Speaker 1: Around six am on December fourth, two thousand, Rob Will
Speaker 1: and a Houston CoP's son, Michael Alan Rosario, were stripping
Speaker 1: hubcaps in North Houston when two Harris County deputies rolled up,
Speaker 1: and they gave chase through a nearby apartment complex. Deputy
Speaker 1: Hill followed Rob and Deputy Kelly chased Rosario. Just around
Speaker 1: the time the Deputy Hill radioed in that he had
Speaker 1: Rob in custody. Deputy Kelly lost sight of Rosario, and
Speaker 1: then about a minute later, Deputy Kelly heard gunshots coming
Speaker 1: from a little over one hundred yards away. Michael Alan
Speaker 1: Rosario had shot and killed Deputy Hill, and Rosario also
Speaker 1: shot Rob Will's left hand and freed him from his cuffs.
Speaker 1: Rob and Rosario separately fled the scene. Rob boosted a car,
Speaker 1: only to be pulled over and arrested peacefully about an
Speaker 1: hour northwest of Houston. Meanwhile, Michael Alan Rosario fled to
Speaker 1: Rob's girlfriend's apartment, where he is said to have had
Speaker 1: blood on his clothes and washed up in the sink.
Speaker 1: At trial, the prosecution muddied the details about how much
Speaker 1: time Rosario had had to return to the scene and
Speaker 1: murder Deputy Hill, which would have made Rob the only
Speaker 1: possible culprit at the scene, despite the physical evidence of
Speaker 1: the contrary. Rob was convicted of capital murder and sentenced
Speaker 1: to death. One of Rob's appellate attorneys, Sammy Khalil, tells
Speaker 1: me now about the evidence that Dave uncovered, as well
Speaker 1: as the progress in Rob's fight for freedom. This is
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction
Speaker 1: with Jason Flamm.
Speaker 2: That's me.
Speaker 1: I'm your host, and today we're going to discuss a
Speaker 1: case that has been a passion of mine for a
Speaker 1: long time, the case of Robert Jean. Will will be
Speaker 1: joined by his highly esteemed appellate attorney, Sammy Khalil. But first,
Speaker 1: let me take you back to Death Row in Texas,
Speaker 1: the Polunsky Unit, where I had a chance to speak
Speaker 1: with Rob in person. Hey, Rob, thanks for sharing your
Speaker 1: story with us.
Speaker 3: Thank you.
Speaker 2: So let's go back to way before all of this happened.
Speaker 2: Tell us about you as a child.
Speaker 3: Oh man, kind of a quiet type of child who'd
Speaker 3: like to read lot.
Speaker 2: And how was it growing up, I mean, how was
Speaker 2: your home life?
Speaker 3: Kind of grew up around.
Speaker 4: I mean, you know, my dad was murdered I mean
Speaker 4: he'd been in and out of prison before he's murdered.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's really just not good.
Speaker 1: So just before all of this happened, what were you
Speaker 1: doing with your life?
Speaker 4: I was going into my seventy year college for child psychology,
Speaker 4: and I was taking care of my son.
Speaker 3: That was one of my main folks to take care
Speaker 3: of my son and his half brother.
Speaker 4: One of the reason I went to school college for
Speaker 4: child psychology because I was like, Okay, I grew up.
Speaker 3: In evangelical CHRISTI in southern takes some household.
Speaker 4: You didn't talk about problems, you didn't talk about emotion,
Speaker 4: you didn't talk about issues. Now, I remember just never
Speaker 4: having anyone to talk to, Like even after my dad
Speaker 4: was murdered, I didn't. I didn't ever talk to anyone
Speaker 4: at all about it. And getting older, you kind of
Speaker 4: realize how bad it is. And I wanted to get
Speaker 4: a green child psychologist. Okay, I could help children who
Speaker 4: didn't have anyone to talk to, right, And I always
Speaker 4: told myself, I'm going to be there for my son.
Speaker 1: And how old was your son when this tragedy happened.
Speaker 3: He was less than a year old.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I was very active father though I mean, I
Speaker 4: took care of him, changed his diapers, bathe him like
Speaker 4: our society should.
Speaker 3: But I don't. I took care of his half brother.
Speaker 3: It was five four or five.
Speaker 1: So you were going to school, being a good dad.
Speaker 1: But you were also involved with some not so great people.
Speaker 1: I mean, in fact, you were scared bring up some
Speaker 1: extra cash by stripping hobcaps in North Houston with the
Speaker 1: son of an Houston cop named Michael Allan Rosario on
Speaker 1: the morning that Harris County Deputy Barrett Hill was murdered.
Speaker 3: Okay, I was doing student stuff, hanging on idiot people,
Speaker 3: even on a commit this murder. No, I'm responsible for
Speaker 3: engaging in activity I should have known, could have lived
Speaker 3: the bad things. Then I'd be taken away from my son.
Speaker 2: Today we have with us.
Speaker 1: Sammy Khalil Now Sammy is a former assistant Federal Public Defender,
Speaker 1: and he's also a member of the Federal Bar Association,
Speaker 1: the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers, the Harris County
Speaker 1: Criminal Lawyers Association. He's also a fellow of the Texas
Speaker 1: Bar Foundation, a board member of the Texas Defenders Service,
Speaker 1: and of course for quite some time now, you've been
Speaker 1: a part of the legal team including Jay Hewart and
Speaker 1: Karen Otto from Arnold and Porter and to local Houston
Speaker 1: A Joorney's Chad Flores and Oudam Dennell, and they're all
Speaker 1: working together to have the truth come out and free
Speaker 1: Rob Will. So, Sammy, welcome to Ronfuel Conviction. Thank you, Jason,
Speaker 1: and you and I have had the opportunity to spend
Speaker 1: some time together. Of course we were on Doctor Phil's
Speaker 1: show together talking about this very case, and of course
Speaker 1: it starts with Rob Will's unbelievably tragic childhood where he
Speaker 1: was abused terribly.
Speaker 2: His father was murdered when he was ten, right.
Speaker 3: That's right.
Speaker 5: He was in and out of trouble as a kid.
Speaker 5: This happened when he was twenty one. He was arrested
Speaker 5: in December two thousand and has been on death row
Speaker 5: essentially for the last two decades. What we know happened
Speaker 5: Rob and Rocky Michael Allen Rsario's nickname. We're stripping down
Speaker 5: like the hubcaps of a park vehicle in an apartment
Speaker 5: complex in North Houston, six am, December fourth, barely rising,
Speaker 5: and a patrol vehicle arrives at the scene. Deputy Michael
Speaker 5: Kelly was in that patrol vehicle and also Deputy Barrett Hill.
Speaker 5: When they arrive, Rob and Rosario run behind several units
Speaker 5: of the apartment complex. There's kind of like a grassy
Speaker 5: alley way. They are chased. Deputy Hill follows Rob, Deputy
Speaker 5: Kelly follows Rosario. Now Rob takes a hard left through
Speaker 5: an opening between two apartment units. Rocky does the same
Speaker 5: thing but at the next opening, and they both proceed
Speaker 5: in the same direction on either side of this apartment unit.
Speaker 5: They both cross the street. About twenty seconds later, the
Speaker 5: dispatch tates show that Deputy Hill had Rob in custody.
Speaker 5: He radios into the dispatch center saying, I have one
Speaker 5: in custody. It's undisputed that that person in custody is Rob. Meanwhile,
Speaker 5: Rosario continues down a concrete, kind of overgrown driveway in
Speaker 5: this field that's on the other side of the street
Speaker 5: that they both crossed, and Deputy Kelly he admitted that
Speaker 5: he lost sight of Rosario at some point after Rosario
Speaker 5: entered the concrete driveway, and we believe after Rob was
Speaker 5: placed in custody by Deputy Hill, that Michael Allen Rosario
Speaker 5: reached the end of that overgone driveway took a left
Speaker 5: and proceeded back to the area where Rob was handcuffed
Speaker 5: and in custody and murdered. Deputy Hill freed Rob of
Speaker 5: the handcuffs and they both.
Speaker 1: Fled, And we know that Rob was shot in the
Speaker 1: process in his left hand.
Speaker 5: There's no question about that. Rob's third and fourth knuckle,
Speaker 5: maybe the fourth and fifth knuckle of his left hand,
Speaker 5: was essentially blown off.
Speaker 1: Immediately after the tragic, senseless murder of Deputy Hill, Rosario
Speaker 1: went to Rob's girlfriend's home, where he washed his clothes.
Speaker 1: He'd later removed names and numbers from his address book.
Speaker 2: I mean, come on.
Speaker 1: He went on to confess to no less than five
Speaker 1: separate people, who later all every one of them signed
Speaker 1: a sworn affidavit. And it gets worse from there. When
Speaker 1: Rosario's family was asked to produce the clothes he had
Speaker 1: been wearing on the morning of the crime, The clothes
Speaker 1: had been washed, bleached, and neatly folded. These are not
Speaker 1: the actions we typically would associate with someone who is innocent.
Speaker 1: So back to the morning of the murder, Rob boosted
Speaker 1: a car to get away. Now, obviously that's illegal, and
Speaker 1: he doesn't dispute that, but it doesn't make him a murderer.
Speaker 2: In fact, when he.
Speaker 1: Was pulled over about an hour northwest of Houston in Brenham, Texas,
Speaker 1: he was compliant and peaceful toward the arresting officers.
Speaker 4: The prosecutor was a creageous narrative, like, you know, oh,
Speaker 4: we acted afterwards, right, but they don't even want to
Speaker 4: talk about.
Speaker 3: The actual physical evidence. In my case, I think that's
Speaker 3: very important.
Speaker 2: How did you act afterward?
Speaker 3: I ran away? I mean I saw someone get killed. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I'm running away.
Speaker 2: So you're pulled over and arrested.
Speaker 1: They treat your wounded left hand, They bag your hands
Speaker 1: and gloves to be tested for gunshot residue.
Speaker 2: What was going through your mind?
Speaker 3: I was pretty much in a state of trauma, right,
Speaker 3: you know, very very deserving. I didn't give any statement
Speaker 3: to police things. You know, they kept trying to get me.
Speaker 4: To talk about what happened, and you know who was
Speaker 4: with me, and I just didn't give any statement.
Speaker 2: How long were you in jail before trial?
Speaker 3: About a year? In a month?
Speaker 1: I mean, Rob, you knew you hadn't killed that Buby Hill.
Speaker 1: But at the time, did you really think everything was
Speaker 1: going to work itself out?
Speaker 4: You want to think that the system is righteous, the
Speaker 4: system is honorable, those and people in positions of power
Speaker 4: are going to do the right thing.
Speaker 3: I mean, I didn't underst saying anything about the system
Speaker 3: as a whole. I wasn't familiar with criminal justice before
Speaker 3: a movement at the time. I didn't understand the problems.
Speaker 4: They didn't turn over some of the main physical evidence
Speaker 4: in my case. They waited a year and month until
Speaker 4: the day before trial and just take a look at
Speaker 4: the physical evidence. I mean, just like, some of the things.
Speaker 3: Are so ridiculous. It's just obvious and self evident.
Speaker 1: So let's talk about the physical evidence available at trial.
Speaker 1: None of Deputy hillsblood was found on Rob or his clothing,
Speaker 1: the same clothing from the scene that he was arrested in.
Speaker 1: When Rob was arrested, his wounded left hand was treated,
Speaker 1: and his gloves and hands were bagged to be tested
Speaker 1: for gunshot residue. Now that's per Josh Dubin's junk Science
Speaker 1: episode about gunshot residue, which I strongly recommend, one cannot
Speaker 1: conclude that the presence of antimony or barium or other
Speaker 1: elements associated with gunshot residue directly mean that a gun
Speaker 1: was fired or not. It just means that those elements
Speaker 1: are present, but the source really cannot be determined. It
Speaker 1: could be cigarette ash and certain mechanical equipment, even dried urine,
Speaker 1: as well as gunshots. Of course, those things and others
Speaker 1: can all be a potential source of some of these elements. However,
Speaker 1: if none of those elements are found at all out
Speaker 1: of suspect's hands or gloves, it can be said with
Speaker 1: certainty that a gun had not been fired by that
Speaker 1: person's hand.
Speaker 5: It appears to be the state's theory, was the state's
Speaker 5: theory at the time of trial, that Rob had this
Speaker 5: firearm before the murder, somehow, after being handcuffed or in
Speaker 5: the process of being handcuffed, shot himself handcuffed, injured himself,
Speaker 5: and somehow miraculously freed himself of these handcuffs. The problem
Speaker 5: with that theory is that no gunshot residue was ever
Speaker 5: found on Rob's right hand at all.
Speaker 1: So without gunshot residue on the right hand glove or
Speaker 1: his right hand, the one he would have needed to
Speaker 1: shoot his own left hand, obviously, it can be said
Speaker 1: with certainty that he had not fired the gun at all.
Speaker 1: Deputy Hill had not even unholstered his gun, let alone
Speaker 1: fired it, So someone else was at that crime scene
Speaker 1: firing a gun. The ballistics evidence showed that Deputy Hill
Speaker 1: had been shot as close as eight inches away. Had
Speaker 1: Rob shot Deputy Hill from that range, Rob would have
Speaker 1: been covered in Deputy Hill's blood. This was not the case.
Speaker 1: Rob did not have a speck of Deputy Hill's blood
Speaker 1: on him, So obviously someone did shoot Deputy Hill. But
Speaker 1: all evidence points away from Rob and towards Rosario, who,
Speaker 1: by eyewitness accounts, had washed blood off of his clothing
Speaker 1: in Rob's girlfriend's sink. So how in the world did
Speaker 1: the prosecution pin this on Rob? What else did they present?
Speaker 5: The dispatch records are critical. The state said that we're
Speaker 5: so based on its analysis of the dispatch records, only
Speaker 5: had about eight seconds to cover about three hundred feet
Speaker 5: one hundred yards, call it almost a football field. The
Speaker 5: state's position was that Rosario is not an Olympic athlete,
Speaker 5: that he can't cover that distance about three hundred feet
Speaker 5: in eight seconds. But in fact, a careful review and
Speaker 5: analysis of the testimony at trial, matched with the dispatch
Speaker 5: records that were presented at trial, show that Rossario had
Speaker 5: at least anywhere from forty four seconds to a minute
Speaker 5: twenty six seconds in between to reach the scene of
Speaker 5: the crime. So that was not articulated well at trial.
Speaker 5: And what's critical is that Deputy Kelly in the state
Speaker 5: suggested that Rosario went right went east at the end
Speaker 5: of that driveway, although Kelly has since walked back those
Speaker 5: initial intimations and at trial admitted that he didn't know
Speaker 5: that he lost sight of where Rossario actually went. But
Speaker 5: what was not presented at trial was this critical bloodhound
Speaker 5: dog tracking evidence that traced the scent of Michael Allen
Speaker 5: Rosario shortly after the murder up this concrete driveway, and
Speaker 5: instead of to the right, which was the state's theory east,
Speaker 5: the bloodhound tracked hard west to the left, directly to
Speaker 5: the crimes. That was not presented to the jury.
Speaker 1: Right, and so since these and so many more critical
Speaker 1: pieces of evidence, some of which were hidden by the
Speaker 1: prosecution others simply not investigated by Rob's counsel at trial,
Speaker 1: since this evidence was not presented to the jury, and
Speaker 1: since Rosario couldn't possibly have made that distance in eight seconds,
Speaker 1: we know that no human being could. Then, despite all
Speaker 1: other evidence making Rob's guilt impossible under this false narrative,
Speaker 1: Rob was the only one the state was placing at
Speaker 1: the crime scene. And we know in a case like this,
Speaker 1: someone had to answer, someone had to pay for Deputy
Speaker 1: hills murder.
Speaker 2: And that point was.
Speaker 1: Really driven home by what is known as the wall
Speaker 1: of blue. Can you talk about that?
Speaker 3: Sure?
Speaker 5: Absolutely? The Herri's County Sheriff's office put out a bulletin
Speaker 5: for Harris County Sheriff's deputies to appear in uniform at
Speaker 5: Rob's trial, not to offer evidence, but to appear as spectators.
Speaker 5: So imagine if you are such a juror sitting to
Speaker 5: pass judgment on a person whom the District Attorney's office
Speaker 5: believes killed a police officer. To have a wall of
Speaker 5: blue in the trial room, it sends an unmistakable message
Speaker 5: that we know who pulled the trigger. Had nothing to
Speaker 5: do with evidence, everything to do with creating an atmosphere
Speaker 5: of prejudice and intimidush.
Speaker 2: So there you are in the courtroom.
Speaker 1: Still healing from being shot in the hand, a gunshot
Speaker 1: wound that the lack of gunshot residue proves conclusively that
Speaker 1: you could not have inflicted on yourself. The prosecution muddy
Speaker 1: the water around how much time Rosario had to get
Speaker 1: back to the crime scene and shoot Deputy Hill from behind,
Speaker 1: along with a mountain of exculpatory evidence that was either unknown, uninvestigated,
Speaker 1: or most importantly hidden at the time of trial, plus
Speaker 1: the wall of blue. You were sentenced to death. Can
Speaker 1: you tell us about that moment?
Speaker 3: I mean, it was a it's a pronouncement of dead.
Speaker 4: Thinking back, it's just and you feel like you're out
Speaker 4: of time and out of space.
Speaker 3: And this isn't It's like, this can't be happening. This,
Speaker 3: you know, this is not real.
Speaker 1: So you've been locked up since December fourth of two
Speaker 1: thousand and eventually you were sent to death row. What
Speaker 1: have you been doing all this time to occupy your
Speaker 1: time and keep your mind sane?
Speaker 3: Oh Man, I do a lot of reading, yoga, meditation,
Speaker 3: work on art.
Speaker 1: And I encourage our audience to check out some of
Speaker 1: Rob's work. We did a show in New York with
Speaker 1: some of his artwork to support his legal battle. Just
Speaker 1: follow the link in the episode description to check it out.
Speaker 1: Freerbwill dot org is the website free Robwill dot org. Now, Rob,
Speaker 1: when you got here, your son was just barely two
Speaker 1: years old. Have you at least gotten to see him.
Speaker 3: Oh?
Speaker 4: Well, I didn't have a lot of contact with him
Speaker 4: because some of my relatives didn't let me have a
Speaker 4: lot of direct contact with him.
Speaker 3: So I'd write him and hope the letters would get
Speaker 3: to him.
Speaker 4: Some of them did, but we didn't have a lot
Speaker 4: of contact until he got older. He came to see
Speaker 4: me after he turned eighteen, and it's just like, wow, man,
Speaker 4: you know.
Speaker 3: He's like six foot what's you know? I wear a
Speaker 3: size twelve se right, you wear size thirteen. I stand
Speaker 3: up and.
Speaker 2: He's like right here.
Speaker 4: I'm like, oh wow, okay, wow man, you know he's
Speaker 4: almost as tall as me. And it's just he's a man,
Speaker 4: you know, I mean, he's he's a man. I kind
Speaker 4: of emotionally talking about this, you know, it's just like,
Speaker 4: I mean, first time I held my son, I was
Speaker 4: just in tears. I'm not something like burst out in tears.
Speaker 4: I actually just became a grandfather, right, kind of emotional.
Speaker 2: What was the question, man, Well, it was just if
Speaker 2: you get to see him.
Speaker 1: You know, I have kids myself, and the thought of
Speaker 1: not being able to be physically with them.
Speaker 4: There have been times where for some years when I
Speaker 4: first got here, very very very hard. There's people I
Speaker 4: care about out there that I know I could be
Speaker 4: a positive influence in her life while I was out
Speaker 4: there and worrying about that can be disturbing, say used
Speaker 4: to be disturbing, but really, I mean I went through
Speaker 4: period where I did a lot of study in religion
Speaker 4: and psychology and psychoanalysis and yoga and mind body health.
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm like spend weeks and weeks and weeks doing.
Speaker 4: These things, like you know, spend four or five months
Speaker 4: on one yoga post really internalizing the meaning. And one
Speaker 4: of the things that be mindful really teaches you is like, Okay,
Speaker 4: analyze events from perspective of this is not happening to me,
Speaker 4: this is happening in a larger context.
Speaker 3: It's one of the.
Speaker 4: Reasons why I always feel compelled to engage in so
Speaker 4: much criminal justice reform activity.
Speaker 3: Because Okay, it's not about just me.
Speaker 4: It's like I feel compelled to speak out about that
Speaker 4: and to work on criminal justice form, you know.
Speaker 3: What I mean.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you've gotten a paralegal degree well in here, and
Speaker 1: you've been leading and participating in non violent protests. Can
Speaker 1: you talk about that and how you began down this path.
Speaker 4: Oh well, it came about from very d depth study,
Speaker 4: particularly the history of resistance to British imperialism in India.
Speaker 4: And there's a book what is it, one hundred years
Speaker 4: of non violent Struggle. It showed me what it's possible,
Speaker 4: and I thought, well, okay, there are guys here are innocent.
Speaker 4: There are guys here who are on the law parties
Speaker 4: who the state will tell you they've never killed anybody.
Speaker 4: But there's still there's so much bias against criminal defendits
Speaker 4: and prisoners, especially people on death row. I thought, well,
Speaker 4: let's do something different. The idea was to take the
Speaker 4: theories that were practiced in India and during the civil
Speaker 4: rights movement here and engage in non violent direct action
Speaker 4: protests to bring some of the issues that criminal justice reform.
Speaker 3: Movement is pushing on the outside to.
Speaker 4: The forefront, right from the lens of this environment, and
Speaker 4: also to better the conditions here. Okay, So for example,
Speaker 4: I mean director, right, and they come and they handcuff
Speaker 4: us and take us out, and myself and others say no,
Speaker 4: we're not coming out. They say why, I say, well,
Speaker 4: for numerous reasons. One, you have interesting people here too.
Speaker 4: You have an interview of people here, you're trying to
Speaker 4: SQ three. We're in some highly oppressive conditions. And then
Speaker 4: of course they say, well we got something for that,
Speaker 4: and they bring the swat team and they gas you
Speaker 4: run in there and rush you up. And also I
Speaker 4: mean to be feared to have members. Yeah, they're a
Speaker 4: violent prisoners here, but yeah, they react with violence to
Speaker 4: non violence.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've seen those videos. It's hard to believe that
Speaker 2: you actually lived that.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, they hit me with Now, this gas is
Speaker 4: for rare control. It's for like twenty to thirty people.
Speaker 4: You're not even supposed to use this in themself. They
Speaker 4: hit me with it, and that's why, I mean, I
Speaker 4: start convulsing, you know. Yeah, it went on for an
Speaker 4: hour of gasing. I almost died actually, But hey, we're
Speaker 4: sitting here talking about it right now.
Speaker 2: Right, yes we are.
Speaker 1: And I guess your perspective about death might be a
Speaker 1: little different from insight here.
Speaker 2: Do you think about it a lot? Death?
Speaker 3: You know what?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I made myself. I mean I made myself. You
Speaker 4: got to like Mento moy right, But he was an
Speaker 4: interesting thing. And various religious schools and mystic schools they
Speaker 4: have sacred rights of like fake death right, like even
Speaker 4: with Freemasons, they have a symbolic death. Okay, it's mental more,
Speaker 4: remember mortality, right, And I mean you could wallow and
Speaker 4: fear and just be let that break you, which I've
Speaker 4: seen dudes go insane. Or you could say, all right,
Speaker 4: what does that mean understanding death? And the conclusion I've
Speaker 4: come to is like, live life, man, live life, you
Speaker 4: know what I mean?
Speaker 3: This is just beauty everywhere everywhere? Like, how was listened
Speaker 3: to some cold chain John? Just listen to some John Coltrane.
Speaker 4: Man, how can you be sad listening to John Coletrane?
Speaker 4: He's like a mystic sorcerer, you know what I mean?
Speaker 4: And again his perspective, there's a lot of yoga meditation.
Speaker 3: Man.
Speaker 1: Well that sounds like a good formula for survival anywhere,
Speaker 1: including on the outside. Do you allow yourself hope for
Speaker 1: being on the outside again one day?
Speaker 4: Oh man, I've been knocked up almost twenty years. I
Speaker 4: mean I have faith in right, then will be done.
Speaker 4: Someone's gonna make this right.
Speaker 2: So Sammy, how long have you been representing?
Speaker 4: Robin?
Speaker 5: The federal judge here in Texas appointed me in January
Speaker 5: of twenty twelve to take over Rob's case. Judge Ellison
Speaker 5: described a case containing what he called disturbing uncertainties, and
Speaker 5: at that time the federal judge expressed what he called
Speaker 5: his deeply felt concerns about the substantial evidence of actual
Speaker 5: innocence on the part of Rob will errors of grave
Speaker 5: proportion at the initial trial. So that's the situation I
Speaker 5: found myself walking into when this federal judge asked me
Speaker 5: to take over Rob's case. And look from the very
Speaker 5: beginning all the way through the appellate process, what actually
Speaker 5: has happened.
Speaker 1: Can you tell us about the ridiculous state havieous appeal,
Speaker 1: which is of course the round of appeal before you
Speaker 1: were appointed by Judge Allison. Tell us what this appellate
Speaker 1: attorney did and how damaging it was.
Speaker 5: I Will Rob was appointed a lawyer who essentially cut
Speaker 5: and pasted a brief that he had filed in a
Speaker 5: different death penalty case into Rob's brief. So this lawyer
Speaker 5: should have done what any reasonably competent state habeas lawyer
Speaker 5: would do, go back out and reinvestigate the case, look
Speaker 5: at witnesses that should have been called, evidence that wasn't produced,
Speaker 5: carefully analyze what's in the state's file, do the analysis
Speaker 5: of the timeline that we have now done, look at
Speaker 5: the forensic evidence, look at Michael Allen Brosaria, go through
Speaker 5: the police records his statements. You would have uncovered multiple
Speaker 5: lives were Sario made to the police, including denying that
Speaker 5: he'd ever been there, that he even knew rob and
Speaker 5: that he had handled the gun just before the murder.
Speaker 5: Forsario's behavior post murder was deeply suspicious and points to
Speaker 5: consciousness of guilt. For example, he did go back to
Speaker 5: this apartment the morning of the murder. He told a
Speaker 5: witness by the name of Natasha Halien that as he
Speaker 5: was washing his clothes in the kitchen sink of the apartment,
Speaker 5: he made a statement that the blood just came off.
Speaker 5: The DA's office moved the trial court to block that's
Speaker 5: satement from Natasha Haleian from coming into evidence for the
Speaker 5: jury's consideration. That is the evidence that Judge Ellison, in
Speaker 5: the third round of appeals has now pointed to as
Speaker 5: evidence that should have been presented. That's just one example
Speaker 5: of Rosario's suspicious behavior after the murder. These are all
Speaker 5: issues that should have been investigated that we have uncovered
Speaker 5: since twenty twelve.
Speaker 1: So let's just quickly recap some of those issues and
Speaker 1: evidence that we've already mentioned. No gunshot residue on the
Speaker 1: glove or hand that Rob would have needed to shoot
Speaker 1: himself and Deputy Hill. None of Deputy Hill's blood or
Speaker 1: DNA on Rob, which should have been the case since
Speaker 1: Deputy Hill was shot at close range. The analysis of
Speaker 1: the dispatch transcripts and sworn testimony that shows that Rosario
Speaker 1: had plenty of time to return to the scene and
Speaker 1: murder Deputy Hill, the bloodhound tracking evidence that also supports
Speaker 1: Rob's version of events, a slew of witnesses who have
Speaker 1: signed Affidavid's claiming that Rosario admitted to the murder, as
Speaker 1: well as the statement from Natasha Haley and claiming that
Speaker 1: Rosario talked about how the blood just came out of
Speaker 1: the pants as he was watching them in our kitchen sink.
Speaker 1: Then there's all of Rosario's lies to the police, which
Speaker 1: include denying having been there at all, denying even knowing
Speaker 1: Rob Will, and last but not least, denying having ever
Speaker 1: touched the gun, only to admit having handled the gun
Speaker 1: just before the murder. I mean this should be more
Speaker 1: than enough, but there's even more.
Speaker 5: We've uncovered a new witness, David Cruz, who says that
Speaker 5: Michael Allan Rosario confessed to the murder, but that he
Speaker 5: was going to blame Rob Will. And we've uncovered the
Speaker 5: smoking gun. We've discovered police records that show that Michael
Speaker 5: Allen Rosario approached the Texas Syndicate Gang and David Cruz
Speaker 5: to have Rob Will, the only eyewitness to his crime
Speaker 5: killed after the There's nothing more suspicious than trying to
Speaker 5: have someone killed postcrime. The State of Texas knew about
Speaker 5: this document. The District Attorney's office knew about this document,
Speaker 5: but they inexplicably concealed it from Rob's defense team. In fact,
Speaker 5: pre trial, days before the beginning of jury selection, Deputy Strickland,
Speaker 5: who authored this document, represented to the court under oath
Speaker 5: that he had no information relating to Rob Will's case.
Speaker 1: I mean, why would the authorities be seeming to protect
Speaker 1: an individual who, by all appearances, seems to have been
Speaker 1: the actual murder of a police officer.
Speaker 5: Michael Allen Rosario is someone who has been in trouble
Speaker 5: with the law since a very young age, and seemingly
Speaker 5: he has been protected. Rosario before the crime and also
Speaker 5: after he and Rob were arrested, appeared to believe that
Speaker 5: his dad was a shield from prosecution. He made statements toilers,
Speaker 5: in particular Deputy Patricia Shaffani, that he was essentially invincible.
Speaker 5: That too, is another police record or jail record that
Speaker 5: was never disclosed to Rob's defense team.
Speaker 1: Yeall, this is not some fly by night person. This
Speaker 1: is an actual police official who's prepared to come forward
Speaker 1: with this very damning evidence.
Speaker 5: And what we have been fighting for is a new
Speaker 5: trial to present all of the evidence that we have
Speaker 5: uncovered over the last eight years.
Speaker 2: And I understand there's been some progress on that front.
Speaker 5: There has been some movement on that front. After a
Speaker 5: long struggle. On August fifth of twenty twenty, the United
Speaker 5: States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit sent the
Speaker 5: case back to Judge Ellison so he could further explore
Speaker 5: this key exculpatory evidence that was withheld from Rob's trial lawyers.
Speaker 5: In fact, they quote him at in certain parts of
Speaker 5: their opinion that there are disturbing uncertainties, a total absence
Speaker 5: of eyewitness testimony or strongly probative forensic evidence, and considerable
Speaker 5: evidence supporting Will's innocence, and then the Fifth Circuit goes
Speaker 5: on to say that there were disturbing uncertainties of Will's
Speaker 5: culpability even before the introduction of the withheld evidence. Now,
Speaker 5: with the new evidence in hand, the uncertainties are even
Speaker 5: more disturbed. In addition to all of that, the Fifth
Speaker 5: Circuit stated that Rob Will has now demonstrated that it
Speaker 5: is reasonably likely that after hearing the new evidence alongside
Speaker 5: the old evidence, every reasonable juror would have some level
Speaker 5: of reasonable doubt.
Speaker 3: I'm absolutely innocent. This isn't some ridiculous game or anything.
Speaker 4: And I want people to really really realize this, and
Speaker 4: I take the time to look at the evidence, because yes,
Speaker 4: it's about me, but it's about my family and it's
Speaker 4: about the criminal justice system as a whole. You know,
Speaker 4: there are law professors who are like academic commentators who say, well, yeah,
Speaker 4: we probably executed four.
Speaker 3: Or five incent people in Texas. It's not okay. It's
Speaker 3: not okay.
Speaker 4: It is not okay, it is not okay at all.
Speaker 1: Well, Rob, you're definitely appreciation of the choir here. I
Speaker 1: can't even count the number of times I've said this
Speaker 1: while arguing against people who believe in the death penalty.
Speaker 1: I mean, how many innocent people is it okay to execute? Like,
Speaker 1: do you know any other innocent guys that are in
Speaker 1: there with you right now?
Speaker 3: Well, I'll tell you this.
Speaker 4: When I first got here, I thought I was the
Speaker 4: only one, right, But then it's like, oh wow, another
Speaker 4: guy generted, Oh wow, ah, another exoneration is just like
Speaker 4: it's just ridiculous, you know.
Speaker 3: What I mean.
Speaker 4: I think maybe one of the things is like I
Speaker 4: read so much and I study so much. I think
Speaker 4: I've always kind of been like that. But it's a
Speaker 4: compulsion to understand society and understand the system and understand more.
Speaker 3: Of the intricacies of life. And also I feel feel
Speaker 3: deepropulsion to really let people understand the system man, and
Speaker 3: understand how it truly works. And one of.
Speaker 4: The reasons why I fight so hard is because I
Speaker 4: have a vision of doing the type of works Anthony
Speaker 4: Graves has done since he's been released.
Speaker 3: Anthony Graves was a really good dude.
Speaker 4: He was generated here five six years ago, and he
Speaker 4: is like a shining example of what the foreign incarcerated,
Speaker 4: especially those who are exonerated.
Speaker 2: Should be well.
Speaker 1: Rob even if you're not out yet you have already
Speaker 1: showing yourself to be that shining example through your artwork,
Speaker 1: through your spirit, through what you've been able to accomplish
Speaker 1: from behind bars, not only in the realm of criminal
Speaker 1: justice and prison reform, but also in just the man
Speaker 1: that you have become against all odds.
Speaker 2: So thank you so much for talking to me today.
Speaker 3: Thank you.
Speaker 1: We're not here for any reason other than to try
Speaker 1: to have the truth come out, not just for Rob
Speaker 1: and for his family, but also for the family of
Speaker 1: the murdered officer and for his memory. It was a
Speaker 1: senseless crime that never should have happened, but Rob didn't
Speaker 1: do it and he shouldn't be in prison for it.
Speaker 1: We're going to need all the support we can get
Speaker 1: from anyone and everyone who could lend their voice to
Speaker 1: this issue. So if you haven't done so already, please
Speaker 1: check out the Rolling Stone article about this case and
Speaker 1: go to Freerobwill dot org to learn more. You can
Speaker 1: also sign a petition for a new trial for Rob
Speaker 1: at change dot org. All of these action steps will
Speaker 1: be linked in the episode bio, so just scroll down,
Speaker 1: learn more and get involved.
Speaker 2: And Sammy, we.
Speaker 1: Have a feature of this show that has come to
Speaker 1: be my favorite part of the show, and I think
Speaker 1: a lot of the audience shares my feelings on it. It's
Speaker 1: a segment we call closing arguments, and basically it's just
Speaker 1: where I get to once again thank you for being here,
Speaker 1: and then turn my microphone off and just kick back,
Speaker 1: close my eyes and listen to you with any closing
Speaker 1: thoughts that you want to share.
Speaker 5: Well, Jason, thank you again. Thank you for your commitment
Speaker 5: to criminal justice reform, your interest in the death penalty
Speaker 5: and reforming and hopefully one day abolishing the death penalty.
Speaker 5: And thank you in particular for your interest in Rob's case,
Speaker 5: Doctor Phil He deserves a lot of credit. These are
Speaker 5: not easy cases. We have a slang police officer and
Speaker 5: people don't want to be associated with that. But what
Speaker 5: we need is is for the truth to come out.
Speaker 5: All we're asking, if you're gonna seek the death penalty
Speaker 5: against someone, let's make it a fair fight. Don't hide evidence,
Speaker 5: don't conceal evidence. Live up to your obligations you have
Speaker 5: to under the Constitution, under the Supreme Courts nineteen sixty
Speaker 5: three case Brady versus Maryland, turnover disclose to the defense
Speaker 5: favorable evidence. Why if you don't innocent people like Rob
Speaker 5: end up on death row. So we need another trial
Speaker 5: where the jury hears the whole story, not just half
Speaker 5: of the story. We need another trial where the DA's
Speaker 5: office lives up to its constitutional and ethical obligations to
Speaker 5: turn over favorable evidence before the trial, not thirteen fourteen
Speaker 5: years afterwards, when the appellate process is so restrictive in
Speaker 5: terms of what judge can do. We need to get
Speaker 5: a new trial that's fair, that's just where the DA's
Speaker 5: office placed by the rules, where they don't hide or
Speaker 5: conceal that. Thank you, Joseon Rob.
Speaker 3: I think that people need to understand that I truly
Speaker 3: am innocent in my case. Yes, it's about me and
Speaker 3: my family, but it's also about the criminal justice system
Speaker 3: as a whole. And everybody needs to realize the truth
Speaker 3: of the evidence in my case and also understand that
Speaker 3: it should be a microscope.
Speaker 4: With which to examine the intricacies of the criminal justice system.
Speaker 4: And I hope people will feel compelled to get involved
Speaker 4: in criminal justice reform.
Speaker 6: Oh, everybody, go on the internet and google John Coltrane interview,
Speaker 6: Go listen to Love Supreme, listen to John Cole train Man, and.
Speaker 3: You're gonna be happy, huh.
Speaker 1: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you
Speaker 1: get your podcasts.
Speaker 2: It really helps.
Speaker 1: And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence Project and
Speaker 1: I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very
Speaker 1: important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions before
Speaker 1: they happen. Go to Innocence Project dot org to learn
Speaker 1: how to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank
Speaker 1: our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music
Speaker 1: in the show is by three time OSCAR nominated.
Speaker 2: Composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to.
Speaker 1: Follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook
Speaker 1: at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flahm is
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