WEBVTT - Robot Love 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:07.240 Brought to you by Toyota. Let's go places. Welcome to 0:00:07.400 --> 0:00:15.400 Forward Thinking, either everybody, and welcome to Forward Thinking, the 0:00:15.440 --> 0:00:18.040 podcast that looks at the future and says, a mechanical 0:00:18.079 --> 0:00:20.439 brain and a mechanical heart. My reflex is good and 0:00:20.520 --> 0:00:23.160 my vision is sharp, but I'm still missing one critical part, 0:00:23.360 --> 0:00:27.760 and it's you. I'm Jonathan Strickland and I'm Joe McCormick, 0:00:27.880 --> 0:00:30.680 and uh, you know, guys, Uh, I don't know if 0:00:30.720 --> 0:00:33.760 you if you actually saw the episode of Forward Thinking 0:00:33.960 --> 0:00:37.600 that I did for Valentine's Day, but um, you know, 0:00:37.680 --> 0:00:40.519 love was in the air. I saw it, did you, Yeah? 0:00:40.920 --> 0:00:44.239 I was. That was a fun one, talking about the 0:00:44.320 --> 0:00:48.199 concepts of romance and love, the future of it, and 0:00:48.520 --> 0:00:52.840 especially the future as it relates to artificial intelligence and robots. 0:00:53.440 --> 0:00:55.960 So I think we should try to do our best 0:00:56.040 --> 0:00:59.040 to bring as much dignity as possible to this discussion 0:00:59.160 --> 0:01:03.840 and not let it just devolve into t he and uh, well, 0:01:03.880 --> 0:01:06.520 I mean it's it's there's a lot of there's a 0:01:06.520 --> 0:01:10.200 lot of uh, really challenging things to tackle here on 0:01:10.319 --> 0:01:14.240 multiple levels, from a technology standpoint, from a social standpoint, 0:01:14.280 --> 0:01:17.840 from a cultural standpoint. I mean, there are you know, 0:01:18.040 --> 0:01:20.880 First of all, we have to keep in mind, bottom level, 0:01:21.360 --> 0:01:24.840 there are very real people with real emotions that are 0:01:24.880 --> 0:01:28.399 are all wrapped up in this topic. And so it's 0:01:28.480 --> 0:01:31.520 you know, we're gonna try and be respectful of everybody, 0:01:31.560 --> 0:01:33.280 but at the same time, you have to admit that 0:01:33.400 --> 0:01:36.160 some of the concepts we're talking about to the average 0:01:36.200 --> 0:01:40.200 person might seem really alien to them or even ridiculous. 0:01:40.240 --> 0:01:43.760 And and we're we're absolutely not trying to mock anyone 0:01:43.959 --> 0:01:47.880 who who has, you know, these sort of feelings exactly. 0:01:47.960 --> 0:01:50.600 I mean, it's it's we're trying, Like I said, being 0:01:50.600 --> 0:01:52.360 respectful is going to be one of those things we're 0:01:52.360 --> 0:01:54.560 gonna try and do throughout here. That doesn't mean we're 0:01:54.560 --> 0:01:57.000 not going to make a joke here and there, because 0:01:57.280 --> 0:01:59.160 we are who we are, all of us are a 0:01:59.200 --> 0:02:02.680 little bit. But it's more about being lighthearted. We're not 0:02:02.800 --> 0:02:05.480 poking fun at anyone. Now. First of all, this is 0:02:05.520 --> 0:02:09.840 a concept that is often used in lots of science fiction. 0:02:09.919 --> 0:02:13.600 I mean, we've seen various films and stories as well 0:02:13.639 --> 0:02:17.680 as uh, you know, television series, everything that you can 0:02:17.720 --> 0:02:22.799 think of that have explored this idea of a human 0:02:22.880 --> 0:02:26.480 person falling in love with a synthetic being. Oh yeah, 0:02:26.480 --> 0:02:29.120 it's a it's a really classic troop um. It goes 0:02:29.160 --> 0:02:32.080 back at least to Heleno Lloyd, which is a short 0:02:32.120 --> 0:02:35.400 story by one Lester del Rey or Bradberry's Marionettes, inc. 0:02:35.400 --> 0:02:38.600 From Yeah, I even go further back because if you 0:02:38.639 --> 0:02:43.000 look at at Mythology and you look at Ovid's Metamorphoses, 0:02:43.320 --> 0:02:46.280 the story of Pygmalion is very similar to kind of 0:02:46.280 --> 0:02:48.960 the stuff we're talking about, and that Pigmalion, a sculptor, 0:02:49.360 --> 0:02:52.600 builds a statue and he falls in love with his creation, 0:02:52.960 --> 0:02:56.880 which is eventually given life by the goddess Aphrodite. And 0:02:57.000 --> 0:02:59.840 so this is not that different from what we're going 0:02:59.840 --> 0:03:02.280 to talking about. You go even further back than that. 0:03:02.320 --> 0:03:05.960 There's a weird science right, Yeah, that predates all of 0:03:05.960 --> 0:03:10.000 its metamorphoses because that was in the eighties and everything 0:03:10.080 --> 0:03:12.960 came after that, or just this year that that movie 0:03:13.000 --> 0:03:15.600 her Spike Jones short came out yep, yep. And so 0:03:15.639 --> 0:03:17.480 there are a lot of different choices that we could 0:03:17.720 --> 0:03:20.959 you know, I actually listed one, uh making Mr Wright, 0:03:21.320 --> 0:03:23.280 which was I don't know, did you guys ever see 0:03:23.280 --> 0:03:26.880 that movie? Okay, this is one of those movies that 0:03:26.960 --> 0:03:31.239 I just remember coming on television all the time, like 0:03:31.320 --> 0:03:34.320 in the maybe it was the late eighties or perhaps 0:03:34.360 --> 0:03:38.440 the early nineties, and it started John Malkovich as a 0:03:38.520 --> 0:03:41.960 scientist who builds a robot, and the robot's purpose is 0:03:42.000 --> 0:03:46.440 to be sent out for into the outer Solar System 0:03:46.520 --> 0:03:51.680 to do you know, uh, astronomical studies. But a woman 0:03:51.800 --> 0:03:53.840 ends up falling in love with the robot, and the 0:03:53.960 --> 0:03:57.920 robot ends up developing emotions. It's already artificially intelligent, but 0:03:57.960 --> 0:04:00.720 now it's actually become conscious and self away, air and 0:04:00.840 --> 0:04:04.760 emotional and ultimately spoiler alert for anyone who hasn't seen 0:04:04.760 --> 0:04:06.960 this movie, which was out, you know, more than a 0:04:07.040 --> 0:04:10.840 couple of decades ago, uh, the scientist character, the human 0:04:10.880 --> 0:04:14.960 scientist ends up taking the place of the robot and 0:04:15.000 --> 0:04:17.320 goes out into outer space because he feels more at 0:04:17.360 --> 0:04:20.840 home by himself. He's the ultimate introvert, and the robot 0:04:20.960 --> 0:04:26.560 ends up assuming the identity of the human scientist on Earth. So, uh, 0:04:26.600 --> 0:04:28.320 you know this this is one of those ideas that 0:04:28.520 --> 0:04:32.320 has been explored multiple times. Sure. We we've also on 0:04:32.480 --> 0:04:37.480 a less romantic and perhaps more straightforward level, have the 0:04:37.560 --> 0:04:41.840 example of Jude Law's character subtly named Giggolo Joe from 0:04:41.880 --> 0:04:45.640 AI Artificial Intelligence. Right, and so there we have a 0:04:45.760 --> 0:04:49.279 robot whose specific purpose, at least in the context of 0:04:49.320 --> 0:04:52.719 that film, is to be like a pleasure but something 0:04:52.720 --> 0:04:56.280 along those lines, something that's there for physical pleasure. And 0:04:56.320 --> 0:04:59.200 in fact, you know, in the short term, that's really 0:04:59.240 --> 0:05:01.719 what we're talking about here, because we just haven't reached 0:05:01.720 --> 0:05:05.360 a point where in the artificial intelligence field we can 0:05:05.440 --> 0:05:08.960 create something as deep and compelling as a robot that 0:05:09.000 --> 0:05:13.200 can realistically simulate emotions on a consistent basis. Yeah, I 0:05:13.560 --> 0:05:17.560 can't imagine that even the best artificial intelligence chat bought 0:05:17.600 --> 0:05:20.800 today could really make you fall in love with its personality, 0:05:21.080 --> 0:05:23.359 right right, Her is definitely a science fiction movie in 0:05:23.400 --> 0:05:26.200 that way. Of course, that doesn't mean that there aren't 0:05:26.240 --> 0:05:29.800 already some some people who are developing emotional connections to 0:05:30.080 --> 0:05:35.320 human like dolls. There have been a few pretty sensationalistic documentaries, 0:05:35.360 --> 0:05:38.560 for example, about people who have married their real dolls, right, 0:05:38.600 --> 0:05:41.480 and by married, we should point out that that's there's 0:05:41.480 --> 0:05:44.400 a huge quotation marks because it's it's not legal to 0:05:44.520 --> 0:05:48.120 marry an inanimate object, um and and as and as 0:05:48.200 --> 0:05:51.520 much as these people have a emotional connection to to 0:05:51.600 --> 0:05:54.760 those to those dolls and have backstories and names and 0:05:54.800 --> 0:05:58.000 whole lives with them. They it is not a legally 0:05:58.080 --> 0:06:00.880 sanctioned kind of relationship. And it's also when you think 0:06:00.920 --> 0:06:05.640 about it, it's it's one person fulfilling both roles, at 0:06:05.720 --> 0:06:09.680 least on an emotional level, uh, in a relationship. Because 0:06:09.720 --> 0:06:13.440 these dolls have no artificial intelligence, the ones we're talking about, 0:06:14.040 --> 0:06:17.760 I think they're just like rigid things, aren't they. Well, 0:06:17.960 --> 0:06:20.600 rigid might be the wrong one for they don't they 0:06:20.600 --> 0:06:23.200 don't talk. No, they don't talk. They don't have any 0:06:22.920 --> 0:06:25.960 they're they're not motorized. Right, So, so you've got these, 0:06:26.279 --> 0:06:29.279 you know, any any sort of emotional involvement is something 0:06:29.279 --> 0:06:33.120 that's being developed wholly by one side of this equation. Right, 0:06:33.160 --> 0:06:36.200 there's not any sort of emotional response coming from the doll. 0:06:36.560 --> 0:06:39.400 Doesn't mean that the emotions are any less real, let's 0:06:39.400 --> 0:06:42.279 be clear about that. But it's different from the kind 0:06:42.279 --> 0:06:46.040 of relationships where we are talking about two people who 0:06:46.160 --> 0:06:50.719 are reciprocating some sort of emotional involvement. Sure, there's one 0:06:50.720 --> 0:06:54.080 of the frequent interviewees in in these kind of documentaries 0:06:54.200 --> 0:06:57.640 is a man who calls himself Dave Kat who's married 0:06:57.640 --> 0:07:00.560 to a real doll, and and a quote from him 0:07:00.600 --> 0:07:04.960 that I found really interesting about his relationship with his 0:07:04.960 --> 0:07:07.720 his real doll wife sador And I'm not positive that 0:07:07.760 --> 0:07:11.080 that's the correct pronunciation, but but but at any rate, um, 0:07:11.080 --> 0:07:15.040 he said, a synthetic as in, a synthetic doll will 0:07:15.040 --> 0:07:17.320 never lie to you, cheat on you, criticize you, or 0:07:17.360 --> 0:07:21.080 otherwise be disagreeable. It's rare enough to find organics who 0:07:21.280 --> 0:07:23.520 don't have something going on with them, and being able 0:07:23.560 --> 0:07:26.320 to make a partner of one is rarer still, which 0:07:26.400 --> 0:07:30.520 is tells us a lot more about him than necessarily 0:07:30.680 --> 0:07:34.400 the uh this relationship, right, I mean, it's that there 0:07:34.480 --> 0:07:37.600 might be some elements there for some people who fear 0:07:37.840 --> 0:07:40.720 having an emotional relationship for fear of any kind of rejection, 0:07:41.160 --> 0:07:44.320 which I mean that's natural obviously. I think just about 0:07:44.360 --> 0:07:47.480 everyone has had at least one experience where they were 0:07:47.520 --> 0:07:50.360 afraid of some form of emotional rejection at some point 0:07:50.400 --> 0:07:52.880 in their lives. And so for some people that fear 0:07:52.920 --> 0:07:58.600 can be incredibly powerful, absolutely, and so maybe something like 0:07:58.640 --> 0:08:03.360 this would allow them to explore an emotional relationship that, again, 0:08:03.400 --> 0:08:05.880 to them, is just as real as any relationship I 0:08:06.000 --> 0:08:10.880 might have with another person without that that that obstacle 0:08:10.920 --> 0:08:15.280 in the way, right. I thought it was interesting point 0:08:15.280 --> 0:08:17.480 of view of of just kind of wrapping up that 0:08:17.560 --> 0:08:21.040 that entire concept of how difficult it is sometimes to 0:08:21.120 --> 0:08:24.640 have a human partner, and that therefore this could be 0:08:25.160 --> 0:08:28.800 a good emotional substitute for some people. It's It's also 0:08:28.840 --> 0:08:31.480 been suggested by some researchers that there was a report 0:08:31.600 --> 0:08:34.160 done out of the University of Wellington in New Zealand 0:08:34.559 --> 0:08:37.400 that robots could really help clean up the sex industry, 0:08:37.679 --> 0:08:40.480 helping solve a lot of currently existing problems like human 0:08:40.520 --> 0:08:44.160 trafficking and all kinds of s T I S. Yeah, yeah, 0:08:44.200 --> 0:08:46.560 I mean, this is one of those things where you're, 0:08:46.760 --> 0:08:50.079 you know, for some people, uh there there they may 0:08:50.120 --> 0:08:53.080 be saying, well, now you're you're substituting one vice for another. 0:08:53.280 --> 0:08:56.720 But you know, again, this is this is really complex 0:08:56.800 --> 0:09:00.400 just because your own personal point of view that match 0:09:00.440 --> 0:09:04.120 someone else's, you know, you gotta try and distance yourself 0:09:04.120 --> 0:09:06.240 from it. The point with Dave kat though some of 0:09:06.280 --> 0:09:11.200 those interviews, um, he can sometimes like it's it's The 0:09:11.240 --> 0:09:15.480 interviews I read were very telling to me because he 0:09:15.520 --> 0:09:19.000 would talk about the experiences he would have with his 0:09:19.120 --> 0:09:21.520 He actually has two dolls, I believe, or at least 0:09:21.520 --> 0:09:22.920 one of the interviews that talked about the time. At 0:09:22.960 --> 0:09:25.040 the time of the interview, I think he had plans 0:09:25.080 --> 0:09:27.840 to purchase more, but had two at the time, right, So, 0:09:28.280 --> 0:09:30.520 and he would talk about how he would pose them 0:09:30.559 --> 0:09:33.720 for pictures or whatever and and or sit down with 0:09:33.760 --> 0:09:36.240 them on the couch. It didn't sound like it was 0:09:36.800 --> 0:09:40.319 um any kind of and he had invented a backstory, 0:09:40.480 --> 0:09:43.520 actually two different backstories for each of them, but it 0:09:43.559 --> 0:09:46.520 didn't sound like there was any kind of relationship there 0:09:46.920 --> 0:09:50.560 in the traditional sense. Right. It didn't seem like he 0:09:50.760 --> 0:09:53.920 was sharing anything other than a short amount of time 0:09:54.000 --> 0:09:57.040 with them. And he was very forthcoming about, you know, 0:09:57.120 --> 0:10:00.679 what he was doing with these ships dolls. So you know, 0:10:00.840 --> 0:10:04.000 but again, for certain people, maybe that is a way 0:10:04.000 --> 0:10:05.920 of for them to get some emotional fulfillment that they 0:10:05.920 --> 0:10:08.120 would not otherwise have. It sounded to me like it 0:10:08.160 --> 0:10:10.800 was a level of companionship that he found easier to 0:10:10.880 --> 0:10:13.319 deal with. And and you know, and I mean he 0:10:13.320 --> 0:10:18.680 he blogged that the dolls characters have online social media accounts, 0:10:18.679 --> 0:10:23.199 So so there's certainly time being spent with these um 0:10:23.320 --> 0:10:29.920 invented personalities. But now moving forward, thinking ahead about a 0:10:29.920 --> 0:10:33.559 time where we actually start seeing artificial intelligence become a component, because, 0:10:33.559 --> 0:10:37.920 as we said, in these other cases, there's no intelligence there. Uh. 0:10:37.920 --> 0:10:39.680 And just to be clear, we don't want to take 0:10:39.760 --> 0:10:44.280 that as a necessary given in anytime soon, right No, no, no, 0:10:44.720 --> 0:10:47.760 this is saying that when it happens. But they're imagining 0:10:47.880 --> 0:10:51.160 that we do at some point reach in the incredible future, 0:10:51.240 --> 0:10:52.960 right yeah, because we do not have that. We do 0:10:53.040 --> 0:10:57.040 not have the magic artificial intelligence that's dawning right now 0:10:57.080 --> 0:11:00.439 as far as we are aware. But there have already 0:11:00.480 --> 0:11:04.040 been people talking about when that becomes a reality and 0:11:04.320 --> 0:11:07.920 what will happen as a result, including some people who 0:11:08.000 --> 0:11:12.120 have hypothesized that in the future, maybe as early as 0:11:12.160 --> 0:11:15.840 twenty fifty, we will have a culture where it will 0:11:15.880 --> 0:11:19.640 be uh, completely acceptable for a human being to marry 0:11:19.720 --> 0:11:24.600 a robot by people. I'm specifically talking about Dr David Levy, 0:11:24.640 --> 0:11:29.560 who is a chess master, and while he was active 0:11:29.960 --> 0:11:33.800 playing chess in various tournaments, he witnessed the growth of 0:11:33.840 --> 0:11:37.920 AI within chess tournaments and at first AI and chess 0:11:38.080 --> 0:11:41.000 was you know, serviceable. It could beat your average player, 0:11:41.360 --> 0:11:44.199 but was not good at going up against chess masters. 0:11:44.200 --> 0:11:47.880 Who would have lots of different flexible plans for changing 0:11:47.920 --> 0:11:53.520 up their game, which could really uh confuse AI chess AI. 0:11:53.960 --> 0:11:55.760 And for a long time he just saw that it 0:11:55.800 --> 0:12:00.320 wasn't really a match for a truly confident player, but 0:12:00.559 --> 0:12:03.880 that AI got better and better, and eventually Dr Levy 0:12:03.920 --> 0:12:07.400 began to get really interested in AI. He then pursued 0:12:07.520 --> 0:12:11.160 a pH d and his thesis was all about human 0:12:11.440 --> 0:12:15.880 robotic relationships, and he did studies on everything from the 0:12:16.040 --> 0:12:20.719 history of marriage and the cultural significance of marriage, human relationships, 0:12:20.800 --> 0:12:24.319 artificial intelligence, and eventually came to this conclusion that by 0:12:24.320 --> 0:12:26.840 twenty fifty it would be legal for humans and robots 0:12:26.840 --> 0:12:29.240 to mary. He said, it wasn't just a possibility, it 0:12:29.280 --> 0:12:33.839 was a certainty. I mean, assuming that convincing AI is 0:12:33.960 --> 0:12:37.520 actually achievable, and that we can not only achieve it 0:12:37.559 --> 0:12:41.200 but put it in a form factor of a human 0:12:41.720 --> 0:12:45.040 humanoid robot, that it was only a matter time before 0:12:45.080 --> 0:12:47.200 someone falls in love with such a thing, and then 0:12:47.640 --> 0:12:50.199 from that point only a matter of time before it's 0:12:50.360 --> 0:12:54.840 socially acceptable and maybe you know, also legally acceptable for 0:12:54.920 --> 0:12:58.520 a human to marry a robot. Now that's an interesting idea, 0:12:58.640 --> 0:13:01.440 and there are people who very much disagree with it, 0:13:02.040 --> 0:13:05.440 but I thought was certainly something that we should discuss. Yeah, 0:13:05.480 --> 0:13:09.280 one of the technical challenges before we get into talking 0:13:09.320 --> 0:13:12.640 about the implications of it, I think, is the idea 0:13:12.800 --> 0:13:16.920 of this would be going beyond Turing. Right, So we 0:13:17.040 --> 0:13:21.040 talked about the Turing test previously, uh, And the basic 0:13:21.120 --> 0:13:24.240 idea behind the Turing test is can you create a 0:13:24.440 --> 0:13:27.720 robot that chats in a way that is convincingly human, 0:13:28.360 --> 0:13:31.360 that can sort of do text chat with you, uh, 0:13:31.440 --> 0:13:34.560 and say things that really get you convinced, Okay, this 0:13:34.600 --> 0:13:36.440 is a real human being and this is a true 0:13:36.480 --> 0:13:40.840 intelligence behind these words that says nothing about what you 0:13:41.080 --> 0:13:44.840 feel about that human being, only that it can convince 0:13:44.880 --> 0:13:47.560 you that it's not a machine. And I think the 0:13:47.679 --> 0:13:50.720 leap from I think this is a real, flesh and 0:13:50.760 --> 0:13:54.080 blood human being to this is somebody that I would 0:13:54.080 --> 0:13:56.679 really like to spend a lot of time with is 0:13:56.720 --> 0:13:59.920 a big leap. A Turing computer could be a jerk. 0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:04.160 I really think that you're being a little uh, you know, 0:14:04.200 --> 0:14:05.840 I think it's actually not as big a leap as 0:14:05.840 --> 0:14:09.240 you think it is. Yes, because we have already seen 0:14:09.320 --> 0:14:13.840 evidence of incredibly sophisticated computer programs that can analyze what 0:14:14.000 --> 0:14:17.520 you like based upon the the activities you do already 0:14:17.600 --> 0:14:21.400 and that are already shared on say a social networking site, 0:14:21.720 --> 0:14:25.120 where based upon the actions you take, someone can learn 0:14:25.160 --> 0:14:27.680 a lot about you just with a few data points. 0:14:27.720 --> 0:14:29.800 You might think like, I don't share that much, and 0:14:29.880 --> 0:14:33.880 yet a program such as or a social networking platform 0:14:33.920 --> 0:14:37.200 like Facebook can quote unquote know a lot about you 0:14:37.240 --> 0:14:40.760 based upon your behavior. Now, if imagine that you have 0:14:40.840 --> 0:14:45.160 not only a chatbot that can realistically simulate a humans 0:14:45.160 --> 0:14:49.040 responses so that you don't know that it's uh an 0:14:49.120 --> 0:14:52.160 artificially intelligent construct on the other end of those words, 0:14:52.200 --> 0:14:55.200 but it also is able to incorporate all the things 0:14:55.240 --> 0:14:58.960 you like and incorporate that into a conversation naturally. So 0:14:59.040 --> 0:15:01.840 now it's not just personality, but the personality that starts 0:15:01.880 --> 0:15:04.840 to share some of your same interests and passions. I 0:15:04.840 --> 0:15:07.480 could easily see someone falling in love with that. Also, 0:15:07.520 --> 0:15:10.720 I should add I met my wife online through a 0:15:10.800 --> 0:15:14.520 chat room, fell in love with my wife, met her 0:15:14.560 --> 0:15:16.600 for the first time in person after we had already 0:15:16.640 --> 0:15:21.520 been quote unquote dating online. And so to me, this 0:15:21.640 --> 0:15:25.680 is a very realistic kind of outcome. Uh yeah, but 0:15:25.720 --> 0:15:29.520 I would say I'm sure you would acknowledge is that 0:15:29.600 --> 0:15:32.560 your wife is a wonderful human being who she's pretty 0:15:32.560 --> 0:15:36.640 good is a human being who happened to be who 0:15:36.720 --> 0:15:39.840 she was to begin with. And if you were to 0:15:40.200 --> 0:15:45.360 interact with a human being who had done extensive research 0:15:45.400 --> 0:15:49.480 and analytics on you and tailored everything they said in 0:15:49.560 --> 0:15:53.720 getting to know you with the eye towards pleasing you, 0:15:54.400 --> 0:15:56.560 that would probably make you feel weird if you were 0:15:56.600 --> 0:15:59.160 to discover that. Let me counter that. Let's say, instead 0:15:59.200 --> 0:16:02.280 of a person to the tailors everything to seem like 0:16:02.320 --> 0:16:06.120 it pleases you, it's just a certain probabilistic approach, a 0:16:06.160 --> 0:16:10.440 certain percentage. And if it's a an intelligence that has 0:16:10.480 --> 0:16:15.160 access to essentially everybody's likes and dislikes, you could have 0:16:15.400 --> 0:16:18.720 an artificial personality that seems to have interests that are 0:16:18.760 --> 0:16:21.680 completely independent of yours. So, in other words, seems like 0:16:21.680 --> 0:16:25.360 a fully fleshed out personality. So let's say, for example, Joe, 0:16:25.400 --> 0:16:29.120 that you uh, you happen to love hiking, but you 0:16:29.280 --> 0:16:34.600 despise smooth jazz, and this this robotic construct doesn't really 0:16:34.640 --> 0:16:36.960 care for hiking but love smooth jazz. However, there are 0:16:37.000 --> 0:16:39.840 other things that you have in common, so as you 0:16:39.920 --> 0:16:43.360 have discussions with this artificial personality, some things you find 0:16:43.360 --> 0:16:46.120 out are different from the stuff you like, which is important. 0:16:46.160 --> 0:16:48.720 I think in relationships, you know, you know, that's another 0:16:48.760 --> 0:16:51.880 real coy of yourself, Which is why it kind of 0:16:51.880 --> 0:16:54.720 goes back to my concerns about the people who have 0:16:54.800 --> 0:16:58.840 these emotional relationships with dolls, because ultimately they are kind 0:16:58.840 --> 0:17:01.680 of having a relationship of themselves because the dolls themselves, 0:17:02.040 --> 0:17:05.680 they imbue a personality upon those dolls, right, the dolls 0:17:05.720 --> 0:17:09.119 themselves don't have a personality. So but in this case, 0:17:09.160 --> 0:17:12.639 talking about an artificial personality, I could easily see something. 0:17:12.800 --> 0:17:15.159 It wouldn't even have to be terribly sophisticated in the 0:17:15.160 --> 0:17:18.720 grand scheme of things that could be completely convincing. It's 0:17:18.760 --> 0:17:22.080 kind of the the argument that was introduced by Stepford 0:17:22.080 --> 0:17:24.399 Wives is kind of silly of an example as that 0:17:24.440 --> 0:17:27.080 can be, which which originally if if you've never seen 0:17:27.160 --> 0:17:30.000 either of the films, was a novel by um Ira 0:17:30.119 --> 0:17:36.680 Levin in two but okay, spoiler spoiler alert on Stepford Wives, y'all, 0:17:37.359 --> 0:17:39.600 it turns out that these that these men in this 0:17:39.680 --> 0:17:44.600 community are creating robot versions of their wives and like 0:17:44.720 --> 0:17:48.359 idealized idealized robot versions of their wives who will be 0:17:48.400 --> 0:17:50.520 happy cooking and cleaning for them and all of that. 0:17:50.600 --> 0:17:54.879 Kind of essentially they become the subservient, always pleased, uh, 0:17:55.280 --> 0:17:59.199 never upset with their husbands, like there's there's not supposed 0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:02.920 to be any kind of conflict at home sort of stuff. 0:18:03.359 --> 0:18:06.119 It's it's, it's and it's showing a really dark side 0:18:06.119 --> 0:18:09.000 to that very typical kind of fantasy where you're thinking 0:18:09.040 --> 0:18:12.520 about Mr. Or Mrs Wright and in your mind Mr. 0:18:12.560 --> 0:18:15.000 And Mrs Wright might be a person with whom you 0:18:15.080 --> 0:18:18.240 have perfect harmony and everything goes well, and they they're 0:18:19.040 --> 0:18:23.040 You're You're happy to you want right you Maybe maybe 0:18:23.040 --> 0:18:26.600 it's maybe in your fantasy it's also reciprocal, where you 0:18:26.640 --> 0:18:31.080 are both catering to each other's desires and fantasies and 0:18:31.400 --> 0:18:34.800 needs and wants. That that's possible and may not just 0:18:34.880 --> 0:18:37.480 be a one sided thing. I'm not suggesting that Mr. 0:18:37.680 --> 0:18:40.560 Mrs Wright fantasy is always going to be purely selfish, 0:18:40.640 --> 0:18:43.840 but it still is this idealized version. And the question 0:18:44.040 --> 0:18:47.080 is if you were actually able to achieve that, if 0:18:47.480 --> 0:18:49.080 in other words, if you were able to have like 0:18:49.119 --> 0:18:54.359 a tailor designed personality, whether it's an artificial intelligence chat 0:18:54.440 --> 0:18:58.640 bot or an actual robotic you know, presence, would that 0:18:59.080 --> 0:19:01.119 eventually being that you would would you be able to 0:19:01.119 --> 0:19:05.760 have like a satisfying, meaningful relationship with that artificial construct? 0:19:05.880 --> 0:19:08.199 And furthermore, would it be mentally healthy for you to 0:19:08.359 --> 0:19:11.840 have the capacity to create a partner for yourself? Right? 0:19:11.960 --> 0:19:15.359 And one of the ethical implications I've had I've brought 0:19:15.480 --> 0:19:18.280 up and this is even before we talk about the 0:19:18.320 --> 0:19:21.560 possibility of a robot having any kind of self awareness 0:19:21.640 --> 0:19:25.399 or consciousness. Even if a robot can't, like, even if 0:19:25.440 --> 0:19:28.320 it's just running a very sophisticated program where it's simulating 0:19:28.320 --> 0:19:32.879 that here we're just talking about simulating behavior, and so 0:19:32.960 --> 0:19:36.639 to put in absolute terms, it has no experience, Like 0:19:36.640 --> 0:19:39.720 it's having no individual experience. There is nobody who is 0:19:39.800 --> 0:19:43.840 that robot exactly? Would it Even in that case, I 0:19:43.880 --> 0:19:48.720 still find it a little troubling personally to think of 0:19:48.920 --> 0:19:51.960 the possibility of of designing one of these things and 0:19:52.000 --> 0:19:54.640 then maybe two years down the road thinking this isn't 0:19:54.640 --> 0:19:56.840 really working out for me. I'm just gonna hit control all, 0:19:56.960 --> 0:20:00.000 delete and reprogram this robot from the ground up, give 0:20:00.080 --> 0:20:04.199 a brand new set of behaviors and personality traits and 0:20:04.240 --> 0:20:06.959 it'll be like I have a whole new person like 0:20:07.000 --> 0:20:09.520 to me, that's a little I don't know, it just 0:20:09.680 --> 0:20:12.280 maybe it's just because of my cultural background, in my 0:20:12.320 --> 0:20:14.520 social background, but it's a little troubling to me. Well, 0:20:14.560 --> 0:20:17.040 I would say one of the most important things about 0:20:17.119 --> 0:20:20.359 our relationships is that over time we grow and mature 0:20:20.400 --> 0:20:25.000 through conflict and compromise. Sure, and if you are if 0:20:25.040 --> 0:20:29.600 you are not experiencing any conflict and compromise in your relationship, 0:20:30.280 --> 0:20:34.080 you're you're probably not growing in your emotional maturity. Right, 0:20:34.200 --> 0:20:37.000 So would you be okay with a with a robot 0:20:37.240 --> 0:20:40.920 that had the kind of AI machine learning that would 0:20:41.119 --> 0:20:44.800 let it introduce conflict and resolution and growth in that 0:20:44.840 --> 0:20:48.200 way and in both yourself and your robot partner. I'm 0:20:48.200 --> 0:20:51.320 not sure what I would be okay with in terms 0:20:51.359 --> 0:20:54.719 of what other people do. So I'm not sure in 0:20:54.760 --> 0:20:58.160 this whole discussion that I feel comfortable saying what I 0:20:58.200 --> 0:21:01.399 feel would be right for their people or not. I 0:21:01.480 --> 0:21:04.800 certainly wouldn't feel right for it for myself. Yeah. Yeah, 0:21:04.840 --> 0:21:07.200 that's why I'm trying to do the same thing, Joe. 0:21:07.200 --> 0:21:09.720 I'm trying to approach this from okay, from my own 0:21:09.880 --> 0:21:13.640 personal standpoint for me, because I mean, I don't feel 0:21:13.640 --> 0:21:15.920 really comfortable telling other people what they should and shouldn't 0:21:15.920 --> 0:21:18.600 do either unless they're on my lawn, in which case 0:21:18.640 --> 0:21:21.679 I feel very comfortable doing it. But uh, you know, 0:21:21.760 --> 0:21:24.960 in this case, yeah, it's it's it's tricky stuff. It 0:21:25.040 --> 0:21:29.520 brings up this concept of machine ethics, which is interesting 0:21:29.640 --> 0:21:32.679 because it's a developing field, right. It's not something that 0:21:32.880 --> 0:21:36.919 is It's not like we have a carved in silicon 0:21:37.640 --> 0:21:40.439 list of rules, you know. It's not like Isaac as 0:21:40.480 --> 0:21:44.360 Abov's three Laws of Robotics that's been codified somehow. It's 0:21:44.359 --> 0:21:48.440 actually a developing field of study. Yeah. I mean machine ethics, 0:21:48.480 --> 0:21:51.840 I guess, is all about how to get robots or 0:21:51.880 --> 0:21:55.200 computers or machines whatever to behave in ways that we 0:21:55.240 --> 0:21:59.320 would consider ethical. And it's a complex field because it 0:21:59.359 --> 0:22:03.680 involves number one, not just how to get their intelligence 0:22:03.720 --> 0:22:06.879 working in a way that it executes ethical decisions, but 0:22:07.000 --> 0:22:10.760 number two involves questions we haven't even necessarily settled here 0:22:10.760 --> 0:22:13.679 in the world for ourselves, like what is ethical in 0:22:13.720 --> 0:22:17.480 any given situation and in a human to human interaction? Yeah, 0:22:17.560 --> 0:22:19.760 let alone a human too machine interaction, which I think 0:22:19.760 --> 0:22:23.119 should be the which is not really what Asthmov covers 0:22:23.160 --> 0:22:25.080 in those three laws of ethics, but I think is 0:22:25.119 --> 0:22:28.480 possibly the more important kind of responsibility of if we 0:22:28.520 --> 0:22:32.240 are creating something that is capable of having any kind 0:22:32.240 --> 0:22:35.600 of individual experience, experiences, or emotions. Right, it's sort of 0:22:35.640 --> 0:22:37.600 the other way around. It's not just how do we 0:22:37.640 --> 0:22:40.800 get machines to behave ethically, but we need to think 0:22:40.800 --> 0:22:44.280 about do we need to behave ethically toward machine exactly, 0:22:44.480 --> 0:22:47.320 which we've talked about before in our robot Rights podcast. 0:22:47.880 --> 0:22:50.080 So if we get to a point where we're able 0:22:50.200 --> 0:22:55.760 to have robotic some sort of robotic potential spouse that 0:22:56.000 --> 0:22:59.720 seems to have a fully fleshed out personality instead of 0:22:59.760 --> 0:23:02.720 behave of yours, seems at least on the surface to 0:23:02.800 --> 0:23:06.119 have the same sort of qualities that another human being 0:23:06.160 --> 0:23:09.640 would have. So you're saying, like its own independent personality, 0:23:09.760 --> 0:23:12.960 you can't reprogram it, it will right right it it 0:23:13.040 --> 0:23:16.040