Speaker 1: Pushkin Luxury. Today's song is from one of the greatest
Speaker 1: bands in alternative rock history and one of the best
Speaker 1: albums of the nineteen nineties.
Speaker 2: That's right, t'alla.
Speaker 3: And if you've seen this band perform live recently, chances
Speaker 3: are they close their set with this epic rock anthem.
Speaker 1: That's right. It's one song, and that song is Chair
Speaker 1: Up Rock by the Smashing Pumpkins. I'm actor, writer, director,
Speaker 1: and sometimes DJ Diallo Riddle.
Speaker 3: And I'm producer, DJ, songwriter and musicologist Luxury aka the
Speaker 3: guy who Whispers and.
Speaker 2: On the Internet.
Speaker 1: So hey, we're going back. We're putting on our flannel shirts.
Speaker 1: We are watching Seinfeld in real time. It is the nineties,
Speaker 1: and I think we have to just embrace our alternative
Speaker 1: rock IIDs, that's right. This is the episode where we're
Speaker 1: talking about, isn't it. Yeah, yeah, all eight Yeah, we're
Speaker 1: talking about Smashing Pumpkins. And before we dive into the song,
Speaker 1: let's scale back a bit. I know that the Smashing
Speaker 1: Pumpkins are huge for both of us, but what music
Speaker 1: memories do you have of the Pumpkins and how have
Speaker 1: they influenced you.
Speaker 3: I just want to say this is one of these
Speaker 3: bands that it was a moment in time that really
Speaker 3: did a lot of like I was gonna say damage
Speaker 3: to my psyche, but like it's just impacted me greatly.
Speaker 3: The sound, the lyrics, everything about them was really important.
Speaker 3: I'll never forget the first time I heard them. I
Speaker 3: was a proud member of the sub Pop Singles Club,
Speaker 3: which was the record label Subpop that you know Nirvana
Speaker 3: and mud Honey. Yeah, and I literally submobed a.
Speaker 1: Maker of T shirts worn by middle aged Dan exactly
Speaker 1: the airport exactly.
Speaker 3: Well at the time, you'd get like a seven in
Speaker 3: single every month and get in the mail, and that's
Speaker 3: what I got. And Tristessa came to send nineteen ninety.
Speaker 3: It was their first single, and I loved it immediately.
Speaker 3: Let me play a little bit. This is what I
Speaker 3: would have heard Little Little Luxury in nineteen ninety.
Speaker 1: That's a very cool song. You've got that. Yeah, Little
Speaker 1: were like, oh, I like this, I like this.
Speaker 3: This was like I'm a drummer in this moment, and
Speaker 3: I'm a drummer in my college band, and that's Jimmy
Speaker 3: Chamberlain on drums, and I'm immediately a huge fan of
Speaker 3: Jimmy Chamberlain. The way he opens that song and is
Speaker 3: We're going to get into Jimmy Chamberlain later the episode,
Speaker 3: but he's a very special musical influence.
Speaker 1: Usually when you talk Smashing Pumpkins, it's a lot about
Speaker 1: Billy Corgan, but we're going to talk about all these
Speaker 1: wonderful members in the group.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're also a big special I have a.
Speaker 1: Fan smash, a Puckus fan. When you said, hey, let'sen
Speaker 1: just match your mother's episode, I was like, yes, please listen.
Speaker 1: Simeon's Dream is the is one of those CDs that
Speaker 1: you saw in everybody's dorm room if you were a
Speaker 1: college kid in the nineties. I was there. I saw
Speaker 1: those CDs. I was more of a melancholy fan, full
Speaker 1: of full disclosure. I saw the album art and I
Speaker 1: was like, oh, you know, I know I like today.
Speaker 1: You know that was my song off of Siamese Dream.
Speaker 1: But I was like, let me check out more from
Speaker 1: this band. And my favorite Smashing Pumpkin story is that
Speaker 1: I was driving down Sunset Boulevard, like right after I graduated,
Speaker 1: and the Virgin Megastore used to sit on the corner
Speaker 1: of Crescent Heights and Sunset. It's funny how much space.
Speaker 1: CD stores used to take it right. Oh.
Speaker 3: I used to the Virgin Megastore in New York. That
Speaker 3: was a big destination, the stations.
Speaker 1: You could listen to CDs all day. But I'll never forget.
Speaker 1: They had blocked off the road and I was like,
Speaker 1: what's going on here? And I saw a band setting
Speaker 1: up on the rooftop. No way, and I seriously I
Speaker 1: parked on like Laurel, right next to the Laugh Factory,
Speaker 1: and I walked over and I was like, oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: it's smashing pumps is on the roof of the Virgin
Speaker 1: Megastore and they played this whole big concert with songs
Speaker 1: from Siamese Dream and Melancholy, and I think a door
Speaker 1: had just come out, and like the streets. We filled
Speaker 1: the streets of that big corner. If you've ever been
Speaker 1: in LA that's like a really big corner.
Speaker 2: It was this like a beatles like YouTube things.
Speaker 1: I don't know how spontaneous it was. Maybe the word
Speaker 1: had gotten out, like it was a pretty huge crowd
Speaker 1: of people, but like the sun was going down over
Speaker 1: the hills and like Billy and James and Jimmy and
Speaker 1: Dark and it was that was when I realized, you
Speaker 1: know what, my my fandom of this band is above
Speaker 1: some other bands.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, they're real special band. Agree, that's so cool.
Speaker 3: Well, I mean just leaping ahead a little bit, like
Speaker 3: when I started making music myself. So many influences, you know.
Speaker 3: At the time, there were a handful of things that
Speaker 3: like I knew I was trying to do, and some
Speaker 3: things that later on I'm like, oh, I was thinking
Speaker 3: about this band. Smashing Pupkins were definitely front and center
Speaker 3: for me. There was something about the sound being this
Speaker 3: combination of epic rock, bomb bass frankly, and then like
Speaker 3: the bombas is a big the no and then I
Speaker 3: love the unabashedness. It's like, let's put bombast in this.
Speaker 3: That's what he wants on a bash at bomb bass.
Speaker 3: He It's a goal of his at a time when
Speaker 3: that was not what people it was. It had fallen
Speaker 3: from favor and it was it was an unusual choice.
Speaker 3: We're going to talk about that a little bit later.
Speaker 3: But I was also kind of wanting to do a
Speaker 3: similar thing and San Francisco early, you know, two thousands,
Speaker 3: where I was like, you know, there's a lot of
Speaker 3: indie stuff that was broken beat was happening and kind
Speaker 3: of obscure, and I was like, no, I want to
Speaker 3: like swing for the fences and have these.
Speaker 2: Big guitar crunchy rips and stuff like that.
Speaker 3: And I kind of had a similar experience where like
Speaker 3: my scene didn't really embrace me. San Francisco in the
Speaker 3: early two thousands was not super kind to lecture embracing. Well,
Speaker 3: you know, we can get into some theories I have,
Speaker 3: but I definitely felt some identification with Billy's kind of sensibility.
Speaker 3: And part of why I wanted to do this song
Speaker 3: is because it is about this exact phenomenon of like
Speaker 3: the gatekeepers in the indie rock community and the gatekeepers
Speaker 3: on MTV, and his feeling of like screw you guys,
Speaker 3: Like this is the music that's real to me and
Speaker 3: that's coming naturally and that I want to make even
Speaker 3: if it doesn't seem cool to you guys.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that. I love that he was going
Speaker 1: at the gate keepers, by the way, they were on Virgin. Yes,
Speaker 1: a very first record industry job after college. You know,
Speaker 1: my first record label job was at La Face, my
Speaker 1: second one was at Virgin. You know, this is right
Speaker 1: after college, and so I actually have a ton of
Speaker 1: pristine smashing pumpkins.
Speaker 2: Do you really?
Speaker 1: I really do? Like, you know, like the so Melancholy
Speaker 1: was a double CD, so I have like the four vinyl?
Speaker 2: Are you serious? I was again drooling with ND Smashing.
Speaker 1: As a double vinyl because as it was a single CD,
Speaker 1: but they really wanted that one and eighty gram you
Speaker 1: know how much vinyl.
Speaker 3: This is like sort of an obscure, kind of an anecdote,
Speaker 3: but like the moment this record came out was the
Speaker 3: moment I had held held off for years on CDs.
Speaker 3: I was like, what a garbage technology? Remember long boxes
Speaker 3: and all that. I hated it, But in this moment,
Speaker 3: I was like I was at college and I was like,
Speaker 3: it's it's I didn't have enough room to always be
Speaker 3: carding around and like I made the conversion with Siamese
Speaker 3: Dream Yes, And I regret it to this day that
Speaker 3: I don't actually have it on vinyl and I had
Speaker 3: Gish on vinyl. A big regret in my life is
Speaker 3: where did that vinyl go? The fact that you have
Speaker 3: all this vinyl, I'm very very.
Speaker 1: Forget that we ever discussed this, and maybe there'll be
Speaker 1: something for you come toss.
Speaker 2: I do have birthday coming up.
Speaker 1: It's true, but listen. Yeah, Smashic Pumpkins is literally one
Speaker 1: of the most successful rock bands of all time. They've
Speaker 1: sold thirty million albums. This song is off of Siamese Dream.
Speaker 1: It went four times platinum and Melancholy Infinite Sadness and
Speaker 1: actually Diamonds it sold ten million or more.
Speaker 2: Copirazy. That doesn't happen anymore, No, it really doesn't.
Speaker 1: It was literally like the second they came up with
Speaker 1: that certification.
Speaker 2: Here used it again.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like the ultimate humorous but people used to
Speaker 1: pay for art. Smashing Pumpkins has had one number one hit,
Speaker 1: seven top ten hits. They've been nominated for eleven Grammys
Speaker 1: and they won too. They won nineteen ninety seven for
Speaker 1: Bullet with Butterfly Wings great song, and they won in
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety eight for the End Is the Beginning? Is
Speaker 1: the end? I don't know the choice?
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, visual choice, bouncy.
Speaker 1: That sounds like they became friends with the Grammys.
Speaker 2: Yeah, people like you've been screwing us for years.
Speaker 1: Hey, what song do you want to be nominated for?
Speaker 2: You gotta give us one. Just pick a song. We'll
Speaker 2: take it. Song, We'll take it homey.
Speaker 1: And will win Best Hard Rock perform.
Speaker 2: It's a fine song, but it's not like one that
Speaker 2: is in the pantheon.
Speaker 1: And by the way, all the success very much deserved
Speaker 1: by the Pumpkins. I mean, if you think about their hits,
Speaker 1: it's nineteen seventy nine, Bullet with butterfly Wings, Disarm Today,
Speaker 1: my own personal favorite, Tonight Tonight. And when we were
Speaker 1: preparing this episode, we had a listen. We had a
Speaker 1: vigorous back and forth about which of these songs that
Speaker 1: we would do. But you know, in some cases we
Speaker 1: didn't have the stems. Hello Tonight, Tonight could not find
Speaker 1: you anywhere. In other cases, it isn't necessarily the song
Speaker 1: that we wanted to discuss. I personally love nineteen seventy nine.
Speaker 2: I love that song too, Yes your Poets and I'm
Speaker 2: meant yeah.
Speaker 1: And this is one of the things we discussed. It's
Speaker 1: not the most smashing pumpkinny. It's it's kind of a
Speaker 1: little outlier. That's a little bit of an outlier. Latrie
Speaker 1: help us understand what led to that wonderfully distinct smashing
Speaker 1: pumpkin sound.
Speaker 3: A really unique thing about Billy Corgan in this moment
Speaker 3: in nineteen ninety three, when when this record is being
Speaker 3: made and when this song comes out, is that he's
Speaker 3: bringing his heavy metal background to indie rock, to a
Speaker 3: post Nirvana world where heavy metal judas Priest and accept
Speaker 3: and like all Rainbow, all of these seventies hard rock
Speaker 3: bands and Queen and Boston, all of these bands he's
Speaker 3: actually aiming to emulate. He is aiming to bring back
Speaker 3: their bomb bass and they are huge rock guitar walls
Speaker 3: of sound and epic noss and the voice. All of
Speaker 3: it is a conscious effort to bring something that had
Speaker 3: been kind of lost in the eighties. It's like a
Speaker 3: throwback to the seventies and he's like, the world is
Speaker 3: ready to hear this again. And it's a real risk
Speaker 3: because in indie rock circles, like in this Nirvana world
Speaker 3: where there's pavement in Sebado and Sonic Youth, that is
Speaker 3: not cool.
Speaker 1: Right, And I mean, like, I think you kind of
Speaker 1: get into what I was going to ask, which is
Speaker 1: what makes his sound different from somebody like Soundgarden.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And that's a great question because I think in
Speaker 3: Billy's mind he was thinking the same thing. I think
Speaker 3: Billy had something about Soundgarden as a band in his
Speaker 3: mind that he was competitive with them and wondering why
Speaker 3: they got kind of more indie cred and by the way,
Speaker 3: subpop band originally, then they got signed to A and M.
Speaker 3: But in his mind he was wondering the same thing,
Speaker 3: how come I can't do what Soundgarden does. One obviously
Speaker 3: distinction is that he doesn't have Chris Cornell's voice, so
Speaker 3: he can't sing like Chris Cornell did. But I think
Speaker 3: another thing that I thought about this a lot. I
Speaker 3: think Soundgarden was able to inject a little bit of
Speaker 3: a wink and a nudge of irony, which was a
Speaker 3: big thing culturally in the early nineties. Sure absolutely, and
Speaker 3: Kirk Cobain would do the same thing when they would
Speaker 3: take a whailing guitar solo. It was a little bit
Speaker 3: of a wink, wink, nudge nudge. When Billy Corgan takes
Speaker 3: a guitar solo, there's no it's without guile. It's like
Speaker 3: I'm swinging for the fences. I am Brian May two
Speaker 3: point zero, I'm Richie Blackmore two point zero, And I
Speaker 3: think to a lot of people in that moment in
Speaker 3: the community, it's like, bro, that's just not cool.
Speaker 1: You know what's interesting about what you just said is
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about a song like today where the lyrics
Speaker 1: are really positive, but he's clearly in a bad place.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and that is a sarcastic song actually, So.
Speaker 1: That actually is some yeah, right, irony, sarcas, whatever you
Speaker 1: want to call it. So he wasn't anti irony, but
Speaker 1: I do get where like he wasn't ironic in the
Speaker 1: way that some of the other bands of this era are.
Speaker 3: It's so perfect that you brought that song up because
Speaker 3: Billy tells the story about how that song was actually
Speaker 3: a turning point in his inner turmoil. And again, this song,
Speaker 3: Terra barc We're gonna get very deep into it. It
Speaker 3: is about this what I just described, his feelings towards
Speaker 3: the hipster community, hipster's unite, as he sings, But that
Speaker 3: was one of the last songs he actually wrote for
Speaker 3: the album. He was still wrestling with it earlier in
Speaker 3: the songwriting process for Siamese Dream. He writes today, and
Speaker 3: he says how that was a moment that he was
Speaker 3: able to reconcile these opposing forces of coolness and uncoolness
Speaker 3: that he was feeling about his songwriting he was recognizing
Speaker 3: that it just wasn't being accepted in Chicago's you Know,
Speaker 3: Hipster Worlds and MTV's Hipster one hundred and twenty minutes
Speaker 3: whatever they were being played. But he felt some disrespect
Speaker 3: for in his way. But he says about found a
Speaker 3: quote about the song today. He felt that it captured
Speaker 3: his essence as these are his words a core boy
Speaker 3: from fucking Chicago. He goes, I reached a point where
Speaker 3: there was a direct conflict between what I was trying
Speaker 3: to be and who I really was. I was trying
Speaker 3: to be this person who is cool, eternally rocking, and
Speaker 3: yet I was writing this dumb song Like today, I'd
Speaker 3: reached a fork in the road. Do I throw this
Speaker 3: in the trash and try and pursue some kind of
Speaker 3: ideal that I can't live up to, or just accept
Speaker 3: who I am? And in this song he does that,
Speaker 3: and interestingly, to your point, he finds some irony that
Speaker 3: had been maybe previously lacking from the rest of his work.
Speaker 3: It starts to be kind of more of a balance
Speaker 3: with the bomb Bast, which is unabash hit bomb Bast
Speaker 3: and a little bit of a self awareness maybe seeping
Speaker 3: in about how it is perceived and he doesn't care.
Speaker 3: He's starting to just not care. He's letting go of
Speaker 3: caring what the gatekeepers think.
Speaker 1: If it's possible, I want to take a step back
Speaker 1: and talk about the founding of the group. Billy Co
Speaker 1: founds the band in nineteen eighty eight in Chicago with
Speaker 1: guitarist James Zha. Not too long after that, they recruit
Speaker 1: a drummer and a bassis. Let me ask you, as
Speaker 1: an expert of the band, what's the dynamic of the
Speaker 1: band in these early days.
Speaker 3: So I think in the early days you have to
Speaker 3: understand that the band Smashing Pumpkins in Billy's mind has
Speaker 3: always been kind of an entity that is a band.
Speaker 3: But to the rest of the world, it mostly kind
Speaker 3: of seems like Billy and whoever is around, because there
Speaker 3: are shifting members of the band. We have Darcy on
Speaker 3: bass and then she's gone in Melissa Aftermarf from Whole
Speaker 3: replaces or et cetera. And Jimmy Chamberlain is in the
Speaker 3: band and then he is gone and then he comes back.
Speaker 1: I will say, you know, this is like during a
Speaker 1: period where you know, I'm listening to music constantly and
Speaker 1: I know what bands look like like nowadays, Like I'll
Speaker 1: hear about a rapper for a full year before I
Speaker 1: ever find out, Oh that's losif hurt, Like it'll take
Speaker 1: me some time. But back then I knew the Smashing Pumpkins.
Speaker 1: It is ironic. I thought they were like one of
Speaker 1: the most diverse bands of the period, Like, you know,
Speaker 1: you've got an Asian guy, yeah, and a cool you
Speaker 1: know girl, Like they just seem like a more of
Speaker 1: a mix of people than just like five or six
Speaker 1: white dudes.
Speaker 3: My speculation I've listened to There's a lot of Billy
Speaker 3: Corgan interview footage out there, and there's a lot he
Speaker 3: talks about this stuff a lot over the years, and
Speaker 3: I think there's some things that are consistent in some
Speaker 3: things that change. So this is me speculating from what
Speaker 3: I pieced together. I think he's always wanted a tribe
Speaker 3: a home because he came from a broken home. His
Speaker 3: parents were divorced when he was three, and he was
Speaker 3: shounted off to his great grandmother and then his grandmother.
Speaker 3: His dad got remarried, but his stepmother was abusive and
Speaker 3: his mother was not well, so he couldn't really live
Speaker 3: with her. He has this looking for a home miss
Speaker 3: in his childhood that really lasts his entire life until
Speaker 3: recent days, where he's happily married now, so everything ended well.
Speaker 3: But in the band days, it seems like he's trying
Speaker 3: to put together a new family, but it's difficult for
Speaker 3: him to hold on to them, and he's also very controlling,
Speaker 3: so he will record a lot of music and then
Speaker 3: kind of replace parts and we'll be getting into that later,
Speaker 3: which has the effect of pushing away these family members.
Speaker 3: So the bandness, I think, feels like a very carefully
Speaker 3: cultivated thing to build a tribe, to build a family,
Speaker 3: to be part of something. But just like the scene
Speaker 3: at large that rejects him the band, he has this
Speaker 3: push pull and yeah, he's back to being alone within
Speaker 3: the band.
Speaker 2: Not to mention, well, I mean.
Speaker 1: Look good, sugarcoated. He also has a reputation for being
Speaker 1: extremely hard to get along with.
Speaker 3: I mean, but which is the cause in which is
Speaker 3: the effect? Is hard to say that that is true.
Speaker 3: I don't want to push that aside, but you know,
Speaker 3: I have a lot of empathy for him. He has
Speaker 3: such a vision, he has such a sound in mind,
Speaker 3: and he's also coming from such frankly a dark place
Speaker 3: that he's got a lot to express and only he
Speaker 3: knows how to express it. And listen, I can speak
Speaker 3: from personal experience, like without that troubled background. I also
Speaker 3: know that it is tricky sometimes to like navigate between
Speaker 3: like are you my collaborator? Are you the person that's
Speaker 3: executing my vision? If you are, how do I make
Speaker 3: you feel good about it?
Speaker 2: And stay?
Speaker 3: It's really tricky stuff, And the story of Smashing Pumpkins
Speaker 3: is I think very much Billy wanting a family, musicians,
Speaker 3: wanting to be in this tribe, and it being a
Speaker 3: really tricky thing from one album to the next, from
Speaker 3: one year to the next.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think what you're saying is true, And there's
Speaker 1: a lot there's a lot of quotes out there that
Speaker 1: back up everything you're saying. Billy's quoted in the La
Speaker 1: Times of saying, quote, I don't have the proper indie credentials.
Speaker 1: I didn't play in some seminal band where five people
Speaker 1: bought the record. Yeah, oh man, he says, I wasn't
Speaker 1: a roadie. That kind of rags to Rich's story. And
Speaker 1: I think you actually have a quote too from Rolling Stone.
Speaker 2: This from nineteen ninety three.
Speaker 3: You know, kind of right when the song is coming out,
Speaker 3: I'm like the fugitive running from the one armed indie
Speaker 3: rock community. If I continued on the path I was on.
Speaker 3: In other words, this is this moment where he's making
Speaker 3: this decision. Do I keep on trying to win the
Speaker 3: approval of these people, or do I just do what
Speaker 3: I want to do, which is big, bombastic rock. If
Speaker 3: I continued on the path I was on, which was
Speaker 3: being overly conscious and worried what the indie rock hierarchy
Speaker 3: was going to think of our new album, we were
Speaker 3: going to fail.
Speaker 2: So Billy is a thoughtful.
Speaker 3: Maybe overthinking person, but obviously it goes into the music,
Speaker 3: and it goes into the lyrics, and it goes into
Speaker 3: the song in a really big way.
Speaker 1: For me personally, He's an example of somebody who it's
Speaker 1: almost like Morris and the Smith's like, I love that music. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't have to really make my peace with the
Speaker 1: man behind the curtain.
Speaker 3: You don't have to, I think. I Actually it's interesting
Speaker 3: because I've been recently. I just listened to his more
Speaker 3: recent interviews and comparing them to the old stuff, and
Speaker 3: he's come a long way. But there's also some questions
Speaker 3: swirling about his political affiliations, which I haven't quite landed myself.
Speaker 3: You know, we don't need to get into but I
Speaker 3: do think that at the time, what he was dealing
Speaker 3: with was, Look, there's this famous song by Pavement, right,
Speaker 3: we got to talk about the Pavements song day, Let's talk.
Speaker 3: In nineteen ninety four, Pavement puts out a song called
Speaker 3: Range Life, which includes this lyric I'll play it for
Speaker 3: you and then I'll I'll read the lyric in case
Speaker 3: he missed it. Smash's Nature Kids.
Speaker 1: They don't have no function. I don't understand what they
Speaker 1: mean in Rocket Thank you fuck. We should have included
Speaker 1: this in our beef episode.
Speaker 3: Hey you right, it's a beef trip. That's a real
Speaker 3: beaf track. I mean, out on tour with the Smashing Pumpkins.
Speaker 3: Nature Kids, they don't have no function. I don't understand
Speaker 3: what they mean, and I could really give a fuck.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 3: This is nineteen ninety four, Pavement being maybe the ultimate
Speaker 3: like indie rock cred band, and personally speaking, I was
Speaker 3: not a Pavement fan like this represented a type of
Speaker 3: music I couldn't really get behind.
Speaker 1: At a friend, a black friend who was really into Pavement, okay,
Speaker 1: and and got me to you know, I would listen
Speaker 1: to it when he would listen to it, but it
Speaker 1: wasn't quite my thing.
Speaker 3: It's more lyrics driven, I mean, musically, it's not really
Speaker 3: important what's happening in the music.
Speaker 2: It's not for saying.
Speaker 3: It's more than coming from like a Bob Dylan tradition.
Speaker 3: It's more coming from or Elliot Smith or Leonard Cohen.
Speaker 3: It's like the lyrics are while we're here. It's not
Speaker 3: even melody matters lesson music. So I wasn't into it,
Speaker 3: and Pavement was not into smashing pumpkins and smashing pumpkins,
Speaker 3: and Billy, I should say, hearing this song was not
Speaker 3: very happy himself. The result of this song coming out is,
Speaker 3: according to legend, he told the Lollapalooz organizers that the
Speaker 3: Pumpkins would pull off the bill they were going to
Speaker 3: headline that year if Pavement were also on the bill.
Speaker 3: What So he was bitter. He was, like, this song
Speaker 3: really got to got under his skin.
Speaker 1: Never find out about your heroes. Yeah, it always stretches
Speaker 1: a little petty when people pull their muscle.
Speaker 2: Like well, so, but here's a good question. You mentioned petty.
Speaker 3: Like at the time, what he said in Rolling Stone
Speaker 3: was I think that this is Billy Corgan referring to
Speaker 3: that lyric I displayed for you. He said at the time,
Speaker 3: I think it's rooted in jealousy. It shows true pettiness
Speaker 3: to your point. So who's the pettier one, the one
Speaker 3: who puts the song out or the one who reacts
Speaker 3: to the song about them?
Speaker 1: Right? I mean, I'm not even a Pavement fan. If
Speaker 1: he's just being honest in the lyric, then I'm sort
Speaker 1: of like cool with that.
Speaker 3: But I think, well, wait, if someone proud a song
Speaker 3: saying Diallo really.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not gonna be like, if you ever have
Speaker 1: an interview with that guy, there ain't no more one song,
Speaker 1: you know. I think that that's I don't love it
Speaker 1: when artists do that kind of stuff, Like I think, like,
Speaker 1: just on to him the song, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: But like you know, and Billy Corgan has a connection
Speaker 1: to Courtney Love and whole as well. Can you tell
Speaker 1: us what that's about?
Speaker 2: Yes?
Speaker 3: Well, actually technically everyone knows this, but Billy Corgan was
Speaker 3: first to date Courtney Love.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's true.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And famously, as he's told the story himself. I
Speaker 3: think he kicked her out and then she went down
Speaker 3: the street, according to the story he tells, and saw
Speaker 3: a Nirvana show and started dating him. Whether it's like
Speaker 3: literally the same night or whether it's a little exaggerated,
Speaker 3: but like she basically went from Billy to Kurt. And
Speaker 3: this maybe fuels a little bit of how Billy Corgan
Speaker 3: sees the world in this moment, because Nirvana, clearly, you know,
Speaker 3: is the indie Darling of nineteen ninety one and onward.
Speaker 2: And rightfully so, and rightfully so.
Speaker 3: And it should be noted that their first record, Gish,
Speaker 3: was produced by Butch Vig, and it came out first.
Speaker 2: And guess what else Butchvig was working on in that
Speaker 2: same time period.
Speaker 3: I can guess never Mind was released just four or
Speaker 3: five months after Gish, the first Smashing Pumpkins record. So
Speaker 3: Billy is feeling maybe left out of something bigger happening
Speaker 3: to someone that's right next to him, which.
Speaker 1: Big one of my favorite guys from the nineties, and
Speaker 1: I'm a huge Garbage fan. I think the stuff that
Speaker 1: he did with a Shirley Manson the crew was outstanding.
Speaker 1: But Corgan is he gets back with Corney, I believe,
Speaker 1: and yes, he co wrote five songs with Courtney on
Speaker 1: Hole's album Celebrity Skin, which is one of my favorite
Speaker 1: and listen, I'll admit it, I'll take the heat. I
Speaker 1: think Celebrity Skin is a great album.
Speaker 2: No heat, I malib I love that.
Speaker 1: I love that song. And I actually remember exactly where
Speaker 1: I was at. I was at a party the very
Speaker 1: first time I heard the title track Celebrity Skin.
Speaker 2: Oh make me out, I'm all I want to be.
Speaker 3: Day.
Speaker 2: I just forgot how much I love that sick baseline.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so also I love it, But I also hear
Speaker 1: now so clearly how the guy who co wrote Celebrity
Speaker 1: Skin could have also written Bull of a Butterfly Wings. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we're tearing up the studio. The music. The music has
Speaker 1: that effect on us.
Speaker 3: Can I just say this is not one of my
Speaker 3: favorite songs. And part of it is because I talk
Speaker 3: this go ahead I feel like and I've heard and
Speaker 3: interviews him sort of allude to this corowaway this. I'm
Speaker 3: pretty sure he wrote this because he thought he was
Speaker 3: supposed to write it, like he was told to write
Speaker 3: another hit. Not dissimilar to some of the Tara Brock
Speaker 3: type anthems from Siamese Dream because it's very smashing pumpkins
Speaker 3: by numbers, like right down to the part where he
Speaker 3: it's just him with no music behind him.
Speaker 1: My rage gium still just reading a came despite my
Speaker 1: rage gia still just reading a cad.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: I heard that this was the first song of the
Speaker 1: Melancholi sessions. Ironically, tonight, tonight, probably my favorite song was
Speaker 1: written during the Siamese Dream sessions. Oh really, and he
Speaker 1: just he actually, while they were touring Siamese Dream, he
Speaker 1: like booked some studio time and had the band go
Speaker 1: in and actually record that song while he had all
Speaker 1: these ideas running through his head. But I believe that
Speaker 1: Bullet is the first from Melancholy, and the last from
Speaker 1: Melancholy is nineteen seventy nine. And then it almost didn't
Speaker 1: make the album. But when I think it's the producer
Speaker 1: known as Flood told him, hey, I don't know about
Speaker 1: this nineteen seventy nine. It doesn't sound like you guys.
Speaker 1: You should leave it off that He saw that as
Speaker 1: a challenge and went back into the studio for four
Speaker 1: more hours worked on nineteen seventy nine, and then when
Speaker 1: flood hurt. The next morning, he was like, uh, yeah,
Speaker 1: I was wrong. You should put this on the album.
Speaker 4: Ninety kids.
Speaker 3: Great song. It is in my like B list of favorites.
Speaker 3: I don't dislike it, but again, as a Jimmy Chamberlain fan, yeah,
Speaker 3: as a fan of the drums in this band as
Speaker 3: much as the guitar, it's a little bit like, Man,
Speaker 3: I wish they'd let us rip.
Speaker 1: On nineteen seventy nine. And I know that we have
Speaker 1: a lot of listeners, you know. I talked to folks
Speaker 1: and when I told them we were doing Smash Republicans,
Speaker 1: a lot of them were like, nineteen seventy nine, Listen,
Speaker 1: we love that song. I do think that we just
Speaker 1: wanted to do something that felt a little bit more
Speaker 1: like the band's signature sound. But like nobody's taking anything
Speaker 1: away from it. And by the way, it's their number
Speaker 1: one song, so oh yeah, you know.
Speaker 2: We understandable that you'd want us to break it down.
Speaker 1: Yes, but we want to talk about cherub Rock. So
Speaker 1: cherub Rock is on the Smashing Pumpkins' second album, Siamese Dream,
Speaker 1: released in July of nineteen ninety three. It was their
Speaker 1: first single off the album, and that's only because Billy
Speaker 1: fought the label hard for it to be the first single.
Speaker 1: That's right. For purely commercial reasons, this might have been
Speaker 1: one of the times that lay was right because they
Speaker 1: wanted the first single to be Today. Today turned out
Speaker 1: to be the second single, and Today is the single
Speaker 1: that broke the band big. But the album Siamese Dream
Speaker 1: is a wonderful picture of the band at that moment.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's so much going on. Corgan is depressed
Speaker 1: and suffering from writer's block. You've got things happening within
Speaker 1: the band, like James eh and Darcy are in and
Speaker 1: out of a romantic relationship, Jimmy Chamberlain is battling a
Speaker 1: heroin addiction, and the whole band is just there's a
Speaker 1: lot of infighting going on.
Speaker 2: That's right.
Speaker 3: And in Billy's own words, this is an interview who
Speaker 3: gave a few years later. He said, this is referring
Speaker 3: to the moment where they went into the studio for
Speaker 3: Siamese Dream. They had just come off this tour for
Speaker 3: a gish selling out everywhere we go. Everything was cool, fine, dandy.
Speaker 3: Then in his words, suddenly, boom Nirvana. We went from
Speaker 3: being seen as future stars almost to has beens. People
Speaker 3: were saying, well, if you were so good, this would
Speaker 3: have happened to you. So Billy is in a deep depression.
Speaker 3: As he said in another interview, I was suicidal plotting
Speaker 3: my own death for about two months. Everything you said
Speaker 3: about the breakups and the heroine, this is a dark,
Speaker 3: dark moment with a lot of pressure and a lot
Speaker 3: of confusion. We alluded to the breakthrough, so we've already
Speaker 3: kind of with the song today. So he breaks through
Speaker 3: and then these songs get written in the album is amazing,
Speaker 3: but in this moment before they get started on this
Speaker 3: very long drawn out process, they're in the studio for
Speaker 3: three or four months with like twelve fourteen hour days.
Speaker 3: It's a difficult album to make, and but a lot
Speaker 3: of great art comes out of challenging times.
Speaker 1: That's all true. And listen, after the break we will
Speaker 1: dive into how the song Chaeri Brock was actually made
Speaker 1: and does this song feature James Zha Darcy and Jimmy
Speaker 1: Chamberlain or not. Stay tuned for the answer after this
Speaker 1: welcome back to one song Luxury walk us through cher
Speaker 1: Brock tell us how did this song get made? Well?
Speaker 3: As we mentioned, this is the signs stream sessions. It's
Speaker 3: it's circa nineteen ninety three and we are in Atlanta
Speaker 3: with the band this fashion Pumpkins, and the band is
Speaker 3: there together. It's all four members. It's Butch Vig who
Speaker 3: is the producer. And yeah, I mean you can watch
Speaker 3: some great old interview footage where there they are very bored.
Speaker 3: These are long days. They are tracking guitars like there.
Speaker 3: Some songs have like forty guitars in them, like stacks
Speaker 3: and stacks. They are rehearsing, They're getting many takes of
Speaker 3: Jimmy Chamberlain playing drums. It seems very grueling. It seems
Speaker 3: like this record was a very long, laborious labor of love,
Speaker 3: but laborious.
Speaker 1: Nevertheless, it almost seems like Billy Corgan brings you into
Speaker 1: his family and then torture. Shit.
Speaker 3: Maybe maybe it's a little bit of a shadow of
Speaker 3: what he experienced himself.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So this song, though, to be clear, is it's a
Speaker 3: one hundred percent Billy Corgan composition, And as we go
Speaker 3: through the instruments, we'll talk about who actually was performing
Speaker 3: these parts because it might be a little surprising. So interestingly,
Speaker 3: Billy wrote this song pretty quickly. He says, I wrote
Speaker 3: Tara Brock and half an hour. I heard it one
Speaker 3: day while I was driving up the road. It was
Speaker 3: one of the last songs I wrote before we did
Speaker 3: the album. The thing is, there's parts of me that
Speaker 3: wonder what would have happened if I spent four hours
Speaker 3: writing it and not done something else. So it's interesting
Speaker 3: his dichotomy between like being somebody who spends hours and
Speaker 3: hours and hours like tracking guitars one at a time
Speaker 3: and getting that perfect sound, but his songwriting process, it
Speaker 3: sounds like he really quick, aims to be quick. The
Speaker 3: quicker the better. Yeah, it is the first song. It
Speaker 3: opens the album, and it's a pretty epic tune starting
Speaker 3: with and kind of based around Jimmy Chamberlain's ridiculously cool
Speaker 3: drum part. So he might be my favorite living drummer,
Speaker 3: and he is a powerful rock drummer, but he's got
Speaker 3: this incredibly light touch. So he's his influences when he
Speaker 3: talks about them, and some great interviews out there, he's
Speaker 3: always mentioning like Gene Krupa and Buddy Rich. You know,
Speaker 3: I can see that John Bottom's in the mix too,
Speaker 3: But like Jazz is a huge part as a drummer.
Speaker 1: You can tell, you can tell by his versatility. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and some of the and some of the fills that
Speaker 1: he used, you could totally see that being like, you know,
Speaker 1: like and now playing with Paul white Man, here comes
Speaker 1: Jimmy Chamblin.
Speaker 3: Well, without further ado, let's listen to some of the
Speaker 3: isolated drum tracks from Chera Brock. First, I'll play the part,
Speaker 3: and then I will play where it comes from, and
Speaker 3: then he gets a little more intense and it does
Speaker 3: the same thing but louder, and he does that Jon
Speaker 3: Bonamy kind of fill there. And Billy Corgan has gone
Speaker 3: on the record with how he was inspired for that
Speaker 3: part by this that is by Tor and the snow
Speaker 3: Dog by Rush from their nineteen seventy five album fly
Speaker 3: by Night. So I'll just play for you Chera Brock
Speaker 3: again with the guitars, so you can you know, having
Speaker 3: heard Rush, you'll hear the entire piece. Now listen, just
Speaker 3: the fact that Billy Corgan is referencing Rush, who might
Speaker 3: be the like in nineteen ninety three ninety two, especially
Speaker 3: the least cool band for this group of like his
Speaker 3: cohort of Pavement and Nirvana. This is a band that
Speaker 3: mud Honey used as an insult against their labelmate Soundgarden, saying,
Speaker 3: you guys sound like Rush, Like it's the worst thing
Speaker 3: you can say to anybody. And yet everyone secretly, especially
Speaker 3: the drummers in this world, love Rush because Rush is
Speaker 3: one of the great musical bands, and from a drummer's perspective,
Speaker 3: Neil Peert is one of the greatest living well at
Speaker 3: the time living drummers sadly passed away recently. But anyway,
Speaker 3: I think it's quite funny that there's a rush. It's
Speaker 3: not quite an interpolation, but so really cool connection there
Speaker 3: and a funny one little tongue in cheek. This is
Speaker 3: part and parcel of the song's DNA, which is about hey,
Speaker 3: screw you gatekeepers, Hey screw you hipper than thou hipsters,
Speaker 3: and which is a word that literally he uses in
Speaker 3: the song. We'll be hearing shortly, so there's that bold
Speaker 3: Rush reference, and then we have a little more Jimmy
Speaker 3: Chamberlain love to deliver. Let's hear some more of what
Speaker 3: he does in this song. He describes what he's doing
Speaker 3: as a conversation between the high hat and the ride,
Speaker 3: and there's all these ghost notes like the way he
Speaker 3: thinks about how to make a drum part to me
Speaker 3: is so it's so musical, and so it's about supporting
Speaker 3: the song and it's just a beautiful thing to listen to.
Speaker 1: I love it.
Speaker 2: And let's start adding stuff back in.
Speaker 3: So you can hear it in the context of the song.
Speaker 3: The lightness of touch is what I keep coming back to.
Speaker 3: How he manages to be heavy and strong and forceful
Speaker 3: and authoritative as a drummer, and yet there's like lightness
Speaker 3: going on. There's like an airiness to the hyats being
Speaker 3: a little open, and the ghost.
Speaker 2: Notes on the snare.
Speaker 3: I don't know, man, just my drummer brain gets so
Speaker 3: turned on by everything he does, so inspired by it. Absolutely,
Speaker 3: And here's the huhy part. So I'll play that for you.
Speaker 3: Then I'll add some instruments back in. There's another one
Speaker 3: of my favorite moments.
Speaker 2: It's funny because.
Speaker 1: I like that a lot. Well, yeah, what do you
Speaker 1: like about that?
Speaker 3: I mean, I'll play with some context and let's get
Speaker 3: into it. I have, by the way, spent many hours
Speaker 3: of my life playing along to this record, just air
Speaker 3: jarming along to it, so I know where every little moment,
Speaker 3: every fill is and if I were to try and
Speaker 3: sit down and it, you'd be like, that does not
Speaker 3: sound like Jimmy Chamberlin. You are playing the parts, but
Speaker 3: you are not playing them the way he does it,
Speaker 3: which is very interesting. This is just a snare fill.
Speaker 3: And look, we've come off of an episode recently where
Speaker 3: we were talking about the Tears for Fears. I mean,
Speaker 3: it's a drum machine. But by contrast, where because it's
Speaker 3: a drum machine, the sound is the same, it's just
Speaker 3: a little bit louder. When the film comes in dot
Speaker 3: dot dot do at the beginning, I've head over yells
Speaker 3: here is by this is the opposite of that. This
Speaker 3: is a great drummer who's carefully selected his snare and
Speaker 3: the snareheaded, the miking and everything, and the way he
Speaker 3: plays this snare fill is extraordinarily artful and specific. It's
Speaker 3: just a little moment, but it's got so much sauce
Speaker 3: in it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it definitely asks to the emotion of the song.
Speaker 3: Oh absolutely, this is kind of a similar moment. This
Speaker 3: is I'll add in the vocals so you can hear
Speaker 3: where this is.
Speaker 4: Li. So so what's interesting, and it's relevant to this point
Speaker 4: is that in the studio.
Speaker 3: I'm already kind of given the secret away. But the
Speaker 3: band performs as a unit of four. They lay down
Speaker 3: the drum tracks. That's how this record was made. Jimmy
Speaker 3: Chamberlain needed understandably for their to feel like a band,
Speaker 3: So they all performed all the songs together, and then
Speaker 3: they erased all the musical parts that weren't the drums,
Speaker 3: and then Billy went in and re recorded those parts.
Speaker 3: But while this was happening, Jimmy Chamberlain's musical drumming brain
Speaker 3: is hearing what is happening in every instrument and reacting
Speaker 3: to it in a way that only a drummer of
Speaker 3: his caliber can because all the little subtleties of when
Speaker 3: what the vocals are doing rhythmically, and it is enhancing
Speaker 3: them in some ways, giving them space to shine, in
Speaker 3: other ways duplicating the same rhythm maybe. So all of
Speaker 3: these choices are so part of what makes him a
Speaker 3: very incredible and artful drummer.
Speaker 1: Absolutely and specifically a rock drummer. You know, because I
Speaker 1: think that you know, we've talked about on the show.
Speaker 1: My earliest appreciation for drums was Animal from the Muppet Chef,
Speaker 1: and then from the beatles, and then I got into ato'
Speaker 1: eights and drum machines. It's interesting because hearing you talk
Speaker 1: about the emotion of these drums, that occurs to me.
Speaker 1: Most of my drum appreciation, even as a drummer myself,
Speaker 1: came from the effect that it gave you. You know what
Speaker 1: I mean, and you know, not to beat a dead horse,
Speaker 1: but I think that when the drum pattern changes a lot,
Speaker 1: you know, that's something I get really excited about, you know.
Speaker 1: But then again I like that bunk and a lot
Speaker 1: of times their songs are for.
Speaker 3: Hey, they're both satisfying in different ways. Sometimes there's like
Speaker 3: a one bar loop or a half bar loop in
Speaker 3: daft punk.
Speaker 2: Or a two bar loop.
Speaker 3: The satisfaction comes from it being repetitious and it kind.
Speaker 2: Of a drone can put you in a train, a trance.
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, it's it's almost you know, to
Speaker 1: go back to the Black Church. Like. Part of the
Speaker 1: reason those songs are always like that wasnotic. They're trying
Speaker 1: to whip you up in song.
Speaker 3: And then by contrast this song, by the way, it's
Speaker 3: not only is the drum part changing from moment to moment,
Speaker 3: because the human drummer Jimmy Chamberlin is playing it, but
Speaker 3: also the tempo's kind of rushing and slowing down. Suddenly
Speaker 3: there's no click track in this. This is played to
Speaker 3: Jimmy's internal metronome, which during the song kind of gets
Speaker 3: a little faster and then slows.
Speaker 1: Out a little bit. Jimmy's internal metrono, and also Billy's
Speaker 1: emotional state given where he is in the song, whether
Speaker 1: he's on the verse or whether he's on the chorus.
Speaker 1: H you know, I love the bass in this Songea,
Speaker 1: and I feel like there's a story here because the
Speaker 1: basis is usually darcy, is it not.
Speaker 3: Yeah, in the early nineties there's this phenomenon of like
Speaker 3: the female bass player and in otherwise male band. You've
Speaker 3: got like Kim Dial and the Pixies. You've got another
Speaker 3: Kim Kim Gordon from Sonic Youth. We had Debbie Googe
Speaker 3: in My Bloody Valentine was one of two. We have
Speaker 3: Tina from the Talking Heads. There this sort of legacy
Speaker 3: of like.
Speaker 1: The game was one of my favorite right right.
Speaker 3: I think that Billy was kind of wanting that visually,
Speaker 3: but in the studio he didn't need it so much.
Speaker 3: I don't know that Darcy was really giving him what
Speaker 3: he needed. Jimmy has explicitly talked about how Darcy's rhythm
Speaker 3: wasn't really working for him as a drummer. She was
Speaker 3: a little Nike not where he was in terms of
Speaker 3: the beat. So they performed in order to get Jimmy's
Speaker 3: drums down. But then the bass was erased. The Darcy
Speaker 3: Retzki take was erased, and Billy went in and this
Speaker 3: is what he played. And just one more thing on
Speaker 3: this issue, Like Billy, like he does with so many
Speaker 3: things we've we have learned on this episode, wrestled a
Speaker 3: lot with the decision to replace the bass parts, and
Speaker 3: in fact, in later years he expressed regret over what
Speaker 3: he did by taking them off the track. He said, look,
Speaker 3: musicianship and technical vision are finding good, but at some
Speaker 3: point you cross the line. No matter how good numb
Speaker 3: you got, you got, you cut away the gut of
Speaker 3: your band. And he has really rustled over the years
Speaker 3: with like how to make these other members of the
Speaker 3: band feel like they're in a band and not the
Speaker 3: Billy Corgan experience. And I think he's really got a
Speaker 3: dynamic of like he wants to control the sound he
Speaker 3: wants to control everything, but he doesn't want to control
Speaker 3: everything and does it's a real push pull.
Speaker 2: With him through the entire career of the band.
Speaker 3: Yeah, because Darcy wasn't happy.
Speaker 1: Well, listen, we like this band. Yes, every story that
Speaker 1: we're hearing makes it sound like it's really hard to
Speaker 1: work with Billy Cory. Yeah. I think, and we can
Speaker 1: probably imagine why James and Darcy and Jimmy why why
Speaker 1: the band does eventually wrote.
Speaker 3: Their own They come and go and actually James, both
Speaker 3: James and Jimmy are back in the current touring.
Speaker 1: Yeah, iteration of it's like, okay, well, you know, we're
Speaker 1: not under any illusion of who this guy is and
Speaker 1: he has great ideas.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and they know their place. They aren't considered I hope,
Speaker 3: I mean your place. I mean, look, the facts are
Speaker 3: the facts, and they aren't songwriters, so they're not making
Speaker 3: the untold millions that Billy has made on the publishing.
Speaker 1: It's tough when one guy has all the publishing and
Speaker 1: is making a mass sum of money and you're more
Speaker 1: than the right. Can we go out on tour because
Speaker 1: I wouldn't mind like paying the rent, Like that's not
Speaker 1: to say anybody in this band is suffering like that,
Speaker 1: but like still, I think we can understand where that
Speaker 1: makes conversations awkward.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it does.
Speaker 3: There is a power and balance, let's just put it
Speaker 3: that way. Billy kind of holds all the cards in
Speaker 3: terms of what happens with this band. But he has
Speaker 3: been loyal and loyalty. He's talked on the Howard Stern
Speaker 3: Show about how loyalty coming from this broken background, how
Speaker 3: in him trying to create this family. He does place
Speaker 3: a lot of importance on being loyal and having loyalty
Speaker 3: and the fact that he is currently literally on tour
Speaker 3: as we make this episode with James and Jimmy again,
Speaker 3: he is really trying to keep this family team now
Speaker 3: with Darcy. Darcy unfortunately is out of the picture. Okay, Yeah,
Speaker 3: there have been some leaked text messages that you know,
Speaker 3: it sounds like she's a little bit in a difficult
Speaker 3: spot recently in her life. But I think Billy has
Speaker 3: tried to make it work, and for various reasons, it didn't.
Speaker 3: But we do love you, Darcy.
Speaker 1: If you're out there, yeah, and if you want to
Speaker 1: give your side of the story, call us tell me
Speaker 1: about the guitarist because they are such a part of
Speaker 1: the signature Smashing Pumpkins.
Speaker 3: Sound absolutely, my friend. Well let's see, let's start with
Speaker 3: the pumpkin chord. The song begins with this big wall
Speaker 3: of guitars and then on the top of it. This
Speaker 3: is a big part of the sound of this band
Speaker 3: is you will frequently have a big wall of sound,
Speaker 3: maybe riffing, and then melodically on top there's something that
Speaker 3: almost sounds Indian. It almost has this raga feel to it,
Speaker 3: and it's it sounds well.
Speaker 2: In fact, it's.
Speaker 3: Funny you should say that because Billy has talked about
Speaker 3: how he wants to did this experiment where he played
Speaker 3: Black Sabbath in the one room and Rabbi Shankhar in
Speaker 3: the other room, and that actually is a perfect metaphor
Speaker 3: or an analogy, whatever the right word is for for
Speaker 3: the sound of the Pumpkins. They have this big riffy
Speaker 3: underpinning and then on top of it this beautiful melodic
Speaker 3: sound which is coming from basically playing an oc the
Speaker 3: same note as an octave up and down the fret
Speaker 3: and that's what we're about to hear. He calls it
Speaker 3: the pumpkin chord, but he's borrowed it from Jimmy Hendrix,
Speaker 3: and I'll play after I play this, I'll play the
Speaker 3: Jimmy Hendrix song that I think he was thinking of.
Speaker 3: And what I'm specifically referring to is that duh. So
Speaker 3: that's a melody, but he's playing it on the octave,
Speaker 3: so it's two notes of the melody, one lower, one higher,
Speaker 3: and it just thickens up the sound and again creates
Speaker 3: this kind of Indian raga feel mixed with I mean,
Speaker 3: I think that's what Hendrix is doing, and I'll say
Speaker 3: that sounds very.
Speaker 1: I can definitely hear the Jimmy Hendrix influence on that
Speaker 1: once you isolate it.
Speaker 3: So this Jimmy Hendrix song uses that same way of
Speaker 3: creating the melody.
Speaker 2: It's not uncommon.
Speaker 3: In fact, both Billy corgan And says we got this
Speaker 3: from Hendrix, but he probably got it from West Montgomery.
Speaker 3: It's a thing you do on guitar, but it's also
Speaker 3: a very distinctive sound, and here's a song where.
Speaker 2: Jimy Hendrix uses it. So Jimmy's doing the same thing.
Speaker 3: He's got the octave and he's playing the melody, but
Speaker 3: it's got a thicker tone and it's got a little Indiana.
Speaker 1: Who would have thought that Wes Montgomery was the link
Speaker 1: between Jimmy Hendrix smashing pumpkins and Doja Cat So so cool,
Speaker 1: kind of crazy, so cool.
Speaker 2: That was Third Stone from the Sun, by the way,
Speaker 2: from are you experiencing?
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, give us more guitars.
Speaker 3: So, like I said before, this record has some insane overdubs.
Speaker 3: One of the tricks of recording and mixing a big
Speaker 3: stack of guitars is you've got to find room for
Speaker 3: all of them where they just become this big mess,
Speaker 3: this big They're all in the same frequency range, so
Speaker 3: you have to cut the frequencies and do this and
Speaker 3: do that. So many many hours in the pre pro
Speaker 3: tool era went into doing that for this result, which
Speaker 3: I think was worth it because it arguably changed the
Speaker 3: sound of alternative radio. I mean, that just does something
Speaker 3: to my serotonin.
Speaker 1: It's great. I'm gonna do something that, uh, some of
Speaker 1: our listeners, it sounds a lot like this to me.
Speaker 2: I want to fly away, Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: I look, you can.
Speaker 3: Sim Look, I'm just gonna say this riff riffing, riff,
Speaker 3: rock like crunchy guitars that have catchy riffs, meaning the
Speaker 3: guitar is playing a figure, like a kind of a
Speaker 3: melodic figure that you walk away humming.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 3: I think that jim this goes back to Jimmy. It
Speaker 3: goes back so like the Kinks. I would say, right around, yeah.
Speaker 1: But specifically play the part you just played again, just
Speaker 1: right before I played the Lenny, just play that part.
Speaker 1: Oh oh oh yeah. I mean like I'm just saying
Speaker 1: that I think that Lenny. I'm not saying he stolen guys.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I'm so scared. But I do think that,
Speaker 1: like there's just I think everybody to a certain extent
Speaker 1: is chasing Jimmy when I hear that fuzzy guitar that
Speaker 1: you can like totally hum along to. And I don't
Speaker 1: know that I give it. I don't know if I
Speaker 1: love the Kings. I don't know if I hear that.
Speaker 1: When I hear the Kings, I definitely hear that. When
Speaker 1: I hear Jimmy, I hear what you're hearing. I think
Speaker 1: in part there's some shared chords going on there. These
Speaker 1: are Circle of fifth CE chords going on. They're in
Speaker 1: a slightly different order. And if you add to.
Speaker 3: That the sound of the guitar, Yeah, fuzz guitar, and
Speaker 3: then maybe there's maybe a rhythmically similar thing, although I
Speaker 3: think the Lenny's a little faster.
Speaker 1: Look.
Speaker 3: All of these things evoke a similar I would say
Speaker 3: shared source. I was a shared group of sources, which
Speaker 3: is they have some shared records in their collection. I'm
Speaker 3: sure Lenny, they both have late Beatles records.
Speaker 1: They both have King the nineties guys, So there's still
Speaker 1: retro happening in the nineties. I do feel like in
Speaker 1: the nineties a lot of groups were going back to
Speaker 1: the bands in the sixties quite a bit.
Speaker 2: Well, Lenny certainly is one of those guys, right.
Speaker 1: Well for sure, And like you said, Billy's going back
Speaker 1: and listening to old bands. I think you know, they're
Speaker 1: all listening to old bands in the nineties in ways
Speaker 1: that I think crime bands are not listening to bands
Speaker 1: in the sixties. So you know, by the way, the
Speaker 1: sixties was really having a moment because the Beatles have
Speaker 1: the anthology CD comes out with Free as a Bird
Speaker 1: and some new material. Austin Powers is in theaters. I
Speaker 1: just feel like even some of those garbage songs, they
Speaker 1: were like redoing can't seem to make you mine. By
Speaker 1: the seeds, you know, garage, Yeah, garage and fuzzy sort
Speaker 1: of like want to be Jimmy. All that stuff was
Speaker 1: really back in the night.
Speaker 3: Well, you're right to make that connection, because besides the
Speaker 3: Jimmy Hendricks chord I, the prior record Gish was very visually,
Speaker 3: certainly and even sonically, there's a lot of psychedelia coming
Speaker 3: into them.
Speaker 2: To play there.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And funny that you mentioned it too, because in
Speaker 3: the solo which I'll play it for you now, Billy
Speaker 3: in the liner notes talks about how part of the
Speaker 3: influence for this was a different sixties song, and I'll
Speaker 3: I'll play you the solo first and then I'll play
Speaker 3: you what he alludes to being where he got some
Speaker 3: of the idea for the solo, which, by the way,
Speaker 3: this guitar solo at one point ranked number ninety seven
Speaker 3: and Guitar World's list of the one hundred greatest guitar
Speaker 3: solos of all Time.
Speaker 2: So, without further ado, let's play it.
Speaker 3: I mean, that's only that's part one of the two
Speaker 3: part solo. But like right there, there are some crazy
Speaker 3: sounds going on.
Speaker 2: So cool.
Speaker 3: So reading from the liner notes in the twenty eleven
Speaker 3: to share this record, Billy says, quote the solo is
Speaker 3: uncorked down from the gentle glades of Itchi Coop Park.
Speaker 3: So this is his wink and nudge to those of
Speaker 3: us who know the Small Faces. He's talking about this
Speaker 3: moment from this song. This is Small Faces, Itchy Coop Park,
Speaker 3: nineteen sixty seven. And listen to the sound he's I
Speaker 3: think referring to the flange sound, which at the time
Speaker 3: was unusual.
Speaker 1: This, I mean that had to blow your brain if
Speaker 1: you were listening to that, you know, smoking pot, yeah,
Speaker 1: smoking grass in nineteen sixty seven.
Speaker 3: I still the sound of us a flange is still
Speaker 3: so exciting to me.
Speaker 1: Like the surly run filter. Yeah, you know, like these
Speaker 1: are all These are also of my favorite.
Speaker 3: Things because we love to play the parts that you
Speaker 3: wouldn't notice necessarily in the mix. I've got a few
Speaker 3: of those really delicious things in the guitars, just a
Speaker 3: couple of quick things. I never noticed this until I
Speaker 3: was in the stems. But right after that guitar solo
Speaker 3: a little after, we get this sexy moment, and basically
Speaker 3: what that's doing is it's echoing the let me out.
Speaker 3: So I'll play it in the mix, right around the guitar.
Speaker 1: Let me.
Speaker 3: So that guitar is kind of echoing the let me
Speaker 3: out another little delicious detail that you will forever hear
Speaker 3: when you listen to the song from now on, that
Speaker 3: little like it almost there's another Jimi Hendri's thing by
Speaker 3: the way that sounds like the beginning of Purple Haze.
Speaker 3: I think, yeah, so those are just some really fun
Speaker 3: guitar sounds. Again, they spent many, many hours coming up
Speaker 3: with different sounds and tracking layers and layers of guitars, layers,
Speaker 3: layers and layers.
Speaker 1: Would you say were the number of layers? There was
Speaker 1: like sixty layers.
Speaker 3: Well, they're up to forty on some song. I don't
Speaker 3: know how many were on this song, but I hear
Speaker 3: lots and lots.
Speaker 1: Of Obviously, it would not be Smashing Pumpkins without the
Speaker 1: vocals of a certain Billy.
Speaker 2: Corgan William Patrick Corgan.
Speaker 1: What can you play us from Billy's vocals that will
Speaker 1: ignite and excite.
Speaker 2: This Let's start from the top, freak.
Speaker 1: O, giv him, doesn't matter what you buy, Lead him
Speaker 1: now what's going on there? Because I think what I
Speaker 1: hear is, you know there's one layer where it's just
Speaker 1: him singing it, yeah, kind of like this and the
Speaker 1: like it's just whispers, right.
Speaker 3: That could be, that could be. I don't have it separated,
Speaker 3: but I'm hearing what you're hearing. There are definitely some layers.
Speaker 1: There's some layering going on, and he.
Speaker 3: Talks about how he likes like Ozzy's doubling technique has
Speaker 3: a very distinct That was.
Speaker 1: Gonna be my question, like, because even if he's not
Speaker 1: copying somebody, there's obviously like sort of like an approach
Speaker 1: of a previous artist who he's like, Oh, let's let's
Speaker 1: do it in that style.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And doubling is definitely a common thing across the board.
Speaker 3: But I think he specifically liked the way that the
Speaker 3: Ozzie vocals were doubled. And I think I hear some
Speaker 3: of that in there.
Speaker 1: Mental wounds, not.
Speaker 2: Like a bit shame I'm going after on a crazy tray.
Speaker 1: So Billy likes Ozzy and Jimmy. He likes he likes Jimmy, Ozzy,
Speaker 1: Jimmy and Billy.
Speaker 3: And you can hear him like his singing style is.
Speaker 3: Of course, he's got kind of two modes. I don't
Speaker 3: think I think he would agree with my assessment that
Speaker 3: he's not necessarily a technical singer, as he said, as
Speaker 3: I mentioned earlier, he's not.
Speaker 1: Chris now to him, but that I said, you're probably
Speaker 1: dead to him. Honestly, let's keep going.
Speaker 2: Let's assume that.
Speaker 1: But yeah, you're right, there's another that's like the sort
Speaker 1: of like verse Billy and then there's the chorus.
Speaker 3: But who goes a loud Yeah, like that was a
Speaker 3: perfect imitation. Billy's singing style is I think perfect for
Speaker 3: this band, not Chris Cornell. It is probably a good
Speaker 3: thing that he has, like an imperfect voice, like it's
Speaker 3: he is straining and he's breathy, and these are characteristics
Speaker 3: of his personality and it works.
Speaker 2: It works for the band.
Speaker 3: It's one of those things where if you've got the
Speaker 3: most technically proficient, amazing singer.
Speaker 2: We always use Shaka Khan as an example.
Speaker 3: Chaka Khan and Smashing Pumpkins would be a completely different band.
Speaker 2: It wouldn't have the personality of Billy.
Speaker 1: Corgan, Billy Corgan, Anthony Keatus like some of these people,
Speaker 1: well Anthony Keats in particular. I feel like anybody can
Speaker 1: sing pretty much, but that's sort of what makes him
Speaker 1: endearing to the.
Speaker 2: Daring is a good word.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's very approachable, Like this isn't something we couldn't
Speaker 3: all do ourselves.
Speaker 1: But that's when we're billy vocals. This is fun.
Speaker 2: Well, here's that chorus we were talking about.
Speaker 1: Else.
Speaker 2: It's a very distinctive sing.
Speaker 1: I like how you went like minor there, like you know,
Speaker 1: the harmonizing, Yeah, you know, definitely gave you that sort
Speaker 1: of like that, that that fun and dark appeal.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, and there's layering. You can tell that there's
Speaker 3: a low octave and a high octave he's doing in there.
Speaker 1: I love the way it all comes together.
Speaker 3: It all comes together. This is that's that's the magic
Speaker 3: of music like this. When you hear a vocal isolated
Speaker 3: like that, you're like, I'm not sure what this is
Speaker 3: attached to, but it works with those major guitars and
Speaker 3: jimmy and drums. This is a perfect match of all
Speaker 3: these sounds. Look, let me play for you. This is
Speaker 3: one of my favorite lines that probably hooked me into
Speaker 3: the song because in the moment it was happening. And then,
Speaker 3: as I mentioned later on in life, this like battle
Speaker 3: for the gatekeepers versus me, Like the gatekeepers aren't accepting me,
Speaker 3: what's going on?
Speaker 2: This is the line you come alive for the big fat.
Speaker 1: By the way, hipster's was not it doesn't mean what
Speaker 1: it means today. Like I feel like post two thousand
Speaker 1: and three electro clash, like hipster became ironically so big
Speaker 1: of a question thing like that you I wanted to
Speaker 1: be and you know, but I think by the nineties,
Speaker 1: I feel like hipster was definitely pretty much uniformly Padora.
Speaker 3: Well, it's funny you said that too, because the word
Speaker 3: hipster to me, I first heard around this time when
Speaker 3: I visited my friend at University of Chicago, who himself
Speaker 3: was telling me about how the scene in that area was,
Speaker 3: like there's a suppressive scene. There's a band called Urge Overkill,
Speaker 3: one of my favorites, and they were the absolute cool kids.
Speaker 3: And as you as fans of music of that era
Speaker 3: may remember, Liz Fair did her exile on Guyville album
Speaker 3: about the hipsters of Chicago, and my understanding from the
Speaker 3: inside was that Urge Overkill was part of this group
Speaker 3: that she was railing against on this album, and the
Speaker 3: word hipster came into my vocabulary in Chicago. So it's
Speaker 3: just interesting to like listen back and be like, you're
Speaker 3: right in nineteen ninety one, who hipster.
Speaker 1: Words don't mean the same as it would have meant
Speaker 1: in two thousand and five or even twenty twenty five.
Speaker 3: It's music scenesters who are opinionated and judge and keeping
Speaker 3: it down.
Speaker 1: There's an orthodox kill and everybody, everybody in the music
Speaker 1: scene is judgy, like these guys think these guys are
Speaker 1: too pommon, these guys think these guys are underground and
Speaker 1: can't sell five records. So everybody's kind of pointing that
Speaker 1: that's spider Man.
Speaker 3: But roc Ha is this real, real lineage of orthodoxy,
Speaker 3: Like like I should say, post sex pistols, punk rocks
Speaker 3: started to codify there are rules you can do this
Speaker 3: but not that, and then there's little scenes like the
Speaker 3: DC scene and the like.
Speaker 1: There's like a million subgenres.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's there's a lot of rules.
Speaker 3: And I think Billy was like, I don't know these
Speaker 3: rules and I'm just making the music.
Speaker 2: That I like.
Speaker 1: Being judge too.
Speaker 2: He's judging about the judgers, though.
Speaker 1: I love your Billy defenses. But the more you talk
Speaker 1: about and the more I'm like, no, He's kind of
Speaker 1: It's like that thing where like you reil against corruption,
Speaker 1: and then you join the system, and then you too
Speaker 1: become corrupt. But that is neither here nor there.
Speaker 2: I hear what you're saying, and you're right. You're giving
Speaker 2: me something to chew on. And that's what I appreciate
Speaker 2: you and our friendship.
Speaker 1: That's why we do the show. I mean, that is
Speaker 1: so important to defining the Smashing Pumpkins sound. Well. Look,
Speaker 1: this band has been super successful. Their songs have been
Speaker 1: used in many movies and TV shows, including the HBO
Speaker 1: series Girls, which used today and the End is the
Speaker 1: Beginning is the End, which was in the I think
Speaker 1: you know essential Batman movie Batman and Robin from nineteen
Speaker 1: ninety three favorite Batman shut Out to Clooney. It was
Speaker 1: also featured in Guitar Hero three, right.
Speaker 3: Which is a big thing because you know, these video
Speaker 3: games introduce a new audience to the band to the song.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but you know, just speaking really quickly about visuals
Speaker 1: in the band, I don't think you can talk about
Speaker 1: Smashing Pumpkins without talking about out their music video.
Speaker 2: Yeah, some great Their music videos are.
Speaker 1: Outstanding, And I just want to call to from roughly
Speaker 1: this period forward. First off nineteen seventy nine, I think
Speaker 1: one of the most beautiful lyrical music videos.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: He was literally like nostalgic. Yeah, it's nostalgic, and they're
Speaker 1: supposed to be driving around like suburban Chicago, and yet
Speaker 1: you can see the Hollywood Hills in the background, so
Speaker 1: like it's that classic thing where people try to shoot
Speaker 1: la for somewhere else. And of course Billy's in the
Speaker 1: backseat of the car and the other members of the
Speaker 1: band show up in various scenes. But I want to
Speaker 1: pay special attention to Tonight Tonight because this video had
Speaker 1: a huge effect on me. Ever, the directors of both
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy nine and Tonight Tonight are Jonathan Daton and
Speaker 1: Valerie Faris. They were on Misters Show with Bob and David,
Speaker 1: one of my favorite shows of all time. They direct,
Speaker 1: you know, amazing material to this day. And also the
Speaker 1: puppetry in Tonight Tonight is by a guy named Wayne White,
Speaker 1: and he is a genius. He won three Emmys for
Speaker 1: his work on both the set and the puppets of
Speaker 1: wait for it, Peewee's Playhouse, which, if you know anything
Speaker 1: about me, there are a few pieces of art of
Speaker 1: any kind that mean more to me than Pee Wee's playoffs.
Speaker 1: I mean, Paul Rubins, rest in peace. You are a sweet,
Speaker 1: sweet soul Tonight tonight. You know, when they saw the
Speaker 1: album art for Melancholy, Daanan and Ferris were like, why
Speaker 1: don't we make this video the way that they made
Speaker 1: early silent films. So that's why it looks the way
Speaker 1: it does. And it's in my top three, And I
Speaker 1: don't even know what else is in my top three,
Speaker 1: but this video is in my top three. And they
Speaker 1: shot at like those early silent films, And if you
Speaker 1: think about those early silent films being made, like these
Speaker 1: are the earliest moving pictures, that's like the beginning of
Speaker 1: the nineteen hundreds. This video comes out at the end
Speaker 1: essentially the nineteen hundreds. So it's a perfect bookend in
Speaker 1: some ways of what pop culture you know, starts off
Speaker 1: as at the beginning of the century and where it
Speaker 1: ends up at the end of the century. It's just
Speaker 1: an amazing video. And I'd even say just as like
Speaker 1: a writer and just as a human, like it's such
Speaker 1: an emotional song, Like you know, it starts silent, it
Speaker 1: flares up and then you've got lyrics like we'll crucify
Speaker 1: the insincere tonight, you know, the indescribable moments of our
Speaker 1: life Tonight, the impossible is possible tonight.
Speaker 3: Like it's such a perfect opener for an album, for
Speaker 3: a double album experience. It's like welcome to it like
Speaker 3: a stage, welcome to our show, welcome to our play.
Speaker 1: A little bit right, It's just one of those songs
Speaker 1: where you know if I'm in the right mood, and
Speaker 1: that song starts off and those soaring strings, just everything
Speaker 1: in that song just worked really right for me. So
Speaker 1: I would be remiss if we did an episode about
Speaker 1: Smashing Pumpkins where I didn't mention that song, those lyrics,
Speaker 1: which I think is just wonderful, like where you believe
Speaker 1: is the legacy of Chera Brock and the Smashing Pumpkins.
Speaker 3: Look for me, Chara Brock was and the Smashing Pumpkins
Speaker 3: and Siamese Dream this record in this moment, it's really
Speaker 3: important to me personally for all the reasons we talked
Speaker 3: about today. It made an impression on me that this
Speaker 3: person wanted to make a sound, even if it wasn't
Speaker 3: the cool sound of the moment. That's a great message
Speaker 3: and I hope that resonates to this day. Obviously the
Speaker 3: landscape has changed in the music industry, but I think
Speaker 3: this idea of like you have an idea in your head,
Speaker 3: but you're not sure if it's cool, that's pretty universal.
Speaker 3: That feels pretty timeless. So when I think about this record,
Speaker 3: there's the sonics of it, which these big guitars always
Speaker 3: been talking about the sound of Billy Corgan, the band itself,
Speaker 3: and their legacy. That's obviously a big part of this song,
Speaker 3: and it's to answer your question, it's legacy. But I
Speaker 3: also think this message is a really interesting one, and
Speaker 3: part of why I wanted to do the song was
Speaker 3: to remind people of the what Billy.
Speaker 2: Was trying to say.
Speaker 3: Look, I think the line beware all those angels with
Speaker 3: their wings glued on, he's just talking about how like
Speaker 3: you think that this is going to change your life
Speaker 3: if you cowtow to what people want you to do,
Speaker 3: but it really won't. Look what's inside and do what's
Speaker 3: true to you. So I think that message still resonates
Speaker 3: for me.
Speaker 1: I like that a lot. Okay, Luxury it Stein for
Speaker 1: one more song. This is the segment where we share
Speaker 1: a deep cut or a hidden gym with You, the
Speaker 1: one Song Nation, and with each Other. Today, I'm going
Speaker 1: to go first and my one more song is SR
Speaker 1: Smoothies Inside of You. This is a song I used
Speaker 1: to play often, and unfortunately I don't think that it's
Speaker 1: one of those songs that's made the transition from vinyl
Speaker 1: and CDs to MP three, so you might have to
Speaker 1: go digging for it. But it's called inside of You
Speaker 1: parentheses OGU twenty forty remix. I found it on YouTube,
Speaker 1: this SR Smoothie inside of You.
Speaker 3: Johnson.
Speaker 1: It's got a very slow build, but trust me, by
Speaker 1: the time you get to the end, you'll be like, oh,
Speaker 1: I know why he chose that song. And it also
Speaker 1: has a lot of cool drum changes that come in
Speaker 1: as well.
Speaker 3: Awesome for my one more song, I'm just thinking about
Speaker 3: Rush and I'm thinking about Billy Corgan in the like
Speaker 3: late seventies, early eighties. I'm just picturing the man listening
Speaker 3: to this song thinking about his alienation, because this song
Speaker 3: moved me when I was a young, alienated.
Speaker 2: Disaffected youth.
Speaker 3: It's subdivisions from Signals nineteen eighty two, classic song about
Speaker 3: being lonely as a kid. Be cool or be cast out?
Speaker 3: You know that message really resonates when you're thirteen.
Speaker 1: Everybody really corgan who also taps into that part of
Speaker 1: our brain will crucify the insincere tonight. As always, if
Speaker 1: you have a song you want to suggest for one
Speaker 1: more song, you can find us on TikTok or Instagram.
Speaker 1: You can find me on TikTok at d'allo riddle or
Speaker 1: on Instagram at Diallo. That's right on Instagram at Dallo.
Speaker 2: And I am Luxury.
Speaker 3: On TikTok that's luxx ry xx and Instagram you can
Speaker 3: find me just the luxx ry part.
Speaker 2: You don't need to add the xx at the end.
Speaker 1: You can also find us on YouTube these days and
Speaker 1: search one song podcast on YouTube and you can see
Speaker 1: our lovely faces as well as like some visual clips
Speaker 1: to go along with.
Speaker 2: These complete episodes.
Speaker 3: Yeah, if you like the podcast, go rewatch it with
Speaker 3: looking at Us this time. Yeah, the entire episodes, And
Speaker 3: if you've made it this far, I think that means
Speaker 3: you like the podcast, So please do not forget to
Speaker 3: give us five stars, leave a review and share with
Speaker 3: someone you think might like the show, because it really
Speaker 3: helps keep it going.
Speaker 1: All right, Luxury help us in.
Speaker 3: This thing, well, I'm producer, DJ and songwriter and music
Speaker 3: cologist Luxury.
Speaker 1: And I'm active writer to writers sometimes DJ d'allow.
Speaker 2: And this is one song I'll see you next time.
Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Jonasanti, with engineering from Marcus Ham.
Speaker 1: Additional production support from Casey Simonson and Abou Kamara. The
Speaker 1: show is executive produced by Kevin Hart, Mike Steine, Bryan Smiley,
Speaker 1: Eric Eddings, Eric Wild, and Leslie want