1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of I 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:13,360 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, 3 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:15,920 Speaker 1: and there's Shock and Dave c is here with us 4 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 1: and this is stuff you should know. That's right. Before 5 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 1: we get started, though, we want to quickly plug our 6 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 1: friends at co ED because we're trying to get the 7 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 1: stuff you should know Army and their donation pool up 8 00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 1: to one million dollars. 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And it's really easy to do 18 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 1: and you can contribute as little or as much as 19 00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 1: you want and whatever amount you contribute, you have our thanks. 20 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:12,520 Speaker 1: That's right, and now on with a spooky show. That's right. 21 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:16,600 Speaker 1: So what what a dishes this Chuck the Spooky Phantom 22 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 1: Edian that's what Dave thought. But now and you can 23 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:25,040 Speaker 1: understand how you would get that impression from the title, 24 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:31,240 Speaker 1: But the phantom of Hyle Braun is it Hyle You 25 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 1: do the second syllable okay for an e I okay, 26 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 1: so hile Braun sorry double end at the end, and 27 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:44,200 Speaker 1: the phantom of heil Braun would prove to be essentially 28 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:49,520 Speaker 1: what amounts to a criminal mastermind as far as we're concerned, Um, 29 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 1: for being able to evade the police for so long 30 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 1: despite being so sought after. I mean like they made 31 00:01:56,200 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 1: international news. Um, this case. It it was that vexan. 32 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:06,240 Speaker 1: So we love cold cases, we love true crime cases, 33 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 1: and this one is like really great, Yes, so big 34 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:12,399 Speaker 1: thanks to Olivia for helping us out with this one. 35 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 1: Uh and she very stuteley starts with a brief overview 36 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:20,240 Speaker 1: of DNA forensics, which we covered a lot of times, 37 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 1: but um, just as a reminder, this started out DNA 38 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 1: forensics and collection and using it for criminal cases in 39 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:32,359 Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties in the UK. UH. Notably, I think 40 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:35,239 Speaker 1: the first case was the exoneration of a seventeen year 41 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:39,360 Speaker 1: old UH suspect in a rape and murder case of 42 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:43,080 Speaker 1: two girls. UM. Back then before they had this is 43 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:46,840 Speaker 1: like pre DNA database. UM. Their idea, which you know 44 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:49,400 Speaker 1: worked pretty well in this case, was to basically do 45 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:53,400 Speaker 1: a big genetic sweep and ask for five thousand local 46 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 1: men to give up DNA samples of blood or saliva. Uh. 47 00:02:57,240 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 1: And there was a local baker there named Colin Pitchfork 48 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 1: told his friend Lu said like, hey, mate, would you 49 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 1: mind donating your blood for me and his friend. I 50 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:08,079 Speaker 1: guess the word got around like hey, that's a weird 51 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:11,240 Speaker 1: thing to do. Uh. Someone overhears this in a pub 52 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, Colin Pitchfork is in fact 53 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 1: arrested and another gentleman is exonerated. Yeah, through the use 54 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 1: of DNA. And it was the guy who actually invented 55 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 1: using DNA for forensics, Alec J. Jeffries, who became knighted, 56 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 1: and he discovered it by accident. He was trying to 57 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 1: find how um heritable diseases passed two families and realized like, 58 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 1: oh wait, I can actually identify every single participant in 59 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 1: this study because of their DNA and a light bulb 60 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 1: went off and like that was that was an amazing 61 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 1: first case. Like he exonerated somebody who was innocent and 62 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 1: caught the bad guy and the murdering rape of two girls. 63 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 1: Like it doesn't you can't possibly have a better first 64 00:03:56,840 --> 00:04:00,200 Speaker 1: outing than that. Um And and so as it was old, 65 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 1: DNA profiling took off like a rocket, particularly in the 66 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 1: UK at first, but then it spread very quickly to 67 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 1: other European countries and the US, And by nine the 68 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 1: FBI said, hey, all of you UM police departments in 69 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 1: the United States, you start sending your your samples into US, 70 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 1: will create profiles, will run him against the database, and 71 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 1: we will catch your bad guy for you. So it 72 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:27,120 Speaker 1: became much more standardized within three years of that first case. Yeah, 73 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 1: and all the private companies who were doing that before 74 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 1: the FBI stepped up said thanks a lot. Yeah, now 75 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 1: we're bankrupt, thanks a lot of FBI. We We had 76 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:38,600 Speaker 1: a pretty good racket going. But it did needed to 77 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 1: be codified in the database became a very big part 78 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:44,360 Speaker 1: of it because, like I said, pre database they were 79 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:46,719 Speaker 1: doing and as you'll see in some of these crimes, 80 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 1: even with the phantom things like genetic sweeps and genetic 81 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:53,239 Speaker 1: drag nets and things like that. Yeah, there was another 82 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:55,479 Speaker 1: guy who enters the picture in ninety seven he was 83 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:59,279 Speaker 1: from Austria's name was Roland van or Shot. I think 84 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:02,279 Speaker 1: I got it UM and he said, hey, you know 85 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:05,480 Speaker 1: how we only thought we could get DNA from blood, 86 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:10,120 Speaker 1: saliva or semen. It turns out we leave DNA everywhere. 87 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 1: Everything we touch has little bits of UM d NA 88 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:18,360 Speaker 1: left behind. And here's a way to extract that and 89 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:22,000 Speaker 1: and UM identify it and profile it basically UM. And 90 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 1: so now all of a sudden DNA goes from this 91 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 1: is a really useful tool. Kind of two. We can 92 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:32,240 Speaker 1: use this and basically every case we come across somebody 93 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:36,040 Speaker 1: like UM uh steals a can of coke out of 94 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 1: the Honor System coke machine, you could you could like 95 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:43,039 Speaker 1: profile their DNA and probably catch them from that. It 96 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:46,680 Speaker 1: was like it opened it up that much. It's you're dead. Yeah, 97 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 1: it stopped. It decreased UM Honor System co mashing crime 98 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 1: by like five almost overnight. Uh. Those genetic dragnets were 99 00:05:56,520 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 1: happening more and more, and then they eventually built up 100 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 1: the database such where they were less and less necessary, 101 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 1: especially when UM country started sharing data across their borders, 102 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 1: which uh here in the United States we do that 103 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:12,839 Speaker 1: in an interstate fashion. Uh. And maybe with Canada and Mexico. 104 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 1: I'm not really sure actually, but if they're lucky, if 105 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 1: we're feeling like that. Uh. And but in Europe UM, 106 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 1: this started happening about two thousand five, when Germany, Austria, Belgium, France, 107 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:26,680 Speaker 1: Luxembourg in the Netherlands said uh, and Spain said, hey, 108 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:29,839 Speaker 1: let's sign this treaty UM that means we can share 109 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 1: our our DNA findings with each other UM. Two thousand seven. 110 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:36,920 Speaker 1: That was basically all of Europe, all the EU got 111 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:39,279 Speaker 1: on board. UH. And the reason we're talking about the 112 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:43,880 Speaker 1: EU s because all of these uh, myriad crimes that 113 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 1: this phantom purportedly committed were in Europe, and mostly around Germany. Yes, 114 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 1: and because these crimes were committed after Roland von uer 115 00:06:57,080 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 1: shots um discovery that you can get DNA samples from 116 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 1: just about anything UM, the European police had become well 117 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:09,920 Speaker 1: versed in lifting DNA from crime scenes, and so they 118 00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 1: were able to track the who would come to be 119 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 1: called the Phantom of heilbron Um through the DNA left 120 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 1: behind at these crime scenes. And apparently they were already 121 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 1: tracking this person for a few years in a much 122 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 1: more isolated way. But the whole thing blew up and 123 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 1: the nickname that the Phantom of Heilbron All happened in 124 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 1: I think April of two thousand seven, when a twenty 125 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 1: two year old policewoman named Michelle kay Sweater was murdered 126 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 1: while she was taking a lunch break. Can I correct 127 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:47,920 Speaker 1: your pronunciation? Yeah, I believe that would be Kaisa Vetta. 128 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 1: That's much better when I say kay Sweater. Yeah, but 129 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 1: that's okay. She was was murdered in cold blood. She 130 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 1: was twenty years old on lunch break with a cop 131 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 1: named Martin Arnold, and they were sitting in their patrol 132 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 1: car and hal Bron and a couple of people jumped 133 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 1: in the back seat shot them from behind. They stole 134 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 1: their handcuffs, they stole their guns. Uh, and Kaisa Vetter died. 135 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 1: Martin was only twenty five and was in a coma 136 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:24,680 Speaker 1: for weeks. And if you read any interviews with Martin Arnold, 137 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:27,520 Speaker 1: that just like you know, completely wrecked this guy's life. Uh. 138 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 1: He lost memory from the point where he parked the 139 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:33,000 Speaker 1: car to eat and literally doesn't remember anything else except 140 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 1: waking up in the hospital. So all that to say, 141 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:39,280 Speaker 1: there was no identification of anything, right, yeah, I saw 142 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:41,080 Speaker 1: that he couldn't. I can imagine if you're in a 143 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 1: coma until they dislodge a bullet from your brain, it's 144 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 1: a pretty good bet you're not going to be able 145 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 1: to remember anything. Is he able to remember stuff? Now? 146 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:52,120 Speaker 1: Do you know? Like from that point on? Yeah, I 147 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 1: mean I think he recovered. But um, it was just, 148 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 1: you know, one of these sad stories of this young 149 00:08:57,080 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 1: guy who was always wanted to be a cop early 150 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 1: on on the job and you know, just gets And 151 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:06,480 Speaker 1: this was not a it's not like this crime happens 152 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 1: a lot in the US, but it was a very huge, 153 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 1: big deal crime and it like rocked Germany. It was 154 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 1: such a big scary thing. Yeah, because Heilbron is not 155 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:18,960 Speaker 1: a huge, bustling metropolis. It's a small town. And the 156 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 1: fact that the murder of a cop in the small 157 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 1: town in Germany caught the entire country's attention and outrage, 158 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 1: you know, it does go to show you like, that's 159 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:31,080 Speaker 1: a really big deal in Germany, or it was at 160 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:33,360 Speaker 1: least in two thousand and seven. And also I think 161 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:36,760 Speaker 1: the manner of the murder to where um, the perpetrator 162 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 1: of the criminals, um got to drop on them so 163 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:43,080 Speaker 1: quickly that the cops weren't even able to like, um, 164 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:46,839 Speaker 1: get their weapons out, like they just completely by surprise. 165 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 1: So it was an enormous deal. And it turned out 166 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 1: that they were able to find some genetic material UM 167 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:56,960 Speaker 1: on the rear seat of the car and on the 168 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 1: center console of the car, and they found on something 169 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:05,439 Speaker 1: really really surprising that UM. The only genetic material that 170 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:09,200 Speaker 1: they could work up a profile from belonged to a woman. 171 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:12,719 Speaker 1: And that did not fit the idea of Germans at 172 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:14,920 Speaker 1: the time of somebody who had jump in the backseat 173 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 1: of a cop car and murder a pair of cops, 174 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:22,719 Speaker 1: or murder one and try to murder the other one. Yeah, 175 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:27,959 Speaker 1: it was. It was shocking, but it was confusing at 176 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 1: the same time, like no one understood sort of the 177 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 1: findings that happened. UM. A few months later, Uh, they 178 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:36,839 Speaker 1: are working with the DNA and they said, hey, wait 179 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:42,320 Speaker 1: a minute, these samples match some other crimes that are happening. UM. 180 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:46,400 Speaker 1: Two other murders in particular. The first was from it's 181 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:49,960 Speaker 1: a cold case. Uh, this woman, I'm gonna say it's 182 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:53,600 Speaker 1: les a lot Schlanger. I was sixty two years old 183 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 1: again in Germany and it's about a hundred miles west 184 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 1: of Heilbroun. And on mate any third of that year, 185 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 1: I had put some cakes in the oven. Her neighbor 186 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 1: came by to have t knocked at the door. No 187 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 1: one answered, and it turned out that she had been Schlinger, 188 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:13,320 Speaker 1: had been strangled with the wire from a flower bouquet 189 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:17,840 Speaker 1: in her sitting room. Cops investigated a bunch of witnesses. 190 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 1: No one saw anything, no one heard anything. But we 191 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 1: have this d N A on the rim of a 192 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 1: teacup that matched the DNA from the killer of Michelle 193 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 1: kaisaveta yeah, from cold case? Right, that's right. And then 194 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:34,680 Speaker 1: there was another two thousand one cold case in the 195 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 1: murder of a man named Joseph Wallzenbach. How's that. That's great. 196 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:41,959 Speaker 1: He was an antique stealer, and he too was murdered 197 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:45,960 Speaker 1: with a weapon of opportunity, some garden twine that happened 198 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 1: to be handy. Um strangled, So both both lise a 199 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 1: lot and Um Joseph were strangled Um and he was 200 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:56,280 Speaker 1: strangled in his shop, and they they found d NA 201 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 1: on his body, a few items in the shop, and 202 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:01,480 Speaker 1: then the back of a close which is so creepy 203 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:04,960 Speaker 1: that they assumed that, um, the phantom who would be 204 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:07,559 Speaker 1: come to be known as the Phantom, put the clothes 205 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 1: sign out and left. Um, that's just cold, you know 206 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 1: for sure, that kind of calculation. Yeah, that's like a 207 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 1: movie shot right there. Yeah, it's just scary. So now 208 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:23,559 Speaker 1: we have three murders, um, and an attempted murder. Two 209 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:27,280 Speaker 1: of the victims were cops. UM, all of them linked 210 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:32,079 Speaker 1: to the same woman over the course from two thousand 211 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:37,439 Speaker 1: and seven, all in roughly the same general area of Germany. Yeah, 212 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:39,880 Speaker 1: and two of the murders are similar enough, and that 213 00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 1: they were strangled with some kind of wire and I 214 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 1: think both were missing just little amounts of money. Um, 215 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 1: it didn't seem like a huge robbery kind of thing, 216 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:51,679 Speaker 1: but they were close enough to where there were some 217 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:54,960 Speaker 1: similarities to where they said, Okay, these make a little 218 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:58,320 Speaker 1: bit of sense together. However, except that it was a 219 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:01,760 Speaker 1: woman who was strangling, which is not common at all. Uh. 220 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:04,320 Speaker 1: And then the cop one though that many years later 221 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 1: was really kind of threw everyone for a loop. Um. Nevertheless, 222 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 1: the DNA all matched and so the media started in 223 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 1: with his story. Like you said, the Phantom of heil 224 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:19,000 Speaker 1: Broom or the woman without a face. Yeah, and apparently 225 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:21,079 Speaker 1: she's been known as the woman without a face before 226 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:23,680 Speaker 1: when they were tracking those two cold cases that they've 227 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 1: matched the DNA too before, and then with the murder 228 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:29,839 Speaker 1: of the police officer, Um, she became the Phantom of 229 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 1: Heilbron Um. So now German UM investigators were like, we 230 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 1: have a woman serial killer on our hands who's been 231 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 1: active at least since and no one has seen her, 232 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 1: and we need to find this person a S A P. 233 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 1: Because she's now a cop killer. All right, I think 234 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 1: it's a great cliffhanger. Yep. Should we take a break? Ye? 235 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:53,800 Speaker 1: All right, We'll be right back with more of the 236 00:13:53,800 --> 00:14:16,560 Speaker 1: Phantom of heilbron right after this. So, Chuck, I have 237 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 1: to say, I just want to say this, Um. There 238 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 1: was a part where we're talking about DNA profile sharing 239 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 1: the across the EU in two thousand seven, they also 240 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 1: were sharing license plate information and that occurred to me 241 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 1: that the font on those plates was false song suresh 242 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 1: one day shrift. Yeah, and I just I spelled it out. 243 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:41,720 Speaker 1: I sounded it out. My god, I was gonna say 244 00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 1: it in this episode, come hell or high water. Good job, 245 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 1: thanks um, all right. So where we last left you 246 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 1: was there is the murder of a police officer, the 247 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 1: serious wounding of another, and then two cold cases from 248 00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 1: many years before, all tied to the same d n 249 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:03,360 Speaker 1: A of what they know is one um. All of 250 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 1: a sudden, they start matching this DNA with these uh 251 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 1: you know, people start sharing databases in crime um particulars 252 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:14,800 Speaker 1: around the EU, and they said, wait a minute, this 253 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 1: person's DNA is everywhere. There's and and it's not murders. 254 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 1: There are a dozen break INDs, and there are car 255 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:26,680 Speaker 1: thefts in Austria and in France and in Germany. And 256 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 1: there's a break in in an office in Germany. There's 257 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 1: a burglary in Mainz, Germany. The the gas cap of 258 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 1: a car that was stolen had this d A d 259 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:40,360 Speaker 1: n A on it. In two thousand three, there was 260 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:43,240 Speaker 1: a toy pistol used in a robbery in France with 261 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:45,360 Speaker 1: this d n A on it. And everyone is like, 262 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 1: that's why this name Phantom of Heilbron like locked in 263 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 1: so much, because all of a sudden, like you could 264 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:53,920 Speaker 1: go on for an hour listing the crimes that this 265 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:57,840 Speaker 1: DNA was found at. Yeah, so we've got a female 266 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 1: serial killer in Germany who also Pierce savoth taste for 267 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:05,360 Speaker 1: just common crimes as well, so much so that it 268 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 1: seemed like she may have been more of a um 269 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 1: like a burglar or robber who was totally fine with 270 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 1: murder but didn't need to murder all the time. Um, 271 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 1: more than a serial killer that liked to engage in 272 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:24,400 Speaker 1: petty crime and one of those, I just have to say, 273 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 1: one of those um burglaries. A breaking at an office 274 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:31,480 Speaker 1: in Dietzenbach on New Year's Day two thousand three. One 275 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 1: of the prosecutors in this case, who was tracking the phantom, 276 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:38,600 Speaker 1: named Gunter Horn, said that this was a professional job. 277 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 1: It's a quote, but it was the theft of a 278 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 1: can of loose change. So I thought that was kind 279 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 1: of hilarious that he was like, this person is of 280 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 1: aiding us that it's a professional job no matter what 281 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 1: she's doing, even if she's stealing loose change in a 282 00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 1: coffee can from an office, doesn't matter. She's pro Well. 283 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 1: I mean, that's the kind of interesting thing about this case, 284 00:16:57,480 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 1: I think is once you have this DNA at all 285 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 1: these crimes, your your cop masterminds are going to start 286 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:07,080 Speaker 1: trying to piece together and they did in this case, 287 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 1: like we gotta profile this person, and what kind of 288 00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:12,280 Speaker 1: a person would I don't think we mentioned that was 289 00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 1: also the DNA was found on a heroin needle. Yeah, 290 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:17,360 Speaker 1: that was a big turning point to a seven year 291 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 1: old stepped on in Germany and his parents said, hey, 292 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:23,359 Speaker 1: can you investigate this? My kids stepped on this needle. 293 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:25,879 Speaker 1: They swabbed it and found that DNA. So all of 294 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:28,920 Speaker 1: a sudden, this profile was like, this is a drug user. 295 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 1: Maybe she steals little bits to to fund the drug 296 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:36,359 Speaker 1: habit and maybe, like you said, the murders just happened 297 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 1: out of necessity because of these petty crimes. So kind 298 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:42,480 Speaker 1: of the point is like, once you've got all these 299 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 1: weird disparate crimes, um, you're still gonna have cops that 300 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:49,880 Speaker 1: are trying to tie them to a single sort of brain. Right, 301 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 1: they were just trying to figure out who they were 302 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 1: after basically. Um, So yeah, that heroin syringe from two 303 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 1: thousand one really kind of explain things like the coffee 304 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:02,480 Speaker 1: came and of loose change, you know, um, those kind 305 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 1: of robberies and breake ins um. And then there was 306 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 1: another thing that kind of added to the puzzle as 307 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:11,199 Speaker 1: they were on her trail. Um in two thousand five 308 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 1: in Verms in Germany. UM, a Roma man shot his 309 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:22,239 Speaker 1: brother and so the police were, um getting stuff from 310 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:26,880 Speaker 1: the crime scene. What's they called. They were collecting evidence 311 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:31,600 Speaker 1: from the crime scene, and um, the DNA they found 312 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 1: on one of the bullets was the phantoms. So now 313 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 1: they're like, okay, this kind of explains how she's making 314 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:43,240 Speaker 1: her way back and forth around the EU in France, Germany, Austria. 315 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:47,239 Speaker 1: She's she's basically looked up with the Roman community, if 316 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:51,119 Speaker 1: not Roma herself. Um. And then there was one other 317 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 1: thing too, Um, she had accomplices in some of these crimes, 318 00:18:56,840 --> 00:19:00,440 Speaker 1: and they were none of them would say a word 319 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:02,960 Speaker 1: about her. They all clammed up. Whenever the cops went 320 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 1: to them and said, hey, you know this crime you 321 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:07,159 Speaker 1: got busted four we just found out that you had 322 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 1: an accomplice, They would just not They just stopped talking. Yeah, 323 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:14,240 Speaker 1: And uh, I think when I think it was the 324 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:17,359 Speaker 1: gunter Horn talked about the fact that I think his 325 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:21,600 Speaker 1: frustration and police's general frustration that even after these people 326 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:24,119 Speaker 1: are behind bars, they're still not talking and they're not 327 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:28,159 Speaker 1: saying anything. So they basically said what we kind of 328 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:31,640 Speaker 1: did was basically wait for reports to come in with 329 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:35,080 Speaker 1: this d n A turning up again and then we 330 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:38,880 Speaker 1: would have a new lead. And between I think, uh 331 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:42,719 Speaker 1: two thousand seven, summer two thousand seven and spring two 332 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:47,639 Speaker 1: thousand eight, um, they were like garden shed break ins. 333 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 1: Sometimes food and drink was stolen. Um, nothing real big happened. 334 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:58,880 Speaker 1: But again lots of more crimes start trickling in. Um. 335 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 1: And they think also the that those garden shed break ins, 336 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:05,360 Speaker 1: that she was spending the night in those garden sheds, 337 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:07,919 Speaker 1: So that would suggest also that she was aware she 338 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:10,680 Speaker 1: was being hunted and on the run. Yes, look right there, 339 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:16,240 Speaker 1: you can see a depression in the haystack right so. Um. 340 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 1: So there was another one too, and I believe this 341 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:22,280 Speaker 1: was the last crime. They they Yeah, I think it 342 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:25,200 Speaker 1: was the last crime. No, it wasn't. There was another crime. 343 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:28,120 Speaker 1: It was a little odd, um it was. It took 344 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:31,720 Speaker 1: place in near the Luxembourg border where a woman who 345 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 1: was the manager of the cleaning staff at a fishing lodge. 346 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:36,400 Speaker 1: Someone snuck up behind her, hit her on the head 347 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:39,480 Speaker 1: hard and made off with three hundred euros that I 348 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 1: guess she had on her. And when they they did, 349 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:45,359 Speaker 1: they collected evidence in the room at that fishing lodge. 350 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:49,480 Speaker 1: They found the phantom's DNA there. Now, from what I saw, 351 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:53,240 Speaker 1: it wasn't on the woman or any weapon or anything 352 00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:55,919 Speaker 1: like that, just in the room. So they didn't know 353 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 1: whether she had been there before or whether she was 354 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 1: involved in this. But either way they were like, Okay, 355 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:04,680 Speaker 1: now she's over by Luxembourg too. I flew out of 356 00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:08,920 Speaker 1: Luxembourg once. Oh yeah, how how's the airport? I threw 357 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:13,040 Speaker 1: up in a trash can at the airport. Long story. 358 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 1: Does it have to do with rope trauma? No? Now 359 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 1: we have two mysteries. Almost got um. So the biggest 360 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:27,000 Speaker 1: crime aside from that initial uh police murder uh in 361 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 1: these cold cases came in two thousand eight with a 362 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:33,600 Speaker 1: triple murder. This was in January two tho eight. The 363 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:38,040 Speaker 1: bodies of three used car dealers from Georgia European Georgia 364 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:41,160 Speaker 1: not here, We're found in the Rhine River in Germany 365 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:44,199 Speaker 1: and two men were arrested, a forty year old Iraqi 366 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 1: and twenty six year old Somalian citizen. So they looked 367 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:51,359 Speaker 1: at these guys and say, we know what happened. Um. 368 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:55,560 Speaker 1: These car dealers were in town getting cars to sell 369 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:58,720 Speaker 1: back home, and they had a lot of cash on them, 370 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:01,639 Speaker 1: so you murder them for their me They searched the 371 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 1: one suspect, the Iraqi suspect, and they found traces of 372 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:10,919 Speaker 1: you guessed it, the phantom of Heilbron DNA was in 373 00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 1: that car. Yeah, please question the guy. And again he's 374 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:16,560 Speaker 1: not talking. He has no nothing to say to the 375 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:20,240 Speaker 1: police about who this mystery woman is. Yep. So now 376 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:24,840 Speaker 1: she's shown that she's capable of, if not participating in, 377 00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:29,439 Speaker 1: at least presiding over triple homicides. That is not that 378 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 1: many people are capable of triple homicides, you know, But 379 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:35,080 Speaker 1: it's also kind of not surprising if you look at 380 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:38,119 Speaker 1: her past that she's also willing to get up in 381 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 1: close and personal and strangle elderly citizens with garden twine. 382 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:44,560 Speaker 1: So it's not that big of a shock, but it's 383 00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:47,680 Speaker 1: a it's a it's a big addition to the profile 384 00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:50,640 Speaker 1: of of her that the police are coming up with. 385 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:53,720 Speaker 1: And so um, they started to put all this stuff 386 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 1: together like that the syringe suggested that she used drugs, 387 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 1: and you know, some of the pettier crime suggested that 388 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:05,960 Speaker 1: she was committing them to probably get drugs. Um. She 389 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:10,640 Speaker 1: generally stuck around southwestern Germany, but she also was capable 390 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:14,399 Speaker 1: of moving over to Austria and France, and so they 391 00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:19,040 Speaker 1: said her connection with the Roma probably helps her do that. Um. 392 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 1: So they were putting this together and they still weren't 393 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:28,520 Speaker 1: finding anybody. No one was emerging like she just kept 394 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:31,480 Speaker 1: eluding them crime after crime after crime. And one of 395 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:34,359 Speaker 1: the big problems was is there was either no eye 396 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:37,480 Speaker 1: witnesses to the crime or no eye witnesses saw her. 397 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:42,000 Speaker 1: And then one day, one day there was an attempted 398 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:45,919 Speaker 1: break in and star breaking in two thousand six. By 399 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:47,720 Speaker 1: the way, I'm expecting you to be like your way 400 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:49,600 Speaker 1: off if I'm way off, and if you say nothing, 401 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 1: then I nailed it. That's how I'm taking these correct, okay, 402 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:58,200 Speaker 1: and and sar breaken uh that somebody saw the person 403 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:00,879 Speaker 1: attempting to to break in, and in that break in 404 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:05,480 Speaker 1: attempt they found the phantom's DNA. But the puzzler was 405 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:09,760 Speaker 1: that the person the eyewitness who saw the attempted burglar 406 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 1: described a man with a soul patch, even a terrible, 407 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:17,560 Speaker 1: terrible soul patch. And this added a whole another twist 408 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 1: to the mystery, and one interesting thing notably though, is 409 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 1: none of the crimes, even though there are crimes committed 410 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:26,560 Speaker 1: all over this area, none of them happened in Bavaria, 411 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 1: which is a little unusual because it's right there. But 412 00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 1: just put a pin in that one, which suggested then 413 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 1: to the cops that is possible that the phantom who 414 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:37,639 Speaker 1: they knew to have the sex of a female but 415 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 1: had a soul patch, conceivably may have actually been a 416 00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:45,679 Speaker 1: transgender man. So they added that to the profile as well, 417 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:48,200 Speaker 1: that's right, which I'm sure you know, added a whole 418 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:51,480 Speaker 1: other layer for them. Another layer that was added that 419 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 1: we should mention was that Germany had I guess you 420 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:56,840 Speaker 1: could call a very um I guess to put it 421 00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 1: kindly rocky historical record of identifying races and ethnicities as 422 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:08,160 Speaker 1: a country. UM. So because of that, there were pretty 423 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:11,840 Speaker 1: strict laws on how Germany could use DNA and how 424 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:14,440 Speaker 1: much insight they could get from it. So, in other words, 425 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:18,720 Speaker 1: an investigator UH in Germany was not allowed to determine 426 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:22,119 Speaker 1: race or ethnicity, or hair or eye color using DNA. 427 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 1: Um It was possible in Austria, so they're a little 428 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:29,760 Speaker 1: less strict there at the time, and they were able 429 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:31,480 Speaker 1: to take a closer look at this d n A 430 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:35,240 Speaker 1: and say, hey, we think we can't be sure because 431 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:39,520 Speaker 1: it's two thousand. What year was this seven or eight? Uh. 432 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:43,119 Speaker 1: We're pretty sure though that this woman probably has blonde 433 00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:46,280 Speaker 1: hair and blue eyes. Um, so we got that going 434 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:49,359 Speaker 1: for us. Yeah, but they also said in some interviews 435 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 1: that they're like, that's I mean, we're talking about Germany 436 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:55,320 Speaker 1: for one. But also they said that they was accurate, 437 00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:58,680 Speaker 1: so the margin of error left the possibility of UM 438 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:02,680 Speaker 1: falsely arresting hundreds of thousands of Germans. So they essentially 439 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:04,960 Speaker 1: they might as well have not had any idea what 440 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:07,959 Speaker 1: her hair eye color was. Yeah. Again, this is the 441 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:10,680 Speaker 1: early days of d NA UM such that they also 442 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:13,800 Speaker 1: did a DNA dragnet. Uh. This is pretty pretty big, 443 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:17,200 Speaker 1: long shot, but they did saliva swab of about three 444 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 1: thousand women in Belgium, France and southern Germany and Italy. Uh. 445 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:27,080 Speaker 1: They focused on drug users, unhoused women, women with criminal 446 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:30,679 Speaker 1: records that were pretty serious. They offered up big time money. 447 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:34,320 Speaker 1: I believe it got up to about three hundred thousand 448 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:38,159 Speaker 1: euros uh, a lot of dough um, but you know, 449 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:40,919 Speaker 1: nothing was helping out. And in total, I think They 450 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:44,159 Speaker 1: ended up spending what they guessed to be about sixteen 451 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:49,880 Speaker 1: thousand hours of police overtime pursuing the Phantom of Heilbroun, 452 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:53,159 Speaker 1: and yet she kept a luning him Chuck and I 453 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:56,240 Speaker 1: say that we take our second break and come back 454 00:26:56,440 --> 00:27:20,560 Speaker 1: and talk about how she was finally apprehended. Let's do it. Yeah, okay, 455 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:24,280 Speaker 1: So now we're in March two thousand nine. Um, this 456 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:26,840 Speaker 1: is uh finally the case that kind of breaks things 457 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:30,400 Speaker 1: wide open for the Phantom of Heilbron When police were 458 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:33,840 Speaker 1: investigating the death of a man who died in a 459 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:37,280 Speaker 1: fire and thought maybe he was an asylum seeker who 460 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:40,280 Speaker 1: had disappeared years before, and so they were trying to 461 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:43,200 Speaker 1: find out if this was the same the burned body 462 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:46,000 Speaker 1: that they found was the same as this asylum seeker. 463 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 1: They tested a card where they know that this asylum 464 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:53,760 Speaker 1: seeker had given fingerprints, like here is my fingerprint d 465 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:58,359 Speaker 1: NA right here, and it matched the phantom. And they said, 466 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:01,960 Speaker 1: well that all right, I know this phantom matches have 467 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:05,879 Speaker 1: been crazy, but this is literally impossible. We know who 468 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:09,119 Speaker 1: this man was and it is a man. It is 469 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:11,679 Speaker 1: not a woman who had committed these crimes. So they 470 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:15,280 Speaker 1: said let's retest it and the DNA has disappeared from 471 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:18,840 Speaker 1: the card. And then everyone went, well, what in the 472 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:21,880 Speaker 1: wide wide world sports is are going on here? Right? 473 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:26,199 Speaker 1: And before they could answer that question, a German magazine 474 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:32,199 Speaker 1: named Stern came out and said, um, guys, there is 475 00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 1: no phantom of heil Braun who. Yeah, they've been chasing 476 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:43,960 Speaker 1: false positives from DNA matches, likely from contaminated equipment or swabs, right, 477 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:48,520 Speaker 1: And what they realized they had literally been tracking were 478 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:53,440 Speaker 1: cotton swabs. They have been tracking the DNA of a 479 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:57,160 Speaker 1: woman who worked in a cotton swab factory that they 480 00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:01,520 Speaker 1: used to um take DNA sample from. That was the 481 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:04,920 Speaker 1: phantom of Heilbron was a I think a seventy one 482 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:07,880 Speaker 1: year old Polish grandmother who worked in the factory of 483 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,760 Speaker 1: the cotton swapmaker. Yeah, so I tried to find out 484 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:15,200 Speaker 1: who she was specifically, I couldn't and I also found 485 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:19,480 Speaker 1: that it was there were quite a few older Polish women. 486 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:22,120 Speaker 1: I guess that kind of thing happened sometimes where you 487 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 1: hire a bunch of people out from an area, So 488 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 1: it could have possibly been from other women in that 489 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,000 Speaker 1: same area who worked at the factory. Because I couldn't 490 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:35,680 Speaker 1: find her actual name, did you not that? I feel 491 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,760 Speaker 1: like I did see it somewhere in one of the articles. Okay, 492 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:40,800 Speaker 1: I didn't know if they tried to grant her a 493 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:46,840 Speaker 1: non unminimon I don't. I swear, I swear I saw it. 494 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:49,920 Speaker 1: I'm almost positive because I could see why they be. Yeah, 495 00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:52,520 Speaker 1: they'd make her anonymous. But then in retrospect, she didn't 496 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:56,040 Speaker 1: do anything wrong. It wasn't her. But you avoid people 497 00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:59,040 Speaker 1: from bothering this old lady. Sure, But as a matter 498 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,320 Speaker 1: of fact, the cops. The first thing the cops did 499 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 1: was throw the maker of these cotton swabs right under 500 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:07,480 Speaker 1: the bus. Because you can imagine everybody, the phantom of Heilbron, 501 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:12,760 Speaker 1: this internationally described criminal that the cops have been after 502 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:17,160 Speaker 1: for years, that the Heilbron police alone spent sixteen thousand 503 00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:22,240 Speaker 1: overtime hours trying to catch, didn't exist. There was no phantom. 504 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:24,680 Speaker 1: It was such a on the cops faces that you 505 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 1: they're still peeling it off. And so of course they said, 506 00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:31,000 Speaker 1: this is the manufacturer's fault. What the hay is going on? 507 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:33,480 Speaker 1: Why is there other people's d n A on these 508 00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:37,240 Speaker 1: cotton swabs when you're double double packaging, and we considered 509 00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:40,240 Speaker 1: these one one cops said the Mercedes of cotton swabs, 510 00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:43,800 Speaker 1: and the manufacturers like, well, we never said you could 511 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,640 Speaker 1: use them for d N a collection. Yeah. They've fired 512 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:49,000 Speaker 1: back pretty quickly and said these are for testing food 513 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:55,840 Speaker 1: guys or medical testing, hygienic tests like definitely not collecting DNA. UM. 514 00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:58,960 Speaker 1: I don't think we mentioned either before this even happened. 515 00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:01,719 Speaker 1: As soon as it sort of came out from Stern 516 00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 1: the magazine, there were investigators that said, sort of on 517 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:08,640 Speaker 1: the downlow, for at least six months, we've been kind 518 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,040 Speaker 1: of wondering and investigating whether or not this could have 519 00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:15,800 Speaker 1: been a contaminated evidence case. Yeah. The other investigators were like, well, 520 00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 1: thank you for even mentioning that to us. They kept 521 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:22,160 Speaker 1: that pretty quiet though, Um to put a button on. 522 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:26,240 Speaker 1: The Bavarian thing is, Bavaria did not source their swabs 523 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:29,640 Speaker 1: from this company. So that's explains why there was never 524 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 1: any DNA even though Bavaria is right there where all 525 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 1: these crimes were happening. Yeah, and the company was Grinder 526 00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:38,160 Speaker 1: bio One International, a g and the thing that that 527 00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:40,719 Speaker 1: claimed that they were like, well, we never said this 528 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,440 Speaker 1: is for DNA collection. It's for like food, food stuff 529 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:46,560 Speaker 1: sampling and stuff like that. Um. The cops were like, 530 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:48,880 Speaker 1: well then why have you been selling them to police 531 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:54,120 Speaker 1: departments all over Austria and Germany? Um, you know, what's what? 532 00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:56,640 Speaker 1: What did you think we were using them for? And 533 00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,520 Speaker 1: the company was just like you wint them out and 534 00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:01,760 Speaker 1: it was like it's the same you know. Yeah, there 535 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:06,360 Speaker 1: was a PR spokesperson shaped dust cloud just left at 536 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:08,760 Speaker 1: the podium. That was it. Well, they're like, I thought 537 00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:12,320 Speaker 1: you were testing your give a coke, take a coke, 538 00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:19,680 Speaker 1: saying in your office your honor your coke machine honor system. Alright, 539 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:21,840 Speaker 1: so I guess, uh, we should talk a little bit 540 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:25,320 Speaker 1: about what this what happened because of this? Um it was, 541 00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:28,960 Speaker 1: like you said, a big humiliation for the German police. Um. 542 00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 1: It was also a bit of a hit on d 543 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:35,480 Speaker 1: N a sampling. Um. You know, we've talked about DNA 544 00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:39,800 Speaker 1: a lot over the years, and DNA is great in 545 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:44,080 Speaker 1: collection of DNA for exoneration and for for proving someone 546 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:46,280 Speaker 1: as guilty as is amazing and it's really come a 547 00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:49,520 Speaker 1: long way. But DNA has always sort of giveth and 548 00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 1: taketh away in certain cases. Uh, it's not perfect, Like 549 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:55,600 Speaker 1: Livia says it's not a silver bullet, and I think 550 00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:57,720 Speaker 1: it was sort of has always kind of been painted 551 00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:02,000 Speaker 1: that way, especially for juries are like, you know, when 552 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:04,360 Speaker 1: they see DNA evidence, I think the first thing you 553 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:07,120 Speaker 1: think is that's like as iron glad as it gets. Yeah, 554 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:10,200 Speaker 1: and that's not necessarily always the case. No, And as 555 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:12,040 Speaker 1: a matter of fact, if you zoom out a couple 556 00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:14,720 Speaker 1: of orders of magnitude and look at this case, the 557 00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:18,640 Speaker 1: Phantom of Heilbron case needed to happen because people were 558 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:22,880 Speaker 1: being convicted on circumstantial DNA evidence alone, like their DNA 559 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:25,040 Speaker 1: had been found in the scene, not on the murder weapon, 560 00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:27,760 Speaker 1: not on the body, just at the scene, and people 561 00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:30,560 Speaker 1: are going to prison for that kind of stuff because judges, 562 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:34,760 Speaker 1: juries prosecutors saw DNA is like infallible. Basically, if your 563 00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:37,720 Speaker 1: DNA was there, you were guilty essentially. So the Phantom 564 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:40,680 Speaker 1: of heil Bron case really slowed that down. And like 565 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:43,920 Speaker 1: you said, it didn't say d there's there's a lot 566 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:47,800 Speaker 1: wrong with DNA in using that for forensics. It's hey, 567 00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:50,239 Speaker 1: this is a really good way to to come up 568 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:52,680 Speaker 1: with evidence, but you need to also do the old 569 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:55,840 Speaker 1: fashioned police work to fill it out to make sure 570 00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:58,080 Speaker 1: you have the right person. So it just kind of 571 00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:01,240 Speaker 1: slowed everybody down in like it was. I think it 572 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:04,120 Speaker 1: was really necessary because this is like the time when 573 00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:07,360 Speaker 1: c s I was at its peak yet TV show 574 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:10,440 Speaker 1: was huge at like in two thousand and eight um 575 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:14,239 Speaker 1: and and like that had that was because everybody thought 576 00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:16,000 Speaker 1: of d n A in that way, So it was 577 00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:19,440 Speaker 1: good it happened in a sense. Yeah. Absolutely. There was 578 00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:23,560 Speaker 1: one case, if you want to get specific from Olivia 579 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:25,279 Speaker 1: dug Up for us, where there was an English cab 580 00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:29,680 Speaker 1: driver whose DNA was discovered from the fingernails of a 581 00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:32,840 Speaker 1: murdered woman. And you know, a jury, here's that and 582 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:35,879 Speaker 1: they're like fingernails, Like of course he did it because 583 00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:38,080 Speaker 1: she was fighting him off and got his DNA under 584 00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:41,880 Speaker 1: her fingernails. But it was someone who rode in his 585 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:44,600 Speaker 1: cab and got a little little bit of that d 586 00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:46,880 Speaker 1: NA on him, killed this woman and got that d 587 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:50,200 Speaker 1: n A on her. Uh. And I believe the cabby 588 00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:52,840 Speaker 1: spent eight months in jail before they found out the 589 00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:55,640 Speaker 1: truth and acquitted him. So that's a tough one though. 590 00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:58,400 Speaker 1: Well sure, I mean that's an outlier, but it's just 591 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:01,160 Speaker 1: a good example of how it needs you need to 592 00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:03,399 Speaker 1: tread a little lighter. I think one of the other 593 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:05,560 Speaker 1: things though, is it's not like this should have been 594 00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:10,000 Speaker 1: a surprise for everybody, UM that d N A wasn't 595 00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:14,880 Speaker 1: infallible because back in our friend or shoot or shot, 596 00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:17,160 Speaker 1: the guy who said, hey, you can get d NA 597 00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:20,359 Speaker 1: off of everything, his his research also showed you can 598 00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:24,400 Speaker 1: also really really easily contaminate anything with d NA, So 599 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:26,640 Speaker 1: we should all be very careful. Everybody's like all we 600 00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:28,960 Speaker 1: heard was we can get DNA samples off of anything. 601 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:31,160 Speaker 1: There's like, we didn't hear all that. We weren't within 602 00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:37,879 Speaker 1: or shot. Oh man, that was amazing, chuck, holy hate. 603 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:42,719 Speaker 1: But that was that filled my heart. So there was 604 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:47,320 Speaker 1: there's an international standard, the International Organization for Standardization, I 605 00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:51,400 Speaker 1: should say an international organization UM. They published a new 606 00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:55,520 Speaker 1: standard called i s O three eight five that basically says, 607 00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:59,800 Speaker 1: this is how you UM collect forensic evidence with DNA 608 00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:04,400 Speaker 1: to minimize UM contamination that kind of stuff. And I 609 00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:08,279 Speaker 1: read a forensic blog UM who was who said were 610 00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:12,240 Speaker 1: these were the the DNA analysts not even doing control samples? 611 00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:14,640 Speaker 1: And I went and looked it up. And a control 612 00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:16,799 Speaker 1: sample is one of the most basic things you can 613 00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:19,600 Speaker 1: do where you take your cotton swab that has, like say, 614 00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:22,680 Speaker 1: a blood stain on it, and you pull off a 615 00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:25,759 Speaker 1: little bit of the cotton swab that's not stained, and 616 00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:28,200 Speaker 1: you test them both to make sure that the cotton 617 00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:30,920 Speaker 1: swab that's not staying doesn't come back with any genetic material. 618 00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:34,440 Speaker 1: If it does, your sample is compromised. And they weren't 619 00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:36,319 Speaker 1: doing that apparently, or else they would have figured this 620 00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:40,040 Speaker 1: out almost immediately. So they were not doing very basic stuff. 621 00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:43,520 Speaker 1: And maybe it's because it hadn't been standardized, like this 622 00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:45,759 Speaker 1: is what you're supposed to do by that time. But 623 00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:48,680 Speaker 1: you know, in two thousands sixteen, finally they got around 624 00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:51,040 Speaker 1: to saying, here's how you do it. Right. It's like 625 00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:53,879 Speaker 1: when you put on a band aid. You take off 626 00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:57,120 Speaker 1: the peely part and you hold it by the sticky part. 627 00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:00,560 Speaker 1: You don't hold it by the bandage, right, and then 628 00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:03,600 Speaker 1: you take a sample of the bandage and then you 629 00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:07,640 Speaker 1: run it through your DNA profiling machine. Sure so, and 630 00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:10,200 Speaker 1: there's actually those things exist. Now, there's something called rapid 631 00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:15,279 Speaker 1: DNA machines. Yeah, because DNA is not going anywhere, nor 632 00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:17,800 Speaker 1: should it. You can look no further than the Golden 633 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:21,720 Speaker 1: State killer case. Where they actually caught the serial killer 634 00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:25,400 Speaker 1: who killed like scores of people, are raped scores of 635 00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:29,320 Speaker 1: women and killed I think a dozen or more people. Um, 636 00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:31,560 Speaker 1: just through his DNA They found it through like a 637 00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:35,640 Speaker 1: genetic genealogy site. Um, they discovered this guy. So yeah, 638 00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:37,759 Speaker 1: you don't actually want to get rid of d n A. 639 00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:40,759 Speaker 1: But what seems to be problematic is we're going a 640 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:44,640 Speaker 1: different way where now police stations have these rapid DNA 641 00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:47,160 Speaker 1: machines where you just throw a cotton swab in and 642 00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:49,839 Speaker 1: it spits out a genetic profile that you can run 643 00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:54,719 Speaker 1: in CODIS. But that you're taking the professional analyst out 644 00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:57,440 Speaker 1: of the out of the equation, and that seems dangerous 645 00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:01,240 Speaker 1: to a lot of people. Yeah. Absolutely, Um to button 646 00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:03,800 Speaker 1: up the original case that sort of got this all started, 647 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:08,680 Speaker 1: which was the murder of Officer Michel Kaisaveta. Um it 648 00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:12,040 Speaker 1: was Nazis, uh. What they found out, it was a 649 00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:15,400 Speaker 1: very small terror of cell of just three people, the 650 00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:20,080 Speaker 1: National Socialists underground uh, and they were tied to the 651 00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:22,560 Speaker 1: larger Nazi movement, but they carried out a series of 652 00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:30,040 Speaker 1: murders throughout Germany from two thousand seven and all except 653 00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:33,759 Speaker 1: for the officers, all the other victims were immigrants, one 654 00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:37,680 Speaker 1: Greek citizen and eight of Turkish origin. And it was 655 00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:43,080 Speaker 1: two members of that group Uei Mundlos and Ui Bernhardt, 656 00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:47,120 Speaker 1: the two the two Ouhis. They robbed a bank um 657 00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:50,880 Speaker 1: in Eisenhocken, Germany. They were spotted um and this is 658 00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:53,799 Speaker 1: after after the murder. This is in and how they 659 00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:56,520 Speaker 1: got caught, well, not quite caught, but they were spotted. 660 00:38:56,560 --> 00:39:00,040 Speaker 1: And as police approached their burned out care of and 661 00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:04,040 Speaker 1: where they were hiding out, Moondlow's killed Boondhardt and then 662 00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:08,080 Speaker 1: himself and what looked like a murder suicide, even though 663 00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:12,279 Speaker 1: I think Brunehardt's last words were wall hold on man, 664 00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:16,080 Speaker 1: that's dark, that's dark. But these are Nazis. But they 665 00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:21,120 Speaker 1: also they they linked these guys to her murder um 666 00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:24,799 Speaker 1: directly using DNA analysis. They found sweatpants that had been 667 00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:29,720 Speaker 1: stained with blood that match Kaisa Vetters DNA and that 668 00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:32,400 Speaker 1: that's that's kind of neat how it came full circle 669 00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:34,960 Speaker 1: like that. But at the same time, it also strongly 670 00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:38,320 Speaker 1: suggests that these guys were wearing sweatpants with the police 671 00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:41,240 Speaker 1: woman's blood on them for three years. That's how gross 672 00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:44,560 Speaker 1: these stupid Nazis were. Yeah, and you know, it's even 673 00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:47,520 Speaker 1: funnier as I believe it's keys of Vetter After I 674 00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:49,440 Speaker 1: had my whole thing at the beginning about the I 675 00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:52,879 Speaker 1: and the E in German? Who keys of vetters? Even better? Yeah, 676 00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:54,840 Speaker 1: I think I screwed up the whole thing. We just 677 00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:58,480 Speaker 1: record it all, let's start from the beginning. So there 678 00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:01,400 Speaker 1: were two other outcomes from this. One was, hey, you guys, 679 00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:08,000 Speaker 1: UM ignored the murder of eight Turks and one Greek citizen. UM, 680 00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:12,040 Speaker 1: but yet you spent sixteen thousand overtime hours chasing the phantom? 681 00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:14,960 Speaker 1: How is that work? Why are you doing that? And 682 00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:18,520 Speaker 1: then also it really showed and revealed just how much 683 00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:23,840 Speaker 1: UM investigators will bend and shape their theories into really weird, 684 00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:28,840 Speaker 1: ridiculous shapes just to make it fit the DNA evidence, 685 00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:32,200 Speaker 1: rather than stopping and being like, wait, what what is 686 00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:34,480 Speaker 1: this again? This doesn't make any sense? Are we do 687 00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:36,560 Speaker 1: we have the right Are we on the right track? 688 00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:41,680 Speaker 1: So that's it, everybody, that's the Phantom of Heilbron. It 689 00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:44,920 Speaker 1: was a good one. That's an amazing story. And if 690 00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:46,880 Speaker 1: you want to know more about the Phantom of Heilbron, 691 00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:49,520 Speaker 1: you can search that on your favorite search engine and 692 00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:52,439 Speaker 1: jump down that rabbit hole. And since I said rabbit hole, 693 00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:55,200 Speaker 1: as always, that means it's time for a listener mail. 694 00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:00,960 Speaker 1: This is a very kind of cool little thedendum from 695 00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:05,480 Speaker 1: Eve in Libertyville, Illinois. Hey guys, well, listening to the 696 00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:08,560 Speaker 1: Selects episode on invasive species and one of you kind 697 00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:11,680 Speaker 1: of joke that would be crazy to shoot invasive plants 698 00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:15,320 Speaker 1: to eliminate them. And now it's been years since that episode, 699 00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:19,120 Speaker 1: but get this. I recently watched a nature documentary, Green 700 00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:21,840 Speaker 1: Planet with David Edinborough, which is awesome, and there's a 701 00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:26,120 Speaker 1: section on shooting invasive plants. Uh. In Maui, there's an 702 00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:29,560 Speaker 1: invasive plant called the micnia that's native to Mexico, and 703 00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:33,200 Speaker 1: sharp shooters and helicopters are being used to shoot the 704 00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:37,880 Speaker 1: plants growing on steep hillsides with herbicides without affecting the 705 00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:40,799 Speaker 1: entire ecosystem. Just another example of creative ways people have 706 00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:44,880 Speaker 1: found to fight invasive species. Attached to link. Thanks for 707 00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:48,919 Speaker 1: all you do. Eve in Libertyville, Illinois. Amazing, Thanks Eve. 708 00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:52,560 Speaker 1: Did we did we create that? Chuck? Did we cause that? Yeah? 709 00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:56,040 Speaker 1: I don't know. Let's say we did, Okay, between you 710 00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:58,719 Speaker 1: me and Eve, we we did we came up with that. 711 00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:03,239 Speaker 1: I know I got Jared of Subway arrested and boy 712 00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:08,879 Speaker 1: did I misjudge him? Uh So that was from Eve. Eve. Eve, 713 00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:10,839 Speaker 1: thanks a lot for that one. We always love hearing 714 00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:14,120 Speaker 1: new facts about old episodes, and you can send us 715 00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:18,040 Speaker 1: an email like Eve did to stuff podcast at iHeart 716 00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:23,760 Speaker 1: radio dot com. Stuff you Should Know is a production 717 00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:26,720 Speaker 1: of I heart Radio. For more podcasts my heart Radio, 718 00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:30,040 Speaker 1: visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 719 00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:31,400 Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.