1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:27,680 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to 2 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:30,840 Speaker 1: the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much 3 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 1: for tuning in. Let's give it up for our super producer, 4 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 1: mister Max Williams. Mister Max White Suit Williams. 5 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:40,480 Speaker 2: Oh my god, we gotta just tell the to find 6 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:41,080 Speaker 2: folks at home. 7 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 3: I'm remote. You guys are in the same building. 8 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:49,159 Speaker 2: I feel sense of fun and that's well exactly, that's right, 9 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:51,159 Speaker 2: that's true. But you guys are in the same physical, 10 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:53,559 Speaker 2: larger space. And you said you got to see this 11 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 2: thing that Max has got going on. I'm like, is 12 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:57,040 Speaker 2: it going to be underwhelming? Because it was underwhelming, I'm 13 00:00:57,040 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 2: going to be mad. And boy howdy, he blasted into 14 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 2: the room, just blazing in the suit, this white, shining suit. 15 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:06,280 Speaker 2: I had to squint, you know, on my computer screen, 16 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:07,520 Speaker 2: almost overtook. 17 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 3: My whole field of vision. It's a real thing to behold. 18 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:10,160 Speaker 4: Man. 19 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:12,920 Speaker 3: You've been talking about it on the podcast for months now. 20 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:16,119 Speaker 4: Well, see, I've been waiting to wear it, and there 21 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:18,479 Speaker 4: was some reason, like like last time I recorded, I 22 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:20,400 Speaker 4: was like I had to go do some asswords. I'm like, okay, 23 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:23,200 Speaker 4: wearing a full white suit is not a good idea 24 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:27,399 Speaker 4: right now. But I'm also wearing a green tie and 25 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:30,480 Speaker 4: a red shirt. It is a holiday company going on 26 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 4: right now, that bed. 27 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:36,960 Speaker 1: And being red, green, color blind as I am. I 28 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 1: didn't know that until you told me. Oh wow, it's 29 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 1: a day of surprises for us. I'll wear my white 30 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 1: suit next time. Max and Solidaria, I'm been bowling. You're 31 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:47,680 Speaker 1: Nold Brown, and we have a very we have a 32 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 1: very special week ahead. I can't remember if I mentioned 33 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:54,160 Speaker 1: it on air before, but I was very, very lucky 34 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 1: to meet a literary hero of mine quite recently on 35 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:02,160 Speaker 1: the on the podcas cast the Puzzler. 36 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 2: And to be confused with the quistor not to be 37 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:09,840 Speaker 2: confused with the Quist equally diabolical, but more gently diabolical. 38 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 1: Yes, we are expanding the Ridiculous universe today, because, folks, 39 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:21,079 Speaker 1: we are over the moon to welcome a special guest 40 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 1: this week, the journalist, author lecturer, a prolific writer of 41 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:30,080 Speaker 1: amazing books like The Know It All and The Year 42 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 1: of Living Biblically, a personal favorite of my Ridiculous historians, 43 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:36,520 Speaker 1: Please join us at welcoming mister A. J. 44 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 5: Jacobs, Well, thank are you kidding? This as an honor 45 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 5: you are my podcast heroes, so right back at and 46 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:49,080 Speaker 5: we loved having Ben on the show, and Noel, we 47 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:51,360 Speaker 5: are going to recruit you. You are going to be 48 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 5: in the hot seat soon. 49 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 3: I'm so here for it. 50 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:54,120 Speaker 1: A Jay. 51 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:57,080 Speaker 2: I was aware of you obviously from various appearances on 52 00:02:57,200 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 2: NPR and you know, talking about your incredible work and research. 53 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 2: But you were one of the first guests of another 54 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 2: podcast that I worked on for a while, movie Crush. 55 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:07,359 Speaker 5: I love that movie. 56 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:10,800 Speaker 2: I wasn't on those episodes. I was on the mini 57 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:13,040 Speaker 2: Crush episodes where Chuck and I would just kind of 58 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:15,240 Speaker 2: post mortem some of the interviews. But you were one 59 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 2: of the very first guests of that show, and I 60 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:19,520 Speaker 2: engineered that. I don't think we actually spoke, but that was. 61 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:20,359 Speaker 2: What was your movie? 62 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 3: Again, by the. 63 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 5: Way, it was a Clockwork Orange? 64 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:23,400 Speaker 3: Oh it was. 65 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 5: I wanted to do A Groundhog's Day because that, but 66 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 5: someone else had taken it and a Clockwork Orange. I 67 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 5: had mixed feelings about it because I loved it when 68 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 5: I was a high schooler and now I look at 69 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 5: it as a father, an old man, and I was like, 70 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 5: you know what. 71 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:41,880 Speaker 1: Though, it would have been pretty pretty meta and epic 72 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 1: if you went on and did groundhog Day, and people 73 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:49,119 Speaker 1: just came on, like on every six months someone did 74 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 1: groundhog Day. Idea, it's just fun. 75 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 2: I think I maybe was just having like a brain fart, 76 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 2: but I heard you as saying a groundhog's Day as 77 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 2: though it were there's a clockwork orange and a groundhog 78 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 2: dog's day. What if we did a mashup of those two, 79 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 2: what would that be like, Charlie Kaufman, ease your heart outs. 80 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 1: I like that, ye clockwork groundhog. You know that's that's 81 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:11,120 Speaker 1: very good. We'll keep dropping it. 82 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 2: But equally excited to be here, can't wait to be 83 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 2: in said hot seat. And I think today, you know, 84 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 2: we talked about what we might discuss, and you just 85 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:23,599 Speaker 2: had so many possibilities that you sent our way, and 86 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 2: we ended up going with sort of a general topic 87 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 2: area that actually ends up being quite apropos some of 88 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 2: the recent episodes that we've done. 89 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, let's do it this way, let's do it this aging. 90 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 1: Uh So, tell us about the puzzler because we've been 91 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 1: throwing this around, right, we've been throwing the phrase around. 92 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 1: We talked about the podcast, but what is the puzzler 93 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 1: and how does it inform what you're going to teach 94 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:48,279 Speaker 1: Nola and Max and I today. 95 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:52,160 Speaker 5: Well, the Puzzler right now is an iHeart podcast and 96 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:55,719 Speaker 5: it's a daily it's short. We have a celebrity guest 97 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:58,120 Speaker 5: on and we do a fun little word game with 98 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 5: them and the audience can listen along. And Ben was 99 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 5: a recent guest, and we always try to tailor it, 100 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 5: so we had a ridiculous history theme. Puzzle was one 101 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:13,280 Speaker 5: for Ben, so it was sort of ridiculously misunderstood history. 102 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:16,159 Speaker 5: So if it was a guy who had heard of 103 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:20,200 Speaker 5: historical events but didn't hadn't read them, hadn't listened to 104 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:23,120 Speaker 5: this podcast, so he would say, like this event, I 105 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:26,080 Speaker 5: think it's about a croissant array and a glass of 106 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 5: red wine going around in a circle, and oh, thank you. 107 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 5: And then the answer, which which Ben got, was oh, 108 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:38,320 Speaker 5: that's the French Revolution, So it's always a yes. He 109 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 5: did very well. Ben was a star. 110 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 1: Say that because we're here, well. 111 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:46,159 Speaker 5: We give no money, so I have to be nice 112 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:48,600 Speaker 5: with the praise. 113 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 3: Better than money. You know. 114 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 2: It's funny that, like in this age of wordle and 115 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 2: all the wordle adjacent things that honestly there's so many 116 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 2: of them now that make my head spin. Ben and 117 00:05:56,640 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 2: I recently discussed this really anachronistic one that guessing like 118 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:04,280 Speaker 2: gross domestic product of various countries. 119 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 3: What's that one called exportal or. 120 00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:11,839 Speaker 1: It's cradle and it's from the OECD, and it's uh. 121 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:14,719 Speaker 1: I think there's something tricky about tradele. This is what 122 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:17,359 Speaker 1: makes it an interesting puzzle. There's something tricky about it 123 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 1: because all of the like you said, Noli, you have 124 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 1: to guess the exports, guess a country based on exports 125 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 1: and imports. However, what the OECD classifies as a country 126 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 1: is kind of like the aspirational list of what investors 127 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:37,279 Speaker 1: wish was a country, like the British version islands not 128 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:40,080 Speaker 1: a country. Sorry guys, all this to say. 129 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:42,960 Speaker 2: Ben, that's one that I immediately when it was you know, 130 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:44,839 Speaker 2: revealed to me or shown to me, I was like, 131 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:47,040 Speaker 2: this is so not my wheelhouse and I wouldn't even 132 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:47,679 Speaker 2: know where to start. 133 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 3: But Ben will be at this, and sure enough you were. 134 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:53,480 Speaker 3: So I just have to ask a j when I'm 135 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:56,479 Speaker 3: on the show. Please, no export based the puzzles. 136 00:06:56,200 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 1: Now, whole plan. We all know so much about music. 137 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 2: I do know a lot on music, but that's good, 138 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:05,720 Speaker 2: not so much about countries and their various imports and exports. 139 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:08,279 Speaker 2: So again, you know, in this era where puzzles have 140 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 2: really become this you know craze in and of themselves. 141 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 3: I mean it's. 142 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 2: Like a very old craze, but it's sort of back 143 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:17,480 Speaker 2: in vogue with all these New York Times apps in 144 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:20,320 Speaker 2: such you know, ways of passing the time on the train. 145 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 2: We thought it might be fun, or really, you thought 146 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 2: it might be fun to talk about some of the 147 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 2: history of puzzle crazes, you know, throughout throughout time exactly. 148 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 5: And I love, I love these puzzle crazes because there 149 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 5: have been wordles from the eighteenth century, nineteenth century and uh, 150 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 5: and it's really it is like a tulip mania. People 151 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:45,080 Speaker 5: just get obsessed. And I also love the element where 152 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 5: there's always a moral panic. There's always preachers saying, oh 153 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 5: the people are parents are ignoring their kids and doing 154 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:56,400 Speaker 5: jigsaw puzzles and. 155 00:07:56,800 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 1: It's ruined homes. 156 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 5: Seriously, The New York Times covered crossword puzzles like the 157 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 5: crack epidemic in the eighties. 158 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:08,760 Speaker 1: Are you serious? 159 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 5: Yeah, they were like, this is a you know, it's 160 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 5: causing prison riots, parents, our father husbands are murdering their 161 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 5: wives over crossword arguments. There was Olympic stars were not 162 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 5: training because they were distracted by crossword puzzles. This was 163 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 5: in the twenties and thirties, and yeah, it was just 164 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 5: hilarious to read. 165 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:33,720 Speaker 3: New York Times did eventually come around to crossword puzzles. 166 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:38,319 Speaker 5: Exactly that they did. Yes, they did decide to buckle 167 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:42,200 Speaker 5: to and actually, maybe that's a good segue, let's start. 168 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:44,200 Speaker 5: That was one of the crazes I wanted to talk 169 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:47,720 Speaker 5: about was the crossword craze of the teens and twenties. 170 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:58,480 Speaker 5: The first crossword appeared in nineteen thirteen in the New 171 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 5: York World newspaper. Wait, the first one in the world, 172 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 5: the first one ever? Wow, I know I thought it 173 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 5: would be older, but I thought it would be older too. 174 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 5: That's crazy, Uh, And it was. It was actually called 175 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:12,960 Speaker 5: word cross at the time, and then they changed it 176 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:17,480 Speaker 5: later because of a typographical error. So sometimes mistakes are good. 177 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 5: I always tell my kids and I will say it 178 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:24,880 Speaker 5: was the first, but it was. It also kind of sucked. 179 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 5: It was not a good crossword puzzle. It was the 180 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 5: the clues were all really obscure, Like the fiber of 181 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:39,959 Speaker 5: the Gomuti palm was ten down and he got it. 182 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:44,240 Speaker 3: Oh no, no, I couldn't possibly. Yeah, I wouldn't even 183 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:45,079 Speaker 3: hazard to guess. Ben. 184 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:48,120 Speaker 6: How about you, Well, I'll give you that the way 185 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 6: they do it, the way they would do it now, 186 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 6: is much better, which is Homer Simpson outburst three dollars. 187 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 1: Oh there it is. 188 00:09:57,320 --> 00:09:59,440 Speaker 2: I was just gonna ask, and not to interrupt, you know, 189 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:04,439 Speaker 2: the did the original word crosses or crosswords or whatever 190 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:08,120 Speaker 2: come from the kind of rudimentary, sort of across stick 191 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 2: poem form at all? 192 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:11,640 Speaker 3: Was there any connection to that? 193 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 5: Yes, there were sort of these proto crosswords, so it 194 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:18,080 Speaker 5: didn't come out of nowhere. The inventor is this guy, 195 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:23,560 Speaker 5: a British bloke named Arthur Wynn, and he says that 196 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:27,560 Speaker 5: he was inspired by things like the magic squares, which 197 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:29,120 Speaker 5: I don't know if you've ever seen, but they have 198 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:32,960 Speaker 5: numbers or letters that you've read crosswords and down it 199 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 5: has the same words crossed down. So he had some inspiration. 200 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 5: But this was considered the first actual one, and despite 201 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 5: it kind of being lame, it really became this mania, 202 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:49,720 Speaker 5: and every newspaper started printing him except for the New 203 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 5: York Times, as we said, and there was a Broadway 204 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:56,920 Speaker 5: musical about crosswords. There was a hit song, Well, I 205 00:10:56,960 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 5: know you're a musician, so I'm sure you know this 206 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 5: great work crossword Mama. You puzzle me, but Papa's gonna 207 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 5: figure you out. 208 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 1: I love it. 209 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:06,960 Speaker 3: Wow, got there, beautiful song. 210 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 2: I'm wondering though, because New York Times obviously got a 211 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 2: reputation as being like one of the more difficult cross wars. 212 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:15,360 Speaker 2: Is kind of a more illustrious crossward, like if you 213 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:17,320 Speaker 2: do it in pen then you're a real, you know, 214 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:20,280 Speaker 2: a smart person. Do you think they held out because 215 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:22,559 Speaker 2: they thought it was beneath them, and then they finally decide, 216 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:24,319 Speaker 2: you know what, if we're gonna get into this crossword game, 217 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 2: we're gonna be the best on the block. 218 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 1: They looked askance at it right like in the beginning, 219 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:33,120 Speaker 1: because they were kind of the high falluting sort of 220 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 1: paper of note for the fair metropolis, and so maybe 221 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 1: crosswords for a time were considered sort of like tabloid 222 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 1: esque or sort of lower class. 223 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:49,400 Speaker 5: Absolutely, that's exactly what they were. It was frivolous, It 224 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:52,840 Speaker 5: was nothing. They they didn't print comics and they still don't. Uh. 225 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:56,880 Speaker 5: New York World was sort of this tabloid the newspaper. Uh, 226 00:11:56,920 --> 00:11:59,559 Speaker 5: the phrase yellow journalism comes from it because they had 227 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:04,160 Speaker 5: a common strip called the Yellow Kid. And uh, but yes, 228 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 5: they they finally buckled. It took a world war for 229 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:10,839 Speaker 5: the New York Times to buckle. It was World War 230 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:16,760 Speaker 5: two a week and a half after Pearl Harbor. There's 231 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 5: an internal memo that says, you know what, people need 232 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:23,680 Speaker 5: a little distraction. Uh there might be blackouts, was was 233 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:26,240 Speaker 5: what he said. So this, so that is when they 234 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:29,440 Speaker 5: and like you, you said no, They said, you know what, 235 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:31,559 Speaker 5: We're just gonna be the best at what we do. 236 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 5: And so they did and they and they hired this 237 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 5: woman who was who was really good at she's sort 238 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:41,840 Speaker 5: of reformed. She's a legend in the crossword community, Margaret 239 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 5: Petheridge ferrr and she h a great name. And she 240 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 5: made them symmetrical. She got rid of the mistakes the 241 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:54,000 Speaker 5: two letter words. So it did become the market leader 242 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 5: and it still is. 243 00:12:55,679 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 2: And then yeah, there's a there's a craft to it. 244 00:12:57,400 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 2: There's a flow and like a sort of an esthetic 245 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:02,320 Speaker 2: to a good crossword that is in and of itself, 246 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 2: something to kind of enjoy. 247 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 3: Right. 248 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 1: That leads to Yeah, that leads to one of my 249 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 1: questions was is this person, the one who sort of 250 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:15,840 Speaker 1: codified the coded language of crossword clues, like everybody knows 251 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 1: these certain tricks. If something is abbreviated in the clue, 252 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 1: then the answer is going to be abbreviated. 253 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 5: You know what I'm talking about. Yeah, no, I she 254 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 5: did a little of that. What's interesting, though, is they 255 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 5: those first crossword puzzles were very trivia oriented and so 256 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 5: they weren't clever. Like to me, a good crossword puzzle 257 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:43,080 Speaker 5: now is it's all about wordplay and anagrams. That's kind 258 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:46,720 Speaker 5: I like. And Will Schwartz introduced he's the current New 259 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:49,439 Speaker 5: York Times gedder, and he introduced a lot of that. 260 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:51,840 Speaker 5: You have his favorite clue if you ask him, of 261 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:54,600 Speaker 5: all time. It seems good to me. I wouldn't say 262 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:58,600 Speaker 5: it's my favorite, but it was. It turns into another story, 263 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:01,160 Speaker 5: was the clue. And it's a two word phrase, a 264 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:07,680 Speaker 5: long phrase, spiral staircase. So it turns pretty good. Yeah, 265 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 5: there's some levels there, there are levels. Yeah, two levels. 266 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 5: Nicely done, thank you sir. But yes, so that that 267 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 5: only came out later. And actually it's the British who 268 00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:24,720 Speaker 5: who really were into the wordplay, and Americans they they 269 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:28,120 Speaker 5: look down on Americans. They were like those those crosswords 270 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:29,160 Speaker 5: are too easy. 271 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 1: And so now the crossword has become a normalized thing 272 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 1: here in Atlanta. For a long time there was a 273 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 1: paper called Creative Loafing and it was the Goldilocks Zone 274 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 1: of crosswords. If People Magazine is too easy and the 275 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 1: infamous Sunday New York Times is too difficult, then you 276 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:50,720 Speaker 1: could get together at It used to come out on 277 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 1: Thursdays here, so we would go to our local chicken 278 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 1: wing place and hang out for an hour after work 279 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 1: while we tried to while we would do the cross 280 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 1: Usually between like two or three of us, we could 281 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 1: figure it. 282 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 2: Out pretty much a bit of a brain trust. Yeah, no, Ben, 283 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:06,840 Speaker 2: you were usually taking the lead on this. This is 284 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 2: really more your thing. We were just kind of there 285 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:13,440 Speaker 2: for support. But you mentioned Will Schwartz as well, and 286 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:15,120 Speaker 2: there's I just wanted to mention it for anyone that 287 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:17,320 Speaker 2: wants to find out more about the craze. I haven't 288 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 2: seen this myself, but I know it's supposed to be 289 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:22,960 Speaker 2: good wordplay. It's a documentary that sort of talks specifically 290 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 2: about the bit of the history and just specifically about 291 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 2: his tenure as the crossword puzzle editor for Love Marit. 292 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 5: Times, and can I just throw in one quick one 293 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 5: about the easy and hard because a few years ago 294 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 5: the start of the reason I started this book and 295 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 5: podcast was a few years ago I was the answer 296 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:46,680 Speaker 5: to a clue in the New York Times cross re puzzle, 297 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:49,720 Speaker 5: and as a word nerd, I was like, this is 298 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 5: the best day of my life, Like, this is better. 299 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:52,960 Speaker 3: Do you have it? 300 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 5: Of course, But here's the twist. The twist is my 301 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 5: brother in law. Then I was on out nine, but 302 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 5: my brother in law sent me a very brother in 303 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 5: law email the next day He's like, congrats, but you 304 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 5: should know you're in the Saturday puzzle, and the Saturday 305 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:15,400 Speaker 5: is the puzzle. All the answers are totally obscure, like 306 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 5: like you know the palm of the Gomo Ti tree 307 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:21,040 Speaker 5: and h and so his point was. 308 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 3: The implication that you're a deep cut, the deepest cut. 309 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 5: I am so obscure, no one knows who I am. 310 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:32,240 Speaker 5: This is not accomplished. Hard. I think you should. 311 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:36,920 Speaker 1: I think you should leave a like partially completed versions 312 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 1: of the crossword around for your kids and let them 313 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 1: discover it for themselves. 314 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 5: Also, the only one that they would get wouldn't be me. 315 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:47,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, what a brother in law thing to Jujo. 316 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:50,000 Speaker 2: Just send an email about this first of all, and 317 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 2: the most backhanded of compliments, that is, I hope he's okay. 318 00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 1: I want to shout out. I want to shout out 319 00:16:57,160 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 1: one of the many books that you have written, a 320 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:04,200 Speaker 1: and one that informs your expertise in our conversation before 321 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:06,920 Speaker 1: we move to the next puzzle. You are the author 322 00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 1: of not just the podcast, but the book The Puzzler, 323 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:13,399 Speaker 1: One Man's Quest to solve the most baffling puzzles ever, 324 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:16,960 Speaker 1: from crosswords to jigsaws to the meaning of life. 325 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:19,360 Speaker 5: That's it a very humble title. 326 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:23,440 Speaker 2: And I have one tiny thing to add more pose 327 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 2: it here before we move on. How come there hasn't 328 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:30,480 Speaker 2: been a movie about a crossword puzzle related serial killer. 329 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:32,879 Speaker 3: I leave it with you, I leave it with the 330 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:35,720 Speaker 3: group as there not if there isn't there, there should 331 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:38,000 Speaker 3: be anything. I haven't seen it. I want to find 332 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:38,840 Speaker 3: out what it is. 333 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:41,120 Speaker 1: I must be thinking it like a mini series. Okay, yes, 334 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 1: that's a good call. No, we'll have to look into that. 335 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:47,359 Speaker 1: But let's say a j makes the film. Before we 336 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:51,120 Speaker 1: get to it, we have another puzzle that I don't 337 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:55,480 Speaker 1: know about you, guys, Maxwell, but this was brand new 338 00:17:55,520 --> 00:18:00,160 Speaker 1: to me. I have never heard of the Masquerade. 339 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:09,960 Speaker 5: Range, yet this one I endured up because I actually 340 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 5: got caught up in it a little because I'm older 341 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 5: than you guys, So I was this was published. It 342 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:18,719 Speaker 5: was a book. It was a book published in nineteen 343 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 5: seventy nine in the UK, and it was called Masquerade 344 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:26,760 Speaker 5: and the Artists. It was an illustrated book and there's 345 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:31,200 Speaker 5: gorgeous illustrations and they contained clues to a buried treasure 346 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 5: in the UK. An actual it was a rabbit, a 347 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:39,280 Speaker 5: gold and gem encrusted rabbit, buried somewhere in England. And 348 00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:43,440 Speaker 5: people went bananas like there were thousands of treasure hunters 349 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 5: and they dug up yards and gardens. They just created chaos. 350 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:53,320 Speaker 5: They the artist Kit Williams, he received death threats and 351 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 5: in the middle of the night three am visits from 352 00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 5: people covered in mud. People were arrested, they had to 353 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 5: be rescued from cliffs, and so it was just a 354 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:06,199 Speaker 5: mania and I loved I never went to England, but 355 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:10,720 Speaker 5: I spent you know, hours looking at these, uh these 356 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:14,959 Speaker 5: illustrations for clues, which of course I never cracked. 357 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 3: The golden hair. 358 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:19,760 Speaker 2: The gold hair absolutely new to me, and I mean, honestly, 359 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:23,159 Speaker 2: even the concept seems very novel, because at first I 360 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 2: was going to ask, like, were people just taking it 361 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:29,000 Speaker 2: too seriously? But no, there was a thing, there was 362 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:32,119 Speaker 2: an object of of whatever this this narrative. 363 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:34,920 Speaker 5: It was, and it was you know, it was insured 364 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:36,879 Speaker 5: for a couple hundred thousand dollars, so it was a 365 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 5: real thing, and actually it spawned all of these other there. 366 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:44,000 Speaker 5: It's a genre called armchair treasure hunts. 367 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:47,120 Speaker 1: Oh, like that guy in the US right, Well. 368 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:50,160 Speaker 5: There's the secret was a famous one where they're twelve 369 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:53,760 Speaker 5: treasures buried throughout North America and only three of them 370 00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:56,479 Speaker 5: have been found. So people are still obsessed on Like 371 00:19:56,520 --> 00:19:59,960 Speaker 5: you go on these these websites, you know, and people 372 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:05,320 Speaker 5: are man like they are. They've got all these theories, 373 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 5: they've got all these and they get very angry at 374 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:12,440 Speaker 5: the other one for having a different theory that the masquerade. 375 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 5: Just to close that loop, that one was solved three 376 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:22,000 Speaker 5: years later. It was buried in beneath the statue a 377 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:26,000 Speaker 5: statue of Catherine of Aragon, of the Queen, and in 378 00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:29,159 Speaker 5: a town called Bedford, and it was buried underneath the 379 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:32,440 Speaker 5: tip of a shadow cast at noon on the equinox. 380 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, that's just so. 381 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 2: It is like spe was there a bit of a 382 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 2: scandal though that maybe there were some accusations of cheating. 383 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:45,720 Speaker 5: Yes, and not just accusation. It was the guy who 384 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 5: solved it did cheat. He got inside information from the 385 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 5: ex girlfriend of the artist. And the artists are super 386 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:56,880 Speaker 5: bummed out. Uh. They the official winners were. These were 387 00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 5: these two physics teachers who actually solved it for real, 388 00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:02,800 Speaker 5: but they didn't get the They didn't get the rabbit. 389 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 5: The cheater got the rabbit. So but yes, it was, Uh, 390 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 5: it was despite the scandal at the end, enormously influential. 391 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:13,920 Speaker 5: You might have also, I don't know if you. I 392 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:16,440 Speaker 5: don't think you've done an episode on Forest Fen. That's 393 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 5: a famous treasure hunt. 394 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:21,240 Speaker 1: That's who I was thinking. That's what I was thinking about. Yeah, 395 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 1: and that also with the Armchair treasure Hunt a j 396 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:30,240 Speaker 1: What I find fascinating about these is that this led 397 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:33,960 Speaker 1: to conspiracy theorists. Of course, like in the Forest Fen 398 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:37,879 Speaker 1: case and the Secret case and in the Golden Hair case, 399 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 1: weren't there some people who were like, there's something up 400 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:43,320 Speaker 1: with this official story there's. 401 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:46,480 Speaker 5: More exactly that was. I mean, this is a hint 402 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:52,560 Speaker 5: into the human mind because people, even years after it 403 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:56,680 Speaker 5: had been found, they were like, no, my my theory 404 00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 5: is correct. It really is here. It's really under the 405 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:04,119 Speaker 5: you know, the Tower of London, or you know that 406 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:08,920 Speaker 5: people just get so attached to their theory that they 407 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 5: just cannot switch gears. 408 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:13,600 Speaker 1: Open your eyes, sheeple. The hair is still out there. 409 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 1: It's still out there. 410 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:19,479 Speaker 5: Go dig up some yards in England. But luckily no 411 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 5: one died during the Masquerade hunt. But Forrest Fenn, this 412 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:26,200 Speaker 5: was a treasure buried in the Rockies and I think 413 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 5: it was twenty ten about and he had a book 414 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 5: with clues to it, and five people died while searching 415 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:33,479 Speaker 5: for that treasure. 416 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:36,480 Speaker 2: So would you argue that maybe there's you know, you 417 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 2: got to be really careful with this kind of stuff. 418 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:42,840 Speaker 5: No, just go ahead and just go nuts, you know 419 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 5: what I mean, just jump off cliffs. 420 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:49,159 Speaker 2: And at what point does it become intriguing enough to 421 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:53,280 Speaker 2: spawn that kind of devotion and obsession? Like, you know, 422 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 2: not anybody has the chops to pull something like this off, 423 00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:00,560 Speaker 2: because it requires enough notoriety, a b. It has to 424 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:03,800 Speaker 2: be cleverly constructed to have enough people that don't just 425 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:05,879 Speaker 2: aren't just able to solve it instantly, like are there 426 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,200 Speaker 2: any elements that you see and stuff like this, because 427 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:09,800 Speaker 2: I'd really never heard of this, and now I want 428 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 2: to find out more about what makes a good one 429 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:16,240 Speaker 2: of these sort of real world mystery kind of treasure 430 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 2: hunt things. 431 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 1: Well, Finn had a poem. I loved the poem, right, 432 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:25,120 Speaker 1: And I guess the idea is that you can play 433 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:27,919 Speaker 1: along at home, right, you get you get pieces, and 434 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:31,720 Speaker 1: there's this maddening thing about the human need for pattern recognition. Right, 435 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:36,159 Speaker 1: That's that's my armchair guess because I was obsessed with 436 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:38,880 Speaker 1: a Finn situation for a while and that was kind 437 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 1: of sad when it was found. 438 00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:41,840 Speaker 5: Did you go out and look for it? 439 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:45,399 Speaker 1: I did. I did not go out and look for it, 440 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:48,240 Speaker 1: but my friends, I spent probably a little too much 441 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 1: time on those forums. I was thinking, I'm never gonna 442 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:53,359 Speaker 1: find it, but I want to learn about it, and 443 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 1: I would literally make popcorn and then go online and 444 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:02,960 Speaker 1: read various Yeah, I would read various like subreddits. So 445 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:05,720 Speaker 1: I came in very late in the game. This was 446 00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:08,440 Speaker 1: like twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen. 447 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 2: And I guess my question can really apply to any 448 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 2: of these crazes or like, you know, what makes something 449 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:18,679 Speaker 2: you know, of enough interest that enough people are going 450 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:20,920 Speaker 2: to be involved, but difficult enough that people aren't gonna 451 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:23,040 Speaker 2: be able to solve that. That injects a certain amount 452 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:26,200 Speaker 2: of competition, a certain amount of kind of you know, 453 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:29,400 Speaker 2: sportsmanised ship, and like it creates sort of a community, 454 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:32,879 Speaker 2: whether it be crossword puzzles, these real life treasure hunts, 455 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:35,000 Speaker 2: or you know, other types of puzzles that we're going 456 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:36,919 Speaker 2: to get into. Do you have any thoughts about, like 457 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:40,639 Speaker 2: what what makes these things kind of catch the public imagination? 458 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:41,400 Speaker 1: Yeah? 459 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:44,840 Speaker 5: I think there a couple of factors. One is just lock. 460 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:47,639 Speaker 5: It's like tulip mania, something just blows up and reaches 461 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:50,680 Speaker 5: a tipping point. Another is a lot of these manias 462 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 5: seem to happen during Like the Jigsaw puzzle mania was 463 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:59,719 Speaker 5: during the depression, a wordle was during the pandemic, So 464 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:06,560 Speaker 5: there's a little of that going on. They asked, that 465 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:10,399 Speaker 5: is a puzzle with no real answer exactly that is, 466 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:13,840 Speaker 5: but it's the same. That's another cause is, like you said, 467 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:17,239 Speaker 5: we are wired to look for patterns, whether or not 468 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:19,960 Speaker 5: they exist, So this is a very deep I mean 469 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 5: the first puzzle, of course, was you know, who do 470 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:24,720 Speaker 5: I mat with? Who do how do I eat? 471 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:25,239 Speaker 1: You know? 472 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:28,439 Speaker 5: So, so it's all of the same and uh and 473 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,920 Speaker 5: so we have a very deep need for this and uh. 474 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:35,600 Speaker 5: And puzzles just satisfy that that aha instinct that we 475 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:39,160 Speaker 5: that we are wired to look for. And I love them. 476 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:41,560 Speaker 5: I mean, I think they have a dark side. Like 477 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 5: you say, QAnon is kind of a big puzzle, But 478 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:48,280 Speaker 5: on the other hand, I think that there are wonderful 479 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:51,840 Speaker 5: They're like a way to train your minds. And here's 480 00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:54,400 Speaker 5: a little though this is I tried a little wisdom 481 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:58,480 Speaker 5: for my kids. Quincy Jones as a saying, he says, 482 00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 5: I don't have problems. I have puzzles in my life. 483 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:03,920 Speaker 1: Oh that's beautiful. 484 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:06,159 Speaker 5: Yeah, he reframes life as a series of puzzle This 485 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:07,159 Speaker 5: is much more pleasant. 486 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:10,399 Speaker 2: But also as a record producer, you know, as a 487 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:13,040 Speaker 2: music producer, when you're in the studio with an artist, 488 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,800 Speaker 2: it's a series of problems that you're trying to solve creatively, 489 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 2: you know. So, I mean, I think that's what he's 490 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:18,959 Speaker 2: referring to in a lot of ways too, is how 491 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 2: do I figure out how to get these pieces to 492 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 2: fit together, get these elements to work together harmoniously, because, 493 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:27,919 Speaker 2: like you know, as a sort of fair weather armchair 494 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:30,320 Speaker 2: music producer myself, that is part of the fun is 495 00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 2: figuring out how to get these disparate elements to kind 496 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 2: of play nice together. 497 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:36,199 Speaker 1: And I want to go back to the point you 498 00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:40,719 Speaker 1: raise about jigsaw puzzles, AJ, because there is there is 499 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:44,120 Speaker 1: one guy that you spoke to pretty recently who might 500 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:47,639 Speaker 1: be one of the few people who likes jigsaw puzzles 501 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:51,920 Speaker 1: more than you. I'm thinking about Roy Wood Junior. 502 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:55,280 Speaker 5: Oh. Yes, he's a huge fan, and he's he's a 503 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:59,639 Speaker 5: great comedian, but he does jigsaws and he he glues 504 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 5: him to get other and uh and puts them on 505 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:04,600 Speaker 5: his wall, which I think some people do. When I 506 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,600 Speaker 5: went into this book, I was actually not a huge 507 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:11,080 Speaker 5: big jigsaw fan. I have converted. I actually really I 508 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:14,480 Speaker 5: converted so much that for the book, I competed as 509 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 5: with my family as Team USA in the World Jigsaw 510 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:23,719 Speaker 5: Puzzle Championships, and we sucked so hard. 511 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:25,640 Speaker 3: It's a very specific skill set. 512 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 1: I heard you talk about this on public radio not 513 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:29,200 Speaker 1: too too long ago. 514 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:31,719 Speaker 5: We came in second to last. We were just an 515 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:34,560 Speaker 5: embarrassment to our country, and they were every you know, 516 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:37,680 Speaker 5: Hungary was ahead of us, Turkey, you name it, the Russians. 517 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:44,159 Speaker 5: The Russians one so fast. There were rumors of, you know, 518 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:49,160 Speaker 5: of performance enhancing. So juicy juicy. 519 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:51,320 Speaker 1: The puzzle, Hi Max jumping in here. 520 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:53,160 Speaker 3: What does juicing in jigsaw? 521 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,760 Speaker 1: Puzzle jigsaw juicy, let's call it jigsaw juicy, jigsaw jy. 522 00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:01,480 Speaker 5: Sorry about the sirens. Wait, I'm guessing it. You know 523 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:02,280 Speaker 5: it was adderall. 524 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:02,840 Speaker 1: They did. 525 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:06,600 Speaker 5: They did recommend advil because you are the way set 526 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:09,679 Speaker 5: up is eight hours straight. You've got four people on 527 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:12,159 Speaker 5: a team, and you have four big puzzles of like 528 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:16,080 Speaker 5: two thousand pieces each, so you are standing over with 529 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:20,480 Speaker 5: your back hunch for eight hours. So advil is recommended 530 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 5: and allowed. I don't know. I'm sure there's adderall and other. 531 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:28,480 Speaker 2: Adderall and advil is like a jigsaw speedball in the community. 532 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:32,240 Speaker 1: I would want something. I would want something that relaxes 533 00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:34,200 Speaker 1: you a little bit, because I feel like there would 534 00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:36,159 Speaker 1: be there would be a lot of pressure. And I 535 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:39,680 Speaker 1: remember this story about your experience when I heard it, 536 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:43,400 Speaker 1: because you had been training right and we're feeling you 537 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:45,880 Speaker 1: guys are feeling pretty good about it. And there's certain 538 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:49,800 Speaker 1: strategies that I think, as you said, because when I 539 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:52,560 Speaker 1: was hearing this, it was a look into the mind 540 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:57,120 Speaker 1: of the everyman learning to master jigsaws, and I was thinking, yeah, 541 00:28:57,120 --> 00:28:58,920 Speaker 1: you get the quarter pieces right, you get the edges, 542 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 1: you go like that, and apparently that is a rookie 543 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:03,560 Speaker 1: move or something like that. 544 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:07,120 Speaker 5: It is, it is sometimes acceptable, but it depends on 545 00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:10,200 Speaker 5: the puzzle. If it's a very colorful puzzle, then then 546 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,360 Speaker 5: some of the pros go by sorting by color first 547 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:16,000 Speaker 5: and then to the edges. I mean, it is hilarious 548 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:20,120 Speaker 5: the amount of strategy that goes into this. And they 549 00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:23,760 Speaker 5: division of labor so they have an expert on the team, 550 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:27,120 Speaker 5: the Russian team who's like really good at at monocrement, 551 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:30,240 Speaker 5: Like if there's a blue sky, she will sort them 552 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:32,840 Speaker 5: all into different shapes so that it all fits together. 553 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:36,840 Speaker 5: But you know, I find that with everything, whatever it is, 554 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:39,120 Speaker 5: even if it's a seemingly trivial thing, like if you 555 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:42,680 Speaker 5: are at the top of Michael Jordan's and Lebron James 556 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:45,360 Speaker 5: is of anything is just fascinating to watch. 557 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:49,760 Speaker 2: But it's also it's not using the same I'm imagining 558 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:51,920 Speaker 2: it's not using the same parts of your brain that 559 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:54,840 Speaker 2: sorting out word puzzles are. Can you talk a little 560 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:59,440 Speaker 2: bit about the it's obviously pattern recognition and data mining 561 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:02,960 Speaker 2: slash sorting, But does it operate on the sand does 562 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:06,640 Speaker 2: Does your brain require the same types of smart says 563 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:09,440 Speaker 2: it does to do word puzzles or is it completely different? 564 00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:14,280 Speaker 5: I would say that there are some similarities between all puzzles, 565 00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 5: but you're right there are. This is much more spatial. 566 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,000 Speaker 5: I am terrible at space. Like it takes me five 567 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 5: I did not solve a rubiks cube for fifty two years, 568 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:26,600 Speaker 5: like because I solved it when I was fifty two. 569 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:31,360 Speaker 5: But all of them require things like being able to 570 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 5: think outside the box, which I can say because that 571 00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:38,760 Speaker 5: cliche comes from puzzles. Sure, it was the nine dots 572 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:41,960 Speaker 5: uh puzzle and you have to connect them with four 573 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:45,600 Speaker 5: pencil straight lines and you have to go outside the box. 574 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:50,800 Speaker 5: So all spoiler guys, spoilers, Oh yeah, sorry, sorry for 575 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:56,120 Speaker 5: spoiling that ancient puzzle. No, speaking of puzzles, we have 576 00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:57,800 Speaker 5: run into a puzzle situation. 577 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:00,640 Speaker 1: My friend, I think, uh, I think this is a 578 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 1: two parter. 579 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:03,479 Speaker 2: Oh man, it's time to pick up the pieces and 580 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:08,000 Speaker 2: try our hand to putting together a second. I don't know, 581 00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:12,080 Speaker 2: I'm not doing very well with my puzzle metaphorce here apologize, 582 00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 2: but yes, indeed, Aj is such a delight and we 583 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:16,960 Speaker 2: kind of had a feeling this might happen. We did 584 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:19,959 Speaker 2: have two complete topics on the docket with him, and 585 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:21,800 Speaker 2: we realized that just one of them was going to 586 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:22,400 Speaker 2: be a two parter. 587 00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:25,360 Speaker 3: So look for the next one sometime in the new year. 588 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:27,040 Speaker 3: And it's a doozy as well. 589 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 1: Agreed and big, big thanks to the legendary A. J. 590 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:33,800 Speaker 1: Jacobs for classing up our show. Big thanks to our 591 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:38,120 Speaker 1: super producer mister Max Williams, and additional thanks to our 592 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:42,800 Speaker 1: guest super producer Paul Mission Control Decade Woop Woop. 593 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:46,520 Speaker 2: Alex Williams who composed this banging theme you hear before 594 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:49,520 Speaker 2: your very ears. Christoph Rasciotis needs Jeff Coates here in 595 00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:53,600 Speaker 2: spirit and Ben last, but not least first in my heart, sir, 596 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:57,560 Speaker 2: the missing Jigsaw puzzle piece to my very soul. 597 00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:01,840 Speaker 1: You, sir, you're the Waldo to my wares Way. 598 00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:04,680 Speaker 3: We'll see you next time, folks. 599 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:13,960 Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, 600 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:16,200 Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.