Speaker 1: Around six am on December four, two thousand, Rob Will
Speaker 1: and a Houston Cops son, Michael Alan Rosario, were stripping
Speaker 1: hubcaps in North Houston. Went Two Harris County deputies rolled up,
Speaker 1: and they gave chase through a nearby apartment complex. Deputy
Speaker 1: Hill followed Rob and Deputy Kelly chased Rosario just around
Speaker 1: the time that Deputy Hill radioed in that he had
Speaker 1: Robb and custody. Deputy Kelly lost sight of Rosario, and
Speaker 1: then about a minute later, Deputy Kelly heard gunshots coming
Speaker 1: from a little over a hundred yards away. Michael Allen
Speaker 1: Rosario had shot and killed Deputy Hill, and Rosario also
Speaker 1: shot Rob Will's left hand and freed him from his cuffs.
Speaker 1: Rob and Rosario separately fled the scene. Rob boosted a car,
Speaker 1: only to be pulled over and arrested peacefully about an
Speaker 1: hour northwest of Houston. Meanwhile, Michael Alan Rosario fled to
Speaker 1: Rob's girlfriend's apartment, where he is said to have had
Speaker 1: blood on his clothes, thing and washed up in the sink.
Speaker 1: At trial, the prosecution muddied the details about how much
Speaker 1: time Rosario had had to return to the scene and
Speaker 1: murder Deputy Hill. Which would have made Rob the only
Speaker 1: possible culprit at the scene. Despite the physical evidence of
Speaker 1: the contrary, Rob was convicted of capital murder and sentenced
Speaker 1: to death. One of Rob's A Pellet attorney, Sammy Khalil,
Speaker 1: tells me now about the evidence that Dave uncovered, as
Speaker 1: well as the progress in Rob's fight for freedom. This
Speaker 1: is Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flom. Welcome back to Wrongful
Speaker 1: Conviction with Jason Flom. That's me. I'm your host, and
Speaker 1: today we're going to discuss a case that has been
Speaker 1: a passion of mine for a long time, the case
Speaker 1: of Robert Gene Will will be joined by his highly
Speaker 1: esteemed A Pellet attorney, Sammy Khalil. But first, let me
Speaker 1: take you back to death Row in Texas, the Polunski unit,
Speaker 1: where I had a chance to speak with Robin person. Hey, Rob,
Speaker 1: thanks for sharing your story with us. So let's go
Speaker 1: back to way before all of this happened. Tell us
Speaker 1: about you as a child, oh man, kind of a
Speaker 1: quiet type of child who like to relie. Then how
Speaker 1: was it growing up, I mean, how was your home life?
Speaker 1: Kind of grew up around I mean, you know, my
Speaker 1: dad was murdered I mean he'd been in out of
Speaker 1: prison before he's murdered. Yeah, he's really just not good.
Speaker 1: So just before all of this happened, what were you
Speaker 1: doing with your life? I was going into my seven
Speaker 1: year college for child psychology and I was taking care
Speaker 1: of my son. That was one of my main folks.
Speaker 1: Just take care of my son and his half brother.
Speaker 1: One of the reasons I went to school college for
Speaker 1: child psychology because I was like, Okay, I grew up
Speaker 1: in evangelical as in southern Jackson household. You didn't talk
Speaker 1: about problems, you didn't talk about emotion, you didn't talk
Speaker 1: about issues. Now I remember, just never have anyone to
Speaker 1: talk to, Like even after my dad was murdered, I
Speaker 1: didn't and talked to anyone at all about it. And
Speaker 1: getting older, you kind of realize how bad it is.
Speaker 1: And I wanted to get at the green child so
Speaker 1: I gotta said, Okay, I could help children who didn't
Speaker 1: have anyone to talk to him, right, And I always
Speaker 1: told myself, I'm gonna be there for my son. And
Speaker 1: how old was your son when this tragedy happened. Uh,
Speaker 1: he was less than a year old. Yeah, I was
Speaker 1: very active five though I mean, I took care of him,
Speaker 1: change his diapers, bayed them like managed our society should,
Speaker 1: but I don't. I took care of his half brother
Speaker 1: was five or five. So you were you were going
Speaker 1: to school, being a good dad. But you were also
Speaker 1: involved with some not so great people. I mean, in fact,
Speaker 1: you were scared ring up some extra cash by stripping
Speaker 1: hubcaps in North Houston with the son of an Houston
Speaker 1: cop named Michael Allen Rosario on the morning that Harris
Speaker 1: County Deputy Barrett Hill was murdered. I was doing student stuff,
Speaker 1: hanging on idiot people, even on and commit this murder.
Speaker 1: I'm responsible for war engaging activity day. I should have
Speaker 1: known could the bad things, and I'll be taken away
Speaker 1: from myself. Today we have with us Sammy Khalil. Sammy
Speaker 1: is a former assistant Federal Public Defender and he's also
Speaker 1: a member of the Federal Bar Association, the National Association
Speaker 1: of Criminal Defense Lawyers, the Harris County Criminal Lawyers Association.
Speaker 1: He's also a fellow of the Texas Bar Foundation, a
Speaker 1: board member of the Texas Defenders Service, and of course
Speaker 1: for quite some time now, you can have a part
Speaker 1: of the legal team including j Ewart and Karen Otto
Speaker 1: from Arnold and Porter and to local Houston at journeys
Speaker 1: Chad Flores and out of Donell and they're all working
Speaker 1: together to have the truth come out and free Rob Will.
Speaker 1: So Sammy, welcome to Wrongful Conviction. Thank you. Jason, and
Speaker 1: you and I have had the opportunity to spend some
Speaker 1: time together. Of course we were on Dr Phil's show
Speaker 1: together talking about this very case, and of course it
Speaker 1: starts with Rob Will's unbelievably tragic childhood where he was
Speaker 1: abused terribly. His father was murdered when he was ten, right,
Speaker 1: that's right. He was in and out of trouble as
Speaker 1: a kid. This happened when he was twenty one. He
Speaker 1: was arrested in December two thousand and has been on
Speaker 1: death row essentially for the last two decades. What we
Speaker 1: know happened Rob and Rocky Michael Allen Rosario's nickname. We're
Speaker 1: stripping down like the hub caps of a parked vehicle
Speaker 1: in an apartment complex in North Houston, six am, December four,
Speaker 1: son barely rising and a patrol vehicle arrives at the scene.
Speaker 1: Deputy Michael Kelly was in that patrol vehicle and also
Speaker 1: Deputy Buried Hill. When they arrive, Rob and Rosario run
Speaker 1: behind several units of the apartment complex. There's kind of
Speaker 1: like a grassy alleyway they are chase. Deputy Hill follows Rob,
Speaker 1: Deputy Kelly follows Rosario. Now Rob takes a hard left
Speaker 1: through an opening between two apartment units. Rocky does the
Speaker 1: same thing, but at the next opening, and they both
Speaker 1: proceed in the same direction on either side of this
Speaker 1: apartment unit. They both crossed the street. About twenty seconds later,
Speaker 1: the dispatch takes show that Deputy Hill had Robbed in custody.
Speaker 1: He radios into the dispatch center saying, I have one
Speaker 1: in custody. It's undisputed that that person in custody is Rob. Meanwhile,
Speaker 1: Rosario continues down a concrete, kind of overgrown driveway in
Speaker 1: this field that's on the other side of the street
Speaker 1: that they both crossed, and Deputy Kelly he admitted that
Speaker 1: he lost sight of Rosario at some point after Rosario
Speaker 1: entered the concrete driveway, and we believe after Rob was
Speaker 1: placed in custody by Deputy Hill, that Michael Allen Rosario
Speaker 1: reached the end of that overgone driveway, took a left
Speaker 1: and proceeded back to the area where Rob was handcuffed
Speaker 1: and in custody and murdered. Deputy Hill freed Rob of
Speaker 1: the handcuffs and they both fled, and we know that
Speaker 1: Rob was shot in the process in his left hand.
Speaker 1: There's no question about that. Rob's third and fourth knuckle,
Speaker 1: maybe the fourth and fifth knuckle of his left hand,
Speaker 1: was essentially blown off. Immediately after the tragic, senseless murder
Speaker 1: of Deputy Hill, Rosario went to Rob's girlfriend's home, where
Speaker 1: he washed his clothes. He'd later removed names and numbers
Speaker 1: from his address book. I mean, come on. He went
Speaker 1: on to confess to no less than five separate people,
Speaker 1: who later all every one of them signed a sworn affidavit.
Speaker 1: And it gets worse from there. When Rosario's family was
Speaker 1: asked to produce the clothes he had been wearing on
Speaker 1: the morning of the crime. The clothes have been washed, bleached,
Speaker 1: and neatly folded. These are not the actions we typically
Speaker 1: would associate with someone who was innocent. So back to
Speaker 1: the morning of the murder, Rob boosted a car to
Speaker 1: get away. Now, obviously that's illegal, and he doesn't dispute that,
Speaker 1: but it doesn't make him a murderer. In fact, when
Speaker 1: he was pulled over about an hour northwest of Houston
Speaker 1: and Brenham, Texas, he was compliant and peaceful towards the
Speaker 1: arresting officers. The prosecutors have created THISUS narrative like, you know,
Speaker 1: we acted afterwards, right, but they don't even want to
Speaker 1: talk about the actual physical evidence. In my case, I
Speaker 1: think that's very important. How did you act afterward? I
Speaker 1: ran away? I mean I saw someone get culled. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm running away. So you're pulled over and arrested. They
Speaker 1: treat your wounded left hand, They bag your hands and
Speaker 1: gloves to be tested for gunshot residue. What was going
Speaker 1: through your mind? I was pretty much a state of trauma, right.
Speaker 1: You know, it's very very deserving. I didn't give any
Speaker 1: statement to police things. You know, they kept trying to
Speaker 1: get me to talk about what happened, and you know
Speaker 1: who was with me, and I just didn't give any statement.
Speaker 1: How long were you been jailed before trial? About a
Speaker 1: year and a month. I mean, Rob, you knew you
Speaker 1: hadn't killed that PV. Hill, But at the time, did
Speaker 1: you really think everything was gonna work itself out? You
Speaker 1: want to think that the system is righteous, the system
Speaker 1: is honorable with those people in positions of power are
Speaker 1: going to do the right thing. I mean, I didn't
Speaker 1: under saying anything about the system as a whole. I
Speaker 1: wasn't familiar with criminal justice form a movement at the time.
Speaker 1: I didn't understand the problems. They didn't turn over some
Speaker 1: of the main physical evidence in my case. They waited
Speaker 1: a year and month until the day before trial and
Speaker 1: just take a look at the physical evidence. I mean,
Speaker 1: just like, some of the things are so so ridiculous.
Speaker 1: It's just obvious and self evidence. So let's talk about
Speaker 1: the physical evidence available at trial. None of Deputy hills
Speaker 1: blood was found on Rob or his clothing, the same
Speaker 1: clothing from the scene that he was arrested in. When
Speaker 1: Rob was arrested, his wounded left hand was treated, and
Speaker 1: his gloves and hands were bagged to be tested for
Speaker 1: gunshot residue. Now, as per Josh Dubin's junct Science episode
Speaker 1: about gunshot rescue, which I strongly recommend, one cannot conclude
Speaker 1: that the presence of antimony or barium were other elements
Speaker 1: associated with gunshot residue directly mean that a gun was
Speaker 1: fired or not. It just means that those elements are present,
Speaker 1: but the source really cannot be determined. It could be
Speaker 1: cigarette ash and certain mechanical equipment, even dried urine, as
Speaker 1: well as gunshots. Of course, those things and others can
Speaker 1: all be a potential source of some of these elements. However,
Speaker 1: if none of those elements are found at all out
Speaker 1: of suspect's hands or gloves, it can be said with
Speaker 1: certainty that a gun had not been fired by that
Speaker 1: person's hand. It appears to be the state's theory, was
Speaker 1: the state's theory at the time of trial, that Rob
Speaker 1: had this firearm before the murder, somehow, after being handcuffed
Speaker 1: during the process of being handcuffed, shot himself handcuffed, injured himself,
Speaker 1: and somehow miraculously freed himself of these handcuffs. The problem
Speaker 1: with that theory is that no gunshot residue was ever
Speaker 1: found on Rob's right hand at all. So without gunshot
Speaker 1: residue on the right hand glove or his right hand,
Speaker 1: the one he would have needed to shoot his own
Speaker 1: left hand, obviously, it can be said with certainty that
Speaker 1: he had not fired the gun at all. Deputy Hill
Speaker 1: had not even unholstered his gun let alone fired it,
Speaker 1: so someone else was at that crime scene firing a gun.
Speaker 1: The ballistics evidence showed that Deputy Hill had been shot
Speaker 1: as close as eight inches away. Had Rob shot Deputy
Speaker 1: Hill from that range, Rob would have been covered in
Speaker 1: Deputy Hill's blood. This was not the case. Rob did
Speaker 1: not have a speck of Deputy hills blood on him,
Speaker 1: So obviously someone did shoot Deputy Hill. But all evidence
Speaker 1: points away from Rob and towards Rosario, who, by eyewitness accounts,
Speaker 1: had washed blood off of his clothing in Rob's girlfriend's sink.
Speaker 1: So how in the world did the prosecution pin this
Speaker 1: on Rob? What else did they present? The dispatch records
Speaker 1: are critical. The state said that we're so eo based
Speaker 1: on its analysis of the dispatch records, only had about
Speaker 1: eight seconds to cover about three hundred feet a hundred yards,
Speaker 1: call it almost a football field. The state's position was
Speaker 1: that Rosario is not an Olympic athlete, that he can't
Speaker 1: cover that distance about three hundred feet in eight seconds.
Speaker 1: But in fact, a careful review and analysis of the
Speaker 1: testimony and trial, matched with the dispatch records that were
Speaker 1: presented at trial, show that Rosario had at least anywhere
Speaker 1: from forty four seconds to a minute twenty six seconds
Speaker 1: in between to reach the scene of the crime. So
Speaker 1: that was not articulated well at trial. And what's critical
Speaker 1: is that Deputy Kelly in the state suggested that Rosario
Speaker 1: went right went east at the end of that driveway,
Speaker 1: although de Eadie Kelly has since walked back those initial
Speaker 1: intimations and at trial admitted that he didn't know that
Speaker 1: he lost sight of where Rosario actually went. But what
Speaker 1: was not presented at trial was this critical blood hound
Speaker 1: dog tracking evidence that traced the scent of Michael Allen
Speaker 1: Rosario shortly after the murder up this concrete driveway, and
Speaker 1: instead of to the right, which was the state's theory east,
Speaker 1: the bloodhound tracked hard west to the left, directly to
Speaker 1: the crimes. That was not presented to the jury. Right,
Speaker 1: and so since these and so many more critical pieces
Speaker 1: of evidence, some of which were hidden by the prosecution,
Speaker 1: others simply not investigated by Rob's counsel at trial, since
Speaker 1: this evidence was not presented to the jury, and since
Speaker 1: Rosario couldn't possibly have made that distance in eight seconds,
Speaker 1: and we know that no hu and being could, then
Speaker 1: despite all other evidence making Rob's guilt impossible under this
Speaker 1: false narrative, Rob was the only one the state was
Speaker 1: placing at the crime scene. And we know in a
Speaker 1: case like this, someone had to answer, someone had to
Speaker 1: pay for Deputy hills murder. And that point was really
Speaker 1: driven home by what is known as the wall of blue.
Speaker 1: Can you talk about that? Sure? Absolutely? The Harris County
Speaker 1: Sheriff's Office put out a bulletin for Harris County Sheriff's
Speaker 1: deputies to appear in uniform at Rob's trial, not to
Speaker 1: offer evidence, but to appear as spectators. So imagine if
Speaker 1: you are such a juror sitting to pass judgment on
Speaker 1: a person whom the District Attorney's office believes killed a
Speaker 1: police officer. To have a wall of blue in the
Speaker 1: trial room, it sends an unmistakable message that we know
Speaker 1: who pulled the trigger. Had nothing to do with evidence,
Speaker 1: everything to do with creating an atmosphere of prejudice and
Speaker 1: intimid dish. So there you are in the courtroom, still
Speaker 1: healing from being shot in the hand, a gunshot wound
Speaker 1: that the lack of gunshot residue proves conclusively that you
Speaker 1: could not have inflicted on yourself. The prosecution muddied the
Speaker 1: water around how much time Rosario had to get back
Speaker 1: to the crime scene and shoot Deputy Hill from behind,
Speaker 1: along with a mountain of exculpatory evidence that was either unknown, uninvestigated,
Speaker 1: or most importantly hidden at the time of trial, plus
Speaker 1: the wall of blue. You were sentenced to death. Can
Speaker 1: you tell us about that moment? I mean it was
Speaker 1: pronouncement of death. Thinking back, it's just and you feel
Speaker 1: like you're you're out of time, out of space, and
Speaker 1: this isn't Brie. It's like this, this can't be happening. This,
Speaker 1: you know, this is not real. So you've been locked
Speaker 1: up since December four of two thousand and eventually you
Speaker 1: were sent to death row. What have you been doing
Speaker 1: all this time to occupy your time and keep your
Speaker 1: mind insane? Oh? Man, I do a lot of reading, yoga, meditation,
Speaker 1: work on art, and I encourage our audience to check
Speaker 1: out some of Rob's work. We did a show in
Speaker 1: New York with some of his artwork to support his
Speaker 1: legal battle. Just follow the link in the episode description
Speaker 1: to check it out. Free rob Will dot org is
Speaker 1: the website Free rob Will dot org. Now, Rob, when
Speaker 1: you got here, your son was just barely two years old.
Speaker 1: Have you at least gotten to see him? Oh? Well,
Speaker 1: I didn't have a lot of contact with him because
Speaker 1: some of my relatives didn't let me have a lot
Speaker 1: of direct contact with him. So I'd write him and
Speaker 1: hoping that it should get to him. Some of them did,
Speaker 1: but we didn't have a lot of contact until he
Speaker 1: got older. He came to see me after returned eighteen,
Speaker 1: and it's just like, wow, man, you know, he's like
Speaker 1: six foot man, what's up? You know? I wear a
Speaker 1: sizes Twilves, you right, you worst of thirteen. I stand
Speaker 1: up and he's like right here. I'm like, oh wow, okay, wow.
Speaker 1: You know he's almost taught as me. And it's just
Speaker 1: he's a man, you know what I mean, He's he's
Speaker 1: a man. I kind of emotionally talking about this, so
Speaker 1: you know, you're just like I mean, first time I
Speaker 1: held my son, I was just in tears and not
Speaker 1: somebody like burst out in tears. I actually just became
Speaker 1: a grandfather, right, kind of emotional. What was the question, Well,
Speaker 1: it was just if you get to see him. You know,
Speaker 1: I have kids myself, and the thought of not being
Speaker 1: able to be physically with them there have been times where,
Speaker 1: for some years when I first got to very very
Speaker 1: very hard, there's people I care about out there that
Speaker 1: I'm I know I could be positive influencing her life
Speaker 1: while I was out there and worrying about that can
Speaker 1: be disturbing. Just say used to be disturbed, but really,
Speaker 1: I mean I went through a period where I did
Speaker 1: a lot of study in religion and psychology and psychoanalysis
Speaker 1: and yoga and mind body health. I mean, I'm like
Speaker 1: spend weeks and weeks and weeks doing these things, like
Speaker 1: you know, spend four or five months on one yoga
Speaker 1: post really internalizing the meaning and and one of the
Speaker 1: things that being mindful really teaches you was like, Okay,
Speaker 1: analyze events from respective of this is not happening to me,
Speaker 1: is happening in a larger context. It's one reason why
Speaker 1: I always feel propelled to engage you so much chriminal
Speaker 1: justice for form activity, because okay, it's not about just me.
Speaker 1: It's like I feel compelled to speak out about that
Speaker 1: and to work on chriminal justice from you know what
Speaker 1: I mean. Yeah, you've gotten a paralegal degree while in here,
Speaker 1: and you've been leading and participating in non violent protests
Speaker 1: can you talk about that and how you began down
Speaker 1: this path. Well, it came about from very in depth study,
Speaker 1: particularly the history of resistance to British imperialism in India,
Speaker 1: and there's a there's a book what is it? A
Speaker 1: hundred years of non violent struggle. It showed me what
Speaker 1: it is possible, and I thought, well, Okay, there are
Speaker 1: guys here are innocent. There are guys here who are
Speaker 1: under the law parties who the state will tell you
Speaker 1: they've never killed anybody. But there's still there's so much
Speaker 1: bias against criminal defendants and prisoners, especially people on death row.
Speaker 1: I thought, well, let's do something different. The idea was
Speaker 1: to take the theories that were practiced in India and
Speaker 1: during the civil rights movement here and engage in non
Speaker 1: violent direct action protests to bring some of the issues
Speaker 1: that that criminal justice warm movement is pushing on the
Speaker 1: outside to the forefront right from the lens of this environment,
Speaker 1: and also to better the conditions here. Okay, So for example,
Speaker 1: I mean the rector it right, and they come and
Speaker 1: they handcuff us and take us out, and myself and
Speaker 1: others say no, we're not coming out. They say why,
Speaker 1: I say, well, for now much reasons. One, you have
Speaker 1: interesting people here too, you have mentally you know people
Speaker 1: here you're trying to excute. Three, we're in highly oppressive conditions,
Speaker 1: and of course they say, well we got something for that,
Speaker 1: and they bring the swap team and they gass you
Speaker 1: running there and brought you up. And and also, I
Speaker 1: mean to be fair to have members. Yeah they were
Speaker 1: violent prisoners here, but yeah, they react with violence to
Speaker 1: non violence. Yeah, I've seen those videos. Um, it's hard
Speaker 1: to believe that you actually live that. Oh yeah, they
Speaker 1: hit me with and now this gas is for rye control,
Speaker 1: it's for earty people. You're not even supposed to use
Speaker 1: this in the cell. They hit me with it, and
Speaker 1: that's why, I mean I started convulsion, you know. Uh. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they went on for an hour of gassing almost diet actually.
Speaker 1: But hey, we're sitting there talking about it right now, right,
Speaker 1: yes we are. And I guess your perspective about death
Speaker 1: might be a little different from insight here. Do you
Speaker 1: think about it a lot? You know what? Yeah, I
Speaker 1: made myself. I mean I made myself. You got to
Speaker 1: like memntal Moory, right, But he was an interesting thing
Speaker 1: in various religious schools and mystic schools they have sacred
Speaker 1: rights of like fake death right, like even with Freemason state,
Speaker 1: they have a symbolic death. Okay, it's momental moory, remember mortality, right,
Speaker 1: And I mean you could wallow and fear and just
Speaker 1: be let that break you. What I've seen due is
Speaker 1: go insane. Or you could say, all right, what does
Speaker 1: that mean understanding death? And the conclusion I've come to
Speaker 1: is like live life, man, live life, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean? This is just beauty everywhere everywhere? Like, how
Speaker 1: is this to some cold chine John Cole, just listen
Speaker 1: to some John Coltrane, Man, John, how can you be
Speaker 1: sad listening to John Coulture a se a mystic sorcerer,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? And again it's perspective. It's
Speaker 1: not of yoga meditation. Man. Well that sounds like a
Speaker 1: good formula for survival anywhere, including on the outside. Do
Speaker 1: you allow yourself hope for being on the outside again
Speaker 1: one day? Man, I've been knocked up almost twenty years.
Speaker 1: I mean I have faith in right then would be done.
Speaker 1: Someone is gonna make this right. So Sammy, how long
Speaker 1: have you been representing Rob the federal judge here in
Speaker 1: Texas appointed me in January of to take over Rob's case.
Speaker 1: Judge Ellison described a case containing what he called disturbing uncertainties,
Speaker 1: and at that time the federal judge expressed what he
Speaker 1: called his deeply felt concerns about the substantial evidence of
Speaker 1: actual innocence on the part of Rob will errors of
Speaker 1: grave proportion at the initial trial. So that's the situation
Speaker 1: I found myself walking into when this federal judge asked
Speaker 1: me to take over Rob's case. And look from the
Speaker 1: very beginning all the way through the appellate process, what
Speaker 1: actually has happened. Can you tell us about the ridiculous
Speaker 1: state havebeas appeal, which is of course the round of
Speaker 1: appeal before you were appointed by Judge Ellison. Tell us
Speaker 1: what this appellate attorney did and how damaging it was.
Speaker 1: I Will, Rob was appointed a lawyer who essentially cut
Speaker 1: and pasted a brief that he had filed in a
Speaker 1: different death penalty case into Rob's brief. So this lawyer
Speaker 1: should have done what any reasonably competent state habeas lawyer
Speaker 1: would do, go back out and reinvestigate the case, look
Speaker 1: at witnesses that should have been called evidence that wasn't
Speaker 1: produced carefully analyzed what's in the state's file. Do the
Speaker 1: analysis of the timeline that we have now done, look
Speaker 1: at the forensic evidence, look at Michael Allen. Were Soria
Speaker 1: go through the police records his statements, you would have
Speaker 1: uncovered multiple lives were Sorryo made to the police, including
Speaker 1: denying that he'd ever been there, that he even knew raw,
Speaker 1: and that he had handled the gun just before the
Speaker 1: murder for Sorry. His behavior post murder was deeply suspicious
Speaker 1: and points to consciousness of guilty. For example, he did
Speaker 1: go back to this apartment the morning of the murder.
Speaker 1: He told a witness by the name of Natasha Alien
Speaker 1: that as he was washing his clothes in the kitchen
Speaker 1: sink of the department, he made a statement that the
Speaker 1: blood just came off. The d a's office moved the
Speaker 1: trial court to block that's eatement from Natasha Alien from
Speaker 1: coming into evidence for the jury's consideration. That is the
Speaker 1: evidence that Judge Ellison, in the third round of appeals
Speaker 1: has now pointed to as evidence that should have been presented.
Speaker 1: That's just one example of where Sario's suspicious behavior after
Speaker 1: the murder. These are all issues that should have been
Speaker 1: investigated that we have uncovered since. So let's just quickly
Speaker 1: recap some of those issues and evidence that we've already mentioned.
Speaker 1: No gunshot residue on the glove or hand that Rob
Speaker 1: would have needed to shoot himself in Deputy Hill, none
Speaker 1: of Deputy hills blood or DNA and Rob, which should
Speaker 1: have been the case since Deputy Hill was shot at
Speaker 1: close range. The analysis of the dispatched transcripts and sworn
Speaker 1: testimony that shows that Rosario had plenty of time to
Speaker 1: return to the scene and murder Deputy Hill, the bloodhound
Speaker 1: tracking evidence that also supports Rob's version of events, a
Speaker 1: slew of witnesses who have signed affid David's claiming that
Speaker 1: Rosario admitted to the murder, as well as the statement
Speaker 1: from Natasha Hallien claiming that Rosario talked about how the
Speaker 1: blood just came out of the pants as he was
Speaker 1: washing them in their kitchen sink. Then there's all of
Speaker 1: Rosario's lives to the police, which include denying having been
Speaker 1: there at all, denying even knowing Rob Will, and last
Speaker 1: but not least, denying having ever touched the gun, only
Speaker 1: to admit having handled the gun just before the murder.
Speaker 1: I mean this should be more than enough, but there's
Speaker 1: even more. We've uncovered a new witness, David Cruz, who
Speaker 1: says that Michael Allen Rosario confessed to the murder, but
Speaker 1: that he was going to blame Rob Will. And we've
Speaker 1: uncovered the smoking guy. We've discovered police records that show
Speaker 1: that Michael Allen Rosario approached the Texas Syndicate Gang and
Speaker 1: David Cruz to have Rob Will, the only eyewitness to
Speaker 1: his crime, killed after the murder. There's nothing more suspicious
Speaker 1: than trying to have someone killed postcrime. The State of
Speaker 1: Texas knew about this document. The District Attorney's office knew
Speaker 1: about this document, but they inexplicably concealed it from Rob's
Speaker 1: defense team. In fact, pre trial, days before the beginning
Speaker 1: of jury selection, Deputy Strickland, who authored this document, represented
Speaker 1: to the court under oath that he had no information
Speaker 1: relating to Rob Will's case. I mean, why would the
Speaker 1: authorities be seeming to protect an individual who, by all appearances,
Speaker 1: seems to have been the actual murder of a police officer.
Speaker 1: Michael Allen. We're sorryo is someone who has been in
Speaker 1: trouble with the law since a very young age and
Speaker 1: seemingly he has been protected were Sorrio before the crime
Speaker 1: and also after he and Rob were arrested, appeared to
Speaker 1: believe that his dad was a shield from prosecution. He
Speaker 1: made statements to Tailor's in particular Deputy Patricia Scheffani, that
Speaker 1: he was essentially invincible. That too, is another police record
Speaker 1: or jail record that was never disclosed to Rob's defense team. Yeah,
Speaker 1: this is not some fly by night person. This is
Speaker 1: an actual police official who is prepared to come forward
Speaker 1: with this very damning evidence. And what we have been
Speaker 1: fighting for is a new trial to present all of
Speaker 1: the evidence that we have uncovered over the last eight years.
Speaker 1: And I understand there's been some progress on that front.
Speaker 1: There has been some movement on that front. After a
Speaker 1: long struggle. On August five, the United States Court of
Speaker 1: Appeals for the Fifth Circuit sent the case back to
Speaker 1: Judge Ellison so he could further explore this key exculpatory
Speaker 1: evidence that was withheld from Rob's trial lawyers. In fact,
Speaker 1: they quote him at length in certain parts of their
Speaker 1: opinion that there are disturbing uncertainties, a total absence of
Speaker 1: eyewitness testimony or strongly probative forensic evidence, and considerable evidence
Speaker 1: supporting Will's innocence. And then the Fifth Circuit goes on
Speaker 1: to say that there were disturbing uncertainties of Will's culpability
Speaker 1: even before the introduction of the withheld evidence. Now, with
Speaker 1: the new evidence in hand, the uncertainties are even more disturbed.
Speaker 1: In addition to all of that, the Fifth Circuit stated
Speaker 1: that Rob Will has now demonstrated that it is reasonably
Speaker 1: likely that after hearing the new evidence alongside the old evidence,
Speaker 1: every reasonable juror would have some level of reasonable doubt.
Speaker 1: I'm absolutely innocent. This isn't some ridiculous game or anything.
Speaker 1: And I want people to really really realize this, and
Speaker 1: I take the time to look at the evidence, because yeah,
Speaker 1: it's about me, but it's about my family and and
Speaker 1: it's it's about the criminal justice system as a whole.
Speaker 1: You know. They're law professors who are like academic commentators
Speaker 1: who say, well, yeah, we probably executed four or five
Speaker 1: MC people in Texas. It's not okay. It's not okay.
Speaker 1: It is not okay. It is not okay at all. Well, Rob,
Speaker 1: you're definitely appreciated to the choir here. I can't even
Speaker 1: count the number of times i've said this while arguing
Speaker 1: against people who believe in the death penalty. I mean,
Speaker 1: how many innocent people is it okay to execute? Like,
Speaker 1: do you know any other innocent guys that are in
Speaker 1: there with you right now? Well, I'll tell you this.
Speaker 1: When I first got here, I thought I was only one, right,
Speaker 1: But then it's like, oh, wow, another guys tolerated. Wow,
Speaker 1: all another exoneration. It's just just like it's just ridiculous,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. I think maybe one of
Speaker 1: the things is like I read so much and I
Speaker 1: studied so much. I think I always kind of being
Speaker 1: like that. But it's a compulsion to understand society and
Speaker 1: understand the system and understand more of the intricacies of life.
Speaker 1: And also I feel feel deproportionate to really let people
Speaker 1: understand the system man, and understand how it truly works.
Speaker 1: And one of the reasons why it fights so hard
Speaker 1: is because I have a vision of doing the type
Speaker 1: of works Anthony Graves has done. She's She's been released.
Speaker 1: Anthony Graves was really good, dude. He was desonerated here
Speaker 1: five six years ago, and he he is like a
Speaker 1: shining example of what the foreign incarcerated, especially those who
Speaker 1: are exonerated should be well. Rob, even if you're not
Speaker 1: out yet, you have already showing yourself to be that
Speaker 1: shining example through your artwork, through your spirit, through what
Speaker 1: you've been able to accomplish from behind bars, not only
Speaker 1: in the realm of criminal justice and prison reform, but
Speaker 1: also in just the man that you have become against
Speaker 1: all odds. So thank you so much for talking to
Speaker 1: me today. Thank you. We're not here for any reason
Speaker 1: other than to try to have the truth come out,
Speaker 1: not just for Rob and for his family, but also
Speaker 1: for the family of the murdered officer and and for
Speaker 1: his memory. It was a senseless crime that never should
Speaker 1: have happened, but Rob didn't do it, and he shouldn't
Speaker 1: be in prison for it. We're gonna need all the
Speaker 1: support we can get from anyone and everyone who could
Speaker 1: lend their voice to this issue, So if you haven't
Speaker 1: done so already, please check out the Rolling Stone article
Speaker 1: about this case and go to free Rob Will dot
Speaker 1: org to learn more. You can also sign a petition
Speaker 1: for a new trial for Rob at change dot org.
Speaker 1: All of these action steps will be blinked in the
Speaker 1: episode bio, so just scroll down learn more and get
Speaker 1: involved and Sammy. We have a feature of this show
Speaker 1: that has come to be my favorite part of the show,
Speaker 1: and I think a lot of the audience shares my
Speaker 1: feelings on it. It's a segment we call closing Arguments,
Speaker 1: and basically it's just where I get to once again
Speaker 1: thank you for being here, and then turn my microphone
Speaker 1: off and just kick back, close my eyes and listen
Speaker 1: to you with any closing thoughts that you want to share. Well, Jason,
Speaker 1: thank you again. Thank you for your commitment to criminal
Speaker 1: justice reform, your interest in the death penalty and reforming
Speaker 1: and hopefully one day abolishing the death penalty. And thank
Speaker 1: you in particular for your interest in Rob's case. Dr
Speaker 1: Phil He deserves a lot of credit. These are not
Speaker 1: easy cases. We have a slang police officer and people
Speaker 1: don't want to be associated with that. But what we
Speaker 1: need is for the truth to come out. All we're asking,
Speaker 1: if you're gonna seek the death penalty against someone, let's
Speaker 1: make it a fair fight. Don't hide evidence, don't conceal evidence.
Speaker 1: Live up to your obligations you have to under the Constitution.
Speaker 1: Under the Supreme Courts nineteen sixty three case Brady versus
Speaker 1: Maryland turnover disclose to the defense favorable evidence. Why if
Speaker 1: you don't innocent, people like wrong end up on death growth.
Speaker 1: So we need another trial where the jury here's the
Speaker 1: whole story, not just half of the story. We need
Speaker 1: another trial where the d a's office lives up to
Speaker 1: its constitutional and ethical obligations to turn over favorable evidence
Speaker 1: before the trial, not thirteen fourteen years afterwards, when the
Speaker 1: appellate process is so restrictive in terms of what judge
Speaker 1: can do. We need to get a new trial that's fair.
Speaker 1: That's just where the d a's office placed by the rules,
Speaker 1: where they don't hide or concealed. Thank you, Rob. I
Speaker 1: think that people need to understand that I truly am
Speaker 1: innocent in my case. Yes, it's about me and my family,
Speaker 1: but it's also about the criminal justice system as a whole.
Speaker 1: And everybody needs to to realize the truth of the
Speaker 1: evidence in my case. And I also understand that it
Speaker 1: should be uh microscope which to examine the intricacies of
Speaker 1: the criminal justice system. And I hope people will feel
Speaker 1: compelled to get involved in criminal justice reform. Oh everybody, go, go,
Speaker 1: go on the internet and google John Coltrane interview, Go
Speaker 1: listen to a love Supreme, listen to some John Cole
Speaker 1: trained man and you're gonna be happy. Huh. Don't forget
Speaker 1: to give us a fantastic review. Wherever you get your podcasts,
Speaker 1: it really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the
Speaker 1: Innocence Project and I really hope you'll join me in
Speaker 1: supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent future
Speaker 1: wrongful convictions before they happen. Go to Innocence Project dot
Speaker 1: org to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd
Speaker 1: like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Awardis.
Speaker 1: The music on the show is by three time OSCAR
Speaker 1: nomine composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on
Speaker 1: Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast.
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam is a production of Lava
Speaker 1: for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one