1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,080 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Missed in History Class from how 2 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:18,919 Speaker 1: I'm Tracy Wilson. I'm Holly fry So Holly. When you 4 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:21,759 Speaker 1: took uh like U S history classes that talked about 5 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:24,960 Speaker 1: the Civil Rights movement, do you feel like a lot 6 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: of the focus was on the things that African Americans 7 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:32,760 Speaker 1: were not allowed to do? So like almost the entigrity 8 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:36,239 Speaker 1: of the focus, so like being barred from the schools, 9 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:39,839 Speaker 1: in the restrooms and other whites only places, being kept 10 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:44,200 Speaker 1: from voting, being denied legal protections that white people really 11 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:46,320 Speaker 1: took for granted. Like all of that kind of stuff 12 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:50,000 Speaker 1: feels like a big part of the context for the 13 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 1: Civil Rights movement in history classes in the United States, 14 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 1: for sure. So there's actually a whole other part of 15 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:00,040 Speaker 1: that equation, which is the things that only Africa and 16 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 1: Americans were allowed to do. There were jobs that used 17 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 1: an entirely black workforce as a way to subjugate people 18 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:11,679 Speaker 1: and maintain a racial status quo. I only became aware 19 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:15,399 Speaker 1: that this was a thing, like as an adult, Yeah, 20 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:18,520 Speaker 1: me too. I definitely do not recall ever having that 21 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 1: as part of a class well, and even having having 22 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:26,600 Speaker 1: taken uh in an entire class on social movements, a 23 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 1: third of which was devoted to the civil rights movement 24 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 1: in college. I don't think that's something that we really 25 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 1: got into UM. But today we're going to talk about 26 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 1: one of these jobs, which was the sleeping car porter. 27 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 1: In the nineteen twenties, sleeping car porters unionized and they 28 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:47,319 Speaker 1: successfully fought for better pay and working conditions. Their union, 29 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:50,480 Speaker 1: which was the Brotherhood of Sleeping Car Porters, became the 30 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 1: first African American labor union to be recognized by the 31 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 1: American Federation of the Labor. While the union started out 32 00:01:57,080 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 1: campaigning for more money and better treatment for its members, 33 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:04,440 Speaker 1: it became an important force for social change during the 34 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 1: American Civil Rights movement. But before we talk about the 35 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:10,679 Speaker 1: porters and their unions specifically, we need to just talk 36 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 1: a little bit about trains, because it's important to contextualize 37 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:16,960 Speaker 1: where all this was going on. So, by the end 38 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 1: of the nineteenth century, the railroad was basically the easiest 39 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:23,640 Speaker 1: and fastest way to travel long distances in the United States. 40 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:27,880 Speaker 1: But until an industrialist named George Pullman put his stamp 41 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 1: on the sleeping car, the trip wasn't really comfortable, particularly 42 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 1: if you had to travel overnight. Uh that's actually still 43 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 1: true today. Yes, I've made multiple trips by train from 44 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 1: Atlanta to Washington, d C. That we're all overnight and 45 00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 1: it's not comfortable. I had a sleeping car one time, 46 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 1: and that was marginally more comfortable, but still not the 47 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 1: like total luxury experience that it became uh in in 48 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 1: the nineteenth cent So, the Pullman Company put out its 49 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:05,800 Speaker 1: first sleeper car in eighteen sixty five. These cars featured 50 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:10,799 Speaker 1: really beautiful and comfortable furnishings. There were berths that converted 51 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:13,680 Speaker 1: from seats and folded down from the walls. But what 52 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 1: really set Pullman cars apart from the other sleeper cars 53 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 1: on the market was their staff of porters, the first 54 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 1: of whom was hired in eighteen sixty seven. Railroad lines 55 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 1: who wanted to have Pullman cars as part of their 56 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 1: trains leased them from the Pulling Company, and a staff 57 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:32,959 Speaker 1: of maids and porters came along as part of the package. 58 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 1: And the porter's work was really what made the Pullman 59 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 1: cars a true luxury experience. They had an exceptional reputation 60 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 1: for quality and service. The porters would make down the 61 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 1: beds at night and they would make them back up 62 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 1: again in the morning. They would brush travelers coats, they 63 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 1: would polish shoes, They served meals and beverages, and basically 64 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 1: attended to every need a passenger might have throughout their journey, 65 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 1: including looking after and clear eating up after sick passengers 66 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 1: like They took care of people in every possible way, 67 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 1: and porters were even responsible for the safety and security 68 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:12,400 Speaker 1: of passengers, including children, And for almost a hundred years, 69 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:16,839 Speaker 1: they were also exclusively African American. Many of the earliest 70 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:20,359 Speaker 1: Pullman porters were recently freed slaves, and as the years 71 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 1: wore on, the Pullman Company made a concerted effort of 72 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 1: hiring most of its porters out of the Deep South. 73 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 1: Once hired, the workers mostly worked out of northern railroad 74 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:35,360 Speaker 1: hub cities, especially Chicago, and George Pullman got a great 75 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 1: deal of praise at the time for employing so many 76 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 1: black workers, but his motives were not philanthropic, and he 77 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 1: did not try to disguise that fact. He chose African 78 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 1: American labor for his sleeping cars because he knew he 79 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 1: would get a workforce that was grateful to have a 80 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:52,920 Speaker 1: job and would be willing to accept low pay. And 81 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 1: we're grueling hours. He expected newly freed slaves to be 82 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:01,279 Speaker 1: used to being subservient to white people, and the white 83 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:04,840 Speaker 1: passengers were also accustomed to having African Americans around as 84 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 1: a servant class. Uh So, African Americans, for context, could 85 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:13,160 Speaker 1: ride these trains, but they had to ride in segregated cars, 86 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:16,719 Speaker 1: and they certainly were not allowed to ride in sleeper cars. Yes, 87 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 1: so it was basically an exclusively black workforce waiting on 88 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:27,360 Speaker 1: a almost exclusively uh white customer base. By the nineteen twenties, 89 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 1: more than twenty thousand African American men were employed as 90 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:35,239 Speaker 1: pullman porters and other train personnel. The Pullman Company became 91 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:39,320 Speaker 1: the largest employer of African American men and the United States. 92 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:43,359 Speaker 1: There were also African American maids who worked on the trains. 93 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:46,919 Speaker 1: Um There was about one made for every fifty porters 94 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:50,039 Speaker 1: in the mid nineteen twenties, and the job of a 95 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 1: pullman porter was actually a highly coveted one, and porters 96 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:57,840 Speaker 1: were very well respected within their home communities. The job 97 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 1: did not require a lot of heavy manually, which was 98 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 1: rare among jobs for African American men, and porters got 99 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:07,159 Speaker 1: to travel all over and so they became sources of 100 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 1: information about jobs and news when they would travel back home, 101 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:13,279 Speaker 1: and they also, as a consequence, wound up being the 102 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:16,560 Speaker 1: company's best recruiters because they would return home with stories 103 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 1: of adventure and travel, and they would have pockets full 104 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:22,919 Speaker 1: of tips. So it looked like a very glamorous, uh 105 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:26,159 Speaker 1: you know, really pretty cushy job to a lot of people, Yes, 106 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:30,400 Speaker 1: but in reality, porters worked extremely long hours for not 107 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:34,240 Speaker 1: much money. A pullman porter in the twenties had to 108 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:38,479 Speaker 1: work four hundred hours or travel eleven thousand miles in 109 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:41,760 Speaker 1: a month, whichever came first, to earn his full pay. 110 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 1: So if you're doing math in your head right now, 111 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 1: that is thirteen to fourteen hours a day every day 112 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 1: with zero days off during the month, or about two 113 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:52,840 Speaker 1: round trips all the way across the country from New 114 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:56,839 Speaker 1: York to San Francisco. The base salary for this work 115 00:06:56,960 --> 00:06:59,719 Speaker 1: was about eight hundred and seventeen dollars a year, and 116 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:02,240 Speaker 1: then in twenties. UM, I look at a bunch of 117 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 1: different ways to calculate how much this means today, and 118 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 1: they are widely Yeah, it's hard to do the transliteration 119 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 1: on yeah. Yeah. So if if you really really want 120 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 1: a number, we can call it about twenty two dollars 121 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 1: for thirty or thirty one, thirteen or fourteen hour days minimum. 122 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 1: And I was winding earlier about how angry I get 123 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 1: just harming to get up in the morning. Most porters 124 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 1: actually made more in tips than they did in salary, 125 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 1: and added together this these two incomes often made up 126 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:37,920 Speaker 1: for more money than many other jobs open to African Americans, 127 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 1: but it was much much less than white people could 128 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 1: make in other pullman company jobs. For example, porters made 129 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 1: much less than the conductors, who were all white, yet 130 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 1: they often had to do the work of the conductor. 131 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 1: Porters also had to spend a lot of their pay 132 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 1: on things that they needed for work, including food, uniforms, 133 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:00,840 Speaker 1: and shoe polish. They also had to pay for their 134 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 1: own lodging during layovers, and if passengers walked off with 135 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 1: columns or towels or other small items, as often happens 136 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 1: in any kind of situation like that, it was stocked 137 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:15,679 Speaker 1: from the porter's pay. And then there were uh parts 138 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 1: of the job that were really quite frankly degrading. For example, 139 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 1: the porter's blankets were never allowed to be mixed with 140 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 1: the passengers blankets in the wash and to achieve this, 141 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:30,680 Speaker 1: they were color coded, so the porter's blankets were blue 142 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 1: and the passengers blankets were sort of salmon color. When 143 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:36,840 Speaker 1: the passenger blankets started to wear out and become unfit 144 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:40,079 Speaker 1: for use, they would be dyed blue, and then those 145 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:42,600 Speaker 1: worn out blankets would be given to the porters. The 146 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 1: porters didn't get to use these blankets much though. Most 147 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 1: of them got to sleep a maximum of three hours 148 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 1: a night, and that really was a maximum. They were 149 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:53,720 Speaker 1: thirty nights when they didn't sleep at all. We're using 150 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:56,640 Speaker 1: the thirteen to fourteen hour a day number is an average. 151 00:08:57,240 --> 00:09:00,520 Speaker 1: In reality, their word days off and they be working 152 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 1: more like twenty one hours in a day for most 153 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 1: of their working time. Um, so they did not get 154 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:09,719 Speaker 1: a lot of sleep. They also had no berths assigned 155 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:12,600 Speaker 1: to them. Porters usually had to sleep on couches in 156 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:15,680 Speaker 1: the smoking car behind a screen, and they were not 157 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:18,080 Speaker 1: allowed to clear the car so that they could sleep. 158 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 1: Porters were also required to answer to the name of 159 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:24,920 Speaker 1: George uh. This was a holdover from when slaves were 160 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:28,120 Speaker 1: referred to by their master's names, and just as often 161 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 1: they were called not by a name at all, but 162 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 1: by a racial slur. That we are not interested in 163 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 1: repeating here. Uh, you probably guess what it is. And 164 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:38,040 Speaker 1: it was pretty much a given that calling a porter 165 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:41,680 Speaker 1: George meant the same thing as using that slur. Because 166 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:45,680 Speaker 1: of segregation, it was also entirely possible for porters to 167 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:48,320 Speaker 1: have no safe place to sleep and nowhere to get 168 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 1: food during layovers, and the company really didn't do anything 169 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:55,840 Speaker 1: to compensate for that. Porters who tried to address any 170 00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 1: of these issues at the company faced retaliation in the 171 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 1: form of being randed troublemakers or even just fired. So 172 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 1: the porters, uh, you know, recognizing that there were conditions 173 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 1: about their work that they would like a change, tried 174 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:13,079 Speaker 1: to unionize three times between nineteen o nine and nineteen thirteen. 175 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:16,600 Speaker 1: None of these was successful, but the company realized that 176 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 1: had a problem, so it started its own union, the 177 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 1: Pullman Porter's Benefit Association, in nineteen fifteen. It's first chairman, 178 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:28,480 Speaker 1: Arthur A. Wells, was actually George Pullman's personal assistant and 179 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:32,719 Speaker 1: his attendant in his private car. The company also established 180 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:36,320 Speaker 1: the Employee Representation Plan in nineteen twenty, which was purportedly 181 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:40,240 Speaker 1: to focus on getting better pay. It docked the money 182 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 1: to fund this plan out of the porter's salaries, so 183 00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:49,960 Speaker 1: it had basically the company recognized its labor issue quote 184 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 1: and then tried to address it by making this kind 185 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:58,760 Speaker 1: of company run union. And this wasn't the only time 186 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 1: that the Pullman Company had really taken the bull by 187 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:04,960 Speaker 1: the horns to try to solve labor problems. In eighteen eighty, 188 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:07,920 Speaker 1: the Pullman Company built the town of Pullman, which was 189 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:11,840 Speaker 1: south of Chicago, as worker housing, and from the outside 190 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 1: it really looked like a wholesome place to live, but 191 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:17,440 Speaker 1: the company controlled everything about it, down to what books 192 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:20,680 Speaker 1: the library could have. It was a dry town and 193 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 1: the only place that served alcohol was a hotel, but 194 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:25,720 Speaker 1: you can only get alcohol there if you were a 195 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:29,160 Speaker 1: guest and not a resident of the town. So when 196 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 1: a depression started in eighteen ninety four and residents couldn't 197 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 1: afford to live on what was left after the company 198 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:38,320 Speaker 1: payroll deducted their rent, it contributed to a strike that 199 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 1: was so bad the federal government had to intervene. George 200 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:45,440 Speaker 1: Pullman's relationship with his employees was contentious enough that when 201 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 1: he died in eighteen ninety seven, he left instructions that 202 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:51,840 Speaker 1: he be entombed in steel and concrete so that disgremal 203 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:57,120 Speaker 1: employees could not desecrate his body. Yeah, that's that's an 204 00:11:57,120 --> 00:12:02,079 Speaker 1: adversarial relationship, quite adversiveate extremely mildly well, and the town 205 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:05,480 Speaker 1: of Pullman is a fascinating story on its own. It 206 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 1: had kind of a extremely weird Stepford quality about it. 207 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 1: The company would come and search people's homes just because, 208 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:16,960 Speaker 1: like it was really a surveillance state for the people 209 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 1: who were living there. Um. So back to the porters. Finally, 210 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:24,600 Speaker 1: in n a New York porter named Ashley L. Totton 211 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 1: got four other porters together in secret, and together they 212 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:31,440 Speaker 1: approached a man named a Philip Randolph to help them 213 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 1: start a union and to lead it once it was 214 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 1: off the ground. A Philip Randolph had never worked for 215 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:40,400 Speaker 1: the Pullman Company, he'd never even ridden in one of 216 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:43,360 Speaker 1: its cars, but he did have a long history and 217 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:47,840 Speaker 1: a notorious reputation for labor activism. He was also a pacifist, 218 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 1: he was an atheist, and he was a socialist. So 219 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:54,199 Speaker 1: in short, that meant that he basically had enemies everywhere, 220 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 1: but he was an excellent advocate and he was really 221 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 1: devoted to the cause of labor. Right at this point, 222 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 1: he had a long history of political activity, including a 223 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 1: very long effort to encourage African Americans to unionize and 224 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:11,560 Speaker 1: to advocate for themselves in labor issues. So after some 225 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 1: initial reluctance, he decided to help start a union. And 226 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 1: before we talk about the union, would you like to 227 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:20,080 Speaker 1: take a moment and talk about a word from our sponsor. 228 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:25,559 Speaker 1: Now on to the Brotherhood of Sleeping Car Porters. It 229 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:30,320 Speaker 1: had its first meeting on August and it published a 230 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:33,079 Speaker 1: list of demands in The Messenger, which was a magazine 231 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 1: that a Philip Randolph had co founded in nineteen seventeen. 232 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:40,920 Speaker 1: Among these demands were a significant pay raise, abolishing the 233 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:46,640 Speaker 1: practice of tipping, providing adequate rest breaks, and increasing the pensions. 234 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:50,440 Speaker 1: And the porters also demanded that a name card be 235 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:53,760 Speaker 1: placed in each car so that passengers could call could 236 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:57,720 Speaker 1: call them their actual names instead of George. And it 237 00:13:57,800 --> 00:13:59,960 Speaker 1: may seem kind of odd that they would want to 238 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:03,080 Speaker 1: abolished tipping, since that was a source of income, but 239 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:05,880 Speaker 1: because porter's base pay was so low, they had to 240 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 1: be completely subservient and ingretiating to white writers at all 241 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:12,320 Speaker 1: times in the hope of getting a better tips that 242 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:16,440 Speaker 1: they were making a living wage. So abolishing tips could lessen, 243 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:19,720 Speaker 1: but not entirely remove, one of the most degrading aspects 244 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 1: of their job. The Pullman Company met zero of these demands, 245 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 1: and it also did not recognize the union as a 246 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 1: legitimate organization that it would notice that would negotiate with. 247 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:33,120 Speaker 1: It started firing people who were working with the union 248 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:36,840 Speaker 1: and infiltrating union meetings with spies. And because of all 249 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:39,280 Speaker 1: the espionage that was going on on the company's part, 250 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 1: the Brotherhood became extremely secretive. There were secret passwords, there 251 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:47,800 Speaker 1: were secret handshakes. The porter's wives were also instrumental in 252 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:51,800 Speaker 1: maintaining secrecy. Uh they formed an ancillary network to distribute 253 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 1: information and even attend on their husband's behalf if spies 254 00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:59,840 Speaker 1: were said to be present. The porter's wives eventually for 255 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:04,320 Speaker 1: what was called the Ladies Auxiliary, which campaigned, they held fundraisers. 256 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 1: They helped keep the union members morale up during the 257 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:10,400 Speaker 1: really long effort to get official recognition, and without the 258 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 1: Ladies Auxiliary, the Brotherhood probably would have failed. Espionage was 259 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 1: also only one way that the company tried to outmaneuver 260 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 1: the union. The Pullman Company started by negotiating pay raises 261 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:25,000 Speaker 1: with the in house unions try to make it look good. 262 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:28,480 Speaker 1: These were much much smaller raises than what the Union 263 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 1: or the you know, the Brotherhood was campaigning for. It 264 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:36,280 Speaker 1: also started strategically hiring people it thought would be more compliant, 265 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:39,240 Speaker 1: and it also did its share of media spin about 266 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:42,960 Speaker 1: how well paid and well treated its employees were, including 267 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 1: publishing articles to that effect in the black Papers. It 268 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 1: also cooked its numbers with its own polls that it 269 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 1: conducted to make it look like eighty five of the 270 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 1: porters were in favor of the in House Union and 271 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 1: not the Brotherhood of Sleeping car Borders and the Brotherhood's 272 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:01,840 Speaker 1: effort to be recognized went on for twelve extremely difficult years. 273 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 1: There was name calling on both sides. The company branded 274 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:09,720 Speaker 1: union supporters as communists, and the union branding porters who 275 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 1: wouldn't join as traders to their race. The company intimidated 276 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 1: people who talked about joining and the union and intimidated 277 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:20,240 Speaker 1: people who didn't join. It was kind of an ugly 278 00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:23,480 Speaker 1: fight on both sides and a lot of ways. And 279 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 1: then in the late nineteen twenties, the union nearly collapsed 280 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 1: following a call for a strike that never got off 281 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 1: the ground. The Brotherhood's membership started to drop because people started, 282 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:35,280 Speaker 1: we're starting to feel really frustrated about the fact that 283 00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:40,200 Speaker 1: nothing was actually changing. Membership was halved between nine and 284 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 1: nineteen nine, and then again by nineteen thirty one. Then, 285 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 1: thanks to the Great Depression, the threat of job loss 286 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:50,480 Speaker 1: made people even more reluctant to be involved in the union, 287 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 1: so by nineteen thirty three it only had six hundred 288 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:57,640 Speaker 1: and fifty eight members. But in nineteen thirty four, President 289 00:16:57,680 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 1: Franklin Delano Roosevelt signed the National Labor Relations Act, which 290 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:05,199 Speaker 1: encouraged collective bargaining and gave the union a legal footing 291 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 1: that it had not had before, and membership started to 292 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:12,960 Speaker 1: grow again. In the Pullman Company finally sat down with 293 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:15,720 Speaker 1: Randolph and other members of the union to negotiate for 294 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:20,240 Speaker 1: the first time. Two years later, the Pullman Company finally 295 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 1: recognized the Brotherhood of Sleeping Car Porders. The Brotherhood signed 296 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:28,040 Speaker 1: its first labor agreement with the company on August of 297 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:32,200 Speaker 1: that year. This agreement raised the minimum salary from seventy 298 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 1: seven dollars and fifty cents to eighty nine dollars and 299 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:38,480 Speaker 1: fifty cents a month. That might not sound like the 300 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:41,639 Speaker 1: most monumental pay increase, but it was for two hundred 301 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 1: and forty hours of work, not four hundred. The agreement 302 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:50,720 Speaker 1: also guaranteed sleeping time, it established a procedure for handling grievances, 303 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:55,240 Speaker 1: and gave some other benefits as well. Over the years, 304 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 1: the Brotherhood of Sleeping car Porters continued to negotiate with 305 00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:01,879 Speaker 1: the Pullman Company. The monthly pay, when averaged out to 306 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:06,160 Speaker 1: an hourly rate, was eventually better than that of engineers, conductors, 307 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:08,800 Speaker 1: and other railroad positions that were at that point held 308 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:14,359 Speaker 1: by white people. Working conditions improved as well. Gradually, the 309 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 1: Brotherhood of Sleeping car Porters also turned its attention to 310 00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:21,720 Speaker 1: helping other labor organizations integrate the jobs that had previously 311 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 1: been acceptable only for white people. As a side note, 312 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:29,040 Speaker 1: it was apparently an all white organization of guys named 313 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:32,800 Speaker 1: George called the Society for the Prevention of Calling Sleeping 314 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:36,120 Speaker 1: car Porters George that convinced the Pullman Company to put 315 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 1: name cards for the porters in the cars. These were 316 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:45,159 Speaker 1: basically white people named George who objected two the associations 317 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 1: with their name that were happening. Yeah, it's kind of 318 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:50,399 Speaker 1: like if the name Tracy had become some sort of 319 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 1: racial slur and you and all the other Tracy said, 320 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 1: that's not cool. I think my motivation would be a 321 00:18:56,119 --> 00:19:00,480 Speaker 1: little different than than the organization's motivation was. There was 322 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:02,600 Speaker 1: probably one that they did not want to be associated 323 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:09,720 Speaker 1: with people, But they did eventually move away from the 324 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 1: practice of just calling everyone George. So the Pullman Company 325 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:16,760 Speaker 1: made a practice of buying up a lot of its competitors, 326 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:20,040 Speaker 1: and in nineteen forty the United States Department of Justice 327 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:24,120 Speaker 1: filed an antitrust complaint against the company. In the end, 328 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 1: the company was ordered to divest itself of either its 329 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 1: business of operating sleeper cars or its business of building 330 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:33,399 Speaker 1: sleeper cars. If this sort of rings a bell in 331 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:35,520 Speaker 1: your mind, it was cited as a precedent in the 332 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 1: Microsoft antitrust case. This case continued to shake out through 333 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:44,080 Speaker 1: the nineteen forties, and in ninety seven Pullman formally handed 334 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 1: over ownership of the sleeping car business to a consortium 335 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:51,800 Speaker 1: of fifty seven railroads. The Brotherhood continued to negotiate with 336 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:54,080 Speaker 1: the railroads, and by this point it was no longer 337 00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 1: an exclusively African American organization. It also represented white barbers, 338 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:01,960 Speaker 1: maids from the Philippe Means, and others working in service 339 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 1: positions on the railroads. At about this same time, the 340 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:08,639 Speaker 1: Brotherhood and its leadership and its members also started to 341 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:11,680 Speaker 1: become a force for equal rights outside of their working life. 342 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:15,919 Speaker 1: So in the nineteen forties, many African Americans moved to 343 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:19,080 Speaker 1: urban areas where defense work was in full swing because 344 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:22,000 Speaker 1: there was a huge demand for workers as part of 345 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:25,200 Speaker 1: the war effort. The problem was once they got there, 346 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:28,840 Speaker 1: African Americans often faced harassment and discrimination, and there was 347 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:33,240 Speaker 1: a federal hiring system that favored white people. Randolph and 348 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:36,399 Speaker 1: other black leaders actually met with Eleanor Roosevelt and members 349 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:40,399 Speaker 1: of the cabinet promising a protest march on Washington. On 350 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:45,040 Speaker 1: June twenty ninety one, FDR issued Executive Order eight eight 351 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:48,399 Speaker 1: zero two, which said, in part quote, I do hereby 352 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:51,120 Speaker 1: reaffirm the policy of the United States that there shall 353 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:53,959 Speaker 1: be no discrimination in the employment of workers in defense 354 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 1: industries or government because of race, creed, color, or national origin. 355 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:02,399 Speaker 1: After World War Two, Randolph was also part of the 356 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:05,640 Speaker 1: effort to integrate the American Army, and thanks in part 357 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:09,639 Speaker 1: to his campaigning but also to the realities of needing 358 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 1: the black vote to win re election, President Harry S. 359 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:16,359 Speaker 1: Truman banned segregation of the armed forces through Executive Order 360 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:23,080 Speaker 1: one on July. Randolph was also a director of the 361 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:26,000 Speaker 1: March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom, at which Dr 362 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:28,520 Speaker 1: Martin Luther King Jr. Gave his famous I Have a 363 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:32,320 Speaker 1: Dream speech. D. D. Nixon, whose name you may remember 364 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:35,879 Speaker 1: from our recent episode on Rosa Parks, worked on the 365 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 1: Montgomery bus boycott. He was also a sleeping car porter, 366 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:42,040 Speaker 1: and in fact he took himself out of the running 367 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 1: to be president of the Montgomery Improvement Association, which was 368 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:48,400 Speaker 1: the position that was held by Dr Martin Luther King 369 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 1: because of his work schedule. Like Edie Nixon, other Pullman 370 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:55,960 Speaker 1: porters became civil rights activists in their own hometowns. The 371 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 1: Brotherhood and its members had gone up against white white 372 00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:02,119 Speaker 1: power structure and eventually one Because of the nature of 373 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:04,760 Speaker 1: their jobs, the porters were also acutely aware of the 374 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:08,280 Speaker 1: effects of racism and discrimination. The porters used all this 375 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 1: experience to become important sources of information and organization throughout 376 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:16,680 Speaker 1: the civil rights movement. They also smuggled and distributed pamphlets 377 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 1: and literature bypassing the mail system, So if you had 378 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 1: places where corrupt mail officials were just trashing things instead 379 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:27,840 Speaker 1: of delivering them. They had a way to work around 380 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:32,879 Speaker 1: that by using this network of sleeping car porders. The 381 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:35,199 Speaker 1: railroad really dropped off as a means of travel in 382 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 1: the nineteen sixties thanks to the rise of air travel 383 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:41,920 Speaker 1: and the interstate highway system. The number of pullman porters 384 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:46,240 Speaker 1: working really just dropped precipitously. There were only about three 385 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:50,119 Speaker 1: thousand of them by nineteen sixty two. And after the 386 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:52,760 Speaker 1: Civil Rights movement, and in spite of the involvement and 387 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 1: leadership on the part of so many members, a lot 388 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,399 Speaker 1: of people really stopped seeing the pullman porters as the 389 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 1: labor and civil rights champion is that they had been 390 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:03,960 Speaker 1: for so many years, and instead they remembered the part 391 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:08,480 Speaker 1: where African American porters cow town to white passengers for tips. 392 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:10,919 Speaker 1: I think that's one of the saddest things about this 393 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:14,000 Speaker 1: whole story. It really is um you have a group 394 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:18,800 Speaker 1: of people who worked so hard for so long to 395 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:21,760 Speaker 1: take and take ownership of their jobs and and to 396 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:24,239 Speaker 1: gain a measure of dignity in a job that was 397 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:27,320 Speaker 1: inherently demeaning in a lot of ways. But today, the 398 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 1: takeaway to a lot of people is this image it's 399 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:35,480 Speaker 1: offensive really and completely mischaracterized. Yeah. Yeah, the Brotherhood of 400 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:39,119 Speaker 1: Sleeping car Porters merged with the Brotherhood of Railway airline, 401 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:44,440 Speaker 1: steamship clerks, freight handlers, express and station employees in UH. 402 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:46,879 Speaker 1: That is a very long name for basically what was 403 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:51,840 Speaker 1: a similar organization of service positions in travel. Um. And 404 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 1: this was just because at that point there weren't really 405 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,879 Speaker 1: sleeping cars in that way anymore. And as for a 406 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:00,679 Speaker 1: Philip Randolph, he was awarded the Press Cudential Medal of 407 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:04,080 Speaker 1: Freedom in nineteen sixty four. He died on May sixteenth 408 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:07,399 Speaker 1: of nineteen seventy nine. UM. There is a really great 409 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:10,720 Speaker 1: book called Rising from the Rails, Pullman Porters and the 410 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 1: Making of the Black middle Class, which is by Larry Tye, 411 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:16,480 Speaker 1: and UH. One of the awesome things about it, in 412 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 1: addition to the fact that it gives a chronology of 413 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 1: the whole like the job of sleeping car porter and 414 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:26,720 Speaker 1: the the work of the union and and the progress 415 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:29,520 Speaker 1: that was made over the years, is that the author 416 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 1: tracked down as many living pullman porters as he could 417 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 1: find or their families like immediate family members and children, 418 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:40,480 Speaker 1: to talk to them about what the job was like. 419 00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 1: And about what their lives were like and about what 420 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 1: the time was like. And so there are just so 421 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 1: many first person accounts in this book. Um, if you 422 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:53,560 Speaker 1: were interested in it at all, Um, you you should. 423 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 1: You should check it out and and take a look 424 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:58,360 Speaker 1: at it. It is a very interesting story with many 425 00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:00,879 Speaker 1: things that we have not talked about here. Um. There's 426 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:04,000 Speaker 1: also a book called Marching Together, Women of the Brotherhood 427 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:05,920 Speaker 1: of Sleeping car Porters, which is something that we only 428 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 1: touched on a little bit today. Um. The Sleeping car 429 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 1: Porters are at various points also had and Maids in 430 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:16,200 Speaker 1: its name because there were also maids working on the cars. 431 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:20,280 Speaker 1: But the porters definitely get more attention in terms of 432 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:24,000 Speaker 1: historical accounts and that kind of thing. Do you also 433 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:25,879 Speaker 1: have a listener mail for us? Why? Yes, I do. 434 00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:29,200 Speaker 1: This is from John and it is about our episode 435 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:33,119 Speaker 1: on the Pueblo Revolt. Hey guys, I really appreciated your 436 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:35,840 Speaker 1: Pueblo Revolt podcast and was happy to hear you guys 437 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 1: talk about my home state of New Mexico, the Land 438 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:40,560 Speaker 1: of Enchantment. I thought you might be interested to hear 439 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:43,240 Speaker 1: some additional info I learned on a recent visit to 440 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:46,640 Speaker 1: the Akama Pueblo near Grants, New Mexico. While on tour 441 00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:49,880 Speaker 1: through the Peblo, which is still alive and inhabited with residents, 442 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,040 Speaker 1: we went into the Spaniard church, which was built in 443 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:55,560 Speaker 1: sixteen twenty nine atop the mesa with the rest of 444 00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:59,040 Speaker 1: the Pueblo structures. What I was surprised to learn while 445 00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:01,760 Speaker 1: inside the stripped own church was how the Spaniards used 446 00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:04,480 Speaker 1: brute force to make the Akama people construct the church 447 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:08,120 Speaker 1: with supplies gathered around the mesa. Some of the main 448 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:12,440 Speaker 1: structural pieces were very large vegas to wooden support tresses, 449 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:15,480 Speaker 1: which were gathered from atop the nearby Mount Taylor more 450 00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:20,440 Speaker 1: than thirty miles away. These huge timbers were specially selected 451 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:22,639 Speaker 1: by the Spaniards and were carried on the backs of 452 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:25,040 Speaker 1: the Pueblo people all the way back to the church site. 453 00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:27,960 Speaker 1: It was mentioned that because of the religious significance of 454 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:32,960 Speaker 1: these specially selected timbers, the Akama people carrying the trees 455 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 1: were not allowed to let the timber touch the ground 456 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:37,280 Speaker 1: on the way back, otherwise they would be forced to 457 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:39,359 Speaker 1: drop the vega and head back to the mountain to 458 00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 1: find a new one to replace it. I can only 459 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:46,359 Speaker 1: imagine the difficulty in that task, especially after seeing l 460 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:49,960 Speaker 1: mal Pay the bad Land, which is a large expanse 461 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:53,639 Speaker 1: of lava flows between the Sky City Akama Pueblo and 462 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 1: Mount Taylor, which the Akama must have had to deal 463 00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:59,840 Speaker 1: with with crossing while carrying the timbers for the Spaniards. 464 00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:02,160 Speaker 1: I hope this helped to give you guys a more 465 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:04,600 Speaker 1: in depth look at the pressures the Pueblo people were 466 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:06,480 Speaker 1: faced with, and I look forward to many more of 467 00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:11,880 Speaker 1: your podcast. That is a kind of heartbreaking story, it is. 468 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:15,200 Speaker 1: It was also a chance for me to correctly pronounce 469 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:19,560 Speaker 1: the word Acama, which I said completely wrong in the 470 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:23,280 Speaker 1: episode because the pronunciation looked so obvious to me that 471 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 1: I did not look it up. It happened. Um. I 472 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:29,320 Speaker 1: also mispronounced one day one and that was just because 473 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:33,359 Speaker 1: I badly tried to speak Spanish did not do a 474 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:37,280 Speaker 1: good job with it. So thank you so much, John. 475 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:39,239 Speaker 1: If you would like to write to us about this 476 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:42,440 Speaker 1: or any other episode, you can. We're at History Podcast 477 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,720 Speaker 1: at Discovery dot com. We're also on Facebook at facebook 478 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:48,159 Speaker 1: dot com slash miss in History and on Twitter at 479 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:51,800 Speaker 1: miss in History. Our tumbler is Missing History dot tumbler 480 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:55,760 Speaker 1: dot com, uh and our pretty fun pinboard which I 481 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:58,440 Speaker 1: am enjoying. Pinning things to you is on Pinterest at 482 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:02,480 Speaker 1: pinterest dot com slash miss in history. If you would 483 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:04,520 Speaker 1: like to learn more about some of what we've talked 484 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:06,800 Speaker 1: about today, you can come to our website. Put the 485 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:11,280 Speaker 1: word March on Washington, which a Philip Randolph helped to coordinate. 486 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:13,520 Speaker 1: Put that in the search bar and you will find 487 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,760 Speaker 1: how the March on Washington worked. You can learn all 488 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:18,399 Speaker 1: of that and a whole lot more at our website, 489 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:59,760 Speaker 1: which is how stuff works dot com. Mm hmmm mm 490 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:53,320 Speaker 1: it beat it, beat woten, other bother the bootl but 491 00:30:54,000 --> 00:31:26,080 Speaker 1: beat it, beat it for more on this and thousands 492 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:28,440 Speaker 1: of other topics because it has to works dot com. 493 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:42,080 Speaker 1: Audible dot com is the leading provider of downloadable digital 494 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 1: audio books and spoken word entertainment. 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