1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,480 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mob Never told you. From how Supports 2 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen 3 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:19,040 Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline, And today we are revisiting a topic 4 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:22,480 Speaker 1: that we talked about in two thousand eleven, but we 5 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:25,920 Speaker 1: absolutely need to talk about it again because there are 6 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:30,280 Speaker 1: lots of conversations going on these days about cat calling 7 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:34,959 Speaker 1: and street harassment. Yeah, because I'm sure you guys are 8 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:38,960 Speaker 1: familiar with the Hollaback video that just came out not 9 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 1: too long ago, featuring a woman she's an actress, walking 10 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 1: through the streets of New York for ten hours and 11 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 1: facing numerous cat calls and street harassment from men on 12 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 1: the street. The video itself attracted a lot of controversy 13 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:57,320 Speaker 1: because of the way it was edited to edit out 14 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: a lot of white men who were doing calling in 15 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:04,920 Speaker 1: various street harassment things um to feature mostly men of color. 16 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:10,039 Speaker 1: But that being said, the video itself sparked a huge 17 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:14,760 Speaker 1: conversation online between and among men and women about what 18 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 1: if street harassment? When is it just complimenting, when is 19 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:22,479 Speaker 1: it something scary? And what does it mean for all 20 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:26,959 Speaker 1: of us at large? Yeah, and speaking of Hallaback, which 21 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 1: is the nonprofit that UM produced that viral video. We 22 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 1: first talked about street harassment on the podcast when Halliback 23 00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 1: was first gaining a lot of media attention. UM it 24 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 1: was founded in two thousand five by Emily May and 25 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 1: it was started specifically to attract more attention to the 26 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 1: issue of street harassment and to facilitate bigger conversations about 27 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 1: the frequency of street harassment and how it very much 28 00:01:56,760 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 1: is harassment and also give people tools to fight back 29 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:05,160 Speaker 1: and also connect with other people on this issue. And 30 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 1: the fact that pretty much any time a woman says gender, 31 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 1: transgender and gay men as well leave their houses and 32 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:15,840 Speaker 1: walk down the sidewalk a lot of times that means 33 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 1: dealing with what we youphemistically call cat calling. And seeing 34 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:25,079 Speaker 1: to that viral video as well, I mean, the response 35 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:28,960 Speaker 1: to it just highlighted problems on top of problems. For 36 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 1: the very fact that Shoshana Roberts, who is the actress Senate, 37 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:37,640 Speaker 1: immediately received rape threats. She has alerted the police in 38 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:40,359 Speaker 1: the neighborhood she lives in that this is what's going on. 39 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:43,960 Speaker 1: These are the threats she's received, so in case something happens, 40 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 1: they'll know who she is when she calls. Yeah, and 41 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 1: to me that's I mean, not to get off on 42 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 1: a tangent, but there's echoes of what's happening with the 43 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:55,760 Speaker 1: nat of Sarkese in there too, in terms of like, 44 00:02:56,440 --> 00:03:00,040 Speaker 1: so you you call out a problem, people saying no, 45 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:02,679 Speaker 1: it's not a problem, but I'm going to threaten to 46 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:05,880 Speaker 1: kill you or rape or a rape. Yeah, exactly. And 47 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 1: so another issue of course with things that this video 48 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:13,960 Speaker 1: sort of dug up is the fact that a lot 49 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 1: of people's response to it is just women, this is 50 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:21,359 Speaker 1: your problem. I'm just trying to give you a compliment. 51 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 1: You're playing the victim role. You just want to be 52 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:28,959 Speaker 1: the victim. You just want attention, and you know, making 53 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 1: it more about the woman and it being her problem 54 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:33,720 Speaker 1: than it being a social problem at large. Yeah, it's 55 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 1: just a compliment. Learn how to take a compliment. Um. 56 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 1: And if you're curious on the difference between cat calls 57 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 1: and compliments, you can go to stuff I've Never Told 58 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 1: Us YouTube page and watch the video if cat calls 59 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 1: for compliments, in which you'll get a lot of examples 60 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 1: of the differences between the two. So first up, though, 61 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 1: let's define street harassment and also offer some statistics that 62 00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 1: we can get a grasp of how often this is happening. 63 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 1: This is not just something happening to Shoshana Roberts when 64 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:07,760 Speaker 1: she is making a video for Hollow Back. So street harassment, 65 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 1: to define it is the sexual harassment of typically sis 66 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 1: and trans women in public spaces by typically men who 67 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:22,159 Speaker 1: are strangers, and that includes both verbal and nonverbal behavior. 68 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 1: It tends to be comments on the woman's physique and 69 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:28,719 Speaker 1: her very presence in public A lot of the time. 70 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 1: It also has to do with smiling. Hey, woman over there, smile, smile. 71 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 1: Want to see you smile? So how common is it? 72 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:40,080 Speaker 1: There was a naturally representative study sponsored by Stop Street 73 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 1: Harassment which found that six of all women and of 74 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:51,240 Speaker 1: all men had experienced it, and among the women had 75 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:55,360 Speaker 1: been sexually touched, had been followed, and nine percent had 76 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 1: been forced to do something sexual. I think that is 77 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 1: a different way of saying sexual assault. UM. LGBT identified 78 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 1: respondents were also likelier to experience it. One statistic they 79 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:10,440 Speaker 1: highlighted was it by age seventeen, seventy percent of LGBT 80 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 1: individuals experienced street harassment compared to of heterosexual people. And 81 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 1: it also happens around the world. Yeah. Um, the site 82 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 1: Medium got into this by assigning diaries essentially to women 83 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:32,120 Speaker 1: in cities all around the world, in New York, San Francisco, 84 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:36,719 Speaker 1: Los Angeles, Mexico City, Berlin in Italy, in Mongolia, in 85 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 1: tel Aviv, Nairobi, and Singapore um and based on these 86 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 1: women's experiences, they found that the woman in Mexico City 87 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 1: experienced the worst cat calling. She had a high of 88 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 1: twenty nine cat calls in a single week, versus Tel 89 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 1: Aviv and Los Angeles, which tied for the least cat 90 00:05:57,040 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 1: call heavy locations, which just to each and there were 91 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:04,720 Speaker 1: a lot of common hallmarks for this kind of behavior. UM. 92 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:08,279 Speaker 1: It tended to happen most often during commute time, specifically 93 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 1: when women were alone, although men doing the cat calling, 94 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:16,480 Speaker 1: we're just as likely to be alone as with other 95 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:22,320 Speaker 1: men UM and the most common form of it just 96 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:25,120 Speaker 1: commanded a smile. They just want to see a smil 97 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:28,840 Speaker 1: carel line. Yeah. I used to get this um all 98 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:32,280 Speaker 1: the time when I took public transportation to work. Not 99 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:34,680 Speaker 1: that I would not continue too, It's just I moved 100 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:36,160 Speaker 1: and blah blah blah. I just don't want you to 101 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 1: think poorly of me. I wish I could take it anyway, UM, yeah, 102 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 1: I used to get this all the time. And what 103 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 1: was so weird is I never got it from a 104 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:49,000 Speaker 1: man in a business suit. I always got it from 105 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 1: homeless men who were hanging out at the train station. 106 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 1: I mean that's my personal experience. I know everyone has 107 00:06:55,520 --> 00:07:00,279 Speaker 1: different experiences, but and speaking to that experience, some people 108 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 1: have talked about the socioeconomic intersections with this, because it's 109 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:12,240 Speaker 1: a lot about not compliments obviously, but it has a 110 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:15,679 Speaker 1: lot to do with power and power over public spaces 111 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 1: and cat calling and street harassment. I should say, is 112 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 1: often used as a tool by people who might feel 113 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 1: more economically and socially marginalized to assert their power. And so, 114 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 1: in speaking to the BBC about why some men do this, 115 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 1: Katherine Zipple, who is a sociology professor at Northeastern University, 116 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 1: said quote, oftentimes it's not really about the women. It's 117 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 1: just about the men performing masculine acts for each other 118 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 1: and establishing a pecking order amongst themselves. What's really going 119 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 1: on is the dynamic among men, and in that it's 120 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 1: so it's so crucial to discoverse Asian to understanding it 121 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 1: that this is the dynamic among men that's happening in 122 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 1: public spaces, right because, and I mean this goes back 123 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:13,559 Speaker 1: forever as far as the conflict that occurs and has 124 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 1: always occurred when women enter a public sphere. I mean, 125 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 1: this is not cat calling and street harassment is not 126 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 1: a new conversation. Kristen and I read one article that 127 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:26,120 Speaker 1: was like, oh, this is a problem that goes all 128 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 1: the way back to the nineties seventies, and it definitely 129 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 1: has roots much much deeper, and that go back much 130 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 1: much farther when women first left the home to begin with. 131 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:41,680 Speaker 1: Exactly pretty much as soon as we began entering the 132 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 1: public sphere on a day to day basis, this issue arose. 133 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 1: And a lot of this information is coming from a 134 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 1: sealf Freedman, who is a scholar in Stanford's Claimant Institute 135 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:54,960 Speaker 1: for Gender Research, and she also wrote the book Redefining Rape, 136 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:58,880 Speaker 1: And just speaking of some etymology when it comes to 137 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 1: cat calling, I thought was really interesting. The term comes 138 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 1: from theater. It goes back to the mid seventeenth century, 139 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 1: a combination of cat and call, originally denoting a kind 140 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 1: of whistle or squeaking instrument used to express disapproval. Now, 141 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:20,720 Speaker 1: when we get into street harassment, in the nineteenth century 142 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:23,960 Speaker 1: and into the early twentieth century, it went by a 143 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 1: different name. It wasn't so much cat calling but mashing 144 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 1: and the masher, both of which also have theatrical roots. Yeah, this, 145 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:37,240 Speaker 1: Kristen and I got so caught up in this reading 146 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 1: about the masters. It is fascinating stuff and it is 147 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 1: just further proof that the harassment of women in public 148 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:47,880 Speaker 1: spaces is definitely not a new thing. So the term 149 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:52,079 Speaker 1: mash comes from nineteenth century theater slang meaning a sweetheart 150 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 1: or a crush, typically of a male audience member on 151 00:09:56,440 --> 00:10:01,040 Speaker 1: a female actress, and for example, an teen eight two 152 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:04,960 Speaker 1: a theater guide to find mashers as quote masculine theatergoers 153 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:09,760 Speaker 1: whose wild ambition is to attract and hold female attention. Now, 154 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:13,960 Speaker 1: the first time I heard about mashing was actually um 155 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:17,040 Speaker 1: in reading about sort of cultural history of female friendship. 156 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 1: And around this same time too, you would describe having 157 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:27,079 Speaker 1: intensely strong, like platonically passionate feelings for a girlfriend as 158 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:30,320 Speaker 1: a smash, and they would also they would exchange these 159 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 1: um mash notes to each other. But outside of that 160 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 1: realm and outside the theater world, mashers became known in 161 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:43,960 Speaker 1: the late nineteenth and early twentieth century as the aggressive 162 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:50,000 Speaker 1: male street flirt who quote were usually depicted in newspapers 163 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:54,959 Speaker 1: and editorial cartoons as well dressed white men whose behaviors 164 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 1: were more irritating and comical than menacing. And they were 165 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:03,200 Speaker 1: also men who viewed themselves as lady killers along the 166 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 1: lines of a Don Juan and other Natalie dressed gentlemen, 167 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:10,560 Speaker 1: because that was another thing. They were often very very 168 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:14,080 Speaker 1: snappy dressers. Um. And there was also the Parisian version 169 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:18,320 Speaker 1: of the flneur, which is the detached male spectator of 170 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 1: the urban crowd. Yeah, basically men whose quote unquote job 171 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:27,840 Speaker 1: it is to stand around and just watch women and 172 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:30,520 Speaker 1: provide their commentary as if they are at the theater, 173 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 1: and also attract their attention through their through their fashionable 174 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:38,960 Speaker 1: clothes like Dandy's. And I think it's key to note 175 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:43,200 Speaker 1: though that in popular culture at the time, like those 176 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:47,560 Speaker 1: editorial cartoons that Kristen mentioned, it is important to mention 177 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:50,840 Speaker 1: that they were depicted as white. That's key because these 178 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 1: are snappily dressed gentlemen. They're they're mostly harmless ladies. They're 179 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 1: just they're just offering you a quirky kind of compliment. 180 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 1: Are just kind of annoying. It's no big deal because 181 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:07,880 Speaker 1: at the time, the perception of black men interacting with 182 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 1: society white society ladies was painted in an entirely different 183 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:16,439 Speaker 1: picture at the time, of course, like even black men 184 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:19,200 Speaker 1: making direct eye contact with a white woman would have 185 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 1: been considered outright sexual assault. And so when you code 186 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 1: non violent mashers as white it says a lot about 187 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:32,199 Speaker 1: sort of racial divisions at the time. Yeah, because um, 188 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:37,080 Speaker 1: really it was age of consent campaigns and these antimash 189 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 1: or initiatives that were mostly focused to white men, whereas 190 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:48,079 Speaker 1: black men were considered violent sexual creatures, they were the rapists. 191 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:51,199 Speaker 1: White men were only to be feared for perhaps whisking 192 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 1: away young woman who was too young to consent or 193 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:59,319 Speaker 1: doing this mashing, when in reality, Freedman talks about it 194 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 1: was native born white men because new immigrants to the 195 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:06,720 Speaker 1: country were also lumped into this as well and considered 196 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:10,720 Speaker 1: more deviant and more of a danger to um white 197 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:14,720 Speaker 1: American women, whereas it was often the white men who 198 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 1: were the worst when it came to street harassment, since 199 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:21,560 Speaker 1: they claimed the streets as their territory. Which does that 200 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 1: sound familiar, Yeah, exactly, And so I mean what's going 201 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 1: on here the social context that we're talking about, Like 202 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:31,960 Speaker 1: Kristen said, I mean, here are white men who have 203 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 1: you know, quote unquote been in charge. Then you have 204 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:39,240 Speaker 1: this influx of women who have always been at the home, immigrants, 205 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 1: where did they even come from? And people just have 206 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 1: other classes and backgrounds. So suddenly white, these white men 207 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:49,480 Speaker 1: that were talking about these matters are having to assert 208 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 1: their perceived dominance over everyone around them all of a sudden, 209 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 1: for the first time in these urban spaces, you have gender, class, 210 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 1: and ray all interacting and encountering one another in new 211 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:06,400 Speaker 1: ways for the very first time. And along with this, 212 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:08,720 Speaker 1: not only do you just have generally women entering the 213 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:12,320 Speaker 1: public sphere, but you also have the rise of department stores, 214 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:15,440 Speaker 1: this whole consumer culture that would get wealthy women out 215 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:17,960 Speaker 1: of their homes to go shopping. But also you have 216 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 1: female clerks who would be working at the department stores 217 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 1: and other jobs being opened, those low level clerical jobs 218 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 1: being open more and more to women. And so meanwhile 219 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 1: you have mashing sort of being placed on the more 220 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 1: benign and of the sexual assault spectrum at the time 221 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 1: because it was less criticized and say underage sex and 222 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 1: coercive seduction, but nonetheless received national press attention right as 223 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 1: can be seen in the nineteen six Chicago Tribune headline 224 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 1: what can be done to rid the Palmer House block 225 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:56,720 Speaker 1: of mashers? And I mean this was, this was There 226 00:14:56,760 --> 00:15:02,840 Speaker 1: was a lot of editorial space dedicated to drawing attention 227 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 1: to these, you know, men who stood on street corners 228 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:08,920 Speaker 1: and hollered at women and made it difficult for them 229 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:12,479 Speaker 1: to enter and exit their buildings. Well in women's magazines 230 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 1: also started advising lady readers to avoid eye contact with 231 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:19,320 Speaker 1: men on the street and from doing anything to call 232 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 1: attention to themselves, which also sounds awfully familiar to advice 233 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 1: that we still here as women today. Um. And there 234 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 1: was a nineteen o nine article in the New York Times, 235 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 1: um supposedly written by a working girl from Detroit, or 236 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:35,880 Speaker 1: maybe it was a letter to the editor, um, And 237 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:39,240 Speaker 1: it noted how she figured out that the blank looks 238 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:43,480 Speaker 1: on women's faces on the subways were their quote armor 239 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 1: against the offensive stairs of the New York masher. I 240 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 1: actually out loud when I read that, said, oh yeah, 241 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 1: oh yeah, oh yeah, because don't you don't you feel 242 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 1: your face go dead? Well, you kind of do put 243 00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:58,280 Speaker 1: on your armor sometimes when you when you know you're 244 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 1: about to go into a public space. I do it 245 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:05,960 Speaker 1: any time. I'd start as soon as I exit my driveway, 246 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:09,320 Speaker 1: when I'm jogging and hit the main thoroughfare, it's sort 247 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:11,680 Speaker 1: of like, all right, here we go and the music. 248 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:13,640 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm going to be completely honest here and 249 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:16,760 Speaker 1: say that I'm not putting on my dead face because 250 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:19,120 Speaker 1: I think I might encounter some annoying women on the 251 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:22,080 Speaker 1: train or some annoying women at the mall or wherever. 252 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 1: I'm putting on my dead face because I know that 253 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 1: if I make eye contact with a man in a 254 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 1: confined space, whether that's on a train, in an elevator, whatever, 255 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 1: I'm opening myself up to entering into an interaction that 256 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 1: I might not want to be a part of. Yeah, 257 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:38,800 Speaker 1: and we talked about how there was that Guardian article 258 00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 1: we saw that said women have been fighting against street 259 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 1: harassment since the nineteen seventies with the Reclaimed the Night movement, 260 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 1: but women really started hollying back in the United States 261 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 1: at least in the nineteen tens. And we're going to 262 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 1: talk about some of the ways that they started fighting 263 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:03,360 Speaker 1: back against them. Asher smashing, the masher when we come 264 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:08,960 Speaker 1: right back from a quick break and now back to 265 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:14,840 Speaker 1: the show. So picking up in the nineteen tens, when 266 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:22,359 Speaker 1: women start hollowing back, as Kristen said, um, they really 267 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:25,919 Speaker 1: were not going to stand for these distasteful mashers on 268 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 1: the street anymore, and they took matters into their own hands. Initially, however, 269 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:36,399 Speaker 1: the press had enlisted men to help protect women, but 270 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 1: women were like, no, listen, I'm busy fighting for the 271 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 1: vote and fighting for equal space and society, and I 272 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 1: want my greater mobility. I want my access to work 273 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 1: and LEAs your activities. I'm not going to let men 274 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:51,359 Speaker 1: interfere with my ability to give from point A to 275 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:55,200 Speaker 1: point B. And so I'm going to take boxing classes. 276 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 1: I'm going to take self defense classes, and as evidenced 277 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:01,960 Speaker 1: by a photo that I sound of a woman poking 278 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:05,560 Speaker 1: a man with her hatpen, I'm gonna learn how to 279 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:10,000 Speaker 1: defend myself in general. Yeah. In nineteen ten, the Women's 280 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:15,919 Speaker 1: Equal Suffrage Association sought to confront mashers or male flirts, 281 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 1: or as they called them, obnoxious all glows, and they 282 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 1: wanted to appoint special agents as female policemen to patrol 283 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 1: for mashers and This was actually how some of the 284 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:32,359 Speaker 1: very first female police officers were hired in the US. 285 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 1: I didn't know that. That's when my brain exploded, Carol, 286 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:38,680 Speaker 1: including one here in Atlanta. Yeah, but it was all 287 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:42,880 Speaker 1: because women really wanted other women to help guide them 288 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:46,240 Speaker 1: through the streets and keep their eyes peeled for the mashers. 289 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 1: But in the meantime, a number of women began taking 290 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 1: up exercise because this was also the early days of 291 00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:58,120 Speaker 1: physical exercise becoming part of you know, the the healthy 292 00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 1: person's regimen. But women also took boxing lessons to protect 293 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:08,920 Speaker 1: themselves against mashers. One Mrs Frank Gilbert in Cleveland took 294 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:13,159 Speaker 1: boxing lessons and ended up clocking a streetcar masher, and 295 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:15,720 Speaker 1: she told the press that she wanted to form a 296 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:21,480 Speaker 1: self defense quote Society for the Suppression and annihilation of mashers. 297 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:25,680 Speaker 1: Don't mess with Mrs Frank Gilbert. She's probably mad because 298 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:28,680 Speaker 1: no one even knows her first name. Well. And then, 299 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:31,960 Speaker 1: speaking again of hat pins, we get other stories of 300 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:38,240 Speaker 1: women and girls actively defending themselves against mashers. And these 301 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:42,960 Speaker 1: really were pressed darlings. These stories people loved reading about them, 302 00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:45,399 Speaker 1: and what was so great and what I think we 303 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 1: need more of today? If we're continuing themes today. The 304 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:52,679 Speaker 1: fact that the tone was respectful, it was admiring, it 305 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:55,399 Speaker 1: was supportive. That the general overall theme of these stories 306 00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:58,040 Speaker 1: was like, yeah, good for you. Women. Don't take that 307 00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 1: awful mashing from those full masters on the street corner. 308 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:06,160 Speaker 1: You need to defend yourself. And by nine around three 309 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:10,640 Speaker 1: hundred female police officers had been hired around the country 310 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:16,359 Speaker 1: at larger municipal police forces, specifically to deal with this 311 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 1: mash your problem. Which makes me realize that we have 312 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:22,920 Speaker 1: not done a podcast on women and police officers. But hey, 313 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 1: now we have our jumping off point for that. And 314 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:29,679 Speaker 1: I mean, speaking of legal issues, women who were victims 315 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:33,000 Speaker 1: of street harassment were strongly encouraged to prosecute their tormentors. 316 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:35,719 Speaker 1: There were a few brave souls who really stepped up 317 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 1: and said, no, I'm taking this guy to court, even 318 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:41,520 Speaker 1: though it could mean dragging your good name through the mud, 319 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:43,879 Speaker 1: even though people could perceive it as being some type 320 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:46,640 Speaker 1: of scandal, or you sort of speaking out of your 321 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:50,280 Speaker 1: feminine womanly turn. Um. There are just a lot of 322 00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 1: women at this time saying, look, you guys, you won't 323 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:55,560 Speaker 1: give me the vote. Well that was earlier, but I mean, 324 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:57,880 Speaker 1: I'm not going to stand up for this stuff anymore. Well, 325 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:04,160 Speaker 1: it was especially radical all for black women to prosecute 326 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:08,920 Speaker 1: men in court as well, because up to this point, 327 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:11,440 Speaker 1: I mean and still with this too. And we talked 328 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 1: about this in our episode on the history of rape 329 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 1: in the United States, how all of the focus on 330 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:23,000 Speaker 1: mashers was more concerned and really exclusively concerned over the 331 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:25,679 Speaker 1: safety of white women on the streets. Because this is 332 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:29,959 Speaker 1: when we have the prevailing idea that while sexual assault 333 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 1: can't really happen to black women because they're hyper sexualized 334 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 1: to begin with, and you also still have, you know, 335 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:39,720 Speaker 1: the construct of the black man as the violent rapists 336 00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 1: targeting white women. But there was a lot of conversation 337 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:49,479 Speaker 1: around street harassment in um, particularly in black newspapers, of 338 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:52,720 Speaker 1: women talking to other women about this, and so by 339 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:55,720 Speaker 1: the twenties you do start to see more black women too, 340 00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 1: getting more directly involved in this because can you imagine 341 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 1: at the time time being a black woman bringing a 342 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:07,040 Speaker 1: charge and a master charge against a white man. That 343 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 1: would have been I mean, I'm sure that would have 344 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:13,720 Speaker 1: been scandalizing for some people. But then after women get 345 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 1: the vote with the nineteenth Amendment in and with the 346 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 1: end of World War One, we see the anti masher 347 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:24,399 Speaker 1: movement died down. I mean, it really reached this fever 348 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:31,560 Speaker 1: pitch and then fades away as if it never happened. Almost. Yeah, 349 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:34,000 Speaker 1: but it's I mean, the context of it fading away 350 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 1: is sort of ikey, because you lose that whole idea 351 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 1: of chivalrous masculinity and men enlisting men to help protect 352 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:48,600 Speaker 1: women from guys like that to the assertion of a 353 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:53,640 Speaker 1: more aggressive ideal of manhood. Around the same time that 354 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:59,680 Speaker 1: female flirtation becomes more popular and popularly depicted by actresses 355 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:04,879 Speaker 1: on Green Light Clara bou and so you get this sentiment, 356 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:09,879 Speaker 1: this this prevailing notion that things like cat calling and 357 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:15,960 Speaker 1: street harassment are almost just more comical and normalized because hey, 358 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:18,679 Speaker 1: they want to flirt with me. Yeah. It's almost the 359 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:21,760 Speaker 1: other side of the coin of we have the the 360 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:26,159 Speaker 1: emergence of the new woman. We have a sexuality starting 361 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:31,280 Speaker 1: to kind of become slightly more normalized in terms of 362 00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 1: women expressing it as well as men. And so with 363 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:38,440 Speaker 1: that though, it is that idea of well you want this, 364 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 1: don't you. So here you go like why why would 365 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:44,600 Speaker 1: it be strange at all? For me to comment on 366 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:47,400 Speaker 1: your body. If you're wearing clothes that are more revealing 367 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:50,400 Speaker 1: than ever before, and if you're wearing makeup like an 368 00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 1: actress on the screen and you are actively flirting with men, 369 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:58,119 Speaker 1: well then why are you? Why don't you want to 370 00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 1: be talked to and yelled at on the streets? And 371 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:04,680 Speaker 1: the self freedman sums up this this transition pretty well, 372 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 1: uh in Redefining rape, she writes, After the nineteen twenties, 373 00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:12,360 Speaker 1: the negotiation of urban space for the purposes of wage earning, shopping, 374 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 1: or flirtation increasingly took the form of individual resistance rather 375 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:20,119 Speaker 1: than a social movement. For a short period, however, the 376 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:25,159 Speaker 1: revolt against the masher provided a political response to sexual vulnerability. 377 00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:29,879 Speaker 1: Tributes to self defense, suffragious visions of police authority, the 378 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:33,200 Speaker 1: willingness of black women to report white men to authorities, 379 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:37,440 Speaker 1: and the reactions of black men all contested white men's 380 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:40,480 Speaker 1: sexual entitlements. And I mean, I think that goes back 381 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:42,720 Speaker 1: to what I was saying about how great it was 382 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:46,560 Speaker 1: that newspapers back then we're cheering women on for taking 383 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:49,840 Speaker 1: these men on. I mean, that's on the one hand, women, 384 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:52,320 Speaker 1: you shouldn't have to defend yourselves against these men. It 385 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:55,240 Speaker 1: shouldn't be happening. But the fact that they are being 386 00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:58,800 Speaker 1: vocal and active, physically active about standing up to these 387 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:01,639 Speaker 1: guys and ended up being cheered on for it, I mean, 388 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 1: I think that's an amazing thing. Well, and it's just 389 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,119 Speaker 1: so incredible to think and mind boggling to think about 390 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:13,960 Speaker 1: the fact that we've been literally fighting for freedom in 391 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 1: a public space for a century plus now, since we've 392 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:22,959 Speaker 1: been in a public space exactly. And so the question 393 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:27,800 Speaker 1: then is why why now this sort of twenty one 394 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:33,399 Speaker 1: century antimash er movement revival? UM. I think a lot 395 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:37,240 Speaker 1: of it has to do with feminism and technology, kind 396 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 1: of the the perfect intersection of those two things, because 397 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:44,919 Speaker 1: if you look in the nineties seventies, Second Way feminists 398 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:48,920 Speaker 1: absolutely focused on street harassment. They started the Reclaim the 399 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:52,520 Speaker 1: Night also known as Take Back the Night initiatives, UM, 400 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:56,000 Speaker 1: which again you have the focus on street harassment as 401 00:25:56,240 --> 00:26:00,199 Speaker 1: more women entering the public and male dominated space is 402 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:03,560 Speaker 1: of women, you know, sort of the revived idea of hey, 403 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 1: we can go get jobs perhaps, um. But then again 404 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:11,200 Speaker 1: it sort of dies down a bit until two thousand five, 405 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:16,120 Speaker 1: when Emily May starts hollow Back, which really started, I mean, 406 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:21,080 Speaker 1: an incredible movement. Yeah, and this is it's such a 407 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:23,800 Speaker 1: product of its time in terms of being a digital thing. 408 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,800 Speaker 1: And you know, you go back to women who are 409 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:30,400 Speaker 1: taking boxing classes at the turn of the twentieth century 410 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:31,720 Speaker 1: and saying, I'm not going to put up with this. 411 00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:33,880 Speaker 1: I'm going to learn how to defend myself. And then 412 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:36,040 Speaker 1: you fast forward to the two thousands and you have 413 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:39,879 Speaker 1: women who are actually snapping cell phone pictures of the 414 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:42,880 Speaker 1: guys who are verbally attacking them, or in the case 415 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 1: of the woman who inspired hallyback efforts, she snapped a 416 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:48,760 Speaker 1: self one picture of a guy who was publicly masturbating 417 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:52,119 Speaker 1: while staring at her, which she was then able to 418 00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:56,240 Speaker 1: use successfully in his prosecution. Yeah, because while while cat 419 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:59,240 Speaker 1: calling is not illegal in New York City, it is 420 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:02,919 Speaker 1: in fact only will to masturbate in public just f 421 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:06,440 Speaker 1: y I UM. But by taking on street harassment from 422 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:10,679 Speaker 1: the social media approach, it has empowered men and women 423 00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 1: to identify and call out their harassers. And Emily May 424 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:19,080 Speaker 1: has talked before about how um the idea evolved to 425 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:23,359 Speaker 1: not just from uh, the that initial cell phone photo, 426 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 1: but also in conversations with guy friends of hers about 427 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 1: the experience of walking around, and one of them commenting, like, 428 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:37,120 Speaker 1: you walked down a completely different metaphorically speaking sidewalk than 429 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:41,600 Speaker 1: I do, just like they hadn't even realized before that 430 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:46,040 Speaker 1: experience of what street harassment feels like. And I think 431 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:49,920 Speaker 1: that's why a lot of times, in response to these conversations, 432 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:54,240 Speaker 1: the knee jerk deflection is it's just a compliment. Why 433 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:58,280 Speaker 1: are you victimizing yourself? But the fact that it typically 434 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:02,320 Speaker 1: happens when you are I selated, or possibly with other women. 435 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:05,320 Speaker 1: But I don't think I've ever gotten yelled at when 436 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:09,000 Speaker 1: I've been with a male friend or a boyfriend, or 437 00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:13,600 Speaker 1: a brother or a father whoever. Um, it's very specific 438 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:16,119 Speaker 1: in that kind of approach. It's intended to make you 439 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 1: feel vulnerable, right exactly, And I mean in terms of perspective. 440 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:23,159 Speaker 1: There was the one kind of social experiment that we 441 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:26,040 Speaker 1: read about where a woman dressed up like a man 442 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:27,879 Speaker 1: and a man dressed up like a woman, and they 443 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:30,639 Speaker 1: sent them on their way through the streets, and the 444 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:34,560 Speaker 1: woman felt reported that she felt such relief at being 445 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:37,440 Speaker 1: invisible for once, that just being able to freaking walk 446 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:39,840 Speaker 1: down the street from point A to point B. Whereas 447 00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 1: the man who was wearing fake breast and everything, I mean, 448 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:47,760 Speaker 1: he was dressed as a woman. Uh found himself putting 449 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:51,320 Speaker 1: on his jacket to avoid to try to deflect people 450 00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:55,240 Speaker 1: staring at him at his fake chest, um and wishing 451 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:57,320 Speaker 1: that he had more clothes on because he just felt 452 00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:00,280 Speaker 1: so gross being stared up. Well, and we heard um 453 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:03,680 Speaker 1: a gay guy not too long ago who wrote into 454 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:07,640 Speaker 1: us um because he has long hair, he tends to 455 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,360 Speaker 1: wear tighter jeans, and I believe we even read the 456 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:14,720 Speaker 1: letter on a podcast episode a while back. But he 457 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:17,760 Speaker 1: was walking down the street going home or going somewhere 458 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:22,360 Speaker 1: and was aggressively yelled at by a guy in a 459 00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 1: car who mistook him for a woman. And he said 460 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:29,240 Speaker 1: that he was so it was so terrifying because the 461 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:31,600 Speaker 1: person followed him for a little while and he finally 462 00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,360 Speaker 1: turned around and yelled back at him. But he had 463 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:38,480 Speaker 1: never experienced that before. And the following I don't know 464 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,840 Speaker 1: if you've experienced this before, Caroline, but um, I'll never 465 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:46,280 Speaker 1: forget being in Bushwick in New York once with a 466 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:50,640 Speaker 1: girlfriend of mine and we were walking somewhere and we 467 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:53,120 Speaker 1: were followed for a few blocks. It was terrifying. We 468 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:57,240 Speaker 1: eventually ducked into a bar we happened to run across 469 00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:02,280 Speaker 1: just to be around other people. Um. And and he 470 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:05,320 Speaker 1: talked about this guy, this listener in his letter talked 471 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:09,480 Speaker 1: about how afterwards he was just so confused, and I 472 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:13,520 Speaker 1: was wondering what he had done to bring it on himself. 473 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:16,360 Speaker 1: And the answer is nothing, because this is an issue 474 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 1: that has been going on in this fight for safety 475 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:24,320 Speaker 1: and public spaces for so long. Yeah, And I mean 476 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,040 Speaker 1: that's where that's where I mean what you just said 477 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 1: is where it's evident that this is a problem of individuals. Certainly, 478 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:36,160 Speaker 1: it's a problem of the men who choose to harass people, 479 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 1: men and women on the street, but it's also part 480 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:44,320 Speaker 1: of such a huge cultural issue of of women's not 481 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 1: only women's safety and and men's safety too, but of 482 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:54,160 Speaker 1: allowing people to just exist, allowing people to go about 483 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:57,320 Speaker 1: their business in public. Well, and we need to I 484 00:30:57,320 --> 00:30:59,440 Speaker 1: want to re emphasize as well the fact that a 485 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:05,719 Speaker 1: lot of these conversations are focused on usually cis gender women, 486 00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 1: but trans women are at much heightened levels not only 487 00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:14,800 Speaker 1: for being at risk of street harassment but outright violence 488 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:17,959 Speaker 1: and attack in public spaces as well, and that's something 489 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:22,080 Speaker 1: that you know needs to be addressed too, and it's 490 00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:25,440 Speaker 1: not just something that's happening in the US, even though um, 491 00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:29,520 Speaker 1: a New Zealand camera crew conducted the same kind of 492 00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:32,640 Speaker 1: social experiment as the Hollyback video where they had a model, 493 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:36,280 Speaker 1: an actual model, go out on the street and walk 494 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:38,840 Speaker 1: around in a busy place and she got a cat 495 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:42,080 Speaker 1: called zero times. She got stopped once for someone like 496 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 1: asking her for directions, and so it raised the question of, well, 497 00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 1: what's going on, what's the difference here? Um? And and 498 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:52,920 Speaker 1: I don't I mean, honestly, I don't know the answer, 499 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:55,920 Speaker 1: but I mean, it's certainly been an issue to the 500 00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:58,320 Speaker 1: point that there are now women only subway cars and 501 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:02,960 Speaker 1: taxi services in places like India and Japan in order 502 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:06,800 Speaker 1: to shield women from street harassment. But I mean, something 503 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:10,720 Speaker 1: like that causes its own problems because okay, great, you're 504 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 1: in your woman only train car, You're you're not gonna 505 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:17,160 Speaker 1: get groped, you're not gonna get harassed. But suddenly, um, 506 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:20,440 Speaker 1: that separates the sexes completely. So a man who would 507 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:23,040 Speaker 1: be harassing someone when he does see a woman, it's 508 00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:27,920 Speaker 1: an even rare occurrence, and he's even more likely to harass. Yeah, 509 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:30,440 Speaker 1: I mean it's it's definitely been a huge problem in 510 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:34,520 Speaker 1: Indian there's a lot of grassroots activism going on there 511 00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:37,880 Speaker 1: to tackle it as well as just the issue of 512 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:41,000 Speaker 1: sexual harassment more generally speaking. UM, I thought it was 513 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:45,360 Speaker 1: really interesting that in two thousand eleven, Bangladesh officially did 514 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:49,720 Speaker 1: away with the eve teasing euphemism cat calling um was 515 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:53,760 Speaker 1: known by and probably still is euphemistically known as eve 516 00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 1: teasing or just a street harassment as ephemistically known as 517 00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:59,960 Speaker 1: eve teasing. And uh, the courts he did away with 518 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:02,840 Speaker 1: that in Bangladesh to categorize it as a form of 519 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:06,480 Speaker 1: sexual harassment. And also in Nepal there is a law 520 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:10,640 Speaker 1: pass allowing police to immediately arrest someone suspected of street 521 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:14,280 Speaker 1: harassment without a warrant. So clearly this is I mean, 522 00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:16,400 Speaker 1: it's not just something going on in American streets. This 523 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:20,959 Speaker 1: is a global conversation that's happening, um. And there are 524 00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:27,080 Speaker 1: questions too in the US about laws regarding public harassment, 525 00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:31,400 Speaker 1: because the thing about street harassment is that the kinds 526 00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:34,280 Speaker 1: of horror, horrifying and sexually forward things that are yelled 527 00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:36,920 Speaker 1: at women. If you say that in a public space. 528 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:38,640 Speaker 1: If you say that at a workplace or a school, 529 00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:43,280 Speaker 1: they're already laws in place to protect people against that, 530 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:47,440 Speaker 1: but not so on the streets. Yeah, and so this 531 00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:51,200 Speaker 1: gets into the issue of what's called fighting words. Legally, 532 00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:56,440 Speaker 1: and in our country, we have protections against fighting words, 533 00:33:56,520 --> 00:34:00,520 Speaker 1: things like yelling fire in a theater or saying something 534 00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:04,240 Speaker 1: to another human being that will create an unsafe situation. 535 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:07,880 Speaker 1: They actually got their start as a way to essentially 536 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:12,600 Speaker 1: prevents guys from challenging each other to duels and then 537 00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:15,680 Speaker 1: killing each other over an argument. And so while that 538 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:19,960 Speaker 1: legally has trickled down through the years, no such protection 539 00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:24,400 Speaker 1: exists to women or men when it comes to street 540 00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:28,240 Speaker 1: harassment and the language used when people do harass people 541 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:31,000 Speaker 1: on the street. Yeah. I mean, I have a feeling 542 00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:34,120 Speaker 1: that that's probably never gonna happen, that the fighting words 543 00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:38,520 Speaker 1: action will be amended to that, but it definitely changes 544 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:42,400 Speaker 1: the way I thought about how it operates in a 545 00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:46,880 Speaker 1: public space. Um. But the thing about it is, Caroline, 546 00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:50,959 Speaker 1: there are plenty of people who aren't men who also say, 547 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:55,400 Speaker 1: oh my gosh, this is not harassment. It's still a compliment. 548 00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:57,960 Speaker 1: And before we close out the podcast, we do need 549 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:01,719 Speaker 1: to address that um, there was a woman or is 550 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:05,320 Speaker 1: a woman? She's not dead. Derrie Laak, who kind of 551 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:08,880 Speaker 1: became the poster gal of pro cat callers when she 552 00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:11,000 Speaker 1: wrote an op ed in The New York Post that 553 00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:15,879 Speaker 1: went viral for kind of all the wrong reasons because 554 00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:19,160 Speaker 1: it was headlined, Hey, ladies, cat calls are flattering, deal 555 00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:22,520 Speaker 1: with it, and I'm not gonna waste my breath going 556 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:25,520 Speaker 1: over all of her reasons why she enjoyed being cat 557 00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:28,839 Speaker 1: called um. But there was a study we found from 558 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:31,439 Speaker 1: the journal Sexuality and Culture from two thousand and ten 559 00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:37,680 Speaker 1: looking closer at the context of cat calling to dig 560 00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:40,960 Speaker 1: into that question of well is it complimentary? Because you 561 00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:43,279 Speaker 1: do find like in pretty much anything you read about it, 562 00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:46,560 Speaker 1: there's always a subset of people saying, well, I gonna 563 00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:50,640 Speaker 1: like it. I gotta like hearing that I look good. Yeah, 564 00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:53,799 Speaker 1: And and there were, for instance, there were a lot 565 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:57,440 Speaker 1: of comments under the video of the actors who was 566 00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:00,400 Speaker 1: walking through New York. There were a lot of comments um, 567 00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:04,759 Speaker 1: calling her a lot of dirty words and saying it's 568 00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:07,279 Speaker 1: women like this that are the reason that men are 569 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:09,960 Speaker 1: afraid to come talk to me and tell me I 570 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:13,160 Speaker 1: look nice, Like, what's wrong with a man uh coming 571 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:15,960 Speaker 1: in saying hello and giving me his number whatever, and 572 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:18,640 Speaker 1: it's like, whoa. These are different things, but it is 573 00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:23,239 Speaker 1: important to discuss context well. And also, Caroline, there's the 574 00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:26,919 Speaker 1: risk of forgetting to smile some days if people don't 575 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:30,160 Speaker 1: tell you to. You know, I forget all the time. 576 00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:32,120 Speaker 1: It's not until I walk into work and Kristin yelled 577 00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:33,880 Speaker 1: at me from across the room to smile that I 578 00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:37,160 Speaker 1: even remember. Yeah, I'm just trying to compliment you girl, 579 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:40,760 Speaker 1: I know. But yeah, So this this study that Kristen 580 00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:46,200 Speaker 1: is talking about found that lower contextual threat levels do 581 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:51,480 Speaker 1: have a bearing on how women perceive the cat calling, 582 00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:57,799 Speaker 1: the harassment, the the eye contact, whatever it may be. Yeah, 583 00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:00,600 Speaker 1: because there's this whole thing of harass swinis in the 584 00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:04,880 Speaker 1: eye of the beholder in terms to how um threatening 585 00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:09,000 Speaker 1: it feels. And so this study conducted a lot of 586 00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:14,839 Speaker 1: experiments and highlighted perception variables. In other words, the key 587 00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:20,760 Speaker 1: things sort of influence that threat level, and that includes age, 588 00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:26,480 Speaker 1: marital status, sex attractiveness, familiarity status, job status of the perpetrator, 589 00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:32,080 Speaker 1: demographic sexual identity, and attitudes toward women of the observer. 590 00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:35,600 Speaker 1: So that's also looking at how we as outsiders perceived 591 00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:38,719 Speaker 1: the people watching the video of the woman walking through 592 00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:41,960 Speaker 1: New York for ten hours, how we perceive that and 593 00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:45,280 Speaker 1: whether that is or is not harassment. And it really 594 00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:49,120 Speaker 1: focused in on the attractiveness and age of the harasser, 595 00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:53,360 Speaker 1: as well as being alone or with friends, as the 596 00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:57,359 Speaker 1: major context factors for how fearful a woman was at 597 00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:01,920 Speaker 1: the prospect of these different read harassment scenarios they were 598 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:05,759 Speaker 1: presented with, because there is a sticky question of well, 599 00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:10,400 Speaker 1: if he's young and hot, maybe maybe it's maybe it 600 00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:13,279 Speaker 1: is more of a compliment than harassment. Yeah, but I 601 00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:16,520 Speaker 1: mean when you when you mix and match all of 602 00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:19,719 Speaker 1: these perception variables, and that has a lot to do 603 00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:21,920 Speaker 1: with it. I don't care how hot the guy is, 604 00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:25,080 Speaker 1: if he is like physically, if he's following me down 605 00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:28,560 Speaker 1: the street yelling at me, I mean, that's still going 606 00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:31,720 Speaker 1: to be a high threat situation that I'm going to perceive. 607 00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:35,000 Speaker 1: You know. Yes, there are so many different variables to 608 00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:40,279 Speaker 1: take into account. But um and and I don't discount 609 00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:42,440 Speaker 1: that a lot of people will say, well, it's not 610 00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:44,319 Speaker 1: as threatening if he's good looking, or if he's rich, 611 00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:46,960 Speaker 1: or or if he's driving a Bentley or whatever. Um 612 00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:49,239 Speaker 1: as opposed to if he's a guy sitting sitting on 613 00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:52,840 Speaker 1: a stoop outside of his apartment. But there's still I 614 00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:57,040 Speaker 1: don't know, there's just so many contextual threat things to 615 00:38:57,040 --> 00:38:59,360 Speaker 1: take into account. Because well, that was the thing too 616 00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:04,000 Speaker 1: in all of these studies that they conducted, even when 617 00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:09,800 Speaker 1: sort of playing around with those different variables, it never 618 00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:14,960 Speaker 1: found like nothing completely mitigated all the negative impacts on 619 00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:19,200 Speaker 1: the recipient in terms of feelings of self objectification, feelings 620 00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:23,960 Speaker 1: of safety. There was never a perfect scenario when it 621 00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:28,400 Speaker 1: was like a guy saying something lude or threatening or inappropriate, 622 00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:33,480 Speaker 1: and then the recipient was like, and I feel great, 623 00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:37,360 Speaker 1: and I feel like a strong and powerful person walking 624 00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:40,160 Speaker 1: through the streets. There is there's no no way you 625 00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:43,560 Speaker 1: slice and dice it. Does it not have a negative outcome, 626 00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:47,480 Speaker 1: even if it's a small one. Yeah, exactly. And also 627 00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:50,320 Speaker 1: as I was reading all of this too and thinking 628 00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:55,120 Speaker 1: about the kinds of especially the more lewd things that 629 00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:59,120 Speaker 1: are said on or even just the lude implications that 630 00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:03,719 Speaker 1: are made in very benign statements, um, and even just 631 00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:06,319 Speaker 1: in the looks, you can just be looked up and 632 00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:10,080 Speaker 1: down and feel as violated as you would if a 633 00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:14,160 Speaker 1: guy propositioned you for sex right then and there. And 634 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:17,640 Speaker 1: I feel like it says also so much about in 635 00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:22,560 Speaker 1: many ways, how sexually backward our society is when this 636 00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:26,920 Speaker 1: kind of sexual communication in a public space is often 637 00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:32,440 Speaker 1: deemed complimentary and benign, whereas we still can't get sexual 638 00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:36,600 Speaker 1: consent and communication between two people in private spaces like 639 00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:39,880 Speaker 1: straightened out, Like why is that? I mean, there's so 640 00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:42,640 Speaker 1: many there's so many layers. And also I feel like too, 641 00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:45,319 Speaker 1: the whole thing of well, if he's attractive, then it's 642 00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:48,040 Speaker 1: a compliment also leads to the question of well, why 643 00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:52,440 Speaker 1: is being called hot by a stranger, like the the best, 644 00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:56,359 Speaker 1: most validating thing for a woman, you know, Like why 645 00:40:56,520 --> 00:41:02,960 Speaker 1: is being called beautiful the most coveted kind of compliment 646 00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:05,480 Speaker 1: a woman can receive in our society too. There are 647 00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:08,560 Speaker 1: lots of layers to this, So I mean, yeah, exactly, 648 00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:12,560 Speaker 1: And I think that the historical context of all this 649 00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:17,319 Speaker 1: is so important to take into account, especially if you 650 00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:23,520 Speaker 1: do argue that cat calling is totally benign because it's 651 00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:29,120 Speaker 1: actually not well, because it's not about compliments, it's about power. 652 00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:31,920 Speaker 1: It's all about power in the same way that rape 653 00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:35,080 Speaker 1: is not about sex, it's about power. And and am 654 00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:37,520 Speaker 1: I saying that all men who tell women to smile 655 00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:41,200 Speaker 1: are rapists. No, but it's still it is a fact 656 00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:44,719 Speaker 1: of It's an issue of power. Yeah, because I have 657 00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:47,440 Speaker 1: a hard time thinking that the men who yelled at 658 00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:50,720 Speaker 1: me to smile, we're yelling at other men to smile. 659 00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:54,720 Speaker 1: I have a hard time believing that it was just like, gosh, 660 00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:56,960 Speaker 1: darn it, you guys, I just want the world to 661 00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:01,000 Speaker 1: be a happier place. At this train, seem more smile. Yeah, 662 00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:03,200 Speaker 1: And and so I mean when you, when you look 663 00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:06,040 Speaker 1: at that, look at things in the context of that, 664 00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:09,839 Speaker 1: I think that says a lot too. And so it's 665 00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:15,200 Speaker 1: really important to not just have this conversation with adults 666 00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:18,640 Speaker 1: and fellow people in the world who get cat called 667 00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:21,479 Speaker 1: and harassed on the streets in public against their will. 668 00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:24,839 Speaker 1: I think it's important to talk to kids about these 669 00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:28,480 Speaker 1: issues too, maybe not go into so many gruesome details, perhaps, 670 00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:33,080 Speaker 1: but to discuss issues of consent and what is and 671 00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:35,960 Speaker 1: is not appropriate. And we want to acknowledge to you 672 00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:40,240 Speaker 1: before we close out that this is we're talking about 673 00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:43,960 Speaker 1: a very slim minority of men who are doing this, 674 00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:49,920 Speaker 1: but the reaction of that slim minority behavior to the 675 00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:53,439 Speaker 1: you know, the majority's reaction to it says a lot. Yeah. 676 00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:55,640 Speaker 1: But now we want to hear from our listeners because 677 00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:57,799 Speaker 1: I have a feeling that lots of people have lots 678 00:42:57,800 --> 00:42:59,680 Speaker 1: of things to say, and we want to hear from 679 00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:02,560 Speaker 1: everybody on this because everybody has a stake in this, 680 00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:07,560 Speaker 1: because at some point we probably all exist in public spaces. 681 00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:10,239 Speaker 1: So mom Stuff at house stuffworks dot Com is our 682 00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:12,920 Speaker 1: email address. You can also tweet us at mom Stuff 683 00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:15,960 Speaker 1: podcast and messages on Facebook, and we've got a couple 684 00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:22,920 Speaker 1: of messages to share with you right now. So I've 685 00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:24,759 Speaker 1: gotta let her here from someone who would like to 686 00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:29,920 Speaker 1: remain anonymous about our episode on Lady Lawyers, and she writes, 687 00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:32,760 Speaker 1: as a practicing lawyer, I can tell you that shaming 688 00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:35,560 Speaker 1: does happen in court. Early in my career, I was 689 00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:38,560 Speaker 1: at a federal court hearing with senior partners, and because 690 00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:41,080 Speaker 1: I had forgotten to drop off my dry cleaning after work, 691 00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:45,120 Speaker 1: I had to wear a royal blue pinstripe skirt suit 692 00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:48,560 Speaker 1: to court. I was the only person not wearing black 693 00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:51,279 Speaker 1: or gray, while not a single one of the male 694 00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:53,600 Speaker 1: partners who I worked with ever made a comment about it. 695 00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:56,560 Speaker 1: At the end of the hearing, a thirty five to 696 00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:59,480 Speaker 1: forty five year old male Department of Justice attorney walked 697 00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:01,799 Speaker 1: around two our table to the opposite side where I 698 00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:05,879 Speaker 1: was standing, came up, stood right behind me, leaned in 699 00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:10,480 Speaker 1: and whispered nice suit. Needless to say, I vow that 700 00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:13,160 Speaker 1: I would never again wear anything but black or gray 701 00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:15,879 Speaker 1: to court. Well, I still wouldn't wear a royal blue 702 00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:18,680 Speaker 1: suit to federal court. There is a lot of theater 703 00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:20,640 Speaker 1: involved in going to court, and part of the show 704 00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:23,440 Speaker 1: is playing to your audience. I have friends who single 705 00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:26,760 Speaker 1: male colleagues put on wedding bands before trials because studies 706 00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:30,040 Speaker 1: have shown that juries trust married men more than single men. 707 00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:34,040 Speaker 1: Like Michael J. Fox's character on The Good Wife, I 708 00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:38,160 Speaker 1: think most lawyers would gladly alter their appearance or exaggerate 709 00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:41,040 Speaker 1: a disability to sway the jury or the judge in 710 00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:44,120 Speaker 1: their client's favor. In response to your question about how 711 00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:46,880 Speaker 1: big this problem is, it isn't a big problem because, 712 00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:51,200 Speaker 1: unlike TV, most lawyers don't go to court so often. 713 00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:54,959 Speaker 1: So thanks for that insight. So I have a letter 714 00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:58,719 Speaker 1: here from Lauren uh in response to our Lady Lawyer's 715 00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:01,600 Speaker 1: dress code episode, and she might not agree with the 716 00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:03,960 Speaker 1: author of that last letter Christian. In terms of staying 717 00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:07,320 Speaker 1: true to just black and gray, she says, as a 718 00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:09,600 Speaker 1: lady lawyer, I am very conscious of what I wear 719 00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:12,680 Speaker 1: at a court I'm a Midwestern, middle class raised gal, 720 00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:15,160 Speaker 1: but at thirty five, I became a named partner in 721 00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:17,759 Speaker 1: a Boston law firm through sheer, hard work and a 722 00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:20,800 Speaker 1: few smarts. As unfortunate as it is, women in the 723 00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:22,799 Speaker 1: courtroom do need to think about what they wear and 724 00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:26,200 Speaker 1: how they wear it, much more than our male counterparts. However, 725 00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:29,880 Speaker 1: this does not mean that women should shirk their individuality. 726 00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:32,640 Speaker 1: Wear a skirt suit that hits just below the knee 727 00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:35,920 Speaker 1: and a modest button up shirt, but make the suit red. 728 00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:38,800 Speaker 1: I've found that so long as the length and neckline 729 00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:41,440 Speaker 1: are appropriate and what comes from your mouth is intelligent, 730 00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:44,839 Speaker 1: judges and fellow lawyers will respect you. I never wear 731 00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:48,640 Speaker 1: black suits and I always wear stiletto heels. Ask anyone 732 00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:50,719 Speaker 1: in my court house and they will tell you I 733 00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:55,280 Speaker 1: am forced to be reckoned. With lots of love to you, ladies, 734 00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:57,480 Speaker 1: and if any lady lawyer or hopeful lady lawyers in 735 00:45:57,480 --> 00:45:59,960 Speaker 1: the Boston area, I would love to help her succeed 736 00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:02,680 Speaker 1: in any way. I can so thank you, Lauren, and 737 00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:05,359 Speaker 1: thanks to everybody who's written into us. Mom. Stuff at 738 00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:08,120 Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com is our email address and 739 00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:10,000 Speaker 1: for links all of our social media as well as 740 00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:13,279 Speaker 1: all of our blogs, videos, and podcasts, including this one 741 00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:16,319 Speaker 1: with links to our sources so you can read all 742 00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:19,959 Speaker 1: about the history of smashing the mashers. Head on over 743 00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:27,399 Speaker 1: to stuff mom Never Told You dot com for more 744 00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:29,719 Speaker 1: on this and thousands of other topics. Does it how 745 00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:38,640 Speaker 1: stuff works dot com