WEBVTT - Introducing One Song: The Smashing Pumpkins "Cherub Rock" 0:00:15.516 --> 0:00:23.756 Pushkin Luxury. Today's song is from one of the greatest 0:00:23.796 --> 0:00:26.436 bands in alternative rock history and one of the best 0:00:26.436 --> 0:00:27.516 albums of the nineteen nineties. 0:00:27.516 --> 0:00:28.156 That's right, t'alla. 0:00:28.156 --> 0:00:31.156 And if you've seen this band perform live recently, chances 0:00:31.156 --> 0:00:33.676 are they close their set with this epic rock anthem. 0:00:33.756 --> 0:00:36.876 That's right. It's one song, and that song is Chair 0:00:36.916 --> 0:00:56.396 Up Rock by the Smashing Pumpkins. I'm actor, writer, director, 0:00:56.436 --> 0:00:58.396 and sometimes DJ Diallo Riddle. 0:00:58.196 --> 0:01:02.196 And I'm producer, DJ, songwriter and musicologist Luxury aka the 0:01:02.196 --> 0:01:03.076 guy who Whispers and. 0:01:04.196 --> 0:01:04.796 On the Internet. 0:01:05.036 --> 0:01:08.196 So hey, we're going back. We're putting on our flannel shirts. 0:01:08.596 --> 0:01:13.236 We are watching Seinfeld in real time. It is the nineties, 0:01:13.276 --> 0:01:16.236 and I think we have to just embrace our alternative 0:01:16.756 --> 0:01:20.156 rock IIDs, that's right. This is the episode where we're 0:01:20.156 --> 0:01:23.836 talking about, isn't it. Yeah, yeah, all eight Yeah, we're 0:01:23.836 --> 0:01:26.476 talking about Smashing Pumpkins. And before we dive into the song, 0:01:26.556 --> 0:01:28.756 let's scale back a bit. I know that the Smashing 0:01:28.796 --> 0:01:32.236 Pumpkins are huge for both of us, but what music 0:01:32.316 --> 0:01:34.956 memories do you have of the Pumpkins and how have 0:01:34.996 --> 0:01:35.756 they influenced you. 0:01:35.836 --> 0:01:37.196 I just want to say this is one of these 0:01:37.236 --> 0:01:39.436 bands that it was a moment in time that really 0:01:39.516 --> 0:01:41.556 did a lot of like I was gonna say damage 0:01:41.596 --> 0:01:44.716 to my psyche, but like it's just impacted me greatly. 0:01:44.796 --> 0:01:48.036 The sound, the lyrics, everything about them was really important. 0:01:48.276 --> 0:01:50.396 I'll never forget the first time I heard them. I 0:01:50.436 --> 0:01:53.356 was a proud member of the sub Pop Singles Club, 0:01:53.956 --> 0:01:56.516 which was the record label Subpop that you know Nirvana 0:01:56.516 --> 0:01:58.796 and mud Honey. Yeah, and I literally submobed a. 0:01:58.836 --> 0:02:01.756 Maker of T shirts worn by middle aged Dan exactly 0:02:01.796 --> 0:02:02.876 the airport exactly. 0:02:02.956 --> 0:02:04.436 Well at the time, you'd get like a seven in 0:02:04.516 --> 0:02:06.636 single every month and get in the mail, and that's 0:02:06.676 --> 0:02:09.916 what I got. And Tristessa came to send nineteen ninety. 0:02:09.956 --> 0:02:13.476 It was their first single, and I loved it immediately. 0:02:13.796 --> 0:02:14.956 Let me play a little bit. This is what I 0:02:14.956 --> 0:02:22.276 would have heard Little Little Luxury in nineteen ninety. 0:02:26.196 --> 0:02:28.796 That's a very cool song. You've got that. Yeah, Little 0:02:29.116 --> 0:02:31.116 were like, oh, I like this, I like this. 0:02:31.116 --> 0:02:33.236 This was like I'm a drummer in this moment, and 0:02:33.236 --> 0:02:36.316 I'm a drummer in my college band, and that's Jimmy 0:02:36.396 --> 0:02:39.396 Chamberlain on drums, and I'm immediately a huge fan of 0:02:39.476 --> 0:02:41.876 Jimmy Chamberlain. The way he opens that song and is 0:02:42.436 --> 0:02:44.876 We're going to get into Jimmy Chamberlain later the episode, 0:02:44.916 --> 0:02:47.196 but he's a very special musical influence. 0:02:47.356 --> 0:02:50.036 Usually when you talk Smashing Pumpkins, it's a lot about 0:02:50.076 --> 0:02:52.636 Billy Corgan, but we're going to talk about all these 0:02:52.676 --> 0:02:53.796 wonderful members in the group. 0:02:54.076 --> 0:02:55.636 Yeah, you're also a big special I have a. 0:02:55.596 --> 0:02:58.476 Fan smash, a Puckus fan. When you said, hey, let'sen 0:02:58.476 --> 0:03:02.036 just match your mother's episode, I was like, yes, please listen. 0:03:02.116 --> 0:03:05.116 Simeon's Dream is the is one of those CDs that 0:03:05.196 --> 0:03:07.236 you saw in everybody's dorm room if you were a 0:03:07.276 --> 0:03:09.516 college kid in the nineties. I was there. I saw 0:03:09.556 --> 0:03:12.156 those CDs. I was more of a melancholy fan, full 0:03:12.156 --> 0:03:14.716 of full disclosure. I saw the album art and I 0:03:14.756 --> 0:03:18.156 was like, oh, you know, I know I like today. 0:03:18.396 --> 0:03:20.556 You know that was my song off of Siamese Dream. 0:03:20.596 --> 0:03:22.396 But I was like, let me check out more from 0:03:22.396 --> 0:03:25.196 this band. And my favorite Smashing Pumpkin story is that 0:03:25.396 --> 0:03:29.476 I was driving down Sunset Boulevard, like right after I graduated, 0:03:29.956 --> 0:03:32.996 and the Virgin Megastore used to sit on the corner 0:03:33.556 --> 0:03:37.116 of Crescent Heights and Sunset. It's funny how much space. 0:03:37.196 --> 0:03:38.796 CD stores used to take it right. Oh. 0:03:38.796 --> 0:03:40.636 I used to the Virgin Megastore in New York. That 0:03:40.676 --> 0:03:43.116 was a big destination, the stations. 0:03:43.156 --> 0:03:45.916 You could listen to CDs all day. But I'll never forget. 0:03:45.956 --> 0:03:47.076 They had blocked off the road and I was like, 0:03:47.116 --> 0:03:49.156 what's going on here? And I saw a band setting 0:03:49.236 --> 0:03:51.556 up on the rooftop. No way, and I seriously I 0:03:51.636 --> 0:03:55.076 parked on like Laurel, right next to the Laugh Factory, 0:03:55.316 --> 0:03:57.836 and I walked over and I was like, oh my gosh, 0:03:57.836 --> 0:03:59.876 it's smashing pumps is on the roof of the Virgin 0:03:59.876 --> 0:04:03.116 Megastore and they played this whole big concert with songs 0:04:03.116 --> 0:04:06.236 from Siamese Dream and Melancholy, and I think a door 0:04:06.276 --> 0:04:10.116 had just come out, and like the streets. We filled 0:04:10.116 --> 0:04:12.116 the streets of that big corner. If you've ever been 0:04:12.116 --> 0:04:13.476 in LA that's like a really big corner. 0:04:13.556 --> 0:04:15.636 It was this like a beatles like YouTube things. 0:04:15.996 --> 0:04:18.196 I don't know how spontaneous it was. Maybe the word 0:04:18.236 --> 0:04:20.876 had gotten out, like it was a pretty huge crowd 0:04:20.876 --> 0:04:23.756 of people, but like the sun was going down over 0:04:23.796 --> 0:04:26.796 the hills and like Billy and James and Jimmy and 0:04:26.876 --> 0:04:31.156 Dark and it was that was when I realized, you 0:04:31.196 --> 0:04:34.636 know what, my my fandom of this band is above 0:04:34.796 --> 0:04:35.516 some other bands. 0:04:35.556 --> 0:04:38.236 Yeah, yeah, yeah, they're real special band. Agree, that's so cool. 0:04:38.556 --> 0:04:40.356 Well, I mean just leaping ahead a little bit, like 0:04:40.396 --> 0:04:43.796 when I started making music myself. So many influences, you know. 0:04:43.836 --> 0:04:45.836 At the time, there were a handful of things that 0:04:45.916 --> 0:04:47.476 like I knew I was trying to do, and some 0:04:47.516 --> 0:04:49.276 things that later on I'm like, oh, I was thinking 0:04:49.276 --> 0:04:52.076 about this band. Smashing Pupkins were definitely front and center 0:04:52.156 --> 0:04:54.516 for me. There was something about the sound being this 0:04:54.636 --> 0:04:58.716 combination of epic rock, bomb bass frankly, and then like 0:04:59.676 --> 0:05:03.836 the bombas is a big the no and then I 0:05:03.876 --> 0:05:06.716 love the unabashedness. It's like, let's put bombast in this. 0:05:06.716 --> 0:05:10.196 That's what he wants on a bash at bomb bass. 0:05:10.236 --> 0:05:12.796 He It's a goal of his at a time when 0:05:12.796 --> 0:05:16.236 that was not what people it was. It had fallen 0:05:16.276 --> 0:05:19.236 from favor and it was it was an unusual choice. 0:05:19.316 --> 0:05:20.956 We're going to talk about that a little bit later. 0:05:21.076 --> 0:05:22.596 But I was also kind of wanting to do a 0:05:22.636 --> 0:05:25.676 similar thing and San Francisco early, you know, two thousands, 0:05:25.676 --> 0:05:26.996 where I was like, you know, there's a lot of 0:05:27.036 --> 0:05:30.076 indie stuff that was broken beat was happening and kind 0:05:30.116 --> 0:05:31.636 of obscure, and I was like, no, I want to 0:05:31.676 --> 0:05:33.356 like swing for the fences and have these. 0:05:33.196 --> 0:05:36.396 Big guitar crunchy rips and stuff like that. 0:05:36.956 --> 0:05:39.076 And I kind of had a similar experience where like 0:05:39.196 --> 0:05:41.836 my scene didn't really embrace me. San Francisco in the 0:05:41.836 --> 0:05:46.476 early two thousands was not super kind to lecture embracing. Well, 0:05:46.556 --> 0:05:48.516 you know, we can get into some theories I have, 0:05:48.636 --> 0:05:53.036 but I definitely felt some identification with Billy's kind of sensibility. 0:05:53.756 --> 0:05:55.836 And part of why I wanted to do this song 0:05:56.076 --> 0:05:58.756 is because it is about this exact phenomenon of like 0:05:59.236 --> 0:06:02.276 the gatekeepers in the indie rock community and the gatekeepers 0:06:02.276 --> 0:06:05.276 on MTV, and his feeling of like screw you guys, 0:06:05.316 --> 0:06:07.156 Like this is the music that's real to me and 0:06:07.196 --> 0:06:10.236 that's coming naturally and that I want to make even 0:06:10.276 --> 0:06:11.996 if it doesn't seem cool to you guys. 0:06:12.276 --> 0:06:13.756 Yeah, I love that. I love that he was going 0:06:13.756 --> 0:06:16.076 at the gate keepers, by the way, they were on Virgin. Yes, 0:06:16.396 --> 0:06:20.076 a very first record industry job after college. You know, 0:06:20.116 --> 0:06:22.396 my first record label job was at La Face, my 0:06:22.516 --> 0:06:24.436 second one was at Virgin. You know, this is right 0:06:24.476 --> 0:06:27.996 after college, and so I actually have a ton of 0:06:28.516 --> 0:06:30.356 pristine smashing pumpkins. 0:06:30.556 --> 0:06:31.116 Do you really? 0:06:31.276 --> 0:06:34.676 I really do? Like, you know, like the so Melancholy 0:06:34.796 --> 0:06:38.436 was a double CD, so I have like the four vinyl? 0:06:38.676 --> 0:06:43.636 Are you serious? I was again drooling with ND Smashing. 0:06:44.356 --> 0:06:46.876 As a double vinyl because as it was a single CD, 0:06:47.116 --> 0:06:50.436 but they really wanted that one and eighty gram you 0:06:50.476 --> 0:06:51.236 know how much vinyl. 0:06:51.356 --> 0:06:53.996 This is like sort of an obscure, kind of an anecdote, 0:06:53.996 --> 0:06:56.236 but like the moment this record came out was the 0:06:56.276 --> 0:06:58.676 moment I had held held off for years on CDs. 0:06:58.716 --> 0:07:01.356 I was like, what a garbage technology? Remember long boxes 0:07:01.396 --> 0:07:03.516 and all that. I hated it, But in this moment, 0:07:03.636 --> 0:07:05.316 I was like I was at college and I was like, 0:07:05.356 --> 0:07:08.116 it's it's I didn't have enough room to always be 0:07:08.236 --> 0:07:12.476 carding around and like I made the conversion with Siamese 0:07:12.556 --> 0:07:15.236 Dream Yes, And I regret it to this day that 0:07:15.276 --> 0:07:17.956 I don't actually have it on vinyl and I had 0:07:17.996 --> 0:07:20.036 Gish on vinyl. A big regret in my life is 0:07:20.076 --> 0:07:22.156 where did that vinyl go? The fact that you have 0:07:22.236 --> 0:07:24.836 all this vinyl, I'm very very. 0:07:24.436 --> 0:07:26.996 Forget that we ever discussed this, and maybe there'll be 0:07:26.996 --> 0:07:27.916 something for you come toss. 0:07:28.556 --> 0:07:29.636 I do have birthday coming up. 0:07:29.676 --> 0:07:33.916 It's true, but listen. Yeah, Smashic Pumpkins is literally one 0:07:33.916 --> 0:07:35.756 of the most successful rock bands of all time. They've 0:07:35.796 --> 0:07:39.676 sold thirty million albums. This song is off of Siamese Dream. 0:07:39.996 --> 0:07:44.476 It went four times platinum and Melancholy Infinite Sadness and 0:07:44.596 --> 0:07:47.956 actually Diamonds it sold ten million or more. 0:07:48.036 --> 0:07:50.996 Copirazy. That doesn't happen anymore, No, it really doesn't. 0:07:51.156 --> 0:07:52.956 It was literally like the second they came up with 0:07:52.996 --> 0:07:53.916 that certification. 0:07:54.476 --> 0:07:55.636 Here used it again. 0:07:55.756 --> 0:07:59.276 Yeah, it's like the ultimate humorous but people used to 0:07:59.316 --> 0:08:02.796 pay for art. Smashing Pumpkins has had one number one hit, 0:08:03.276 --> 0:08:06.876 seven top ten hits. They've been nominated for eleven Grammys 0:08:06.916 --> 0:08:09.036 and they won too. They won nineteen ninety seven for 0:08:09.156 --> 0:08:12.356 Bullet with Butterfly Wings great song, and they won in 0:08:12.436 --> 0:08:14.556 nineteen ninety eight for the End Is the Beginning? Is 0:08:14.596 --> 0:08:17.156 the end? I don't know the choice? 0:08:17.196 --> 0:08:26.196 Yeah, yeah, visual choice, bouncy. 0:08:26.396 --> 0:08:28.076 That sounds like they became friends with the Grammys. 0:08:28.156 --> 0:08:29.756 Yeah, people like you've been screwing us for years. 0:08:29.796 --> 0:08:31.796 Hey, what song do you want to be nominated for? 0:08:31.836 --> 0:08:34.196 You gotta give us one. Just pick a song. We'll 0:08:34.196 --> 0:08:35.716 take it. Song, We'll take it homey. 0:08:35.436 --> 0:08:37.476 And will win Best Hard Rock perform. 0:08:37.236 --> 0:08:39.236 It's a fine song, but it's not like one that 0:08:39.516 --> 0:08:40.396 is in the pantheon. 0:08:41.076 --> 0:08:43.876 And by the way, all the success very much deserved 0:08:43.876 --> 0:08:46.196 by the Pumpkins. I mean, if you think about their hits, 0:08:46.916 --> 0:08:51.756 it's nineteen seventy nine, Bullet with butterfly Wings, Disarm Today, 0:08:52.316 --> 0:08:54.996 my own personal favorite, Tonight Tonight. And when we were 0:08:55.036 --> 0:08:57.036 preparing this episode, we had a listen. We had a 0:08:57.076 --> 0:09:01.516 vigorous back and forth about which of these songs that 0:09:01.596 --> 0:09:03.516 we would do. But you know, in some cases we 0:09:03.516 --> 0:09:06.916 didn't have the stems. Hello Tonight, Tonight could not find 0:09:06.956 --> 0:09:10.476 you anywhere. In other cases, it isn't necessarily the song 0:09:10.516 --> 0:09:13.916 that we wanted to discuss. I personally love nineteen seventy nine. 0:09:13.956 --> 0:09:16.316 I love that song too, Yes your Poets and I'm 0:09:16.316 --> 0:09:16.916 meant yeah. 0:09:16.956 --> 0:09:18.956 And this is one of the things we discussed. It's 0:09:18.956 --> 0:09:23.476 not the most smashing pumpkinny. It's it's kind of a 0:09:23.476 --> 0:09:27.116 little outlier. That's a little bit of an outlier. Latrie 0:09:27.116 --> 0:09:29.956 help us understand what led to that wonderfully distinct smashing 0:09:29.996 --> 0:09:30.676 pumpkin sound. 0:09:30.876 --> 0:09:33.436 A really unique thing about Billy Corgan in this moment 0:09:33.556 --> 0:09:35.476 in nineteen ninety three, when when this record is being 0:09:35.476 --> 0:09:38.036 made and when this song comes out, is that he's 0:09:38.076 --> 0:09:42.116 bringing his heavy metal background to indie rock, to a 0:09:42.156 --> 0:09:46.996 post Nirvana world where heavy metal judas Priest and accept 0:09:47.076 --> 0:09:50.516 and like all Rainbow, all of these seventies hard rock 0:09:50.556 --> 0:09:53.156 bands and Queen and Boston, all of these bands he's 0:09:53.716 --> 0:09:57.516 actually aiming to emulate. He is aiming to bring back 0:09:57.556 --> 0:10:01.236 their bomb bass and they are huge rock guitar walls 0:10:01.276 --> 0:10:05.116 of sound and epic noss and the voice. All of 0:10:05.156 --> 0:10:07.756 it is a conscious effort to bring something that had 0:10:07.796 --> 0:10:09.636 been kind of lost in the eighties. It's like a 0:10:09.676 --> 0:10:12.636 throwback to the seventies and he's like, the world is 0:10:12.676 --> 0:10:15.356 ready to hear this again. And it's a real risk 0:10:15.476 --> 0:10:18.316 because in indie rock circles, like in this Nirvana world 0:10:18.356 --> 0:10:21.156 where there's pavement in Sebado and Sonic Youth, that is 0:10:21.276 --> 0:10:22.156 not cool. 0:10:22.116 --> 0:10:24.196 Right, And I mean, like, I think you kind of 0:10:24.236 --> 0:10:25.636 get into what I was going to ask, which is 0:10:25.916 --> 0:10:28.916 what makes his sound different from somebody like Soundgarden. 0:10:29.036 --> 0:10:31.716 Yeah, And that's a great question because I think in 0:10:31.796 --> 0:10:34.436 Billy's mind he was thinking the same thing. I think 0:10:34.516 --> 0:10:37.876 Billy had something about Soundgarden as a band in his 0:10:37.916 --> 0:10:40.356 mind that he was competitive with them and wondering why 0:10:40.436 --> 0:10:42.476 they got kind of more indie cred and by the way, 0:10:42.676 --> 0:10:45.356 subpop band originally, then they got signed to A and M. 0:10:45.636 --> 0:10:48.236 But in his mind he was wondering the same thing, 0:10:48.276 --> 0:10:51.476 how come I can't do what Soundgarden does. One obviously 0:10:51.556 --> 0:10:53.956 distinction is that he doesn't have Chris Cornell's voice, so 0:10:53.996 --> 0:10:56.396 he can't sing like Chris Cornell did. But I think 0:10:56.396 --> 0:10:58.436 another thing that I thought about this a lot. I 0:10:58.476 --> 0:11:00.836 think Soundgarden was able to inject a little bit of 0:11:00.876 --> 0:11:15.676 a wink and a nudge of irony, which was a 0:11:15.676 --> 0:11:18.636 big thing culturally in the early nineties. Sure absolutely, and 0:11:19.036 --> 0:11:20.716 Kirk Cobain would do the same thing when they would 0:11:20.716 --> 0:11:22.796 take a whailing guitar solo. It was a little bit 0:11:22.836 --> 0:11:25.316 of a wink, wink, nudge nudge. When Billy Corgan takes 0:11:25.316 --> 0:11:28.436 a guitar solo, there's no it's without guile. It's like 0:11:28.516 --> 0:11:30.676 I'm swinging for the fences. I am Brian May two 0:11:30.716 --> 0:11:33.596 point zero, I'm Richie Blackmore two point zero, And I 0:11:33.596 --> 0:11:35.236 think to a lot of people in that moment in 0:11:35.276 --> 0:11:37.556 the community, it's like, bro, that's just not cool. 0:11:37.836 --> 0:11:39.436 You know what's interesting about what you just said is 0:11:39.436 --> 0:11:43.916 I'm thinking about a song like today where the lyrics 0:11:43.916 --> 0:11:46.476 are really positive, but he's clearly in a bad place. 0:11:46.556 --> 0:11:50.996 Yeah, you know, and that is a sarcastic song actually, So. 0:11:50.956 --> 0:11:53.836 That actually is some yeah, right, irony, sarcas, whatever you 0:11:53.836 --> 0:12:09.916 want to call it. So he wasn't anti irony, but 0:12:09.956 --> 0:12:12.356 I do get where like he wasn't ironic in the 0:12:12.396 --> 0:12:15.196 way that some of the other bands of this era are. 0:12:15.476 --> 0:12:17.636 It's so perfect that you brought that song up because 0:12:17.676 --> 0:12:21.116 Billy tells the story about how that song was actually 0:12:21.116 --> 0:12:24.276 a turning point in his inner turmoil. And again, this song, 0:12:24.356 --> 0:12:26.596 Terra barc We're gonna get very deep into it. It 0:12:26.716 --> 0:12:29.596 is about this what I just described, his feelings towards 0:12:29.596 --> 0:12:33.236 the hipster community, hipster's unite, as he sings, But that 0:12:33.356 --> 0:12:34.996 was one of the last songs he actually wrote for 0:12:35.036 --> 0:12:37.516 the album. He was still wrestling with it earlier in 0:12:37.556 --> 0:12:40.596 the songwriting process for Siamese Dream. He writes today, and 0:12:40.676 --> 0:12:43.556 he says how that was a moment that he was 0:12:43.596 --> 0:12:47.396 able to reconcile these opposing forces of coolness and uncoolness 0:12:47.756 --> 0:12:50.836 that he was feeling about his songwriting he was recognizing 0:12:51.036 --> 0:12:54.436 that it just wasn't being accepted in Chicago's you Know, 0:12:54.556 --> 0:12:58.316 Hipster Worlds and MTV's Hipster one hundred and twenty minutes 0:12:58.356 --> 0:13:01.476 whatever they were being played. But he felt some disrespect 0:13:01.516 --> 0:13:03.676 for in his way. But he says about found a 0:13:03.756 --> 0:13:06.716 quote about the song today. He felt that it captured 0:13:06.756 --> 0:13:09.636 his essence as these are his words a core boy 0:13:09.636 --> 0:13:12.796 from fucking Chicago. He goes, I reached a point where 0:13:12.796 --> 0:13:14.916 there was a direct conflict between what I was trying 0:13:14.956 --> 0:13:17.436 to be and who I really was. I was trying 0:13:17.436 --> 0:13:20.556 to be this person who is cool, eternally rocking, and 0:13:20.636 --> 0:13:23.716 yet I was writing this dumb song Like today, I'd 0:13:23.716 --> 0:13:25.596 reached a fork in the road. Do I throw this 0:13:25.676 --> 0:13:28.316 in the trash and try and pursue some kind of 0:13:28.636 --> 0:13:32.276 ideal that I can't live up to, or just accept 0:13:32.276 --> 0:13:34.036 who I am? And in this song he does that, 0:13:34.316 --> 0:13:37.596 and interestingly, to your point, he finds some irony that 0:13:37.636 --> 0:13:40.636 had been maybe previously lacking from the rest of his work. 0:13:40.676 --> 0:13:42.796 It starts to be kind of more of a balance 0:13:43.076 --> 0:13:46.636 with the bomb Bast, which is unabash hit bomb Bast 0:13:46.916 --> 0:13:50.556 and a little bit of a self awareness maybe seeping 0:13:50.596 --> 0:13:52.876 in about how it is perceived and he doesn't care. 0:13:52.916 --> 0:13:55.396 He's starting to just not care. He's letting go of 0:13:55.516 --> 0:13:57.316 caring what the gatekeepers think. 0:13:57.836 --> 0:13:59.356 If it's possible, I want to take a step back 0:13:59.396 --> 0:14:01.716 and talk about the founding of the group. Billy Co 0:14:01.836 --> 0:14:05.236 founds the band in nineteen eighty eight in Chicago with 0:14:05.276 --> 0:14:08.956 guitarist James Zha. Not too long after that, they recruit 0:14:08.996 --> 0:14:12.036 a drummer and a bassis. Let me ask you, as 0:14:12.116 --> 0:14:14.596 an expert of the band, what's the dynamic of the 0:14:14.596 --> 0:14:16.036 band in these early days. 0:14:17.036 --> 0:14:19.196 So I think in the early days you have to 0:14:19.236 --> 0:14:22.836 understand that the band Smashing Pumpkins in Billy's mind has 0:14:22.876 --> 0:14:25.236 always been kind of an entity that is a band. 0:14:25.516 --> 0:14:28.196 But to the rest of the world, it mostly kind 0:14:28.196 --> 0:14:30.596 of seems like Billy and whoever is around, because there 0:14:30.596 --> 0:14:33.116 are shifting members of the band. We have Darcy on 0:14:33.196 --> 0:14:36.036 bass and then she's gone in Melissa Aftermarf from Whole 0:14:36.076 --> 0:14:39.636 replaces or et cetera. And Jimmy Chamberlain is in the 0:14:39.636 --> 0:14:42.756 band and then he is gone and then he comes back. 0:14:42.796 --> 0:14:45.436 I will say, you know, this is like during a 0:14:45.476 --> 0:14:48.516 period where you know, I'm listening to music constantly and 0:14:48.196 --> 0:14:51.516 I know what bands look like like nowadays, Like I'll 0:14:51.516 --> 0:14:53.436 hear about a rapper for a full year before I 0:14:53.516 --> 0:14:57.036 ever find out, Oh that's losif hurt, Like it'll take 0:14:57.036 --> 0:15:00.636 me some time. But back then I knew the Smashing Pumpkins. 0:15:00.876 --> 0:15:02.516 It is ironic. I thought they were like one of 0:15:02.516 --> 0:15:04.956 the most diverse bands of the period, Like, you know, 0:15:04.996 --> 0:15:08.076 you've got an Asian guy, yeah, and a cool you 0:15:08.116 --> 0:15:11.316 know girl, Like they just seem like a more of 0:15:11.356 --> 0:15:13.716 a mix of people than just like five or six 0:15:13.756 --> 0:15:14.236 white dudes. 0:15:14.556 --> 0:15:17.436 My speculation I've listened to There's a lot of Billy 0:15:17.476 --> 0:15:20.396 Corgan interview footage out there, and there's a lot he 0:15:20.436 --> 0:15:22.276 talks about this stuff a lot over the years, and 0:15:22.316 --> 0:15:24.396 I think there's some things that are consistent in some 0:15:24.476 --> 0:15:27.276 things that change. So this is me speculating from what 0:15:27.316 --> 0:15:30.236 I pieced together. I think he's always wanted a tribe 0:15:30.556 --> 0:15:33.276 a home because he came from a broken home. His 0:15:33.316 --> 0:15:35.036 parents were divorced when he was three, and he was 0:15:35.036 --> 0:15:37.556 shounted off to his great grandmother and then his grandmother. 0:15:37.916 --> 0:15:40.636 His dad got remarried, but his stepmother was abusive and 0:15:40.716 --> 0:15:43.636 his mother was not well, so he couldn't really live 0:15:43.676 --> 0:15:48.356 with her. He has this looking for a home miss 0:15:48.396 --> 0:15:51.636 in his childhood that really lasts his entire life until 0:15:51.756 --> 0:15:54.076 recent days, where he's happily married now, so everything ended well. 0:15:54.116 --> 0:15:56.516 But in the band days, it seems like he's trying 0:15:56.556 --> 0:15:59.316 to put together a new family, but it's difficult for 0:15:59.396 --> 0:16:02.396 him to hold on to them, and he's also very controlling, 0:16:02.756 --> 0:16:05.356 so he will record a lot of music and then 0:16:05.716 --> 0:16:08.356 kind of replace parts and we'll be getting into that later, 0:16:08.676 --> 0:16:11.956 which has the effect of pushing away these family members. 0:16:11.956 --> 0:16:14.756 So the bandness, I think, feels like a very carefully 0:16:14.756 --> 0:16:17.196 cultivated thing to build a tribe, to build a family, 0:16:17.196 --> 0:16:19.556 to be part of something. But just like the scene 0:16:19.556 --> 0:16:21.876 at large that rejects him the band, he has this 0:16:21.916 --> 0:16:25.316 push pull and yeah, he's back to being alone within 0:16:25.396 --> 0:16:25.876 the band. 0:16:26.436 --> 0:16:27.396 Not to mention, well, I mean. 0:16:27.396 --> 0:16:30.036 Look good, sugarcoated. He also has a reputation for being 0:16:30.076 --> 0:16:31.196 extremely hard to get along with. 0:16:31.476 --> 0:16:32.756 I mean, but which is the cause in which is 0:16:32.756 --> 0:16:34.636 the effect? Is hard to say that that is true. 0:16:34.636 --> 0:16:36.516 I don't want to push that aside, but you know, 0:16:36.636 --> 0:16:38.516 I have a lot of empathy for him. He has 0:16:38.556 --> 0:16:40.956 such a vision, he has such a sound in mind, 0:16:41.116 --> 0:16:43.796 and he's also coming from such frankly a dark place 0:16:43.836 --> 0:16:46.516 that he's got a lot to express and only he 0:16:46.596 --> 0:16:49.436 knows how to express it. And listen, I can speak 0:16:49.436 --> 0:16:52.956 from personal experience, like without that troubled background. I also 0:16:53.116 --> 0:16:56.316 know that it is tricky sometimes to like navigate between 0:16:56.396 --> 0:16:58.516 like are you my collaborator? Are you the person that's 0:16:58.556 --> 0:17:00.876 executing my vision? If you are, how do I make 0:17:00.916 --> 0:17:01.676 you feel good about it? 0:17:01.716 --> 0:17:02.196 And stay? 0:17:02.676 --> 0:17:06.196 It's really tricky stuff, And the story of Smashing Pumpkins 0:17:06.316 --> 0:17:09.796 is I think very much Billy wanting a family, musicians, 0:17:09.836 --> 0:17:12.196 wanting to be in this tribe, and it being a 0:17:12.196 --> 0:17:14.276 really tricky thing from one album to the next, from 0:17:14.276 --> 0:17:15.116 one year to the next. 0:17:15.476 --> 0:17:17.396 Yeah, I think what you're saying is true, And there's 0:17:17.436 --> 0:17:19.236 a lot there's a lot of quotes out there that 0:17:19.356 --> 0:17:22.556 back up everything you're saying. Billy's quoted in the La 0:17:22.636 --> 0:17:25.796 Times of saying, quote, I don't have the proper indie credentials. 0:17:25.956 --> 0:17:28.556 I didn't play in some seminal band where five people 0:17:28.596 --> 0:17:31.996 bought the record. Yeah, oh man, he says, I wasn't 0:17:31.996 --> 0:17:35.276 a roadie. That kind of rags to Rich's story. And 0:17:35.316 --> 0:17:38.396 I think you actually have a quote too from Rolling Stone. 0:17:38.236 --> 0:17:39.276 This from nineteen ninety three. 0:17:39.916 --> 0:17:41.476 You know, kind of right when the song is coming out, 0:17:41.516 --> 0:17:43.836 I'm like the fugitive running from the one armed indie 0:17:43.876 --> 0:17:47.476 rock community. If I continued on the path I was on. 0:17:47.676 --> 0:17:49.436 In other words, this is this moment where he's making 0:17:49.516 --> 0:17:51.676 this decision. Do I keep on trying to win the 0:17:51.716 --> 0:17:53.916 approval of these people, or do I just do what 0:17:53.956 --> 0:17:56.516 I want to do, which is big, bombastic rock. If 0:17:56.516 --> 0:17:58.156 I continued on the path I was on, which was 0:17:58.156 --> 0:18:01.276 being overly conscious and worried what the indie rock hierarchy 0:18:01.396 --> 0:18:03.156 was going to think of our new album, we were 0:18:03.156 --> 0:18:03.676 going to fail. 0:18:04.356 --> 0:18:07.236 So Billy is a thoughtful. 0:18:06.916 --> 0:18:10.756 Maybe overthinking person, but obviously it goes into the music, 0:18:10.796 --> 0:18:12.436 and it goes into the lyrics, and it goes into 0:18:12.476 --> 0:18:13.636 the song in a really big way. 0:18:14.156 --> 0:18:17.116 For me personally, He's an example of somebody who it's 0:18:17.156 --> 0:18:20.356 almost like Morris and the Smith's like, I love that music. Yeah, 0:18:20.356 --> 0:18:22.956 I don't have to really make my peace with the 0:18:22.996 --> 0:18:24.156 man behind the curtain. 0:18:24.236 --> 0:18:26.676 You don't have to, I think. I Actually it's interesting 0:18:26.716 --> 0:18:28.996 because I've been recently. I just listened to his more 0:18:29.036 --> 0:18:31.356 recent interviews and comparing them to the old stuff, and 0:18:31.356 --> 0:18:34.436 he's come a long way. But there's also some questions 0:18:34.436 --> 0:18:37.676 swirling about his political affiliations, which I haven't quite landed myself. 0:18:37.716 --> 0:18:40.116 You know, we don't need to get into but I 0:18:40.196 --> 0:18:42.396 do think that at the time, what he was dealing 0:18:42.396 --> 0:18:45.796 with was, Look, there's this famous song by Pavement, right, 0:18:45.996 --> 0:18:48.076 we got to talk about the Pavements song day, Let's talk. 0:18:48.236 --> 0:18:50.516 In nineteen ninety four, Pavement puts out a song called 0:18:50.596 --> 0:18:53.436 Range Life, which includes this lyric I'll play it for 0:18:53.476 --> 0:18:55.476 you and then I'll I'll read the lyric in case 0:18:55.476 --> 0:19:01.636 he missed it. Smash's Nature Kids. 0:19:02.636 --> 0:19:07.236 They don't have no function. I don't understand what they 0:19:07.596 --> 0:19:13.996 mean in Rocket Thank you fuck. We should have included 0:19:13.996 --> 0:19:15.116 this in our beef episode. 0:19:15.596 --> 0:19:17.316