MENTU movement. We've evolved, and we understand that these

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Speaker 3: things do go on, and not just to girls, but

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Speaker 3: to boys as well.

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Speaker 2: And by the way also, you know, probably to further

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Speaker 2: that point, not that it's great in any gender obviously,

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Speaker 2: captain obvious, but you know for boys especially too, they

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Speaker 2: don't even have the verbal capability. Sometimes a shame that's

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Speaker 2: attached to that. You know, we're seeing this more and more,

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Speaker 2: and thank goodness, where hopefully there's more of a climate

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Speaker 2: where victims feel like they can in fact come forward

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Speaker 2: and be heard and listened to. But back in those

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Speaker 2: days that was sort of blasphemy, and you know, maybe

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Speaker 2: they were real. They've been a real influence on that,

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Speaker 2: I would imagine, even from behind bars.

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Speaker 3: Right, and the challenge that we had putting the Menendez

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Speaker 3: Manu documentary together was we were only able to get

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Speaker 3: in the end one victim, Roy Roussello, who came forward

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Speaker 3: and told a very detailed story of what he suffered

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Speaker 3: at the hands of Jose Menendez and also he was

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Speaker 3: less by the creator of at Ghetto Ideas. And in fact,

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Speaker 3: the LAPD has an active investigation Intodas following a complaint

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Speaker 3: that Roy Roussello made against Diaz, and I thuink what's happened.

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Speaker 3: I mean, we were actually talking to a half dozen

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Speaker 3: other former members of Menudo that we believe were victims

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Speaker 3: of Jose Menendez and at gto Diaz, and we were

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Speaker 3: very close to getting to sell of them to come

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Speaker 3: forward and go on camera, and in the end they

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Speaker 3: all said no. And the reason is that they are

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Speaker 3: all members of Ernudo Reunion bands, they are all married,

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Speaker 3: they have children, and I completely understand they didn't want

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Speaker 3: to dredge up this information from their past. And some

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Speaker 3: people take these secret of being molested to their grave.

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Speaker 3: And as Roy told us in the documentary, he was

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Speaker 3: very ashamed. And some people said, well, where was Roy

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Speaker 3: Roussello thirty years ago? Why didn't he come forward and

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Speaker 3: appear in court? And I can tell you exactly where

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Speaker 3: Roy was. He was living in Brazil, basically hiding out.

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Speaker 3: He had been born and grown up in Puerto Rico

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Speaker 3: when he was in Minuto, and he was aware that

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Speaker 3: the Menndes trial was going on, but he was ashamed.

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Speaker 3: He didn't want to come forward.

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Speaker 6: You know, that's sadly common.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's just so common. You're listening to true Crime

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Speaker 4: tonight on iHeartRadio. I'mbody move in with Courtney Armstrong and

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Speaker 4: Stephanie Leidecker and we are joined by Menandez Brothers expert

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Speaker 4: Robert rand and we've been talking about all things Menandez.

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Speaker 4: Give us a call at eight eight eight thirty one

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Speaker 4: Crime if you have any questions, or give us a

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Speaker 4: talk back on the iHeartRadio app. And I understand we

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Speaker 4: have a Menendez brother's talk back. Can we go to

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Speaker 4: that real quick?

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Speaker 7: Hi?

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Speaker 8: I'm relatively new to the Menenda's case, and I was

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Speaker 8: just wondering how people who support them justify their behavior

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Speaker 8: after the murders, because even if they did have a

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Speaker 8: very valid motive, it still just seems really strange that

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Speaker 8: they would go on the spending spree. And I'm just

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Speaker 8: wondering if they've ever given any sort of explanation or

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Speaker 8: justification for that behavior.

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Speaker 4: So valid, That is so valid because that's honestly a

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Speaker 4: problem I have with that's.

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Speaker 2: Just it's maybe a trauma response.

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Speaker 4: What do they say about it?

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Speaker 3: I can answer that question very easily. Eric and Lyle

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Speaker 3: Menendez never got a penny from the estate of their parents.

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Speaker 3: What they did receive five weeks after the killings was

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Speaker 3: a distribution from an US policy that they didn't even

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Speaker 3: know about. Their aunt, March Keno, was a financial planner

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Speaker 3: in Florida and she had sold Jose a lifetures policy.

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Speaker 3: So five weeks after the killings, she came to Beverly

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Speaker 3: Hills and she handed each brother a check for a

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Speaker 3: quarter million dollars. And what I say is, if you

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Speaker 3: give any eighteen or twenty one year old a quarter

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Speaker 3: million dollars to me, the sprides would be if they

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Speaker 3: don't go out and buy a nice car, or buy clothes,

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Speaker 3: or you know, go out.

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Speaker 4: To be fair to the talkbacker, The way it's portrayed

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Speaker 4: in the media and in many shows and whatnot is

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Speaker 4: that it was almost immediate, and it was you know,

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Speaker 4: they went to the record company where you know jose

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Speaker 4: Menend's work and demanded like dispersements and it was like

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Speaker 4: immedia and they went and bought Porsches and jewelry, and

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Speaker 4: the way it's portrayed in some of these shows, right,

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Speaker 4: it seems like it happened almost immediately, but you're seeing

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Speaker 4: it was like five weeks and it was like a

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Speaker 4: quarter of a million, and you know that kind of

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Speaker 4: tracks that kind of tracks with the reality.

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Speaker 3: And I think what you also need to understand this

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Speaker 3: was a very wealthy, upper class family. Sure, the family,

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Speaker 3: all the members of the family had always spent a

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Speaker 3: lot of money, so them going out spending money is

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Speaker 3: was not unusual for the family.

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Speaker 2: I'm really glad we're talking about this too, because Robert,

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Speaker 2: to your point, you know, victims everywhere throughout the world,

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Speaker 2: we might add, we hear this on a daily basis,

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Speaker 2: male or female, the shame that's attached to that. Even

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Speaker 2: just talking about this now, I'm really just glad that

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Speaker 2: we can say this officially. If you've been the victim

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Speaker 2: of any sort of abuse, the shame has to be

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Speaker 2: put aside. The silence does change nothing. And I guess

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Speaker 2: it's these types of stories too, that you know, Thank goodness,

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Speaker 2: we're actually hearing this from you. It's actually very moving.

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Speaker 3: And one other key fact about the spend Main Street.

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Speaker 3: In August ninety two, a year before the brothers went

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Speaker 3: on trial, the Ella County DA's office went to a

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Speaker 3: grand jury with evidence of murder for financial gain and

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Speaker 3: the grand jury did not indicte the brothers on those charges. Wow.

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Speaker 3: And yet that didn't stop the prosecution for a moment

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Speaker 3: because they knew the media loved that story, greedy Richards.

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Speaker 3: They knew the public loved that story, and so they

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Speaker 3: just kept talking about greedy Richards, even though they never

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Speaker 3: got the indictment that they tried to get from the

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Speaker 3: grand jury.

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Speaker 4: Wow. Well, we're going to continue our conversation with Robert

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Speaker 4: Rand about the menandas brothers, and in the second hour

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Speaker 4: we're going to break down the implications of the judge

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Speaker 4: in the Idahoster murderer's case lifting the gag order. We

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Speaker 4: have answers to your burning questions. Stay right here at

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Speaker 4: True Crime Tonight, where we're talking true crime all the time.

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Speaker 2: Tonight we've had this extraordinary guest, Robert Rand, who was

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Speaker 2: an Emmy Award winning journalist also a documentarian. Please check

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Speaker 2: out his documentary on Peacock about the Menendez brothers plus Menudo,

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Speaker 2: and also as an author who really has basically solved

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Speaker 2: this big riddle about the Menendez brothers, meaning because of

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Speaker 2: your work, Frankly, Robert, the Menendez brothers who have been

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Speaker 2: serving time behind bars since you know, the early nineteen

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Speaker 2: ninety I believe, or ninety one, right, they were accused

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Speaker 2: and later convicted of killing their parents, Kitty and Jose Menendez.

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Speaker 2: Kind of a sensational case back in the day. And

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Speaker 2: you know, now we're learning that they were being sexually

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Speaker 2: abused by Dad, and that information existed even back in

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Speaker 2: the day, and it was maybe purposefully left out of

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Speaker 2: the hearings and the trial, and they've been extraordinary citizens

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Speaker 2: behind bars. They were hoping to be home by Thanksgiving,

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Speaker 2: and now it's looking like any day now or maybe

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Speaker 2: a month from now, or I'm curious what your prediction

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Speaker 2: on that would be, that they may, you know, finally

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Speaker 2: walk free and get to go home to their families.

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Speaker 2: Kind Of also important to note that, you know, the

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Speaker 2: family members his aunts, uncles, people connected to the parents,

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Speaker 2: family members connected to them, really have stood by them

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Speaker 2: and are frankly begging for their release, and I think

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Speaker 2: that says a lot and it also sheds a lot

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Speaker 2: of insight into these types of origin stories of abuse

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Speaker 2: that are happening behind closed doors. We do not know

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Speaker 2: what happens behind closed doors. Even the glitsiest places in

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Speaker 2: Beverly Hills could have heinous things happening to children and

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Speaker 2: as a result, you know, they took their lives have

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Speaker 2: been lost. So I know, Courtney, you had a burning

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Speaker 2: question that you wanted to ask.

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Speaker 6: Robert.

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Speaker 5: I am dying to know if you've had occasion to

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Speaker 5: speak with attorney Cliff Gardener and also either or both

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Speaker 5: of the Benandez brothers.

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Speaker 3: I actually spoke to Cliff Gardner, who I've known waiting

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Speaker 3: twenty years, a couple days ago, and Cliff told me

435
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 3: that what I said earlier, that actually, the first time

436
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:21,440
Speaker 3: inmates go in front of the California pro Board, it's

437
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 3: unlikely that they will be recommended to be released, but

438
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:30,119
Speaker 3: it could happen. This case has had so many twists

439
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 3: and turns over the past nine months, anything could happen.

440
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:38,880
Speaker 3: And if the pro Board recommends that they be released,

441
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 3: then there's a four month procedure before it goes to

442
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:49,160
Speaker 3: Governor Gavin Newsom. So around Christmas time, Gavin Newsom will

443
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 3: have thirty days to either go along with the pro

444
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:57,200
Speaker 3: board and release them or turn them down, and so

445
00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 3: that will be very interesting development obviously. But now with

446
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 3: this ruling by Judge Ryan about the behavius, now we

447
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:10,280
Speaker 3: have a very active second path to freedom.

448
00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:12,959
Speaker 4: The tone of this judge it sounds like he is

449
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:16,879
Speaker 4: actually kind of on the Menindez brother's side, right. He

450
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:21,240
Speaker 4: has basically told the prosecution you have to answer on

451
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:25,159
Speaker 4: why this evidence wasn't allowed. And this creates like the

452
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:28,880
Speaker 4: prima fache case, which means that this is accepted as

453
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 4: correct until proven otherwise. So it feels to me very

454
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:35,480
Speaker 4: like positive in pro Menendez.

455
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 3: It looks very encouraging for Eric Delyisle. But they're still,

456
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:45,200
Speaker 3: as Mark Errago says, they are cautiously optimistic. Right. They've

457
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 3: been incarcerated for thirty five years, So imagine if you've

458
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 3: been in prison for decades and suddenly you have a

459
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 3: sliver of an opportunity which has actually grown to a

460
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 3: major opportunity to be released. And one of the most

461
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:06,959
Speaker 3: interesting things that former DA George Gascon said in October

462
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 3: when he announced that he was starting the resentencing initiative

463
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:16,800
Speaker 3: was that he said, Eric Halilmnandez never thought they would

464
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:20,960
Speaker 3: be released from prison, and yet they chose a path

465
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:24,480
Speaker 3: of redemption. They chose to be of service and help

466
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:28,480
Speaker 3: their fellow inmates. And when I met them two months

467
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,719
Speaker 3: after the killings, five months before they were arrested, they

468
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:36,280
Speaker 3: were young, immature college kids, and now they are fifty

469
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:40,120
Speaker 3: four and fifty seven, so they are very different people

470
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:44,000
Speaker 3: to me. They are not the cartoon characters that you

471
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 3: see portrayed in some of the movies on TV. And

472
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:52,920
Speaker 3: one key thing that people need to understand is that

473
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:56,959
Speaker 3: the two juries at the first trial heard a completely

474
00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:00,600
Speaker 3: different set of evidence than at the s second trial.

475
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:04,400
Speaker 3: The first thing trial Judge Stanley Westberg did was he

476
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:09,160
Speaker 3: kicked the TV cameras out. Kortiv carried the entire first

477
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:12,080
Speaker 3: trial for six months gable the gattle. And in the

478
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:15,120
Speaker 3: second trial, the first thing the judge did was kick

479
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 3: the TV camera out. And the second most important thing

480
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 3: he did was he severely limited the defense to the

481
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 3: witnesses they could put on. Instead of sixty witnesses, we

482
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 3: only heard from twenty five witnesses in the second trial

483
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:38,480
Speaker 3: from the defense, and also the judge severely limited what

484
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 3: the witnesses could say, and they.

485
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:44,000
Speaker 4: Were tried together on this time. Right, That was another

486
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:47,080
Speaker 4: really big difference because the first trial they were tried separately,

487
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 4: is that correct, and then the second one they combined them.

488
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:50,480
Speaker 2: Let's talk about that.

489
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 4: That's interesting and what's a little different.

490
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 3: The reason they had two juries in the first trial

491
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:58,240
Speaker 3: was some of the evident only applied to one brother

492
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:02,720
Speaker 3: or the other. Right, It was a situation where juries

493
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 3: were being moved in and out of the courtroom depending

494
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:09,200
Speaker 3: on who the witness was. And in the second trial,

495
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:13,120
Speaker 3: after the brothers were convicted in March of ninety six

496
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 3: first degree murdered, then they had what's called the pedaly phase,

497
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 3: in which the jury basically had two choices, life of

498
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:25,959
Speaker 3: up Roll or the death ely. And in that pedally phase,

499
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 3: the defense got to put on all of those witnesses

500
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 3: who were not allowed in second trial, and more of

501
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 3: the jurors told me off the record after the second trial,

502
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:42,680
Speaker 3: if they had heard those witnesses in the guilt phase

503
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:45,240
Speaker 3: of the trial, they wouldn't have voted for murder.

504
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:47,960
Speaker 6: So, oh my gosh.

505
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 5: So the implications are literally life changing for the Menendez brothers.

506
00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 5: So this ruling, it sounds like, you know, we'll finally

507
00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 5: have its day in court.

508
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 6: We're here with Robert Rand.

509
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:04,160
Speaker 5: We are talking about the Menendez brothers, who Robert Rand

510
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:08,480
Speaker 5: has been working with and following and covering in books

511
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 5: and documentaries that have literally shifted their lives. If you

512
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:14,680
Speaker 5: want to ask him any questions, We're at eighty eight

513
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 5: three to one crime.

514
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 3: Oh quick side. I was texting with the actor Coopercouch

515
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 3: play who was just nominated for an Emmy another.

516
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:26,960
Speaker 2: Emmy Award, potential winner.

517
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 3: For playing Eric Menendez. And if you only watch one

518
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 3: episode of Monsters, watch episode five. It is one take

519
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 3: with Coopercouch doing forty five minutes straight and it's incredible.

520
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 3: And for that episode alone, he should have been nominated,

521
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:51,440
Speaker 3: and he was, and he's very excited. And also he

522
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:56,000
Speaker 3: has been an outspoken supporter of Eric and Lyle Menendez.

523
00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:58,400
Speaker 3: So shout out to Coopercouch.

524
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 2: I heard they hugged when they first met for the

525
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:05,200
Speaker 2: very first time, the actor and then obviously the real

526
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:05,920
Speaker 2: life person.

527
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 3: Well, like I said, the real life people, they are

528
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:13,640
Speaker 3: not cartoon characters to me, right, you know, whenever I

529
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:17,640
Speaker 3: go to visit Lyleman and us. We always hug when

530
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:21,040
Speaker 3: we see each other. And the interesting thing is we

531
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:24,160
Speaker 3: never talk about the case in person. We just talked

532
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 3: about life. Oh really, I want to ask, when you

533
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 3: visit a prison in California, you're not allowed to take

534
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:33,720
Speaker 3: anything but fifty dollars in one dollar bills to use

535
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:37,040
Speaker 3: the machines and your car keys. You can't take a

536
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 3: tape recorder, you can't take a notepad or a pen.

537
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:43,880
Speaker 3: And so when I want to talk to a litle

538
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:47,360
Speaker 3: about facts from the trial, we do it over the phone.

539
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:50,280
Speaker 3: When I see them in person, we just talk about life.

540
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:51,720
Speaker 2: How is their life?

541
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:57,680
Speaker 3: Their life is actually remarkable that they have, as I said,

542
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 3: they have been of service to their inmate community. They

543
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:06,800
Speaker 3: created what's called a green space project in which they

544
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:10,160
Speaker 3: have painted the giant mural on the inside of their

545
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:15,960
Speaker 3: prison yard, and it's remarkable to see it in person. Also,

546
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:21,480
Speaker 3: Eric Menandez created a hospice program at one of the

547
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:27,640
Speaker 3: prisons he was at earlier, and so they're both teaching classes. Also,

548
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:31,400
Speaker 3: both brothers in the past year gotten their BA degrees.

549
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:35,360
Speaker 3: F U see her. They now have a program where

550
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:39,800
Speaker 3: you can take college courses over zoom and both brothers

551
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:44,880
Speaker 3: are now college graduates, and you know what they studied. Actually,

552
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:48,399
Speaker 3: the only degree that you can take from U see

553
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 3: her write in is sociology.

554
00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:54,480
Speaker 2: Oh okay, Wow, that's so interesting. And I know, you

555
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:57,040
Speaker 2: know they're going to go hopefully you know, I know

556
00:34:57,120 --> 00:34:59,160
Speaker 2: this would be very important for you as well to

557
00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 2: their own fan and you know, one is married, one

558
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 2: no longer. I always thought it was interesting that I

559
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 2: believe they're divorced now, But how is it Lyle one

560
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:12,719
Speaker 2: of their exes that you know, she went to law

561
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:15,680
Speaker 2: school and like really is one of the biggest staunchest,

562
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:19,879
Speaker 2: you know, defenders of her now ex But it kind

563
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:22,160
Speaker 2: of speaks to the fact that they're so beloved.

564
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:26,880
Speaker 3: Well, actually they are separated, they're not divorced. And Lyle

565
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:31,000
Speaker 3: is married to a lovely woman who is an employment

566
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:34,960
Speaker 3: law attorney, and she moves to San Diego about a

567
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,799
Speaker 3: year and a half ago to be close to him. Well,

568
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:42,799
Speaker 3: and she runs his public Facebook page which has over

569
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 3: one hundred thousand supporters on it.

570
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:49,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, she really dedicated her life to this. Wow.

571
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 3: Yeah. What's interesting is that the Facebook page is not

572
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:58,000
Speaker 3: a free lends brother's page. It's a page for supporters

573
00:35:58,360 --> 00:35:59,800
Speaker 3: of childhood abuse.

574
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:00,960
Speaker 2: Wow.

575
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:01,920
Speaker 4: Oh really?

576
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:05,560
Speaker 6: Oh so doing good upon good upon good.

577
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:08,880
Speaker 2: Out of dark upon docupon dark, you know, and I

578
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:11,040
Speaker 2: guess that's the moral of the tale.

579
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:14,600
Speaker 3: Well, the reality of the story is very different from

580
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:16,080
Speaker 3: the myth of the story.

581
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:20,319
Speaker 5: And Robert, we appreciate you being with us here so

582
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:22,640
Speaker 5: much to give us. You know, what does go on

583
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:27,280
Speaker 5: behind the myth? And everyone who's interested in diving deeper

584
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 5: into the decades of research that Robert has been doing

585
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:35,400
Speaker 5: can read his book It's the Menendez Murders, or watches

586
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:40,440
Speaker 5: documentary Menandez and Menudo boys portrayed that is on Peacock.

587
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:43,000
Speaker 2: You know one thing we didn't get back to, and

588
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:45,080
Speaker 2: I think one of you knows the answer to this

589
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:49,279
Speaker 2: was Courtney. You had mentioned it earlier, this confession that

590
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:50,840
Speaker 2: happened on a plane.

591
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:54,920
Speaker 5: Oh, my goodness, and yes that was I Honestly, I

592
00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:57,399
Speaker 5: got so caught up when Robert was telling us about

593
00:36:57,440 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 5: sort of their present day lives that I lost track

594
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:03,600
Speaker 5: of my own question. But I read this in Robert's

595
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:08,400
Speaker 5: book on the Menandez brothers that on a plane ride

596
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:12,839
Speaker 5: after Lyle was arrested first, and then a very few

597
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 5: days later Eric was and he needed to take a

598
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:15,719
Speaker 5: plane ride.

599
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:18,600
Speaker 4: He was an Israel, right, he was an Israel and

600
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:19,840
Speaker 4: he had to take a plane.

601
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 5: Comeback, right, and then when he landed he had to

602
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:26,359
Speaker 5: take another I think it was a excuse flight. Yes,

603
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:30,680
Speaker 5: but he was on a flight with his cousin Andy,

604
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:33,759
Speaker 5: who he wrote the letter to, and he was only

605
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:36,959
Speaker 5: about sixteen at the time, and on this plane, which

606
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 5: was fairly empty, Eric confessed to his cousin Andy.

607
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:45,640
Speaker 6: That they had murdered their parents.

608
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:51,759
Speaker 5: And his cousin Andy that confession, oh to himself. Yeah,

609
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:55,960
Speaker 5: so he literally, Eric literally confessed and actually he tried

610
00:37:56,640 --> 00:38:01,480
Speaker 5: to say something because his Aunt Marta, Andy's mother, was

611
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:05,279
Speaker 5: also on the plane and she had said that Eric

612
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:07,840
Speaker 5: sort of put his head on her shoulder and was

613
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:09,960
Speaker 5: crying and said out to tell you something, and she said,

614
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 5: I don't want to know.

615
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:15,319
Speaker 4: Well, it's important to know. Andy is the cousin that

616
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:19,319
Speaker 4: got the letter about you know that that basically might

617
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:24,239
Speaker 4: set them free. And Aunt Marta is the aunt that

618
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:26,920
Speaker 4: said Jose was also abused.

619
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:34,360
Speaker 2: Right, So Aunt Martha is Jose's sister sister, that's my understanding, Yes, yes,

620
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:39,520
Speaker 2: Aunt Martha, so Marta and Jose. Now the Menanda's father

621
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:43,440
Speaker 2: who'd been slain or murdered by the boys. They're siblings,

622
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:46,279
Speaker 2: and then they have a mother and that mother is

623
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:51,879
Speaker 2: sexually abusing Jose aunt Mark deceased dad, and then that

624
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:56,440
Speaker 2: deceased dad, previously to his death by his sons, was

625
00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:58,279
Speaker 2: molesting them.

626
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:02,920
Speaker 4: And they wrote a letter to the cousin, MARTA's son Andy,

627
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:06,520
Speaker 4: prior to the murders letting him know, hey, this is

628
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:08,959
Speaker 4: going on in our life, like yep, you know.

629
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:11,839
Speaker 2: And that's the letter that of course Robert really has

630
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:16,279
Speaker 2: to Robert. Goodness, I mean, yours a procredible work he's done,

631
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:17,920
Speaker 2: Roberts Robert might.

632
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:20,800
Speaker 4: Be the reason, one of the reasons and one of

633
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:23,799
Speaker 4: the major reasons that this is all happening, especially this

634
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:25,400
Speaker 4: habeas corpus problem.

635
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:26,400
Speaker 2: That's incredible.

636
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, it's just it's a letter founding that because

637
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:31,880
Speaker 5: Robert rand has stayed in touch with the family and

638
00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:34,800
Speaker 5: was that Aunt Martha's house, and right there.

639
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:37,720
Speaker 2: What a tough spot. You know, I would hold a secret,

640
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:40,080
Speaker 2: would take that very seriously when I was growing up,

641
00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:42,640
Speaker 2: that dirty secrets like this, But like you know, when

642
00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 2: someone shares something with you, you hold it very coveted.

643
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:46,719
Speaker 2: What a burden to.

644
00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:50,600
Speaker 4: Bear yeah, I can't imagine. I don't know if we hence,

645
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:52,279
Speaker 4: I don't know if we have time for this. But

646
00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:55,160
Speaker 4: we had a call and unfortunately that a drop. His

647
00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:59,400
Speaker 4: name was Leo. I am sorry Leo, and he wanted

648
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:02,880
Speaker 4: to know. According to the control room, he asked, if

649
00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:06,320
Speaker 4: this case were to happen today, what kind of impact

650
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:07,920
Speaker 4: would social media have on it?

651
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:08,640
Speaker 3: Now?

652
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:10,080
Speaker 4: I thought that was a really good question.

653
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:14,040
Speaker 2: Well, social media today also had a really big impact

654
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 2: on even these recent developments decades later, right, because remember

655
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:20,880
Speaker 2: there was like a resurgence of all things Menendez brothers,

656
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:24,200
Speaker 2: post to the documentary, post the script the scripted series

657
00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 2: was a little like erotic but like it. Regardless like

658
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 2: post that, there did seem to be this like TikTok

659
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:34,759
Speaker 2: praise for the Menendas, Free the Menendez What a great question, Leo.

660
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:38,000
Speaker 2: I would imagine it would have had a big impact. Yeah,

661
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:42,600
Speaker 2: I like the pleasure, the pressure exactly. Well, listen, we're

662
00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 2: going to be right back. There's more of this to come.

663
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:47,400
Speaker 2: We also want to break down this this recent development

664
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:51,040
Speaker 2: with this dentist who's standing trial for killing his wife.

665
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:53,680
Speaker 2: This is true crime tonight. We're talking true crime all

666
00:40:53,719 --> 00:41:06,240
Speaker 2: the time. Welcome back to true crime Tonight on iHeartRadio,

667
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:09,560
Speaker 2: We're talking true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker,

668
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:11,560
Speaker 2: and I head of KT Studios, where we get to

669
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:15,120
Speaker 2: make true crime podcasts and documentaries, and I get to

670
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:19,000
Speaker 2: be here every night with Body Movin, our crime analyst.

671
00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:23,080
Speaker 2: You'll also remember her from Netflix's Emmy Award winning documentary

672
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:27,400
Speaker 2: Don't f With Cats. And also Courtney Armstrong, producer and

673
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:31,120
Speaker 2: crime expert, also the voice of so many of our podcasts,

674
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:34,799
Speaker 2: the Piked and Massacre and The Idaho Massacre and many

675
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:37,840
Speaker 2: many more and more need more to come, so listen.

676
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 2: We've been talking a lot about the Menandez Brothers, but

677
00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:45,560
Speaker 2: also switching gears. The Idaho Killer. I guess we can

678
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:50,600
Speaker 2: really officially say Brian Coberger, the murderer and killer of

679
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:54,680
Speaker 2: four incredible Idaho students, was in court today. There was

680
00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:58,440
Speaker 2: a hearing and essentially the gag order has been lifted.

681
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:01,040
Speaker 2: So also we'll get to that in a moment. But

682
00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 2: later in the show, we're also digging into this dentist

683
00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:07,440
Speaker 2: who's now standing trial for allegedly killing his wife with

684
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:13,040
Speaker 2: arsenic and eyedrops. Plenty to discuss on that one, so Idaho.

685
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:15,560
Speaker 2: Obviously this is a case that it's incredibly close to

686
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:19,399
Speaker 2: our hearts, you know, first and foremost, we're so with

687
00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:20,839
Speaker 2: the victims' families.

688
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:21,279
Speaker 3: We know.

689
00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:24,520
Speaker 2: Just it was a zoom today, which was kind of

690
00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 2: jarring for me personally. We just finished up the documentary

691
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:31,840
Speaker 2: airing on Peacock. I hope you'll watch it, and just

692
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:36,239
Speaker 2: seeing Brian Coberger, knowing now what he has done, by

693
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:39,920
Speaker 2: his own admission, sitting on his zoom in some like

694
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:44,440
Speaker 2: random maroon like sweatshirt. He kind of looked like he

695
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:48,840
Speaker 2: was just at like some ordinary job interview vibe, not

696
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:53,279
Speaker 2: saying a word. It seemed so basic, and I don't know,

697
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:57,279
Speaker 2: it just made me enraged. And having watched it all day,

698
00:42:57,320 --> 00:43:00,239
Speaker 2: we were texting one another and I guess I got

699
00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:01,799
Speaker 2: to ask, what do you guys think?

700
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:02,200
Speaker 4: Body?

701
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 2: You're up first?

702
00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:06,440
Speaker 4: You know, see, we were texting earlier and I sent

703
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:09,000
Speaker 4: a screenshot of this and I was like, and I

704
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:13,080
Speaker 4: was like, the little like vomited mojis. You know, yeah, it.

705
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:14,880
Speaker 2: Was so maddening. It is.

706
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:18,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was very weird. Well, so the judge, Judge Hitler,

707
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:22,600
Speaker 4: has lifted the non dissemination order in the Brian Coberger case.

708
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:25,279
Speaker 4: Now you know there will be no trial, so there's

709
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:28,360
Speaker 4: no need to have it. After pleading not guilty for years,

710
00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:30,399
Speaker 4: you know, the last two and a half years, he's

711
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:32,920
Speaker 4: been saying he's not guilty, even going so far as

712
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:34,960
Speaker 4: to say it wasn't me, but it might have been

713
00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:38,479
Speaker 4: these four people, right like, yeah, all this drawn out,

714
00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:41,799
Speaker 4: and now he's taking this plea deal saying that he

715
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:45,880
Speaker 4: intentionally killed you know, these four precious souls and in

716
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:48,600
Speaker 4: exchange for the state dropping the death penalty. That's just

717
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:51,799
Speaker 4: like a brief summary. So last couple of days, the

718
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:55,160
Speaker 4: prosecution withdrew their opposition after acknowledging there will be no

719
00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:57,560
Speaker 4: trial and there's like no need to protect like the

720
00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:01,799
Speaker 4: jury pool. The judge said that's fine, and they're going

721
00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:04,600
Speaker 4: to Basically what it boils down to is the judge

722
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:09,520
Speaker 4: has released the people who couldn't speak to be allowed

723
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:12,320
Speaker 4: to speak. So that would be like, for instance, Chief Fry,

724
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:14,880
Speaker 4: Chief Fry would now be free to speak if he

725
00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:20,240
Speaker 4: so chose people like that. The documents will remain sealed

726
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:26,560
Speaker 4: until after the sentencing on the twenty third, but he's

727
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:30,160
Speaker 4: going to start redacting some of those sealed documents to

728
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:33,240
Speaker 4: be unsealed, and it's going to start from the newest

729
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:36,360
Speaker 4: going back to the oldest. So he's going to start

730
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:40,360
Speaker 4: from now going back, and it could take many, many months.

731
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:43,640
Speaker 4: So we're not really expecting to get anything anytime soon.

732
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:45,279
Speaker 4: There's not going to be like a big document dump,

733
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:48,040
Speaker 4: I don't think. However, I do think there might be

734
00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:50,279
Speaker 4: some interviews coming up with some of the people that

735
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:53,080
Speaker 4: have been gagged. It is important to note that the

736
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:57,680
Speaker 4: defense filed emotion I think it was yesterday in opposition

737
00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:02,400
Speaker 4: they did not want this gag lifted. They said, basically,

738
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 4: what it boils down to is that things happen. It's

739
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:10,160
Speaker 4: sentencing and if something to you know, inflammatory, happens in

740
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:13,640
Speaker 4: an interview or comes out in the media, it could

741
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:16,919
Speaker 4: inflame tensions even more and put Brian Coberger at risk.

742
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:19,239
Speaker 4: Who cares?

743
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:21,880
Speaker 2: I think I shouldn't say that. I mean, I'm sorry,

744
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:24,560
Speaker 2: looking No, you're right, you're right though I know you're right,

745
00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:27,760
Speaker 2: but no, no, I mean, yeah, really.

746
00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:29,719
Speaker 4: Get does he still get a vote? But does he

747
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:30,680
Speaker 4: still get a vote?

748
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:34,239
Speaker 5: At risk? Before the sentencing? But what am I not

749
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:35,840
Speaker 5: understanding because not for nothing that.

750
00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:39,120
Speaker 2: He's not doing anything come out later?

751
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:41,480
Speaker 6: What is the difference because.

752
00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:45,520
Speaker 4: The parents that let's just say, for instance, the parents

753
00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:49,680
Speaker 4: and people most affected by this these murders won't be

754
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:53,240
Speaker 4: face to face with him without bar being in between

755
00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:56,480
Speaker 4: them physical danger. Do you guys remember the victim impact

756
00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:58,000
Speaker 4: statements for Jeffrey Dahmer.

757
00:45:58,200 --> 00:45:59,640
Speaker 2: Of course, I think it was.

758
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:01,680
Speaker 4: The mother or the sister of one of the victims

759
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:02,680
Speaker 4: almost attacked him.

760
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:05,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm by the what by the way, who didn't

761
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:06,560
Speaker 2: relate you?

762
00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:07,440
Speaker 4: Possibly?

763
00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:10,760
Speaker 2: But I don't care where you stand on law and justice.

764
00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:15,600
Speaker 2: If Jeffrey Dahmer ate your sibling or your child. Having

765
00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:18,160
Speaker 2: to be in a courtroom, and I'm not being facetious

766
00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:20,920
Speaker 2: when I say this, being in the same room breathing

767
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:24,719
Speaker 2: the air, the same air as the person who took

768
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:26,960
Speaker 2: the life of someone you love so much, that is

769
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:29,480
Speaker 2: a tough spot. Yes to your point, but like, let

770
00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:31,319
Speaker 2: him have it, let him at it. If he's not

771
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:34,520
Speaker 2: going to give an allocation, and actually an allocation just

772
00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:38,239
Speaker 2: for anyone who's not aware, that's basically a trade, right

773
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:43,880
Speaker 2: like Brian Colberger would be basically forced to give real

774
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:46,960
Speaker 2: details about the who, what, where, why and when or

775
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:48,879
Speaker 2: what led up to it. What was the day, where

776
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:50,520
Speaker 2: is the weapon? What what what? What?

777
00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:50,680
Speaker 6: What?

778
00:46:50,719 --> 00:46:55,000
Speaker 2: We all have questions, the families have questions, and typically

779
00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:59,480
Speaker 2: an allocution would be used as a bargaining chip for

780
00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:03,040
Speaker 2: a plead. So you're not going to die by a

781
00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:06,680
Speaker 2: firing squad, perhaps, but in exchange for that, you're not

782
00:47:06,719 --> 00:47:08,719
Speaker 2: going to have a death sentence. But what you're gonna

783
00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:11,319
Speaker 2: have to do is share some of the details that

784
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:16,200
Speaker 2: we've been wasting our time chasing, so that maybe families

785
00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:21,320
Speaker 2: can have some semblance of closure, and maybe other humans

786
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:23,920
Speaker 2: in the world, male or female, could maybe learned something

787
00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:27,520
Speaker 2: from this psychopath about what to look for in the world.

788
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:30,160
Speaker 2: But now this guy's like, mum's the word. I see

789
00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:32,520
Speaker 2: him on a zoom today, I'm like, is he just

790
00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:36,120
Speaker 2: sitting there as though he's like a guest on a zoom?

791
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:39,120
Speaker 5: He looked like advertising executive.

792
00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:40,560
Speaker 4: He looked like he exactly.

793
00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:42,560
Speaker 2: I was like, he looks like he's been invited to

794
00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:45,200
Speaker 2: a regular zoom at the office here, you know, at

795
00:47:45,239 --> 00:47:46,319
Speaker 2: any of the zooms that we.

796
00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:47,560
Speaker 4: All do all day.

797
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:50,480
Speaker 2: And it's just really upsetting. I think the allocation thing

798
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:52,800
Speaker 2: is really sickening. And if somebody wants to take him out.

799
00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:55,400
Speaker 4: I took it a little different. Sorry, I'm sorry, I no,

800
00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:57,600
Speaker 4: I so appreciate your perspective, but I took it a

801
00:47:57,640 --> 00:48:02,440
Speaker 4: little different. I enjoyed seeing him in that McDonald's looking

802
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:07,600
Speaker 4: sweatshirt in that plain, horrible looking room with it basically

803
00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:10,560
Speaker 4: you know, the titles of everybody's names at the bottom,

804
00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:13,239
Speaker 4: and his just said eighty a Ada County, eighty A.

805
00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:17,040
Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, Ada County jail, and the microphone was muted.

806
00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:19,400
Speaker 4: I loved it. I was like, he's not getting the recognition,

807
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:21,760
Speaker 4: and he just he just was staring at the camera

808
00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:24,480
Speaker 4: like I don't even think he was blinking like it

809
00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:26,760
Speaker 4: was I'm seeing.

810
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:28,520
Speaker 6: I did not period.

811
00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:32,840
Speaker 4: Also, I'm just saying I enjoyed seeing his identity ripped

812
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:34,600
Speaker 4: from him, is what I'm saying. I would like to

813
00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:38,000
Speaker 4: see him Hannibal Lecter style. Well night on the twenty

814
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:42,440
Speaker 4: and on the twenty third. He's not going to be

815
00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:44,359
Speaker 4: able to wear any of his fancy clothes. He's going

816
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:46,719
Speaker 4: to be in an orange jumpsuit or a maroon sweatshirt

817
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:48,960
Speaker 4: whatever they have, I don't know what they are better,

818
00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:52,040
Speaker 4: and he's going to be probably handcuffed and shackled.

819
00:48:52,239 --> 00:48:54,239
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, why was he not handcuffed and shackled. He

820
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:56,359
Speaker 2: just looked like it was a casual day at the office. Well,

821
00:48:56,360 --> 00:48:57,879
Speaker 2: we don't know that he wasn't he was, We didn't.

822
00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:00,160
Speaker 2: We just saw his face. He didn't look stressed, and

823
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:01,160
Speaker 2: I need him to be.

824
00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:03,320
Speaker 4: Like I'm dressed. We're getting little heated.

825
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:06,200
Speaker 2: I'm sorry stress and as well above, I shouldn't be

826
00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:08,080
Speaker 2: wishing anything like that. And I don't mean too. I'm

827
00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:10,720
Speaker 2: not related to him. I just it's just no, in general,

828
00:49:10,719 --> 00:49:14,960
Speaker 2: this is not just Brian Coburger. It's anybody who has said, yes, Dahmer,

829
00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:17,560
Speaker 2: oh my god, you know, people who have taken the

830
00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:20,880
Speaker 2: lives of loved ones so viciously, and you know, to

831
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:22,960
Speaker 2: get up there. We saw this in the piked and massacre,

832
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:26,759
Speaker 2: sitting in there and watching the people that you know,

833
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:30,200
Speaker 2: we've really grown to love in a town have to

834
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:33,359
Speaker 2: sit and share air with the person who took their

835
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:35,880
Speaker 2: loved ones lives and by the way, so palously like

836
00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:38,239
Speaker 2: h It keeps me up to this night.

837
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:40,480
Speaker 4: And I'm not even related to them. No, I can

838
00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:42,800
Speaker 4: only imagine we are all with you one hundred percent,

839
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:45,080
Speaker 4: Like I think all of us have some kind of

840
00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:51,640
Speaker 4: strange affection for this town. These people, these families, you know,

841
00:49:51,719 --> 00:49:54,520
Speaker 4: country does the whole world country. Yeah, I'm not saying

842
00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:59,160
Speaker 4: us specifically, like everybody. We love these people and we

843
00:49:59,239 --> 00:50:03,000
Speaker 4: care about them, and we're angry about what happened to

844
00:50:03,080 --> 00:50:06,799
Speaker 4: these young, bright souls that had an amazing future ahead

845
00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:10,680
Speaker 4: of them, you know, and it's infuriating, it's absolutely infuriating.

846
00:50:11,040 --> 00:50:14,680
Speaker 4: But I kind of wanted to touch base on some questions.

847
00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:17,280
Speaker 4: A lot of people have questions because, like the judge

848
00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:21,080
Speaker 4: mentioned the fact that Brian Coper could possibly appeal, and

849
00:50:21,080 --> 00:50:23,960
Speaker 4: that like send into an uproar. Now, you know, I

850
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:25,800
Speaker 4: was thinking about this when we were talking about Menendez.

851
00:50:26,120 --> 00:50:29,640
Speaker 4: They got life without parole, right, Well, guess what they're

852
00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:32,880
Speaker 4: on proy They have a parole hearing coming, Like anything

853
00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:33,400
Speaker 4: can happen.

854
00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:38,239
Speaker 2: Jake Wagner back to that guy's that clown is getting out.

855
00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:41,040
Speaker 2: They're like, yeah, well we'll cross that bridge. Maybe the

856
00:50:41,040 --> 00:50:43,200
Speaker 2: parole things a little bit too much, Maybe he should

857
00:50:43,239 --> 00:50:46,880
Speaker 2: have parole parole. This guy has admitted to Katie killing

858
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:51,040
Speaker 2: you know, multiple people in cold blood, one of whom

859
00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:54,839
Speaker 2: he shared a child with. And they're like, well a second.

860
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:57,480
Speaker 4: Thought, maybe maybe well what's.

861
00:50:57,480 --> 00:51:00,439
Speaker 2: A cross that for a life thing? We'll worry about

862
00:51:00,440 --> 00:51:02,240
Speaker 2: the parole thing. Later are you eating?

863
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:05,400
Speaker 5: So you know, I'm so curious, what do you guys think?

864
00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:10,480
Speaker 5: What does everyone think about sort of changing, like when

865
00:51:10,520 --> 00:51:14,680
Speaker 5: things just change and you know you have life without

866
00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:17,920
Speaker 5: the possibility of parole. And in the instant Stephanie was

867
00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:21,600
Speaker 5: just mentioning with Jake Wagner. Then another judge comes in

868
00:51:21,680 --> 00:51:24,640
Speaker 5: and is like, well, maybe it will be different. We

869
00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:26,319
Speaker 5: want to hear your thoughts on that eighty to eight

870
00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:28,279
Speaker 5: to three to one crime or you can always send

871
00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:31,640
Speaker 5: us a talkback either way changing sentences.

872
00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:33,440
Speaker 4: I wanted to kind of touch based on some of

873
00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:37,160
Speaker 4: those things, so we our producer reached out to Jarrett Farantino,

874
00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:40,319
Speaker 4: our friend. He's a veteran trial attorney who's handled some

875
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:44,640
Speaker 4: of Pennsylvania's like most high profile murder cases. He's now

876
00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:47,720
Speaker 4: a national legal analyst and true crime expert. He also

877
00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:52,480
Speaker 4: co hosts the YouTube series Prime Time Crime and he's

878
00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:55,600
Speaker 4: also the host of the podcast True Crime Boss. He

879
00:51:55,680 --> 00:51:57,600
Speaker 4: answered some of those questions for us, because you know,

880
00:51:57,640 --> 00:51:59,560
Speaker 4: we all have questions, right and here we go. I'm

881
00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:02,400
Speaker 4: just gonna go through them real quick. Number one, what

882
00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:05,960
Speaker 4: is Jared's take on the gag order being lifted is

883
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:09,400
Speaker 4: a common and he has two kind of part answers,

884
00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:12,239
Speaker 4: and he says, usually judges keep the gag order in

885
00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:16,520
Speaker 4: effect until sentences, until sentence, because most judges view cases

886
00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:20,640
Speaker 4: as still pending until sentencing itself, all right, so anything

887
00:52:20,680 --> 00:52:24,480
Speaker 4: can change. Maybe a plea gets withdrawn, I'm not sure,

888
00:52:24,680 --> 00:52:27,520
Speaker 4: but until sentencing is concluded, they usually leave it in place.

889
00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:31,360
Speaker 4: The second part, Jared expressed that there is no harm

890
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:34,279
Speaker 4: in keeping it for a few more days, and that

891
00:52:34,440 --> 00:52:38,319
Speaker 4: theoretically Brian Coberger could rescind his plea and still go

892
00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:41,480
Speaker 4: to trial, at which point the gag order being lifted

893
00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:43,880
Speaker 4: would impact the ability for a fair trial.

894
00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:48,320
Speaker 5: So yes, that's a really yeah, that's a really great

895
00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:49,320
Speaker 5: legal point.

896
00:52:49,880 --> 00:52:53,040
Speaker 4: Right. So if Brian Coberger, for whatever reason, is able

897
00:52:53,080 --> 00:52:56,000
Speaker 4: to withdraw his plea now that the gag order has

898
00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:59,080
Speaker 4: been lifted, say Chief Fry went on dateline tonight, Not

899
00:52:59,160 --> 00:53:01,359
Speaker 4: that he is, but say he and was like blah

900
00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:03,279
Speaker 4: blah blah blah. You know he did all this, it's

901
00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:07,600
Speaker 4: terrible whatever. Now the jury pool is one hundred percent tainted, right,

902
00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:12,160
Speaker 4: and it could affect So Jared's basically saying, eh, he

903
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:15,000
Speaker 4: probably should have waited, but he's not questioning the judge.

904
00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:15,840
Speaker 6: He's not like dis of.

905
00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:20,160
Speaker 4: Course he's the best. But the insight, there's a bunch

906
00:53:20,200 --> 00:53:24,560
Speaker 4: of more questions. It's we want to hear all of them. Well.

907
00:53:24,680 --> 00:53:28,960
Speaker 4: Another one is the case that's being referred to about

908
00:53:29,120 --> 00:53:32,920
Speaker 4: the possible appeal. The judge said because of Garza the

909
00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:36,680
Speaker 4: Idaho in the Supreme Court case, they're referencing that Brian

910
00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:39,359
Speaker 4: Koberger will still be able to appeal, and that sent

911
00:53:39,400 --> 00:53:40,600
Speaker 4: everybody into a frenzy.

912
00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:41,040
Speaker 2: Right.

913
00:53:42,320 --> 00:53:44,440
Speaker 4: Just so if you're just joining us, we're kind of

914
00:53:44,440 --> 00:53:48,080
Speaker 4: going over some questions that I saw and you know

915
00:53:48,120 --> 00:53:50,719
Speaker 4: that we have been seeing on the internet about the

916
00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:54,360
Speaker 4: gag order being lifted. And just as a recap, we

917
00:53:54,440 --> 00:53:57,080
Speaker 4: got with Jared Garantino. He's our friend and he's a

918
00:53:57,160 --> 00:54:02,080
Speaker 4: he's a former homicide prosecutor. He is the co host

919
00:54:02,239 --> 00:54:05,000
Speaker 4: of the YouTube series Primetime Crime and the host of

920
00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:08,560
Speaker 4: podcast True Crime Boss, and he we asked him some

921
00:54:08,640 --> 00:54:10,480
Speaker 4: questions and number one, I'm just going to go over

922
00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:13,120
Speaker 4: very quickly. Number one, what was his take on the

923
00:54:13,120 --> 00:54:16,040
Speaker 4: gag order being lifted? Is a comment and to summarize

924
00:54:16,080 --> 00:54:19,879
Speaker 4: what he said, he said, not really usually judges keep

925
00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:23,320
Speaker 4: the gag orders in place until sentencing because most judges

926
00:54:23,400 --> 00:54:27,960
Speaker 4: view cases are still pending until sentencing itself. Jared expressed

927
00:54:27,960 --> 00:54:29,759
Speaker 4: that there's no harm in keeping it for a few

928
00:54:29,760 --> 00:54:33,640
Speaker 4: more days. Again, sentencing is in like five days between

929
00:54:33,719 --> 00:54:37,359
Speaker 4: the next yeah, next Wednesday, next week from yesterday, So

930
00:54:37,400 --> 00:54:39,040
Speaker 4: what's the harm in keeping it just for a few

931
00:54:39,080 --> 00:54:42,840
Speaker 4: more days because theoretically Coburger could rescind his plea and

932
00:54:42,880 --> 00:54:44,960
Speaker 4: still go to trial, at which point the gag order

933
00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:49,040
Speaker 4: being lifted could impact the ability for a fair trial

934
00:54:49,040 --> 00:54:49,399
Speaker 4: for him.

935
00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:51,720
Speaker 5: So do you know, can I say one thing body

936
00:54:52,160 --> 00:54:57,280
Speaker 5: you have on that judge Hipler, who does seem actually

937
00:54:57,320 --> 00:55:00,360
Speaker 5: like a real measured guy. Yeah, he sure does something

938
00:55:00,360 --> 00:55:02,000
Speaker 5: that stood out to me, and now I think I

939
00:55:02,080 --> 00:55:05,920
Speaker 5: understand the rationale behind it was that he's vacating the

940
00:55:05,960 --> 00:55:09,759
Speaker 5: gag order. But he's going to do it in batches

941
00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:14,000
Speaker 5: once they're reviewed or the court documents, and that's the

942
00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:16,800
Speaker 5: court document, that's the court documents, so all seals.

943
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:20,240
Speaker 6: He's going to really.

944
00:55:19,760 --> 00:55:23,680
Speaker 4: Going to make sure that there's no like personal information

945
00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:27,560
Speaker 4: in them, like perhaps like a witness's data, birth address,

946
00:55:27,600 --> 00:55:29,520
Speaker 4: you know, things like the public does not need to

947
00:55:29,600 --> 00:55:33,160
Speaker 4: know there's sensitive information in those documents, and there also

948
00:55:33,239 --> 00:55:36,560
Speaker 4: might be information that they just don't want out, so

949
00:55:36,719 --> 00:55:38,840
Speaker 4: it's going to take a really long time. He's starting

950
00:55:39,239 --> 00:55:43,680
Speaker 4: from the most recently filed motions, the sealed motions, redacting

951
00:55:43,719 --> 00:55:48,239
Speaker 4: those and releasing them, and moving to back to you know,

952
00:55:48,520 --> 00:55:51,480
Speaker 4: Brian Kober was arrested December thirtieth or twenty twenty two,

953
00:55:51,880 --> 00:55:53,719
Speaker 4: so he'll go all the way back in time into

954
00:55:53,719 --> 00:55:58,479
Speaker 4: those now. The second question we asked was when Judge

955
00:55:58,560 --> 00:56:03,480
Speaker 4: Hitler was giving his judgment, he mentioned that under Garza

956
00:56:03,560 --> 00:56:07,440
Speaker 4: the Idaho, that Brian Coberg could still have the chance

957
00:56:07,480 --> 00:56:09,839
Speaker 4: for appeal, and that kind of sent everybody into a

958
00:56:09,960 --> 00:56:16,080
Speaker 4: frenzy because we all thought that Brian Coberger is being

959
00:56:16,120 --> 00:56:20,319
Speaker 4: sentenced to prison with life without the possibility of prole

960
00:56:20,719 --> 00:56:23,520
Speaker 4: and he has to waive all the appeals. Well, when

961
00:56:23,560 --> 00:56:26,000
Speaker 4: you say that, it sounds very finite, but it's not

962
00:56:27,200 --> 00:56:29,759
Speaker 4: if what this is, what this means and this is

963
00:56:29,760 --> 00:56:33,600
Speaker 4: according to Jarrett Farantino. Jarrett says that the Supreme Court

964
00:56:33,640 --> 00:56:38,520
Speaker 4: case Garza the Idaho allows anyone to appeal even if

965
00:56:38,560 --> 00:56:42,040
Speaker 4: they waive their right to do so, but they have

966
00:56:42,160 --> 00:56:45,799
Speaker 4: to prove that there was a serious problem with their

967
00:56:45,880 --> 00:56:50,440
Speaker 4: lawyer involved. In the trial. The defendant must show deficient

968
00:56:50,680 --> 00:56:54,880
Speaker 4: performance and resulting prejudice by their own lawyer. And he

969
00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:59,360
Speaker 4: adds he seriously doubts that this is a route Coburger

970
00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:02,400
Speaker 4: could take. We all know Ann Taylor has been an

971
00:57:02,400 --> 00:57:06,719
Speaker 4: incredible lawyer for us, right, yeah, so an incredible waste.

972
00:57:06,440 --> 00:57:09,200
Speaker 2: Of time too. And you know we saw him stand

973
00:57:09,239 --> 00:57:10,120
Speaker 2: there and say.

974
00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:13,520
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, yeah, but that's all yes us, Yes.

975
00:57:13,920 --> 00:57:16,640
Speaker 2: I did it. I did it. I did it. You know, like,

976
00:57:16,760 --> 00:57:18,680
Speaker 2: what could he possibly was he going to do? Take back?

977
00:57:18,760 --> 00:57:21,600
Speaker 2: Now he's going to do take backs? Sorry, I didn't

978
00:57:21,640 --> 00:57:23,800
Speaker 2: mean it. That's a I don't think you can do that.

979
00:57:23,920 --> 00:57:26,240
Speaker 2: And Ann Taylor, you know, like her, hate her, So

980
00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:29,240
Speaker 2: she's not nobody hates you, Antaila, nobody. Of course, she's

981
00:57:29,280 --> 00:57:32,240
Speaker 2: a very respected defense attorney. And you know, with having

982
00:57:32,320 --> 00:57:35,080
Speaker 2: death sentence provisions as an attorney is a very big deal.

983
00:57:35,520 --> 00:57:36,480
Speaker 2: So no joke.

984
00:57:37,280 --> 00:57:41,320
Speaker 4: But you know, you're defending a mass murderer at this point. Well,

985
00:57:41,360 --> 00:57:43,080
Speaker 4: and you know, like we were just talking about the

986
00:57:43,080 --> 00:57:46,600
Speaker 4: Menenda's brothers. They were sentenced to life without the possibility

987
00:57:46,640 --> 00:57:49,280
Speaker 4: of parole, and you know, this is what Steve Consalves

988
00:57:49,280 --> 00:57:51,920
Speaker 4: has been kind of upset about with with this case now,

989
00:57:51,960 --> 00:57:56,400
Speaker 4: Steve Consolves as a reminder, is Kaylee Consalis's father, and

990
00:57:56,440 --> 00:57:58,040
Speaker 4: she is one of the victims. She is one of

991
00:57:58,040 --> 00:58:01,360
Speaker 4: the four students that were murdered by Brian Coberger. I

992
00:58:01,360 --> 00:58:04,479
Speaker 4: can say that confidently now. And you know, his whole

993
00:58:04,480 --> 00:58:07,040
Speaker 4: thing is like, you know, death is final, this isn't

994
00:58:07,200 --> 00:58:09,200
Speaker 4: and that's been his biggest problem. And by the way,

995
00:58:09,240 --> 00:58:11,680
Speaker 4: how you disagree like they don't know? Of course not

996
00:58:11,840 --> 00:58:14,200
Speaker 4: especially when we just spent we just spent an hour

997
00:58:14,280 --> 00:58:16,120
Speaker 4: talking about the Menanda's brothers. Of course not.

998
00:58:16,520 --> 00:58:19,800
Speaker 2: Right, but to that point, I'm just going to go

999
00:58:19,800 --> 00:58:22,400
Speaker 2: on a limb here, just just so let's just say

1000
00:58:22,400 --> 00:58:25,920
Speaker 2: Brian Tomorrow was like, actually, it was not easy being me.

1001
00:58:26,720 --> 00:58:29,760
Speaker 2: It was very, very difficult in fact, and there was

1002
00:58:29,800 --> 00:58:32,480
Speaker 2: all kinds of hideous things that happened to me from here,

1003
00:58:32,600 --> 00:58:36,360
Speaker 2: there and everywhere. And therefore that was not in the

1004
00:58:36,400 --> 00:58:39,000
Speaker 2: trial because it ever came up, or we didn't have

1005
00:58:39,040 --> 00:58:44,040
Speaker 2: a trial because I was somehow pressured to pressure to confess.

1006
00:58:44,400 --> 00:58:48,560
Speaker 2: But really, my origin story is very toward and it

1007
00:58:48,680 --> 00:58:51,560
Speaker 2: might shape how you all will feel about me, So

1008
00:58:52,400 --> 00:58:55,360
Speaker 2: maybe I can get off right.

1009
00:58:55,640 --> 00:58:58,160
Speaker 4: Oh hell no, that's that's kind of all.

1010
00:58:58,360 --> 00:59:01,120
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm paralleling stories here because again this is

1011
00:59:01,160 --> 00:59:03,200
Speaker 2: why I'm very impressionable, because when I'm talking about the

1012
00:59:03,280 --> 00:59:05,880
Speaker 2: men and his brothers with Robert Rand, I'm like.

1013
00:59:05,960 --> 00:59:09,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, they let him free. They should be free immediately tomorrow.

1014
00:59:09,520 --> 00:59:10,400
Speaker 4: It's been too long.

1015
00:59:10,680 --> 00:59:12,920
Speaker 2: And now I'm like, Brian Coberger, that's son of a

1016
00:59:13,040 --> 00:59:15,480
Speaker 2: If he dare say that there is a problem in

1017
00:59:15,520 --> 00:59:18,200
Speaker 2: his childhood that's somehow caused him to murder four people,

1018
00:59:18,320 --> 00:59:21,400
Speaker 2: I would say, throw away the key. Hell is not enough. Well,

1019
00:59:21,440 --> 00:59:23,280
Speaker 2: the big again, I guess I get to what we're

1020
00:59:23,360 --> 00:59:23,920
Speaker 2: cherry picking.

1021
00:59:24,200 --> 00:59:28,160
Speaker 4: The big difference here is that Kaylee Consolve is, Madison Mogan,

1022
00:59:28,680 --> 00:59:32,240
Speaker 4: Xana Kernodle, and Ethan Chapin did not do anything to

1023
00:59:32,280 --> 00:59:34,800
Speaker 4: Brian Coberger to shape his childhood. Well, he might say

1024
00:59:34,840 --> 00:59:35,160
Speaker 4: they did.

1025
00:59:35,520 --> 00:59:37,360
Speaker 2: He was like, you know what I had it to

1026
00:59:37,680 --> 00:59:39,840
Speaker 2: one time. There was a blonde person that was very

1027
00:59:39,920 --> 00:59:43,840
Speaker 2: nasty to me and the blondes and that's it's giving me.

1028
00:59:43,920 --> 00:59:45,160
Speaker 2: It's giving me an urge.

1029
00:59:46,320 --> 00:59:46,480
Speaker 3: You know.

1030
00:59:46,520 --> 00:59:48,800
Speaker 2: I'm just saying, like, where does a line you know,

1031
00:59:48,920 --> 00:59:52,920
Speaker 2: like this is these are insultingly horrible crimes. Again, I'm

1032
00:59:52,960 --> 00:59:54,800
Speaker 2: just seeing it from all sides. I'm like out talking

1033
00:59:54,840 --> 00:59:58,680
Speaker 2: myself right now, devil advocating the devil itself. So I

1034
00:59:58,720 --> 00:59:59,360
Speaker 2: don't mean to.

1035
00:59:59,840 --> 01:00:02,840
Speaker 4: Course, I mean this is and we're all emotionally charging,

1036
01:00:03,040 --> 01:00:06,320
Speaker 4: so emotionally charged by it we are. Yeah, it's upsetting. Yeah,

1037
01:00:06,720 --> 01:00:09,360
Speaker 4: I can definitely see why Steve is upset, is what

1038
01:00:09,400 --> 01:00:12,120
Speaker 4: I'm trying to say. I mean, I certainly can, because

1039
01:00:12,160 --> 01:00:16,600
Speaker 4: this kind of stuff can happen. However, Jarrett, the trial attorney,

1040
01:00:16,800 --> 01:00:20,120
Speaker 4: you know, the prosecutor who has successfully prosecuted homicide cases,

1041
01:00:20,600 --> 01:00:23,400
Speaker 4: says that this is likely not going to be a

1042
01:00:23,440 --> 01:00:26,720
Speaker 4: possibility for Brian Coberger, but it's always you know open.

1043
01:00:27,320 --> 01:00:30,320
Speaker 4: The other question we asked, what will be the most

1044
01:00:30,320 --> 01:00:33,800
Speaker 4: interesting information that the public can expect that will be

1045
01:00:33,880 --> 01:00:36,040
Speaker 4: revealed once reviewed by the judge?

1046
01:00:36,440 --> 01:00:39,520
Speaker 2: Yeah? Right, so what's the question I'm dying to hear it?

1047
01:00:39,880 --> 01:00:43,880
Speaker 4: Well, Jarrett said that evidence the defense. He thinks that

1048
01:00:43,960 --> 01:00:46,080
Speaker 4: the most interesting stuff that will be released is stuff

1049
01:00:46,120 --> 01:00:47,680
Speaker 4: the defense wanted removed.

1050
01:00:48,880 --> 01:00:52,240
Speaker 2: Right, So that's so he's so smart, yeahte the best.

1051
01:00:52,520 --> 01:00:55,120
Speaker 4: So, like, for instance, one of the things that that

1052
01:00:55,200 --> 01:00:56,920
Speaker 4: they wanted removed.

1053
01:00:56,680 --> 01:00:58,640
Speaker 6: Was internet Internet.

1054
01:00:59,360 --> 01:01:02,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh yeah, when he was drugging, Oh hey, it's

1055
01:01:02,480 --> 01:01:06,720
Speaker 2: just some pornography when everyone's drugged and passed out and unable,

1056
01:01:06,760 --> 01:01:09,840
Speaker 2: they're not even alive. Oh okay, that's not a tell.

1057
01:01:10,600 --> 01:01:11,640
Speaker 6: And it's a tell.

1058
01:01:11,760 --> 01:01:14,800
Speaker 2: So if anybody you love is watching pornography where the

1059
01:01:15,000 --> 01:01:19,560
Speaker 2: person who is being sexualized is drugged and passed out

1060
01:01:19,720 --> 01:01:22,320
Speaker 2: or dead, that is a tell. That is a very

1061
01:01:22,320 --> 01:01:25,200
Speaker 2: big red flag. So just so we're all hearing it.

1062
01:01:25,360 --> 01:01:28,760
Speaker 2: If that is something that you're doing, let's get some

1063
01:01:28,880 --> 01:01:33,040
Speaker 2: talking to for that, because it's not it's not okay, right,

1064
01:01:33,920 --> 01:01:36,040
Speaker 2: And also if somebody you know is doing that, it's

1065
01:01:36,080 --> 01:01:38,600
Speaker 2: also not okay, and let's get some help. Again.

1066
01:01:38,680 --> 01:01:42,560
Speaker 4: I'm being a little nuts. Sorry, you're emotionally charged, and Stephanie,

1067
01:01:42,600 --> 01:01:45,840
Speaker 4: it's okay, we all are. I mean, I think Courtney

1068
01:01:45,880 --> 01:01:48,640
Speaker 4: feels the same way. I mean, we've all talked about

1069
01:01:48,760 --> 01:01:51,000
Speaker 4: this case for the last two and a half years

1070
01:01:51,720 --> 01:01:55,400
Speaker 4: and we have, you know, feel sucker punched by so

1071
01:01:55,560 --> 01:01:57,680
Speaker 4: fooled out by the way. How pretty is Courtney. I'm

1072
01:01:57,680 --> 01:01:58,400
Speaker 4: strong in this believe.

1073
01:01:58,520 --> 01:01:58,800
Speaker 3: I know.

1074
01:02:01,520 --> 01:02:04,480
Speaker 2: You're a shining star and a very dark conversation.

1075
01:02:04,880 --> 01:02:05,520
Speaker 6: Well, thank you.

1076
01:02:06,120 --> 01:02:10,680
Speaker 5: I did want beautiful body. So you mentioned Steve Gonsalvez.

1077
01:02:11,360 --> 01:02:15,640
Speaker 5: Kaylea Gonsalvez's father's perspective, which is important to note. I

1078
01:02:15,680 --> 01:02:19,600
Speaker 5: think it's also important to note that several other of

1079
01:02:19,640 --> 01:02:24,680
Speaker 5: the victim's families feel very differently and are happy to

1080
01:02:24,760 --> 01:02:26,680
Speaker 5: not go through the trial.

1081
01:02:26,760 --> 01:02:29,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I don't blame and have to relive and

1082
01:02:29,360 --> 01:02:30,160
Speaker 4: to get their lives here.

1083
01:02:30,200 --> 01:02:33,080
Speaker 2: And we should reference the covid family too, like let

1084
01:02:33,120 --> 01:02:35,520
Speaker 2: them like move on with their lives too. They've also

1085
01:02:35,560 --> 01:02:37,440
Speaker 2: been right away in this mess.

1086
01:02:37,760 --> 01:02:41,440
Speaker 4: So the other the last question was do the families

1087
01:02:41,640 --> 01:02:44,680
Speaker 4: know the info that has thus far been under the

1088
01:02:44,720 --> 01:02:47,720
Speaker 4: gag order? You know, Steve Gonsolves has been very vocal

1089
01:02:48,320 --> 01:02:50,640
Speaker 4: about you know, he goes on YouTube channels, He goes

1090
01:02:50,680 --> 01:02:53,959
Speaker 4: on like News Nations and CNNs and you know, court

1091
01:02:54,000 --> 01:02:57,080
Speaker 4: TVs and all these shows, and he talks about things

1092
01:02:57,120 --> 01:03:00,680
Speaker 4: and he drops little tidbits of information, right, And so

1093
01:03:00,760 --> 01:03:05,320
Speaker 4: people are wondering, does the family already know the stuff

1094
01:03:05,320 --> 01:03:07,120
Speaker 4: that's been under gag And the answer to that, and

1095
01:03:07,160 --> 01:03:09,880
Speaker 4: I've actually been saying this too, is that no, they're

1096
01:03:09,920 --> 01:03:13,560
Speaker 4: considered members of the public. However, I do know like

1097
01:03:13,600 --> 01:03:17,400
Speaker 4: that Steve Gonsalves has hired like private attorneys and he

1098
01:03:17,520 --> 01:03:21,520
Speaker 4: has worked with you know, production teams and authors and

1099
01:03:21,560 --> 01:03:24,920
Speaker 4: whatnot that are doing intensive research into the backstory of

1100
01:03:24,960 --> 01:03:28,600
Speaker 4: like Brian Coberger and this crime in particular, where he

1101
01:03:28,720 --> 01:03:32,520
Speaker 4: has gotten bits and pieces of information. Now how much

1102
01:03:32,520 --> 01:03:36,080
Speaker 4: of it is true, I don't know, but thus far, no,

1103
01:03:36,400 --> 01:03:38,600
Speaker 4: they do not know what's been under gag. It's all

1104
01:03:38,640 --> 01:03:41,280
Speaker 4: they're considered members of the public. So those are the

1105
01:03:41,360 --> 01:03:43,120
Speaker 4: questions we asked, and those are the answers.

1106
01:03:43,240 --> 01:03:45,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm gonna have sits like very close obviously in

1107
01:03:45,520 --> 01:03:50,520
Speaker 2: the documentary. Stephen Gonzalvez Junior, also known as Gonzo, is

1108
01:03:50,600 --> 01:03:52,680
Speaker 2: on our doc too, and like, look, we should all

1109
01:03:52,760 --> 01:03:57,520
Speaker 2: have a brother and a father that are that riled up, right, Okay, yeah,

1110
01:03:57,600 --> 01:04:00,400
Speaker 2: do something like that to my family. You think I

1111
01:04:00,440 --> 01:04:04,800
Speaker 2: won't be screaming from the rooftops, I you know, woof yeah,

1112
01:04:04,840 --> 01:04:07,480
Speaker 2: I know. I And again this is like I think

1113
01:04:07,520 --> 01:04:11,520
Speaker 2: we're all so psychotically attached to this case, not just

1114
01:04:11,680 --> 01:04:13,760
Speaker 2: the three of us, of course we are as well,

1115
01:04:14,120 --> 01:04:17,360
Speaker 2: but just like you know, everybody is, who's you know,

1116
01:04:17,480 --> 01:04:21,400
Speaker 2: hearing our voices right now because it's so emblematic of

1117
01:04:22,160 --> 01:04:24,840
Speaker 2: real grief. You know, nobody wants to be in that seat,

1118
01:04:25,040 --> 01:04:28,200
Speaker 2: and we really just hope that they're feeling our love

1119
01:04:28,440 --> 01:04:31,120
Speaker 2: because you know, we have to look out for each

1120
01:04:31,160 --> 01:04:34,440
Speaker 2: other and like this kind of stuff cannot continue. And

1121
01:04:34,480 --> 01:04:36,720
Speaker 2: Brian Coburger does not get a vote in mind.

1122
01:04:36,720 --> 01:04:38,880
Speaker 4: And I'm going to say, I'm grateful for the plea,

1123
01:04:39,320 --> 01:04:42,640
Speaker 4: and I'm grateful for the plea because the surviving roommates

1124
01:04:43,160 --> 01:04:45,840
Speaker 4: and you know Hunter who was a hero that day

1125
01:04:45,840 --> 01:04:48,720
Speaker 4: and found things, they're not going to have to get

1126
01:04:48,800 --> 01:04:49,600
Speaker 4: up there and testify.

1127
01:04:49,840 --> 01:04:51,200
Speaker 2: So I agree that's a fair point.

1128
01:04:52,040 --> 01:04:52,520
Speaker 6: That's right.

1129
01:04:52,960 --> 01:04:55,800
Speaker 5: Well, listen, stick around. We have a lot more. We're

1130
01:04:55,840 --> 01:04:59,760
Speaker 5: going to be talking about what's doing in Colorado.

1131
01:04:59,280 --> 01:05:02,080
Speaker 6: With the dent this dentist, yeah, who was.

1132
01:05:02,000 --> 01:05:05,880
Speaker 5: Accused of murdering his wife, and we're going to dig

1133
01:05:05,920 --> 01:05:08,720
Speaker 5: into all of those details. Give us a call. We're

1134
01:05:08,760 --> 01:05:12,120
Speaker 5: at eighty eight three to one crime Keep it here

1135
01:05:12,280 --> 01:05:14,840
Speaker 5: on True Crime tonight.

1136
01:05:23,520 --> 01:05:25,360
Speaker 2: We've gotten a little bit heated and we're taken it

1137
01:05:25,360 --> 01:05:27,480
Speaker 2: down a notch because we're going to talk about the

1138
01:05:27,600 --> 01:05:32,720
Speaker 2: dentist in Colorado accused of poisoning his wife allegedly, allegedly

1139
01:05:32,760 --> 01:05:37,800
Speaker 2: allegedly with eyedrops and some sort of cyanide, and it

1140
01:05:37,840 --> 01:05:41,960
Speaker 2: all sounds very, very terrible. That trial is officially underway.

1141
01:05:42,240 --> 01:05:44,120
Speaker 2: By the way, they were married for what twenty three

1142
01:05:44,200 --> 01:05:47,480
Speaker 2: years and had six children together. You'll be shocked to

1143
01:05:47,520 --> 01:05:51,080
Speaker 2: know that he had met somebody else and they had

1144
01:05:51,120 --> 01:05:55,720
Speaker 2: been texting back and forth. In fact, this very unknowing woman.

1145
01:05:56,360 --> 01:06:00,040
Speaker 2: I've seen an interview with her in many places. I

1146
01:06:00,080 --> 01:06:03,400
Speaker 2: want to go visit him because unbeknownst to her that,

1147
01:06:03,680 --> 01:06:05,640
Speaker 2: you know, he had a wife in the hospital who

1148
01:06:05,720 --> 01:06:10,320
Speaker 2: has been being poisoned allegedly by him. So it's one

1149
01:06:10,320 --> 01:06:13,880
Speaker 2: of those poor tales where there were some financial stresses

1150
01:06:14,040 --> 01:06:15,280
Speaker 2: allegedly by the family.

1151
01:06:15,960 --> 01:06:17,440
Speaker 4: Perhaps after twenty.

1152
01:06:17,200 --> 01:06:20,440
Speaker 2: Three years and his wife, you know, baring him six

1153
01:06:20,840 --> 01:06:26,320
Speaker 2: children and him you know, wanting to explore a different relationship.

1154
01:06:26,760 --> 01:06:29,440
Speaker 2: He claims she was, you know, just depressed and just

1155
01:06:29,480 --> 01:06:32,720
Speaker 2: not herself and maybe took her own life, or if

1156
01:06:33,440 --> 01:06:36,680
Speaker 2: he took her life. Maybe I'm getting this backward. I

1157
01:06:36,720 --> 01:06:41,680
Speaker 2: think the stick is he only killed her because he

1158
01:06:41,720 --> 01:06:45,360
Speaker 2: did not want her to die without him, So for

1159
01:06:45,440 --> 01:06:46,920
Speaker 2: sure saying that riddle backward.

1160
01:06:48,560 --> 01:06:52,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's really has been sort of dueling depictions of

1161
01:06:52,680 --> 01:06:54,720
Speaker 5: the marriage, which we're going to get into in a second.

1162
01:06:54,800 --> 01:06:58,120
Speaker 6: But there is a talkback that we wanted to go to.

1163
01:06:58,560 --> 01:07:02,480
Speaker 9: Great Stephanie and Body. I listen every day. I love

1164
01:07:02,520 --> 01:07:05,680
Speaker 9: the show Courtney and Stephanie. I've listened since the Pike

1165
01:07:05,720 --> 01:07:09,760
Speaker 9: County massacres, and your voices are super soothing. I've been

1166
01:07:09,760 --> 01:07:11,840
Speaker 9: thinking a lot about this grooming thing, and I think

1167
01:07:12,120 --> 01:07:15,040
Speaker 9: what's applicable is coercive control, which is used a lot

1168
01:07:15,080 --> 01:07:19,560
Speaker 9: in domestic violence cases. Patterner acts of assault, threats, humiliation,

1169
01:07:20,360 --> 01:07:26,200
Speaker 9: used to intimidate, abuse, humiliate, or punish your victim.

1170
01:07:26,480 --> 01:07:29,320
Speaker 2: I think that covers it. By the way, dead on,

1171
01:07:29,720 --> 01:07:32,080
Speaker 2: you know, this is quite a great talk back, Thank

1172
01:07:32,080 --> 01:07:34,160
Speaker 2: you for calling. This is in reference to the Gleen

1173
01:07:34,240 --> 01:07:37,840
Speaker 2: Maxwell conversation we were having last night just about grooming,

1174
01:07:38,080 --> 01:07:40,600
Speaker 2: and you know, Body had brought up a great point

1175
01:07:40,720 --> 01:07:42,920
Speaker 2: that you know, grooming as a term should really be

1176
01:07:43,040 --> 01:07:48,040
Speaker 2: used for underage children, and I wasn't totally totally there yet,

1177
01:07:48,120 --> 01:07:50,520
Speaker 2: and we were trying to figure out a new term

1178
01:07:51,080 --> 01:07:54,080
Speaker 2: or a new way of having like adult grooming. And

1179
01:07:54,200 --> 01:07:58,120
Speaker 2: you know that's very true, Koen is the jam. That's

1180
01:07:58,120 --> 01:07:58,960
Speaker 2: a very good point.

1181
01:07:59,240 --> 01:08:02,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, doesn't seem as sinister though it needs to be

1182
01:08:02,880 --> 01:08:06,000
Speaker 4: a more sinister word, because what people are doing to

1183
01:08:06,040 --> 01:08:09,000
Speaker 4: adults is terrible. It's worse than coercion, but I just

1184
01:08:09,000 --> 01:08:11,840
Speaker 4: don't think it's as serious as grooming. Does that make sense?

1185
01:08:11,880 --> 01:08:11,960
Speaker 3: Like?

1186
01:08:12,120 --> 01:08:12,240
Speaker 8: Right?

1187
01:08:12,280 --> 01:08:14,080
Speaker 4: But she had a better word for it, which was

1188
01:08:14,640 --> 01:08:20,800
Speaker 4: I blocked out. Can hear it again? Coercive a course

1189
01:08:20,840 --> 01:08:24,479
Speaker 4: of control? Because that is the thing, coercive control? How

1190
01:08:24,479 --> 01:08:29,680
Speaker 4: about coercive abusive control? Because I like whis's going with this? Yeah,

1191
01:08:29,720 --> 01:08:31,000
Speaker 4: it's co wors of control.

1192
01:08:31,280 --> 01:08:34,240
Speaker 2: She's right, She's right. I think we have to rename this.

1193
01:08:34,760 --> 01:08:37,240
Speaker 2: So okay, so we're going to do a talkback to

1194
01:08:37,280 --> 01:08:41,639
Speaker 2: the talkback is can you give us Well, we'll meet

1195
01:08:41,640 --> 01:08:44,000
Speaker 2: you there. You're one hundred percent right now? Can you

1196
01:08:44,160 --> 01:08:46,160
Speaker 2: up that a little bit? Let's make it a little

1197
01:08:46,160 --> 01:08:50,240
Speaker 2: bit more sinister and a little bit more dark, because

1198
01:08:50,240 --> 01:08:52,320
Speaker 2: we want somebody to be able to say I was

1199
01:08:53,280 --> 01:08:59,160
Speaker 2: blah blah coercively controlled in this situation, and therefore they

1200
01:08:59,240 --> 01:09:03,160
Speaker 2: need to go away till the end of days. Because also, yeah,

1201
01:09:03,280 --> 01:09:05,120
Speaker 2: I think we're all saying the same thing. What's the

1202
01:09:05,160 --> 01:09:06,200
Speaker 2: next anti of that?

1203
01:09:06,640 --> 01:09:06,840
Speaker 3: Right?

1204
01:09:07,320 --> 01:09:09,960
Speaker 2: Yeah? I thank you for the talk back so much, and.

1205
01:09:09,840 --> 01:09:13,879
Speaker 5: Grooming boy, this really has struck a nerve, And honestly,

1206
01:09:13,960 --> 01:09:17,840
Speaker 5: the dialogue has been so interesting to watch sort of

1207
01:09:17,880 --> 01:09:20,879
Speaker 5: back and forth and building upon each other anyway.

1208
01:09:21,000 --> 01:09:23,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I think we're gonna let's get some legislation

1209
01:09:23,360 --> 01:09:24,280
Speaker 2: going for this next.

1210
01:09:24,280 --> 01:09:28,519
Speaker 4: So this is tier learning among community, the crime crew.

1211
01:09:28,600 --> 01:09:32,200
Speaker 2: We're going to actually create the perfect term, and that

1212
01:09:32,360 --> 01:09:35,560
Speaker 2: perfect term that will be scary and deadly and very important.

1213
01:09:36,080 --> 01:09:38,960
Speaker 2: You know who knows like that becomes part of the language.

1214
01:09:39,160 --> 01:09:42,840
Speaker 2: And in that case, you know, nobody wins because it's

1215
01:09:42,840 --> 01:09:45,840
Speaker 2: based on such a tragic thing, but maybe there's real

1216
01:09:46,040 --> 01:09:47,840
Speaker 2: justice to be had. That's a good point.

1217
01:09:48,360 --> 01:09:50,920
Speaker 6: Absolutely. We have another talkback.

1218
01:09:51,160 --> 01:09:55,120
Speaker 7: WHOA Hi, This is Jason in South Carolina. There is

1219
01:09:55,200 --> 01:09:59,920
Speaker 7: no way that Trump is on Epstein's list. If he was,

1220
01:10:00,439 --> 01:10:03,960
Speaker 7: the Biden administration would have released the list before the election,

1221
01:10:04,560 --> 01:10:08,680
Speaker 7: probably last October. There's no way that Trump is on

1222
01:10:08,720 --> 01:10:09,960
Speaker 7: Epstein's list.

1223
01:10:10,360 --> 01:10:11,479
Speaker 2: By the way, go ahead.

1224
01:10:11,479 --> 01:10:14,519
Speaker 4: That's a good point. He's alone in this one because

1225
01:10:14,680 --> 01:10:16,559
Speaker 4: I do think that's a fair point. But I also

1226
01:10:16,640 --> 01:10:19,479
Speaker 4: kind of go back to the mutually assured destruction. I

1227
01:10:19,479 --> 01:10:21,880
Speaker 4: think they're all on you know, I don't think there

1228
01:10:22,120 --> 01:10:23,479
Speaker 4: and I was thinking about this, I don't know that

1229
01:10:23,520 --> 01:10:26,040
Speaker 4: there is a list. I think it might be a

1230
01:10:26,160 --> 01:10:30,000
Speaker 4: list that could be made from all the files, right,

1231
01:10:30,160 --> 01:10:32,559
Speaker 4: Like if you read all the files. You could probably

1232
01:10:32,600 --> 01:10:35,800
Speaker 4: pull out names of people that you know were on

1233
01:10:35,840 --> 01:10:38,719
Speaker 4: the island, or you know how whatever you want to say.

1234
01:10:38,960 --> 01:10:41,320
Speaker 4: But I can't imagine that Jeffrey Epstein had like a

1235
01:10:41,320 --> 01:10:43,400
Speaker 4: little black book and he was like, Okay, this is

1236
01:10:43,680 --> 01:10:45,160
Speaker 4: a proverbial.

1237
01:10:44,560 --> 01:10:48,200
Speaker 2: List of sorts to that point. So it's a very

1238
01:10:48,200 --> 01:10:50,439
Speaker 2: good point. And uh, and will taken, I might add,

1239
01:10:50,800 --> 01:10:54,760
Speaker 2: because yes, if we're using this list as some sort

1240
01:10:54,800 --> 01:10:59,280
Speaker 2: of political fodder, right, and you know, the previous administration

1241
01:10:59,400 --> 01:11:01,400
Speaker 2: could have used it to maybe get one step further,

1242
01:11:01,840 --> 01:11:03,880
Speaker 2: of course they would have released it. And I guess

1243
01:11:03,920 --> 01:11:06,400
Speaker 2: the other side of that would be, and I don't disagree,

1244
01:11:06,720 --> 01:11:09,479
Speaker 2: the other side of that would be unless everybody's on

1245
01:11:09,520 --> 01:11:11,800
Speaker 2: the list. So it's like the standoff of like that's

1246
01:11:11,800 --> 01:11:14,240
Speaker 2: what I say. It's infamous, Like everyone's kind of like

1247
01:11:14,840 --> 01:11:15,840
Speaker 2: cock blocking each other.

1248
01:11:15,960 --> 01:11:18,320
Speaker 4: It's kind of like we have nukes, Russia has nukes,

1249
01:11:18,360 --> 01:11:21,799
Speaker 4: but we're never going to we're going to which.

1250
01:11:21,680 --> 01:11:24,200
Speaker 2: Is such weird context to like we were talking about

1251
01:11:24,240 --> 01:11:27,360
Speaker 2: this a little bit earlier too, of the infamous debate

1252
01:11:27,479 --> 01:11:31,120
Speaker 2: between Trump and Hillary Clinton in the nominee at the time,

1253
01:11:31,479 --> 01:11:33,880
Speaker 2: Remember they were on stage and they were like you're

1254
01:11:34,000 --> 01:11:36,840
Speaker 2: such a weird thing, right, he was kind of a right, Yeah,

1255
01:11:36,840 --> 01:11:40,519
Speaker 2: I was just meanwhile, you know it's been alleged, you

1256
01:11:40,560 --> 01:11:43,880
Speaker 2: know that maybe her husband, you know, everybody seems to

1257
01:11:43,880 --> 01:11:46,680
Speaker 2: be involved in a very bad thing. And yeah, that's

1258
01:11:46,680 --> 01:11:49,000
Speaker 2: such a good point. A listen, thank you for the

1259
01:11:49,000 --> 01:11:51,960
Speaker 2: talk about because we it's a very fair point. And

1260
01:11:52,000 --> 01:11:54,880
Speaker 2: then maybe furthermore, parks in everybody's house.

1261
01:11:55,880 --> 01:11:58,439
Speaker 4: You're listening to True Crime tonight and iHeartRadio. I'm body

1262
01:11:58,479 --> 01:12:00,920
Speaker 4: Moved and I'm here with Courtney and stuff, and we're

1263
01:12:00,920 --> 01:12:03,000
Speaker 4: going to jump into this dentist story. If you have

1264
01:12:03,040 --> 01:12:05,519
Speaker 4: anything to add give us at eighty eight eight thirty

1265
01:12:05,560 --> 01:12:09,320
Speaker 4: one crime. Yeah, at last, Courtney, what's going on? Yes?

1266
01:12:09,400 --> 01:12:09,640
Speaker 4: Give me.

1267
01:12:10,520 --> 01:12:13,879
Speaker 5: It is day three in the trial of the dentist

1268
01:12:13,960 --> 01:12:14,639
Speaker 5: James Craig.

1269
01:12:14,760 --> 01:12:17,120
Speaker 6: This is out of Aurora, Colorado.

1270
01:12:17,240 --> 01:12:20,840
Speaker 5: And he's been accused of poisoning his wife in her

1271
01:12:20,960 --> 01:12:22,240
Speaker 5: protein shakes.

1272
01:12:22,400 --> 01:12:24,679
Speaker 6: The most innocuous thing to start a day.

1273
01:12:25,360 --> 01:12:28,960
Speaker 5: And there he was using cyanide and I drops and

1274
01:12:29,000 --> 01:12:31,439
Speaker 5: a couple of other things. And they were married for

1275
01:12:31,479 --> 01:12:33,880
Speaker 5: twenty three years. As Stephanie said, they have six kids.

1276
01:12:34,320 --> 01:12:38,160
Speaker 5: He is absolutely pleading not guilty to first degree murder

1277
01:12:38,240 --> 01:12:41,679
Speaker 5: along with several other charges. And the other charges include

1278
01:12:41,680 --> 01:12:46,719
Speaker 5: solicitation to commit murder and solicitation to commit perjury.

1279
01:12:47,080 --> 01:12:48,160
Speaker 4: Now where do those come from?

1280
01:12:48,400 --> 01:12:51,640
Speaker 6: So this guy has a bunch of layers. Well, he

1281
01:12:51,880 --> 01:12:52,680
Speaker 6: didn't mean to interrupt you.

1282
01:12:52,720 --> 01:12:54,519
Speaker 4: I'm sorry. I just said no, no, no, you're go ahead.

1283
01:12:54,560 --> 01:12:56,600
Speaker 5: I think actually, you know a lot more about the

1284
01:12:56,920 --> 01:12:58,439
Speaker 5: solicitation to commit murder.

1285
01:12:58,800 --> 01:13:01,519
Speaker 4: I don't actually we talking about Let's say, I'm looking

1286
01:13:01,520 --> 01:13:03,679
Speaker 4: at a photograph of this lovely family.

1287
01:13:03,880 --> 01:13:05,639
Speaker 2: I'm looking at a photograph of them right now.

1288
01:13:05,800 --> 01:13:06,320
Speaker 4: Oh I do.

1289
01:13:06,600 --> 01:13:09,280
Speaker 2: By the way, this guy with his beautiful wife of

1290
01:13:09,360 --> 01:13:13,479
Speaker 2: twenty three years and their six beautiful children. What a mess.

1291
01:13:13,920 --> 01:13:14,880
Speaker 2: What a mess.

1292
01:13:15,560 --> 01:13:18,720
Speaker 4: So the solicitation to commit murder, I just remembered. Isn't

1293
01:13:18,760 --> 01:13:23,240
Speaker 4: he accused of soliciting somebody that killed the lead investigator

1294
01:13:23,280 --> 01:13:25,360
Speaker 4: that was investigating the murder. Okay, that's where that.

1295
01:13:25,520 --> 01:13:29,479
Speaker 2: Was behind from behind bars, I might add this, I

1296
01:13:29,520 --> 01:13:30,640
Speaker 2: don't know me.

1297
01:13:31,320 --> 01:13:34,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, and this guy not only had he been poisoning

1298
01:13:35,040 --> 01:13:37,240
Speaker 5: her allegedly.

1299
01:13:38,520 --> 01:13:41,559
Speaker 2: By the way, we have to say that everybody sometimes,

1300
01:13:41,640 --> 01:13:44,320
Speaker 2: you know, we do have to say that because you.

1301
01:13:44,240 --> 01:13:48,120
Speaker 4: Know, he's not previcted, right, and he's only accused, right.

1302
01:13:48,520 --> 01:13:50,560
Speaker 6: He is only accused. Yep, it's only day three of

1303
01:13:50,600 --> 01:13:51,000
Speaker 6: the trial.

1304
01:13:51,640 --> 01:13:57,080
Speaker 5: But allegedly not only was he poisoning her on the daily, that.

1305
01:13:57,000 --> 01:14:01,320
Speaker 6: He also, if it's true, what a horrible I don't know.

1306
01:14:01,400 --> 01:14:03,080
Speaker 6: Dirt bag is the only thing that comes to mind.

1307
01:14:03,120 --> 01:14:06,839
Speaker 5: I'm sure there's a legal term, but that he actually

1308
01:14:07,000 --> 01:14:12,080
Speaker 5: gave his wife the final dose of poison after she

1309
01:14:12,200 --> 01:14:14,920
Speaker 5: already had been admitted to the hospitals and doctors are

1310
01:14:14,920 --> 01:14:17,360
Speaker 5: trying to figure out what the heck is wrong with

1311
01:14:17,400 --> 01:14:21,200
Speaker 5: this woman because she had all these mysterious ailments, And

1312
01:14:21,840 --> 01:14:24,920
Speaker 5: so can you imagine you've already put your wife in

1313
01:14:25,000 --> 01:14:25,920
Speaker 5: twenty three years.

1314
01:14:26,120 --> 01:14:27,720
Speaker 6: Yeah, you've been poisoning.

1315
01:14:27,240 --> 01:14:29,880
Speaker 5: Her on the daily, She's already in the hospital, and

1316
01:14:29,960 --> 01:14:33,160
Speaker 5: now you go in with the last dose to really.

1317
01:14:33,240 --> 01:14:34,200
Speaker 2: To get a mill tale.

1318
01:14:34,439 --> 01:14:36,479
Speaker 4: It's important to note too, I read this, I think this.

1319
01:14:36,680 --> 01:14:40,040
Speaker 4: I read this yesterday in People magazine like the People

1320
01:14:40,120 --> 01:14:44,080
Speaker 4: website that in the probable clause Abiday at the PCA,

1321
01:14:44,200 --> 01:14:50,000
Speaker 4: the wife told her sister that Craig, the dentist, was

1322
01:14:50,040 --> 01:14:53,360
Speaker 4: obsessed with pornography and had like a bunch of affairs

1323
01:14:53,400 --> 01:14:56,040
Speaker 4: and tried to drug her years earlier. So this was

1324
01:14:56,040 --> 01:14:58,080
Speaker 4: like his sex attempts.

1325
01:14:58,040 --> 01:15:01,080
Speaker 2: Sense ye, why does Sidey sense everybody out there? The

1326
01:15:01,200 --> 01:15:01,920
Speaker 2: Spidey said.

1327
01:15:02,000 --> 01:15:05,280
Speaker 4: When she discovered he tried to poison her, he told

1328
01:15:05,320 --> 01:15:08,519
Speaker 4: her something like he wanted to die by suicide and

1329
01:15:08,520 --> 01:15:11,920
Speaker 4: he didn't want to put her through the pain of

1330
01:15:12,880 --> 01:15:13,719
Speaker 4: missing him.

1331
01:15:14,120 --> 01:15:16,200
Speaker 2: Right, that's the riddle, right, you just nailed it. That's

1332
01:15:16,200 --> 01:15:19,160
Speaker 2: what I got. I think backward earlier. Can you repeat

1333
01:15:19,160 --> 01:15:21,960
Speaker 2: that again, because I just meanie, I blocked out again?

1334
01:15:22,160 --> 01:15:29,080
Speaker 5: No, true, Yeah, years prior he had been poisoning his wife.

1335
01:15:29,120 --> 01:15:32,400
Speaker 6: It came to be known, and then when found out.

1336
01:15:32,200 --> 01:15:35,559
Speaker 5: He was like, oh, sweet darlin, it was for your

1337
01:15:35,600 --> 01:15:38,640
Speaker 5: own good, because really, I'm so sad I want to

1338
01:15:38,720 --> 01:15:41,040
Speaker 5: kill myself and I don't want you to have to

1339
01:15:41,120 --> 01:15:43,160
Speaker 5: live to see it, or to live without me.

1340
01:15:43,560 --> 01:15:46,439
Speaker 4: And it should be known that they are members the

1341
01:15:46,560 --> 01:15:49,559
Speaker 4: Church of Jesus Christ of Later day Saints, and they

1342
01:15:49,600 --> 01:15:52,120
Speaker 4: take you know, I'm not trying to cast an umbrella,

1343
01:15:52,200 --> 01:15:54,760
Speaker 4: but you know, they do take marriage very seriously, and

1344
01:15:54,960 --> 01:15:58,000
Speaker 4: divorce is you know, incredibly frowned upon in the church.

1345
01:15:58,400 --> 01:16:01,280
Speaker 4: And it is possible that that he had an influence

1346
01:16:01,360 --> 01:16:03,479
Speaker 4: on her staying with him.

1347
01:16:03,920 --> 01:16:09,200
Speaker 5: Right, certainly religious listen for damn, poor kids.

1348
01:16:09,320 --> 01:16:10,080
Speaker 4: Oh my goodness.

1349
01:16:10,280 --> 01:16:15,880
Speaker 5: But also this dentist attorney is saying that, oh, you know,

1350
01:16:16,200 --> 01:16:19,480
Speaker 5: she knew all about the cheating, but because of their religion,

1351
01:16:20,240 --> 01:16:23,560
Speaker 5: that you know, she wanted to stay together and she

1352
01:16:23,640 --> 01:16:25,599
Speaker 5: knew about it all the time, that it was nothing secret,

1353
01:16:25,680 --> 01:16:27,520
Speaker 5: It wasn't wasn't hiding.

1354
01:16:27,200 --> 01:16:32,000
Speaker 4: Anymore horrifying, And he did try to orchestrate false testimony,

1355
01:16:32,439 --> 01:16:36,000
Speaker 4: and according to the prosecution, he solicited another inmate to

1356
01:16:36,120 --> 01:16:40,679
Speaker 4: lie on the stand, specifically to claim that Angela, his wife,

1357
01:16:41,200 --> 01:16:44,879
Speaker 4: had suicidal thoughts and had previously talked about self harm.

1358
01:16:45,760 --> 01:16:47,160
Speaker 2: How is a person behind bars?

1359
01:16:47,200 --> 01:16:48,800
Speaker 4: No, they don't know. I don't know.

1360
01:16:48,840 --> 01:16:49,720
Speaker 2: I try to figure that out.

1361
01:16:49,800 --> 01:16:52,320
Speaker 5: There's a lot We're going to cover this from top

1362
01:16:52,400 --> 01:16:57,000
Speaker 5: to bottom. There are allegations of deep fake videos within the.

1363
01:16:59,080 --> 01:17:01,760
Speaker 2: Still kind of dang, I like I'm eating up these

1364
01:17:01,760 --> 01:17:03,920
Speaker 2: details right now, because like, this is going to be

1365
01:17:03,960 --> 01:17:05,840
Speaker 2: one of those cases that we follow for a very

1366
01:17:05,920 --> 01:17:08,640
Speaker 2: long time, right and again, we don't know what the

1367
01:17:08,680 --> 01:17:11,680
Speaker 2: outcome will be. But this family looks so beautiful the

1368
01:17:11,680 --> 01:17:15,320
Speaker 2: photograph of them. Yeah, and the phones are ringing off

1369
01:17:15,320 --> 01:17:16,040
Speaker 2: the hook right now.

1370
01:17:16,080 --> 01:17:19,599
Speaker 4: We have some grooming updates. We've started a swell. Go ahead,

1371
01:17:19,720 --> 01:17:22,320
Speaker 4: you go first, Okay, it's it's a very quick update.

1372
01:17:22,360 --> 01:17:26,000
Speaker 4: There's been a new video released on the Travasdecker. Travistecker

1373
01:17:26,040 --> 01:17:29,360
Speaker 4: is accused of killing his three beautiful young children, daughters.

1374
01:17:29,920 --> 01:17:32,439
Speaker 4: And there's been a new video body cam footage basically

1375
01:17:32,560 --> 01:17:38,160
Speaker 4: of police interacting with Tratasdecker three days before the daughter's vanished,

1376
01:17:38,560 --> 01:17:41,799
Speaker 4: and he was acting very nervous and he was fidgety.

1377
01:17:42,320 --> 01:17:43,599
Speaker 4: And that's the update. That's it.

1378
01:17:44,120 --> 01:17:45,840
Speaker 2: Yep, okay, so cool.

1379
01:17:45,880 --> 01:17:50,160
Speaker 4: Okay, So while we're live, all right, I got a

1380
01:17:50,280 --> 01:17:55,840
Speaker 4: notified that our friend Spud. Shout out Spudi. She says,

1381
01:17:56,360 --> 01:18:00,600
Speaker 4: A great term that we could use is coercive malignant manipulation.

1382
01:18:01,360 --> 01:18:03,760
Speaker 2: Okay, so let's soft lunch. We're soft lunch. I think

1383
01:18:03,840 --> 01:18:08,680
Speaker 2: team is coming together. Say it once more, coercive malignant manipulation.

1384
01:18:08,880 --> 01:18:12,599
Speaker 2: If you have any ideas, give us a call, leave

1385
01:18:12,680 --> 01:18:13,080
Speaker 2: us a talk to.

1386
01:18:13,320 --> 01:18:15,880
Speaker 4: This is the adult. You are starting a swell.

1387
01:18:16,240 --> 01:18:18,640
Speaker 2: Yes, we're starting a swell. We're going to change legislation.

1388
01:18:18,840 --> 01:18:22,280
Speaker 2: It started here, by the way. Great suggestions tonight. So

1389
01:18:22,600 --> 01:18:24,479
Speaker 2: I still haven't gotten it down to a science. What

1390
01:18:24,560 --> 01:18:25,000
Speaker 2: is it again?

1391
01:18:25,560 --> 01:18:31,400
Speaker 5: Coersive malignant manipulation and I feel like this should go.

1392
01:18:32,240 --> 01:18:34,200
Speaker 5: In all of this grooming talk that we've been doing,

1393
01:18:34,240 --> 01:18:36,639
Speaker 5: I've been thinking a lot about people who get scammed.

1394
01:18:36,680 --> 01:18:40,600
Speaker 5: Even let's take love and relationship out of it, but

1395
01:18:41,080 --> 01:18:45,320
Speaker 5: people who phone solicit and pray on the elderly, play

1396
01:18:45,520 --> 01:18:46,800
Speaker 5: on people you know.

1397
01:18:46,840 --> 01:18:51,240
Speaker 2: Who who are in scammer. Now I landed out. I

1398
01:18:51,760 --> 01:18:53,519
Speaker 2: you know, we have to all be looking out for

1399
01:18:53,560 --> 01:18:54,000
Speaker 2: each other.

1400
01:18:54,439 --> 01:18:57,520
Speaker 5: So and I feel like so often in those cases

1401
01:18:58,160 --> 01:19:00,920
Speaker 5: it's only and I've heard a couple of investigators speak

1402
01:19:00,920 --> 01:19:05,480
Speaker 5: about large cases that they followed and just how horrible

1403
01:19:05,520 --> 01:19:08,360
Speaker 5: and deplorable that people literally.

1404
01:19:08,000 --> 01:19:09,920
Speaker 6: Ruin, you know, as some lonely eighty year.

1405
01:19:09,840 --> 01:19:13,800
Speaker 5: Old lady wipe out every dollar she's ever made. But

1406
01:19:14,680 --> 01:19:19,160
Speaker 5: since this you know, imaginary eighty year old lady does

1407
01:19:19,280 --> 01:19:23,000
Speaker 5: give the money, then everything needs to only be persecuted

1408
01:19:23,120 --> 01:19:26,840
Speaker 5: or prosecuted. Rather it's always mail fraud or something like that.

1409
01:19:26,920 --> 01:19:28,240
Speaker 4: But isn't that a little different.

1410
01:19:28,320 --> 01:19:31,639
Speaker 2: So again, now that we're mincing, suddenly we're legislation now,

1411
01:19:31,880 --> 01:19:35,200
Speaker 2: But like I think it should be because grooming is

1412
01:19:35,280 --> 01:19:40,200
Speaker 2: implying like there's sexual deviance, there's sexual abuse, Maybe there's

1413
01:19:40,680 --> 01:19:43,439
Speaker 2: grooming to murder. I mean, maybe I'm wrong, I changed

1414
01:19:43,479 --> 01:19:44,320
Speaker 2: my vote.

1415
01:19:44,200 --> 01:19:47,240
Speaker 5: Or I just think that this term it really seems

1416
01:19:47,240 --> 01:19:53,120
Speaker 5: to me to fit as a course any because it is.

1417
01:19:53,240 --> 01:19:57,160
Speaker 5: It is coercive, like those scams which are so pervasive.

1418
01:19:57,720 --> 01:19:59,720
Speaker 4: Oh the romance scams.

1419
01:19:59,360 --> 01:20:01,400
Speaker 6: Too, Oh terrible sad.

1420
01:20:01,520 --> 01:20:03,360
Speaker 4: Those are the ones that make me so sad because

1421
01:20:03,360 --> 01:20:05,320
Speaker 4: these people are so lonely, and you know, they just

1422
01:20:05,360 --> 01:20:08,000
Speaker 4: want love. And you know, the guy reaches out and

1423
01:20:08,000 --> 01:20:10,559
Speaker 4: he's a doctor and he's trapped in this country and

1424
01:20:10,600 --> 01:20:12,760
Speaker 4: he's a treasure and it's buried, but he can't get

1425
01:20:12,760 --> 01:20:15,120
Speaker 4: to it unless she can't it my treasure. And these

1426
01:20:15,160 --> 01:20:18,000
Speaker 4: women and men too, I just my heart bring she was.

1427
01:20:18,000 --> 01:20:21,200
Speaker 2: A widow maybe, and she's been heartbroken and she's saving

1428
01:20:21,240 --> 01:20:25,080
Speaker 2: her pennies for war woman who thought that like it

1429
01:20:25,160 --> 01:20:27,439
Speaker 2: was like she thought she was dating Tom Cruise.

1430
01:20:27,439 --> 01:20:29,200
Speaker 5: Hold On, I'm going to mess up the celebrity. But

1431
01:20:29,200 --> 01:20:30,679
Speaker 5: do you remember what I'm talking about?

1432
01:20:30,840 --> 01:20:33,960
Speaker 2: No, but I'm a hook line and sinker again eating

1433
01:20:33,960 --> 01:20:34,280
Speaker 2: it up.

1434
01:20:34,400 --> 01:20:37,640
Speaker 5: It was a woman who and this was over the

1435
01:20:37,720 --> 01:20:40,439
Speaker 5: course of quite a bit of time. Hold On, I

1436
01:20:40,479 --> 01:20:43,640
Speaker 5: think that Taha in the control room maybe knows.

1437
01:20:43,720 --> 01:20:46,960
Speaker 6: They are He is nodding, right, yeah, nodding how.

1438
01:20:46,800 --> 01:20:49,519
Speaker 2: Happy are we that Top is back from his gallop

1439
01:20:49,560 --> 01:20:50,400
Speaker 2: panting and Madrid.

1440
01:20:50,439 --> 01:20:54,559
Speaker 5: Absolutely, in any case, we will This celebrity is not

1441
01:20:54,560 --> 01:20:57,639
Speaker 5: coming to me. But it was like tragic and this

1442
01:20:57,680 --> 01:20:59,559
Speaker 5: poor woman felt she lost everything.

1443
01:20:59,680 --> 01:21:03,360
Speaker 2: Yeah right there she was being groomed, but she wasn't

1444
01:21:03,360 --> 01:21:05,479
Speaker 2: being groomed, she was being let's make it a little

1445
01:21:05,479 --> 01:21:07,600
Speaker 2: bit more active. How would you do it? One of

1446
01:21:07,640 --> 01:21:09,080
Speaker 2: the too smarty pans.

1447
01:21:08,760 --> 01:21:13,920
Speaker 5: Coersively, maniglantly, manignantly, mandignantly manipulated.

1448
01:21:14,360 --> 01:21:16,880
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, okay, we want to hear from you. What's

1449
01:21:16,880 --> 01:21:19,840
Speaker 2: your take, what's your vote? We're back on Sunday, so

1450
01:21:19,880 --> 01:21:22,559
Speaker 2: we're not here tomorrow. Remember Sunday, we will be here

1451
01:21:22,720 --> 01:21:25,720
Speaker 2: talking true crime all the time. Have a great night,

1452
01:21:26,400 --> 01:21:42,439
Speaker 2: Stay safe, everybody,