1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, the production of 2 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 1: My Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 3 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:18,280 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And 4 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 1: on this podcast we never stopped doning. So it's Dune 5 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 1: yet again. This is part two of the Dune series 6 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 1: that we started earlier this week. So in the last 7 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:29,320 Speaker 1: episode we talked about the Bennie Jessert and a bit 8 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,920 Speaker 1: about the neuroscience of pain, and today we're here to 9 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:36,720 Speaker 1: talk about what more Bennie Jesser, maybe some Spacing Guild stuff. Yeah, 10 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:39,280 Speaker 1: that's right. We're going to pick up where we left 11 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:40,720 Speaker 1: off with the Bennie Jesser and then we're going to 12 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:44,959 Speaker 1: move on to the Spacing Guild. Um. And I think 13 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:47,040 Speaker 1: the place I'd like to start is to come back 14 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 1: to something we touched on in last episode, and that 15 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:52,960 Speaker 1: is the idea that the Bennie Jesser are chiefly concerned 16 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:57,520 Speaker 1: with politics right now. We offered some caveats about that 17 00:00:57,560 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 1: in the last episode, and that we often hear the 18 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 1: word politics and think of like electoral democratic politics. Uh, 19 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:06,840 Speaker 1: the political situation in the Done universe is is not 20 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: so lucky to have democratic electoral politics. They've got some 21 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:16,760 Speaker 1: kind of weird um hybrid uh technological feudalism that has 22 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:19,960 Speaker 1: like an an emperor on top. And then there are 23 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:24,760 Speaker 1: there's like an aristocracy of of landed nobles essentially houses 24 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:28,479 Speaker 1: who control planets as their fiefdoms. And then there's also 25 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:34,399 Speaker 1: a pretty large input from trade guilds, primarily the Spacing Guild, 26 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 1: which controls the monopoly over the the economy of interstellar travel. Yeah. So, um, yeah, 27 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:42,760 Speaker 1: if you need a if you need a refresh. Uh. 28 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:45,200 Speaker 1: Certainly we went over the world of Done in the 29 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:47,680 Speaker 1: last episode. Uh, so go back and listen to that 30 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: one if you you didn't have a chance to. So. 31 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 1: One of the books that I was looking at for 32 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 1: this was that was another fun um collection of Done essays. Uh. 33 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 1: The book titled un in Philosophy and in it philosophy 34 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 1: professor Jeffrey Nicholas who also edited the book. He examines 35 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:10,919 Speaker 1: the topic of the benegessriate in facing the gom Jabbar Test. 36 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:13,640 Speaker 1: He touches, you know, on the point that they that 37 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:16,959 Speaker 1: they make in this you know conversation between Paul and 38 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 1: the Reverend Mother that the Benigessa are concerned with politics. 39 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:22,800 Speaker 1: But uh, Nicholas points out that that what we're talking 40 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:28,200 Speaker 1: about here with politics is politics in Aristotle's sense of 41 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 1: the world word um, political science one of the three 42 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:37,960 Speaker 1: sciences he outlined, alongside contemplative science, which would have included 43 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:41,960 Speaker 1: both physics and metaphysics, and practical science. So there's a 44 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:44,920 Speaker 1: lot of talk about tripods uh in you know, in 45 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 1: the the order of things in Dune um and and 46 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 1: so in a way that kind of matches up I 47 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 1: guess very loosely with with Aristotle's three prompt approach to 48 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 1: understanding the universe. Man, I have not looked at that 49 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 1: philosophy of Dune book, but that sounds interesting. So does 50 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:03,680 Speaker 1: it get into like the what is the philosophical outlook 51 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:08,960 Speaker 1: of Baron Harconan and stuff? You know? And there's a 52 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:11,080 Speaker 1: lot of fun stuff and they there's definitely some hobbs, 53 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 1: I know, I'll touch on some hobs here in a bet, 54 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:16,920 Speaker 1: but there's also, um, there's also one let's see what 55 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:20,680 Speaker 1: is it? Uh? I think it's something like, you know, 56 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 1: basically like one article walks through the various houses and 57 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 1: factions and talks about how they would have been thought 58 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:29,400 Speaker 1: off by uh say Socrates or whoever. So it's it's 59 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:32,799 Speaker 1: a fun read. So you know, one of the things 60 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 1: about Aristotle is is that there is a there's a 61 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 1: quote that's often attributed to him, Uh, pretty famous to 62 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 1: the Aristotle quote, man is by nature a political animal. Yeah, 63 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 1: And I think this is an interesting quote, partially in 64 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 1: how I think it is often misunderstood because I think 65 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 1: a lot of times people take that quote to mean 66 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:56,320 Speaker 1: that that Aristotle was saying that man is the only 67 00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 1: political animal, which he does not mean. He actually mentioned 68 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:03,640 Speaker 1: other animals as political animals as well. Yeah. He he 69 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 1: also refers to, you know, use social insects and so 70 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:10,200 Speaker 1: forth as as being political animals. Again, one of the 71 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 1: reasons this is interesting to come back to this is 72 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 1: because the Benegestra are big about talking about the difference 73 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 1: between humans and animals, and given their focus on politics, 74 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:21,479 Speaker 1: we can't help it go in this direction. Okay, but 75 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 1: so what did he mean by saying this? Then? Well, 76 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 1: I was reading a little bit more about this, and 77 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:27,240 Speaker 1: apparently this is this is an area where you can 78 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 1: get into some amount of debate and we're not going 79 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 1: to go uh, there's this a certain amount of philosophical 80 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 1: back and forth on this. But I was looking at 81 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 1: a paper from Cheryl E. A Body, Uh and it 82 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 1: was the article Higher and Lower Political Animals, published in 83 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:47,039 Speaker 1: the Journal of Animal Ethics in two six and she 84 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:51,039 Speaker 1: writes that that Aristotle considered man's impulse towards partnership with 85 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 1: others to be the most important, and that it is 86 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 1: only through these partnerships that happiness is possible. Uh So, 87 00:04:57,320 --> 00:04:59,280 Speaker 1: I mean it sounds to me like you know, that 88 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:02,560 Speaker 1: means that, uh, the beneagess are all about happiness obviously, 89 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 1: um right right right right up there out and uh, 90 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:11,800 Speaker 1: Aristotle broke this down across the different dimensions, um of 91 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 1: of our interactions with other people, at the household level, 92 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 1: at the village level, and then at the what he 93 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:22,560 Speaker 1: considered kind of the ultimate level. The Polish a collection 94 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 1: of human beings who lived together through the creation of 95 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:27,720 Speaker 1: laws allowing them all to survive and flourish. And this 96 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 1: is where we get politics. As the word politics. I 97 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 1: think there's a pretty good case to be made that 98 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:36,599 Speaker 1: the Aristotle is onto something here about the fundamental nature 99 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:41,040 Speaker 1: of humankind that sort of um, that what makes us 100 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 1: really special is our ability to cooperate with one another. 101 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 1: And it's not that other animals lack the ability to 102 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:50,839 Speaker 1: cooperate with one another. I mean you might say that 103 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:54,040 Speaker 1: it is say like a youth social insect colony coordinates 104 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:58,279 Speaker 1: their activities even better than humans can. But humans have 105 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:02,720 Speaker 1: have much richer is of cooperating with one another than 106 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:05,720 Speaker 1: even say you social insects do, because we have things 107 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:10,920 Speaker 1: like language, which allows us to very very minutely coordinate 108 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:15,279 Speaker 1: our behaviors and cooperate in ways that are have levels 109 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 1: of complexity you couldn't really imagine without something like language. Yeah. So, 110 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:24,919 Speaker 1: Nick Nicholas, coming back to his paper, rights that Aristotle 111 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 1: considered politics a place for human practical reason to flourish. 112 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 1: So it was the ideal place not for everyone, but 113 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 1: for the best minds to busy themselves. And um, you know, 114 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:39,839 Speaker 1: thinking thinking again to the done universe. It's easy to 115 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 1: to focus on all the at times dystopian aspects of 116 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:48,920 Speaker 1: it and the war and the intrigue, but you know, 117 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 1: it is a pretty cooperative interplanetary empire when you look 118 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 1: at it from a certain perspective, you know, I mean, 119 00:06:56,800 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 1: they have managed to not annihilate each other with the 120 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:03,279 Speaker 1: tom weapons. They have this uh this you know this, this, um, 121 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 1: this treaty in place, um even though there's a great 122 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:12,239 Speaker 1: deal of inequality in the Dune universe. Um, they're all 123 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 1: all these factions are working more or less together. Well yeah, 124 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 1: and I think you can see those dualities all throughout 125 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 1: real history as well. I mean, look at any number 126 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:24,480 Speaker 1: of empires. You can think of the Roman Empire or 127 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 1: the British Empire. I mean, all of these are at 128 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 1: the same time kind of marvelous achievements of cooperation and 129 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 1: coordination at the same time that they are brutal engines 130 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 1: of oppression. Yeah. Now, a body discusses the same thing 131 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 1: that you mentioned that you know, some that we've discussed 132 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 1: just a second ago. That you know, some take Aristotle 133 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 1: to mean that non human animals cannot be political. Others 134 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 1: see it as the view that humans are merely more 135 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 1: political than any non human animal. But again, Aristotle puts 136 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 1: a great deal that emphasis on language. Um and uh, yeah, 137 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 1: it is. Language is key to the human realm of politics. 138 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:06,440 Speaker 1: Um in in good ways and bad ways. Well, yeah, 139 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 1: a language allows for a complexity of coordination. That is, 140 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 1: uh that that of course can serve both good and 141 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 1: bad end. So it allows for extremely complex coordination to 142 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 1: service of the greater good and helping one another, but 143 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 1: also to uh, you know, ever richer layers of deception 144 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 1: than than could be imagined by any other kind of animal. Yeah, 145 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:30,160 Speaker 1: I mean, I've seen him pointed out that one of 146 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:32,719 Speaker 1: the things that our language does is it allows us 147 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 1: to share uh, particular points of view with others, perceptions 148 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:39,960 Speaker 1: of of of what's working, what's not working, of what's 149 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 1: bringing us pleasure and what's bringing us pain. Now, I 150 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 1: want to come back to the benegested distinction of humans 151 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:49,840 Speaker 1: and animals again, This is, you know, they're very much 152 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:53,440 Speaker 1: of of the mindset. Don't be an animal, be a human? Uh. 153 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:57,320 Speaker 1: And the reverend mother tells uh Paul that the test 154 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 1: is about seeing if he is human or not um 155 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 1: and the ben adjested training seems to a larger degree 156 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:07,080 Speaker 1: revolve around the high application of reason in a way 157 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:10,920 Speaker 1: that overpowers animal instincts. Again that the example that is 158 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 1: thrown out as the animal choose its leg off if 159 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:16,640 Speaker 1: it's cott in a trap, but the human, the political 160 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 1: animal par excellence, plots and practices politics over the fact 161 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:24,920 Speaker 1: of it's entrapment. Well, in fact, the very example she 162 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:28,480 Speaker 1: gives is one of deception. Remember that he would feign 163 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 1: death in order to attract the trapper and then and 164 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 1: then strike out and kill him. Yes, and of course 165 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 1: this is uh in a way this foreshadows what is 166 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 1: to come UH in the novel Dune, because the trades 167 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 1: acquisition of Aracus is widely seen as a trap. And 168 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:52,360 Speaker 1: and Paul's father um to to, not not entirely by 169 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:55,400 Speaker 1: his own choice, ends up in the position of the 170 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:58,600 Speaker 1: animal that must strike out from the trap in an 171 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 1: attempt to punish his oppressor. Uh. It ends up not 172 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 1: quite working, but it's It's again one of the great 173 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:08,960 Speaker 1: scenes in the book. And and I thought a wonderfully 174 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:13,960 Speaker 1: um recreated scene in the recent film adaptation. Now coming 175 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:17,160 Speaker 1: back to the philosophy of of Dune book, Nicholas uses 176 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 1: the com Jabar awareness test to make a point about 177 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 1: the current state of humanity in our world, the real world, 178 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 1: in particular the environmental pair al we face. UM. He says, 179 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 1: you know this, this is the trap. We are the trap. 180 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:34,040 Speaker 1: But we are arguably not actually human enough, not aware 181 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:36,080 Speaker 1: of our place in the world and our connections to 182 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 1: one another. Uh to act in the best interests of 183 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 1: the city. Uh. Quote Herbert's Philosophy of the human warns 184 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 1: against two things being animal and being a slave. As animals, 185 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:50,720 Speaker 1: we may be enslaved by our animal desires, but there 186 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:53,560 Speaker 1: is a different slavery being a slave to the machine. 187 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 1: The Butallerian Jahad freed humanity. It freed beings from enslavement 188 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 1: to machines, and it freed us to devote up our 189 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:04,160 Speaker 1: human talents. Herbert isn't asking us to abandon our favorite 190 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:08,560 Speaker 1: playthings iPod, computer and game systems. He's challenging us to 191 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 1: find out how to use those toys to live a 192 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 1: human life. The warning is not to stagnate. Now, if 193 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:18,559 Speaker 1: we're thinking about environmental catastrophe, you know it. It may 194 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:22,560 Speaker 1: also seem counterintuitive to think of politics as the answer, obviously, 195 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 1: but but you know, there are more than enough examples 196 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 1: in our modern world of political barriers to environmental action. 197 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:32,120 Speaker 1: But of course it is through politics, certainly in the 198 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:34,800 Speaker 1: Aristotle sense of the word, that anything is done for 199 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:37,320 Speaker 1: the greater good of humanity. Yeah, and a very crude 200 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 1: since I think this analogy works. Doing something about, say, 201 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 1: environmental problems, which will eventually cause harm to do lots 202 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:48,840 Speaker 1: of people or to everyone, may require some kind of 203 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 1: initial investment. It's it's sort of like the marshmallow test. 204 00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:55,320 Speaker 1: But for you know, but for people as a whole, like, 205 00:11:55,559 --> 00:11:58,080 Speaker 1: can can you actually do the thing that's going to 206 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 1: get you a better outcome in the long run if 207 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:02,560 Speaker 1: it hurts you a little bit in the short run? 208 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:06,400 Speaker 1: A lot of times the answer is no. Now, right 209 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:09,600 Speaker 1: after I UM was looking at this material, I just 210 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:13,480 Speaker 1: happened to be watching a ted X talk for for 211 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 1: other reasons, UM, and it's one from Jill Bolt Taylor, 212 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:21,280 Speaker 1: author of My Stroke of Insight, a brain scientists personal journey. UM. 213 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:24,320 Speaker 1: I think we've mentioned her on the show before. She 214 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 1: had this UM this journey to recover from a stroke, 215 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 1: and wrote about it quite interesting. But this particular talk 216 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:37,079 Speaker 1: was the nero and anatomical transformation of the teenage brain 217 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 1: from and Taylor's main points in this concern what happens 218 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 1: to the teenage brain, but also just the development of 219 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 1: the brain in general. And I thought some of her 220 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:49,839 Speaker 1: points lined up with a lot of this Benedjester at 221 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:53,960 Speaker 1: thinking in the concept of Aristotle's politics, she points out 222 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:58,199 Speaker 1: that we are feeling animals that think, not thinking animals 223 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 1: that feel, uh, and we we are all neuro circuitry. 224 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 1: That's something that she drives home, and as such, we 225 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:07,840 Speaker 1: think thoughts. We then feel emotions based on those thoughts, 226 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: and then we run physiological responses to those emotions. And 227 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:18,000 Speaker 1: for sustained or recurring psychological responses, such as anger, we 228 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:20,720 Speaker 1: wind up running the same thoughts over and over again 229 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:25,120 Speaker 1: to reproduce those same results. And she drives something that 230 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 1: you know, we have we have an ability to pick 231 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:29,720 Speaker 1: and choose what's going on inside of our heads. Uh. 232 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:31,959 Speaker 1: And she sums it up by saying, you know again, 233 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 1: we are we are feeling creatures who think, uh. We 234 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:37,240 Speaker 1: tend to be more concerned with the me rather than 235 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:40,160 Speaker 1: the we uh. And and in this we fall short 236 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 1: of the idea of that polus of the of the 237 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 1: city uh that Aristotle writes about. So I think it's 238 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:53,359 Speaker 1: interesting to think about like political action coming together, communal responses, 239 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:58,720 Speaker 1: planning towards um, you know, future problems. Is that these 240 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:02,160 Speaker 1: are things that one hand, they're difficult for individuals to 241 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 1: do at times, but on the other hand, like this 242 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 1: is this is something that humans do excel at. I mean, 243 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 1: we're not We're not you know that we don't have 244 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 1: the same level of of efficiency compared to you. Social 245 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:15,959 Speaker 1: insects certainly but um, but it is one of the 246 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:19,280 Speaker 1: strengths of humanity that that you know, virtually anything that 247 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 1: we consider great in in human culture, uh, you know, 248 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 1: and and um and in the history of our civilizations 249 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:29,880 Speaker 1: it has been is due to people working together and 250 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 1: bringing things out of that. But it's also interesting the 251 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 1: way that um, the use of politics and the Benny 252 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:41,080 Speaker 1: Jesser it since I guess reflects both types of both 253 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:44,400 Speaker 1: ways of thinking about the words. So on the one hand, 254 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 1: you have them sort of executing long term plans through 255 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 1: massive cooperation of they're they're they're coordinating activities on a 256 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:55,800 Speaker 1: galactic scale, uh, to try to serve some goal in 257 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 1: the end. But you could also see them, as I 258 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 1: think quite accurately rue fless power seekers within a ruthless system, 259 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 1: and that those are both true at the same time. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah, 260 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 1: they're they're definitely you know, engaging in shadow government conspiracies. 261 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 1: They are they're manipulating uh, pretty much anyone they come 262 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:19,800 Speaker 1: into contact with to certain degrees. But the end then 263 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 1: then they also have these goals of creating some sort 264 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 1: of a human supercomputer that will you know, bring about 265 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:31,200 Speaker 1: some sort of balance. Uh. And if you know, long 266 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 1: term success for the human species. But then again, I 267 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:36,640 Speaker 1: guess that's that is often if you if you if 268 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:40,080 Speaker 1: you look at at today's politics, I mean that is 269 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 1: often the case, right, I mean there's you'll see politics 270 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 1: who yeah, have some sort of a a particular aim 271 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 1: or goal that they talk about that lines up with 272 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 1: other people's estimations of what could make the world a 273 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 1: better place. Um, but then they've also got to play 274 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:57,680 Speaker 1: that political game. Uh. And you can, I can, you know, 275 00:15:57,720 --> 00:15:59,600 Speaker 1: you can argue, well, they have to play that political 276 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 1: game in order to to do this thing or to 277 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:04,680 Speaker 1: attempt to do this thing. But then you also wonder, 278 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 1: like what is the actual driving force? Is it? Is 279 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 1: it the the good thing you want to do for 280 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 1: the world, the change you want to you want to enact, 281 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 1: or is it that game and that that's that continual 282 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 1: you know grasp for power. Well, you know, on on 283 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:24,880 Speaker 1: on one hand, I uh, I feel a draw towards optimism, 284 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 1: you know, I want to be optimistic about that kind 285 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 1: of project. But I also think that people's real motivating 286 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:36,160 Speaker 1: priorities are often determined largely by their habits, by what 287 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:39,560 Speaker 1: they do day after day. And so if you get 288 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 1: in the mindset of, well, I got to play the 289 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:44,560 Speaker 1: game in order to achieve some lofty goal that would 290 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 1: be for the good of humankind or something. I mean, 291 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 1: in a way, I guess that is what people must 292 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:51,920 Speaker 1: do if they want to achieve those goals through say 293 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 1: mass action, which has to be coordinated through politics probably, 294 00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 1: But there I think there's always a risk of by 295 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 1: playing the game, you're real values become the playing of 296 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:04,960 Speaker 1: the game. What is in further into of playing the game, 297 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 1: because that is what you have to do day in 298 00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:09,199 Speaker 1: and day out, right, right, And so like in the 299 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:12,320 Speaker 1: doone University, you're a member of a great house. You 300 00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:14,360 Speaker 1: you don't want to just be trying to assassinate your 301 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 1: rivals just for the stake of assassination. It's just because 302 00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 1: it's just this is the way politics works. But if 303 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 1: that is what you spend day after day doing all 304 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:25,520 Speaker 1: the time, I think that ultimately will end up defining 305 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:28,159 Speaker 1: your main priorities. You know, when when you're forced to 306 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 1: choose between one thing and another, you'll probably choose what's 307 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 1: in service of the projects you pursue day after day 308 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 1: all the time. All right, well, why don't we move 309 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 1: along to the Spacing Guild and to uh, to set 310 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:50,159 Speaker 1: the stage, I thought we might do, uh, one of 311 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:52,720 Speaker 1: these little readings here. Perhaps we can drop a little 312 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:58,200 Speaker 1: ambience into the audio bed here, and uh, we'll hear 313 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:04,280 Speaker 1: from the Spacing Guild handbook. Any path that narrows future 314 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:09,479 Speaker 1: possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans are not threading 315 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 1: their way through a maze. They scan a vast horizon 316 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 1: filled with unique opportunities. The narrowing viewpoint of the maze 317 00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:21,439 Speaker 1: should appeal only to creatures with their noses buried in 318 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:26,440 Speaker 1: the sand. A point of order, wouldn't burying your nose 319 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:28,880 Speaker 1: in the sand actually be a good way to inhale 320 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:33,679 Speaker 1: significant amount of spice and thus broad horizons. Yeah, that's 321 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:35,359 Speaker 1: why I thought this is a great quote to start with, 322 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 1: because on one hand, that's the sand, that's where all 323 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:41,000 Speaker 1: that spices, and uh, you know, that's that's what the 324 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 1: Guild is all about. And then on the other hand, 325 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:46,480 Speaker 1: the thing they're saying don't do is the main thing 326 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:51,000 Speaker 1: that Paul accuses the Spacing Guild of doing, of um, 327 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 1: you know, of of not considering the vast horizon, but 328 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 1: but considering the narrow viewpoint of how to avoid catastrophes 329 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:02,240 Speaker 1: in the near future, and of course how to maintain 330 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 1: that spice. You know, this quote actually reminds me of 331 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 1: something that's brought up in in an essay I'm going 332 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:09,280 Speaker 1: to get into in a bit by by a NASA 333 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:13,320 Speaker 1: JPL navigator who has written about the Guild navigators in 334 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:18,200 Speaker 1: uh in Dune, and one of the concepts he talks 335 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 1: about in his essay is the difference between calculating a 336 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:26,159 Speaker 1: solution to a problem in a best fit fashion or 337 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 1: in a first fit fashion. Uh. You know, these are 338 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:33,119 Speaker 1: very different approaches you can have. So one says you 339 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:35,720 Speaker 1: you keep trying to solve the problem until you find 340 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:39,919 Speaker 1: the first solution that actually works, and the other is 341 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 1: you keep trying to solve the problem, going through all 342 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 1: possible solutions until you have identified the optimal one. And 343 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 1: of course people think, well, you know, going for the 344 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:51,680 Speaker 1: best fit path has got to be better, right, because 345 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:55,160 Speaker 1: some even some successful paths are better than other successful paths. 346 00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:58,720 Speaker 1: But he outlines the fact that for a lot of 347 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:00,919 Speaker 1: real world types and air areos, even if you have 348 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:06,720 Speaker 1: supercomputers involved, calculating best fit pathways is sometimes such a 349 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:11,960 Speaker 1: monumental calculation task that it's functionally impossible. So you know, 350 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:16,040 Speaker 1: they're saying, we'll be aware of all possibilities. But there's 351 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:19,680 Speaker 1: also the possibility that being aware of all possibilities puts 352 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 1: you in a paralyzing state of inaction and in decision 353 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 1: because you can never finish doing all the calculations, and 354 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:27,639 Speaker 1: maybe you would be better to just sort of bury 355 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:30,360 Speaker 1: your nose whenever you figure out one path that works, 356 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:32,720 Speaker 1: just do that. Anyway, I guess we can keep that 357 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:36,479 Speaker 1: in mind as we talked about the Space and Guild. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, Well, 358 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:39,240 Speaker 1: let's let's refresh though in the Space and Guild, um 359 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:42,080 Speaker 1: be because certainly you haven't read the book in a while, 360 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:44,639 Speaker 1: you might have forgotten some of this and the Space 361 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 1: and Guild that they are present in Dune Part one, 362 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:50,720 Speaker 1: the movie that that just came out last month, but 363 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 1: they're not maybe not in the forefront of things. So 364 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:57,919 Speaker 1: first of all, as we mentioned earlier, um, this is 365 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 1: one of the great mental physical train schools, uh, the 366 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 1: Spacing Guild, and we're told in Dune that they constituted 367 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:09,959 Speaker 1: one leg of the political tripod, maintaining the Great Convention. 368 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:12,159 Speaker 1: This is the truth among all the great houses and 369 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:16,280 Speaker 1: the imperium that bans atomic weaponry and permits these kind 370 00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:20,480 Speaker 1: of formal wars of assassination against rulers and key figures, 371 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:23,200 Speaker 1: so that way, you know, it's members of great houses 372 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:27,679 Speaker 1: that get strategically murdered as opposed to whole populations and 373 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:30,960 Speaker 1: planets due to you know, a catastrophic use of weapons 374 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:33,719 Speaker 1: of mass destruction. The other legs of the tripod are 375 00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:37,199 Speaker 1: the Imperial House and the Landstrade. The Landstrade is the 376 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:40,159 Speaker 1: body representing all of the great houses. Now, by the 377 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 1: time of the of the events in the novel Dune, 378 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:47,119 Speaker 1: the Spacing Guild is immensely powerful. They control a monopoly 379 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:51,760 Speaker 1: on space travel and transport, as well as interplanetary banking 380 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:55,199 Speaker 1: and so some elements you know, you know, like everything 381 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 1: and doing. You can easily think of parallels in history. 382 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:00,800 Speaker 1: Uh for instance, the non military are aspects of the 383 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 1: Night Templars is there, as well as of course, the 384 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:06,920 Speaker 1: the East India Company, the Dutch East India Company, UM 385 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:09,400 Speaker 1: and and various other monopolies you can you can turn 386 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:13,920 Speaker 1: to like what happens when one group controlled something absolutely 387 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 1: or near absolutely. So there's something interesting about the fact 388 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:21,639 Speaker 1: that the Spacing Guild has this monopoly on interstellar travel 389 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:24,120 Speaker 1: in the Dune universe, which is that, if I understand 390 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:27,639 Speaker 1: it correctly, this monopoly is handled in a way that 391 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:31,120 Speaker 1: that's different than a lot of real world monopolies, which 392 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:34,119 Speaker 1: are maintained in some cases by by force, you know, 393 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:38,080 Speaker 1: by by like military or paramilitary force, saying like no 394 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:40,440 Speaker 1: one else may may try to compete with with us, 395 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:45,480 Speaker 1: or sometimes by just like wealth inequality, by saying like, 396 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,119 Speaker 1: you know, we're the only kind of company that that 397 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:51,600 Speaker 1: can afford the infrastructure to do this. But in the 398 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:54,639 Speaker 1: Dune universe, it seems to be that the monopoly is 399 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 1: maintained not by any of these conventional methods, but by 400 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:03,760 Speaker 1: having a monopoly on the navigators themselves, a monopoly on expertise, 401 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:07,480 Speaker 1: right and uh, and I guess the depending on how 402 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:10,560 Speaker 1: you look at the like the nature of the Guild Navigators, 403 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:14,480 Speaker 1: the steersman, Yeah, like the secrets and the knowledge of 404 00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:18,439 Speaker 1: their creation. Um, you know, to whatever extent they are 405 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:21,360 Speaker 1: engineered or to whatever extent they are like a product 406 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 1: of mass spice consumption. And then of course there are 407 00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:27,040 Speaker 1: there are you know, elements there as well as like 408 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:29,960 Speaker 1: it's it's about access to the spice um, and the 409 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:34,800 Speaker 1: Guild definitely values its access to the Spice. But one 410 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:37,240 Speaker 1: thing I was really thinking about when putting together notes 411 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:40,919 Speaker 1: for this episode is the power of the Guild is 412 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:43,439 Speaker 1: um you know, just as everything in a sci fi 413 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:47,359 Speaker 1: futuristic world is kind of uh you know, blown into 414 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:50,960 Speaker 1: into into greater proportions and uh, you know and all 415 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:55,800 Speaker 1: like the basically, their power is such that if a 416 00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:59,119 Speaker 1: great house chooses to surrender their planet in one of 417 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:03,639 Speaker 1: these these squabbles and wars of assassins, um they and 418 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:07,359 Speaker 1: they want to flee beyond the imperium, the Spacing Guild 419 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:11,199 Speaker 1: will supply that house with just such a far flung 420 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:13,879 Speaker 1: planet or you know, some territory on a far flung 421 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 1: planet that's called a two pile. And this is actually 422 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 1: referenced in the novel when the Trades are trying to 423 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:23,720 Speaker 1: figure out what to do about this hearkening trap that 424 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:26,520 Speaker 1: they've found themselves caught in, and one of the options 425 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 1: which they don't really entertain, is, oh, yeah, we could 426 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 1: buy the you know, do the rules of uh, you know, 427 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:33,600 Speaker 1: of of these various treaties. We can just go to 428 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:35,960 Speaker 1: the Spacing Guild and they will take us away to 429 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:39,400 Speaker 1: a planet that no one else can get to. Um 430 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:41,720 Speaker 1: and and I love that love this because it reminds 431 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:44,000 Speaker 1: us that for the Guild, this is a true monopoly. 432 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,280 Speaker 1: And they're also that their space beyond the Imperium. But 433 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:50,760 Speaker 1: since the Guild are the ones who control movement and mapping, 434 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:53,439 Speaker 1: they kind of have control over the shape of the 435 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:57,280 Speaker 1: physical universe for human beings, UH, their access to secret 436 00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:00,720 Speaker 1: worlds and outside space. It almost mirror 's UM, you know, 437 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 1: theological concepts. Yeah, that's really interesting and and I mean 438 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:09,080 Speaker 1: this would essentially be a an unprecedented state of affairs 439 00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:12,280 Speaker 1: in the history of human politics because normally, you know, 440 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:15,520 Speaker 1: if you get exiled, you have to go somewhere where 441 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:18,040 Speaker 1: you could be found, and there are probably already going 442 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:21,359 Speaker 1: to be some people there anyway. But in this case, 443 00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:24,520 Speaker 1: you can get exiled to a place where there's nobody 444 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 1: there to begin with, and nobody's nobody can ever find you. Yeah, 445 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:30,280 Speaker 1: It's it's weird how in this case, it's like a 446 00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:34,040 Speaker 1: place is not real unless the Guild permits you to 447 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:38,120 Speaker 1: go there. And and in UM having this two pile option, 448 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 1: it allows people to to basically pass out of the 449 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 1: world of human beings in the Imperium and UH and 450 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 1: exist in in another state almost like they've entered into 451 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:52,600 Speaker 1: an afterlife or something that. Yeah, that's fascinating. So how 452 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 1: did the Guild come to learn of the use of 453 00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:57,040 Speaker 1: spice and navigation? Well, I was reading about this in 454 00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:59,520 Speaker 1: the Dune Encyclopedia, of course, and they outline a few 455 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:02,080 Speaker 1: different stabilities, but the basics seems seemed to be that 456 00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:05,399 Speaker 1: they were perhaps just casting around in the wake of 457 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:07,520 Speaker 1: the Great Revolt in the Great in the wake of 458 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,640 Speaker 1: the Balarian Jahad, looking for just anything that could aid 459 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:12,439 Speaker 1: them in navigation. You know, what can we do to 460 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:16,760 Speaker 1: enhance human mental capacity in order to help us handle this? 461 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:20,520 Speaker 1: And then they discovered the spice or it's also suggested 462 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:22,439 Speaker 1: that perhaps the Benegester it has something to do with 463 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 1: this and introduced the spice to them. Um, now how 464 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,119 Speaker 1: do they use the spice? Well, as we come to 465 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 1: learn in the Dune series, the steersman or Guild Navigators 466 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:37,240 Speaker 1: consumed just massive amounts of milange, so much that they 467 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:40,560 Speaker 1: have been altered into a kind of aquatic mammal that 468 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 1: breathes and drinks milange. Now, we in the first novel 469 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:49,520 Speaker 1: don't really get a lot of insight into the Guild navigators, Like, 470 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:52,480 Speaker 1: we don't really see them up close or get their perspective. 471 00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:54,760 Speaker 1: But that's not true in the sequels, right, Like I 472 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:57,280 Speaker 1: think in the second book, one of the main characters 473 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:00,680 Speaker 1: is a is a Guild navigator, Am I right? Right? Right? 474 00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:02,879 Speaker 1: The the guild navigator that we we actually see in 475 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:07,960 Speaker 1: the David lynch Um adaptation. They basically pulled the Yeah, yeah, 476 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:10,520 Speaker 1: they Edric, they pull him out of the sequel um 477 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:12,720 Speaker 1: and uh, you know, that's probably one of the most 478 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:17,720 Speaker 1: memorable sequences in that entire film, with these very very 479 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:23,359 Speaker 1: mutinty um gothy spacing Guild members bringing out this great 480 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:27,199 Speaker 1: tank in which floats this creature that is actually just 481 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:32,560 Speaker 1: a human being, but a very exotic form of human 482 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:37,359 Speaker 1: being brought on by this intense relationship with the Spice. Yeah. 483 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:39,879 Speaker 1: I love I've always thought that was a great choice 484 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:43,200 Speaker 1: by Lynch. So he's like, Okay, I'm adapting one of 485 00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:47,280 Speaker 1: the weirdest novels ever into a big mainstream motion picture, 486 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:50,119 Speaker 1: and uh, I think the thing I'm gonna do is 487 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,280 Speaker 1: insert a scene that's even weirder than anything in the 488 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:56,679 Speaker 1: book that is not in the book, and put that 489 00:27:56,800 --> 00:28:01,000 Speaker 1: right at the beginning. As I love it. Yeah, I mean, 490 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:07,240 Speaker 1: it's really clear in the latest adaptation that uh that 491 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,720 Speaker 1: the director old d V there he um, he really 492 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 1: likes the weird uh and he he he likes to 493 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:16,760 Speaker 1: linger on on these beautiful weird moments just in the 494 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,879 Speaker 1: first half of the first novel. I really hope he 495 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:23,359 Speaker 1: gets to make Dune Messiah as well, um, which he 496 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:24,840 Speaker 1: has said he would like to do. Is sort of 497 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:27,000 Speaker 1: a way to round out the trilogy, because there's so 498 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:30,240 Speaker 1: much weird stuff in Messiah, because that's where you start 499 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:34,640 Speaker 1: seeing things like like a guild steersman, and um, there's 500 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:39,959 Speaker 1: also a face dancer. Uh. There, there's wonderful stuff in there. Now. 501 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:43,440 Speaker 1: I was reading about the Steersman in Um the Dune Encyclopedia, 502 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 1: and I wanted to read this wonderful quote. Whatever faults 503 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:49,520 Speaker 1: the Spacing Guild may have had when the day of 504 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:53,200 Speaker 1: the Steersman ended, a real beauty passed from the universe. 505 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:58,280 Speaker 1: The experience of the Steersman, breathing and drinking milange, rocking 506 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 1: to the beat of space and time, swaying with the 507 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:04,479 Speaker 1: music of the spheres, lead in their dance by the 508 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:08,400 Speaker 1: pulse of life around them, alive to every note in 509 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:12,480 Speaker 1: the Pivan, both composed and played by their quartet is 510 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:16,200 Speaker 1: beyond the power of words to describe or the imagination 511 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:19,800 Speaker 1: to conceive. And so the Dune encyclopedia I think is 512 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:23,520 Speaker 1: pretty pro Space and Guild. They take a side in 513 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 1: the factional struggles. Well and this this, I mean, they're 514 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:28,400 Speaker 1: really like, look, you know, whatever you have to say 515 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 1: about the Space and Guild. Those steersman they were they 516 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:36,240 Speaker 1: were doing great. They they were just uh And I 517 00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:38,200 Speaker 1: guess I like the idea that it, you know it 518 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:42,280 Speaker 1: it kind of answers the question, well, why would why 519 00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:44,080 Speaker 1: would it would you want to be this like, why 520 00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:47,240 Speaker 1: would uh would this be an okay state? Because certainly 521 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 1: in the Lynch film, you know, it looks kind of 522 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:51,760 Speaker 1: like a nightmare. It looks like some sort of like well, 523 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:56,360 Speaker 1: just this horrible state. But if you imagine uh, the 524 00:29:56,360 --> 00:30:00,080 Speaker 1: Guild navigator just you know, feeling so alive, uh, on 525 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 1: the spice in that tank, then I guess it it 526 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:05,960 Speaker 1: makes sense. But in the uh, the New Dune movie, 527 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:08,720 Speaker 1: the Villeneuve when so, I wasn't aware when I was 528 00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:11,280 Speaker 1: watching it that there was a scene where we saw 529 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:15,280 Speaker 1: the Guild steersman, but you you identified that actually they 530 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:17,720 Speaker 1: do show up. They're the guys towards the beginning of 531 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:19,600 Speaker 1: the movie that are dressed in what looks like a 532 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:24,080 Speaker 1: combination of papal vestments and e v A suits. Yeah. 533 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:26,840 Speaker 1: And one of the big tail tale signs, of course, 534 00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:30,720 Speaker 1: is that they have these orange domes over their head, orange, 535 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 1: you know, implying the spice um. But yeah, it's easy 536 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:37,040 Speaker 1: to miss. In fact, I I had noticed that there were, 537 00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 1: you know, some people online responding to the film and 538 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 1: they were like, where was the Space and Guild um 539 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:44,560 Speaker 1: and and yeah you can. You can watch it and 540 00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:46,640 Speaker 1: think that they don't show up at all, but they 541 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:49,480 Speaker 1: they are here and uh and I think they'll they'll 542 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:57,040 Speaker 1: have a bigger role in part two. Thank thank thank 543 00:30:58,120 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 1: All Right, well, I thought we should talk maybe a 544 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:04,160 Speaker 1: bit about the science of deep space navigation and how 545 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:06,719 Speaker 1: that would apply to the Spacing Guild. And as one 546 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,000 Speaker 1: of my sources here, I was looking at another essay 547 00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:11,000 Speaker 1: in that book The Science of Dune we mentioned in 548 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 1: the last episode. This one is called the Spacing Guild, 549 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:18,160 Speaker 1: and it's by a guy named John C. Smith who 550 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:23,040 Speaker 1: worked in spaceflight navigation at NASA JPL, the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, 551 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:26,120 Speaker 1: and his bio says that he worked on missions too. 552 00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:28,240 Speaker 1: I'm not sure what to make of this to Venus, 553 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:32,240 Speaker 1: Mars and Earth um and that he was part of 554 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:36,200 Speaker 1: the Cassini Huygens mission to Saturn and its moon Titan. 555 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:39,080 Speaker 1: I guess you could argue that that, like the various 556 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:42,160 Speaker 1: satellites that help us study Earth science, our missions to Earth, 557 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:44,520 Speaker 1: that we have to we have to go into orbit 558 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:46,800 Speaker 1: to gain that kind of perspective to study our own world. 559 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:51,960 Speaker 1: I wonder it might mean return missions like attempted probe 560 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,640 Speaker 1: is coming back. That's true, because that that too is 561 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:58,160 Speaker 1: a navigational feat. Sure. Now there's one thing that Smith 562 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,040 Speaker 1: actually mentions right at the end of essay that I 563 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:03,680 Speaker 1: thought was really interesting. I'd never considered this, but it's 564 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:08,320 Speaker 1: a piece of historical context that might help us understand 565 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:11,240 Speaker 1: a little bit better what was going through Frank Herbert's 566 00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:14,480 Speaker 1: head when he framed deep space navigation in the way 567 00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:17,640 Speaker 1: that he did in these novels. So remember that Doune 568 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:21,400 Speaker 1: was originally published in nineteen sixty five, which again is 569 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:24,440 Speaker 1: kind of it's hard to believe, like it always feels 570 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:27,320 Speaker 1: further in the future than that. Yeah, to to imagine 571 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:30,600 Speaker 1: that this this novel came out before with stock, you know, 572 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:35,440 Speaker 1: h yeah, yeah, it's strange. But Smith writes quote, during 573 00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:38,680 Speaker 1: the time period Dune was written, humanity's exploration of the 574 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:42,280 Speaker 1: Moon and planets was in its infancy. The first successful 575 00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:46,680 Speaker 1: fly by ever of another planet was NASA's Mariner to craft, 576 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:50,840 Speaker 1: which encountered Venus in late nineteen sixty two. In nineteen 577 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:54,960 Speaker 1: sixty five, Mariner four became the first craft successfully navigated 578 00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:59,160 Speaker 1: to encounter Mars. But here's the thing to realize, these 579 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:02,080 Speaker 1: were not the only two missions launched at this time. 580 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:06,240 Speaker 1: Smith's count is that these two probes, the Mariner two 581 00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:09,560 Speaker 1: arriving at Venus in nineteen sixty two and Mariner four 582 00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:13,320 Speaker 1: reaching Mars in sixty five, were up to this point 583 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:18,560 Speaker 1: the only two fully successful interplanetary missions out of twenty 584 00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:23,360 Speaker 1: that had been attempted. Wow, so that's that's that's impressive. Yeah. 585 00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:25,680 Speaker 1: So because you also have to we also remind ourselves 586 00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:27,960 Speaker 1: of like, why do we have Mariner one and Mariner two. 587 00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:31,200 Speaker 1: It was because it was considered so risky that you 588 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:33,480 Speaker 1: we better just make two of them and send them 589 00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:36,120 Speaker 1: both out because there's a high probability we're going to 590 00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:38,800 Speaker 1: lose at least one of them. Right, So so at 591 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:43,160 Speaker 1: the point Herbert was writing, even navigating simply between the 592 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:47,600 Speaker 1: planets within our own solar system was a venture characterized 593 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:52,080 Speaker 1: mostly by failure. And so we today, you know, being 594 00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:54,520 Speaker 1: able to look back on many decades now of of 595 00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:58,480 Speaker 1: successful missions. I think in a kind of, uh, in 596 00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:03,040 Speaker 1: a kind of shortsighted way, UH take interplanetary travel or 597 00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:06,920 Speaker 1: at least of of unscrewed probes kind of for granted, 598 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:09,000 Speaker 1: and in a way that we really shouldn't like, not 599 00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:13,480 Speaker 1: realizing how difficult this technology was to develop and how 600 00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:17,920 Speaker 1: much intricate calculation has to go into uh, missions like 601 00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:21,200 Speaker 1: this to make them possible. So all that to say, basically, 602 00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:24,400 Speaker 1: I think there's a reason that in nineteen sixty five 603 00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:28,280 Speaker 1: this would have seemed like something you know, in interstellar navigation, 604 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:31,960 Speaker 1: would have seemed like something that required an almost supernatural 605 00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:37,000 Speaker 1: mechanism to explain that. Once again, that the interesting thing 606 00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:39,920 Speaker 1: being that in most cases science fiction that you know 607 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:44,480 Speaker 1: that mechanism is the is the is the thrust generation 608 00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:47,799 Speaker 1: or the travel technology on the ship that allows it 609 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:50,680 Speaker 1: to go so fast. I think that's sort of taken 610 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:54,280 Speaker 1: for granted in Dune, and instead the real magic seems 611 00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:57,120 Speaker 1: to come in and the question of navigation. Yeah, I 612 00:34:57,120 --> 00:34:59,840 Speaker 1: mean it's it's a situation where the spacing Guild and 613 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,560 Speaker 1: Steersman they don't you know, it's it's not just that 614 00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:06,200 Speaker 1: they can, you know, travel through hyperspaces, that they can 615 00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:10,080 Speaker 1: come out the other side, that they can do so successfully. Now, 616 00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:12,759 Speaker 1: this might the the idea and the dune novels is 617 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:16,120 Speaker 1: that they travel through what they call fold space or 618 00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:19,880 Speaker 1: folded space, which I think introduces its own hypothetical dangers. 619 00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:22,400 Speaker 1: But even if we just stick to the problems we 620 00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:27,200 Speaker 1: would expect to encounter traveling through real space. Uh. The 621 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:30,640 Speaker 1: the the problem of navigating deep space is is more 622 00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:33,120 Speaker 1: complex and interesting maybe than a lot of people would 623 00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:37,799 Speaker 1: have imagined, because um, it's it's fundamentally different and much 624 00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:41,480 Speaker 1: more difficult a problem than navigation and say a car. Right, 625 00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:45,520 Speaker 1: some of the differences are obvious. For example, if you're 626 00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:48,360 Speaker 1: driving on a road, you don't really have to plot 627 00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:51,600 Speaker 1: a course at all, right, the course is already determined 628 00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:54,120 Speaker 1: by the road that has been built. You just have 629 00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:56,640 Speaker 1: to know which roads to follow and how far to 630 00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:59,839 Speaker 1: follow them. But even if there were no roads where 631 00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:02,200 Speaker 1: you were going, say you were just driving a dune 632 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:05,840 Speaker 1: buggy over over desert wilderness. You would still have a 633 00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:08,360 Speaker 1: much easier time because you'd be able to note the 634 00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:11,160 Speaker 1: direction of your destination and more or less just drive 635 00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:15,200 Speaker 1: straight to it. I guess, circumnavigating any obstacles you encounter 636 00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:17,600 Speaker 1: along the way. You know, you might hit a mountain 637 00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:19,719 Speaker 1: or ravine or something and you have to go find 638 00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:22,839 Speaker 1: a way around it. But basically you're just traveling in 639 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:26,799 Speaker 1: a across a fixed map. And this is really a 640 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:29,239 Speaker 1: blessing with travel, right the fact that you know, if 641 00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:32,239 Speaker 1: you're if you're driving from one place to another, your 642 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:35,040 Speaker 1: car is the only thing that is moving in that 643 00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:38,200 Speaker 1: scenario relative to the reference frame of the surface of 644 00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:40,799 Speaker 1: the Earth. It's not like your starting position and your 645 00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:45,359 Speaker 1: destination are usually also moving. But when you're when you're 646 00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:48,839 Speaker 1: navigating in space, everything is moving and moving within their 647 00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:53,080 Speaker 1: own reference frames. So to travel to one planet or another, 648 00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:56,200 Speaker 1: you can't just aim at the planet and then turn 649 00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:58,920 Speaker 1: on the thrusters. Right, if we're trying to fly to Mars, 650 00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:01,319 Speaker 1: you can't say where is ours? Now, Okay, I'm gonna 651 00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:03,640 Speaker 1: aim dead center at that and then I'm gonna burn 652 00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:06,440 Speaker 1: the rockets. You can't do that, of course, because by 653 00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:09,320 Speaker 1: the time you got there, Mars would be gone. Mars 654 00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:12,640 Speaker 1: is moving really fast, it's an orbit around the Sun, 655 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:16,120 Speaker 1: and it would be somewhere else. So instead you essentially 656 00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:19,200 Speaker 1: have to plot an intercept course. It's not like sailing 657 00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:22,840 Speaker 1: into a port, but like sailing to intercept another ship 658 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:25,560 Speaker 1: that is also moving. Yeah, it's not a journey to 659 00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:28,480 Speaker 1: where the target planet is. It's a journey to where 660 00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:31,319 Speaker 1: the target planet will be. Now, fortunately, the paths of 661 00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:35,560 Speaker 1: objects like planets are strongly predictable that they follow an 662 00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:39,680 Speaker 1: orbital course established mostly by gravity and inertia. And we've 663 00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:43,400 Speaker 1: got good enough information about the orbital pathways of planets 664 00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:46,000 Speaker 1: that we can predict with pretty high accuracy where they're 665 00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:48,600 Speaker 1: going to be too arbitrary points out in the future. Though, 666 00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:51,160 Speaker 1: of course, the farther you try to predict the motion 667 00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:54,799 Speaker 1: of anything into the future, the the more inaccurate your 668 00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:58,280 Speaker 1: predictions will get because of the you know, the the 669 00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:02,680 Speaker 1: cruel of of tiny uh, tiny inaccuracies building up over time. 670 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:05,520 Speaker 1: But then there's a second problem. Okay, so you can 671 00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:07,880 Speaker 1: mostly predict where a planet's going to be in the future, 672 00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:10,279 Speaker 1: so you can plot a course to intercept it. You 673 00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:12,080 Speaker 1: know where it's going to be you go to where 674 00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:14,000 Speaker 1: it's going to be instead of where it is now. 675 00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:17,279 Speaker 1: But but there comes in a second problem. Given the 676 00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:22,719 Speaker 1: vast distances involved in space travel, even tiny inaccuracies in 677 00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:27,160 Speaker 1: the initial calculation of a baseline trajectory can end up 678 00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:31,080 Speaker 1: sending you off course. Uh. And for a crude analogy 679 00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:34,160 Speaker 1: to understand this, imagine you are shooting an arrow at 680 00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:37,080 Speaker 1: a target three feet away. If you're off by like 681 00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:39,480 Speaker 1: one degree of difference, when you're trying to hit the 682 00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:42,399 Speaker 1: target dead center, that's not going to matter very much 683 00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:44,680 Speaker 1: if it's three feet away. But if you're trying to 684 00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:48,440 Speaker 1: hit a target two hundred feet away, being off by 685 00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:50,520 Speaker 1: a little bit is going to make a big difference. 686 00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,520 Speaker 1: And so this is one reason that when we we 687 00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:56,680 Speaker 1: send out uncrewed space probes to do a you know, 688 00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:59,720 Speaker 1: inner the orbit of another planet or intercept a comet 689 00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:02,919 Speaker 1: or something like that. You can't just aim them at 690 00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:05,759 Speaker 1: where that planet or object is going to be and 691 00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:08,440 Speaker 1: then shoot them off and let them go. You will 692 00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:13,000 Speaker 1: have to perform repeated course corrections. You'll have to check 693 00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:16,200 Speaker 1: the position of the probe periodically while it's on the 694 00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:19,680 Speaker 1: way to the destination. Figure out, you know, figure out 695 00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:22,800 Speaker 1: it's it's updated course heading based on the new information 696 00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:25,719 Speaker 1: you have about where it is, and probably perform a 697 00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:28,520 Speaker 1: new burn to correct the course heading because it will 698 00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:31,279 Speaker 1: be slightly off, just because there's always going to be 699 00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:34,160 Speaker 1: some level of inaccuracy that will build up over time. 700 00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:36,960 Speaker 1: And uh and and there there's no way to be 701 00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:40,399 Speaker 1: perfectly accurate when you're charting a course through space. Now, 702 00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:42,759 Speaker 1: there's one other thing worth noting, which is that while 703 00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:45,840 Speaker 1: real world space agencies now have plenty of experience with 704 00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:50,200 Speaker 1: deep space navigation, basically all of that experience is found 705 00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:54,520 Speaker 1: not in piloting ships from inside the ships, but in 706 00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:59,680 Speaker 1: programming navigational instructions for uncrewed probes. So all of the 707 00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:03,600 Speaker 1: space missions with with onboard human pilots have been really 708 00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:06,040 Speaker 1: close to home. You know, a few trips to the 709 00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:08,840 Speaker 1: Moon in the sixties and seventies, and then a bunch 710 00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:11,920 Speaker 1: of runs between the surface of Earth and low Earth orbit, 711 00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:14,560 Speaker 1: and as far as crude ships go, that's it. You know. 712 00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:17,759 Speaker 1: We we haven't had a somebody pilot a ship from 713 00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:21,319 Speaker 1: inside that ship to Mars or anywhere else. And there 714 00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:24,480 Speaker 1: are some differences in this regard the steering of uncrewed 715 00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:29,080 Speaker 1: robotic probes introduces additional difficulties. For example, the distance between 716 00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:32,719 Speaker 1: Earth and the probe will always create time delays. These 717 00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:35,600 Speaker 1: would be, you know, limited by the fact that radio 718 00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:38,279 Speaker 1: signals can only travel at the speed of light. So 719 00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:40,880 Speaker 1: if you're trying to land a probe on the Martian 720 00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:44,040 Speaker 1: moon Phobos, it's going to take some number of minutes 721 00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:46,600 Speaker 1: for the information to travel each way. So you send 722 00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:49,960 Speaker 1: an instruction to the probe and it might take who knows, 723 00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:53,080 Speaker 1: you know, ten minutes for it to get there, and 724 00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:55,880 Speaker 1: then you gotta wait another ten minutes for it to 725 00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:58,000 Speaker 1: send you feedback and for you to find out if 726 00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:01,239 Speaker 1: you're maneuver worked or not. But then there's another problem, 727 00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:04,640 Speaker 1: which is that Smith has a section of his essay 728 00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:07,920 Speaker 1: in in the Science of Doune about the process of 729 00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:13,440 Speaker 1: determining where a spacecraft actually is, which is crucial because 730 00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:17,080 Speaker 1: to know how to steer, you have to calculate a trajectory, 731 00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:20,719 Speaker 1: and you can't calculate an accurate to trajectory if you 732 00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:25,239 Speaker 1: don't know where you are. So to establish the position 733 00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:28,520 Speaker 1: of a spaceship with accuracy, you need some kind of 734 00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:32,400 Speaker 1: external landmark to reference, kind of similar to how you 735 00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:35,560 Speaker 1: would use landmarks to recognize where you are on a 736 00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:38,760 Speaker 1: journey by car, except of course, this is over vastly 737 00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:42,200 Speaker 1: greater distances without roads and with need for much greater 738 00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:45,319 Speaker 1: precision because of the distances that will be covered on 739 00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:49,600 Speaker 1: the journey. So Smith writes that we usually calculate the 740 00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:53,080 Speaker 1: position of space probes in our solar system with reference 741 00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:57,319 Speaker 1: to landmarks such as the Earth's north pole or He 742 00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:01,440 Speaker 1: also mentions a reference point that is the intersection of 743 00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:06,080 Speaker 1: Earth's equatorial and orbital planes on January first, two thousand, 744 00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:09,799 Speaker 1: which is of course everybody's favorite landmark. Um. But then 745 00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:13,640 Speaker 1: you know, uh so what you've got. You've got places 746 00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:17,680 Speaker 1: like that, and you can determine uh the probe's position 747 00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:21,600 Speaker 1: by say, checking the time delay on a radio transmission, 748 00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:26,480 Speaker 1: and especially if you can triangulate that with multiple receiver dishes, 749 00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:30,239 Speaker 1: so you've got different dishes around the world and they 750 00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:32,640 Speaker 1: can check how long it takes a radio signal to 751 00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:36,080 Speaker 1: reach them. You calculate the difference between the different dishes 752 00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:38,240 Speaker 1: on the Earth's surface, and you can get a pretty 753 00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:40,759 Speaker 1: good idea with with a pretty high level of accuracy, 754 00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:43,960 Speaker 1: where the probe is, and then you can also calculate 755 00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:48,200 Speaker 1: its velocity by measuring the Doppler shift in the in 756 00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:51,920 Speaker 1: the radio transmissions as they as as they are received 757 00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:55,200 Speaker 1: back on Earth. So again, the Doppler shift is you know. 758 00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:58,439 Speaker 1: The common example is how the the pitch of an 759 00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:02,839 Speaker 1: ambulance siren changes as the ambulance is moving towards you 760 00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:06,680 Speaker 1: or away from you. Wave lengths of different types of 761 00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:10,839 Speaker 1: waves tend to get higher pitched and become more compressed 762 00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:13,759 Speaker 1: if the sources moving towards you, and then they tend 763 00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:16,520 Speaker 1: to stretch out and get lower pitch as the as 764 00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:19,319 Speaker 1: the sources moving away from you. And by measuring the 765 00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:21,760 Speaker 1: amount of Doppler shift in the signal, you can actually 766 00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:25,879 Speaker 1: tell how fast something is moving away from you. But then, 767 00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:29,040 Speaker 1: so here's another thing I thought was interesting. So again, 768 00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:32,720 Speaker 1: in order to calculate a spacecraft's current position and path, 769 00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:35,959 Speaker 1: you need to know the last best guess of where 770 00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:39,359 Speaker 1: it actually was, and then from there you need to 771 00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:43,360 Speaker 1: predict forward in time using mathematical models of all the 772 00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:45,839 Speaker 1: different forces acting on it. And in a way, it's 773 00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:48,840 Speaker 1: a kind of dead reckoning you need to do. You say, Okay, 774 00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:51,440 Speaker 1: at this time, I know the ship was here and 775 00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:54,839 Speaker 1: it's been traveling in this direction this fast with these 776 00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:58,279 Speaker 1: forces acting on it. And so when I read that, 777 00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:00,840 Speaker 1: I was like, wait a minute, the forces acting on it? 778 00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:04,759 Speaker 1: Would that include something other than inertia, other than the 779 00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:09,440 Speaker 1: ship's initial velocity? And the answer is yes, absolutely, it 780 00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:13,000 Speaker 1: includes other forces. Much the same way that if you're 781 00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:15,120 Speaker 1: trying to predict the path of a bullet you imagine, 782 00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:18,160 Speaker 1: you know, somebody shooting at a target. You can't predict 783 00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:21,239 Speaker 1: the path of the bullet if you just imagine it 784 00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:24,799 Speaker 1: travels forever in a perfectly straight line out of the 785 00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:28,400 Speaker 1: gun barrel. You need to take into account other things 786 00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:32,480 Speaker 1: like gravity pulling the bullet toward the ground, and atmospheric 787 00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:36,840 Speaker 1: drags slowing the bullet down over time. Something very similar 788 00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:40,600 Speaker 1: is true of spacecraft. So to get a spacecraft's position 789 00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:43,920 Speaker 1: and to calculate its future trajectory, you need to know 790 00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:47,319 Speaker 1: not just where it started and its initial velocity, but 791 00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:51,799 Speaker 1: other forces acting on it, including things like gravity. Uh. 792 00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:55,760 Speaker 1: Gravity is Smith says the most important of these forces 793 00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:59,880 Speaker 1: in the familiar interplanetary missions that we have experience with, 794 00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:03,800 Speaker 1: and this would be gravitational attraction exerted by the objects 795 00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:06,360 Speaker 1: in our Solar system, the Sun, the planets, moons, and 796 00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:10,680 Speaker 1: other objects um. But actually it doesn't even stop at 797 00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:14,600 Speaker 1: the influence of gravity. The course of a spacecraft is 798 00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:19,080 Speaker 1: diverted by other things, including well, one would just be 799 00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:24,279 Speaker 1: variations in the way gravity is exerted even by known objects. 800 00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:28,560 Speaker 1: So the the example Smith gives is that gravity is 801 00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:33,000 Speaker 1: not perfectly symmetrical in the way it's exerted by objects 802 00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:36,759 Speaker 1: like planets and moons, because these objects sometimes are kind 803 00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:41,080 Speaker 1: of lumpy, and so they're gravitational influence is slightly asymmetrical. 804 00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:44,560 Speaker 1: There might be more gravitational influence in one part of 805 00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:46,960 Speaker 1: the object or in a certain direction than in other 806 00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:49,880 Speaker 1: parts or in other directions. But then on top of that, 807 00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:53,600 Speaker 1: you've got radiation pressure from the sun, you know, so 808 00:45:53,640 --> 00:45:55,719 Speaker 1: the solar wind might be at the back of a 809 00:45:56,560 --> 00:45:59,359 Speaker 1: of a probe that's traveling and that's actually throwing off 810 00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:02,560 Speaker 1: its trajectory from what you would imagine just if you calculated, 811 00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:06,200 Speaker 1: you know, its initial velocity from from the rocket burn 812 00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:09,759 Speaker 1: and then uh, and then maybe the gravitational influence of 813 00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:13,160 Speaker 1: nearby objects. You've got to take radiation pressure into account. Uh. 814 00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:15,920 Speaker 1: If an atmosphere is nearby, Smith says, you need to 815 00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:20,040 Speaker 1: note drag from the atmosphere and so forth, and Smith 816 00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:23,799 Speaker 1: even gives a very strange and interesting example of a 817 00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:28,400 Speaker 1: trajectory input that was once considered a real mystery. It 818 00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:32,759 Speaker 1: was the so called Pioneer anomaly. I don't think I 819 00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:35,120 Speaker 1: was familiar with this before, Rob, have you ever read 820 00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:39,720 Speaker 1: about this? I don't remember. So this concerned the Pioneer probes, 821 00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:42,920 Speaker 1: which you know, traveling off into deep space there, you know, 822 00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:48,120 Speaker 1: on on a long interstellar trajectory now, but navigators kept 823 00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:52,920 Speaker 1: finding that their predictions for the course of these Pioneer 824 00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:55,960 Speaker 1: probes was a little bit off, even after accounting for 825 00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:58,680 Speaker 1: all the known forces that that they could think of. 826 00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:01,600 Speaker 1: So the quest and is could this be an indication 827 00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:06,160 Speaker 1: of something unknown, some some unknown force or unknown property 828 00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:09,680 Speaker 1: of physics that hadn't yet been discovered. And the solution 829 00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:13,279 Speaker 1: to the mystery was was not that tantalizing, but but 830 00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:15,839 Speaker 1: it was kind of interesting. Nonetheless, it turns out it's 831 00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:19,760 Speaker 1: probably not anything spooky about physics. The deviation from expected 832 00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:25,799 Speaker 1: acceleration was probably due to radiation pressure exerted by the 833 00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:31,040 Speaker 1: power source on board the Pioneer probe. So inside, yeah, 834 00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:33,200 Speaker 1: they've got they've got a little internal power plant, a 835 00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:39,120 Speaker 1: radioisotope thermoelectric generator or RTG, and this was creating anisotropic 836 00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:42,919 Speaker 1: radiation pressure that was sort of meaning so I think 837 00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:46,680 Speaker 1: the pressure generated by the waist heat from this thermoelectric 838 00:47:46,719 --> 00:47:52,320 Speaker 1: generator was actually exerting a pressure that changed the course 839 00:47:52,520 --> 00:47:55,359 Speaker 1: of the probe as it flew through space and changed it. 840 00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:57,359 Speaker 1: It didn't you know, the radiation didn't just go out 841 00:47:57,360 --> 00:48:01,920 Speaker 1: in all directions. It was sort of it was anisotropic, 842 00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:04,600 Speaker 1: so it was going in one direction more than the 843 00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:09,120 Speaker 1: other directions. And this was creating an accelerating force. Yeah, 844 00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:11,640 Speaker 1: and and like like you said, when you're dealing with 845 00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:15,880 Speaker 1: with long distances like this, uh, just that little nudge, 846 00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:20,520 Speaker 1: especially if it's unaccounted for and unexplained, is enough to 847 00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:23,880 Speaker 1: send you completely off course. Right, And then Smith writes, 848 00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:27,480 Speaker 1: and as I say that interstellar travel would probably involve 849 00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:31,080 Speaker 1: even more forces acting on a spaceship to cause it 850 00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:34,000 Speaker 1: to deviate from its course. And these influences would have 851 00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:36,920 Speaker 1: to be understood and modeled mathematically if you were going 852 00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:41,680 Speaker 1: to navigate accurately. But another question would be again, you remember, 853 00:48:41,719 --> 00:48:45,759 Speaker 1: you need those reference points within the environment to calculate 854 00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:48,200 Speaker 1: your position if you're traveling through space. You need to 855 00:48:48,239 --> 00:48:52,439 Speaker 1: know where you are in order to calculate a trajectory. 856 00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:55,279 Speaker 1: So what would those external landmarks be if you are 857 00:48:55,320 --> 00:49:00,239 Speaker 1: traveling between stars, if you're an interstellar space uh Well, 858 00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:04,520 Speaker 1: Smith suggests the possibility of using pulsars. UM. Pulsars are 859 00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:08,719 Speaker 1: highly magnetized stars that spin around very fast, shooting out 860 00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:13,600 Speaker 1: beams of electromagnetic radiation out of their magnetic poles. And 861 00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:17,200 Speaker 1: because they rotate so fast, and because they shoot these 862 00:49:17,239 --> 00:49:20,640 Speaker 1: beams in selective directions, you know, it's not omnidirectional beaming. 863 00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:24,760 Speaker 1: It's like, uh, beams just coming out of the magnetic poles. 864 00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:28,759 Speaker 1: They appear from the at the external observer's perspective to 865 00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:33,160 Speaker 1: pulse or blink at these regular intervals, sort of like 866 00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:36,719 Speaker 1: the you know, the spinning light and the lighthouse, and 867 00:49:36,760 --> 00:49:39,640 Speaker 1: the intervals of these pulses can be used to identify 868 00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:43,240 Speaker 1: what pulsar you're looking at. In fact, the pioneer plaques, 869 00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:45,799 Speaker 1: remember those, uh, those plaques that were designed to go 870 00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:48,719 Speaker 1: on board the probes in case an alien ever looks 871 00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:51,720 Speaker 1: at this and says, hey, who made this? Um, they 872 00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:57,120 Speaker 1: used triangulation by pulsars of specified intervals to show the 873 00:49:57,160 --> 00:50:00,200 Speaker 1: galactic location of our solar system. They're like or is 874 00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:02,920 Speaker 1: where Earth is. Though I think to be fair, I 875 00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:05,600 Speaker 1: recall reading at some point that the pulsar map on 876 00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:08,920 Speaker 1: the plaque will no longer be accurate in the future. 877 00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:11,399 Speaker 1: I'm not sure about that one though. Yeah, you got 878 00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:13,040 Speaker 1: to read the fine print at a bottom the plaque 879 00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:18,600 Speaker 1: limited time offer. But pulsars are not the only option. 880 00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:21,040 Speaker 1: I was actually reading a piece about this question in 881 00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:25,080 Speaker 1: space dot com from one by an astrophysicist named Paul 882 00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:28,839 Speaker 1: Sutter who is at UH Sunny Stony Brook and the 883 00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:32,000 Speaker 1: Flat Iron Institute in New York, and he was talking 884 00:50:32,040 --> 00:50:35,120 Speaker 1: in this UH piece about about a paper showing that 885 00:50:35,160 --> 00:50:39,040 Speaker 1: you could use pairs of stars to establish position in 886 00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:42,760 Speaker 1: interstellar travel. So I think in theory it could be done. 887 00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:45,520 Speaker 1: But uh, there there are a lot of challenges probably 888 00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:49,560 Speaker 1: ahead if we actually do become an interstellar traveling species. Uh, 889 00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:51,520 Speaker 1: you know, there's a lot we're gonna have to figure out. 890 00:50:51,560 --> 00:50:54,000 Speaker 1: And we may not have spice to aid us by 891 00:50:54,120 --> 00:50:56,800 Speaker 1: by creating pressuants that allows us to predict the future, 892 00:50:57,120 --> 00:50:59,640 Speaker 1: but there is going to be an awful lot of 893 00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:03,600 Speaker 1: of how highly precise calculation involved. So yeah, we're gonna 894 00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:06,120 Speaker 1: have to we're gonna have turn to computers until you know, 895 00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:08,960 Speaker 1: we decided we should. We can't use computers anymore, right, 896 00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:18,000 Speaker 1: thank now, I'd like to come back to the philosophy 897 00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:20,680 Speaker 1: and outlook of the Space and Guild UM. I was 898 00:51:20,719 --> 00:51:23,919 Speaker 1: reading in the Philosophy of doone and there's a there's 899 00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:27,400 Speaker 1: an article titled A Universe of Bastards by Matthew A. 900 00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:31,759 Speaker 1: Buttkas and Um. In it, Budkas describes the Guild as 901 00:51:31,960 --> 00:51:36,440 Speaker 1: um as having quote a parasitic relationship with political power. 902 00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:40,239 Speaker 1: So in this what he's driving, what he's pointing out, 903 00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:43,680 Speaker 1: is that the Guild wields tremendous power, even power over 904 00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:48,560 Speaker 1: the emperor, but they never actually rule. They can't actually rule, 905 00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:52,400 Speaker 1: They can't risk disrupting the flow of spice. They depend 906 00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:55,200 Speaker 1: on it. Absolutely. You take the spice away and the 907 00:51:55,280 --> 00:51:58,480 Speaker 1: Guild cannot do the thing that gives them the power. 908 00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:02,720 Speaker 1: And he points out again that the Guild has no armies, 909 00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:07,160 Speaker 1: but it doesn't need to because it absolutely controls transport 910 00:52:07,160 --> 00:52:10,759 Speaker 1: and trade between worlds. And I found this quite interesting 911 00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:13,719 Speaker 1: because it made me think about, you know, historically, what's 912 00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:17,600 Speaker 1: what's one of the things that armies do. Um, you know, 913 00:52:17,680 --> 00:52:22,200 Speaker 1: one huge role is disrupting trade. Um. To besiege a 914 00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:25,080 Speaker 1: walled city is to cut off its trade and travel 915 00:52:25,160 --> 00:52:29,520 Speaker 1: and starve it into submission. UM. I was treading about 916 00:52:29,719 --> 00:52:32,120 Speaker 1: sieges a while back, and that's that's a you know, 917 00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:34,960 Speaker 1: in the cinematic sense, we often think, well, the siege 918 00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:38,000 Speaker 1: is about like breaking down walls, getting in there and 919 00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:41,200 Speaker 1: then taking over the city. But generally it's it's more 920 00:52:41,239 --> 00:52:44,400 Speaker 1: about strangling the city until the people who live there, 921 00:52:44,480 --> 00:52:47,160 Speaker 1: or the and or the people who rule there give 922 00:52:47,239 --> 00:52:50,480 Speaker 1: in and open the doors themselves. Yeah. And I think 923 00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:52,840 Speaker 1: a lot of the same could be said about navies. 924 00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:55,200 Speaker 1: A lot of the history of navies is also about 925 00:52:55,239 --> 00:52:58,560 Speaker 1: interrupting trade, you know, trying to block access to ports 926 00:52:58,719 --> 00:53:02,239 Speaker 1: or trying to intercept trade vessels. Yeah. And so the 927 00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:05,080 Speaker 1: interesting thing about the Guild here is whether you're talking 928 00:53:05,080 --> 00:53:09,040 Speaker 1: about blockades or besiegement, they have this power already, Like 929 00:53:09,080 --> 00:53:11,560 Speaker 1: it's they don't need an army to do it all 930 00:53:11,600 --> 00:53:15,040 Speaker 1: that because they they are the only ones who can 931 00:53:15,080 --> 00:53:19,440 Speaker 1: operate movement between worlds. UM. So by its very nature, 932 00:53:19,480 --> 00:53:22,560 Speaker 1: the Guild is in a constant state of besiegement or 933 00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:26,680 Speaker 1: potential besiegement with every planet in the imperium. Now, Buckus 934 00:53:26,680 --> 00:53:29,440 Speaker 1: goes on to compare the politics of Dune to Thomas 935 00:53:29,480 --> 00:53:34,440 Speaker 1: Hobbs work Leviathan, in which the author quote establishes a 936 00:53:34,560 --> 00:53:38,239 Speaker 1: theoretical state of existence in which there is no centralized authority, 937 00:53:38,520 --> 00:53:41,080 Speaker 1: but rather a collection of individuals looking out for their 938 00:53:41,120 --> 00:53:43,880 Speaker 1: own interests. Now, um, you know, you might say, well, 939 00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:46,080 Speaker 1: isn't there an emperor in Dune. Well, yes, there is 940 00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:48,920 Speaker 1: an emperor in Dune. But again, the emperor's in the 941 00:53:48,920 --> 00:53:51,680 Speaker 1: Emperor's house is part of that tripod, and it's all 942 00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:55,040 Speaker 1: in this this uh, this political balance. So it's not 943 00:53:55,120 --> 00:53:59,840 Speaker 1: like the emperor actually does have absolute control over everything. 944 00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:03,880 Speaker 1: Again talking about the the emperor that is present during 945 00:54:04,360 --> 00:54:09,759 Speaker 1: during the first Dune book. Um, so when Dune, it's 946 00:54:09,800 --> 00:54:13,759 Speaker 1: not individuals but factions uh that are that are the 947 00:54:13,800 --> 00:54:17,960 Speaker 1: ones looking after their own interests. Uh, their fights, their feuds, 948 00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:21,080 Speaker 1: and these fights and feuds ultimately can threaten the stability 949 00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:23,200 Speaker 1: of everything. And that comes back to the way that 950 00:54:23,239 --> 00:54:27,000 Speaker 1: the guild operates itself again, because the guild very much 951 00:54:27,080 --> 00:54:30,960 Speaker 1: wants stability, at least so far as its spice goes, 952 00:54:31,360 --> 00:54:33,480 Speaker 1: they don't want to do anything to threaten that supply. 953 00:54:34,040 --> 00:54:36,520 Speaker 1: So another interesting aspect of the Space and Guild is 954 00:54:36,239 --> 00:54:38,319 Speaker 1: to is to come back to the way it makes decisions. 955 00:54:38,880 --> 00:54:42,279 Speaker 1: Um Again, we're envisioning the Steersman, these augmented and or 956 00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:46,160 Speaker 1: mutated humans who literally breathe spice in order to generate 957 00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:50,680 Speaker 1: the sort of of limited uh UM precedents necessary to 958 00:54:50,719 --> 00:54:53,360 Speaker 1: travel through space and hyperspace, and a big part of 959 00:54:53,360 --> 00:54:57,120 Speaker 1: this entails seeing what the most immediate dangers are and 960 00:54:57,200 --> 00:55:01,400 Speaker 1: dodging them and so subsequently, one of Paul's biggest insights 961 00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:05,200 Speaker 1: is that the Guild commands you know, such power over 962 00:55:05,239 --> 00:55:08,480 Speaker 1: everything and their dependence on They depend on spice for 963 00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:11,000 Speaker 1: their power, so they end up making all of their 964 00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:14,720 Speaker 1: decisions in a similar fashion. They always choose the safe 965 00:55:14,760 --> 00:55:18,319 Speaker 1: immediate path. And while this ensures survival in the short 966 00:55:18,440 --> 00:55:21,280 Speaker 1: term and it keeps keeps the spice flowing for them, 967 00:55:21,480 --> 00:55:24,720 Speaker 1: it will eventually in the long term lead to stagnation 968 00:55:25,200 --> 00:55:28,719 Speaker 1: for you know, the entire human endeavor. Oh, this is 969 00:55:28,760 --> 00:55:32,080 Speaker 1: back to the first fit versus best fit uh term. 970 00:55:32,719 --> 00:55:35,239 Speaker 1: So it's interesting to think about this in terms of 971 00:55:35,400 --> 00:55:38,880 Speaker 1: cognitive bias, to sort of reverse the Leviathan scenario and 972 00:55:38,880 --> 00:55:42,040 Speaker 1: go back from the faction to the individual um as 973 00:55:42,080 --> 00:55:45,320 Speaker 1: pointed out by Lauren and Grishma in the safety bias 974 00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:50,040 Speaker 1: published in Behavior Change in Risk Avoidance is one possible 975 00:55:50,040 --> 00:55:55,560 Speaker 1: mechanism by which personality characteristics may be linked to anxiety pathology, 976 00:55:55,840 --> 00:55:58,600 Speaker 1: and we see risk perceptions factor into a number of 977 00:55:58,600 --> 00:56:02,120 Speaker 1: cognitive biases, include zero risk bias, in which there's a 978 00:56:02,120 --> 00:56:06,120 Speaker 1: tendency to try to eliminate eliminate a particular risk while 979 00:56:06,200 --> 00:56:10,239 Speaker 1: other options would produce a greater overall risk reduction. Okay, 980 00:56:10,280 --> 00:56:12,759 Speaker 1: So in a sci fi scenario, if I understand that, right, 981 00:56:12,800 --> 00:56:15,560 Speaker 1: that would be saying like, Okay, we're going to design 982 00:56:15,600 --> 00:56:20,239 Speaker 1: a spaceship that cannot possibly be destroyed by the biplasma 983 00:56:20,280 --> 00:56:23,640 Speaker 1: canons from from another spaceship, but in fact that spaceship 984 00:56:23,760 --> 00:56:26,799 Speaker 1: is very prone to uh to like toxic build up 985 00:56:26,840 --> 00:56:29,440 Speaker 1: of of c O two in the you know, atmosphere 986 00:56:29,440 --> 00:56:34,200 Speaker 1: processors or whatever. That you're just like overly focusing on 987 00:56:34,200 --> 00:56:37,520 Speaker 1: one type of risk while ignoring others, right, Um. I 988 00:56:37,520 --> 00:56:39,839 Speaker 1: think things like you know, the War on Terror are 989 00:56:39,880 --> 00:56:42,239 Speaker 1: sometimes brought up as an example of this too, like 990 00:56:42,320 --> 00:56:46,880 Speaker 1: laser focusing on one particular threat when some might argue 991 00:56:47,000 --> 00:56:50,520 Speaker 1: that if that same amount of energy went into other things, uh, 992 00:56:50,640 --> 00:56:53,399 Speaker 1: then you would have you know, it would it would 993 00:56:53,440 --> 00:56:56,640 Speaker 1: result in greater safety, um and perhaps in a more 994 00:56:56,680 --> 00:57:01,400 Speaker 1: meaningful sense. Right. There's also risk sensation theory, which holds 995 00:57:01,440 --> 00:57:05,360 Speaker 1: that people adjust their behavior in response to perceived risk levels. 996 00:57:05,640 --> 00:57:08,800 Speaker 1: If they feel protected, they tend to be less careful. 997 00:57:09,360 --> 00:57:14,279 Speaker 1: The more risks they perceive, the more careful they become. Um. 998 00:57:14,360 --> 00:57:17,120 Speaker 1: And I was I was reading that, like one interpretation 999 00:57:17,160 --> 00:57:19,680 Speaker 1: of this has to do with um, you know, like 1000 00:57:19,680 --> 00:57:24,600 Speaker 1: like safety gear and things like skydiving where uh, like 1001 00:57:24,720 --> 00:57:30,720 Speaker 1: skydiving from a methods and material since it has become 1002 00:57:30,760 --> 00:57:35,680 Speaker 1: increasingly safer to do. But that means people feel safer 1003 00:57:36,040 --> 00:57:39,160 Speaker 1: skydiving and they're more likely to take certain risks that 1004 00:57:39,240 --> 00:57:42,360 Speaker 1: sort of thing. It also reminds me of insights that 1005 00:57:42,400 --> 00:57:46,200 Speaker 1: I've read about climbing, where like, like you know, mountain climbing, 1006 00:57:46,480 --> 00:57:49,840 Speaker 1: where the danger is not the part where you're you're 1007 00:57:49,920 --> 00:57:52,720 Speaker 1: hyper focused on every little thing you do. It's when 1008 00:57:52,800 --> 00:57:56,480 Speaker 1: certain actions become kind of automatic and you kind of 1009 00:57:56,520 --> 00:58:00,120 Speaker 1: I guess to a certain extent you feel safe, Um, 1010 00:57:59,400 --> 00:58:02,760 Speaker 1: you're going to be more careful if you feel the danger. 1011 00:58:03,320 --> 00:58:06,200 Speaker 1: But but coming back to this, this idea of a 1012 00:58:06,320 --> 00:58:09,040 Speaker 1: risk compensation theory. I was wondering how it might equate 1013 00:58:09,080 --> 00:58:12,160 Speaker 1: to the Guild. So via their abilities, they're constantly not 1014 00:58:12,280 --> 00:58:16,800 Speaker 1: only confronting simulations of possible doom, which of course us 1015 00:58:16,840 --> 00:58:19,280 Speaker 1: normal humans do all the time. You know, we engage 1016 00:58:19,280 --> 00:58:23,800 Speaker 1: in in um, in simulating possible outcomes uh that are positive, 1017 00:58:23,840 --> 00:58:25,760 Speaker 1: but also ones that are negative, and that can lead 1018 00:58:25,800 --> 00:58:29,840 Speaker 1: into a sort of fantasizing about potential doom. But the 1019 00:58:29,840 --> 00:58:32,480 Speaker 1: Guild they seem to go beyond that. They have actual 1020 00:58:32,680 --> 00:58:36,360 Speaker 1: visions of dooms that they have to cleverly dodge as 1021 00:58:36,400 --> 00:58:40,960 Speaker 1: they navigate um, either you know, through space travel or politically. 1022 00:58:41,680 --> 00:58:44,120 Speaker 1: So do they end up giving into these visions of 1023 00:58:44,160 --> 00:58:48,480 Speaker 1: doom and grow increasingly careful, or at least in some cases, 1024 00:58:48,520 --> 00:58:50,960 Speaker 1: do they feel safe and protected by their use of 1025 00:58:51,000 --> 00:58:55,000 Speaker 1: the spice? I think I think probably with the Space 1026 00:58:55,000 --> 00:58:57,880 Speaker 1: and Guild, we're talking about the overly careful side of 1027 00:58:57,920 --> 00:58:59,760 Speaker 1: things here. That seems to be in keeping with the 1028 00:58:59,760 --> 00:59:01,880 Speaker 1: same fist path of the Guild and so forth in 1029 00:59:01,920 --> 00:59:05,040 Speaker 1: the way they're characterized. But perhaps the comfort afforded by 1030 00:59:05,080 --> 00:59:08,920 Speaker 1: the Spice allows them to engage in some bolder maneuvers, 1031 00:59:09,160 --> 00:59:11,440 Speaker 1: at least so far as it doesn't threaten the supply 1032 00:59:11,480 --> 00:59:15,520 Speaker 1: of spice. Um, it seems to be a constant. Anything 1033 00:59:15,560 --> 00:59:18,160 Speaker 1: that threatens the spice that's just a no go, like 1034 00:59:18,160 --> 00:59:22,080 Speaker 1: like almost zero zero risk can be taken when it 1035 00:59:22,120 --> 00:59:25,680 Speaker 1: comes to that supply chain. Right. So it's interesting with 1036 00:59:25,720 --> 00:59:28,760 Speaker 1: the Beni Jester in the Space and Guild um because 1037 00:59:29,720 --> 00:59:31,680 Speaker 1: on a very basic level, and I think that's one 1038 00:59:31,720 --> 00:59:33,280 Speaker 1: of the great things about Done is that you can 1039 00:59:33,360 --> 00:59:35,960 Speaker 1: look at it at different levels. On one level, it's 1040 00:59:36,000 --> 00:59:38,480 Speaker 1: like these are just the sci fi magic versus sci 1041 00:59:38,520 --> 00:59:43,040 Speaker 1: fi science, right, it's which is versus um techno wizards 1042 00:59:43,040 --> 00:59:45,439 Speaker 1: of a sort you know. Um. But then it also 1043 00:59:45,600 --> 00:59:47,720 Speaker 1: it goes a lot deeper than that. It gets into 1044 00:59:47,880 --> 00:59:51,040 Speaker 1: like the ways they think, um, you know, short term 1045 00:59:51,040 --> 00:59:55,320 Speaker 1: and long term thinking, and how they engage in risk, etcetera. Yeah, 1046 00:59:55,320 --> 00:59:57,360 Speaker 1: I didn't think about that. So you're setting up the 1047 00:59:57,400 --> 01:00:00,720 Speaker 1: contrast that the Bennie Jess being concerned with politics, are 1048 01:00:00,880 --> 01:00:04,480 Speaker 1: very they're very much engaged in long term strategic thinking, 1049 01:00:04,480 --> 01:00:09,520 Speaker 1: whereas the Spacing Guild being very immediate task oriented or 1050 01:00:09,640 --> 01:00:13,120 Speaker 1: just like they're thinking one step ahead always. Yeah, like 1051 01:00:13,320 --> 01:00:15,120 Speaker 1: have the been adjustment? For instance, we're told you know 1052 01:00:15,120 --> 01:00:18,360 Speaker 1: that they will actually make sure that things are inserted 1053 01:00:18,520 --> 01:00:22,960 Speaker 1: into native religions on various worlds. Uh that give them 1054 01:00:23,000 --> 01:00:25,520 Speaker 1: an out that like like, oh yeah, well, in our 1055 01:00:25,560 --> 01:00:28,720 Speaker 1: in our traditions, it does say that if a UM, 1056 01:00:28,960 --> 01:00:31,360 Speaker 1: if a strange woman from another planet shows up, we're 1057 01:00:31,400 --> 01:00:35,440 Speaker 1: supposed to give her a spaceship, you know, um come 1058 01:00:35,480 --> 01:00:38,160 Speaker 1: in handy a thousand years from now. Yeah, it might 1059 01:00:38,200 --> 01:00:40,240 Speaker 1: come in handy a thousand years from now, So we're 1060 01:00:40,280 --> 01:00:43,280 Speaker 1: going to do it. Um. Whereas the Guild, they would 1061 01:00:43,280 --> 01:00:45,400 Speaker 1: be asking different questions. They're like, well does that what 1062 01:00:45,480 --> 01:00:48,960 Speaker 1: does it mean for our survival one minute from now? 1063 01:00:49,280 --> 01:00:52,320 Speaker 1: And what does it mean regarding our supply of the spice? 1064 01:00:52,840 --> 01:00:55,040 Speaker 1: And I saw some papers online. I didn't really get 1065 01:00:55,080 --> 01:00:56,800 Speaker 1: into these so much, but there was one I noticed 1066 01:00:56,840 --> 01:00:59,760 Speaker 1: that was looking at themes of addiction in Dune and 1067 01:01:00,080 --> 01:01:02,560 Speaker 1: or the Rings um, you know, because they both deal 1068 01:01:02,680 --> 01:01:05,000 Speaker 1: with I guess addiction to some extent. You say that 1069 01:01:05,080 --> 01:01:08,080 Speaker 1: that the ring is an addiction, the power that comes 1070 01:01:08,160 --> 01:01:10,120 Speaker 1: with the ring as an addiction, and of course the 1071 01:01:10,160 --> 01:01:13,440 Speaker 1: Guild is in a very real sense addicted to the 1072 01:01:13,440 --> 01:01:18,400 Speaker 1: spice Um, but um and and and makes its its 1073 01:01:18,480 --> 01:01:20,680 Speaker 1: choices in the way that I guess could be comparable 1074 01:01:20,720 --> 01:01:24,360 Speaker 1: to some sort of personal addiction level. Uh. At any rate, 1075 01:01:24,520 --> 01:01:27,080 Speaker 1: there's just another example of all the different levels at 1076 01:01:27,080 --> 01:01:30,680 Speaker 1: which you might engage with Dune. Got to engage them all. 1077 01:01:32,800 --> 01:01:34,880 Speaker 1: All right, Well, we're gonna go ahead and close it 1078 01:01:34,920 --> 01:01:37,400 Speaker 1: out there. I think this will be it for for 1079 01:01:37,480 --> 01:01:41,520 Speaker 1: this journey into the Done universe. But hey, when Dune 1080 01:01:41,560 --> 01:01:43,600 Speaker 1: Part two comes out, maybe we'll dive back in. Maybe 1081 01:01:43,640 --> 01:01:47,200 Speaker 1: it'll be something else we get a hanker in to discuss. Oh, 1082 01:01:47,240 --> 01:01:49,480 Speaker 1: I'm sure there will be more, and of course we'd 1083 01:01:49,480 --> 01:01:51,560 Speaker 1: love to hear from everyone out there. You have insight 1084 01:01:52,080 --> 01:01:54,480 Speaker 1: into any of this based on your own experience with 1085 01:01:54,520 --> 01:01:57,120 Speaker 1: the the Done universe, no matter which path that ends 1086 01:01:57,200 --> 01:02:00,880 Speaker 1: up taking. You know, the original novels, the Seek and prequels, 1087 01:02:00,960 --> 01:02:03,200 Speaker 1: the movies, the video games. We didn't even get into 1088 01:02:03,200 --> 01:02:08,600 Speaker 1: the video games. Oh yeah, there's like a Commanding Conqueror 1089 01:02:08,640 --> 01:02:12,000 Speaker 1: style game, but it was Dune. Yeah, various real time 1090 01:02:12,040 --> 01:02:14,320 Speaker 1: strategy type things. I never actually played any of them, 1091 01:02:14,360 --> 01:02:17,480 Speaker 1: but but I've remember looking at stuff about them and 1092 01:02:17,520 --> 01:02:20,840 Speaker 1: they look cool. Um. There's also big board game presence. 1093 01:02:20,880 --> 01:02:24,560 Speaker 1: There's of course, the classic Done board game, which I 1094 01:02:24,560 --> 01:02:27,000 Speaker 1: I um, I got a copy of Man and I 1095 01:02:27,080 --> 01:02:29,520 Speaker 1: got it during the pandemic, so it's it's never been played, 1096 01:02:29,560 --> 01:02:34,040 Speaker 1: and they're they're a couple of of newer doune board 1097 01:02:34,080 --> 01:02:36,720 Speaker 1: games that also look very exciting, especially since they both 1098 01:02:36,720 --> 01:02:40,080 Speaker 1: have a single player modes, which you know is certainly 1099 01:02:40,120 --> 01:02:43,840 Speaker 1: a little easier to achieve, if maybe not as socially engaging. Anyway, 1100 01:02:43,880 --> 01:02:46,640 Speaker 1: whatever your experience, if you have thoughts right in, we'd 1101 01:02:46,640 --> 01:02:49,000 Speaker 1: love to hear from you. In the meantime, if you'd 1102 01:02:49,000 --> 01:02:50,680 Speaker 1: like to check out other episodes of Stuff to Blow 1103 01:02:50,720 --> 01:02:52,840 Speaker 1: Your Mind, you can find them in the Stuff to 1104 01:02:52,880 --> 01:02:55,760 Speaker 1: Blow your Mind podcast feed You'll get that wherever you 1105 01:02:55,800 --> 01:03:00,000 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. We have core episodes on two season Thursdays, 1106 01:03:00,000 --> 01:03:02,920 Speaker 1: listener Mail on Monday's Artifact on Wednesday, and on Friday 1107 01:03:03,160 --> 01:03:05,720 Speaker 1: we do a little weird House Cinema. That's our time 1108 01:03:05,760 --> 01:03:07,960 Speaker 1: to set aside most of the serious concerns and just 1109 01:03:08,040 --> 01:03:11,760 Speaker 1: talk about a strange film. Huge thanks as always to 1110 01:03:11,800 --> 01:03:15,280 Speaker 1: our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you would 1111 01:03:15,280 --> 01:03:17,160 Speaker 1: like to get in touch with us with feedback on 1112 01:03:17,200 --> 01:03:19,400 Speaker 1: this episode or any other, to suggest a topic for 1113 01:03:19,440 --> 01:03:21,480 Speaker 1: the future, or just to sayll oh, you can email 1114 01:03:21,600 --> 01:03:24,720 Speaker 1: us at contact that's Stuff to Blow your Mind. Podcasts 1115 01:03:32,320 --> 01:03:34,800 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow your Mind is production of I heart Radio. 1116 01:03:35,160 --> 01:03:37,480 Speaker 1: For more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit the iHeart 1117 01:03:37,560 --> 01:03:40,280 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listening to your 1118 01:03:40,320 --> 01:03:53,560 Speaker 1: favorite shows.