1 00:00:03,560 --> 00:00:07,000 Speaker 1: Around six am on December fourth, two thousand, Rob Will 2 00:00:07,080 --> 00:00:10,719 Speaker 1: and a Houston CoP's son, Michael Alan Rosario, were stripping 3 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 1: hubcaps in North Houston when two Harris County deputies rolled up, 4 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:19,040 Speaker 1: and they gave chase through a nearby apartment complex. Deputy 5 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:23,640 Speaker 1: Hill followed Rob and Deputy Kelly chased Rosario. Just around 6 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:26,239 Speaker 1: the time the Deputy Hill radioed in that he had 7 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 1: Rob in custody. Deputy Kelly lost sight of Rosario, and 8 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:33,880 Speaker 1: then about a minute later, Deputy Kelly heard gunshots coming 9 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 1: from a little over one hundred yards away. Michael Alan 10 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 1: Rosario had shot and killed Deputy Hill, and Rosario also 11 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 1: shot Rob Will's left hand and freed him from his cuffs. 12 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:49,320 Speaker 1: Rob and Rosario separately fled the scene. Rob boosted a car, 13 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 1: only to be pulled over and arrested peacefully about an 14 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 1: hour northwest of Houston. Meanwhile, Michael Alan Rosario fled to 15 00:00:56,800 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 1: Rob's girlfriend's apartment, where he is said to have had 16 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:01,720 Speaker 1: blood on his clothes and washed up in the sink. 17 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:06,120 Speaker 1: At trial, the prosecution muddied the details about how much 18 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 1: time Rosario had had to return to the scene and 19 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:11,679 Speaker 1: murder Deputy Hill, which would have made Rob the only 20 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 1: possible culprit at the scene, despite the physical evidence of 21 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:19,080 Speaker 1: the contrary. Rob was convicted of capital murder and sentenced 22 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:22,759 Speaker 1: to death. One of Rob's appellate attorneys, Sammy Khalil, tells 23 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 1: me now about the evidence that Dave uncovered, as well 24 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:29,679 Speaker 1: as the progress in Rob's fight for freedom. This is 25 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction 26 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:46,640 Speaker 1: with Jason Flamm. 27 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 2: That's me. 28 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 1: I'm your host, and today we're going to discuss a 29 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 1: case that has been a passion of mine for a 30 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 1: long time, the case of Robert Jean. Will will be 31 00:01:56,120 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 1: joined by his highly esteemed appellate attorney, Sammy Khalil. But first, 32 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 1: let me take you back to Death Row in Texas, 33 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:05,559 Speaker 1: the Polunsky Unit, where I had a chance to speak 34 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:09,400 Speaker 1: with Rob in person. Hey, Rob, thanks for sharing your 35 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:10,120 Speaker 1: story with us. 36 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:10,680 Speaker 3: Thank you. 37 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 2: So let's go back to way before all of this happened. 38 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:18,079 Speaker 2: Tell us about you as a child. 39 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:20,960 Speaker 3: Oh man, kind of a quiet type of child who'd 40 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 3: like to read lot. 41 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:23,720 Speaker 2: And how was it growing up, I mean, how was 42 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 2: your home life? 43 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 3: Kind of grew up around. 44 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 4: I mean, you know, my dad was murdered I mean 45 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 4: he'd been in and out of prison before he's murdered. 46 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:36,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, he's really just not good. 47 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:39,840 Speaker 1: So just before all of this happened, what were you 48 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 1: doing with your life? 49 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:45,960 Speaker 4: I was going into my seventy year college for child psychology, 50 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 4: and I was taking care of my son. 51 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:49,680 Speaker 3: That was one of my main folks to take care 52 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:51,680 Speaker 3: of my son and his half brother. 53 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 4: One of the reason I went to school college for 54 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:57,919 Speaker 4: child psychology because I was like, Okay, I grew up. 55 00:02:57,880 --> 00:03:02,359 Speaker 3: In evangelical CHRISTI in southern takes some household. 56 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 4: You didn't talk about problems, you didn't talk about emotion, 57 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:09,399 Speaker 4: you didn't talk about issues. Now, I remember just never 58 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 4: having anyone to talk to, Like even after my dad 59 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:13,960 Speaker 4: was murdered, I didn't. I didn't ever talk to anyone 60 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:17,920 Speaker 4: at all about it. And getting older, you kind of 61 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:22,119 Speaker 4: realize how bad it is. And I wanted to get 62 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:24,960 Speaker 4: a green child psychologist. Okay, I could help children who 63 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 4: didn't have anyone to talk to, right, And I always 64 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 4: told myself, I'm going to be there for my son. 65 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 1: And how old was your son when this tragedy happened. 66 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 3: He was less than a year old. 67 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:40,120 Speaker 4: Yeah, I was very active father though I mean, I 68 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 4: took care of him, changed his diapers, bathe him like 69 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:44,760 Speaker 4: our society should. 70 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 3: But I don't. I took care of his half brother. 71 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 3: It was five four or five. 72 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 1: So you were going to school, being a good dad. 73 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 1: But you were also involved with some not so great people. 74 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 1: I mean, in fact, you were scared bring up some 75 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 1: extra cash by stripping hobcaps in North Houston with the 76 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 1: son of an Houston cop named Michael Allan Rosario on 77 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 1: the morning that Harris County Deputy Barrett Hill was murdered. 78 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 3: Okay, I was doing student stuff, hanging on idiot people, 79 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:19,040 Speaker 3: even on a commit this murder. No, I'm responsible for 80 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 3: engaging in activity I should have known, could have lived 81 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:27,240 Speaker 3: the bad things. Then I'd be taken away from my son. 82 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 2: Today we have with us. 83 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 1: Sammy Khalil Now Sammy is a former assistant Federal Public Defender, 84 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:39,600 Speaker 1: and he's also a member of the Federal Bar Association, 85 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 1: the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers, the Harris County 86 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:46,719 Speaker 1: Criminal Lawyers Association. He's also a fellow of the Texas 87 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 1: Bar Foundation, a board member of the Texas Defenders Service, 88 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 1: and of course for quite some time now, you've been 89 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 1: a part of the legal team including Jay Hewart and 90 00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 1: Karen Otto from Arnold and Porter and to local Houston 91 00:04:59,839 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 1: A Joorney's Chad Flores and Oudam Dennell, and they're all 92 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 1: working together to have the truth come out and free 93 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:11,720 Speaker 1: Rob Will. So, Sammy, welcome to Ronfuel Conviction. Thank you, Jason, 94 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:14,600 Speaker 1: and you and I have had the opportunity to spend 95 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 1: some time together. Of course we were on Doctor Phil's 96 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:21,720 Speaker 1: show together talking about this very case, and of course 97 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 1: it starts with Rob Will's unbelievably tragic childhood where he 98 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:28,160 Speaker 1: was abused terribly. 99 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:31,480 Speaker 2: His father was murdered when he was ten, right. 100 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 3: That's right. 101 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 5: He was in and out of trouble as a kid. 102 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 5: This happened when he was twenty one. He was arrested 103 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:42,480 Speaker 5: in December two thousand and has been on death row 104 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:46,920 Speaker 5: essentially for the last two decades. What we know happened 105 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:51,760 Speaker 5: Rob and Rocky Michael Allen Rsario's nickname. We're stripping down 106 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:55,719 Speaker 5: like the hubcaps of a park vehicle in an apartment 107 00:05:55,839 --> 00:06:01,479 Speaker 5: complex in North Houston, six am, December fourth, barely rising, 108 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:06,480 Speaker 5: and a patrol vehicle arrives at the scene. Deputy Michael 109 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:10,719 Speaker 5: Kelly was in that patrol vehicle and also Deputy Barrett Hill. 110 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:17,479 Speaker 5: When they arrive, Rob and Rosario run behind several units 111 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:20,360 Speaker 5: of the apartment complex. There's kind of like a grassy 112 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:25,920 Speaker 5: alley way. They are chased. Deputy Hill follows Rob, Deputy 113 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:31,360 Speaker 5: Kelly follows Rosario. Now Rob takes a hard left through 114 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 5: an opening between two apartment units. Rocky does the same 115 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 5: thing but at the next opening, and they both proceed 116 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:43,640 Speaker 5: in the same direction on either side of this apartment unit. 117 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:47,839 Speaker 5: They both cross the street. About twenty seconds later, the 118 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 5: dispatch tates show that Deputy Hill had Rob in custody. 119 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:57,080 Speaker 5: He radios into the dispatch center saying, I have one 120 00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 5: in custody. It's undisputed that that person in custody is Rob. Meanwhile, 121 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 5: Rosario continues down a concrete, kind of overgrown driveway in 122 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:12,120 Speaker 5: this field that's on the other side of the street 123 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 5: that they both crossed, and Deputy Kelly he admitted that 124 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 5: he lost sight of Rosario at some point after Rosario 125 00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:26,400 Speaker 5: entered the concrete driveway, and we believe after Rob was 126 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 5: placed in custody by Deputy Hill, that Michael Allen Rosario 127 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 5: reached the end of that overgone driveway took a left 128 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 5: and proceeded back to the area where Rob was handcuffed 129 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 5: and in custody and murdered. Deputy Hill freed Rob of 130 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 5: the handcuffs and they both. 131 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 1: Fled, And we know that Rob was shot in the 132 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 1: process in his left hand. 133 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 5: There's no question about that. Rob's third and fourth knuckle, 134 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 5: maybe the fourth and fifth knuckle of his left hand, 135 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 5: was essentially blown off. 136 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 1: Immediately after the tragic, senseless murder of Deputy Hill, Rosario 137 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:08,480 Speaker 1: went to Rob's girlfriend's home, where he washed his clothes. 138 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 1: He'd later removed names and numbers from his address book. 139 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:12,920 Speaker 2: I mean, come on. 140 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:16,440 Speaker 1: He went on to confess to no less than five 141 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 1: separate people, who later all every one of them signed 142 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 1: a sworn affidavit. And it gets worse from there. When 143 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:26,240 Speaker 1: Rosario's family was asked to produce the clothes he had 144 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 1: been wearing on the morning of the crime, The clothes 145 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 1: had been washed, bleached, and neatly folded. These are not 146 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 1: the actions we typically would associate with someone who is innocent. 147 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 1: So back to the morning of the murder, Rob boosted 148 00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:43,679 Speaker 1: a car to get away. Now, obviously that's illegal, and 149 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:46,600 Speaker 1: he doesn't dispute that, but it doesn't make him a murderer. 150 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:47,679 Speaker 2: In fact, when he. 151 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 1: Was pulled over about an hour northwest of Houston in Brenham, Texas, 152 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:54,720 Speaker 1: he was compliant and peaceful toward the arresting officers. 153 00:08:55,880 --> 00:09:00,080 Speaker 4: The prosecutor was a creageous narrative, like, you know, oh, 154 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 4: we acted afterwards, right, but they don't even want to 155 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:02,839 Speaker 4: talk about. 156 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 3: The actual physical evidence. In my case, I think that's 157 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:05,840 Speaker 3: very important. 158 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 2: How did you act afterward? 159 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 3: I ran away? I mean I saw someone get killed. Yeah, 160 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 3: I'm running away. 161 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 2: So you're pulled over and arrested. 162 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 1: They treat your wounded left hand, They bag your hands 163 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:21,719 Speaker 1: and gloves to be tested for gunshot residue. 164 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:23,080 Speaker 2: What was going through your mind? 165 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:26,120 Speaker 3: I was pretty much in a state of trauma, right, 166 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:30,400 Speaker 3: you know, very very deserving. I didn't give any statement 167 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 3: to police things. You know, they kept trying to get me. 168 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:37,200 Speaker 4: To talk about what happened, and you know who was 169 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 4: with me, and I just didn't give any statement. 170 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:41,440 Speaker 2: How long were you in jail before trial? 171 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:43,080 Speaker 3: About a year? In a month? 172 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 1: I mean, Rob, you knew you hadn't killed that Buby Hill. 173 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:50,319 Speaker 1: But at the time, did you really think everything was 174 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 1: going to work itself out? 175 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:54,559 Speaker 4: You want to think that the system is righteous, the 176 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:57,320 Speaker 4: system is honorable, those and people in positions of power 177 00:09:57,800 --> 00:09:58,920 Speaker 4: are going to do the right thing. 178 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:01,840 Speaker 3: I mean, I didn't underst saying anything about the system 179 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 3: as a whole. I wasn't familiar with criminal justice before 180 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 3: a movement at the time. I didn't understand the problems. 181 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 4: They didn't turn over some of the main physical evidence 182 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:12,480 Speaker 4: in my case. They waited a year and month until 183 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:16,560 Speaker 4: the day before trial and just take a look at 184 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 4: the physical evidence. I mean, just like, some of the things. 185 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 3: Are so ridiculous. It's just obvious and self evident. 186 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 1: So let's talk about the physical evidence available at trial. 187 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 1: None of Deputy hillsblood was found on Rob or his clothing, 188 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 1: the same clothing from the scene that he was arrested in. 189 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 1: When Rob was arrested, his wounded left hand was treated, 190 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:42,440 Speaker 1: and his gloves and hands were bagged to be tested 191 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 1: for gunshot residue. Now that's per Josh Dubin's junk Science 192 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 1: episode about gunshot residue, which I strongly recommend, one cannot 193 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 1: conclude that the presence of antimony or barium or other 194 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:56,680 Speaker 1: elements associated with gunshot residue directly mean that a gun 195 00:10:56,760 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 1: was fired or not. It just means that those elements 196 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:03,080 Speaker 1: are present, but the source really cannot be determined. It 197 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:06,679 Speaker 1: could be cigarette ash and certain mechanical equipment, even dried urine, 198 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:09,959 Speaker 1: as well as gunshots. Of course, those things and others 199 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:13,880 Speaker 1: can all be a potential source of some of these elements. However, 200 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:16,400 Speaker 1: if none of those elements are found at all out 201 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 1: of suspect's hands or gloves, it can be said with 202 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:22,440 Speaker 1: certainty that a gun had not been fired by that 203 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:23,200 Speaker 1: person's hand. 204 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:27,840 Speaker 5: It appears to be the state's theory, was the state's 205 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 5: theory at the time of trial, that Rob had this 206 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 5: firearm before the murder, somehow, after being handcuffed or in 207 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:43,599 Speaker 5: the process of being handcuffed, shot himself handcuffed, injured himself, 208 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:50,840 Speaker 5: and somehow miraculously freed himself of these handcuffs. The problem 209 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 5: with that theory is that no gunshot residue was ever 210 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 5: found on Rob's right hand at all. 211 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:02,959 Speaker 1: So without gunshot residue on the right hand glove or 212 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:05,280 Speaker 1: his right hand, the one he would have needed to 213 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 1: shoot his own left hand, obviously, it can be said 214 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:11,720 Speaker 1: with certainty that he had not fired the gun at all. 215 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 1: Deputy Hill had not even unholstered his gun, let alone 216 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:18,480 Speaker 1: fired it, So someone else was at that crime scene 217 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 1: firing a gun. The ballistics evidence showed that Deputy Hill 218 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:25,120 Speaker 1: had been shot as close as eight inches away. Had 219 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:27,760 Speaker 1: Rob shot Deputy Hill from that range, Rob would have 220 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:31,840 Speaker 1: been covered in Deputy Hill's blood. This was not the case. 221 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 1: Rob did not have a speck of Deputy Hill's blood 222 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 1: on him, So obviously someone did shoot Deputy Hill. But 223 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:42,320 Speaker 1: all evidence points away from Rob and towards Rosario, who, 224 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:45,960 Speaker 1: by eyewitness accounts, had washed blood off of his clothing 225 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:50,760 Speaker 1: in Rob's girlfriend's sink. So how in the world did 226 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:54,560 Speaker 1: the prosecution pin this on Rob? What else did they present? 227 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 5: The dispatch records are critical. The state said that we're 228 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 5: so based on its analysis of the dispatch records, only 229 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:09,240 Speaker 5: had about eight seconds to cover about three hundred feet 230 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 5: one hundred yards, call it almost a football field. The 231 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:17,559 Speaker 5: state's position was that Rosario is not an Olympic athlete, 232 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:21,200 Speaker 5: that he can't cover that distance about three hundred feet 233 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:26,200 Speaker 5: in eight seconds. But in fact, a careful review and 234 00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:31,640 Speaker 5: analysis of the testimony at trial, matched with the dispatch 235 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 5: records that were presented at trial, show that Rossario had 236 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 5: at least anywhere from forty four seconds to a minute 237 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 5: twenty six seconds in between to reach the scene of 238 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 5: the crime. So that was not articulated well at trial. 239 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:53,240 Speaker 5: And what's critical is that Deputy Kelly in the state 240 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 5: suggested that Rosario went right went east at the end 241 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:03,079 Speaker 5: of that driveway, although Kelly has since walked back those 242 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:07,440 Speaker 5: initial intimations and at trial admitted that he didn't know 243 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 5: that he lost sight of where Rossario actually went. But 244 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 5: what was not presented at trial was this critical bloodhound 245 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:21,840 Speaker 5: dog tracking evidence that traced the scent of Michael Allen 246 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 5: Rosario shortly after the murder up this concrete driveway, and 247 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:32,080 Speaker 5: instead of to the right, which was the state's theory east, 248 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:38,360 Speaker 5: the bloodhound tracked hard west to the left, directly to 249 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:41,640 Speaker 5: the crimes. That was not presented to the jury. 250 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 1: Right, and so since these and so many more critical 251 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 1: pieces of evidence, some of which were hidden by the 252 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 1: prosecution others simply not investigated by Rob's counsel at trial, 253 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 1: since this evidence was not presented to the jury, and 254 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:58,880 Speaker 1: since Rosario couldn't possibly have made that distance in eight seconds, 255 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 1: we know that no human being could. Then, despite all 256 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 1: other evidence making Rob's guilt impossible under this false narrative, 257 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 1: Rob was the only one the state was placing at 258 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 1: the crime scene. And we know in a case like this, 259 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:15,640 Speaker 1: someone had to answer, someone had to pay for Deputy 260 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:16,400 Speaker 1: hills murder. 261 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 2: And that point was. 262 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 1: Really driven home by what is known as the wall 263 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 1: of blue. Can you talk about that? 264 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 3: Sure? 265 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:26,600 Speaker 5: Absolutely? The Herri's County Sheriff's office put out a bulletin 266 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 5: for Harris County Sheriff's deputies to appear in uniform at 267 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 5: Rob's trial, not to offer evidence, but to appear as spectators. 268 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:42,120 Speaker 5: So imagine if you are such a juror sitting to 269 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 5: pass judgment on a person whom the District Attorney's office 270 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 5: believes killed a police officer. To have a wall of 271 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 5: blue in the trial room, it sends an unmistakable message 272 00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 5: that we know who pulled the trigger. Had nothing to 273 00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:04,360 Speaker 5: do with evidence, everything to do with creating an atmosphere 274 00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 5: of prejudice and intimidush. 275 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 2: So there you are in the courtroom. 276 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:22,880 Speaker 1: Still healing from being shot in the hand, a gunshot 277 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 1: wound that the lack of gunshot residue proves conclusively that 278 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 1: you could not have inflicted on yourself. The prosecution muddy 279 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:32,720 Speaker 1: the water around how much time Rosario had to get 280 00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 1: back to the crime scene and shoot Deputy Hill from behind, 281 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 1: along with a mountain of exculpatory evidence that was either unknown, uninvestigated, 282 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 1: or most importantly hidden at the time of trial, plus 283 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:48,240 Speaker 1: the wall of blue. You were sentenced to death. Can 284 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 1: you tell us about that moment? 285 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:53,880 Speaker 3: I mean, it was a it's a pronouncement of dead. 286 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 4: Thinking back, it's just and you feel like you're out 287 00:16:57,800 --> 00:16:59,480 Speaker 4: of time and out of space. 288 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:02,160 Speaker 3: And this isn't It's like, this can't be happening. This, 289 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 3: you know, this is not real. 290 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 1: So you've been locked up since December fourth of two 291 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:11,639 Speaker 1: thousand and eventually you were sent to death row. What 292 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 1: have you been doing all this time to occupy your 293 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 1: time and keep your mind sane? 294 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:19,960 Speaker 3: Oh Man, I do a lot of reading, yoga, meditation, 295 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 3: work on art. 296 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:24,800 Speaker 1: And I encourage our audience to check out some of 297 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:27,359 Speaker 1: Rob's work. We did a show in New York with 298 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:29,600 Speaker 1: some of his artwork to support his legal battle. Just 299 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:32,240 Speaker 1: follow the link in the episode description to check it out. 300 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 1: Freerbwill dot org is the website free Robwill dot org. Now, Rob, 301 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 1: when you got here, your son was just barely two 302 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 1: years old. Have you at least gotten to see him. 303 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:43,920 Speaker 3: Oh? 304 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:46,880 Speaker 4: Well, I didn't have a lot of contact with him 305 00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:49,919 Speaker 4: because some of my relatives didn't let me have a 306 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:51,240 Speaker 4: lot of direct contact with him. 307 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:53,679 Speaker 3: So I'd write him and hope the letters would get 308 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:53,960 Speaker 3: to him. 309 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 4: Some of them did, but we didn't have a lot 310 00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:59,040 Speaker 4: of contact until he got older. He came to see 311 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:02,640 Speaker 4: me after he turned eighteen, and it's just like, wow, man, 312 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 4: you know. 313 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 3: He's like six foot what's you know? I wear a 314 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:10,200 Speaker 3: size twelve se right, you wear size thirteen. I stand 315 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:10,720 Speaker 3: up and. 316 00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:11,639 Speaker 2: He's like right here. 317 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:14,679 Speaker 4: I'm like, oh wow, okay, wow man, you know he's 318 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:17,760 Speaker 4: almost as tall as me. And it's just he's a man, 319 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:23,360 Speaker 4: you know, I mean, he's he's a man. I kind 320 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 4: of emotionally talking about this, you know, it's just like, 321 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 4: I mean, first time I held my son, I was 322 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:31,440 Speaker 4: just in tears. I'm not something like burst out in tears. 323 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:34,919 Speaker 4: I actually just became a grandfather, right, kind of emotional. 324 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:37,640 Speaker 2: What was the question, man, Well, it was just if 325 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:38,600 Speaker 2: you get to see him. 326 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 1: You know, I have kids myself, and the thought of 327 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:43,760 Speaker 1: not being able to be physically with them. 328 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:48,119 Speaker 4: There have been times where for some years when I 329 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:51,000 Speaker 4: first got here, very very very hard. There's people I 330 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 4: care about out there that I know I could be 331 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:55,040 Speaker 4: a positive influence in her life while I was out 332 00:18:55,080 --> 00:19:00,240 Speaker 4: there and worrying about that can be disturbing, say used 333 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:04,360 Speaker 4: to be disturbing, but really, I mean I went through 334 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 4: period where I did a lot of study in religion 335 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:13,720 Speaker 4: and psychology and psychoanalysis and yoga and mind body health. 336 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 3: I mean, I'm like spend weeks and weeks and weeks doing. 337 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:19,680 Speaker 4: These things, like you know, spend four or five months 338 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:23,960 Speaker 4: on one yoga post really internalizing the meaning. And one 339 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:29,040 Speaker 4: of the things that be mindful really teaches you is like, Okay, 340 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:34,240 Speaker 4: analyze events from perspective of this is not happening to me, 341 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:37,360 Speaker 4: this is happening in a larger context. 342 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 3: It's one of the. 343 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 4: Reasons why I always feel compelled to engage in so 344 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:42,480 Speaker 4: much criminal justice reform activity. 345 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:44,240 Speaker 3: Because Okay, it's not about just me. 346 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:47,560 Speaker 4: It's like I feel compelled to speak out about that 347 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 4: and to work on criminal justice form, you know. 348 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:50,920 Speaker 3: What I mean. 349 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:54,159 Speaker 1: Yeah, you've gotten a paralegal degree well in here, and 350 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:57,360 Speaker 1: you've been leading and participating in non violent protests. Can 351 00:19:57,400 --> 00:19:59,880 Speaker 1: you talk about that and how you began down this path. 352 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:03,919 Speaker 4: Oh well, it came about from very d depth study, 353 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:08,359 Speaker 4: particularly the history of resistance to British imperialism in India. 354 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:11,520 Speaker 4: And there's a book what is it, one hundred years 355 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:14,240 Speaker 4: of non violent Struggle. It showed me what it's possible, 356 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 4: and I thought, well, okay, there are guys here are innocent. 357 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:19,760 Speaker 4: There are guys here who are on the law parties 358 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:22,360 Speaker 4: who the state will tell you they've never killed anybody. 359 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:26,240 Speaker 4: But there's still there's so much bias against criminal defendits 360 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:29,119 Speaker 4: and prisoners, especially people on death row. I thought, well, 361 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:33,200 Speaker 4: let's do something different. The idea was to take the 362 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:37,720 Speaker 4: theories that were practiced in India and during the civil 363 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:42,560 Speaker 4: rights movement here and engage in non violent direct action 364 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:49,240 Speaker 4: protests to bring some of the issues that criminal justice reform. 365 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:50,920 Speaker 3: Movement is pushing on the outside to. 366 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:54,760 Speaker 4: The forefront, right from the lens of this environment, and 367 00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:58,480 Speaker 4: also to better the conditions here. Okay, So for example, 368 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 4: I mean director, right, and they come and they handcuff 369 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:06,119 Speaker 4: us and take us out, and myself and others say no, 370 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:08,720 Speaker 4: we're not coming out. They say why, I say, well, 371 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:12,000 Speaker 4: for numerous reasons. One, you have interesting people here too. 372 00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:13,600 Speaker 4: You have an interview of people here, you're trying to 373 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:17,959 Speaker 4: SQ three. We're in some highly oppressive conditions. And then 374 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 4: of course they say, well we got something for that, 375 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 4: and they bring the swat team and they gas you 376 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 4: run in there and rush you up. And also I 377 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:28,639 Speaker 4: mean to be feared to have members. Yeah, they're a 378 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 4: violent prisoners here, but yeah, they react with violence to 379 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:32,880 Speaker 4: non violence. 380 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:36,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, I've seen those videos. It's hard to believe that 381 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 2: you actually lived that. 382 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:41,639 Speaker 4: Oh yeah, they hit me with Now, this gas is 383 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:44,720 Speaker 4: for rare control. It's for like twenty to thirty people. 384 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:46,879 Speaker 4: You're not even supposed to use this in themself. They 385 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:48,200 Speaker 4: hit me with it, and that's why, I mean, I 386 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:51,719 Speaker 4: start convulsing, you know. Yeah, it went on for an 387 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:55,920 Speaker 4: hour of gasing. I almost died actually, But hey, we're 388 00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:57,359 Speaker 4: sitting here talking about it right now. 389 00:21:57,320 --> 00:21:59,080 Speaker 2: Right, yes we are. 390 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:01,760 Speaker 1: And I guess your perspective about death might be a 391 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:03,320 Speaker 1: little different from insight here. 392 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:06,280 Speaker 2: Do you think about it a lot? Death? 393 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:07,160 Speaker 3: You know what? 394 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 4: Yeah, I made myself. I mean I made myself. You 395 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:14,280 Speaker 4: got to like Mento moy right, But he was an 396 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:19,360 Speaker 4: interesting thing. And various religious schools and mystic schools they 397 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:22,560 Speaker 4: have sacred rights of like fake death right, like even 398 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:27,960 Speaker 4: with Freemasons, they have a symbolic death. Okay, it's mental more, 399 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 4: remember mortality, right, And I mean you could wallow and 400 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:36,760 Speaker 4: fear and just be let that break you, which I've 401 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:39,880 Speaker 4: seen dudes go insane. Or you could say, all right, 402 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:43,640 Speaker 4: what does that mean understanding death? And the conclusion I've 403 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 4: come to is like, live life, man, live life, you 404 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 4: know what I mean? 405 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 3: This is just beauty everywhere everywhere? Like, how was listened 406 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 3: to some cold chain John? Just listen to some John Coltrane. 407 00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 4: Man, how can you be sad listening to John Coletrane? 408 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:03,640 Speaker 4: He's like a mystic sorcerer, you know what I mean? 409 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:07,440 Speaker 4: And again his perspective, there's a lot of yoga meditation. 410 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:07,720 Speaker 3: Man. 411 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 1: Well that sounds like a good formula for survival anywhere, 412 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:16,159 Speaker 1: including on the outside. Do you allow yourself hope for 413 00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:18,080 Speaker 1: being on the outside again one day? 414 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:22,119 Speaker 4: Oh man, I've been knocked up almost twenty years. I 415 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:25,160 Speaker 4: mean I have faith in right, then will be done. 416 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:27,240 Speaker 4: Someone's gonna make this right. 417 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:34,640 Speaker 2: So Sammy, how long have you been representing? 418 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:35,080 Speaker 4: Robin? 419 00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:38,000 Speaker 5: The federal judge here in Texas appointed me in January 420 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 5: of twenty twelve to take over Rob's case. Judge Ellison 421 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:49,119 Speaker 5: described a case containing what he called disturbing uncertainties, and 422 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,240 Speaker 5: at that time the federal judge expressed what he called 423 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:58,440 Speaker 5: his deeply felt concerns about the substantial evidence of actual 424 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:03,200 Speaker 5: innocence on the part of Rob will errors of grave 425 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 5: proportion at the initial trial. So that's the situation I 426 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:12,320 Speaker 5: found myself walking into when this federal judge asked me 427 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:16,680 Speaker 5: to take over Rob's case. And look from the very 428 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:22,080 Speaker 5: beginning all the way through the appellate process, what actually 429 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 5: has happened. 430 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:26,560 Speaker 1: Can you tell us about the ridiculous state havieous appeal, 431 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:28,840 Speaker 1: which is of course the round of appeal before you 432 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:32,320 Speaker 1: were appointed by Judge Allison. Tell us what this appellate 433 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:34,720 Speaker 1: attorney did and how damaging it was. 434 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:40,399 Speaker 5: I Will Rob was appointed a lawyer who essentially cut 435 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:44,639 Speaker 5: and pasted a brief that he had filed in a 436 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 5: different death penalty case into Rob's brief. So this lawyer 437 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:55,200 Speaker 5: should have done what any reasonably competent state habeas lawyer 438 00:24:55,520 --> 00:25:00,680 Speaker 5: would do, go back out and reinvestigate the case, look 439 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:05,560 Speaker 5: at witnesses that should have been called, evidence that wasn't produced, 440 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:10,720 Speaker 5: carefully analyze what's in the state's file, do the analysis 441 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:13,280 Speaker 5: of the timeline that we have now done, look at 442 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:17,919 Speaker 5: the forensic evidence, look at Michael Allen Brosaria, go through 443 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:22,879 Speaker 5: the police records his statements. You would have uncovered multiple 444 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:26,439 Speaker 5: lives were Sario made to the police, including denying that 445 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:28,880 Speaker 5: he'd ever been there, that he even knew rob and 446 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,119 Speaker 5: that he had handled the gun just before the murder. 447 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:36,479 Speaker 5: Forsario's behavior post murder was deeply suspicious and points to 448 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 5: consciousness of guilt. For example, he did go back to 449 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 5: this apartment the morning of the murder. He told a 450 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:48,679 Speaker 5: witness by the name of Natasha Halien that as he 451 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 5: was washing his clothes in the kitchen sink of the apartment, 452 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:55,600 Speaker 5: he made a statement that the blood just came off. 453 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 5: The DA's office moved the trial court to block that's 454 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:04,040 Speaker 5: satement from Natasha Haleian from coming into evidence for the 455 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 5: jury's consideration. That is the evidence that Judge Ellison, in 456 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:13,400 Speaker 5: the third round of appeals has now pointed to as 457 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:18,119 Speaker 5: evidence that should have been presented. That's just one example 458 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:22,800 Speaker 5: of Rosario's suspicious behavior after the murder. These are all 459 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:26,800 Speaker 5: issues that should have been investigated that we have uncovered 460 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:28,240 Speaker 5: since twenty twelve. 461 00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 1: So let's just quickly recap some of those issues and 462 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:34,560 Speaker 1: evidence that we've already mentioned. No gunshot residue on the 463 00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:36,960 Speaker 1: glove or hand that Rob would have needed to shoot 464 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:40,280 Speaker 1: himself and Deputy Hill. None of Deputy Hill's blood or 465 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:42,640 Speaker 1: DNA on Rob, which should have been the case since 466 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:45,879 Speaker 1: Deputy Hill was shot at close range. The analysis of 467 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 1: the dispatch transcripts and sworn testimony that shows that Rosario 468 00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:51,359 Speaker 1: had plenty of time to return to the scene and 469 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:55,440 Speaker 1: murder Deputy Hill, the bloodhound tracking evidence that also supports 470 00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:58,320 Speaker 1: Rob's version of events, a slew of witnesses who have 471 00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:02,640 Speaker 1: signed Affidavid's claiming that Rosario admitted to the murder, as 472 00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:05,520 Speaker 1: well as the statement from Natasha Haley and claiming that 473 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:08,919 Speaker 1: Rosario talked about how the blood just came out of 474 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:11,600 Speaker 1: the pants as he was watching them in our kitchen sink. 475 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:14,280 Speaker 1: Then there's all of Rosario's lies to the police, which 476 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:18,320 Speaker 1: include denying having been there at all, denying even knowing 477 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:21,480 Speaker 1: Rob Will, and last but not least, denying having ever 478 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:25,120 Speaker 1: touched the gun, only to admit having handled the gun 479 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 1: just before the murder. I mean this should be more 480 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 1: than enough, but there's even more. 481 00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 5: We've uncovered a new witness, David Cruz, who says that 482 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:37,960 Speaker 5: Michael Allan Rosario confessed to the murder, but that he 483 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:43,240 Speaker 5: was going to blame Rob Will. And we've uncovered the 484 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:47,720 Speaker 5: smoking gun. We've discovered police records that show that Michael 485 00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:53,720 Speaker 5: Allen Rosario approached the Texas Syndicate Gang and David Cruz 486 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:58,040 Speaker 5: to have Rob Will, the only eyewitness to his crime 487 00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:02,760 Speaker 5: killed after the There's nothing more suspicious than trying to 488 00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:06,960 Speaker 5: have someone killed postcrime. The State of Texas knew about 489 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:11,119 Speaker 5: this document. The District Attorney's office knew about this document, 490 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:16,159 Speaker 5: but they inexplicably concealed it from Rob's defense team. In fact, 491 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:20,920 Speaker 5: pre trial, days before the beginning of jury selection, Deputy Strickland, 492 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:25,639 Speaker 5: who authored this document, represented to the court under oath 493 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:30,160 Speaker 5: that he had no information relating to Rob Will's case. 494 00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:32,960 Speaker 1: I mean, why would the authorities be seeming to protect 495 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:36,000 Speaker 1: an individual who, by all appearances, seems to have been 496 00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:37,840 Speaker 1: the actual murder of a police officer. 497 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 5: Michael Allen Rosario is someone who has been in trouble 498 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:46,000 Speaker 5: with the law since a very young age, and seemingly 499 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:51,480 Speaker 5: he has been protected. Rosario before the crime and also 500 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,880 Speaker 5: after he and Rob were arrested, appeared to believe that 501 00:28:55,000 --> 00:29:00,440 Speaker 5: his dad was a shield from prosecution. He made statements toilers, 502 00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:06,080 Speaker 5: in particular Deputy Patricia Shaffani, that he was essentially invincible. 503 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:10,440 Speaker 5: That too, is another police record or jail record that 504 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:13,560 Speaker 5: was never disclosed to Rob's defense team. 505 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:16,960 Speaker 1: Yeall, this is not some fly by night person. This 506 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:20,880 Speaker 1: is an actual police official who's prepared to come forward 507 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 1: with this very damning evidence. 508 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:26,120 Speaker 5: And what we have been fighting for is a new 509 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:30,040 Speaker 5: trial to present all of the evidence that we have 510 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 5: uncovered over the last eight years. 511 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:34,960 Speaker 2: And I understand there's been some progress on that front. 512 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:38,080 Speaker 5: There has been some movement on that front. After a 513 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:42,680 Speaker 5: long struggle. On August fifth of twenty twenty, the United 514 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:46,080 Speaker 5: States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit sent the 515 00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:51,480 Speaker 5: case back to Judge Ellison so he could further explore 516 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:57,240 Speaker 5: this key exculpatory evidence that was withheld from Rob's trial lawyers. 517 00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:01,360 Speaker 5: In fact, they quote him at in certain parts of 518 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:06,920 Speaker 5: their opinion that there are disturbing uncertainties, a total absence 519 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:12,920 Speaker 5: of eyewitness testimony or strongly probative forensic evidence, and considerable 520 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:17,680 Speaker 5: evidence supporting Will's innocence, and then the Fifth Circuit goes 521 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:22,160 Speaker 5: on to say that there were disturbing uncertainties of Will's 522 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:27,480 Speaker 5: culpability even before the introduction of the withheld evidence. Now, 523 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:30,800 Speaker 5: with the new evidence in hand, the uncertainties are even 524 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:34,959 Speaker 5: more disturbed. In addition to all of that, the Fifth 525 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:40,280 Speaker 5: Circuit stated that Rob Will has now demonstrated that it 526 00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:45,920 Speaker 5: is reasonably likely that after hearing the new evidence alongside 527 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:51,240 Speaker 5: the old evidence, every reasonable juror would have some level 528 00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:54,480 Speaker 5: of reasonable doubt. 529 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:07,160 Speaker 3: I'm absolutely innocent. This isn't some ridiculous game or anything. 530 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 4: And I want people to really really realize this, and 531 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:14,080 Speaker 4: I take the time to look at the evidence, because yes, 532 00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:16,800 Speaker 4: it's about me, but it's about my family and it's 533 00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:19,800 Speaker 4: about the criminal justice system as a whole. You know, 534 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:24,840 Speaker 4: there are law professors who are like academic commentators who say, well, yeah, 535 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:26,800 Speaker 4: we probably executed four. 536 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:29,880 Speaker 3: Or five incent people in Texas. It's not okay. It's 537 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:30,800 Speaker 3: not okay. 538 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:36,240 Speaker 4: It is not okay, it is not okay at all. 539 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:39,680 Speaker 1: Well, Rob, you're definitely appreciation of the choir here. I 540 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 1: can't even count the number of times I've said this 541 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:45,800 Speaker 1: while arguing against people who believe in the death penalty. 542 00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:49,920 Speaker 1: I mean, how many innocent people is it okay to execute? Like, 543 00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:51,760 Speaker 1: do you know any other innocent guys that are in 544 00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:52,640 Speaker 1: there with you right now? 545 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:54,280 Speaker 3: Well, I'll tell you this. 546 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:56,360 Speaker 4: When I first got here, I thought I was the 547 00:31:56,400 --> 00:32:00,480 Speaker 4: only one, right, But then it's like, oh wow, another 548 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:04,040 Speaker 4: guy generted, Oh wow, ah, another exoneration is just like 549 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:05,840 Speaker 4: it's just ridiculous, you know. 550 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:06,280 Speaker 3: What I mean. 551 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:10,240 Speaker 4: I think maybe one of the things is like I 552 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:12,480 Speaker 4: read so much and I study so much. I think 553 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:14,520 Speaker 4: I've always kind of been like that. But it's a 554 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:22,000 Speaker 4: compulsion to understand society and understand the system and understand more. 555 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:25,800 Speaker 3: Of the intricacies of life. And also I feel feel 556 00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:31,040 Speaker 3: deepropulsion to really let people understand the system man, and 557 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:35,720 Speaker 3: understand how it truly works. And one of. 558 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 4: The reasons why I fight so hard is because I 559 00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:39,479 Speaker 4: have a vision of doing the type of works Anthony 560 00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:41,719 Speaker 4: Graves has done since he's been released. 561 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:43,280 Speaker 3: Anthony Graves was a really good dude. 562 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:47,840 Speaker 4: He was generated here five six years ago, and he 563 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:52,400 Speaker 4: is like a shining example of what the foreign incarcerated, 564 00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:54,280 Speaker 4: especially those who are exonerated. 565 00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:55,160 Speaker 2: Should be well. 566 00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:59,600 Speaker 1: Rob even if you're not out yet you have already 567 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:04,200 Speaker 1: showing yourself to be that shining example through your artwork, 568 00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:08,080 Speaker 1: through your spirit, through what you've been able to accomplish 569 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:11,080 Speaker 1: from behind bars, not only in the realm of criminal 570 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:14,520 Speaker 1: justice and prison reform, but also in just the man 571 00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:17,880 Speaker 1: that you have become against all odds. 572 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 2: So thank you so much for talking to me today. 573 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:22,320 Speaker 3: Thank you. 574 00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:26,080 Speaker 1: We're not here for any reason other than to try 575 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:28,120 Speaker 1: to have the truth come out, not just for Rob 576 00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:30,480 Speaker 1: and for his family, but also for the family of 577 00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:34,520 Speaker 1: the murdered officer and for his memory. It was a 578 00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:38,240 Speaker 1: senseless crime that never should have happened, but Rob didn't 579 00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:40,280 Speaker 1: do it and he shouldn't be in prison for it. 580 00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:42,840 Speaker 1: We're going to need all the support we can get 581 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:44,960 Speaker 1: from anyone and everyone who could lend their voice to 582 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:47,440 Speaker 1: this issue. So if you haven't done so already, please 583 00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:50,000 Speaker 1: check out the Rolling Stone article about this case and 584 00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:54,040 Speaker 1: go to Freerobwill dot org to learn more. You can 585 00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:56,360 Speaker 1: also sign a petition for a new trial for Rob 586 00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:59,920 Speaker 1: at change dot org. All of these action steps will 587 00:33:59,920 --> 00:34:02,440 Speaker 1: be linked in the episode bio, so just scroll down, 588 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:04,880 Speaker 1: learn more and get involved. 589 00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:06,520 Speaker 2: And Sammy, we. 590 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:08,359 Speaker 1: Have a feature of this show that has come to 591 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:10,680 Speaker 1: be my favorite part of the show, and I think 592 00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:13,760 Speaker 1: a lot of the audience shares my feelings on it. It's 593 00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:17,200 Speaker 1: a segment we call closing arguments, and basically it's just 594 00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:21,360 Speaker 1: where I get to once again thank you for being here, 595 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:25,160 Speaker 1: and then turn my microphone off and just kick back, 596 00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:29,960 Speaker 1: close my eyes and listen to you with any closing 597 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:31,360 Speaker 1: thoughts that you want to share. 598 00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:34,800 Speaker 5: Well, Jason, thank you again. Thank you for your commitment 599 00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:39,480 Speaker 5: to criminal justice reform, your interest in the death penalty 600 00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:43,800 Speaker 5: and reforming and hopefully one day abolishing the death penalty. 601 00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:47,640 Speaker 5: And thank you in particular for your interest in Rob's case, 602 00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:51,239 Speaker 5: Doctor Phil He deserves a lot of credit. These are 603 00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:54,760 Speaker 5: not easy cases. We have a slang police officer and 604 00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:58,600 Speaker 5: people don't want to be associated with that. But what 605 00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:02,160 Speaker 5: we need is is for the truth to come out. 606 00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:06,240 Speaker 5: All we're asking, if you're gonna seek the death penalty 607 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:09,920 Speaker 5: against someone, let's make it a fair fight. Don't hide evidence, 608 00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:14,560 Speaker 5: don't conceal evidence. Live up to your obligations you have 609 00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:19,560 Speaker 5: to under the Constitution, under the Supreme Courts nineteen sixty 610 00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:25,360 Speaker 5: three case Brady versus Maryland, turnover disclose to the defense 611 00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:32,680 Speaker 5: favorable evidence. Why if you don't innocent people like Rob 612 00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:36,640 Speaker 5: end up on death row. So we need another trial 613 00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:40,000 Speaker 5: where the jury hears the whole story, not just half 614 00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:43,680 Speaker 5: of the story. We need another trial where the DA's 615 00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:48,200 Speaker 5: office lives up to its constitutional and ethical obligations to 616 00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:53,600 Speaker 5: turn over favorable evidence before the trial, not thirteen fourteen 617 00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:58,400 Speaker 5: years afterwards, when the appellate process is so restrictive in 618 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,239 Speaker 5: terms of what judge can do. We need to get 619 00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:06,520 Speaker 5: a new trial that's fair, that's just where the DA's 620 00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:10,400 Speaker 5: office placed by the rules, where they don't hide or 621 00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:14,520 Speaker 5: conceal that. Thank you, Joseon Rob. 622 00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:17,879 Speaker 3: I think that people need to understand that I truly 623 00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:20,719 Speaker 3: am innocent in my case. Yes, it's about me and 624 00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:24,120 Speaker 3: my family, but it's also about the criminal justice system 625 00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:30,120 Speaker 3: as a whole. And everybody needs to realize the truth 626 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:33,680 Speaker 3: of the evidence in my case and also understand that 627 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:39,160 Speaker 3: it should be a microscope. 628 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:42,719 Speaker 4: With which to examine the intricacies of the criminal justice system. 629 00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:46,440 Speaker 4: And I hope people will feel compelled to get involved 630 00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:50,280 Speaker 4: in criminal justice reform. 631 00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:57,320 Speaker 6: Oh, everybody, go on the internet and google John Coltrane interview, 632 00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:00,840 Speaker 6: Go listen to Love Supreme, listen to John Cole train Man, and. 633 00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:11,200 Speaker 3: You're gonna be happy, huh. 634 00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:13,960 Speaker 1: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you 635 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:15,080 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. 636 00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:16,080 Speaker 2: It really helps. 637 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:19,360 Speaker 1: And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence Project and 638 00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:22,120 Speaker 1: I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very 639 00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:26,240 Speaker 1: important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions before 640 00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:29,520 Speaker 1: they happen. Go to Innocence Project dot org to learn 641 00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:32,239 Speaker 1: how to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank 642 00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:35,720 Speaker 1: our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music 643 00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:38,279 Speaker 1: in the show is by three time OSCAR nominated. 644 00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:40,040 Speaker 2: Composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to. 645 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:43,600 Speaker 1: Follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook 646 00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:47,640 Speaker 1: at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flahm is 647 00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:51,160 Speaker 1: a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with 648 00:37:51,280 --> 00:38:00,760 Speaker 1: Signal Company Number one