Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your guide to
Speaker 1: the whitetail woods presented by First Light, creating proven versatile
Speaker 1: hunting apparel for the stand, saddle or blind. First Light
Speaker 1: Go Farther, Stay Longer, and now your host, Mark Kenyon.
Speaker 2: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. This week on
Speaker 2: the show, we are discussing how to make a living
Speaker 2: in a conservation related field, as well as advice for
Speaker 2: how to be a more effective volunteer, conservationist and advocate.
Speaker 2: I'm joined by Chris Bergotti from back Country Hunters and
Speaker 2: Anglers and Matt Ross of the National Dear Association. All Right,
Speaker 2: welcome back to another episode of the Wire to Hunt podcast,
Speaker 2: brought to you by First Light and their Camel for
Speaker 2: Conservation initiative, which is quite relevant to our discussion today
Speaker 2: because Camel for Conservation is a that benefits the National
Speaker 2: Deer Association. Every purchase of first Light's spector cameo pattern,
Speaker 2: so it could be their source jacket, it could be
Speaker 2: one of their base layers, could be a hat, whatever
Speaker 2: it is inspector portion of that sale. The proceeds go
Speaker 2: to the National Deer Association and a member and a
Speaker 2: staff member over at the NBA is with us today
Speaker 2: as well as another person from another great conservation organization, BHA.
Speaker 2: They're with me today to discuss two different ways that
Speaker 2: you can work for wildlife, two different ways that you
Speaker 2: can give back to the natural world and the resources
Speaker 2: that we as hunters and anglers and outdoors people, you know,
Speaker 2: that we enjoy so much. It's Earth Week, right, Monday
Speaker 2: was Earth Day, So I know a lot of people
Speaker 2: are taking a little extra time this week just to
Speaker 2: think about how can we give back to Planet Earth.
Speaker 2: How do we take care of these resources that you know,
Speaker 2: we enjoy so much, And so it seemed like now
Speaker 2: would be a good time for us to do that too.
Speaker 2: So the plan, as I alluded to in the introduction,
Speaker 2: is to talk through these two different things.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: Number one, what if you want to make a living
Speaker 2: in this world, how can you go about being a
Speaker 2: professional conservationist? This is a question I get quite a lot.
Speaker 2: People are curious, you know, how do I get into
Speaker 2: this line of work? How can I get a job
Speaker 2: where I'm in some way giving back in some way
Speaker 2: doing something good for the environment, for wildlife or hunting
Speaker 2: and fishing. It's a tough question to answer in a
Speaker 2: quick email or an Instagram message. So I'm glad that
Speaker 2: we finally found a way to do this in a
Speaker 2: long form kind of format. So we're going to discuss
Speaker 2: the pros and cons of working professionally in conservation. We're
Speaker 2: going to hear from our two guests and hear about
Speaker 2: their own personal stories and how they landed the jobs
Speaker 2: they're in, and the winding path they took throughout their careers.
Speaker 2: We'll talk about I think I mentioned pros and cons,
Speaker 2: but we will talk about the drawbacks and some of
Speaker 2: the considerations that you need to think about if you
Speaker 2: decide to pursue this line of work. And then we
Speaker 2: also talk about like how to get a job like this,
Speaker 2: Like what are the most important things to do? What
Speaker 2: are the ways to open up opportunities that you might
Speaker 2: be able to make a living doing good things for
Speaker 2: wildlife and wild places. So that's part one of this chat,
Speaker 2: and then part two of the chat is, Hey, what
Speaker 2: if I don't want to change my job. What if
Speaker 2: you want to keep on doing whatever it is with
Speaker 2: your career, but you still want to find a way
Speaker 2: to be a more effective conservationist in your free time?
Speaker 2: How could you do that? What kind of things can
Speaker 2: make you a more effective advocate, What kinds of things
Speaker 2: can help you make more of a positive difference on
Speaker 2: your nights or weekends, spare time here and there, That
Speaker 2: and much much more is what we chat about today
Speaker 2: with my guests Chris Borgatti, who is the Eastern Policy
Speaker 2: and Conservation manager for Backcountry Hunters and Anglers, and Matt Ross,
Speaker 2: the director of Conservation for the National Dear Association.
Speaker 3: And we already recorded the chat, so.
Speaker 2: I'm coming off of that right now, and I'm gonna
Speaker 2: give you a teaser, I guess, and tell you that
Speaker 2: I came out of this one energized, rejuvenated, pumped up,
Speaker 2: and excited to keep doing this kind of work and
Speaker 2: to try to do even more of it. You'll hear from
Speaker 2: all three of us here that this kind of pursuit,
Speaker 2: whether you do it professionally or you know, as a
Speaker 2: side things, as a volunteer, you know, just part of
Speaker 2: your weekends or nights or whatever it is, doing this
Speaker 2: kind of thing fills the cup.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of things in life that drain you, right.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of things that can wear you down.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of things that can take the energy
Speaker 2: out of you. Take that kind of suck your soul, right.
Speaker 2: I think all of us have done things like that
Speaker 2: and giving back to the natural world, especially if you
Speaker 2: can be out there and enjoying it at the same time. Man,
Speaker 2: that just builds you. It just brings so much light
Speaker 2: and energy back into your life. So I can't recommend
Speaker 2: it enough, and I hope you enjoy this chat as
Speaker 2: much as I did. It's Earth Week.
Speaker 3: Let's celebrate it. Man.
Speaker 2: We are the luckiest folks in the world. The fact
Speaker 2: that we have so much open space still here in
Speaker 2: North America, the fact that we can still hunt, the
Speaker 2: fact that we can still fish, that there's clean water,
Speaker 2: that there's clean air, that they're pretty abundant wild species
Speaker 2: across big parts of this country still like that is
Speaker 2: not the case everywhere. That was not always the case here.
Speaker 2: We've had some ups and downs in the history of America,
Speaker 2: and we got to make sure that we keep it
Speaker 2: going up and do not let it slide down, because
Speaker 2: this is just too damn important. It's too good. The
Speaker 2: things that we can go and share with our kids,
Speaker 2: the things that our grandkids could experience someday, the things
Speaker 2: that you and I could take off this weekend and
Speaker 2: see firsthand is stuff out of a fairy tale For
Speaker 2: some people in different parts of the country. These are
Speaker 2: things that you know, we're living the dream in many ways,
Speaker 2: and I try to pinch myself and remind myself of
Speaker 2: that as often as possible. We can't take it for granted.
Speaker 2: We got to take care of this beautiful planet and
Speaker 2: the wild creatures that live on it, because man, they
Speaker 2: have given us so so much.
Speaker 3: So with all that said, I.
Speaker 2: Hope you guys enjoyed this one. I'm excited. Let's get
Speaker 2: to work. Here we go, all right, joining me now
Speaker 2: on the show. I've got two great guys, great conservationists,
Speaker 2: and I think perfect guests for our topic today, Matt
Speaker 2: Ross and Chris Borgotti. Thank you, gentlemen for being here.
Speaker 3: Great to be here.
Speaker 4: Likewise, Yeah, appreciate it. Mark.
Speaker 2: I know you're both busy. I know you're both jet
Speaker 2: setting from place to place it seems like all the time,
Speaker 2: so you know, making time to have this kind of conversation,
Speaker 2: especially Chris, I know you're at a hotel room right
Speaker 2: now in the middle of a convention. Not easy to do,
Speaker 2: so I want to be respectful of your time time
Speaker 2: and just jump right into the meat of our topic
Speaker 2: today in this week, which is working for wildlife. And
Speaker 2: I mean that in a slightly larger more holistic way
Speaker 2: than maybe I've talked in using that term in the past,
Speaker 2: because you know, anyone listening and you guys too, both
Speaker 2: know about the Working for Wildlife tour. But I want
Speaker 2: to talk a little bit about what it means to
Speaker 2: work for wildlife just on a day to day basis
Speaker 2: in their own individual lives. I think there's probably two
Speaker 2: ways people could go about doing this. There's one way,
Speaker 2: which is, you know, being a volunteer, being an advocate,
Speaker 2: finding different ways in your own personal life, in your
Speaker 2: kind of side time, your extra time to in some
Speaker 2: way help out wildlife or wild places or a species
Speaker 2: that you particularly care about, public land, whatever it is.
Speaker 2: But then, one thing we've not really talked much about
Speaker 2: on this show, but I think a lot of people
Speaker 2: are curious about, is how to do that professionally, which
Speaker 2: is something both of you guys do you have found
Speaker 2: a way to make a living doing good things for
Speaker 2: the natural world. Raise your hand, Well, that's not a
Speaker 2: good way. I was gonna tell you to raise your
Speaker 2: hands but people listening would not be able to see
Speaker 2: that there are some people watching. But I was going
Speaker 2: to ask you, you know, do either one of you get
Speaker 2: emails the way I do about people asking like how
Speaker 2: do I get into constant conservation work professionally? Are there
Speaker 2: jobs like that? How could I make a living do
Speaker 2: this kind of thing? How did you get into it?
Speaker 2: I got to believe you two have got those types
Speaker 2: of requests too.
Speaker 5: Right, Yeah, absolutely, I mean I get a decent amount
Speaker 5: of them. I'm sure Christo's as well. And I'd say
Speaker 5: there's more that are coming from people that are in
Speaker 5: a career already that are thinking about kind of reverting.
Speaker 5: But I get a fair amount of students that reply
Speaker 5: or not just me to our organization of how do
Speaker 5: you know how do I get a job with you?
Speaker 5: Guys that you know that they're in school. But I'd
Speaker 5: say the line share is coming from a person that
Speaker 5: is maybe younger, but in a career and wanting to
Speaker 5: want to change a career path.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what about you, Chris?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 6: For me, it's I would say mostly people who've already
Speaker 6: who are already an established career. I think in part
Speaker 6: they're interested because that's sort of what I did, but
Speaker 6: also people kind of transitioning naturally. I've had Actually, when
Speaker 6: I was at Rondezvous this past week, I had a
Speaker 6: number of individuals who were coming out of military service
Speaker 6: asking me about, you know, how do you get involved
Speaker 6: in conservation professionally? Actually, though, yesterday at this conference, I
Speaker 6: had a luncheon with current graduate students and I was
Speaker 6: honestly quite surprised given that a lot of the people
Speaker 6: at this conference were professional science professionals working agencies and
Speaker 6: things like that. But several people, several of the students
Speaker 6: asked me about working in an NGO and what that's like,
Speaker 6: and and uh, you know, public or like a federal
Speaker 6: or state agency versus a nonprofit. So there's definitely you know,
Speaker 6: there's definitely people who are interested.
Speaker 2: When you get that question, Chris, and they're they're kind
Speaker 2: of curious about it. Do you encourage them or do
Speaker 2: you warn them off?
Speaker 3: Uh? I don't. I'm honest.
Speaker 6: I'm very honest with the pros and the cons and
Speaker 6: and one of the things questions I kind of put
Speaker 6: back onto them is you know.
Speaker 3: What what are you looking for?
Speaker 6: And what is the balance of things that you value
Speaker 6: in terms of work? Life, personal life is it? Are
Speaker 6: you a passionate outdoors person who thinks this is going
Speaker 6: to allow you to hunt more?
Speaker 3: Uh?
Speaker 6: You know, with questions like that, and I think and
Speaker 6: their responses, I can kind of give them a little
Speaker 6: bit more tailored response. And but again I'm pretty honest
Speaker 6: about it. It's not always glamorous. It's it can it
Speaker 6: can be a grind, just like any job.
Speaker 5: There's but there, you know, there are different buckets, as
Speaker 5: you're kind of alluding to, Mark. You know, there is
Speaker 5: the nonprofit or NGO world, which we both work in,
Speaker 5: Chris and I.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 5: There is agency work, state or federal. There's there's the
Speaker 5: private sector, you know, private consulting. There's advocacy work and
Speaker 5: advocacy groups. Uh, there's resource managers, which kind of like
Speaker 5: overlaps a different of the you know, different categories, and
Speaker 5: it does really you know, they all have benefits and
Speaker 5: drawbacks and I find a lot of joy I really
Speaker 5: thought I was going one direction early in my career,
Speaker 5: more to like an agency person.
Speaker 4: Uh, and I did.
Speaker 5: I worked at you know, seasonal work for a state
Speaker 5: agency for in wildlife, but I ended up in the
Speaker 5: nonprofit world. Uh. And I wouldn't have expected that early
Speaker 5: in my career. But I'm really I've been here a
Speaker 5: long time. I'm really pleased with it. And I think
Speaker 5: one of the things that we both do our organizations,
Speaker 5: our parent organizations is strong on grassroots, you know, community
Speaker 5: based work, and it's all and we also do strong
Speaker 5: educational campaigns and then there's all those other categories that
Speaker 5: fall under it. And so it's just it's working with people.
Speaker 5: And if you were a private in the private sector,
Speaker 5: you're you're working with the resource and your outdoors a lot.
Speaker 5: If you're with agencies, you're also managing the resource or
Speaker 5: populations and you work for the people. But it can
Speaker 5: be a very adversarial kind of relationship with people. Sometimes
Speaker 5: it's unfortunate. But we have the great fortune of being
Speaker 5: looked as we say the same message as all those
Speaker 5: other people and those groups we're right in step with,
Speaker 5: you know, ecological health and you know population balance and
Speaker 5: and and habitat and all of the things that we
Speaker 5: all talk about. But for whatever reason, the people in
Speaker 5: NGOs tend to be held a little bit higher on
Speaker 5: a pedestal from a trust factor, and you know, almost
Speaker 5: like a heroic type thing, which I don't know. Maybe
Speaker 5: it's my ego and that's why I've been here for
Speaker 5: nearly twenty years. But yeah, I mean there are those
Speaker 5: different categories, but there's drawbacks too, as Chris said, and
Speaker 5: I don't know if your podcast wants to be about
Speaker 5: that today, what are all the drawbacks? But there are
Speaker 5: these different buckets that you can work in and they
Speaker 5: all have really there's there's a benefit to it to
Speaker 5: the person, but they also have a purpose for you know,
Speaker 5: each of those jobs can really mean a lot for
Speaker 5: the resource.
Speaker 4: If you like being alone.
Speaker 5: Outside a lot, you don't like working with people, you
Speaker 5: might go one path, you know.
Speaker 4: So that's that's what I think about it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I do want to get into some of those
Speaker 2: pros and cons and different you know, recommended paths based
Speaker 2: on what you're trying to get out of it. But
Speaker 2: maybe the best way to get into that would just
Speaker 2: be to look at your own personal examples of how
Speaker 2: you picked your path and where it took you, at
Speaker 2: least as a starting point. You could you maybe kick
Speaker 2: it off, Matt with with what your journey looked like.
Speaker 2: I mean, did you know from the time you were
Speaker 2: in high school that this is what you wanted to do,
Speaker 2: or if not, how did this whole thing get kicked off?
Speaker 2: Then how did you get to where you are now?
Speaker 5: I did know from a very early age that I
Speaker 5: wanted to work in an outdoor sector, specifically deer, and
Speaker 5: you know, I work for the National Deer Association. So
Speaker 5: when I look back at my journey, I'm very proud
Speaker 5: of myself, which is a good thing for anybody to feel.
Speaker 5: But that was because I grew up in a family
Speaker 5: that deer hunted, and I belonged to like a sports
Speaker 5: you know, rotten gun club with my dad and uncles
Speaker 5: and was around that, and so from high school, you know,
Speaker 5: later in high school, I was really interested in how
Speaker 5: I could make that happen. And one of my relatives
Speaker 5: was friends with somebody that worked for the our state
Speaker 5: Wildlife Agency. And I live in the state New York
Speaker 5: up kind of in the hills of the Adirondecks, and
Speaker 5: one of the wildlife biologists, regional biologists, was friends with
Speaker 5: my uncle, and so I talked to him about what
Speaker 5: I would need to do to kind of work with deer,
Speaker 5: and that set me off on a path of looking
Speaker 5: at schools that had degrees in wildlife and I went
Speaker 5: to college in Massachusetts Chris for wildlife biology, got a degree,
Speaker 5: and then I actually for a bachelor's and went back
Speaker 5: home and started working as a seasonal wildlife technician for
Speaker 5: three or four years doing game and non game work.
Speaker 5: I did some pretty cool stuff work with peregrin falcons
Speaker 5: and owls, and a lot of deer work and habitat work,
Speaker 5: and then decided I need to go back to grad school.
Speaker 5: Just from the path that I was thinking, I was
Speaker 5: going to go into a role that needed a master's
Speaker 5: degree and got my masters in wildlife again, the whole
Speaker 5: time thinking I was going to work and not go
Speaker 5: to get a PhD, but work in some resource manager's role.
Speaker 5: Got a master's working with deer in New Hampshire, which
Speaker 5: was an awesome experience. And before I was even done
Speaker 5: with school, I got a job working for a private
Speaker 5: wildlife and forestry consulting company in New England and that
Speaker 5: was amazing. I really I missed parts of that job.
Speaker 4: Honestly. On a day to day.
Speaker 5: I would go out just I worked for a guy
Speaker 5: that owned the company and there was a small crew
Speaker 5: of us, but on a day to day it was
Speaker 5: just me and my chocolate lab in my pickup truck.
Speaker 5: You know, a guy in his twenties mark and timber,
Speaker 5: putting paint entrees, work, talking to loggers, talking to landowners,
Speaker 5: making prescriptions of what to do. So I was out
Speaker 5: there managing habitat for several years, got my license in forestry,
Speaker 5: and I was introduced to the NGO world as a
Speaker 5: volunteer as a member. So, and you know, I knew
Speaker 5: about several of the groups from a deer side, though
Speaker 5: I didn't know there was a deer group out there,
Speaker 5: you know, being a Northeasterner. There are some other deer
Speaker 5: groups that I think have been around as long or
Speaker 5: longer than NDA in the Midwest, but I just didn't
Speaker 5: know of them. And so at the time our organization
Speaker 5: was growing. Quality Deer Management Association was the name back then,
Speaker 5: and I joined when I was my last year in
Speaker 5: grad school. Became a member, started getting the magazine, started
Speaker 5: a local chapter we call them branches. I was an officer,
Speaker 5: so I did the volunteer thing, still do. Actually we
Speaker 5: have a local group, and eventually I saw a lot
Speaker 5: of value. And I can get into this deeper if
Speaker 5: you're interested. But I saw a lot of value in
Speaker 5: the NGO side and applied for a job and got
Speaker 5: it in two thousand and six. So I had done
Speaker 5: the net the outside, you know, working on habitat for
Speaker 5: six years, and then got a job with then QDMA.
Speaker 5: And it's been coming up eighteen years the spring that
Speaker 5: I and I've served in various roles, worked with our
Speaker 5: volunteers in the Northeast.
Speaker 4: That was my job.
Speaker 5: Initially, I was a regional director and then moved into
Speaker 5: our conservation department. I ran our conservation services and training
Speaker 5: program called dear Steward and developed a program for land
Speaker 5: certification and anyway, you know here I am all these
Speaker 5: years later, but so that that's my journey in a
Speaker 5: five minute snippet.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I feel like you've got like the kind
Speaker 2: of the more traditional path I think, in which you
Speaker 2: knew from an early age, you got an education, specifically
Speaker 2: wildlife based, you went and became a practitioner on the ground,
Speaker 2: and then have moved into like a more managerial role
Speaker 2: of sorts. I guess maybe manager might be the wrong word,
Speaker 2: but but you know, I see something different with Chris
Speaker 2: from what I know about Chris's background. Can you tell
Speaker 2: us about your path to this point.
Speaker 3: Chris, Sure, mine is very different.
Speaker 6: So I yeah, I was in college as a double
Speaker 6: major environmental science and geography. I sort of thought I
Speaker 6: would be going into sort of the environmental field in
Speaker 6: some way, and that's what I did. I started my
Speaker 6: career as a environmental engineer and was doing all sorts
Speaker 6: of projects for large wastewater type of projects for large
Speaker 6: basically most of our clients were large corporations, and doing
Speaker 6: that work, you know, it was it was really good
Speaker 6: in terms of the paycheck, but I found that my
Speaker 6: clients were oftentimes not necessarily sharing the same values I
Speaker 6: had in terms of the environment, and they were just
Speaker 6: basically trying to be compliant. And so I kind of
Speaker 6: had this man, I just I wasn't sure that this
Speaker 6: was the place for me. And to be honest, I
Speaker 6: took that job because of the paycheck, and I kind
Speaker 6: of figured that that is what I'm supposed to do.
Speaker 6: You know, I've been you know, I've done great in school,
Speaker 6: have done great in sports, Like this is like you're
Speaker 6: supposed to achieve and this is sort of a value.
Speaker 6: And it just occurred to me that no, like I
Speaker 6: have to have a better impact on the world around me,
Speaker 6: and so I stepped away from that became a trout
Speaker 6: bum for a short period of time. I'd like to
Speaker 6: like to say that I'm completely recovered. If anybody completely recovers, Yeah, well,
Speaker 6: I've mostly been able to satisfy that by checking flies
Speaker 6: at saltwater fish a lot. But anyways, before graduate school,
Speaker 6: someone I was planning on applying to graduate school. There
Speaker 6: may have been a little bit of an intervention there
Speaker 6: to kind of encouraged me along the way. And I
Speaker 6: was going to get there, but you know, I had
Speaker 6: money in the bank and fish to catch, so I
Speaker 6: I basically someone suggested, Hey, you should go teach at
Speaker 6: a at an urban school, and you know, teach a
Speaker 6: year before graduate school make a difference. And I thought
Speaker 6: that sounded like actually a good idea. And you know,
Speaker 6: back in those days there's actual newspapers when employment sections
Speaker 6: and opened up. The newspaper found a science teaching job
Speaker 6: in Boston, called it up and the principal answered the
Speaker 6: phone and said, you know, very sorry, the position has
Speaker 6: been filled. And I asked her if we could do
Speaker 6: an informational interview because I didn't know anything about schools,
Speaker 6: didn't know anything about teaching she agreed. I came in
Speaker 6: and we hit it off right away. I was asking
Speaker 6: her about her students and the community and the curriculum,
Speaker 6: and she just stopped mid sentence and said, hey, if
Speaker 6: I can, if I could offer you this job, or
Speaker 6: you take it. And I thought to myself, well, yeah sure,
Speaker 6: and she said, excuse me. She got up went into
Speaker 6: her secretary's office. I overheard a conversation and the person
Speaker 6: on the outer line she was talking to she said,
Speaker 6: I think I've made a mistake or I've made a mistake.
Speaker 6: The position's no longer available. And that is when I
Speaker 6: became a teacher. And that was a nearly two decade
Speaker 6: period of time I was a teacher in that time.
Speaker 6: I worked at that school for a couple of years,
Speaker 6: went to graduate school at Boston College, and found my
Speaker 6: way out of prep school north of Boston, and worked
Speaker 6: there for about seventeen years. And it was actually a
Speaker 6: student's question in my class, one of my environmental science
Speaker 6: class classes.
Speaker 3: He asked if we.
Speaker 6: Could talk about hunting and an upcoming unit on food
Speaker 6: and food systems and food and food systems, a topic
Speaker 6: that I worked on as an undergrad and I was
Speaker 6: sort of saving it from when I was going to
Speaker 6: return after paternity leave. It was right before I went
Speaker 6: on leave, and I told him, hey, you know, I
Speaker 6: don't know very much about hunting. I do some research
Speaker 6: and I will incorporate it when I get back. And
Speaker 6: I picked up a number of books and you know,
Speaker 6: started doing some research in that little, you know night
Speaker 6: when I'm taking care of the baby and all that
Speaker 6: kind of thing. And it wasn't long before I came
Speaker 6: to the question, why am I not doing this? Why
Speaker 6: am I not hunting. I've been fishing my entire life.
Speaker 6: I'm in the outdoors and in all these places. I'm
Speaker 6: concerned about where my food comes from. And without having
Speaker 6: any people in my family that really hunts other than
Speaker 6: a younger cousin, I called them up. I said, I'm
Speaker 6: taking hunter safety and then to come down to Virginia
Speaker 6: and you're gonna teach me what you know.
Speaker 3: And that's where it started.
Speaker 6: And you know, in that process, I discovered backcountry hunters
Speaker 6: and anglers and got attended a couple events. Next thing
Speaker 6: I know, I'm helping out with the Massachusetts State Leadership team.
Speaker 6: And then a year or two after that, I joined
Speaker 6: the New England Board became increasingly involved in policy and
Speaker 6: and that kind of work, and with some really rapid
Speaker 6: growth in the chapter HQ, I need to get a
Speaker 6: full time staffer in the Northeast, the chapter coordinator. This
Speaker 6: is around the period of COVID when teaching was not
Speaker 6: exactly a great time when you're remote and all that
Speaker 6: kind of stuff, And I just thought, you know what,
Speaker 6: I'm passionate about this. I want to continue to make
Speaker 6: a difference. This satisfies that, and applied and was offered
Speaker 6: the job. And I've been doing that for a couple
Speaker 6: of years now, and this a few months ago. I
Speaker 6: was promoted to Eastern Policy Manager and so a little
Speaker 6: shift in my day to day.
Speaker 3: But yeah, that's the quick version of how I ended
Speaker 3: up here.
Speaker 5: That's awesome, Chris, super courageous, and I find like depths
Speaker 5: of inspiration here in stories like yours. I mean, really
Speaker 5: just kind of amazing. And there's more folks out there
Speaker 5: just like you, and they should take that leap.
Speaker 4: I mean, that is awesome.
Speaker 6: Yeah, And to be honest, I had a lot of
Speaker 6: people not just asking me about making a you know,
Speaker 6: mid I guess I'm in mid life, so they tell me.
Speaker 6: I still feel still feel pretty pretty young. A lot
Speaker 6: of people outside the conservation space, just former colleagues of mine,
Speaker 6: friends of mine, when they heard of me making a
Speaker 6: pretty dramatic change career wise, they wanted to talk about it.
Speaker 6: They wanted to know how like the courage to do it,
Speaker 6: and of course, like I had support, I had support
Speaker 6: from my wife, I had you know, I was fortunate
Speaker 6: to be in a position where I could take that leap.
Speaker 6: And yeah, and to be honest, I'm really glad I did.
Speaker 2: Uh talk to me a little bit about your decision
Speaker 2: making process and motivations other than like you felt drawn
Speaker 2: to do it. But I got to believe your old
Speaker 2: job had a steady, very reliable paycheck. You had history there.
Speaker 2: You you know, you knew what you had been doing,
Speaker 2: you knew what it was gonna look like moving forward.
Speaker 2: You worked at a very you know, really nice prep school,
Speaker 2: seemed you know, kind of glamorous within that world maybe
Speaker 2: a little bit. And now you're gonna take off work
Speaker 2: for an upstart conservation organization. I don't know for sure,
Speaker 2: but just from what I know about NNGO is usually
Speaker 2: it's less pay. Uh you know, why why would someone
Speaker 2: do that?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 6: Uh? I get that, get that question a lot, and yeah,
Speaker 6: it in terms of if you had asked me five
Speaker 6: years ago, would I be doing working conservation, I'd say no.
Speaker 6: I totally planned on retiring as an educator at this school.
Speaker 6: I could not have worked at a better school. It
Speaker 6: was phenomenal, you know, as someone who's coming from a
Speaker 6: science background. They allowed me to continue to do professional development,
Speaker 6: to go to graduate school, to take courses, and I
Speaker 6: was able to do climate change research in the art Arctic.
Speaker 6: I was tagging sharks in Monterey, California. Like those were
Speaker 6: my professional development experiences. It was a great place to be.
Speaker 6: But you know, I just, you know, after sort of
Speaker 6: immersing myself in them in this space, I recognized that
Speaker 6: that I could make an impact and I had this,
Speaker 6: I had this opportunity to do it, and you know,
Speaker 6: in life, you don't get many of those opportunities.
Speaker 3: So Yeah, while there was certainly a little.
Speaker 6: Bit of a decrease in benefits for sure, you know, salary,
Speaker 6: the fact that I could have had my boys go
Speaker 6: to that school tuition free, things of that nature, I
Speaker 6: just I just felt like this was something that I
Speaker 6: that I wanted to do and.
Speaker 3: It was sort of like a fresh fresh start.
Speaker 6: And and like I said in the beginning, when I
Speaker 6: had that initial career change, like it was really when
Speaker 6: I came to that realization that I couldn't just do
Speaker 6: a job, that I had to be able to have
Speaker 6: an impact on the world around me and the things
Speaker 6: that are important to me. You know, that was something
Speaker 6: that I really reflected upon. And yeah, and that was
Speaker 6: always something when my students would always ask me at
Speaker 6: the last you know, especially my seniors.
Speaker 3: My seniors would ask.
Speaker 6: Me about you know, the the the you know, any
Speaker 6: parting words or advice, and I was I always told them, like,
Speaker 6: I blow them off, and like, I'm not.
Speaker 3: Giving you guys advice. Do you guys can figure it out.
Speaker 3: That's part of life.
Speaker 6: But one of I really got pinned down one time
Speaker 6: by some students and I'm like, all right, I'll give
Speaker 6: you a couple And one of those things was to
Speaker 6: to to take a career where you can make a
Speaker 6: positive impact. And so many of my students were really
Speaker 6: interested in what I was interested in graduating college, which
Speaker 6: was you know, having making that you know, having that
Speaker 6: big career and and all that kind of stuff. So yeah,
Speaker 6: it was an opportunity to do that. It was an
Speaker 6: opportunity to continue to have an impact. And yeah, so,
Speaker 6: like I said, I took the jump.
Speaker 5: I think that I think that job satisfaction thing is
Speaker 5: a huge part of well, I mean, it's starting at
Speaker 5: the volunteer level all the way up to like careers
Speaker 5: like you're talking about, Chris and Mark wants us to
Speaker 5: kind of dive into is. I mean, I think one
Speaker 5: of the reasons I've stuck with it for so long
Speaker 5: is I do feel like I make a difference and
Speaker 5: I can see it. It's tangible, and uh, no matter
Speaker 5: what level you're working on, I've always kind of tried
Speaker 5: to elevate that. Each time I've had a promotion or
Speaker 5: a decision to jump into a career like I did,
Speaker 5: the same thing trickles down all the way down to
Speaker 5: the volunteer because they feel like they're making a difference
Speaker 5: than they are. And one of the things I think
Speaker 5: I heard this actually on one of the trivia meat
Speaker 5: Eater trivia's is the highest job satisfaction out there is
Speaker 5: like foresters, you know, they feel like they make a
Speaker 5: difference because they're outdoors. It's obviously a little stress doing
Speaker 5: that you're just hanging out with trees, but you can
Speaker 5: see change. You can see it. It's tangible, and that
Speaker 5: relates to any job.
Speaker 4: And if you're.
Speaker 5: Dissatisfied with work, it's really hard to justify that paycheck.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So one of the upsides then of making your career
Speaker 2: revolving some way around conservation is that there's this real
Speaker 2: sense of satisfaction and fulfillment and purpose. And I would
Speaker 2: say that's something that I felt in my work on
Speaker 2: What are some of the other things on the positive
Speaker 2: side of the career choices you've made that are worth highlighting?
Speaker 2: Anything else other than other than impact in the way
Speaker 2: you've discussed it, Is there anything else like when you
Speaker 2: look back in your career choice that you're like, man,
Speaker 2: this is this definitely goes in the pro's column that
Speaker 2: someone listening maybe hasn't thought about.
Speaker 5: Man, There's so many things that fall under make a difference.
Speaker 5: You know, they're all like subcategories.
Speaker 4: I feel like.
Speaker 5: Being able to work in a community that is like
Speaker 5: minded is a positive. You know, you get you get
Speaker 5: energy from like minded souls, people that work for the
Speaker 5: organization that I'm employed by, but others that that is
Speaker 5: a huge positive it's like a daily dose of adrenaline,
Speaker 5: you know, to feel that motivation. You know, from a
Speaker 5: deer hunting deer management things have changed. I'm in my
Speaker 5: later forties. It's a pretty different world out there, in
Speaker 5: good and bad. You know, there's some from at a
Speaker 5: population level, and that's one of the things I really
Speaker 5: enjoy about my job is working at a national level,
Speaker 5: running national conservation programs and seeing change changes in the
Speaker 5: actual population of hunters. How that's changing, good and bad.
Speaker 5: You know, we're losing hunters, but seeing a different demographic
Speaker 5: pick it up, seeing deer heard health change. But then
Speaker 5: there's the negative to the CWD issue that we all
Speaker 5: know about. And so I feel like one of the
Speaker 5: things that I have high again job satisfaction is is
Speaker 5: I'm in the mix. You know, the company I work
Speaker 5: for is in the mix, and I'm right there at
Speaker 5: the table about talking about those at a national scale.
Speaker 5: And if I worked for myself or worked in the
Speaker 5: private sector, I'd be in a couple counties. Or if
Speaker 5: I work for state agency and I was the state's
Speaker 5: deer biologists, i would work at a state level. But
Speaker 5: I really like talking about things at a national, national scope.
Speaker 5: So that's one thing that comes to mind too from
Speaker 5: a positive.
Speaker 3: What about you, Chris, Yeah, I would agree with matt
Speaker 3: first point. I think one of the most.
Speaker 6: One of the best parts of it are working with
Speaker 6: the people like our grassroots chapter level, our chapters, our
Speaker 6: chapter leaders, just our members who are active. It is
Speaker 6: such an awesome community and there are so many talented
Speaker 6: people that give so much of their time and resources
Speaker 6: to to get us to a point where we have
Speaker 6: more opportunity, where we have more access. And so that
Speaker 6: community aspect I think is really important and it makes
Speaker 6: my job now as as a policy person to be
Speaker 6: able to tap into that that advocate network of people
Speaker 6: from around the country. And you know when when you're
Speaker 6: in you know, in some grinding political battles, maybe some
Speaker 6: legislation that that is very you know, it's just if
Speaker 6: you're dealing with some really tough rhetoric around from animal
Speaker 6: rights group and it's just yeah, it's a battle.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 6: Having just come from our rendezvous, it was such a
Speaker 6: big pick.
Speaker 3: Me up, you know, just to be around that those people.
Speaker 3: The enthusiasm, the energy.
Speaker 6: The commitment to make a difference that I think is
Speaker 6: it's probably the greatest positive because you know, I think
Speaker 6: Matt is as well, like we're we are. We're remote
Speaker 6: workers most of the time, and our office is in Missoula, Montana,
Speaker 6: but I'm the time sitting in my office in Massachusetts.
Speaker 6: So when you are able to connect with not just
Speaker 6: your colleagues, but the people your membership, I think that
Speaker 6: that's one of the one of the best best parts.
Speaker 5: I'll add to that mark before you shift to probably
Speaker 5: the negatives is one thing that I was thinking about,
Speaker 5: and I mentioned this earlier, you know, being viewed differently
Speaker 5: from the outside. The NGO community is viewed differently, almost
Speaker 5: like heroic, right, as I said, And that's probably silly
Speaker 5: to say. But we in our field of where Chris
Speaker 5: and I we connect a couple things. We are all
Speaker 5: science based, right, we are involved in policy. All the
Speaker 5: NGOs advocate for good things that are happening and oppose
Speaker 5: things that are bad. But we take that responsibility the
Speaker 5: NGO world. And I'm just talking from first person. I mean,
Speaker 5: I only worked for a few years in an agency setting,
Speaker 5: and I'm sure I would find a lot of positives
Speaker 5: if I had done that for seventeen or eighteen years.
Speaker 5: But one thing I really enjoy is being the conduit
Speaker 5: of information, the educator, the driver of motivation, not just me,
Speaker 5: but like the people that are that are in our
Speaker 5: field Chris and mis field. Is taking and packaging things
Speaker 5: that are hard to either read because it's deep in science,
Speaker 5: you know, scientific literature, and turning it into more of
Speaker 5: a layman's term so that people can understand it, or
Speaker 5: from a policy end, telling people how to act, not
Speaker 5: in the truest sense, but give them the package and
Speaker 5: say this is why this is bad or this is
Speaker 5: why this is good, and try to motivate them to
Speaker 5: act on that. That is also that responsibility in the
Speaker 5: role that NGOs serve is also deeply satisfying because that
Speaker 5: is the making the difference. It's not only making the difference,
Speaker 5: but it's also the community aspect that we talked about.
Speaker 5: Where you're marrying those two. You have a community that
Speaker 5: trusts you and listens, and you can get them to
Speaker 5: take good action to make a difference for whatever species
Speaker 5: you're you're you know, concentrating on For us, it's deer,
Speaker 5: and there are other groups that you know, focus on
Speaker 5: turkeys and ducks and others. Or if it's just public
Speaker 5: land management or you know, whatever the umbrella is that
Speaker 5: the organization oversees, you funnel that energy and you can
Speaker 5: point it like a bow or a gun towards the
Speaker 5: bad and motivate people to take take action. Which that
Speaker 5: is one of the things I love about sitting at
Speaker 5: this desk every day, honestly, is I do work from
Speaker 5: the field, but sitting down there are there's a lot
Speaker 5: of pleasure in knowing that that difference is going to
Speaker 5: happen because that responsibility is on us.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 6: Yeah, And I would add that we occupy like a
Speaker 6: really we're really lucky that we occupy in a kind
Speaker 6: of a unique niche in the greater sort of hunting
Speaker 6: and fishing space. Like we're we're kind of like industry adjacent, right,
Speaker 6: We're not.
Speaker 3: We're not necessarily.
Speaker 6: Part of the industry where we're not necessarily part of
Speaker 6: the agencies, the state or federal agencies.
Speaker 3: So what we have the great.
Speaker 6: Opportunity to do is to represent the stakeholders who are
Speaker 6: in the middle of that and and like you said, Matt,
Speaker 6: like to sort of represent, to help support, to direct,
Speaker 6: to empower, and to elevate the voice of that of
Speaker 6: the stakeholders, the actual hunters and anglers.
Speaker 2: You. So you mentioned something there Matt a second ago
Speaker 2: about just that energy you know that you have there
Speaker 2: that you can harness, and it just got me thinking
Speaker 2: about another part of this part of my of my
Speaker 2: role that gives me so much energy, And it's the
Speaker 2: fact that this kind of work because of those types
Speaker 2: of impacts that you guys are talking about, because of
Speaker 2: the downstream effects that we can help bring to life.
Speaker 2: It's just personally so like intellectually stimulating and internally motivating.
Speaker 2: And I think that's a huge positive too. Like when
Speaker 2: I wake up in the morning and I know that
Speaker 2: what I'm going to be working on today has the
Speaker 2: potential to make that difference, Like what I'm going to
Speaker 2: be working on today like lights of fire in my belly,
Speaker 2: and I'm excited to get to the computer and start
Speaker 2: writing about this thing, or I'm excited to fly to
Speaker 2: wherever and work on this project because like I know
Speaker 2: it's going to make a difference, and I know there's
Speaker 2: gonna be other people that'll be influenced by and that will,
Speaker 2: you know, join me in this thing, and like all
Speaker 2: of that creates like a cycle of positivity and like
Speaker 2: your own you know, in your daily life that I
Speaker 2: know from my previous work I've done, you don't have that,
Speaker 2: even when you've got a great salary and maybe it's
Speaker 2: challenging work and fun people, when there's not that sense
Speaker 2: of like, well, I guess it all comes back to
Speaker 2: impact and purpose and what you're doing. But when you
Speaker 2: have that, it lights like a there's something different going
Speaker 2: on in your body and your mind. When you know
Speaker 2: that that's what you're working towards, that I think shines
Speaker 2: a totally different light on everything you do throughout the day.
Speaker 5: So all three of us are parents, right, and so
Speaker 5: you know we we hold that responsibility as a parent
Speaker 5: deer and you know, try to embody and teach and
Speaker 5: it's not the same thing as being a parent, but
Speaker 5: I'm just you know, using that as a metaphor, that
Speaker 5: is part of it. I mean, I do feel like
Speaker 5: with the wave of a wand especially you Mark, I
Speaker 5: mean you guys have a megaphone in terms of how
Speaker 5: to people listen and are influenced by your brand, it's
Speaker 5: the same, it's the same thing. It's just use that
Speaker 5: power for good and get that army moving in the
Speaker 5: right direction. And when you see it happen, and it's
Speaker 5: tangible and you see see action happen, or you see
Speaker 5: regulation or legislation be shot down. Man, how how good
Speaker 5: does that feel? And it's an endless bucket of responsibility
Speaker 5: because there's always going to be those challenges and unfortunately
Speaker 5: they become more complicated as we go forward, just with
Speaker 5: the way the world is. And maybe it wasn't like that,
Speaker 5: and you know our parents' day, they felt like things
Speaker 5: were complicated then. But I mean all of the layers
Speaker 5: of complexity with conservation man and wildlife management and habitat
Speaker 5: and threats to those things, threats through policy and threats
Speaker 5: through actual environmental threats. It is intellectually stimulating. I mean,
Speaker 5: I do feel satisfied from that side of it too.
Speaker 5: You know I didn't mention that earlier, but you're just
Speaker 5: saying that just the challenge, the puzzle that it creates
Speaker 5: is a fun puzzle to tackle and you feel good about.
Speaker 2: It, yeah, one hundred percent. But there It's not all
Speaker 2: rainbows and butterflies all the time, though, is it?
Speaker 3: Like?
Speaker 2: There's there are some inevitable, less sexy parts of this
Speaker 2: line of work, and it all varies depending on the
Speaker 2: specific role you have, of course, but I would assume
Speaker 2: that if someone comes to you and is asking you, like,
Speaker 2: how do I get into this stuff? I'm sure you're
Speaker 2: going to tell them all the things that we just discussed,
Speaker 2: But then maybe there's gonna be some words of caution too.
Speaker 2: What might some of those things be? Uh, Matt, if
Speaker 2: you were giving some thoughts to that eager beaver wanting
Speaker 2: to get into this world.
Speaker 5: Well, that's a that's a slippery slope, right, and let
Speaker 5: me try to think about how.
Speaker 4: You know, there's the positives far far outweigh the negatives.
Speaker 5: But it isn't all uh standing on a stage giving
Speaker 5: a plenary or standing in the weeds and pulling you know,
Speaker 5: you know, pulling a bunch of people behind you to
Speaker 5: cut trees or spray things. You know, a lot of
Speaker 5: a lot of the work that we do is administrative.
Speaker 5: I mean that's you have to enjoy that and also
Speaker 5: be proficient at it. A lot of it is not
Speaker 5: as fast as it seems that your phone tells you
Speaker 5: that it happens.
Speaker 4: I mean, I'm.
Speaker 5: Working on projects that are three years deep that have
Speaker 5: not really moved that much, but I'm still pushing on it.
Speaker 5: And you know, from the viewers stand point. If you're
Speaker 5: on social media and you're watching the results of something
Speaker 5: or a call to action, and you see the next
Speaker 5: one the fifteen seconds later and the next one fifteen
Speaker 5: seconds later, it feels.
Speaker 4: Like it's it is.
Speaker 5: All in that kind of name of all good. But
Speaker 5: sometimes you have to have persistence and dedication and rely
Speaker 5: on your colleagues. So those are things that come to
Speaker 5: my mind. Is that the amount of administrative work. I mean,
Speaker 5: I think this is going to be true. There's all
Speaker 5: these memes out there about if you become a biologist
Speaker 5: or a conservationist, and what your mom thinks and what
Speaker 5: your friends think.
Speaker 4: You know, when I was in school in college, I
Speaker 4: had a bunch of roommates.
Speaker 5: I went to UMass Chris, and a bunch of my
Speaker 5: buddies would tease me because none of them were in wildlife,
Speaker 5: and so they'd say, you know, how a.
Speaker 4: Deer counting one oh one today?
Speaker 5: When I get back to our environment, I'd be like,
Speaker 5: that is you know, that is not exactly what what
Speaker 5: we do.
Speaker 2: It's it's a dropping count, guys, I'm counting deer droppings.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that was my master's degree. So you know, the
Speaker 5: amount of an administrative work to to get these programs
Speaker 5: to occur.
Speaker 4: There is a lot of like non sexy side of it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Chris, uh, your stuff's nothing but glamour, right, oh yeah.
Speaker 6: All the time, you know, big wrapped truck and all
Speaker 6: that kind of stuff. Far from far from far from
Speaker 6: the reality, you know. For one of my as, I've
Speaker 6: transitioned from a chapter coordinator to a policy manager and
Speaker 6: I am more intimately involved with some of the legislative
Speaker 6: and regulatory battles around around the country.
Speaker 3: They're not all battles, I suld. I should I should
Speaker 3: mention there's a lot of.
Speaker 6: Great people doing some good policy work out there that
Speaker 6: you know that that can be solved through you know,
Speaker 6: pretty light bipartisan lifting. But there's a lot of stuff
Speaker 6: that isn't And a lot of stuff these days are
Speaker 6: extremely polarized and contentious, and when you're in some of
Speaker 6: these battles or and you know, strategizing talking to lawmakers,
Speaker 6: you tend to get you sometimes get take take some
Speaker 6: flack and and that can be you know, that is
Speaker 6: something that can be I haven't. I'm getting better at
Speaker 6: letting a lot of that stuff slide off. Like when
Speaker 6: when when a leader of an animal rights organization calls
Speaker 6: me an extremist or a liar. I mean, I can
Speaker 6: let that slide. I can let that slide. But you
Speaker 6: know it is uh, you know, being around and being
Speaker 6: in some of some of these uh negative environments. Can
Speaker 6: you know, that's not necessarily a fun part. It's not
Speaker 6: like working with our chapters executing a conservation project or
Speaker 6: stewardship project. You know, they take those types of things
Speaker 6: take more of a toll, and you of course, like
Speaker 6: Matt said, there's definitely the administrative stuff as well that
Speaker 6: we have to do. But but yeah, so there's there's
Speaker 6: definitely that aspect and and you know the other the
Speaker 6: other thing. Even though we're working with especially Matt and
Speaker 6: I are, like working with state agencies, very often we
Speaker 6: come in contact with a lot of people who work
Speaker 6: for these agencies that even though they're they're in the wildlife,
Speaker 6: fish and Wildlife agency, they might not have a really
Speaker 6: strong connection to hunting or fishing at all, and they've
Speaker 6: had very little contact with the stakeholders, and not all
Speaker 6: that contact might have been positive. You know, they they're
Speaker 6: fielding complaints there's not enough deer or you know, you know,
Speaker 6: why didn't you do a cut in this field like
Speaker 6: you've done in the last for the last however many years.
Speaker 6: So I think oftentimes we have to spend a lot
Speaker 6: of time and energy at uh at building bridges and
Speaker 6: building relationships. Not that that's a bad thing, it's a
Speaker 6: great thing. But you know, sometimes we're unpacking the or
Speaker 6: dealing with problems that we're kind of left left for us,
Speaker 6: and you know that that takes time, and it takes
Speaker 6: you know, building that relationship, building trust. So yeah, we're
Speaker 6: that's that's just you know, comes with the job.
Speaker 5: I suppose I'll elaborate on that too. And Chris said
Speaker 5: something that kind of peaked something in the back of
Speaker 5: my mind. As you know, we are member based organizations
Speaker 5: from the NGO side, and we have volunteers, and we
Speaker 5: talked about all the positive and that again far far
Speaker 5: far out weighs of the negatives. But when working with
Speaker 5: people and communities, you almost need a second degree in psychology,
Speaker 5: you know, to work with volunteers and figure out, you know,
Speaker 5: where there are always going to be differences. People's motivation
Speaker 5: to volunteer are different, their purpose is different. Some people
Speaker 5: might want to work more with youth versus you know,
Speaker 5: bringing out non traditional audiences to learn to hunt or
Speaker 5: the habitat you know, or stewardship or habitat recommendations might
Speaker 5: might be contradictory from one person's pursuit to another, between
Speaker 5: organizations or even within an organization. And so when you're
Speaker 5: working with volunteers, and I did this for several years
Speaker 5: in the beginning when I was one of our regional
Speaker 5: directors working with the chapters or branches, that that being
Speaker 5: a good you know, being a people person and reading
Speaker 5: people and being able to navigate those discussions is part
Speaker 5: of the job. You know, just like having any good
Speaker 5: relationship with friends or kids or a spouse, you know
Speaker 5: you're going to run bumps into the road. And when
Speaker 5: you have those bumps, you got to figure out how
Speaker 5: to navigate around them. And they happen pretty often with
Speaker 5: when you work with people. And that may be a
Speaker 5: legislator versus one of our local volunteer groups, and maybe
Speaker 5: two volunteers in the same chapter or a branch. And
Speaker 5: so that's not something that you're really taught when you're
Speaker 5: going to school for conservation or wildlife for forestry, is
Speaker 5: how to navigate those personal grievances or those personal issues
Speaker 5: and being able to almost be a therapist or a
Speaker 5: mediator between two different people that happens, and I say
Speaker 5: it kind of jokingly, but I'm serious. Is just being
Speaker 5: able to get people to sit down and talk about what,
Speaker 5: you know, why they're having a disagreement. And another thing
Speaker 5: that I think schools are doing a much better job
Speaker 5: now is being a good communicator. Chris just said, you know,
Speaker 5: being able to I've had those same instances where you're
Speaker 5: put on the spot and you have to you have
Speaker 5: to explain yourself in a not in a heated way
Speaker 5: and talk about the facts or even write about or
Speaker 5: be on camera talking about those things that happens. Because
Speaker 5: of NGO's being that conduitive information, you're always going to
Speaker 5: be talking to an audience in written or video form,
Speaker 5: audio form, in front of a live audience, or however
Speaker 5: be And that communication side is also that's not for everybody.
Speaker 5: And I'll tell you there are far more people that
Speaker 5: are not good at that than that are good at that.
Speaker 5: And that's another not a negative, but a consideration. If
Speaker 5: you're going to get into this career, you have to
Speaker 5: be a you know, a mediator therapist, And you also
Speaker 5: have to be really good and think on your feet.
Speaker 5: And then when you do communicate, you have to push
Speaker 5: down any personal feelings you're having to a degree. It's
Speaker 5: always good to pull those in in a positive way,
Speaker 5: but then in a very even tone, communicate the facts
Speaker 5: and talk about you know, why it's important. And I
Speaker 5: do like to show passion. I'm using my hands here
Speaker 5: if you aren't watching me, you know, being Italian, I
Speaker 5: use my hands a lot. But you know, I like
Speaker 5: to show passion and when I'm talking about and it's
Speaker 5: important for the people to connect with you. But you
Speaker 5: also don't want to get to the point where you're
Speaker 5: putting other people down and it's having a negative impact
Speaker 5: on what you're trying to accomplish in the first place.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, there's there's There are so many considerations when
Speaker 2: it comes to getting into this line of work or
Speaker 2: trying to incorporate this as part of your job or
Speaker 2: whatever it might be. And I think you make a
Speaker 2: great point in emphasizing that despite all of these extra considerations,
Speaker 2: despite the parts that are not glamorous, despite you know,
Speaker 2: I think it's almost a rule that you're going to
Speaker 2: make less money if you choose to go to the conservation
Speaker 2: route than if you choose to go some other commercial
Speaker 2: route in many ways or in many different instances, at
Speaker 2: least you know, it just seems like the positive still
Speaker 2: far away, because at least from where I'm sitting in
Speaker 2: my experience, the benefits of feeling like you have a
Speaker 2: real purpose and that you're making an impact and that
Speaker 2: you're making a positive difference that gives me so much
Speaker 2: more satisfaction than having enough money to buy a nicer
Speaker 2: car or something like that. I know everybody's situation is different,
Speaker 2: everyone has different burdens, it's different for everybody, but I
Speaker 2: feel like that's been a very consistent thing I've heard
Speaker 2: across the board from almost anyone who's chosen to take
Speaker 2: this kind of leap. So that leads us to like
Speaker 2: the inevitable final piece on this side of things, which
Speaker 2: is just like, Okay, now it sounds like this is
Speaker 2: something that I want to do. I've been thinking I've
Speaker 2: wanted to do it for a long time.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 2: I've heard these two inspiring stories. I've heard the good
Speaker 2: and the bad. Yes, sign me up. Where's this really
Speaker 2: easy job board that lists every single conservation job that
Speaker 2: I can just quickly sign up and get this gig.
Speaker 3: How do you do that? Right?
Speaker 2: It's not that easy? What Chris, what would you tell
Speaker 2: someone who's like, Okay, I want to find a job
Speaker 2: in this kind of world. I want to make a
Speaker 2: positive difference. I love the natural world. I love hunting
Speaker 2: or fishing or rivers and forests and prairies, and I
Speaker 2: want to do something like that. How do you how
Speaker 2: do you get that job?
Speaker 7: Chris?
Speaker 3: It? Yeah, it's a it's a question.
Speaker 6: A lot of people are asking and and and I
Speaker 6: should mention that in it in the space, partically in
Speaker 6: the agency space, they are looking for people. They want people,
Speaker 6: and they want to they want people to to stay put.
Speaker 3: For a period of time.
Speaker 6: I had a meeting yesterday with the directors all the
Speaker 6: fishing game agency directors yesterday and one of the tough
Speaker 6: conversations that we were having was about how do we
Speaker 6: retain wildlife professionals beyond five years. So they're they're looking
Speaker 6: and they're looking for good people. So I think you
Speaker 6: know to start your search if this is something that
Speaker 6: you're interested in, I think you have to connect with
Speaker 6: the professional the professional groups, the professional uh wildlife professionals
Speaker 6: or an organ or the Association of Fisional Wildlife Agencies.
Speaker 6: If you're interested in the nonprofit world, then connecting with
Speaker 6: you know, the nonprofits, becoming a member, volunteering, seeing if
Speaker 6: like the the your values are reflected in the organization,
Speaker 6: picking up skills. I think those are all important steps
Speaker 6: in the process. I mean, there are, of course recruiting agencies,
Speaker 6: and all of our organizations are regularly posting positions that
Speaker 6: are available. But it goes back to something I mentioned earlier.
Speaker 6: I think you have to be honest with you know
Speaker 6: what you want out of a career, the balance that
Speaker 6: you're looking for, and you also have to be honest
Speaker 6: about your professional skills and abilities and figuring out ways
Speaker 6: to improve areas of weakness and make yourself an attractive
Speaker 6: candidate for one of these positions. That said, so much
Speaker 6: of it, of this space here that we're in is
Speaker 6: built on relationships. So the more relationships that you can
Speaker 6: build and nurture, the better off you're going to be.
Speaker 6: You have an opportunity to share who you are and
Speaker 6: what you're about in all of those personal contacts and relationships,
Speaker 6: and oftentimes that's one of the most important and the
Speaker 6: most overlooked parts of this whole thing, and yeah, yeah,
Speaker 6: what about you, Matt.
Speaker 5: Chris is right, there are opportunities now. And not to
Speaker 5: sound like the old man walking uphill both ways or whatever,
Speaker 5: but there are lots of opportunities now because people are
Speaker 5: retiring and that generation, the baby boomer generation that we're
Speaker 5: losing hunters, we're losing not to resource professionals, because they're
Speaker 5: they're making space within all of the buckets that we
Speaker 5: mentioned before.
Speaker 4: And when I was getting out.
Speaker 5: Of school, it was harder to find a job. Not
Speaker 5: that it's easy now, but there just was no space.
Speaker 5: And so if you were interested, I think there is opportunity.
Speaker 3: Mark.
Speaker 5: There actually is a couple of conservation job boards that
Speaker 5: people can go look at Texas A and N. If
Speaker 5: you just type in Texas A and M job board,
Speaker 5: I think it's conservation job board is another one. I
Speaker 5: can provide the links to you if you want to
Speaker 5: share with people, but there are a couple like unique
Speaker 5: places that you can go look. I'll also say Chris
Speaker 5: is right in surrounding yourself and building relationships, but I'll
Speaker 5: kind of take a step back from that. You know,
Speaker 5: different jobs have different requirements. Some might involve a degree
Speaker 5: that you don't have, and so that's a path that
Speaker 5: you want to go down. You have to start looking
Speaker 5: at schools and try to get a degree in it.
Speaker 5: And there's a lot of online programs you can try
Speaker 5: to get those degrees. Some are going to and a
Speaker 5: lot will require a master's degree, not only a bachelor's
Speaker 5: but a master's and that's more on you know, it
Speaker 5: depends on what level work. If you're going to spend
Speaker 5: your career. If you do this doing more out outdoor
Speaker 5: technician type work like the doer, that wouldn't require an
Speaker 5: advanced degree. If you want to be in more of
Speaker 5: an administrative role, you wouldn't need something like that. But
Speaker 5: I would say, figure out what direction you want to go,
Speaker 5: and you can do a couple things.
Speaker 4: To do that.
Speaker 5: Great advice is to just surround yourself, get involved, join organizations.
Speaker 5: Join if there's you know, opportunities, if you want to
Speaker 5: explore something with your local state agency to go volunteer,
Speaker 5: go knock on the door, call people there. I was
Speaker 5: fortunate that I knew somebody that was affiliate with an
Speaker 5: agencycy early on, I was able to ask those questions.
Speaker 5: But there's no reason why you couldn't go to your
Speaker 5: local agency and make an appointment and talk to somebody
Speaker 5: there and express those things. And I would say internships
Speaker 5: are also another great opportunity because there will be these
Speaker 5: kind of trial by a you know, opportunities in NGO world,
Speaker 5: but also doing things for all of the other private
Speaker 5: sector federal agency. You can go do like an intern
Speaker 5: or volunteer day and talk to people, so you don't
Speaker 5: have to dive one hundred percent in. You can kind
Speaker 5: of try different things out before you do it. But
Speaker 5: my kind of reflecting back to my mention about being persistent,
Speaker 5: I mentioned I got a master's degree, but it didn't
Speaker 5: just fall in my lap. And this is one thing
Speaker 5: that a piece of advice that I have told anybody
Speaker 5: that's a young person that's looking to go into a
Speaker 5: career is if they're going to get a master's is
Speaker 5: to try to surround themselves with the type of people
Speaker 5: that they're interested in doing the degree. And so for me,
Speaker 5: it was deer and so I looked up all the
Speaker 5: different when I was in high school or college. When
Speaker 5: I was in college, I looked up all the different
Speaker 5: places that good dear research was being produced and so
Speaker 5: a lot of that was in scientific literature. I mean,
Speaker 5: it's only like a couple couple names that usually come
Speaker 5: out with that type of thing. So I familiarized myself
Speaker 5: with the universities and the professors that were churning out
Speaker 5: good deer research, and I started making phone calls and said,
Speaker 5: I'm an undergraduate, I'm interested in going to school for deer,
Speaker 5: you know, in a couple of years for a master's degree.
Speaker 5: Can I come visit you? And I got in my
Speaker 5: pickup truck or car back then, and I would go
Speaker 5: visit and you know, put myself in front of those
Speaker 5: folks and applied to schools when there was the opportunity.
Speaker 5: But the position I ended up getting was because of
Speaker 5: exactly that I was just a known commodity. And I
Speaker 5: think that would that type of effort would would be
Speaker 5: replicated in any of the buckets I mentioned. So if
Speaker 5: you really want to work for a policy group, or
Speaker 5: if you really want to work for a private consultant
Speaker 5: that is nearby that does wildlife and forestry work, you know,
Speaker 5: or if you want to do something with a state agency,
Speaker 5: be known, don't just hope go do it, Like make
Speaker 5: those phone calls, make you know, send emails, be persistent,
Speaker 5: be polite, and just be somebody that you portray yourself
Speaker 5: as professional, respectful, and you're a go getter. I mean,
Speaker 5: this is like anything in life. We're not even talking
Speaker 5: about conservation, but just that's what I did and the
Speaker 5: position that I ended up getting, the graduate position studying
Speaker 5: deer poop mark I fell in my lap.
Speaker 4: Actually we did, no.
Speaker 5: Yeah, my project had to do with a winter feeding
Speaker 5: up in the north. You know, people dump out corn
Speaker 5: in the winter and it's not good for deer, but
Speaker 5: poop had something to do with it. But that ended
Speaker 5: up because I was known. The professor knew I was looking,
Speaker 5: and he said, hey, I got a project coming up
Speaker 5: and would you be interested. And that was awesome because
Speaker 5: I ended up living and working at a research facility
Speaker 5: that we had captive gear or research dear that we
Speaker 5: were doing metabolic research. But every summer I got to
Speaker 5: work with a bunch of undergraduates and we had thirty
Speaker 5: or forty fonds that we were bottle raising. And I
Speaker 5: mean that that was an awesome experience that came with it.
Speaker 5: But my advice to anybody listening this is do your research,
Speaker 5: dip your toes in and then once you kind of
Speaker 5: figure out the path, if you're hungry, just jump in
Speaker 5: and you'll make it happen.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I just quickly added, and this is like I'll
Speaker 6: pre physic by saying, this is the case across like
Speaker 6: all industries, all spaces.
Speaker 3: But you know, one of the things that.
Speaker 6: Is a reality is when you are on the inside,
Speaker 6: things are different than what you might have men. That's
Speaker 6: the case for the in the NGOs, it's the case
Speaker 6: in the industry. And so yeah, like there is that reality.
Speaker 3: And for some.
Speaker 6: People that's a little bit shocking when they they've come in,
Speaker 6: they've been you know, involved, and when they sort of
Speaker 6: get a different perspective of things, they're a little bit
Speaker 6: taken aback. But like I said that, that's normal in
Speaker 6: any space. And then the only other kind of like
Speaker 6: you know, like our job, Matt and I, our job
Speaker 6: is not.
Speaker 3: To go deer hunting.
Speaker 6: Like do we get opportunities to do that that you
Speaker 6: know that we might not have, but that I might
Speaker 6: not have had as a teacher. Certainly, definitely, I'm not
Speaker 6: going to fully admit that. But I think the other
Speaker 6: important thing to just acknowledge, and this goes back to
Speaker 6: that advice about knowing your what you're interested in, your
Speaker 6: values and and everything is if if hunting or fishing
Speaker 6: is a real passion, like there, there is reason to
Speaker 6: sort of be aware and cautious about aligning that so
Speaker 6: close to your job and and Mark like you've you've
Speaker 6: kind of talked a little bit about this over the
Speaker 6: years and have been really honest about it, which I've
Speaker 6: really appreciated that, and I've been able to relate to
Speaker 6: that at times where you know, this passion of yours
Speaker 6: is so close to what you're doing for work, and
Speaker 6: you've put this extra like this pressure on you that
Speaker 6: doesn't necessarily need to be there, and that cuts in
Speaker 6: a little bit on the passion. You have to set boundaries,
Speaker 6: you have to be aware of that, and because it's
Speaker 6: going to impact you, it's going to impact your family,
Speaker 6: it's can impact your ability to have an impact in
Speaker 6: the space that you want to to have.
Speaker 5: Excellent, very good fact excellent West Chris, Yes, yeah, very true.
Speaker 2: I'll jump in with one last kind of pile on
Speaker 2: note and kind of validate something you said there in
Speaker 2: regards to you know, the the do everything be everywhere approach.
Speaker 2: Once you figure out your lane. That applies not just
Speaker 2: to NGOs or agency work or being a practitioner on
Speaker 2: the ground. It also applies to like the conservation communicator
Speaker 2: role as well. So I have lots of people who
Speaker 2: are asking me how do I make media? Like how
Speaker 2: do I do a podcast? How do I become a writer?
Speaker 2: How do I become a TV show host? How do
Speaker 2: I do this thing or that thing? And all of
Speaker 2: those things plus everything. Both of you described the same
Speaker 2: approach does work, which is you know you just said,
Speaker 2: figure out what your thing is. Figure out what your
Speaker 2: angle is or what your lane is, or what your
Speaker 2: unique skill set is. So like, are you do you
Speaker 2: have that science background and you can be someone who
Speaker 2: can work in resource management, or are you a great
Speaker 2: orator or are you a great writer or are you
Speaker 2: passionate about photography? Find out whatever your thing is that
Speaker 2: you can bring to the world, and then do it.
Speaker 2: I think that that's a big thing. Some people think
Speaker 2: they need to wait until they get permission to do
Speaker 2: the thing, or to wait until someone validates them and
Speaker 2: says like, hey, you now work in this field, Now
Speaker 2: you can do your thing, or they're waiting for someone
Speaker 2: to bring it to them. You kind of alluded to that, Matt, like,
Speaker 2: no one's going to knock on your door and ask
Speaker 2: you to do this stuff. You have to put it
Speaker 2: out into the world. So my biggest advice is, once
Speaker 2: you decide on what your thing is that you can
Speaker 2: bring to the world, do it. Do it, make it,
Speaker 2: create it, start doing the work. So if you want
Speaker 2: to be a habitat manager, go out there and volunteer
Speaker 2: do projects. Go and volunteer on the back forty or
Speaker 2: go out there and be a part of these different
Speaker 2: events and do the work and showcase, hey, I've done
Speaker 2: this stuff. I'm doing it all the time, I'm getting
Speaker 2: better at it. Or if you want to be a
Speaker 2: podcaster or you want to be a writer, don't wait
Speaker 2: for Field and Stream to tell you to start writing
Speaker 2: for them. Just start writing all the time, getting better
Speaker 2: at the craft, doing the thing, and put it out
Speaker 2: into the world. Whatever the thing is you end up doing,
Speaker 2: make sure the world knows about it, share it with
Speaker 2: the world, put it out there as much as you
Speaker 2: possibly can. Because that leads to the final thing which
Speaker 2: you both alluded to, which is, like, so much of
Speaker 2: this is network based. It's based on who you know
Speaker 2: who knows of you, who's aware of your work, who's
Speaker 2: aware of your skill set, who's aware of your talent
Speaker 2: or of the value you bring to the table. And
Speaker 2: so you just need to make and do and share
Speaker 2: and work with other people. And if you do that
Speaker 2: over and over and over again with this set of
Speaker 2: values and motivation that we've been talking about, with that
Speaker 2: fuel burning and making your fire go and go and go,
Speaker 2: you can make this work. You can do this stuff.
Speaker 2: But you know it's it's it's not it's not easy.
Speaker 2: It's easier said than done. But I think we all
Speaker 2: agree it's it's well worth it, right.
Speaker 5: It's easy if it's a genuine burn, if that if
Speaker 5: that fuel is genuine, if you're doing it for self
Speaker 5: validation or val, not self held validation from the outside
Speaker 5: to get approval, which is you know, just being a parent,
Speaker 5: just watching all the stuff out there and trying to
Speaker 5: figure out, you know, self esteem and all the things
Speaker 5: that we all we all have doubts about ourselves. Don't
Speaker 5: do it for for that. Do it because you have
Speaker 5: a genuine feel of wanting to do it, and do
Speaker 5: it for yourself honestly, as much as it is about
Speaker 5: the difference that you make. Do it because you want
Speaker 5: to be proud of yourself to do that, to make
Speaker 5: a difference.
Speaker 2: Sleep a lot better at night when you know you
Speaker 2: did something. Yes, I always anyone who's listened to me
Speaker 2: for any period of time has heard me say this,
Speaker 2: and I'll say it to the day I die. But
Speaker 2: you know this line from Avon Shinar, the greatest cure
Speaker 2: for depression is action. And that's like, that's become like
Speaker 2: the mantra for my life. Like every time I see
Speaker 2: some new headline about this river getting polluted and this
Speaker 2: species going into decline and this public land that's being threatened.
Speaker 2: You hear all this stuff, and it's so easy to
Speaker 2: get down in the dumps about it, and it's so
Speaker 2: easy to you know, feel that like cloud hanging over you, like, jeez,
Speaker 2: what is the world going to be like when my
Speaker 2: kids grow up? Anytime I start feeling that way, you know,
Speaker 2: I just think, Okay, well, now what what then, Like,
Speaker 2: what's the step I can take? What's the action I
Speaker 2: can take? And that immediately makes you feel better in
Speaker 2: the short term and the long term. And that's I
Speaker 2: think so much of what this conversation. I think revolves
Speaker 2: around it. I think there's a lot of people listening, reading, watching,
Speaker 2: seeing the world around them, who care about wildlife, who
Speaker 2: care about wild places, who love to hunt and fish,
Speaker 2: They love these things, and they're seeing they're seeing those
Speaker 2: loves threatened, and they're thinking to themselves one of two things.
Speaker 2: Either hands in the air, it's all going to shit
Speaker 2: and they're feeling really lousy about it, or they can say,
Speaker 2: all right, now what And I hope this conversation is
Speaker 2: an answer to that question, at least to some degree,
Speaker 2: which leads us, though, to a second part of the conversation,
Speaker 2: which we've gone way longer than I thought in the
Speaker 2: first part. So apologies to both of you for keeping
Speaker 2: you here longer than we originally discussed. But there's so
Speaker 2: much good stuff to cover there on the Hey, what
Speaker 2: if you want to work professionally for wildlife, But what
Speaker 2: if you want to work non professionally for wildlife. What
Speaker 2: if there's someone listening who loves all this stuff, wants
Speaker 2: to be able to make an impact, but the same
Speaker 2: time has a career that's already fulfilling, that's already checking
Speaker 2: all the boxes for them, and they're just looking for
Speaker 2: a way to do this kind of stuff in the
Speaker 2: other part of their life.
Speaker 4: We'll keep this a.
Speaker 2: Little bit more brief in the first half. What would
Speaker 2: be like a handful of ways that you guys have
Speaker 2: found to be the most impactful ways to do that
Speaker 2: for someone listening that wants to start making a positive
Speaker 2: impact on fish, wildlife, public lands, conservation, whatever their specific
Speaker 2: passion is. Chris, what would be a couple suggestions you
Speaker 2: might throw out there for folks.
Speaker 6: I think a great starting point for people is to
Speaker 6: simply learn to take the time to read so that
Speaker 6: you can better understand why agencies or like what is
Speaker 6: the what's the logic behind conservation efforts? I think that
Speaker 6: is a great starting point. It's going to make the
Speaker 6: time that you can go and actually do something, you know,
Speaker 6: whether it be volunteer some time or whatever, it's going
Speaker 6: to make it You're going to be able to see
Speaker 6: and understand better what you're doing and why you're doing it.
Speaker 6: It's going to make you a better conservation advocate in
Speaker 6: the long run. So that's it, Like you know, and
Speaker 6: it doesn't have to be like you don't have to
Speaker 6: you don't have to go out and read every conservation book.
Speaker 3: It could be as simple as yeah, y, I was actually.
Speaker 6: Thinking of your your your recommendations from yesterday for for
Speaker 6: Earth Day and and anyways. Uh so after you've read
Speaker 6: that book and what you had, like if your state
Speaker 6: agency has a magazine, sometimes it's it's a separate thing,
Speaker 6: a some separate subscription. It's usually not much, but in
Speaker 6: there they're going to profile the conservation projects, the initiatives
Speaker 6: that they have underway. And it's obviously it's more in
Speaker 6: depth than a than an Instagram post or something, and
Speaker 6: that way you can understand the efforts and the motivation
Speaker 6: is behind. You know, your your state agency. That's starting
Speaker 6: point number one, and then number two. Just find opportunities,
Speaker 6: whether it's through uh nd A or b h A
Speaker 6: or whatever. UH attend a project or.
Speaker 3: You know every.
Speaker 6: Land trust are doing projects, uh state or are some
Speaker 6: federal fish and wildlife refugees are doing stuff all the time.
Speaker 6: And I think those are just simple, great opportunities to
Speaker 6: to to go out there and make a difference in
Speaker 6: an organized way.
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's a local.
Speaker 5: Property that is you know, publicly accessible, state, federal county,
Speaker 5: and there's likely some kind of friends of group, you know,
Speaker 5: friends of that group, friends of that property. Those those
Speaker 5: are good opportunities to kind of plug in locally. That
Speaker 5: was learned is a great baseline Chris, that was that
Speaker 5: was good advice. And I thought about this, Mark, you know,
Speaker 5: when you send us a message before recording, is what
Speaker 5: would what would the baseline advice be? Is obviously a volunteer.
Speaker 5: I mean, that's what a volunteer is. And uh, there
Speaker 5: are tons of ng os out there like us that
Speaker 5: are geared toward you know, a specific niche so whatever
Speaker 5: that would be. And so that kind of goes without saying.
Speaker 5: But I was thinking more deeply about that advice. Why
Speaker 5: would you want to do that? You know, as you know,
Speaker 5: we're we're people, right, and we're we're kind of a
Speaker 5: community based species. Like we like being around others that
Speaker 5: are similar to us, related to us, that like the
Speaker 5: same things. And that's one of the great things about
Speaker 5: volunteerism is you're you're plugging yourself into a community and
Speaker 5: you will draw from that. You can kind of go
Speaker 5: in full bore and become, you know, a volunteer every
Speaker 5: weekend or if you're you know, busy with work and
Speaker 5: family and other obligations, you can you can kind of
Speaker 5: come and go. That's what's great about being a volunteer
Speaker 5: is you give what you can. It could be financial.
Speaker 5: There's like the three t's right, time, treasure, and what's
Speaker 5: the other one. Chris, I trying to remember what the
Speaker 5: other T is. But it's like the three ways to give.
Speaker 5: You could give financially, you give your time or talent.
Speaker 5: You know, your talent is the third one. Uh, those
Speaker 5: are those are like that. That's the three legs of
Speaker 5: the stool of a volunteer. And everybody has something. You know,
Speaker 5: if you don't have the financial means to give a
Speaker 5: couple of dollars or become a member, you know, most
Speaker 5: organizations twenty thirty forty dollars to be a member per year,
Speaker 5: you certainly have a talent because everybody has something.
Speaker 4: They can give.
Speaker 5: Maybe you're a graphic artist for work full time and
Speaker 5: you can provide that, or maybe you take really good
Speaker 5: photos or you know, instead of being there for giving time.
Speaker 5: But those are the three categories that volunteers exist in.
Speaker 5: And you can do it one hundred percent and go,
Speaker 5: you know, a million miles an hour and volunteer all
Speaker 5: the time, or you can just do a little bit.
Speaker 5: But those, I would say, surrounding yourself in a community
Speaker 5: of like minded folks. So I'm a deer guy. You know,
Speaker 5: there's a deer behind me in the video. I like
Speaker 5: being part of the organization I work for, and I
Speaker 5: eventually applied for a job because I just loved it
Speaker 5: so much. I'm talking to people about deer all the time.
Speaker 5: My wife would think that I would get sick of it,
Speaker 5: but I don't. I just I love talking about deer
Speaker 5: and dear research and deer hunting and dear you know,
Speaker 5: all of the things around that.
Speaker 4: That's me.
Speaker 5: I mean, that's who I am. I've been like that
Speaker 5: since I was little. But if you're super passionate about
Speaker 5: our public lands, that country Hunters and Anglers is the
Speaker 5: group for you. If you're a turkey hunter, there's the
Speaker 5: National Wild Turkey Federation. So there's all these groups that
Speaker 5: are national and goos. But don't look past those local
Speaker 5: groups too. Chris hit the nail on the head. Because
Speaker 5: you live in a community and there's some environmental issue,
Speaker 5: whether it's development happening too fast, or some piece of
Speaker 5: property that is being threatened by invasive species or something
Speaker 5: that's going to be built on there whatever you feel
Speaker 5: like giving to find that group and plug yourself in.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and if you want to be a kind of
Speaker 6: like have a force multiplier approach to conservation volunteering, there's
Speaker 6: a couple of things you could do. You can take
Speaker 6: your kids with you and involve them and and sort
Speaker 6: of nurture that aspect and you know that becomes part
Speaker 6: of what you do as a family and gets them
Speaker 6: outside and I think that's a great one. And then
Speaker 6: you know, going back to like the friends groups that
Speaker 6: you mentioned, Uh, you know, we've we've we have at
Speaker 6: times some of the local chapters are have gotten together.
Speaker 6: Not a bha thing, but we'll go to a friends
Speaker 6: of a refuge event and just help out. We're not
Speaker 6: over it. We're not like making a big thing about
Speaker 6: our presence. You know, maybe you wear a camo hat
Speaker 6: or a hat or whatever, and you know, time over time,
Speaker 6: people recognize these are a bunch of hunters coming to help,
Speaker 6: you know, do this, help this project, you know, remove
Speaker 6: this evasive plant or whatever and it And why that
Speaker 6: is a multiplier is because you're representing the community and
Speaker 6: you're showing up and doing things in areas that are
Speaker 6: kind of adjacent to you know, to what you normally
Speaker 6: would do, and those types of things make a huge,
Speaker 6: huge difference.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I like that both of you mentioned physically showing up
Speaker 2: because because there are there's like two ways we can
Speaker 2: be advocates or conservationists in our spare time. There's there's
Speaker 2: the things we can do, you know, digitally or through
Speaker 2: a phone call, right, we can we can call a legislator.
Speaker 2: We can call a friend and tell them about this
Speaker 2: thing we can learn, which is very very important. That's
Speaker 2: a very important baseline. You can send a tweet, make
Speaker 2: a blog post, do a podcast about this kind of stuff,
Speaker 2: and all that stuff is good and helpful and important.
Speaker 2: You can share your photography, very good. But there is
Speaker 2: something special, There's something magical. And you guys heard my
Speaker 2: spiel last year when I talked about this at the
Speaker 2: Working for Wildlife events. But there is something different that
Speaker 2: happens when you make that shift from just like talking
Speaker 2: about this stuff to actually showing up physically for it.
Speaker 2: And it's my snowball theory, and I'll share it again
Speaker 2: even though I know you both know it. What happens,
Speaker 2: I think is that when you start showing up for
Speaker 2: conservation in a physical way you arrive at an event,
Speaker 2: you say, you know, I'm going to pick up trash
Speaker 2: all day today because I care enough, Or I'm going
Speaker 2: to go and plant trees today or collect acorns or
Speaker 2: whatever it is, clean up a river. You are kind
Speaker 2: of staking a flag in the ground. It says something
Speaker 2: about you. This becomes your identity when you're willing to
Speaker 2: take the time out of daily life to drive somewhere
Speaker 2: else or to hike out somewhere else, to actually get
Speaker 2: your hands dirty for these places, for these animals. That
Speaker 2: is saying something about you in a very real way.
Speaker 2: And that doesn't end on that day, because if you
Speaker 2: can show up tomorrow or yesterday Earth Day. My wife
Speaker 2: was like, hey, let's real quick, grab a trash bag
Speaker 2: and let's just go for a walk with the kids,
Speaker 2: and let's just make sure we're actually taking real action today.
Speaker 2: I was like, Yes, you're absolutely right, let's go do it.
Speaker 2: And just that little bit of my kids going out
Speaker 2: there yesterday and spending an hour walking through the woods
Speaker 2: picking up trash, that says a little bit of something
Speaker 2: about them in them, a little bit of them is changing.
Speaker 2: And tomorrow when they're out there and they see a
Speaker 2: turtle crossing the road or something. They're going to be
Speaker 2: just a little bit more likely to say, Hey, you know,
Speaker 2: I'm the kind of person that picks up trash because
Speaker 2: I care about nature. So I'm also the kind of
Speaker 2: person who's going to take the time to hold my
Speaker 2: dad's hand, look both ways, go into the road and
Speaker 2: pick up that turtle. Right, and in a more serious note,
Speaker 2: like with any of us, right, if you can pick
Speaker 2: up that trash today, then next week you can pick
Speaker 2: up that trash on the side of the road, because
Speaker 2: you know you're that kind of person. And then maybe
Speaker 2: a month from now, there's some bigger project that maybe
Speaker 2: in your past life what is seen like outside of
Speaker 2: your realm of interest or would be too much work.
Speaker 2: But these little things start adding up, and all of
Speaker 2: a sudden you start realizing you start seeing yourself in
Speaker 2: a different way because hey, well I did that thing
Speaker 2: last week, and I did this thing last month, and gosh,
Speaker 2: I kind of amd that kind of person. And you
Speaker 2: start having this snowball effect where all of a sudden,
Speaker 2: you're making more and more of an impact, and you're
Speaker 2: surrounding yourself with people who are also doing these kinds
Speaker 2: of things. And you get this compounding effect if you're
Speaker 2: putting yourself out there, surrounding yourself with people that care
Speaker 2: about these things too, and actually investing a little bit
Speaker 2: of your time and energy. That is I think how
Speaker 2: any big important thing has happened in this world. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and I think that's how we can make real change
Speaker 2: to help deer, public lands, trout stripe, bass, prairie or
Speaker 2: ass lands, whatever it is. That's how we're going to
Speaker 2: start making a difference. And so it's a long winded
Speaker 2: wind up to say we've done some of these things
Speaker 2: over the last year with the Working for Wildlife tour
Speaker 2: that both of you helped out with and we're part of,
Speaker 2: and to kind of wrap it up, I guess I
Speaker 2: would like to just hear a little bit from both
Speaker 2: of you about your takeaways from those events last year,
Speaker 2: and I do want to plug a couple upcoming events
Speaker 2: here for twenty four to two. So Chris, I want
Speaker 2: to start with you on this front because you helped
Speaker 2: us with our very first event last year there in Massachusetts,
Speaker 2: and when it bumped into you the other day at
Speaker 2: the BHA Rendezvous, you mentioned that there have been like
Speaker 2: a whole series of like rippling effects coming out of
Speaker 2: that event. I'd love to hear your takeaway from that day,
Speaker 2: what you thought about the whole thing, and then you
Speaker 2: know what's happened since that. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was a good I mean, it was a
Speaker 3: great day.
Speaker 6: And it was you know, as you said, it was
Speaker 6: the first first of the tour, first for us to
Speaker 6: to sort of plan an event, because it kind of
Speaker 6: kind of became a kind of an event conservation event.
Speaker 6: We had to It took place on the north shore
Speaker 6: of Massachusett at w May and you know, there's only
Speaker 6: limited parking on a w May and we had a
Speaker 6: lot of people registered to attend, so I had to
Speaker 6: secure off site parking.
Speaker 3: I had to get a minibus. I had to get
Speaker 3: a minibus driver.
Speaker 6: You know, we wanted to make sure that we had food,
Speaker 6: and the State Agegency mass Wildlife got got involved. So
Speaker 6: there was all this logistics that were you know required,
Speaker 6: and again these logistics are are a product of of
Speaker 6: of Marks platform and support and willingness to engage in
Speaker 6: this and engage with the cunning community uh in Massachusetts.
Speaker 6: So yeah, a lot of people came, and a lot
Speaker 6: of the state agency people came, many of whom were
Speaker 6: coming from outside the district on their days off and
Speaker 6: were there and really really excited about engaging with constituents.
Speaker 6: And that I think was one thing that was huge,
Speaker 6: the fact that people had an opportunity to spend time
Speaker 6: work alongside, whether it was putting up wood duck boxes
Speaker 6: or just picking up trash, picking up spent shells at
Speaker 6: the shooting range. They had time to meet the people
Speaker 6: who are responsible. They saw the passion all that stuff
Speaker 6: that we talked about for the first hour. They saw
Speaker 6: that in these people, their state employees, and I think
Speaker 6: that was huge. And we had a hugely diverse population
Speaker 6: of people there from real old timers who had just
Speaker 6: not been plugged in with any organization. I mean they
Speaker 6: might have members of organizations and they just heard about
Speaker 6: this event and then it was taking place in a
Speaker 6: place they spent their youth hunting, and they made put
Speaker 6: a lot of effort in trying to be there too.
Speaker 3: A brand new.
Speaker 6: Hunter to you know, are a local Olympic legend coming
Speaker 6: down and taking part and giving of their time. So
Speaker 6: it was just a huge mix of people and experience and.
Speaker 3: Though many of.
Speaker 6: Those people and I talked about this yesterday at my
Speaker 6: PLENARYA I actually put a picture of the group picture
Speaker 6: of all people, and I was talking about how I
Speaker 6: could point to just individual people who have never stepped
Speaker 6: up before, have never offered testimony at a regulatory hearing
Speaker 6: or at a legislative hearing, and who've become involved and
Speaker 6: invigorated through that experience in part because they met all
Speaker 6: people like them and they built community. And it's been
Speaker 6: pretty pretty awesome to see one guy who was there
Speaker 6: at another w A very close to there, I bumped into.
Speaker 6: He was a new hunter, he'd moved to the area,
Speaker 6: and you know, he was inspired just by the conversation
Speaker 6: and that led him to actually shooting a really good buck,
Speaker 6: which I helped him drag.
Speaker 3: Out of the woods.
Speaker 6: So from from conservation things to time in the field
Speaker 6: and experiences in the field, friendships, it's been it's been pretty.
Speaker 5: Uh.
Speaker 3: That snowball It definitely snowballed.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I met someone at the at the b h A
Speaker 2: rendezvous the other day who was at that Boston event.
Speaker 2: And I might get the details, the exact details wrong,
Speaker 2: but the basic gist of the story he shared with
Speaker 2: was that that was the first like event like that
Speaker 2: he'd ever been to and coming out of that, he
Speaker 2: was so invigorated by it that he started getting more
Speaker 2: involved with BHA, started doing doing some more chapter related stuff.
Speaker 2: I guess came to this rendezvous all the way from Massachusetts,
Speaker 2: came all the way to Minnesota for the rendez who
Speaker 2: for the first time and it is now about to
Speaker 2: retire from his previous career in armed services and is
Speaker 2: trying to figure out a way to take a new
Speaker 2: career within the conservation world. And it kind of all
Speaker 2: stemmed from this year journey he's been on since that event.
Speaker 2: So just incredible kind of stories like that to to
Speaker 2: fuel our fire, I think when you hear that kind
Speaker 2: of thing, right, Yeah, so exciting stuff. Matt.
Speaker 3: I also just want to say, like, you know, and
Speaker 3: thank you.
Speaker 6: You gave so much of your time and energy to
Speaker 6: talk to people, to work alongside with people, and I
Speaker 6: think that made just like the fact that they get
Speaker 6: to meet and work with their state agency people to
Speaker 6: to you know, be there alongside you who they've probably
Speaker 6: listened to or watched. I think that also, you know,
Speaker 6: was a big I mean, we're going to be honest here, Matt,
Speaker 6: and I are going to be honest here. That was
Speaker 6: a big part of it, and so we definitely appreciate that.
Speaker 2: That's my absolute pleasure, that's for sure. And even though
Speaker 2: Aaron and the guys from Missouri aren't here, we also
Speaker 2: had another great event with BHA in Missouri last year. Yeah,
Speaker 2: similar effect, I mean, just like really reinvigorating. We got
Speaker 2: to work on all sorts of cool projects out there.
Speaker 2: It was a very diverse event in that we were
Speaker 2: removing encroaching willows within a wetland restoration area. We were
Speaker 2: creating owl roosting locations in a prairie, we were collecting
Speaker 2: native prairie sees for future replanting efforts to restore grasslands.
Speaker 2: There was a couple other things, but there was a
Speaker 2: whole bunch of different projects. A very cool event, and
Speaker 2: then we also had three events with you, Matt and
Speaker 2: the Nash Deer Association. Would love to you know, we
Speaker 2: talked about some of the stuff last year, but would
Speaker 2: love to kind of hear your perspective on what the
Speaker 2: impact of that stuff was or what the trickle down
Speaker 2: effects have been that you've seen, whether that's with volunteers
Speaker 2: or the Forest Service or your organization or anything like that.
Speaker 5: Yeah, same experience that Chris had with a diverse group
Speaker 5: showing up. We did events in northern Idaho, did one
Speaker 5: in Mississippi, and did one in Kentucky last year. All
Speaker 5: three of the events that we held again with Mark
Speaker 5: you mentioned the Forest Service, we did a little bit differently.
Speaker 5: We have a public Lands Initiative. It's just one project
Speaker 5: that we have within the organization, trying to improve a
Speaker 5: million acres of public land, doing this through various methods,
Speaker 5: and one of the ways that we're trying to do
Speaker 5: that is we do stewardship work through the Forest Service.
Speaker 5: So we have contracts to agreements with the US four
Speaker 5: Service around the country, and so we plug that program
Speaker 5: into the Working for Wildlife tour. Our chapters are our branches.
Speaker 5: Our volunteer branches do a variety of different activities and
Speaker 5: they vary based on the makeup of those volunteers. Some
Speaker 5: of them are really strong on hunter recruitment events, some
Speaker 5: of them are really strong on habitat work or education.
Speaker 4: They vary.
Speaker 5: Not as many of our branches or do public land work.
Speaker 5: Some of them do probably the biggest trickle down effect,
Speaker 5: and that's one of the reasons we tried to hold
Speaker 5: it and administer those tour sites from the National Office
Speaker 5: was it just was more opportunity because we have dozens
Speaker 5: of projects going on on public land. It just was
Speaker 5: it was easier to plug in. And the experience was
Speaker 5: similar in terms of the people that showed up varied
Speaker 5: from families to people that had never heard of us before,
Speaker 5: but they hunted that WMA for years, and they showed
Speaker 5: up because there was a volunteer day to some of
Speaker 5: our volunteers and longtime members brand new hunters. It ran
Speaker 5: the gamut. In Idaho, that project was pretty neat. We're
Speaker 5: restoring aspen. In Mississippi, we were planting trees and also
Speaker 5: seeding some areas for game hunting because that's a highly
Speaker 5: used wildlife management area for that upcoming deer season. In Kentucky,
Speaker 5: Mark mentioned picking up acorns. We picked up seven eight
Speaker 5: hundred pounds of white oak acorns which are now being
Speaker 5: grown out in the state nursery. All three projects involved
Speaker 5: other partners. We had the state Wildlife Agency involved in
Speaker 5: each one. But the trickle down effect, we have a
Speaker 5: lot of our branches that are now interested in doing
Speaker 5: these kinds of events. We've always had a few, but
Speaker 5: I've talked to at a national webinar series to our branches,
Speaker 5: and just this year alone, I can name events happening
Speaker 5: in Missouri and in Indiana and other things because of
Speaker 5: the work and for Wildlife Tour. So it did have
Speaker 5: that multiplier effect, and I think it'll become a larger
Speaker 5: part of the persona of our branch network, and we've
Speaker 5: actually provide them guidance on how to hold similar events locally.
Speaker 5: I think one of the best stories that came from
Speaker 5: you know, there are lots of stories and the people
Speaker 5: I met. One of the best stories. Mark and I
Speaker 5: were in Kentucky talking to a young man that brought
Speaker 5: his whole family, little children there, and he was courageous
Speaker 5: enough to talk to us about why he was there.
Speaker 5: We asked a bunch of people, I'm sure you did, Chris,
Speaker 5: you know why they came that day, and he was
Speaker 5: courageous enough to say, you know, we had wanted to
Speaker 5: learn how to hunt, and this was something he was
Speaker 5: trying to do on his own and he figured coming
Speaker 5: to this event that he heard about on the Meat
Speaker 5: Eater and Wired to Hunt platform, it was in his area.
Speaker 5: He was he's a military man, and that event allowed
Speaker 5: us to connect him with somebody through our for service
Speaker 5: contacts there locally that took him out and got him
Speaker 5: his first year. And I shared that with Mark last
Speaker 5: fall and he's he wants to volunteer now and is
Speaker 5: starting one of our branches. So there's these These events
Speaker 5: do have that snowball effect that you talked about. We're
Speaker 5: excited to do more of them and use them as
Speaker 5: a baseline of how not only volunteer branches or chapters
Speaker 5: and mngos can do it, but anybody can do it locally.
Speaker 5: You don't need you just need a couple of people
Speaker 5: and permission to go out and do it. And I'd
Speaker 5: love to see more of this stuff happening.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, it's it's been. It's been a lot of fun.
Speaker 2: Been very fulfilling to see, exciting to see, you know,
Speaker 2: both on like on the day of just hearing all
Speaker 2: the stories and seeing the good work that's getting done.
Speaker 2: And the surprise for me was just all the the
Speaker 2: pure enjoyment of the whole thing. Like I knew i'd
Speaker 2: feel good about doing the work, but I did not
Speaker 2: realize it was just gonna be so much damn fun
Speaker 2: and that there're gonna be so many friendships started and
Speaker 2: connections made. Stories like that like someone getting connected with
Speaker 2: the mentor who was able to help him, you know,
Speaker 2: teach him how to deer on get his first year,
Speaker 2: Like how incredible is that? So that's exciting and it's
Speaker 2: it's it's a big part of why we're continuing the
Speaker 2: tour going this year, and I'm gonna do everything I
Speaker 2: can to keep it going the year after that and
Speaker 2: the year after that and and hopefully see this thing
Speaker 2: grow this year. Right now, we have three events scheduled
Speaker 2: so far. We'll see if there's more or not, but
Speaker 2: we have do we do a three locked in right now?
Speaker 2: Two of which Matt, you are helping organize again, do
Speaker 2: you want to give folks the quick spiel on these
Speaker 2: next two coming up here pretty soon?
Speaker 5: Yeah, we have an event coming up in a month,
Speaker 5: May eighteenth. It's in Kentucky on Daniel Boone National Forest.
Speaker 5: That showing was real strong. We actually had the Kentucky
Speaker 5: BHA volunteers showed up in force that day, Chris, So
Speaker 5: that was awesome. So we have one on May eighteenth
Speaker 5: on Daniel Boone National Forest. We're going to be actually
Speaker 5: on a WMA doing some habitat improvement and access improvement
Speaker 5: within the WMA. Then we have one on June first
Speaker 5: on Allegheny National Forest in northwestern Pennsylvania, and that one's
Speaker 5: going to involve a whole suite of activities, installing bird
Speaker 5: nesting boxes and bat boxes, removing some old fence, and
Speaker 5: actually repairing some fence. They actually have deer fencing up
Speaker 5: all over that National Forest. We're going to be we're
Speaker 5: doing some access work as well and tree and shrub planting,
Speaker 5: and so that's on Saturday, June first.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then we've got another one on August twenty
Speaker 2: fourth that's up in northern Minnesota, right on the edge
Speaker 2: of the Bounder Waters, and we're going to be doing
Speaker 2: a pretty cool project in collaboration with the Minnesota DNR
Speaker 2: and I think with the Forest Service up there too,
Speaker 2: in which we'll be actually creating an access point where
Speaker 2: you can, like they've got all these different access points
Speaker 2: for water access there on the boundary waters and surrounding lakes,
Speaker 2: so we're going to help install an access point off
Speaker 2: this lake and then create white tail wintering habitat back
Speaker 2: in this area as well, so they'll be like a
Speaker 2: public land access component of it and the habitat side,
Speaker 2: So it's gonna be a you know, kind of like
Speaker 2: that other one you mentioned, Matt, A very clear connection
Speaker 2: between man, we're giving back to wildlife and then we're
Speaker 2: also creating opportunities for hunting, fishing, camping, whatever it is.
Speaker 2: It's a big cycle that feeds itself and all these
Speaker 2: parts come together to help both us and the natural resources.
Speaker 2: So very cool stuff. I will definitely be keeping folks
Speaker 2: posted if there's more that we can add to the
Speaker 2: slate this year or early next year. But I'd say
Speaker 2: anyone listening if you would like to participate in one
Speaker 2: of those three events coming up or want to see
Speaker 2: if there's other ones down the line, Rather than try
Speaker 2: and give you a specific url, I don't have it
Speaker 2: easy RL. Just google the Working for Wildlife tour or
Speaker 2: visit the meet at or website which is the meat
Speaker 2: Eater dot com and search for the same thing and
Speaker 2: we will have the latest information there. I think that's
Speaker 2: There should be sign up pages, Matt available for the
Speaker 2: first two right rock and roll, so hit those up.
Speaker 2: Please sign up Kentucky, Pennsylvania, Minnesota, and possibly more to come.
Speaker 2: If you guys, the two of you had any last
Speaker 2: final words. You want to leave folks with a final
Speaker 2: action item, suggestion or just peace out. I got to
Speaker 2: take a nap. How would you like to leave things?
Speaker 7: Chris?
Speaker 3: Uh?
Speaker 6: One thing, just jumping way back to the the career thing.
Speaker 6: I think one of the things that is, and I
Speaker 6: think Matt mentioned it and Mark you touched on it
Speaker 6: was separate. I think I forget exactly how you put it,
Speaker 6: but I think it was, you know, separating your ego
Speaker 6: around a lot of this stuff, particularly you know, in
Speaker 6: this this hunting space. And I think that is really
Speaker 6: important because when you go and make those connections and
Speaker 6: as you start having conversations with people, that is going
Speaker 6: to if your if your motivations aren't you know, I
Speaker 6: don't want to say we all.
Speaker 3: Obviously it's a job, you have to pay, we have
Speaker 3: bills to pay and all that kind of stuff. But
Speaker 3: if your motivations are.
Speaker 6: Outside of what the people would use your skills and
Speaker 6: talents for, it is going to be a parent very
Speaker 6: very quickly. And so I'm always kind of like remind
Speaker 6: myself that, all right, I am, I am operating. This
Speaker 6: could be advantageous for me, but I need to make
Speaker 6: sure that this is going to be the benefit of
Speaker 6: my organization, to the benefit of the resource. And I
Speaker 6: always keep that in mind. And one of the silly
Speaker 6: kind of ways I remind myself and Mark's been in
Speaker 6: my office it.
Speaker 3: Is the wall of four keys.
Speaker 6: In my office because I was I'm on all these
Speaker 6: calls and all these times, and I have the beer
Speaker 6: that I have in my office are four kys.
Speaker 3: Now, I have made an adjustment. I have put in
Speaker 3: a better deer.
Speaker 6: But that was a deer that I did with that
Speaker 6: I that was harvested along side one of my partners
Speaker 6: or one of my mentees, and it was just a
Speaker 6: meaningful experience for both of us. So I've made the
Speaker 6: exception in that case. But it's just a little bit
Speaker 6: of a reminder that, all right, like, this isn't about me,
Speaker 6: This isn't about sometimes, it's not even about Baja. This
Speaker 6: is about working for wildlife. And so that would be
Speaker 6: one point that I would make on the professional front,
Speaker 6: and then just in general, just just get involved. Just
Speaker 6: get out there and do something and find like minded people,
Speaker 6: build community, and let's continue to build that snowball.
Speaker 5: Yeah, mat Uh, this is great advice for anything. Learn
Speaker 5: as Chris said, and share. And that's the one thing
Speaker 5: that I you know, sharing is caring right, you know, share,
Speaker 5: share what you've learned, Pull people along with you on
Speaker 5: the journey, talk to them about what is what you're
Speaker 5: passionate about when you show up to things, because that
Speaker 5: that tangible of showing up. You know, our self identity
Speaker 5: is a big part of how our confidence and how
Speaker 5: we feel about ourselves. As Mark said, So there's the
Speaker 5: physical showing up for a Working for Wildlife event or
Speaker 5: a BHA event or an NDA event or you know,
Speaker 5: whatever that is. But you can also show up and
Speaker 5: be a good son or daughter, or show up and
Speaker 5: be a good parent, or show up and be a
Speaker 5: good friend or a good employee by doing right. And
Speaker 5: part of that is sharing. And so my advice to
Speaker 5: anybody is, if you're inspired by the story of conservation,
Speaker 5: if you're inspired by the work that Chris does or
Speaker 5: that Mark does, or that I do, and you want
Speaker 5: to get involved, either as a volunteer or take the
Speaker 5: deep dive, bring somebody along with you. Some of the
Speaker 5: most meaningful experiences what Chris just said in my life
Speaker 5: have been when other people are involved. And that might
Speaker 5: a lot of that is involved in the outdoors, but
Speaker 5: watching somebody get their first dear or watch their first
Speaker 5: sun rise, or the jitters they get, or my kids
Speaker 5: walking with me in the woods and me just teaching
Speaker 5: them how to walk quietly, and all the things that
Speaker 5: we do as outdoors men and women. A lot of
Speaker 5: it does have to do with sharing and the genuine
Speaker 5: mention that I mentioned that earlier. You know, do it
Speaker 5: for yourself, you know there is that self side of it,
Speaker 5: but don't be afraid to share, share with somebody and
Speaker 5: and take the things that you've learned. I hope people
Speaker 5: are inspired, honestly, you know, not just listen to a
Speaker 5: podcast about it like this one, but to do something.
Speaker 5: And it doesn't need to be grander, it doesn't need
Speaker 5: to be big, but just do something, you know, hold
Speaker 5: somebody's hand and jump in together and do something good.
Speaker 5: It'll make you feel better.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the greatest care for depression Action Action Action. Well,
Speaker 2: thank you both, Thank you so much. I am leaving
Speaker 2: this inspired and reinvigorated and excited to continue trying to
Speaker 2: to make a difference and induce good stuff in this world.
Speaker 2: For these incredible places, incredible creatures. We're so so lucky
Speaker 2: to live in a place where we can do these things,
Speaker 2: where we can hunt and fish and explore. Man, that's
Speaker 2: not the case for everyone. So we got to remind
Speaker 2: ourselves not to take that for granted and not to
Speaker 2: assume that it's guaranteed. We have to make sure that
Speaker 2: we are putting in the effort to maintain these opportunities, privileges,
Speaker 2: and resources. So on us, I will leave with two
Speaker 2: last notes more practically. Number one, an action item that
Speaker 2: everyone I would highly suggest you take if you have
Speaker 2: not already, is become a member of the two organizations
Speaker 2: that these guys are a part of. Both tremendous conservation organizations.
Speaker 2: Both have opportunities and events that you can participate in,
Speaker 2: like we've talked about, even outside of working for wildlife, right,
Speaker 2: there's other stewardship events BHA chapters have as you just mentioned.
Speaker 2: Other chapters are trying to get some things kicked off
Speaker 2: with NBA in places. Man, there's so many opportunities. So
Speaker 2: these are two organizations you can join. Become a member,
Speaker 2: please do. It's Dear Association dot com for the NDA,
Speaker 2: and it is Backcountry Hunters dot Org for BHA. All right,
Speaker 2: you're right, Okay, so head to those websites, become a member,
Speaker 2: get involved, and then I'll reiterate something I just said,
Speaker 2: which is, yes, there's three events scheduled so far for
Speaker 2: the Working for Wildlife Tour this year, but there are
Speaker 2: many other stewardship events across the country involved with other
Speaker 2: organizations all over the place. So if you do not
Speaker 2: live near one of those three we mentioned, don't let
Speaker 2: that stop you. Do a little bit searching around, do
Speaker 2: a little bit bit of googling, reach out to your
Speaker 2: local chapter of whatever organizations you're part of, reach out
Speaker 2: to your your local forest service unit, whatever it is.
Speaker 2: There's probably some way you can get involved. Like Matt said,
Speaker 2: do it, get involved, do the thing, and let's get
Speaker 2: more snowballs rolling.
Speaker 7: Down the hill.
Speaker 2: All right, that is a wrap. Thanks for being here. Please,
Speaker 2: as a mention, make sure you're a member of.
Speaker 4: BHA and NDA.
Speaker 2: I hope you'll take some action after our chat here,
Speaker 2: sign up for those Working for Wildlife events, sign up
Speaker 2: for a different stewardship event, Participate in any kind of
Speaker 2: way you can. When it comes to online advocacy, make
Speaker 2: your phone calls, chat with your legislators. Learn Like Chris said,
Speaker 2: make sure you're maintaining a baseline understanding of the different
Speaker 2: issues ongoing. Follow the news. Make sure that you are
Speaker 2: an educated and enlightened conservationist so you can take action
Speaker 2: on the right things when the time is ready. And well,
Speaker 2: that ill said, thank you.
Speaker 3: Thanks for being here. I appreciate you being a part
Speaker 3: of this community.
Speaker 2: I appreciate you being the kind of person who puts
Speaker 2: a flag in the ground and says, hey, I care
Speaker 2: enough about wildlife, about wild places, about deer hunting, fishing,
Speaker 2: turkey hunting, what every thing is. You care enough to
Speaker 2: do something about it, to give back and to work
Speaker 2: for wildlife. So thanks and stay wired to hunt.