1 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:10,120 Speaker 1: And the patients would come out on the front lawn. 2 00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:12,799 Speaker 2: But as the city moved that way, they had to 3 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 2: bar the poor chests because they became a buggy problem. 4 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 3: Well, they would get out and show out on the 5 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:25,239 Speaker 3: lawn and people would stop riding around. 6 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:30,160 Speaker 4: Oh no, no horse than Puggy. 7 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 2: Over the course of the Old Asylum's life, it grew, 8 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 2: Jackson grew around it, its story unspooled threads, joining the 9 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 2: tapestry of ever expanding daily life in central Mississippi. Back 10 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:48,600 Speaker 2: at the State Hospital Museum, Donna Brown and Kathy Denton 11 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:51,240 Speaker 2: showed us around a room full of photos and memorabilia 12 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:52,479 Speaker 2: from the Old Asylum. 13 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 5: There are a lot of stories too. 14 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 6: If you look closely at the picture, you can see 15 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 6: there's a road that turned here in circles up close 16 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:06,720 Speaker 6: to the building Sunday afternoons and Jackson, it was a 17 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 6: common fun thing to do to go picnic on the 18 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:15,160 Speaker 6: grounds and watch the crazy people. 19 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:22,160 Speaker 2: After the Old Asylum shuddered its doors when its buildings 20 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 2: were torn down in the fifties, the stories died down 21 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:28,679 Speaker 2: for a bit too, But with the rediscovery of the 22 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 2: Asylum Hills Cemetery, the lore is also coming back to 23 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:37,480 Speaker 2: Life Asylum Hills. Lady Gibson even has her own well. 24 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:41,759 Speaker 7: The first time I heard about the Old Asylum was 25 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:45,399 Speaker 7: from my mother. My mother is still with us, she 26 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:50,040 Speaker 7: is ninety five years old, but she remembers as a 27 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:56,280 Speaker 7: child driving through the gravel driveway in front of the 28 00:01:56,360 --> 00:02:02,160 Speaker 7: asylum on Sunday afternoons and waving at the patients. We've 29 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 7: had lots of people who've come from the community and said, yeah, 30 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 7: oh yeah, that was like the place to go. 31 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:16,080 Speaker 2: For the most part, the stories that survive are the 32 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 2: ones that lean into the Southern Gothic of it all. 33 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 2: Here's Billy Wayne's cousin. 34 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:27,079 Speaker 1: I knew that the Old Asylum was there because I've 35 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:30,919 Speaker 1: talked to friends that are a little older than I 36 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:36,760 Speaker 1: am that remember the asylum. I remember one of my 37 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 1: friends I never will forget. He would walk past it 38 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 1: some times at night and hear those poor souls. I 39 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:48,960 Speaker 1: remember that's expression he used. I could hear those poor 40 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:55,280 Speaker 1: souls wailing in the asylum. 41 00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 2: The final years of the Asylum did not leave a 42 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:02,239 Speaker 2: great impression on Jackson. That shifting Yazoo Clay had done 43 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 2: a number on the Foundation, which was then doing a 44 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:09,639 Speaker 2: number on the walls and ceilings. Plaster was literally crumbling 45 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 2: onto the patient buds, but repairs were out of the question. 46 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 2: Any state funds flowed to the new state hospital being built, 47 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:19,120 Speaker 2: the one out in Whitfield. 48 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 7: Whitfield was funded by the legislature in nineteen twenty six. 49 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:29,400 Speaker 7: Then the depression happened. Then there were shortages of everything, 50 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:32,760 Speaker 7: you know, and so the building of Whitfield and the 51 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:36,240 Speaker 7: opening of Whitfield was delayed until nineteen thirty five. So 52 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 7: you had from nineteen twenty six to nineteen thirty five 53 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 7: when they were trying not to put any more money 54 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 7: into this building that was literally condemned by the time 55 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 7: the patients moved out. 56 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 2: When the new State Hospital Whitfield opened its stores, the 57 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 2: old asylum shut its own and there wasn't a lick 58 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 2: of overlap between the two. 59 00:03:56,720 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 8: The old asylum closed, Field opened, completely new staff, completely 60 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 8: new department of the Mississippi government. It was not like 61 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:12,960 Speaker 8: it was a legacy institution. The last twenty five hundred 62 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:18,279 Speaker 8: patients from here went to Whitfield, but that's the only 63 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:21,719 Speaker 8: transfer that happened. It was a brand new operation. We 64 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:26,040 Speaker 8: had this huge institution that operated for eighty years and 65 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 8: then it remained derelict for twenty and then the University 66 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:35,039 Speaker 8: Medical Center comes on and there's no transfer of institutional memory. 67 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 8: The buildings were torn down, the cemetery remained derelict up 68 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 8: on the hill, unattended, forgotten, unused, unneeded. 69 00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:49,040 Speaker 2: Whitfield was about as blank of a slate as you 70 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 2: could find. If there were a way for the state 71 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:53,680 Speaker 2: to sanction forgetting, this was it. 72 00:04:54,560 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 8: Many of us, most of us in medicine, have sufficient egos, 73 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:05,160 Speaker 8: and we all believe that history starts with our arrival. 74 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 8: So the medical school opened and it was churning from 75 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 8: the very beginning, patient care and research and education, and 76 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:21,160 Speaker 8: no time to look back. And we're building this brand new, 77 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 8: modern medical center and we're looking forward. We have no 78 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 8: interest in preserving old, crumbling history. 79 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 2: Well except the old crumbling history is right there, a 80 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:39,719 Speaker 2: cemetery taking up twelve acres of this town. So the 81 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 2: real question is what kind of space will Jackson make 82 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 2: for the people interred there. I'm Larison Campbell and this 83 00:05:50,680 --> 00:06:03,800 Speaker 2: is under Yazoo Clay. When we sat down with Leta 84 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 2: for one of our mini chats, her phone rang mid interview. 85 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:09,800 Speaker 2: Most days that would be a pretty big bummer, but 86 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 2: not this time. The person on the other end of 87 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 2: the line was Kimberly Jackson, a descendant. 88 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 7: Hey, Kimberly, I am fine. So I was calling you 89 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:30,600 Speaker 7: because I have found some information about SINNI and I'm 90 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:33,200 Speaker 7: going to send you the forms that you need to 91 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:38,799 Speaker 7: fill out to get it. It's some patient records and anyway, 92 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 7: it's pretty self explanatory. But I also wanted to ask you. 93 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:47,480 Speaker 2: Kim is a lot of things to a lot of people. 94 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:50,320 Speaker 2: She's a school counselor right now pre k. 95 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 9: Through second grade. They thank you a superstar. Every day 96 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 9: you is like walking on a red carpet every day. 97 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:01,719 Speaker 2: She's a caregiver for her mother, for her aunt, and 98 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:05,159 Speaker 2: for her uncle. Chem is dedicated to doing it all. 99 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 2: That was clear even when we were trying to pin 100 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:08,880 Speaker 2: her down for an interview. 101 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 9: Time there's a yes, there is actually a count on 102 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 9: the third floor, but. 103 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 5: I mean it's oh really That might be. 104 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 2: The day we met her, she'd driven a little over 105 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 2: an hour from her home in Carthage, Mississippi. She was 106 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 2: in Jackson to bring her aunt and uncle to their 107 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 2: doctor's appointments, and so that's where we did the interview 108 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 2: on a couch outside the doctor's office, right next to 109 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 2: the vending machines and the elevator bank. So if you 110 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:38,320 Speaker 2: hear a clank or a ding, no, you know this 111 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:40,320 Speaker 2: is good. And that might be the fourth floor up there, 112 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 2: in which case it doesn't look like they have as 113 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 2: much area as we do. So perfect, okay, So thank 114 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 2: you for making this drive. 115 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 9: Yeah, welcome out. 116 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 5: Like I said, my aunt and uncle and they're on 117 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 5: the third floor. Yeah, they're right in there. Oh that's perfect. Okay, great, and. 118 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 2: My aunt's she swooped in for a hug. 119 00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 8: Hello. 120 00:07:57,160 --> 00:08:00,040 Speaker 2: I clocked her light pink long sleeve shirt with the 121 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 2: logan love yourself. It's abundantly clear that to Kim, family 122 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 2: is everything. Almost straight from the moment we arrived, she 123 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 2: wax poetic about a whole slew of relatives from her 124 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 2: grandmother's dating history. 125 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 9: One gentleman from the community said, I'm going to walk 126 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 9: you home, but let me run out here to get 127 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 9: a lamp. 128 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 2: You know, to her great uncle's fashion choices. 129 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 9: You wore these nickobaccas and thought that he was looking 130 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 9: real shop with these Nicobocca pants, you know. So they 131 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 9: would laugh and they jogan, But you think you something, 132 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 9: But these Nicobaca's on you know what. 133 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 2: The cloth of her life is made up of these 134 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 2: memories of these people. But like all the descendants we 135 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 2: spoke to, there was that familiar blank spot, a rent 136 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:57,439 Speaker 2: in the fabric. So if you would, yeah, I mean, 137 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:01,200 Speaker 2: tell tell us about your it's your great. 138 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:06,320 Speaker 5: Grandmother, right, So do you know about her? Uh? Bits 139 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 5: and pieces? 140 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:10,200 Speaker 9: So uh, since all of this has occurred, I found 141 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:15,440 Speaker 9: out a little bit more. Uh so I always we 142 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:20,319 Speaker 9: were always told her name was Zenny. She married my grandfather, 143 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 9: Monroe g and they. 144 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:23,800 Speaker 5: Had four children. 145 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 9: They had three boys and then a girl, which was 146 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 9: my grandmother Marie. So they lived in Conway, and my 147 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 9: great grandmother was born and raised in another community in 148 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 9: Leek County called Pilgrim Rest. And so all of a 149 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:52,320 Speaker 9: lot of her you know, family members uh are buried 150 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 9: in the Pilgrim Rest Church cemetery. 151 00:09:57,360 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 5: Except for her, But I'll get to that. 152 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:05,439 Speaker 2: Pilgrim Rest was a small community not too far away. 153 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:11,079 Speaker 2: Zenny's whole family was nearby. But then things went south 154 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:15,559 Speaker 2: for Zenny. Her mom died. It shook everyone in the family, 155 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 2: but no one more than Zenny, a young mother herself. 156 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 9: And as the story goes, when her mother passed away, 157 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 9: she became, I guess, so despondent with grief that she 158 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 9: slowly started to her mental health started to decline. My 159 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 9: grandmother always said that she had a nervous breakdown. 160 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 2: Kim's grandmother was Jenny's youngest child, not even ten years 161 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:48,600 Speaker 2: old yet. 162 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:54,680 Speaker 9: One cousin said that she would leave home. She would 163 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:57,480 Speaker 9: put my grandma on a hip and take off walking, 164 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 9: and you know, people be like, know where is it? 165 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:02,680 Speaker 9: You know, looking for where is it? And she would 166 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 9: hit a ride going to Pilgrim Rest. She would just 167 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:09,440 Speaker 9: take off, woo, did a ride, go to Pilgrim Rest, 168 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 9: you know, hitch ragg get on, you know, and come back. 169 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:16,520 Speaker 9: They said she'd always come back, She'd always come back. 170 00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 9: My great grandfather was able to get her admitted to 171 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:22,560 Speaker 9: Asylum Hill. 172 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 2: But Kem's great grandfathers and his husband, Monroe, remained devoted. 173 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 2: His wife was his wife in sickness or in health. 174 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 9: According to my cousins, my great grandfather would to visit 175 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 9: her at least three times. 176 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:46,720 Speaker 5: And that must have been a hard track. 177 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 9: Exactly that Now that touched me because when I think 178 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 9: about now, this is Mississippi in the nineteen late night 179 00:11:57,679 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 9: the late teens, you know, him traveling either by wagon 180 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:04,120 Speaker 9: or a very. 181 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:05,320 Speaker 5: A model TA kind of a car. 182 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 9: Who knows, you know, to think about him getting back 183 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 9: and forth three times. 184 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 5: Or he loved her. You can't tell me you didn't 185 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:13,719 Speaker 5: love her. 186 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:18,560 Speaker 9: He was if he was determined to visit her three times. 187 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 5: Yeah, he meant to bring her home. 188 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 9: Until he for some reason, thought that he couldn't. He 189 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 9: and her family were thinking, of course, that this was 190 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 9: going to be a short term stay, you know. And 191 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 9: so her brother said to my great grandfather, said, when. 192 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 5: Are you bringing this inning home? And he said, I 193 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:44,079 Speaker 5: don't know. 194 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 9: Every time I go, she gets further and further away 195 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:57,439 Speaker 9: from me. While she was at asylum, hell, she passed away. 196 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:01,720 Speaker 9: So as far as I know, it was through a telegram. 197 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:04,839 Speaker 9: Is how he found out that she passed. As far 198 00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:07,439 Speaker 9: as I know, he was not able to see her 199 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 9: before she was buried. You know, they thinking she's going 200 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 9: somewhere for a little while, and she never comes back. 201 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:18,000 Speaker 9: You know, I my heart, my heart has gone out 202 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 9: to them, and I can tear her up now thinking 203 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:21,840 Speaker 9: about that that. You know, you're thinking she you know 204 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 9: she'll be back. You know she's gonna get some help 205 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:30,440 Speaker 9: and she'll be back. And so my grandmother wasn't even 206 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 9: she wasn't ten, and the last memory she had of 207 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:40,000 Speaker 9: her mother was her making her a birthday cake. 208 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 2: The largest art museum in the state, the Mississippi Museum 209 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:58,880 Speaker 2: of Art connects Mississippi to the world and the power 210 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:02,720 Speaker 2: of art to the power community. Located in downtown Jackson, 211 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 2: the museum's permanent collection is free to the public. National 212 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:10,200 Speaker 2: and international exhibitions rotate throughout the year, allowing visitors to 213 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:13,959 Speaker 2: experience works from around the world. The gardens at Expansive 214 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 2: Lawn at the Mississippi Museum of Art are home to 215 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 2: art installations and a variety of events for all ages. 216 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 2: Plan your visit today at MS Museum art dot org. 217 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 2: That's MS Museum art dot org. The Southern ethos, the 218 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 2: reverence for the grave ran deep in Kim's family. Cemeteries 219 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:40,400 Speaker 2: have been part of her life since childhood. 220 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:44,040 Speaker 5: My grandma was being on visiting cemeteries. It was it 221 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:45,320 Speaker 5: was a whole thing for. 222 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:48,360 Speaker 9: Them to have the churches to get together and clean 223 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 9: the cemetery. You know, mowld the lawn of the cemetery 224 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 9: changed out the flowers. 225 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 5: That was the whole thing. That was a day set 226 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 5: aside to do that kind of thing. 227 00:14:57,400 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 9: Look, I'm we going, I went to I'm a little kid, 228 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 9: I'm at all the funerals. It felt like, you know, 229 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 9: you know, there was there was always obituaries and always, 230 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 9: of course, like I said, stories to be told, and 231 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:12,760 Speaker 9: but hers was always that sense of unknown. 232 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:17,720 Speaker 2: Kim's grandmother had no grave to point to, just one memory, 233 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 2: one story of her mother she could pass down to 234 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 2: her own children. 235 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 9: It was a happy memory, but there was only one 236 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 9: memory of her baking this cake for her birthday. And 237 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 9: to then go from that to news of her, of 238 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:41,680 Speaker 9: her passing, it's just just a lot of gaps and 239 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 9: a sense of a little bit sense of longing. 240 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 5: Now. 241 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 9: She would never really dwell on it too long, Like 242 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 9: if she mentioned her, she would say a little something 243 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:51,880 Speaker 9: and that was it. So she wasn't she didn't ever 244 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:54,440 Speaker 9: shy away from it. But there was just always this 245 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:57,440 Speaker 9: sense of that's all there is, you know, that like 246 00:15:57,480 --> 00:15:59,760 Speaker 9: there was this is the end of the store, there's 247 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 9: nothing else but love. 248 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 5: But what Twain's are saying. 249 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 10: I mean, that's really interesting because I feel like we've 250 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 10: talked to so many there, you know, a fair number 251 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 10: of people at this point who had relatives who were 252 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:13,440 Speaker 10: in there, And it's kind of the reactions I've heard 253 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 10: have been a little bit different in that I think 254 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 10: there's a lot of shame associated. 255 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:21,520 Speaker 5: But they never had it. They never tried to keep 256 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:22,200 Speaker 5: it a secret. 257 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 9: It wasn't a secret that she went to Whitfield, as 258 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 9: they called it. 259 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 5: It was never they never did. 260 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:31,520 Speaker 9: Never did they, And I will say that, yeah, it 261 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:33,040 Speaker 9: wasn't something they tried to had. 262 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 5: They were always very upfront about it. 263 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 2: Her family never tried to hide her. But Zenny got 264 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:48,640 Speaker 2: lost anyhow. Part of the confusion was bureaucratic. In Mississippi 265 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:52,120 Speaker 2: these days, when people say asylum, they mean Whitfield, the 266 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 2: current state hospital. Ken and her family, like many Mississippians, 267 00:16:57,160 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 2: never even knew there was an old asylum in Jackson. 268 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 9: As time went on, they called it Whitfield. So in 269 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:06,120 Speaker 9: our minds, we're thinking that she was buried where Whitville 270 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:07,680 Speaker 9: is out in Pearl somewhere. 271 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:11,640 Speaker 2: So when Kim went to search for her great grandmother's records, 272 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 2: she contacted Whitfield. Every time they just say they had 273 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:22,280 Speaker 2: no records of Zenny because Zenny was never there for Kim. 274 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:25,879 Speaker 2: It felt like the asylum had just swallowed her hole, 275 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:34,440 Speaker 2: but Zenny hadn't vanished. She was closer than anyone knew. 276 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:38,960 Speaker 9: My grandmother attended Tougaloo, So when I think about it, 277 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:42,640 Speaker 9: she was not that far from where her mother was buried, 278 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:47,440 Speaker 9: and she had no idea, no idea that that's where 279 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:48,200 Speaker 9: she was buried. 280 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:51,960 Speaker 2: Tugalu College is in Jackson, just six miles from the 281 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:56,600 Speaker 2: old asylum, and for decades, Zenni's daughter and then her 282 00:17:56,640 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 2: granddaughter and finally her great granddaughter has right by that 283 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:12,879 Speaker 2: cemetery like ships in the night until remember back in 284 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:16,120 Speaker 2: episode two that pr road show that the Asylum Hill 285 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:19,560 Speaker 2: project went on the one where they spoken rotary clubs 286 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:20,679 Speaker 2: and put out newspaper. 287 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 9: Adds, I see an ad in the Carthaginian, which is 288 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 9: our local newspaper, and it mentioned that the following people were. 289 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:36,040 Speaker 5: Believed to have been buried. 290 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:42,639 Speaker 9: At Asylum Hill, and I see her name, and so 291 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:45,400 Speaker 9: it had a contact number. It turned out to be lighter, 292 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:50,439 Speaker 9: and so that's how I found out. 293 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:55,120 Speaker 5: You have a watch roots. You know how Alex Halen. 294 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 9: When he made it to Africa and he went to 295 00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:00,880 Speaker 9: the he went. 296 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:04,359 Speaker 5: To the to the village where Cooter Kintate was born, 297 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 5: and he was like, I found you. You know, That's 298 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:08,560 Speaker 5: how I felt. I was like, oh my god, we 299 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:09,160 Speaker 5: found her. 300 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:12,879 Speaker 9: I found him, and I let my family know, you know, 301 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:14,480 Speaker 9: and you know the whole you know. 302 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:16,199 Speaker 5: It was like, oh my go I told Mama first. I 303 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:16,720 Speaker 5: told her. 304 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:18,480 Speaker 9: I was like, you know, Grandma's in the name in 305 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:22,960 Speaker 9: the paper, you know, and uh yeah, So it was 306 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:30,440 Speaker 9: I felt a sense of especially a sense of relief. 307 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:34,199 Speaker 9: But just to know that, you know, it's just I 308 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 9: was just so it was just mind boggling that to 309 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 9: think that, to see her name in print, to know that, 310 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:48,400 Speaker 9: oh there's more to the story. I'm able to fill 311 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:52,040 Speaker 9: in the gaps, just mind blowing because think about this, 312 00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:54,399 Speaker 9: by this time, my mama was in her late seventies, 313 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 9: you know, finding all of this out, and so, like 314 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:01,440 Speaker 9: I said, all of a sud sudden zen, it went 315 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:05,440 Speaker 9: from being you know, a story to you a real 316 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:08,119 Speaker 9: you know, a person you think about, a person with 317 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:12,439 Speaker 9: a whole entire life, you know, not just you know, 318 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:17,360 Speaker 9: creating a home life with you know, her grandfather and 319 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:19,280 Speaker 9: you know, having my you know, because basically it was 320 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:22,840 Speaker 9: when they when they heard of Grandma's in it. It was 321 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:25,199 Speaker 9: the same way she told it to us. You know, 322 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:27,879 Speaker 9: there was there was no extra stories, you know what 323 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:31,520 Speaker 9: I'm saying. And so to go from wow, so you 324 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 9: know there was an actual they go from being her 325 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 9: being admitted to the hospital to her dying. No no 326 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:43,160 Speaker 9: news of what happened while she was. 327 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 5: There, no nothing. 328 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:50,119 Speaker 2: What is it about connecting like these dots? 329 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 10: What what does it as the person who's still alive today? 330 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:58,639 Speaker 5: Like what does it give you? And for lack of 331 00:20:58,640 --> 00:20:59,920 Speaker 5: a better word, completeness. 332 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:10,600 Speaker 9: My people always talked about their family, always, both sides, 333 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 9: you know, always was all of this talk about remember 334 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 9: what grandma did, Remember what uncle so and so did, 335 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:21,800 Speaker 9: her cousin so and so. There was always these stories 336 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:25,520 Speaker 9: always and when it came and so it makes me, 337 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:27,399 Speaker 9: like I said, it makes me give a a sense 338 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:30,720 Speaker 9: of completion in a way finding zen it and I 339 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:33,639 Speaker 9: just really feel like, ah, I got it. 340 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:37,720 Speaker 5: This is what this is? This it it it It 341 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:38,640 Speaker 5: feels me. 342 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:44,320 Speaker 9: To finally know that there was an end to her 343 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:47,040 Speaker 9: story where the hap air said there was an end, 344 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:52,440 Speaker 9: because it didn't. It was just such a mystery, such 345 00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 9: a mystery as to what happened to her, well just 346 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:58,399 Speaker 9: about everybody else, you know. You know, there was a 347 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:00,480 Speaker 9: beginning to the story and there's an end at the store, 348 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 9: and they had they have the whole in, you know, 349 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:07,159 Speaker 9: the whole middle. That wasn't that with her, That was 350 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:08,000 Speaker 9: not that with her. 351 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 2: Come has something a lot of other descendants have been 352 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:17,440 Speaker 2: looking for. She can just about point to the spot 353 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:18,639 Speaker 2: where Zenny is buried. 354 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:23,119 Speaker 9: There's a grove of trees and the grassy area. If 355 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 9: I'm not mistaken, that's where she would have been buried. 356 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 9: I ride by there now and think, you know, she's there. 357 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:32,480 Speaker 9: I think about it as her burial place. You know, 358 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 9: when I drive by, I look out there and I think, 359 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:38,439 Speaker 9: you know there you you know, there she is. And 360 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:41,520 Speaker 9: that's what my grandmother and her siblings did not ever have, 361 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:44,840 Speaker 9: was a sense of there she is, or we can 362 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 9: go out there and visit her when we would like to, 363 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:47,960 Speaker 9: or drive by. 364 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:51,320 Speaker 5: They did not have that sense at all. They never 365 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:52,560 Speaker 5: knew where she was. 366 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:56,600 Speaker 2: So come checks in with her. She fills Anny in 367 00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 2: on what's become of her family. 368 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:02,439 Speaker 9: Now, somebody they your children will raise, would love, so 369 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:06,439 Speaker 9: you know, don't think that you know, they were just 370 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 9: out there in the world left to their own devices. No, 371 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 9: they were raised in the manner you would have want 372 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:13,440 Speaker 9: them to be raised. 373 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 5: They were loved in the way that you will want 374 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:18,680 Speaker 5: them to be loved. We did not ever forget about you. 375 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:23,879 Speaker 9: You always loved, you always missed. We just did not forget. 376 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 9: But now we have found. 377 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:38,080 Speaker 2: You come as the poster child for what the Asylum 378 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:39,880 Speaker 2: Hell Project is hoping to pull off. 379 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 8: I will tell this story anywhere I can. I would 380 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:47,199 Speaker 8: be happy to. I think the more we get the 381 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 8: word out, the deeper our engagement will be with the community, 382 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:55,000 Speaker 8: the more transparent will be, and the more stories that 383 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:55,760 Speaker 8: will hear. 384 00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:59,520 Speaker 2: Back by the way, Doctor Deadlake says that any descendants 385 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:02,399 Speaker 2: who may be listening can contact the Asylum Hill Project 386 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:05,320 Speaker 2: through its website Asylum Hill dot org. 387 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 8: We'll be happy to talk to them, describe what we're doing, 388 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,640 Speaker 8: engage with them, see if they would like to give 389 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:15,000 Speaker 8: us a name to look for. 390 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:20,399 Speaker 2: But of course, the Asylum Hill Project isn't just about 391 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:25,159 Speaker 2: connecting descendants with information about their loved ones. It's about 392 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:29,199 Speaker 2: that land, the land that the medical center needs to 393 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 2: build more vital medical infrastructure, the land currently occupied by 394 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:41,359 Speaker 2: thousands of former patients, as they've talked to more people 395 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 2: like him. The folks at Asylum Hill have begun to 396 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:47,119 Speaker 2: formulate a plan, but it's one that will take time. 397 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:51,080 Speaker 2: There's the project of sorting archived patient records. 398 00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:54,520 Speaker 7: I think I estimated that it would take five years, 399 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:59,240 Speaker 7: given our current staffing, to just get everything indexed and separated. 400 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:04,200 Speaker 2: And of course the cemetery excavations, the process of removing 401 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:07,480 Speaker 2: the remains to make space for the medical center's expansion. 402 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,240 Speaker 3: In an ideal world, for instance, if we don't have 403 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:16,199 Speaker 3: constant flooding which always slows us down in Mississippi, and 404 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:22,120 Speaker 3: if we had an appropriate crew size, still like six 405 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:25,679 Speaker 3: or seven more years. And that's just for the excavation 406 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:29,480 Speaker 3: that it's not the analysis. If there are let's say, 407 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:30,960 Speaker 3: seven thousand graves. 408 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 2: We've talked a lot about final resting places here. That's 409 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:41,680 Speaker 2: what cemeteries are, right, except for this one. An important 410 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 2: thing to realize is that if we say there's seven 411 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:47,040 Speaker 2: thousand graves, that at the end of all this there 412 00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:51,240 Speaker 2: will be seven thousand sets of remains removed from the clay. 413 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:57,080 Speaker 2: And that brings up an awkward truth. There's a fine 414 00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:01,159 Speaker 2: line between being taken care of, treated like a burden. 415 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 2: It's hard not to worry that what these former patients are, 416 00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:11,399 Speaker 2: more than anything else, is in the way. And if 417 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:15,440 Speaker 2: there's one clear takeaway from talking with descendants, it's that 418 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:18,840 Speaker 2: the first and foremost duty of care owed to these 419 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:25,360 Speaker 2: patients is just respect, and sometimes that looks like acknowledgment, 420 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:29,440 Speaker 2: which doctor Didlake says is a part of what will 421 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:30,560 Speaker 2: happen next. 422 00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:34,400 Speaker 8: We're going to build a memorial on campus and not 423 00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:39,840 Speaker 8: re enter these individuals. That is administratively much more efficient. 424 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:46,440 Speaker 8: It's also makes those remains available to any wonderful technologies 425 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,560 Speaker 8: that are out over the horizon that can help identify 426 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:56,040 Speaker 8: these individuals and offer them to families for traditional burial. 427 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:02,920 Speaker 2: So what does it mean to make remains means more available. Well, 428 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 2: for starters, they're not going back into the ground anywhere. Instead, 429 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 2: the Asylum Hill Project will build a standalone mausoleum to 430 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:15,639 Speaker 2: house the remains above ground. This is partially in service 431 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,679 Speaker 2: of the budget. If they wanted to rebury the remains, 432 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,119 Speaker 2: they'd have to buy more land to do it on, 433 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:24,919 Speaker 2: but it's also in service of the core aim of 434 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:28,440 Speaker 2: the Asylum Hill Project to learn all they can about 435 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:32,679 Speaker 2: the old Asylum, including its patients. This whole thing is 436 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:36,639 Speaker 2: part of a university after all, and keeping everything above 437 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:42,680 Speaker 2: ground does keep the remains more available for research. There 438 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:46,720 Speaker 2: is the specter of spectacle with this plan. So Asylum 439 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:49,560 Speaker 2: Hill did what it does best. They went out to 440 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:52,520 Speaker 2: the descendant community and got their buy in for this 441 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 2: stage of the project too. 442 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:58,159 Speaker 7: Amazingly, I'm not sure any of us expected that we 443 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:00,960 Speaker 7: will be at this point to but here we are. 444 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:03,840 Speaker 7: And I mean there are people who I mean, there 445 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 7: are descendants who have said, you know what, I don't 446 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:09,400 Speaker 7: like the idea of my relative being disturbed, but if 447 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,199 Speaker 7: she has to be, then this is the way I 448 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:12,480 Speaker 7: want it. 449 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:17,640 Speaker 8: Tone just the level of positivity of that plan has 450 00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:22,919 Speaker 8: been stunning, both in the community at large and in 451 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:29,120 Speaker 8: the descendant community and our community advisory board. So we're 452 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:33,959 Speaker 8: very happy about that. So that paradigm is acceptable. 453 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 2: That paradigm is acceptable. It all ties back to that 454 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 2: Southern ethos, because maybe, just maybe building a new home 455 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:47,719 Speaker 2: for these remains in the heart of the city is 456 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:52,000 Speaker 2: the best chance for finally reintegrating these former patients with 457 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:57,640 Speaker 2: their community, interweaving the threads of their lives once again 458 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:00,360 Speaker 2: with the fabric of the city. 459 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 1: I say, people that don't appreciate and enjoy history. I said, well, 460 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:12,160 Speaker 1: we'll relegate them to the Dead Soul Society. You can't 461 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 1: explain it to them. 462 00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:15,240 Speaker 5: They just don't. 463 00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:17,400 Speaker 1: They just don't, you know, And I don't try to 464 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:18,240 Speaker 1: explain it there. 465 00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:20,280 Speaker 5: But it's a fascinating thing. 466 00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:23,920 Speaker 9: I feel at peace knowing that I found her. You know, 467 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:29,280 Speaker 9: I felt they send some peace knowing that refounder. So 468 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:33,480 Speaker 9: right now I'm just you know, living in that peace. 469 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:36,120 Speaker 5: The asylum has for me. 470 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:42,640 Speaker 11: It has become this almost like a I guess, a 471 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 11: historical shrine in my mind, because I look at Hillman, 472 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:52,480 Speaker 11: that's one story, and you multiplied that by, you know, 473 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:56,960 Speaker 11: a few thousand, and then you think about what it 474 00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 11: would mean to capture the stories and how we can 475 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 11: arrive at how that leads us to a sense of 476 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 11: our history, because you know, I don't feel like this 477 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:14,320 Speaker 11: is just my family's history. I you know, it's a 478 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:15,280 Speaker 11: bigger history. 479 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:19,240 Speaker 12: And my brother passed away two years ago some kind 480 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:22,680 Speaker 12: to kind of carry on what he had started. It 481 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 12: was very important, a lot more important to him all 482 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:27,840 Speaker 12: those years that he spent on it that it was 483 00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:29,480 Speaker 12: to me. I was just a kid, and I didn't 484 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:35,520 Speaker 12: didn't know, but as you get older, you know that means. 485 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 5: More to you. 486 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:38,680 Speaker 12: And so I'm sure he's there with my granddad saying 487 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:39,800 Speaker 12: where to go. 488 00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:40,160 Speaker 13: Brother. 489 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:44,760 Speaker 14: I just burst into tears. I really didn't expect to 490 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:45,040 Speaker 14: do that. 491 00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:46,080 Speaker 5: I hadn't even gotten into it. 492 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:48,680 Speaker 15: But that's what you're supposed to do when you hear 493 00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 15: his name, and that's what your body knows to do, 494 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 15: burst into tears. 495 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:59,040 Speaker 14: Any question that success. And there was an impulse like 496 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:02,520 Speaker 14: the two of us just stood there, held on to 497 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:06,880 Speaker 14: each other for a long time. I have no idea 498 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:09,960 Speaker 14: what was going around us while we were doing that, but. 499 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:14,000 Speaker 15: Yeah, I mean, the thing that strikes me about all 500 00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,640 Speaker 15: of it is how unfinished. All of it feels like, 501 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:21,440 Speaker 15: all the conversations, all of the interactions, there's nothing like, wow, 502 00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:25,440 Speaker 15: that's done. There's nothing done, you know, not remotely done. 503 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:31,400 Speaker 2: Nothing is done. None of it is finished. The family 504 00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:35,880 Speaker 2: story goes on because the family does a little more 505 00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:36,680 Speaker 2: whole than before. 506 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,239 Speaker 9: And it just felt like, you know, it was just 507 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:47,640 Speaker 9: a puzzle missing, you know, you it feels like now 508 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:50,120 Speaker 9: the piece, like I have the piece of the puzzle 509 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:52,920 Speaker 9: that I just felt like that my family needed. 510 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:56,840 Speaker 8: If you have any standing in the state of Mississippi. 511 00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:01,720 Speaker 8: Part of your work is writing wrongs. There are many 512 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 8: for this. 513 00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:05,520 Speaker 1: Project. 514 00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:10,240 Speaker 8: I don't see it so much as an overt effort 515 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:15,560 Speaker 8: to right wrongs, because I think that assumes the old 516 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:25,080 Speaker 8: stereotypical asylum motif of a terrible place, overcrowded, abandoned people, 517 00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:29,120 Speaker 8: and that's not the picture that's emerging from the history 518 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:29,880 Speaker 8: that we're collecting. 519 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:32,040 Speaker 1: Now. 520 00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:36,120 Speaker 8: Are there things that could have been done differently and 521 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:39,680 Speaker 8: we want to both acknowledge and learn from those. 522 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:48,960 Speaker 2: Sure, the story of Asylum Hill is one of discovery, memory, pain, 523 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:53,720 Speaker 2: and catharsis. But most of all, the story of Asylum 524 00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:59,479 Speaker 2: Hill is unexpected. A crew of scientists, historians, artist, school 525 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:06,160 Speaker 2: council professors, and gravedousers, all digging deeper in search of understanding. 526 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:25,440 Speaker 2: At the Mississippi Museum of Art, Noah's exhibit was up 527 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 2: for nearly six months. Visitors came through, sat with the work, 528 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:34,040 Speaker 2: reckoned with their own histories. Museum staff told me that 529 00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:36,560 Speaker 2: they lost count of how many people made a point 530 00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:39,280 Speaker 2: to let them know that Noah's family story of mental 531 00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:42,800 Speaker 2: illness was not all that unlike their own, and the 532 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:48,880 Speaker 2: exhibit offered another very tangible way for museum goers to engage. 533 00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:53,640 Speaker 4: Okay, so y'all this thread right here, I try to 534 00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:54,160 Speaker 4: go over. 535 00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:55,280 Speaker 5: It's not a big deal. 536 00:33:55,400 --> 00:34:00,040 Speaker 3: Then oh, I try to go over this and ideally. 537 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:02,360 Speaker 2: Out under the other one on its own. 538 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:04,680 Speaker 13: So don't even worry about that that was starting. I'll 539 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:07,480 Speaker 13: go over it because that, in the end makes it 540 00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:09,040 Speaker 13: loop around the edge. 541 00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:12,759 Speaker 2: Well, on the night of Noah's opening, we noticed this 542 00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:18,080 Speaker 2: hulking structure, blond wood and string. It was tucked into 543 00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:21,080 Speaker 2: the corner of the room next to Noah's painting, cordoned 544 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:23,120 Speaker 2: off behind red velvet ropes. 545 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:26,000 Speaker 13: Like I was saying, you can make the end sort 546 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:27,120 Speaker 13: of come. 547 00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:32,360 Speaker 4: To about this point perfect, that'll be fine, and then 548 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:33,640 Speaker 4: let your foot off. 549 00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:37,720 Speaker 2: It was a loom four feet wide, maybe a bit taller. 550 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:41,800 Speaker 13: There's not a whole lot of these out in the world. 551 00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:44,480 Speaker 13: It was like a big batch of them made for 552 00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:47,920 Speaker 13: a craft school in Canada in the nineteen twenties, and 553 00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:50,600 Speaker 13: this is one of them. Sometimes people will contact me 554 00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:52,759 Speaker 13: because they'll be looking for Millville loom and they'll run 555 00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:53,960 Speaker 13: across me in contact me. 556 00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:54,920 Speaker 2: Like where'd you get it? 557 00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:57,280 Speaker 13: But looms are like that. 558 00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:01,080 Speaker 2: That was the loom's owner, my name's Emily Wicki. Emily's 559 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:04,799 Speaker 2: not a weaver by trade. She's an archaeological field tech, 560 00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:09,080 Speaker 2: one of the field tech's working on the Asylum hillsite. 561 00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:13,719 Speaker 4: It beat it down, okay, or we'll get this out. 562 00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:16,040 Speaker 2: She'd set this loom up at the museum with a 563 00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:21,600 Speaker 2: very specific project in mind, a collaborative one. Over the 564 00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:25,000 Speaker 2: course of the summer, anyone who'd come to see Noah's show, 565 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:28,400 Speaker 2: to visit the museum would be invited to weave a 566 00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:29,080 Speaker 2: few rows. 567 00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:29,799 Speaker 5: Yeah. 568 00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:33,880 Speaker 13: So my idea is for anyone that comes in that 569 00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:37,200 Speaker 13: will at once too that would feel as if it 570 00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:40,120 Speaker 13: will hopefully enjoy it, to sit down and add to this. 571 00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:44,040 Speaker 2: So I asked her about the colors of the threads. 572 00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:49,440 Speaker 2: She'd dyed them herself, using natural dyes like black walnut, indigo, 573 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:55,279 Speaker 2: golden rod, and yazoo clay, taken straight from the old 574 00:35:55,320 --> 00:36:01,200 Speaker 2: Asylum cemetery. The project is community driven to its core, 575 00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:05,520 Speaker 2: from the weavers down to the pattern Emily's embedded within 576 00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:06,959 Speaker 2: the loom. 577 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:09,080 Speaker 4: The warp is the vertical threads that. 578 00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:13,480 Speaker 13: Are running through this, and I did all of the 579 00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:16,600 Speaker 13: planning and setting a bath. It's called dressing the loom 580 00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:19,160 Speaker 13: because it takes so long to set it up, but 581 00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:22,839 Speaker 13: then to see it create this pattern that's you don't 582 00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:24,960 Speaker 13: even understand how it's happening. 583 00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:29,160 Speaker 2: Which the community represented in that pattern isn't just the living, 584 00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:31,480 Speaker 2: the people who can get to the museum and add 585 00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:36,280 Speaker 2: their personal touch to this cloth. It's also every patient 586 00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,000 Speaker 2: who passed through the doors of the old asylum between 587 00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:43,319 Speaker 2: eighteen ninety two and nineteen nineteen that we're in that viole. 588 00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:47,680 Speaker 2: The vertical strings on this loom, their color and how 589 00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:52,319 Speaker 2: they alternate with each other represent actual data about the 590 00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:56,560 Speaker 2: people who once lived at the asylum, their race, their gender. 591 00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:01,399 Speaker 4: Yeah, do so right over here, I reference these by 592 00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:06,520 Speaker 4: any reports of who die. And they separate all of. 593 00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:09,560 Speaker 7: This explains it it basically does. 594 00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:12,040 Speaker 13: They separated it by male. 595 00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:14,800 Speaker 7: And female and white and population of color. 596 00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:19,520 Speaker 13: Okay, so I separated it. And here like. 597 00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:25,319 Speaker 2: That, every single vertical thread represents four patients. A black 598 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:26,640 Speaker 2: thread signals a new year. 599 00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:30,080 Speaker 13: So every time you see the stripes change, there's two 600 00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:33,080 Speaker 13: colors for one year, and every time you see that rollover, 601 00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:34,080 Speaker 13: that's another year. 602 00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:38,000 Speaker 2: And as the number of patients that the asylum grows, 603 00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:42,839 Speaker 2: so do the stripes, widening from left to right. As 604 00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:45,920 Speaker 2: more and more people of color become patients at the asylum, 605 00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:50,960 Speaker 2: vertical green threads begin to outnumber gray. The facts the data. 606 00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:55,120 Speaker 2: Emily embedded these into the vertical pattern when she's set 607 00:37:55,200 --> 00:38:00,399 Speaker 2: up the loom, but the horizontal patterns those up. 608 00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:00,760 Speaker 5: To the weaver. 609 00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:04,919 Speaker 2: The colors they pick, how they pass the shuttle from 610 00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:09,000 Speaker 2: one hand to the other, whether they were nervous or 611 00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:14,480 Speaker 2: forceful or methodical, all informs what the final fabric will 612 00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:14,840 Speaker 2: look like. 613 00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:17,560 Speaker 13: So I've done the hard part of setting up the 614 00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:21,520 Speaker 13: warp and doing the calculations to make it a specific 615 00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:25,799 Speaker 13: type of weave. But the way the pattern is embedded, 616 00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:29,759 Speaker 13: people will be able to do all kinds of different patterns, 617 00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:35,280 Speaker 13: and by they can make it as plain or as. 618 00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:35,839 Speaker 4: Crazy or abstract as they want. 619 00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:37,680 Speaker 5: So hopefully. 620 00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:46,719 Speaker 13: Every time someone weaves, they'll be sort of connecting to 621 00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:52,840 Speaker 13: that past and will be sort of complicating those overly 622 00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:57,279 Speaker 13: simplified statistics in my mind. But I hope it'll mean 623 00:38:57,480 --> 00:38:58,400 Speaker 13: many different. 624 00:38:58,080 --> 00:38:59,040 Speaker 5: Things to many people. 625 00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:01,719 Speaker 13: I hope everyone will come and have an experience with it. 626 00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:06,280 Speaker 2: The weaving isn't just for the edification of the living. 627 00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:11,520 Speaker 2: After all, this cemetery, what's left of it it's never 628 00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:16,160 Speaker 2: really about us, And neither is this fabric that Emily 629 00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:20,200 Speaker 2: and others have brought into being, because this isn't just 630 00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:24,799 Speaker 2: a cloth or a throw that's being woven. It's a 631 00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:29,719 Speaker 2: burial shroud, much like the ones the patients themselves were 632 00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:33,320 Speaker 2: buried on, sometimes with too many safety pins. 633 00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:35,560 Speaker 16: Yeah, but I love the idea of being buried and 634 00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:37,959 Speaker 16: like getting returned to the earth, like returning to the mother. 635 00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:40,919 Speaker 16: You know, I just really love that he was talking 636 00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:42,759 Speaker 16: about shame and like how you have shame from an 637 00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:45,040 Speaker 16: unmarked grave and not knowing what happened to someone. But 638 00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:49,160 Speaker 16: like it's really kind of beautiful, like like we really 639 00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:50,719 Speaker 16: don't our graves don't last that long. 640 00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:54,480 Speaker 13: You know, a lot of comfort in knowing the ephemeral 641 00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:59,000 Speaker 13: like of my mistakes and otherwise. 642 00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:01,719 Speaker 5: But just you know, I just find that to. 643 00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:04,000 Speaker 4: Be comforting that I'm just this little part of a 644 00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:17,360 Speaker 4: bigger story, you know, a huge story. 645 00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:35,719 Speaker 2: Fifty million years ago, some bits of a mineral called 646 00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:41,080 Speaker 2: smectite got swept up, carried along on fast moving waters 647 00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:49,320 Speaker 2: flowing south. Eventually the water slowed and the minerals fell, 648 00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:58,720 Speaker 2: settling down forming layer upon layer of clay. Time passed 649 00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:05,520 Speaker 2: the sun rose, the rain fell, the rivers changed course. 650 00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:12,759 Speaker 2: A city got built on top of the clay. The 651 00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:17,880 Speaker 2: rain fell, the sun rose, the clay swelled and shrank, 652 00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:25,560 Speaker 2: and foundations got wrecked. At an asylum on a hill, 653 00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:31,800 Speaker 2: a cemetery was laid into this clay. At an asylum 654 00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:38,520 Speaker 2: on a hill, a cemetery was forgotten. Then, not all 655 00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:43,600 Speaker 2: too long ago, hands scooped up some of that fairy clay. 656 00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:45,120 Speaker 5: They added it to. 657 00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:49,560 Speaker 2: Water, and added yarn to the dark orange slurry. The 658 00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:54,640 Speaker 2: two sat there together for weeks, one staining the other. 659 00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:59,600 Speaker 2: Then that pair of hands pulled out the yarn, wrung 660 00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:02,040 Speaker 2: out most of the water and most of the clay. 661 00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:08,840 Speaker 2: At the end of it, all that yarn would be 662 00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:12,360 Speaker 2: wound around a spool and set on a loom. It 663 00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:16,680 Speaker 2: would become part of a fabric, one created by hundreds 664 00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:21,800 Speaker 2: of pairs of hands, intimately weaving the past into the present. 665 00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:32,120 Speaker 2: It's like I said at the beginning, Yazoo clay is 666 00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:36,600 Speaker 2: the bane of central Mississippi. It wreaks havoc on everything 667 00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:41,440 Speaker 2: from our homes to our graves to our memories. But 668 00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:46,880 Speaker 2: it's also the source of great beauty. Mississippians, after all, 669 00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:51,920 Speaker 2: grow deep roots. We kind of can't help it. Maybe 670 00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:54,560 Speaker 2: that's why we're so hung up on the dirt therein 671 00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:18,160 Speaker 2: under Yazoo. Clay is executive produced by the Mississippi Museum 672 00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:21,200 Speaker 2: of Art in partnership with pod People. It's hosted by 673 00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:24,640 Speaker 2: me Larison Campbell and written and produced by Rebecca Shasson 674 00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:27,760 Speaker 2: and myself with help from Angela Yee and Amy Machado, 675 00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:31,360 Speaker 2: with editing and sound design by Morgan Fuz and Erica Wong, 676 00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:35,000 Speaker 2: and thanks to Blue Dot Sessions for music. Special thanks 677 00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:37,879 Speaker 2: to Betsy Bradley at the Mississippi Museum of Art, as 678 00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:40,400 Speaker 2: well as Leida Gibson at the Center for Bioethics and 679 00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:44,080 Speaker 2: Medical Humanities at the University of Mississippi Medical Center. Visit 680 00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:46,160 Speaker 2: Jackson and Jay and Deny Stein.