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Speaker 1: Hi Brian, Hi Katie, and hello listeners, wonderful listeners. The

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Speaker 1: time has come. The first episode of my new documentary

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Speaker 1: series on nat Gio America, Inside Out, is out in

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Speaker 1: the world. For those of you who are interested, you

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Speaker 1: can watch it on National Geographic at ten pm for

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Speaker 1: the next several Wednesdays, or on the NATCHIO channel website,

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Speaker 1: which is channel dot National Geographic dot com. Full episodes

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Speaker 1: will also be available on who the day after they air,

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Speaker 1: or you can find them on YouTube and Facebook until

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Speaker 1: mid May. So get them while they're hot, people. You know,

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Speaker 1: I'm very excited about this series. I hope people will watch,

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Speaker 1: and more importantly, that there will be a springboard for

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Speaker 1: important conversations we just don't seem to be having in

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Speaker 1: this country, Katie. As we mentioned last week, the first

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Speaker 1: episode of the series is about how we approach the

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Speaker 1: history and the future of race in this country, a

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Speaker 1: pretty fraught topic. It includes the debate over the hundreds

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Speaker 1: of Confederate monuments around the country. The episode really uses

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Speaker 1: Confederate statues as a conversation starter because they stand for

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Speaker 1: so much and they're more than what they appear. If

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Speaker 1: you understand when they were put up and what they

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Speaker 1: symbolize to many people. It really broadens your understanding of

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Speaker 1: the issue of race and of history. And there are

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Speaker 1: more than six hundred and fifty of them throughout the country,

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Speaker 1: particularly in the South. You and I have talked about

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Speaker 1: this issue before in our podcast with New Orleans Mayor

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Speaker 1: Mitch Landrew. He was on the pod last June and

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Speaker 1: episode thirty three, and I highly recommend that show. He

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Speaker 1: was also in this episode of my Natio series. He

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Speaker 1: told me he got death threats after the New Orleans

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Speaker 1: City Council voted to remove four of those Confederate statues

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Speaker 1: in the city. And there's a pretty chilling thing he

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Speaker 1: told me in the documentary, Brian, Yeah, one scene in

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Speaker 1: the doc really jumped out at me. May Landrew said

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Speaker 1: that three of the statues were taken down at night

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Speaker 1: on the advice of security personnel, who basically said it's

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Speaker 1: harder to get shot by a sniper at night. It's

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Speaker 1: a very explosive issue, and as I said, it's about

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Speaker 1: much more than statues. It's about who we are, what

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Speaker 1: we stand for, what we believe in the history we've acknowledged.

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Speaker 1: So in this episode, I wanted to understand over one

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Speaker 1: hundred and fifty years after the Civil War? Why is

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Speaker 1: there so much intense emotion over these monuments? Which brings us,

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Speaker 1: of course, to today's guest, Brian Stevenson. Katie. I know

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Speaker 1: you're a very big fan, so huge fan. He's featured

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Speaker 1: in your nat GEO doc and for very good reason.

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Speaker 1: He spent his career fighting injustice in our legal system.

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Speaker 1: He's a lawyer who successfully argued cases in front of

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Speaker 1: the Supreme Court, and he's also head of the Equal

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Speaker 1: Justice Initiative down in Montgomery, Alabama, which is an organization

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Speaker 1: he founded as a young man. He's so written a

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Speaker 1: wonderful book called Just Mercy, which I highly recommend. And

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Speaker 1: we wanted to include Brian in the documentary and then

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Speaker 1: talk to him more today on the podcast because he

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Speaker 1: is really, among other things, making it his mission to

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Speaker 1: make sure there are things about our past that are

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Speaker 1: not swept under the rug, that are painful, things that

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Speaker 1: we all need to acknowledge before we're able to move forward.

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Speaker 1: I am thrilled that he is able to join us.

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Speaker 1: I've interviewed many people over the years, but he's been

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Speaker 1: a career highlight for me and I admire him deeply.

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Speaker 1: So we talked with Brian about America's history of slavery

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Speaker 1: and racial violence, about his own experiences with school segregation

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Speaker 1: as a child, and about the new museum and memorial

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Speaker 1: that he's helping to open later this month, and about

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Speaker 1: the purpose he really hopes that they serve in bringing

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Speaker 1: us together as a country. Absolutely, So we started by

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Speaker 1: asking him to tell us about the Equal Justice Initiative,

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Speaker 1: the organization he started building in We're a private, nonprofit

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Speaker 1: law office. It grew out of a desperate need in

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Speaker 1: Alabama to provide legal services to people on death row.

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Speaker 1: Alabama doesn't have a public defender system, and there were

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Speaker 1: nearly a hundred condemned prisoners literally dying for legal assistance

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Speaker 1: in the nineteen eighties, and so we started this project

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Speaker 1: to meet that need, and it's grown and expanded over

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Speaker 1: the last thirty years. We began working on other cases

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Speaker 1: involving wrongful convictions and unfair sentences. We started challenging the

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Speaker 1: problems of the poor in our legal system. I really

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Speaker 1: do believe we have a criminal justice system that treats

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Speaker 1: you better if you're rich and guilty then if you're

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Speaker 1: poor and innocent. We've grown, we we've done work on children.

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Speaker 1: We were working on behalf of the mentally ill. It's

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Speaker 1: been focused on criminal justice reform, and then about ten

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Speaker 1: years ago we began taking on these bigger projects of

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Speaker 1: race and poverty more broadly. And you've argued before the

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Speaker 1: Supreme Court on a number of occasions and really changed

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Speaker 1: our interpretation of the Constitution to protect particularly young people

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Speaker 1: who are charged with crimes and either sentence to the

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Speaker 1: death penalty or to life without parole. Yeah, I take

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Speaker 1: really seriously the constitutional prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment.

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Speaker 1: It's a part of our constitution that isn't as developed

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Speaker 1: as I think it should be. And so yes, we

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Speaker 1: have been challenging what we perceived to be excessive punishment,

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Speaker 1: unfair sentencing uh in many of our states. And one

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Speaker 1: of those issues that took me to the Supreme Court

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Speaker 1: a couple of times is what we're doing to children.

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Speaker 1: The United States had three thousand children sentenced to die

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Speaker 1: in prison, some as young as thirteen years of age.

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Speaker 1: A life without parole sentence is a sentence that basically says,

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Speaker 1: you're never going to be safe, You're never going to

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Speaker 1: be uh, someone we can release. You're beyond hope you're

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Speaker 1: you're beyond ride emption, and I just think that's just

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Speaker 1: not true for any child. It may be that that

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Speaker 1: child doesn't get to the point where we can release them,

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Speaker 1: but to condemn them before they've evolved, before they've grown,

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Speaker 1: was for me fundamentally at odds with what we know

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Speaker 1: about children. It's the reason why we don't let them vote,

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Speaker 1: we don't let them smoke, we don't let them drink.

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Speaker 1: We know that there's a point that they haven't reached

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Speaker 1: yet to make those choices, but we weren't honoring that

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Speaker 1: in the criminal justice system, and so we took that

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Speaker 1: case of the court, and the Court has now banned

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Speaker 1: mandatory life without role sentences for children. We're trying to

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Speaker 1: still protect children in other ways. On any given day,

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Speaker 1: there are some ten thousand children housed in adult jails

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Speaker 1: in prisons, and those kids are at great risk of

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Speaker 1: sexual violence and abuse. And so we still have a

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Speaker 1: lot of work to do, but we have been pushing

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Speaker 1: hard to help particularly vulnerable communities in our criminal justice system.

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Speaker 1: In many ways you talk about mass incarceration, Brian is

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Speaker 1: sort of part of this long tail of history and

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Speaker 1: one of the byproducts of slavery and how it is

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Speaker 1: morphed into things like mass incarceration and the death penalty.

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Speaker 1: Can you explain that to our listeners? Sure. I think

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Speaker 1: we have a history of racial inequality in this country

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Speaker 1: that we've been largely silent about, and it makes us

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Speaker 1: indifferent uh to racial bias and racial discrimination. Today, the

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Speaker 1: Bureau of Justice predicts that one in three blackmail babies

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Speaker 1: born in this country is expected to go to jail

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Speaker 1: or prison. And that's not perceived as a crisis. It's

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Speaker 1: not a political issue. Elected officials aren't talking about it.

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Speaker 1: And I think the reason why we haven't responded to

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Speaker 1: that as a tragedy in the way that I think

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Speaker 1: we should is because we have been acculturated to just

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Speaker 1: accept a certain amount of racial bias, a certain amount

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Speaker 1: of racial disparity. And I think the legacy of our

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Speaker 1: history of racial inequality has compromised us. I really do

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Speaker 1: think we are breathing in a kind of small kind

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Speaker 1: of pollution that has left us less healthy when it

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Speaker 1: comes to confronting bias and discrimination. And I actually believe

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Speaker 1: it begins with the genocide of Native Americans. We are

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Speaker 1: a post genocide society when Native people came when Europeans

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Speaker 1: came to this continent, we killed millions of Native people.

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Speaker 1: It was a genocide, but we didn't call it that.

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Speaker 1: We said these Native people are different. We said Native

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Speaker 1: people were savages, and through that language we were comfortable

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Speaker 1: with removing them from their lands and killing them by

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Speaker 1: the millions. It was that same narrative that made us

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Speaker 1: comfortable with enslaving Black Africans. And I don't think that

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Speaker 1: the great evil of American slavery was involuntary servitude of

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Speaker 1: forced labor. I think it was this narrative of racial

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Speaker 1: racial difference, this ideology of white supremacy, and we never

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Speaker 1: dealt with that. If you read the thirteenth Amendment, it

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Speaker 1: talks about ending forced labor, involuntary servitude, but it doesn't

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Speaker 1: say anything about ending this narrative of racial difference. And

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Speaker 1: because of that, I've argued that slavery didn't end in

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Speaker 1: eighteen sixty five. It just evolved, and that created this

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Speaker 1: era of racial terrorism. And from the eighteen seventies until

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Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties, thousands of black people were pulled out

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Speaker 1: of their homes. They were drowned, they were beaten, they

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Speaker 1: were hanged, they were burned, they were tortured, sometimes literally

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Speaker 1: on the courthouse lawn in front of thousands who cheered,

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Speaker 1: and that spectacle violence, that terrorism was something we didn't

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Speaker 1: really confront And then we moved from that era uh

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Speaker 1: into the civil rights era, and we celebrate the civil

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Speaker 1: rights activism of Dr King and Rosa Parks, but we

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Speaker 1: don't talk about the deep commitment to resisting integration to

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Speaker 1: all of those elect officials who were preaching segregation, forever,

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Speaker 1: segregation or war. Even though we want passage of the

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Speaker 1: Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act, that narrative

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Speaker 1: of racial difference persisted, and today we live at a

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Speaker 1: time where that narrative is still alive. There is a

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Speaker 1: presumption of dangerousness and guilt that gets assigned to black

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Speaker 1: and brown people, which is why mass incarceration and the

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Speaker 1: modern criminal justice system reflects this continuing legacy. It's the

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Speaker 1: reason why black and brown people feel so menaced and

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Speaker 1: targeted by the police, why there's anger and frustration when

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Speaker 1: unarmed people of color are killed by the police. And

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Speaker 1: I don't think we can understand these issues without understanding

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Speaker 1: this historical legacy. I know you believe, Brian, as I

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Speaker 1: do that we can't really make progress. We can't even

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Speaker 1: begin to have conversations about some of these issues if

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Speaker 1: we don't acknowledge that they happened. So let's talk about

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Speaker 1: the ways you're doing that with the opening this month

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Speaker 1: in April of the Legacy Museum and the National Memorial

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Speaker 1: for Peace and Justice. So let's just talk about those

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Speaker 1: two projects and and why they're so important. First, let's

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Speaker 1: talk about the Lynching project. How did that start? Why

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Speaker 1: did you want to you that? And what was that

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Speaker 1: like putting it together? Well, first of all, thank you

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Speaker 1: for that, um, that question, Katie, and and that reflection.

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Speaker 1: I do agree that we have some work to do

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Speaker 1: in this country to make our history more evident, to

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Speaker 1: make it understood. And um, the work we started doing

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Speaker 1: on lynching was in response to that. UM. I live

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Speaker 1: in a region where thousands of black people were brutalized,

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Speaker 1: were tortured, uh, and we haven't acknowledged that history. It

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Speaker 1: was terrorism. And older people of color come up to

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Speaker 1: me sometimes and they say, Mr Stevenson, I get angry

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Speaker 1: when I hear somebody on TV talking about how we're

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Speaker 1: dealing with domestic terrorism for the first time in our

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Speaker 1: nation's history. After nine eleven. They said, we grew up

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Speaker 1: with terror. We had to wear about being bombed and

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Speaker 1: lynched and menaced every day of our lives, and that

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Speaker 1: legacy isn't something we've confronted or discussed. The black people

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Speaker 1: in Chicago and Cleveland and Detroit didn't go to those

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Speaker 1: communities as immigrants looking for new economic opportunities. They went

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Speaker 1: to those communities as refugees and exiles from terror in

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Speaker 1: the American South. And so we wanted to first document

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Speaker 1: this history. So we spent five years combing through archives

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Speaker 1: gathering evidence about lynchings. We identified about eight hundred more

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Speaker 1: lynchings than prior researchers had uncovered, and we put out

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Speaker 1: a report. And then we wanted to make this research

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Speaker 1: accessible to people in public spaces and visible exactly, and

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Speaker 1: so we started putting up markers at lynching sites. And

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Speaker 1: then we had this idea of involving more people, of

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Speaker 1: inviting community groups and members to go to lynching sites,

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Speaker 1: to collect soil at the lynching site, to put it

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Speaker 1: in a jar with the name of a lynching victim

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Speaker 1: and the date of the lynching, and then to make

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Speaker 1: a reflection. And we've now collected hundreds of jars of

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Speaker 1: soil from lynching sites, and black people and white people

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Speaker 1: and young people in old people have played a role

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Speaker 1: in creating a new visual of what this history represents.

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Speaker 1: And you saw the exhibit in our office, a wall

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Speaker 1: full of jars. Oh my gosh, it's so it's just

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Speaker 1: extrat They're so unbelievably moving in their simplicity. And you

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Speaker 1: can see the different soil from different regions of Alabama

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Speaker 1: and other Southern states, which in many ways I know

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Speaker 1: I wrote about this in National Geographic. Each jar tells

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Speaker 1: a story, not only a story of a human being,

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Speaker 1: but a story of the circumstances or where this happened.

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Speaker 1: And some of these stories are so moving. There's one

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Speaker 1: that I keep thinking about, Brian, that you told me

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Speaker 1: about about a school teacher who who scolded some some boys.

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Speaker 1: Can you explain that story for us? Sure? No, I

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Speaker 1: think the stories are really important. Katie and Elizabeth Lawrence

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Speaker 1: was a Birmingham school teacher working with black children because

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Speaker 1: of course the schools were segregated it and she was

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Speaker 1: walking home one night when a group of white kids

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Speaker 1: began throwing stones at her, and she did what any

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Speaker 1: responsible adult would do. She turned to the children and said,

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Speaker 1: don't throw stones at people. And the children went home

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Speaker 1: and told their parents that this black woman had scolded them.

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Speaker 1: And the parents were offended at the idea that a

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Speaker 1: black person would correct their children, and so they organized

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Speaker 1: a mob. They went to the home of Elizabeth Lawrence

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Speaker 1: and they lynched her. Uh Brian, didn't they burn her

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Speaker 1: house down? To Yes, when her son tried to uh

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Speaker 1: complain about it, they burned her house down. They ran

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Speaker 1: him out of the state. He fled to Boston. And

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Speaker 1: the pain of these kinds of events, which happened all

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Speaker 1: the time, is all of the students of Elizabeth Lawrence,

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Speaker 1: all of the neighbors, all of the black people who

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Speaker 1: looked up to her and respected her and admired her

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Speaker 1: and loved her for trying to educate their children, they

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Speaker 1: were required to be silent about the violent that took

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Speaker 1: her life, because if you complained about lynching, then you

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Speaker 1: would be targeted. I think also people think that lynching

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Speaker 1: automatically means someone is hung from a tree, because that

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Speaker 1: symbol has been so emblazoned in our consciousness. But in

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Speaker 1: this case, they just brutally beat her. Yes, that's right.

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Speaker 1: Many lynchings involved beating someone to death. We have accounts

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Speaker 1: of lynchings where people were burned at the stake, We

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Speaker 1: have accounts where people were drowned. We have accounts of

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Speaker 1: people who were shot, sometimes hundreds of times by a

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Speaker 1: crowd of a thousand. Well, and crowd is a really

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Speaker 1: interesting point, because these things didn't happen, you know, with

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Speaker 1: a few guys gathered around in secret. Often these lynchings

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Speaker 1: occurred in the town square with hundreds or even thousands

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Speaker 1: of people watching. And how did good people allow this

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Speaker 1: to go on for decade after decade after decade. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's a really important question, Brian. I think the thing

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Speaker 1: that really pained me about this era is that this

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Speaker 1: violence wasn't conducted by the clan and the cover of night,

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Speaker 1: with people wearing hoods. People would actually pose in photographs

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Speaker 1: next to the battered body that they had killed. They

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Speaker 1: were proud to be participating in this kind of terror

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Speaker 1: and violence. They would bring their children. We have photographs

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Speaker 1: where you see little children being held up by their

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Speaker 1: parents so they can see this person burning to death

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Speaker 1: or hanging. And this culture of violence was celebrated. Uh,

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Speaker 1: And that is I think one of the reasons why

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Speaker 1: we are very intentional about characterizing this as terrorism. They

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Speaker 1: weren't just killing individuals. They were sending a message to

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Speaker 1: African Americans throughout the region that if you challenge the

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Speaker 1: racial order, if you fight for your rights, we will

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Speaker 1: brutalize you. They would sometimes leave these by these hanging

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Speaker 1: for days, not allow the family to come and gather

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Speaker 1: the body, because they wanted the entire black community to

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Speaker 1: know what had happened. And the documentation of this violence,

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Speaker 1: the photographs, the postcards that would be sent around, was

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Speaker 1: a way of spreading the terror, spreading the message that

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Speaker 1: if you resist our racial order, we will kill you.

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Speaker 1: You couldn't get black people to drink out of the

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Speaker 1: Colored fountain unless there was a threat of violence, and

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Speaker 1: lynching became the threat that allowed Jim Crow to grow.

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Speaker 1: And it was so so disgraceful, you know you. I

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Speaker 1: featured one of those photos in this Hour. I did,

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Speaker 1: And when I thought about it, how they were shared

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Speaker 1: and passed around and celebrated, I thought of it almost

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Speaker 1: as a disgusting, perverse precursor to a weird kind of

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Speaker 1: social media that galvanized a group of people and kind

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Speaker 1: of kept them as one in their hatred and brutality.

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Speaker 1: That's right, and I think what it did was to

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Speaker 1: create a culture where it is okay to victimize these

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Speaker 1: black people. It is okay to see them brutalize, it's

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Speaker 1: okay to torture them. They're not the same as us,

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Speaker 1: They're not human like us. And everyone was complicit. You

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Speaker 1: didn't have to be in the photograph, you didn't have

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Speaker 1: to be in the mob to be responsible. Elected officials

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Speaker 1: look the other way. The federal government looked the other way,

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Speaker 1: which is why this was a national phenomena. We had

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Speaker 1: the resources to go to world, to Germany and fight

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Speaker 1: in World War One. We had the resources to go

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Speaker 1: to Europe and fighting World War Two. We had the

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Speaker 1: resources to keep people safe from this kind of violence,

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Speaker 1: but we were unwilling to do it. And no one

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Speaker 1: ever got prosecuted, you know, I mean, for for participating

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Speaker 1: in these kinds of crimes, which is infuriating. But what

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Speaker 1: I think is beautiful about this exhibit. I mean, it's

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Speaker 1: so it's so painful, but there's a certain amount of

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Speaker 1: beauty in validating and recognize seeing the people who never

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Speaker 1: had a proper burial, whose lives were never celebrated who

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Speaker 1: whose stories were never told. I think that's right. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I've been especially moved to name these unnamed victims of

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Speaker 1: terror and violence, to give them a space somewhere where

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Speaker 1: people can recognize the tragedy of their loss. And that's

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Speaker 1: been the heart of the reflections that community members have

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Speaker 1: shared when they do these, and I've been really moved

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Speaker 1: by it. We you know, we had a woman go

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Speaker 1: to a lynching site by herself. It was on a

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Speaker 1: dirt road in the middle of a rural county, and

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Speaker 1: she was very nervous about it, a middle aged black woman,

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Speaker 1: and she kept telling us, I don't know if I

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Speaker 1: should do this, and we said, well, it's up to you,

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Speaker 1: and she said, I'm going to go. And we tell

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Speaker 1: people you don't have to explain to anyone what you're doing.

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Speaker 1: If you feel uncomfortable telling them that you're getting soiled

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Speaker 1: because of a lynching, you can just make up something.

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Speaker 1: And she said, she was on this road and a

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Speaker 1: truck kept driving back and forth, and a white man

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Speaker 1: in this pickup truck kept slowing down and staring at her,

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Speaker 1: and she was getting very nervous and worried that this

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Speaker 1: man was going to do something and find me. The

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Speaker 1: truck stopped and this large white man got out of

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Speaker 1: the truck and walked over to her, and he asked

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Speaker 1: her what she was doing. And she had planned to say,

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Speaker 1: I'm just getting some dirt from my garden, but there

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Speaker 1: was something about the way he asked that just emboldened her.

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Speaker 1: And she said, I'm digging soil because this is where

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Speaker 1: a man was lynched. And she had the memo that

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Speaker 1: we gave each of our our volunteers that described the lynching.

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Speaker 1: And the man said, is that paper talk about that lynching?

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Speaker 1: She said it does. He said, can I read it?

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Speaker 1: And he picked up the paper and started reading it.

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Speaker 1: She said she was trying to finish her collection because

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Speaker 1: she was so nervous. And then she said, after the

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Speaker 1: man read the paper, he put it down and he said,

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Speaker 1: would you mind if I helped you dig? And this

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Speaker 1: man got on the soil and began digging with his

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Speaker 1: hand and helping her fill the jar. And at the

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Speaker 1: end they took a picture together, and she said, I

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Speaker 1: would have never expected anything like that to happen, but

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Speaker 1: I feel empowered. I feel energized that we can do

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Speaker 1: things to tell the truth about our past and find

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Speaker 1: our way forward. We use soil because I think soil

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Speaker 1: is a really powerful medium for confronting history. Buried in

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Speaker 1: that soil is the sweat of all of those enslaved

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Speaker 1: black people who populated this region. Buried in that soil

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Speaker 1: is the blood of those who were lynched and murdered.

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Speaker 1: Buried in that soil are the tears of those who

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Speaker 1: were humiliated during Jim Crow and segregation. But also in

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Speaker 1: that soil is the potential for life. We can plant things,

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Speaker 1: we can grow things that are healthier, that are capable

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Speaker 1: of nurturing a new day. We can't do that if

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Speaker 1: we don't talk about our past. And that's why these

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Speaker 1: projects for me have been really exciting. I'm committed to

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Speaker 1: truth and reconciliation. I just believe that truth and reconciliation

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Speaker 1: is sequential. So to first tell the truth before we

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Speaker 1: can have reconciliation. This is why I say Brian Stevenson

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Speaker 1: for Press is it in. I mean, honestly all the time.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna take a quick break and we'll be back

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Speaker 1: in a moment with Brian Stephenson. And now back with

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Speaker 1: Brian Stevenson. I think a lot of people who haven't

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Speaker 1: read your book or which is amazing recommended reading Just

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Speaker 1: Mercy Everyone, or didn't watch your Ted talk, both of

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Speaker 1: which I highly recommend. Um want to know a little

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Speaker 1: bit more about your own personal story, and so I

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Speaker 1: wondered if you could just share a little bit about

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Speaker 1: growing up in Delaware. I know your great grandparents were

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Speaker 1: actually slaves, how you experienced school desegregation personally, even though

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Speaker 1: you're you're not such an old guy. Um, just can

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Speaker 1: you tell us a little bit about what informed the

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Speaker 1: work that you're doing now? Sure? Yeah. The line between

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Speaker 1: me and my enslaved great grandfather is pretty short. My

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Speaker 1: my great grandfather was born in slavery. My grandmother, who

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Speaker 1: was born in the eighteen eighties, spent a lot of

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Speaker 1: time with me, and she was in my ear constantly

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Speaker 1: talking about the stories her father would tell her about

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Speaker 1: being enslaved. He was actually an enslave person who learned

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Speaker 1: to read when it could have cost him his life,

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Speaker 1: and it was the secret that the enslaved community kept.

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Speaker 1: And when emancipation came, she would talk with pride about

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Speaker 1: how uh, formerly enslaved people would come to their home

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Speaker 1: and my great grandfather would read the paper and it

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Speaker 1: made her really value education. Uh. And so when I

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00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:40,639
Speaker 1: was a little boy in a community where the schools

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Speaker 1: were still racially segregated, my mother, you know, went into

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Speaker 1: debt to buy you know, the World book Encyclopedia. She

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Speaker 1: wanted us, uh to learn about the world in which

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Speaker 1: we lived. And I started my education in a colored school.

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Speaker 1: And then lawyers came into our community and made them

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Speaker 1: open up the public schools. And because of that intervention,

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Speaker 1: I got to go to high school. My dad couldn't

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Speaker 1: go to high school in that county. There were no

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Speaker 1: high schools for black children when he was a teenager.

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Speaker 1: So I was definitely mindful of what the struggle for

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Speaker 1: for justice and the effort to create opportunities meant. And

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Speaker 1: it's the reason why I ultimately ended up in Alabama

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Speaker 1: providing legal services to people who were being condemned, who

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Speaker 1: were being unfairly treated, who are being wrongly convicted. And

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Speaker 1: for me, um, that legacy, which is painful in many ways,

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Speaker 1: has another side, Uh. You know, there is a dignity

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Speaker 1: and the people who endured slavery. There is a strength

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Speaker 1: in the people who found a way to give love

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Speaker 1: to their children despite the brutality and torture of lynching.

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Speaker 1: There is a courage, uh in the folks who stood

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Speaker 1: up against Jim Crow and marched and protested for the

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Speaker 1: right to vote. And the strength of those people is

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Speaker 1: something that I feel. You can't live in Montgomery, Alabama

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Speaker 1: without being and energized by the legacy of people who

433
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:05,080
Speaker 1: have been here. I have difficult days and I go

434
00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:07,400
Speaker 1: out and I look through my window and I think

435
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:09,560
Speaker 1: about the people doing what I'm trying to do sixty

436
00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:12,920
Speaker 1: years ago, and they had to frequently say my head

437
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,440
Speaker 1: is bloodied but not bowed. I've never had to say that.

438
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:18,320
Speaker 1: But I feel fortunate to have have been raised by people

439
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:20,959
Speaker 1: who gave me an awareness of that history. But not

440
00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:23,840
Speaker 1: only that gave me that strength, gave me that love,

441
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:27,639
Speaker 1: gave me that insight that sometimes you have to stand

442
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:29,760
Speaker 1: when other people say sit down. Sometimes you have to

443
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:33,600
Speaker 1: speak when other people say be quiet. And I'm grateful

444
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:37,439
Speaker 1: for for parents and grandparents and great grandparents who have

445
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,199
Speaker 1: taught me that, uh. And that's what I want to

446
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:42,760
Speaker 1: give to the people I spend time with. Brian, what

447
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:46,000
Speaker 1: do you say to people today who might tell you,

448
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:49,360
Speaker 1: you know, the United States had a very racist pass

449
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:52,399
Speaker 1: and these things are terrible. But you know, we're not

450
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:56,480
Speaker 1: racist today and we've moved beyond this, and so um,

451
00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:58,640
Speaker 1: you know, why are we spending so much time kind

452
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:00,880
Speaker 1: of mired in these issues? I mean, I I that's

453
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:05,680
Speaker 1: a sentiment I actually hear sometimes what do you tell

454
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:08,520
Speaker 1: those people? Well, I think there's a lot of evidence

455
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:11,280
Speaker 1: that we have not overcome that. I mean, there are

456
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:14,919
Speaker 1: presumptions of dangerousness and guilty black and brown people bear,

457
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:17,960
Speaker 1: and it doesn't matter how educated they are, how smart

458
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 1: they are, how hard working they are. And I just

459
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:24,200
Speaker 1: think we're not being honest if we failed to recognize that.

460
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:26,720
Speaker 1: You know, I'm a practicing lawyer, went to Harvard Law School,

461
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:29,800
Speaker 1: argued all these cases before the Supreme Court. And I've

462
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:33,320
Speaker 1: been in courtrooms in the Midwest, not the South, sitting

463
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:36,480
Speaker 1: at defense council's table before hearing starts in my suit

464
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:38,840
Speaker 1: and tie. And if I'm there for the first time,

465
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 1: I had to judge walking one time and say, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey,

466
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:42,840
Speaker 1: you get back out there in the hall way. You

467
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:44,760
Speaker 1: wait until your lawyer gets here. I don't want any

468
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:48,280
Speaker 1: defendants coming into my courtroom without their lawyer. And I

469
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:51,000
Speaker 1: had to stand up and apologize. I said I'm sorry,

470
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:54,359
Speaker 1: your honor, I am the lawyer. And the judge started laughing,

471
00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:57,440
Speaker 1: and the prosecutors started laughing, and I made myself laugh

472
00:26:57,480 --> 00:26:59,960
Speaker 1: because I didn't want to disadvantage my client. And then

473
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 1: my client came and a young white kid I was representing,

474
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:07,480
Speaker 1: and I did this hearing, and uh, but afterward, I thought,

475
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:10,880
Speaker 1: do I think that judge is going to be fair

476
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:13,520
Speaker 1: to people? Do I think that Judge is burdened by

477
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:16,240
Speaker 1: this history? And I do, and that plays out all

478
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:20,720
Speaker 1: the time. But I think even more significantly, Brian, is

479
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:24,960
Speaker 1: that we haven't actually acknowledged this history of race. You know,

480
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 1: I live in Alabama. In Alabama, Uh, Confederate Memorial Day

481
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:34,080
Speaker 1: is a state holiday in this state. Jefferson Davis's birthday

482
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:36,919
Speaker 1: is a state holiday. We don't have Martin Luther King

483
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:39,600
Speaker 1: Day in Alabama. We have Martin Luther King slash roberty

484
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 1: Lea Day. The landscape is littered with the iconography of

485
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:45,720
Speaker 1: the Confederacy. When I moved to Montgomery, there were fifty

486
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:48,200
Speaker 1: nine markers and monuments to the Confederacy and not a

487
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:52,399
Speaker 1: word about slavery. Nothing. And what that says to me

488
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:56,560
Speaker 1: is that not only have we not actively addressed this history.

489
00:27:56,600 --> 00:28:00,439
Speaker 1: We have proactively tried to create a new narrator, a

490
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:05,200
Speaker 1: false narrative. We think things were glorious in the nineteenth century.

491
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 1: We think the good old days were the forties and fifties.

492
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:09,960
Speaker 1: We think the best days with the turn of the century,

493
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:13,320
Speaker 1: precisely the time when black and brown bodies were being

494
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 1: suspended and hanged from trees. And that disconnect doesn't allow

495
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:20,720
Speaker 1: us to actually confront the challenges of contemporary racial biased

496
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 1: and we're not going to be free until we do that.

497
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the memorial landscape. I know we discussed

498
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:32,360
Speaker 1: this for my documentary, but you believe that these Confederate

499
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:36,720
Speaker 1: monuments and statues of people like Jefferson Davis and Robert E.

500
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:41,400
Speaker 1: Lee should in fact be removed. Um, tell me why

501
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:45,960
Speaker 1: you think that's an important step for reconciliation. Brian Well,

502
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:50,800
Speaker 1: I don't think the whole of their lives is something

503
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 1: that we should honor. They were the architects and defenders

504
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:57,680
Speaker 1: of slavery at the time, they were viewed as insurgents

505
00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 1: traders to the American government, and we created a narrative

506
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:07,160
Speaker 1: about them, and by we, I mean white Southerners created

507
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 1: not uh not African Americans called the Lost Cause narrative

508
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 1: of course costs, and it was a way to basically

509
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 1: reject racial equality. You know, we committed to emancipated people

510
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:19,240
Speaker 1: that they would be free, that there would be equality,

511
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 1: that they would be protected. And the American and the

512
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:24,920
Speaker 1: American government in the white South in particular, said no,

513
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:27,280
Speaker 1: we're not going to have that. And they started talking

514
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 1: about this effort to preserve slavery as a noble effort,

515
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:35,920
Speaker 1: a romantic, glorious effort. And it was that narrative that

516
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 1: was created, and many of these markers and monuments were

517
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 1: erected in the nineteen fifties when the United States Supreme

518
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 1: Court was saying you have to racially integrate your schools.

519
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 1: We've got Robert E. Lee High here in Montgomery. They

520
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,200
Speaker 1: didn't put the statue of Robert E. Lee in front

521
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 1: of that high school until nineteen when elected officials were saying,

522
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:58,480
Speaker 1: we're never going to allow integration to come to our schools.

523
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 1: I think that's a misconception that a lot of people have.

524
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 1: They think those statutes have been there for you know,

525
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 1: over a hundred years, or since the eighteen fifties or whatever.

526
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 1: But that's one of the things I pointed out in

527
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 1: the documentary that the two big spikes, according to the

528
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:15,440
Speaker 1: Southern Poverty Law Center, as you know, Brian, were right

529
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 1: at the height of Jim Crow in the early nineteen hundred's,

530
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 1: well after the end of the Civil War, and then

531
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 1: the other big spike, as you mentioned, right after Brown v.

532
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 1: Board of Education. And I just think we're not being

533
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:31,160
Speaker 1: honest about what these things represent. I mean, no one

534
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 1: thinks it would be appropriate for the German government to

535
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:37,320
Speaker 1: start erecting statues of Adolf Hitler. In fact, it would

536
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 1: be unconscionable. We don't think it would be appropriate for

537
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:43,240
Speaker 1: any nation to put up a statue honoring Osama bin Laden.

538
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 1: We regard him as a terrorist who did destructive things,

539
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:50,760
Speaker 1: who did horrific things to undermine confidence and well being

540
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:53,400
Speaker 1: in this country and across the world. And I just

541
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:57,240
Speaker 1: think we need to have a consciousness about the agony,

542
00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 1: the horror, the brutality of slavery, and if we have

543
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 1: that consciousness, we cannot celebrate anyone who actively tried to

544
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:10,479
Speaker 1: defend it, who actually created an event where thousands of

545
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:13,240
Speaker 1: people died in support of it. And I just think

546
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 1: that's the disconnect and I I really do believe that

547
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 1: there are ways of recognizing people who did heroic things,

548
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 1: including many white Southerners. There were white Southerners who were abolitionists,

549
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:27,840
Speaker 1: who actually said in Alabama, we should not enslave other

550
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,200
Speaker 1: human beings. There were white Southerners who were trying to

551
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,680
Speaker 1: stop people from being lynched. There were white Southerners who

552
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:37,000
Speaker 1: said that segregation is wrong. And what frustrates me is

553
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 1: that too few people know the names of any of

554
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:41,640
Speaker 1: those white Southerners. And I think we should name some

555
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 1: streets after them. I think we should name some schools

556
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:45,960
Speaker 1: after them, and then we could all be proud of

557
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,719
Speaker 1: what they represent, because they represent a commitment to truth

558
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 1: and fairness and equality and human rights. Sometimes though it's

559
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 1: not so black and white. You know, there are Confederate

560
00:31:56,280 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 1: generals and officers and their principal legacy maybe perpetuate the

561
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:06,200
Speaker 1: institution of slavery. And then there are other white historical figures,

562
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:12,160
Speaker 1: for example, like Thomas Jefferson and George Washington, who have

563
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 1: a much a decidedly mixed record, and you know, who

564
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 1: have done extraordinary things and are responsible for the phrase

565
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 1: all men are created equal, and and yet they own

566
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 1: slaves and I struggle with this myself. Admittedly, the idea

567
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:35,200
Speaker 1: of just wiping the entire slate clean because people cannot

568
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 1: pass some kind of purity test seems to be it's

569
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:41,959
Speaker 1: hard for me to wrap my head around. Can you

570
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 1: help me with that? Sure, I think that we have

571
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:50,320
Speaker 1: a history where lots of people did dishonorable things. It

572
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:54,080
Speaker 1: doesn't mean that they couldn't also do something honorable. Look,

573
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 1: I represent people who make mistakes all the time. I'm

574
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 1: committed to the notion that each of us is more

575
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:00,960
Speaker 1: than the worst thing we've ever done one. But it

576
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 1: doesn't mean that if you've committed a capital murder that

577
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 1: we should erect a statue to you because you are

578
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:11,000
Speaker 1: something more than that. And the legacy of Jefferson Davis,

579
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 1: the legacy of Roberty, Jeff Stewart, you, all of those

580
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:18,680
Speaker 1: folks is very different than the legacy of Thomas Jefferson

581
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 1: or George Washington. I don't think it's actually a close

582
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:25,880
Speaker 1: question in my mind, and so I think when people

583
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:29,719
Speaker 1: invoke those figures, I think it really undermines Look, there

584
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 1: were people who were silent during the Nazi era but

585
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:38,480
Speaker 1: nonetheless did extraordinary things. Uh. Not everybody was as vocal

586
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:41,239
Speaker 1: as they should have been. It doesn't mean that if

587
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 1: they are world renowned scientists who did something noble, that

588
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:47,320
Speaker 1: they can't be celebrated for that. And I just think

589
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 1: in many ways it's a continuum. Uh, but it doesn't

590
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 1: make sense to get to that end of the continuum

591
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 1: where people are talking about figures like Abraham Lincoln or

592
00:33:56,720 --> 00:34:00,400
Speaker 1: George Washington or Thomas Jefferson, when we're selling adding these

593
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 1: figures down here. Believe me, there are no Lincoln statutes

594
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 1: in Alabama. There are no Washington statutes. We have a

595
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:10,759
Speaker 1: very particular purpose that we are trying to advance with

596
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 1: the erection of some of these monuments and memorials, and

597
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:15,920
Speaker 1: I think that purpose is to advance this idea that

598
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:19,560
Speaker 1: there is no shame. We don't have to apologize for slavery.

599
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:21,720
Speaker 1: We didn't do anything wrong during the era of lynching.

600
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 1: We we shouldn't feel any remorse about decades of segregation.

601
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 1: And that mindset, to me, is what we're trying to challenge.

602
00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:33,960
Speaker 1: And I don't think that's the same condition or circumstance

603
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:35,880
Speaker 1: when you talk about some of these other figures, you know,

604
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:39,279
Speaker 1: I interviewed State Senator Gerald Allen who introduced the bill

605
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:43,359
Speaker 1: that became the Alabama Memorial Preservation Act, which said any

606
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 1: statue that was erected or a monument before nineteen seventy

607
00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 1: seven cannot, by law be removed. He introduced that legislation,

608
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:55,879
Speaker 1: by the way, right after Mitchelandrew removed those four monuments

609
00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:59,760
Speaker 1: in New Orleans. But Senator Alan I have a quote

610
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:02,280
Speaker 1: from him. He didn't say this to me in the piece,

611
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:05,120
Speaker 1: but he said, there is a revisionist movement of foot

612
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:08,760
Speaker 1: to cover over many parts of American history. Our national

613
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:12,120
Speaker 1: and state history should be remembered as it happened. This

614
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 1: politically correct movement to strike whole periods of the past

615
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:20,719
Speaker 1: from our collective memories divisive and unnecessary. What would your

616
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:24,360
Speaker 1: rebuttal be, Well, I'd say I totally agree, but for

617
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:27,279
Speaker 1: different reasons. Yeah. I mean, you know, I don't think

618
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:30,800
Speaker 1: anybody could credibly claim that we have told the truth

619
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:33,960
Speaker 1: about our history of slavery in the American South. To

620
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 1: be so preoccupied with mid nineteenth century history and to

621
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:42,920
Speaker 1: never talk about slavery the landscape reveals a very disconnected consciousness.

622
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:46,400
Speaker 1: Nobody has talked about the history of of lynching. You know,

623
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:49,279
Speaker 1: it shouldn't be a group of lawyers in eighteen that

624
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 1: finally say, you know, we should do something about this

625
00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:55,320
Speaker 1: era of lynching. We haven't confronted the legacy of segregation.

626
00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:58,680
Speaker 1: The state constitution in Alabama still prohibits black and white

627
00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 1: kids from going to school together there, and we can't

628
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:02,960
Speaker 1: get it out of the state constitution because every time

629
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:05,280
Speaker 1: they have a statewide referendum to remove it, the majority

630
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:06,880
Speaker 1: of people in the state boat to keep it. That

631
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:10,279
Speaker 1: is so outrageous. It is outrageous, but it is a

632
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 1: consequence of the kind of history that we have been

633
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:17,959
Speaker 1: teaching people. And that's why there is a profound need

634
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:21,640
Speaker 1: uh to talk more honestly about this legacy of slavery

635
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:25,440
Speaker 1: and lynching and segregation. We don't actually feel burdened by it,

636
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:31,320
Speaker 1: and I think that's part of the problem. It's time

637
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:34,239
Speaker 1: for us to take another quick break. We'll be right back.

638
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:45,560
Speaker 1: Thank you to everyone, as always who called, in, an emailed,

639
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:48,160
Speaker 1: and even texted us this week. Let's take a listen

640
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:50,400
Speaker 1: to a voicemail that really stood out to us. And

641
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:53,439
Speaker 1: by the way, this caller did not leave a name. Hi.

642
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:58,800
Speaker 1: I'm calling about the Confederate statues. I'm a Southerner, by birth.

643
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 1: I went to Robberty Lee High School. Um, I'm in

644
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:05,879
Speaker 1: my late sixties. I'm retired from DuPont. Just to give

645
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:09,040
Speaker 1: you a little background. When this whole thing came up

646
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:12,239
Speaker 1: about the Confederate statues, I have to say, and I

647
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 1: have to admit that I've never even given it a thought.

648
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:18,440
Speaker 1: I've grown up around them, I've never I've visited towns

649
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:21,760
Speaker 1: that had them. I just looked at him as historical markers.

650
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:25,480
Speaker 1: I wasn't offended by them. I'm a white person. I mean,

651
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 1: you know, I just had never really thought about it,

652
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:31,440
Speaker 1: and I've been thinking about it. Um with all the publicity,

653
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:35,799
Speaker 1: There's been a lot of um discussion in my hometown

654
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:40,120
Speaker 1: here of Jacksonville, Florida about it. Nothing specific has been

655
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:42,800
Speaker 1: done yet, but I suspect at some point something will

656
00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:45,600
Speaker 1: and maybe that's a good thing. Maybe we should take

657
00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:49,839
Speaker 1: these statues down. But I have to say that I've

658
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:52,719
Speaker 1: it's I've had to come go through a process to

659
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 1: come to this decision. Um. You know, as a Southerner.

660
00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:59,440
Speaker 1: Over the course of my career, I worked with a

661
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:02,439
Speaker 1: lot of from all over the country, and from time

662
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:06,560
Speaker 1: to time I would hear people make remarks that were

663
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:11,240
Speaker 1: derogatory about Southerners, So you know, I have this little

664
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:15,680
Speaker 1: element of defensiveness and also pride in the South. But

665
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:19,719
Speaker 1: I think bottom line is it's probably time to take

666
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:24,600
Speaker 1: these statues out of places where they are exalted or

667
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:28,719
Speaker 1: looked at as some wonderful thing, and preserve them in

668
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:32,680
Speaker 1: some fashion and put them in a museum. Thank you, well,

669
00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:36,440
Speaker 1: I'd like to thank that caller for such a thoughtful voicemail.

670
00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:40,879
Speaker 1: I really appreciate it, and I think she explained sort

671
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 1: of the process you have to go through. You know,

672
00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:47,480
Speaker 1: sometimes I have felt defensive about things, and much of

673
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:50,720
Speaker 1: my family is from the South, and I think that

674
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 1: you have to have a better understanding of the full

675
00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:59,440
Speaker 1: picture of this Confederate iconography to come up with an opinion.

676
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:02,279
Speaker 1: It was a beautiful voicemail in my opinion, Brian, because

677
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:05,720
Speaker 1: I also think we have to feel liberated to admit

678
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:09,960
Speaker 1: that we had to struggle to get someplace and that

679
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:13,000
Speaker 1: it was a process. And so I just want to

680
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:15,560
Speaker 1: say thank you to that caller so much for sharing

681
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:19,759
Speaker 1: her experience and her thoughts. You know, Brian Stevenson uses

682
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:22,880
Speaker 1: the phrase truth and reconciliation to talk about where we

683
00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 1: need to go as a society, and I think that

684
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:28,800
Speaker 1: caller is a good example of the kind of thought

685
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:32,760
Speaker 1: process and introspection that needs to happen. I think people

686
00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:37,120
Speaker 1: need a little bit more hand holding and education to

687
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:41,200
Speaker 1: get through the process of understanding why it's probably the

688
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:43,320
Speaker 1: right thing to take these things down, and a little

689
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:47,359
Speaker 1: more patients, right, And um, I know that's probably an

690
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:50,680
Speaker 1: athetical to people who have been fighting for social justice

691
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:55,799
Speaker 1: for centuries, and anathetical, unfortunately, to the media culture we

692
00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:59,000
Speaker 1: live in, which tries to reduce this stuff, you know

693
00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:02,440
Speaker 1: too very sort of plaistic, not only simplistic, but also

694
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:06,560
Speaker 1: ways that will elicit outrage, right and push us into

695
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:09,720
Speaker 1: our corners, as opposed to trying to bring us together,

696
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 1: right because compromises boring, Brian, Right, let's face it anyway,

697
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:16,200
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for that thoughtful voicemail. Of course,

698
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:18,440
Speaker 1: we'd like to keep hearing from you as we continue

699
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:23,400
Speaker 1: to explore these thorny issues from my national geographic documentary

700
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:26,920
Speaker 1: series called America Inside Out. Thank you Ellie Monahan for

701
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:28,840
Speaker 1: coming up with that title. I thought that was a

702
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:33,360
Speaker 1: good Yeah. Her check is in the mail, right, Yeah,

703
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:35,799
Speaker 1: her checksman in the mail for twenty six years, but

704
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:39,000
Speaker 1: go ahead. So the next episode of the series is

705
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:42,280
Speaker 1: called The Muslim next Door and it airs on April eighteen,

706
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:45,160
Speaker 1: and it's pretty terrific as well. So here are some

707
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:47,839
Speaker 1: questions we'd love for you all to answer. For our

708
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:50,480
Speaker 1: Muslim American listeners, what are some of the joys and

709
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:54,719
Speaker 1: challenges you face with regard to your religious identity? For

710
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:57,520
Speaker 1: everyone else, we're curious to hear. Did you grow up

711
00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:01,040
Speaker 1: with a Muslim community in your area, you spent time

712
00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:04,440
Speaker 1: with Muslim families? Are you still wrapping your head around

713
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:08,759
Speaker 1: what being Muslim even means? Yes, all experience levels are

714
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:11,319
Speaker 1: welcome on this show, so call and leave us a

715
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:15,520
Speaker 1: message at nine two to four four six three seven,

716
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:20,800
Speaker 1: or right to us at comments at current podcast dot com.

717
00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:22,719
Speaker 1: Hey everyone, I want to tell you about a podcast

718
00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:25,960
Speaker 1: I think you really enjoy. It's called The James Altiture Show.

719
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:28,960
Speaker 1: But I have to say this is not your average

720
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Speaker 1: business podcast. The host has an incredible story. He started

721
00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:36,840
Speaker 1: and run more than twenty companies. He's currently an advisor

722
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:39,880
Speaker 1: and an investor to over thirty. But at one point,

723
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:43,120
Speaker 1: James lost everything. In a matter of months, his bank

724
00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:46,400
Speaker 1: account drain from fifteen million dollars to a hundred and

725
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Speaker 1: forty three dollars, and that's when he realized he had

726
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 1: to make a change. He stopped living by someone else's

727
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:56,000
Speaker 1: definition of success and he started to choose himself. And

728
00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:59,680
Speaker 1: now James interviews hundreds of people, self made billionaires, best

729
00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:04,919
Speaker 1: sell authors, thought leaders, astronauts, athletes, rappers, and more. They

730
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:08,920
Speaker 1: all have incredible origin stories how they got past their fears,

731
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:13,600
Speaker 1: ditched their cubicles, and started a living with more everyday fulfillment.

732
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:18,120
Speaker 1: Check out The James Alter Show and subscribe now wherever

733
00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:25,920
Speaker 1: you get your podcast. And now back to the show, Brian.

734
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 1: We got this text message about Confederate statues from a

735
00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:32,440
Speaker 1: listener of ours named Ashley, and I wanted to discuss

736
00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:35,719
Speaker 1: it with you. Here's what she wrote. I'm from New

737
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:38,880
Speaker 1: Orleans and as you know, the mayor had four statues removed,

738
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:41,000
Speaker 1: some in the middle of the night. There is still

739
00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:43,720
Speaker 1: a year later, no plan to replace what was removed,

740
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:47,120
Speaker 1: and just empty pediments left. Landrew wants to spend more

741
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:49,480
Speaker 1: money to study what should be done. Many people here

742
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:52,480
Speaker 1: wish they had been left up and new descriptions, new

743
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:57,000
Speaker 1: plaques made to re contextualize why they were there, their importance,

744
00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:01,000
Speaker 1: and the issues and problems surrounding the statues, Ripping them

745
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:04,560
Speaker 1: down just made people angry and was unthoughtful when he

746
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:07,839
Speaker 1: claims he was being thoughtful about his actions. How would

747
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:11,319
Speaker 1: you respond to Ashley Bryan? Well, I think we have

748
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:14,960
Speaker 1: to ask people, and I would ask Ashley, why do

749
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:17,319
Speaker 1: you want that statue up? It's not because you want

750
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:20,200
Speaker 1: to remind people about the brutality of slavery. I don't

751
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:24,080
Speaker 1: genuinely hear that from people. The question is why what

752
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 1: do you think we're giving away? And when people say

753
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:29,960
Speaker 1: we can't erase the past within what past do we

754
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:34,680
Speaker 1: think we are communicating by having these Confederate monuments memorials

755
00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:38,960
Speaker 1: without saying a word about the degradation and brutality of slavery.

756
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:41,600
Speaker 1: And that's the problem that I have with this suggestion

757
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:43,480
Speaker 1: that we can just add a few words and make

758
00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:47,280
Speaker 1: it okay. There's nothing debatable about the humanity of slavery.

759
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:48,920
Speaker 1: I don't think that should be something where we just

760
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 1: give both sides of the issue. I don't think there's

761
00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:56,280
Speaker 1: anything debatable about the outrage of racial violence and lynching.

762
00:43:56,560 --> 00:43:58,480
Speaker 1: And when you try to give both sides, what you

763
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:01,520
Speaker 1: do is you end up legitimating. Uh slavery, you end

764
00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:05,720
Speaker 1: up legitimating lynching. I don't think there's anything debatable about

765
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:08,719
Speaker 1: how unconscionable it is to say the black people, you

766
00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:11,240
Speaker 1: can't go to school, you can't vote, just because you're black.

767
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:14,600
Speaker 1: It is a violation of basic human rights and dignity,

768
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:17,560
Speaker 1: and we allow that to be something that has quote

769
00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:22,879
Speaker 1: both sides. There is no context for justifying slavery, there

770
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:25,799
Speaker 1: is no context for justifying lynching. So clearly, when it

771
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:28,359
Speaker 1: comes to some of these Civil War monuments, you are

772
00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:32,880
Speaker 1: not of the mind that there should be a separate

773
00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:38,640
Speaker 1: statue put up, say of African American Civil War soldiers

774
00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:41,879
Speaker 1: who went and fought for the Union side, or an

775
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:47,080
Speaker 1: abolitionist statue that would counter the narrative expressed by the

776
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:51,399
Speaker 1: already existing one. I don't think that's enough. I don't

777
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:55,680
Speaker 1: think it actually advances the larger truth of what happened,

778
00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:57,239
Speaker 1: and the truth of what happened is is that we

779
00:44:57,320 --> 00:45:01,120
Speaker 1: allowed people to be brutalize is we allowed them to

780
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:04,000
Speaker 1: be tortured, we allowed them to be exploited, we allowed

781
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:06,799
Speaker 1: them to be victimized in a shameful way, and we've

782
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:08,840
Speaker 1: got to own up to that. We've got to recover

783
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:11,960
Speaker 1: from that, and we don't recover from that by muting

784
00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:15,879
Speaker 1: that victimization, that horror, that in humanity. And I think

785
00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:20,160
Speaker 1: sometimes people don't realize how important these statues are. First

786
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:23,440
Speaker 1: of all, they're usually on huge pedestals. The Roberty Lee

787
00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:27,319
Speaker 1: statue in Emancipation Park. If you looked at the Lee

788
00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:32,400
Speaker 1: Statue and Least Circle, it is on an enormous column

789
00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:36,560
Speaker 1: looming large over the city. And what we put in

790
00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:40,759
Speaker 1: our public spaces, I think those things say a lot

791
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:44,320
Speaker 1: of about us, who we are and what we're telling

792
00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:47,880
Speaker 1: the world about our values. Yeah. You know what's interesting

793
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:51,600
Speaker 1: is we're we're about to issue report on segregation, and

794
00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:56,279
Speaker 1: we've actually documented Confederate monuments and memorials, and we've documented

795
00:45:57,239 --> 00:46:01,200
Speaker 1: what was said when these things were erected. And it's

796
00:46:01,239 --> 00:46:06,040
Speaker 1: a really fascinating and I think necessary education that that

797
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:09,520
Speaker 1: people need to to embrace, because most of the time,

798
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:14,480
Speaker 1: when these monuments would be erected, you'd have elected officials

799
00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:17,840
Speaker 1: saying things like we are erecting this monument as a

800
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:21,600
Speaker 1: commitment to white supremacy. That's not my word, that's their word.

801
00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:26,799
Speaker 1: To symbolize our resistance to integration forever, to show that

802
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:32,279
Speaker 1: our claim and cause was true in preserving slavery, and

803
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:38,200
Speaker 1: you cannot disconnect the purpose, the intentionality, the context of

804
00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:40,560
Speaker 1: these statutes. And that's why I just think we need

805
00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:43,320
Speaker 1: to question what is it that we think we're giving

806
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:46,080
Speaker 1: up when these statutes come down, What is it that

807
00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:49,040
Speaker 1: we think we're losing. And what a lot of people

808
00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 1: I believe think they're losing is uh this confidence that

809
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:57,759
Speaker 1: there has never been anything about which shame is appropriate.

810
00:46:57,960 --> 00:47:00,799
Speaker 1: There has never been something about which you need to apologize,

811
00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:04,239
Speaker 1: and that I understand is challenging to confront that. You know,

812
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:06,799
Speaker 1: we were wrong to tolerate this, we were wrong to

813
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 1: permit this, but it is necessary if we're going to

814
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:13,799
Speaker 1: make progress. You cannot, you know. We I talked about

815
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:16,359
Speaker 1: this in the context of domestic violence because fifty years

816
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:19,040
Speaker 1: ago we did not have a very evolved consciousness about

817
00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:22,560
Speaker 1: domestic violence. We allowed women to be abused and brutalized

818
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:25,319
Speaker 1: in their homes. If they called the police, the police

819
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:27,319
Speaker 1: would show up. They would never arrest the man. They

820
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:29,080
Speaker 1: would calm him down. They didn't want to make an

821
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:31,680
Speaker 1: arrest because that would be too much. And then our

822
00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:36,440
Speaker 1: consciousness change. We actually began to appreciate how unacceptable it

823
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:40,040
Speaker 1: was to allow people to be victimized, and today we

824
00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:42,400
Speaker 1: take a very different approach, and we should be a

825
00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:45,719
Speaker 1: shame that for decades women were brutalized and had no

826
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:49,480
Speaker 1: recourse in law enforcement. And I just think until we

827
00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:52,000
Speaker 1: have that consciousness, we don't turn a corner, we don't

828
00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:54,200
Speaker 1: make progress, and we haven't made the progress that I

829
00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:56,719
Speaker 1: think we can make on issues of race in this

830
00:47:56,840 --> 00:48:00,320
Speaker 1: country if we'd start talking more honestly about this street

831
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:04,000
Speaker 1: and confront the legacy created by these statutes and memorials.

832
00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:10,080
Speaker 1: President Trump opened his campaign by talking about Mexican rapists

833
00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:14,440
Speaker 1: and criminals. He talked about the Central Park five being

834
00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:17,400
Speaker 1: guilty even after it was proved that they were innocent.

835
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:22,200
Speaker 1: Racial animus, I would argue, has been a key feature,

836
00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:26,440
Speaker 1: not a bug, of his political career. How much of

837
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:30,600
Speaker 1: a role do you think racial backlash played in his

838
00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:34,319
Speaker 1: election because you know, sixty three million Americans voted for

839
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:37,040
Speaker 1: him and continues to play and how people are are

840
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:40,759
Speaker 1: addressing the very issues we've been discussing. Yeah, I don't

841
00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:46,160
Speaker 1: think we can discount that that connection. I mean, um,

842
00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:49,919
Speaker 1: when somebody starts arguing that we should ban people because

843
00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:53,520
Speaker 1: of their religious identity and get support for that. When

844
00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:59,000
Speaker 1: someone characterizes all Mexicans as rapists and engages in that

845
00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:04,080
Speaker 1: kind of racism or stereotyping and bigotry, that kind of

846
00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:08,359
Speaker 1: consciousness would not be tolerable if if we had done

847
00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:09,640
Speaker 1: the work that I think we need to do, I

848
00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:12,640
Speaker 1: just don't think we would be allowed to support that

849
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:16,800
Speaker 1: kind of posturing, that kind of rhetoric, even the framework.

850
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:19,839
Speaker 1: And I'll be honest about this, I'm just confused when

851
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:22,600
Speaker 1: I hear people saying make America great again, I don't

852
00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:25,040
Speaker 1: know what decade they think I should want to relive.

853
00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:27,759
Speaker 1: What is the decade in American history that I, as

854
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:31,680
Speaker 1: an African American man should want to relive, Certainly, not

855
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:36,279
Speaker 1: something uh in the in the nineteenth century, the twentieth century.

856
00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:38,080
Speaker 1: When is the part of our history when things were

857
00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:40,720
Speaker 1: so grand and glorious for people of color or for women.

858
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:44,600
Speaker 1: And it is this kind of false idea that we

859
00:49:44,719 --> 00:49:46,920
Speaker 1: used to be glorious and wonderful and now we're not.

860
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:49,560
Speaker 1: And I just think that consciousness is something you can

861
00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:53,520
Speaker 1: maintain only because you haven't talked honestly about the past.

862
00:49:53,560 --> 00:49:57,359
Speaker 1: And so yes, I do think that we have been

863
00:49:57,480 --> 00:50:02,240
Speaker 1: very unevolved and our thinking about this legacy, and people

864
00:50:02,239 --> 00:50:05,840
Speaker 1: exploit that, people take advantage of that. Uh, when somebody says, oh,

865
00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:07,800
Speaker 1: you don't have to apologize when you make a mistake,

866
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:10,440
Speaker 1: you don't have to feel shame, it's very tempting, it's

867
00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:14,480
Speaker 1: very attractive. But I don't think it's ultimately liberating. I

868
00:50:14,480 --> 00:50:18,120
Speaker 1: don't think it's ultimately a path to justice or a

869
00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:22,279
Speaker 1: healthy community. And closing, Brian, what do you think is

870
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:26,319
Speaker 1: the way forward? How can we make progress? How can

871
00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:30,120
Speaker 1: we inch towards justice? Well? I think, you know, I

872
00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:32,560
Speaker 1: think we have to be open. I mean I I

873
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:36,360
Speaker 1: am really intentional about how we're trying to do this.

874
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:38,640
Speaker 1: We want everyone to come to our memorial. We want

875
00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:40,839
Speaker 1: everyone to come to our museum. It's not just for

876
00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:45,040
Speaker 1: African Americans, it's not just for people who understand all

877
00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:48,000
Speaker 1: parts of this history. UM. We want to reach people

878
00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:50,839
Speaker 1: where they are to the extent that we can. I'm

879
00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:53,279
Speaker 1: not interested in talking about America's history because I want

880
00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:56,040
Speaker 1: to punish America. And I think that sometimes is the

881
00:50:56,080 --> 00:50:59,960
Speaker 1: perception that causes people to say, no, I'm interested in

882
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:02,279
Speaker 1: talking about America's history because I want to liberate us.

883
00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:05,719
Speaker 1: I think there's something better waiting for us if we

884
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:08,399
Speaker 1: can actually take a step to confront this history. When

885
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:11,799
Speaker 1: you teach your child that he or she is better

886
00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:14,359
Speaker 1: than someone else because of their color, you actually are

887
00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:18,160
Speaker 1: limiting the life of that child. You're you're actually abusing

888
00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:20,680
Speaker 1: that child with a lie. Because the truth is that

889
00:51:20,760 --> 00:51:24,040
Speaker 1: the world is beautiful. People are beautiful. There are these possibilities,

890
00:51:24,040 --> 00:51:27,800
Speaker 1: and if you limit yourself from engaging with people, understanding people,

891
00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:32,319
Speaker 1: loving people because of their color, or their ethnicity or

892
00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:35,959
Speaker 1: where they were born, you're not actually experiencing all that

893
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:39,320
Speaker 1: I think God wants us to experience. And so I

894
00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:42,000
Speaker 1: think we have to confront this topic. We have to

895
00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:45,480
Speaker 1: pursue this topic, uh, not with a threat, but with

896
00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:49,400
Speaker 1: an invitation, with an expectation that we can get someplace better.

897
00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:52,080
Speaker 1: I think where we are is better than where we

898
00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:54,520
Speaker 1: have been when we didn't allow inter racial marriage, when

899
00:51:54,520 --> 00:51:57,400
Speaker 1: we didn't allow integration and public spaces. I think we've

900
00:51:57,480 --> 00:52:00,960
Speaker 1: developed some things, We've experienced, some things, we've had. Some

901
00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:05,200
Speaker 1: wonderful things happened because we got past that fear. I

902
00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:08,720
Speaker 1: just think there's more fear to overcome. There are more

903
00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:11,879
Speaker 1: challenges that we must meet. There will be a time

904
00:52:12,080 --> 00:52:14,200
Speaker 1: when we can claim to be great in ways we've

905
00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:17,279
Speaker 1: never been great before. But we won't achieve that if

906
00:52:17,280 --> 00:52:19,520
Speaker 1: we're unwilling to confront the legacy of our history of

907
00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:23,680
Speaker 1: racial inequality. And I just think we are all invited

908
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:26,960
Speaker 1: to that task and some wonderful things are waiting for

909
00:52:27,080 --> 00:52:31,720
Speaker 1: us if we have the courage to meet that challenge. Amen. Amen,

910
00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:36,520
Speaker 1: Brother Stevenson. Now you can see why I just love

911
00:52:36,600 --> 00:52:41,600
Speaker 1: talking to Brian because both Brian's but especially this Brian

912
00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:45,520
Speaker 1: and Montgomery, because it is uh you You just I

913
00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:50,080
Speaker 1: think are so compelling in your arguments and it's really

914
00:52:50,120 --> 00:52:54,600
Speaker 1: hard to argue with the really important points you make

915
00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:57,120
Speaker 1: and make so well. Brian, thank you so much for

916
00:52:57,200 --> 00:53:00,440
Speaker 1: talking with us. I hope people listen to this podcast

917
00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:03,960
Speaker 1: from beginning to end because there's so many important things

918
00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:06,800
Speaker 1: they need to hear and they need to talk about,

919
00:53:06,960 --> 00:53:12,440
Speaker 1: and I'm hoping will help encourage and facilitate a conversation. Brian,

920
00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:17,040
Speaker 1: Thanks so much. Thank you. Katie. A big thank you

921
00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:19,960
Speaker 1: as always to our team behind the scenes, Gianna Palmer,

922
00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:24,760
Speaker 1: Nora Richie, and Jared O'Connell over at Stitcher, Betamas, Alison Bresnik,

923
00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:27,760
Speaker 1: and Emily Binge from Katie Kurk Media. Thank you, guys,

924
00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:30,680
Speaker 1: and a special thanks this week to Kyle from Troy

925
00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:34,279
Speaker 1: Public Radio and Steve and all of my friends at

926
00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:37,239
Speaker 1: Hobo Audio. They're so nice here and they always have

927
00:53:37,280 --> 00:53:40,560
Speaker 1: those little miniature Reese's cups, and thank you for that

928
00:53:40,600 --> 00:53:44,520
Speaker 1: as well. Katie and I are the show's executive producers.

929
00:53:44,719 --> 00:53:48,400
Speaker 1: Mark Phillips wrote, are very catchy theme music, and don't forget.

930
00:53:48,480 --> 00:53:51,360
Speaker 1: We'd love to hear your thoughts on being Muslim in America,

931
00:53:51,560 --> 00:53:54,640
Speaker 1: which is the next topic I'm covering in my national

932
00:53:54,680 --> 00:53:58,239
Speaker 1: geographic series. The episode is called The Muslim next Door

933
00:53:58,360 --> 00:54:01,440
Speaker 1: and it airs on April eight, eighth, So leave us

934
00:54:01,480 --> 00:54:04,399
Speaker 1: your messages at nine to nine to four four six

935
00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:06,880
Speaker 1: three seven, or as always, you can drop us a

936
00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:11,360
Speaker 1: line at comments at Current podcast dot com. Brian is

937
00:54:11,400 --> 00:54:14,680
Speaker 1: on Twitter at Goldsmith b I'm under Katie Curic on

938
00:54:14,760 --> 00:54:18,720
Speaker 1: just about every major social media platform there is. That's

939
00:54:18,719 --> 00:54:21,120
Speaker 1: our show for today. As always, thank you so much

940
00:54:21,160 --> 00:54:23,600
Speaker 1: for listening, and we'll talk to you next week.