1 00:00:15,436 --> 00:00:24,316 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Earlier this year, I taught a class at Yale 2 00:00:24,316 --> 00:00:25,956 Speaker 1: on the science of well being and how we can 3 00:00:25,956 --> 00:00:29,796 Speaker 1: apply research back strategies to live happier lives. What we're 4 00:00:29,836 --> 00:00:32,636 Speaker 1: continuing our discussion on today are the kinds of right 5 00:00:32,756 --> 00:00:36,276 Speaker 1: sorts of thoughts that seemed to make us happy. It 6 00:00:36,316 --> 00:00:37,876 Speaker 1: was the same course that I had offered for the 7 00:00:37,916 --> 00:00:40,356 Speaker 1: first time back in twenty eighteen. It's the one that 8 00:00:40,356 --> 00:00:42,356 Speaker 1: got a lot of media attention and led to the 9 00:00:42,356 --> 00:00:45,756 Speaker 1: creation of this podcast. But this time around I added 10 00:00:45,756 --> 00:00:49,716 Speaker 1: a new happiness time worry negative thought pattern's rumination. These 11 00:00:49,756 --> 00:00:52,596 Speaker 1: are not good, they're not effective strategies, but we are 12 00:00:52,636 --> 00:00:55,396 Speaker 1: some effective strategies for controlling our thoughts. Are their thought 13 00:00:55,396 --> 00:00:58,236 Speaker 1: patterns we can use that aren't just neutral but actively 14 00:00:58,276 --> 00:01:01,196 Speaker 1: help us. My new lecture was all about strategies we 15 00:01:01,276 --> 00:01:03,996 Speaker 1: can use to change our inner monologue and fight our 16 00:01:04,036 --> 00:01:07,076 Speaker 1: inner critic. When my students reviewed the class at the 17 00:01:07,116 --> 00:01:09,596 Speaker 1: end of the semester, they said this new lecture was 18 00:01:09,636 --> 00:01:12,876 Speaker 1: the most useful part of the entire class. Pretty Much 19 00:01:12,916 --> 00:01:15,796 Speaker 1: all of the strategies my students found so helpful came 20 00:01:15,836 --> 00:01:19,196 Speaker 1: from one particular book, The Fantastic Book by Ethan Cross 21 00:01:19,236 --> 00:01:22,916 Speaker 1: called Chatter. It's all about useful strategies and ways you 22 00:01:22,916 --> 00:01:25,556 Speaker 1: can talk to yourself in your head to improve well 23 00:01:25,596 --> 00:01:28,916 Speaker 1: being and also improve productivity. So when I invited listeners 24 00:01:28,916 --> 00:01:31,076 Speaker 1: of this podcast to write in with questions about how 25 00:01:31,116 --> 00:01:33,636 Speaker 1: to be happier, I wasn't all that surprised when we 26 00:01:33,716 --> 00:01:36,756 Speaker 1: got a ton of questions on the same theme, how 27 00:01:36,796 --> 00:01:38,876 Speaker 1: can we shut up that inner voice in our heads 28 00:01:39,036 --> 00:01:42,076 Speaker 1: so that we can feel happier? And I knew exactly 29 00:01:42,076 --> 00:01:45,156 Speaker 1: who to call to get some answers. My name's Ethan Cross. 30 00:01:45,196 --> 00:01:48,236 Speaker 1: I'm a professor of psychology and management at the University 31 00:01:48,236 --> 00:01:51,316 Speaker 1: of Michigan and the author of the book called Chatter, 32 00:01:51,476 --> 00:01:53,556 Speaker 1: The Voice in Our Head, Why it Matters, and How 33 00:01:53,556 --> 00:01:56,236 Speaker 1: to Harness It. Today, we'll be diving into ways we 34 00:01:56,276 --> 00:01:58,636 Speaker 1: can change the way we talk to ourselves so our 35 00:01:58,676 --> 00:02:02,836 Speaker 1: inner critics can become our inner champions. You're listening to 36 00:02:02,876 --> 00:02:06,436 Speaker 1: the Happiness Lab Listener Questions Special Edition with me Doctor 37 00:02:06,516 --> 00:02:13,076 Speaker 1: Laurie Santos, So Ethan, the question I wanted to tell 38 00:02:13,116 --> 00:02:16,596 Speaker 1: you about today was from a listener called Buttery bran Again, 39 00:02:16,676 --> 00:02:19,316 Speaker 1: who I learned actually isn't a person named Buttery bran Again, 40 00:02:19,396 --> 00:02:21,836 Speaker 1: but is the Twitter account of a YA author duo 41 00:02:22,036 --> 00:02:24,116 Speaker 1: Beth Buttery and Patricia Brand again. But we're just going 42 00:02:24,196 --> 00:02:27,116 Speaker 1: to call them Buttery Brand again for now. Buttery Bran 43 00:02:27,196 --> 00:02:31,756 Speaker 1: again asks, Hey, Happiness Lab, help me. I want to 44 00:02:31,796 --> 00:02:34,356 Speaker 1: stop all this negative self talk and finally learn how 45 00:02:34,356 --> 00:02:37,116 Speaker 1: to love myself. Please help. The reason I loved this 46 00:02:37,196 --> 00:02:39,676 Speaker 1: question so much is I think Buttery could mean two 47 00:02:39,836 --> 00:02:42,556 Speaker 1: kinds of things by how to stop all this negative 48 00:02:42,556 --> 00:02:45,796 Speaker 1: self talk. Right. One is all the negative self talk 49 00:02:45,836 --> 00:02:47,876 Speaker 1: in your head, right like rumination and worry and all 50 00:02:47,876 --> 00:02:50,156 Speaker 1: that stuff. But then a second thing she could mean 51 00:02:50,436 --> 00:02:53,436 Speaker 1: is the negative self talk, right like the bad things 52 00:02:53,436 --> 00:02:55,636 Speaker 1: we say about yourself. And one of the reasons I 53 00:02:55,676 --> 00:02:57,396 Speaker 1: was so excited to talk to you is that you're 54 00:02:57,436 --> 00:02:59,076 Speaker 1: a guy who has studied both of these, so you 55 00:02:59,116 --> 00:03:01,716 Speaker 1: can help us. Let's start with this idea of the 56 00:03:01,756 --> 00:03:04,396 Speaker 1: negative parts of our self talk, right like, Buttery is 57 00:03:04,436 --> 00:03:07,436 Speaker 1: not unique here. A lot of us have stuff going 58 00:03:07,436 --> 00:03:09,276 Speaker 1: on in our heads that doesn't feel so great, kind 59 00:03:09,316 --> 00:03:13,996 Speaker 1: of feels pretty sad or fearful or just generally pretty negative. Right, Yeah, absolutely, 60 00:03:14,036 --> 00:03:17,316 Speaker 1: I mean I hear this question a lot, so Buttery branagan, 61 00:03:17,356 --> 00:03:20,116 Speaker 1: am I getting the name right? Brand? Again, you are 62 00:03:20,236 --> 00:03:23,956 Speaker 1: not alone. Actually, just knowing that, hopefully is a teency 63 00:03:24,036 --> 00:03:26,236 Speaker 1: bit empowering. I think it's really important for us to 64 00:03:26,316 --> 00:03:30,156 Speaker 1: normalize the experience of negative emotions in general, and negative 65 00:03:30,156 --> 00:03:32,596 Speaker 1: self talk as well. One thing that I know you 66 00:03:32,636 --> 00:03:36,236 Speaker 1: believe in Lori and have talked about before is that 67 00:03:36,316 --> 00:03:39,996 Speaker 1: negative emotions in and of themselves aren't a bad thing. 68 00:03:40,596 --> 00:03:42,476 Speaker 1: What we do want to figure out how to do 69 00:03:43,156 --> 00:03:47,356 Speaker 1: is keep those negative emotions in check, because like buttery 70 00:03:47,396 --> 00:03:50,636 Speaker 1: brand again, Buttery Yeah, we'll squalid buttery yeah, butterbrand. I 71 00:03:50,716 --> 00:03:53,836 Speaker 1: kind of want to master the buttery brand again, Duo, 72 00:03:53,956 --> 00:03:57,156 Speaker 1: I love it, Like I'm guessing they they have experienced 73 00:03:57,236 --> 00:03:59,996 Speaker 1: many times which motivated this question, Like those negative emotions 74 00:03:59,996 --> 00:04:03,116 Speaker 1: can often morph into rumination and worry, and that's when 75 00:04:03,156 --> 00:04:06,196 Speaker 1: they can get really dysfunctional. I want to talk about 76 00:04:06,196 --> 00:04:08,116 Speaker 1: why we have such negative chatter, Like a lot of 77 00:04:08,116 --> 00:04:11,636 Speaker 1: times it's just you know, going over the same problem 78 00:04:11,716 --> 00:04:13,956 Speaker 1: again and again and again. I think we have the 79 00:04:14,036 --> 00:04:16,396 Speaker 1: sense that it works, right if we could just think 80 00:04:16,436 --> 00:04:18,396 Speaker 1: about it and think about something that's going on in 81 00:04:18,396 --> 00:04:20,796 Speaker 1: our lives, that we'd feel better. But you and others 82 00:04:20,836 --> 00:04:23,436 Speaker 1: have found it evidence suggests that that's not the case no. 83 00:04:23,516 --> 00:04:25,436 Speaker 1: A question I get a lot from people I talk 84 00:04:25,516 --> 00:04:28,916 Speaker 1: to is how can I just stop talking to myself? 85 00:04:29,396 --> 00:04:31,996 Speaker 1: I just don't want any more negative self talk. I don't. 86 00:04:32,036 --> 00:04:34,316 Speaker 1: I just want to be in the moment all the time. 87 00:04:34,876 --> 00:04:38,036 Speaker 1: That's it. And I like to remind folks that you 88 00:04:38,076 --> 00:04:39,916 Speaker 1: know your inner voice, which is the basis of all 89 00:04:39,916 --> 00:04:42,756 Speaker 1: that we're talking about here, our ability to silently use 90 00:04:42,876 --> 00:04:46,196 Speaker 1: language to work through problems. This is a fantastic tool. 91 00:04:46,596 --> 00:04:50,596 Speaker 1: In fact, people who lose the capacity to activate their 92 00:04:50,636 --> 00:04:55,356 Speaker 1: inner voice through experiences like strokes, they suffer enormously. And 93 00:04:55,396 --> 00:04:57,756 Speaker 1: so the trick is, how do you figure out how 94 00:04:57,756 --> 00:05:00,996 Speaker 1: to wield this tool more effectively. People also found that 95 00:05:01,076 --> 00:05:03,476 Speaker 1: when we don't wield it effectively, especially when we get 96 00:05:03,516 --> 00:05:06,676 Speaker 1: stuck in these really awful rumination and worry loops, there 97 00:05:06,676 --> 00:05:09,396 Speaker 1: can be these really bad consequences to this. So let's 98 00:05:09,396 --> 00:05:12,516 Speaker 1: talk about some of the bad consequences to the negative chatter. 99 00:05:13,116 --> 00:05:15,836 Speaker 1: I genuinely think, based on what I know of the science, 100 00:05:15,876 --> 00:05:18,716 Speaker 1: that chatter is one of the great challenges that we 101 00:05:18,836 --> 00:05:22,756 Speaker 1: face as a species because of the negative consequences that 102 00:05:22,796 --> 00:05:25,796 Speaker 1: it has for us across domains of life. First, it 103 00:05:25,836 --> 00:05:28,236 Speaker 1: makes it really hard for us to focus. Well, that's 104 00:05:28,236 --> 00:05:29,676 Speaker 1: going to make it really hard for you to do 105 00:05:29,916 --> 00:05:31,996 Speaker 1: a range of things. It's going to make it hard 106 00:05:31,996 --> 00:05:35,116 Speaker 1: for you to read, for fun, to focus on that report, 107 00:05:35,716 --> 00:05:38,916 Speaker 1: or even to pay attention to that person across the 108 00:05:38,956 --> 00:05:42,036 Speaker 1: table who is talking to you. I am willing to 109 00:05:42,076 --> 00:05:44,596 Speaker 1: admit and this is a shameful moment in my life. 110 00:05:44,636 --> 00:05:47,276 Speaker 1: But there have been episodes when I'm sitting at the 111 00:05:47,316 --> 00:05:51,956 Speaker 1: table with my family and I've got young daughter, youngish daughters. 112 00:05:52,236 --> 00:05:55,036 Speaker 1: They want nothing more than to tell me about their day. 113 00:05:55,116 --> 00:05:57,236 Speaker 1: I should feel really lucky that they want to talk 114 00:05:57,276 --> 00:05:59,476 Speaker 1: to me. I'm told that will end at some point 115 00:05:59,516 --> 00:06:02,076 Speaker 1: in the near future. And sometimes they tell me stuff 116 00:06:02,516 --> 00:06:05,036 Speaker 1: and they talk for like two or three minutes, and 117 00:06:05,076 --> 00:06:08,156 Speaker 1: then when they're done, I asked them a question about 118 00:06:08,436 --> 00:06:10,236 Speaker 1: what happened, you say, and they just told me and 119 00:06:10,236 --> 00:06:12,716 Speaker 1: they're like, Dad, we just That's an example of chatter 120 00:06:12,796 --> 00:06:16,836 Speaker 1: consuming our attention. The other way that chatter can undermine 121 00:06:16,956 --> 00:06:19,916 Speaker 1: us is by leading us to choke under the spotlight. 122 00:06:20,596 --> 00:06:23,316 Speaker 1: There's a great phrase I love that captures this. It's 123 00:06:23,796 --> 00:06:27,476 Speaker 1: paralysis by analysis, right, and so here the idea is 124 00:06:27,516 --> 00:06:29,916 Speaker 1: that a lot of the things we do in our 125 00:06:29,956 --> 00:06:34,996 Speaker 1: lives are these complicated behaviors that we've learned to execute automatically. 126 00:06:34,996 --> 00:06:38,316 Speaker 1: So take a gymnast like Simone Biles who is on 127 00:06:38,356 --> 00:06:44,076 Speaker 1: her floor routine doing triple flips and handsprings and smiling 128 00:06:44,076 --> 00:06:46,556 Speaker 1: and all sorts of other complicate stuff that is hard 129 00:06:46,596 --> 00:06:49,436 Speaker 1: for me to wrap my head around. Simone, through practice, 130 00:06:49,476 --> 00:06:53,956 Speaker 1: has learned to do those behaviors automatically without thinking. If 131 00:06:54,036 --> 00:06:56,996 Speaker 1: she starts to experience the negative self talk, if she 132 00:06:57,116 --> 00:06:59,316 Speaker 1: starts to focus on her behavior, him, am I doing 133 00:06:59,356 --> 00:07:01,796 Speaker 1: a good job? Did I do that? Well? What that 134 00:07:01,876 --> 00:07:06,596 Speaker 1: does is that zooms her in on the individual pieces 135 00:07:06,636 --> 00:07:10,396 Speaker 1: of that behavior. So she starts hyper focusing on whether 136 00:07:10,476 --> 00:07:13,556 Speaker 1: she's running fast enough as she tries to execute the summersault, 137 00:07:13,636 --> 00:07:16,796 Speaker 1: or smiling enough. And once you start zooming in really 138 00:07:16,876 --> 00:07:20,636 Speaker 1: narrowly on the specific parts of something complex, the whole 139 00:07:20,676 --> 00:07:23,116 Speaker 1: thing unravels. And this actually happened to her last summer 140 00:07:23,116 --> 00:07:26,236 Speaker 1: in the Olympics. She actually dropped out on the grand estage, 141 00:07:26,236 --> 00:07:29,236 Speaker 1: which is quite quite remarkable, and it's particularly bad because 142 00:07:29,276 --> 00:07:32,236 Speaker 1: it really deeply affects our physical health in ways that 143 00:07:32,276 --> 00:07:34,556 Speaker 1: I think we often don't think right, Like I forget 144 00:07:34,596 --> 00:07:37,436 Speaker 1: that I'm just worrying about some thing about my job 145 00:07:37,596 --> 00:07:39,836 Speaker 1: or what this person thinks about me. But that's something 146 00:07:40,076 --> 00:07:44,516 Speaker 1: real consequences from my body. So here's what we have learned. First, 147 00:07:44,556 --> 00:07:47,396 Speaker 1: I'll do a tiny bit of mythbusting here. Lots of 148 00:07:47,476 --> 00:07:49,996 Speaker 1: us have heard that stress kills. I like to point 149 00:07:49,996 --> 00:07:54,356 Speaker 1: out that that is not actually correct. Just like other 150 00:07:54,436 --> 00:07:58,236 Speaker 1: kinds of negative responses or experiences, stress and small doses 151 00:07:59,036 --> 00:08:02,516 Speaker 1: really really useful. You want to be able to experience 152 00:08:02,676 --> 00:08:06,476 Speaker 1: a stress response. It helps us deal with threat. What 153 00:08:06,556 --> 00:08:08,996 Speaker 1: makes stress toxic, though, is what makes some of the 154 00:08:09,316 --> 00:08:12,036 Speaker 1: other negative emotions we experienced toxic, which is when it 155 00:08:12,076 --> 00:08:17,236 Speaker 1: becomes prolonged and extended over time. That's when stress starts 156 00:08:17,236 --> 00:08:19,836 Speaker 1: to exert a wear and tear on your body that 157 00:08:19,876 --> 00:08:24,956 Speaker 1: has been linked with physical maladies like cardiovascure disease, problems 158 00:08:24,956 --> 00:08:28,476 Speaker 1: of inflammation, and even certain forms of cancer. One of 159 00:08:28,476 --> 00:08:34,036 Speaker 1: the key culprits in perpetuating those stress responses is our chatter, 160 00:08:34,516 --> 00:08:38,956 Speaker 1: because what happens is we experience something truly stressful and 161 00:08:38,996 --> 00:08:41,476 Speaker 1: aversive in our lives. Like let's say you and I 162 00:08:41,516 --> 00:08:44,716 Speaker 1: get into a heated altercation. That's going to be stressful 163 00:08:44,716 --> 00:08:48,276 Speaker 1: for both of us. Right, maybe you leave the recording 164 00:08:48,316 --> 00:08:50,676 Speaker 1: studio and you leave it all behind because you've done 165 00:08:50,676 --> 00:08:52,596 Speaker 1: this a bunch of times, and you know you've dealt 166 00:08:52,636 --> 00:08:56,516 Speaker 1: with the uncomfortable exchange. I'm hopefully not trying to prime 167 00:08:56,596 --> 00:08:59,916 Speaker 1: us to experience anything here greatly self fulfilling prophecy. Here. 168 00:08:59,916 --> 00:09:02,676 Speaker 1: You also have no idea about what my rumination cycles 169 00:09:02,676 --> 00:09:05,476 Speaker 1: are like, because a teeny tiny thing that could possibly 170 00:09:05,476 --> 00:09:07,596 Speaker 1: go wrong on this podcast. Weeks later, you know, I'll 171 00:09:07,636 --> 00:09:09,476 Speaker 1: be walking down the street be like, remember I said 172 00:09:09,476 --> 00:09:12,196 Speaker 1: that dumb thing to Ethan like, aren't. Well, we'll make 173 00:09:12,196 --> 00:09:14,476 Speaker 1: sure we get to what I call the two am 174 00:09:14,556 --> 00:09:17,876 Speaker 1: chatter and my two am chatter strategy. Yeah. The problem 175 00:09:17,996 --> 00:09:21,236 Speaker 1: wasn't what happened to my cardiovascular system while we were chatting. 176 00:09:21,396 --> 00:09:23,916 Speaker 1: It was. The problem is you keep thinking about it. 177 00:09:23,956 --> 00:09:27,356 Speaker 1: And what we've learned is the act of thinking about 178 00:09:27,676 --> 00:09:33,436 Speaker 1: that stressful experience that keeps our physiological stress response activated. 179 00:09:33,796 --> 00:09:36,996 Speaker 1: That is not a good formula for health and launchevity. 180 00:09:37,156 --> 00:09:39,836 Speaker 1: And so all these negative consequences make me at first 181 00:09:39,836 --> 00:09:42,196 Speaker 1: think that Buttery's right, we should find a way to 182 00:09:42,236 --> 00:09:44,716 Speaker 1: stop these things. But you choose to say that we 183 00:09:44,716 --> 00:09:47,716 Speaker 1: shouldn't stop the negative chatter we should in fact harness it, 184 00:09:48,076 --> 00:09:50,556 Speaker 1: which I think is interesting for two reasons. One is 185 00:09:50,596 --> 00:09:53,716 Speaker 1: that we want some negative chatter, which is important, but 186 00:09:53,756 --> 00:09:56,236 Speaker 1: the second is that like we can control it. And 187 00:09:56,276 --> 00:09:57,676 Speaker 1: I feel like this for me was one of the 188 00:09:57,716 --> 00:10:00,316 Speaker 1: deepest insights about the human mind that has really changed 189 00:10:00,356 --> 00:10:02,796 Speaker 1: my life, which is that we are not our thoughts 190 00:10:02,876 --> 00:10:05,076 Speaker 1: as they are right now. We can move them around, 191 00:10:05,196 --> 00:10:07,316 Speaker 1: which is in some ways kind of incredible and an 192 00:10:07,316 --> 00:10:10,476 Speaker 1: insight that not all people ultimately get to. I think 193 00:10:10,556 --> 00:10:14,556 Speaker 1: it's really useful to distinguish between what we have control 194 00:10:14,676 --> 00:10:18,076 Speaker 1: over and what we don't. So if you ask me, 195 00:10:18,636 --> 00:10:23,156 Speaker 1: do we have control over the thoughts that pop into 196 00:10:23,196 --> 00:10:25,796 Speaker 1: our heads at different moments in our life, I would 197 00:10:25,836 --> 00:10:28,236 Speaker 1: say I know of no evidence that suggests that we 198 00:10:28,356 --> 00:10:32,956 Speaker 1: can precisely control that experience. The flip side to that is, 199 00:10:33,516 --> 00:10:38,636 Speaker 1: once the thought is activated, then we have enormous control. 200 00:10:39,076 --> 00:10:41,436 Speaker 1: We can open up our toolbox at that point in time, 201 00:10:41,516 --> 00:10:44,396 Speaker 1: and we can push that thought around in all sorts 202 00:10:44,396 --> 00:10:48,316 Speaker 1: of ways to amplify it, as we sometimes do when 203 00:10:48,316 --> 00:10:51,316 Speaker 1: we go down the rabbit hole of chatter, to minimize it, 204 00:10:51,756 --> 00:10:55,796 Speaker 1: to transform it, to replace it with other thoughts. We'll 205 00:10:55,836 --> 00:10:58,076 Speaker 1: find out just how to climb out of the rabbit 206 00:10:58,116 --> 00:11:01,316 Speaker 1: hole of negative thoughts when the happiness lab returns in 207 00:11:01,356 --> 00:11:10,436 Speaker 1: a moment. You know, it's particularly frustrating about negative self 208 00:11:10,436 --> 00:11:12,876 Speaker 1: talk when we're like beating ourselves up. Is that even 209 00:11:12,916 --> 00:11:15,076 Speaker 1: people that you would think have absolutely no reason to 210 00:11:15,116 --> 00:11:17,556 Speaker 1: beat themselves up wind up beating themselves up. I just 211 00:11:17,596 --> 00:11:20,876 Speaker 1: had this amazing conversation with Malala, you know, Nobel Peace 212 00:11:20,876 --> 00:11:24,756 Speaker 1: Prize winning global women's race activist, who I thought should 213 00:11:25,036 --> 00:11:27,316 Speaker 1: be brushing her shoulders off of feeling like she's done 214 00:11:27,316 --> 00:11:29,356 Speaker 1: amazing work and could kind of chill out with the 215 00:11:29,476 --> 00:11:32,556 Speaker 1: negative self talk. But what's amazing is she talks to 216 00:11:32,556 --> 00:11:35,036 Speaker 1: herself in a guilty way too. She thinks, oh, I'm 217 00:11:35,036 --> 00:11:37,036 Speaker 1: not doing enough, or I should be doing more, I'm 218 00:11:37,076 --> 00:11:39,476 Speaker 1: not doing the right stuff. And that was humbling for 219 00:11:39,516 --> 00:11:42,116 Speaker 1: me because it made me realize even people who have 220 00:11:42,196 --> 00:11:45,116 Speaker 1: absolutely no reason to be beating themselves up are kind 221 00:11:45,116 --> 00:11:47,596 Speaker 1: of beating themselves up with their chatter. Yeah. I love 222 00:11:47,636 --> 00:11:50,556 Speaker 1: that example. I think number one, it speaks to this 223 00:11:50,636 --> 00:11:54,116 Speaker 1: idea of normalizing this experience. When people tell me they 224 00:11:54,156 --> 00:11:57,156 Speaker 1: experienced chatter, one of the first things I tell them is, 225 00:11:57,436 --> 00:12:01,676 Speaker 1: welcome to the human condition. Congratulations. Malala is a great 226 00:12:01,996 --> 00:12:04,916 Speaker 1: example to bring up, though, because although she may experienced 227 00:12:04,916 --> 00:12:06,396 Speaker 1: a lot of negative self talking and I didn't know 228 00:12:06,436 --> 00:12:09,916 Speaker 1: that about her, she also appears to be pready adept 229 00:12:10,116 --> 00:12:13,796 Speaker 1: at using psychological tools to manage it. Maybe she's reading 230 00:12:13,836 --> 00:12:17,156 Speaker 1: some of our research. I don't know, but but actually, 231 00:12:17,156 --> 00:12:19,956 Speaker 1: one of my favorite examples that I'll often present to 232 00:12:19,996 --> 00:12:23,276 Speaker 1: audiences comes from Alala. What I'm talking about here as 233 00:12:23,316 --> 00:12:26,676 Speaker 1: a tool called distanced self talk, and it's really simple. 234 00:12:26,876 --> 00:12:30,756 Speaker 1: It involves trying to coach yourself through a problem, think 235 00:12:30,796 --> 00:12:34,996 Speaker 1: it through using your own name and or the second 236 00:12:35,036 --> 00:12:37,796 Speaker 1: person pronoun you. So. Right around the time that she 237 00:12:37,836 --> 00:12:40,876 Speaker 1: won the Nobel Peace Prize, she went on The Daily 238 00:12:40,876 --> 00:12:43,996 Speaker 1: Show with John Stewart to do an interview, and during 239 00:12:43,996 --> 00:12:47,116 Speaker 1: that interview, John Stewart asked her about what she had 240 00:12:47,116 --> 00:12:52,436 Speaker 1: went through. When did you realize the Taliban had made 241 00:12:52,476 --> 00:12:55,196 Speaker 1: you a target? In twenty twelve, I was with my 242 00:12:55,276 --> 00:12:57,836 Speaker 1: father and someone came in And she went on to 243 00:12:57,916 --> 00:13:02,436 Speaker 1: narrate her internal monologue when she discovered that the Taliban 244 00:13:02,476 --> 00:13:05,116 Speaker 1: were plotting to kill her. And if you listen to 245 00:13:05,156 --> 00:13:08,876 Speaker 1: the word she uses to describe her experience, she starts 246 00:13:08,876 --> 00:13:11,676 Speaker 1: off in the first person, and I used to think 247 00:13:11,716 --> 00:13:14,676 Speaker 1: that the tale would come and he would kill me. 248 00:13:15,116 --> 00:13:20,676 Speaker 1: She is contemplating the most stressful, frightening experience any human 249 00:13:20,716 --> 00:13:25,156 Speaker 1: being could possibly imagine. She's all first person, filled with emotion, 250 00:13:25,796 --> 00:13:28,836 Speaker 1: and then when she gets to the potential climax if 251 00:13:28,836 --> 00:13:32,396 Speaker 1: he comes, what would you do, Malala? She automatically switches 252 00:13:32,756 --> 00:13:36,836 Speaker 1: to using her name to coach herself through that situation, 253 00:13:37,196 --> 00:13:39,796 Speaker 1: like she would give advice to someone else, Malana, just 254 00:13:39,956 --> 00:13:42,956 Speaker 1: take a shoe and hit him. One of the things 255 00:13:42,996 --> 00:13:46,636 Speaker 1: we've learned through lots of research is that we're much 256 00:13:46,676 --> 00:13:49,436 Speaker 1: better at giving advice to other people than we are 257 00:13:49,916 --> 00:13:53,596 Speaker 1: giving ourselves advice, and so we've evolved the ability to 258 00:13:53,636 --> 00:13:56,396 Speaker 1: do that for ourselves through these different distancing tools, and 259 00:13:56,556 --> 00:14:00,436 Speaker 1: language is one way of helping us switch perspectives. It's 260 00:14:00,476 --> 00:14:02,596 Speaker 1: just putting us into that mindset of now I'm an 261 00:14:02,636 --> 00:14:06,196 Speaker 1: advisory mode, and that often makes it much easier for 262 00:14:06,196 --> 00:14:08,636 Speaker 1: people to work through their problems. You've also found that 263 00:14:08,676 --> 00:14:11,116 Speaker 1: this tool doesn't just help us hear the advice, but 264 00:14:11,156 --> 00:14:13,596 Speaker 1: we actually follow it right. There's lots of evidence of it. 265 00:14:13,636 --> 00:14:16,996 Speaker 1: When you use this sort of linguistic distancing, you do better, 266 00:14:16,996 --> 00:14:18,916 Speaker 1: you eat healthier, and so as tell me some of 267 00:14:18,916 --> 00:14:21,396 Speaker 1: the benefits that we get out of using this tool. Well, 268 00:14:21,436 --> 00:14:25,156 Speaker 1: so what the tool does is in stressful situations, it 269 00:14:25,196 --> 00:14:30,316 Speaker 1: transforms the way people think about a stressful experience. You 270 00:14:30,316 --> 00:14:33,836 Speaker 1: can appraise the situation as as something that you can't handle, 271 00:14:33,876 --> 00:14:35,636 Speaker 1: like oh my god, I'm never going to be able 272 00:14:35,636 --> 00:14:38,756 Speaker 1: to do this, or you can appraise it as something 273 00:14:38,756 --> 00:14:41,276 Speaker 1: that you can manage, like, yeah, I can do this. 274 00:14:41,316 --> 00:14:44,276 Speaker 1: I've done this before. I mean, Laurie, when people have 275 00:14:44,396 --> 00:14:49,436 Speaker 1: come to you and they are facing objectively stressful circumstances, 276 00:14:49,916 --> 00:14:52,236 Speaker 1: how many times have you told them I don't think 277 00:14:52,316 --> 00:14:55,156 Speaker 1: you can do it? Like, can you just top of 278 00:14:55,196 --> 00:14:57,196 Speaker 1: mind think about a lot of those situations? Is that 279 00:14:57,236 --> 00:14:59,436 Speaker 1: what you tend to tell people. I would have been 280 00:14:59,516 --> 00:15:01,756 Speaker 1: kicked out from my residential college had rule a long 281 00:15:01,796 --> 00:15:04,916 Speaker 1: time ago. I like, oh, I guess this is impossible. Sorry. Yeah, 282 00:15:04,956 --> 00:15:08,036 Speaker 1: I mean, you're actually the perfect person to ask this question, 283 00:15:08,276 --> 00:15:11,316 Speaker 1: because you're getting ping quite a bit with questions like this. 284 00:15:11,916 --> 00:15:13,836 Speaker 1: Am I making a leap to say that you are 285 00:15:14,076 --> 00:15:17,956 Speaker 1: often trying to frame what students are facing as a 286 00:15:18,076 --> 00:15:23,676 Speaker 1: challenge and then realistically marshaling evidence that supports the idea 287 00:15:23,676 --> 00:15:26,516 Speaker 1: that they can manage it is at a fair appraisal totally. 288 00:15:26,516 --> 00:15:28,076 Speaker 1: But what's amazing is when I do it in my 289 00:15:28,116 --> 00:15:31,196 Speaker 1: own head to myself, that is rarely the direction I go. 290 00:15:31,276 --> 00:15:34,396 Speaker 1: It's really like, Oh, what an opportunity that I'm facing. Yeah, 291 00:15:34,396 --> 00:15:36,596 Speaker 1: Instead it's like, oh my god, how am I going 292 00:15:36,676 --> 00:15:39,316 Speaker 1: to deal with this? That's because we get zoomed in. 293 00:15:39,716 --> 00:15:42,876 Speaker 1: So when we experience trust, we zoom in so narrowly 294 00:15:42,916 --> 00:15:46,236 Speaker 1: on the emotional elements of the experience that often drive 295 00:15:46,316 --> 00:15:50,116 Speaker 1: our insecurities and fears and worries. But when we zoom 296 00:15:50,116 --> 00:15:53,316 Speaker 1: out and we think about ourselves from that more objective standpoint, 297 00:15:53,396 --> 00:15:55,756 Speaker 1: like we were thinking about someone else, we can often 298 00:15:55,876 --> 00:15:59,836 Speaker 1: find solutions to our problems and ways of making sense 299 00:15:59,876 --> 00:16:03,476 Speaker 1: of them that are often much better than the alternative, 300 00:16:03,516 --> 00:16:05,876 Speaker 1: which is, you know, I'm going to give the talk, 301 00:16:06,316 --> 00:16:09,596 Speaker 1: it's going to go terrible, I'm going to lose my job, 302 00:16:09,836 --> 00:16:13,116 Speaker 1: followed by prison and soon after death. Like that's the 303 00:16:13,636 --> 00:16:17,036 Speaker 1: that's the chain, right, and it's not hard to dispute 304 00:16:17,116 --> 00:16:21,116 Speaker 1: that illogical, irrational chain of events when you're looking at 305 00:16:21,116 --> 00:16:24,476 Speaker 1: that big picture from a more objective standpoint. That is 306 00:16:24,476 --> 00:16:28,036 Speaker 1: what distancing helps people do and the linguistic shifts I 307 00:16:28,076 --> 00:16:31,316 Speaker 1: describe before. That's one way of doing it. Another easy 308 00:16:31,356 --> 00:16:34,316 Speaker 1: tool is something that goes by a few different names 309 00:16:34,596 --> 00:16:38,916 Speaker 1: mental time travel, temporal distancing, or in my mind, Ethan's 310 00:16:38,916 --> 00:16:41,556 Speaker 1: two am chatter strategy. I told you I would refer 311 00:16:41,636 --> 00:16:45,036 Speaker 1: to that for me every four to six weeks. It 312 00:16:45,436 --> 00:16:48,556 Speaker 1: has that regularity. I will wake up at two am, 313 00:16:48,876 --> 00:16:51,796 Speaker 1: eyes wide open. I don't know why it happens, but 314 00:16:51,876 --> 00:16:55,916 Speaker 1: there's chatter, there's a thought that, oh my god, what 315 00:16:55,956 --> 00:16:58,956 Speaker 1: am I going to do? And prior to knowing about 316 00:16:58,996 --> 00:17:00,356 Speaker 1: the research that I'm going to tell you about in 317 00:17:00,356 --> 00:17:04,836 Speaker 1: a second. This actually was quite disruptive because it kept 318 00:17:04,876 --> 00:17:07,636 Speaker 1: me up. It didn't feel good. It created to personal 319 00:17:07,636 --> 00:17:10,596 Speaker 1: problems because I'd start, you know, moving around in the bed, 320 00:17:10,756 --> 00:17:13,236 Speaker 1: jostling with my iPad. My wife would elbow me, why 321 00:17:13,236 --> 00:17:15,596 Speaker 1: are you moving now? I'm awake, like, you know, all 322 00:17:15,956 --> 00:17:19,396 Speaker 1: very reasonable. The next day would be terrible. I'm guessing 323 00:17:19,556 --> 00:17:22,396 Speaker 1: you've experienced this before. Yes, yes, this is like you're 324 00:17:22,436 --> 00:17:24,716 Speaker 1: in my bedroom, which is a little creepy, but you know, okay, well, 325 00:17:25,556 --> 00:17:28,036 Speaker 1: all right, we will go that. But also, like the 326 00:17:28,036 --> 00:17:30,636 Speaker 1: interpersonal stuff, it's a trivial people like their sleep, and 327 00:17:30,956 --> 00:17:34,276 Speaker 1: so I don't fault my wife. So when that happens now, 328 00:17:34,756 --> 00:17:38,476 Speaker 1: I instantly have a go to response that I implement 329 00:17:38,756 --> 00:17:42,276 Speaker 1: without thinking, because I've created a plan. I ask myself, 330 00:17:42,636 --> 00:17:44,676 Speaker 1: use my own name, Ethan, how are you going to 331 00:17:44,716 --> 00:17:47,996 Speaker 1: feel about this tomorrow morning? No matter what the chatter 332 00:17:48,196 --> 00:17:52,076 Speaker 1: is at two am, and sometimes it can feel absolutely suffocating, 333 00:17:52,636 --> 00:17:55,636 Speaker 1: I always feel better about that experience the next morning, 334 00:17:55,676 --> 00:17:59,356 Speaker 1: when I'm fully awake, have access to all my cognitive resources. 335 00:18:00,356 --> 00:18:03,036 Speaker 1: If that doesn't take the edge off sufficiently, I'll go 336 00:18:03,156 --> 00:18:04,996 Speaker 1: further out in time. How are you going to feel 337 00:18:04,996 --> 00:18:08,116 Speaker 1: about this next week or next month or when you're retired. 338 00:18:09,196 --> 00:18:12,076 Speaker 1: I'm doing is I'm traveling in time in my mind. 339 00:18:12,116 --> 00:18:16,756 Speaker 1: I'm zooming out. I'm broadening my perspective through mental time travel. 340 00:18:17,276 --> 00:18:21,276 Speaker 1: And what that does is it makes clear for me that, 341 00:18:21,556 --> 00:18:25,996 Speaker 1: however awful what I'm experiencing in that moment, is it 342 00:18:26,036 --> 00:18:30,236 Speaker 1: will eventually get better. Because most emotional experiences that we've 343 00:18:30,236 --> 00:18:33,916 Speaker 1: had in our lives, they come, sometimes they stick around 344 00:18:33,916 --> 00:18:36,756 Speaker 1: for a while, but they eventually do subside. Like the 345 00:18:36,876 --> 00:18:40,356 Speaker 1: stuff that I really ruminated about when I had like 346 00:18:40,436 --> 00:18:43,756 Speaker 1: you pimples and I was getting rejected in high school 347 00:18:43,796 --> 00:18:47,356 Speaker 1: and all that good stuff. It faded eventually, right as 348 00:18:47,396 --> 00:18:49,996 Speaker 1: of other things coming God. And so by traveling in 349 00:18:50,076 --> 00:18:54,556 Speaker 1: time in your mind, you remind yourself that our chatter experiences, 350 00:18:54,676 --> 00:18:57,036 Speaker 1: as awful as they are, they are unstable, they will 351 00:18:57,076 --> 00:19:01,676 Speaker 1: eventually fade. They're impermanent. And that does something really powerful 352 00:19:02,116 --> 00:19:04,476 Speaker 1: for someone mire to chatter. That gives us hope, and 353 00:19:04,516 --> 00:19:07,836 Speaker 1: that hope is a powerful antidote. So far, Ethan has 354 00:19:07,836 --> 00:19:11,316 Speaker 1: shared his top techniques creating distance between ourselves and our 355 00:19:11,356 --> 00:19:14,396 Speaker 1: negative thoughts. But what about the second part of Buttery 356 00:19:14,436 --> 00:19:18,116 Speaker 1: Brannigan's question, how do I learn to love myself again? 357 00:19:18,876 --> 00:19:21,396 Speaker 1: We'll be back with answers to that. When the Happiness 358 00:19:21,436 --> 00:19:24,276 Speaker 1: Lab returns in a moment, you say that it's so soothing. 359 00:19:24,316 --> 00:19:34,556 Speaker 1: It's like I'm listening to you on the radio. I 360 00:19:34,636 --> 00:19:36,956 Speaker 1: wanted to get to the second half of Buttery's question, 361 00:19:37,276 --> 00:19:39,756 Speaker 1: how do I finally love myself? And it feels like 362 00:19:39,756 --> 00:19:42,356 Speaker 1: if I introspect on my own self talk sometimes it's 363 00:19:42,396 --> 00:19:45,956 Speaker 1: ruminating about some problem, but there's often some like blame 364 00:19:46,036 --> 00:19:48,676 Speaker 1: when I'm thinking about that problem, like I screwed up, 365 00:19:48,796 --> 00:19:51,396 Speaker 1: I suck, I'm really bad at this, Like there's this 366 00:19:51,556 --> 00:19:54,316 Speaker 1: negative self focus to a lot of the chatter too, 367 00:19:54,596 --> 00:19:56,956 Speaker 1: and this probably isn't unique to me and Buttery. I 368 00:19:56,956 --> 00:19:59,116 Speaker 1: feel like there's lots of evidence that we can be 369 00:19:59,196 --> 00:20:02,596 Speaker 1: kind of downright mean to ourselves in our chatter, right absolutely, 370 00:20:02,836 --> 00:20:05,596 Speaker 1: you know, I would say the meanest in very very 371 00:20:05,636 --> 00:20:09,516 Speaker 1: small doses can probably be instructive in the sense that 372 00:20:09,996 --> 00:20:13,996 Speaker 1: it is okay to be a little bit critical of ourselves. 373 00:20:14,076 --> 00:20:18,676 Speaker 1: It is okay to experience a little bit of shame 374 00:20:18,916 --> 00:20:22,276 Speaker 1: or embarrassment or regret. Now, I don't think that's what 375 00:20:22,276 --> 00:20:25,236 Speaker 1: we're talking about with Buttery's example, of course, she's talking 376 00:20:25,276 --> 00:20:29,916 Speaker 1: about the more chronic, negative internal monologue that can be 377 00:20:30,596 --> 00:20:33,596 Speaker 1: a real downer. And so when it comes to how 378 00:20:33,636 --> 00:20:37,476 Speaker 1: do you change the tone of your inner monologue, some 379 00:20:37,516 --> 00:20:39,996 Speaker 1: of the same tools that we talked about as being 380 00:20:40,076 --> 00:20:44,756 Speaker 1: useful for zipping us out of rumination are also helpful there. 381 00:20:44,996 --> 00:20:48,196 Speaker 1: For example, to give ourselves advice like we would give 382 00:20:48,196 --> 00:20:50,156 Speaker 1: advice to your friends and use your name to do it, 383 00:20:50,236 --> 00:20:53,156 Speaker 1: that can be really helpful. Turns out, when you transfer 384 00:20:53,196 --> 00:20:55,596 Speaker 1: from thinking about experience as a threat, oh my god, 385 00:20:55,636 --> 00:20:57,956 Speaker 1: I can't manage just to yeah, this is something that 386 00:20:57,996 --> 00:21:01,596 Speaker 1: you can deal with that's changing the nature of our 387 00:21:01,636 --> 00:21:04,916 Speaker 1: internal conversations that we have with ourselves. Another strategy you've 388 00:21:04,956 --> 00:21:08,276 Speaker 1: talked about in regards to that is not just coaching 389 00:21:08,316 --> 00:21:11,356 Speaker 1: yourself through linguistic use, as though you were a kind 390 00:21:11,476 --> 00:21:14,796 Speaker 1: coach another wise person out there, but literally taking the 391 00:21:14,836 --> 00:21:18,076 Speaker 1: perspective of a different wise person. And this tends to 392 00:21:18,116 --> 00:21:20,516 Speaker 1: be my go to strategy when I'm beating myself up 393 00:21:20,556 --> 00:21:22,956 Speaker 1: like a drill sergeant inside my brain, it's to say, 394 00:21:23,196 --> 00:21:25,796 Speaker 1: what would a kind friend say to me? Or you know, 395 00:21:25,836 --> 00:21:28,556 Speaker 1: what would Beyonce do? Beyonce wouldn't beating herself up. And 396 00:21:28,596 --> 00:21:31,716 Speaker 1: so talk a little bit about this strategy of literally 397 00:21:31,756 --> 00:21:34,516 Speaker 1: simulating a wise other person and why it's so powerful. 398 00:21:35,116 --> 00:21:38,116 Speaker 1: So this this deals with activating like an alter ego 399 00:21:38,276 --> 00:21:41,556 Speaker 1: of sorts, and it's another way of switching perspectives, getting 400 00:21:41,596 --> 00:21:45,076 Speaker 1: some space. And the trick with this strategy is you 401 00:21:45,196 --> 00:21:49,476 Speaker 1: want to activate the right alter ego. So if I'm 402 00:21:49,476 --> 00:21:53,836 Speaker 1: really struggling with a problem, I don't want to who 403 00:21:53,876 --> 00:21:56,116 Speaker 1: would be a really bad person to activate? I got 404 00:21:56,116 --> 00:21:58,556 Speaker 1: to be careful here, many people might be listening. No, 405 00:21:58,636 --> 00:22:00,516 Speaker 1: it's true, really, you know, because because the person we 406 00:22:00,596 --> 00:22:04,556 Speaker 1: sometimes activate is some like horrible drill sergeant. Or the 407 00:22:04,596 --> 00:22:08,756 Speaker 1: canonical example is a parent. It's apparent that is overly 408 00:22:08,836 --> 00:22:12,196 Speaker 1: credit goal and hostile and disparaging, and you're hearing their 409 00:22:12,316 --> 00:22:14,076 Speaker 1: voice in your head, which is bringing you further down 410 00:22:14,836 --> 00:22:17,556 Speaker 1: when the goal is to lift us up and boost 411 00:22:17,636 --> 00:22:20,716 Speaker 1: the esteem. That's not who That's not the voice you 412 00:22:20,716 --> 00:22:22,636 Speaker 1: want to hear in your head. The voice you want 413 00:22:22,636 --> 00:22:25,716 Speaker 1: to hear is that supportive coach. And I remind people 414 00:22:25,756 --> 00:22:30,516 Speaker 1: that when you say supportive coach, it like, my most 415 00:22:30,636 --> 00:22:35,316 Speaker 1: memorable coaches and advisors were not people who only patted 416 00:22:35,316 --> 00:22:37,276 Speaker 1: my back and told me that it would be okay. 417 00:22:37,556 --> 00:22:41,516 Speaker 1: They did do that, but they also gave me really 418 00:22:41,556 --> 00:22:44,476 Speaker 1: good feedback at times and said no, yeah, you can 419 00:22:44,596 --> 00:22:46,756 Speaker 1: do this better and here's how so. So they were 420 00:22:46,796 --> 00:22:50,436 Speaker 1: being in touch with reality, but in a very supportive way. 421 00:22:50,876 --> 00:22:54,876 Speaker 1: Another thing that we find is very effective is normalizing 422 00:22:54,916 --> 00:22:58,076 Speaker 1: our experience, right. I think it is often when we're 423 00:22:58,076 --> 00:23:00,956 Speaker 1: experiencing chatter and we're stuck. Also in those just really 424 00:23:01,036 --> 00:23:04,276 Speaker 1: negative dialogues with ourselves, it's very easy for us to 425 00:23:04,276 --> 00:23:07,116 Speaker 1: feel like we're all alone and no one else is 426 00:23:07,156 --> 00:23:10,156 Speaker 1: experiencing this kind of negative vity, and is this hard 427 00:23:10,196 --> 00:23:13,036 Speaker 1: on themselves. What we find is when you get a 428 00:23:13,076 --> 00:23:16,796 Speaker 1: person to recognize that what they're experiencing is common to 429 00:23:17,036 --> 00:23:21,876 Speaker 1: many many others, that can have really useful properties. I 430 00:23:21,956 --> 00:23:24,716 Speaker 1: think a beautiful thing about this show and the work 431 00:23:24,796 --> 00:23:26,316 Speaker 1: you do, Laurie. And this is not because you're in 432 00:23:26,356 --> 00:23:27,956 Speaker 1: front of me, but I've said this to others, is 433 00:23:28,836 --> 00:23:31,596 Speaker 1: what the Happiness Lab helps do. I think for many 434 00:23:31,636 --> 00:23:35,836 Speaker 1: people's it normalizes at some points dark side of our 435 00:23:35,836 --> 00:23:39,076 Speaker 1: emotional lives and tells us how we can manage that 436 00:23:39,156 --> 00:23:41,796 Speaker 1: a little bit better. But in having that discussion, it 437 00:23:41,836 --> 00:23:44,076 Speaker 1: makes it clear that we all suffer from this muck 438 00:23:44,236 --> 00:23:47,196 Speaker 1: at times. It's a part of the human condition, and 439 00:23:47,276 --> 00:23:51,116 Speaker 1: reminding ourselves of that alone can be really powerful, especially 440 00:23:51,116 --> 00:23:53,876 Speaker 1: when you do it in really specific situations. You and 441 00:23:53,916 --> 00:23:57,356 Speaker 1: I are having my first ever podcast conversation in my 442 00:23:57,436 --> 00:23:59,956 Speaker 1: new podcast studio. I'm actually in a closet that I've 443 00:23:59,996 --> 00:24:02,156 Speaker 1: just designed, but that means I've just spent the last 444 00:24:02,196 --> 00:24:05,236 Speaker 1: two weeks moving and it's been filled with a host 445 00:24:05,236 --> 00:24:07,916 Speaker 1: of negative emotions. I've been grouchy, I've been feeling like 446 00:24:08,036 --> 00:24:11,276 Speaker 1: nostalgic and weep, and I keep in my head reminding 447 00:24:11,316 --> 00:24:14,556 Speaker 1: myself that moving is the third biggest life stressor after 448 00:24:14,636 --> 00:24:17,276 Speaker 1: death of a family member, divorce. Everyone feels this way 449 00:24:17,276 --> 00:24:20,516 Speaker 1: when they move. There is not something particularly wrong with you, Laurie, 450 00:24:20,876 --> 00:24:23,636 Speaker 1: this is just what happens when you move, and that's 451 00:24:23,676 --> 00:24:26,836 Speaker 1: been so essential for me, not you know, breaking down 452 00:24:26,836 --> 00:24:29,396 Speaker 1: with you in the middle of podcast, I'll share another 453 00:24:29,396 --> 00:24:31,836 Speaker 1: experience like that. When I was writing my book. No 454 00:24:31,876 --> 00:24:34,236 Speaker 1: one told me this, but writing a book is a 455 00:24:34,316 --> 00:24:38,836 Speaker 1: potentially chatter vulnerable experience. I mean, you're you're doing a 456 00:24:38,876 --> 00:24:43,156 Speaker 1: lot of original work and putting it out there for many, 457 00:24:43,236 --> 00:24:47,756 Speaker 1: many people to consume and evaluate, and there was all 458 00:24:47,836 --> 00:24:51,116 Speaker 1: sorts of chatter that I did not expect and actually, 459 00:24:51,196 --> 00:24:55,076 Speaker 1: just reminding myself that many first time authors go through 460 00:24:55,076 --> 00:24:59,596 Speaker 1: this was tremendously alleviating. And so I shared that experience. 461 00:24:59,636 --> 00:25:03,116 Speaker 1: So that brings us back to this idea that normalizing 462 00:25:03,116 --> 00:25:06,556 Speaker 1: our experiences can be really powerful, which actually, and this 463 00:25:06,676 --> 00:25:09,756 Speaker 1: wasn't planned, but it is a great segue to another 464 00:25:09,836 --> 00:25:13,196 Speaker 1: category of tools. And the category that I'm talking about 465 00:25:13,396 --> 00:25:17,956 Speaker 1: is other people. So other people can be a remarkable 466 00:25:18,036 --> 00:25:20,556 Speaker 1: tool for us when it comes to our chatter, but 467 00:25:20,676 --> 00:25:25,956 Speaker 1: they can also be a tremendous, tremendous tremendous vulnerability. And 468 00:25:26,436 --> 00:25:29,996 Speaker 1: what's really tragic here is the way that many of 469 00:25:30,076 --> 00:25:34,076 Speaker 1: us try to activate the tool of other people isn't 470 00:25:34,116 --> 00:25:38,476 Speaker 1: always optimal. So there is this strong belief in our 471 00:25:38,556 --> 00:25:41,436 Speaker 1: culture that when you're experiencing chatter, what you want to 472 00:25:41,436 --> 00:25:45,636 Speaker 1: do is share your emotions with others, express vent. I 473 00:25:45,956 --> 00:25:49,796 Speaker 1: don't keep it bottled up inside. This notion of venting 474 00:25:49,836 --> 00:25:52,956 Speaker 1: as a tool. It goes way back, Like Aristotle talked 475 00:25:52,956 --> 00:25:56,956 Speaker 1: about it. What we have learned about venting is that 476 00:25:57,436 --> 00:26:01,876 Speaker 1: venting your chatter can be really good for strengthening the 477 00:26:01,996 --> 00:26:05,916 Speaker 1: friendship and relational bonds between two people. The fact that 478 00:26:05,956 --> 00:26:08,716 Speaker 1: you can call me up and complain to me about 479 00:26:08,756 --> 00:26:12,076 Speaker 1: something that happen which is on your mind, and I'm there, 480 00:26:12,156 --> 00:26:15,356 Speaker 1: I'm willing to listen and empathically connect and hear you out. 481 00:26:15,436 --> 00:26:17,996 Speaker 1: That's very good for our relationship. You will be more 482 00:26:18,036 --> 00:26:20,276 Speaker 1: likely to call me again knowing that I'm there for you. 483 00:26:20,756 --> 00:26:24,716 Speaker 1: But if all I do on the phone call is oh, Laurie, 484 00:26:24,716 --> 00:26:27,756 Speaker 1: that sounds terrible. Really, they said that I can't believe 485 00:26:27,796 --> 00:26:31,236 Speaker 1: what did you do? How do you feel? I'm so sorry? 486 00:26:31,356 --> 00:26:34,796 Speaker 1: That's really bad. If that's all we do, you leave 487 00:26:34,836 --> 00:26:38,956 Speaker 1: that conversation, feeling really good about our relationship, but we 488 00:26:39,036 --> 00:26:42,516 Speaker 1: haven't talked about anything that's actually helping you deal with 489 00:26:42,556 --> 00:26:46,356 Speaker 1: the chatter. The key to getting good chatter support is 490 00:26:46,396 --> 00:26:48,636 Speaker 1: to find people to talk to who do two things. 491 00:26:49,196 --> 00:26:51,476 Speaker 1: They do take the time to listen and hear you out. 492 00:26:52,156 --> 00:26:55,676 Speaker 1: Establishing those friendship relational bonds really helpful. But at a 493 00:26:55,756 --> 00:26:59,396 Speaker 1: certain point in the conversation, they help broaden your perspective, 494 00:26:59,676 --> 00:27:02,996 Speaker 1: they help normalize your experience. That's the formula for what 495 00:27:03,076 --> 00:27:05,636 Speaker 1: I call a good chatter advisor. And I think we'd 496 00:27:05,636 --> 00:27:07,636 Speaker 1: all be a lot better off if we thought really 497 00:27:07,676 --> 00:27:11,036 Speaker 1: carefully about who those people are in our lives. Who 498 00:27:11,076 --> 00:27:13,756 Speaker 1: are the three or four people that you can call 499 00:27:14,156 --> 00:27:16,676 Speaker 1: when you're experiencing chatter who do both of those things 500 00:27:16,716 --> 00:27:19,036 Speaker 1: for you? And so this relates to a final question 501 00:27:19,076 --> 00:27:21,756 Speaker 1: I wanted to get in from a different listener, Olga Habri, 502 00:27:22,356 --> 00:27:24,956 Speaker 1: who wanted to talk a little bit about toxic positivity, 503 00:27:25,316 --> 00:27:27,116 Speaker 1: but not in the way I expected. She wanted to 504 00:27:27,116 --> 00:27:31,116 Speaker 1: talk about toxic positivity in the context of giving chatter advice, 505 00:27:31,556 --> 00:27:33,716 Speaker 1: and she notes when someone else is feeling bad, the 506 00:27:33,756 --> 00:27:36,836 Speaker 1: automatic response is usually something to the effect of it'll 507 00:27:36,836 --> 00:27:39,196 Speaker 1: be fine or look on the bright side. It feels 508 00:27:39,316 --> 00:27:41,996 Speaker 1: terrible when someone doesn't want to acknowledge how you feel 509 00:27:42,036 --> 00:27:44,756 Speaker 1: and just wants to paint over your sadness with fake happiness. 510 00:27:45,556 --> 00:27:47,556 Speaker 1: And then she goes on to note that I read 511 00:27:47,556 --> 00:27:50,916 Speaker 1: somewhere that toxic positivity can actually be selfish, that it's 512 00:27:50,996 --> 00:27:53,756 Speaker 1: your discomfort with someone else's discomfort and you kind of 513 00:27:53,756 --> 00:27:55,716 Speaker 1: want to say things to get them to stop being 514 00:27:55,796 --> 00:27:58,676 Speaker 1: so uncomfortable. And I feel like this is another spot 515 00:27:58,676 --> 00:28:01,836 Speaker 1: where we can go wrong. Where somebody comes to us 516 00:28:01,876 --> 00:28:04,876 Speaker 1: with like, please help me with my chatter, we say like, oh, no, no, no, 517 00:28:04,916 --> 00:28:06,716 Speaker 1: it's fine, just get over it, you know, look on 518 00:28:06,756 --> 00:28:08,916 Speaker 1: the bright side kind of thing, and then that doesn't 519 00:28:09,756 --> 00:28:12,316 Speaker 1: help either. We need more parts to it than that, right, 520 00:28:12,956 --> 00:28:16,716 Speaker 1: we want to be positive and supportive. That is important, 521 00:28:17,116 --> 00:28:21,076 Speaker 1: but we don't want that to gloss over the need 522 00:28:21,516 --> 00:28:26,596 Speaker 1: to actually provide important feedback and support. Sometimes people don't 523 00:28:26,636 --> 00:28:30,036 Speaker 1: want to hear just the positive stuff. I think it's 524 00:28:30,116 --> 00:28:34,556 Speaker 1: really important in these interpersonal contexts to recognize that this 525 00:28:34,636 --> 00:28:37,076 Speaker 1: is a dance between two people. Right. What I mean 526 00:28:37,116 --> 00:28:39,356 Speaker 1: by that is you want to feel out the person 527 00:28:39,396 --> 00:28:41,676 Speaker 1: in the situation, depending on who the person is and 528 00:28:41,716 --> 00:28:44,796 Speaker 1: what the problem is. Sometimes it can be obvious, like 529 00:28:44,916 --> 00:28:47,156 Speaker 1: when I'm talking with someone I know really well. Sometimes 530 00:28:47,196 --> 00:28:49,676 Speaker 1: I can just read the situation. I see my opening 531 00:28:49,916 --> 00:28:52,716 Speaker 1: and I know when to go. Well, I have an idea, 532 00:28:52,796 --> 00:28:54,996 Speaker 1: let me share it with you. But if I'm not sure, 533 00:28:55,156 --> 00:28:58,876 Speaker 1: I will often explicitly ask. So sometimes I will ask 534 00:28:58,916 --> 00:29:01,076 Speaker 1: my wife when she comes to me, Hey, I have 535 00:29:01,116 --> 00:29:03,516 Speaker 1: a thought. Can I can I share with you what 536 00:29:03,676 --> 00:29:09,556 Speaker 1: I'm thinking? And sometimes you'd be like, no, just listening, 537 00:29:09,636 --> 00:29:11,836 Speaker 1: I'm not ready. I need to keep going. At other 538 00:29:11,876 --> 00:29:13,756 Speaker 1: points in time, she's like, yeah, please tell me what 539 00:29:13,796 --> 00:29:15,396 Speaker 1: you think. So you want to feel that out and 540 00:29:15,476 --> 00:29:18,156 Speaker 1: recognize that there is an art to doing this well. 541 00:29:18,716 --> 00:29:20,876 Speaker 1: One of the things I love in chatting with you 542 00:29:20,996 --> 00:29:23,436 Speaker 1: about chatter, Ethan, is that you're not just an expert 543 00:29:23,476 --> 00:29:26,276 Speaker 1: on this stuff. You use it in the trenches all 544 00:29:26,356 --> 00:29:29,236 Speaker 1: the time. Absolutely makes me honestly believe that it works 545 00:29:29,236 --> 00:29:31,796 Speaker 1: so well. You know, I really genuinely believe in this 546 00:29:31,836 --> 00:29:35,756 Speaker 1: stuff because I benefit from it. I hope you're able 547 00:29:35,756 --> 00:29:37,596 Speaker 1: to try out some of the tools that Ethan shared 548 00:29:37,596 --> 00:29:40,796 Speaker 1: in this episode. I've heard some of these strategies before, 549 00:29:41,036 --> 00:29:43,076 Speaker 1: but I know I'm still finding new ways to blend 550 00:29:43,116 --> 00:29:45,596 Speaker 1: them together. The next time I get caught in a 551 00:29:45,676 --> 00:29:48,876 Speaker 1: negative thought spiral at two am fretting over some problem, 552 00:29:48,916 --> 00:29:50,836 Speaker 1: I'm going to use the time travel tool to put 553 00:29:50,836 --> 00:29:53,796 Speaker 1: things in perspective. But this time I think I'll pair 554 00:29:53,876 --> 00:29:58,556 Speaker 1: it up with some distancing, coaching and socializing. I'll tell myself, Laurie, 555 00:29:58,636 --> 00:30:00,316 Speaker 1: how big a deal do you think this problem will 556 00:30:00,356 --> 00:30:04,076 Speaker 1: be by next week or next year? Probably not that big, right, 557 00:30:04,636 --> 00:30:06,876 Speaker 1: Let's think about which friend you can call tomorrow to 558 00:30:06,956 --> 00:30:09,756 Speaker 1: talk things through. I hope that'll be what I need 559 00:30:09,796 --> 00:30:12,116 Speaker 1: to quiet down the chatter enough to get some sleep 560 00:30:12,556 --> 00:30:14,716 Speaker 1: and dream up the topic for the next episode of 561 00:30:14,996 --> 00:30:20,756 Speaker 1: The Happiness Lab with me Doctor Laurie Santos. Big thanks 562 00:30:20,796 --> 00:30:24,036 Speaker 1: to writer Patricia Brannagan for sending in this week's listener question, 563 00:30:24,556 --> 00:30:27,956 Speaker 1: and special thanks to my expert guest Ethan Cross. If 564 00:30:27,956 --> 00:30:30,276 Speaker 1: you like the suggestions he gave us today, be sure 565 00:30:30,316 --> 00:30:32,836 Speaker 1: to check out his amazing book Chatter, The Voice in 566 00:30:32,836 --> 00:30:35,156 Speaker 1: Our Head, Why It Matters, and How to Harness It. 567 00:30:35,476 --> 00:30:37,676 Speaker 1: I'll be back next week with the final episode in 568 00:30:37,716 --> 00:30:41,596 Speaker 1: this Listener Questions mini season, we'll be exploring challenges we 569 00:30:41,636 --> 00:30:54,476 Speaker 1: all face to life after lockdown. The Happiness Lab is 570 00:30:54,516 --> 00:30:57,556 Speaker 1: co written and produced by Ryan Dilley, Emily Anne Vaughan, 571 00:30:57,836 --> 00:31:01,916 Speaker 1: and Courtney Guerino. Our original music was composed by Zachary Silver, 572 00:31:02,316 --> 00:31:06,316 Speaker 1: with additional scoring, mixing, and mastering by Evan Viola. Special 573 00:31:06,356 --> 00:31:11,316 Speaker 1: thanks to Milabelle Heather Fame, John Starr, Carlie Migliori, Christina Sullivan, 574 00:31:11,476 --> 00:31:16,156 Speaker 1: Brant Haynes, Maggie Taylor, Eric Sandler, Nicole Morano, Royston Preserve, 575 00:31:16,556 --> 00:31:20,796 Speaker 1: Jacob Weisberg, and my agent, Ben Davis. The Happiness Lab 576 00:31:20,876 --> 00:31:23,476 Speaker 1: is brought to you by Pushkin Industries and me Doctor 577 00:31:23,556 --> 00:31:27,276 Speaker 1: Laurie Santos. To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the 578 00:31:27,316 --> 00:31:31,996 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcasts,