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Speaker 1: Hi.

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Speaker 2: I'm Laura Vanderkamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist,

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Speaker 2: and speaker.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Sarah hart Hunger, a mother of three, practicing physician,

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Speaker 3: writer and course creator. We are two working parents who

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Speaker 3: love our careers and our families.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about

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Speaker 2: how real women manage work, family, and time for fun.

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Speaker 2: From figuring out childcare to mapping out long.

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Speaker 1: Term career goals.

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Speaker 2: We want you to get the most out of life.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura. This

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Speaker 1: episode is airing in April of twenty twenty six.

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Speaker 2: I am going to be interviewing Christine Tully, who is

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Speaker 2: a professor at Fendla University.

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Speaker 1: She came across my radar.

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Speaker 2: Because she did a large study of how academic mothers

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Speaker 2: spend their time using time diaries, looking at all one

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Speaker 2: hundred and sixty eight hours of the week. Came to

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Speaker 2: some interesting conclusions about what people who are successfully building

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Speaker 2: their academic careers while raising kids do, perhaps differently than

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Speaker 2: other people. So I talk with her a lot about

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Speaker 2: that fascinating stuff.

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Speaker 3: I am curious in terms of who comes to you

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Speaker 3: asking for time use advice is academics the highest proportion

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Speaker 3: or what would you say, is like the top five

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Speaker 3: industries that people are in.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean a lot of times it's basic

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Speaker 2: corporate stuff and then people in sort of fields known

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Speaker 2: for longer hours, like the legal world or the accounting world.

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Speaker 2: But I have studied quite a few academic time logs

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Speaker 2: over the years, and I think the challenge for academia,

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Speaker 2: like getting tenure in many cases is the goal, and

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Speaker 2: it's very much an upper out kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: And then when you get tenure, that's.

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Speaker 2: Like you've arrived, I guess in the academic world, but

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Speaker 2: you know, it takes a lot of research and publications

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Speaker 2: to get there that you have to do that's kind

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Speaker 2: of outside the basic requirements of your job, right, Like

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Speaker 2: you're doing teaching, but that is not all you are doing, right,

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Speaker 2: and so you have to make time for highly speculative projects,

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Speaker 2: for always having projects running, and like articles on submission,

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Speaker 2: because then it takes a while for them to get published.

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Speaker 2: And so you very much have to manage this whole

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Speaker 2: extra thing in addition to your job, and that can

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Speaker 2: be challenging when people need childcare for their kids, or

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Speaker 2: kids get sick or there's kid activities or whatever else,

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Speaker 2: like managing all those requirements that are never necessarily urgent

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Speaker 2: but do have to be done. So that's what I

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Speaker 2: really enjoyed about Christine's study is that she looked at

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Speaker 2: that question and yeah, I'm glad to see.

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Speaker 4: What she came up with it.

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Speaker 2: You know, if it's a little loud, I hope nobody's

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Speaker 2: hearing the music. We are here at Vero Beach.

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Speaker 3: Again, I don't think it's going to be loud, So

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Speaker 3: it'll be very interesting to know. If people tell us

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Speaker 3: there's a party on the end of the mic, party

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Speaker 3: the interview will not.

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Speaker 2: The interview will not have the party on the end

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Speaker 2: of the mic. So really excited to hear from Christine.

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Speaker 2: So let's hear what she has to say. Well, Sarah

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Speaker 2: and I are delighted to welcome Christine Tolly to Best

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Speaker 2: of Both Worlds. Christine, welcome to the show.

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Speaker 4: Thank you. I appreciate that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we're glad to have you. Why don't you tell

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Speaker 2: our listeners a little bit about yourself?

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Speaker 5: That sounds great. I'm a professor of English at the

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Speaker 5: University of Finley, and I work a lot on time

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Speaker 5: management and faculty productivity.

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Speaker 2: Awesome, Well, we are all about productivity here. We love that.

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Speaker 2: And so you wrote a whole book, Productivity, Professionalism, and

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Speaker 2: Parenting in Academia about productivity and time use and things

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Speaker 2: like that. Why don't you tell us about the project.

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Speaker 2: How did you become involved in that?

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Speaker 5: Well, you were a little bit of the inspiration for

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Speaker 5: that project, Laura. I should say that I've got interested

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Speaker 5: in time news Diaries somewhat because of the book that

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Speaker 5: you had. I think it was called I Know How

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Speaker 5: She Does It? Hopefully I got the title right. And

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Speaker 5: I was really thinking about how academic mothers like myself

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Speaker 5: are able to balance the teaching, the research, the publication service,

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Speaker 5: and all those sorts of things with children at home.

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Speaker 5: And one of the reasons I chose the project is

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Speaker 5: because not many people are at full professor, which is

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Speaker 5: the highest rank you can get as a professor. It's

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Speaker 5: after you achieve tenure, and it usually requires quite a

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Speaker 5: bit of publication and disciplinary service, including travel to conferences

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Speaker 5: and being a journal editor and all these other things.

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Speaker 4: And as you.

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Speaker 5: Get higher in the ranks, there are fewer and fewer

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Speaker 5: mothers in that group. And so one of the reasons

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Speaker 5: I wanted to do. The project was to find out, specifically,

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Speaker 5: in these little blocks, how are these women who do

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Speaker 5: have children and have these very high profile, high achieving

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Speaker 5: professor careers, how are they making time to do scholarship

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Speaker 5: because that's the currency that moves everybody in the discipline.

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Speaker 2: Well, maybe you could explain to this that people who

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Speaker 2: are not in academia. I mean, there's this stuff you

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Speaker 2: basically have to do. I mean there's the teaching. That's

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Speaker 2: what people sort of know from college and their professors.

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Speaker 2: But that's not just what people get tenure based on.

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Speaker 5: True, So what happens in a tenure scenario. So it

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Speaker 5: seems like professor is sort of like being a high

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Speaker 5: school teacher, except maybe older kids, and it doesn't really

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Speaker 5: lay out like that for a.

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Speaker 4: Lot of reasons.

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Speaker 5: One of the things that's nice about being a professor

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Speaker 5: sort of a double edged sword, is that there is

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Speaker 5: time flexibility, meaning you don't teach a high school schedule

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Speaker 5: from say nine am to two pm or something like that.

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Speaker 5: But one of the things that comes with that is

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Speaker 5: that while you're going to classes for say a couple

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Speaker 5: of hours a day or maybe a total of twelve

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Speaker 5: hours a week in addition to that, you're required to

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Speaker 5: serve on university committees, and then the publication part of

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Speaker 5: that comes is part of your way to get tenure,

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Speaker 5: which would be considered sort of lifetime employment unless your

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Speaker 5: university closes. And why universities want you to publish and

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Speaker 5: present your work is that universities are competitive. It's just

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Speaker 5: like any other business. You want to be the best

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Speaker 5: one out there. And the more professors they have publishing

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Speaker 5: and putting workout and getting noted for their research, it's

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Speaker 5: better for these universities. It attracts students for one thing,

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Speaker 5: but it's also great for them just in general for

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Speaker 5: pr and make sure they have sort of the best

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Speaker 5: and brightest minds. But that work, that mental work takes

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Speaker 5: a lot of focus. It takes a lot of quiet time,

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Speaker 5: and if you're an active parent, it's really difficult to

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Speaker 5: sort of juggle things like other professors without children can

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Speaker 5: work forty fifty sixty hours a week. If you're a mom,

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Speaker 5: you still have a school pickup at two thirty like

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Speaker 5: I do today.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, and the challenge here is that a lot

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Speaker 2: of the scholarship is not straightforward, like you put eight

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Speaker 2: hours into this and you get X out right. It's

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Speaker 2: that you're coming up with an idea of something you

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Speaker 2: want to research and coming up with a way to

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Speaker 2: do that, and then writing it up and sending it

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Speaker 2: around to various places, some of which may or may

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Speaker 2: not want it.

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Speaker 1: I mean, there's a lot of uncertainty to it, right.

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Speaker 2: This is one of the things the challenge is finding

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Speaker 2: space for uncertain work.

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Speaker 5: That's absolutely true. And it's also the fact that you

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Speaker 5: never know project to projects. So one of the things

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Speaker 5: that I do on the side is I run a

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Speaker 5: writing coaching company called Defend, Publish and Lead for professors

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Speaker 5: that want to publish books and articles. And I'm all

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Speaker 5: of my work now as in faculty productivity and finding

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Speaker 5: out ways to do that. But the number one part

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Speaker 5: of that is that it's a way to deal with

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Speaker 5: that uncertainty. So when we talk with different clients, I

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Speaker 5: have several other professors working with me, and one of

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Speaker 5: the things that we'll do is we say, what are

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Speaker 5: your time realities this semester? What are the time realities

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Speaker 5: of that particular project. Because it's very easy to fall

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Speaker 5: into the trap that just because I've been a professor

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Speaker 5: lass semester it means I have the same time this

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Speaker 5: semester as I did last semester, but that's not true

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Speaker 5: because professor's schedules move around all the time. Like last semester,

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Speaker 5: I might have had a nine am class Monday Wednesday Friday,

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Speaker 5: but now I have a class at eleven Monday, Wednesday Friday.

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Speaker 5: And one of the things with writing and trying to

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Speaker 5: do a lot of that mental work and the very

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Speaker 5: uncertain timeline of how long is it going to take

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Speaker 5: me to do this article, is that you have to

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Speaker 5: have new writing habits every semester. And that's one of

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Speaker 5: the things that I built my company on is just

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Speaker 5: acknowledging that's how it is, that that's the reality. You

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Speaker 5: might have some things that are portable. So for example,

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Speaker 5: you might have a ritual to get yourself in the

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Speaker 5: mood to write. You might have like a special way

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Speaker 5: that you like listen to a say a playlist on Spotify.

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Speaker 5: That's something that I know I do. I just kind

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Speaker 5: of do that as sort of a queue to say, hey,

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Speaker 5: time to sit down and now we're going to work

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Speaker 5: on this article. But I still don't really know at

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Speaker 5: the end of the day, is it going to take

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Speaker 5: me a total of fifty hours to write this article.

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Speaker 5: Is it going to be twenty two? I just don't know.

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Speaker 5: And that's even with wanting to write, being motivated to write, etc.

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Speaker 5: So like for faculty members and especially really busy moms

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Speaker 5: having to write on demand when sometimes you don't feel

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Speaker 5: like it, or you stayed up with a baby all

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Speaker 5: night or something like that, it's a challenge.

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Speaker 1: Really absolutely.

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Speaker 2: So tell me about the time diarys you collect, what

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Speaker 2: was sort of the format, and how did you recruit

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Speaker 2: people for this project?

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Speaker 4: So they did.

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Speaker 5: They tracked one week and one of the things that

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Speaker 5: I did with them is I opened the project up

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Speaker 5: for eighteen months because busy academic moms, who are my

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Speaker 5: target market, I might get them in the wrong week.

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Speaker 5: I just honestly might get them in the wrong week

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Speaker 5: They've got sick kids, or they just aren't able to

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Speaker 5: pull off completing it. And it really did model the

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Speaker 5: one that you had in your book with the half

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Speaker 5: hour slots in one week. They were allowed to do them.

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Speaker 5: They were open ended diaries, meaning I let them record

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Speaker 5: whatever they wanted in those little blocks. They could write

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Speaker 5: as much as they wanted in the block or as

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Speaker 5: little as they wanted to and then along with the

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Speaker 5: time youse diary, there was a very short questionnaire just

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Speaker 5: about writing habits in general, just some patterns that they

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Speaker 5: might have about writing, and just kind of maybe a

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Speaker 5: look at what I'm not seeing in the diary about

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Speaker 5: how they operated with completing bigger tasks like career advancement

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Speaker 5: type things. How much time do you put in a

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Speaker 5: week working on a CE or applying for a new

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Speaker 5: job or something like that. And of course I'm only

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Speaker 5: getting one week, so I'm not looking at a whole

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Speaker 5: year or how all these hours added up. But I

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Speaker 5: did not put any kind of restrictions on them about

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Speaker 5: what kind of week it was. Almost everybody, though, did

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Speaker 5: fill one out during the academic year. I got very

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Speaker 5: few in the summer, so maybe two out of one hundred,

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Speaker 5: So it just wasn't really, it wasn't that many.

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Speaker 4: It's because everybody has children at home.

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Speaker 5: They're not going to even though it sounds like there's

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Speaker 5: a lot of time in the summer, because we're not

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Speaker 5: in the semester, we're at home with children. So yeah,

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Speaker 5: and then they were able to when they completed the

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Speaker 5: time use diary, they could give it back to me,

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Speaker 5: and they could also make comments. They could do whatever

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Speaker 5: they wanted to in addition to the diary. So I

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Speaker 5: got those, and then I also got emails that would

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Speaker 5: explain things to me, like you'll see that I'm missing

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Speaker 5: two hours on Wednesday. That's because I completely had you know,

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Speaker 5: I had no idea what I did on Wednesday. I

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Speaker 5: really could not remember when I got to the end

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Speaker 5: of the day what I did. So I did see

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Speaker 5: like some of those holes in there. And the other

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Speaker 5: thing that was really interesting is that people will call

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Speaker 5: work different types of things. So I would look and

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Speaker 5: I would see somebody was writing, but I didn't know

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Speaker 5: if they were writing for publication or they were doing

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Speaker 5: some say like bullet journaling in the morning about something.

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Speaker 5: So one of the things I did have to go

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Speaker 5: back to do was to clarify a few of the

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Speaker 5: diaries I wasn't sure about. But most people wrote a

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Speaker 5: lot of things in the entries, and there was a

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Speaker 5: very high level of multitasking in many of those entries.

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Speaker 2: Well, we're going to hear a little bit more about

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Speaker 2: your findings after we take our first ad break.

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Speaker 1: Well, I am back.

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Speaker 2: I'm talking with Christine Tully, who's a professor of English

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Speaker 2: and director of Writing at the University of Finley. She

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Speaker 2: did a massive project looking at academic mothers and how

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Speaker 2: they spent their time. So what did you find to like,

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Speaker 2: what were some of your key findings coming out of

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Speaker 2: this project.

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Speaker 5: One of the things that I paid attention to, and

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Speaker 5: I probably got a little bit of pushback on this,

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Speaker 5: is I was really interested in the pocket of mothers

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Speaker 5: that I identified as those that had integrating or integrated

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Speaker 5: scholarly writing habits, meaning they were integrated in the rest

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Speaker 5: of their real life. They made room for scholarly writing,

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Speaker 5: They made room for things like career advancements, They made

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Speaker 5: room for things like reading and research, and they had

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Speaker 5: to do it in creative ways. So I really focused

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Speaker 5: in on this population, which was around a little over

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Speaker 5: a third of the participants. One of the things I

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Speaker 5: wanted to do is really pay attention to the people

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Speaker 5: that weren't doing it, just to see, like, what are

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Speaker 5: some factors that maybe caused them not to have the time.

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Speaker 5: And I do know some things about that population as well,

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Speaker 5: But the way that the book is written is that

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Speaker 5: it says, this is what it took for these women

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Speaker 5: to do this. If they were considered highly productive and

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Speaker 5: completing this. These were the patterns they had. And one

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Speaker 5: of the things I did find is that the majority

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Speaker 5: of them did block out time to write, read research.

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Speaker 5: And this is not maybe something like new or groundbreaking,

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Speaker 5: but how they did it I thought was somewhat groundbreaking.

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Speaker 5: And so how they might do this is that they

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Speaker 5: had a very good time awareness and ability to plan.

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Speaker 5: So I could see evidence of planning all through the week,

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Speaker 5: but also troubleshooting. So in some of the diaries, I

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Speaker 5: would see things like this time that I had to

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Speaker 5: write got interrupted because my husband's car broke down and

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Speaker 5: I had to go drive them to the dealership or

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Speaker 5: something like that. That was an example that was in there,

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Speaker 5: and I would see that the person in the box,

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Speaker 5: maybe two days later would say something like this was

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Speaker 5: time I was supposed to spend grading papers, but I

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Speaker 5: decided that I'm just going to push back my grading

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Speaker 5: timeline so I can make sure I still get my

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Speaker 5: writing completed. And there was a lot of evidence of

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Speaker 5: just that awareness that if I give up my ten

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Speaker 5: hours I have to write per week, then I don't

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Speaker 5: get them back. So they're going to go to like

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Speaker 5: making kids lunches or I'm going to spend extra time

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Speaker 5: scrolling on Instagram. And for the record, there was a

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Speaker 5: very little messing around on phones or anything like that.

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Speaker 5: There really was not. There wasn't that because most of

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Speaker 5: these women were especially in that highly productive category. They

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Speaker 5: were really trying to make sure that they worked on

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Speaker 5: writing at least seven hours a week. And I chose

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Speaker 5: that because there are a couple of books on there

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Speaker 5: that say that faculty should write an hour a day

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Speaker 5: to be productive. So I kind of use that as

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Speaker 5: a baseline, like as any any academic mom actually hitting

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Speaker 5: that seven or above.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, and they are.

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Speaker 2: It turns out that by being creative and then by

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Speaker 2: defending the time right that they're making it a priority.

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Speaker 4: Yes.

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Speaker 5: And also the other major SEP finding was that when

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Speaker 5: they were getting it done, almost always it was child

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Speaker 5: free time. So one of the things that happens, I

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Speaker 5: think with a narrative with academic moms is that in

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Speaker 5: this this is something that I would say we're sort

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Speaker 5: of doing to each other, is that there is definitely

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Speaker 5: a population of academic bombs that are like, well, you

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Speaker 5: should be able to write in front of your kids

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Speaker 5: and let them see that you're doing that.

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Speaker 4: Kind of work and all that, and I agree with that.

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Speaker 5: I mean, I had school aged children, and I've been

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Speaker 5: writing in front of my kids the whole time I've

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Speaker 5: had the career that I've had, but that is not

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Speaker 5: my primary slot to get it done. So one of

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Speaker 5: the things that I really paid attention to is we

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Speaker 5: might think about it like A time is your best

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Speaker 5: time and B time is not. It's okay if you

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Speaker 5: can pull some stuff off, great. The highly productive group

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Speaker 5: always had some child free hours and they were protected

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Speaker 5: and they would do things, like I said, to make

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Speaker 5: sure that nobody interrupted it. So one other thing I

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Speaker 5: saw in there were some evidence of a lot of

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Speaker 5: these women writing early before they started classes, So as

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Speaker 5: soon as they got rid of children after a school

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Speaker 5: drop off, they wrote in those child free hours until

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Speaker 5: they had to be somewhere else. So if they taught immediately,

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Speaker 5: I sort of saw that the flip side of that

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Speaker 5: happened in the afternoon, so it would be as soon

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Speaker 5: as they finished a class and then they had like

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Speaker 5: a block of time. They might have some kind of

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Speaker 5: a reset strategy, which was something that I thought was

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Speaker 5: really great. They might take a quick walk across campus

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Speaker 5: or go get a cup of coffee or something just

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Speaker 5: to reset their brain from teaching mode to writing mode

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Speaker 5: and then they could get into that deep work.

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Speaker 1: Excellent. Well, here's another thing.

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Speaker 2: I'm the child free hours is important here and one

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Speaker 2: of the issues I've discovered. I've seen this on a

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Speaker 2: couple of academic timelogs. And you just mentioned that you

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Speaker 2: were picking your kids up at two thirty pm. And

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Speaker 2: I'm wondering why. And I've seen this a lot of timelogs, right,

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Speaker 2: that women who have flexible jobs, and in many cases academia,

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Speaker 2: is they can do certain things with childcare. Oh yes,

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Speaker 2: and I have, and so they do for a variety

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Speaker 2: of reasons. I'm sure it's like cultural narratives. It saves

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Speaker 2: money if you don't hire other people, right, Like there's

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Speaker 2: all these things.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, No, I would love to say something about this

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Speaker 5: because I will see this. So when I first had child,

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Speaker 5: I had my children late because I was a prof

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Speaker 5: so I did not have my first daughter until I

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Speaker 5: was thirty five years old. So I waited a very

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Speaker 5: long time to do it. And I really at that point,

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Speaker 5: I had just received tenure and I knew I was

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Speaker 5: waiting until I had it, So I was kind of

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Speaker 5: a little bit of a gamble there, but I did.

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Speaker 5: And one of the best pieces of advice I got

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Speaker 5: was from another academic mom. Because I knew I was

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Speaker 5: not going to be able, especially with like a baby,

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Speaker 5: I had to have childcare of some sort. So best

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Speaker 5: piece of advice I received from somebody that is doing

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Speaker 5: this career just said, get the best childcare that you

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Speaker 5: can afford.

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Speaker 4: You know, something that you know best you can do.

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Speaker 5: You'll probably have to make sacrifices somewhere else to afford it,

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Speaker 5: but she said, but then you know they're in good hands,

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Speaker 5: and then you can do your work and think about it.

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Speaker 5: And she also said it's okay to kind of think

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Speaker 5: about your child when you drive out of the daycare

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Speaker 5: parking lot, but she said, do something before you get

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Speaker 5: to work to kind of remind yourself that now I'm

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Speaker 5: going to work, the reason my child is in daycare

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Speaker 5: is because I'm doing this job. They are great And

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Speaker 5: one of the things that I did I found the

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Speaker 5: best daycare I could.

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Speaker 4: I loved it.

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Speaker 5: I loved it everything about it. Both my children were

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Speaker 5: in full time daycare the whole time they were of

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Speaker 5: that age before they went to school, and when they

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Speaker 5: went to school, they went to aftercare programs always, so

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Speaker 5: I always had till six o'clock. But what a lot

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Speaker 5: of people don't talk about, even if you can afford

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Speaker 5: daycare and childcare, is that kids age out of it

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Speaker 5: and you still have to get them somewhere. So, for example,

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Speaker 5: as soon as both of my children hit twelve years old,

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Speaker 5: I didn't have a driver, like somebody had to go

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Speaker 5: get them from school. My husband was a dean at

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Speaker 5: the time, still is a dean, so it's just one

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Speaker 5: of those things that it was not practical. I had

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Speaker 5: the flexible afternoon, and so I did try to think

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Speaker 5: about how not to I don't want to say, waste

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Speaker 5: those afternoon hours. And one of the best things that

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Speaker 5: I did once I got into that position where I

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Speaker 5: was out of a childcare option except maybe hiring a babysitter,

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Speaker 5: which didn't really solve necessarily my after school problem. But

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Speaker 5: I would pick up my children and then both of

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Speaker 5: my children were in the kind of in the mode

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Speaker 5: to do homework after school, and that's when I did

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Speaker 5: things like creating my papers, setting up my classes, like

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Speaker 5: things that I didn't necessarily need my highest power brain work,

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Speaker 5: so I always use my child free hours when I

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Speaker 5: wasn't teaching at work to write, but then all the

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Speaker 5: teaching support tasks, we'd have a snack together after school,

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Speaker 5: we'd work for a while, and at that point they

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Speaker 5: were at least twelve, and I have a fifteen year old.

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Speaker 5: We still are in that habit now, so it's at

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Speaker 5: least for now, I think it's a workable strategy.

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Speaker 2: It's about matching the right work with the right time

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Speaker 2: so that the child free hours when you're not teaching

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Speaker 2: are blocked out for writing and research, and then those

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Speaker 2: little tasks that everyone has to do get the time

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Speaker 2: when you have more distractions.

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Speaker 5: Right, definitely, And that's the same with things like just

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Speaker 5: a dentist appointment. I can't believe the home because everybody's

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Speaker 5: children are going to the orthodontis that requires a ton

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Speaker 5: of appointments and things like that. And so one thing

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Speaker 5: I did see in a lot of these time news

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Speaker 5: diaries is that there was some strategic time news there

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Speaker 5: where they would make sure if they had to have

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Speaker 5: an orthodonist appointment, they still in the afternoon so they

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Speaker 5: could stay with their writing in the morning. And that

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Speaker 5: was something that people would say deliberately. Any other kinds

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Speaker 5: of appointments, they would say, Yeah, I know the Orthodoxic

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Speaker 5: closes at three, but isn't it way better to take

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Speaker 5: the one thirty appointment than the one at nine thirty

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Speaker 5: when I have a big block of time in the morning,

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Speaker 5: because it's just difficult to reach that if you pull

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Speaker 5: a kid out of school and you'd better drive them

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Speaker 5: back and it's just extra commuting time that again is

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Speaker 5: eating those little time blocks.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so we want to be good about defending that time. Well,

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Speaker 2: We're gonna take one more quick ad break and I'll

441
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Speaker 2: be back with more from Christine Tully. Well, I am

442
00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:47,439
Speaker 2: back talking with Christine Tully, a professor of English and

443
00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:49,800
Speaker 2: Director of Writing at the University of Finley. She is

444
00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:52,960
Speaker 2: the author of a book, Productivity, Professionalism, and Parenting in

445
00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:57,560
Speaker 2: Academia that looks at time diaries of women in academia,

446
00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:01,560
Speaker 2: also women in all different stages, but looking particularly at

447
00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:05,200
Speaker 2: the ones who were making time for that speculative work

448
00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:08,560
Speaker 2: that is career advancing in academia. Now, you said something

449
00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:11,960
Speaker 2: earlier that you waited until you got tenure to have

450
00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:15,520
Speaker 2: your children. Now I'm curious you're thinking on this? Is

451
00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:17,720
Speaker 2: this what you would advise other women to do, or

452
00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:20,159
Speaker 2: do you think there's a way that you can still

453
00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:23,000
Speaker 2: move up while you are in the little kid years.

454
00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:25,840
Speaker 2: This is a personal choice, so I just want to

455
00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:28,879
Speaker 2: put that out there. I was comfortable with my choice

456
00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:32,399
Speaker 2: because I knew that with my partner and I we

457
00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:34,840
Speaker 2: had already talked about it and we were kind of

458
00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:38,920
Speaker 2: let's just see what happens. And also he was completing

459
00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:41,639
Speaker 2: a PhD just a year or two behind me, so

460
00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:43,080
Speaker 2: that was still in the mix. There was just a

461
00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:45,320
Speaker 2: lot of things and for a lot of reasons, that

462
00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:47,760
Speaker 2: was the reasons I chose it. But also because an

463
00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:51,640
Speaker 2: academic career does require quite a bit of conference travel,

464
00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:55,160
Speaker 2: I wasn't totally sure which academic position I was going

465
00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:57,560
Speaker 2: to be in. There's a lot of uncertainty and a

466
00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:00,639
Speaker 2: lot of moving around. So at least for me, I

467
00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:03,199
Speaker 2: just I received the PhD at thirty. It takes a

468
00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:05,159
Speaker 2: long time to get one of those. You're in school

469
00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:07,159
Speaker 2: for a very long time, so we wanted to have

470
00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:09,480
Speaker 2: a couple of child free years to just be able

471
00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:11,320
Speaker 2: to do some of the things that we wanted to do.

472
00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:15,159
Speaker 2: But I will say this, even after having children, it

473
00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:17,840
Speaker 2: is still possible to do those high profile things. So,

474
00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:21,480
Speaker 2: for example, I've had small children the rest of my

475
00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:25,000
Speaker 2: career because obviously there were younger when I had them.

476
00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:28,240
Speaker 5: So I'm very lucky that my spouse was able to

477
00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:30,880
Speaker 5: cover me for a week when I was at a conference.

478
00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:33,240
Speaker 4: I would do the same for him. We're both academics.

479
00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:36,199
Speaker 5: I spent a month in London, and I did a

480
00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:40,360
Speaker 5: lot of travel to London pretty regularly up until the pandemic,

481
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:42,439
Speaker 5: where I would be gone, say two three times a

482
00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:45,880
Speaker 5: year for like two weeks at a time, So even

483
00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:49,240
Speaker 5: with small children at home, it's definitely doable. It was

484
00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:51,199
Speaker 5: just one of those things where I'm lucky that my

485
00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:53,480
Speaker 5: partner was able to We kind of traded back and

486
00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:55,280
Speaker 5: forth and that was the way to do it. But

487
00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:59,240
Speaker 5: I do see younger moms able to navigate this career,

488
00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:02,720
Speaker 5: and partially this is because many academic disciplines have become

489
00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:05,879
Speaker 5: way more supportive of this. So I am in writing studies,

490
00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:09,359
Speaker 5: and it's always been okay for moms if they want

491
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:13,240
Speaker 5: to bring children to academic conferences. So for example, I

492
00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:16,480
Speaker 5: just got back from one and there is childcare there,

493
00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:18,360
Speaker 5: so you have to pay for it, but you can

494
00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:20,520
Speaker 5: do that. So, for example, if you want to bring

495
00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:22,320
Speaker 5: your children and then drop them off for a couple

496
00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:24,840
Speaker 5: hours while you go present a paper and hear some

497
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:28,120
Speaker 5: other papers, you could do that, And that is becoming

498
00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:30,280
Speaker 5: more of the norm, and many of the disciplines that

499
00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:32,920
Speaker 5: I see, I just for me personally, I would never

500
00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:35,000
Speaker 5: want to take any of my children into an academic

501
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:37,040
Speaker 5: conference because I just.

502
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:38,880
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, I'm gonna throw out here.

503
00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:40,199
Speaker 4: I wouldn't want to that.

504
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:42,919
Speaker 2: Leaving the kid with your partner or a grandparent or

505
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:44,879
Speaker 2: something might be a better way to I mean, I

506
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:46,640
Speaker 2: get if they're like little in nursing and you want

507
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:48,800
Speaker 2: to be able to go every three hours and feed them,

508
00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:52,119
Speaker 2: but like when they're not in that stage anymore, there's

509
00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:55,199
Speaker 2: no superpower points for having done this, Like they can

510
00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:58,639
Speaker 2: also enjoy the other adults in their life for a week.

511
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:02,879
Speaker 5: Oh definitely, sleeping in and having a hotel breakfast. Things

512
00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:04,720
Speaker 5: like that you never get to do. But the other

513
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:07,280
Speaker 5: thing that I noticed, just because I just finished a conference,

514
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:10,280
Speaker 5: I was gone for three days presenting, and one thing

515
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:12,560
Speaker 5: that still holds true, which I saw I don't know

516
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:16,000
Speaker 5: fifteen years ago, is right around that school time when

517
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:19,200
Speaker 5: school ends two thirty people come out of the conference

518
00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:21,280
Speaker 5: rooms and they're all standing in the hallway and it

519
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:24,320
Speaker 5: is a lot of academic moms on the phone checking

520
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:26,160
Speaker 5: to see what homwerk needs to be done. So there's

521
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:31,520
Speaker 5: still parenting tasks happening at these academic conferences. So we're

522
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:34,359
Speaker 5: still carrying the mental load. I definitely I don't have

523
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:35,560
Speaker 5: to do it as much as I used to have

524
00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:38,240
Speaker 5: a freshman in high school now, but yeah, I definitely

525
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:38,800
Speaker 5: had to do it.

526
00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:40,840
Speaker 2: But it tricks me that it's not even so much

527
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:43,240
Speaker 2: the conferences because again we're talking a couple times a year,

528
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:45,840
Speaker 2: like we were gone four weeks a year, like for

529
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:47,840
Speaker 2: a week long conference each time, which maybe even more

530
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:50,840
Speaker 2: than a lot of people would do. It's more the

531
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:53,600
Speaker 2: week to weeks stuff that you have to have the discipline,

532
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:56,159
Speaker 2: even when you have very little kids, of protecting that

533
00:24:56,280 --> 00:25:00,440
Speaker 2: time for writing. And that means that all the things

534
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:04,119
Speaker 2: that can go wrong, you decide that the scholarship and

535
00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:07,119
Speaker 2: the writing still has to happen. I mean, if you

536
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:09,440
Speaker 2: are a young mom who has kids and you are

537
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:11,359
Speaker 2: on the tenure track, that is just what you have

538
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:11,560
Speaker 2: to do.

539
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:12,160
Speaker 4: Definitely.

540
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:13,800
Speaker 5: And the other thing that I do a lot with

541
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,160
Speaker 5: the writing coaching that I do at Defend, Publish and Lead.

542
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:18,320
Speaker 5: One of the very first questions I will ask when

543
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:20,160
Speaker 5: people want to start working with us is I will

544
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,720
Speaker 5: ask them how many hours they are able to block

545
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:25,520
Speaker 5: out realistically, not saying oh, I can have all these

546
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:27,920
Speaker 5: hours and they take awayle their sleep hours or something

547
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:30,280
Speaker 5: crazy like that. But one thing the first thing I'll

548
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:33,960
Speaker 5: say is where's your backup slot? Because everybody's week is

549
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:36,960
Speaker 5: going to get interrupted, so I know for me, I

550
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,680
Speaker 5: always try to write between eight and twelve hours a week.

551
00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:41,639
Speaker 5: And the reason it's a range is that I know

552
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,199
Speaker 5: I have to at least clock in eight. If I

553
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:47,159
Speaker 5: get to twelve, I can quit. Usually it lands somewhere.

554
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:48,919
Speaker 5: And then that also say what your sort of your

555
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:51,800
Speaker 5: writing range that you want to do. And in addition

556
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:53,800
Speaker 5: to making sure that I get in a least eight,

557
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,280
Speaker 5: I always have a two hour backup slot somewhere. It

558
00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 5: might not be two hours together because that's not realistic

559
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,040
Speaker 5: in some weeks, but I might have say a random

560
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:03,800
Speaker 5: hour on Tuesday, a random hour on Friday. I purposely

561
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:06,119
Speaker 5: do not block anything in there. I block them out,

562
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:08,800
Speaker 5: and I'll sometimes have like just a name like backup

563
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:11,360
Speaker 5: in my in my calendar, so nobody else can put

564
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:13,440
Speaker 5: a meeting in there. But you know, it's one of

565
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:15,399
Speaker 5: those things. That's just the reality that I think a

566
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:17,399
Speaker 5: lot of people when they think about time, they don't think, well,

567
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:19,960
Speaker 5: I need a backup. And it's just because life does

568
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:23,600
Speaker 5: what life does. Cars don't start, kids get sick at school.

569
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:25,359
Speaker 5: There's just always something.

570
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 1: There's always something.

571
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:29,680
Speaker 2: And I think also the exercise of actually forcing people

572
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,159
Speaker 2: to find eight to twelve hours in their calendar, I

573
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:34,920
Speaker 2: bet a lot of people are, well, the time's there somewhere,

574
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:36,920
Speaker 2: or I have a little bit here and a little

575
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:40,399
Speaker 2: bit there. It's the act of actually finding eight hours

576
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:43,760
Speaker 2: in a schedule where there are other things happening is

577
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:46,639
Speaker 2: I'm sure eye opening for many people of just how

578
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:47,760
Speaker 2: much time that is.

579
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:50,240
Speaker 5: And sometimes they don't have it. So that's one of

580
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:52,119
Speaker 5: the things that we also work with. I mean, I

581
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:53,880
Speaker 5: do this in my own research a lot, but also

582
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:54,760
Speaker 5: with the clients that I have.

583
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:57,399
Speaker 4: Is just to say that's what I.

584
00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:00,440
Speaker 5: Do because writing is the thing I like best about

585
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 5: my job. It's always my number one priority. I'd rather

586
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:06,320
Speaker 5: give it more time because that's the thing I want

587
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:09,199
Speaker 5: to do. Some jobs don't require quite as much writing.

588
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:11,879
Speaker 5: Like it's fine if people put out, say an article

589
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:14,600
Speaker 5: a year and presented a conference a year, but it's

590
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:16,680
Speaker 5: kind of slow going because they don't have that much

591
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,880
Speaker 5: time in a week. They might have four hours, but

592
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:23,200
Speaker 5: there's definitely some productivity experts and there's other podcasts and

593
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:26,200
Speaker 5: stuff that say, oh, well, you just devote two hours

594
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:28,840
Speaker 5: a week and your writing's going to be amazing. Probably not.

595
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:32,119
Speaker 5: It probably won't, Like, so that's sometimes hard. News that

596
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:34,440
Speaker 5: I will say is that you want to put out

597
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:38,360
Speaker 5: some stuff, I think you probably need at least between

598
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,399
Speaker 5: four and six hours a week, because it's just the

599
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:44,160
Speaker 5: ramping into mental work. And this is true of anybody,

600
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 5: like in any other like high profile for Gilbert, you

601
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:49,439
Speaker 5: need to think about things and problems solve and like

602
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:52,080
Speaker 5: do that kind of mental work. It's difficult to do

603
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:54,959
Speaker 5: it on the fly, and especially difficult if you say, well,

604
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:57,240
Speaker 5: I have forty five minutes to think about this thing,

605
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,920
Speaker 5: Probably twenty of those forty five you're just sitting. They're wondering,

606
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 5: like what was I doing. So the other thing that

607
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 5: I do a lot of in my own work, but

608
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:06,640
Speaker 5: also what I'm recommending in a lot of the research

609
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:09,440
Speaker 5: that I'm doing is saying to people that you need

610
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,399
Speaker 5: to touch that writing four times a week, because if

611
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:15,000
Speaker 5: you're doing any less than that, every time, you're ramping

612
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:16,880
Speaker 5: up again. If you go Monday and then you don't

613
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:20,000
Speaker 5: come back to like Friday afternoon, a whole life has

614
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:22,520
Speaker 5: happened to you by the time you get to Friday afternoon,

615
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:25,359
Speaker 5: So you're giving up again even more time to just

616
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:28,199
Speaker 5: ramp back in. And it doesn't matter how good the

617
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 5: notes are that you took, because I'm just like, oh,

618
00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 5: just write a note and you'll know exactly what to do.

619
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:35,119
Speaker 5: You're thinking, could have changed, you could have taught a class,

620
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:37,239
Speaker 5: you could have talked to a student that changed your

621
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:41,360
Speaker 5: mind about something, you read something. So yeah, so it

622
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:43,720
Speaker 5: doesn't have to be every day. I think that's unrealistic

623
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:45,120
Speaker 5: for a lot of people.

624
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 2: But hey, three or four times a week, right, three

625
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 2: times a week is a habit, as we say around here.

626
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:51,160
Speaker 1: There you go well and have the backup slots.

627
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 2: We can see all these tranquility by Tuesday rules are

628
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:58,960
Speaker 2: coming into the productive of academia. I love it. But yeah,

629
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:01,600
Speaker 2: good thinking and good right does take time. And among

630
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 2: the things that I think you got from as long

631
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 2: as people who are careful about having enough time, and

632
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:09,760
Speaker 2: part of that is of course having enough childcare and

633
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:13,200
Speaker 2: not thinking that you are universally flexible. That a job

634
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 2: that is flexible, you still need to have some boundaries

635
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 2: about it.

636
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 5: I also got one last piece of advice that'd be

637
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:21,200
Speaker 5: really great, I think for other moms that are doing

638
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 5: this that I have sort of this weird. I don't

639
00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 5: want to call it wasted time, because no time is wasted,

640
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:28,600
Speaker 5: but just say what we talked about. The kid pick

641
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 5: up a lot, and for me, our kid pick up

642
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:32,720
Speaker 5: is kind of a mess at our high school and

643
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,760
Speaker 5: it really requires me to leave work. I live very close.

644
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 5: I'm like within ten minutes of the school, so I'm

645
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 5: very close, but it really requires me to leave about

646
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:44,120
Speaker 5: forty minutes early. The way it's configured, the way it's

647
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:47,480
Speaker 5: kind of a mess, the after school practice, there's just

648
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 5: a lot of things I've got to get there early

649
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:51,520
Speaker 5: to have like something that's not going to mess up

650
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 5: the rest of my day. And I actually learned something

651
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 5: off these time these diaries, because I was looking at

652
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 5: a couple of them, and one of the things I

653
00:29:57,880 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 5: saw is that a lot of these people they do

654
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 5: get there early, they get their spot, they shut their

655
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 5: car off, and then they do something. So some people

656
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:07,320
Speaker 5: are using that time for like a hobby, or they're

657
00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 5: catching up with family or elderly parents or something. But

658
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:12,520
Speaker 5: what I ended up sticking in that slot once I

659
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:16,080
Speaker 5: started looking at these academic diaries is I'm actually using

660
00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 5: that time now for academic reading to set me up

661
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 5: for new writing projects. So I've seen some reading on

662
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 5: like a subject I know I want to do an

663
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 5: article on, say next year, in two years, I'm already

664
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 5: doing that reading now because it's sort of the perfect spot.

665
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 4: I could just shut my car.

666
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:36,320
Speaker 5: Off, and obviously I'm not so into it that I

667
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:39,040
Speaker 5: can't inch my car up in the line if somebody moves,

668
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 5: but getting there early enough, I just kind of sit

669
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:44,160
Speaker 5: there and it gives me about twenty two minutes a

670
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:47,080
Speaker 5: day that I'm knocking out a future projects. So for me,

671
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:48,960
Speaker 5: I would not have thought of that. A lot of

672
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 5: times I just would sit there and sort of stew

673
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 5: the Ugh, this is such a waste of time, you know,

674
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:55,480
Speaker 5: I might have like texted some people on my phone

675
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 5: or something. But now I'm really happy I'm using it

676
00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:00,960
Speaker 5: for that, and to me, some times, I'm even more

677
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:03,360
Speaker 5: like eager to leave work, so I'm like, ooh, I

678
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 5: could actually get twenty five minutes on this thing I

679
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:08,000
Speaker 5: want to read, So yeah, excellent.

680
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 2: And just so people know, if you don't have to

681
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 2: be the person picking up the kids every day, you

682
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:15,840
Speaker 2: do not have to, right, So yes.

683
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:18,920
Speaker 5: For temporarily, with my fifteen year old about ready to drive,

684
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:22,040
Speaker 5: I'm almost out of that time, almost yeah, And at

685
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 5: this point then I would resume more of what I

686
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:27,479
Speaker 5: would consider a more normal academic day, where you know,

687
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 5: maybe I don't come home to like four thirty.

688
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:30,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

689
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 2: Well, and I would say for all listeners here, my

690
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:35,080
Speaker 2: kids take the bus. Yes, yes, it's started the bus

691
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 2: for a while. Yes, yeah, we haven't done it since COVID,

692
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:40,560
Speaker 2: but yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's an option. I mean,

693
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 2: not everybody, it is an option. Not everybody has to

694
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:43,760
Speaker 2: do it that way.

695
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:47,360
Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, exactly. Well the bus could be someone's

696
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 1: time management friend. All right.

697
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:51,840
Speaker 2: Well, so Christine, we always end each episode with a

698
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:55,480
Speaker 2: love of the week, something that we are enjoying. I

699
00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 2: will say, after I'm recording this, I'm actually headed to

700
00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:01,960
Speaker 2: the airport. And there is now a great website for

701
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:06,720
Speaker 2: the Philadelphia Airport. That lets you know the TSA times

702
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:10,720
Speaker 2: for each gate. It's amazing, which information transparency is just

703
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 2: a wonderful thing for managing time because if you don't know,

704
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:14,960
Speaker 2: like is it going to be two minutes? Is it

705
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 2: going to be twenty minutes? Like this applies different times

706
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:18,200
Speaker 2: of like getting.

707
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:19,880
Speaker 4: To the airport right definitely.

708
00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:25,280
Speaker 2: So knowing that the TSA pre check at Gate A

709
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 2: is only three minutes makes me very happy. I mean

710
00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 2: it's amazing, Like, yeah, how about you, what are you

711
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 2: loving this week?

712
00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 5: I was just talking to somebody about this. I like

713
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:38,959
Speaker 5: this free online notebook. It's called pen Zu. It's spelled

714
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:42,600
Speaker 5: pe n zu. It's just an online notebook. It looks

715
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 5: like an old school composition notebook. I think there's like

716
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 5: paid bells and whistles if you want to do anything

717
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 5: like that. But why I like it. It looks just

718
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 5: like a notebook, and it's very clean to record things.

719
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:55,920
Speaker 5: And one of the ways that I'm trying to remember,

720
00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 5: like what are some cool ideas I have for the future,

721
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 5: or how do I want to think through through rewording

722
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 5: that paragraph. I use that for a lot of just

723
00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:06,000
Speaker 5: a spot to hold things. I can get it off

724
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 5: my phone. I can get it online, but it doesn't

725
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:11,920
Speaker 5: have all the extras because it's not a big learning

726
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 5: curve to learn anything. I see a picture that maybe

727
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 5: I want to use in an article, I just drop

728
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 5: it in a little note and I can label it.

729
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:22,960
Speaker 5: It's tagged, it's searchable, And sometimes I think just kind

730
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:26,560
Speaker 5: of a very simple to use technology tool that does

731
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 5: not add a lot of extra time to my life

732
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 5: to like manage this tool. I just leave the tab

733
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 5: open all the time. Anything I want to do, I

734
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:34,240
Speaker 5: read a quick note in there, drop it in there.

735
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:36,200
Speaker 5: And for me it's a little bit better than my

736
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 5: bad habit of writing everything on post. It's because half

737
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 5: the time I can't either read my handwriting or I

738
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:44,040
Speaker 5: don't know what that was. For Penza is just easier.

739
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:47,200
Speaker 5: And I've actually found a really great way to remember

740
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:49,600
Speaker 5: like things about projects. So that's another thing when we

741
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:52,800
Speaker 5: think about time or track time, it's really great to see, well,

742
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:55,040
Speaker 5: how did I do that last time? Like I've been

743
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 5: successful before, how did I do that? I can go

744
00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:58,240
Speaker 5: back and look at like a lot of these Penzu

745
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 5: notes and say, oh, okay, well here's thing that I

746
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 5: did with this other project that I could do with

747
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 5: this new one.

748
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:05,320
Speaker 1: So yeah, IX love the week Penzu p E n

749
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 1: zu p E m zu.

750
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:08,719
Speaker 4: It is totally free.

751
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 5: If you want to buy all the extra things like

752
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 5: have a fancy cover on your notebook and all that,

753
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 5: you can do that. I have not ben anything, and

754
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:18,320
Speaker 5: I've had it probably for six or maybe eight years,

755
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:20,239
Speaker 5: a long time, and I've never paid for it.

756
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 4: So it's a great app.

757
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:24,440
Speaker 1: Excellent, excellent, Oh Christine, Where can people find you?

758
00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 5: If they want to check me out, they can find

759
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 5: me at the University of Finley. They can look me

760
00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 5: up there, but also they can look at Defend, Publish

761
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:33,560
Speaker 5: and Lead and they can find us at that. We

762
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:35,600
Speaker 5: also have a weekly podcast so they can listen to

763
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:38,000
Speaker 5: writing tips if you're interested in writing tips there. It's

764
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 5: also called Defend, Publish and Lead.

765
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:42,799
Speaker 1: Awesome, Oh Christine, thank you so much for joining us.

766
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:43,640
Speaker 4: You're welcome.

767
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:45,400
Speaker 1: Well we are back.

768
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:49,279
Speaker 3: That was a great interview. And our question comes from

769
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 3: a listener interested in how you handle sick kids, especially

770
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:56,799
Speaker 3: if there are multiple kids and kids tend to pass

771
00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:59,040
Speaker 3: their illnesses back and forth. And this person will say

772
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:03,279
Speaker 3: struggle specifically handling canceling plans and how many plans to

773
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:05,920
Speaker 3: cancel and how far in advance to cancel the plans,

774
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:09,840
Speaker 3: So she is interested on how we handle that. Laura,

775
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:10,479
Speaker 3: what would you say?

776
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:11,600
Speaker 1: Yeah?

777
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:14,920
Speaker 2: I mean I think that obviously, if you need to

778
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 2: cancel something because somebody is contagious or something, fever, vomiting, whatever,

779
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 2: that's probably something you just you cancel the day of

780
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:26,000
Speaker 2: and then maybe give somebody a heads up for.

781
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:28,600
Speaker 1: The next day if you might need to do something.

782
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:31,719
Speaker 2: We're talking kid plans here, right, So if you had

783
00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 2: a playdate scheduled on a Saturday and your kid wakes

784
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:36,160
Speaker 2: up with a big fever, you'd probably call the other

785
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:37,920
Speaker 2: parents say that we're not going to be able to

786
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 2: make it. Let's say you have something for Sunday evenings.

787
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 2: Should you cancel that too?

788
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:43,560
Speaker 1: I don't know.

789
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:46,400
Speaker 2: I think you might send a tax saying hey, just

790
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:49,600
Speaker 2: so you know, we're playing it by ear here. Certain things,

791
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 2: probably the kid, they don't want vomiting kids around them,

792
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:56,160
Speaker 2: or kids who have been vomiting recently. So obviously that

793
00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:58,959
Speaker 2: if you would definitely cancel within twenty four to forty

794
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 2: eight hours, other than are often feeling much better after that.

795
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:04,959
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you have to think through all the possibilities,

796
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:07,120
Speaker 3: but try not to like get married to any of them,

797
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:10,160
Speaker 3: because you just never know. She even mentioned that, like, yeah,

798
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:12,279
Speaker 3: sometimes one kid will get sick and then they'll all

799
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:14,400
Speaker 3: get sick in a cascade, and other times it's just

800
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:17,359
Speaker 3: the one. I have started tracking this and am am

801
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:20,239
Speaker 3: puzzled by why some illnesses will hit like three out

802
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:22,439
Speaker 3: of five of us or just one kid, or maybe

803
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:24,839
Speaker 3: I'll be the only one not to get something. It's like, hmm,

804
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:27,120
Speaker 3: very interesting, but it's hard to predict.

805
00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:29,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, Now that said, if we're talking about you do

806
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:34,800
Speaker 2: cancel work related plans like this is a different sort

807
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:39,360
Speaker 2: of question. And while obviously, if your child is really

808
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:43,520
Speaker 2: really sick and needs you, that is one thing, and

809
00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:46,200
Speaker 2: you would cancel that day and sort of play it

810
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:47,759
Speaker 2: by ear for time after that.

811
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 1: But if we're talking sort of normal.

812
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:52,680
Speaker 2: Childhood illness, like the kid wakes up with a fever

813
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:54,480
Speaker 2: and can't go to daycare that day because I need

814
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 2: to be twenty four hours fever free, you probably want

815
00:36:57,680 --> 00:36:59,719
Speaker 2: to have a system in place where you don't have

816
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:01,080
Speaker 2: to that much.

817
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 1: Work like that.

818
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:04,719
Speaker 2: You could if the kid needed to be seen somewhere,

819
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:07,640
Speaker 2: maybe get them in that morning of urgent care. Get

820
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:09,879
Speaker 2: them on antibiotics, and then have somebody who could come

821
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:12,799
Speaker 2: take care of them in the afternoon that you could

822
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:17,759
Speaker 2: go to work, or then hopefully the next day that

823
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:20,520
Speaker 2: person could work, or later in the day they could

824
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:22,480
Speaker 2: go to daycare if their fever was gone for twenty

825
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:23,080
Speaker 2: four hours.

826
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:23,959
Speaker 1: Or however that might work.

827
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:26,480
Speaker 2: But you generally don't want to be in a situation

828
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:29,239
Speaker 2: where you are uncertainly going to be missing I mean

829
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:31,960
Speaker 2: you're going to be missing uncertain amount of work, like

830
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:34,520
Speaker 2: what could be days and days and days as illnesses

831
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:37,680
Speaker 2: cycle through your family. Which again we're talking normal illnesses.

832
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 2: If somebody is like very very ill, that's a different manner.

833
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:40,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think.

834
00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:43,000
Speaker 3: I mean the mindset is you have to assume this

835
00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:45,400
Speaker 3: is going to happen and have already kind of thought

836
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:48,239
Speaker 3: through like what your backups might be like. And then

837
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:50,319
Speaker 3: that can also involve trading off with a partner as well,

838
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:50,720
Speaker 3: of course.

839
00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:53,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I know one reason both of us wound

840
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:56,800
Speaker 2: up with nanny's as our main form of childcare instead

841
00:37:56,800 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 2: of daycare is because there was more ability to again

842
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:03,480
Speaker 2: take care of a kid with a low grade fever

843
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:07,520
Speaker 2: or a kid who was sick on Sunday throwing up,

844
00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 2: but like Monday, they're feeling better, And then obviously you

845
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:14,399
Speaker 2: might not have sent them to daycare, but nanny could

846
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:17,840
Speaker 2: stay with them because she's probably following good hygiene practices

847
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:20,080
Speaker 2: and washing her hands and all that are maybe masking

848
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:20,560
Speaker 2: or whatever.

849
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 1: But it just is more reliable in many cases, and.

850
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:30,800
Speaker 2: There's only so much work you can miss suddenly without

851
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:32,479
Speaker 2: winding up.

852
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:33,080
Speaker 1: With an issue.

853
00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:35,880
Speaker 3: Yes, especially since sounds like there's a bunch, not just

854
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:37,719
Speaker 3: one kid, not just one kid, a lot of kids.

855
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:41,480
Speaker 2: So one of our top advice for people who are

856
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:44,080
Speaker 2: in the young kid years and who do want to

857
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:46,120
Speaker 2: continue with their careers is to make sure that the

858
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:50,480
Speaker 2: near constant childhood illnesses are being treated as.

859
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:51,360
Speaker 1: A known unknown.

860
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 2: You know what will happen, and you know what will

861
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:55,680
Speaker 2: happen for like, could be like six weeks over the

862
00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:58,520
Speaker 2: course of the winter. So what is your plan for

863
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:00,879
Speaker 2: you not missing six weeks of work?

864
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:02,520
Speaker 3: And it might not be I get it because for

865
00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 3: everybody who listened to this, well Mike, it only was

866
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:06,279
Speaker 3: sick once a year when they were a little But

867
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:09,080
Speaker 3: on average it is pretty normal to get a viral

868
00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:12,240
Speaker 3: illness like every other month in that age range, which

869
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:13,080
Speaker 3: is a lot of time.

870
00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 1: It's a lot of time. Yeah, so that's something to

871
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:16,919
Speaker 1: think about.

872
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:18,400
Speaker 2: If you are using daycare, which we I mean, we

873
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:20,799
Speaker 2: love daycare, it's absolutely wonderful. You need a very good

874
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:25,479
Speaker 2: backup system. Or if your partner can split the days

875
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:27,800
Speaker 2: with you, that's great, but still both of you missing

876
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:30,239
Speaker 2: three weeks of work could be a lot, so you

877
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:33,239
Speaker 2: might want to have another backup system in place as well.

878
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:36,880
Speaker 3: Awesome. Well, hopefully that helps, and hopefully this will just

879
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Speaker 3: be theoretical because you have a very healthy next few months.

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Speaker 4: Exactly.

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Speaker 1: Well, this has been best of both worlds.

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Speaker 2: I've been interviewing Christine Tully of the University of Finley,

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Speaker 2: who is a professor there who's also studied academic time use.

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Speaker 2: Lots of fascinating conclusions about how people make time for

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Speaker 2: the writing and research that is a big part of

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Speaker 2: that jop. We will be back next week with more

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Speaker 2: on making work and life fit together.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the

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Speaker 3: shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram,

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Speaker 3: and you can.

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Speaker 2: Find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This has

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Speaker 2: been the best of both Worlds Podcasts. Please join us

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Speaker 2: next time for more on making work and life work together.