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Speaker 1: Pushkin Luxury. Today's song is from one of the greatest

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Speaker 1: bands in alternative rock history and one of the best

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Speaker 1: albums of the nineteen nineties.

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Speaker 2: That's right, t'alla.

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Speaker 3: And if you've seen this band perform live recently, chances

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Speaker 3: are they close their set with this epic rock anthem.

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Speaker 1: That's right. It's one song, and that song is Chair

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Speaker 1: Up Rock by the Smashing Pumpkins. I'm actor, writer, director,

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Speaker 1: and sometimes DJ Diallo Riddle.

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Speaker 3: And I'm producer, DJ, songwriter and musicologist Luxury aka the

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Speaker 3: guy who Whispers and.

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Speaker 2: On the Internet.

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Speaker 1: So hey, we're going back. We're putting on our flannel shirts.

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Speaker 1: We are watching Seinfeld in real time. It is the nineties,

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Speaker 1: and I think we have to just embrace our alternative

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Speaker 1: rock IIDs, that's right. This is the episode where we're

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Speaker 1: talking about, isn't it. Yeah, yeah, all eight Yeah, we're

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Speaker 1: talking about Smashing Pumpkins. And before we dive into the song,

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Speaker 1: let's scale back a bit. I know that the Smashing

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Speaker 1: Pumpkins are huge for both of us, but what music

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Speaker 1: memories do you have of the Pumpkins and how have

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Speaker 1: they influenced you.

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Speaker 3: I just want to say this is one of these

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Speaker 3: bands that it was a moment in time that really

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Speaker 3: did a lot of like I was gonna say damage

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Speaker 3: to my psyche, but like it's just impacted me greatly.

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Speaker 3: The sound, the lyrics, everything about them was really important.

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Speaker 3: I'll never forget the first time I heard them. I

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Speaker 3: was a proud member of the sub Pop Singles Club,

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Speaker 3: which was the record label Subpop that you know Nirvana

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Speaker 3: and mud Honey. Yeah, and I literally submobed a.

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Speaker 1: Maker of T shirts worn by middle aged Dan exactly

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Speaker 1: the airport exactly.

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Speaker 3: Well at the time, you'd get like a seven in

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Speaker 3: single every month and get in the mail, and that's

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Speaker 3: what I got. And Tristessa came to send nineteen ninety.

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Speaker 3: It was their first single, and I loved it immediately.

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Speaker 3: Let me play a little bit. This is what I

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Speaker 3: would have heard Little Little Luxury in nineteen ninety.

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Speaker 1: That's a very cool song. You've got that. Yeah, Little

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Speaker 1: were like, oh, I like this, I like this.

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Speaker 3: This was like I'm a drummer in this moment, and

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Speaker 3: I'm a drummer in my college band, and that's Jimmy

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Speaker 3: Chamberlain on drums, and I'm immediately a huge fan of

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Speaker 3: Jimmy Chamberlain. The way he opens that song and is

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Speaker 3: We're going to get into Jimmy Chamberlain later the episode,

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Speaker 3: but he's a very special musical influence.

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Speaker 1: Usually when you talk Smashing Pumpkins, it's a lot about

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Speaker 1: Billy Corgan, but we're going to talk about all these

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Speaker 1: wonderful members in the group.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you're also a big special I have a.

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Speaker 1: Fan smash, a Puckus fan. When you said, hey, let'sen

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Speaker 1: just match your mother's episode, I was like, yes, please listen.

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Speaker 1: Simeon's Dream is the is one of those CDs that

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Speaker 1: you saw in everybody's dorm room if you were a

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Speaker 1: college kid in the nineties. I was there. I saw

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Speaker 1: those CDs. I was more of a melancholy fan, full

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Speaker 1: of full disclosure. I saw the album art and I

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Speaker 1: was like, oh, you know, I know I like today.

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Speaker 1: You know that was my song off of Siamese Dream.

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Speaker 1: But I was like, let me check out more from

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Speaker 1: this band. And my favorite Smashing Pumpkin story is that

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Speaker 1: I was driving down Sunset Boulevard, like right after I graduated,

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Speaker 1: and the Virgin Megastore used to sit on the corner

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Speaker 1: of Crescent Heights and Sunset. It's funny how much space.

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Speaker 1: CD stores used to take it right. Oh.

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Speaker 3: I used to the Virgin Megastore in New York. That

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Speaker 3: was a big destination, the stations.

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Speaker 1: You could listen to CDs all day. But I'll never forget.

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Speaker 1: They had blocked off the road and I was like,

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Speaker 1: what's going on here? And I saw a band setting

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Speaker 1: up on the rooftop. No way, and I seriously I

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Speaker 1: parked on like Laurel, right next to the Laugh Factory,

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Speaker 1: and I walked over and I was like, oh my gosh,

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Speaker 1: it's smashing pumps is on the roof of the Virgin

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Speaker 1: Megastore and they played this whole big concert with songs

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Speaker 1: from Siamese Dream and Melancholy, and I think a door

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Speaker 1: had just come out, and like the streets. We filled

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Speaker 1: the streets of that big corner. If you've ever been

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Speaker 1: in LA that's like a really big corner.

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Speaker 2: It was this like a beatles like YouTube things.

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Speaker 1: I don't know how spontaneous it was. Maybe the word

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Speaker 1: had gotten out, like it was a pretty huge crowd

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Speaker 1: of people, but like the sun was going down over

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Speaker 1: the hills and like Billy and James and Jimmy and

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Speaker 1: Dark and it was that was when I realized, you

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Speaker 1: know what, my my fandom of this band is above

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Speaker 1: some other bands.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, they're real special band. Agree, that's so cool.

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean just leaping ahead a little bit, like

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Speaker 3: when I started making music myself. So many influences, you know.

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Speaker 3: At the time, there were a handful of things that

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Speaker 3: like I knew I was trying to do, and some

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Speaker 3: things that later on I'm like, oh, I was thinking

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Speaker 3: about this band. Smashing Pupkins were definitely front and center

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Speaker 3: for me. There was something about the sound being this

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Speaker 3: combination of epic rock, bomb bass frankly, and then like

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Speaker 3: the bombas is a big the no and then I

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Speaker 3: love the unabashedness. It's like, let's put bombast in this.

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Speaker 3: That's what he wants on a bash at bomb bass.

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Speaker 3: He It's a goal of his at a time when

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Speaker 3: that was not what people it was. It had fallen

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Speaker 3: from favor and it was it was an unusual choice.

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Speaker 3: We're going to talk about that a little bit later.

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Speaker 3: But I was also kind of wanting to do a

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Speaker 3: similar thing and San Francisco early, you know, two thousands,

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Speaker 3: where I was like, you know, there's a lot of

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Speaker 3: indie stuff that was broken beat was happening and kind

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Speaker 3: of obscure, and I was like, no, I want to

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Speaker 3: like swing for the fences and have these.

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Speaker 2: Big guitar crunchy rips and stuff like that.

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Speaker 3: And I kind of had a similar experience where like

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Speaker 3: my scene didn't really embrace me. San Francisco in the

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Speaker 3: early two thousands was not super kind to lecture embracing. Well,

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Speaker 3: you know, we can get into some theories I have,

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Speaker 3: but I definitely felt some identification with Billy's kind of sensibility.

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Speaker 3: And part of why I wanted to do this song

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Speaker 3: is because it is about this exact phenomenon of like

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Speaker 3: the gatekeepers in the indie rock community and the gatekeepers

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Speaker 3: on MTV, and his feeling of like screw you guys,

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Speaker 3: Like this is the music that's real to me and

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Speaker 3: that's coming naturally and that I want to make even

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Speaker 3: if it doesn't seem cool to you guys.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that. I love that he was going

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Speaker 1: at the gate keepers, by the way, they were on Virgin. Yes,

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Speaker 1: a very first record industry job after college. You know,

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Speaker 1: my first record label job was at La Face, my

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Speaker 1: second one was at Virgin. You know, this is right

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Speaker 1: after college, and so I actually have a ton of

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Speaker 1: pristine smashing pumpkins.

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Speaker 2: Do you really?

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Speaker 1: I really do? Like, you know, like the so Melancholy

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Speaker 1: was a double CD, so I have like the four vinyl?

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Speaker 2: Are you serious? I was again drooling with ND Smashing.

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Speaker 1: As a double vinyl because as it was a single CD,

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Speaker 1: but they really wanted that one and eighty gram you

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Speaker 1: know how much vinyl.

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Speaker 3: This is like sort of an obscure, kind of an anecdote,

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Speaker 3: but like the moment this record came out was the

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Speaker 3: moment I had held held off for years on CDs.

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Speaker 3: I was like, what a garbage technology? Remember long boxes

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Speaker 3: and all that. I hated it, But in this moment,

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Speaker 3: I was like I was at college and I was like,

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Speaker 3: it's it's I didn't have enough room to always be

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Speaker 3: carding around and like I made the conversion with Siamese

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Speaker 3: Dream Yes, And I regret it to this day that

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Speaker 3: I don't actually have it on vinyl and I had

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Speaker 3: Gish on vinyl. A big regret in my life is

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Speaker 3: where did that vinyl go? The fact that you have

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Speaker 3: all this vinyl, I'm very very.

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Speaker 1: Forget that we ever discussed this, and maybe there'll be

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Speaker 1: something for you come toss.

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Speaker 2: I do have birthday coming up.

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Speaker 1: It's true, but listen. Yeah, Smashic Pumpkins is literally one

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Speaker 1: of the most successful rock bands of all time. They've

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Speaker 1: sold thirty million albums. This song is off of Siamese Dream.

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Speaker 1: It went four times platinum and Melancholy Infinite Sadness and

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Speaker 1: actually Diamonds it sold ten million or more.

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Speaker 2: Copirazy. That doesn't happen anymore, No, it really doesn't.

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Speaker 1: It was literally like the second they came up with

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Speaker 1: that certification.

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Speaker 2: Here used it again.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like the ultimate humorous but people used to

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Speaker 1: pay for art. Smashing Pumpkins has had one number one hit,

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Speaker 1: seven top ten hits. They've been nominated for eleven Grammys

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Speaker 1: and they won too. They won nineteen ninety seven for

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Speaker 1: Bullet with Butterfly Wings great song, and they won in

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety eight for the End Is the Beginning? Is

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Speaker 1: the end? I don't know the choice?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, visual choice, bouncy.

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Speaker 1: That sounds like they became friends with the Grammys.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, people like you've been screwing us for years.

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Speaker 1: Hey, what song do you want to be nominated for?

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Speaker 2: You gotta give us one. Just pick a song. We'll

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Speaker 2: take it. Song, We'll take it homey.

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Speaker 1: And will win Best Hard Rock perform.

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Speaker 2: It's a fine song, but it's not like one that

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Speaker 2: is in the pantheon.

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Speaker 1: And by the way, all the success very much deserved

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Speaker 1: by the Pumpkins. I mean, if you think about their hits,

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Speaker 1: it's nineteen seventy nine, Bullet with butterfly Wings, Disarm Today,

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Speaker 1: my own personal favorite, Tonight Tonight. And when we were

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Speaker 1: preparing this episode, we had a listen. We had a

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Speaker 1: vigorous back and forth about which of these songs that

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Speaker 1: we would do. But you know, in some cases we

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Speaker 1: didn't have the stems. Hello Tonight, Tonight could not find

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Speaker 1: you anywhere. In other cases, it isn't necessarily the song

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Speaker 1: that we wanted to discuss. I personally love nineteen seventy nine.

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Speaker 2: I love that song too, Yes your Poets and I'm

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Speaker 2: meant yeah.

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Speaker 1: And this is one of the things we discussed. It's

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Speaker 1: not the most smashing pumpkinny. It's it's kind of a

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Speaker 1: little outlier. That's a little bit of an outlier. Latrie

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Speaker 1: help us understand what led to that wonderfully distinct smashing

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Speaker 1: pumpkin sound.

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Speaker 3: A really unique thing about Billy Corgan in this moment

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Speaker 3: in nineteen ninety three, when when this record is being

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Speaker 3: made and when this song comes out, is that he's

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Speaker 3: bringing his heavy metal background to indie rock, to a

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Speaker 3: post Nirvana world where heavy metal judas Priest and accept

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Speaker 3: and like all Rainbow, all of these seventies hard rock

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Speaker 3: bands and Queen and Boston, all of these bands he's

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Speaker 3: actually aiming to emulate. He is aiming to bring back

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Speaker 3: their bomb bass and they are huge rock guitar walls

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Speaker 3: of sound and epic noss and the voice. All of

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Speaker 3: it is a conscious effort to bring something that had

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Speaker 3: been kind of lost in the eighties. It's like a

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Speaker 3: throwback to the seventies and he's like, the world is

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Speaker 3: ready to hear this again. And it's a real risk

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Speaker 3: because in indie rock circles, like in this Nirvana world

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Speaker 3: where there's pavement in Sebado and Sonic Youth, that is

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Speaker 3: not cool.

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Speaker 1: Right, And I mean, like, I think you kind of

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Speaker 1: get into what I was going to ask, which is

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Speaker 1: what makes his sound different from somebody like Soundgarden.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And that's a great question because I think in

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Speaker 3: Billy's mind he was thinking the same thing. I think

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Speaker 3: Billy had something about Soundgarden as a band in his

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Speaker 3: mind that he was competitive with them and wondering why

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Speaker 3: they got kind of more indie cred and by the way,

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Speaker 3: subpop band originally, then they got signed to A and M.

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Speaker 3: But in his mind he was wondering the same thing,

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Speaker 3: how come I can't do what Soundgarden does. One obviously

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Speaker 3: distinction is that he doesn't have Chris Cornell's voice, so

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Speaker 3: he can't sing like Chris Cornell did. But I think

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Speaker 3: another thing that I thought about this a lot. I

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Speaker 3: think Soundgarden was able to inject a little bit of

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Speaker 3: a wink and a nudge of irony, which was a

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Speaker 3: big thing culturally in the early nineties. Sure absolutely, and

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Speaker 3: Kirk Cobain would do the same thing when they would

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Speaker 3: take a whailing guitar solo. It was a little bit

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Speaker 3: of a wink, wink, nudge nudge. When Billy Corgan takes

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Speaker 3: a guitar solo, there's no it's without guile. It's like

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Speaker 3: I'm swinging for the fences. I am Brian May two

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Speaker 3: point zero, I'm Richie Blackmore two point zero, And I

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Speaker 3: think to a lot of people in that moment in

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Speaker 3: the community, it's like, bro, that's just not cool.

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Speaker 1: You know what's interesting about what you just said is

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking about a song like today where the lyrics

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Speaker 1: are really positive, but he's clearly in a bad place.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and that is a sarcastic song actually, So.

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Speaker 1: That actually is some yeah, right, irony, sarcas, whatever you

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Speaker 1: want to call it. So he wasn't anti irony, but

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Speaker 1: I do get where like he wasn't ironic in the

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Speaker 1: way that some of the other bands of this era are.

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Speaker 3: It's so perfect that you brought that song up because

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Speaker 3: Billy tells the story about how that song was actually

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Speaker 3: a turning point in his inner turmoil. And again, this song,

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Speaker 3: Terra barc We're gonna get very deep into it. It

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Speaker 3: is about this what I just described, his feelings towards

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Speaker 3: the hipster community, hipster's unite, as he sings, But that

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Speaker 3: was one of the last songs he actually wrote for

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Speaker 3: the album. He was still wrestling with it earlier in

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Speaker 3: the songwriting process for Siamese Dream. He writes today, and

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Speaker 3: he says how that was a moment that he was

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Speaker 3: able to reconcile these opposing forces of coolness and uncoolness

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Speaker 3: that he was feeling about his songwriting he was recognizing

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Speaker 3: that it just wasn't being accepted in Chicago's you Know,

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Speaker 3: Hipster Worlds and MTV's Hipster one hundred and twenty minutes

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Speaker 3: whatever they were being played. But he felt some disrespect

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Speaker 3: for in his way. But he says about found a

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Speaker 3: quote about the song today. He felt that it captured

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Speaker 3: his essence as these are his words a core boy

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Speaker 3: from fucking Chicago. He goes, I reached a point where

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Speaker 3: there was a direct conflict between what I was trying

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Speaker 3: to be and who I really was. I was trying

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Speaker 3: to be this person who is cool, eternally rocking, and

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Speaker 3: yet I was writing this dumb song Like today, I'd

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Speaker 3: reached a fork in the road. Do I throw this

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Speaker 3: in the trash and try and pursue some kind of

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Speaker 3: ideal that I can't live up to, or just accept

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Speaker 3: who I am? And in this song he does that,

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Speaker 3: and interestingly, to your point, he finds some irony that

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Speaker 3: had been maybe previously lacking from the rest of his work.

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Speaker 3: It starts to be kind of more of a balance

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Speaker 3: with the bomb Bast, which is unabash hit bomb Bast

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Speaker 3: and a little bit of a self awareness maybe seeping

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Speaker 3: in about how it is perceived and he doesn't care.

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Speaker 3: He's starting to just not care. He's letting go of

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Speaker 3: caring what the gatekeepers think.

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Speaker 1: If it's possible, I want to take a step back

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Speaker 1: and talk about the founding of the group. Billy Co

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Speaker 1: founds the band in nineteen eighty eight in Chicago with

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Speaker 1: guitarist James Zha. Not too long after that, they recruit

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Speaker 1: a drummer and a bassis. Let me ask you, as

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Speaker 1: an expert of the band, what's the dynamic of the

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Speaker 1: band in these early days.

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Speaker 3: So I think in the early days you have to

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Speaker 3: understand that the band Smashing Pumpkins in Billy's mind has

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Speaker 3: always been kind of an entity that is a band.

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Speaker 3: But to the rest of the world, it mostly kind

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Speaker 3: of seems like Billy and whoever is around, because there

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Speaker 3: are shifting members of the band. We have Darcy on

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Speaker 3: bass and then she's gone in Melissa Aftermarf from Whole

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Speaker 3: replaces or et cetera. And Jimmy Chamberlain is in the

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Speaker 3: band and then he is gone and then he comes back.

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Speaker 1: I will say, you know, this is like during a

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Speaker 1: period where you know, I'm listening to music constantly and

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Speaker 1: I know what bands look like like nowadays, Like I'll

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Speaker 1: hear about a rapper for a full year before I

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Speaker 1: ever find out, Oh that's losif hurt, Like it'll take

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Speaker 1: me some time. But back then I knew the Smashing Pumpkins.

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Speaker 1: It is ironic. I thought they were like one of

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Speaker 1: the most diverse bands of the period, Like, you know,

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Speaker 1: you've got an Asian guy, yeah, and a cool you

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Speaker 1: know girl, Like they just seem like a more of

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Speaker 1: a mix of people than just like five or six

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Speaker 1: white dudes.

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Speaker 3: My speculation I've listened to There's a lot of Billy

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Speaker 3: Corgan interview footage out there, and there's a lot he

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Speaker 3: talks about this stuff a lot over the years, and

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Speaker 3: I think there's some things that are consistent in some

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Speaker 3: things that change. So this is me speculating from what

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Speaker 3: I pieced together. I think he's always wanted a tribe

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Speaker 3: a home because he came from a broken home. His

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Speaker 3: parents were divorced when he was three, and he was

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Speaker 3: shounted off to his great grandmother and then his grandmother.

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Speaker 3: His dad got remarried, but his stepmother was abusive and

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Speaker 3: his mother was not well, so he couldn't really live

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Speaker 3: with her. He has this looking for a home miss

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Speaker 3: in his childhood that really lasts his entire life until

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Speaker 3: recent days, where he's happily married now, so everything ended well.

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Speaker 3: But in the band days, it seems like he's trying

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Speaker 3: to put together a new family, but it's difficult for

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Speaker 3: him to hold on to them, and he's also very controlling,

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Speaker 3: so he will record a lot of music and then

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Speaker 3: kind of replace parts and we'll be getting into that later,

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Speaker 3: which has the effect of pushing away these family members.

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Speaker 3: So the bandness, I think, feels like a very carefully

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Speaker 3: cultivated thing to build a tribe, to build a family,

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Speaker 3: to be part of something. But just like the scene

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Speaker 3: at large that rejects him the band, he has this

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Speaker 3: push pull and yeah, he's back to being alone within

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Speaker 3: the band.

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Speaker 2: Not to mention, well, I mean.

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Speaker 1: Look good, sugarcoated. He also has a reputation for being

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Speaker 1: extremely hard to get along with.

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Speaker 3: I mean, but which is the cause in which is

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Speaker 3: the effect? Is hard to say that that is true.

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Speaker 3: I don't want to push that aside, but you know,

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Speaker 3: I have a lot of empathy for him. He has

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Speaker 3: such a vision, he has such a sound in mind,

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Speaker 3: and he's also coming from such frankly a dark place

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Speaker 3: that he's got a lot to express and only he

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Speaker 3: knows how to express it. And listen, I can speak

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Speaker 3: from personal experience, like without that troubled background. I also

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Speaker 3: know that it is tricky sometimes to like navigate between

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Speaker 3: like are you my collaborator? Are you the person that's

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Speaker 3: executing my vision? If you are, how do I make

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Speaker 3: you feel good about it?

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Speaker 2: And stay?

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Speaker 3: It's really tricky stuff, And the story of Smashing Pumpkins

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Speaker 3: is I think very much Billy wanting a family, musicians,

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Speaker 3: wanting to be in this tribe, and it being a

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Speaker 3: really tricky thing from one album to the next, from

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Speaker 3: one year to the next.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think what you're saying is true, And there's

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Speaker 1: a lot there's a lot of quotes out there that

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Speaker 1: back up everything you're saying. Billy's quoted in the La

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Speaker 1: Times of saying, quote, I don't have the proper indie credentials.

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Speaker 1: I didn't play in some seminal band where five people

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Speaker 1: bought the record. Yeah, oh man, he says, I wasn't

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Speaker 1: a roadie. That kind of rags to Rich's story. And

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Speaker 1: I think you actually have a quote too from Rolling Stone.

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Speaker 2: This from nineteen ninety three.

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Speaker 3: You know, kind of right when the song is coming out,

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Speaker 3: I'm like the fugitive running from the one armed indie

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Speaker 3: rock community. If I continued on the path I was on.

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Speaker 3: In other words, this is this moment where he's making

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Speaker 3: this decision. Do I keep on trying to win the

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Speaker 3: approval of these people, or do I just do what

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Speaker 3: I want to do, which is big, bombastic rock. If

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Speaker 3: I continued on the path I was on, which was

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Speaker 3: being overly conscious and worried what the indie rock hierarchy

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Speaker 3: was going to think of our new album, we were

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Speaker 3: going to fail.

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Speaker 2: So Billy is a thoughtful.

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Speaker 3: Maybe overthinking person, but obviously it goes into the music,

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Speaker 3: and it goes into the lyrics, and it goes into

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Speaker 3: the song in a really big way.

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Speaker 1: For me personally, He's an example of somebody who it's

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Speaker 1: almost like Morris and the Smith's like, I love that music. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't have to really make my peace with the

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Speaker 1: man behind the curtain.

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Speaker 3: You don't have to, I think. I Actually it's interesting

386
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Speaker 3: because I've been recently. I just listened to his more

387
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Speaker 3: recent interviews and comparing them to the old stuff, and

388
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Speaker 3: he's come a long way. But there's also some questions

389
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Speaker 3: swirling about his political affiliations, which I haven't quite landed myself.

390
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Speaker 3: You know, we don't need to get into but I

391
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Speaker 3: do think that at the time, what he was dealing

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Speaker 3: with was, Look, there's this famous song by Pavement, right,

393
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Speaker 3: we got to talk about the Pavements song day, Let's talk.

394
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Speaker 3: In nineteen ninety four, Pavement puts out a song called

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Speaker 3: Range Life, which includes this lyric I'll play it for

396
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Speaker 3: you and then I'll I'll read the lyric in case

397
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Speaker 3: he missed it. Smash's Nature Kids.

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Speaker 1: They don't have no function. I don't understand what they

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Speaker 1: mean in Rocket Thank you fuck. We should have included

400
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Speaker 1: this in our beef episode.

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Speaker 3: Hey you right, it's a beef trip. That's a real

402
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Speaker 3: beaf track. I mean, out on tour with the Smashing Pumpkins.

403
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Speaker 3: Nature Kids, they don't have no function. I don't understand

404
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Speaker 3: what they mean, and I could really give a fuck.

405
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Speaker 2: Now.

406
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Speaker 3: This is nineteen ninety four, Pavement being maybe the ultimate

407
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Speaker 3: like indie rock cred band, and personally speaking, I was

408
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Speaker 3: not a Pavement fan like this represented a type of

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Speaker 3: music I couldn't really get behind.

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Speaker 1: At a friend, a black friend who was really into Pavement, okay,

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Speaker 1: and and got me to you know, I would listen

412
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Speaker 1: to it when he would listen to it, but it

413
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Speaker 1: wasn't quite my thing.

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Speaker 3: It's more lyrics driven, I mean, musically, it's not really

415
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Speaker 3: important what's happening in the music.

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Speaker 2: It's not for saying.

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Speaker 3: It's more than coming from like a Bob Dylan tradition.

418
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Speaker 3: It's more coming from or Elliot Smith or Leonard Cohen.

419
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Speaker 3: It's like the lyrics are while we're here. It's not

420
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Speaker 3: even melody matters lesson music. So I wasn't into it,

421
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Speaker 3: and Pavement was not into smashing pumpkins and smashing pumpkins,

422
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Speaker 3: and Billy, I should say, hearing this song was not

423
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Speaker 3: very happy himself. The result of this song coming out is,

424
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Speaker 3: according to legend, he told the Lollapalooz organizers that the

425
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Speaker 3: Pumpkins would pull off the bill they were going to

426
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Speaker 3: headline that year if Pavement were also on the bill.

427
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Speaker 3: What So he was bitter. He was, like, this song

428
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Speaker 3: really got to got under his skin.

429
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Speaker 1: Never find out about your heroes. Yeah, it always stretches

430
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Speaker 1: a little petty when people pull their muscle.

431
00:20:27,716 --> 00:20:29,836
Speaker 2: Like well, so, but here's a good question. You mentioned petty.

432
00:20:29,996 --> 00:20:32,356
Speaker 3: Like at the time, what he said in Rolling Stone

433
00:20:32,516 --> 00:20:34,556
Speaker 3: was I think that this is Billy Corgan referring to

434
00:20:34,756 --> 00:20:37,396
Speaker 3: that lyric I displayed for you. He said at the time,

435
00:20:37,436 --> 00:20:40,356
Speaker 3: I think it's rooted in jealousy. It shows true pettiness

436
00:20:40,756 --> 00:20:43,596
Speaker 3: to your point. So who's the pettier one, the one

437
00:20:43,596 --> 00:20:45,356
Speaker 3: who puts the song out or the one who reacts

438
00:20:45,396 --> 00:20:46,236
Speaker 3: to the song about them?

439
00:20:46,356 --> 00:20:49,676
Speaker 1: Right? I mean, I'm not even a Pavement fan. If

440
00:20:49,716 --> 00:20:52,716
Speaker 1: he's just being honest in the lyric, then I'm sort

441
00:20:52,716 --> 00:20:53,716
Speaker 1: of like cool with that.

442
00:20:54,076 --> 00:20:55,916
Speaker 3: But I think, well, wait, if someone proud a song

443
00:20:55,956 --> 00:20:57,396
Speaker 3: saying Diallo really.

444
00:20:57,516 --> 00:21:00,476
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not gonna be like, if you ever have

445
00:21:00,556 --> 00:21:02,916
Speaker 1: an interview with that guy, there ain't no more one song,

446
00:21:03,076 --> 00:21:05,916
Speaker 1: you know. I think that that's I don't love it

447
00:21:05,916 --> 00:21:08,316
Speaker 1: when artists do that kind of stuff, Like I think, like,

448
00:21:08,796 --> 00:21:10,556
Speaker 1: just on to him the song, you know what I mean.

449
00:21:10,676 --> 00:21:13,316
Speaker 1: But like you know, and Billy Corgan has a connection

450
00:21:13,356 --> 00:21:16,156
Speaker 1: to Courtney Love and whole as well. Can you tell

451
00:21:16,236 --> 00:21:17,036
Speaker 1: us what that's about?

452
00:21:17,236 --> 00:21:17,476
Speaker 2: Yes?

453
00:21:17,556 --> 00:21:20,796
Speaker 3: Well, actually technically everyone knows this, but Billy Corgan was

454
00:21:20,916 --> 00:21:22,236
Speaker 3: first to date Courtney Love.

455
00:21:23,476 --> 00:21:24,676
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's true.

456
00:21:25,396 --> 00:21:28,756
Speaker 3: Yeah, And famously, as he's told the story himself. I

457
00:21:28,796 --> 00:21:30,796
Speaker 3: think he kicked her out and then she went down

458
00:21:30,796 --> 00:21:33,196
Speaker 3: the street, according to the story he tells, and saw

459
00:21:33,276 --> 00:21:35,796
Speaker 3: a Nirvana show and started dating him. Whether it's like

460
00:21:35,836 --> 00:21:38,156
Speaker 3: literally the same night or whether it's a little exaggerated,

461
00:21:38,156 --> 00:21:41,836
Speaker 3: but like she basically went from Billy to Kurt. And

462
00:21:41,916 --> 00:21:44,756
Speaker 3: this maybe fuels a little bit of how Billy Corgan

463
00:21:44,876 --> 00:21:48,596
Speaker 3: sees the world in this moment, because Nirvana, clearly, you know,

464
00:21:48,756 --> 00:21:51,756
Speaker 3: is the indie Darling of nineteen ninety one and onward.

465
00:21:51,556 --> 00:21:53,716
Speaker 2: And rightfully so, and rightfully so.

466
00:21:54,316 --> 00:21:57,196
Speaker 3: And it should be noted that their first record, Gish,

467
00:21:57,316 --> 00:22:00,516
Speaker 3: was produced by Butch Vig, and it came out first.

468
00:22:00,676 --> 00:22:02,516
Speaker 2: And guess what else Butchvig was working on in that

469
00:22:02,516 --> 00:22:03,316
Speaker 2: same time period.

470
00:22:03,356 --> 00:22:06,716
Speaker 3: I can guess never Mind was released just four or

471
00:22:06,716 --> 00:22:10,836
Speaker 3: five months after Gish, the first Smashing Pumpkins record. So

472
00:22:11,076 --> 00:22:14,516
Speaker 3: Billy is feeling maybe left out of something bigger happening

473
00:22:14,716 --> 00:22:16,516
Speaker 3: to someone that's right next to him, which.

474
00:22:16,356 --> 00:22:18,476
Speaker 1: Big one of my favorite guys from the nineties, and

475
00:22:18,756 --> 00:22:20,596
Speaker 1: I'm a huge Garbage fan. I think the stuff that

476
00:22:20,636 --> 00:22:22,996
Speaker 1: he did with a Shirley Manson the crew was outstanding.

477
00:22:23,236 --> 00:22:27,076
Speaker 1: But Corgan is he gets back with Corney, I believe,

478
00:22:27,236 --> 00:22:30,676
Speaker 1: and yes, he co wrote five songs with Courtney on

479
00:22:30,996 --> 00:22:33,356
Speaker 1: Hole's album Celebrity Skin, which is one of my favorite

480
00:22:33,396 --> 00:22:35,316
Speaker 1: and listen, I'll admit it, I'll take the heat. I

481
00:22:35,396 --> 00:22:37,476
Speaker 1: think Celebrity Skin is a great album.

482
00:22:37,596 --> 00:22:40,276
Speaker 2: No heat, I malib I love that.

483
00:22:40,516 --> 00:22:43,636
Speaker 1: I love that song. And I actually remember exactly where

484
00:22:43,676 --> 00:22:45,156
Speaker 1: I was at. I was at a party the very

485
00:22:45,196 --> 00:22:47,916
Speaker 1: first time I heard the title track Celebrity Skin.

486
00:22:51,636 --> 00:22:56,476
Speaker 2: Oh make me out, I'm all I want to be.

487
00:22:59,556 --> 00:22:59,796
Speaker 3: Day.

488
00:23:00,436 --> 00:23:02,476
Speaker 2: I just forgot how much I love that sick baseline.

489
00:23:02,636 --> 00:23:05,996
Speaker 1: Yeah, so also I love it, But I also hear

490
00:23:06,156 --> 00:23:11,476
Speaker 1: now so clearly how the guy who co wrote Celebrity

491
00:23:11,516 --> 00:23:23,676
Speaker 1: Skin could have also written Bull of a Butterfly Wings. Yeah. Yeah,

492
00:23:23,716 --> 00:23:28,476
Speaker 1: we're tearing up the studio. The music. The music has

493
00:23:28,476 --> 00:23:29,316
Speaker 1: that effect on us.

494
00:23:29,316 --> 00:23:30,716
Speaker 3: Can I just say this is not one of my

495
00:23:30,716 --> 00:23:32,796
Speaker 3: favorite songs. And part of it is because I talk

496
00:23:33,116 --> 00:23:35,956
Speaker 3: this go ahead I feel like and I've heard and

497
00:23:36,036 --> 00:23:38,796
Speaker 3: interviews him sort of allude to this corowaway this. I'm

498
00:23:38,796 --> 00:23:40,756
Speaker 3: pretty sure he wrote this because he thought he was

499
00:23:40,756 --> 00:23:42,956
Speaker 3: supposed to write it, like he was told to write

500
00:23:42,996 --> 00:23:46,196
Speaker 3: another hit. Not dissimilar to some of the Tara Brock

501
00:23:46,236 --> 00:23:50,276
Speaker 3: type anthems from Siamese Dream because it's very smashing pumpkins

502
00:23:50,276 --> 00:23:52,756
Speaker 3: by numbers, like right down to the part where he

503
00:23:52,836 --> 00:23:56,796
Speaker 3: it's just him with no music behind him.

504
00:23:56,796 --> 00:24:02,836
Speaker 1: My rage gium still just reading a came despite my

505
00:24:03,036 --> 00:24:05,876
Speaker 1: rage gia still just reading a cad.

506
00:24:06,756 --> 00:24:07,036
Speaker 2: I don't know.

507
00:24:07,156 --> 00:24:10,796
Speaker 1: I heard that this was the first song of the

508
00:24:10,836 --> 00:24:16,676
Speaker 1: Melancholi sessions. Ironically, tonight, tonight, probably my favorite song was

509
00:24:16,676 --> 00:24:19,956
Speaker 1: written during the Siamese Dream sessions. Oh really, and he

510
00:24:20,076 --> 00:24:23,156
Speaker 1: just he actually, while they were touring Siamese Dream, he

511
00:24:23,276 --> 00:24:26,276
Speaker 1: like booked some studio time and had the band go

512
00:24:26,356 --> 00:24:29,076
Speaker 1: in and actually record that song while he had all

513
00:24:29,116 --> 00:24:31,596
Speaker 1: these ideas running through his head. But I believe that

514
00:24:31,676 --> 00:24:35,596
Speaker 1: Bullet is the first from Melancholy, and the last from

515
00:24:35,596 --> 00:24:38,796
Speaker 1: Melancholy is nineteen seventy nine. And then it almost didn't

516
00:24:38,796 --> 00:24:42,516
Speaker 1: make the album. But when I think it's the producer

517
00:24:42,636 --> 00:24:44,996
Speaker 1: known as Flood told him, hey, I don't know about

518
00:24:45,036 --> 00:24:47,436
Speaker 1: this nineteen seventy nine. It doesn't sound like you guys.

519
00:24:47,476 --> 00:24:49,436
Speaker 1: You should leave it off that He saw that as

520
00:24:49,436 --> 00:24:53,156
Speaker 1: a challenge and went back into the studio for four

521
00:24:53,196 --> 00:24:55,916
Speaker 1: more hours worked on nineteen seventy nine, and then when

522
00:24:55,916 --> 00:24:58,316
Speaker 1: flood hurt. The next morning, he was like, uh, yeah,

523
00:24:58,356 --> 00:25:02,396
Speaker 1: I was wrong. You should put this on the album.

524
00:25:03,756 --> 00:25:13,036
Speaker 4: Ninety kids.

525
00:25:14,476 --> 00:25:17,596
Speaker 3: Great song. It is in my like B list of favorites.

526
00:25:17,796 --> 00:25:21,236
Speaker 3: I don't dislike it, but again, as a Jimmy Chamberlain fan, yeah,

527
00:25:21,356 --> 00:25:23,356
Speaker 3: as a fan of the drums in this band as

528
00:25:23,436 --> 00:25:25,916
Speaker 3: much as the guitar, it's a little bit like, Man,

529
00:25:25,916 --> 00:25:27,276
Speaker 3: I wish they'd let us rip.

530
00:25:27,116 --> 00:25:29,076
Speaker 1: On nineteen seventy nine. And I know that we have

531
00:25:29,116 --> 00:25:31,836
Speaker 1: a lot of listeners, you know. I talked to folks

532
00:25:31,876 --> 00:25:34,356
Speaker 1: and when I told them we were doing Smash Republicans,

533
00:25:34,636 --> 00:25:37,356
Speaker 1: a lot of them were like, nineteen seventy nine, Listen,

534
00:25:37,396 --> 00:25:39,836
Speaker 1: we love that song. I do think that we just

535
00:25:39,916 --> 00:25:42,476
Speaker 1: wanted to do something that felt a little bit more

536
00:25:42,556 --> 00:25:44,956
Speaker 1: like the band's signature sound. But like nobody's taking anything

537
00:25:44,996 --> 00:25:47,356
Speaker 1: away from it. And by the way, it's their number

538
00:25:47,396 --> 00:25:49,396
Speaker 1: one song, so oh yeah, you know.

539
00:25:49,596 --> 00:25:52,196
Speaker 2: We understandable that you'd want us to break it down.

540
00:25:52,116 --> 00:25:54,476
Speaker 1: Yes, but we want to talk about cherub Rock. So

541
00:25:54,596 --> 00:25:57,836
Speaker 1: cherub Rock is on the Smashing Pumpkins' second album, Siamese Dream,

542
00:25:57,876 --> 00:26:00,116
Speaker 1: released in July of nineteen ninety three. It was their

543
00:26:00,116 --> 00:26:02,076
Speaker 1: first single off the album, and that's only because Billy

544
00:26:02,076 --> 00:26:04,516
Speaker 1: fought the label hard for it to be the first single.

545
00:26:04,516 --> 00:26:08,236
Speaker 1: That's right. For purely commercial reasons, this might have been

546
00:26:08,316 --> 00:26:10,036
Speaker 1: one of the times that lay was right because they

547
00:26:10,036 --> 00:26:12,236
Speaker 1: wanted the first single to be Today. Today turned out

548
00:26:12,236 --> 00:26:14,796
Speaker 1: to be the second single, and Today is the single

549
00:26:14,996 --> 00:26:19,516
Speaker 1: that broke the band big. But the album Siamese Dream

550
00:26:20,196 --> 00:26:23,676
Speaker 1: is a wonderful picture of the band at that moment.

551
00:26:23,716 --> 00:26:26,436
Speaker 1: I mean, there's so much going on. Corgan is depressed

552
00:26:26,476 --> 00:26:29,196
Speaker 1: and suffering from writer's block. You've got things happening within

553
00:26:29,276 --> 00:26:32,196
Speaker 1: the band, like James eh and Darcy are in and

554
00:26:32,236 --> 00:26:35,076
Speaker 1: out of a romantic relationship, Jimmy Chamberlain is battling a

555
00:26:35,076 --> 00:26:37,476
Speaker 1: heroin addiction, and the whole band is just there's a

556
00:26:37,516 --> 00:26:38,996
Speaker 1: lot of infighting going on.

557
00:26:39,276 --> 00:26:39,676
Speaker 2: That's right.

558
00:26:39,716 --> 00:26:41,716
Speaker 3: And in Billy's own words, this is an interview who

559
00:26:41,716 --> 00:26:44,036
Speaker 3: gave a few years later. He said, this is referring

560
00:26:44,076 --> 00:26:45,596
Speaker 3: to the moment where they went into the studio for

561
00:26:45,636 --> 00:26:47,556
Speaker 3: Siamese Dream. They had just come off this tour for

562
00:26:47,596 --> 00:26:51,236
Speaker 3: a gish selling out everywhere we go. Everything was cool, fine, dandy.

563
00:26:51,276 --> 00:26:54,436
Speaker 3: Then in his words, suddenly, boom Nirvana. We went from

564
00:26:54,476 --> 00:26:57,316
Speaker 3: being seen as future stars almost to has beens. People

565
00:26:57,396 --> 00:26:58,876
Speaker 3: were saying, well, if you were so good, this would

566
00:26:58,916 --> 00:27:01,476
Speaker 3: have happened to you. So Billy is in a deep depression.

567
00:27:01,516 --> 00:27:04,676
Speaker 3: As he said in another interview, I was suicidal plotting

568
00:27:04,676 --> 00:27:06,956
Speaker 3: my own death for about two months. Everything you said

569
00:27:06,996 --> 00:27:09,076
Speaker 3: about the breakups and the heroine, this is a dark,

570
00:27:09,196 --> 00:27:11,676
Speaker 3: dark moment with a lot of pressure and a lot

571
00:27:11,716 --> 00:27:15,596
Speaker 3: of confusion. We alluded to the breakthrough, so we've already

572
00:27:15,676 --> 00:27:17,996
Speaker 3: kind of with the song today. So he breaks through

573
00:27:17,996 --> 00:27:19,996
Speaker 3: and then these songs get written in the album is amazing,

574
00:27:20,196 --> 00:27:22,396
Speaker 3: but in this moment before they get started on this

575
00:27:22,596 --> 00:27:25,156
Speaker 3: very long drawn out process, they're in the studio for

576
00:27:25,196 --> 00:27:27,676
Speaker 3: three or four months with like twelve fourteen hour days.

577
00:27:28,116 --> 00:27:31,596
Speaker 3: It's a difficult album to make, and but a lot

578
00:27:31,596 --> 00:27:33,876
Speaker 3: of great art comes out of challenging times.

579
00:27:34,316 --> 00:27:37,276
Speaker 1: That's all true. And listen, after the break we will

580
00:27:37,316 --> 00:27:40,276
Speaker 1: dive into how the song Chaeri Brock was actually made

581
00:27:40,516 --> 00:27:43,436
Speaker 1: and does this song feature James Zha Darcy and Jimmy

582
00:27:43,516 --> 00:27:47,316
Speaker 1: Chamberlain or not. Stay tuned for the answer after this

583
00:28:01,676 --> 00:28:05,076
Speaker 1: welcome back to one song Luxury walk us through cher

584
00:28:05,236 --> 00:28:07,756
Speaker 1: Brock tell us how did this song get made? Well?

585
00:28:07,796 --> 00:28:10,356
Speaker 3: As we mentioned, this is the signs stream sessions. It's

586
00:28:10,716 --> 00:28:13,036
Speaker 3: it's circa nineteen ninety three and we are in Atlanta

587
00:28:13,076 --> 00:28:15,836
Speaker 3: with the band this fashion Pumpkins, and the band is

588
00:28:15,916 --> 00:28:19,076
Speaker 3: there together. It's all four members. It's Butch Vig who

589
00:28:19,196 --> 00:28:21,396
Speaker 3: is the producer. And yeah, I mean you can watch

590
00:28:21,436 --> 00:28:24,596
Speaker 3: some great old interview footage where there they are very bored.

591
00:28:24,636 --> 00:28:27,796
Speaker 3: These are long days. They are tracking guitars like there.

592
00:28:28,236 --> 00:28:31,356
Speaker 3: Some songs have like forty guitars in them, like stacks

593
00:28:31,356 --> 00:28:34,076
Speaker 3: and stacks. They are rehearsing, They're getting many takes of

594
00:28:34,156 --> 00:28:37,596
Speaker 3: Jimmy Chamberlain playing drums. It seems very grueling. It seems

595
00:28:37,636 --> 00:28:40,956
Speaker 3: like this record was a very long, laborious labor of love,

596
00:28:41,036 --> 00:28:41,796
Speaker 3: but laborious.

597
00:28:41,836 --> 00:28:44,716
Speaker 1: Nevertheless, it almost seems like Billy Corgan brings you into

598
00:28:45,476 --> 00:28:46,996
Speaker 1: his family and then torture. Shit.

599
00:28:48,236 --> 00:28:50,236
Speaker 3: Maybe maybe it's a little bit of a shadow of

600
00:28:50,236 --> 00:28:51,636
Speaker 3: what he experienced himself.

601
00:28:51,716 --> 00:28:52,236
Speaker 1: Yeah.

602
00:28:52,356 --> 00:28:54,756
Speaker 3: So this song, though, to be clear, is it's a

603
00:28:54,796 --> 00:28:58,436
Speaker 3: one hundred percent Billy Corgan composition, And as we go

604
00:28:58,476 --> 00:29:01,356
Speaker 3: through the instruments, we'll talk about who actually was performing

605
00:29:01,396 --> 00:29:05,276
Speaker 3: these parts because it might be a little surprising. So interestingly,

606
00:29:05,756 --> 00:29:08,396
Speaker 3: Billy wrote this song pretty quickly. He says, I wrote

607
00:29:08,436 --> 00:29:10,156
Speaker 3: Tara Brock and half an hour. I heard it one

608
00:29:10,196 --> 00:29:12,076
Speaker 3: day while I was driving up the road. It was

609
00:29:12,116 --> 00:29:13,956
Speaker 3: one of the last songs I wrote before we did

610
00:29:13,996 --> 00:29:15,836
Speaker 3: the album. The thing is, there's parts of me that

611
00:29:15,836 --> 00:29:17,756
Speaker 3: wonder what would have happened if I spent four hours

612
00:29:17,756 --> 00:29:20,236
Speaker 3: writing it and not done something else. So it's interesting

613
00:29:20,276 --> 00:29:23,516
Speaker 3: his dichotomy between like being somebody who spends hours and

614
00:29:23,556 --> 00:29:26,276
Speaker 3: hours and hours like tracking guitars one at a time

615
00:29:26,276 --> 00:29:29,116
Speaker 3: and getting that perfect sound, but his songwriting process, it

616
00:29:29,116 --> 00:29:31,276
Speaker 3: sounds like he really quick, aims to be quick. The

617
00:29:31,356 --> 00:29:33,516
Speaker 3: quicker the better. Yeah, it is the first song. It

618
00:29:33,636 --> 00:29:38,076
Speaker 3: opens the album, and it's a pretty epic tune starting

619
00:29:38,116 --> 00:29:42,356
Speaker 3: with and kind of based around Jimmy Chamberlain's ridiculously cool

620
00:29:42,436 --> 00:29:45,636
Speaker 3: drum part. So he might be my favorite living drummer,

621
00:29:45,676 --> 00:29:48,076
Speaker 3: and he is a powerful rock drummer, but he's got

622
00:29:48,076 --> 00:29:52,076
Speaker 3: this incredibly light touch. So he's his influences when he

623
00:29:52,076 --> 00:29:53,956
Speaker 3: talks about them, and some great interviews out there, he's

624
00:29:53,956 --> 00:29:56,396
Speaker 3: always mentioning like Gene Krupa and Buddy Rich. You know,

625
00:29:56,916 --> 00:29:59,156
Speaker 3: I can see that John Bottom's in the mix too,

626
00:29:59,196 --> 00:30:01,996
Speaker 3: But like Jazz is a huge part as a drummer.

627
00:30:02,116 --> 00:30:05,756
Speaker 1: You can tell, you can tell by his versatility. Yeah,

628
00:30:05,796 --> 00:30:07,396
Speaker 1: and some of the and some of the fills that

629
00:30:07,436 --> 00:30:09,836
Speaker 1: he used, you could totally see that being like, you know,

630
00:30:09,916 --> 00:30:11,916
Speaker 1: like and now playing with Paul white Man, here comes

631
00:30:11,996 --> 00:30:12,636
Speaker 1: Jimmy Chamblin.

632
00:30:13,276 --> 00:30:15,356
Speaker 3: Well, without further ado, let's listen to some of the

633
00:30:15,396 --> 00:30:19,356
Speaker 3: isolated drum tracks from Chera Brock. First, I'll play the part,

634
00:30:19,436 --> 00:30:28,836
Speaker 3: and then I will play where it comes from, and

635
00:30:28,876 --> 00:30:31,036
Speaker 3: then he gets a little more intense and it does

636
00:30:31,116 --> 00:30:40,876
Speaker 3: the same thing but louder, and he does that Jon

637
00:30:40,956 --> 00:30:45,236
Speaker 3: Bonamy kind of fill there. And Billy Corgan has gone

638
00:30:45,236 --> 00:30:47,596
Speaker 3: on the record with how he was inspired for that

639
00:30:47,716 --> 00:30:59,036
Speaker 3: part by this that is by Tor and the snow

640
00:30:59,076 --> 00:31:02,196
Speaker 3: Dog by Rush from their nineteen seventy five album fly

641
00:31:02,316 --> 00:31:05,196
Speaker 3: by Night. So I'll just play for you Chera Brock

642
00:31:05,276 --> 00:31:07,436
Speaker 3: again with the guitars, so you can you know, having

643
00:31:07,476 --> 00:31:10,756
Speaker 3: heard Rush, you'll hear the entire piece. Now listen, just

644
00:31:10,796 --> 00:31:14,396
Speaker 3: the fact that Billy Corgan is referencing Rush, who might

645
00:31:14,396 --> 00:31:17,636
Speaker 3: be the like in nineteen ninety three ninety two, especially

646
00:31:18,236 --> 00:31:21,236
Speaker 3: the least cool band for this group of like his

647
00:31:21,276 --> 00:31:24,076
Speaker 3: cohort of Pavement and Nirvana. This is a band that

648
00:31:24,196 --> 00:31:28,396
Speaker 3: mud Honey used as an insult against their labelmate Soundgarden, saying,

649
00:31:28,436 --> 00:31:30,956
Speaker 3: you guys sound like Rush, Like it's the worst thing

650
00:31:30,996 --> 00:31:34,156
Speaker 3: you can say to anybody. And yet everyone secretly, especially

651
00:31:34,196 --> 00:31:36,996
Speaker 3: the drummers in this world, love Rush because Rush is

652
00:31:36,996 --> 00:31:40,516
Speaker 3: one of the great musical bands, and from a drummer's perspective,

653
00:31:40,516 --> 00:31:42,756
Speaker 3: Neil Peert is one of the greatest living well at

654
00:31:42,756 --> 00:31:46,796
Speaker 3: the time living drummers sadly passed away recently. But anyway,

655
00:31:46,796 --> 00:31:48,356
Speaker 3: I think it's quite funny that there's a rush. It's

656
00:31:48,356 --> 00:31:59,676
Speaker 3: not quite an interpolation, but so really cool connection there

657
00:31:59,716 --> 00:32:02,276
Speaker 3: and a funny one little tongue in cheek. This is

658
00:32:02,476 --> 00:32:05,196
Speaker 3: part and parcel of the song's DNA, which is about hey,

659
00:32:05,236 --> 00:32:09,116
Speaker 3: screw you gatekeepers, Hey screw you hipper than thou hipsters,

660
00:32:09,596 --> 00:32:11,676
Speaker 3: and which is a word that literally he uses in

661
00:32:11,716 --> 00:32:14,836
Speaker 3: the song. We'll be hearing shortly, so there's that bold

662
00:32:15,196 --> 00:32:18,796
Speaker 3: Rush reference, and then we have a little more Jimmy

663
00:32:18,876 --> 00:32:21,196
Speaker 3: Chamberlain love to deliver. Let's hear some more of what

664
00:32:21,236 --> 00:32:36,516
Speaker 3: he does in this song. He describes what he's doing

665
00:32:36,556 --> 00:32:39,196
Speaker 3: as a conversation between the high hat and the ride,

666
00:32:39,676 --> 00:32:41,796
Speaker 3: and there's all these ghost notes like the way he

667
00:32:41,836 --> 00:32:44,036
Speaker 3: thinks about how to make a drum part to me

668
00:32:44,116 --> 00:32:47,436
Speaker 3: is so it's so musical, and so it's about supporting

669
00:32:47,516 --> 00:32:50,396
Speaker 3: the song and it's just a beautiful thing to listen to.

670
00:32:50,756 --> 00:32:51,196
Speaker 1: I love it.

671
00:32:51,436 --> 00:32:52,796
Speaker 2: And let's start adding stuff back in.

672
00:32:52,756 --> 00:32:54,716
Speaker 3: So you can hear it in the context of the song.

673
00:33:04,956 --> 00:33:06,996
Speaker 3: The lightness of touch is what I keep coming back to.

674
00:33:07,076 --> 00:33:10,236
Speaker 3: How he manages to be heavy and strong and forceful

675
00:33:10,236 --> 00:33:13,156
Speaker 3: and authoritative as a drummer, and yet there's like lightness

676
00:33:13,196 --> 00:33:16,116
Speaker 3: going on. There's like an airiness to the hyats being

677
00:33:16,156 --> 00:33:17,556
Speaker 3: a little open, and the ghost.

678
00:33:17,276 --> 00:33:18,036
Speaker 2: Notes on the snare.

679
00:33:18,196 --> 00:33:19,996
Speaker 3: I don't know, man, just my drummer brain gets so

680
00:33:20,076 --> 00:33:23,036
Speaker 3: turned on by everything he does, so inspired by it. Absolutely,

681
00:33:23,516 --> 00:33:27,276
Speaker 3: And here's the huhy part. So I'll play that for you.

682
00:33:27,316 --> 00:33:29,196
Speaker 3: Then I'll add some instruments back in. There's another one

683
00:33:29,196 --> 00:33:29,996
Speaker 3: of my favorite moments.

684
00:33:42,076 --> 00:33:42,956
Speaker 2: It's funny because.

685
00:33:42,796 --> 00:33:44,276
Speaker 1: I like that a lot. Well, yeah, what do you

686
00:33:44,316 --> 00:33:44,836
Speaker 1: like about that?

687
00:33:44,956 --> 00:33:47,156
Speaker 3: I mean, I'll play with some context and let's get

688
00:33:47,156 --> 00:34:01,436
Speaker 3: into it. I have, by the way, spent many hours

689
00:34:01,476 --> 00:34:04,316
Speaker 3: of my life playing along to this record, just air

690
00:34:04,436 --> 00:34:06,716
Speaker 3: jarming along to it, so I know where every little moment,

691
00:34:06,756 --> 00:34:08,636
Speaker 3: every fill is and if I were to try and

692
00:34:08,636 --> 00:34:10,396
Speaker 3: sit down and it, you'd be like, that does not

693
00:34:10,516 --> 00:34:13,276
Speaker 3: sound like Jimmy Chamberlin. You are playing the parts, but

694
00:34:13,356 --> 00:34:15,196
Speaker 3: you are not playing them the way he does it,

695
00:34:15,716 --> 00:34:18,476
Speaker 3: which is very interesting. This is just a snare fill.

696
00:34:19,156 --> 00:34:22,156
Speaker 3: And look, we've come off of an episode recently where

697
00:34:22,196 --> 00:34:24,036
Speaker 3: we were talking about the Tears for Fears. I mean,

698
00:34:24,036 --> 00:34:27,476
Speaker 3: it's a drum machine. But by contrast, where because it's

699
00:34:27,476 --> 00:34:29,756
Speaker 3: a drum machine, the sound is the same, it's just

700
00:34:29,836 --> 00:34:31,956
Speaker 3: a little bit louder. When the film comes in dot

701
00:34:32,316 --> 00:34:34,356
Speaker 3: dot dot do at the beginning, I've head over yells

702
00:34:34,756 --> 00:34:37,676
Speaker 3: here is by this is the opposite of that. This

703
00:34:37,756 --> 00:34:41,556
Speaker 3: is a great drummer who's carefully selected his snare and

704
00:34:41,596 --> 00:34:44,436
Speaker 3: the snareheaded, the miking and everything, and the way he

705
00:34:44,476 --> 00:34:54,596
Speaker 3: plays this snare fill is extraordinarily artful and specific. It's

706
00:34:54,676 --> 00:34:56,636
Speaker 3: just a little moment, but it's got so much sauce

707
00:34:56,636 --> 00:34:56,876
Speaker 3: in it.

708
00:34:57,076 --> 00:34:59,396
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it definitely asks to the emotion of the song.

709
00:34:59,436 --> 00:35:02,356
Speaker 3: Oh absolutely, this is kind of a similar moment. This

710
00:35:02,476 --> 00:35:04,396
Speaker 3: is I'll add in the vocals so you can hear

711
00:35:04,436 --> 00:35:05,036
Speaker 3: where this is.

712
00:35:07,916 --> 00:35:18,876
Speaker 4: Li. So so what's interesting, and it's relevant to this point

713
00:35:19,196 --> 00:35:20,356
Speaker 4: is that in the studio.

714
00:35:20,676 --> 00:35:23,356
Speaker 3: I'm already kind of given the secret away. But the

715
00:35:23,396 --> 00:35:26,316
Speaker 3: band performs as a unit of four. They lay down

716
00:35:26,356 --> 00:35:28,916
Speaker 3: the drum tracks. That's how this record was made. Jimmy

717
00:35:28,956 --> 00:35:32,556
Speaker 3: Chamberlain needed understandably for their to feel like a band,

718
00:35:32,836 --> 00:35:35,716
Speaker 3: So they all performed all the songs together, and then

719
00:35:35,916 --> 00:35:39,476
Speaker 3: they erased all the musical parts that weren't the drums,

720
00:35:39,836 --> 00:35:42,276
Speaker 3: and then Billy went in and re recorded those parts.

721
00:35:42,716 --> 00:35:47,676
Speaker 3: But while this was happening, Jimmy Chamberlain's musical drumming brain

722
00:35:48,316 --> 00:35:52,036
Speaker 3: is hearing what is happening in every instrument and reacting

723
00:35:52,076 --> 00:35:54,716
Speaker 3: to it in a way that only a drummer of

724
00:35:54,796 --> 00:35:57,956
Speaker 3: his caliber can because all the little subtleties of when

725
00:35:58,196 --> 00:36:01,996
Speaker 3: what the vocals are doing rhythmically, and it is enhancing

726
00:36:02,036 --> 00:36:04,636
Speaker 3: them in some ways, giving them space to shine, in

727
00:36:04,676 --> 00:36:07,796
Speaker 3: other ways duplicating the same rhythm maybe. So all of

728
00:36:07,836 --> 00:36:10,436
Speaker 3: these choices are so part of what makes him a

729
00:36:10,556 --> 00:36:12,636
Speaker 3: very incredible and artful drummer.

730
00:36:12,276 --> 00:36:16,516
Speaker 1: Absolutely and specifically a rock drummer. You know, because I

731
00:36:16,516 --> 00:36:19,836
Speaker 1: think that you know, we've talked about on the show.

732
00:36:19,876 --> 00:36:26,356
Speaker 1: My earliest appreciation for drums was Animal from the Muppet Chef,

733
00:36:26,796 --> 00:36:32,636
Speaker 1: and then from the beatles, and then I got into ato'

734
00:36:32,636 --> 00:36:36,836
Speaker 1: eights and drum machines. It's interesting because hearing you talk

735
00:36:36,876 --> 00:36:39,636
Speaker 1: about the emotion of these drums, that occurs to me.

736
00:36:40,156 --> 00:36:43,316
Speaker 1: Most of my drum appreciation, even as a drummer myself,

737
00:36:43,796 --> 00:36:45,716
Speaker 1: came from the effect that it gave you. You know what

738
00:36:45,756 --> 00:36:48,316
Speaker 1: I mean, and you know, not to beat a dead horse,

739
00:36:48,396 --> 00:36:51,636
Speaker 1: but I think that when the drum pattern changes a lot,

740
00:36:51,996 --> 00:36:54,156
Speaker 1: you know, that's something I get really excited about, you know.

741
00:36:55,076 --> 00:36:56,756
Speaker 1: But then again I like that bunk and a lot

742
00:36:56,756 --> 00:36:57,716
Speaker 1: of times their songs are for.

743
00:36:57,876 --> 00:37:00,676
Speaker 3: Hey, they're both satisfying in different ways. Sometimes there's like

744
00:37:00,716 --> 00:37:02,596
Speaker 3: a one bar loop or a half bar loop in

745
00:37:02,676 --> 00:37:03,436
Speaker 3: daft punk.

746
00:37:03,356 --> 00:37:04,036
Speaker 2: Or a two bar loop.

747
00:37:04,116 --> 00:37:07,036
Speaker 3: The satisfaction comes from it being repetitious and it kind.

748
00:37:06,836 --> 00:37:09,596
Speaker 2: Of a drone can put you in a train, a trance.

749
00:37:09,756 --> 00:37:12,236
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, it's it's almost you know, to

750
00:37:12,276 --> 00:37:14,236
Speaker 1: go back to the Black Church. Like. Part of the

751
00:37:14,236 --> 00:37:17,716
Speaker 1: reason those songs are always like that wasnotic. They're trying

752
00:37:17,716 --> 00:37:18,676
Speaker 1: to whip you up in song.

753
00:37:19,076 --> 00:37:21,756
Speaker 3: And then by contrast this song, by the way, it's

754
00:37:21,756 --> 00:37:24,396
Speaker 3: not only is the drum part changing from moment to moment,

755
00:37:24,396 --> 00:37:27,196
Speaker 3: because the human drummer Jimmy Chamberlin is playing it, but

756
00:37:27,276 --> 00:37:30,316
Speaker 3: also the tempo's kind of rushing and slowing down. Suddenly

757
00:37:30,396 --> 00:37:33,036
Speaker 3: there's no click track in this. This is played to

758
00:37:33,396 --> 00:37:36,356
Speaker 3: Jimmy's internal metronome, which during the song kind of gets

759
00:37:36,356 --> 00:37:37,716
Speaker 3: a little faster and then slows.

760
00:37:37,476 --> 00:37:40,636
Speaker 1: Out a little bit. Jimmy's internal metrono, and also Billy's

761
00:37:40,676 --> 00:37:43,276
Speaker 1: emotional state given where he is in the song, whether

762
00:37:43,276 --> 00:37:45,036
Speaker 1: he's on the verse or whether he's on the chorus.

763
00:37:45,236 --> 00:37:48,796
Speaker 1: H you know, I love the bass in this Songea,

764
00:37:48,916 --> 00:37:51,876
Speaker 1: and I feel like there's a story here because the

765
00:37:51,916 --> 00:37:53,716
Speaker 1: basis is usually darcy, is it not.

766
00:37:54,436 --> 00:37:56,956
Speaker 3: Yeah, in the early nineties there's this phenomenon of like

767
00:37:57,036 --> 00:37:59,836
Speaker 3: the female bass player and in otherwise male band. You've

768
00:37:59,836 --> 00:38:02,076
Speaker 3: got like Kim Dial and the Pixies. You've got another

769
00:38:02,156 --> 00:38:05,436
Speaker 3: Kim Kim Gordon from Sonic Youth. We had Debbie Googe

770
00:38:05,636 --> 00:38:07,476
Speaker 3: in My Bloody Valentine was one of two. We have

771
00:38:07,516 --> 00:38:10,196
Speaker 3: Tina from the Talking Heads. There this sort of legacy

772
00:38:10,276 --> 00:38:10,676
Speaker 3: of like.

773
00:38:10,676 --> 00:38:12,676
Speaker 1: The game was one of my favorite right right.

774
00:38:13,276 --> 00:38:15,956
Speaker 3: I think that Billy was kind of wanting that visually,

775
00:38:16,196 --> 00:38:18,396
Speaker 3: but in the studio he didn't need it so much.

776
00:38:18,836 --> 00:38:20,996
Speaker 3: I don't know that Darcy was really giving him what

777
00:38:21,036 --> 00:38:24,516
Speaker 3: he needed. Jimmy has explicitly talked about how Darcy's rhythm

778
00:38:24,596 --> 00:38:26,596
Speaker 3: wasn't really working for him as a drummer. She was

779
00:38:26,596 --> 00:38:29,116
Speaker 3: a little Nike not where he was in terms of

780
00:38:29,156 --> 00:38:33,116
Speaker 3: the beat. So they performed in order to get Jimmy's

781
00:38:33,156 --> 00:38:36,956
Speaker 3: drums down. But then the bass was erased. The Darcy

782
00:38:36,996 --> 00:38:39,596
Speaker 3: Retzki take was erased, and Billy went in and this

783
00:38:39,636 --> 00:38:53,516
Speaker 3: is what he played. And just one more thing on

784
00:38:53,556 --> 00:38:56,396
Speaker 3: this issue, Like Billy, like he does with so many

785
00:38:56,436 --> 00:38:58,916
Speaker 3: things we've we have learned on this episode, wrestled a

786
00:38:58,956 --> 00:39:01,396
Speaker 3: lot with the decision to replace the bass parts, and

787
00:39:01,436 --> 00:39:05,036
Speaker 3: in fact, in later years he expressed regret over what

788
00:39:05,116 --> 00:39:06,996
Speaker 3: he did by taking them off the track. He said, look,

789
00:39:07,196 --> 00:39:09,876
Speaker 3: musicianship and technical vision are finding good, but at some

790
00:39:09,916 --> 00:39:11,836
Speaker 3: point you cross the line. No matter how good numb

791
00:39:11,876 --> 00:39:13,636
Speaker 3: you got, you got, you cut away the gut of

792
00:39:13,676 --> 00:39:16,116
Speaker 3: your band. And he has really rustled over the years

793
00:39:16,116 --> 00:39:18,556
Speaker 3: with like how to make these other members of the

794
00:39:18,556 --> 00:39:20,756
Speaker 3: band feel like they're in a band and not the

795
00:39:20,796 --> 00:39:24,196
Speaker 3: Billy Corgan experience. And I think he's really got a

796
00:39:24,276 --> 00:39:27,316
Speaker 3: dynamic of like he wants to control the sound he

797
00:39:27,316 --> 00:39:29,516
Speaker 3: wants to control everything, but he doesn't want to control

798
00:39:29,556 --> 00:39:31,796
Speaker 3: everything and does it's a real push pull.

799
00:39:31,556 --> 00:39:33,036
Speaker 2: With him through the entire career of the band.

800
00:39:33,716 --> 00:39:36,396
Speaker 3: Yeah, because Darcy wasn't happy.

801
00:39:36,556 --> 00:39:40,196
Speaker 1: Well, listen, we like this band. Yes, every story that

802
00:39:40,276 --> 00:39:42,956
Speaker 1: we're hearing makes it sound like it's really hard to

803
00:39:42,956 --> 00:39:46,636
Speaker 1: work with Billy Cory. Yeah. I think, and we can

804
00:39:46,676 --> 00:39:50,836
Speaker 1: probably imagine why James and Darcy and Jimmy why why

805
00:39:50,876 --> 00:39:52,476
Speaker 1: the band does eventually wrote.

806
00:39:52,196 --> 00:39:54,876
Speaker 3: Their own They come and go and actually James, both

807
00:39:54,996 --> 00:39:57,196
Speaker 3: James and Jimmy are back in the current touring.

808
00:39:57,436 --> 00:40:00,676
Speaker 1: Yeah, iteration of it's like, okay, well, you know, we're

809
00:40:00,756 --> 00:40:04,516
Speaker 1: not under any illusion of who this guy is and

810
00:40:05,156 --> 00:40:06,116
Speaker 1: he has great ideas.

811
00:40:06,316 --> 00:40:09,756
Speaker 3: Yeah, and they know their place. They aren't considered I hope,

812
00:40:09,836 --> 00:40:12,676
Speaker 3: I mean your place. I mean, look, the facts are

813
00:40:12,756 --> 00:40:15,276
Speaker 3: the facts, and they aren't songwriters, so they're not making

814
00:40:15,316 --> 00:40:18,196
Speaker 3: the untold millions that Billy has made on the publishing.

815
00:40:18,476 --> 00:40:21,356
Speaker 1: It's tough when one guy has all the publishing and

816
00:40:21,476 --> 00:40:24,396
Speaker 1: is making a mass sum of money and you're more

817
00:40:24,476 --> 00:40:26,236
Speaker 1: than the right. Can we go out on tour because

818
00:40:26,396 --> 00:40:29,116
Speaker 1: I wouldn't mind like paying the rent, Like that's not

819
00:40:29,156 --> 00:40:31,076
Speaker 1: to say anybody in this band is suffering like that,

820
00:40:31,156 --> 00:40:34,196
Speaker 1: but like still, I think we can understand where that

821
00:40:34,236 --> 00:40:35,476
Speaker 1: makes conversations awkward.

822
00:40:35,556 --> 00:40:36,156
Speaker 2: Yeah, it does.

823
00:40:36,196 --> 00:40:37,796
Speaker 3: There is a power and balance, let's just put it

824
00:40:37,796 --> 00:40:40,476
Speaker 3: that way. Billy kind of holds all the cards in

825
00:40:40,556 --> 00:40:42,756
Speaker 3: terms of what happens with this band. But he has

826
00:40:42,796 --> 00:40:45,516
Speaker 3: been loyal and loyalty. He's talked on the Howard Stern

827
00:40:45,556 --> 00:40:48,636
Speaker 3: Show about how loyalty coming from this broken background, how

828
00:40:48,956 --> 00:40:51,116
Speaker 3: in him trying to create this family. He does place

829
00:40:51,156 --> 00:40:54,356
Speaker 3: a lot of importance on being loyal and having loyalty

830
00:40:54,396 --> 00:40:56,516
Speaker 3: and the fact that he is currently literally on tour

831
00:40:56,596 --> 00:40:59,716
Speaker 3: as we make this episode with James and Jimmy again,

832
00:41:00,036 --> 00:41:01,676
Speaker 3: he is really trying to keep this family team now

833
00:41:01,676 --> 00:41:05,116
Speaker 3: with Darcy. Darcy unfortunately is out of the picture. Okay, Yeah,

834
00:41:05,116 --> 00:41:08,036
Speaker 3: there have been some leaked text messages that you know,

835
00:41:08,036 --> 00:41:10,076
Speaker 3: it sounds like she's a little bit in a difficult

836
00:41:10,076 --> 00:41:12,756
Speaker 3: spot recently in her life. But I think Billy has

837
00:41:12,756 --> 00:41:15,156
Speaker 3: tried to make it work, and for various reasons, it didn't.

838
00:41:15,396 --> 00:41:16,516
Speaker 3: But we do love you, Darcy.

839
00:41:16,556 --> 00:41:18,116
Speaker 1: If you're out there, yeah, and if you want to

840
00:41:18,156 --> 00:41:21,636
Speaker 1: give your side of the story, call us tell me

841
00:41:21,676 --> 00:41:24,436
Speaker 1: about the guitarist because they are such a part of

842
00:41:24,476 --> 00:41:26,556
Speaker 1: the signature Smashing Pumpkins.

843
00:41:26,116 --> 00:41:28,436
Speaker 3: Sound absolutely, my friend. Well let's see, let's start with

844
00:41:28,596 --> 00:41:32,236
Speaker 3: the pumpkin chord. The song begins with this big wall

845
00:41:32,316 --> 00:41:34,276
Speaker 3: of guitars and then on the top of it. This

846
00:41:34,356 --> 00:41:36,356
Speaker 3: is a big part of the sound of this band

847
00:41:36,796 --> 00:41:39,276
Speaker 3: is you will frequently have a big wall of sound,

848
00:41:39,276 --> 00:41:42,436
Speaker 3: maybe riffing, and then melodically on top there's something that

849
00:41:42,476 --> 00:41:45,116
Speaker 3: almost sounds Indian. It almost has this raga feel to it,

850
00:41:45,556 --> 00:41:47,556
Speaker 3: and it's it sounds well.

851
00:41:47,596 --> 00:41:48,116
Speaker 2: In fact, it's.

852
00:41:47,996 --> 00:41:50,516
Speaker 3: Funny you should say that because Billy has talked about

853
00:41:50,516 --> 00:41:52,996
Speaker 3: how he wants to did this experiment where he played

854
00:41:52,996 --> 00:41:55,196
Speaker 3: Black Sabbath in the one room and Rabbi Shankhar in

855
00:41:55,236 --> 00:41:58,156
Speaker 3: the other room, and that actually is a perfect metaphor

856
00:41:58,276 --> 00:42:00,316
Speaker 3: or an analogy, whatever the right word is for for

857
00:42:00,396 --> 00:42:02,556
Speaker 3: the sound of the Pumpkins. They have this big riffy

858
00:42:02,716 --> 00:42:06,716
Speaker 3: underpinning and then on top of it this beautiful melodic

859
00:42:06,756 --> 00:42:09,516
Speaker 3: sound which is coming from basically playing an oc the

860
00:42:09,556 --> 00:42:11,996
Speaker 3: same note as an octave up and down the fret

861
00:42:12,116 --> 00:42:13,516
Speaker 3: and that's what we're about to hear. He calls it

862
00:42:13,516 --> 00:42:16,236
Speaker 3: the pumpkin chord, but he's borrowed it from Jimmy Hendrix,

863
00:42:16,436 --> 00:42:18,116
Speaker 3: and I'll play after I play this, I'll play the

864
00:42:18,196 --> 00:42:19,956
Speaker 3: Jimmy Hendrix song that I think he was thinking of.

865
00:42:29,596 --> 00:42:32,356
Speaker 3: And what I'm specifically referring to is that duh. So

866
00:42:32,436 --> 00:42:34,516
Speaker 3: that's a melody, but he's playing it on the octave,

867
00:42:34,596 --> 00:42:36,956
Speaker 3: so it's two notes of the melody, one lower, one higher,

868
00:42:36,996 --> 00:42:40,236
Speaker 3: and it just thickens up the sound and again creates

869
00:42:40,236 --> 00:42:43,196
Speaker 3: this kind of Indian raga feel mixed with I mean,

870
00:42:43,196 --> 00:42:45,436
Speaker 3: I think that's what Hendrix is doing, and I'll say

871
00:42:45,476 --> 00:42:46,396
Speaker 3: that sounds very.

872
00:42:46,276 --> 00:42:49,876
Speaker 1: I can definitely hear the Jimmy Hendrix influence on that

873
00:42:49,916 --> 00:42:50,956
Speaker 1: once you isolate it.

874
00:42:51,116 --> 00:42:54,396
Speaker 3: So this Jimmy Hendrix song uses that same way of

875
00:42:54,476 --> 00:42:55,316
Speaker 3: creating the melody.

876
00:42:55,356 --> 00:42:56,236
Speaker 2: It's not uncommon.

877
00:42:56,276 --> 00:42:58,596
Speaker 3: In fact, both Billy corgan And says we got this

878
00:42:58,636 --> 00:43:00,916
Speaker 3: from Hendrix, but he probably got it from West Montgomery.

879
00:43:01,036 --> 00:43:02,836
Speaker 3: It's a thing you do on guitar, but it's also

880
00:43:02,836 --> 00:43:05,596
Speaker 3: a very distinctive sound, and here's a song where.

881
00:43:05,516 --> 00:43:19,316
Speaker 2: Jimy Hendrix uses it. So Jimmy's doing the same thing.

882
00:43:19,596 --> 00:43:21,916
Speaker 3: He's got the octave and he's playing the melody, but

883
00:43:21,956 --> 00:43:25,116
Speaker 3: it's got a thicker tone and it's got a little Indiana.

884
00:43:25,436 --> 00:43:28,356
Speaker 1: Who would have thought that Wes Montgomery was the link

885
00:43:28,396 --> 00:43:32,876
Speaker 1: between Jimmy Hendrix smashing pumpkins and Doja Cat So so cool,

886
00:43:33,036 --> 00:43:34,156
Speaker 1: kind of crazy, so cool.

887
00:43:34,276 --> 00:43:35,756
Speaker 2: That was Third Stone from the Sun, by the way,

888
00:43:35,796 --> 00:43:37,116
Speaker 2: from are you experiencing?

889
00:43:37,236 --> 00:43:39,796
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, give us more guitars.

890
00:43:40,316 --> 00:43:43,916
Speaker 3: So, like I said before, this record has some insane overdubs.

891
00:43:44,196 --> 00:43:47,236
Speaker 3: One of the tricks of recording and mixing a big

892
00:43:47,276 --> 00:43:49,716
Speaker 3: stack of guitars is you've got to find room for

893
00:43:49,836 --> 00:43:51,876
Speaker 3: all of them where they just become this big mess,

894
00:43:52,236 --> 00:43:54,636
Speaker 3: this big They're all in the same frequency range, so

895
00:43:54,636 --> 00:43:56,636
Speaker 3: you have to cut the frequencies and do this and

896
00:43:56,676 --> 00:43:59,396
Speaker 3: do that. So many many hours in the pre pro

897
00:43:59,516 --> 00:44:03,836
Speaker 3: tool era went into doing that for this result, which

898
00:44:03,956 --> 00:44:07,036
Speaker 3: I think was worth it because it arguably changed the

899
00:44:07,076 --> 00:44:22,396
Speaker 3: sound of alternative radio. I mean, that just does something

900
00:44:22,436 --> 00:44:23,676
Speaker 3: to my serotonin.

901
00:44:23,916 --> 00:44:28,196
Speaker 1: It's great. I'm gonna do something that, uh, some of

902
00:44:28,236 --> 00:44:31,836
Speaker 1: our listeners, it sounds a lot like this to me.

903
00:44:42,236 --> 00:44:47,396
Speaker 2: I want to fly away, Yeah, yeah.

904
00:44:47,156 --> 00:44:53,316
Speaker 1: I look, you can.

905
00:44:52,276 --> 00:44:56,156
Speaker 3: Sim Look, I'm just gonna say this riff riffing, riff,

906
00:44:56,236 --> 00:45:00,836
Speaker 3: rock like crunchy guitars that have catchy riffs, meaning the

907
00:45:00,956 --> 00:45:03,276
Speaker 3: guitar is playing a figure, like a kind of a

908
00:45:03,316 --> 00:45:04,916
Speaker 3: melodic figure that you walk away humming.

909
00:45:05,356 --> 00:45:05,556
Speaker 1: Right.

910
00:45:05,876 --> 00:45:08,596
Speaker 3: I think that jim this goes back to Jimmy. It

911
00:45:08,636 --> 00:45:11,636
Speaker 3: goes back so like the Kinks. I would say, right around, yeah.

912
00:45:11,476 --> 00:45:15,036
Speaker 1: But specifically play the part you just played again, just

913
00:45:15,196 --> 00:45:16,916
Speaker 1: right before I played the Lenny, just play that part.

914
00:45:26,036 --> 00:45:29,196
Speaker 1: Oh oh oh yeah. I mean like I'm just saying

915
00:45:29,236 --> 00:45:32,596
Speaker 1: that I think that Lenny. I'm not saying he stolen guys.

916
00:45:32,676 --> 00:45:35,156
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I'm so scared. But I do think that,

917
00:45:35,316 --> 00:45:37,956
Speaker 1: like there's just I think everybody to a certain extent

918
00:45:38,036 --> 00:45:41,676
Speaker 1: is chasing Jimmy when I hear that fuzzy guitar that

919
00:45:41,756 --> 00:45:44,276
Speaker 1: you can like totally hum along to. And I don't

920
00:45:44,316 --> 00:45:45,556
Speaker 1: know that I give it. I don't know if I

921
00:45:45,876 --> 00:45:47,476
Speaker 1: love the Kings. I don't know if I hear that.

922
00:45:47,516 --> 00:45:49,156
Speaker 1: When I hear the Kings, I definitely hear that. When

923
00:45:49,196 --> 00:45:51,236
Speaker 1: I hear Jimmy, I hear what you're hearing. I think

924
00:45:51,236 --> 00:45:53,756
Speaker 1: in part there's some shared chords going on there. These

925
00:45:53,756 --> 00:45:56,356
Speaker 1: are Circle of fifth CE chords going on. They're in

926
00:45:56,396 --> 00:45:58,476
Speaker 1: a slightly different order. And if you add to.

927
00:45:58,596 --> 00:46:01,476
Speaker 3: That the sound of the guitar, Yeah, fuzz guitar, and

928
00:46:01,516 --> 00:46:04,396
Speaker 3: then maybe there's maybe a rhythmically similar thing, although I

929
00:46:04,436 --> 00:46:05,596
Speaker 3: think the Lenny's a little faster.

930
00:46:05,796 --> 00:46:05,996
Speaker 1: Look.

931
00:46:06,116 --> 00:46:09,076
Speaker 3: All of these things evoke a similar I would say

932
00:46:09,236 --> 00:46:12,236
Speaker 3: shared source. I was a shared group of sources, which

933
00:46:12,276 --> 00:46:14,556
Speaker 3: is they have some shared records in their collection. I'm

934
00:46:14,556 --> 00:46:17,756
Speaker 3: sure Lenny, they both have late Beatles records.

935
00:46:17,796 --> 00:46:19,996
Speaker 1: They both have King the nineties guys, So there's still

936
00:46:20,076 --> 00:46:22,156
Speaker 1: retro happening in the nineties. I do feel like in

937
00:46:22,156 --> 00:46:23,836
Speaker 1: the nineties a lot of groups were going back to

938
00:46:23,836 --> 00:46:26,196
Speaker 1: the bands in the sixties quite a bit.

939
00:46:26,556 --> 00:46:28,436
Speaker 2: Well, Lenny certainly is one of those guys, right.

940
00:46:28,276 --> 00:46:32,036
Speaker 1: Well for sure, And like you said, Billy's going back

941
00:46:32,036 --> 00:46:34,156
Speaker 1: and listening to old bands. I think you know, they're

942
00:46:34,196 --> 00:46:37,196
Speaker 1: all listening to old bands in the nineties in ways

943
00:46:37,196 --> 00:46:39,636
Speaker 1: that I think crime bands are not listening to bands

944
00:46:39,676 --> 00:46:42,756
Speaker 1: in the sixties. So you know, by the way, the

945
00:46:42,796 --> 00:46:45,396
Speaker 1: sixties was really having a moment because the Beatles have

946
00:46:45,516 --> 00:46:48,836
Speaker 1: the anthology CD comes out with Free as a Bird

947
00:46:48,876 --> 00:46:53,196
Speaker 1: and some new material. Austin Powers is in theaters. I

948
00:46:53,236 --> 00:46:55,396
Speaker 1: just feel like even some of those garbage songs, they

949
00:46:55,396 --> 00:46:58,636
Speaker 1: were like redoing can't seem to make you mine. By

950
00:46:58,636 --> 00:47:02,396
Speaker 1: the seeds, you know, garage, Yeah, garage and fuzzy sort

951
00:47:02,436 --> 00:47:03,996
Speaker 1: of like want to be Jimmy. All that stuff was

952
00:47:03,996 --> 00:47:04,716
Speaker 1: really back in the night.

953
00:47:04,716 --> 00:47:06,676
Speaker 3: Well, you're right to make that connection, because besides the

954
00:47:06,756 --> 00:47:12,596
Speaker 3: Jimmy Hendricks chord I, the prior record Gish was very visually,

955
00:47:12,676 --> 00:47:15,996
Speaker 3: certainly and even sonically, there's a lot of psychedelia coming

956
00:47:15,996 --> 00:47:16,356
Speaker 3: into them.

957
00:47:16,636 --> 00:47:17,076
Speaker 2: To play there.

958
00:47:17,156 --> 00:47:19,676
Speaker 3: Yeah, And funny that you mentioned it too, because in

959
00:47:19,716 --> 00:47:22,716
Speaker 3: the solo which I'll play it for you now, Billy

960
00:47:22,796 --> 00:47:24,796
Speaker 3: in the liner notes talks about how part of the

961
00:47:24,796 --> 00:47:27,396
Speaker 3: influence for this was a different sixties song, and I'll

962
00:47:27,676 --> 00:47:29,156
Speaker 3: I'll play you the solo first and then I'll play

963
00:47:29,196 --> 00:47:32,116
Speaker 3: you what he alludes to being where he got some

964
00:47:32,196 --> 00:47:35,076
Speaker 3: of the idea for the solo, which, by the way,

965
00:47:35,236 --> 00:47:38,396
Speaker 3: this guitar solo at one point ranked number ninety seven

966
00:47:38,396 --> 00:47:40,796
Speaker 3: and Guitar World's list of the one hundred greatest guitar

967
00:47:40,876 --> 00:47:41,716
Speaker 3: solos of all Time.

968
00:47:42,276 --> 00:47:44,116
Speaker 2: So, without further ado, let's play it.

969
00:47:58,356 --> 00:48:00,796
Speaker 3: I mean, that's only that's part one of the two

970
00:48:00,796 --> 00:48:03,156
Speaker 3: part solo. But like right there, there are some crazy

971
00:48:03,196 --> 00:48:03,916
Speaker 3: sounds going on.

972
00:48:04,876 --> 00:48:05,716
Speaker 2: So cool.

973
00:48:06,236 --> 00:48:08,796
Speaker 3: So reading from the liner notes in the twenty eleven

974
00:48:09,156 --> 00:48:12,036
Speaker 3: to share this record, Billy says, quote the solo is

975
00:48:12,156 --> 00:48:14,836
Speaker 3: uncorked down from the gentle glades of Itchi Coop Park.

976
00:48:15,276 --> 00:48:17,636
Speaker 3: So this is his wink and nudge to those of

977
00:48:17,716 --> 00:48:20,236
Speaker 3: us who know the Small Faces. He's talking about this

978
00:48:20,316 --> 00:48:23,916
Speaker 3: moment from this song. This is Small Faces, Itchy Coop Park,

979
00:48:24,036 --> 00:48:26,516
Speaker 3: nineteen sixty seven. And listen to the sound he's I

980
00:48:26,516 --> 00:48:29,196
Speaker 3: think referring to the flange sound, which at the time

981
00:48:29,356 --> 00:48:30,076
Speaker 3: was unusual.

982
00:48:34,596 --> 00:48:45,316
Speaker 1: This, I mean that had to blow your brain if

983
00:48:45,316 --> 00:48:48,436
Speaker 1: you were listening to that, you know, smoking pot, yeah,

984
00:48:48,476 --> 00:48:50,516
Speaker 1: smoking grass in nineteen sixty seven.

985
00:48:50,596 --> 00:48:53,076
Speaker 3: I still the sound of us a flange is still

986
00:48:53,236 --> 00:48:54,156
Speaker 3: so exciting to me.

987
00:48:54,276 --> 00:48:58,276
Speaker 1: Like the surly run filter. Yeah, you know, like these

988
00:48:58,276 --> 00:49:00,316
Speaker 1: are all These are also of my favorite.

989
00:48:59,956 --> 00:49:02,036
Speaker 3: Things because we love to play the parts that you

990
00:49:02,076 --> 00:49:04,356
Speaker 3: wouldn't notice necessarily in the mix. I've got a few

991
00:49:04,356 --> 00:49:06,556
Speaker 3: of those really delicious things in the guitars, just a

992
00:49:06,596 --> 00:49:09,236
Speaker 3: couple of quick things. I never noticed this until I

993
00:49:09,316 --> 00:49:11,796
Speaker 3: was in the stems. But right after that guitar solo

994
00:49:11,996 --> 00:49:23,316
Speaker 3: a little after, we get this sexy moment, and basically

995
00:49:23,316 --> 00:49:25,476
Speaker 3: what that's doing is it's echoing the let me out.

996
00:49:25,516 --> 00:49:27,956
Speaker 3: So I'll play it in the mix, right around the guitar.

997
00:49:30,356 --> 00:49:30,836
Speaker 1: Let me.

998
00:49:32,436 --> 00:49:36,356
Speaker 3: So that guitar is kind of echoing the let me

999
00:49:36,676 --> 00:49:40,236
Speaker 3: out another little delicious detail that you will forever hear

1000
00:49:40,516 --> 00:49:53,236
Speaker 3: when you listen to the song from now on, that

1001
00:49:53,276 --> 00:49:55,836
Speaker 3: little like it almost there's another Jimi Hendri's thing by

1002
00:49:55,836 --> 00:49:58,316
Speaker 3: the way that sounds like the beginning of Purple Haze.

1003
00:49:58,316 --> 00:50:06,236
Speaker 3: I think, yeah, so those are just some really fun

1004
00:50:06,596 --> 00:50:09,996
Speaker 3: guitar sounds. Again, they spent many, many hours coming up

1005
00:50:10,036 --> 00:50:13,236
Speaker 3: with different sounds and tracking layers and layers of guitars, layers,

1006
00:50:13,356 --> 00:50:14,276
Speaker 3: layers and layers.

1007
00:50:14,836 --> 00:50:16,636
Speaker 1: Would you say were the number of layers? There was

1008
00:50:16,636 --> 00:50:17,316
Speaker 1: like sixty layers.

1009
00:50:17,316 --> 00:50:19,556
Speaker 3: Well, they're up to forty on some song. I don't

1010
00:50:19,556 --> 00:50:21,396
Speaker 3: know how many were on this song, but I hear

1011
00:50:21,516 --> 00:50:22,156
Speaker 3: lots and lots.

1012
00:50:21,996 --> 00:50:26,276
Speaker 1: Of Obviously, it would not be Smashing Pumpkins without the

1013
00:50:26,356 --> 00:50:28,356
Speaker 1: vocals of a certain Billy.

1014
00:50:28,076 --> 00:50:29,796
Speaker 2: Corgan William Patrick Corgan.

1015
00:50:31,596 --> 00:50:35,236
Speaker 1: What can you play us from Billy's vocals that will

1016
00:50:35,236 --> 00:50:36,476
Speaker 1: ignite and excite.

1017
00:50:36,196 --> 00:50:39,996
Speaker 2: This Let's start from the top, freak.

1018
00:50:39,356 --> 00:50:48,236
Speaker 1: O, giv him, doesn't matter what you buy, Lead him

1019
00:50:48,516 --> 00:50:51,116
Speaker 1: now what's going on there? Because I think what I

1020
00:50:51,196 --> 00:50:53,116
Speaker 1: hear is, you know there's one layer where it's just

1021
00:50:53,236 --> 00:50:55,636
Speaker 1: him singing it, yeah, kind of like this and the

1022
00:50:58,196 --> 00:50:59,436
Speaker 1: like it's just whispers, right.

1023
00:50:59,316 --> 00:51:01,076
Speaker 3: That could be, that could be. I don't have it separated,

1024
00:51:01,116 --> 00:51:03,196
Speaker 3: but I'm hearing what you're hearing. There are definitely some layers.

1025
00:51:03,356 --> 00:51:04,916
Speaker 1: There's some layering going on, and he.

1026
00:51:04,876 --> 00:51:08,476
Speaker 3: Talks about how he likes like Ozzy's doubling technique has

1027
00:51:08,516 --> 00:51:09,556
Speaker 3: a very distinct That was.

1028
00:51:09,476 --> 00:51:11,996
Speaker 1: Gonna be my question, like, because even if he's not

1029
00:51:12,556 --> 00:51:15,476
Speaker 1: copying somebody, there's obviously like sort of like an approach

1030
00:51:16,196 --> 00:51:18,676
Speaker 1: of a previous artist who he's like, Oh, let's let's

1031
00:51:18,676 --> 00:51:19,716
Speaker 1: do it in that style.

1032
00:51:19,836 --> 00:51:20,436
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure.

1033
00:51:20,516 --> 00:51:22,996
Speaker 3: Yeah, And doubling is definitely a common thing across the board.

1034
00:51:22,996 --> 00:51:25,436
Speaker 3: But I think he specifically liked the way that the

1035
00:51:25,476 --> 00:51:27,276
Speaker 3: Ozzie vocals were doubled. And I think I hear some

1036
00:51:27,356 --> 00:51:27,916
Speaker 3: of that in there.

1037
00:51:28,076 --> 00:51:29,276
Speaker 1: Mental wounds, not.

1038
00:51:31,676 --> 00:51:38,516
Speaker 2: Like a bit shame I'm going after on a crazy tray.

1039
00:51:39,396 --> 00:51:42,956
Speaker 1: So Billy likes Ozzy and Jimmy. He likes he likes Jimmy, Ozzy,

1040
00:51:43,036 --> 00:51:43,996
Speaker 1: Jimmy and Billy.

1041
00:51:45,596 --> 00:51:47,756
Speaker 3: And you can hear him like his singing style is.

1042
00:51:47,796 --> 00:51:49,916
Speaker 3: Of course, he's got kind of two modes. I don't

1043
00:51:49,916 --> 00:51:52,356
Speaker 3: think I think he would agree with my assessment that

1044
00:51:52,396 --> 00:51:55,156
Speaker 3: he's not necessarily a technical singer, as he said, as

1045
00:51:55,156 --> 00:51:56,236
Speaker 3: I mentioned earlier, he's not.

1046
00:51:56,236 --> 00:51:58,916
Speaker 1: Chris now to him, but that I said, you're probably

1047
00:51:58,956 --> 00:52:00,556
Speaker 1: dead to him. Honestly, let's keep going.

1048
00:52:01,076 --> 00:52:01,716
Speaker 2: Let's assume that.

1049
00:52:01,716 --> 00:52:03,916
Speaker 1: But yeah, you're right, there's another that's like the sort

1050
00:52:03,916 --> 00:52:06,716
Speaker 1: of like verse Billy and then there's the chorus.

1051
00:52:06,436 --> 00:52:10,036
Speaker 3: But who goes a loud Yeah, like that was a

1052
00:52:10,036 --> 00:52:14,516
Speaker 3: perfect imitation. Billy's singing style is I think perfect for

1053
00:52:14,556 --> 00:52:17,236
Speaker 3: this band, not Chris Cornell. It is probably a good

1054
00:52:17,276 --> 00:52:20,396
Speaker 3: thing that he has, like an imperfect voice, like it's

1055
00:52:20,676 --> 00:52:24,876
Speaker 3: he is straining and he's breathy, and these are characteristics

1056
00:52:24,916 --> 00:52:27,076
Speaker 3: of his personality and it works.

1057
00:52:27,156 --> 00:52:28,116
Speaker 2: It works for the band.

1058
00:52:28,316 --> 00:52:29,756
Speaker 3: It's one of those things where if you've got the

1059
00:52:29,756 --> 00:52:31,516
Speaker 3: most technically proficient, amazing singer.

1060
00:52:31,596 --> 00:52:33,156
Speaker 2: We always use Shaka Khan as an example.

1061
00:52:33,476 --> 00:52:36,076
Speaker 3: Chaka Khan and Smashing Pumpkins would be a completely different band.

1062
00:52:36,476 --> 00:52:38,196
Speaker 2: It wouldn't have the personality of Billy.

1063
00:52:37,916 --> 00:52:41,396
Speaker 1: Corgan, Billy Corgan, Anthony Keatus like some of these people,

1064
00:52:42,316 --> 00:52:45,156
Speaker 1: well Anthony Keats in particular. I feel like anybody can

1065
00:52:45,156 --> 00:52:48,836
Speaker 1: sing pretty much, but that's sort of what makes him

1066
00:52:48,876 --> 00:52:50,236
Speaker 1: endearing to the.

1067
00:52:50,396 --> 00:52:51,196
Speaker 2: Daring is a good word.

1068
00:52:51,236 --> 00:52:54,676
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's very approachable, Like this isn't something we couldn't

1069
00:52:54,716 --> 00:52:56,116
Speaker 3: all do ourselves.

1070
00:52:56,276 --> 00:52:57,796
Speaker 1: But that's when we're billy vocals. This is fun.

1071
00:52:57,956 --> 00:52:59,556
Speaker 2: Well, here's that chorus we were talking about.

1072
00:53:12,316 --> 00:53:12,636
Speaker 1: Else.

1073
00:53:17,876 --> 00:53:20,956
Speaker 2: It's a very distinctive sing.

1074
00:53:20,356 --> 00:53:22,516
Speaker 1: I like how you went like minor there, like you know,

1075
00:53:22,916 --> 00:53:25,956
Speaker 1: the harmonizing, Yeah, you know, definitely gave you that sort

1076
00:53:25,996 --> 00:53:27,716
Speaker 1: of like that, that that fun and dark appeal.

1077
00:53:27,876 --> 00:53:30,196
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, and there's layering. You can tell that there's

1078
00:53:30,236 --> 00:53:32,356
Speaker 3: a low octave and a high octave he's doing in there.

1079
00:53:32,636 --> 00:53:35,356
Speaker 1: I love the way it all comes together.

1080
00:53:35,436 --> 00:53:37,716
Speaker 3: It all comes together. This is that's that's the magic

1081
00:53:37,756 --> 00:53:39,756
Speaker 3: of music like this. When you hear a vocal isolated

1082
00:53:39,756 --> 00:53:41,076
Speaker 3: like that, you're like, I'm not sure what this is

1083
00:53:41,116 --> 00:53:44,396
Speaker 3: attached to, but it works with those major guitars and

1084
00:53:44,516 --> 00:53:46,996
Speaker 3: jimmy and drums. This is a perfect match of all

1085
00:53:47,036 --> 00:53:49,036
Speaker 3: these sounds. Look, let me play for you. This is

1086
00:53:49,036 --> 00:53:51,356
Speaker 3: one of my favorite lines that probably hooked me into

1087
00:53:51,356 --> 00:53:54,316
Speaker 3: the song because in the moment it was happening. And then,

1088
00:53:54,356 --> 00:53:57,036
Speaker 3: as I mentioned later on in life, this like battle

1089
00:53:57,156 --> 00:54:00,756
Speaker 3: for the gatekeepers versus me, Like the gatekeepers aren't accepting me,

1090
00:54:00,796 --> 00:54:01,436
Speaker 3: what's going on?

1091
00:54:01,916 --> 00:54:13,436
Speaker 2: This is the line you come alive for the big fat.

1092
00:54:16,956 --> 00:54:18,956
Speaker 1: By the way, hipster's was not it doesn't mean what

1093
00:54:18,996 --> 00:54:21,796
Speaker 1: it means today. Like I feel like post two thousand

1094
00:54:21,796 --> 00:54:25,956
Speaker 1: and three electro clash, like hipster became ironically so big

1095
00:54:26,036 --> 00:54:28,236
Speaker 1: of a question thing like that you I wanted to

1096
00:54:28,236 --> 00:54:31,756
Speaker 1: be and you know, but I think by the nineties,

1097
00:54:31,796 --> 00:54:36,516
Speaker 1: I feel like hipster was definitely pretty much uniformly Padora.

1098
00:54:36,596 --> 00:54:38,796
Speaker 3: Well, it's funny you said that too, because the word

1099
00:54:38,876 --> 00:54:41,916
Speaker 3: hipster to me, I first heard around this time when

1100
00:54:41,956 --> 00:54:45,916
Speaker 3: I visited my friend at University of Chicago, who himself

1101
00:54:46,036 --> 00:54:48,436
Speaker 3: was telling me about how the scene in that area was,

1102
00:54:48,476 --> 00:54:51,476
Speaker 3: like there's a suppressive scene. There's a band called Urge Overkill,

1103
00:54:51,556 --> 00:54:54,236
Speaker 3: one of my favorites, and they were the absolute cool kids.

1104
00:54:54,716 --> 00:54:56,916
Speaker 3: And as you as fans of music of that era

1105
00:54:56,996 --> 00:55:00,316
Speaker 3: may remember, Liz Fair did her exile on Guyville album

1106
00:55:00,836 --> 00:55:04,476
Speaker 3: about the hipsters of Chicago, and my understanding from the

1107
00:55:04,476 --> 00:55:07,076
Speaker 3: inside was that Urge Overkill was part of this group

1108
00:55:07,276 --> 00:55:10,036
Speaker 3: that she was railing against on this album, and the

1109
00:55:10,076 --> 00:55:12,916
Speaker 3: word hipster came into my vocabulary in Chicago. So it's

1110
00:55:12,956 --> 00:55:14,836
Speaker 3: just interesting to like listen back and be like, you're

1111
00:55:14,876 --> 00:55:16,716
Speaker 3: right in nineteen ninety one, who hipster.

1112
00:55:16,436 --> 00:55:20,316
Speaker 1: Words don't mean the same as it would have meant

1113
00:55:20,516 --> 00:55:22,436
Speaker 1: in two thousand and five or even twenty twenty five.

1114
00:55:22,436 --> 00:55:28,156
Speaker 3: It's music scenesters who are opinionated and judge and keeping

1115
00:55:28,196 --> 00:55:28,516
Speaker 3: it down.

1116
00:55:29,996 --> 00:55:33,196
Speaker 1: There's an orthodox kill and everybody, everybody in the music

1117
00:55:33,276 --> 00:55:35,516
Speaker 1: scene is judgy, like these guys think these guys are

1118
00:55:35,516 --> 00:55:37,956
Speaker 1: too pommon, these guys think these guys are underground and

1119
00:55:37,996 --> 00:55:41,396
Speaker 1: can't sell five records. So everybody's kind of pointing that

1120
00:55:41,596 --> 00:55:42,556
Speaker 1: that's spider Man.

1121
00:55:42,916 --> 00:55:46,236
Speaker 3: But roc Ha is this real, real lineage of orthodoxy,

1122
00:55:46,356 --> 00:55:49,156
Speaker 3: Like like I should say, post sex pistols, punk rocks

1123
00:55:49,156 --> 00:55:51,556
Speaker 3: started to codify there are rules you can do this

1124
00:55:51,636 --> 00:55:53,836
Speaker 3: but not that, and then there's little scenes like the

1125
00:55:53,916 --> 00:55:55,796
Speaker 3: DC scene and the like.

1126
00:55:55,556 --> 00:55:57,036
Speaker 1: There's like a million subgenres.

1127
00:55:57,196 --> 00:55:59,116
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's there's a lot of rules.

1128
00:55:59,156 --> 00:56:00,876
Speaker 3: And I think Billy was like, I don't know these

1129
00:56:00,956 --> 00:56:02,716
Speaker 3: rules and I'm just making the music.

1130
00:56:02,596 --> 00:56:02,996
Speaker 2: That I like.

1131
00:56:03,036 --> 00:56:03,876
Speaker 1: Being judge too.

1132
00:56:04,356 --> 00:56:06,036
Speaker 2: He's judging about the judgers, though.

1133
00:56:07,196 --> 00:56:09,916
Speaker 1: I love your Billy defenses. But the more you talk

1134
00:56:09,956 --> 00:56:11,796
Speaker 1: about and the more I'm like, no, He's kind of

1135
00:56:12,396 --> 00:56:14,556
Speaker 1: It's like that thing where like you reil against corruption,

1136
00:56:14,716 --> 00:56:16,796
Speaker 1: and then you join the system, and then you too

1137
00:56:16,876 --> 00:56:20,116
Speaker 1: become corrupt. But that is neither here nor there.

1138
00:56:20,756 --> 00:56:22,876
Speaker 2: I hear what you're saying, and you're right. You're giving

1139
00:56:22,876 --> 00:56:26,636
Speaker 2: me something to chew on. And that's what I appreciate

1140
00:56:26,836 --> 00:56:27,756
Speaker 2: you and our friendship.

1141
00:56:28,116 --> 00:56:29,996
Speaker 1: That's why we do the show. I mean, that is

1142
00:56:30,476 --> 00:56:34,556
Speaker 1: so important to defining the Smashing Pumpkins sound. Well. Look,

1143
00:56:34,636 --> 00:56:37,596
Speaker 1: this band has been super successful. Their songs have been

1144
00:56:37,676 --> 00:56:40,636
Speaker 1: used in many movies and TV shows, including the HBO

1145
00:56:40,676 --> 00:56:44,316
Speaker 1: series Girls, which used today and the End is the

1146
00:56:44,316 --> 00:56:47,676
Speaker 1: Beginning is the End, which was in the I think

1147
00:56:48,356 --> 00:56:51,756
Speaker 1: you know essential Batman movie Batman and Robin from nineteen

1148
00:56:51,836 --> 00:56:54,436
Speaker 1: ninety three favorite Batman shut Out to Clooney. It was

1149
00:56:54,476 --> 00:56:57,516
Speaker 1: also featured in Guitar Hero three, right.

1150
00:56:57,356 --> 00:56:59,316
Speaker 3: Which is a big thing because you know, these video

1151
00:56:59,316 --> 00:57:02,236
Speaker 3: games introduce a new audience to the band to the song.

1152
00:57:02,356 --> 00:57:05,116
Speaker 1: Yeah, but you know, just speaking really quickly about visuals

1153
00:57:05,116 --> 00:57:07,036
Speaker 1: in the band, I don't think you can talk about

1154
00:57:07,276 --> 00:57:10,996
Speaker 1: Smashing Pumpkins without talking about out their music video.

1155
00:57:11,076 --> 00:57:12,956
Speaker 2: Yeah, some great Their music videos are.

1156
00:57:12,876 --> 00:57:17,276
Speaker 1: Outstanding, And I just want to call to from roughly

1157
00:57:17,356 --> 00:57:20,876
Speaker 1: this period forward. First off nineteen seventy nine, I think

1158
00:57:20,876 --> 00:57:24,276
Speaker 1: one of the most beautiful lyrical music videos.

1159
00:57:24,316 --> 00:57:24,516
Speaker 3: You know.

1160
00:57:24,556 --> 00:57:28,276
Speaker 1: He was literally like nostalgic. Yeah, it's nostalgic, and they're

1161
00:57:28,316 --> 00:57:32,276
Speaker 1: supposed to be driving around like suburban Chicago, and yet

1162
00:57:32,276 --> 00:57:34,196
Speaker 1: you can see the Hollywood Hills in the background, so

1163
00:57:34,316 --> 00:57:36,316
Speaker 1: like it's that classic thing where people try to shoot

1164
00:57:36,396 --> 00:57:38,916
Speaker 1: la for somewhere else. And of course Billy's in the

1165
00:57:38,956 --> 00:57:40,836
Speaker 1: backseat of the car and the other members of the

1166
00:57:40,876 --> 00:57:43,876
Speaker 1: band show up in various scenes. But I want to

1167
00:57:43,916 --> 00:57:47,676
Speaker 1: pay special attention to Tonight Tonight because this video had

1168
00:57:47,716 --> 00:58:03,956
Speaker 1: a huge effect on me. Ever, the directors of both

1169
00:58:04,156 --> 00:58:06,796
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy nine and Tonight Tonight are Jonathan Daton and

1170
00:58:06,836 --> 00:58:09,836
Speaker 1: Valerie Faris. They were on Misters Show with Bob and David,

1171
00:58:09,836 --> 00:58:11,836
Speaker 1: one of my favorite shows of all time. They direct,

1172
00:58:11,996 --> 00:58:15,996
Speaker 1: you know, amazing material to this day. And also the

1173
00:58:16,036 --> 00:58:20,356
Speaker 1: puppetry in Tonight Tonight is by a guy named Wayne White,

1174
00:58:20,436 --> 00:58:23,236
Speaker 1: and he is a genius. He won three Emmys for

1175
00:58:23,316 --> 00:58:25,396
Speaker 1: his work on both the set and the puppets of

1176
00:58:25,436 --> 00:58:28,596
Speaker 1: wait for it, Peewee's Playhouse, which, if you know anything

1177
00:58:28,596 --> 00:58:31,396
Speaker 1: about me, there are a few pieces of art of

1178
00:58:31,436 --> 00:58:33,836
Speaker 1: any kind that mean more to me than Pee Wee's playoffs.

1179
00:58:33,836 --> 00:58:36,116
Speaker 1: I mean, Paul Rubins, rest in peace. You are a sweet,

1180
00:58:36,476 --> 00:58:40,796
Speaker 1: sweet soul Tonight tonight. You know, when they saw the

1181
00:58:40,956 --> 00:58:45,236
Speaker 1: album art for Melancholy, Daanan and Ferris were like, why

1182
00:58:45,276 --> 00:58:47,476
Speaker 1: don't we make this video the way that they made

1183
00:58:47,556 --> 00:58:50,556
Speaker 1: early silent films. So that's why it looks the way

1184
00:58:50,596 --> 00:58:53,676
Speaker 1: it does. And it's in my top three, And I

1185
00:58:53,756 --> 00:58:55,636
Speaker 1: don't even know what else is in my top three,

1186
00:58:55,716 --> 00:58:58,236
Speaker 1: but this video is in my top three. And they

1187
00:58:58,236 --> 00:59:00,036
Speaker 1: shot at like those early silent films, And if you

1188
00:59:00,076 --> 00:59:02,476
Speaker 1: think about those early silent films being made, like these

1189
00:59:02,476 --> 00:59:06,316
Speaker 1: are the earliest moving pictures, that's like the beginning of

1190
00:59:06,316 --> 00:59:08,556
Speaker 1: the nineteen hundreds. This video comes out at the end

1191
00:59:08,676 --> 00:59:12,076
Speaker 1: essentially the nineteen hundreds. So it's a perfect bookend in

1192
00:59:12,116 --> 00:59:15,236
Speaker 1: some ways of what pop culture you know, starts off

1193
00:59:15,276 --> 00:59:16,876
Speaker 1: as at the beginning of the century and where it

1194
00:59:16,956 --> 00:59:18,876
Speaker 1: ends up at the end of the century. It's just

1195
00:59:19,076 --> 00:59:22,796
Speaker 1: an amazing video. And I'd even say just as like

1196
00:59:22,836 --> 00:59:25,556
Speaker 1: a writer and just as a human, like it's such

1197
00:59:25,596 --> 00:59:29,196
Speaker 1: an emotional song, Like you know, it starts silent, it

1198
00:59:29,236 --> 00:59:32,196
Speaker 1: flares up and then you've got lyrics like we'll crucify

1199
00:59:32,276 --> 00:59:36,476
Speaker 1: the insincere tonight, you know, the indescribable moments of our

1200
00:59:36,636 --> 00:59:40,636
Speaker 1: life Tonight, the impossible is possible tonight.

1201
00:59:40,716 --> 00:59:42,836
Speaker 3: Like it's such a perfect opener for an album, for

1202
00:59:42,836 --> 00:59:44,996
Speaker 3: a double album experience. It's like welcome to it like

1203
00:59:45,036 --> 00:59:47,556
Speaker 3: a stage, welcome to our show, welcome to our play.

1204
00:59:47,596 --> 00:59:49,956
Speaker 1: A little bit right, It's just one of those songs

1205
00:59:49,996 --> 00:59:52,756
Speaker 1: where you know if I'm in the right mood, and

1206
00:59:52,916 --> 00:59:56,796
Speaker 1: that song starts off and those soaring strings, just everything

1207
00:59:56,836 --> 00:59:58,516
Speaker 1: in that song just worked really right for me. So

1208
00:59:58,676 --> 01:00:00,996
Speaker 1: I would be remiss if we did an episode about

1209
01:00:01,036 --> 01:00:05,276
Speaker 1: Smashing Pumpkins where I didn't mention that song, those lyrics,

1210
01:00:05,356 --> 01:00:24,716
Speaker 1: which I think is just wonderful, like where you believe

1211
01:00:24,836 --> 01:00:27,436
Speaker 1: is the legacy of Chera Brock and the Smashing Pumpkins.

1212
01:00:27,596 --> 01:00:30,596
Speaker 3: Look for me, Chara Brock was and the Smashing Pumpkins

1213
01:00:30,596 --> 01:00:33,476
Speaker 3: and Siamese Dream this record in this moment, it's really

1214
01:00:33,516 --> 01:00:35,316
Speaker 3: important to me personally for all the reasons we talked

1215
01:00:35,316 --> 01:00:38,556
Speaker 3: about today. It made an impression on me that this

1216
01:00:38,596 --> 01:00:40,916
Speaker 3: person wanted to make a sound, even if it wasn't

1217
01:00:41,036 --> 01:00:43,516
Speaker 3: the cool sound of the moment. That's a great message

1218
01:00:43,596 --> 01:00:46,356
Speaker 3: and I hope that resonates to this day. Obviously the

1219
01:00:46,476 --> 01:00:48,916
Speaker 3: landscape has changed in the music industry, but I think

1220
01:00:48,996 --> 01:00:51,036
Speaker 3: this idea of like you have an idea in your head,

1221
01:00:51,036 --> 01:00:53,676
Speaker 3: but you're not sure if it's cool, that's pretty universal.

1222
01:00:53,716 --> 01:00:56,356
Speaker 3: That feels pretty timeless. So when I think about this record,

1223
01:00:56,636 --> 01:00:59,236
Speaker 3: there's the sonics of it, which these big guitars always

1224
01:00:59,276 --> 01:01:02,076
Speaker 3: been talking about the sound of Billy Corgan, the band itself,

1225
01:01:02,116 --> 01:01:04,796
Speaker 3: and their legacy. That's obviously a big part of this song,

1226
01:01:04,836 --> 01:01:07,636
Speaker 3: and it's to answer your question, it's legacy. But I

1227
01:01:07,636 --> 01:01:09,756
Speaker 3: also think this message is a really interesting one, and

1228
01:01:10,156 --> 01:01:11,916
Speaker 3: part of why I wanted to do the song was

1229
01:01:11,956 --> 01:01:14,196
Speaker 3: to remind people of the what Billy.

1230
01:01:13,996 --> 01:01:14,716
Speaker 2: Was trying to say.

1231
01:01:15,156 --> 01:01:17,716
Speaker 3: Look, I think the line beware all those angels with

1232
01:01:17,796 --> 01:01:20,396
Speaker 3: their wings glued on, he's just talking about how like

1233
01:01:20,476 --> 01:01:22,716
Speaker 3: you think that this is going to change your life

1234
01:01:22,836 --> 01:01:25,636
Speaker 3: if you cowtow to what people want you to do,

1235
01:01:25,676 --> 01:01:28,356
Speaker 3: but it really won't. Look what's inside and do what's

1236
01:01:28,396 --> 01:01:30,316
Speaker 3: true to you. So I think that message still resonates

1237
01:01:30,316 --> 01:01:30,556
Speaker 3: for me.

1238
01:01:30,636 --> 01:01:32,956
Speaker 1: I like that a lot. Okay, Luxury it Stein for

1239
01:01:33,036 --> 01:01:35,036
Speaker 1: one more song. This is the segment where we share

1240
01:01:35,076 --> 01:01:37,196
Speaker 1: a deep cut or a hidden gym with You, the

1241
01:01:37,196 --> 01:01:39,996
Speaker 1: one Song Nation, and with each Other. Today, I'm going

1242
01:01:40,076 --> 01:01:42,996
Speaker 1: to go first and my one more song is SR

1243
01:01:43,116 --> 01:01:46,556
Speaker 1: Smoothies Inside of You. This is a song I used

1244
01:01:46,596 --> 01:01:50,436
Speaker 1: to play often, and unfortunately I don't think that it's

1245
01:01:50,556 --> 01:01:53,876
Speaker 1: one of those songs that's made the transition from vinyl

1246
01:01:54,036 --> 01:01:55,916
Speaker 1: and CDs to MP three, so you might have to

1247
01:01:55,916 --> 01:01:57,996
Speaker 1: go digging for it. But it's called inside of You

1248
01:01:58,436 --> 01:02:03,996
Speaker 1: parentheses OGU twenty forty remix. I found it on YouTube,

1249
01:02:04,596 --> 01:02:06,636
Speaker 1: this SR Smoothie inside of You.

1250
01:02:15,156 --> 01:02:15,596
Speaker 3: Johnson.

1251
01:02:16,676 --> 01:02:19,476
Speaker 1: It's got a very slow build, but trust me, by

1252
01:02:19,516 --> 01:02:21,636
Speaker 1: the time you get to the end, you'll be like, oh,

1253
01:02:21,716 --> 01:02:23,676
Speaker 1: I know why he chose that song. And it also

1254
01:02:23,756 --> 01:02:25,676
Speaker 1: has a lot of cool drum changes that come in

1255
01:02:25,716 --> 01:02:26,116
Speaker 1: as well.

1256
01:02:26,436 --> 01:02:29,276
Speaker 3: Awesome for my one more song, I'm just thinking about

1257
01:02:29,316 --> 01:02:32,636
Speaker 3: Rush and I'm thinking about Billy Corgan in the like

1258
01:02:32,756 --> 01:02:35,236
Speaker 3: late seventies, early eighties. I'm just picturing the man listening

1259
01:02:35,236 --> 01:02:37,996
Speaker 3: to this song thinking about his alienation, because this song

1260
01:02:38,076 --> 01:02:40,756
Speaker 3: moved me when I was a young, alienated.

1261
01:02:40,196 --> 01:02:41,036
Speaker 2: Disaffected youth.

1262
01:02:41,916 --> 01:02:45,596
Speaker 3: It's subdivisions from Signals nineteen eighty two, classic song about

1263
01:02:45,636 --> 01:02:57,716
Speaker 3: being lonely as a kid. Be cool or be cast out?

1264
01:02:58,396 --> 01:03:01,476
Speaker 3: You know that message really resonates when you're thirteen.

1265
01:03:02,356 --> 01:03:05,316
Speaker 1: Everybody really corgan who also taps into that part of

1266
01:03:05,316 --> 01:03:10,156
Speaker 1: our brain will crucify the insincere tonight. As always, if

1267
01:03:10,156 --> 01:03:11,996
Speaker 1: you have a song you want to suggest for one

1268
01:03:11,996 --> 01:03:14,676
Speaker 1: more song, you can find us on TikTok or Instagram.

1269
01:03:14,756 --> 01:03:17,476
Speaker 1: You can find me on TikTok at d'allo riddle or

1270
01:03:17,516 --> 01:03:22,396
Speaker 1: on Instagram at Diallo. That's right on Instagram at Dallo.

1271
01:03:22,356 --> 01:03:23,516
Speaker 2: And I am Luxury.

1272
01:03:23,556 --> 01:03:27,756
Speaker 3: On TikTok that's luxx ry xx and Instagram you can

1273
01:03:27,756 --> 01:03:29,956
Speaker 3: find me just the luxx ry part.

1274
01:03:29,996 --> 01:03:31,436
Speaker 2: You don't need to add the xx at the end.

1275
01:03:31,756 --> 01:03:34,076
Speaker 1: You can also find us on YouTube these days and

1276
01:03:34,676 --> 01:03:37,276
Speaker 1: search one song podcast on YouTube and you can see

1277
01:03:37,276 --> 01:03:40,156
Speaker 1: our lovely faces as well as like some visual clips

1278
01:03:40,156 --> 01:03:41,116
Speaker 1: to go along with.

1279
01:03:41,116 --> 01:03:42,436
Speaker 2: These complete episodes.

1280
01:03:42,516 --> 01:03:44,516
Speaker 3: Yeah, if you like the podcast, go rewatch it with

1281
01:03:44,796 --> 01:03:47,436
Speaker 3: looking at Us this time. Yeah, the entire episodes, And

1282
01:03:47,476 --> 01:03:49,196
Speaker 3: if you've made it this far, I think that means

1283
01:03:49,236 --> 01:03:52,076
Speaker 3: you like the podcast, So please do not forget to

1284
01:03:52,076 --> 01:03:54,596
Speaker 3: give us five stars, leave a review and share with

1285
01:03:54,716 --> 01:03:56,796
Speaker 3: someone you think might like the show, because it really

1286
01:03:56,836 --> 01:03:57,836
Speaker 3: helps keep it going.

1287
01:03:58,076 --> 01:03:59,396
Speaker 1: All right, Luxury help us in.

1288
01:03:59,476 --> 01:04:02,876
Speaker 3: This thing, well, I'm producer, DJ and songwriter and music

1289
01:04:02,916 --> 01:04:04,436
Speaker 3: cologist Luxury.

1290
01:04:04,316 --> 01:04:07,276
Speaker 1: And I'm active writer to writers sometimes DJ d'allow.

1291
01:04:07,676 --> 01:04:10,036
Speaker 2: And this is one song I'll see you next time.

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Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Jonasanti, with engineering from Marcus Ham.

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Speaker 1: Additional production support from Casey Simonson and Abou Kamara. The

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Speaker 1: show is executive produced by Kevin Hart, Mike Steine, Bryan Smiley,

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Speaker 1: Eric Eddings, Eric Wild, and Leslie want