00:00:00 Speaker 1: Welcome to How the Money. I'm Joel and I am Matt, and today we're answering your listener questions. 00:00:25 Speaker 2: You know what, buddy, it is a Monday. Had a money episode, which means we are answering listener questions. We've got some awesome ones to get to today, including one from a listener. She's wondering whether or not's FSA accounts. First of all, what our FSA accounts? We'll talk about that, but we want to a lot of people are wondering right now. We're gonna talk about whether or not they're worth a hassle. Basically, we're gonna talk about what you can do if you don't qualify for a roth Ira and another listener, she's trying to figure out how to mentally make the shift from being a saver to maybe a little bit more of a spender. Oh, first rings, We've got those plus others during this episode today. Man, but first man, So my in loss. They've been looking at houses recently. They're considering making a move, which in turn means I think I've been looking at houses. Let's be honest. Everyone likes to just stop on Zillow peruse see what's see what's out there. 00:01:19 Speaker 1: Once you become a person of a certain age, that's like your your past time, that's your Instead of scrolling TikTok, we scrolled Zillow. 00:01:27 Speaker 2: Even given the current mortgage rate environment. Well, I guess with us being investors, I feel like there's a part of that that there's a sirens call to be like is there a deal or is there. 00:01:35 Speaker 1: I would like to keep my fingers on the pulse right so I know what's going on and so I can see one because what we do here need to be familiar, well the advice we get from a community standpoint. I want to know what's out there for me personally. I think that's why I look at it. I totally know what's going on around me for sure, keep my head on a swivel when it comes to the real estate moment. 00:01:51 Speaker 2: But what I wanted to ask is I saw a listing where there was a pool that was virtually staged. So you've heard of furniture. Of course, you've seen listings where there's furniture that's virtually staged. What are your thoughts when you virtually staged a pool? And in tiny letters in tiny type below it said pool is virtually staged thoughts. All right, so I've got a couple thoughts on homestaging. One, all the stats show host staging in general. 00:02:20 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, then when you stage at home, it sells for a lot more money. And I do think you are probably cheap, not frugal if you take pictures with if you've already moved out and you take pictures of the rooms being empty, it seems like it's a high price to pay to get that home stage. But the numbers don't lie, and they reveal that it's probably gonna be worth it. You're going to have you're going to sell your home more quickly, You're gonna more interested buyers if you have a stage. 00:02:42 Speaker 2: Well, it makes sense because people have a hard time visualizing what it would look, right, like, what are you supposed to do with this space? I don't know. But then when you see it all staged professionally exactly, Oh, I could totally see myself hanging. 00:02:51 Speaker 1: Out there, even if you end up using that room differently, provides you at least like a frame of reference. So when it comes to virtual staging, I think it's a far cheaper option, and at least in the pictures it gives people something to grab onto, so that is. 00:03:06 Speaker 2: I mean, it accomplishes the same thing. Obviously if you're going in person, it's not going to be staged, right right, because it's all done virtually. 00:03:14 Speaker 1: But the pool part of the pool that takes it to a whole. 00:03:18 Speaker 2: Are you really like why not? It's dishonest, that's why. 00:03:22 Speaker 1: Oh I thought you don't mean that they're just putting in chairs and stuff. They're putting in a fake pool. 00:03:26 Speaker 2: Yes, oh okay, but no, no, no, they're not staging the deck so that like with a patio furniture, they're literally putting in a fake pool. Okay, that's weird. Yeah, no, that's lying. I think, yes. 00:03:35 Speaker 1: Exactly, I thought you meant they were like literally just putting deck chairs. 00:03:38 Speaker 2: Around the No, like there's a fake pool where it's just like, this is what it could look like if you decided to put a pool in, which seems completely dishonestally messed up. I am not okay, good, I'm glad you glad you agree, because nobody, like with furniture, no one's thinking where's the furniture, Like, where's that cozy king sized bed that I thought I purchased? No one is actually thinking that as opposed to a pool that's a permanent. 00:04:00 Speaker 1: Fixture, and that's part of the reason you go to visit the house in the first place. Yeah, exactly, that's thirty completely under Yeah, yeah, why not virtually stage Here's what an entirely new addition to the home would look like were you to add onto the house, right, that's just yeah, not cool. 00:04:16 Speaker 2: Or an adu if you built it, Yeah, all that kind of stuff. Let's go ahead, stage it at the beach. This is what it would look like if your home was at the beach instead of in that crappy neighborhood. 00:04:23 Speaker 1: If our home was like a two thousand square feet bigger this is what it would look like. 00:04:26 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that's exactly. It's really awkward, not cool. I don't think that's going to catch on. It was a singular instance. 00:04:32 Speaker 1: Again, if you've moved all of your your pool lounge stuff to your new house, to your new pool, virtual stage, virtual staging. 00:04:39 Speaker 2: Makes for it. Yeah yeah, because nobody expect that's still going to be there when you move it. That's right, that's I think that's kind of how you determine whether or not you're being fru or cheap or dishonest or crook or whatever. All right, that's weird. 00:04:50 Speaker 1: Never even heard of this happening before, but glad to know that it exists. I'll be on the lookout, all right, Matt. 00:04:54 Speaker 2: Let's move on. 00:04:55 Speaker 1: Let's mention the beer we're having on this episode. This one's a blood orange double Wit by ponder Rosa Brewing. Big thanks to our friend Bob from New Mexico for tossing this beer our way. 00:05:04 Speaker 2: Looking forward to enjoying this one, and we'll share our thoughts on what we think of it at the end of the episode, for sure. 00:05:09 Speaker 1: But let's get on to listener questions. If you have a money question, you can send yours our way how to money dot com. Slash ask is the place where you can go for simple instructions to record a voice memo and email it to us. That's basically all it takes. But the first listener question of today, Matt, this one comes from someone who's after our own heart. Not only do they drink beer, but they want to invest in it. 00:05:30 Speaker 3: Hey guys, this is br from Mississippi. I bought some beer stock a few months back. Am I wrath Ara, And it's curious when I sell it, what my tax implications will be if I'm keeping the money on that account and buying some more stock with it. 00:05:44 Speaker 2: Thanks all right, b R. First of all, I love that you bought beer stock. I mean, of course, I'm gonna make it clear we are not fans of single stock investing for the vast majority of folks, because the truth is, most folks don't have the time. Even if you did have the time, do you have the expertise, do you have the knowledge in order to take that route and to do it successfully? Where you're investing in an underlying company, not buying because it's something that you heard of or that you think might be fun. But at least you bought stock of companies who make beer. We're bringing joy to the masses. That's something that we can get behind. Even though personally, I feel like Joel, you and I have invested in breweries and beer companies just via our consumption, Via our own consumption, it the I don't know, I feel like there's that's the right way to invest. A small, tiny dent that we've made in the craft beer scene. I don't know, it does not even register on the Richter scale. One of these craft breweries and the impact that we've had on the industry. 00:06:39 Speaker 1: One of these days will open up our own brewery and then we'll it'll be like beer Mecca for how to money. Listeners come hang out with us and they have to make a trip to the southeast. 00:06:47 Speaker 2: Did you see someone comment on something a few weeks ago about there's a local brewery here in Atlanta and they were selling and they're like, hey, boys, maybe I'll look into this. 00:06:56 Speaker 1: Yeah, I did see that one of these something that can say it's on, it's on my two consider this for sure, But no, I agree with you and our friend Brian Ferraldi. Actually this is something he talks about a lot, is investing in individual stocks. And I tell you what, he wrote a whole book. But we should have him on at some point in the show to talk about this. But single stock investing requires a whole lot of your time, attention, and a lot of discipline. It requires so many different things. That's why for most people were not big fans of it. 00:07:22 Speaker 4: Right. 00:07:23 Speaker 1: One of the reasons people tend to buy single stocks is company familiarity, like buying it because you like their beer or something right, or I like watching Netflix, so maybe I'll buy some Netflix stock. 00:07:31 Speaker 2: This is the tasty beer. I want to invest in this company, yeah, or which is obviously something that you would definitely say after enjoying a very nice beer to be like, oh, well, help these guys out. 00:07:40 Speaker 1: Or people invest in Apple because they like the iPhone or the MacBook or whatever. And so even though those companies make compelling products, you got to weigh so many more factors before you opt to buy each of the stocks on their own. So, for example, you got to ask questions like, what's the competitive landscape like in those industries? What's the current pe ratio price to earnings ratio that the stock is trading at? How will I know when to sell? Like at what point does the stock go up enough? And now maybe it's not it's that company's not in as favorable of a position, and so it's time to get out. There are just so many unknowns in the single stock investing sphere. And it's not that it can't be done well. It's just that there are hundreds of potential pitfalls, and most folks don't have the time to accumulate that knowledge. Like we said, to do single stock investing well, So I get why people are intrigued. Why they're like, oh, this sounds kind of fun. Because again going back to like sixth grade, when we did that the stock investing thing, Matt, like we did in middle school, like so many people did. 00:08:38 Speaker 2: It's the exact stock investing game. 00:08:40 Speaker 1: Yeah, the wrong way to learn about the market. But for so many people it's intriguing, but it's not great for building wealth. 00:08:46 Speaker 2: And well, one of the considerations is what would you otherwise do with that money? That's something that we offer. That's a question we often raise because if the alternative is to just drink it away, to literally spend it all on the actual beer as opposed to the company, then I would say, from a financial standpoint, you are most likely going to come out further ahead by investing in the actual company, right. I wish I had the numbers on hand, But like, had you instead of purchasing the first Macintosh three or whatever, had you instead taken that money and invested within the Apple company in and of itself. I don't know the specifics, but I'm pretty sure you'd be a million a millionaire multiple times out here for sure. No, that's true if you I'm the iPod or not even the first Tesla that came out, if you had suck but instead purchase Tesla stock, So it comes down to whether or not you're going to consume those dollars. And if that's the alternative and you're like, well, the only way I'm actually going to invest is by doing this, I would say, well, chances are you probably probably are going to come out ahead. Even though it's not the most optimal way, I do like it better than not investing at all. But that being said, vr you said that you're going to sell that specific stock or those stocks, maybe buy something different. What we would encourage you to do then is to just get out of the single stock investing game, get out of that sphere. Instead, use the funds from that sale to go in on just low cost total stock market index funds or a target date fund. And the great thing about taking this far simpler approach is that you're likely going to score even higher returns over the years. And of course you're also going to be able to declutter your brain at the same time, right where you're not going to have to think about the specific movements and what is going on with the specific company, as opposed to just saying you know, what I'm going to invest basically in the entire United States as a whole. Will we progress, Will we continue to create goods and services that the not only US citizens but people globally that they're willing to invest in, And so kind of going back to what I was saying before, even though it may be, investing in anything is better than investing and nothing if truly the easy button to hit is in index fund where A you're not having to think about it, but B you are going to be more optimally invested across many, many different industries. You are going to be diversified. 00:10:57 Speaker 1: YEA. Hopefully there aren't two options on the table, either consume more beer or invest in beer stock. Hopefully there are other directions you'd be willing to funnel those dollars. And if that's the case, I agree, Matt. Like we talk about here all the time, the simple route, the simple, diversified, low cost route, is the best way to go. A total stock market fund or a target day fund are great places to stick money inside of that, roth Ira, And let's get to the heart of BR's question here too, because he's asking about the tax consequences of buying and selling stock within his WROTH, and so it sounds like you and I am Matt, we both agree that selling this beer stock makes the most sense. But what are the tax consequences for actually pulling the trigger on that? Well, fortunately he made this investment inside of a tax advantage accountant, one of our favorites, which is the roth IRA And so, not that you want to be trading regularly, but if you are day trading like a crazy person, well, doing it inside of a WROTH is going to prevent some of the adverse tax impacts you're likely to encounter. Let's say you were doing that instead a taxable brokerage account. 00:11:56 Speaker 2: Mm. 00:11:56 Speaker 1: Yeah, you have a potentially hefty tax bill at the end of the year. And so again we're not suggesting you take this route. We don't want you day trading like a maniac. But slow and steady index investing inside of that ROTH is the best move for most individuals. But if you sell this stock inside of the ROTH and you then purchase an index fund with the money that you cash out of the beer stock, you won't have any sort of tax consequences because you're in that tax sheltered status essentially inside of that ROTH. 00:12:23 Speaker 4: Yeah. 00:12:24 Speaker 2: Yeah, So that's the good news of having invested within a retirement account, even within a traditional as well, because you could also buy and sell as much as you want within a traditional irate, not just the WROTH, and you are still not going to have to pay taxes on any potential gains until you actually make any take any distributions from that account. 00:12:42 Speaker 1: Whereas if it was inside of a tax bill broker you can't realize that every single time. 00:12:47 Speaker 2: Yeah, one of the. 00:12:48 Speaker 1: And it depends what your tax rate is on the gains, depends on how long you've owned it, because if it's less than a year, you're talking about ordinary income tax rates. If you vote it that holding that position for more than a year, you're talking to cap gains tax ring exactly. 00:13:01 Speaker 2: And this this is sort of a nod to twenty twenty and just the meme stock trading day trading frenzy that was taking place back then. And I think this has a lot to do with why we had a more negative view of Robinhood because at that point in time, they didn't have retirement accounts, they didn't have rough irays or traditional I rays. All they had were brokerage accounts, and so the assumption was was that they were siphoning off all these potential investors who could be pouring money into their actual retirement accounts that are far superior from a tax standpoint, and instead they were getting tempted into meme songs basically, And so that was whereas and then they were righted that ship somewhat because now they offer retirement accounts, but still it kind of has some of that twenty twenty residue on it from all of the trading that they were encouraging back then. 00:13:44 Speaker 1: And so many of those traders were shocked at the beginning of the next year. Oh yeah, and they saw all the tax information and they were like, huh wait, this is like this is like as thick as Ley miz or something like that. 00:13:53 Speaker 2: Like pages ten ninety nine B where they get all their trade confirmations that they have to report to the IRS. A lot of those folks were shocked. 00:14:00 Speaker 1: It can be a tax assle but also a paperwork castle when we're talking about filing your taxes if you trade frequently inside of a brokerage account. But br keep up the good work man. Do not worry about the tax consequences of this sale because it's in the proper account. 00:14:11 Speaker 2: You're good. It's you're good. You're set. 00:14:13 Speaker 1: Yeah, and really, the only way you pay any sort of penalty in regards to your roth ira. You can even pull off those contributions whenever you want. We wouldn't suggest it. We'd advise you to keep that money locked inside of that roth for as many years as you can. But the only way in which you're going to pay any sort of penalty is if you take out the earnings in that roth ira too early before you reach retirement age. If that's the case, you are going to pay that ten percent penalty to the federal government, which is another reason to wait and not tap those funds until you reset age fifty nine and a half threshold. But yeah, we hope that advice steers you away from attempting to pick stocks moving forward, and that you just kind of take the average gains of the market, take it in stride, and it's just going to kind of keep your mind at ease to it, I think. 00:14:58 Speaker 2: At the same time, that's right, Matt. 00:15:00 Speaker 1: We've got more questions to get to, including one from a listener who says, I think I make too much to contribute to a roth What do I do. Then we'll talk about that and more right after this. 00:15:18 Speaker 2: Oh right, we are back and we will get to a question soon about a couple who may be on the path to fire. But first let's hear from a listener who is trying to change her money mindset. 00:15:30 Speaker 3: Hi. 00:15:30 Speaker 5: My name's Jenny, and I live in pickin South Carolina. I've been a saveror my whole life. How do you shift the mindset of a saver to a spender when you're near or in retirement. I've got the funds, I just cringe to use them, especially if there are tax implications. Your guidance will be helpful. 00:15:52 Speaker 2: Thanks so much, Rgel Jenny's cringing, can you relate I come to spending some money? 00:15:58 Speaker 1: No, I hear this, and I especially from five eight years ago, Joel, I see myself in Jenny when she's asking this question. She's certainly not alone in this, and I think, well, the vast majority of Americans struggle with the exact opposite problem. Right, So when people are like, true, how do I actually start to save? Because I spent too much? That is, I mean, when you look at all the data, that is the majority average American, right, who's just like out spending their paycheck. They're living on the financial precipice. But actually there are a decent chunk of folks in the how to Money audience who do find it hard to spend their money, even if they've got plenty of it. 00:16:33 Speaker 2: It's funny, Matt. 00:16:33 Speaker 1: When we were in New Orleans for FINCN, we met a listener Dylan. I was talking to him and his wife, Danielle, and she was talking about how he won't ever spend on things, even if he's like loves the thing, and it's like, we're such good savers, but he won't ever pull the trigger. And I was like, I get it. I've been there, that has been me, And so maybe we should offer a few tips for Jenny and then by proxy our friend Dylan too. 00:16:54 Speaker 2: Yeah, totally, so, Jenny, I think it might be worth asking yourself some questions. So first of all, I want you to think through why is it that you've been saving money in the first place. Truly A great way to think about money, regardless of whether you're not you're saving and investing it or spending it now, is that at some point the ultimate goal of these dollars is to actually spend it is that largely because you can't take it with your matt. It's you're either spending it now or you're spending it later. 00:17:18 Speaker 1: Put it in the Costco casket with me, right, I mean when you think about it like that, it puts it in perspective. You're like, oh, yeah, no, I don't want like hundreds of thousands of dollars tossed in the casket metivarian and you realize that there are things that can live on to do, but. 00:17:30 Speaker 2: You're just confined by time. And so it's just it's just a matter of when do you want to a lot for yourself to actually spend these dollars. And so if saving is just deferred spending, then what you need to ask yourself is what were you hoping to accomplish with the dollars that you opt to instead push into the future. What we want you to do here is to focus on some of the different spending goals. And maybe I don't know that might even sound weird, like don't you don't even say spending goals? Just think through what do I want to accomplish in my life with the people I love, with my friends. It can be within my community lifestyle goals too, right, because for so many, well, it's buying back their time. Yeah. Absolutely, And as you start to explore and think through what you might want to do, like just consider whether or not you want to travel right or like maybe you want to spend more time at the beach, or maybe you even want to buy a beach home. What we want you to ask yourself is what is your actual craft beer equivalent. There's a reason that we ask that at the beginning of all of our interviews because it's just such a good insight into that specific individual and what it is that they value and what it is that they prioritize. And what's fun is that those things kind of they change over time, But truly we want you to focus on that and kind of find a way to ramp up your spending on the things that are going to be able to bring you happiness. Like, honestly, just take a page out of ramit Seti's book and even think about how you can take it up to eleven on the things that you truly care about. We don't want you to buy things that you don't care about. Don't buy crap just because you can. We want you to align your spending with your values, and then once you're able to identify that, don't be afraid to funnel more dollars in that direction. And if this is something maybe that you haven't done, we would recommend for you to check out our Money Mission Statement. The whole, the entire reason that we created this worksheet was to help folks to spend some time thinking through what is it that I want to accomplish within my life? And that's going to allow you to prioritize the dollars that you have towards things that mean the most to you. I still remember when we had wellingk to that, by the way, the Money Mission Statement and within the show notes for this episode, I remember when we had remat on the show Matt and he was kind of pushing us in that direction. And it's funny because I think most people, like I said earlier, they don't have that problem. But there are some people in the How of Money audience, and you and I included at times, who focused so much on saving and investing that we're not as focused on living for the day and those dollars, if they can fuel added joy in your life in the here and now, while you're also being intentional for the future. Don't be afraid to use them. Right, Let's talk about another question you need to ask yourself. Is this money actually for spending or are you hoping to be either like incredibly philanthropic or you're wanting to give money away to the next generation. Yeah, kids, grand kids, that kind of stuff. Those are important questions to ask, important things to think through as well, because some people are all about that generational wealth, right. They want to help give their kids and their kids' kids that the next generation. They want to give their their family a leg up from a financial perspective. They don't Maybe they start started behind the eight ball and they want their their family to start in front of the eight ball. I guess, I don't know. But other people want to start on top of it. The whole idea that the cue ball is like if you're stuck behind the a ball because you can't hit it right right, you have to go around it, that kind of thing. So you want to be in front of it. You want to just be out in the open, yeah, nowhere near the wide open spaces. 00:20:35 Speaker 1: But other people want to be able to give away big chunks of their nest egg to charities that they care about, which is admirable and a totally legit awesome way to funnel those dollars you've been able to build up over the years. You know, frugal folks who have a hard time spending on personal consumption, they might find it easier to give away money to a worthy cost. So ask yourself those questions because that can dictate what you do with some of those dollars now as well. Maybe you're saying, listen, I have all that I need. I'm not trying to move the goalpost. I don't want a yacht or a beach house like, but I would love to see to be able to donate five figures or six figures to these two or three charities that mean so much to me, that do great work where I live or across the ocean. Those are great questions to ask because I think they'll help bring out maybe ways that you can funnel the money not instead of just hoarding it. 00:21:22 Speaker 2: Absolutely, because I think oftentimes, like when you say, oh, you should travel more, somebody who's maybe in traditional retirement years are thinking, man, I don't want to travel, like that's for my kids to do, or that's what the grand kids are doing. The ability to instead channel your dollars and your efforts towards something that is meaningful to you, I think can be incredibly worthwhile and it can sort of remove this self absorbed, consumption based mentality that I think some folks might feel when we say what's your craft beer equivalent? Like what do you want to spend a ton of money on? And instead I think if you can focus on like the happiness of other people, I think ultimately that can bring a lot of those folks actual happiness, right instead of trying to actively pursue the things like what is it out there that's going to make me happy? I think if you can live your life in a way that is able to be a service to others, I think for a lot of those folks, maybe that's the ticket. Like that's the answer. And it's funny that you mentioned remat because one of the things that I remember, like you said, he kind of challenged us that he talked about when it came to craft beer, but he said, well, how can you how can you crank that up to eleven? And we're like, well, we drink like the best beers in the world. I don't know how else we could ramp that up. He kept asking a few questions, but then one of the things he said was, well, what about if you like took a bunch of your friends along with you and they were able to and you're and you're paying for their tickets or you're you're paying for their beers. And it's funny because you just mentioned like the listener beer hang when we're in New Orleans, Like that's something that we were able to do there is cover everybody's beer. The ability for us to be generous in that way is I know, something that brings us both a tremendous amount of joy because that's the kind of environment in the community. Not only do we want to see at my nice, awesome, delicious craft breweries, but just within the how to money community and the world at large, right, the ability to be generous with what it is that you've been blessed with and using that to help other folks out too. 00:23:10 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think picking up the tab of dinner buying beers for a friend like that is the kind of thing. 00:23:13 Speaker 2: That I never regret it. Yeah, ever, Like it makes me so happy just to. 00:23:18 Speaker 1: Think back to that event, think about the smiles on people's faces and be like, we got to play a role in that. So yeah, and I'll say this too, I think it's tough to change. 00:23:25 Speaker 2: Your mindset on this. 00:23:26 Speaker 1: If you have been kind of a frugal lighte and adherent to frugal mantras for most of your life, it's really tough to kind of turn on a dime. And I think it takes a little bit a little while to actually kind of move into spend or territory, even if it's somewhat reluctant. And so I think it's important to realize that the tool that got you to where you are is not the one that's going to help you enjoy the most meaningful retirements. And the saddest stories to me actually from a money perspective are the ones where it's someone who had a very low income and retired with millions and millions and millions. In the there's the one of the janitor who retired with eight million dollars, but nobody knew that he had any money because of the way he lived. He lived so such a spartan existence, and in some ways that's kind of cool, right. It proves the power of compounding returns and that almost anybody, even on a low income, can amass millions. But on the other side of the equation, right, it makes makes me realize at least that I'd like to see my money bring my family joy and do good in the world while I'm alive and cacking. I don't necessarily want to build up millions and millions and millions to be dispersed after I'm gone. 00:24:31 Speaker 2: Yeah, and this isn't to say that someone who works like a minimum wage job for their entire life and never takes a break, that there's anything to be looked down upon if that's the path that they've chosen, right, as long as they're doing it intentionally, because I think there's a lesson that a lot of folks can learn where it's just like, oh man, that individual was able to find happiness doing something in service of others, right, Like, it's an incredibly humble job, and what better way to basically love other people than doing that. As long as you're doing it intentionally and you're aware and your eyes are open to what's out there that you could be doing, I think that that's totally fun. 00:25:06 Speaker 1: It's not even about getting a different job, it's just about not pushing all those dollars to such an extreme future that you don't ever get to enjoy or see them do good. Sure, if you think for a lot of people it's done out of a scarcity mindset. 00:25:19 Speaker 2: And if that's the case, then that's what we're pushing back against the fact that, hey, at some point it's worth considering what you could do with these dollars. I don't know if thinking about the same story or whatever. But the guy, I think he left most of the money to like a local library, which is awesome. And if that's because he was a patron there and he knew the folks there and knew that they needed the funding, or that's just something that he wanted to further within his community. If that's something that was done intentionally, I am totally for that. But I do agree that there's like, I like what you said about the tools I got you to where you are now are not necessarily the same tools that you're gonna need to put to use moving forward. There is so much of our own identity that's tied up in how it is that we got to where we are right And so for the person out there who's an ultra frugal light. It's gonna be really hard for them to kind of break free of that mindset that got them to the point to where they have that money. Like literally, I was talking to a buddy this morning and we're talking about Tesla's and he's also a fan of Tesla's. But then he thought through, He's like, well, I don't necessarily need one right now, but maybe if the car broke down and you know, we had the money saved up. But he said, but even still, it would be hard for me to accept the fact that I'm the guy driving the Tesla. He's like, you know, he drives an old Honda's Hannah Accord, And for him, it's like, you know, he associates the person that drives a Tesla as a certain type of person, and he doesn't want to be that person. It's just that he thinks of the car is super cool. So it's hard for us to break free of that identity. And sometimes it means saying, you know what, just because I have in the past perceived someone that spends in this way or uses their money to do x YZ, whatever it is, that doesn't necessarily mean that you can't sort of change that narrative and own how it is that you want to spend that money and still be the person that you are, not this sort of stereotypical person who's gonna, you know, flash money. 00:27:07 Speaker 1: I think probably things that you and I said on the podcast in that first year, in particular when we have much younger kids. Yeah, we were all about, like, well, throw all every kid you have in the same bedroom, and like we would we would say things like that, and I think there's like a small amount of wisdom in that. But it's not for everybody, and it's not for us anymore. That was for younger us. Your priorities change, Oh yeah, and so I think it's okay to let your priorities change, and it's okay to redefine expectations. Obviously spend less than you are and make sure you know it's but finding those things that you are willing to happily spend money on is part of the joy of having money too, So yeah, don't lean into that a little bit. And by the way, totally Jenny mentioned tax implications and definitely do not throw caution in the wind when it comes to taxes. But if you've been saving in tax advantage, accounts for decades, you've been able to avoid a whole lot of tax right that you would have otherwise had to pay. And you can't avoid it forever because you're likely going to encounter R and d's required men distributions in your early seventies, and so if you haven't started tapping into some of those funds in the coming years, your overall tax liability could be even larger because you're gonna have higher forced distributions every single year. So it might even make sense from a financial from a tax perspective, to tap some of those funds. 00:28:18 Speaker 2: Opposed to getting penalized. Yes, exactly. In this way, the IRS is actually kind of helpful because they're helping you to spend your money. I think it used to be if you skipped out on your rmds, I think it was fifty percent, but then that got bummed down to twenty five percent with secure two point zero, which is still a lot higher than the vast majority of folks given the tax bracket that the majority of Americans are in. So even that being said, twenty five percent, you're like, oh, that's not too bad. No, that's still a lot more than your actual tax bracket. And what it is that you're paying, and so Jenny hopefully doesn't take the irs basically getting ready to siphon off a big old take a big old bite out of your retirement dollars to actually get you to spend some of your money. But hey, it's sort of like, I don't know, it's like a cliff and you know you're getting close to it and you don't want to turn the wheel, but at some point you're going to be forced to otherwise you're going to lose even more of your mind. I'm driving to the air if I always want to turn the wheel. But Jenny, we hope that that gets you pointed in the right direction. Joel, let's hear from our next listener who is totally crushing it when it comes to her investments, but she has found herself in a pickle. 00:29:21 Speaker 6: Hey, Matt and Joel, this is Rihanna from Lancaster, PA. And no we're not all amish here. So I love the podcast and the newsletter Straight Fire. Thanks for all you guys do. So here's my question. When discussing our twenty twenty three tax return with our financial advisor recently, he pointed out that our adjusted gross income AGI is getting close to the threshold that would lower the maximum amount we can contribute to our roth iras this year. For context, my husband and I both maxed out are roth iras last year and have also already paid sixty five hundred dollars each to max them out this year. So since we're expecting to make more than the max AGI next year, I have two concerns. One, is I already have that money for my twenty twenty three roth ira invest it into a target date fund with Vanguard. How do I avoid being penalized for over contributing if we cross the AGI threshold. Secondly, I'd love to hear your thoughts on whether it would be better for us to avoid crossing the threshold by lowering our AGI, maybe through increasing our four oh one K contributions or HSA contributions which I just signed up for by the way, thanks for that tip, or is it better to take advantage of something like a backdoor roth ira. I highly value your guys's opinions, so I'm really looking forward to hearing your take. Thanks for all you guys do. It's truly life changing. And by the way, if you ever come across Beers from Evergrain or Hidden River. Those are by far the best two breweries in our area, especially for hazy IPAs. 00:30:58 Speaker 2: Cheers all right, Rihanna, thank you so much for the kind words. 00:31:00 Speaker 1: And and by the way, if you're listening and you haven't signed up for the how to Money newsletter, the best newsletter in the history of personal finance newsletters, what's your problem? 00:31:08 Speaker 2: What are you doing? You go to a hotta money dot com slash newsletter? That happens. Thanks for those brewery recommendations as well. Yeah, or Grain, We'll always take that Hidden River. And by the way, do you think they've got a ranch next to Hidden Valley? Hidden Mealley Ranch? I pa? Or well? I mean if they don't, they are totally missing out on a great marketing opportunity. 00:31:28 Speaker 1: I don't think by the way, Rhanna was trying to make a dig on the Amish. But there's lots of love about the Amish, So I just want to state that clearly right now. There's a lot for like, there's a lot of lessons we could learn and how they live. 00:31:38 Speaker 2: Why are you hating? No? I mean kind of like what we're talking about going back to like the custodian or the janitor who works their entire life. There's something to be said about finding contentment and happiness when in a simpler life as opposed to all the pop culture and new technology and the things that we think we need like Tesla's electric vehicles tum iPhone of the things I think I need that are going to make me happy. 00:32:01 Speaker 1: I know, yeah no, and oftentimes they make us more miserable. But onto the money question, what's the best way forward when you get close to that roth ira income threshold? That's kind of the basic of what Brehanna is asking about, and so let's talk about how that works. And honestly, it's just a bad setup in our opinion. There are already strict income limits when it comes to being able to contribute to a roth at all, and plus a massive number of folks have access to a roth ORL and K at work, So why not just give everyone access to a roth ira no matter how much they make? Like, why does this have to be as complex? 00:32:35 Speaker 4: Right? Four? 00:32:35 Speaker 1: Okay, with no income limitations regardless, So why does the roth ira have to have one? Especially when the income limit, the contribution limit is is so much smaller. Just let anybody contribute, like irs. Come on, Congress, let's do something about this. But the roth IRA income limits are two hundred and twenty eight thousand dollars for married folks filing jointly this year and one hundred and fifty three thousand and four single filers in twenty twenty three, and more than that. You probably shouldn't be mad about missing out on the roth You should be pumped that you're crushing it in your career. But it's important to know those limits because then it means you're no longer eligible. 00:33:11 Speaker 2: That's true, right, Yeah, I love too how it sounds like that they like they might be taking my approach where they're saving the previous year for next year's contributions. Right, so instead of setting aside monthly amounts for investing where your dollar cost averaging, setting aside that month that money, storing it up, creating a little stockpile, a little treasure chest, like a little war chest, and then when January hits boom, you have the ability to deploy it. That's what it sounds like, which I love Vianna and her husband are doing. You are making that a priority. Future you will be thankful, but you might have some more time to funnel at least some of those dollars into a roth IRA if you are strategic about it, and you mentioned some great possible solutions, and our favorite of the ones that you mentioned is to lower your overall AGI by contributing more money to those other tax advantage retirement accounts. Where you to do that, you're going to come out ahead. It's a win win sort of situation because you get to continue putting dollars within that roth IRA that gives you that ultimate maximum flexibility, but you're also investing more overall, and you're able to do it in two of our other favorite tax advantage accounts you mentioned the four one K, you mentioned the HSA, which is the ultimate tax advantaged account, And so as long as your income is within spitting distance, those minor tweaks, those manipulations can keep you on the good side of being able to access a ROTH. Yep. 00:34:31 Speaker 1: I love that too, because it's like, hey, what if I just invest more that allows me to then invest more in the ROTH. It's like uh huh, yep, Okay, you have our attend that sounds good. That sounds good us and it's not just sixty nie hundred bucks, but it's sixty five hundred bucks times too. Because Rihanna is married and her husband, it's two roth accounts then that are able to be maxed out, which and the reality is, given the trajectory of their income, they might not be able to do it for a ton more years. So trying to max those out while the sun shining, while making hay while the sunshines make sense. 00:35:04 Speaker 2: And so although there's a lot of leeway, there's a lot more room within a four to one K. True, just to say how much money that they're salking away towards their four owing k is but I mean there could be an additional twenty five thousand dollars easily that they can suck into their four one k. 00:35:16 Speaker 1: Which could mean that maybe there's a number of years they have left to contribute to a roth hiray. 00:35:19 Speaker 2: It it just depends, yes, And let's. 00:35:21 Speaker 1: Mention this that unwinding contributions to a roth iray it's not a terribly fun procedure. So it's best not to contribute too much to begin with, if you can help it. And so if it looks like you're definitely gonna make quite a bit more, which is not a bad thing. Again, but let's say, oh, man, instantaneous fifteen percent rays in the beginning of twenty twenty four, which is going to kick you out of roth IRA contribution eligibility even with those additional pretax contributions you're considering making. Take a different route. And by the way, you can always wait until you get your income statements the following year, your W two's or whatever to contribute if you aren't sure if you qualify but don't want to unwind. So, Matt, you were saying, do it you know, day one in the new year, which I love that approach if you know you're going to qualify, but if you instead keep that cash on hand in savings and sticking in the following year once you know you qualify, if you're concerned about whether or not you're going to that can make sense too. That can be a good way to do it, just so you're not. 00:36:15 Speaker 2: It's the way to keep things simple, exactly sure, and yeah, it keeps things from getting super hairy, and it allows you to know without a doubt that what you're doing isn't something that you're going to have to recharacterize, which involves a whole lot of math where you're trying to figure out the taxes on what it is that you earned, but not the amount that Yeah, it just gets a little bit hairy. It's annoying. But like, what I don't like about sitting on that money is the fact that you're missing out on the potential gains for that entire year because on average, the stock market goes up more often than it goes down, basically three out of four years, right, Yeah, which means that you could be missing out or like you know, the S and P, Like you're looking at eight ten percent if you're not counting inflation, but at least you're in a five percent highld tavy's account now, and that, honestly, that's the biggest It softens the blow a little bit. It saves the day because instead of thinking, oh, on this is not on six hundred plus dollars on maxing out my wroth IRA, if you're thinking about ten percent, it's like, well, actually it's you can kind of have that because you're guaranteed at least five percent because that money is sitting there within a HIGHYI old savings account. And plus you've got the flexibility too off having that money there and if something comes along it's pretty nice to know that that's not money that you have to then with take out of a wroth. We talk about the contributions you make to a roth in the ability that you can draw on those contributions, but were you to do that, you can't put that money back in that same year, right, Like, let's say you've got a very dynamic financial situation. But if that money is just sitting there in cash, well you've never made a contribution, which means, oh, well you've never withdrawn this contributions, meaning that or you to save that money back up again. Yes, in fact, you would be able to contribute to your wrath for that year. And is that confusing? Okay? And I would say this cash equals of flexibility is what I'm saying. 00:37:57 Speaker 1: And you just have to make sure that you don't just hiw to spend it instead of invest it. But that doesn't sound like that's a problem, not for them, for Brienna, and yeah, for their family. So the other I think you can get into the weeds. There's a whole lot we could talk about when it comes to different ways to get to get access to wrath money, ways to even enhance your ability to funnel money into a WROTH account. But when we're talking again, I go back to that basic solution, simplest is almost always best, is Yeah, just funnel more into the pre tax accounts like the HSA and the traditional foral one K, leaving you open to continue to contribute to those roth iras for hopefully years to come, or maybe not hopefully years to come because maybe your income gross signima. That's what I'm rooting for, actually, Matt, But at least for the time being, that's what you can do. 00:38:45 Speaker 2: Absolutely, and if you overly obsessed, I think with some of these different maximizing strategies, I think it can keep your sites from focusing on the things that are truly going to be able to move the needle in a much bigger way, whether that's, oh, man, we can use this money now to improve our community, or oh we could use this the start of business just some of the different other goals that you might have, or. 00:39:06 Speaker 1: Build nay you in the backyard and start being a real semester. 00:39:09 Speaker 2: Yes, Like, there are so many different paths you can take, and that's what's it's kind of going back to what we're saying about the advice that maybe more of our mindset and how it is we thought about being frugal in the early years of the show, but your priority is and your goals change over time. And just because right now, Rihanna, or maybe over the past few years you have been investing at a particular clip, that doesn't necessarily mean that that's what you're going to continue to do moving forward, because you might have an awakening. Maybe yeah, you and your husband become enlightened and all of a sudden you're you're like, oh, we're gonna give all of our money away. I don't know what it is. If that happens, please reach back out and tell us how to get there. Uh, but Rihanna, we hope that gets y'all pointed in the right direction. And yes, do let it. I thought you were gonna tell her to reach out and send her have her send money or a way. Hey, she does that enlightenment too, Matt. She does that. We'll start some sort of foundation she can further the how the money calls. That's good, but we've got more to get to, including we're going to discuss whether or not FSAs, whether they make a ton of sense, whether or not they're worth it. We'll get to that plus more right after this. 00:40:19 Speaker 1: Hard man let's keep going in his open enrollment season. So we do need to talk about FSAs because it's how much do I contribute to my FSA is a question on a lot of people's mind. We'll get to that in one second, but first, let's take one about closing. 00:40:30 Speaker 2: A bank account. 00:40:31 Speaker 4: Hello, this is Molly from Indianapolis, Indiana, a long time listener. I've taken your advice to dump the big bank in favor of an online bank. I was planning to close my big bank account and then I sell my credit report. It's the banks that I've had since I was a teenager. If I close my twenty year longest open account, will that damage my credit score? 00:40:51 Speaker 2: All right, Molly's talking about dishing her big old bank. This is something we are all about. Molly. Of course, not only do the big banks not their customer as well, but they also don't offer competitive products and rates, despite basically every other financial institution out there raising rates on their savings and their CDs pretty significantly over the past year. So the big banks they've opted to largely stay put, and in an era of higher inflation, none of us can afford to have our savings sitting completely idle like that, going from what it is a big bank is offering, like typically you're looking at like I think point one two point oh four percent to the five plus range is going to be a massive one, especially if you're the amount that you've got set aside in your emergency fund is pretty large. If you're sitting on three to six months worth of living expenses. The ability for you to earn a solid five percent on that is what we want to see folks doing. 00:41:45 Speaker 1: Matt, you remember that song, I don't want no scrubs. I don't want no big banks. Okay, that's what I don't want. And so I just like that Molly's asking this question. I don't want her to have any big banks in her life either. No scrubs, no big banks. So when it comes to your question, the long and the the short of it is, basically the answer is no. We talked about some of the annoyances of the credit score industry in the past Friday Flight. Actually we talked about the big banks sucking too, because that's a repeat leame here on how to money, But your bank account and how long you've had it has nothing to do with that all important three digit score. You mentioned that you looked at your credit reports, and I wonder if you also have maybe a credit card from your big bank or something like that, because your actual savings or checking account, right, you know, maybe one that you've had even for decades, it doesn't get reported to the credit bureaus. So I would say, look over that credit report again and see. But typically those accounts don't get reported to the bureaus because they don't really have anything to do with the makeup of your credit score. 00:42:44 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. The length of your credit history that has a real impact on your overall credit score. That is why we typically don't advise that folks close a credit card that they've had for a long time. It's better to just use it rarely, hang on to that thing, use it rarely, and then pay off the balance on time, and there's just rarely a need to ditch it all together. I would I guess if it's a card that you're not taking full advantage of and they have an annual fee, that's a good reason actually to ditch it. 00:43:09 Speaker 1: Well, but even then you can call up the credit card issuer and maybe get them to engage you to a card that doesn't have an annual fee, and you get to keep the credit history, and the same time you. 00:43:16 Speaker 2: Can get away. Perhaps, but you should feel free to move on and open a superior bank account with another bank, because there's no connection between that savings account, that bank account, and your credit score. And it's easier to switch banks than the most Most folks actually think it's not easy necessarily, but we do think it's worth it, and like we've mentioned recently, hopefully it'll get even easier in the future, where there are some standards that allow for folks to quickly migrate from one bank to the other. Woun't be nice, even though the banks they've got zero reason to actually want to be able to provide that service for their customers. They want to. 00:43:49 Speaker 1: They just want to make it just a little more annoying, a little more painstaking. And if we can, if we can just implement some rules that make it simpler for individuals to do that so they don't have to spend like a weekend and and the subsequent weeks ensuring that everything gets transferred properly, that would be a big help. I think people would be more likely it would grease the wheels of that decision. And it's probably important to mention that the only way switching banks can negatively impact your credit is if you were to close the account your bank account with a negative balance, right, or if you don't maybe switch over any of those auto payments, then one of the payments doesn't get made and so boom. Then that non payment or late payment impacts your credit score. So like that is what's going to get reported to the bureaus, not the actual closure of the account itself. So that's the biggest risk here. Make sure to switch those automatic transactions like a credit card payment or a mortgage payment from the old bank to the new one before you close the account all the way. But other than that should be no harm, no foul, no problem, and your credit score should be none the wiser. 00:44:47 Speaker 2: That's right. And Molly didn't say specifically where it was that she was getting her credit report, but make sure that you are going to annual credit report dot com, not like free credit report dot Com, which I'm pretty sure it sounds like something that you should be hitting up right. No, I think they're associated with experience. Yeah, I was gonna probably run by one of the bureaus. One of the bureaus. They're probably trying to charge you, charge you, but you can get for free. So Annual Credit Report dot Com is where you can go not only annually but weekly right now, yeah, ever since the pandemic. 00:45:18 Speaker 1: And that is a federally guaranteed free credit report. So a lot of people might say, oh, I'll just go to the bureaus themselves. No, no, no, go to the website. It's been set up by the federal government to give you access to your credit report for free. 00:45:28 Speaker 2: They should change it to weekly Credit Report dot com. But I don't actually know who's on who has that R. We should buy it, and we should just forge people to Annual Credit report dot com if it's available. We'll do that for ten dollars or less. I will do that's right after we finished recording and check out Go Daddy or wherever you buy fine domain names. All right, it is time for our Facebook question of the Week. This one's from Katie and she says it's open enrollment time and my employer offers a flexible spending account for healthcare. Well it sounds well, it sounds similar to a hell savings account. It is very different in that there's a limited rollover and no investment option. That's right. I can contribute up to thirty five hundred dollars a year, but those funds can only be used for health care costs incurred in the calendar year and claims must be submitted by April fifteenth the following year. There's a small amount six hundred dollars that can be rolled over, but other than that, any funds not used are forfeited. The only benefits I see to this type of account are that the funds come out of my paycheck pre tax and when lower my AGI. That is true, yep. The downside is having to keep track of the expenses and submit the claims and forfeiting money if we don't use it all. We had a bad medical year this year and we spent far more than thirty five hundred dollars out of pocket. My son had an unexpected surgery, but I'm not sure that would happen in a quote unquote normal year. Thoughts on this type of account, Let's talk about the flexible spending account well. 00:46:54 Speaker 1: As always in the hod of money. Facebook group, which if you're not a member of you should join because there's awesome folks in there helping each other out. It's one of the only same places on the Internet. I can vouch for that, And so there was a lot of good advice from fellow listeners fellow readers up on that Facebook post, on Katie's post. But we talk about HSA's pretty regularly. But but we don't talk as much about fessas. The reason we talk about HSA's with regularity is because there's such an underutilized resource when it comes to saving for retirement and avoiding as much tax as possible. They're actually quite flexible in a lot of ways too, Yah, because you can take those funds out two years later, twenty years later. 00:47:31 Speaker 2: It's really up to you two hundred years later. Yeah, if you're. 00:47:34 Speaker 1: Playing on living that long, you feel like one of those Silicon Valley You've been hacking your body type folks. You can do that. The most annoying part, though, is probably the receipt keeping that you got to do in order to maximize the value of that account. But Matt, we don't talk about fssays as much, and especially this time of year, we really should because they're an account that so many people have access to. They don't have the same long term retirement investment upside, but they do have some tax saving ability for a lot of people in basically the upcoming year. 00:48:03 Speaker 2: That's right. Yeah, So there are two types of fssays flexible spending accounts. There are the dependent care fessays and then the healthcare fessays. And the dependent care one is it's more of a slam dunk, even though you're avoiding income tax on the money that you funnel into either of these accounts. The reason we like the dependent care version more is because those expenses are honestly, they're just so much easier to predict, right, Like, you know that, all right, this is how much daycare is going to cost. 00:48:30 Speaker 1: You're not like, wait a second, I randomly we grab a four year old and now have to pay for their childcare costs. 00:48:34 Speaker 2: Usually you know that going into the year. Yeah, you're looking at the year. You know what your month monthly amount is going to be as opposed to some of the different medical needs. I guess that might arise during the year. Obviously, you can't do this like with one hundred percent accuracy, but if you got young kids, if you work full time, chances are you can max that out pretty easily given the cost of childcare these days. But with a healthcare fessay, if you have significant ongoing health care needs, then yes, you likely will be able to max out that FSA as well without having to fear that you're going to lose any of those dollars. But the problem that I think Katie finds herself in is that her and her family there's not a slam dunk on one side or the other, right, Like you're You're kind of in that messy middle where you kind of have to got to predict the future. Essentially, you got to forecast a little bit and try to determine whether or not this is going to make sense for you. 00:49:21 Speaker 1: Sure, and I would go to a palm reader, yeah, is what I would say, and say what I prefer, Tarot cards? Yeah, yeah, yeah, either way, whatever your preference. Bring all your family members and have them read your future so that they can determine what your health care costs are going to be next year. But it's really hard to figure out how much to contribute. Matt, you mentioned messi middle, and I think that's a good way to describe it. And Katie highlighted a lot of the problems with FSA accounts in general. In her post, right they use it or lose it. Nature can cause people to avoid these accounts altogether because they're like, I don't want to stick money in that. I'm actually just funneling down the toilet. Because there's a certain amount six hundred bucks ish that you can roll over every single year, which which means that putting in it that amount makes a lot of sense, especially especially given the list of items that qualify as FSA expenses, which is an important thing to mention, tampon, sunscreen, vitamins, over the counter medications. Look at the list of things that qualify because it is a wide list, and so make sure that you're filing those reimbursements to get essentially those purchases tax free. And Katie highlighted the annoyance also of tracking and submitting. She's not wrong, but that part is also true of hsas. 00:50:26 Speaker 2: But I guess the. 00:50:27 Speaker 1: Reality is that to get the tax benefit, you got to follow the arcane rules. And some employers though even offer like an FSA specific debit card, so instead of having to submit for all that stuff too, you just make the purchase, whether you're paying at the doctor's office, or whether you're at FSA store dot Com or Amazon's FSA store, or you're literally at Walgreens or whatever, using that debit card to make the purchase is one way that it at least takes some of the paperworkout. I'm sure if your employer offers that, but it's worth asking. 00:50:52 Speaker 2: Totally, Katie. I think our ultimate advice would be the tread Ford conservatively, because it sounds like the major reason that you had higher medical expenses last year was to be more of a fluke accident, and so avoiding tax for healthcare expenses is a great thing to shoot for. But we don't want you to be so focused on avoiding taxation on your income that you potentially lose those dollars or have to buy a bunch of some of you know, those raindom items at the end of the year to ensure that it doesn't just vanish. Well, I guess then you could give away sunscreen for Halloween next year. You can always do that. But by the way, this is a good reminder though, for folks who do have a healthcare FSA to go ahead and look at their accounts right now. Maybe this is something that you forgot was accruing dollars that this is something that you were applying money towards and you've got to balance there. And if you've got money that's not going to roll over for next year, make sure you get your hands on actual goods that you can roll over, yeah, physically to next year. Good for you for being healthy as an ox, But find a way to utilize those dollars. Know that you can roll over some of them, or at least check your employers' guidelines. But then do something, you know, use use those FSA dollars so you don't lose them. Absolutely right, Let's get back to the beer. Yeah, the blood orange double wit biponder donated to the show by Bob. What we your thoughts on this one? All right? 00:52:03 Speaker 1: So this was a healthy dose of blood orange, and this is a double wit, not just a wit. So it felt extra intense. I almost like could taste the alcohol in it. 00:52:12 Speaker 2: I don't know if you really that same thing. Yeah, normally isn't a great thing. 00:52:16 Speaker 1: Yeah, And honestly it felt a bit abrasive to me, it felt, but I at least it had a strong blood orange presence, which is actually one one of my favorite fruits to. 00:52:24 Speaker 2: Put in a beer, I. 00:52:26 Speaker 1: Second probably to raspberries and strawberries, but blood orange. 00:52:29 Speaker 2: Is always a good addition to beer. When it comes to blood orange, I think I just have a hard time not thinking that I'm tasting my busted lip, you know, just because it says blood orange in it. It's hard to get past the marketing and the language of hey, blood orange, and it tastes like I'm sucking on pennies or nickels. But I totally agree with what you're saying. With this being a double wit. It packed a little more punch and it kind of had like a like Belgian strong ale sort of vibes going on. But it certainly you had some fruity notes in a dish to the blood orange, Like I felt like I was picking up on some of those banana esters as well. But some fruity this going on certainly was enjoyable. And we are incredibly thankful for you, Bob for sending this one our way. 00:53:10 Speaker 1: Appreciate you, Bob. Yeah, all right, math, that's gonna do it for this episode. We'll have show notes and links to some of the things we mentioned in this episode up on our website at Howdymoney dot com yes right buddy. 00:53:21 Speaker 2: So until next time, best friends out, best friends out,