WEBVTT - #179 Jason Flom with Rob Will 0:00:03.560 --> 0:00:07.000 Around six am on December fourth, two thousand, Rob Will 0:00:07.080 --> 0:00:10.719 and a Houston CoP's son, Michael Alan Rosario, were stripping 0:00:10.760 --> 0:00:14.760 hubcaps in North Houston when two Harris County deputies rolled up, 0:00:15.040 --> 0:00:19.040 and they gave chase through a nearby apartment complex. Deputy 0:00:19.120 --> 0:00:23.640 Hill followed Rob and Deputy Kelly chased Rosario. Just around 0:00:23.720 --> 0:00:26.239 the time the Deputy Hill radioed in that he had 0:00:26.360 --> 0:00:30.360 Rob in custody. Deputy Kelly lost sight of Rosario, and 0:00:30.400 --> 0:00:33.880 then about a minute later, Deputy Kelly heard gunshots coming 0:00:33.880 --> 0:00:37.080 from a little over one hundred yards away. Michael Alan 0:00:37.159 --> 0:00:41.040 Rosario had shot and killed Deputy Hill, and Rosario also 0:00:41.159 --> 0:00:44.720 shot Rob Will's left hand and freed him from his cuffs. 0:00:45.200 --> 0:00:49.320 Rob and Rosario separately fled the scene. Rob boosted a car, 0:00:49.520 --> 0:00:52.080 only to be pulled over and arrested peacefully about an 0:00:52.159 --> 0:00:56.680 hour northwest of Houston. Meanwhile, Michael Alan Rosario fled to 0:00:56.800 --> 0:00:59.120 Rob's girlfriend's apartment, where he is said to have had 0:00:59.160 --> 0:01:01.720 blood on his clothes and washed up in the sink. 0:01:02.920 --> 0:01:06.120 At trial, the prosecution muddied the details about how much 0:01:06.120 --> 0:01:08.520 time Rosario had had to return to the scene and 0:01:08.640 --> 0:01:11.679 murder Deputy Hill, which would have made Rob the only 0:01:11.800 --> 0:01:15.440 possible culprit at the scene, despite the physical evidence of 0:01:15.440 --> 0:01:19.080 the contrary. Rob was convicted of capital murder and sentenced 0:01:19.120 --> 0:01:22.759 to death. One of Rob's appellate attorneys, Sammy Khalil, tells 0:01:22.800 --> 0:01:25.600 me now about the evidence that Dave uncovered, as well 0:01:25.640 --> 0:01:29.679 as the progress in Rob's fight for freedom. This is 0:01:29.720 --> 0:01:45.720 Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction 0:01:45.800 --> 0:01:46.640 with Jason Flamm. 0:01:46.720 --> 0:01:47.080 That's me. 0:01:47.240 --> 0:01:49.560 I'm your host, and today we're going to discuss a 0:01:49.640 --> 0:01:51.840 case that has been a passion of mine for a 0:01:51.920 --> 0:01:56.000 long time, the case of Robert Jean. Will will be 0:01:56.120 --> 0:02:00.560 joined by his highly esteemed appellate attorney, Sammy Khalil. But first, 0:02:00.800 --> 0:02:02.880 let me take you back to Death Row in Texas, 0:02:03.160 --> 0:02:05.559 the Polunsky Unit, where I had a chance to speak 0:02:05.720 --> 0:02:09.400 with Rob in person. Hey, Rob, thanks for sharing your 0:02:09.440 --> 0:02:10.120 story with us. 0:02:10.360 --> 0:02:10.680 Thank you. 0:02:11.080 --> 0:02:15.040 So let's go back to way before all of this happened. 0:02:15.280 --> 0:02:18.079 Tell us about you as a child. 0:02:17.880 --> 0:02:20.960 Oh man, kind of a quiet type of child who'd 0:02:20.960 --> 0:02:21.480 like to read lot. 0:02:21.960 --> 0:02:23.720 And how was it growing up, I mean, how was 0:02:23.800 --> 0:02:24.560 your home life? 0:02:25.600 --> 0:02:26.880 Kind of grew up around. 0:02:28.600 --> 0:02:30.440 I mean, you know, my dad was murdered I mean 0:02:30.480 --> 0:02:33.320 he'd been in and out of prison before he's murdered. 0:02:34.280 --> 0:02:36.240 Yeah, he's really just not good. 0:02:36.919 --> 0:02:39.840 So just before all of this happened, what were you 0:02:40.000 --> 0:02:41.160 doing with your life? 0:02:41.639 --> 0:02:45.960 I was going into my seventy year college for child psychology, 0:02:46.240 --> 0:02:47.880 and I was taking care of my son. 0:02:48.120 --> 0:02:49.680 That was one of my main folks to take care 0:02:49.720 --> 0:02:51.680 of my son and his half brother. 0:02:52.400 --> 0:02:54.320 One of the reason I went to school college for 0:02:54.480 --> 0:02:57.919 child psychology because I was like, Okay, I grew up. 0:02:57.880 --> 0:03:02.359 In evangelical CHRISTI in southern takes some household. 0:03:03.240 --> 0:03:06.160 You didn't talk about problems, you didn't talk about emotion, 0:03:06.280 --> 0:03:09.399 you didn't talk about issues. Now, I remember just never 0:03:09.560 --> 0:03:11.480 having anyone to talk to, Like even after my dad 0:03:11.560 --> 0:03:13.960 was murdered, I didn't. I didn't ever talk to anyone 0:03:14.080 --> 0:03:17.920 at all about it. And getting older, you kind of 0:03:17.919 --> 0:03:22.119 realize how bad it is. And I wanted to get 0:03:22.120 --> 0:03:24.960 a green child psychologist. Okay, I could help children who 0:03:25.000 --> 0:03:28.200 didn't have anyone to talk to, right, And I always 0:03:28.200 --> 0:03:30.520 told myself, I'm going to be there for my son. 0:03:31.040 --> 0:03:34.880 And how old was your son when this tragedy happened. 0:03:35.520 --> 0:03:37.000 He was less than a year old. 0:03:37.480 --> 0:03:40.120 Yeah, I was very active father though I mean, I 0:03:40.160 --> 0:03:43.160 took care of him, changed his diapers, bathe him like 0:03:43.880 --> 0:03:44.760 our society should. 0:03:44.840 --> 0:03:47.960 But I don't. I took care of his half brother. 0:03:48.120 --> 0:03:49.880 It was five four or five. 0:03:50.680 --> 0:03:53.400 So you were going to school, being a good dad. 0:03:53.480 --> 0:03:57.760 But you were also involved with some not so great people. 0:03:57.840 --> 0:04:00.560 I mean, in fact, you were scared bring up some 0:04:00.600 --> 0:04:03.760 extra cash by stripping hobcaps in North Houston with the 0:04:03.760 --> 0:04:07.560 son of an Houston cop named Michael Allan Rosario on 0:04:07.640 --> 0:04:11.000 the morning that Harris County Deputy Barrett Hill was murdered. 0:04:11.160 --> 0:04:14.840 Okay, I was doing student stuff, hanging on idiot people, 0:04:15.400 --> 0:04:19.040 even on a commit this murder. No, I'm responsible for 0:04:20.440 --> 0:04:24.640 engaging in activity I should have known, could have lived 0:04:24.680 --> 0:04:27.240 the bad things. Then I'd be taken away from my son. 0:04:31.720 --> 0:04:32.800 Today we have with us. 0:04:32.839 --> 0:04:36.800 Sammy Khalil Now Sammy is a former assistant Federal Public Defender, 0:04:36.839 --> 0:04:39.600 and he's also a member of the Federal Bar Association, 0:04:39.760 --> 0:04:43.000 the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers, the Harris County 0:04:43.080 --> 0:04:46.719 Criminal Lawyers Association. He's also a fellow of the Texas 0:04:46.720 --> 0:04:50.440 Bar Foundation, a board member of the Texas Defenders Service, 0:04:50.960 --> 0:04:53.200 and of course for quite some time now, you've been 0:04:53.240 --> 0:04:56.400 a part of the legal team including Jay Hewart and 0:04:56.480 --> 0:04:59.800 Karen Otto from Arnold and Porter and to local Houston 0:04:59.839 --> 0:05:03.560 A Joorney's Chad Flores and Oudam Dennell, and they're all 0:05:03.600 --> 0:05:06.960 working together to have the truth come out and free 0:05:07.040 --> 0:05:11.720 Rob Will. So, Sammy, welcome to Ronfuel Conviction. Thank you, Jason, 0:05:12.120 --> 0:05:14.600 and you and I have had the opportunity to spend 0:05:14.680 --> 0:05:17.760 some time together. Of course we were on Doctor Phil's 0:05:17.760 --> 0:05:21.720 show together talking about this very case, and of course 0:05:21.920 --> 0:05:26.200 it starts with Rob Will's unbelievably tragic childhood where he 0:05:26.320 --> 0:05:28.160 was abused terribly. 0:05:28.800 --> 0:05:31.480 His father was murdered when he was ten, right. 0:05:31.560 --> 0:05:32.080 That's right. 0:05:32.400 --> 0:05:33.960 He was in and out of trouble as a kid. 0:05:34.560 --> 0:05:38.000 This happened when he was twenty one. He was arrested 0:05:38.120 --> 0:05:42.480 in December two thousand and has been on death row 0:05:42.640 --> 0:05:46.920 essentially for the last two decades. What we know happened 0:05:47.320 --> 0:05:51.760 Rob and Rocky Michael Allen Rsario's nickname. We're stripping down 0:05:52.080 --> 0:05:55.719 like the hubcaps of a park vehicle in an apartment 0:05:55.839 --> 0:06:01.479 complex in North Houston, six am, December fourth, barely rising, 0:06:01.800 --> 0:06:06.480 and a patrol vehicle arrives at the scene. Deputy Michael 0:06:06.560 --> 0:06:10.719 Kelly was in that patrol vehicle and also Deputy Barrett Hill. 0:06:11.080 --> 0:06:17.479 When they arrive, Rob and Rosario run behind several units 0:06:17.600 --> 0:06:20.360 of the apartment complex. There's kind of like a grassy 0:06:20.440 --> 0:06:25.920 alley way. They are chased. Deputy Hill follows Rob, Deputy 0:06:26.000 --> 0:06:31.360 Kelly follows Rosario. Now Rob takes a hard left through 0:06:31.720 --> 0:06:35.960 an opening between two apartment units. Rocky does the same 0:06:36.120 --> 0:06:39.760 thing but at the next opening, and they both proceed 0:06:39.800 --> 0:06:43.640 in the same direction on either side of this apartment unit. 0:06:44.000 --> 0:06:47.839 They both cross the street. About twenty seconds later, the 0:06:47.920 --> 0:06:52.880 dispatch tates show that Deputy Hill had Rob in custody. 0:06:53.240 --> 0:06:57.080 He radios into the dispatch center saying, I have one 0:06:57.240 --> 0:07:03.560 in custody. It's undisputed that that person in custody is Rob. Meanwhile, 0:07:03.839 --> 0:07:09.240 Rosario continues down a concrete, kind of overgrown driveway in 0:07:09.360 --> 0:07:12.120 this field that's on the other side of the street 0:07:12.160 --> 0:07:16.320 that they both crossed, and Deputy Kelly he admitted that 0:07:16.400 --> 0:07:20.400 he lost sight of Rosario at some point after Rosario 0:07:20.640 --> 0:07:26.400 entered the concrete driveway, and we believe after Rob was 0:07:26.440 --> 0:07:30.800 placed in custody by Deputy Hill, that Michael Allen Rosario 0:07:31.280 --> 0:07:34.880 reached the end of that overgone driveway took a left 0:07:35.120 --> 0:07:39.800 and proceeded back to the area where Rob was handcuffed 0:07:39.840 --> 0:07:45.160 and in custody and murdered. Deputy Hill freed Rob of 0:07:45.240 --> 0:07:47.560 the handcuffs and they both. 0:07:47.320 --> 0:07:50.360 Fled, And we know that Rob was shot in the 0:07:50.400 --> 0:07:51.760 process in his left hand. 0:07:52.080 --> 0:07:55.400 There's no question about that. Rob's third and fourth knuckle, 0:07:55.520 --> 0:07:58.480 maybe the fourth and fifth knuckle of his left hand, 0:07:58.840 --> 0:08:01.080 was essentially blown off. 0:08:01.680 --> 0:08:05.480 Immediately after the tragic, senseless murder of Deputy Hill, Rosario 0:08:05.560 --> 0:08:08.480 went to Rob's girlfriend's home, where he washed his clothes. 0:08:08.840 --> 0:08:12.240 He'd later removed names and numbers from his address book. 0:08:12.320 --> 0:08:12.920 I mean, come on. 0:08:13.200 --> 0:08:16.440 He went on to confess to no less than five 0:08:16.680 --> 0:08:20.200 separate people, who later all every one of them signed 0:08:20.200 --> 0:08:23.440 a sworn affidavit. And it gets worse from there. When 0:08:23.520 --> 0:08:26.240 Rosario's family was asked to produce the clothes he had 0:08:26.240 --> 0:08:28.680 been wearing on the morning of the crime, The clothes 0:08:28.680 --> 0:08:33.920 had been washed, bleached, and neatly folded. These are not 0:08:34.240 --> 0:08:38.000 the actions we typically would associate with someone who is innocent. 0:08:38.600 --> 0:08:40.920 So back to the morning of the murder, Rob boosted 0:08:40.920 --> 0:08:43.679 a car to get away. Now, obviously that's illegal, and 0:08:43.720 --> 0:08:46.600 he doesn't dispute that, but it doesn't make him a murderer. 0:08:46.679 --> 0:08:47.679 In fact, when he. 0:08:47.679 --> 0:08:50.880 Was pulled over about an hour northwest of Houston in Brenham, Texas, 0:08:51.080 --> 0:08:54.720 he was compliant and peaceful toward the arresting officers. 0:08:55.880 --> 0:09:00.080 The prosecutor was a creageous narrative, like, you know, oh, 0:09:00.120 --> 0:09:02.120 we acted afterwards, right, but they don't even want to 0:09:02.120 --> 0:09:02.839 talk about. 0:09:03.120 --> 0:09:05.120 The actual physical evidence. In my case, I think that's 0:09:05.240 --> 0:09:05.840 very important. 0:09:06.120 --> 0:09:09.000 How did you act afterward? 0:09:08.040 --> 0:09:12.480 I ran away? I mean I saw someone get killed. Yeah, 0:09:12.520 --> 0:09:13.800 I'm running away. 0:09:13.960 --> 0:09:16.040 So you're pulled over and arrested. 0:09:16.240 --> 0:09:19.160 They treat your wounded left hand, They bag your hands 0:09:19.160 --> 0:09:21.719 and gloves to be tested for gunshot residue. 0:09:21.920 --> 0:09:23.080 What was going through your mind? 0:09:23.760 --> 0:09:26.120 I was pretty much in a state of trauma, right, 0:09:26.360 --> 0:09:30.400 you know, very very deserving. I didn't give any statement 0:09:30.480 --> 0:09:33.160 to police things. You know, they kept trying to get me. 0:09:33.200 --> 0:09:37.200 To talk about what happened, and you know who was 0:09:37.240 --> 0:09:39.480 with me, and I just didn't give any statement. 0:09:39.840 --> 0:09:41.440 How long were you in jail before trial? 0:09:42.120 --> 0:09:43.080 About a year? In a month? 0:09:43.679 --> 0:09:46.600 I mean, Rob, you knew you hadn't killed that Buby Hill. 0:09:47.120 --> 0:09:50.319 But at the time, did you really think everything was 0:09:50.360 --> 0:09:51.360 going to work itself out? 0:09:51.920 --> 0:09:54.559 You want to think that the system is righteous, the 0:09:54.600 --> 0:09:57.320 system is honorable, those and people in positions of power 0:09:57.800 --> 0:09:58.920 are going to do the right thing. 0:09:59.000 --> 0:10:01.840 I mean, I didn't underst saying anything about the system 0:10:01.840 --> 0:10:04.640 as a whole. I wasn't familiar with criminal justice before 0:10:04.640 --> 0:10:06.880 a movement at the time. I didn't understand the problems. 0:10:07.600 --> 0:10:09.880 They didn't turn over some of the main physical evidence 0:10:09.880 --> 0:10:12.480 in my case. They waited a year and month until 0:10:12.720 --> 0:10:16.560 the day before trial and just take a look at 0:10:16.559 --> 0:10:19.760 the physical evidence. I mean, just like, some of the things. 0:10:19.559 --> 0:10:23.640 Are so ridiculous. It's just obvious and self evident. 0:10:24.120 --> 0:10:27.480 So let's talk about the physical evidence available at trial. 0:10:29.160 --> 0:10:32.760 None of Deputy hillsblood was found on Rob or his clothing, 0:10:32.920 --> 0:10:36.160 the same clothing from the scene that he was arrested in. 0:10:36.559 --> 0:10:39.800 When Rob was arrested, his wounded left hand was treated, 0:10:39.840 --> 0:10:42.440 and his gloves and hands were bagged to be tested 0:10:42.440 --> 0:10:45.640 for gunshot residue. Now that's per Josh Dubin's junk Science 0:10:45.640 --> 0:10:49.640 episode about gunshot residue, which I strongly recommend, one cannot 0:10:49.720 --> 0:10:52.880 conclude that the presence of antimony or barium or other 0:10:52.960 --> 0:10:56.680 elements associated with gunshot residue directly mean that a gun 0:10:56.760 --> 0:11:00.000 was fired or not. It just means that those elements 0:11:00.080 --> 0:11:03.080 are present, but the source really cannot be determined. It 0:11:03.120 --> 0:11:06.679 could be cigarette ash and certain mechanical equipment, even dried urine, 0:11:06.720 --> 0:11:09.959 as well as gunshots. Of course, those things and others 0:11:10.000 --> 0:11:13.880 can all be a potential source of some of these elements. However, 0:11:14.240 --> 0:11:16.400 if none of those elements are found at all out 0:11:16.400 --> 0:11:19.120 of suspect's hands or gloves, it can be said with 0:11:19.400 --> 0:11:22.440 certainty that a gun had not been fired by that 0:11:22.480 --> 0:11:23.200 person's hand. 0:11:24.000 --> 0:11:27.840 It appears to be the state's theory, was the state's 0:11:27.920 --> 0:11:31.520 theory at the time of trial, that Rob had this 0:11:31.720 --> 0:11:38.040 firearm before the murder, somehow, after being handcuffed or in 0:11:38.080 --> 0:11:43.599 the process of being handcuffed, shot himself handcuffed, injured himself, 0:11:44.200 --> 0:11:50.840 and somehow miraculously freed himself of these handcuffs. The problem 0:11:51.080 --> 0:11:55.400 with that theory is that no gunshot residue was ever 0:11:55.960 --> 0:11:59.640 found on Rob's right hand at all. 0:12:00.400 --> 0:12:02.959 So without gunshot residue on the right hand glove or 0:12:03.000 --> 0:12:05.280 his right hand, the one he would have needed to 0:12:05.320 --> 0:12:08.520 shoot his own left hand, obviously, it can be said 0:12:08.559 --> 0:12:11.720 with certainty that he had not fired the gun at all. 0:12:12.360 --> 0:12:15.360 Deputy Hill had not even unholstered his gun, let alone 0:12:15.360 --> 0:12:18.480 fired it, So someone else was at that crime scene 0:12:18.520 --> 0:12:22.600 firing a gun. The ballistics evidence showed that Deputy Hill 0:12:22.600 --> 0:12:25.120 had been shot as close as eight inches away. Had 0:12:25.200 --> 0:12:27.760 Rob shot Deputy Hill from that range, Rob would have 0:12:27.760 --> 0:12:31.840 been covered in Deputy Hill's blood. This was not the case. 0:12:32.320 --> 0:12:35.240 Rob did not have a speck of Deputy Hill's blood 0:12:35.240 --> 0:12:39.040 on him, So obviously someone did shoot Deputy Hill. But 0:12:39.160 --> 0:12:42.320 all evidence points away from Rob and towards Rosario, who, 0:12:42.360 --> 0:12:45.960 by eyewitness accounts, had washed blood off of his clothing 0:12:46.120 --> 0:12:50.760 in Rob's girlfriend's sink. So how in the world did 0:12:50.800 --> 0:12:54.560 the prosecution pin this on Rob? What else did they present? 0:12:55.000 --> 0:12:59.640 The dispatch records are critical. The state said that we're 0:12:59.679 --> 0:13:03.880 so based on its analysis of the dispatch records, only 0:13:04.000 --> 0:13:09.240 had about eight seconds to cover about three hundred feet 0:13:09.400 --> 0:13:13.040 one hundred yards, call it almost a football field. The 0:13:13.080 --> 0:13:17.559 state's position was that Rosario is not an Olympic athlete, 0:13:17.800 --> 0:13:21.200 that he can't cover that distance about three hundred feet 0:13:21.480 --> 0:13:26.200 in eight seconds. But in fact, a careful review and 0:13:26.280 --> 0:13:31.640 analysis of the testimony at trial, matched with the dispatch 0:13:31.720 --> 0:13:35.640 records that were presented at trial, show that Rossario had 0:13:35.679 --> 0:13:40.760 at least anywhere from forty four seconds to a minute 0:13:40.840 --> 0:13:44.480 twenty six seconds in between to reach the scene of 0:13:44.520 --> 0:13:49.000 the crime. So that was not articulated well at trial. 0:13:49.240 --> 0:13:53.240 And what's critical is that Deputy Kelly in the state 0:13:53.440 --> 0:13:58.160 suggested that Rosario went right went east at the end 0:13:58.240 --> 0:14:03.079 of that driveway, although Kelly has since walked back those 0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:07.440 initial intimations and at trial admitted that he didn't know 0:14:07.960 --> 0:14:11.160 that he lost sight of where Rossario actually went. But 0:14:11.200 --> 0:14:16.240 what was not presented at trial was this critical bloodhound 0:14:17.000 --> 0:14:21.840 dog tracking evidence that traced the scent of Michael Allen 0:14:21.920 --> 0:14:28.480 Rosario shortly after the murder up this concrete driveway, and 0:14:28.600 --> 0:14:32.080 instead of to the right, which was the state's theory east, 0:14:32.680 --> 0:14:38.360 the bloodhound tracked hard west to the left, directly to 0:14:38.480 --> 0:14:41.640 the crimes. That was not presented to the jury. 0:14:41.800 --> 0:14:45.120 Right, and so since these and so many more critical 0:14:45.160 --> 0:14:47.520 pieces of evidence, some of which were hidden by the 0:14:47.520 --> 0:14:51.840 prosecution others simply not investigated by Rob's counsel at trial, 0:14:52.440 --> 0:14:54.880 since this evidence was not presented to the jury, and 0:14:55.000 --> 0:14:58.880 since Rosario couldn't possibly have made that distance in eight seconds, 0:14:59.040 --> 0:15:02.440 we know that no human being could. Then, despite all 0:15:02.560 --> 0:15:07.280 other evidence making Rob's guilt impossible under this false narrative, 0:15:07.480 --> 0:15:09.920 Rob was the only one the state was placing at 0:15:09.920 --> 0:15:12.560 the crime scene. And we know in a case like this, 0:15:12.760 --> 0:15:15.640 someone had to answer, someone had to pay for Deputy 0:15:15.720 --> 0:15:16.400 hills murder. 0:15:16.480 --> 0:15:17.440 And that point was. 0:15:17.440 --> 0:15:20.000 Really driven home by what is known as the wall 0:15:20.120 --> 0:15:22.160 of blue. Can you talk about that? 0:15:22.480 --> 0:15:22.760 Sure? 0:15:22.800 --> 0:15:26.600 Absolutely? The Herri's County Sheriff's office put out a bulletin 0:15:26.960 --> 0:15:32.520 for Harris County Sheriff's deputies to appear in uniform at 0:15:32.640 --> 0:15:38.200 Rob's trial, not to offer evidence, but to appear as spectators. 0:15:38.560 --> 0:15:42.120 So imagine if you are such a juror sitting to 0:15:42.280 --> 0:15:47.000 pass judgment on a person whom the District Attorney's office 0:15:47.040 --> 0:15:51.760 believes killed a police officer. To have a wall of 0:15:51.840 --> 0:15:56.240 blue in the trial room, it sends an unmistakable message 0:15:56.680 --> 0:15:59.800 that we know who pulled the trigger. Had nothing to 0:15:59.840 --> 0:16:04.360 do with evidence, everything to do with creating an atmosphere 0:16:04.840 --> 0:16:18.880 of prejudice and intimidush. 0:16:18.920 --> 0:16:20.840 So there you are in the courtroom. 0:16:20.400 --> 0:16:22.880 Still healing from being shot in the hand, a gunshot 0:16:22.920 --> 0:16:26.600 wound that the lack of gunshot residue proves conclusively that 0:16:26.640 --> 0:16:29.800 you could not have inflicted on yourself. The prosecution muddy 0:16:29.840 --> 0:16:32.720 the water around how much time Rosario had to get 0:16:32.760 --> 0:16:35.680 back to the crime scene and shoot Deputy Hill from behind, 0:16:35.800 --> 0:16:41.160 along with a mountain of exculpatory evidence that was either unknown, uninvestigated, 0:16:41.280 --> 0:16:44.600 or most importantly hidden at the time of trial, plus 0:16:44.640 --> 0:16:48.240 the wall of blue. You were sentenced to death. Can 0:16:48.280 --> 0:16:49.800 you tell us about that moment? 0:16:51.640 --> 0:16:53.880 I mean, it was a it's a pronouncement of dead. 0:16:54.400 --> 0:16:57.800 Thinking back, it's just and you feel like you're out 0:16:57.800 --> 0:16:59.480 of time and out of space. 0:16:59.200 --> 0:17:02.160 And this isn't It's like, this can't be happening. This, 0:17:02.640 --> 0:17:03.680 you know, this is not real. 0:17:04.760 --> 0:17:08.040 So you've been locked up since December fourth of two 0:17:08.119 --> 0:17:11.639 thousand and eventually you were sent to death row. What 0:17:11.760 --> 0:17:14.800 have you been doing all this time to occupy your 0:17:14.840 --> 0:17:16.800 time and keep your mind sane? 0:17:17.400 --> 0:17:19.960 Oh Man, I do a lot of reading, yoga, meditation, 0:17:20.760 --> 0:17:21.600 work on art. 0:17:22.520 --> 0:17:24.800 And I encourage our audience to check out some of 0:17:24.880 --> 0:17:27.359 Rob's work. We did a show in New York with 0:17:27.440 --> 0:17:29.600 some of his artwork to support his legal battle. Just 0:17:29.600 --> 0:17:32.240 follow the link in the episode description to check it out. 0:17:32.560 --> 0:17:36.840 Freerbwill dot org is the website free Robwill dot org. Now, Rob, 0:17:36.880 --> 0:17:40.080 when you got here, your son was just barely two 0:17:40.160 --> 0:17:42.520 years old. Have you at least gotten to see him. 0:17:43.520 --> 0:17:43.920 Oh? 0:17:43.960 --> 0:17:46.880 Well, I didn't have a lot of contact with him 0:17:47.119 --> 0:17:49.919 because some of my relatives didn't let me have a 0:17:49.920 --> 0:17:51.240 lot of direct contact with him. 0:17:51.240 --> 0:17:53.679 So I'd write him and hope the letters would get 0:17:53.680 --> 0:17:53.960 to him. 0:17:54.000 --> 0:17:56.280 Some of them did, but we didn't have a lot 0:17:56.320 --> 0:17:59.040 of contact until he got older. He came to see 0:17:59.080 --> 0:18:02.640 me after he turned eighteen, and it's just like, wow, man, 0:18:02.840 --> 0:18:03.080 you know. 0:18:03.040 --> 0:18:07.000 He's like six foot what's you know? I wear a 0:18:07.000 --> 0:18:10.200 size twelve se right, you wear size thirteen. I stand 0:18:10.280 --> 0:18:10.720 up and. 0:18:10.760 --> 0:18:11.639 He's like right here. 0:18:12.160 --> 0:18:14.679 I'm like, oh wow, okay, wow man, you know he's 0:18:14.680 --> 0:18:17.760 almost as tall as me. And it's just he's a man, 0:18:17.800 --> 0:18:23.360 you know, I mean, he's he's a man. I kind 0:18:23.400 --> 0:18:25.600 of emotionally talking about this, you know, it's just like, 0:18:26.400 --> 0:18:28.760 I mean, first time I held my son, I was 0:18:28.800 --> 0:18:31.440 just in tears. I'm not something like burst out in tears. 0:18:31.920 --> 0:18:34.919 I actually just became a grandfather, right, kind of emotional. 0:18:34.960 --> 0:18:37.640 What was the question, man, Well, it was just if 0:18:37.680 --> 0:18:38.600 you get to see him. 0:18:38.720 --> 0:18:40.960 You know, I have kids myself, and the thought of 0:18:41.080 --> 0:18:43.760 not being able to be physically with them. 0:18:44.480 --> 0:18:48.119 There have been times where for some years when I 0:18:48.119 --> 0:18:51.000 first got here, very very very hard. There's people I 0:18:51.040 --> 0:18:53.080 care about out there that I know I could be 0:18:53.160 --> 0:18:55.040 a positive influence in her life while I was out 0:18:55.080 --> 0:19:00.240 there and worrying about that can be disturbing, say used 0:19:00.240 --> 0:19:04.360 to be disturbing, but really, I mean I went through 0:19:04.480 --> 0:19:08.040 period where I did a lot of study in religion 0:19:09.160 --> 0:19:13.720 and psychology and psychoanalysis and yoga and mind body health. 0:19:14.440 --> 0:19:17.280 I mean, I'm like spend weeks and weeks and weeks doing. 0:19:17.080 --> 0:19:19.680 These things, like you know, spend four or five months 0:19:19.680 --> 0:19:23.960 on one yoga post really internalizing the meaning. And one 0:19:24.000 --> 0:19:29.040 of the things that be mindful really teaches you is like, Okay, 0:19:29.320 --> 0:19:34.240 analyze events from perspective of this is not happening to me, 0:19:35.000 --> 0:19:37.360 this is happening in a larger context. 0:19:37.600 --> 0:19:38.080 It's one of the. 0:19:38.080 --> 0:19:40.320 Reasons why I always feel compelled to engage in so 0:19:40.400 --> 0:19:42.480 much criminal justice reform activity. 0:19:42.040 --> 0:19:44.240 Because Okay, it's not about just me. 0:19:44.800 --> 0:19:47.560 It's like I feel compelled to speak out about that 0:19:47.720 --> 0:19:50.560 and to work on criminal justice form, you know. 0:19:50.560 --> 0:19:50.920 What I mean. 0:19:51.680 --> 0:19:54.159 Yeah, you've gotten a paralegal degree well in here, and 0:19:54.200 --> 0:19:57.360 you've been leading and participating in non violent protests. Can 0:19:57.400 --> 0:19:59.880 you talk about that and how you began down this path. 0:20:00.480 --> 0:20:03.919 Oh well, it came about from very d depth study, 0:20:04.000 --> 0:20:08.359 particularly the history of resistance to British imperialism in India. 0:20:08.600 --> 0:20:11.520 And there's a book what is it, one hundred years 0:20:11.520 --> 0:20:14.240 of non violent Struggle. It showed me what it's possible, 0:20:14.720 --> 0:20:17.480 and I thought, well, okay, there are guys here are innocent. 0:20:17.560 --> 0:20:19.760 There are guys here who are on the law parties 0:20:19.800 --> 0:20:22.360 who the state will tell you they've never killed anybody. 0:20:22.960 --> 0:20:26.240 But there's still there's so much bias against criminal defendits 0:20:26.240 --> 0:20:29.119 and prisoners, especially people on death row. I thought, well, 0:20:29.920 --> 0:20:33.200 let's do something different. The idea was to take the 0:20:33.200 --> 0:20:37.720 theories that were practiced in India and during the civil 0:20:37.800 --> 0:20:42.560 rights movement here and engage in non violent direct action 0:20:42.720 --> 0:20:49.240 protests to bring some of the issues that criminal justice reform. 0:20:49.040 --> 0:20:50.920 Movement is pushing on the outside to. 0:20:50.840 --> 0:20:54.760 The forefront, right from the lens of this environment, and 0:20:54.840 --> 0:20:58.480 also to better the conditions here. Okay, So for example, 0:20:59.280 --> 0:21:02.280 I mean director, right, and they come and they handcuff 0:21:02.359 --> 0:21:06.119 us and take us out, and myself and others say no, 0:21:06.359 --> 0:21:08.720 we're not coming out. They say why, I say, well, 0:21:09.760 --> 0:21:12.000 for numerous reasons. One, you have interesting people here too. 0:21:12.040 --> 0:21:13.600 You have an interview of people here, you're trying to 0:21:13.680 --> 0:21:17.959 SQ three. We're in some highly oppressive conditions. And then 0:21:18.000 --> 0:21:21.080 of course they say, well we got something for that, 0:21:21.119 --> 0:21:22.720 and they bring the swat team and they gas you 0:21:23.080 --> 0:21:25.760 run in there and rush you up. And also I 0:21:25.800 --> 0:21:28.639 mean to be feared to have members. Yeah, they're a 0:21:28.720 --> 0:21:32.040 violent prisoners here, but yeah, they react with violence to 0:21:32.240 --> 0:21:32.880 non violence. 0:21:33.359 --> 0:21:36.720 Yeah, I've seen those videos. It's hard to believe that 0:21:36.840 --> 0:21:38.000 you actually lived that. 0:21:38.400 --> 0:21:41.639 Oh yeah, they hit me with Now, this gas is 0:21:41.680 --> 0:21:44.720 for rare control. It's for like twenty to thirty people. 0:21:44.760 --> 0:21:46.879 You're not even supposed to use this in themself. They 0:21:46.960 --> 0:21:48.200 hit me with it, and that's why, I mean, I 0:21:48.280 --> 0:21:51.719 start convulsing, you know. Yeah, it went on for an 0:21:51.720 --> 0:21:55.920 hour of gasing. I almost died actually, But hey, we're 0:21:55.960 --> 0:21:57.359 sitting here talking about it right now. 0:21:57.320 --> 0:21:59.080 Right, yes we are. 0:21:59.320 --> 0:22:01.760 And I guess your perspective about death might be a 0:22:01.800 --> 0:22:03.320 little different from insight here. 0:22:04.040 --> 0:22:06.280 Do you think about it a lot? Death? 0:22:06.680 --> 0:22:07.160 You know what? 0:22:08.760 --> 0:22:11.840 Yeah, I made myself. I mean I made myself. You 0:22:11.920 --> 0:22:14.280 got to like Mento moy right, But he was an 0:22:14.280 --> 0:22:19.360 interesting thing. And various religious schools and mystic schools they 0:22:19.359 --> 0:22:22.560 have sacred rights of like fake death right, like even 0:22:22.560 --> 0:22:27.960 with Freemasons, they have a symbolic death. Okay, it's mental more, 0:22:28.200 --> 0:22:33.760 remember mortality, right, And I mean you could wallow and 0:22:33.880 --> 0:22:36.760 fear and just be let that break you, which I've 0:22:36.760 --> 0:22:39.880