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Speaker 1: What's up?

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Speaker 2: Boscard?

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Speaker 3: Yay, Oh my god, you're loud and here it's so exciting.

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Speaker 3: You're running in place.

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Speaker 2: Where are you going?

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Speaker 3: What's that?

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Speaker 2: You're running in place?

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Speaker 1: A little bit. That's just so loud and exciting.

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Speaker 2: And hot.

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Speaker 1: Jesus, it's hot here.

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Speaker 2: This is insane.

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Speaker 3: Our second city of our twenty twenty five tour.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it would have been our first, but we were

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Speaker 1: waiting for it to kind of get a little cooler

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Speaker 1: here and we couldn't wait anymore, so we decided to come.

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Speaker 2: We came, and we match somehow.

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Speaker 1: This was a mistake, This was unplanned. This is what

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Speaker 1: starts happening to your brain after ten years of podcasting together.

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Speaker 2: That's right, your purple sink.

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Speaker 1: Aesthetic sinking is what they call it in science.

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Speaker 2: We'll tell them about your offits.

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Speaker 3: So we're talking about it.

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Speaker 1: Oh, I got this outfit. It's by a designer named

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Speaker 1: Kevin Holland has pockets.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, gorgeous, so pretty, Thanks you.

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Speaker 1: And how about you're out thank you.

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Speaker 3: I have a velvet insane drunk ant at the Christmas

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Speaker 3: party outfit.

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Speaker 2: That has thank you.

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Speaker 1: Yes, it has.

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Speaker 3: Questionable vintage stains on it. And yeah, because we're in Texas.

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Speaker 1: That's right. Obviously we're playing the part here. I love

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Speaker 1: that aunt that she just fed some cows and came in.

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Speaker 1: She's like, God, damn this Christmas party.

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Speaker 2: Where's my eggnog and my cigarette?

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Speaker 3: I need to stain this dress.

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Speaker 1: This is the true crime comedy podcast, My favorite murder.

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Speaker 1: If you didn't thank you?

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Speaker 4: That's Karen Kilgarrett.

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Speaker 1: That's Georgia Hartstark.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I met a Texas raccoon last night. I met

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Speaker 3: a raccoon and I were just going for a walk

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Speaker 3: after dinner downtown.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if it's downtown, but it felt like it.

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Speaker 5: There were buildings still, lots of building Yeah, and just

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Speaker 5: like out of nowhere, a bucket raccoon jumps out of

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Speaker 5: a trash can holding food and climbs into a gutter

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Speaker 5: boom when I fucking lost my mind.

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Speaker 3: A city like a city raccoon is the most exciting

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Speaker 3: thing to me.

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Speaker 2: And I was like, wait, wait, wait.

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Speaker 3: Come back, come back. I have a questioned I want

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Speaker 3: to interview you.

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Speaker 1: Do you have an accent?

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Speaker 3: It was so cute, So I'm clearly starved for animal

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Speaker 3: love at the very moment.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I guess the raccoons in Austin are

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Speaker 1: very well fed, because every bite of food I've had

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Speaker 1: since I've gotten here is the best thing I've ever eaten.

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Speaker 1: It's ridiculous.

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Speaker 2: Have you had caeso yet?

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Speaker 4: Uh?

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Speaker 1: No, sadly That'll be my goal before I leave here.

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Speaker 3: Bucket a caso race to caeso.

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Speaker 1: The next forty eight hours. I got a hamburger at

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Speaker 1: a place called Eureka and they said these are the

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Speaker 1: best burgers ever. And we were like, we're from Los Angeles.

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Speaker 1: And then we ate and it was the best burger ever.

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Speaker 2: Nice.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, nice, had some and these I think homemade flower tortillas.

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Speaker 1: Like the tortillas were like someone cared about me as I.

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Speaker 2: Ate it, which is how you.

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Speaker 1: Should make food. I think.

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Speaker 3: Yes.

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Speaker 1: Anyway, I want to sit down.

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Speaker 3: Okay, guys, we're very new to this.

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Speaker 1: It's been six years and years. It's a little crazy.

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Speaker 1: We didn't think anyone was gonna come this time.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and you guys haven't heard the first night of Denber.

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Speaker 3: We didn't remember our lines. We don't know what we're doing.

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Speaker 3: We don't know where we are most of the times.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So if there's like podcast authorities here tonight, we're

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Speaker 1: going to get a bad report card for sure.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, But do you want to tell them about the podcast?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this is the speech I have to remember. Literally

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Speaker 1: I had to print it out because I was like,

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Speaker 1: this is the kind of thing that you just when

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Speaker 1: you do it all the time, it's no big deal.

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Speaker 1: And then that first night in Denver, I was like, literally, like, line,

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Speaker 1: I don't know what, but we like to explain ourselves

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Speaker 1: because sometimes it shows. There are people we call them

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Speaker 1: drag alongs.

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Speaker 3: Lovingly.

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Speaker 1: They are people who don't want to listen to this

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Speaker 1: podcast but are forced to constantly, and we say hi

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Speaker 1: to you. We thank you for your patience and your

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Speaker 1: love of your partner that you would listen to these

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Speaker 1: two assholes blab around all through your road trip or

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Speaker 1: whatever it is you're doing. Some drag alongs come and

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Speaker 1: they don't listen to the podcast and they don't like it,

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Speaker 1: and they think to themselves, true crime and comedy those

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Speaker 1: two things don't go together. So we just want you

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Speaker 1: to know. You know, we're two people who grew up.

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Speaker 1: Our childhoods were the type where there was a lot

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Speaker 1: of coping with comedy types of things. So when we

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Speaker 1: approach difficult the difficult parts of life. We often do

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Speaker 1: that with humor. We don't think murder is funny. We

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Speaker 1: just think we're funny. So that said, if you don't

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Speaker 1: like it, you can get the fuck out.

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Speaker 4: You got it.

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Speaker 1: I not only did I remember it, I added to.

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Speaker 3: You know, Yeah, that's how comfortable you are.

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Speaker 1: Yes, we're right back on, like riding a bike, yeah,

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Speaker 1: an audio bike.

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Speaker 3: An audio bike. Well, yeah, so we're going to tell

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Speaker 3: you some stories tonight. Should I should we do this?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: You go first, right first? I think, yes, okay, all right,

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Speaker 2: let's do.

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Speaker 3: So we have done almost five hundred episodes and I

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Speaker 3: feel like a quarter of them and take have taken

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Speaker 3: place in Texas.

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Speaker 1: I know you have many many many many do.

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Speaker 3: Not fuck around, so it has been hard to find

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Speaker 3: new stories and cities we go to except for Texas.

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Speaker 1: So right, job, And we'd like to say we'd like

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Speaker 1: to thank the Textless Monthly Publication. Yes, incredible, incredible publication.

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Speaker 1: Skip Hollandsworth particularly, we would like to have Mark has

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Speaker 1: an incredible writer who he lets us regurgitate his stuff

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Speaker 1: and then go eyd years. Skip Hollandsworth really researched this story.

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Speaker 3: It's great. Well It's funny that you say that, because

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Speaker 3: this story that I'm always hell tonight. It was kind

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Speaker 3: of forgotten. It was a very high profile case here

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Speaker 3: in Texas. It was kind of forgotten except for in

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Speaker 3: the small town it took place in. But then a

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Speaker 3: journalist named Pamela Cooloff wrote a Textas Monthly story about, Hey,

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Speaker 3: you gonna.

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Speaker 1: Believe that that's the yea psychic purple link.

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Speaker 3: Yes, and not revived the case, but it's still not

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Speaker 3: as well known.

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Speaker 2: Maybe you guys know it. This is the kiss and

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Speaker 2: kill murder from Odessa? Anyone from Odessa?

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Speaker 3: Yes, So she wrote an article called a Kiss before Dying.

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Speaker 3: I remember the story from you know, Late Nights scrolling

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Speaker 3: and it's just wild and unexpected.

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Speaker 2: So here we go.

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Speaker 3: Do you know it? I do not, Okay, So the

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Speaker 3: main source is the Texas Monthly article that I just said,

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Speaker 3: and a memoir by the cousin of the victim, Shelton Williams,

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Speaker 3: called washed in Blood. Nope, called washed in the blood.

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Speaker 3: And so those are very different. Those are two very different.

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Speaker 1: As a person raised as a Catholic, those are two different,

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Speaker 1: two different ideas.

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Speaker 2: Is that a thing?

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Speaker 3: What's that? Blood washing?

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Speaker 1: And we love blood over in the Christian area. We

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Speaker 1: talk about it a lot. It's very holy.

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Speaker 3: Sometimes, okay, And the rest of the sources can be

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Speaker 3: found in our show notes, but not right now, because

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Speaker 3: this is live in the future, in.

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Speaker 2: The future of show notes.

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Speaker 3: All right, So in nineteen sixty one, Betty Williams is

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Speaker 3: a seventeen year old high school senior at Odessa High School.

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Speaker 2: It's about three hundred miles away from here.

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Speaker 3: It's the real place of the fictional place where Saturday

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Speaker 3: Night Lights took place.

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Speaker 1: Oh, Friday Night Lights.

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Speaker 2: That's what I meant.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, just a combination, this combination of the sketch sketch

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Speaker 1: football show, Saturday Night Lights.

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Speaker 3: You can tell how well we grew up with sports.

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Speaker 2: I did it.

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Speaker 3: We don't Jewish people don't do sports, so we did it.

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Speaker 1: I'm at the fifty yard line. It's a really really

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Speaker 1: good show though.

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Speaker 3: Yes, it's incredible.

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Speaker 2: Do you know I once saw her what's her name?

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Speaker 3: She's so cute.

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Speaker 2: No, not Connie Britten, you can call Mica.

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Speaker 3: Kelly. Vince and I were in Germany on vacation and

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Speaker 3: we were at waiting at an elevator at her hotel,

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Speaker 3: and up comes Minca Kelly looking so gorgeous. I couldn't

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Speaker 3: believe it. And I was like, oh, she was with

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Speaker 3: a boyfriend and I was like, look at that that

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Speaker 3: like like you know, meathead she's with. I was like

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Speaker 3: he must be her trainer, Like good for her forgetting

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Speaker 3: to like hot piece or whatever. And we look it

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Speaker 3: up later and he's the singer of Imagine Dragons. No no, yeah,

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Speaker 3: I was like, good for her forgetting this honk whatever,

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Speaker 3: Like I hope he' like worships out her feet.

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Speaker 2: He's like the singer of the biggest fan that's ever.

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Speaker 2: So what do I know?

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Speaker 3: Not sports, not music, podcasting, not podcasting.

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Speaker 1: We just know this exact thing we're doing right now.

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Speaker 1: Luckily it's working out.

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Speaker 3: Right, thank god. Okay, So it's about three hundred miles

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Speaker 3: west of here, and it's a pretty big town at

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Speaker 3: this point, at booming population. There's local oil fields, so

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Speaker 3: that fulls the population, and there's money in the area

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Speaker 3: because of that oil. But the stereotype is that most

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Speaker 3: of the people with money live in nearby Midland.

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Speaker 2: They don't stick.

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Speaker 1: Yes here, are you really from Midland?

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Speaker 3: Congratulations?

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Speaker 1: Do you think for the rest of this show you

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Speaker 1: would be our audience ambassador, and whenever we pronounce something

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Speaker 1: wrong or do it wrong, everyone's going to yell all

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Speaker 1: at the same time, but we don't know what anyone's

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Speaker 1: saying Manca Kelly. Yeah, So you can be the one

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Speaker 1: that we're going to look at you and be like, hey, Midland,

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Speaker 1: what's going on? And you can be like they're saying,

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Speaker 1: Manca Kelly.

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Speaker 2: She's agreeing to it.

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Speaker 1: Okay, great, great.

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Speaker 3: So the quote is that Midlands is where you raise

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Speaker 3: your kids, Odessa is where you raise hell hey and

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Speaker 3: actually well murdering. A named Rachel I checked our emails

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Speaker 3: and she wrote it and said Odessa is consistently voted

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Speaker 3: as one of the most violent cities in Texas in

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Speaker 3: the US as a whole because of the rampant street races.

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Speaker 3: I don't know why I pointed at you. Oh, I

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Speaker 3: wasn't supposed to tell anyone about you and your street racing.

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Speaker 1: I've been arrested for street racing and drag. What's the

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Speaker 1: things fading and dragging Midland?

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Speaker 3: What is it? Furious pace and furious doughnuts donuts?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, street racing. Sorry, what's your actual name?

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Speaker 3: Christy Drifting?

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Speaker 2: Her name is not Drifting drifting.

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Speaker 1: Christy drifter. That's insane. What a coincidence it is drifting.

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Speaker 1: That was what I was thinking.

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Speaker 2: That's true.

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Speaker 3: She passed, she good, she is good test Midlands okay,

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Speaker 3: rampant street races, drunk driving. And then she wrote and

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Speaker 3: you know drugs. Oh, in the sixties it was similar.

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Speaker 3: So that's where we are. Thank you to Rachel the

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Speaker 3: Murderino for giving.

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Speaker 2: Us a is that you no?

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Speaker 4: Okay?

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Speaker 3: I think this was in my twenty eighteen she wrote this,

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Speaker 3: so she might not be a listener anymore.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we're still kind of churning through that Gmail. There's

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Speaker 1: a lot of stuff in there, so right, please be patient.

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Speaker 3: That said, all things relative, and for Betty Odessa is

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Speaker 3: is very square. She's kind of sounds like me growing

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Speaker 3: up in the suburbs, where it's like, oh no, I'm

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Speaker 3: stuck in this place that I don't fit in. I

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Speaker 3: want to get out, but it's the sixties, so you

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Speaker 3: kind of can't leave, right, They couldn't leave in the sixties.

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Speaker 1: Go right, everyone has locked in.

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Speaker 3: Betty probably would have done really well in like a

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Speaker 3: you know, in Austin or a bigger hipper town, but

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Speaker 3: unfortunately she's struggling in Odessa. She's a big fan of

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Speaker 3: the the writing of Jack Kerouac and Alan Ginsberg's she

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Speaker 3: loves Lenny Bruce's stand up and she frequently rails against

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Speaker 3: segregation and calls out the racism she sees all around her,

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Speaker 3: even though she's raised by a Baptist preacher. So she's

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Speaker 3: just like rebellious in a small town.

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Speaker 1: So a good person.

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Speaker 2: Yes, she likes to go against the grain.

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Speaker 3: When she's bored, she goes to the local diner wearing

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Speaker 3: all black and white lipstick and not putting on a bra,

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Speaker 3: which I think even today is like.

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Speaker 1: Right doing it.

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Speaker 3: So Pamela Calliff describes Betty's appearance by saying she had

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Speaker 3: quote sandy blonde hair that brushed her shoulders and big

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Speaker 3: expressive blue eyes that could feign sincerity when talking to

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Speaker 3: authority figures. But we're alive with irreverence. So she was,

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Speaker 3: you know sharp. Odessa is ruled though, by football Chocking

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Speaker 3: Lee football team about thirty years later, as I said

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Speaker 3: in the book Friday Night Light Capital f Yes, and

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Speaker 3: you know, it is that culture there even then. And

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Speaker 3: so in the sixty the popular girls are known around

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Speaker 3: are known around town as the Kashmir Girls.

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Speaker 2: That's their nickname.

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Speaker 3: I don't know why, because that sounds really fucking hot

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Speaker 3: in Texas to be we're in Cashmere, maybe like a

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Speaker 3: Light Silk the Light Silk Gang.

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Speaker 1: The Kashmere Girls aka this Weddy Bitches.

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Speaker 2: That's right.

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Speaker 3: And they even belong to little mini sororities within their

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Speaker 3: high school. And they're rich and of course, you know,

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Speaker 3: obedient when their parents are paying attention. They're conformists unlike Betty,

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Speaker 3: and her family does struggle financially, and her father is

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Speaker 3: deeply religious and he's constantly reminding Betty of all the

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Speaker 3: ways that she, in his eyes, fails to measure up

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Speaker 3: to his very rigid.

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Speaker 2: Set of standards.

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Speaker 3: So Betty does have friends and she writes notes to

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Speaker 3: them in classes, but she's just kind of over it

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Speaker 3: in her city.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it sounds like she's very alone or you know,

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Speaker 1: kind of alienated.

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Speaker 3: Right, and so she's cool, but she's still a teenager,

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Speaker 3: and people know her say that well, she pretends to

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Speaker 3: be above it all, she also deeply wants to be accepted,

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Speaker 3: and she sees the world in that classic teenage way

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Speaker 3: where they think that things have to happen immediately.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 3: All this is to say it's difficult for her. It

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00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:06,200
Speaker 3: sounds like nowadays she maybe would have gotten some mental help,

301
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Speaker 3: as we all need, but back then and with religious parents,

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Speaker 3: it's not going to happen. So she does start having

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Speaker 3: sex around with the boys at school because she's bored.

304
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Speaker 1: Did you just woohoo? Like you can't?

305
00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:26,240
Speaker 3: You're right, it's fun, it's so fun. She's not wrong,

306
00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:31,160
Speaker 3: she's not incorrect, and so because of that, of course,

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00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:34,520
Speaker 3: she gets talked about a lot by the popular girls.

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Speaker 3: She dreams of getting out of Odessa and becoming an actress,

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Speaker 3: but she also can't imagine that and picture a realistic

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Speaker 3: path forward. She's the oldest of her for her family's poor,

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Speaker 3: so she doesn't know where to get the money to

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Speaker 3: leave or go to college. And so during the summer

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Speaker 3: between Betty's junior and senior year, she winds up in

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Speaker 3: a relationship with a boy named mac Herring.

315
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Speaker 2: And it's more not really a real relationship.

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Speaker 3: It's more real than she's had in the past, but

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Speaker 3: it sounds like he just kind of isn't willing to

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Speaker 3: like make it public that he's dating her. They won't

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Speaker 3: go to he won't take her to parties and he

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Speaker 3: won't acknowledge that you know that she's his girlfriend. Give

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00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:18,200
Speaker 3: him his letter jacket is a thing. I guess it

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Speaker 3: happens with sports.

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Speaker 1: It does, Yeah, it does. So you're basically saying he's

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Speaker 1: an asshole.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, it's not ideal.

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Speaker 3: Okay. And so Betty at the end of the summer,

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Speaker 3: maybe because she's feeling hurt, she hooks up with someone

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Speaker 3: else and Mac finds out and ends the relationship. And

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Speaker 3: so this is a huge blow for Betty. It only

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Speaker 3: gets worse when school starts. It's her senior year, and

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Speaker 3: for one reason or another, she doesn't get cast in

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Speaker 3: the school play. And like I said, she wanted to

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Speaker 3: be an actress. It's like a part of her personality.

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Speaker 3: It's a really big deal to her.

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Speaker 1: Also, it's where the kids who dump along other places go.

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Speaker 1: A theater department is like, that's where it's at if

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00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:59,359
Speaker 1: you're not a jock and you're not a cheerleader. Right, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I can't. I have rehearsal. That's how we cope.

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Speaker 3: I wish I had known that I'm also not a

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Speaker 3: good actress, but I still have been there.

341
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Speaker 2: Right, they would have accepted me.

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Speaker 1: You would have done great in there.

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Speaker 2: I could have built sets. You know, you love a.

344
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Speaker 3: Black turtle neck.

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Speaker 1: You would have been great.

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Speaker 3: So it sounds like this kind of like just kind

347
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Speaker 3: of brings her down in a way that it sounds

348
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Speaker 3: like as someone with depression. She gets really depressed. Things

349
00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:31,080
Speaker 3: get worse at home and her friends. I'll say that

350
00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:36,320
Speaker 3: things have gotten pretty bad. Her father very religious devote Baptists.

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Speaker 2: But he takes it to the next level.

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Speaker 3: He goes into her room and reads her diary and

353
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Speaker 3: finds out about all the trace she's had, and it

354
00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:48,040
Speaker 3: sounds like her father is at least verbally abusive, and

355
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Speaker 3: her mother is passive about it, as that's the most

356
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Speaker 3: we kind of know about it.

357
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Speaker 2: But by the winter, Betty.

358
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Speaker 3: Is telling classmates that she wants to die today. Of course,

359
00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:01,320
Speaker 3: as I said, this would be taken seriously, you would

360
00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:04,240
Speaker 3: hope and she'd get some mental health help. But at

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00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:06,760
Speaker 3: nineteen sixty one, everyone in the community just kind of

362
00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:10,000
Speaker 3: chalks it up to Betty being dramagmatic. Of course, right,

363
00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:13,199
Speaker 3: She spends the next several months telling multiple classmates that

364
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Speaker 3: she wants to end her life and asks them.

365
00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:17,960
Speaker 2: To help her to do so, which is such a

366
00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:20,480
Speaker 2: cry for help. It's like yeah, not even.

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00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:24,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like people need you need to be you

368
00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:28,520
Speaker 1: need the skills and the communication. So you're a teenager

369
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Speaker 1: and there's another teenager telling you a really scary thing

370
00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:33,760
Speaker 1: that like what do you do? You laugh it off,

371
00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:35,560
Speaker 1: you freak out, you don't know what to.

372
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Speaker 3: Do, right, And so it sounds like no one actually

373
00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:41,520
Speaker 3: believes that she's going to go through with her plan.

374
00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:44,600
Speaker 3: And then on March twentieth, nineteen sixty one, Betty's at

375
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Speaker 3: school and she runs into that summer X and she

376
00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:51,520
Speaker 3: says to him, quote, it's been nice knowing you. And

377
00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:53,480
Speaker 3: when he asked her what she's talking about, she says,

378
00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:55,320
Speaker 3: she's going to talk Mac into killing her.

379
00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:56,600
Speaker 2: What she says.

380
00:19:57,920 --> 00:19:59,919
Speaker 3: Two days later, Betty gets a ride home from Immers

381
00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:02,359
Speaker 3: from rehearsals for the school play, but she's not in,

382
00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:04,359
Speaker 3: but it sounds like maybe she was a stage manager

383
00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:08,000
Speaker 3: or doing sets or something from a classmate named Ike,

384
00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:10,480
Speaker 3: and she suggests he comes back half an hour later

385
00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:12,600
Speaker 3: and she'll sneak back out to meet him, and she

386
00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:15,320
Speaker 3: tells him, she tells this guy Ike that Mac has

387
00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:20,040
Speaker 3: agreed to kill her. And Ike is like, there's no

388
00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:22,159
Speaker 3: way she's serious. Doesn't take it seriously. I think we

389
00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:26,800
Speaker 3: have a photo of Mac and Betty actually, oh, I know,

390
00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:27,720
Speaker 3: and she loves it.

391
00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:33,320
Speaker 1: She's gorgeous. Also, like it's always that thing where it's

392
00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:35,440
Speaker 1: like when people tell you and it feels like everyone

393
00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:38,160
Speaker 1: that ever went to high school, it's just like, oh,

394
00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:40,600
Speaker 1: it's miserable. It sucked in this way. Here's why I

395
00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:43,439
Speaker 1: think I wasn't good. People didn't like me. And then

396
00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:45,919
Speaker 1: it's like it's like, why wouldn't anyone not like you?

397
00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:46,199
Speaker 4: Right?

398
00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:48,440
Speaker 1: Like that that kind of thing where we're just like, yes,

399
00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:49,879
Speaker 1: that's a teenage.

400
00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:51,040
Speaker 3: Dream couple right there, right.

401
00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:52,240
Speaker 2: Yeah.

402
00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:55,000
Speaker 1: Meanwhile, I had the most fucked up bangs and I

403
00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:58,680
Speaker 1: plucked this eyebrow back to here. I had a lot

404
00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:02,720
Speaker 1: going against me, but I did have the theater.

405
00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:08,160
Speaker 2: She had the theater I did, so she uh.

406
00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:10,639
Speaker 3: At ten point thirty that night, she sneaks out of

407
00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:14,439
Speaker 3: her house, meets Ike, and then Mac drives up to

408
00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:17,800
Speaker 3: where they are, and Ike is so sure that Betty

409
00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:20,920
Speaker 3: had been joking about Mac killing her that he doesn't

410
00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:22,840
Speaker 3: even stop her from getting out of the car and

411
00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:26,480
Speaker 3: going with him. He says that Betty turns over her

412
00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:29,440
Speaker 3: turns over her shoulder, as she's leaving and says, quote,

413
00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:32,000
Speaker 3: I've got to call his bluff even if he kills me.

414
00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:37,439
Speaker 3: So from Ike's perspective, it sounds like the scenario Betty

415
00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:41,240
Speaker 3: is imagining is from one of one which Mac doesn't

416
00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:44,359
Speaker 3: actually go through with it. Who knows what everyone what

417
00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:48,760
Speaker 3: was going through everyone's mind. But unfortunately, for the rest

418
00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:51,560
Speaker 3: of the story, the only perspective we have, and the

419
00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:55,240
Speaker 3: only version we have is Max and Betty's parents report. So,

420
00:21:55,280 --> 00:22:01,040
Speaker 3: Betty's parents report her missing the next morning. Excuse me, Wow,

421
00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:06,000
Speaker 3: it's really terrible on stage to do that look embarrassing.

422
00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:07,800
Speaker 1: You'll work it out by the end of this tour.

423
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:09,159
Speaker 1: You'll never do it again.

424
00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:12,159
Speaker 3: I wasn't in theater class. I don't know how to

425
00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:13,040
Speaker 3: silently burp.

426
00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:18,879
Speaker 1: Dude, just push it down and silently fart. It's not true,

427
00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:25,000
Speaker 1: it's not true.

428
00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:26,040
Speaker 2: Can you tell?

429
00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:28,760
Speaker 1: Why is this so hard? It's so weird. We do

430
00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:31,399
Speaker 1: it all the time, and we like doing it hard.

431
00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:34,800
Speaker 3: It's really intense, especially when you're going through perimenopause.

432
00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:39,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a different that's a difference. Six years later,

433
00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:42,800
Speaker 1: this time, menopause is upon us, ladies and gentlemen.

434
00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:45,640
Speaker 3: Six years late ago, I was in my thirties. Still,

435
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:48,200
Speaker 3: who is she? That feels so good?

436
00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:48,480
Speaker 6: Oh?

437
00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:48,959
Speaker 3: Was she?

438
00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:51,080
Speaker 1: Do you want me to do that while you.

439
00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:51,480
Speaker 3: Talk to me?

440
00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:56,280
Speaker 2: I want some Oh my, I'm wearing like velvet gown?

441
00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:57,800
Speaker 2: What the fuck?

442
00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:00,760
Speaker 1: Polyester? Like the hottest thing you could be wearing.

443
00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:01,600
Speaker 2: Spank.

444
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:07,359
Speaker 3: Yes, it's happening. Yeah, thank you. You will appreciate you. Okay,

445
00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:08,560
Speaker 3: and we're back.

446
00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:11,480
Speaker 1: So Betty, all of that would have been edited out

447
00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:13,639
Speaker 1: of the regular podcast. So just like now, we just

448
00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:14,280
Speaker 1: have to do it.

449
00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:16,440
Speaker 2: In front it does it not? Oh she's a fan.

450
00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:18,920
Speaker 1: Oh do you want that fan? Yeah, we'll take the fan.

451
00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:21,000
Speaker 1: Thanks so nice.

452
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:23,040
Speaker 2: You're an angel.

453
00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:25,959
Speaker 1: It's a fan from Mulan Rouge.

454
00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:27,080
Speaker 3: Thank you so much.

455
00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:28,760
Speaker 2: But now you're gonna be sweating.

456
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:30,919
Speaker 3: You don't have a fan, No, you're okay, she's a

457
00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:33,320
Speaker 3: sweater on, so I think she's okay. Thank you.

458
00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:37,160
Speaker 2: Oh my god. That was just that's great, awesome.

459
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:38,359
Speaker 1: What a look too?

460
00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:39,480
Speaker 3: Do I mean?

461
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:48,520
Speaker 1: This look is coming together? Snap it out, slay slay,

462
00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:54,240
Speaker 1: slay bitch, okay and death drop right in the front

463
00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:54,399
Speaker 1: of this.

464
00:23:55,000 --> 00:24:00,600
Speaker 3: Come on, Okay. The drag a lungs are angry.

465
00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:02,840
Speaker 1: They're like, what is this fucking thing?

466
00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:03,440
Speaker 3: Happening.

467
00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:04,560
Speaker 1: Don't get it.

468
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,280
Speaker 3: People over forty should not be on stage.

469
00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:10,000
Speaker 2: Why is this happening.

470
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:14,240
Speaker 1: We're here to fight for the sweaty bitches that right,

471
00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:20,160
Speaker 1: you know, Texas Austin gets it.

472
00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:23,280
Speaker 2: So okay, back into the shit.

473
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:26,600
Speaker 3: They report her missing, and the police quickly pull out

474
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:30,800
Speaker 3: her classmates for questioning, including tell the some that tell

475
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:32,760
Speaker 3: them that the last time they saw her, she was

476
00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:36,120
Speaker 3: getting into Ma's car and that you know, things were

477
00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:36,800
Speaker 3: not going well with her.

478
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:37,920
Speaker 2: And police questioned Mac.

479
00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:40,800
Speaker 3: He claims that he picked Betty up like Ike said,

480
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:42,320
Speaker 3: but that he dropped her back off at her house

481
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:44,359
Speaker 3: at midnight without waiting to see if she got in,

482
00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:46,360
Speaker 3: which we know you guys don't fucking do in Texas,

483
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:51,480
Speaker 3: right Like, It's very rude. This obviously is suspicious to

484
00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:54,280
Speaker 3: investigators for that very reason. And she was wearing she

485
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:56,760
Speaker 3: had snuck out of her house, so she was wearing

486
00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:02,240
Speaker 3: like pajamas and like a duster robe and so, and

487
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:04,399
Speaker 3: they're skeptical that he would leave a girl standing on

488
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:08,080
Speaker 3: her porch and her pajamas. And they're also skeptical that

489
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:10,520
Speaker 3: she would have gone back through the front door, because

490
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:10,880
Speaker 3: when you.

491
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:12,600
Speaker 2: Sneak out, you have to sneak back in.

492
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:14,640
Speaker 1: Usually hopefully through a window.

493
00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:16,919
Speaker 3: Hopefully as a window that's not too high. Yeah, I

494
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:18,760
Speaker 3: the thought that the window I used to have to

495
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:21,280
Speaker 3: sneak in and out of I think too like back

496
00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:24,040
Speaker 3: to now, I could have brokera a fucking neck.

497
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:25,080
Speaker 4: It's insane.

498
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:26,639
Speaker 1: How was it? Second story?

499
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:27,399
Speaker 2: Second story?

500
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 3: And then you had a leap to a landing that

501
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:33,640
Speaker 3: was like over the shed, so it probably wasn't very

502
00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:36,080
Speaker 3: sturdy to begin with. I could have fallen right through it,

503
00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:39,160
Speaker 3: and then you had to leap back into the door,

504
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:39,840
Speaker 3: into the window.

505
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:44,120
Speaker 1: All that on drugs. Yeah, we all do a lot

506
00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:47,400
Speaker 1: of things, and we all have and it's fine, it's

507
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:47,840
Speaker 1: really fun.

508
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:49,000
Speaker 2: And then you'd get a podcast.

509
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:52,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. If you do enough for those things,

510
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:53,320
Speaker 1: you get a podcast.

511
00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,760
Speaker 3: So so she had to sneak back in, so probably

512
00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:01,320
Speaker 3: didn't go to the front door. And after a forty

513
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,960
Speaker 3: five minute interrogation, the whole story comes out. He says

514
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:08,240
Speaker 3: that Betty had been begging him like others at school,

515
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 3: to kill her, and he said he finally agreed to it,

516
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:14,600
Speaker 3: and that she this is his story, selected a twelve

517
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:18,080
Speaker 3: gage shotgun and that he did it. He admits it

518
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 3: in nineteen sixty one, Like.

519
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:20,359
Speaker 2: What the fuck?

520
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 1: What I mean?

521
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:24,640
Speaker 3: He brings police to the land that his father uses

522
00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:27,960
Speaker 3: for hunting, about twenty five miles out and there he

523
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 3: leads them to a pond and they please see that

524
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,359
Speaker 3: there's blood on the ground, and they ask him to

525
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 3: retrieve her body. He takes off his leather jacket and

526
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:40,000
Speaker 3: all his clothes, goes into the water and pulls her

527
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:40,680
Speaker 3: body shore.

528
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:44,240
Speaker 1: I know, because the idea. We have to entertain this

529
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:47,040
Speaker 1: idea too. The mac has been pulled into.

530
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:50,640
Speaker 2: This idea, so I want to Yeah.

531
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:53,480
Speaker 1: But there is a horrible consideration that this is a

532
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:55,639
Speaker 1: person who is trying to just give a person what

533
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:58,920
Speaker 1: they want because they are begging for it. Like that's yes,

534
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 1: it's a crazy consideration.

535
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 3: What a horrible situation, right right, And like you'd hope

536
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:07,800
Speaker 3: the first thing they do is like go get helped.

537
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:09,640
Speaker 1: Do something, tell one other person.

538
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:14,879
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, he said that it's just awful.

539
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:19,880
Speaker 2: She she chose the spot, she was like into it.

540
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 2: She gave him a kiss and then he shot her.

541
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:26,960
Speaker 3: One of Betty's close friends said that it was always

542
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:30,199
Speaker 3: abundantly clear that Betty truly didn't want to die, and

543
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:32,840
Speaker 3: that Betty was bluffing, trying to get Mac to tell

544
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:35,679
Speaker 3: her that she loved she was loved and wanted by him.

545
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:39,040
Speaker 3: This friend says, quote, I always believed Max's script was

546
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:40,240
Speaker 3: I'll teach her a lesson.

547
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:42,679
Speaker 2: She'll be so scared at how close we came to

548
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:43,040
Speaker 2: doing this.

549
00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:47,400
Speaker 3: She will grow up and stop the dramatic, the dramatics,

550
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:51,080
Speaker 3: and that Betty's thought was, she thinks Betty's thought was

551
00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:53,400
Speaker 3: when Max he's how miserable I am and how much

552
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:55,639
Speaker 3: I love him, he'll realize that we should be together.

553
00:27:56,280 --> 00:28:04,159
Speaker 3: So just teenage decisions. Horrifying redirection. Yeah, so something terribly

554
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:08,400
Speaker 3: flawed led him to step over the line and shoot.

555
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 3: And so at that point, A highway patrolman who was

556
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,080
Speaker 3: present at the scene says, quote, it didn't move him

557
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:17,359
Speaker 3: when he pulled her body out of the water, or

558
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 3: when he said that he put a shotgun.

559
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 2: Pete had put a shot under her head.

560
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,439
Speaker 3: It was as cold blooded and premeditated as it could be.

561
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:29,200
Speaker 1: So this so the authorities think that he did do

562
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:30,640
Speaker 1: it like wanted to do it.

563
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:34,000
Speaker 3: It sounds like they didn't see any remorse and didn't

564
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 3: show any fear or regret, is what they think. Mac

565
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 3: is charged with Betty's murder, But it sounds like he

566
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:43,960
Speaker 3: gets out on parole in the beginning because he goes

567
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:47,000
Speaker 3: back to school and around town and he doesn't experience

568
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:50,560
Speaker 3: any negative impacts to his social standing. He still goes

569
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 3: to parties. Remember he was, like, you know, football player, popular.

570
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 3: He goes to parties, he goes to he still dates girls,

571
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 3: still still him. And the attitude around town by everyone

572
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:05,400
Speaker 3: except for Betty's close friends, is that she tricked Mac

573
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 3: into killing her, so they have sympathy for him, And

574
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:13,480
Speaker 3: you know, her friends don't believe it at all, and

575
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:18,960
Speaker 3: you know, maybe who knows, But in nineteen sixty one,

576
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 3: you know, the mentality was so different, of course, and

577
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:24,480
Speaker 3: just as Betty was never offered any kind of resources

578
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:27,520
Speaker 3: when she was asking classmates to kill her, no mental

579
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:30,080
Speaker 3: health resources were offered to the students at Odessa High

580
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:33,680
Speaker 3: School in the aftermath of her murder, Mac is charged

581
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,480
Speaker 3: and his case goes to trial a year later, in

582
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 3: February of a senior year of high school. At the time,

583
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:43,240
Speaker 3: this is without about the biggest crime story in Texas

584
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:46,160
Speaker 3: in decades. The press gives it the name kiss and

585
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 3: Kill murder, and it's a huge pool of jury selection,

586
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:54,800
Speaker 3: So there's like hundreds of teenagers showing up to the

587
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:57,280
Speaker 3: trial to watch it and just people are obsessed with it.

588
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:01,400
Speaker 3: Most people expect Mac to be convicted because he admitted

589
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 3: to shooting Betty, and what winds up happening is that

590
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:09,120
Speaker 3: his lawyers mount a temporary insanity defense and he takes

591
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 3: the stand saying he deeply regrets his actions, but at

592
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:14,920
Speaker 3: the moment he was convinced he was doing the right thing.

593
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 3: And in the end, after eleven hours of deliberation, the

594
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 3: jury finds Mac not guilty. The prosecutor tries to appeal

595
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 3: a decision, but the verdict is upheld and Mac goes

596
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 3: on to live a very normal life, remaining in Odessa,

597
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 3: and dies at the age of seventy five in twenty nineteen.

598
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:39,040
Speaker 1: I know like what I mean, Yeah, this is this

599
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:43,920
Speaker 1: is an insane story. I've never heard this, and I mean, just.

600
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 3: Like imagine being on that jury, Like how do you

601
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 3: how do you make a last decision?

602
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 1: If you read this story in the news, Like if

603
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 1: I did, I would absolutely go to that courthouse because

604
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 1: I'd be like, what is going on? Like how are

605
00:30:57,560 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 1: they even arguing?

606
00:30:58,800 --> 00:30:58,920
Speaker 2: Right?

607
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 1: What are the detail this and how are they arguing? Right?

608
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:08,560
Speaker 3: Right? Yeah, So, as I said, Betty's cousin wrote, Shelton

609
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:10,280
Speaker 3: wrote this, wrote the memoir.

610
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 2: While he was writing.

611
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:14,160
Speaker 3: In two thousand and one, he visits Odessa High School

612
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 3: and by that point a lot of Betty's story had

613
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 3: been lost to time and the students don't really.

614
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:19,959
Speaker 2: Know the details.

615
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:24,280
Speaker 3: But Betty's ghost is like a big deal at Odessa

616
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 3: High School, Like there's tales of it everywhere. So some

617
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:32,240
Speaker 3: believe that if you drive up to the side of

618
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:35,840
Speaker 3: the school auditorium and blink your lights, she'll appear. And

619
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 3: they talk about her being in the auditorium where the

620
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:42,000
Speaker 3: theater was. That's like where she remains because she wanted

621
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 3: to be so you can see her ghosts there. Others

622
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:48,960
Speaker 3: think you can see her in the sports field, and

623
00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 3: a teacher says, quote there's even a propriety dispute between

624
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:56,480
Speaker 3: athletics and theater about whose ghosts she is.

625
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 1: He says, I, okay, that's okay, that shouldn't be going on.

626
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 1: Let's settle that dispute and just say it's everybody's fucking ghost.

627
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:06,680
Speaker 1: What are you doing?

628
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:09,600
Speaker 2: And I mean there could be more than one ghosts, right.

629
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:12,320
Speaker 1: I mean she belongs to everyone.

630
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, well this person said that I can settle that one.

631
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,440
Speaker 2: She belongs to the theater. Oh oh, it's kind of sweet.

632
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 3: That they like claim her, you know, yeah maybe. And

633
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 3: Rachel the Murderino, who doesn't listen anymore, said quote, I

634
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 3: graduated from Odessa High School. Betty is a fixture in

635
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:35,920
Speaker 3: the culture of the school, where kids go on Betty

636
00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 3: Hunt's late at night in around campus, where they hope

637
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:42,040
Speaker 3: to see her in the windows of the auditorium peering

638
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 3: out over the school. Theater productions tend to ask for

639
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 3: Betty's blessing so everything goes smoothly as.

640
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:51,880
Speaker 2: Well before their new play, so she's.

641
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:55,400
Speaker 3: Remembered and the your students say, sometimes doors closed mysteriously,

642
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 3: or furniture moves mysteriously, stage lights like.

643
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 2: Blink on and off.

644
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:06,280
Speaker 3: If you say the name Betty, sometimes you hear unaccounted

645
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:09,800
Speaker 3: for footsteps crossing the stage, and her presence is always

646
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 3: talked about fondly at Ardessa High School. Betty is now

647
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:16,560
Speaker 3: beloved and that is the story of the Kiss and

648
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:17,600
Speaker 3: Kill Murder.

649
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:36,480
Speaker 1: Wow, wow, so heavy, thank you, incredible, incredible, wild I'm

650
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 1: going to take a left turn now.

651
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:40,160
Speaker 3: Pleez, Why don't I just talked him to the fan

652
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:41,680
Speaker 3: and not the microphone.

653
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 1: You got to take those theater classes, I swear to God. Okay, well,

654
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you a story that's very different,

655
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 1: and it kind of is about I think the simplest

656
00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:59,960
Speaker 1: way to boil it down is like nerds for texts,

657
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 1: Texas nerds, right, Okay. So it starts in nineteen seventy

658
00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:09,920
Speaker 1: nine when a twenty seven year old rare books dealer

659
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 1: in Austin named Tom Taylor gets what he thinks is

660
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:17,200
Speaker 1: this golden opportunity, a chance to buy a valuable document

661
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:20,279
Speaker 1: at a very low price, a copy of the Texas

662
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:21,839
Speaker 1: Declaration of Independence.

663
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:22,319
Speaker 3: Huh.

664
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:23,200
Speaker 2: You guys have your own.

665
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:28,959
Speaker 1: Yuh. These are a very independent group of people. Oh yeah,

666
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 1: and they liked things big.

667
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:31,320
Speaker 3: Okay.

668
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:35,480
Speaker 1: So for anyone who isn't from the state or who

669
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 1: might need a refresher as to why Texas has its

670
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:40,920
Speaker 1: own declaration of independence, that's me.

671
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:43,920
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, Karen the scholar, you're gonna tell us tell

672
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 3: us everything.

673
00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:48,600
Speaker 1: Yeap, yes, what okay? That's because Texas used to be

674
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:52,760
Speaker 1: a part of Mexico until it declared independence in eighteen

675
00:34:52,920 --> 00:35:00,959
Speaker 1: thirty six. You got it, which was the same year

676
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:05,880
Speaker 1: that the Declaration of Independence was published, and it was

677
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 1: an independent The state was an independent republic for nearly

678
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:13,759
Speaker 1: ten years after breaking away from Mexico before joining the

679
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:25,440
Speaker 1: United States in good jo, Yes, Texas, fucking she knew,

680
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:28,880
Speaker 1: she knew we were going to ask. That was incredible?

681
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 3: Did it? Oh? Wait, it really is, Mulan Rouge, it is.

682
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:37,439
Speaker 3: She was making it up like, oh, it's so, it's red.

683
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 1: You just reading, just reading like I always do. And

684
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:45,319
Speaker 1: then the next thing I wrote was history lesson over.

685
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:51,360
Speaker 1: So the seller who approaches Tom to sell this is

686
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 1: asking for eleven thousand dollars for his copy of the

687
00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:57,840
Speaker 1: Texas Declaration of Independence, which would be around give it

688
00:35:57,840 --> 00:35:58,240
Speaker 1: a whirl.

689
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 2: What sev seventy nine to eleven thousand is going.

690
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:05,719
Speaker 3: To be sixty eight thousand and fifty. Oh, by the way,

691
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:08,400
Speaker 3: that we're retiring this this tour, which.

692
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 1: Decided because Georgia keeps saying that I refuse.

693
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 2: I just hate it.

694
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 3: It's never We're never right, disappointing every time.

695
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:19,279
Speaker 1: That's kind of why I love it.

696
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:21,280
Speaker 2: That's fine, that sounds like the podcast.

697
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:22,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like that's us.

698
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:23,880
Speaker 3: We're just disappointing, but we love it.

699
00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:29,160
Speaker 1: Disappointing. We're never really right, but we love it. So

700
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:33,279
Speaker 1: while Tom's specialty is actually English literature, he knows enough

701
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:36,319
Speaker 1: about rare the rare items business that he's willing to

702
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:38,960
Speaker 1: bet that he can resell this copy for a way

703
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:41,759
Speaker 1: higher price. And so he buys it. And then he

704
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:43,440
Speaker 1: gets win that there's a group of men who have

705
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:46,200
Speaker 1: raised enough money to buy a copy of the United

706
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:50,200
Speaker 1: States Declaration of Independence. You've heard of that the Nicholas

707
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:55,120
Speaker 1: Cage one, because they want to display it in Dallas.

708
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:58,200
Speaker 1: So Tom talks these men into buying his copy of

709
00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 1: the Texas Declaration of Independence to like, get the same

710
00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:03,719
Speaker 1: frame and go right next to it.

711
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 3: Twins twinsy's.

712
00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:13,120
Speaker 1: They agree on the price of twenty thousand dollars. All right,

713
00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:16,640
Speaker 1: that's a profit and which in today's money might.

714
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:19,279
Speaker 3: Be sixty eight thousand dollars. Now you don't do the

715
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 3: same mode because it was okay, eighty two thousand dollars

716
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:26,240
Speaker 3: ninety very close. Okay.

717
00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:29,200
Speaker 1: But first, obviously these men want to check the Texas

718
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:34,560
Speaker 1: Declaration of Independence's authenticity. Sure, so they compare Tom's version

719
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:38,000
Speaker 1: of it. I say, Texas Declaration of Independence. In this story,

720
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 1: about one hundred times. Let's call it the td the

721
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:44,480
Speaker 1: TDI TDI.

722
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:45,040
Speaker 3: There you go.

723
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:47,480
Speaker 1: That sounds like one of those technical colleges you go to.

724
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:50,600
Speaker 1: There's commercials for it, and I went to TDI and

725
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:56,760
Speaker 1: now I have a job. So they compare Tom's TDI

726
00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:00,560
Speaker 1: against the copies that are held right here in Austin

727
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:02,440
Speaker 1: at the University of Texas.

728
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 3: Okay, so like there's legit, So there's a legit one.

729
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 3: Then they could be like like pull them up next

730
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:09,480
Speaker 3: to each other.

731
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:13,239
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly, there was the original and then they made copies.

732
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:13,719
Speaker 3: Got it.

733
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:16,160
Speaker 1: I'll go into that later. But if I guess the

734
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:19,640
Speaker 1: amount of copies and the details, I'll be wrong. She'll

735
00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 1: be right, but I'll be wrong.

736
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:22,480
Speaker 3: Okay.

737
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:25,759
Speaker 1: So the only difference that they can find when they

738
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:29,319
Speaker 1: compare it is that the text on Palm's copy looks

739
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:32,879
Speaker 1: a little bit blurry compared to the rest. But when

740
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:38,879
Speaker 1: the original documents were printed back in now eighteen thirty six,

741
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:40,920
Speaker 1: because when they were printed, it's when they were printed,

742
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:48,360
Speaker 1: they printed one thousand total, the printers is she arguing,

743
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:50,880
Speaker 1: She's like, that's actually incorrect, and I wish you wouldn't

744
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:54,120
Speaker 1: continue with the story until you get it right. The

745
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:57,239
Speaker 1: printers that made them had to issue a public apology

746
00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:02,120
Speaker 1: for inconsistencies and quality because the original printers they had

747
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:07,000
Speaker 1: to print those amid actual battles with Mexican troops, so

748
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:09,480
Speaker 1: sometimes they were in the dark, they were breaking, they

749
00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 1: were like setting up and breaking down the printing presses.

750
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:14,399
Speaker 3: They can't take a break, No, like a couple months

751
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:17,840
Speaker 3: off or something from war. No, they don't let it.

752
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:22,160
Speaker 1: They just won't let you. So they had to move

753
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 1: them from place to place. And so actually the blurry

754
00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:29,120
Speaker 1: text kind of makes it seem like they're legit. And

755
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:33,560
Speaker 1: so they these men pay Tom twenty thousand dollars, and

756
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:36,120
Speaker 1: not long after, Tom gets a chance to buy yet

757
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:39,640
Speaker 1: another copy of the Texas Declaration of Independence, this time

758
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:43,680
Speaker 1: for fifteen thousand dollars. And now this feels extremely lucky

759
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 1: because that first sale went so well. So Tom jumps

760
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:50,680
Speaker 1: on this sale too, and he winds up reselling this

761
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:53,120
Speaker 1: copy for thirty thousand.

762
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 2: Dollars ninety nine.

763
00:39:57,440 --> 00:39:57,640
Speaker 4: Five.

764
00:39:58,440 --> 00:39:59,879
Speaker 2: See, just it's never set.

765
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 1: It's not satisfying. So that was kind of just irritating.

766
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:08,240
Speaker 1: Then lo and behold, Tom finds out about a third opportunity.

767
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:10,440
Speaker 3: No, I think we're all onto him.

768
00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:16,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, so this one, it's for thirty he resells it

769
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:18,520
Speaker 1: for thirty three. We don't have to worry about what

770
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:22,120
Speaker 1: happens to in today's money. But this is when Tom

771
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:25,200
Speaker 1: starts to question his luck. There were only a thousand

772
00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:29,520
Speaker 1: copies of the original printed before nineteen seventy. There were

773
00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:33,719
Speaker 1: only five known original copies left, okay, And so he's like,

774
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:36,080
Speaker 1: I run across three of the five.

775
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:36,840
Speaker 3: That's insane.

776
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:39,479
Speaker 1: So he starts to worry if what he has bought

777
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:43,719
Speaker 1: and sold are fake, and if so, who is making them?

778
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:47,040
Speaker 1: And this is the story of Tom Taylor's investigation into

779
00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:48,759
Speaker 1: the Techsana artifacts.

780
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:51,719
Speaker 2: Wow, yes or no?

781
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:56,759
Speaker 3: He should have just walked away and you know it well,

782
00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:00,719
Speaker 3: enjoyed they bought it, not my problem, just never thinks

783
00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:01,360
Speaker 3: about it again.

784
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:03,759
Speaker 1: But that's the thing. He's a good guy, Okay. So

785
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:07,520
Speaker 1: the sources for this story that we used are an

786
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:13,280
Speaker 1: article from the Great Texas Monthly entitled Forgery Texas Style

787
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:17,240
Speaker 1: by a writer named Gregory Curtis, and then an article

788
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 1: from The New York Times called Lone Star Fakes by

789
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:23,960
Speaker 1: Lisa Belkin, and an article from the Antiques road Shows

790
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:29,120
Speaker 1: subpage I Love their website called who faked the Texas

791
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 1: Independent Documents by Sarah Kay Elliott. You know when antiques

792
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:37,440
Speaker 1: roadshows getting in on this ship, it is serious. The

793
00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:39,600
Speaker 1: rest are in our future show notes that don't exist

794
00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:42,799
Speaker 1: right now. So we're going to talk now about what

795
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:47,879
Speaker 1: I said there, which is Texana the Texana Artifacts. So

796
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:51,400
Speaker 1: Texana is I've never heard of it. It's basically anything

797
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:54,960
Speaker 1: reminiscent of the culture of Texas. So like the delicious

798
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:58,040
Speaker 1: text mex cuisine I've been eating, or Honky Tonts, or

799
00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:02,440
Speaker 1: your cowboy boots or chick bingo, chicken shit bingo in

800
00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 1: the afternoon.

801
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:06,239
Speaker 3: You don't know how sad we were when we found

802
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:07,359
Speaker 3: out it's Sunday's only.

803
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 1: Oh I know, that was one of the best days

804
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:13,560
Speaker 1: of our life being a chicken chick bingo. Yeah, it

805
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:14,240
Speaker 1: was epic.

806
00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:18,279
Speaker 2: I don't think anyone knows what we're talking about. We did, Yeah,

807
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:18,480
Speaker 2: they do.

808
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:22,920
Speaker 3: You guys have chicken shit Bingo is fucking Austin so awesome.

809
00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:29,600
Speaker 1: Jealous. One of the other one of these other things

810
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:31,920
Speaker 1: that I wanted to name is Willie Nelson getting Stone,

811
00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:35,399
Speaker 1: but it's too late now because it's okay. We needed

812
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:39,799
Speaker 1: to have a chicken ship bingo moment. Either way, this

813
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:43,319
Speaker 1: is basically a catch all for historic artifacts or collectibles

814
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:47,719
Speaker 1: like old maps, personal items owned by Texas's forefathers. So

815
00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:51,960
Speaker 1: for decades following the formation of modern Texas, there isn't

816
00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:57,319
Speaker 1: much interest in these kinds of items from collectors or

817
00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 1: rare items dealers as a whole, so even very important

818
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:04,920
Speaker 1: artifacts like the Texas Declaration of Independence are not considered

819
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:11,799
Speaker 1: particularly valuable. The first notable Texana collector is a New

820
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:16,560
Speaker 1: Jersey oil businessman and a history buff named Thomas Streeter.

821
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:19,799
Speaker 1: So he takes a lot of business trips out to

822
00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:22,239
Speaker 1: Texas in the twenties and thirties, and he buys a

823
00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:25,280
Speaker 1: bunch of books and artifacts, and he is actually credited

824
00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:30,120
Speaker 1: with gathering the first significant collection of Texana in the world.

825
00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:34,200
Speaker 1: But in nineteen fifty seven, when Streeter offers to sell

826
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:38,279
Speaker 1: his entire collection to the University of Texas, interest in

827
00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:42,640
Speaker 1: Texana is so low they don't want it. No thanks,

828
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:46,040
Speaker 1: We're not interested in our own history or anything that's been.

829
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:47,600
Speaker 3: Going on here, oh man.

830
00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:54,719
Speaker 1: So he winds up selling everything to Yale boo. Even

831
00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:57,640
Speaker 1: the Texas state government doesn't care much about the historical

832
00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:01,520
Speaker 1: documents in their possession land grants, meeting minutes, even the

833
00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:06,400
Speaker 1: original manuscript of the famous Texas Revolutionary era victory or

834
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:10,839
Speaker 1: death letter that William B. Travis wrote, which is the

835
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:15,359
Speaker 1: namesake of the county that we're in right now. Those

836
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:18,880
Speaker 1: are all put on display without any security measures. And

837
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:23,600
Speaker 1: in the sixties, countless historical artifacts are stolen from public institutions.

838
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:26,480
Speaker 3: It's like going into a diner and like taking the

839
00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:29,960
Speaker 3: solemn pepper shaker and like, eyoink, I'll take that, But it's.

840
00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:35,720
Speaker 1: The Texas Declaration of motherfucking Independence. No one cares. They're

841
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:37,960
Speaker 1: just gone. People are like, I thought we had that

842
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:40,680
Speaker 1: thing up here, and actually, could we take a look

843
00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:44,000
Speaker 1: because we can see what it would have looked like. Yeah,

844
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:46,359
Speaker 1: it's just like, who stole my big thing?

845
00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:50,360
Speaker 3: I could have sworn this wasn't an empty frame yesterday.

846
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:53,799
Speaker 1: I guess you just replace it with any old other

847
00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:57,000
Speaker 1: newspaper front page or something. You're just like, unless you've

848
00:44:57,040 --> 00:45:02,879
Speaker 1: got your readers on, you have no idea. But then

849
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:07,600
Speaker 1: Texas's economic boom and the growth of urban sprawl. I

850
00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:09,520
Speaker 1: don't know if you heard about this, but Texas got

851
00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:12,879
Speaker 1: zuper rich on oil a little after this, So these

852
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:18,080
Speaker 1: old traditional rural ways of life start disappearing across the state, right,

853
00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:21,640
Speaker 1: and as they do, the older generations start to pass away,

854
00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:24,560
Speaker 1: and there's this new sense of nostalgia for the old

855
00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:27,480
Speaker 1: way of Texas living, and people get more interested in

856
00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:30,960
Speaker 1: finding and collecting Texana and the value of these items

857
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:33,680
Speaker 1: start going up and up, and as they do, rare

858
00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:37,640
Speaker 1: items dealers in the state start prioritizing Texana. It becomes

859
00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:38,759
Speaker 1: more and more profitable.

860
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:40,040
Speaker 3: Heading into the seventies.

861
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:43,200
Speaker 1: Now there's security guards standing in front of that framed

862
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:47,120
Speaker 1: piece of paper. So in nineteen eighty six, a few

863
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:52,600
Speaker 1: years after Tom Taylor's first declaration score, his suspicions are confirmed.

864
00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:55,440
Speaker 1: And so let's take can we take a look at

865
00:45:55,440 --> 00:46:00,759
Speaker 1: Tom Taylor. This is him in twenty twenty one. Yeah,

866
00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:05,719
Speaker 1: he likes books, so honest history, he loves the past.

867
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:07,640
Speaker 3: And he's honest. He doesn't take the money and run.

868
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:11,400
Speaker 1: But he also based on that shirt party's party totally.

869
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:15,600
Speaker 1: He's like, make no mistake, I will be at Chicken

870
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:22,319
Speaker 1: Chip Bingo this Sunday, meet me there. Okay, but this

871
00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:26,160
Speaker 1: is nineteen eighty six, Okay, So this is the year

872
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:29,439
Speaker 1: that Tom learns a friend and fellow printer was asked

873
00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:34,480
Speaker 1: to authenticate yet another original copy of the TDI, and

874
00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:38,200
Speaker 1: it had recently come up on the rare items market,

875
00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:43,480
Speaker 1: and so his friend started comparing the copy against one

876
00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:46,840
Speaker 1: housed at the University of Texas, and at first glanced

877
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:50,640
Speaker 1: they seemed identical, but then he spotted a crucial difference.

878
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:55,160
Speaker 1: The text on his copy seemed much narrower than the original.

879
00:46:55,960 --> 00:46:59,359
Speaker 1: So Tom's friend, like any good printer, knows that ink

880
00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:04,800
Speaker 1: doesn't rink over time, especially when it has led in it,

881
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:07,200
Speaker 1: which is what they used in the back then in

882
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:10,279
Speaker 1: the eighteen thirties. So the only explanation was that this

883
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:14,960
Speaker 1: document he was authenticating was printed way after and it

884
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:17,600
Speaker 1: was a fake. So now Tom decides he's going to

885
00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:20,879
Speaker 1: devote his time to becoming the go to guy when

886
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:25,000
Speaker 1: it comes to authenticating the Texas Declaration of the Independence,

887
00:47:25,480 --> 00:47:27,000
Speaker 1: which is quite a pastime.

888
00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:29,239
Speaker 3: I mean, you're at a party and you ask someone

889
00:47:29,239 --> 00:47:32,080
Speaker 3: what they do and they say that, how do you respond?

890
00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:32,719
Speaker 3: It's like.

891
00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:36,320
Speaker 1: You have you watched Real Housewives?

892
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:38,800
Speaker 3: It's also good.

893
00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:46,160
Speaker 1: So he hunts down the twenty ish known copies, the

894
00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:48,680
Speaker 1: ones that are on display and also in private collections,

895
00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:52,719
Speaker 1: and he forensically analyzes them, and he discovers there are

896
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:56,680
Speaker 1: actually ten, not five. Has previously thought that our genuine

897
00:47:57,080 --> 00:48:00,440
Speaker 1: copies of the TDI, which means about half of them

898
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:05,120
Speaker 1: are fakes, so including two copies that Tom bought and

899
00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:08,880
Speaker 1: sold himself. So he's a part of it. Oh shit, Yeah,

900
00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:09,839
Speaker 1: but he didn't like that.

901
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:12,600
Speaker 2: No, don't make me a criminal.

902
00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:15,280
Speaker 1: No, no, no, for sure, but they're really good fakes.

903
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:19,360
Speaker 1: So the people in the institutions that have been duped

904
00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:25,360
Speaker 1: by these fakes include several universities here in Texas and beyond,

905
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:29,120
Speaker 1: the Dallas Public Library, and even the private collection of

906
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:35,440
Speaker 1: former Governor Bill Clements. But got some Clements heads in

907
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:43,320
Speaker 1: the house tonight. Yeah. So Tom starts finding very subtle

908
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:47,320
Speaker 1: tells in these fakes, like inaccuracies and text dimensions stay

909
00:48:47,360 --> 00:48:51,120
Speaker 1: with me, use of inks and fonts that don't exist back.

910
00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:54,120
Speaker 3: Then, someone did copy paste and like shrunk the fond Yeah,

911
00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:54,640
Speaker 3: come on.

912
00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:58,600
Speaker 1: Guys, come on, it just says Yahoo at the bottom.

913
00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:02,400
Speaker 1: And there's even small typos in the face.

914
00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:03,000
Speaker 2: No.

915
00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:06,640
Speaker 1: So, by looking through sales records, Tom's able to trace

916
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:11,279
Speaker 1: these face fakes back to these three dealers who are

917
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:15,800
Speaker 1: very active in the seventies. They I'm going to introduce

918
00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:21,239
Speaker 1: you now to these three rare like antake through these

919
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:24,480
Speaker 1: Texana dealers, starting with a man named John Jenkins. So

920
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:26,680
Speaker 1: we take a look at John Jenkins.

921
00:49:26,719 --> 00:49:29,319
Speaker 3: Oh oh, we got a lot of chips in front

922
00:49:29,360 --> 00:49:33,799
Speaker 3: of him. Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah, that's a fucking time

923
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:39,000
Speaker 3: and place. That's like you that cigarette and those nails. Yep.

924
00:49:39,200 --> 00:49:42,200
Speaker 3: Over that lady over there. Fuck yeah, she's.

925
00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:45,400
Speaker 1: Like she's raised raise you got it, you got a

926
00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:45,920
Speaker 1: good hand.

927
00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:52,399
Speaker 3: Raise you should raise a stay stay.

928
00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:57,799
Speaker 1: He's winning this chips. Yeah, okay. John Jenkins grew up

929
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:02,920
Speaker 1: in Beaumont, Texas, and it's great, right, It's so awesome,

930
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:08,080
Speaker 1: all the chips and hats. He takes an early interest

931
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:11,240
Speaker 1: in rare objects. He like as a kid, makes money

932
00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:14,359
Speaker 1: selling rare coins, and then when he graduates from UT

933
00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:17,640
Speaker 1: he starts his own business selling rare coins and books

934
00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:21,759
Speaker 1: and historical documents. But he's also a big Texas personality.

935
00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:26,360
Speaker 1: He's fond of Stetson's as we saw alert calligator skinned

936
00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:31,319
Speaker 1: cowboy boots like you like, and even mink coats like

937
00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:36,239
Speaker 1: I like what he wears mink coats.

938
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:38,440
Speaker 3: Oh shit, yeah, I didn't put that together.

939
00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:41,719
Speaker 1: Put that whole look together. The alligator boots and a

940
00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:45,520
Speaker 1: mink coat, nice stets on, probably in nice one of

941
00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:50,080
Speaker 1: those brown cigarettes. It's real long yeah, and some barbecue.

942
00:50:50,760 --> 00:50:50,920
Speaker 3: Uh.

943
00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:55,440
Speaker 1: He sits behind a massive desk in an equally massive

944
00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:59,480
Speaker 1: mahogany chair decorated with snake and dragon carvings, and he

945
00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:02,640
Speaker 1: spends his off hours, as we saw in the photo,

946
00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:06,920
Speaker 1: gambling in Vegas under the fake name Austin Squatty.

947
00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:09,960
Speaker 2: Does that mean something we don't know?

948
00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:17,160
Speaker 1: Perhaps? No, they say no Squatty, Austin Squatty. I'm gonna

949
00:51:17,239 --> 00:51:20,560
Speaker 1: check into hotels with that name from now on. You'll

950
00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:24,680
Speaker 1: never find me. He's a high roller, regularly winning and

951
00:51:24,719 --> 00:51:31,760
Speaker 1: losing enormous amounts of money at the tables. So another

952
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:34,759
Speaker 1: dealer is named William Simpson. He's far less eccentric, but

953
00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:38,360
Speaker 1: equally successful at selling his collectibles. He opens his shop

954
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:42,000
Speaker 1: in Houston in nineteen sixty four, and he's selling cusa.

955
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:43,759
Speaker 1: He sells.

956
00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:46,400
Speaker 3: What that's it?

957
00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:48,439
Speaker 1: Am I wrong? Or did that sound like a boo

958
00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:49,680
Speaker 1: and a yea at the same time?

959
00:51:51,239 --> 00:51:51,359
Speaker 7: So?

960
00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:52,439
Speaker 1: Whose side are we on?

961
00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:55,560
Speaker 2: We're neutral? We're neutral.

962
00:51:55,960 --> 00:52:02,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, we love everybody equally. He sells things like crystals,

963
00:52:02,120 --> 00:52:05,640
Speaker 1: linens and furniture. But as Texana becomes more popular, he

964
00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:09,200
Speaker 1: jumps on that bandwagon and he starts holding auctions that

965
00:52:09,239 --> 00:52:12,720
Speaker 1: are packed and profitable. Half the time people are buying

966
00:52:12,719 --> 00:52:15,839
Speaker 1: from rarit these dealers like Jenkins and Simpson, but they

967
00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:20,319
Speaker 1: aren't collectors or enthusiasts. They're usually other rarities dealers who

968
00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:23,000
Speaker 1: want to get something for less and then turn it

969
00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:25,160
Speaker 1: around and sell it for a bigger profit. That's how

970
00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:28,760
Speaker 1: popular it has become. And that's what Tom Taylor was doing.

971
00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:32,640
Speaker 1: And this makes very highly competitive industry full of gossip

972
00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:37,920
Speaker 1: and clickiness and enemies and frenemies, just like the Real Housewives.

973
00:52:39,640 --> 00:52:41,799
Speaker 1: Having a good eye and good taste is one thing,

974
00:52:41,960 --> 00:52:44,839
Speaker 1: but without the right people's skills, a dealer could be

975
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:48,080
Speaker 1: dismissed as kind of a joke. And that's exactly how

976
00:52:48,120 --> 00:52:51,640
Speaker 1: both Jenkins and Simpson come to view the man linked

977
00:52:51,680 --> 00:52:54,360
Speaker 1: to all the dupes Tom Taylor keeps finding. And that

978
00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:57,600
Speaker 1: man's name is ce Dorman David, and I think we

979
00:52:57,640 --> 00:52:58,680
Speaker 1: have a picture of Hill.

980
00:53:01,560 --> 00:53:03,640
Speaker 2: Got He looks like your new stepdad.

981
00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:07,080
Speaker 3: You know what I mean? Kids, I met a man.

982
00:53:07,680 --> 00:53:11,239
Speaker 3: I don't want you to meet your new stepdad. Yeah,

983
00:53:12,239 --> 00:53:12,520
Speaker 3: you know.

984
00:53:12,920 --> 00:53:16,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a bit of a He's like, I'm going

985
00:53:16,880 --> 00:53:18,800
Speaker 1: to stop dying my hair, but I'm not going to

986
00:53:18,840 --> 00:53:20,200
Speaker 1: stop dying my eyebrows.

987
00:53:21,160 --> 00:53:24,319
Speaker 3: That vibe, it's a look.

988
00:53:24,719 --> 00:53:26,880
Speaker 1: There's an amazing picture of him that I think Molly

989
00:53:26,880 --> 00:53:29,120
Speaker 1: didn't clear for like we couldn't clear it. But it's

990
00:53:29,160 --> 00:53:31,360
Speaker 1: black and white. He's kind of like this. It looks

991
00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:34,640
Speaker 1: like he wrote a book about Carl Jung or something.

992
00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:36,640
Speaker 1: So he's kind of like this, and he's got a

993
00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:39,160
Speaker 1: turtleneck and a blazer on and he's like over to

994
00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:42,040
Speaker 1: the side. And that's the last picture I saw. So

995
00:53:42,120 --> 00:53:45,200
Speaker 1: I forgot this is the picture. This has a true

996
00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:51,719
Speaker 1: AI quality where it's yeah, but anyway, where he is So.

997
00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:53,960
Speaker 1: He was born in nineteen thirty seven in Houston to

998
00:53:54,280 --> 00:53:58,080
Speaker 1: very very wealthy parents. He grows up. He's a tall,

999
00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:02,319
Speaker 1: imposing man. He has a reputation as a both a womanizer.

1000
00:54:02,680 --> 00:54:07,919
Speaker 1: He ends up having applot for the woman absolutely because

1001
00:54:07,960 --> 00:54:10,680
Speaker 1: you know why he has seven wives over the span

1002
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:11,400
Speaker 1: of his life.

1003
00:54:11,440 --> 00:54:18,120
Speaker 3: Seriously, Yes, I wasn't wrong, step Dad, stepdad, Stepdad's yes. Yeah.

1004
00:54:18,560 --> 00:54:21,560
Speaker 1: They just keep having to go here's your new stuff, Dad,

1005
00:54:22,239 --> 00:54:23,000
Speaker 1: roll it through.

1006
00:54:23,200 --> 00:54:25,799
Speaker 3: He keeps taking me to the tracks when he tells Bom,

1007
00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:26,960
Speaker 3: we're actually going to the mall.

1008
00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:28,960
Speaker 2: It takes me to the tracks to bet on horses.

1009
00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:32,320
Speaker 1: You know, he keeps asking me to pluck his eyebrows

1010
00:54:32,360 --> 00:54:34,840
Speaker 1: for him.

1011
00:54:34,880 --> 00:54:36,240
Speaker 3: It's cheap and wrong.

1012
00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:41,279
Speaker 1: Obviously, he's an incredibly you know, charismatic and charming man

1013
00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:43,440
Speaker 1: because he marries and divorces women.

1014
00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:45,440
Speaker 3: So yeah, you gotta do it for at least a minute.

1015
00:54:45,560 --> 00:54:50,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, high five, Okay. But he also has a reputation

1016
00:54:50,680 --> 00:54:53,200
Speaker 1: of being a real wild card. There's a story that

1017
00:54:53,280 --> 00:54:57,440
Speaker 1: everyone tells about David wanting to go buy cigarettes and

1018
00:54:57,480 --> 00:54:59,720
Speaker 1: he drives his car through the front of the store,

1019
00:55:00,239 --> 00:55:03,240
Speaker 1: Like what the fuck. Yeah, He's just like, I can't

1020
00:55:03,760 --> 00:55:06,240
Speaker 1: bother to park. I gotta get in there.

1021
00:55:07,040 --> 00:55:08,359
Speaker 2: Just go all the way.

1022
00:55:08,440 --> 00:55:10,600
Speaker 3: I guess. Yeah, do you want those cigarettes?

1023
00:55:10,719 --> 00:55:15,440
Speaker 1: Make those people clean it up. So he's also known

1024
00:55:15,480 --> 00:55:18,160
Speaker 1: for his rich knowledge of Texas history and his great

1025
00:55:18,280 --> 00:55:21,000
Speaker 1: eye for artifacts. When he's in his twenties, he starts

1026
00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:25,040
Speaker 1: traveling through Texas through the South then into Mexico, aggressively

1027
00:55:25,080 --> 00:55:28,200
Speaker 1: collecting texana and other rare items, and by the mid

1028
00:55:28,239 --> 00:55:31,080
Speaker 1: sixties he opens a shop in Houston called the Bookman.

1029
00:55:32,120 --> 00:55:37,000
Speaker 1: No liar, You're lying. It's a beautiful store filled with

1030
00:55:37,040 --> 00:55:41,799
Speaker 1: an impressive collection, but it actually looks so ostentatious that

1031
00:55:41,880 --> 00:55:45,160
Speaker 1: it intimidates customers and people don't go there. What it's

1032
00:55:45,200 --> 00:55:46,280
Speaker 1: like too fancy.

1033
00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:46,840
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1034
00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:52,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, So the store doesn't make much money, but David's rich.

1035
00:55:53,040 --> 00:55:54,920
Speaker 1: He's a rich Nepo baby, so he doesn't care, and

1036
00:55:55,000 --> 00:55:57,240
Speaker 1: he just keeps running that business.

1037
00:55:57,080 --> 00:55:58,280
Speaker 2: And marrying those women.

1038
00:55:58,440 --> 00:56:01,480
Speaker 1: Yep. He's like, well, if no one comes in and

1039
00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:03,440
Speaker 1: buys something today, I'm going to have to get a

1040
00:56:03,480 --> 00:56:07,600
Speaker 1: divorce and remarry someone else. That's it, Yeah, I have to.

1041
00:56:08,719 --> 00:56:11,640
Speaker 1: It does bother him though, that his fellow dealers, John

1042
00:56:11,680 --> 00:56:15,200
Speaker 1: Jenkins and William Simpson keep besting him in the deals

1043
00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:20,080
Speaker 1: that they're making, especially Jenkins. They trade with each other often,

1044
00:56:20,120 --> 00:56:23,440
Speaker 1: and because David has the better eye, he actually finds

1045
00:56:23,480 --> 00:56:26,640
Speaker 1: and gets the most valuable items first in his collection.

1046
00:56:27,120 --> 00:56:30,800
Speaker 1: But then Jenkins is such a masterful negotiator he always

1047
00:56:30,840 --> 00:56:34,840
Speaker 1: seems to successfully lowball David, who is a little bit gullible.

1048
00:56:34,960 --> 00:56:37,439
Speaker 1: So David's all about the like, this is the real

1049
00:56:37,520 --> 00:56:39,839
Speaker 1: deal and the legit thing, and I paid this much

1050
00:56:39,880 --> 00:56:42,640
Speaker 1: money for it, and then Jenkins is like, waits until

1051
00:56:42,880 --> 00:56:44,600
Speaker 1: no one else makes an offer and he's like, fine,

1052
00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:47,440
Speaker 1: I'll give you half, and that keeps happening. So what

1053
00:56:47,600 --> 00:56:51,400
Speaker 1: starts out as a strong, you know, working friendship sours

1054
00:56:51,719 --> 00:56:55,919
Speaker 1: and these men become enemies. But even beyond Jenkins, it's

1055
00:56:56,239 --> 00:56:59,000
Speaker 1: really the dealing community at large that David has a

1056
00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:02,719
Speaker 1: problem with. He has a well known habit of overspending.

1057
00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:04,480
Speaker 1: This is what I just said. So it's like he

1058
00:57:04,560 --> 00:57:06,320
Speaker 1: basically outprices himself.

1059
00:57:06,440 --> 00:57:07,000
Speaker 3: You can't do that.

1060
00:57:07,080 --> 00:57:09,680
Speaker 1: Because he's like, I'll pay any price for that old

1061
00:57:09,760 --> 00:57:13,680
Speaker 1: pair of Willie Nelson boots or whatever. People are like, no, sir.

1062
00:57:15,400 --> 00:57:18,800
Speaker 1: So all the while, David's wild card reputation remains, and

1063
00:57:18,880 --> 00:57:22,440
Speaker 1: rumors begin to swirl that he's hawking stolen goods at auction.

1064
00:57:23,080 --> 00:57:26,480
Speaker 1: People suspect he's behind the bulk of the Texana artifacts

1065
00:57:26,480 --> 00:57:29,400
Speaker 1: that are going missing from Texas libraries.

1066
00:57:28,920 --> 00:57:32,440
Speaker 2: And he's just he's the one guy just swooping in and.

1067
00:57:33,360 --> 00:57:35,520
Speaker 1: He's like, I got a library card, But you know

1068
00:57:35,520 --> 00:57:38,160
Speaker 1: what I'm gonna do with it? Not looking at micro

1069
00:57:38,280 --> 00:57:43,280
Speaker 1: fiesch motherfuckers. I'm doing something else. Of course, David denies this,

1070
00:57:43,480 --> 00:57:45,920
Speaker 1: but in a kind of wink wink way to people,

1071
00:57:47,160 --> 00:57:49,840
Speaker 1: he titles one of his so they guess. The sellers

1072
00:57:49,880 --> 00:57:52,120
Speaker 1: make catalogs of the stuff that they have that people

1073
00:57:52,120 --> 00:57:55,080
Speaker 1: can buy, and he titles one of his catalogs quote

1074
00:57:55,240 --> 00:58:00,120
Speaker 1: the bookman offers for sale Texas books from a recent robbery.

1075
00:58:00,840 --> 00:58:01,000
Speaker 5: Bro.

1076
00:58:01,960 --> 00:58:05,040
Speaker 1: It's just like he's funny, he's charming. He's divorced, he's married,

1077
00:58:05,120 --> 00:58:05,800
Speaker 1: he's divorced.

1078
00:58:06,400 --> 00:58:07,360
Speaker 3: He's doing it all.

1079
00:58:08,760 --> 00:58:10,600
Speaker 2: He's got to play it cool though, Like.

1080
00:58:11,080 --> 00:58:14,040
Speaker 1: No, because on the next catalog he puts a mocked

1081
00:58:14,120 --> 00:58:16,080
Speaker 1: up wanted poster with his own face on it.

1082
00:58:17,520 --> 00:58:19,840
Speaker 3: He's like, don't do the hard work for the authorities,

1083
00:58:20,080 --> 00:58:22,440
Speaker 3: you know what I mean, like make them find you.

1084
00:58:22,680 --> 00:58:24,919
Speaker 1: I think he's like so rich, he's just bored where

1085
00:58:24,920 --> 00:58:28,760
Speaker 1: He's just like come on everybody. So around the same time,

1086
00:58:29,240 --> 00:58:33,520
Speaker 1: he's honing his forgery skills. There's really no one more

1087
00:58:33,560 --> 00:58:36,560
Speaker 1: suited to create fakes than him, because he deals with

1088
00:58:36,640 --> 00:58:39,360
Speaker 1: old artifacts for a living. He has all this raw

1089
00:58:39,400 --> 00:58:42,280
Speaker 1: material and the money to buy it and to like

1090
00:58:42,440 --> 00:58:45,120
Speaker 1: cut it up. So he like cuts end papers out

1091
00:58:45,120 --> 00:58:47,479
Speaker 1: of his own antique books to use as the base

1092
00:58:47,600 --> 00:58:51,120
Speaker 1: for his dupes. He perfects his calligraphy. He's so rich

1093
00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:55,200
Speaker 1: he can perfect his calligraphy. He even hires a trusted

1094
00:58:55,240 --> 00:59:01,120
Speaker 1: lithographer lithographer lithographer to enlarge negatives of genuine documents so

1095
00:59:01,160 --> 00:59:04,600
Speaker 1: he can study every detail, and then he prints versions

1096
00:59:04,640 --> 00:59:09,760
Speaker 1: of him of them himself using ink he makes out

1097
00:59:09,800 --> 00:59:12,040
Speaker 1: of candle smoke and linseed oil.

1098
00:59:12,280 --> 00:59:16,000
Speaker 3: Fucking impressive as shit. But do something good, right, you know.

1099
00:59:16,360 --> 00:59:20,080
Speaker 1: Take those skills, Richie rich and do something good with them. Yeah, no,

1100
00:59:20,200 --> 00:59:23,640
Speaker 1: he says no. But in May in nineteen seventy one,

1101
00:59:23,760 --> 00:59:26,800
Speaker 1: on his way to a show around three thousand, oh

1102
00:59:26,840 --> 00:59:29,000
Speaker 1: no sorry, On his way to show around three thousand

1103
00:59:29,040 --> 00:59:32,600
Speaker 1: documents to a potential buyer in Waco, David gets stopped

1104
00:59:32,600 --> 00:59:36,200
Speaker 1: by a Texas ranger and a Texas State archivist.

1105
00:59:36,720 --> 00:59:39,880
Speaker 3: What yeah, they have a they can woo, they can

1106
00:59:39,880 --> 00:59:41,160
Speaker 3: pull you over down here.

1107
00:59:42,040 --> 00:59:45,920
Speaker 1: There's a set up a program where archivists drive around

1108
00:59:45,920 --> 00:59:51,080
Speaker 1: with Texas rangers. Uh huh. Yeah, they've been doing it for.

1109
00:59:51,040 --> 00:59:53,480
Speaker 3: Years that I'm baffled.

1110
00:59:53,600 --> 00:59:56,960
Speaker 1: Uh huh. So these guys go after him. They accuse

1111
00:59:57,000 --> 01:00:00,200
Speaker 1: him of stealing the documents he has from the state archives.

1112
01:00:00,240 --> 01:00:02,400
Speaker 1: The archivist is like, hey, I saw you leave mine.

1113
01:00:02,760 --> 01:00:05,320
Speaker 1: We saw him leave the back room, and he went

1114
01:00:05,360 --> 01:00:07,560
Speaker 1: and got himself a ranger and then they pulled him over.

1115
01:00:08,680 --> 01:00:11,320
Speaker 1: When they look through the documents that he's carrying, they

1116
01:00:11,360 --> 01:00:14,080
Speaker 1: find a few that are that they believe are stolen,

1117
01:00:14,480 --> 01:00:18,120
Speaker 1: and without any proof, they confiscate the documents. So word

1118
01:00:18,160 --> 01:00:21,840
Speaker 1: gets around about this, and David's already kind of rocky reputation.

1119
01:00:23,040 --> 01:00:29,080
Speaker 1: Driving into the cigarette store takes everybody Jesus. He's like,

1120
01:00:29,160 --> 01:00:33,560
Speaker 1: my wife made me do it. As David's mental as

1121
01:00:33,680 --> 01:00:36,680
Speaker 1: David's mental health. So he falls into a deep depression

1122
01:00:37,000 --> 01:00:41,680
Speaker 1: and he's already what Maren quoted quoted as he's already

1123
01:00:41,720 --> 01:00:42,840
Speaker 1: a lover of drugs?

1124
01:00:44,160 --> 01:00:46,440
Speaker 3: Is that what they call it? Yeah, lover of I

1125
01:00:46,440 --> 01:00:47,360
Speaker 3: have a different name for that.

1126
01:00:47,600 --> 01:00:50,960
Speaker 1: A lover of drugs? Is that what you called yourself

1127
01:00:50,960 --> 01:00:52,120
Speaker 1: when you were doing the drugs.

1128
01:00:52,480 --> 01:00:54,840
Speaker 2: I'm not an addict. I'm a lover of drugs.

1129
01:00:56,560 --> 01:01:01,920
Speaker 1: It's more of a passion of mine, you know. So

1130
01:01:02,320 --> 01:01:05,160
Speaker 1: when he's in this very low state, he decides the

1131
01:01:05,240 --> 01:01:07,240
Speaker 1: thing that I've told all of you time and again

1132
01:01:08,240 --> 01:01:12,080
Speaker 1: not to do. He decides to try heroin. What the

1133
01:01:12,120 --> 01:01:16,520
Speaker 1: fuck true? It's true, never heroin, whatever else you want.

1134
01:01:16,760 --> 01:01:18,800
Speaker 1: I don't care. Fall into a k hole over and

1135
01:01:18,840 --> 01:01:24,440
Speaker 1: over again. We don't do heroin. We never do Heroin. Okay,

1136
01:01:24,560 --> 01:01:26,840
Speaker 1: that's the rule. Thank you and thanks for the support.

1137
01:01:27,400 --> 01:01:32,320
Speaker 1: Thanks for the Heroin support. There's one angry Heroin dealer

1138
01:01:32,360 --> 01:01:37,840
Speaker 1: in the back, like, thanks a lot. What about my business?

1139
01:01:38,920 --> 01:01:41,360
Speaker 1: I'll find my place and then you'll be sorry. So

1140
01:01:41,440 --> 01:01:44,160
Speaker 1: in the summer of nineteen seventy one, two men are

1141
01:01:44,240 --> 01:01:47,480
Speaker 1: arrested in connection with the library and museum thefts that

1142
01:01:47,720 --> 01:01:51,080
Speaker 1: have been targeting Texana goods, and they waste no time

1143
01:01:51,120 --> 01:01:54,400
Speaker 1: in implicating David is the mastermind. He really does look

1144
01:01:54,440 --> 01:01:58,960
Speaker 1: like a mastermind. Totally his mastermind eyebrows. This pretty much

1145
01:01:59,000 --> 01:02:03,000
Speaker 1: confirms those rumors that he was selling stolen items at auctions.

1146
01:02:03,360 --> 01:02:06,560
Speaker 1: But more than a year passes, he isn't charged with anything.

1147
01:02:06,800 --> 01:02:11,800
Speaker 1: It's weird that happens to rich people all the time. Anyways. Meanwhile,

1148
01:02:11,960 --> 01:02:15,320
Speaker 1: his life is unraveling. He is entirely caught up in

1149
01:02:15,360 --> 01:02:18,680
Speaker 1: this horrible addiction. He is doubling down on his forgeries.

1150
01:02:19,080 --> 01:02:21,360
Speaker 1: On the few occasions where he manages to show up

1151
01:02:21,360 --> 01:02:25,200
Speaker 1: for business meetings, he is basically very overt about the

1152
01:02:25,240 --> 01:02:28,840
Speaker 1: fact that he makes fakes. He loses all credibility, his

1153
01:02:28,880 --> 01:02:32,400
Speaker 1: customers abandoned him, and he ultimately sells the entirety of

1154
01:02:32,440 --> 01:02:36,360
Speaker 1: his rare Texana goods to none other than his enemy,

1155
01:02:36,440 --> 01:02:40,600
Speaker 1: John Jenkins, sorry enemy is John Jenkins and William Simpson.

1156
01:02:41,000 --> 01:02:45,680
Speaker 1: And then he unceremoniously retires. And then the year after,

1157
01:02:45,760 --> 01:02:48,120
Speaker 1: in June of nineteen seventy two, he gets arrested on

1158
01:02:48,200 --> 01:02:52,720
Speaker 1: drug charges. He's not in custody for long, though, because

1159
01:02:52,720 --> 01:02:56,840
Speaker 1: he is rich. So oh but no, that actually isn't true.

1160
01:02:57,000 --> 01:02:59,360
Speaker 1: It's because he jumps bond and he lives on the

1161
01:02:59,440 --> 01:03:01,040
Speaker 1: lamb for seven fucking years.

1162
01:03:01,040 --> 01:03:02,320
Speaker 3: Seven years or.

1163
01:03:02,360 --> 01:03:07,400
Speaker 1: Seven years damn. Yeah, maybe that was on the lamb picture.

1164
01:03:07,480 --> 01:03:10,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, I feel like you could do that back.

1165
01:03:09,800 --> 01:03:12,640
Speaker 2: Then a lot easier, Yeah, in these days than today.

1166
01:03:12,720 --> 01:03:13,400
Speaker 2: Let's try it.

1167
01:03:13,640 --> 01:03:19,080
Speaker 1: Let's go here, we go goodbye. Eventually, exhausted by life

1168
01:03:19,080 --> 01:03:21,760
Speaker 1: on the run, he turns himself into police. He just

1169
01:03:21,880 --> 01:03:23,800
Speaker 1: he hadn't been married in so long that he was like,

1170
01:03:23,880 --> 01:03:29,560
Speaker 1: come on, you got to get that hit in Texas

1171
01:03:29,560 --> 01:03:31,760
Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty. He serves a year in prison, he

1172
01:03:31,800 --> 01:03:34,040
Speaker 1: gets out, and then he cleans his life up. Okay,

1173
01:03:34,160 --> 01:03:38,240
Speaker 1: that's nice. Yeah, and let's here for cleaning your fucking like.

1174
01:03:38,400 --> 01:03:39,280
Speaker 3: Oh, I mean.

1175
01:03:40,960 --> 01:03:41,720
Speaker 2: It's a good thing.

1176
01:03:41,920 --> 01:03:44,400
Speaker 1: It's tough to do. In nineteen eighty, the same year

1177
01:03:44,520 --> 01:03:46,919
Speaker 1: he turns himself in on those drug charges. That's when

1178
01:03:46,960 --> 01:03:50,840
Speaker 1: Tom Taylor sells his first Texas Declaration of Independence. So

1179
01:03:50,880 --> 01:03:53,960
Speaker 1: that's kind of how that storylines kind of meld together.

1180
01:03:54,040 --> 01:03:58,640
Speaker 1: We now back to that, so Tom begins. So a

1181
01:03:58,640 --> 01:04:02,640
Speaker 1: few years later, Tom begins his deep investigation into the

1182
01:04:02,880 --> 01:04:08,840
Speaker 1: Texana Dupes, and amid his ongoing investigative work, the two men,

1183
01:04:09,280 --> 01:04:14,240
Speaker 1: he and David, finally cross paths. Tom sets up a

1184
01:04:14,280 --> 01:04:17,520
Speaker 1: meeting at David's house and by this point Tom's honearthed

1185
01:04:18,080 --> 01:04:22,160
Speaker 1: thirteen different fake historical Texas documents that have been forged

1186
01:04:22,280 --> 01:04:26,120
Speaker 1: over fifty times since nineteen seventy and they're all traceable

1187
01:04:26,400 --> 01:04:31,600
Speaker 1: to Jenkins, Williams and David and poor Tom and his

1188
01:04:31,640 --> 01:04:34,440
Speaker 1: Hawaiian shirts. Just like I've got a fight for the

1189
01:04:34,600 --> 01:04:40,560
Speaker 1: justice of documents, good documents, not these goddamn dirty documents.

1190
01:04:42,000 --> 01:04:45,120
Speaker 1: This is beyond the Texas Declaration of Independence. For example,

1191
01:04:45,160 --> 01:04:48,360
Speaker 1: Tom digs up a document that David had sold as

1192
01:04:48,400 --> 01:04:52,919
Speaker 1: the authentic announcement of the Founding of Houston, ostensibly from

1193
01:04:52,960 --> 01:04:56,560
Speaker 1: eighteen thirty six, but it uses a typeface that did.

1194
01:04:56,400 --> 01:04:58,440
Speaker 2: Not exist at that time.

1195
01:04:58,880 --> 01:05:05,480
Speaker 1: Sam Sarah I don't fucking think so. But according to Tom,

1196
01:05:05,760 --> 01:05:09,320
Speaker 1: when he confronts David about these fakes, David just seems

1197
01:05:09,560 --> 01:05:13,880
Speaker 1: kind of confused. My biggest pet peeve when you're like, hey,

1198
01:05:13,920 --> 01:05:17,680
Speaker 1: you lied, and the person's like, I'm not sure, you don't.

1199
01:05:17,520 --> 01:05:20,800
Speaker 3: Know, like when you have to yeah, They just pretend

1200
01:05:20,800 --> 01:05:24,400
Speaker 3: that they don't even understand the accusation. It's weird. I

1201
01:05:24,400 --> 01:05:28,760
Speaker 3: don't what are these words mean? You want someone to

1202
01:05:28,800 --> 01:05:30,240
Speaker 3: be like yeah, motherfucker, like yeah.

1203
01:05:30,640 --> 01:05:33,040
Speaker 1: Ione in and then he pulls out the catalog with

1204
01:05:33,080 --> 01:05:38,080
Speaker 1: the want his wanted face. I told you yes, he's

1205
01:05:38,080 --> 01:05:40,280
Speaker 1: so he doesn't admit to any wrongdoing, but at this

1206
01:05:40,320 --> 01:05:43,360
Speaker 1: point Tom doesn't need an admission from him. He can

1207
01:05:43,440 --> 01:05:46,840
Speaker 1: prove these items are fake with irrefutable evidence, and so

1208
01:05:46,920 --> 01:05:50,040
Speaker 1: he goes public with those findings, and then that story

1209
01:05:50,080 --> 01:05:52,600
Speaker 1: gets picked up by a New York Times reporter named

1210
01:05:52,600 --> 01:05:56,080
Speaker 1: Lisa Belkin in nineteen eighty nine. So she writes an

1211
01:05:56,200 --> 01:06:00,640
Speaker 1: article entitled Lone Star Fakes, and it dives into Tom's

1212
01:06:00,680 --> 01:06:04,480
Speaker 1: crusade to weed out forged documents. And it's especially significant

1213
01:06:04,680 --> 01:06:08,480
Speaker 1: because it's the first time ce Dorman David publicly admits

1214
01:06:08,640 --> 01:06:11,800
Speaker 1: to forgery. So in an interview with Belkan, the now

1215
01:06:11,840 --> 01:06:15,320
Speaker 1: fifty one year old David admits he's directly responsible for

1216
01:06:15,400 --> 01:06:18,800
Speaker 1: the two fake declarations that Tom Taylor sold, and he

1217
01:06:18,880 --> 01:06:22,960
Speaker 1: even explains how Tom's one genuine copy served as the

1218
01:06:23,000 --> 01:06:25,600
Speaker 1: template for his later dupes.

1219
01:06:25,880 --> 01:06:29,240
Speaker 3: You think that makes that one copy more even more valuable.

1220
01:06:29,240 --> 01:06:32,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, eventually it does. Oh I just no, no, no,

1221
01:06:32,320 --> 01:06:34,840
Speaker 1: I mean, but in that way, Well, I'll just read

1222
01:06:34,880 --> 01:06:38,760
Speaker 1: it off this fucking page that I'm on forever. This

1223
01:06:38,800 --> 01:06:40,280
Speaker 1: is the kind of thing where you know, you really

1224
01:06:40,280 --> 01:06:42,600
Speaker 1: do wish you had your lines memorized, You're like, and

1225
01:06:42,640 --> 01:06:45,760
Speaker 1: then Tom went down to the library that that's never

1226
01:06:45,800 --> 01:06:52,520
Speaker 1: going to happen. So what he would do is, he explains,

1227
01:06:53,040 --> 01:06:56,480
Speaker 1: he photographed the one genuine, he made a negative, he

1228
01:06:56,560 --> 01:07:00,600
Speaker 1: repaired any visible damage on the magnified copy, created a

1229
01:07:00,720 --> 01:07:04,280
Speaker 1: zinc plate from the negative, He printed fakes. And then

1230
01:07:04,360 --> 01:07:06,720
Speaker 1: the way he made that ink that I was saying before,

1231
01:07:07,080 --> 01:07:10,640
Speaker 1: He collected smoke in a paper bag and mixed the

1232
01:07:10,720 --> 01:07:13,760
Speaker 1: carbon that attached to the bag with various oils like

1233
01:07:13,800 --> 01:07:17,600
Speaker 1: the linseed oil. That and then the blank paper came

1234
01:07:17,640 --> 01:07:19,760
Speaker 1: from his edges from his old books.

1235
01:07:19,840 --> 01:07:22,440
Speaker 3: I mean, that's already ten times smarter. Than I am like,

1236
01:07:22,680 --> 01:07:24,160
Speaker 3: use that for something good?

1237
01:07:24,320 --> 01:07:28,880
Speaker 1: He says no, No, he says, sorry, I have to

1238
01:07:28,880 --> 01:07:30,479
Speaker 1: go get some cigarettes. I'll be right back.

1239
01:07:31,400 --> 01:07:32,200
Speaker 2: And another wife.

1240
01:07:32,280 --> 01:07:36,240
Speaker 1: What's your point yet, that's how he met his fifth.

1241
01:07:36,000 --> 01:07:38,520
Speaker 2: Wife, right. I couldn't do one of those steps. Asked

1242
01:07:38,520 --> 01:07:39,720
Speaker 2: me to do one of these steps. I'm gonna go

1243
01:07:39,800 --> 01:07:40,240
Speaker 2: take a nap.

1244
01:07:40,760 --> 01:07:42,919
Speaker 1: I'd literally be like, sorry, I was looking at my phone.

1245
01:07:42,960 --> 01:07:46,400
Speaker 1: What do you want me to do again? But in

1246
01:07:46,440 --> 01:07:49,960
Speaker 1: this interview, David keeps going. He also fesses up to

1247
01:07:50,040 --> 01:07:54,560
Speaker 1: Belkan about forging dozens of other documents, but he claims

1248
01:07:54,600 --> 01:07:57,800
Speaker 1: he meant to sell them as known fakes, not pass

1249
01:07:57,880 --> 01:08:03,360
Speaker 1: them off as genuine an.

1250
01:08:01,960 --> 01:08:03,520
Speaker 2: I've got to stamp it with fake.

1251
01:08:03,800 --> 01:08:07,200
Speaker 1: Yeah. Uh. The problem with that is that, of course

1252
01:08:07,280 --> 01:08:09,880
Speaker 1: David didn't let the buyers know that they were countershit.

1253
01:08:10,000 --> 01:08:13,560
Speaker 1: So it wasn't like ooops, get that, get that real money,

1254
01:08:13,880 --> 01:08:17,400
Speaker 1: but you have counterfeit in your heart. So two of

1255
01:08:17,400 --> 01:08:21,599
Speaker 1: the biggest customers were Jenkins and Simpsons at Simpson's orry,

1256
01:08:21,840 --> 01:08:25,559
Speaker 1: not the TV show, And of course because he did

1257
01:08:25,560 --> 01:08:28,000
Speaker 1: not like them, it's easy to believe that he targeted

1258
01:08:28,040 --> 01:08:30,599
Speaker 1: them for revenge. That's why he kind of pulled them

1259
01:08:30,600 --> 01:08:33,479
Speaker 1: in and made them believe that he had something on

1260
01:08:33,560 --> 01:08:34,880
Speaker 1: his hands.

1261
01:08:34,320 --> 01:08:37,080
Speaker 3: Revenge, because if you were that smart, bet he could

1262
01:08:37,120 --> 01:08:38,120
Speaker 3: just forge money.

1263
01:08:38,600 --> 01:08:40,160
Speaker 2: I mean right, why not get that?

1264
01:08:40,680 --> 01:08:43,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, get your little tin type plate or whatever the

1265
01:08:43,200 --> 01:08:45,720
Speaker 1: thing I was that, just get something going in your

1266
01:08:45,720 --> 01:08:47,679
Speaker 1: basement to people over.

1267
01:08:47,920 --> 01:08:48,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, got it?

1268
01:08:48,680 --> 01:08:50,560
Speaker 1: Because I think it's like he loves the antiques. And

1269
01:08:50,560 --> 01:08:52,600
Speaker 1: then he wanted to be like the big fish in

1270
01:08:52,640 --> 01:08:55,599
Speaker 1: this world, and the other two were like, sit down, dummy,

1271
01:08:55,760 --> 01:08:58,439
Speaker 1: and then he was like, I'll get you right. Then

1272
01:08:58,479 --> 01:09:03,360
Speaker 1: he's dupe. He's duping them when they think they're duping him.

1273
01:09:02,640 --> 01:09:05,240
Speaker 3: And they act confused about it and kisses Karen off

1274
01:09:05,520 --> 01:09:06,360
Speaker 3: Real Housewives.

1275
01:09:06,439 --> 01:09:07,880
Speaker 1: I mean, I just keep saying it.

1276
01:09:09,280 --> 01:09:10,560
Speaker 3: We're done with that paragraph.

1277
01:09:10,560 --> 01:09:13,800
Speaker 1: In all the years since Tom Taylor's investigation first exposed

1278
01:09:13,800 --> 01:09:18,160
Speaker 1: these Texano forgeries, not one person has been prosecuted for them,

1279
01:09:18,640 --> 01:09:22,200
Speaker 1: because there's just enough plausible deniability and not enough proof

1280
01:09:22,240 --> 01:09:25,519
Speaker 1: of criminal intent to bring charges. So the same year

1281
01:09:25,560 --> 01:09:27,840
Speaker 1: that New York Times article comes out, which is nineteen

1282
01:09:27,880 --> 01:09:31,320
Speaker 1: eighty nine, forty nine year old John Jenkins is found

1283
01:09:31,520 --> 01:09:34,040
Speaker 1: shot in the head near Bastrup.

1284
01:09:34,280 --> 01:09:41,679
Speaker 7: What Yes, someone tried to cheer for Bastrup, while others

1285
01:09:41,720 --> 01:09:45,719
Speaker 7: were upset about a terrible It's very confusing to drag

1286
01:09:45,720 --> 01:09:49,720
Speaker 7: along this is this whole thing is confusing, and we apologize.

1287
01:09:49,720 --> 01:09:54,680
Speaker 1: It always has been. It was officially ruled a suicide,

1288
01:09:55,080 --> 01:09:58,920
Speaker 1: but at the time, Jenkins was being investigated for arson

1289
01:09:59,040 --> 01:10:02,320
Speaker 1: related to an Ensure Burns fraud scheme, and he'd also

1290
01:10:02,479 --> 01:10:06,320
Speaker 1: reportedly racked up around a million dollars in gambling debts.

1291
01:10:07,439 --> 01:10:09,080
Speaker 1: I'm not even going to make you ask, but it

1292
01:10:09,120 --> 01:10:09,920
Speaker 1: was a million in.

1293
01:10:09,880 --> 01:10:13,599
Speaker 3: Nineteen eighty nine, one point seven to two.

1294
01:10:13,840 --> 01:10:18,400
Speaker 1: I don't have it, then yes, by default, then you're right,

1295
01:10:18,680 --> 01:10:19,439
Speaker 1: you finally win.

1296
01:10:19,760 --> 01:10:20,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, she did it.

1297
01:10:21,880 --> 01:10:22,360
Speaker 4: She did it.

1298
01:10:24,439 --> 01:10:26,439
Speaker 3: I love that our research will just give up packway

1299
01:10:26,439 --> 01:10:28,640
Speaker 3: through that can keep putting this in the calculator.

1300
01:10:28,960 --> 01:10:30,760
Speaker 1: If you're not going to say it, I'm not going

1301
01:10:30,800 --> 01:10:34,639
Speaker 1: to put it in. So to this day, some people

1302
01:10:34,680 --> 01:10:38,160
Speaker 1: do believe that John Jenkins was murdered, either because of

1303
01:10:38,160 --> 01:10:41,320
Speaker 1: those debts that he had or because his big personality

1304
01:10:41,680 --> 01:10:45,200
Speaker 1: earned him so many sure. William Simpson, on the other hand,

1305
01:10:45,240 --> 01:10:47,479
Speaker 1: dies in two thousand and one. The details are very

1306
01:10:47,560 --> 01:10:50,960
Speaker 1: fuzzy on his cause of death. He remained very low

1307
01:10:51,040 --> 01:10:54,479
Speaker 1: profile compared to everybody else in the story, and then

1308
01:10:54,640 --> 01:10:57,920
Speaker 1: in twenty thirteen see Dorman. David dies in Houston at

1309
01:10:57,920 --> 01:11:02,160
Speaker 1: the age of seventy five after spent this is kind

1310
01:11:02,160 --> 01:11:05,400
Speaker 1: of an incredible like later life story. He spends the

1311
01:11:05,479 --> 01:11:08,000
Speaker 1: latter part of his life running a business that makes

1312
01:11:08,160 --> 01:11:16,639
Speaker 1: benches shaped like alligators. Wow, yeah, you.

1313
01:11:16,600 --> 01:11:20,519
Speaker 3: Don't have a picture now, fuck, couldn't clear it.

1314
01:11:20,600 --> 01:11:22,439
Speaker 2: You know you probably even want it. I want to know.

1315
01:11:22,520 --> 01:11:24,360
Speaker 1: I want to see what's here, because you know what

1316
01:11:24,520 --> 01:11:28,519
Speaker 1: what's I'll describe mine. Okay, my bench looks like Lyle

1317
01:11:28,560 --> 01:11:33,200
Speaker 1: the crocodile. It's not the same animal. Do not lecture

1318
01:11:33,240 --> 01:11:33,720
Speaker 1: me on that.

1319
01:11:34,720 --> 01:11:37,360
Speaker 3: What yours look like? Oh my god, I don't know.

1320
01:11:37,400 --> 01:11:41,160
Speaker 3: It's not comfortable at all. Whatever, Like you can't take

1321
01:11:41,160 --> 01:11:43,120
Speaker 3: a nap on it, so it's useless to me.

1322
01:11:43,360 --> 01:11:46,960
Speaker 1: A load of the ground. Yeah yeah, spiky, spiky, it's

1323
01:11:47,040 --> 01:11:47,679
Speaker 1: real spiky?

1324
01:11:48,760 --> 01:11:49,280
Speaker 3: Do do do?

1325
01:11:49,439 --> 01:11:52,240
Speaker 1: Why did I take my finger off this fucking page? Meanwhile,

1326
01:11:52,800 --> 01:11:55,920
Speaker 1: Tom Taylor, who is now in his seventies, remains a

1327
01:11:55,960 --> 01:11:59,360
Speaker 1: devoted bookseller and a master printer in Texas, and after

1328
01:11:59,400 --> 01:12:02,400
Speaker 1: his investiga into these fakes, he goes back and he

1329
01:12:02,479 --> 01:12:05,040
Speaker 1: finds the two clients who bought the dupes from him

1330
01:12:05,320 --> 01:12:11,200
Speaker 1: and he reimburses them.

1331
01:12:11,320 --> 01:12:12,080
Speaker 3: Are you right?

1332
01:12:12,479 --> 01:12:15,679
Speaker 1: Not really? Oh my god, that was acting. That was acting,

1333
01:12:15,800 --> 01:12:16,559
Speaker 1: ladies and shumen.

1334
01:12:19,200 --> 01:12:22,320
Speaker 3: Wow, that's very honorable.

1335
01:12:22,439 --> 01:12:23,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's the good guy.

1336
01:12:23,600 --> 01:12:25,720
Speaker 3: What if the guy there, like, I didn't want you

1337
01:12:25,840 --> 01:12:27,880
Speaker 3: to tell me it was fake. It's fine living the

1338
01:12:27,920 --> 01:12:30,439
Speaker 3: rest of my life telling all my guests that this

1339
01:12:30,600 --> 01:12:33,479
Speaker 3: is what real. And I don't want my eleven thousand

1340
01:12:33,479 --> 01:12:36,160
Speaker 3: dollars in nineteen eighties money.

1341
01:12:35,880 --> 01:12:36,479
Speaker 2: Back, right.

1342
01:12:36,800 --> 01:12:38,599
Speaker 1: You know that happened to me right when I got

1343
01:12:38,640 --> 01:12:41,080
Speaker 1: my house, when I moved into my house. Yeah, my

1344
01:12:41,160 --> 01:12:44,839
Speaker 1: cousin is my real estate agent, Pete Castro in Los Angeles.

1345
01:12:45,040 --> 01:12:47,839
Speaker 1: You need if you ever need any help, I did it, guarantee.

1346
01:12:48,280 --> 01:12:48,559
Speaker 3: Fuck.

1347
01:12:49,200 --> 01:12:51,360
Speaker 1: I have a new weird nervous tick where I pinched

1348
01:12:51,360 --> 01:12:55,040
Speaker 1: the end of my nose like that, very weird. Georgia

1349
01:12:55,040 --> 01:12:56,519
Speaker 1: pointed it out to me the other day, and I

1350
01:12:56,600 --> 01:12:59,839
Speaker 1: was like, Wow, talk about not wanting to know something

1351
01:13:00,640 --> 01:13:05,120
Speaker 1: like I'm doing. What Hey, you're just.

1352
01:13:05,000 --> 01:13:07,519
Speaker 3: Gonna like because also you're gonna wipe all your makeup

1353
01:13:07,560 --> 01:13:08,599
Speaker 3: off the end of your nose.

1354
01:13:08,640 --> 01:13:09,599
Speaker 2: Only like that's why.

1355
01:13:09,680 --> 01:13:11,280
Speaker 3: Really, what I wanted to warry you about is it's

1356
01:13:11,320 --> 01:13:13,439
Speaker 3: gonna look fucking weird. We just go red nose.

1357
01:13:13,600 --> 01:13:19,559
Speaker 1: I'm gonna look like that Lady Elaine from Mister Rogers Neighborhood. Yeah,

1358
01:13:19,680 --> 01:13:23,040
Speaker 1: that's my goal in life. I was just gonna tell

1359
01:13:23,040 --> 01:13:24,519
Speaker 1: you guys the story. And I may have said this

1360
01:13:24,560 --> 01:13:26,639
Speaker 1: on the podcast, but we do that all the time,

1361
01:13:26,720 --> 01:13:28,920
Speaker 1: so go with it. When I moved in my house,

1362
01:13:29,560 --> 01:13:31,800
Speaker 1: my cousin Pete, they went down they had to get

1363
01:13:31,840 --> 01:13:34,880
Speaker 1: some official records, and they pulled some records and saw

1364
01:13:35,200 --> 01:13:37,720
Speaker 1: that one of the previous owners of the house was

1365
01:13:37,880 --> 01:13:42,000
Speaker 1: Charles Chaplin. And so when I had my house warming party,

1366
01:13:42,040 --> 01:13:45,920
Speaker 1: he gave me a framed like this certificate that said

1367
01:13:45,960 --> 01:13:48,200
Speaker 1: that was a previous owner. So that was on my

1368
01:13:48,240 --> 01:13:50,800
Speaker 1: wall where I'm like, fucking take a look at this

1369
01:13:50,960 --> 01:13:54,160
Speaker 1: Hollywood legend, Like you kind of can understand why people

1370
01:13:54,200 --> 01:13:56,479
Speaker 1: get into this shit. Sure where it's just like, here's

1371
01:13:56,520 --> 01:14:00,519
Speaker 1: the certificate of authentication, and then this was this was

1372
01:14:00,600 --> 01:14:03,720
Speaker 1: right before COVID. Then we go into COVID, and then

1373
01:14:03,800 --> 01:14:06,120
Speaker 1: somewhere near the end of COVID, I finally meet my

1374
01:14:06,160 --> 01:14:09,280
Speaker 1: next door neighbor and I'm talking to him about Hi,

1375
01:14:09,360 --> 01:14:11,760
Speaker 1: how are you in the neighborhood and stuff, then I go, oh,

1376
01:14:11,760 --> 01:14:14,400
Speaker 1: by the way, did you ever meet like the family,

1377
01:14:14,560 --> 01:14:17,840
Speaker 1: the Chaplain family that lived here? And he goes, oho, Chuck, No, no,

1378
01:14:17,880 --> 01:14:23,559
Speaker 1: they're not related. They're not related. Chuck Chaplain, Chuck Chaplin.

1379
01:14:24,320 --> 01:14:25,800
Speaker 1: I just had to go into my house and just

1380
01:14:25,840 --> 01:14:28,280
Speaker 1: like take this little frame thing down and just put

1381
01:14:28,320 --> 01:14:29,120
Speaker 1: it under the thing.

1382
01:14:29,240 --> 01:14:32,320
Speaker 3: Oh, I think you should leave it. Still, it's an

1383
01:14:32,360 --> 01:14:33,639
Speaker 3: even better story now.

1384
01:14:33,680 --> 01:14:36,759
Speaker 1: I fucking brought every person that walked through my front

1385
01:14:36,800 --> 01:14:41,080
Speaker 1: door over to that certificate. It was what is it

1386
01:14:41,120 --> 01:14:43,639
Speaker 1: about that we were just like, I don't know, oh, man,

1387
01:14:43,800 --> 01:14:46,759
Speaker 1: Charlie Chaplin living in the same house.

1388
01:14:49,320 --> 01:14:50,000
Speaker 2: When will learn?

1389
01:14:50,200 --> 01:14:52,320
Speaker 3: You get it? So you get this story and like

1390
01:14:52,360 --> 01:14:54,800
Speaker 3: how it can just this witch you this?

1391
01:14:55,320 --> 01:14:57,639
Speaker 1: I will marry and divorce the story seven times.

1392
01:14:57,680 --> 01:14:58,679
Speaker 3: I love it so much.

1393
01:14:59,280 --> 01:15:02,320
Speaker 2: I will drive my car through this window of the story.

1394
01:15:02,400 --> 01:15:06,839
Speaker 1: We'll smoke a cigarette out of the debris of this story.

1395
01:15:06,880 --> 01:15:12,360
Speaker 1: I love it so much. Ummmm. Tom also publishes a

1396
01:15:12,360 --> 01:15:15,320
Speaker 1: book called text Fake We Should All Buy It, which

1397
01:15:15,360 --> 01:15:17,559
Speaker 1: is said to be the most thorough account of this

1398
01:15:18,000 --> 01:15:19,599
Speaker 1: entire forgery saga.

1399
01:15:19,680 --> 01:15:21,040
Speaker 2: You'd hope so this.

1400
01:15:21,000 --> 01:15:24,280
Speaker 1: Version is not, so please read it if you're interested.

1401
01:15:24,360 --> 01:15:26,759
Speaker 1: It is unclear how Many of c dorm and David's

1402
01:15:26,760 --> 01:15:29,160
Speaker 1: fakes are still out there today, but when they were

1403
01:15:29,200 --> 01:15:31,479
Speaker 1: exposed back in the nineties, it was reported that many

1404
01:15:31,520 --> 01:15:35,920
Speaker 1: institutions didn't take them off their walls and instead put

1405
01:15:35,920 --> 01:15:39,360
Speaker 1: a little label underneath that said something like this is

1406
01:15:39,400 --> 01:15:40,879
Speaker 1: a facsimile, which.

1407
01:15:41,240 --> 01:15:44,439
Speaker 3: I bet at least one person's grandma on this audience

1408
01:15:45,360 --> 01:15:47,400
Speaker 3: had a fake on accent didn't know it.

1409
01:15:47,520 --> 01:15:48,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, at least one.

1410
01:15:48,840 --> 01:15:52,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, honey, look at the Texas Declaration of Independence and

1411
01:15:52,680 --> 01:15:58,160
Speaker 1: please don't touch it. Honey. Uh, maybe that's what I

1412
01:15:58,160 --> 01:16:01,480
Speaker 1: should have done. I leave Charliechapple up. This is a festivity.

1413
01:16:01,600 --> 01:16:03,759
Speaker 2: That's right up, Charlie Chaplin.

1414
01:16:06,439 --> 01:16:09,160
Speaker 1: Just a little tiny sign that says Karen's a big liar.

1415
01:16:10,240 --> 01:16:14,920
Speaker 1: She can't stop. According to PBS's Antiques Roadshow, David's fake

1416
01:16:15,000 --> 01:16:18,720
Speaker 1: Texas Declarations of Independence are so notorious that they can

1417
01:16:18,760 --> 01:16:21,639
Speaker 1: be worth up to one thousand dollars today from buyers.

1418
01:16:22,439 --> 01:16:24,519
Speaker 1: So that's what I meant before, where it's like they

1419
01:16:24,640 --> 01:16:28,640
Speaker 1: got their own little renown kind of what's up with

1420
01:16:28,640 --> 01:16:32,639
Speaker 1: my notes? I don't know, but if you can find

1421
01:16:32,720 --> 01:16:36,480
Speaker 1: yourself a genuine copy of the Texas Declaration of Independence,

1422
01:16:36,880 --> 01:16:40,520
Speaker 1: it could net you as much as one million dollars.

1423
01:16:40,520 --> 01:16:43,759
Speaker 1: And that is the story of Tom Taylor's investigation into

1424
01:16:43,800 --> 01:16:44,879
Speaker 1: Techsana fates.

1425
01:16:45,800 --> 01:16:57,160
Speaker 2: We did it, good job. Do we have home hometown time?

1426
01:16:57,280 --> 01:17:02,320
Speaker 1: I think it's time to do a hometown there's Vince av.

1427
01:17:06,479 --> 01:17:09,040
Speaker 3: Thank you. We got to give it up for this

1428
01:17:09,160 --> 01:17:10,040
Speaker 3: crowd tonight.

1429
01:17:10,720 --> 01:17:17,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, because there was, in fact, my favorite murder themed cocktail.

1430
01:17:18,360 --> 01:17:23,080
Speaker 3: Oh and it was tequila based. Oh and I didn't

1431
01:17:23,080 --> 01:17:24,920
Speaker 3: get any reports of any vomit in the.

1432
01:17:24,840 --> 01:17:25,280
Speaker 4: House to do.

1433
01:17:25,400 --> 01:17:26,719
Speaker 1: Good job of you guys.

1434
01:17:27,280 --> 01:17:28,479
Speaker 2: Guy, that's classy.

1435
01:17:29,600 --> 01:17:32,080
Speaker 1: Not the case. You know, it does lead a vomit,

1436
01:17:32,120 --> 01:17:36,400
Speaker 1: but Austin can drink. This is ours our route, So

1437
01:17:36,560 --> 01:17:40,600
Speaker 1: I'm going to be right here, lucidity of whoever.

1438
01:17:40,320 --> 01:17:42,479
Speaker 3: You Thanks Vince.

1439
01:17:42,680 --> 01:17:43,920
Speaker 2: Oh and we have a present.

1440
01:17:44,720 --> 01:17:49,720
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, these were pitched to us by Merch and

1441
01:17:49,760 --> 01:17:50,439
Speaker 3: we love them.

1442
01:17:50,760 --> 01:17:52,799
Speaker 1: Nicole and Merch. Did you see her at the merch table?

1443
01:17:53,200 --> 01:17:55,880
Speaker 2: Oh, it's her first time in Texas? Did you know that?

1444
01:17:56,120 --> 01:17:57,360
Speaker 1: Are you serious? Say?

1445
01:17:57,479 --> 01:18:00,800
Speaker 2: Give her a big old Texas hello when you see her.

1446
01:18:01,800 --> 01:18:04,639
Speaker 3: We have stress stress dogs.

1447
01:18:06,320 --> 01:18:07,519
Speaker 1: They really work.

1448
01:18:07,800 --> 01:18:09,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's say my favorite murder on them.

1449
01:18:09,640 --> 01:18:12,840
Speaker 1: Yeah. Okay, so we talked really quickly. We know you

1450
01:18:12,920 --> 01:18:14,960
Speaker 1: know this, but we actually forgot the first couple of

1451
01:18:14,960 --> 01:18:17,160
Speaker 1: shows we did, so we'll just run it down where

1452
01:18:17,240 --> 01:18:19,320
Speaker 1: right now, George is gonna randomly pick someone from the

1453
01:18:19,360 --> 01:18:23,040
Speaker 1: audience to tell their hometown story. And a hometown story

1454
01:18:23,120 --> 01:18:27,880
Speaker 1: drag along is the basically either a crime that happened

1455
01:18:27,880 --> 01:18:31,080
Speaker 1: in your town that got you into true crime, or

1456
01:18:31,120 --> 01:18:33,080
Speaker 1: that you just would like to tell everybody that everybody

1457
01:18:33,160 --> 01:18:35,760
Speaker 1: might like to know. There's a couple rules. One of

1458
01:18:35,800 --> 01:18:39,800
Speaker 1: them is it should be a Texas story, hopefully an

1459
01:18:39,800 --> 01:18:42,840
Speaker 1: Austin story. Whatever you can do, but please don't do

1460
01:18:42,920 --> 01:18:45,759
Speaker 1: what poor poor Katie did the other night and say

1461
01:18:46,000 --> 01:18:49,040
Speaker 1: I'm from Broward, Florida, and yet the entire fucking place

1462
01:18:49,080 --> 01:18:52,040
Speaker 1: bowed her and she walked off stage. It was yeap,

1463
01:18:52,439 --> 01:18:58,280
Speaker 1: very painful, very hilarious. She was a great sport. We

1464
01:18:58,320 --> 01:19:00,120
Speaker 1: got to talk to her about it later because I

1465
01:19:00,160 --> 01:19:02,519
Speaker 1: thought she thought she was just supposed to come up

1466
01:19:02,560 --> 01:19:06,200
Speaker 1: and proclaim her hometown and leave, which I loved. But

1467
01:19:06,320 --> 01:19:08,680
Speaker 1: she was like, no, I had a story. I just

1468
01:19:08,720 --> 01:19:12,679
Speaker 1: got nervous and left. And we're like, oh no, baby,

1469
01:19:13,040 --> 01:19:16,920
Speaker 1: at least now we talked about you, okay, so try

1470
01:19:16,920 --> 01:19:19,320
Speaker 1: to make it. You should be local that's what people like.

1471
01:19:19,640 --> 01:19:22,080
Speaker 1: Don't be so drunk that you can't tell your own story.

1472
01:19:23,120 --> 01:19:25,400
Speaker 1: Don't read off paper. Nobody wants that. It just should

1473
01:19:25,439 --> 01:19:26,360
Speaker 1: be casual.

1474
01:19:26,040 --> 01:19:28,680
Speaker 3: And fun beginning, middle, end, Yeah, yeah, yeah, tell it

1475
01:19:28,720 --> 01:19:29,400
Speaker 3: like a good story.

1476
01:19:29,400 --> 01:19:31,000
Speaker 1: You know how to tell a good story. Texas.

1477
01:19:31,040 --> 01:19:32,000
Speaker 2: You guys are theater people.

1478
01:19:32,200 --> 01:19:34,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, so does anybody have a hometown?

1479
01:19:34,200 --> 01:19:34,880
Speaker 2: Is anyone of them?

1480
01:19:34,880 --> 01:19:35,880
Speaker 1: Do you think would be good?

1481
01:19:37,280 --> 01:19:38,040
Speaker 3: Do you know her?

1482
01:19:39,080 --> 01:19:40,120
Speaker 2: Or you're just pointing at her?

1483
01:19:40,840 --> 01:19:41,200
Speaker 3: You know her?

1484
01:19:41,240 --> 01:19:42,080
Speaker 2: Okay, come on up?

1485
01:19:43,840 --> 01:19:47,559
Speaker 1: Do you do you know her? Like ause?

1486
01:19:47,560 --> 01:19:50,240
Speaker 3: A lot of times people will point at something like

1487
01:19:50,360 --> 01:19:52,800
Speaker 3: the person next to them raises their hand.

1488
01:19:53,040 --> 01:19:54,759
Speaker 2: What's wrong? They're right in the middle.

1489
01:19:54,560 --> 01:19:55,720
Speaker 3: Of the well. No.

1490
01:19:55,800 --> 01:19:57,880
Speaker 1: I just was like, oh, this is very unsafe in

1491
01:19:57,960 --> 01:19:59,960
Speaker 1: terms of fire. You have to go all the way down.

1492
01:20:00,040 --> 01:20:00,439
Speaker 3: I'm like that.

1493
01:20:01,000 --> 01:20:04,400
Speaker 1: I don't like that. I'll talk to the theater later.

1494
01:20:05,000 --> 01:20:08,840
Speaker 1: She had to slide all the way down. Thanks Ben.

1495
01:20:10,280 --> 01:20:16,760
Speaker 4: Hi Laura, my name is Laura.

1496
01:20:16,640 --> 01:20:21,519
Speaker 3: Laura if my this is Laura, Hi, Where are you from?

1497
01:20:21,560 --> 01:20:21,880
Speaker 2: Laura?

1498
01:20:22,520 --> 01:20:27,559
Speaker 6: I have waited nine years to tell you that I

1499
01:20:27,600 --> 01:20:31,200
Speaker 6: helped the Texas Rangers take down the polygamous sex cults

1500
01:20:31,760 --> 01:20:37,559
Speaker 6: at the White Sea Range in Aldorado, Texas.

1501
01:20:37,600 --> 01:20:45,200
Speaker 1: Holy shit, and then she walks off stage. Yes, oh

1502
01:20:45,280 --> 01:20:47,280
Speaker 1: my god, what do you do for a living?

1503
01:20:47,840 --> 01:20:49,000
Speaker 4: Oh, I'm in publishing.

1504
01:20:49,640 --> 01:20:53,200
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, okay, okay.

1505
01:20:52,880 --> 01:20:53,040
Speaker 7: So.

1506
01:20:54,640 --> 01:20:56,479
Speaker 4: I actually practiced just in case.

1507
01:20:56,280 --> 01:20:56,800
Speaker 3: I'm on the road.

1508
01:20:56,800 --> 01:20:58,559
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, we won't interrupt you anymore.

1509
01:20:58,680 --> 01:20:59,880
Speaker 3: So media a couple of times.

1510
01:21:00,680 --> 01:21:03,519
Speaker 6: So I grew up profoundly Mormon, but I got better.

1511
01:21:07,560 --> 01:21:10,719
Speaker 6: My great great great grandfather was one of the first

1512
01:21:11,080 --> 01:21:15,040
Speaker 6: converts and was called polygamy when he came to Salt

1513
01:21:15,120 --> 01:21:18,360
Speaker 6: Lake City, and a lot of my family is still polygamist.

1514
01:21:18,400 --> 01:21:21,760
Speaker 4: So I know these people. You did a.

1515
01:21:21,760 --> 01:21:27,040
Speaker 6: Story episode episode three point forty.

1516
01:21:27,560 --> 01:21:30,880
Speaker 4: You did arv a le baron. I used to work

1517
01:21:30,920 --> 01:21:34,519
Speaker 4: with his daughter. She escaped and she grew up chained

1518
01:21:34,520 --> 01:21:35,559
Speaker 4: around the neck in a goat.

1519
01:21:36,360 --> 01:21:38,000
Speaker 3: They're not good people, Nokay.

1520
01:21:38,200 --> 01:21:40,719
Speaker 6: So when I was in my twenties, I was living

1521
01:21:40,720 --> 01:21:45,120
Speaker 6: in Utah. I come back to Texas, I promise I'm here.

1522
01:21:45,840 --> 01:21:50,960
Speaker 6: But I was married and my husband got a job

1523
01:21:51,160 --> 01:21:56,760
Speaker 6: working with Meryl Jessop, who is Warren Jeff's right hand man,

1524
01:21:57,960 --> 01:22:01,680
Speaker 6: and we got divorced shortly after a divorce for very

1525
01:22:01,720 --> 01:22:02,280
Speaker 6: good reasons.

1526
01:22:02,320 --> 01:22:05,559
Speaker 1: Good job, Thank you, I'm care.

1527
01:22:05,800 --> 01:22:09,000
Speaker 6: And he skidaddled and I couldn't get child support.

1528
01:22:09,080 --> 01:22:11,080
Speaker 4: So I came back to Texas. I'm doing it.

1529
01:22:11,640 --> 01:22:14,920
Speaker 6: I learned how to This is in the nineties, so

1530
01:22:15,000 --> 01:22:17,360
Speaker 6: there's no like real proper Internet.

1531
01:22:18,040 --> 01:22:19,960
Speaker 4: But I find a chat room that.

1532
01:22:20,080 --> 01:22:24,320
Speaker 6: All of those guys were talking about stuff, and I

1533
01:22:24,400 --> 01:22:28,320
Speaker 6: was hoping to find my ex and I just started

1534
01:22:28,360 --> 01:22:32,920
Speaker 6: collecting all of the data, but I didn't know what

1535
01:22:33,000 --> 01:22:35,360
Speaker 6: to do with it, so I'm just hanging on to it.

1536
01:22:36,040 --> 01:22:38,519
Speaker 4: Then, in the early two thousands, of show called Big.

1537
01:22:38,360 --> 01:22:42,400
Speaker 6: Love Starts Yeah, and I started to write reviews of

1538
01:22:42,439 --> 01:22:44,120
Speaker 6: it on live journal.

1539
01:22:45,520 --> 01:22:46,360
Speaker 2: I'll take that one.

1540
01:22:46,439 --> 01:22:50,160
Speaker 6: I'll play on live journal where I'm saying, this is

1541
01:22:50,200 --> 01:22:52,479
Speaker 6: who this is really about? Oh my gosh, and these

1542
01:22:52,479 --> 01:22:54,719
Speaker 6: are the real people and this is the real story.

1543
01:22:55,040 --> 01:22:57,920
Speaker 6: And I had this person that was constantly like asking

1544
01:22:57,920 --> 01:22:59,920
Speaker 6: me questions. It turns out that that was a person

1545
01:23:00,040 --> 01:23:03,600
Speaker 6: who worked for the Del Rio Texas Rangers.

1546
01:23:04,080 --> 01:23:05,479
Speaker 4: And I said, hey.

1547
01:23:05,400 --> 01:23:07,080
Speaker 2: I user name like XX.

1548
01:23:07,520 --> 01:23:09,080
Speaker 4: Well, I'll tell you about the VP.

1549
01:23:10,600 --> 01:23:15,040
Speaker 6: But long story short, I said, hey, do you want

1550
01:23:15,040 --> 01:23:15,639
Speaker 6: this information?

1551
01:23:15,760 --> 01:23:17,000
Speaker 4: They said, absolutely, we do.

1552
01:23:17,840 --> 01:23:21,120
Speaker 6: Meanwhile, one of the things that I had tracked and

1553
01:23:21,360 --> 01:23:24,759
Speaker 6: kept contact of, somebody had asked on a chat board,

1554
01:23:25,800 --> 01:23:30,000
Speaker 6: does anybody have a blueprint for a potato burning shed

1555
01:23:30,320 --> 01:23:33,320
Speaker 6: that gets hot enough to destroy DNA evidence?

1556
01:23:35,200 --> 01:23:38,240
Speaker 3: On a chat room and a chat this is the nineties.

1557
01:23:38,280 --> 01:23:40,240
Speaker 1: People were that didn't know, And then I said.

1558
01:23:40,960 --> 01:23:50,400
Speaker 6: Yeah, right, so that was code. Potato was code. So

1559
01:23:50,479 --> 01:23:52,479
Speaker 6: they found they ended up finding things. But that's the

1560
01:23:52,520 --> 01:23:53,320
Speaker 6: next story.

1561
01:23:53,600 --> 01:23:55,840
Speaker 4: Then they it's the same thing.

1562
01:23:55,920 --> 01:23:59,559
Speaker 6: It's the same thing to so they I got another

1563
01:23:59,600 --> 01:24:03,280
Speaker 6: message from the person at the Texas Rangers when they

1564
01:24:03,320 --> 01:24:05,559
Speaker 6: were going in. They had tanks that were lined up

1565
01:24:05,600 --> 01:24:08,760
Speaker 6: outside of this place and in Eldedo, which is just

1566
01:24:08,760 --> 01:24:13,320
Speaker 6: by Midland. It's south of Story and asked me if

1567
01:24:13,360 --> 01:24:15,880
Speaker 6: I'd ever been inside the temple and do I do

1568
01:24:15,920 --> 01:24:17,479
Speaker 6: I know the floor plane that I said, No, I didn't,

1569
01:24:17,520 --> 01:24:20,800
Speaker 6: but I do know that Mormon temples always have a

1570
01:24:20,840 --> 01:24:22,200
Speaker 6: special room at the very.

1571
01:24:22,040 --> 01:24:24,599
Speaker 4: Top on the east most side, called the Celestial Room.

1572
01:24:25,000 --> 01:24:27,559
Speaker 6: But most importantly there's going to be an altar, so

1573
01:24:27,600 --> 01:24:29,240
Speaker 6: you know that that's the room, and there is a

1574
01:24:29,360 --> 01:24:32,800
Speaker 6: hidden panel on a wall because there's somebody that sits

1575
01:24:32,800 --> 01:24:35,439
Speaker 6: in it and records everything because Mormon's track and record

1576
01:24:35,640 --> 01:24:36,320
Speaker 6: all of the data.

1577
01:24:36,360 --> 01:24:38,600
Speaker 1: Oh, can I ask a question? Yes, you can't was

1578
01:24:38,640 --> 01:24:40,839
Speaker 1: this a phone call or like this was still typing.

1579
01:24:40,880 --> 01:24:43,639
Speaker 4: We're live, We're like live deal, live.

1580
01:24:43,520 --> 01:24:46,400
Speaker 1: Journaling, and is your heart racing? Are you just like

1581
01:24:46,520 --> 01:24:48,639
Speaker 1: dry mouth and going yeah, I'm.

1582
01:24:48,479 --> 01:24:51,519
Speaker 4: Like finally all of this geekery of the recording shit

1583
01:24:51,680 --> 01:24:55,519
Speaker 4: is working. So I'm excited. So they ended up they

1584
01:24:55,840 --> 01:25:00,679
Speaker 4: didn't find the altar. There was a bed. They're really

1585
01:25:00,720 --> 01:25:01,280
Speaker 4: bad people.

1586
01:25:01,840 --> 01:25:04,280
Speaker 6: And they did find the panel and there was a

1587
01:25:04,280 --> 01:25:08,320
Speaker 6: guy in there trying to destroy the evidence off the computers.

1588
01:25:08,360 --> 01:25:12,439
Speaker 6: The particular ranger, his nickname was Marathon Man. Yes, and

1589
01:25:12,479 --> 01:25:16,559
Speaker 6: he was also the canine guy, so he was just like, huh, go.

1590
01:25:16,439 --> 01:25:19,240
Speaker 4: For it and drop the leash. So they got that guy.

1591
01:25:19,280 --> 01:25:27,800
Speaker 4: So multiple people are multiple life sentences these guys. I

1592
01:25:27,840 --> 01:25:28,200
Speaker 4: will say.

1593
01:25:28,200 --> 01:25:30,080
Speaker 6: A month after all of this happened, I got an

1594
01:25:30,160 --> 01:25:31,480
Speaker 6: email from.

1595
01:25:31,200 --> 01:25:35,240
Speaker 4: That dispatch with a list of all.

1596
01:25:35,080 --> 01:25:38,880
Speaker 6: Known aliases every time a license had been run, the

1597
01:25:38,920 --> 01:25:42,800
Speaker 6: license plate had gone through anything for my act, I

1598
01:25:43,000 --> 01:25:45,040
Speaker 6: got my child support yea.

1599
01:25:48,640 --> 01:25:57,120
Speaker 1: With interest, my.

1600
01:25:55,479 --> 01:26:00,320
Speaker 4: Chillsredible, thank you.

1601
01:26:01,680 --> 01:26:11,000
Speaker 1: And for all that work you get a pot dog. Amazing, Wow, Laura,

1602
01:26:11,680 --> 01:26:17,719
Speaker 1: let's give or whatever.

1603
01:26:18,160 --> 01:26:18,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, be careful.

1604
01:26:18,960 --> 01:26:20,920
Speaker 1: We get together as a group and make sure she

1605
01:26:21,040 --> 01:26:28,040
Speaker 1: does save Laura. Oh my god, wow, perfection, amazing.

1606
01:26:30,280 --> 01:26:30,720
Speaker 3: That was it.

1607
01:26:30,960 --> 01:26:33,639
Speaker 1: That was it, and then shut it down. There's nothing

1608
01:26:33,640 --> 01:26:34,240
Speaker 1: else to do.

1609
01:26:34,160 --> 01:26:39,400
Speaker 3: After this except eat barbecue. Oh yeah, and marry seven women.

1610
01:26:40,360 --> 01:26:42,400
Speaker 3: Oh wait no, she says, no, don't do that.

1611
01:26:42,439 --> 01:26:44,640
Speaker 1: No, no, don't do that. The lesson we learned just

1612
01:26:44,640 --> 01:26:49,439
Speaker 1: don't do that. Thank you, Thank you so much, Autin.

1613
01:26:49,520 --> 01:26:51,240
Speaker 1: This has been unbelievable.

1614
01:26:53,880 --> 01:26:56,000
Speaker 3: I can't believe her back on the road, and you

1615
01:26:56,040 --> 01:26:59,200
Speaker 3: guys have been so supportive and incredible and fun and

1616
01:26:59,240 --> 01:27:00,720
Speaker 3: we really have appreciate it.

1617
01:27:00,840 --> 01:27:02,840
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for being with us for all

1618
01:27:02,880 --> 01:27:06,320
Speaker 1: these crazy fucking years with this stupid podcast.

1619
01:27:06,640 --> 01:27:07,800
Speaker 3: We love you so much.

1620
01:27:08,000 --> 01:27:09,560
Speaker 1: To stay sexy.

1621
01:27:12,840 --> 01:27:16,759
Speaker 2: Thank you, Elvis.

1622
01:27:16,800 --> 01:27:17,599
Speaker 3: Do you want to cookie?

1623
01:27:25,400 --> 01:27:27,080
Speaker 8: This has been an exactly right production.

1624
01:27:27,200 --> 01:27:29,880
Speaker 2: Our senior producers are Alejandra Keck and Molly Smith.

1625
01:27:30,000 --> 01:27:32,000
Speaker 8: Our editor is Aristotle os Veto.

1626
01:27:32,120 --> 01:27:34,280
Speaker 3: This episode was mixed by Leona Squalacci.

1627
01:27:34,320 --> 01:27:37,160
Speaker 8: Our researchers are Maaron McGlashan and Ali Elkin.

1628
01:27:37,280 --> 01:27:40,320
Speaker 3: Email your homecounts to My Favorite Murder at gmail dot com.

1629
01:27:40,320 --> 01:27:42,800
Speaker 8: Follow the show on Instagram at My Favorite Murder.

1630
01:27:42,840 --> 01:27:45,559
Speaker 3: Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple

1631
01:27:45,600 --> 01:27:48,320
Speaker 3: Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

1632
01:27:47,720 --> 01:27:50,240
Speaker 8: And now you can watch us on Exactly Wright's YouTube page.

1633
01:27:50,320 --> 01:27:52,520
Speaker 8: While you're there, please like and subscribe.

1634
01:27:52,800 --> 01:27:53,320
Speaker 3: Goodbyebye,