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Speaker 1: Pushkin.

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Speaker 2: Hello and welcome back to The Spill. I'm Amy Westervelt.

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Speaker 2: This is Drilled's weekly newscast. We run it every Friday

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Speaker 2: in between narrative seasons. And today we're going to talk

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Speaker 2: about what else the thing everybody's excited about. No, not Brazil. No,

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Speaker 2: not the U.S.

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Speaker 3: Elections.

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Speaker 2: Not Serbia. Cop 31, baby. All right. Introduce yourself, guys.

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Speaker 4: Hello, I'm Nina Lakhani. I'm the Global Climate Justice Reporter

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Speaker 4: for Drilled.

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Speaker 5: Hello, I'm Royce Kamla. I'm an Australian journalist and author.

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Speaker 1: All right.

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Speaker 2: So, Nina, you interviewed Harjeet Singh, who we're going to

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Speaker 2: hear from a little bit later. Tell us just a

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Speaker 2: little bit about who he is in the context of

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Speaker 2: like the pantheon of cop history.

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Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

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Speaker 4: Hajit Singh is the best dressed man in the climate world,

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Speaker 4: number one, always shows up at 10. Hajit is like

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Speaker 4: a veteran climate activist who's got many, many, many cops

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Speaker 4: under the belt.

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Speaker 3: He's from New Delhi in India.

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Speaker 4: We had like a sort of, you know, a global

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Speaker 4: political advisory role with CAN, which is this massive collection of.

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Speaker 3: Like climate activists.

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Speaker 4: And environmental groups globally, like thousands of them. He is

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Speaker 4: also part of the Fossil Fuel Non-Proliferation Treaty set up team,

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Speaker 4: and he's been part of that for a long time.

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Speaker 4: You know, my interview with him is really about what

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Speaker 4: the climate justice movement is sort of, has their eyes

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Speaker 4: on what are the big ticket items in Turkey this year.

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Speaker 4: We dug into what role the civil society has in

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Speaker 4: this COP process? Because they're mostly not in the negotiating rooms.

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Speaker 4: So what role do they have and why is it

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Speaker 4: so important that they're there?

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Speaker 2: So fun fact, journalists also banned from the negotiation rooms.

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Speaker 2: For people who don't know, These annual meetups are, you know,

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Speaker 2: they're bizarre little convenings of the ministers from lots of

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Speaker 2: different countries. They get into various rooms to negotiate different

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Speaker 2: parts of these climate agreements. The rooms each have different

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Speaker 2: topics and themes and events. different people in them. Some

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Speaker 2: civil society groups are, you know, have observer status and

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Speaker 2: like can go in there, but journalists cannot. So we

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Speaker 2: have to like lurk in the hallways and pester people

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Speaker 2: to tell us things.

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Speaker 4: Okay.

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Speaker 2: So Royce and I were in Brazil last year. One

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Speaker 2: of the things that has been happening in the last,

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Speaker 2: like over the last few cops, I would say is

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Speaker 2: this like kind of ridiculous back and forth about whether

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Speaker 2: we can save fossil fuels in the global climate agreement.

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Speaker 2: The first time that we officially talked about phasing out

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Speaker 2: fossil fuels was the COP26 in Dubai, which you were

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Speaker 2: also at, right, Royce?

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Speaker 1: Yep. I was.

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Speaker 2: You were too?

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Speaker 4: Okay.

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Speaker 2: So you guys were both there at this historic moment

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Speaker 2: where we finally talked about fossil fuels in a climate agreement.

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Speaker 2: And Brazil was supposed to be like the implementation cop

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Speaker 2: where we went from like saying that that was a

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Speaker 2: thing that was going to happen to figuring out how

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Speaker 2: to do it. But there was a huge amount of pushback.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, maybe both of you can talk a little

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Speaker 2: bit about what's happened in in the interim. Yeah, Nina,

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Speaker 2: you want to start?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, sure. So yeah, despite a big effort by Brazil,

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Speaker 4: they couldn't get a consensus on including anything around fossil

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Speaker 4: fuels in their final agreement. At the end of that, basically,

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Speaker 4: Brazil said, you know what, okay, but we are going

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Speaker 4: to work unilaterally on this fossil fuel phase-out roadmap. And

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Speaker 4: we will present it. We will do this year of work. And,

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Speaker 4: you know, they've put a lot of work into it.

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Speaker 4: They've been around everywhere, talking to lots of people. And actually,

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Speaker 4: the person that was leading that, I remember speaking to

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Speaker 4: her a few months ago, and she was saying, you

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Speaker 4: know what, the election is going to be really important.

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Speaker 4: You If Lula loses, I think it will be a

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Speaker 4: sort of, well, we've got nothing to lose.

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Speaker 3: Let's just say everything, right?

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Speaker 4: And if Lula wins, you know, we've got like the

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Speaker 4: mandate to push forward with this. So they are handing

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Speaker 4: over this roadmap any day now, right? That will be

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Speaker 4: handed over to Turkey and Australia any day now. So

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Speaker 4: how that then gets sort of woven in to the

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Speaker 4: COP31 process, we're yet to see. But the other thing

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Speaker 4: that came out of that was, there was so much

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Speaker 4: sort of frustration at this consensus-led process that has absolutely

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Speaker 4: been a way for people big polluting countries to block

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Speaker 4: climate action for like 30 plus years, right? So what

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Speaker 4: you had was this coalition of the willing, which Colombia

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Speaker 4: was leading to say that, you know what, we are

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Speaker 4: not going to wait for you anymore. We're going to

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Speaker 4: just go ahead and start talking about how. And so

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Speaker 4: that led in April of this year to the first

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Speaker 4: transitioning away from fossil fuels conference, which was in Santa Marta, Colombia,

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Speaker 4: which I attended. There's a second one that's now planned

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Speaker 4: for the Pacific Islands next year. which will be co-hosted

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Speaker 4: by Ireland and Tuvalu. But I think really what this

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Speaker 4: tells us is that actually, for years, we've been thinking

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Speaker 4: COP is going to deliver something which it never was

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Speaker 4: going to be able to deliver. It's a consensus-based process.

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Speaker 3: It is nothing but.

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Speaker 4: A cog in the wheel of much larger, a much

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Speaker 4: bigger picture of that's climate litigation, it's advocacy. It's climate science,

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Speaker 4: all of these other processes and important parts that are

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Speaker 4: going on. And really, I think if we understand the

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Speaker 4: COP process like that, it's perhaps less soul-destroying than it.

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Speaker 3: Would otherwise be, right? It's just one part of this

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Speaker 3: bigger process.

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Speaker 2: And when Nina says consensus-based, what she's referring to there

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Speaker 2: is that.

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Speaker 2: Somehow, and then, well, we know how mostly it was

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Speaker 2: like fossil fuel lobbyists that got this, you know, embedded

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Speaker 2: in the system. The powers that be decided that we

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Speaker 2: needed to have unanimous consensus on how to deal with

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Speaker 2: this problem, which is never going to happen when you

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Speaker 2: have Saudi Arabia and the US in the room. Nina

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Speaker 2: mentioned something there, Royce, that I want you to explain

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Speaker 2: to people, which is Turkey and Australia.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Why are both of those the host this year? That's

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Speaker 2: an unusual thing for a cop.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, well, it's also we're taking a step back and

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Speaker 5: looking at the geopolitics. And as we found out last year,

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Speaker 5: the U.S. was not in the room, but it was

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Speaker 5: still in the room.

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Speaker 1: The U.S.

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Speaker 5: Negotiating team were there under different badges.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they were floating around.

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Speaker 3: People were like, oh, that's so-and-so and that's so-and-so.

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Speaker 2: And like, yeah. They were still there.

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Speaker 5: And I think it's also worth pointing out as well.

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Speaker 5: There's a lot of discussion about a frustration at COP,

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Speaker 5: but also like the fossil fuel companies keep turning up,

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Speaker 5: you know, the major petro states keep turning up. There

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Speaker 5: is a reason why these people are involved in this

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Speaker 5: process and are working so hard to understand the rules and,

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Speaker 5: you know, act in this way is because it allows

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Speaker 5: them to get what they want out of their various geopolitics.

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Speaker 5: When it comes to Turkey and Australia, it's a fascinating story.

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Speaker 5: Every year, who hosts COP rotates between various different groups.

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Speaker 5: Australia happens to be in the same group as Turkey

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Speaker 5: in a lot of European countries. And there was some

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Speaker 5: contestation around who gets to host. So it was either

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Speaker 5: going to be Turkey or Australia. Turkey had a deal

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Speaker 5: with the UK previously, where Turkey would not stand in

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Speaker 5: the way of the UK's previous nomination to host. If

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Speaker 5: the UK supported Turkey, the next time it came around... Basically,

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Speaker 5: the UK seemed to walk back on that to back

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Speaker 5: the Australian bid because Australia decided that it really wanted

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Speaker 5: to host this. And Australia is being pushed to host

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Speaker 5: this as well by its relationship to the Pacific. You

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Speaker 5: have these countries that have been very much leading the

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Speaker 5: way for fossil fuel phase out and various other mechanisms

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Speaker 5: and treaties. And Australia has started to freak out in

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Speaker 5: recent years over the role of China being in Pacific.

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Speaker 5: And it realizes it needs to do something about this.

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Speaker 5: And the chief security issue for the Pacific is climate change,

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Speaker 5: which means that Australia has to care about climate change.

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Speaker 5: And we can talk a bit about that later. So

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Speaker 5: you had this kind of contest between Turkey and Australia. Erdogan,

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Speaker 5: who is the president of Turkey, his wife is really

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Speaker 5: committed to recycling.

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Speaker 1: Big wife guy.

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Speaker 2: Who knew?

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Speaker 1: Yep.

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Speaker 5: Erdogan. Very practical environmentalism. and was pushing hard for this.

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Speaker 5: It came down to the 11th hour. Australia was insisting

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Speaker 5: negotiations were ongoing up until the very 11th hour, even

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Speaker 5: if you can hear the Turkish delegation celebrating from their

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Speaker 5: office in the COP building in Belém, Brazil. So the result,

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Speaker 5: the compromise was that there was this weird hybrid model.

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Speaker 5: Turkey would host and hold the party. Australia would run

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Speaker 5: the negotiations. And what this does in effect is create

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Speaker 5: a very precarious situation for Australia whereby Australia kind of

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Speaker 5: takes the blame if it all goes wrong and gets

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Speaker 5: none of the glory if it goes right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: You guys definitely drew the short straw.

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Speaker 1: It's not great.

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Speaker 5: That's what we're going to get.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, to be fair, Australia, like, the US

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Speaker 4: hadn't wanted part why because all eyes are on the

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Speaker 4: country there and then Australia's in the top five villains

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Speaker 4: of obviously causing climate change and you know continuing to

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Speaker 4: roll out fossil fuels etc but I mean I do

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Speaker 4: think it's important to say like you know it is

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Speaker 4: regional as you're saying was that you know it goes

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Speaker 4: from region to region but actually it's one of the

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Speaker 4: big issues in recent years it's been that no one

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Speaker 4: wants to do it because it's really freaking expensive it's.

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Speaker 2: Like the Olympics right yeah Yeah.

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Speaker 3: It's expensive.

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Speaker 4: It's hard to host. I mean, you know, you get

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Speaker 4: a lot of attention on what's happening in your own backyard.

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Speaker 3: Whether it be the human.

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Speaker 4: Rights situation, like in Sharm el-Sheikh or Dubai also. So

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Speaker 4: there's a lot of that. So it's not that countries

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Speaker 4: are like fighting at the bit to do it either, right?

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: And also just to say about the consensus thing, Amy,

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Speaker 4: just like just to remind our listeners that All UN

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Speaker 4: processes are contested space. It's like the beauty of it

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Speaker 4: is that everyone has a seat at the table. The

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Speaker 4: beast of it is the big boys get to bully

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Speaker 4: you in a lot of the decisions.

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Speaker 5: Yeah. And also the developing world keeps showing up. And

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Speaker 5: I think this is often what is lost in this

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Speaker 5: is that for all the frustration of this, it's developing countries,

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Speaker 5: it's countries that are very exposed to climate harms. They're

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Speaker 5: the ones who consistently try to turn up year after year,

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Speaker 5: even though it's incredibly expensive and time and money to

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Speaker 5: send someone from the Pacific or from the Caribbean to

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Speaker 5: these processes. But they are still there. They're still insisting

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Speaker 5: upon them. They're still demanding that they work. That has

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Speaker 5: to count for something, I think.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: It depends on like which room you're looking at. But

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Speaker 2: some of the ways that obstruction shows up in these

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Speaker 2: negotiations is like not so obvious. You know, it's not like, oh, well,

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Speaker 2: we want to get rid of any mention of fossil

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Speaker 2: fuels or whatever. Like that stuff does happen. But a

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Speaker 2: lot of times it's just delay. You know, it's like

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Speaker 2: if we can just... hold out for long enough, then

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Speaker 2: some like subset of countries will go home because they

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Speaker 2: can't afford to keep their negotiators here for too long.

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Speaker 2: People will get tired. People will bend. Like this is

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Speaker 2: the Saudi strategy over and over again. It's like rarely

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Speaker 2: super confrontational. And then the other thing, like I found

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Speaker 2: this fascinating last year in Brazil, like the way that

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Speaker 2: weird cultural stuff will make its way into these negotiations too.

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Speaker 2: So like in one of the rooms, Paraguay was trying

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Speaker 2: to insist on like a biological definition of gender being

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Speaker 2: part of the freaking climate agreement. It runs the gamut

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Speaker 2: of like ridiculous to mind numbingly boring. Anyway, so what

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Speaker 2: are things that you guys are kind of keeping an

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Speaker 2: eye out for with this year's COP?

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Speaker 5: I did go to pre-COP for my sins. It was

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Speaker 5: an interesting experience. So for those who don't know, pre-COP

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Speaker 5: is a meeting that is held before the main conference.

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Speaker 5: It basically is one of the precursor meetings that allows

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Speaker 5: countries to kind of set the agenda or set the

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Speaker 5: board for what will happen at COP. This pre-COP was

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Speaker 5: different in a sense because part of the deal with

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Speaker 5: Turkey for this hybrid model is that Turkey gets to

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Speaker 5: host the COP, Australia will get to host the pre-COP

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Speaker 5: in the Pacific. And this was partly because the Pacific, again,

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Speaker 5: have been wanting the COP process to come out to

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Speaker 5: the Pacific. And for countries, particularly in the global north,

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Speaker 5: like Europe, who normally don't have to travel very far.

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Speaker 2: To see firsthand what climate change is doing to them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, to have to travel and see for themselves what's

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Speaker 5: going on and actually come to a place that's directly

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Speaker 5: affected by this. The pre-cop was held in Nandi, a

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Speaker 5: kind of a resort, a touristy island of Fiji. This

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Speaker 5: is the second time it was held in Fiji. The

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Speaker 5: first was in 2017. Normally, these meetings are very boring. Normally,

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Speaker 5: these are just a minister sitting at a table talking

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Speaker 5: about what will be on the agenda. This one had

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Speaker 5: a cop feel, and it was designed to have a

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Speaker 5: cop feel. And through it all, you had people from

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Speaker 5: across the Pacific who would not normally get to travel.

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Speaker 5: turning up to host side events and talk and network.

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Speaker 5: You had civil society groups from across the region and

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Speaker 5: Australia feeling obligated and like they had to send someone

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Speaker 5: and show up for this because this was in their region.

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Speaker 5: And it was interesting in that sense. There was also

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Speaker 5: a kind of weird sense of unreality about it because

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Speaker 5: this is not a COP, right? There are not announceables.

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Speaker 5: The point is not to generate headlines, but there had

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Speaker 5: to be a little bit of that. And within this,

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Speaker 5: there is all the kind of interesting both national, regional

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Speaker 5: and global politics that were playing out, which you can

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Speaker 5: read about in my story for Drilled about three cops,

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Speaker 5: which I talk about some of this sneaky little plug

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Speaker 5: right there. As Nina, you mentioned, Australia is one of

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Speaker 5: the world's biggest fossil fuel exporters. It's, I think, devised

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Speaker 5: the top three of liquid natural gas exports. It's a

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Speaker 5: major coal exporter. At the same time, its emissions per

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Speaker 5: capita are some of the highest in the world, even

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Speaker 5: if its overall emissions are small relative to countries like

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Speaker 5: China or the U.S., Australia keeps talking about how it's

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Speaker 5: leading on climate change, keeps wanting to focus on the

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Speaker 5: holy trinity of batteries, EVs and solar panels. But if

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Speaker 5: Australia wants to do right by the Pacific, if it

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Speaker 5: wants to live up to its rhetoric, it needs to

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Speaker 5: actually do good on climate change. And as we know,

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Speaker 5: it has a seesaw policy, as you said, Nina. The

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Speaker 5: right-wing in Australian politics right now has lined up uniformly

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Speaker 5: behind climate denial. In fact, the main conservative party pledged

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Speaker 5: yesterday to absolutely gut climate policy in this country if

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Speaker 5: ever returned to power in order to save $ 30 billion

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Speaker 5: for the budget. We have a demagogic right-wing party, One Nation,

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Speaker 5: that absolutely denies climate change is happening and wants to

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Speaker 5: basically tear down any support for renewable energy and build

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Speaker 5: coal-fired power plants. So if the current government ever loses power,

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Speaker 5: that's what we're looking at. And that's completely kind of

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Speaker 5: in contradiction to the stuff that the Australian government is

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Speaker 5: representing on international stage and goes to questions about authority,

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Speaker 5: weight and credibility when the country engages with the Pacific

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Speaker 5: and the rest of the world.

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Speaker 2: Nina, what are you going to be looking out for

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Speaker 2: at this year's COP?

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Speaker 4: It's always all about the money. You talked about these

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Speaker 4: subtle ways of delaying stuff at COP, Amy. One that

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Speaker 4: happens all of the time is that when you have

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Speaker 4: the just transition pathway, the developed countries are We'll literally

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Speaker 4: ban anyone using the word adaptation in that work scheme.

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Speaker 2: And in the adaptation room, you're not allowed to say

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Speaker 2: loss and damage or finance at all.

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Speaker 3: Exactly. I will use Australia as an example. It could

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Speaker 3: be any country.

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Speaker 4: Australia's failure to actually transition away from fossil fuels is

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Speaker 4: making the cost of adaptation lower. In the Pacific Islands,

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Speaker 4: but also in Australia, surge. And the more that we

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Speaker 4: don't spend on adaptation, the more irreversible loss and damage

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Speaker 4: that we have. So there's a Venn diagram and most

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Speaker 4: of it's overlap.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So that's what I'm interested in. I mean, loss and

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Speaker 4: damage is not going to be a main agenda item.

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Speaker 4: It's already been relegated to the peripheries. And I think

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Speaker 4: a lot of the Climate justice movement will be there

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Speaker 4: in pressuring and talking about that. But I think a

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Speaker 4: lot of the effort and I think a lot of

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Speaker 4: the focus is going to be looking at the climate

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Speaker 4: adaptation and the just transition pathways to really pushing.

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Speaker 3: Hard on those. And in the end, you know, we

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Speaker 3: now know.

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Speaker 4: That actually we need two to three trillion dollars a

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Speaker 4: year to cover all the different things that we need.

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Speaker 3: Mitigation, adaptation and loss and damage.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 3: And we are like, you know, a percent of that is. Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 4: You know, and I'm just really interested in like to see.

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Speaker 4: how Turkey responds, you know, another country not known for

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Speaker 4: its openness or like pro-democracy stance on anything. So, but,

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Speaker 4: you know, the climate movement will be there doing the

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Speaker 4: pressure on the streets, the protests and rallies, you know,

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Speaker 4: the calling out of fossil fuel lobbyists. Big ad lobbyists,

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Speaker 4: all of that, you know. So, yeah, so I think

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Speaker 4: their role is super important. But, yeah, it's all about

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Speaker 4: the money.

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Speaker 5: I mean, and so there's always the element that's of interest.

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Speaker 5: I'm curious this year about how hard the AI hyperscalers

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Speaker 5: are going to turn up in order to try.

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Speaker 1: And sell their wares.

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Speaker 5: I mean, that's an interesting list on an old genre, right?

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Speaker 5: The other thing is that I continue to be interested

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Speaker 5: in this question about the crisis legitimacy facing the cop process, right?

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Speaker 5: This is the venue by which the world has to

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Speaker 5: talk about this for better or worse. But if we

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Speaker 5: can't solve things, eventually that's going to become to a head.

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Speaker 5: It's going to cause a crisis and then we'll see

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Speaker 5: what happens then. And so, I mean, I don't necessarily

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Speaker 5: think it's going to come to a head this year

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Speaker 5: because I think everyone wants to kind of keep things

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Speaker 5: fairly stage managed and keep the process going and no

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Speaker 5: one really wants a big bust up. But it's always

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Speaker 5: possible that it might. And given this weird hybrid model,

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Speaker 5: given the pressures going on, given what happened at the

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Speaker 5: end of COP last year, where in the absence of

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Speaker 5: the US, you had this weird vacuum between the different

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Speaker 5: countries that descended into a yelling match almost in the

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Speaker 5: closing plenary about procedure. Anything can happen.

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Speaker 4: It's funny, I think if you'd asked me two years ago, Royce,

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Speaker 4: I would have been like, cops days are numbered. And actually,

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Speaker 4: I don't think that now. I feel like with this

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Speaker 4: sort of transitioning away from fossil fuels work that's going on,

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Speaker 4: I think there's been a sort of, you know, this

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Speaker 4: real realisation that we're there, we're going to hold you accountable.

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Speaker 4: We're actually going to go ahead and do the work

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Speaker 4: and feed into that, right?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because I feel like people, I think, very mistakenly

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Speaker 2: saw initially the Santa Marta track as being, you know,

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Speaker 2: somehow like an attempt to hijack a cop or repress

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Speaker 2: a cop or whatever. And it's like, no, actually, it's

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Speaker 2: a really nice compliment to it. And it kind of

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Speaker 2: has acted as like a little bit of a release

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Speaker 2: valve on some of those tensions, because... All these countries

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Speaker 2: that are like, we want to be able to do

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Speaker 2: this thing that we haven't been able to do have

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Speaker 2: just kind of been like, well, fuck it. We're going

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Speaker 2: to do it. And we can do it in parallel

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Speaker 2: with this other process. And they don't actually have to

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Speaker 2: take anything away from each other. I don't know. It's

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Speaker 2: kind of a subculture. nice development.

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Speaker 5: It's a really interesting political maneuver, right?

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: It's like, okay, well, we can't talk about this in

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Speaker 5: the process. We're going to have a sidebar and talk

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Speaker 5: about the practicalities in this particular meetup. And then that

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Speaker 5: will then feed back into the process. Because what you're

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Speaker 5: doing is creating, like you're creating the foundations for another

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Speaker 5: political block to emerge.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 5: And the cop process means you run that out long enough.

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Speaker 5: The cop process will either have to accommodate and adopt

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Speaker 5: and take over those ideas and incorporate those ideas or

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Speaker 5: it won't. And then if it doesn't, then that crisis

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Speaker 5: of legitimacy deepens. And also there is a potential that

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Speaker 5: with like the US attacks on Iran and the closure

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Speaker 5: of the Strait of Hormuz, and they're kind of blocked

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Speaker 5: off one-fifth of global oil shipping, that these issues actually,

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Speaker 5: because of the security framing around them, actually get more

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Speaker 5: uptake this time around.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's going to be interesting actually to see.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think both of those things... Yeah, I think

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Speaker 4: that's right. And don't forget, there is history on this.

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Speaker 4: The Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty came about in exactly the same way.

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Speaker 3: There wasn't a consensus and so.

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Speaker 4: You had this break-off group to gather political momentum together.

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Speaker 4: you know like to you know again a coalition willing

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Speaker 4: and and it's not a perfect process I mean at

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Speaker 4: Santa Marta a lot of the sort of power structures

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Speaker 4: were repeated right and why wouldn't they be if you

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Speaker 4: put the same people in a room you're going to

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Speaker 4: have that but I think this idea that you know

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Speaker 4: we've got to try something else because you know what

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Speaker 4: we can't just every year do the same thing and

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Speaker 4: expect the results to be different right we've got to

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Speaker 4: try and create a pressure back pump from somewhere else.

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Speaker 4: And yeah, I totally agree with you, Royce, I think

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Speaker 4: in terms of like the Strait of Hormuz and like

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Speaker 4: the illegal war in Iran. And also just I think

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Speaker 4: I see compared to when I first started reporting on

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Speaker 4: military emissions and the huge emissions gap that is completely

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Speaker 4: unaccounted for, like because thanks to the US during the

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Speaker 4: Clinton administration, the Pentagon like pressured enough to keep it

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Speaker 4: out of the accounting, right? I see more movement around,

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Speaker 4: pressure around that, that big hole. Like I see much

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Speaker 4: more movement and momentum gathering around ecocide to be recognised

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Speaker 4: as an international crime, right? And you're seeing this, I

437
00:22:13,321 --> 00:22:18,422
Speaker 4: think this is a convergence of these, you know, authoritarian leaders,

438
00:22:18,482 --> 00:22:21,361
Speaker 4: these illegal wars, a genocide in Palestine, do you know

439
00:22:21,382 --> 00:22:24,482
Speaker 4: what I mean? Like in just an utter, utter climate

440
00:22:24,522 --> 00:22:27,061
Speaker 4: breakdown happening. And I think, so you are, you know,

441
00:22:27,081 --> 00:22:28,901
Speaker 4: there's these pressure points. And so you have to have

442
00:22:28,962 --> 00:22:32,952
Speaker 4: some sort of like political mechanism that works along with

443
00:22:33,972 --> 00:22:36,712
Speaker 4: you know, grassroots movements, the streets. I mean, I think

444
00:22:36,752 --> 00:22:40,871
Speaker 4: the fact that Lula won last night by 4 million votes.

445
00:22:40,591 --> 00:22:43,851
Speaker 3: Is going to be a huge boost going into COP, right?

446
00:22:43,932 --> 00:22:46,392
Speaker 4: It really is because I think the roadmap, I think

447
00:22:46,452 --> 00:22:48,471
Speaker 4: it's going to have a lot more oomph behind it.

448
00:22:48,542 --> 00:22:50,622
Speaker 4: I think it's going to have a lot more legitimacy

449
00:22:50,762 --> 00:22:54,282
Speaker 4: behind it. Also, you know, in Serbia, a small European country,

450
00:22:54,321 --> 00:22:56,402
Speaker 4: but they rejected an autocrat.

451
00:22:56,502 --> 00:23:00,061
Speaker 2: Also, can we just pause for a moment and celebrate

452
00:23:00,222 --> 00:23:03,772
Speaker 2: Hungary's Getting rid of Orban too. Like that wasn't that

453
00:23:03,811 --> 00:23:06,452
Speaker 2: long ago. Let's throw that in the mix as well.

454
00:23:06,972 --> 00:23:07,612
Speaker 3: Exactly.

455
00:23:07,811 --> 00:23:08,671
Speaker 1: Exactly.

456
00:23:08,772 --> 00:23:12,892
Speaker 4: The cockroaches on the streets of India, like beautiful, you know,

457
00:23:12,932 --> 00:23:15,612
Speaker 4: the protest in France, in Spain, Italy. I was like,

458
00:23:15,632 --> 00:23:17,632
Speaker 4: do you know me? Like, you know, and these things

459
00:23:17,672 --> 00:23:20,782
Speaker 4: are all connected and that's something, you know. Stay tuned

460
00:23:20,802 --> 00:23:23,061
Speaker 4: to listen to Harjit because he talks a lot about that.

461
00:23:23,121 --> 00:23:25,522
Speaker 3: Just how, you know, this is all connected, right?

462
00:23:25,621 --> 00:23:28,932
Speaker 4: And like not having money for climate mitigation or adaptation,

463
00:23:29,192 --> 00:23:32,891
Speaker 4: but having money for illegal wars or not having money

464
00:23:32,912 --> 00:23:35,032
Speaker 4: for health, but having money for legal wars. The people

465
00:23:35,091 --> 00:23:38,042
Speaker 4: and especially the young people are completely done with it, right?

466
00:23:38,502 --> 00:23:39,822
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally.

467
00:23:40,712 --> 00:23:41,052
Speaker 1: Awesome.

468
00:23:41,111 --> 00:23:41,452
Speaker 2: All right.

469
00:23:41,752 --> 00:23:42,492
Speaker 3: What about you, Amy?

470
00:23:42,912 --> 00:23:43,612
Speaker 1: Oh, me. Okay.

471
00:23:43,652 --> 00:23:45,071
Speaker 2: I was going to say that's a good place to

472
00:23:45,111 --> 00:23:45,391
Speaker 2: end it.

473
00:23:45,952 --> 00:23:46,882
Speaker 3: No, what about you?

474
00:23:47,861 --> 00:23:50,482
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I'm always looking at like, I do,

475
00:23:50,601 --> 00:23:53,502
Speaker 2: I actually am, I, I am totally obsessed with all

476
00:23:53,522 --> 00:23:56,602
Speaker 2: the little like side events happening at COP because, well, A,

477
00:23:56,722 --> 00:23:59,812
Speaker 2: you know, we continue to see fossil fuel companies like

478
00:23:59,851 --> 00:24:03,252
Speaker 2: brokering deals on the sidelines of COP. That's like become

479
00:24:03,311 --> 00:24:07,331
Speaker 2: a new thing, new old thing. Probably was always happening.

480
00:24:07,351 --> 00:24:10,631
Speaker 2: It's just more brazen now. But then also like the

481
00:24:11,071 --> 00:24:16,062
Speaker 2: side events content-wise too are really interesting because you'll end

482
00:24:16,132 --> 00:24:19,221
Speaker 2: up with these– You know, industry group events, like we

483
00:24:19,262 --> 00:24:21,942
Speaker 2: went to an IPICA event in Brazil. This is this

484
00:24:22,042 --> 00:24:27,141
Speaker 2: weird little industry group that basically like organizes the fossil

485
00:24:27,182 --> 00:24:31,102
Speaker 2: fuel industry's approach to international climate negotiations. And they're just

486
00:24:31,142 --> 00:24:34,161
Speaker 2: so honest at these events because no one's showing up

487
00:24:34,202 --> 00:24:36,822
Speaker 2: to them, you know? So they really say the quiet

488
00:24:36,861 --> 00:24:39,552
Speaker 2: part out loud. Well, like, and the thing I'm actually

489
00:24:39,571 --> 00:24:43,651
Speaker 2: really watching is... I'm very freaked out at the moment

490
00:24:43,712 --> 00:24:48,272
Speaker 2: by how quickly geoengineering has just like leapfrogged into like

491
00:24:48,452 --> 00:24:51,992
Speaker 2: just right past carbon capture until the thing that we're

492
00:24:52,871 --> 00:24:57,462
Speaker 2: embracing as a solution, especially amidst the AI boom. And

493
00:24:57,882 --> 00:25:02,622
Speaker 2: I think nuclear too, like I'm hearing... So many right

494
00:25:02,702 --> 00:25:06,601
Speaker 2: wing guys in particular and the energy secretary in the US,

495
00:25:06,682 --> 00:25:09,752
Speaker 2: Chris Wright, is a big nuclear guy. They've already been

496
00:25:09,892 --> 00:25:12,552
Speaker 2: kind of like boosters for nuclear, but now they're like, oh,

497
00:25:12,611 --> 00:25:16,012
Speaker 2: this is how we solve this energy problem. It's like

498
00:25:16,052 --> 00:25:18,732
Speaker 2: just throw nuclear at it. So, yeah.

499
00:25:19,292 --> 00:25:22,282
Speaker 4: Isn't Bill Gates and all over that in the US, right?

500
00:25:22,361 --> 00:25:23,822
Speaker 4: He's like big data center guy.

501
00:25:24,292 --> 00:25:24,462
Speaker 1: Yeah.

502
00:25:25,132 --> 00:25:26,052
Speaker 3: So tech guys in.

503
00:25:26,032 --> 00:25:29,341
Speaker 2: General, there's something very appealing about it, I think, for

504
00:25:29,821 --> 00:25:32,702
Speaker 2: the tech bros. So, yeah.

505
00:25:33,061 --> 00:25:35,492
Speaker 3: But you're saying countries all... I mean, you know, obviously France.

506
00:25:36,942 --> 00:25:38,302
Speaker 2: For a long time.

507
00:25:38,382 --> 00:25:42,222
Speaker 4: It gets a B-minus always on its sort of fossil fuel,

508
00:25:42,341 --> 00:25:45,221
Speaker 4: you know, usage because it's mostly nuclear, right? But I mean,

509
00:25:45,262 --> 00:25:48,602
Speaker 4: I grew up as a young teenager going to campaign

510
00:25:48,642 --> 00:25:50,982
Speaker 4: against nuclear disarmament marches, right?

511
00:25:51,061 --> 00:25:54,601
Speaker 3: And we thought we'd won that battle, but I don't know.

512
00:25:54,722 --> 00:25:58,032
Speaker 2: It's back. weirdly I was talking to this guy this

513
00:25:58,091 --> 00:26:01,532
Speaker 2: morning who like worked at Exxon in the 70s so

514
00:26:01,571 --> 00:26:03,611
Speaker 2: he's like pretty old and at the end he was

515
00:26:03,632 --> 00:26:05,611
Speaker 2: like I have a question for you and I was

516
00:26:05,632 --> 00:26:07,512
Speaker 2: like okay he's like do you know any journalists that

517
00:26:07,552 --> 00:26:11,592
Speaker 2: are working on radioactive waste because I feel like all

518
00:26:11,632 --> 00:26:15,592
Speaker 2: of a sudden I'm seeing this huge increase in interest

519
00:26:15,652 --> 00:26:18,072
Speaker 2: about nuclear again and he's like and you know like

520
00:26:18,722 --> 00:26:21,361
Speaker 2: He's a scientist and like a technologist, right? So he's like,

521
00:26:21,601 --> 00:26:24,482
Speaker 2: we have actually solved quite a few of the technological

522
00:26:24,601 --> 00:26:27,312
Speaker 2: limitations on nuclear, but the thing that we still have

523
00:26:27,732 --> 00:26:30,912
Speaker 2: not solved is the waste problem, which I know.

524
00:26:30,932 --> 00:26:34,192
Speaker 3: Which will kill us. Yeah, which is a pretty big problem,

525
00:26:34,232 --> 00:26:34,611
Speaker 3: you know.

526
00:26:36,252 --> 00:26:40,302
Speaker 5: I could talk for ages about nuclear. We'll be here

527
00:26:40,321 --> 00:26:44,581
Speaker 5: for another 30 minutes. It drives me mad, this stuff.

528
00:26:44,802 --> 00:26:47,061
Speaker 4: It used to get me, honestly, I mean, I remember

529
00:26:47,101 --> 00:26:50,002
Speaker 4: it was really, you know, the campaign against nuclear disarmament

530
00:26:50,022 --> 00:26:52,002
Speaker 4: was like when I was really a kid. And I

531
00:26:52,022 --> 00:26:54,942
Speaker 4: just remember being like in elementary, primary school, I would

532
00:26:54,982 --> 00:26:59,292
Speaker 4: have nightmares about being like a nuclear sort of disaster because,

533
00:26:59,311 --> 00:27:01,152
Speaker 4: you know, the Chernobyl happened and like.

534
00:27:01,232 --> 00:27:01,852
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

535
00:27:02,172 --> 00:27:04,132
Speaker 2: You and I are old enough to have done, like,

536
00:27:04,212 --> 00:27:07,452
Speaker 2: nuclear drills in school. Royce is a little bit, like,

537
00:27:07,732 --> 00:27:09,782
Speaker 2: a little bit behind us on that. Oh, my God.

538
00:27:10,282 --> 00:27:10,582
Speaker 2: I know.

539
00:27:12,002 --> 00:27:15,002
Speaker 4: My favorite necklace I wore for years was a CND.

540
00:27:15,121 --> 00:27:15,782
Speaker 1: Yeah. Like, literally.

541
00:27:15,802 --> 00:27:16,582
Speaker 3: Do you know what I mean?

542
00:27:16,601 --> 00:27:19,402
Speaker 4: Like, my whole teenage life, growing up as a teenager,

543
00:27:19,601 --> 00:27:21,112
Speaker 4: I'm just like, why?

544
00:27:21,311 --> 00:27:22,532
Speaker 3: Why are we going back to this?

545
00:27:22,611 --> 00:27:22,752
Speaker 1: But.

546
00:27:23,591 --> 00:27:26,052
Speaker 2: When I was like, I think I was like nine

547
00:27:26,252 --> 00:27:30,891
Speaker 2: or something. My town, for some reason, like hosted a

548
00:27:30,932 --> 00:27:34,472
Speaker 2: bunch of like Russian exchange students. And we did a

549
00:27:34,532 --> 00:27:41,612
Speaker 2: play together called Peace Child. It was all about like...

550
00:27:41,621 --> 00:27:49,962
Speaker 2: And on that note, a good night. anyway so yeah

551
00:27:50,061 --> 00:27:54,362
Speaker 2: I'm looking out for that and I love actually all

552
00:27:54,522 --> 00:27:57,402
Speaker 2: of like the cop tea like I think the like

553
00:27:57,522 --> 00:28:00,111
Speaker 2: weird little things that come up in the negotiation rooms

554
00:28:00,252 --> 00:28:03,652
Speaker 2: I find delightful so the like piece of gossip I'll

555
00:28:03,692 --> 00:28:08,272
Speaker 2: be looking out for is like further examples of Erdogan

556
00:28:08,371 --> 00:28:12,242
Speaker 2: being a wife guy I think it's hilarious yeah.

557
00:28:12,601 --> 00:28:18,672
Speaker 4: Yeah Yeah, which pavilion has the best coffee? All this

558
00:28:18,692 --> 00:28:21,772
Speaker 4: stuff is very important. It's Australian pavilion.

559
00:28:21,912 --> 00:28:23,111
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.

560
00:28:23,571 --> 00:28:24,711
Speaker 1: Known for its cuisine.

561
00:28:24,732 --> 00:28:25,952
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

562
00:28:26,492 --> 00:28:33,151
Speaker 4: Australia. Yeah. So we'll hear from you again in a

563
00:28:33,192 --> 00:28:33,492
Speaker 4: couple of.

564
00:28:33,472 --> 00:28:34,111
Speaker 1: Weeks, right?

565
00:28:34,152 --> 00:28:34,352
Speaker 4: Yes.

566
00:28:35,532 --> 00:28:37,952
Speaker 2: Yes, we will. We're going to get your recap on

567
00:28:38,032 --> 00:28:41,272
Speaker 2: COP at the end. We're going to contrast it with

568
00:28:41,932 --> 00:28:47,522
Speaker 2: this cheery preview of I'm just kidding. Come back after

569
00:28:47,622 --> 00:28:50,842
Speaker 2: the break to listen to Nina's talk with Harjeet.

570
00:29:10,182 --> 00:29:12,882
Speaker 4: Harjeet Singh, welcome to The Spill. How are you?

571
00:29:14,132 --> 00:29:16,142
Speaker 1: I'm fine, Nina. Thank you very much for having me.

572
00:29:16,402 --> 00:29:20,002
Speaker 4: You're very welcome. So you're in New Delhi in India.

573
00:29:20,122 --> 00:29:25,362
Speaker 4: I'm in Mexico City. And we're speaking the morning after the.

574
00:29:26,782 --> 00:29:31,022
Speaker 4: Seismic result in both Brazil and in Serbia. You know,

575
00:29:31,042 --> 00:29:33,822
Speaker 4: we're going to talk about COP 31, which starts in

576
00:29:33,842 --> 00:29:37,082
Speaker 4: a couple of weeks in Turkey. But I wanted to

577
00:29:37,122 --> 00:29:39,872
Speaker 4: start asking you to ask you about Brazil, which was

578
00:29:39,902 --> 00:29:43,012
Speaker 4: the host of COP 30. A lot of our listeners

579
00:29:43,052 --> 00:29:46,052
Speaker 4: will be obviously, you know, very aware of the UN

580
00:29:46,072 --> 00:29:49,652
Speaker 4: climate talks every year. But what happens in between the

581
00:29:50,172 --> 00:29:52,842
Speaker 4: big sort of events So what happened or what were

582
00:29:52,862 --> 00:29:57,552
Speaker 4: the agreements or pledges made in Brazil a year ago?

583
00:29:58,192 --> 00:30:00,752
Speaker 4: What's happened to those in the run up to COP 31?

584
00:30:00,752 --> 00:30:01,951
Speaker 4: So the Berlin.

585
00:30:03,352 --> 00:30:09,642
Speaker 1: COP, last year was fairly complex. And clearly we could

586
00:30:09,702 --> 00:30:14,982
Speaker 1: see tensions as US had pulled out and we could

587
00:30:15,082 --> 00:30:19,062
Speaker 1: see that there was so much pressure on Brazil to

588
00:30:19,142 --> 00:30:23,222
Speaker 1: pull it off. And on one hand, there was a

589
00:30:23,282 --> 00:30:26,622
Speaker 1: pressure to have a deal on fossil fuel phase out

590
00:30:27,202 --> 00:30:29,962
Speaker 1: or what we call just transitioning away from fossil fuels

591
00:30:30,022 --> 00:30:34,612
Speaker 1: in the UN language. and also make sure that money

592
00:30:34,642 --> 00:30:38,692
Speaker 1: is available for developing countries. But given the kind of

593
00:30:38,792 --> 00:30:43,532
Speaker 1: pressure and the influence of the fossil fuel industry, we

594
00:30:43,572 --> 00:30:46,931
Speaker 1: could not have a deal agreed on transitioning away from

595
00:30:46,952 --> 00:30:52,292
Speaker 1: fossil fuels despite having an agreement in Dubai just three

596
00:30:52,312 --> 00:30:56,242
Speaker 1: years ago. So imagine the pressure that Brazil was under

597
00:30:57,242 --> 00:31:00,582
Speaker 1: And then on one hand, when vulnerable countries were pushing

598
00:31:00,682 --> 00:31:05,462
Speaker 1: Brazil to have a process to work on the transitioning

599
00:31:05,502 --> 00:31:10,002
Speaker 1: away from fossil fuels, the presidency announced a roadmap that

600
00:31:10,422 --> 00:31:13,932
Speaker 1: he would develop on his own than being completely part

601
00:31:13,972 --> 00:31:17,772
Speaker 1: of the process. So, and coming back to elections and

602
00:31:17,792 --> 00:31:22,191
Speaker 1: now with what happened in Brazil, we're all elated. Because

603
00:31:22,712 --> 00:31:28,252
Speaker 1: that's like really giving us a lot more positive outlook

604
00:31:28,332 --> 00:31:32,572
Speaker 1: of things. Not perfect. We know that the pressure continues

605
00:31:32,612 --> 00:31:36,722
Speaker 1: to remain within the country and the political forces are

606
00:31:36,842 --> 00:31:40,402
Speaker 1: going to play their divisive role. Yet it is such

607
00:31:40,862 --> 00:31:44,222
Speaker 1: a good news to start the day and see how

608
00:31:44,322 --> 00:31:47,942
Speaker 1: people came together, especially young people standing on the right

609
00:31:47,982 --> 00:31:48,622
Speaker 1: side of those two.

610
00:31:49,542 --> 00:31:52,882
Speaker 4: Yeah. And so this roadmap for transitioning away from fossil fuels,

611
00:31:52,922 --> 00:31:56,222
Speaker 4: like you said, you know, couldn't get an official agreement

612
00:31:56,312 --> 00:31:59,951
Speaker 4: at COP30. But the Brazilian presidency had been working on

613
00:31:59,992 --> 00:32:03,552
Speaker 4: that really for the last year since then. Will that

614
00:32:03,612 --> 00:32:07,512
Speaker 4: be delivered in Turkey next year? So how is that

615
00:32:07,572 --> 00:32:10,092
Speaker 4: going to play out and how will that run in

616
00:32:10,152 --> 00:32:13,012
Speaker 4: conjunction with like the official UN negotiations?

617
00:32:14,182 --> 00:32:16,921
Speaker 1: Yeah, Turkey this year, in the next couple of days,

618
00:32:16,942 --> 00:32:20,912
Speaker 1: we are going to see the presidency of Brazil, which

619
00:32:20,932 --> 00:32:24,672
Speaker 1: will hand over to Turkey, is going to present this roadmap.

620
00:32:24,692 --> 00:32:27,982
Speaker 1: But before I go there, Nina, it's very important to

621
00:32:28,022 --> 00:32:32,212
Speaker 1: talk about what happened between Belen and now. It's important

622
00:32:32,232 --> 00:32:35,302
Speaker 1: to talk about the Santa Marta Conference and where we

623
00:32:35,342 --> 00:32:40,822
Speaker 1: met and saw that breakthrough. Again, not perfect, but sending

624
00:32:41,002 --> 00:32:43,642
Speaker 1: such a powerful message that we are not going to

625
00:32:43,742 --> 00:32:48,662
Speaker 1: wait for the so-called consensus process at the UN to

626
00:32:48,852 --> 00:32:51,972
Speaker 1: hold this process hostage. That's what we have seen for

627
00:32:52,252 --> 00:32:55,472
Speaker 1: decades and especially in the last couple of years. So

628
00:32:55,552 --> 00:32:59,022
Speaker 1: Santa Marta Conference... In April this year, it was a

629
00:32:59,102 --> 00:33:02,562
Speaker 1: breath of fresh air. It was co-hosted by Colombia and

630
00:33:02,602 --> 00:33:06,642
Speaker 1: the Netherlands and 57 countries attended. And they said, let's

631
00:33:06,682 --> 00:33:10,122
Speaker 1: talk about the how part of just transitioning away from

632
00:33:10,162 --> 00:33:13,512
Speaker 1: fossil fuels than putting the question whether we need to

633
00:33:13,572 --> 00:33:16,212
Speaker 1: or not. So it's very clear that now you have

634
00:33:16,252 --> 00:33:21,532
Speaker 1: a coalition of the doers to continue marching forward and

635
00:33:21,612 --> 00:33:25,592
Speaker 1: developing a plan to transition away from fossil fuels. And

636
00:33:25,712 --> 00:33:28,931
Speaker 1: why it is important to have a global process to

637
00:33:28,992 --> 00:33:32,592
Speaker 1: do it, because countries, and when we say developing countries

638
00:33:32,652 --> 00:33:35,352
Speaker 1: who are stuck with the fossil fuel economy, they can't

639
00:33:35,372 --> 00:33:38,612
Speaker 1: do it on their own. We need international cooperation. We

640
00:33:38,732 --> 00:33:43,102
Speaker 1: need flow of finance and technology transfer without which these

641
00:33:43,132 --> 00:33:46,072
Speaker 1: countries will never be able to do it. Yeah.

642
00:33:46,332 --> 00:33:50,832
Speaker 4: So going into COP31, you know, you've been going to

643
00:33:51,152 --> 00:33:54,671
Speaker 4: the COP conferences for many, many years. What are the

644
00:33:54,842 --> 00:33:58,922
Speaker 4: big ticket items that the climate justice movement, the social

645
00:33:58,962 --> 00:34:02,522
Speaker 4: movement will have their eyes on this year in Turkey?

646
00:34:04,282 --> 00:34:07,532
Speaker 1: Well, definitely a fossil fuel phase out or what we

647
00:34:07,572 --> 00:34:11,832
Speaker 1: call transitioning away is an important agenda. And alongside, there's

648
00:34:11,872 --> 00:34:16,132
Speaker 1: a just transition mechanism being developed, which was agreed in Belem.

649
00:34:16,192 --> 00:34:19,052
Speaker 1: That was a breakthrough, but not the details of it.

650
00:34:19,142 --> 00:34:22,942
Speaker 1: We call it BAM. So, Belem action mechanism, that's what

651
00:34:22,962 --> 00:34:24,381
Speaker 1: we called it last year and now we are saying.

652
00:34:27,681 --> 00:34:31,832
Speaker 1: of how these transitions not limited to fossil fuels but

653
00:34:31,931 --> 00:34:35,031
Speaker 1: also across different sectors how that transition is going to

654
00:34:35,092 --> 00:34:39,741
Speaker 1: happen The other big agenda is finance, something that has

655
00:34:39,822 --> 00:34:43,002
Speaker 1: not been sorted for a very, very long time. See, ultimately,

656
00:34:43,022 --> 00:34:46,281
Speaker 1: when we say we have to deliver climate justice to

657
00:34:46,342 --> 00:34:48,832
Speaker 1: those who are not responsible, what do we actually need?

658
00:34:49,212 --> 00:34:52,812
Speaker 1: It means that developed countries who are historically responsible have

659
00:34:52,852 --> 00:34:56,511
Speaker 1: to move away from fossil fuels first and fastest and

660
00:34:56,612 --> 00:35:00,232
Speaker 1: provide money to developing countries for such a transition, but

661
00:35:00,411 --> 00:35:04,192
Speaker 1: also money for adaptation and dealing with loss and damage.

662
00:35:04,212 --> 00:35:08,602
Speaker 1: So finance happens to be an extremely important issue that

663
00:35:08,622 --> 00:35:12,582
Speaker 1: should advance this year. And of course, there are issues

664
00:35:12,622 --> 00:35:15,841
Speaker 1: of adaptation, which is again linked to finance, and then

665
00:35:15,902 --> 00:35:18,781
Speaker 1: loss and damage. We saw what happened in Nepal, those

666
00:35:18,822 --> 00:35:23,122
Speaker 1: horrific pictures, and we are going to actually put pressure

667
00:35:23,562 --> 00:35:26,182
Speaker 1: on the system to make sure that countries like Nepal

668
00:35:26,221 --> 00:35:29,862
Speaker 1: get support when they are hit by such devastating disasters.

669
00:35:30,502 --> 00:35:32,721
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, let's talk about finance in a bit

670
00:35:32,762 --> 00:35:35,241
Speaker 4: more detail, because I think in the end, it's all

671
00:35:35,302 --> 00:35:38,342
Speaker 4: about the money, right? The cooperation is obviously very important,

672
00:35:38,382 --> 00:35:40,892
Speaker 4: but even that's about the money, right? This could be

673
00:35:40,911 --> 00:35:43,552
Speaker 4: a real criticism or a real weakness of the system

674
00:35:44,172 --> 00:35:47,212
Speaker 4: as a whole, that there's been this division between what

675
00:35:47,272 --> 00:35:51,132
Speaker 4: is mitigation, which is really what the developed polluting.

676
00:35:50,792 --> 00:35:52,292
Speaker 3: Countries want to think about. They want to.

677
00:35:52,312 --> 00:35:57,571
Speaker 4: Pressure the developing countries that have historically contributed least to mitigate,

678
00:35:57,592 --> 00:36:01,252
Speaker 4: to transition away from fossil fuels. Then we've talked about adaptation.

679
00:36:01,272 --> 00:36:04,192
Speaker 4: And then we talk about loss and damage. But obviously,

680
00:36:04,272 --> 00:36:07,442
Speaker 4: these three things are completely related, right? It's been a

681
00:36:07,741 --> 00:36:10,681
Speaker 4: perverse sort of way that we've ended up working on

682
00:36:10,721 --> 00:36:14,361
Speaker 4: these separately. But how will these things be divided up?

683
00:36:14,482 --> 00:36:18,802
Speaker 4: And how will the social movement, the climate justice movement,

684
00:36:18,842 --> 00:36:22,472
Speaker 4: the indigenous peoples, the peasants, how will then, how can

685
00:36:22,512 --> 00:36:26,552
Speaker 4: they pressure negotiators in each of these sort of areas?

686
00:36:27,862 --> 00:36:30,582
Speaker 1: So first of all, thank you, Neena, for mentioning that

687
00:36:30,681 --> 00:36:34,261
Speaker 1: continuum of climate action, as I call it. But, you know, unfortunately,

688
00:36:34,322 --> 00:36:36,942
Speaker 1: we have landed at a place where countries are already

689
00:36:37,022 --> 00:36:40,722
Speaker 1: facing loss and damage. So whatever little resource they have

690
00:36:40,842 --> 00:36:45,332
Speaker 1: is now going in humanitarian response. and recovering from these impacts.

691
00:36:45,732 --> 00:36:47,712
Speaker 1: And if they're left with some money, then they will

692
00:36:47,732 --> 00:36:51,451
Speaker 1: put into adaptation, which means mitigation, which should have been

693
00:36:51,471 --> 00:36:53,612
Speaker 1: the first priority, you know, when we were not facing

694
00:36:53,652 --> 00:36:57,222
Speaker 1: these disasters, is now the third priority. And countries do

695
00:36:57,262 --> 00:37:01,642
Speaker 1: not have finance to actually do mitigation, which means moving

696
00:37:01,701 --> 00:37:06,002
Speaker 1: away from fossil fuels towards renewable energy, deploying more solar

697
00:37:06,142 --> 00:37:11,012
Speaker 1: and wind energy systems, and of course, prepare for climate disasters.

698
00:37:11,642 --> 00:37:15,511
Speaker 1: In that situation, finance becomes even more important. And that's

699
00:37:15,532 --> 00:37:18,812
Speaker 1: what we have been fighting for 30 years. Develop countries

700
00:37:18,852 --> 00:37:22,691
Speaker 1: who have more capability because they burn fossil fuels through

701
00:37:22,712 --> 00:37:26,551
Speaker 1: their industrialization process. They've got more money per capita. They

702
00:37:26,572 --> 00:37:29,272
Speaker 1: are responsible and they have to provide money to countries

703
00:37:29,332 --> 00:37:33,872
Speaker 1: whose respective capacities are lesser, right? How much money we need?

704
00:37:33,911 --> 00:37:37,901
Speaker 1: We need trillions now, trillions annually. And that's the data.

705
00:37:37,942 --> 00:37:40,002
Speaker 1: And it's not me who is saying it's the UN data.

706
00:37:41,072 --> 00:37:44,292
Speaker 1: If you look at the climate action plans coming from

707
00:37:44,332 --> 00:37:47,911
Speaker 1: developing countries, all put together, they are now going to

708
00:37:47,971 --> 00:37:52,922
Speaker 1: cost close to $ 2. 5 to $ 3 trillion annually. And I

709
00:37:52,962 --> 00:37:55,742
Speaker 1: can tell you, these plans do not represent the entire

710
00:37:55,782 --> 00:37:58,622
Speaker 1: scale of work. For example, they don't talk about just transition,

711
00:37:58,922 --> 00:38:03,192
Speaker 1: which means... reskilling of workers and looking at the losses

712
00:38:03,212 --> 00:38:05,592
Speaker 1: that are going to happen if you stop producing and

713
00:38:05,632 --> 00:38:08,472
Speaker 1: exporting fossil fuels. So it is still not the full picture.

714
00:38:08,592 --> 00:38:10,752
Speaker 1: And if you look at adaptation, the data is very

715
00:38:10,892 --> 00:38:16,132
Speaker 1: clear from the UN system, you need more than $ 300

716
00:38:15,112 --> 00:38:16,452
Speaker 1: billion annually.

717
00:38:16,491 --> 00:38:16,932
Speaker 5: A year.

718
00:38:17,032 --> 00:38:22,132
Speaker 1: A year in developing countries alone. And similarly for addressing

719
00:38:22,192 --> 00:38:26,712
Speaker 1: loss and damages, close to $ 400 billion annually in developing

720
00:38:26,752 --> 00:38:30,272
Speaker 1: countries alone. So if you everything together, you need $ 4

721
00:38:30,181 --> 00:38:33,801
Speaker 1: to $ 5 trillion annually. And how much is available? And

722
00:38:33,902 --> 00:38:37,182
Speaker 1: how much developed countries are claiming that they have provided?

723
00:38:37,181 --> 00:38:40,701
Speaker 1: $ 100 billion. And that too, an important issue that we

724
00:38:40,721 --> 00:38:44,852
Speaker 1: should talk about, majority of it is loan, which means

725
00:38:44,991 --> 00:38:49,472
Speaker 1: we are actually exacerbating the debt crisis that developing countries

726
00:38:49,532 --> 00:38:52,611
Speaker 1: are already facing. So this is a real challenge that

727
00:38:52,652 --> 00:38:53,792
Speaker 1: we are facing at this moment.

728
00:38:54,522 --> 00:38:56,802
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I mean, you raise a few really important

729
00:38:56,842 --> 00:38:59,381
Speaker 4: points there. First, you know, it drives me mad when

730
00:38:59,462 --> 00:39:02,861
Speaker 4: I hear people in, whether it's negotiators or like, you know,

731
00:39:02,882 --> 00:39:06,522
Speaker 4: diplomats in developed countries talking about, well, we're all in

732
00:39:06,542 --> 00:39:07,261
Speaker 4: this together.

733
00:39:07,282 --> 00:39:10,312
Speaker 3: It's like, no, we're not, you know, we're not, you know, we.

734
00:39:10,232 --> 00:39:13,551
Speaker 4: Didn't all contribute to the climate crisis in the same way.

735
00:39:13,892 --> 00:39:18,012
Speaker 4: And we are not all responsible. Accountability and responsibility is different.

736
00:39:18,052 --> 00:39:20,672
Speaker 4: And I think, you know, when we talk about climate finance,

737
00:39:21,192 --> 00:39:24,712
Speaker 4: We're not talking about aid. We're not talking about developed

738
00:39:24,752 --> 00:39:28,241
Speaker 4: countries helping or like, you know, being kind enough to

739
00:39:28,282 --> 00:39:33,022
Speaker 4: give money. They are legally responsible under international law, under

740
00:39:33,042 --> 00:39:34,302
Speaker 4: the treaties that they've signed.

741
00:39:34,362 --> 00:39:34,682
Speaker 1: Right.

742
00:39:35,411 --> 00:39:38,452
Speaker 4: And, you know, as the ICJ ruled last year, whether

743
00:39:38,491 --> 00:39:40,951
Speaker 4: the U.S. is a signatory of the Paris Agreement or not.

744
00:39:41,172 --> 00:39:43,971
Speaker 4: it doesn't take away its accountability.

745
00:39:43,132 --> 00:39:47,111
Speaker 1: It's about compensation and reparations that's what the national court

746
00:39:47,142 --> 00:39:51,302
Speaker 1: of justice has very clearly outlined and and they can't

747
00:39:51,362 --> 00:39:55,681
Speaker 1: just you know uh ignore that fact that you are

748
00:39:55,802 --> 00:39:59,542
Speaker 1: not doing a favor and but the reality uh nina

749
00:39:59,582 --> 00:40:03,362
Speaker 1: is they're using this aid that's what they call it

750
00:40:03,721 --> 00:40:07,522
Speaker 1: to actually advance their trade yeah you know the reality

751
00:40:07,542 --> 00:40:09,082
Speaker 1: is in this i'm not making it up if you

752
00:40:09,102 --> 00:40:12,841
Speaker 1: look at most of the aid departments have moved under

753
00:40:12,902 --> 00:40:16,161
Speaker 1: trade so they're not even hiding this fact it's so

754
00:40:16,221 --> 00:40:18,162
Speaker 1: blatant it's so blatant.

755
00:40:17,842 --> 00:40:21,701
Speaker 4: Yeah So we were in Shamal Sheikh together. That was COP27,

756
00:40:22,142 --> 00:40:25,661
Speaker 4: I think, right? So that's four years ago. And that

757
00:40:25,721 --> 00:40:30,542
Speaker 4: took place just weeks after the devastating floods in Pakistan, right?

758
00:40:30,902 --> 00:40:34,332
Speaker 4: And it was like this sort of coalescence of bad luck,

759
00:40:34,532 --> 00:40:37,591
Speaker 4: good luck. I don't know. At that summit, Pakistan had

760
00:40:37,632 --> 00:40:41,712
Speaker 4: the presidency of the G77 and plus China. And that

761
00:40:41,752 --> 00:40:46,672
Speaker 4: was when after decades of campaigning by small island nations

762
00:40:46,752 --> 00:40:49,932
Speaker 4: and by developing countries and the social movement, climate justice movement,

763
00:40:50,532 --> 00:40:52,952
Speaker 4: there was an agreement to create the loss and damage fund.

764
00:40:53,212 --> 00:40:53,431
Speaker 1: Right.

765
00:40:53,471 --> 00:40:55,971
Speaker 4: So that was a huge victory. That's sort of, you know,

766
00:40:55,991 --> 00:40:58,552
Speaker 4: that's been in process. So that's been four years now

767
00:40:58,592 --> 00:41:00,632
Speaker 4: that we've had an agreement to create this loss and

768
00:41:00,652 --> 00:41:03,572
Speaker 4: damage fund. Can you tell us a bit about or

769
00:41:03,632 --> 00:41:04,792
Speaker 4: give us an update on where.

770
00:41:04,632 --> 00:41:08,152
Speaker 3: We are with that fund and how that, you.

771
00:41:10,681 --> 00:41:16,462
Speaker 4: Around loss and damage will be present or absent from

772
00:41:16,582 --> 00:41:17,961
Speaker 4: COP31 agenda?

773
00:41:19,582 --> 00:41:23,721
Speaker 1: So you're right, Neena. It took 30 years to get

774
00:41:23,942 --> 00:41:27,862
Speaker 1: an agreement to establish the fund and we all celebrated.

775
00:41:28,522 --> 00:41:31,592
Speaker 1: And I have been advocating for it for years. about

776
00:41:31,592 --> 00:41:38,451
Speaker 1: 17 years, and demanding that it should be seen as

777
00:41:38,471 --> 00:41:41,552
Speaker 1: a measure to repair harm. And again, as a matter

778
00:41:41,572 --> 00:41:45,192
Speaker 1: of compensation and reparations. Of course, we don't find that

779
00:41:45,232 --> 00:41:50,502
Speaker 1: language because of the way UN system works. However, this

780
00:41:50,622 --> 00:41:54,522
Speaker 1: fund is all about supporting communities and countries who are

781
00:41:54,602 --> 00:41:59,842
Speaker 1: already facing climate impacts. And after that decision in Sharm el-Sheikh,

782
00:42:00,471 --> 00:42:03,761
Speaker 1: The following year in Dubai, it was operationalized and pledges

783
00:42:03,782 --> 00:42:06,782
Speaker 1: were made. And if you look, and since then, several

784
00:42:06,842 --> 00:42:09,582
Speaker 1: board meetings have happened. The ninth one was in July

785
00:42:09,642 --> 00:42:15,142
Speaker 1: this year. And we have managed to get pledges of

786
00:42:15,411 --> 00:42:21,272
Speaker 1: around $ 822 million. And close to half of the amount

787
00:42:21,332 --> 00:42:26,842
Speaker 1: has been received in the bank. Now, there are several challenges.

788
00:42:27,402 --> 00:42:31,161
Speaker 1: I want to remind your listeners the figure that we

789
00:42:31,201 --> 00:42:36,991
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier. We need $ 400 billion annually, and the fund

790
00:42:37,012 --> 00:42:41,452
Speaker 1: doesn't even have a billion dollars. Nepal tragedy. The cost

791
00:42:41,512 --> 00:42:44,572
Speaker 1: of recovery is going to be close to $ 5 billion.

792
00:42:45,212 --> 00:42:49,401
Speaker 1: Just a few days ago, the board has now set

793
00:42:49,422 --> 00:42:53,842
Speaker 1: aside $ 21. 6 million for Nepal as part of the urgent request.

794
00:42:55,392 --> 00:42:58,752
Speaker 1: That is less than half a percent of what Nepal

795
00:42:58,772 --> 00:43:02,942
Speaker 1: needs for recovery and rehabilitation. So look at the scale

796
00:43:03,302 --> 00:43:06,562
Speaker 1: of gap that exists at this moment. Yes, we have

797
00:43:06,602 --> 00:43:09,301
Speaker 1: got a fund. It's a victory. It's the right thing

798
00:43:09,342 --> 00:43:11,942
Speaker 1: to do to have a fund which supports countries and

799
00:43:12,002 --> 00:43:16,122
Speaker 1: communities to recover and to rebuild. But it's not enough.

800
00:43:16,221 --> 00:43:18,661
Speaker 1: And that's why as Fill the Fund campaign, we are

801
00:43:18,701 --> 00:43:22,142
Speaker 1: putting a lot of pressure on the fund to recover.

802
00:43:22,911 --> 00:43:25,821
Speaker 1: work on the scale and the speed. It took several

803
00:43:25,911 --> 00:43:29,142
Speaker 1: months to even consider Nepal's request because there is no

804
00:43:29,161 --> 00:43:33,342
Speaker 1: rapid response window. And of course, access, communities can't access

805
00:43:33,382 --> 00:43:34,241
Speaker 1: this fund right now.

806
00:43:35,122 --> 00:43:38,172
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, so four years ago in Shamushik, I

807
00:43:38,212 --> 00:43:41,232
Speaker 4: remember writing a story, stories about the, you know, the

808
00:43:41,252 --> 00:43:42,732
Speaker 4: creation of a loss and damage fund.

809
00:43:43,172 --> 00:43:44,812
Speaker 3: And at COP27, I think by the end of.

810
00:43:47,882 --> 00:43:52,221
Speaker 4: You know, that 10-day summit, about $ 600, $ 650 million had

811
00:43:52,282 --> 00:43:55,402
Speaker 4: been pledged. How is it possible that the fund has

812
00:43:55,661 --> 00:44:01,252
Speaker 4: only reached $ 800 million in four years? And who hasn't

813
00:44:01,272 --> 00:44:04,572
Speaker 4: paid up? I mean, who's paid up? Let's name and shame.

814
00:44:04,632 --> 00:44:07,632
Speaker 4: I mean, the idea that we're still at $ 800 million,

815
00:44:07,652 --> 00:44:09,812
Speaker 4: I mean, it feels like a bit of a joke,

816
00:44:09,852 --> 00:44:11,792
Speaker 4: like a really sick joke, you know, that that's where

817
00:44:11,832 --> 00:44:12,182
Speaker 4: we're at.

818
00:44:14,201 --> 00:44:17,662
Speaker 1: Yeah, so first of all, the biggest joke is the U.S.

819
00:44:18,062 --> 00:44:20,922
Speaker 1: And by the time this was agreed, I'm talking about

820
00:44:20,962 --> 00:44:24,022
Speaker 1: the Dubai COP and the operationalization was happening, it was

821
00:44:24,122 --> 00:44:26,721
Speaker 1: clear that the Trump administration is going to take over

822
00:44:26,991 --> 00:44:30,411
Speaker 1: next year. And then the Biden administration said, okay, they're

823
00:44:30,431 --> 00:44:32,591
Speaker 1: going to make a contribution. And imagine how much they

824
00:44:32,612 --> 00:44:36,772
Speaker 1: contributed or committed at that moment, $ 17. 5 million. You know, like,

825
00:44:39,902 --> 00:44:44,572
Speaker 1: And compared to UAE, which committed $ 100 million, France committed

826
00:44:44,572 --> 00:44:49,292
Speaker 1: 100 million euros, and European Union said 100 million euros.

827
00:44:50,012 --> 00:44:55,882
Speaker 1: And against that, you find U.S. saying $ 17. 5 million. I

828
00:44:55,922 --> 00:44:59,792
Speaker 1: don't know how that calculation came about of 17.5 million.

829
00:45:00,292 --> 00:45:04,111
Speaker 1: So imagine all these big countries have not really put

830
00:45:04,152 --> 00:45:06,252
Speaker 1: their fair share. And many of the countries, you know,

831
00:45:06,272 --> 00:45:08,992
Speaker 1: for example, Luxembourg has not paid in yet. Italy has

832
00:45:09,052 --> 00:45:12,022
Speaker 1: not paid in yet. We've got European Union, which has

833
00:45:12,082 --> 00:45:14,462
Speaker 1: provided some money, but it's now going to be staggered

834
00:45:14,482 --> 00:45:18,082
Speaker 1: over the next few years, which is not fair at all.

835
00:45:18,971 --> 00:45:23,122
Speaker 1: And France, again, they're not, whatever they pledged, they're not

836
00:45:23,221 --> 00:45:27,442
Speaker 1: paying it in full in one disbursement. They're going to

837
00:45:27,522 --> 00:45:30,341
Speaker 1: stagger it. Basically, what they want to do, and to

838
00:45:30,422 --> 00:45:33,392
Speaker 1: respond to your question, how the pledges have not grown,

839
00:45:33,451 --> 00:45:37,132
Speaker 1: because They don't want this fund to grow to a

840
00:45:37,252 --> 00:45:42,022
Speaker 1: point where it actually meets the needs of communities and countries.

841
00:45:42,382 --> 00:45:45,862
Speaker 1: They created or they agreed to create this fund because

842
00:45:45,892 --> 00:45:49,892
Speaker 1: of the pressure from vulnerable countries and civil society. They're

843
00:45:49,931 --> 00:45:53,732
Speaker 1: playing the same game of aid and trade so that

844
00:45:53,772 --> 00:45:56,821
Speaker 1: they can continue to control the money that goes and

845
00:45:56,902 --> 00:45:59,922
Speaker 1: always use it as a leverage. Now, that's the intention.

846
00:46:00,262 --> 00:46:03,342
Speaker 1: And imagine, four years have passed, we have not transferred

847
00:46:03,402 --> 00:46:06,162
Speaker 1: a single penny yet. That's the reality.

848
00:46:06,592 --> 00:46:11,741
Speaker 4: I mean, it's the same old tactics, right? Deny, block, delay, right?

849
00:46:11,842 --> 00:46:14,182
Speaker 4: You're a lot less cynical than I am, you know,

850
00:46:14,241 --> 00:46:16,002
Speaker 4: but I'm just like, what's even.

851
00:46:16,201 --> 00:46:17,002
Speaker 3: I mean, not that.

852
00:46:17,322 --> 00:46:19,892
Speaker 4: Obviously, it's hugely important and the pressure has to keep

853
00:46:19,931 --> 00:46:20,392
Speaker 4: being there.

854
00:46:20,431 --> 00:46:22,252
Speaker 3: But like you said, four years.

855
00:46:23,752 --> 00:46:24,812
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, we could.

856
00:46:24,692 --> 00:46:29,672
Speaker 4: Probably both name 25 major climate disasters have happened since

857
00:46:29,712 --> 00:46:32,432
Speaker 4: then and not a single penny, a single cent has

858
00:46:32,471 --> 00:46:34,062
Speaker 4: been transferred to a community.

859
00:46:34,082 --> 00:46:36,302
Speaker 3: I mean, it's absolutely criminal.

860
00:46:36,422 --> 00:46:38,462
Speaker 4: It's like really shocking, really shocking.

861
00:46:38,482 --> 00:46:42,382
Speaker 1: Absolutely. And I'll tell you the politics of it. The

862
00:46:42,402 --> 00:46:47,591
Speaker 1: politics is if this fund starts dispersing money quickly, then

863
00:46:47,661 --> 00:46:51,422
Speaker 1: it's going to be empty and developed countries will face

864
00:46:51,522 --> 00:46:53,862
Speaker 1: pressure to fill it again. And they don't want to

865
00:46:53,882 --> 00:46:56,402
Speaker 1: fill the fund. That's exactly the point. That's why they

866
00:46:56,442 --> 00:46:59,062
Speaker 1: want to delay, as you rightly said, so that they

867
00:46:59,082 --> 00:47:00,642
Speaker 1: can tell the world, yes, there is a fund, but

868
00:47:00,661 --> 00:47:03,201
Speaker 1: the reality is it's not responding to the needs of people.

869
00:47:03,701 --> 00:47:06,352
Speaker 4: No, yeah, the cynical part of me is that it's

870
00:47:06,411 --> 00:47:08,151
Speaker 4: a way to say, look, we did it. We did

871
00:47:08,172 --> 00:47:11,252
Speaker 4: what you wanted without actually doing anything. And so I'm

872
00:47:11,272 --> 00:47:16,332
Speaker 4: not sure which is worse, empty Could you explain a

873
00:47:16,372 --> 00:47:20,292
Speaker 4: little bit about how the role of the social movement,

874
00:47:20,312 --> 00:47:24,592
Speaker 4: the climate justice movement in the UN climate talks in Egypt,

875
00:47:24,832 --> 00:47:28,872
Speaker 4: in Dubai, in Baku, you know, in Azerbaijan, these are

876
00:47:28,911 --> 00:47:35,411
Speaker 4: countries that have repressive authoritarian governments, right? And actually, Glasgow,

877
00:47:35,451 --> 00:47:37,612
Speaker 4: even before that, which when we were coming out of

878
00:47:37,652 --> 00:47:40,321
Speaker 4: the worst part of the pandemic, you know, access to

879
00:47:40,882 --> 00:47:45,292
Speaker 4: for frontline communities, you know, for activists, for advocates, for

880
00:47:45,332 --> 00:47:48,912
Speaker 4: indigenous communities has really been limited. You know, I remember

881
00:47:48,951 --> 00:47:51,602
Speaker 4: in Egypt, we weren't allowed to talk about human rights.

882
00:47:51,721 --> 00:47:53,562
Speaker 4: And so how, tell me, first of all, tell me

883
00:47:53,602 --> 00:47:58,322
Speaker 4: the importance of of civil society groups, of frontline communities

884
00:47:58,572 --> 00:48:02,681
Speaker 4: in this process, how can they, how do they impact

885
00:48:02,721 --> 00:48:05,502
Speaker 4: what's going on in the corridors of power, you know,

886
00:48:05,542 --> 00:48:08,422
Speaker 4: which we know anyone that's been followed COP at all,

887
00:48:08,862 --> 00:48:12,142
Speaker 4: we know that there is a huge amount of access

888
00:48:12,161 --> 00:48:16,111
Speaker 4: to fossil fuel companies, big ad, big tech, the banks,

889
00:48:16,201 --> 00:48:18,792
Speaker 4: all of the enablers of the climate crisis, the ones

890
00:48:18,832 --> 00:48:24,212
Speaker 4: that are very invested in delaying action. How important is

891
00:48:24,252 --> 00:48:27,431
Speaker 4: the presence of the social movement in the COP environment

892
00:48:27,692 --> 00:48:30,812
Speaker 4: when the negotiations are mostly going on behind closed doors?

893
00:48:33,652 --> 00:48:39,551
Speaker 1: Yeah, very important question. And I'm sure your listeners would

894
00:48:39,632 --> 00:48:42,691
Speaker 1: like to know because when they see, oh, so many

895
00:48:42,732 --> 00:48:46,562
Speaker 1: civil society organizations fly every year to these international conferences,

896
00:48:46,622 --> 00:48:49,301
Speaker 1: what the heck do they do? Do they go for

897
00:48:49,342 --> 00:48:55,762
Speaker 1: a junket? It's like a pleasure trip. Absolutely not. Because

898
00:48:56,181 --> 00:48:59,472
Speaker 1: whatever we see in these climate talks today, I would

899
00:48:59,532 --> 00:49:04,172
Speaker 1: say it's largely because of the climate and social justice movements.

900
00:49:04,332 --> 00:49:08,252
Speaker 1: I would call them a moral conscience of the climate talks.

901
00:49:09,092 --> 00:49:13,681
Speaker 1: And if you remove climate and social justice groups from

902
00:49:13,701 --> 00:49:18,082
Speaker 1: these climate talks, you would see them turning into pure

903
00:49:18,342 --> 00:49:23,241
Speaker 1: trade talks. And that's why we have not seen much

904
00:49:23,322 --> 00:49:28,531
Speaker 1: progress because large countries are trying to make money off

905
00:49:28,572 --> 00:49:33,542
Speaker 1: this crisis, whereas climate justice groups actually show them the mirror,

906
00:49:33,642 --> 00:49:37,602
Speaker 1: call them out, call their bluff that, you know, they say, oh,

907
00:49:37,642 --> 00:49:40,611
Speaker 1: they are really concerned about climate and environment. They're actually not.

908
00:49:40,642 --> 00:49:45,332
Speaker 1: So civil society, climate justice movements play a huge role

909
00:49:45,392 --> 00:49:47,592
Speaker 1: in this process. And let me explain. One, as a

910
00:49:47,612 --> 00:49:51,261
Speaker 1: pressure group. telling the world what's going on, how much

911
00:49:51,322 --> 00:49:54,872
Speaker 1: the gap is, what these governments are doing and not

912
00:49:54,931 --> 00:49:58,451
Speaker 1: doing and calling them out. That's one big part of

913
00:49:58,491 --> 00:49:59,931
Speaker 1: the work that we do. And we do it in

914
00:49:59,991 --> 00:50:04,381
Speaker 1: different ways. You know, speaking to media friends like you,

915
00:50:04,982 --> 00:50:08,082
Speaker 1: but also doing a lot of campaigning, you know, digital,

916
00:50:08,322 --> 00:50:12,402
Speaker 1: on ground, mobilization in our own countries. We do rallies

917
00:50:12,502 --> 00:50:17,062
Speaker 1: and marches in countries and at the sub-national level. And

918
00:50:17,102 --> 00:50:20,622
Speaker 1: of course, during COP, to bring visibility to the issues.

919
00:50:21,931 --> 00:50:24,252
Speaker 1: The other part that we play a very important role,

920
00:50:24,292 --> 00:50:27,411
Speaker 1: which is the whole technical piece. You know, we go

921
00:50:27,451 --> 00:50:31,032
Speaker 1: there with a lot of preparedness in terms of bringing

922
00:50:31,092 --> 00:50:34,631
Speaker 1: out documents, doing research on telling, for example, the role

923
00:50:34,692 --> 00:50:37,262
Speaker 1: of fossil fuel industry, how much money they are making,

924
00:50:37,701 --> 00:50:42,362
Speaker 1: how many fossil fuel lobbies are moving around these conference halls,

925
00:50:43,002 --> 00:50:45,942
Speaker 1: and what kind of impact people are facing, where the

926
00:50:45,962 --> 00:50:50,661
Speaker 1: money is going. All those things are brought by civil society,

927
00:50:50,782 --> 00:50:57,522
Speaker 1: by climate movements, in collaboration with the various think tanks.

928
00:50:57,842 --> 00:50:59,781
Speaker 1: So we have a very important role to play. And

929
00:50:59,822 --> 00:51:03,201
Speaker 1: another aspect, developing countries have very little capacity when it

930
00:51:03,262 --> 00:51:06,862
Speaker 1: comes to negotiations. They come with very small delegations normally.

931
00:51:07,282 --> 00:51:10,721
Speaker 1: That's where we provide a backup. We support them with information,

932
00:51:11,302 --> 00:51:13,502
Speaker 1: with strategies so that they can negotiate.

933
00:51:14,462 --> 00:51:17,911
Speaker 4: You know, as we go into Turkey... Obviously, a lot

934
00:51:17,951 --> 00:51:20,171
Speaker 4: of the work and a lot of the discussions about

935
00:51:20,252 --> 00:51:24,152
Speaker 4: what's going to be on the agenda have already happened, right,

936
00:51:24,252 --> 00:51:27,372
Speaker 4: in these preceding months. Have there been victories and have

937
00:51:27,411 --> 00:51:30,692
Speaker 4: there been losses already for the climate justice movement before

938
00:51:30,752 --> 00:51:33,071
Speaker 4: we even get there, you know, in terms of what's

939
00:51:33,132 --> 00:51:34,632
Speaker 4: going to be on the agenda and what's not going

940
00:51:34,652 --> 00:51:35,572
Speaker 4: to be on the agenda?

941
00:51:37,971 --> 00:51:40,142
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I want to take you back to the

942
00:51:40,161 --> 00:51:42,622
Speaker 1: Santa Marta process. And also, we should not look at

943
00:51:43,022 --> 00:51:46,961
Speaker 1: COP as the only place to deliver. COP is like

944
00:51:47,741 --> 00:51:52,451
Speaker 1: cog in the wheel of now the evolving global climate governance.

945
00:51:53,192 --> 00:51:56,812
Speaker 1: We have relied too much on the COP process. And

946
00:51:56,852 --> 00:51:59,632
Speaker 1: that's why if you look at our press releases over

947
00:51:59,672 --> 00:52:02,171
Speaker 1: the last few years, we are essentially saying the same thing.

948
00:52:02,512 --> 00:52:05,111
Speaker 1: I think we need to really change our strategy to

949
00:52:05,172 --> 00:52:09,982
Speaker 1: see what exactly this COP process, a particular COP can advance.

950
00:52:10,822 --> 00:52:13,792
Speaker 1: And how do we look at that in that trajectory

951
00:52:15,502 --> 00:52:19,252
Speaker 1: of development? And that's where... Santa Marta process was important.

952
00:52:19,411 --> 00:52:21,651
Speaker 1: That's where we were able to get about 60 countries

953
00:52:21,672 --> 00:52:27,132
Speaker 1: who were representing more than 20% of GDP and brought

954
00:52:27,172 --> 00:52:29,471
Speaker 1: that kind of power to the negotiations. And that's why,

955
00:52:29,951 --> 00:52:33,072
Speaker 1: as the Fossil Fuel Treaty Initiative, we look at COP

956
00:52:33,172 --> 00:52:35,752
Speaker 1: where some progress is going to happen, but not enough.

957
00:52:36,112 --> 00:52:38,952
Speaker 1: So COP is part of that journey when it comes

958
00:52:38,991 --> 00:52:42,262
Speaker 1: to the fossil fuel phase-out and the just transition process.

959
00:52:42,701 --> 00:52:44,882
Speaker 1: But then there are elements that are going to happen

960
00:52:45,062 --> 00:52:48,062
Speaker 1: at the COP. I talked about finance. which is going

961
00:52:48,122 --> 00:52:52,882
Speaker 1: to be an extremely important While there was a decision

962
00:52:52,902 --> 00:52:58,011
Speaker 1: to provide $ 1. 3 trillion and at least $ 300 billion as

963
00:52:58,212 --> 00:53:00,652
Speaker 1: part of public finance, we need to now look at

964
00:53:00,692 --> 00:53:03,011
Speaker 1: the delivery plan of that. Let's also talk about the

965
00:53:03,052 --> 00:53:05,451
Speaker 1: number of reports that have come up. Whether we talk

966
00:53:05,491 --> 00:53:08,952
Speaker 1: about overshoot, whether we talk about emission gap report. Using

967
00:53:09,072 --> 00:53:12,571
Speaker 1: all that to put pressure for more ambition. I talked

968
00:53:12,612 --> 00:53:15,892
Speaker 1: about adaptation. This is on the agenda for this COP,

969
00:53:16,172 --> 00:53:19,212
Speaker 1: but more importantly for the next COP in India. Ethiopia.

970
00:53:19,592 --> 00:53:22,652
Speaker 1: So how do we make sure that the adaptation finance

971
00:53:22,732 --> 00:53:26,252
Speaker 1: gap that exists can also be bridged? And then there

972
00:53:26,292 --> 00:53:28,651
Speaker 1: is also a body of work around the adaptation part.

973
00:53:29,092 --> 00:53:30,972
Speaker 1: We need to look at the full picture. And again,

974
00:53:30,991 --> 00:53:33,722
Speaker 1: Nepal is a case in point that we are failing

975
00:53:34,282 --> 00:53:37,361
Speaker 1: on fossil fuel phase out. That's why glaciers melted. We're

976
00:53:37,402 --> 00:53:40,602
Speaker 1: failing on adaptation. We knew those risks exist. We could

977
00:53:40,762 --> 00:53:45,341
Speaker 1: never mitigate or reduce those risks. And of course, which

978
00:53:45,362 --> 00:53:49,812
Speaker 1: we call adaptation. That's right. And now to respond to

979
00:53:50,352 --> 00:53:53,872
Speaker 1: those disasters which happened because of lack of adaptation. So

980
00:53:54,132 --> 00:53:56,792
Speaker 1: we are going to push Nepal case. And then I

981
00:53:56,812 --> 00:53:59,571
Speaker 1: should also mention just transition for the BAM. There's going

982
00:53:59,592 --> 00:54:02,902
Speaker 1: to be a lot of pressure from Climate Action Network

983
00:54:03,022 --> 00:54:05,681
Speaker 1: and our allies to make sure that there is a

984
00:54:05,721 --> 00:54:10,042
Speaker 1: mechanism that helps countries transition away from fossil fuels and

985
00:54:10,322 --> 00:54:12,082
Speaker 1: even other sectors like agriculture and.

986
00:54:13,282 --> 00:54:16,022
Speaker 4: You know, there's so much going on in the world, right?

987
00:54:16,062 --> 00:54:19,942
Speaker 4: We're seeing multiple crises like affecting people at all different

988
00:54:19,962 --> 00:54:25,902
Speaker 4: levels across Europe, across Asia. We're seeing these mass protests

989
00:54:25,922 --> 00:54:32,332
Speaker 4: that are focused on the cost of living, on corruption. Spain, Italy, France,

990
00:54:32,971 --> 00:54:36,172
Speaker 4: Indonesia and India, right? I think it'd be really good

991
00:54:36,192 --> 00:54:38,632
Speaker 4: just to end on talking about, you know, the cockroach

992
00:54:38,672 --> 00:54:42,372
Speaker 4: movement for our listeners that don't know. is an incredible,

993
00:54:42,592 --> 00:54:48,011
Speaker 4: huge social movement happening in India named Cockroach after the

994
00:54:48,342 --> 00:54:53,592
Speaker 4: delightful chief a Supreme Court justice referred to young people

995
00:54:53,632 --> 00:54:57,172
Speaker 4: who didn't have work as cockroaches. And there's been this

996
00:54:57,252 --> 00:55:01,162
Speaker 4: huge uprising and, you know, protests happening for months now.

997
00:55:01,802 --> 00:55:06,761
Speaker 4: Can you help us understand the connection between these social uprisings,

998
00:55:06,782 --> 00:55:09,222
Speaker 4: these social movements, which a lot of them are focused

999
00:55:09,342 --> 00:55:12,812
Speaker 4: on corruption, on violence, you know, the sort of erosion

1000
00:55:12,852 --> 00:55:16,471
Speaker 4: of democracies on the cost of living and what's going

1001
00:55:16,491 --> 00:55:19,152
Speaker 4: to happen at COP on climate justice and the failure

1002
00:55:19,172 --> 00:55:20,092
Speaker 4: to take climate action.

1003
00:55:20,392 --> 00:55:21,772
Speaker 3: How are these things connected?

1004
00:55:24,012 --> 00:55:27,841
Speaker 1: Well, absolutely. You know, when we look at the uprising,

1005
00:55:28,262 --> 00:55:30,862
Speaker 1: especially led by Gen Z, which is linked to some

1006
00:55:30,882 --> 00:55:34,382
Speaker 1: of these issues of cost of living, corruption, climate disasters,

1007
00:55:34,422 --> 00:55:38,852
Speaker 1: let's also talk about artificial intelligence taking away their jobs, right?

1008
00:55:38,872 --> 00:55:40,152
Speaker 3: Data centers, yeah.

1009
00:55:40,392 --> 00:55:45,292
Speaker 1: Yeah. So, these are the real issues, real same old

1010
00:55:45,392 --> 00:55:50,622
Speaker 1: development issues of right to food, right to education, right

1011
00:55:50,681 --> 00:55:53,822
Speaker 1: to health, right to jobs. When they see their rights

1012
00:55:53,922 --> 00:55:57,682
Speaker 1: being eroded, then that's when they realize that the system

1013
00:55:57,721 --> 00:56:00,721
Speaker 1: has to be fixed. And I would say that's why

1014
00:56:00,762 --> 00:56:04,142
Speaker 1: we as climate and social movement call for system change,

1015
00:56:04,422 --> 00:56:07,912
Speaker 1: because we see the inequality that has been only increasing.

1016
00:56:08,302 --> 00:56:13,252
Speaker 1: We used to say 1% versus 99%. Now it is 99.99%

1017
00:56:13,252 --> 00:56:17,571
Speaker 1: versus 0.1%. That's the kind of concentration of wealth that

1018
00:56:17,612 --> 00:56:20,142
Speaker 1: has happened. And that's why we see young people rising.

1019
00:56:20,201 --> 00:56:23,062
Speaker 1: And that's exactly what we saw, the Gen Z movement

1020
00:56:23,422 --> 00:56:28,861
Speaker 1: in India. which has energized many other movements and challenging

1021
00:56:29,422 --> 00:56:34,542
Speaker 1: the powers that are there who have only been exacerbating

1022
00:56:34,622 --> 00:56:37,392
Speaker 1: this inequality. And that's why it is important. You know,

1023
00:56:37,431 --> 00:56:39,892
Speaker 1: even the wins that we had in Brazil and Serbia

1024
00:56:40,092 --> 00:56:43,031
Speaker 1: were led by Gen Z, led by Yankee. And it's

1025
00:56:43,132 --> 00:56:47,092
Speaker 1: so important that they are turning their frustrations into a

1026
00:56:48,232 --> 00:56:51,752
Speaker 1: political force to bring about that change. That's exactly what

1027
00:56:51,812 --> 00:56:55,241
Speaker 1: is required. Because unless we talk about system change, we

1028
00:56:55,282 --> 00:56:59,182
Speaker 1: will not be able to deal with the old problems

1029
00:56:59,241 --> 00:57:04,082
Speaker 1: of corruption and money concentration. But now more, you know,

1030
00:57:04,122 --> 00:57:07,502
Speaker 1: dealing with artificial intelligence and many of those technologies and

1031
00:57:07,562 --> 00:57:10,892
Speaker 1: concentration of wealth, which is going to affect them even

1032
00:57:10,931 --> 00:57:11,412
Speaker 1: more in future.

1033
00:57:11,931 --> 00:57:14,192
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, what young people

1034
00:57:14,232 --> 00:57:16,712
Speaker 4: are calling out and what, you know, the social movements

1035
00:57:16,752 --> 00:57:18,852
Speaker 4: and climate justice movements have been calling out is that,

1036
00:57:19,702 --> 00:57:22,202
Speaker 4: you know, governments tell us there's no money for climate action.

1037
00:57:22,222 --> 00:57:24,862
Speaker 4: There's no money for mitigation. There's no money for adaptation.

1038
00:57:24,882 --> 00:57:27,242
Speaker 4: There's no money for loss and damage. Yet there is

1039
00:57:27,462 --> 00:57:30,762
Speaker 4: a huge amount of money that's being stolen, right, through corruption.

1040
00:57:30,782 --> 00:57:34,782
Speaker 4: There's a huge amount of money for subsidies, for big tech,

1041
00:57:34,802 --> 00:57:36,542
Speaker 4: for big ag, for, you.

1042
00:57:36,492 --> 00:57:37,832
Speaker 3: Know, fossil fuel companies.

1043
00:57:38,592 --> 00:57:42,572
Speaker 4: There's unlimited amounts of money to fight illegal wars against

1044
00:57:42,612 --> 00:57:46,072
Speaker 4: Palestine and Ukraine. So, you know, the idea that there's

1045
00:57:46,112 --> 00:57:49,312
Speaker 4: no money is clearly bullshit, right? And young people are

1046
00:57:49,352 --> 00:57:51,592
Speaker 4: seeing it and they're seeing it every day in their lives.

1047
00:57:51,852 --> 00:57:54,682
Speaker 4: There's no money for health. There's no money for education, right?

1048
00:57:54,722 --> 00:57:57,401
Speaker 4: But there is, like you're saying, this concentration of wealth

1049
00:57:57,462 --> 00:58:00,502
Speaker 4: and power and people have had enough, right? And I

1050
00:58:00,522 --> 00:58:03,062
Speaker 4: think it's really important for us in the climate justice

1051
00:58:03,082 --> 00:58:07,892
Speaker 4: space to be connecting those dots, right? The lack of

1052
00:58:08,872 --> 00:58:13,552
Speaker 4: funding for health and education in France is absolutely related

1053
00:58:13,942 --> 00:58:17,622
Speaker 4: to the funding of wars and the subsidies of fossil

1054
00:58:17,642 --> 00:58:20,312
Speaker 4: fuels and big tech and the lack of climate action.

1055
00:58:22,022 --> 00:58:24,562
Speaker 1: And all of us are fighting against the same system.

1056
00:58:24,602 --> 00:58:27,362
Speaker 1: So the Gen Z fight is the same fight. We

1057
00:58:27,482 --> 00:58:30,412
Speaker 1: share that fight and sentiment because that's what we are

1058
00:58:30,472 --> 00:58:35,072
Speaker 1: fighting against. So all these are manifestations of the same

1059
00:58:35,392 --> 00:58:39,822
Speaker 1: systemic crisis that we have been facing for decades now.

1060
00:58:40,112 --> 00:58:43,102
Speaker 1: And it's important to come together and see them as

1061
00:58:43,442 --> 00:58:47,262
Speaker 1: one common enemy or one common source of the problem.

1062
00:58:47,322 --> 00:58:49,202
Speaker 1: And that's why we need to change that system.

1063
00:58:50,352 --> 00:58:52,192
Speaker 4: Well, that seems like a good point to end it.

1064
00:58:52,512 --> 00:58:55,532
Speaker 4: Harjeet Singh, thank you very much. Thank you for listening

1065
00:58:55,572 --> 00:58:58,252
Speaker 4: to The Spill. For those who have been listening, I

1066
00:58:58,412 --> 00:59:02,162
Speaker 4: urge you to turn on the videocast. Harjeet Singh, best

1067
00:59:02,202 --> 00:59:06,322
Speaker 4: dressed man in the climate world, has been well known

1068
00:59:06,382 --> 00:59:09,442
Speaker 4: for his wonderful tasting clothes. So please tune in on

1069
00:59:09,462 --> 00:59:12,242
Speaker 4: the video to see Harjeet in person. Harjeet, thank you

1070
00:59:12,282 --> 00:59:14,412
Speaker 4: so much. And, you know, we'll speak to you again soon.

1071
00:59:14,472 --> 00:59:14,972
Speaker 3: Thanks a lot.

1072
00:59:15,912 --> 00:59:17,332
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Dina, for having me.

1073
00:59:23,072 --> 00:59:26,612
Speaker 2: The Spill is a regularly recurring segment of the Drilled podcast.

1074
00:59:26,692 --> 00:59:28,802
Speaker 2: It comes out every Friday when we're not in the

1075
00:59:28,842 --> 00:59:32,562
Speaker 2: middle of a narrative season. If you have ideas for

1076
00:59:32,662 --> 00:59:35,402
Speaker 2: folks you'd like to see us interview on here, let

1077
00:59:35,462 --> 00:59:38,922
Speaker 2: us know. We're at Drilled Media on all social media platforms,

1078
00:59:39,342 --> 00:59:43,382
Speaker 2: or you can email me at amy at drilled.media. Links

1079
00:59:43,402 --> 00:59:46,162
Speaker 2: to all the stories we mentioned and to pre-order my

1080
00:59:46,202 --> 00:59:49,992
Speaker 2: book are in the show notes. The Spill is produced

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00:59:50,132 --> 00:59:54,092
Speaker 2: by Peter Duff and edited by Aline Brown. Our theme

1082
00:59:54,132 --> 00:59:57,852
Speaker 2: song is Bird in the Hand by Fournone. Artwork by

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00:59:57,972 --> 01:00:02,222
Speaker 2: Matthew Fleming. Our First Amendment attorney is James Wheaton. of

1084
01:00:02,262 --> 01:00:05,762
Speaker 2: the First Amendment Project. You can find transcripts of The

1085
01:00:05,822 --> 01:00:10,572
Speaker 2: Spill online at drilled.media. Like the rest of Drilled, The

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01:00:10,652 --> 01:00:15,472
Speaker 2: Spill is distributed by Pushkin Industries. The team there is

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01:00:15,632 --> 01:00:20,752
Speaker 2: Eric Sandler, Grace Ross, Morgan Ratner, Owen Miller, Kira Posey,

1088
01:00:21,162 --> 01:00:24,582
Speaker 2: Jordan McMillan, Brian Shreberneck, and Jake Flanagan.

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01:00:28,142 --> 01:00:28,442
Speaker 1: Thank you.