1 00:00:03,720 --> 00:00:08,399 Speaker 1: Authram is really good at analyzing DNA that previously was 2 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:10,440 Speaker 1: thought to be unanalyzable. 3 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:13,119 Speaker 2: If they're not in the criminal database, they're not going 4 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 2: to get caught, even though they leave tons of DNA behind, 5 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:17,800 Speaker 2: And now we can do that through FIG. 6 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 3: I mean, what can you say? The technology that authram 7 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 3: utilized in this case took it to a whole other level. 8 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:36,280 Speaker 4: This is the Idaho Massacre A production of KT Studios 9 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 4: and iHeartRadio, Season three, episode nine, Sheath of Evidence. I'm 10 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 4: Courtney Armstrong, a producer at KAT Studios, with Stephanie Leidecker, 11 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 4: Alison Bankston, and Gabriel Castillo. One of the unsung heroes 12 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 4: of the Brian Coberger case wasn't a detective, a judge, 13 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:05,400 Speaker 4: or even a prosecutor. It was a laboratory nestled in 14 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 4: the Bucolic suburb of Woodlands, Texas. Sits Authrum, a company 15 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 4: that has quickly become a world leader in forensic science. 16 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 4: AUTHORAM is renowned for pioneering some of the most advanced 17 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 4: techniques in forensic investigative genetic genealogy, also known as FIG 18 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:27,120 Speaker 4: or sometimes IgG. Initially, in this case, the FBI was 19 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:29,680 Speaker 4: enabled to find a match for the single source male 20 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:33,360 Speaker 4: DNA recovered from the ninth sheath found in Madison Mogan's 21 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:37,680 Speaker 4: bedroom using COTIS, the Combined DNA Index system which links 22 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:43,120 Speaker 4: DNA profiles to known offenders. At that point, investigators turned 23 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 4: to AUTHRM, and it was this decision that blew the 24 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:51,880 Speaker 4: entire case wide open. On today's episode, where Spotlighting a 25 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 4: podcast we all admire America's Crime Lab, We're joined by 26 00:01:57,080 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 4: its host, journalist Alan Lance Lesser, to learn more about 27 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 4: the groundbreaking work her show is covering. Aileen has the 28 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 4: inside scoop on how authorm's cutting edge methods changed the 29 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 4: game and how this lab helped identify the man who 30 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 4: brutally murdered Madison Mogan, Kylie Gonsalvez, Xana Kernodle, and Ethan Chapin. 31 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 4: Aileen's joined by Katie's Studio's producer, Alison Bankston. 32 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:34,079 Speaker 1: America's Crime Lab focuses on the intimate stories of victims 33 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:37,640 Speaker 1: and their families from some of the most heinous crimes 34 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 1: in America and crimes that are being solved by a 35 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:44,639 Speaker 1: specific lab that exists just outside of Houston called Authrum 36 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:48,639 Speaker 1: that's using new DNA technology and I think basically Authrum 37 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:51,200 Speaker 1: the Lab wanted to get this information out there because 38 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:54,360 Speaker 1: the more people know about it, the more that detectives 39 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:56,640 Speaker 1: will know, hey, we can use this technology in this 40 00:02:56,720 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 1: case where we simply can't figure out who left their 41 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 1: DNA at a crime scene. And so it almost is 42 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 1: a matter of spreading the word while also telling these 43 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:06,959 Speaker 1: really riveting stories. 44 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:09,960 Speaker 5: That's incredible, and I agree. I think it's great to 45 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 5: get the word out on this amazing technology and to 46 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 5: raise awareness about what it is and you know how 47 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 5: effective it really can be. I understand it was started 48 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:19,799 Speaker 5: by Kristin and David Middleman, to geniuses in their own right, 49 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:22,200 Speaker 5: and you know you work closely with them. Can you 50 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 5: tell me a little bit about who these two are. 51 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:29,800 Speaker 1: Kristin and David Middleman. They have been working in genetics 52 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 1: for years. They actually met in grad school and started 53 00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:38,120 Speaker 1: working together on projects. And they're actually also married and 54 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 1: have a family, and they kind of spend all their 55 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:44,120 Speaker 1: time together and they're really devoted to this work. And 56 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 1: essentially they had this background in genetics. I think David 57 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 1: first started studying the genome project and then went on 58 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 1: from there and they just felt that there was a 59 00:03:56,840 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 1: hole that needed to be filled that they had ability 60 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 1: to make this technology and not just study genetics, but 61 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 1: actually use their knowledge of genetics to help people and 62 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 1: families who are victims of horrible crimes. They're passionate about 63 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 1: the fact that even there are so many unidentified human 64 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:18,279 Speaker 1: remains out there, you know, people who have passed away, 65 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 1: and you know, to their families it's like they've disappeared. 66 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 1: They don't know where they are, but the government hasn't 67 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:26,920 Speaker 1: even identified who they are, which is the first step 68 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:29,920 Speaker 1: in any investigation if it's a murder or something. And 69 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 1: so basically they've made this their life's work and they 70 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 1: literally are working all the time. Like I think I 71 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 1: work hard, No, they work hard. They like live and 72 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:44,480 Speaker 1: breathe their science and just doing everything they can to 73 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:48,279 Speaker 1: make sure their science is at the most rigorous level. 74 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:50,400 Speaker 1: But then also they're trying to get the word out 75 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 1: there and they're trying to help as many people as 76 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 1: they can. 77 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:02,640 Speaker 4: Authroom specializes in forensic investing negative genetic genealogy, a cutting 78 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:07,039 Speaker 4: edge science that uses public genealogy databases to connect unknown 79 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 4: DNA to profiles already uploaded by everyday people to help 80 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:17,040 Speaker 4: us break down what FIG is and how Authroom's approach 81 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:20,160 Speaker 4: differs from the traditional DNA testing done in most law 82 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 4: enforcement labs. We brought in renowned expert doctor Gray Comikian. 83 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:29,160 Speaker 4: Doctor Hamikian is the founder of the Idaho Innocence Project 84 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:33,599 Speaker 4: and a former professor at Boise State University. He travels 85 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:37,159 Speaker 4: all over the world offering his forensic insight on complex 86 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:42,360 Speaker 4: criminal cases. He's joined by Katie Studios producer Alison Bankston. 87 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 2: Investigative genetic genealogy is really a giant leap forward using 88 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 2: some tools that have been around for a while. So 89 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:57,039 Speaker 2: the first tool, and I think the kind of novel 90 00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:01,840 Speaker 2: thing that was brought into forensics, was the traditional genealogist 91 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:05,279 Speaker 2: folks who would work out a libraries and newspapers and 92 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 2: court documents trying to construct family trees. And that was 93 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:14,039 Speaker 2: done before DNA was done, and was used in the 94 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 2: courts principally to show who's related to who for the 95 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 2: purposes of inheritance. Then with the advent of molecular biology 96 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 2: and DNA sequencing in particular, we were able to combine 97 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:32,480 Speaker 2: two fields, my field, which is sequencing DNA and reading 98 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:37,239 Speaker 2: sequences or reading lengths of DNA, and these folks working 99 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:41,799 Speaker 2: newspapers and documents and all these great records from hundreds 100 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:44,840 Speaker 2: of years back. So what we're looking for is a 101 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 2: long piece of DNA. We want to find the longest 102 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 2: piece of DNA we can that the person of interest 103 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 2: has in common with other people in the database. So 104 00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 2: if the person of interest is actually a piece of 105 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 2: evidence from a crime seeing, the police will load that 106 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 2: up into a database and treated as if it is 107 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 2: a person looking for their true parents, you know, and 108 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:12,480 Speaker 2: orphan looking for their true parents, and the. 109 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:14,520 Speaker 5: DNA needs to be in a certain format, right you know. 110 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 5: Most law enforcement agencies use the STR profile which stands 111 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:20,880 Speaker 5: for short tandem repeat and these types of profiles can 112 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 5: be read through CODIS, whereas labs like AUTHROM, you know, 113 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:26,560 Speaker 5: they have the capability to convert these DNA samples into 114 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 5: SNIP profiles which stands for single nuclear polymorphism profiles, and 115 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 5: these types of SNIP profiles can be analyzed. 116 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 6: Into genetic databases. 117 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 5: Can you tell us a little bit about the differences 118 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 5: between what most law enforcement crime labs use, which is 119 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 5: STR and SNIP profiles which are needed for forensic investigative 120 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 5: genetic genealogy. 121 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 2: The chemistry is different, the machines are different, the software 122 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 2: is different, and I think most importantly the mathematics is different. 123 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 2: So in the case of the standard STRs, we're looking 124 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 2: at the length of a piece of DNA, We're only 125 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 2: going to look at about twenty three of those lengths, 126 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 2: and it identifies a person. They allow us to differentiate 127 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 2: from one person to another. 128 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 5: Right, they can tell us if the person is male 129 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 5: or female, and if it matches someone in codis, then great, 130 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 5: you know there's your answer. But without a match, it's 131 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:17,320 Speaker 5: unfortunately not really going to get you anywhere. 132 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:21,280 Speaker 2: And the case of the snips, we're looking at hundreds 133 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:25,119 Speaker 2: of thousands of areas in someone's genome. There are three 134 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:28,000 Speaker 2: billion bases, so there's a lot of places you can choose, 135 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:33,439 Speaker 2: and we're reading the actual sequences the single nucleotide bases 136 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 2: at particular areas. 137 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 7: So it's a very much more information rich, detailed profile 138 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 7: when you do a SNIP, and people are putting their 139 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:49,559 Speaker 7: DNA in these databases. 140 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 5: Right and willingly, you know, in an effort to find 141 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:55,160 Speaker 5: more about their heritage. Sites like my family Tree, Jetmatch, 142 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:57,320 Speaker 5: my Heritage List goes. 143 00:08:57,120 --> 00:08:59,559 Speaker 6: On for the types of sites these people are uploading to. 144 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:03,720 Speaker 2: And if we find a relative of someone who matches 145 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 2: that the SNIP profile, police can investigate that family and 146 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:11,080 Speaker 2: then find the perpetrator. In this case. It's just a 147 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 2: wonderful tool because when you have a great DNA fingerprint, 148 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 2: and if they're not in the criminal database, they're not 149 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:18,199 Speaker 2: going to get caught, even though they leave tons of 150 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 2: DNA behind. And now we can do that through fig 151 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:27,480 Speaker 2: forensic investigative genealogies because not those criminals, but their nice 152 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 2: relatives have contributed DNA to public databases. And so yeah, 153 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 2: it's very exciting. It opens up a whole new area. 154 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:43,199 Speaker 4: Here's journalist American Crime Lab host and authroom insider Alien 155 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 4: Lance Lesser. 156 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 1: One other really exciting piece of this is also the 157 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:53,200 Speaker 1: technology at AUTHRM is really good at analyzing DNA that 158 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:58,080 Speaker 1: previously was thought to be unanalyzable. But what's cool is, 159 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:00,320 Speaker 1: you know, at a crime scene, it's not like a 160 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 1: clean swab of a mouth the way you might get 161 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:05,960 Speaker 1: when you're sending in your DNA. It's often contaminated, it's degraded, 162 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 1: it's been sitting out in the snow, in the rain, 163 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:12,600 Speaker 1: animals have interacted with it. Maybe there's plant DNA mixed 164 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:14,960 Speaker 1: up with the DNA. Maybe the victims. DNA is mixed 165 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 1: up with the DNA and so quite often you're getting 166 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:21,080 Speaker 1: a really not so good sample to analyze in a 167 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:24,840 Speaker 1: lot of cold cases. And so this technology can handle 168 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:29,120 Speaker 1: that more degraded DNA than other technology has been able 169 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 1: to do previously. 170 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:31,600 Speaker 6: That's amazing. 171 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 5: Yeah, I've definitely heard that their major cold case solving pioneers, 172 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 5: which is just so impressive. What are some examples of 173 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 5: cases that really defy the odds? I think before you'd 174 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 5: told me a little bit about the Carla Walker case 175 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:44,040 Speaker 5: being particularly impressive. 176 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 6: Can you tell us a little bit about that. 177 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 1: The Carla Walker case happened years ago in nineteen seventy four, 178 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 1: and Carla Walker was a seventeen year old girl. She 179 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 1: was a high school cheerleader, very like spunky, energetic, and 180 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:02,960 Speaker 1: the night of her Valentine's Day dance, she disappeared. She 181 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:06,720 Speaker 1: went to the dance with her boyfriend, Rodney, and later 182 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 1: that night Rodney would later say that they were in 183 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:13,440 Speaker 1: a bowling alley parking lot after the dance doing you 184 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:15,800 Speaker 1: know what teenagers do, kind of sitting in their car 185 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 1: kissing a little bit. Suddenly the door opened and they're 186 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:23,560 Speaker 1: at gunpoint with either one or two men and Rodney 187 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 1: he had just been beaten across the face, but when 188 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:29,720 Speaker 1: he woke up, Carla was gone, and three days later 189 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:34,400 Speaker 1: they found her body in a cattle culvert just outside 190 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:37,880 Speaker 1: of the Fort Worth area. Anyway, through all this they 191 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 1: just don't get enough evidence and the case goes cold 192 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 1: for years and years and years. I do think it's 193 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 1: a case that stayed alive in that community, like people 194 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 1: always wondered what happened to Carla after years and years. Eventually, 195 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:58,360 Speaker 1: of course, DNA technology comes on the scene and they 196 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:03,320 Speaker 1: do luckily have some DNA preserved on Carlo's clothing, and 197 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 1: eventually authroom here is about the case, David and Kristen 198 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:11,000 Speaker 1: and they get involved and they say, we think we 199 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:14,440 Speaker 1: can help solve this case. They did find just a 200 00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:17,880 Speaker 1: little bit more DNA on her dress. It was just 201 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:23,040 Speaker 1: I think it was four nanograms, which is like the tiniest, 202 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:26,880 Speaker 1: tiniest amount, like just a matter of a handful of cells. 203 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 1: It was also DNA mixed with other DNA, so again 204 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:33,840 Speaker 1: it's and it's also degraded. At this point, it's forty 205 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:37,400 Speaker 1: six years later, so this DNA has also just been 206 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:41,280 Speaker 1: like sitting around gradually degrading for all those years, but 207 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:45,000 Speaker 1: AUTHROAM says, we're confident we can get a result. So 208 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 1: they do the testing, and they get a result, and 209 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:53,760 Speaker 1: they have a name, Glenn Samuel McCurley junior, and so 210 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:57,839 Speaker 1: police go and find him. They ask for DNA squad, 211 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:01,960 Speaker 1: which he eventually does, and they're able to check if he, 212 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:05,200 Speaker 1: in fact is the person who left this DNA the 213 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:08,520 Speaker 1: seman on Carlos dress and it is a match. And 214 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:13,559 Speaker 1: eventually Glenn Samuel L. McCurley Junior confessed, that is. 215 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:18,240 Speaker 5: Seriously so impressive forty six years later, very degraded DNA, 216 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:22,160 Speaker 5: only four nanograms of it. AUTHORAM is truly changing the 217 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 5: world here. 218 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:28,080 Speaker 4: Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in 219 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 4: a moment. When the Idaho State Police Lab couldn't get 220 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:41,680 Speaker 4: a hit from COTIS on the DNA found on the 221 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 4: knife sheath, investigators turned to David and Kristen Middleman at 222 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 4: AUTHRM to see if they could process the sample using 223 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:54,319 Speaker 4: forensic investigative genetic genealogy, renowned for solving cold cases. This 224 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:57,360 Speaker 4: marked one of the very first active cases AUTHORM had 225 00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:02,240 Speaker 4: been approached about. Here's journalist Alan Lance Lesser explaining how 226 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:04,320 Speaker 4: authoram handled this crucial sample. 227 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:09,960 Speaker 1: I think when they first were asked to come on, 228 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:13,040 Speaker 1: they were actually a little bit nervous, just because of 229 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 1: how much attention was focused on it and because they 230 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 1: typically have done kind of these older cold cases. But 231 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 1: I think Kristen said when she thought about, we just 232 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 1: have a duty to try to help. I mean, David 233 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 1: and Kristen had a child at the time who was 234 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:30,840 Speaker 1: a sophomore in college, and they were like, what if 235 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 1: something like this happened to our child, Like, we would 236 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 1: absolutely want our technology to be used. So despite some 237 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 1: kind of nerves around that, they jumped right in and 238 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:43,760 Speaker 1: they were able to get DNA from that sheath right 239 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:45,920 Speaker 1: at the snap, because you know, when you snap something, 240 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 1: you like really have to pull at it. Because of that, 241 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:50,560 Speaker 1: there was actually quite a bit of DNA left behind. 242 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 1: It was just like touch DNA. It was a very 243 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:56,840 Speaker 1: clean sample, which was comforting in that it wasn't mixed 244 00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:59,120 Speaker 1: with other DNA and there was like a lot of it. 245 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:01,960 Speaker 1: So they run the tests, and it takes a little 246 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 1: while to complete the tests, but initially the information they 247 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 1: get from some kind of the preliminary testing is some 248 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 1: basic kind of geographic information about the perpetrator. They find 249 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 1: that it's someone likely of European heritage, of specifically Italian heritage, 250 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 1: and that he probably is connected to kind of a 251 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:29,160 Speaker 1: multi generational family that lives in Pennsylvania. Actually, so they've 252 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:32,560 Speaker 1: got that kind of information going, which also is connected 253 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:35,880 Speaker 1: to the fact that the white Hyundai Elantra that's seen 254 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 1: driving around the crime scene at around the time of 255 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 1: the murders doesn't have a front license plate, which is 256 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 1: common in Pennsylvania cars, and. 257 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 5: That's such an important clue just even being able to 258 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:50,600 Speaker 5: whittle down the Lantras, you know, it was such a 259 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 5: popular car. It still is. I think at some point 260 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 5: I saw it was reported there are approximately twenty two 261 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 5: thousand white Hondai Launtras. 262 00:15:57,320 --> 00:15:59,600 Speaker 6: In the area. So if you can eliminate the vast. 263 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 5: Majority of the i but only focus on ones with 264 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:03,720 Speaker 5: no front license plate, that's extremely helpful. 265 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 1: That's that other connection there again to other evidence. Anyway, Eventually, 266 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 1: once the testing is done, they eventually have a name, 267 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 1: and it's Brian Coburger, and they call up the police 268 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:22,080 Speaker 1: and give them the name. And at first the police 269 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 1: were so shocked they were almost thinking it was almost 270 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 1: a joke. Because they had kept saying, give us a name, 271 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:29,720 Speaker 1: give us a name, that they almost thought it was 272 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:33,440 Speaker 1: like so ridiculous to get one specific name, because again, 273 00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 1: I feel like a lot of investigators are used to codis, 274 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 1: where like, if you don't get a match there, you're 275 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 1: not going to get a name. So then they really 276 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 1: let it absorb it and started their investigation and from 277 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 1: there we're able, you know, to track down Brian Coburger 278 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 1: and continue it from there. 279 00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:54,800 Speaker 5: And forensic investigative genetic genealogy is just a lead generator. 280 00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 6: It is a means to a lead. 281 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:58,440 Speaker 5: It does not directly implicate you, which is something the 282 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:00,920 Speaker 5: prosecution was really trying to hoe in on last winter 283 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:03,000 Speaker 5: when the defense was trying to get the DNA evans 284 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:04,720 Speaker 5: thrown out. You know, they were saying it violet at 285 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:07,960 Speaker 5: privacy laws, that it wasn't effective and in theory, you know, 286 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:09,879 Speaker 5: I guess it's kind of scary to think that if 287 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:12,159 Speaker 5: you have a relative that uploads their DNA to a 288 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:14,919 Speaker 5: heritage site, and let's say your DNA is at a 289 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:17,120 Speaker 5: crime scene, you know, all of a sudden, your relative 290 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:19,399 Speaker 5: has implicated you in a crime, and you know, that 291 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:20,719 Speaker 5: is kind of a scary thing. 292 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:21,240 Speaker 6: To think about. 293 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 1: I do think it's interesting how that I think is 294 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 1: the first thought a lot of people have is it's 295 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 1: kind of scary, like almost fearing like, well, I be 296 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:32,359 Speaker 1: caught for something. But I think it's like a comforting 297 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 1: reminder to note, like that you're not committing these crimes, 298 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 1: so you know what I mean, Like I almost want 299 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 1: to say that to listeners sometimes because it's kind of 300 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:42,119 Speaker 1: like this new technology, it feels kind of scary, like 301 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:44,639 Speaker 1: anyone can be identified, but it's it's kind of like 302 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:47,400 Speaker 1: any other piece of evidence. If someone leaves a piece 303 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:50,920 Speaker 1: of evidence at a crime scene and they've like murdered someone, yeah, 304 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 1: I would hope that they can use the evidence that's 305 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 1: there to find out who did it and to stop 306 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:59,200 Speaker 1: them from continuing. So it's funny how we're so immediately 307 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:02,240 Speaker 1: protective of our own DNA, which I think is totally 308 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:05,359 Speaker 1: valid and correct, but I think the way it's being 309 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:10,000 Speaker 1: used is still fairly private, and we're finding killers here. 310 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 5: One hundred percent, and for a FIG match to even matter, 311 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:16,880 Speaker 5: you have to have some other implicated evidence to even 312 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:19,159 Speaker 5: get a warrant. In the Coburger case, you know he 313 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 5: had the white HOUNDAI lantra. He matched the physical description 314 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:24,680 Speaker 5: of the perpetrator that Dylan Morton's had describes scene in 315 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:26,359 Speaker 5: the night of the murders. You now, there's just a 316 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 5: lot of different things that are piling up against him. 317 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:30,920 Speaker 5: And on top of having other evidence that links you 318 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:33,639 Speaker 5: to the crime, investigators also have to confirm a fig 319 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 5: match with traditionals STR DNA testing STR is the old 320 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:40,919 Speaker 5: gold standard trod and true for matches, whereas forendsic investigative 321 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:42,680 Speaker 5: genetic genealogy, it's newer. 322 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 2: Yeah. 323 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 1: Well, first, Brian Coberger had gone to his family's home 324 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 1: in Pennsylvania, so they got some DNA from the garbage, 325 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:56,919 Speaker 1: which they had also seen Brian Coburger using gloves to 326 00:18:57,040 --> 00:18:59,960 Speaker 1: take out garbage, which to me suggests he was being fair, 327 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:03,439 Speaker 1: very careful about DNA. He had actually studied criminology. He 328 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:06,120 Speaker 1: really knew what he was doing. He was really covering 329 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:09,560 Speaker 1: his tracks. But they were able to test DNA and 330 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:11,960 Speaker 1: it was his father's DNA because he was at the 331 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 1: family's house. But then from there they were able to say, 332 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 1: it's this close of a match, let's get a warrant 333 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:20,240 Speaker 1: to get Brian's DNA, and they were able to then 334 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 1: match it up using the traditional str testing. 335 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 5: Right, which directly matched him to the DNA in the 336 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:29,199 Speaker 5: knife sheath. Authoram's work is so impressive here because they 337 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 5: truly helped defind Brian Coberger quickly. Now he wasn't in 338 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 5: codis So imagine if the sample from the NiFe sheet 339 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:37,679 Speaker 5: didn't get sent in for forensic investigative genetic genealogy. I 340 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:39,639 Speaker 5: think about that often, you know, I'm glad that the 341 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 5: signs is improving so much that we can catch people 342 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:43,359 Speaker 5: faster and get them off the street. 343 00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:49,879 Speaker 4: Many have wondered what would have happened in the Brian 344 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:53,439 Speaker 4: Coburger case if the single source male DNA found on 345 00:19:53,480 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 4: the knife sheath was never identified, especially since Coburger the 346 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:05,160 Speaker 4: CODA system. We ask legal analyst and former homicide prosecutor 347 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:08,400 Speaker 4: Jarrett Farentino for his thoughts on how this case could 348 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:12,480 Speaker 4: have played out without Authorm's assistance. He's joined by KAT 349 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 4: Studio's producer Alison Bankston. 350 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:21,640 Speaker 3: I mean, what can you say the technology that Authrum utilized, 351 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:25,399 Speaker 3: the IgG technology in this case took it to a 352 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:29,360 Speaker 3: whole other level. We don't know that Brian Colberger would 353 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:33,240 Speaker 3: have ever been ultimately charged, or that investigators would have 354 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:37,400 Speaker 3: gotten sufficient probable cause to discover all of the evidence 355 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 3: that eventually was found against him. We do know that 356 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:47,560 Speaker 3: IgG technology expedited identifying Brian Coolberger as the likely killer here. 357 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:52,520 Speaker 3: It expedited the probable cause determinations and took him into 358 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 3: custody before he can hurt someone else. And it's him 359 00:20:56,640 --> 00:21:00,320 Speaker 3: one in quintillion chance. This guy with his DNA is 360 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 3: also driving a white HONDAEI Landra, his cell phone's hitting 361 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:08,239 Speaker 3: on those towers, he matches the physical description. All of 362 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:12,320 Speaker 3: those things just came to pass tremendously as the case 363 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:15,960 Speaker 3: was put together. If you don't have the DNA, can 364 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:19,560 Speaker 3: you get there? Remember they weren't just challenging the DNA. 365 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:22,400 Speaker 3: They were saying, number one, it was touched DNA. There's 366 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:25,919 Speaker 3: an issue with that, but really it was IgG DNA. 367 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 3: It was a process employed. It's a novel process. It's 368 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:34,200 Speaker 3: not enough to get to probable cause. And if it isn't, 369 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:38,679 Speaker 3: what do you got. You have a largely circumstantial case 370 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 3: against Brian Colberger. 371 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:48,359 Speaker 5: Without the DNA, is there more of a chance for 372 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:50,520 Speaker 5: reasonable doubts? Like let's say you're on the jury or 373 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:52,240 Speaker 5: going through trial. I feel like it probably would have 374 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:53,840 Speaker 5: been less of a slam dunk, But how much less 375 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:56,080 Speaker 5: of a slam dunk could have done if the DNA 376 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 5: wasn't here. 377 00:21:57,280 --> 00:21:59,439 Speaker 3: If it all got in front of a jury, your 378 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:03,159 Speaker 3: job at that point is to explain the circumstance away, 379 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:05,879 Speaker 3: and it's much easier if there's not a one and 380 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:09,920 Speaker 3: quintillion chance it's not your guy. You know, you could say, hey, 381 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 3: a lot of phones were in that tower, hundreds of phones, 382 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:15,440 Speaker 3: if not thousands, over those days, and a lot of 383 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 3: people drive a white Hondai Lauantra. You don't have DNA. 384 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:24,680 Speaker 3: Brian never confessed there's no blood in his car. I've 385 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:30,159 Speaker 3: prosecuted a lot of solely circumstantial cases. I've secured convictions 386 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 3: on those cases. They're tougher, don't get me wrong, But 387 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:37,199 Speaker 3: I think you could have still prosecuted Brian Colberger for 388 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 3: this crime, but it would have been a very different process. 389 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 5: Yeah, I feel like as a juror, and this is 390 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:48,919 Speaker 5: solely my opinion. I am definitely not an expert, but 391 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:51,400 Speaker 5: those points about the Launtra being such a popular car, 392 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:53,399 Speaker 5: that a cell phone was in the area, that he 393 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:56,280 Speaker 5: matches the description for me with the right experts up 394 00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:58,639 Speaker 5: on the stand. All of that could have pretty easily 395 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:02,400 Speaker 5: been explained away, Like it's possible that without the DNA evidence, 396 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:05,080 Speaker 5: he would have gotten off or maybe never even gotten caught. 397 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:10,600 Speaker 3: And ultimately, remember it was the DNA that decision, the 398 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,479 Speaker 3: decision that it was coming in that led to the plague. 399 00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:19,199 Speaker 3: So you cannot overstate the significance of Authorum's findings in 400 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:21,480 Speaker 3: this case. There's no doubt about it. 401 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:24,520 Speaker 5: This was authram's first live case, you know, active case 402 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:27,880 Speaker 5: for the used forensic investigative genealogy. Do you think courtrooms 403 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 5: will start seeing more of this since you know there 404 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:31,560 Speaker 5: was success in the Coburger case. 405 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:35,680 Speaker 3: Absolutely so. When you have a case of this magnitude 406 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:40,800 Speaker 3: covered worldwide and a technology stands the rigors of the 407 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 3: challenges that it was met with in Idaho by Coburger's 408 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 3: defense team, it is a green light to prosecutors across 409 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:52,639 Speaker 3: the country. The law is based on other cases and 410 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:56,239 Speaker 3: the ability to argue it. Once that first impression is 411 00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:59,359 Speaker 3: made and the decision is made, that case will be 412 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 3: utilized across the country, maybe the world to argue IgG 413 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:08,199 Speaker 3: technology is sound and it stands the tests that are 414 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:10,920 Speaker 3: applied in corporate so yes, I think it will have 415 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:16,040 Speaker 3: a very, very big impact on convictions solving investigations. But 416 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:18,640 Speaker 3: at the same time, I think it's worth noting this 417 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:21,800 Speaker 3: type of technology has also led to the solving of 418 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:26,439 Speaker 3: cold cases. It's also led to the exoneration of people 419 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 3: that have been wrongfully convicted. So it is a powerful 420 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:32,680 Speaker 3: tool to getting to the truth, whatever that is. 421 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 4: Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in 422 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:51,480 Speaker 4: a moment. Authroom Laboratories in the Woodlands, Texas, is revolutionizing 423 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:55,160 Speaker 4: how DNA evidence is used in courtrooms. What once began 424 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 4: as a tool for genealogists tracing family heritage is now 425 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:02,320 Speaker 4: helping law enforcement a identify criminals with no prior records 426 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:08,520 Speaker 4: like never before. Without Authram, Justice for Madison, Mogen Kallie Gonzalvez, 427 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:13,240 Speaker 4: Xana Kernodle, and Ethan Shapin may have never come. It's 428 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:17,240 Speaker 4: a groundbreaking company that we're proud to feature. Joining us 429 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:21,240 Speaker 4: once again is journalist, authoram Insider and host of America's 430 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:25,600 Speaker 4: Crime Lab, Alan Lance Lesser, along with Katie's Studio's producer 431 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:26,880 Speaker 4: Alison Bankston. 432 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 1: What's kind of cool to think about, but someone like 433 00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 1: Brian Coberger, who had again studied criminology, had even surveyed 434 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:40,400 Speaker 1: criminals about how they committed their crimes, presumably to get 435 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:43,840 Speaker 1: information for how to commit a crime successfully. For him, 436 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:46,680 Speaker 1: at least, that's what where my mind goes that why 437 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,480 Speaker 1: he was doing that. And to think he was so careful, 438 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:52,320 Speaker 1: I mean, he really didn't leave other evidence at the 439 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:55,000 Speaker 1: crime scene. It really was this knife sheath. And to 440 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 1: think he was so careful and knowledgeable and yet he 441 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:01,879 Speaker 1: still did lead DNA. I almost feel like it's a 442 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:05,560 Speaker 1: psa to anyone considering committing a violent crime like in 443 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:08,200 Speaker 1: today's world, You're not going to get away with it. 444 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:10,560 Speaker 6: No, you're not not, even if you don't have a 445 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:11,320 Speaker 6: criminal record. 446 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:15,240 Speaker 1: And that's a comforting thing, a good message for people 447 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:18,639 Speaker 1: to know that even just having society know that it 448 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:21,560 Speaker 1: might reduce the amount of crimes like this. 449 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:25,360 Speaker 5: Throughout working on this then this podcast with off from 450 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:27,960 Speaker 5: you know, you kind of have a really cool in 451 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 5: here with this most amazing company. 452 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:32,360 Speaker 6: What have you personally learned working so. 453 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:35,480 Speaker 5: Closely with them and establishing this relationship with them. 454 00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:39,480 Speaker 1: I've just learned so much more about the technology. And 455 00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:42,560 Speaker 1: also if people listen to our podcast America's Crime Lab, 456 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,760 Speaker 1: they will learn a lot more too, but also in 457 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:49,400 Speaker 1: an engaging way, learning about these cases and these stories 458 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 1: and these people, and also being victim centered in that 459 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:55,400 Speaker 1: we talk to a lot of family members and relatives, 460 00:26:55,680 --> 00:27:00,160 Speaker 1: close friends. And I think it's useful as I consume 461 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:03,439 Speaker 1: true crime media or you know, learn about cases in 462 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:06,080 Speaker 1: my environment to understand some of this technology and how 463 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:08,199 Speaker 1: can be used. And I think I've just been so 464 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:11,439 Speaker 1: struck by their process and it's kind of almost like 465 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:14,200 Speaker 1: given me hope in science, and I personally have been 466 00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:18,320 Speaker 1: inspired by also their devotion to the work and how 467 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,199 Speaker 1: so many people at AUTHRAM do have some kind of 468 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:24,840 Speaker 1: personal connection, maybe they had a family member who experienced 469 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 1: a violet crime or just have some kind of personal 470 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:30,480 Speaker 1: stake in these crimes. So I also think authrom is 471 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:34,879 Speaker 1: just full of people who are very committed to this mission. Really, 472 00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:38,439 Speaker 1: I feel like our podcast focuses on so many dark things, 473 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:41,119 Speaker 1: as I'm sure you're used to as well, But I 474 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:44,480 Speaker 1: think sometimes in that darkness you see these stories of 475 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,760 Speaker 1: human resilience, of people working for cases of people they 476 00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:50,160 Speaker 1: don't even know, and being so determined, And I think 477 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,240 Speaker 1: that is also very uplifting to me on a personal level. 478 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:54,119 Speaker 1: Working on this show. 479 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:57,280 Speaker 5: What else can we expect from America's Crime Lab in 480 00:27:57,280 --> 00:27:59,040 Speaker 5: the future, What can we look forward to as you 481 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:00,640 Speaker 5: guys continue to make podcast. 482 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:05,280 Speaker 1: Well, we're still coming out with episodes, so they're coming 483 00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:07,800 Speaker 1: out every week. But we're just excited to be getting 484 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,760 Speaker 1: these stories out there and to be able to have 485 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:13,919 Speaker 1: this unique relationship with Authorm where we're really getting the 486 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:16,560 Speaker 1: insider view of like how does the lab work, how 487 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:19,120 Speaker 1: do they work these cases? And basically it's a look 488 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:22,560 Speaker 1: into authoram in a way that I think hasn't really 489 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:25,680 Speaker 1: happened before, and it's really exciting stuff. 490 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 4: You can find Dalen's podcast, American Crime Lab on the 491 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:35,440 Speaker 4: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts, 492 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 4: and you can learn more about authorm's impressive work at 493 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:47,920 Speaker 4: authrum dot com. That's ot h r AM dot com. 494 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:52,040 Speaker 4: More on that next time. For more information on the 495 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:55,600 Speaker 4: case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at kt 496 00:28:55,960 --> 00:29:00,560 Speaker 4: Underscore Studios. The Idaho Massacre is produced by Stephanie Leideger, 497 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:06,800 Speaker 4: Alison Bankston, Gabriel Castillo, and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and 498 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:11,320 Speaker 4: sound design by Jeff Toois, Music by Jared Aston. The 499 00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:14,720 Speaker 4: Idaho Masacre is a production of Katie's Studios and iHeartRadio. 500 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:19,800 Speaker 4: For more podcasts like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 501 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 4: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.