WEBVTT - Sheath of Evidence 0:00:03.720 --> 0:00:08.399 Authram is really good at analyzing DNA that previously was 0:00:08.400 --> 0:00:10.440 thought to be unanalyzable. 0:00:11.160 --> 0:00:13.119 If they're not in the criminal database, they're not going 0:00:13.200 --> 0:00:15.720 to get caught, even though they leave tons of DNA behind, 0:00:15.880 --> 0:00:17.800 And now we can do that through FIG. 0:00:18.440 --> 0:00:21.840 I mean, what can you say? The technology that authram 0:00:21.960 --> 0:00:25.360 utilized in this case took it to a whole other level. 0:00:32.120 --> 0:00:36.280 This is the Idaho Massacre A production of KT Studios 0:00:36.520 --> 0:00:45.120 and iHeartRadio, Season three, episode nine, Sheath of Evidence. I'm 0:00:45.120 --> 0:00:48.720 Courtney Armstrong, a producer at KAT Studios, with Stephanie Leidecker, 0:00:49.120 --> 0:00:54.800 Alison Bankston, and Gabriel Castillo. One of the unsung heroes 0:00:54.880 --> 0:00:58.480 of the Brian Coberger case wasn't a detective, a judge, 0:00:58.560 --> 0:01:05.400 or even a prosecutor. It was a laboratory nestled in 0:01:05.480 --> 0:01:09.920 the Bucolic suburb of Woodlands, Texas. Sits Authrum, a company 0:01:09.920 --> 0:01:12.560 that has quickly become a world leader in forensic science. 0:01:13.240 --> 0:01:16.200 AUTHORAM is renowned for pioneering some of the most advanced 0:01:16.240 --> 0:01:21.880 techniques in forensic investigative genetic genealogy, also known as FIG 0:01:22.200 --> 0:01:27.120 or sometimes IgG. Initially, in this case, the FBI was 0:01:27.240 --> 0:01:29.680 enabled to find a match for the single source male 0:01:29.800 --> 0:01:33.360 DNA recovered from the ninth sheath found in Madison Mogan's 0:01:33.400 --> 0:01:37.680 bedroom using COTIS, the Combined DNA Index system which links 0:01:37.760 --> 0:01:43.120 DNA profiles to known offenders. At that point, investigators turned 0:01:43.200 --> 0:01:46.360 to AUTHRM, and it was this decision that blew the 0:01:46.560 --> 0:01:51.880 entire case wide open. On today's episode, where Spotlighting a 0:01:51.960 --> 0:01:57.040 podcast we all admire America's Crime Lab, We're joined by 0:01:57.080 --> 0:02:00.960 its host, journalist Alan Lance Lesser, to learn more about 0:02:01.000 --> 0:02:06.160 the groundbreaking work her show is covering. Aileen has the 0:02:06.200 --> 0:02:09.440 inside scoop on how authorm's cutting edge methods changed the 0:02:09.480 --> 0:02:12.680 game and how this lab helped identify the man who 0:02:12.720 --> 0:02:18.560 brutally murdered Madison Mogan, Kylie Gonsalvez, Xana Kernodle, and Ethan Chapin. 0:02:21.000 --> 0:02:24.760 Aileen's joined by Katie's Studio's producer, Alison Bankston. 0:02:28.760 --> 0:02:34.079 America's Crime Lab focuses on the intimate stories of victims 0:02:34.160 --> 0:02:37.640 and their families from some of the most heinous crimes 0:02:37.639 --> 0:02:40.760 in America and crimes that are being solved by a 0:02:40.800 --> 0:02:44.639 specific lab that exists just outside of Houston called Authrum 0:02:44.800 --> 0:02:48.639 that's using new DNA technology and I think basically Authrum 0:02:48.760 --> 0:02:51.200 the Lab wanted to get this information out there because 0:02:51.240 --> 0:02:54.360 the more people know about it, the more that detectives 0:02:54.400 --> 0:02:56.640 will know, hey, we can use this technology in this 0:02:56.720 --> 0:02:59.320 case where we simply can't figure out who left their 0:02:59.400 --> 0:03:02.160 DNA at a crime scene. And so it almost is 0:03:02.200 --> 0:03:05.720 a matter of spreading the word while also telling these 0:03:05.720 --> 0:03:06.959 really riveting stories. 0:03:07.639 --> 0:03:09.960 That's incredible, and I agree. I think it's great to 0:03:09.960 --> 0:03:12.040 get the word out on this amazing technology and to 0:03:12.120 --> 0:03:14.000 raise awareness about what it is and you know how 0:03:14.000 --> 0:03:16.600 effective it really can be. I understand it was started 0:03:16.639 --> 0:03:19.799 by Kristin and David Middleman, to geniuses in their own right, 0:03:19.960 --> 0:03:22.200 and you know you work closely with them. Can you 0:03:22.240 --> 0:03:24.040 tell me a little bit about who these two are. 0:03:24.560 --> 0:03:29.800 Kristin and David Middleman. They have been working in genetics 0:03:29.919 --> 0:03:33.880 for years. They actually met in grad school and started 0:03:33.919 --> 0:03:38.120 working together on projects. And they're actually also married and 0:03:38.480 --> 0:03:40.960 have a family, and they kind of spend all their 0:03:41.000 --> 0:03:44.120 time together and they're really devoted to this work. And 0:03:44.480 --> 0:03:48.560 essentially they had this background in genetics. I think David 0:03:48.680 --> 0:03:52.640 first started studying the genome project and then went on 0:03:52.760 --> 0:03:56.800 from there and they just felt that there was a 0:03:56.840 --> 0:04:00.480 hole that needed to be filled that they had ability 0:04:00.560 --> 0:04:03.680 to make this technology and not just study genetics, but 0:04:03.800 --> 0:04:07.480 actually use their knowledge of genetics to help people and 0:04:07.600 --> 0:04:12.000 families who are victims of horrible crimes. They're passionate about 0:04:12.000 --> 0:04:15.520 the fact that even there are so many unidentified human 0:04:15.600 --> 0:04:18.279 remains out there, you know, people who have passed away, 0:04:18.720 --> 0:04:21.400 and you know, to their families it's like they've disappeared. 0:04:21.440 --> 0:04:24.320 They don't know where they are, but the government hasn't 0:04:24.360 --> 0:04:26.920 even identified who they are, which is the first step 0:04:27.040 --> 0:04:29.920 in any investigation if it's a murder or something. And 0:04:30.040 --> 0:04:33.960 so basically they've made this their life's work and they 0:04:34.240 --> 0:04:37.560 literally are working all the time. Like I think I 0:04:37.640 --> 0:04:40.800 work hard, No, they work hard. They like live and 0:04:40.920 --> 0:04:44.480 breathe their science and just doing everything they can to 0:04:44.560 --> 0:04:48.279 make sure their science is at the most rigorous level. 0:04:48.360 --> 0:04:50.400 But then also they're trying to get the word out 0:04:50.400 --> 0:04:53.200 there and they're trying to help as many people as 0:04:53.240 --> 0:04:53.640 they can. 0:04:57.640 --> 0:05:02.640 Authroom specializes in forensic investing negative genetic genealogy, a cutting 0:05:02.720 --> 0:05:07.039 edge science that uses public genealogy databases to connect unknown 0:05:07.120 --> 0:05:14.200 DNA to profiles already uploaded by everyday people to help 0:05:14.240 --> 0:05:17.040 us break down what FIG is and how Authroom's approach 0:05:17.160 --> 0:05:20.160 differs from the traditional DNA testing done in most law 0:05:20.200 --> 0:05:24.520 enforcement labs. We brought in renowned expert doctor Gray Comikian. 0:05:25.920 --> 0:05:29.160 Doctor Hamikian is the founder of the Idaho Innocence Project 0:05:29.200 --> 0:05:33.599 and a former professor at Boise State University. He travels 0:05:33.640 --> 0:05:37.159 all over the world offering his forensic insight on complex 0:05:37.240 --> 0:05:42.360 criminal cases. He's joined by Katie Studios producer Alison Bankston. 0:05:46.200 --> 0:05:51.440 Investigative genetic genealogy is really a giant leap forward using 0:05:51.680 --> 0:05:53.960 some tools that have been around for a while. So 0:05:54.240 --> 0:05:57.039 the first tool, and I think the kind of novel 0:05:57.120 --> 0:06:01.840 thing that was brought into forensics, was the traditional genealogist 0:06:02.040 --> 0:06:05.279 folks who would work out a libraries and newspapers and 0:06:05.400 --> 0:06:10.200 court documents trying to construct family trees. And that was 0:06:10.279 --> 0:06:14.039 done before DNA was done, and was used in the 0:06:14.120 --> 0:06:18.400 courts principally to show who's related to who for the 0:06:18.400 --> 0:06:24.200 purposes of inheritance. Then with the advent of molecular biology 0:06:24.240 --> 0:06:28.000 and DNA sequencing in particular, we were able to combine 0:06:28.040 --> 0:06:32.480 two fields, my field, which is sequencing DNA and reading 0:06:32.560 --> 0:06:37.239 sequences or reading lengths of DNA, and these folks working 0:06:37.640 --> 0:06:41.799 newspapers and documents and all these great records from hundreds 0:06:41.800 --> 0:06:44.840 of years back. So what we're looking for is a 0:06:44.960 --> 0:06:48.080 long piece of DNA. We want to find the longest 0:06:48.120 --> 0:06:51.640 piece of DNA we can that the person of interest 0:06:51.720 --> 0:06:55.880 has in common with other people in the database. So 0:06:55.960 --> 0:06:58.760 if the person of interest is actually a piece of 0:06:58.839 --> 0:07:02.640 evidence from a crime seeing, the police will load that 0:07:02.880 --> 0:07:06.200 up into a database and treated as if it is 0:07:06.360 --> 0:07:09.520 a person looking for their true parents, you know, and 0:07:09.720 --> 0:07:12.480 orphan looking for their true parents, and the. 0:07:12.520 --> 0:07:14.520 DNA needs to be in a certain format, right you know. 0:07:14.560 --> 0:07:18.000 Most law enforcement agencies use the STR profile which stands 0:07:18.000 --> 0:07:20.880 for short tandem repeat and these types of profiles can 0:07:20.880 --> 0:07:23.720 be read through CODIS, whereas labs like AUTHROM, you know, 0:07:23.760 --> 0:07:26.560 they have the capability to convert these DNA samples into 0:07:26.560 --> 0:07:30.920 SNIP profiles which stands for single nuclear polymorphism profiles, and 0:07:31.000 --> 0:07:34.240 these types of SNIP profiles can be analyzed. 0:07:33.680 --> 0:07:35.080 Into genetic databases. 0:07:35.360 --> 0:07:37.160 Can you tell us a little bit about the differences 0:07:37.200 --> 0:07:39.960 between what most law enforcement crime labs use, which is 0:07:40.120 --> 0:07:44.320 STR and SNIP profiles which are needed for forensic investigative 0:07:44.360 --> 0:07:45.320 genetic genealogy. 0:07:46.320 --> 0:07:49.720 The chemistry is different, the machines are different, the software 0:07:49.800 --> 0:07:53.800 is different, and I think most importantly the mathematics is different. 0:07:54.280 --> 0:07:58.320 So in the case of the standard STRs, we're looking 0:07:58.360 --> 0:08:00.480 at the length of a piece of DNA, We're only 0:08:00.480 --> 0:08:02.640 going to look at about twenty three of those lengths, 0:08:02.680 --> 0:08:06.280 and it identifies a person. They allow us to differentiate 0:08:06.360 --> 0:08:08.080 from one person to another. 0:08:08.320 --> 0:08:10.040 Right, they can tell us if the person is male 0:08:10.120 --> 0:08:12.760 or female, and if it matches someone in codis, then great, 0:08:12.840 --> 0:08:15.280 you know there's your answer. But without a match, it's 0:08:15.360 --> 0:08:17.320 unfortunately not really going to get you anywhere. 0:08:18.240 --> 0:08:21.280 And the case of the snips, we're looking at hundreds 0:08:21.280 --> 0:08:25.119 of thousands of areas in someone's genome. There are three 0:08:25.160 --> 0:08:28.000 billion bases, so there's a lot of places you can choose, 0:08:28.040 --> 0:08:33.439 and we're reading the actual sequences the single nucleotide bases 0:08:33.600 --> 0:08:35.240 at particular areas. 0:08:35.760 --> 0:08:41.240 So it's a very much more information rich, detailed profile 0:08:41.360 --> 0:08:47.240 when you do a SNIP, and people are putting their 0:08:47.320 --> 0:08:49.559 DNA in these databases. 0:08:49.679 --> 0:08:51.880 Right and willingly, you know, in an effort to find 0:08:51.920 --> 0:08:55.160 more about their heritage. Sites like my family Tree, Jetmatch, 0:08:55.520 --> 0:08:57.320 my Heritage List goes. 0:08:57.120 --> 0:08:59.559 On for the types of sites these people are uploading to. 0:09:00.520 --> 0:09:03.720 And if we find a relative of someone who matches 0:09:03.760 --> 0:09:07.400 that the SNIP profile, police can investigate that family and 0:09:07.480 --> 0:09:11.080 then find the perpetrator. In this case. It's just a 0:09:11.080 --> 0:09:14.360 wonderful tool because when you have a great DNA fingerprint, 0:09:14.440 --> 0:09:16.360 and if they're not in the criminal database, they're not 0:09:16.360 --> 0:09:18.199 going to get caught, even though they leave tons of 0:09:18.280 --> 0:09:21.640 DNA behind. And now we can do that through fig 0:09:21.840 --> 0:09:27.480 forensic investigative genealogies because not those criminals, but their nice 0:09:27.559 --> 0:09:33.400 relatives have contributed DNA to public databases. And so yeah, 0:09:33.400 --> 0:09:37.920 it's very exciting. It opens up a whole new area. 0:09:38.200 --> 0:09:43.199 Here's journalist American Crime Lab host and authroom insider Alien 0:09:43.320 --> 0:09:44.160 Lance Lesser. 0:09:45.720 --> 0:09:48.880 One other really exciting piece of this is also the 0:09:48.960 --> 0:09:53.200 technology at AUTHRM is really good at analyzing DNA that 0:09:53.360 --> 0:09:58.080 previously was thought to be unanalyzable. But what's cool is, 0:09:58.400 --> 0:10:00.320 you know, at a crime scene, it's not like a 0:10:00.360 --> 0:10:02.640 clean swab of a mouth the way you might get 0:10:02.640 --> 0:10:05.960 when you're sending in your DNA. It's often contaminated, it's degraded, 0:10:06.080 --> 0:10:08.880 it's been sitting out in the snow, in the rain, 0:10:09.480 --> 0:10:12.600 animals have interacted with it. Maybe there's plant DNA mixed 0:10:12.679 --> 0:10:14.960 up with the DNA. Maybe the victims. DNA is mixed 0:10:15.040 --> 0:10:17.600 up with the DNA and so quite often you're getting 0:10:17.600 --> 0:10:21.080 a really not so good sample to analyze in a 0:10:21.120 --> 0:10:24.840 lot of cold cases. And so this technology can handle 0:10:25.240 --> 0:10:29.120 that more degraded DNA than other technology has been able 0:10:29.160 --> 0:10:30.400 to do previously. 0:10:31.000 --> 0:10:31.600 That's amazing. 0:10:31.679 --> 0:10:34.880 Yeah, I've definitely heard that their major cold case solving pioneers, 0:10:34.920 --> 0:10:37.800 which is just so impressive. What are some examples of 0:10:37.840 --> 0:10:40.480 cases that really defy the odds? I think before you'd 0:10:40.480 --> 0:10:42.520 told me a little bit about the Carla Walker case 0:10:42.600 --> 0:10:44.040 being particularly impressive. 0:10:44.120 --> 0:10:45.520 Can you tell us a little bit about that. 0:10:46.240 --> 0:10:50.280 The Carla Walker case happened years ago in nineteen seventy four, 0:10:50.559 --> 0:10:54.040 and Carla Walker was a seventeen year old girl. She 0:10:54.320 --> 0:10:58.480 was a high school cheerleader, very like spunky, energetic, and 0:10:58.800 --> 0:11:02.960 the night of her Valentine's Day dance, she disappeared. She 0:11:03.000 --> 0:11:06.720 went to the dance with her boyfriend, Rodney, and later 0:11:06.840 --> 0:11:10.760 that night Rodney would later say that they were in 0:11:10.800 --> 0:11:13.440 a bowling alley parking lot after the dance doing you 0:11:13.480 --> 0:11:15.800 know what teenagers do, kind of sitting in their car 0:11:15.880 --> 0:11:18.880 kissing a little bit. Suddenly the door opened and they're 0:11:18.920 --> 0:11:23.560 at gunpoint with either one or two men and Rodney 0:11:23.800 --> 0:11:26.800 he had just been beaten across the face, but when 0:11:26.800 --> 0:11:29.720 he woke up, Carla was gone, and three days later 0:11:29.840 --> 0:11:34.400 they found her body in a cattle culvert just outside 0:11:34.440 --> 0:11:37.880 of the Fort Worth area. Anyway, through all this they 0:11:37.960 --> 0:11:40.800 just don't get enough evidence and the case goes cold 0:11:41.240 --> 0:11:45.000 for years and years and years. I do think it's 0:11:45.040 --> 0:11:49.240 a case that stayed alive in that community, like people 0:11:49.280 --> 0:11:54.360 always wondered what happened to Carla after years and years. Eventually, 0:11:54.440 --> 0:11:58.360 of course, DNA technology comes on the scene and they 0:11:58.400 --> 0:12:03.320 do luckily have some DNA preserved on Carlo's clothing, and 0:12:03.720 --> 0:12:07.520 eventually authroom here is about the case, David and Kristen 0:12:08.440 --> 0:12:11.000 and they get involved and they say, we think we 0:12:11.080 --> 0:12:14.440 can help solve this case. They did find just a 0:12:14.559 --> 0:12:17.880 little bit more DNA on her dress. It was just 0:12:18.679 --> 0:12:23.040 I think it was four nanograms, which is like the tiniest, 0:12:23.280 --> 0:12:26.880 tiniest amount, like just a matter of a handful of cells. 0:12:26.920 --> 0:12:30.720 It was also DNA mixed with other DNA, so again 0:12:30.760 --> 0:12:33.840 it's and it's also degraded. At this point, it's forty 0:12:33.880 --> 0:12:37.400 six years later, so this DNA has also just been 0:12:37.440 --> 0:12:41.280 like sitting around gradually degrading for all those years, but 0:12:41.440 --> 0:12:45.000 AUTHROAM says, we're confident we can get a result. So 0:12:45.400 --> 0:12:49.480 they do the testing, and they get a result, and 0:12:49.840 --> 0:12:53.760 they have a name, Glenn Samuel McCurley junior, and so 0:12:54.840 --> 0:12:57.839 police go and find him. They ask for DNA squad, 0:12:57.840 --> 0:13:01.960 which he eventually does, and they're able to check if he, 0:13:02.200 --> 0:13:05.200 in fact is the person who left this DNA the 0:13:05.280 --> 0:13:08.520 seman on Carlos dress and it is a match. And 0:13:08.960 --> 0:13:13.559 eventually Glenn Samuel L. McCurley Junior confessed, that is. 0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:18.240 Seriously so impressive forty six years later, very degraded DNA, 0:13:18.480 --> 0:13:22.160 only four nanograms of it. AUTHORAM is truly changing the 0:13:22.160 --> 0:13:22.640 world here. 0:13:26.000 --> 0:13:28.080 Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in 0:13:28.080 --> 0:13:39.360 a moment. When the Idaho State Police Lab couldn't get 0:13:39.360 --> 0:13:41.680 a hit from COTIS on the DNA found on the 0:13:41.720 --> 0:13:45.600 knife sheath, investigators turned to David and Kristen Middleman at 0:13:45.640 --> 0:13:48.520 AUTHRM to see if they could process the sample using 0:13:48.559 --> 0:13:54.319 forensic investigative genetic genealogy, renowned for solving cold cases. This 0:13:54.440 --> 0:13:57.360 marked one of the very first active cases AUTHORM had 0:13:57.400 --> 0:14:02.240 been approached about. Here's journalist Alan Lance Lesser explaining how 0:14:02.280 --> 0:14:04.320 authoram handled this crucial sample. 0:14:07.480 --> 0:14:09.960 I think when they first were asked to come on, 0:14:10.280 --> 0:14:13.040 they were actually a little bit nervous, just because of 0:14:13.080 --> 0:14:16.040 how much attention was focused on it and because they 0:14:16.080 --> 0:14:19.360 typically have done kind of these older cold cases. But 0:14:19.760 --> 0:14:23.360 I think Kristen said when she thought about, we just 0:14:23.400 --> 0:14:26.480 have a duty to try to help. I mean, David 0:14:26.480 --> 0:14:28.960 and Kristen had a child at the time who was 0:14:29.000 --> 0:14:30.840 a sophomore in college, and they were like, what if 0:14:30.840 --> 0:14:33.920 something like this happened to our child, Like, we would 0:14:34.080 --> 0:14:37.280 absolutely want our technology to be used. So despite some 0:14:37.400 --> 0:14:40.040 kind of nerves around that, they jumped right in and 0:14:40.080 --> 0:14:43.760 they were able to get DNA from that sheath right 0:14:43.800 --> 0:14:45.920 at the snap, because you know, when you snap something, 0:14:45.960 --> 0:14:47.920 you like really have to pull at it. Because of that, 0:14:48.000 --> 0:14:50.560 there was actually quite a bit of DNA left behind. 0:14:50.800 --> 0:14:53.320 It was just like touch DNA. It was a very 0:14:53.360 --> 0:14:56.840 clean sample, which was comforting in that it wasn't mixed 0:14:56.880 --> 0:14:59.120 with other DNA and there was like a lot of it. 0:14:59.240 --> 0:15:01.960 So they run the tests, and it takes a little 0:15:01.960 --> 0:15:05.320 while to complete the tests, but initially the information they 0:15:05.320 --> 0:15:08.160 get from some kind of the preliminary testing is some 0:15:08.280 --> 0:15:13.600 basic kind of geographic information about the perpetrator. They find 0:15:13.800 --> 0:15:19.880 that it's someone likely of European heritage, of specifically Italian heritage, 0:15:20.320 --> 0:15:24.280 and that he probably is connected to kind of a 0:15:24.360 --> 0:15:29.160 multi generational family that lives in Pennsylvania. Actually, so they've 0:15:29.160 --> 0:15:32.560 got that kind of information going, which also is connected 0:15:32.560 --> 0:15:35.880 to the fact that the white Hyundai Elantra that's seen 0:15:36.120 --> 0:15:39.800 driving around the crime scene at around the time of 0:15:39.840 --> 0:15:43.040 the murders doesn't have a front license plate, which is 0:15:43.400 --> 0:15:46.120 common in Pennsylvania cars, and. 0:15:46.040 --> 0:15:48.440 That's such an important clue just even being able to 0:15:48.440 --> 0:15:50.600 whittle down the Lantras, you know, it was such a 0:15:50.600 --> 0:15:53.200 popular car. It still is. I think at some point 0:15:53.240 --> 0:15:55.640 I saw it was reported there are approximately twenty two 0:15:55.760 --> 0:15:57.640 thousand white Hondai Launtras. 0:15:57.320 --> 0:15:59.600 In the area. So if you can eliminate the vast. 0:15:59.480 --> 0:16:01.280 Majority of the i but only focus on ones with 0:16:01.360 --> 0:16:03.720 no front license plate, that's extremely helpful. 0:16:06.760 --> 0:16:10.840 That's that other connection there again to other evidence. Anyway, Eventually, 0:16:10.920 --> 0:16:14.160 once the testing is done, they eventually have a name, 0:16:14.440 --> 0:16:18.920 and it's Brian Coburger, and they call up the police 0:16:19.000 --> 0:16:22.080 and give them the name. And at first the police 0:16:22.120 --> 0:16:24.840 were so shocked they were almost thinking it was almost 0:16:24.880 --> 0:16:27.440 a joke. Because they had kept saying, give us a name, 0:16:27.560 --> 0:16:29.720 give us a name, that they almost thought it was 0:16:29.840 --> 0:16:33.440 like so ridiculous to get one specific name, because again, 0:16:33.560 --> 0:16:35.960 I feel like a lot of investigators are used to codis, 0:16:36.040 --> 0:16:37.640 where like, if you don't get a match there, you're 0:16:37.640 --> 0:16:39.960 not going to get a name. So then they really 0:16:40.400 --> 0:16:44.040 let it absorb it and started their investigation and from 0:16:44.080 --> 0:16:47.440 there we're able, you know, to track down Brian Coburger 0:16:47.520 --> 0:16:48.920 and continue it from there. 0:16:51.680 --> 0:16:54.800 And forensic investigative genetic genealogy is just a lead generator. 0:16:54.840 --> 0:16:56.000 It is a means to a lead. 0:16:56.160 --> 0:16:58.440 It does not directly implicate you, which is something the 0:16:58.440 --> 0:17:00.920 prosecution was really trying to hoe in on last winter 0:17:01.160 --> 0:17:03.000 when the defense was trying to get the DNA evans 0:17:03.000 --> 0:17:04.720 thrown out. You know, they were saying it violet at 0:17:04.760 --> 0:17:07.960 privacy laws, that it wasn't effective and in theory, you know, 0:17:08.040 --> 0:17:09.879 I guess it's kind of scary to think that if 0:17:09.920 --> 0:17:12.159 you have a relative that uploads their DNA to a 0:17:12.200 --> 0:17:14.919 heritage site, and let's say your DNA is at a 0:17:14.960 --> 0:17:17.120 crime scene, you know, all of a sudden, your relative 0:17:17.200 --> 0:17:19.399 has implicated you in a crime, and you know, that 0:17:19.840 --> 0:17:20.719 is kind of a scary thing. 0:17:20.720 --> 0:17:21.240 To think about. 0:17:21.800 --> 0:17:24.000 I do think it's interesting how that I think is 0:17:24.040 --> 0:17:26.320 the first thought a lot of people have is it's 0:17:26.400 --> 0:17:29.320 kind of scary, like almost fearing like, well, I be 0:17:29.560 --> 0:17:32.359 caught for something. But I think it's like a comforting 0:17:32.480 --> 0:17:36.000 reminder to note, like that you're not committing these crimes, 0:17:36.040 --> 0:17:37.520 so you know what I mean, Like I almost want 0:17:37.560 --> 0:17:40.080 to say that to listeners sometimes because it's kind of 0:17:40.119 --> 0:17:42.119 like this new technology, it feels kind of scary, like 0:17:42.160 --> 0:17:44.639 anyone can be identified, but it's it's kind of like 0:17:44.720 --> 0:17:47.400 any other piece of evidence. If someone leaves a piece 0:17:47.440 --> 0:17:50.920 of evidence at a crime scene and they've like murdered someone, yeah, 0:17:50.920 --> 0:17:53.320 I would hope that they can use the evidence that's 0:17:53.359 --> 0:17:55.600 there to find out who did it and to stop 0:17:55.640 --> 0:17:59.200 them from continuing. So it's funny how we're so immediately 0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:02.240 protective of our own DNA, which I think is totally 0:18:02.359 --> 0:18:05.359 valid and correct, but I think the way it's being 0:18:05.480 --> 0:18:10.000 used is still fairly private, and we're finding killers here. 0:18:12.119 --> 0:18:14.520 One hundred percent, and for a FIG match to even matter, 0:18:14.560 --> 0:18:16.880 you have to have some other implicated evidence to even 0:18:16.880 --> 0:18:19.159 get a warrant. In the Coburger case, you know he 0:18:19.240 --> 0:18:22.080 had the white HOUNDAI lantra. He matched the physical description 0:18:22.119 --> 0:18:24.680 of the perpetrator that Dylan Morton's had describes scene in 0:18:24.680 --> 0:18:26.359 the night of the murders. You now, there's just a 0:18:26.400 --> 0:18:28.560 lot of different things that are piling up against him. 0:18:28.920 --> 0:18:30.920 And on top of having other evidence that links you 0:18:31.000 --> 0:18:33.639 to the crime, investigators also have to confirm a fig 0:18:33.680 --> 0:18:37.720 match with traditionals STR DNA testing STR is the old 0:18:37.760 --> 0:18:40.919 gold standard trod and true for matches, whereas forendsic investigative 0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:42.680 genetic genealogy, it's newer. 0:18:44.600 --> 0:18:44.840 Yeah. 0:18:45.000 --> 0:18:48.560 Well, first, Brian Coberger had gone to his family's home 0:18:48.960 --> 0:18:52.520 in Pennsylvania, so they got some DNA from the garbage, 0:18:52.720 --> 0:18:56.919 which they had also seen Brian Coburger using gloves to 0:18:57.040 --> 0:18:59.960 take out garbage, which to me suggests he was being fair, 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:03.439 very careful about DNA. He had actually studied criminology. He 0:19:03.880 --> 0:19:06.120 really knew what he was doing. He was really covering 0:19:06.160 --> 0:19:09.560 his tracks. But they were able to test DNA and 0:19:09.720 --> 0:19:11.960 it was his father's DNA because he was at the 0:19:11.960 --> 0:19:14.080 family's house. But then from there they were able to say, 0:19:14.080 --> 0:19:16.520 it's this close of a match, let's get a warrant 0:19:16.600 --> 0:19:20.240 to get Brian's DNA, and they were able to then 0:19:20.640 --> 0:19:24.000 match it up using the traditional str testing. 0:19:24.240 --> 0:19:26.080 Right, which directly matched him to the DNA in the 0:19:26.119 --> 0:19:29.199 knife sheath. Authoram's work is so impressive here because they 0:19:29.280 --> 0:19:32.320 truly helped defind Brian Coberger quickly. Now he wasn't in 0:19:32.440 --> 0:19:34.560 codis So imagine if the sample from the NiFe sheet 0:19:34.600 --> 0:19:37.679 didn't get sent in for forensic investigative genetic genealogy. I 0:19:37.720 --> 0:19:39.639 think about that often, you know, I'm glad that the 0:19:39.720 --> 0:19:42.080 signs is improving so much that we can catch people 0:19:42.119 --> 0:19:43.359 faster and get them off the street. 0:19:47.560 --> 0:19:49.879 Many have wondered what would have happened in the Brian 0:19:49.920 --> 0:19:53.439 Coburger case if the single source male DNA found on 0:19:53.480 --> 0:20:00.520 the knife sheath was never identified, especially since Coburger the 0:20:00.600 --> 0:20:05.160 CODA system. We ask legal analyst and former homicide prosecutor 0:20:05.320 --> 0:20:08.400 Jarrett Farentino for his thoughts on how this case could 0:20:08.440 --> 0:20:12.480 have played out without Authorm's assistance. He's joined by KAT 0:20:12.640 --> 0:20:14.840 Studio's producer Alison Bankston. 0:20:17.240 --> 0:20:21.640 I mean, what can you say the technology that Authrum utilized, 0:20:22.000 --> 0:20:25.399 the IgG technology in this case took it to a 0:20:25.400 --> 0:20:29.360 whole other level. We don't know that Brian Colberger would 0:20:29.400 --> 0:20:33.240 have ever been ultimately charged, or that investigators would have 0:20:33.280 --> 0:20:37.400 gotten sufficient probable cause to discover all of the evidence 0:20:37.720 --> 0:20:40.960 that eventually was found against him. We do know that 0:20:41.119 --> 0:20:47.560 IgG technology expedited identifying Brian Coolberger as the likely killer here. 0:20:47.800 --> 0:20:52.520 It expedited the probable cause determinations and took him into 0:20:52.560 --> 0:20:56.320 custody before he can hurt someone else. And it's him 0:20:56.640 --> 0:21:00.320 one in quintillion chance. This guy with his DNA is 0:21:00.400 --> 0:21:04.040 also driving a white HONDAEI Landra, his cell phone's hitting 0:21:04.080 --> 0:21:08.239 on those towers, he matches the physical description. All of 0:21:08.280 --> 0:21:12.320 those things just came to pass tremendously as the case 0:21:12.440 --> 0:21:15.960 was put together. If you don't have the DNA, can 0:21:16.040 --> 0:21:19.560 you get there? Remember they weren't just challenging the DNA. 0:21:19.760 --> 0:21:22.400 They were saying, number one, it was touched DNA. There's 0:21:22.440 --> 0:21:25.919 an issue with that, but really it was IgG DNA. 0:21:26.160 --> 0:21:30.760 It was a process employed. It's a novel process. It's 0:21:30.840 --> 0:21:34.200 not enough to get to probable cause. And if it isn't, 0:21:34.359 --> 0:21:38.679 what do you got. You have a largely circumstantial case 0:21:38.720 --> 0:21:40.000 against Brian Colberger. 0:21:46.080 --> 0:21:48.359 Without the DNA, is there more of a chance for 0:21:48.440 --> 0:21:50.520 reasonable doubts? Like let's say you're on the jury or 0:21:50.560 --> 0:21:52.240 going through trial. I feel like it probably would have 0:21:52.240 --> 0:21:53.840 been less of a slam dunk, But how much less 0:21:53.840 --> 0:21:56.080 of a slam dunk could have done if the DNA 0:21:56.200 --> 0:21:56.600 wasn't here. 0:21:57.280 --> 0:21:59.439 If it all got in front of a jury, your 0:21:59.560 --> 0:22:03.159 job at that point is to explain the circumstance away, 0:22:03.359 --> 0:22:05.879 and it's much easier if there's not a one and 0:22:06.000 --> 0:22:09.920 quintillion chance it's not your guy. You know, you could say, hey, 0:22:10.040 --> 0:22:12.800 a lot of phones were in that tower, hundreds of phones, 0:22:12.840 --> 0:22:15.440 if not thousands, over those days, and a lot of 0:22:15.480 --> 0:22:18.600 people drive a white Hondai Lauantra. You don't have DNA. 0:22:18.920 --> 0:22:24.680 Brian never confessed there's no blood in his car. I've 0:22:24.720 --> 0:22:30.159 prosecuted a lot of solely circumstantial cases. I've secured convictions 0:22:30.160 --> 0:22:33.320 on those cases. They're tougher, don't get me wrong, But 0:22:33.440 --> 0:22:37.199 I think you could have still prosecuted Brian Colberger for 0:22:37.280 --> 0:22:41.280 this crime, but it would have been a very different process. 0:22:44.880 --> 0:22:46.560 Yeah, I feel like as a juror, and this is 0:22:46.560 --> 0:22:48.919 solely my opinion. I am definitely not an expert, but 0:22:48.960 --> 0:22:51.400 those points about the Launtra being such a popular car, 0:22:51.760 --> 0:22:53.399 that a cell phone was in the area, that he 0:22:53.480 --> 0:22:56.280 matches the description for me with the right experts up 0:22:56.280 --> 0:22:58.639 on the stand. All of that could have pretty easily 0:22:58.680 --> 0:23:02.400 been explained away, Like it's possible that without the DNA evidence, 0:23:02.480 --> 0:23:05.080 he would have gotten off or maybe never even gotten caught. 0:23:05.720 --> 0:23:10.600 And ultimately, remember it was the DNA that decision, the 0:23:10.600 --> 0:23:13.479 decision that it was coming in that led to the plague. 0:23:13.760 --> 0:23:19.199 So you cannot overstate the significance of Authorum's findings in 0:23:19.280 --> 0:23:21.480 this case. There's no doubt about it. 0:23:21.800 --> 0:23:24.520