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Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

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Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 1: it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true

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Speaker 2: crime all the time. It's Wednesday, February fourth, and yes,

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Speaker 2: we have a stack knight of headlines breaking news as

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Speaker 2: we come on the air. Savannah Guthrie and her siblings

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Speaker 2: are speaking out and they are basically saying that they

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Speaker 2: are quote ready to talk end quote to anyone holding

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Speaker 2: their mother as long as.

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Speaker 3: They have proof that she is alive. This is becoming

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Speaker 3: extremely dire.

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Speaker 2: Also, former First Lady Jill Biden's ex husband is facing

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Speaker 2: murder charges. What a twisted tale that we will unpack.

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Speaker 2: And tonight we have an extremely special guest with us.

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Speaker 2: We mentioned it last night as we all you know,

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Speaker 2: examine and go through this newly released dump of files

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Speaker 2: in the Epstein files three million plus and let me know,

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Speaker 2: I am knee deep in them, and it's staggering.

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Speaker 3: It is staggering. It is staggering.

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Speaker 2: Nothing that I want to report on yet, because again,

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Speaker 2: we really want to be open minded and look at

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Speaker 2: the totality. But tonight we have an Epstein's survivor and

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Speaker 2: advocate and host of the hit podcast from now on

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Speaker 2: a really important podcast. I might add Lisa Phillips, and

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Speaker 2: she's going to share with us, you know, her experience

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Speaker 2: both with Epstein on the island and also the big

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Speaker 2: new developments happening in the in this case now. And

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Speaker 2: I think that's important to call it that this is

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Speaker 2: a network, this is a big thing.

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Speaker 3: So obviously our support is with her.

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Speaker 2: So I'm Stephanie Leidecker, I head of KAT Studios, where

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Speaker 2: we make true crime podcasts and documentaries.

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Speaker 3: Haven't said that in a hot minute.

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Speaker 2: And I get to be here every single night with

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Speaker 2: Courtney Armstrong.

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Speaker 3: Body move in, ladies. How are you?

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Speaker 4: It's been a frazzle today, it has. I have been

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Speaker 4: so frazzled today, Stephanie, Like, what.

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Speaker 3: Is going on? It's in the air.

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Speaker 4: I was just saying, I was driving home right before

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Speaker 4: the show and I just I kind of wanted to

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Speaker 4: pull over and just start crying. It's just like one

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Speaker 4: of those days. It's one of those worst time in

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Speaker 4: the history of the world to be a paramenopausal woman.

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Speaker 3: Let me just tell you that right now, Like, let me, honey,

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Speaker 3: need some hormones. This is like karma for something I

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Speaker 3: did when I was a kid or something. Oh my gosh.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes you just got to pull over on the side

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Speaker 2: of the road and have a good cry, you know,

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Speaker 2: and don't fight the system on that whe or scream

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Speaker 2: at a train or something. And Courtney's been battling a

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Speaker 2: cold and a flu and a COVID and all the things.

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Speaker 3: How would get this good?

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Speaker 5: You know?

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Speaker 6: It's it's been. It has been a Wednesday kind of

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Speaker 6: across the board.

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Speaker 3: We have a big exhale. I'm so glad.

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Speaker 4: No, I'm sitting here and I can kind of relax.

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Speaker 4: Isn't it crazy? I think it's relaxed with my girls.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly where we need to be.

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Speaker 4: I feel like, okay, now I can kind of like

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Speaker 4: unpack everything.

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Speaker 2: And by the way, if you want to unpack with

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Speaker 2: us eight eight eight three one crime. Hey, listen creating

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Speaker 2: a swell over swag. It's happening.

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Speaker 7: Boy.

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Speaker 3: The phones have been a buzz. We got the talkbacks coming.

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Speaker 2: We're getting suggestions left and right from you guys, and

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Speaker 2: we're so thrilled to have it.

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Speaker 3: So more on that later. In the show.

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Speaker 2: But first, big things happening. Where is Nancy Courtney.

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Speaker 6: What's the update, Well, the search for Nancy Guthrie. She

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Speaker 6: of course is the mother of NBC's Savannah Guthrie. Nancy

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Speaker 6: continues to be missing, and this is a mid report

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Speaker 6: of there's been smashed cameras found at her home. There

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Speaker 6: has been several ransom notes that have gone out to

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Speaker 6: at this point three outlets that we're aware of, and

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Speaker 6: the FBI and local investigations continue. So Nancy, if you're

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Speaker 6: just catching up, she's eighty four years old, she's a grandmother.

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Speaker 6: She is beloved by her family, and she pretty grave

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Speaker 6: mobility issues and relies on daily medications. That is, we

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Speaker 6: understand it's pretty dire if she doesn't have them daily.

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Speaker 6: She was last seen at her home in Tucson in

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Speaker 6: Arizona on Saturday. She was reported missing the next day

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Speaker 6: when she failed to attend church, and her disappearance is

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Speaker 6: being treated as potential kidnapping. Before we go further into details,

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Speaker 6: why don't we go to an audio clip. Yeah, Savannah,

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Speaker 6: she's actually Savannah Gothrie is sitting there with her two siblings,

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Speaker 6: her brother and her sister, and they're speaking in regards

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Speaker 6: to the ransom notes.

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Speaker 5: Our mom is our heart and our home. She's eighty

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Speaker 5: four years old. Her health, her heart is fracial. She

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Speaker 5: lives in constant pain. She is without any medicine. She

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Speaker 5: needs it to survive, she needs it not to suffer.

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Speaker 5: We too have heard the reports about a ransom letter

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Speaker 5: in the media. As a family, we are doing everything

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Speaker 5: that we can.

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Speaker 3: We are ready to talk.

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Speaker 5: However, we live in a world where voices and images

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Speaker 5: are easily manipulated. We need to know without a doubt

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Speaker 5: that she is alive and that you have her. We

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Speaker 5: want to hear from you, and we are ready to listen.

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Speaker 3: Wow.

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Speaker 2: I mean they're pulling at it. I mean, think about it.

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Speaker 2: It's almost four days. We know that she needed medication

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Speaker 2: day one, so now they're talking to someone who may

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Speaker 2: be holding her hostage.

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Speaker 3: This is day five, right, Wow? Oh dear, You know a.

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Speaker 2: Couple of things that come to mind when we obviously

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Speaker 2: saw some early reporting this morning and late last night

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Speaker 2: that there had been a suspect named and we're not

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Speaker 2: even going to repeat it because it doesn't appear to

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Speaker 2: be accurate, which is well, really confusing. We don't know

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Speaker 2: what is right and wrong on that, But some really

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Speaker 2: beloved journalists that we think very highly of, or at

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Speaker 2: least I do. Ashley Banfield last night on her podcast

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Speaker 2: announced that she had very good sourcing about there being

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Speaker 2: a family connection, and TMZ later reported on that as well.

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Speaker 2: And then that seems to be have been pulled back.

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Speaker 2: Is that strategy from the sheriff's apartment or did they

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Speaker 2: get it wrong right? And if that's the case, that's

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Speaker 2: pretty harrowing as well. I mean, either way, it's.

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Speaker 4: Bad, right, Like, if he's not a suspect, you might

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Speaker 4: have potentially ruined somebody's life.

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Speaker 3: Literally is a suspect.

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Speaker 4: Now he's tipped off, right now he knows that he's

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Speaker 4: being looked at.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's just it. But listen, it wouldn't be

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Speaker 3: a surprise.

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Speaker 4: I mean we talked about this last night that it

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Speaker 4: has to be somebody they know, Like not they but

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Speaker 4: maybe she knew in some capacity, whether it was you know,

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Speaker 4: somebody who like lived nearby or she saw regularly something

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Speaker 4: or a family member.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it just seems so targeted. It's so strange

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Speaker 2: to have a talkback right now, let's just go to.

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Speaker 8: The top back hay seing this is Alicia from Atlanta.

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Speaker 8: I had a quick thought about miss Nancy Guthrie and

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Speaker 8: whether launch question has looked into anyone who may have

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Speaker 8: been around her recently, family and home assistance, or even

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Speaker 8: recent work done in the home, especially due.

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Speaker 7: To her mobility issues.

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Speaker 8: I'm not suggesting anything at all, just curious that those

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Speaker 8: angles were explored. I have a great one buy.

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Speaker 3: Great talkback, and you know you're on the same page

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Speaker 3: as us.

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Speaker 4: I mean literally, I mean somebody that she had contact

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Speaker 4: with within you know, fairly recent amount of time. I

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Speaker 4: think that police are looking at all of those things.

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Speaker 2: I would have to assume, Yeah, you would have to

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Speaker 2: assume they're going through all of Savannah Guthrie's emails at work.

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Speaker 2: Was she potentially working on a case? Was there something

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Speaker 2: that is targeted to her as a newsperson, right.

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Speaker 4: Maybe maybe a case you covered or correct maybe so Epstein,

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Speaker 4: maybe Epstein.

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Speaker 2: You know that is chatter that she had done a

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Speaker 2: very explosive interview back in twenty nineteen with Virginia Goufre.

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Speaker 3: Again, this is all speculation. It is to repeat the speculation, and.

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Speaker 2: Maybe there's somehow weird timing in that. There's also that

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Speaker 2: you have to assume, as in any investigation, that usually

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Speaker 2: it's someone in the circle that maybe there's revenge, or

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Speaker 2: there's a need, or there's love, or there's an insurance

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Speaker 2: or somethings who would steal beautiful eighty four year old

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Speaker 2: needs four because it's so like imagine having to take

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Speaker 2: care of somebody that's eighty four that needs medication and

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Speaker 2: has the ability issue.

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Speaker 3: It's like it's a big liability. Right. So the blood

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Speaker 3: is hers, right, is it? Yeah?

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Speaker 6: So that's an update from lan last night. So there

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Speaker 6: was blood found. We learned yesterday there were signs of

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Speaker 6: forced entry and and some blood and they have been

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Speaker 6: confirmed to belong to Nancy. And just in terms of

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Speaker 6: sort of the TikTok of things, authority say that Nancy

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Speaker 6: Gothrie was last seen on Saturday, January thirty first body

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Speaker 6: to your point.

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Speaker 2: And then they are approximating that somewhere around two am,

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Speaker 2: just based on her Apple watch and you know, her

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Speaker 2: pacemaker that we're looking at about two am of as

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Speaker 2: the time stamp. But again we're days later. It's getting

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Speaker 2: quite dire, you know, is the sheriff maybe holding information

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Speaker 2: close to the heart. We know the FBI has now

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Speaker 2: stepped in as they should, and you know, as days

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Speaker 2: go on, the first forty eight hours we know were

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Speaker 2: the most significant hours in an investigation. I can only

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Speaker 2: imagine how incredibly devastating this must be. I think everybody's

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Speaker 2: wanting Nancy's safe return.

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Speaker 4: So sad if you're just joining us as a sue

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Speaker 4: crime tonight, we're right in the middle of talking about

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Speaker 4: Nancy Guthrie. She's been missing, and I understand we have

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Speaker 4: a caller.

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Speaker 7: Hi, Andy, Hi Minnesota.

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Speaker 9: Hi.

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Speaker 3: You are cold in Minnesota. I can imagine freezing. I

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Speaker 3: would imagine.

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Speaker 9: Yes, it's actually warm. It's like twenty degrees.

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Speaker 4: Now, Oh my goodness, that respective that would kill me.

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Speaker 4: It's de greasier and I am bundled up. Let me

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Speaker 4: tell you where three sweatshirds. So our hearts are with

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Speaker 4: you already, Welcome to the show.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for calling. What's up?

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Speaker 9: Yes, I just wanted to I've called a few times before,

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Speaker 9: and I just wanted to say thank you from the

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Speaker 9: occupied state of Minnesota for you guys speaking out and

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Speaker 9: talking about what's been going on and telling the truth

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Speaker 9: about the government's lie is about what's happening here, and

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Speaker 9: I haven't been able to listen lately because things are

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Speaker 9: so incorating here. I just wanted to reach out. I've

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Speaker 9: been thinking about you guys, and I just wanted to

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Speaker 9: say hello and hope you're all doing well, and thank

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Speaker 9: you for thinking of Minnesota.

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Speaker 4: You know, all of Minnesota is in our hearts like

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Speaker 4: it's nationwide, right, Like, yeah, you have no idea, Like

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Speaker 4: I think about you guys every day.

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Speaker 3: This is buddy, Is it changing a little bit?

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Speaker 2: So we know that troops have been you know, it's

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Speaker 2: getting you know, I don't know what the word is,

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Speaker 2: there's an official term.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 9: He said that they're drawing down seven hundred troops, but

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Speaker 9: he also said that that's contingent on those not impeding anymore,

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Speaker 9: which and then he said that's contingent on the local

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Speaker 9: police helping, which they have been so and it's like

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Speaker 9: the receipts don't match and they can't put up receipts

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Speaker 9: that match with their numbers, and the whole thing is

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Speaker 9: like living in a dystopian nightmare. And I like my

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Speaker 9: dystopian futures in books me too.

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Speaker 4: I like watching them on TV, not like, well, in

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Speaker 4: my story, you're not in the news, right.

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Speaker 9: Yes, one of my friends had she's a US citizen.

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Speaker 9: She had her car window broken out, she was drug

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Speaker 9: out of her car and detained for hours without the

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Speaker 9: ability to call a lawyer because she was honking at them.

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Speaker 6: Andy and sadly, what you just First of all, we

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Speaker 6: are so sorry for your friend, and more sorry that

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Speaker 6: that is not uncommon. There have been multiple reports of

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Speaker 6: exactly that kind of insane behavior.

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Speaker 3: I can tell you though.

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Speaker 9: Why we're fighting back, and that's.

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Speaker 4: Why Minnesota nice has a new meaning in every in

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Speaker 4: This is just my opinion, but everybody in Minnesota should

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Speaker 4: be holding their head very high.

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Speaker 3: And I agree, Thank you agree. Seriously, we hope you're

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Speaker 3: feeling the love.

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Speaker 2: I think I hope that my coming through there because

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Speaker 2: you know, I think the circle we feel it. And

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Speaker 2: I think everyone's a little bit, you know, sticking together

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Speaker 2: on this one in terms of you know, 'tis enough.

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Speaker 9: I tear up when I see like Kalamazoo Michigan saying

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Speaker 9: Minnesota state or the Boston people saying we're not cold,

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Speaker 9: we're not afraid. Many taught us to be brave, you know,

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Speaker 9: It's like, oh, I love that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they know what.

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Speaker 9: We're doing and we're standing out here in the cold,

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Speaker 9: ten thousands of us, you know, saying this is not right,

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Speaker 9: It's not okay.

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Speaker 4: Our constitution means something. It means a lot to a

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Speaker 4: lot of us. And so Andy, thank you.

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Speaker 3: For being the voice of reason and giving us a call.

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Speaker 4: We really appreciate it, you know what I mean, Like,

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Speaker 4: we really do appreciate it. And night, we're sending you

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Speaker 4: so much strength and hoping that it doesn't daisy chain

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Speaker 4: out to the rest of the country.

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Speaker 3: Here's some sunshine coming your way.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, sunshine from Vegas in my pocket right to you. Andy,

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Speaker 4: Thank you so much for calling Andy. Oh that was

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Speaker 4: so nice.

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Speaker 3: It's wonderful.

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Speaker 2: What touff out there these days? You know, it's crazy.

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Speaker 2: It's like hard not to feel it. You know, no

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Speaker 2: matter what circle or conversation you're in and where you

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Speaker 2: find yourself in the conversation, there's just a lot going on.

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Speaker 4: There is a lot going on, and we have a

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Speaker 4: lot going on on the show stick Around. Up next,

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Speaker 4: we have a stunning development involving the former First Lady

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Speaker 4: Jill Biden. Her ex husband is now indicted on murder charges.

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Speaker 3: Keep it right here at.

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Speaker 2: Crunting Welcome back to true crime tonight. On iHeartRadio. We're

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Speaker 2: talking true crime all the time. We were just talking

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Speaker 2: about you know, sweet Savannah Guthrie's mother, Nancy alleged to

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Speaker 2: have been abducted, big cry for help, and you know,

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Speaker 2: there was a big police presence noted just before we

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Speaker 2: came on air above head over Nancy's home, and you

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Speaker 2: know they had retracted really police from that scene. But

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Speaker 2: now it's being all taped off. You know, it would

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Speaker 2: be yellow tape again, it's kind of being examined. It

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Speaker 2: seems from a different angle or in a different way.

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Speaker 3: What do you make of that? I don't know.

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Speaker 4: I mean I saw that they it looked like they

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Speaker 4: were like kind of like in the yard. Yeah, and

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Speaker 4: they had taped off a pretty large area. And maybe

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Speaker 4: they found like a piece of evidence or something like,

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Speaker 4: you know, a button like from a shirt or some

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Speaker 4: short It could be something like that, or you know,

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Speaker 4: maybe a clue to who maybe abducted her.

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Speaker 3: I'm hopefully somebody's hoping or.

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Speaker 6: You know, and or if people were if they were

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Speaker 6: a lookie lose God forbid, going and potentially trampling you know.

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Speaker 6: I did want to just mention one other thing about

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Speaker 6: this or these ransom notes. So three media outlets, TMZ,

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Speaker 6: Kold and Kgun, they those three reported receiving ransom notes,

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Speaker 6: and we mentioned last night they're demanding millions in bitcoin.

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Speaker 3: You know, the cats out of the bag.

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Speaker 6: But there's so many reasons to not publicize a ransom note.

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Speaker 6: They generally when given to law enforcement, you know, it

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Speaker 6: can really it can post was risk to a victim's

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Speaker 6: life if the perpetrator is provoked by it. Yeah, it

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Speaker 6: can compromise the investigation.

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Speaker 3: It can spook them too. If that's right, it's real. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: that makes a lot of sense.

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Speaker 2: So meaning the early reporting of a ransom letter, if

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Speaker 2: any kind, should have maybe been given to authorities and

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Speaker 2: kept quiet. Right, Well, maybe authorities were in on TMZ

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Speaker 2: going wide with it.

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Speaker 3: Maybe that's part.

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Speaker 4: Of the boy Maybe I don't think maybe, But if

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Speaker 4: the only thing that is the saving grace in my

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Speaker 4: little mind is that if it's real, let's live in

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Speaker 4: a world where it's real. Right, If it's real, if

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Speaker 4: they really sent them to news outlets like they sent

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Speaker 4: these letters to those outlets, then they want to be public.

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Speaker 4: And if they're not going to overreact with it, comes public, right.

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Speaker 3: Chair that's fair, that's right.

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Speaker 2: You don't send something to Harvey Levin and not expected

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Speaker 2: to be on TMZ.

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Speaker 3: In fact, that's probably be the hope exactly.

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Speaker 6: Harvey Levern's never been asked can you keep a secret?

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Speaker 3: Exactly?

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Speaker 7: Right?

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Speaker 2: Like, yeah, that's fair and right, because that was an

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Speaker 2: interesting choice and I think also would tell I think

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Speaker 2: it was a signal about it not going to a

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Speaker 2: news outlet that was air quotes liberal versus conservative. You know,

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Speaker 2: it didn't go to Fox News, it didn't go to NBC.

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Speaker 2: Why would they send the ransom note to NBC if

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Speaker 2: you have Savannah Guthrie's mom, you know, like, that doesn't

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Speaker 2: make any sense to me.

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Speaker 3: So I thought it was.

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Speaker 2: An interesting If in fact this ransom letter is valid,

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Speaker 2: why would you send it to you know, our beloved

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Speaker 2: Harvey levinett TMZ, which is sort of a neutral, if

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Speaker 2: you will, outlet and politically speaking and more of a

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Speaker 2: pop sort of a thing, like you know, it would

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Speaker 2: get some noise. So is that in the spirit of distraction?

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Speaker 2: Is that in the spirit of it keeping things away

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Speaker 2: from Savannah specifically because again, like she works at a

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Speaker 2: news outlet. If you wanted to get a ransom note,

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Speaker 2: oubt wouldn't you send it there.

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Speaker 4: I have a question, did you get any impression from

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Speaker 4: the what she said that they think it's real?

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Speaker 3: Did she? I'm shocked that.

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Speaker 2: Honestly, this just happened before we came on air, and

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Speaker 2: I was pretty shocked they were even acknowledging it like

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Speaker 2: we were going to we're ready to talk to hostage keepers.

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Speaker 2: So is that where we're leaping now that Nancy has

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Speaker 2: been held hostage for actual ransom? To me, that made

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Speaker 2: it seem as though it's very serious and they are

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Speaker 2: at least wanting the appearance that they are taking it

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Speaker 2: very serious out there. That could be part of the

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Speaker 2: oppos They want proof of life with Yeah, they want

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Speaker 2: proof of life.

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Speaker 3: What a horrible spot to be in, man. I mean,

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Speaker 3: I think you've got to explore all options.

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Speaker 2: If it was a million dollars, yeah, twenty five hundred

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Speaker 2: dollars is the reard. I mean, I feel like Nancy,

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Speaker 2: may she come this running back safe and sound.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, but the family doesn't do with that's right,

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Speaker 3: that's just law enforcement.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, offering for tips fair fair, So that's a very second.

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Speaker 4: In fact, they discourage families from doing that because then

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Speaker 4: you do get ransomed and what on.

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Speaker 2: So right, this is just a terrible ill tale that

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Speaker 2: I really just pray we don't see copycats of or

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Speaker 2: anything like that. The idea that you're abducting people from

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Speaker 2: money for bitcoin is a real low that we are

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Speaker 2: experiencing right now. And again, I can't I can't imagine

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Speaker 2: what kind of a sicko would do this to an

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Speaker 2: eighty four year old woman.

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Speaker 3: Right, I don't. I don't either, I'm going to truly,

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 6: Well, we all just we hope that there is a

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Speaker 6: swift and positive outcome to this.

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Speaker 3: I think that's all we can ask for at this moment.

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Speaker 2: I think that we're going to find Nancy is tough

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Speaker 2: and while maybe she was walking a little bit on

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Speaker 2: a cane, that she's going to find that sixth wind,

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Speaker 2: as all women do right when put to the test,

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Speaker 2: where she is giving them hell right now, and she

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Speaker 2: is a lie and well and strong and tough, and

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Speaker 2: we are sending her tons of courage and bravery.

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Speaker 3: Definitely absolutely well.

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Speaker 6: Listen, if you are just joining us, this is true

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Speaker 6: crime tonight, and we've been updating you on the details

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Speaker 6: of Nancy Guthrie's disappearance. She's the mother of Savannah Guthrie,

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Speaker 6: and we are wishing her well. And now I wanted

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Speaker 6: to turn our attention to the former First Lady Jill Biden's.

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Speaker 6: Her first husband, William Stephenson, has been formally indicted on

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Speaker 6: first degree murder charges.

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Speaker 3: Wow, what are this is? I didn't even know she

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Speaker 3: was married before? She was eighteen months she was very young.

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Speaker 3: So well, Joe Biden was married before.

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Speaker 4: Too well, I know, and his wife died and died,

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Speaker 4: and then I knew that terrible.

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Speaker 3: But I thought I thought it was her first husband.

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Speaker 3: I thought Joe Biden was her first she was married to.

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Speaker 2: Thank god, she left this guy. It sounds she dodged

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Speaker 2: a bullet. Yes, this guy was a nut, Oh my goodness.

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Speaker 3: Allegedly yes, so yes.

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Speaker 6: William Stephenson, the first husband a First Lady Jill Biden.

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Speaker 6: He's been formally indicted on first degree murder charges and

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Speaker 6: the death of his current wife, a woman named Linda Stephenson,

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Speaker 6: now the sixty four year old Stevenson. She was found

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Speaker 6: unresponsive in her home in Delaware. It was on December

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Speaker 6: twenty eighth of last year, and police were responding to

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Speaker 6: a late night domestic dispute. So the seventy seven year

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Speaker 6: old William Stevenson. He was arrested, arraigned, and indicted, and

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Speaker 6: he does remain in custody and after he failed to

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Speaker 6: post the five hundred thousand dollars cash.

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Speaker 3: Big. Okay.

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Speaker 4: So it's a couple days after Christmas, it's late at night,

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Speaker 4: and a domestic dispute is called in, right, the cops

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Speaker 4: show up. It's Jill Biden's ex husband, and the worst

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Speaker 4: is unresponsive.

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Speaker 6: Correct, she was found on responsive and they were unfortunately

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Speaker 6: unable to do anything to change that fact.

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Speaker 2: And while was she unresponsive do we don't do we

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Speaker 2: know any more details?

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Speaker 6: No, there's no details. We don't know literally at all.

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Speaker 6: If she you know, hit her head, broke her foot,

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Speaker 6: we don't know. But she was responsive, is all we know. Unresponsive,

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Speaker 6: And there's no manner of call to death. Okay, not

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Speaker 6: not that's made public to my knowledge that we know of. Yeah,

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Speaker 6: but the grand jury indictment it followed an extensive and

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Speaker 6: weeks long investigation by the Delaware.

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Speaker 3: Department of Justice.

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Speaker 6: So there there's a lot of details that are being

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Speaker 6: withheld in this moment. But it must have been complicated

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Speaker 6: that it wasn't you know, considering it was a dispute

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Speaker 6: called in domestic dispute, that it wasn't sort of on

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Speaker 6: the spot and was weeks of investigation. So William Stevenson

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Speaker 6: was just arraigned yesterday and we don't know in this

442
00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:02,320
Speaker 6: moment what his plea was or who his legal representation is,

443
00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:07,040
Speaker 6: if he's obtained any Oh, my goodness, so everything is.

444
00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:08,840
Speaker 3: Really close hold on this.

445
00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:13,080
Speaker 2: My gosh, who is this person from yesteryear? He was

446
00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:13,680
Speaker 2: a killer?

447
00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:17,560
Speaker 4: I mean, I suspect I suspect She's probably thinking, yeah,

448
00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:21,719
Speaker 4: that tracks, because back in twenty twenty there was an

449
00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:26,480
Speaker 4: interview with him and he said, I was betrayed by

450
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:30,000
Speaker 4: the Bidens. Joe was my friend and Joe was my wife.

451
00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:32,560
Speaker 3: Oh really scared me.

452
00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:35,160
Speaker 4: So really, if she got wind of that quote, she's

453
00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:38,320
Speaker 4: probably like, em that tracks, yeah, killer, I mean in

454
00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:42,359
Speaker 4: twenty twenty. They got married in like nineteen sixty nine,

455
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:45,520
Speaker 4: so this was what forty eight years later or something.

456
00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:49,640
Speaker 3: I mean, no, fifty fifty eight years later. I'm a mathematician.

457
00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:53,399
Speaker 6: She was, you know, Joe Biden was again, she was

458
00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:56,240
Speaker 6: only eighteen years old. They married after knowing each other

459
00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:59,679
Speaker 6: for six months. They were They did stay married for

460
00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:05,240
Speaker 6: five years and when she was asked to reflect back

461
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:08,600
Speaker 6: on this marriage, which Joe Biden did in a memoir

462
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:11,760
Speaker 6: back from twenty nineteen, she said, looking back, it may

463
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:14,119
Speaker 6: have seen that relationship was a mistake of my youth,

464
00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:16,479
Speaker 6: but there was a time when I truly believed we

465
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:17,800
Speaker 6: were destined for each other.

466
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:22,480
Speaker 2: Of course, when you're eighteen, yeah, you're eighteen, nineteen, twenty

467
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:23,119
Speaker 2: years old.

468
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:26,879
Speaker 3: Oh my goodness. The love a little gossip.

469
00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:31,399
Speaker 4: Ye, but this guy Williams, William Stevenson and Joe Biden

470
00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:35,800
Speaker 4: were buds. What that's what he said. He said, I

471
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:39,119
Speaker 4: was betrayed by the Bidens. Joe was my friend.

472
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:42,040
Speaker 2: Well, Joe might have sent me that you were a

473
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:45,800
Speaker 2: killer and was right trying to rescue the girl you

474
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:48,080
Speaker 2: had a little crush on or something. Time to get

475
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:51,280
Speaker 2: to step in, Jill, Doctor Jim, doctor Jill.

476
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:53,639
Speaker 3: That's right. Oh my gosh. Wow.

477
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:58,760
Speaker 6: So we'll see again, a lot of information is not

478
00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:02,440
Speaker 6: out there, but uh, we'll keep following this. Yeah, sure,

479
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:04,359
Speaker 6: it's in and out of the press very quickly.

480
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:07,280
Speaker 2: When this man was arrested, it was like in the

481
00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:08,720
Speaker 2: press and out of the press.

482
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:09,280
Speaker 3: Very very fair.

483
00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:11,359
Speaker 4: Well, there was nothing to say, and because I mean,

484
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:13,600
Speaker 4: there's nothing more to say because we don't know anything.

485
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 4: They haven't released the manner and cause of death. Like

486
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:18,760
Speaker 4: I'm guessing she was probably strangold or something, you know

487
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:19,960
Speaker 4: what I mean, and they found.

488
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:23,320
Speaker 3: Some particular emerging or you know, something along those lines

489
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:28,520
Speaker 3: high bone, the hyoid bone. And they both of you

490
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:29,960
Speaker 3: have been in the crime lab which.

491
00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:33,959
Speaker 6: Hanging out with Joseph Scott Morgan listen to students have

492
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:34,959
Speaker 6: surpassed the teacher.

493
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:42,119
Speaker 3: I won't tell him, crowd, Let's let's go to Tala. Yeah, Hi,

494
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:42,760
Speaker 3: t Crampton.

495
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:45,680
Speaker 10: I just wanted to say welcome back, Stephanie. I did

496
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:51,080
Speaker 10: enjoy body Moving and Courtney Armstrong off the Hinges episodes.

497
00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:51,960
Speaker 3: Those were great.

498
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 10: They did such a great job. I don't know how

499
00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 10: you hold such a great positive attitude after all you're

500
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 10: going through. But I just wanted to say welcome back.

501
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:04,280
Speaker 3: Nice.

502
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:10,160
Speaker 2: No, I'm hinged, but you guys h a little lunch

503
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 2: and at moments I think what made it unhinged.

504
00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:15,840
Speaker 3: I want to hear with the unhinged frocked out.

505
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:18,640
Speaker 2: I don't really anytimes that I've heard it was like, oh,

506
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:23,920
Speaker 2: they're not even gonna want me back, and never never.

507
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:24,760
Speaker 3: By the way.

508
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:27,119
Speaker 6: That was such a great talk back, and man, you

509
00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:31,160
Speaker 6: really got Stephanie Wright in the positive attitude.

510
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:32,600
Speaker 3: You cannot stop it.

511
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:37,560
Speaker 6: Come wind, come rain, come black eyes trees.

512
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:40,960
Speaker 4: I sat down and I was grumpy. I was like,

513
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:43,720
Speaker 4: I sat down, I turned on my computer and I see,

514
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 4: you know, I see the girls, and I'm just grumpy.

515
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:47,840
Speaker 4: And Stephanie's like, what can we help you with? And

516
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 4: I'm like, I feel better already, you know what I mean,

517
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 4: It's just contagious.

518
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:54,440
Speaker 3: I already feel better. I just had a gruffy day.

519
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 3: Crappy days are allowed. I can we just like have

520
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 3: a keep? Did me so better?

521
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,639
Speaker 2: I love you, and you know everybody's feeling it. You know,

522
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:08,240
Speaker 2: we are not alone in feeling like frazzled, you know.

523
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:11,640
Speaker 2: So if you are out there, please welcome.

524
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 6: I was listening. I don't know if you guys know

525
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:19,040
Speaker 6: this podcast. It's by Julia Lewis Dreyfus. It's called Wiser

526
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:19,320
Speaker 6: than Me.

527
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 3: I love her. I love her.

528
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:25,920
Speaker 6: I love this podcast and in the premises she interviews

529
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:27,880
Speaker 6: women who are older and wiser.

530
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,400
Speaker 3: The first episode was Jane Fonda.

531
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 6: There's been Isabella Rosalini, There's been unbelievable Anyway, the most

532
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:37,959
Speaker 6: recent episode that I was listening to this week is

533
00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:41,600
Speaker 6: excuse my pronunciation, Sister pre Gene.

534
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 3: She is the nun who goes to dead Man's.

535
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:50,639
Speaker 6: Dead Man Walking was based on Oh Yeah, the Nuns, a.

536
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 3: Sweat movie in any case.

537
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:54,560
Speaker 6: At the very end of it, so this woman is

538
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,200
Speaker 6: full of wisdom, and at the very end Julia Luis

539
00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 6: Dreyfus said, what words of wisdom or what can you

540
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:03,840
Speaker 6: give people, all of us who are feeling under the

541
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:08,600
Speaker 6: weight of all the oppression that is going on and unfairness,

542
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:12,640
Speaker 6: And it was simply, don't go it alone.

543
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 3: Do not go it alone.

544
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:19,880
Speaker 6: And I thought of you guys so specifically, and I'm

545
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:22,679
Speaker 6: glad we are not going all of this mess.

546
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:26,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, everybody, proverbial group, hug if you want to join

547
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:29,200
Speaker 2: us eight eight eight three one crime and keep the

548
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:33,159
Speaker 2: talkbacks coming. We have a lot of swag conversations to

549
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 2: get to tonight as well, and we have most importantly,

550
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:39,360
Speaker 2: though far more importantly, we have Lisa Phillips, who is

551
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 2: an Epstein survivor, joining us tonight to share period the end.

552
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:46,520
Speaker 3: Let's go to a talk back. Now, Hey all, this

553
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 3: is Gina and Florida.

554
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 11: I just wanted to say hi, and I wanted to say,

555
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 11: it's so nice to hear Stephanie's beautiful voice again, have

556
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 11: a great evening.

557
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 2: Oh gee, that was such a great You have such

558
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,840
Speaker 2: a beautiful voice, so b in joyful.

559
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:02,440
Speaker 3: What is your secret?

560
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 2: If anybody has any joy to share or wisdom to

561
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:08,720
Speaker 2: give in honor of what Courtney just shared, So yeah,

562
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 2: we'd like to hear. It's something to settle up the score.

563
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,000
Speaker 2: With all the dark things that we are surrounded by,

564
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 2: it seems another talk back now.

565
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 11: Hi guys, You guys are just talking to Jared Farantino

566
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:22,200
Speaker 11: about kind of the behind the scenes from a courtroom,

567
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:26,600
Speaker 11: the way people dress, witnesses or whoever's on trial. If

568
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 11: you haven't already caught it, please please catch the show

569
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 11: Bull Bull. It is amazing and it'll give you some

570
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:38,720
Speaker 11: insight to Jerry consulting and aesthetic.

571
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:41,680
Speaker 3: It's funny, I have not seen that show. My mom

572
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 3: loved that show. Really, we have also watching it.

573
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:50,160
Speaker 4: I don't think it's on anymore, but she loved I

574
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 4: never ever saw a single episode because she would always just.

575
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 3: Watch it in her room. Oh my god.

576
00:29:55,720 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 2: She was mom of potential legal easem big true crime fan.

577
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:03,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, follows. It was a big true crime fan.

578
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,680
Speaker 3: That's where I got it. I mean, of course apples

579
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 3: and trees.

580
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 2: Well, maybe we should all start watching Bull in her

581
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:11,960
Speaker 2: honor at the talk back.

582
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:15,280
Speaker 4: But it's all about from my understanding, very limited understanding,

583
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:17,680
Speaker 4: because sometimes when my mom would talk, I would be like, well, okay,

584
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:21,280
Speaker 4: you know what I mean. Like, but my understanding is

585
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:27,600
Speaker 4: all about jury science, like the study of psychology of jury,

586
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:30,160
Speaker 4: like picking a jury huge.

587
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:34,160
Speaker 6: One of my favorite Definitely We've talked about this for

588
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:35,080
Speaker 6: how many times.

589
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,080
Speaker 3: I love it. I love it fascinating.

590
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:42,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, the science or the psychology really of hand picking

591
00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:45,800
Speaker 2: a sampling of people. It's not so different than probably

592
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:49,760
Speaker 2: casting even know you are casting the juror because you

593
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:53,640
Speaker 2: are trying to imagine what they're going to think and like,

594
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 2: will your will, what you're presenting fly with that particular

595
00:30:58,040 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 2: sample of people.

596
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:01,920
Speaker 6: Well, and it's the same of also how you present

597
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 6: if you are in court. You know, Jared had mentioned

598
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 6: Diddy coming in, you know, with the mister Rogers sweaters,

599
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:12,720
Speaker 6: and he said it would have been probably a bad

600
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:15,920
Speaker 6: look had he come in with sunglasses and a fur coat.

601
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:17,720
Speaker 3: Like he's not taking it seriously.

602
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 2: In a bottle of booze, Sarah.

603
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 3: But I spent about a year and a half working

604
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:27,240
Speaker 3: for an attorney and it was so interesting. Did you

605
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 3: really Oh, I can't see you. You're so well versed.

606
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 3: I've had a lot of guess she is. She's a

607
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:36,800
Speaker 3: super smarty pants.

608
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:38,920
Speaker 6: What is it? Blah blah blah, master of none, jack

609
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 6: of all trades, master.

610
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 3: And none, every army like, oh, I used to do that.

611
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:44,960
Speaker 3: I'm like what, Yeah?

612
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 2: She always it always says like for three years before

613
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 2: You're like, how is that humanly possible?

614
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 3: You were?

615
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:53,200
Speaker 2: She's been at it a minute now, and I feel

616
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:54,880
Speaker 2: like we've logged some years with her as well.

617
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 3: So I've had like one job my whole life.

618
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:04,040
Speaker 6: But very, very briefly, it was I was in an

619
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:08,800
Speaker 6: eight week trial and it was it was two partners

620
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 6: in a medical company who were suing each other, and

621
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:15,240
Speaker 6: the attorney work was representing one.

622
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 3: Anyway, the the.

623
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 6: Defendant's wife, she wore a different outfit every day, and

624
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 6: she mentioned that she's like, I want to make positive

625
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 6: that I wear a different outfit every day, and the

626
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:30,960
Speaker 6: attorney was like, I really wish you wouldn't, because you

627
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:35,280
Speaker 6: don't want to show off exact Sandely.

628
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:38,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're more focused on your clothing than the crime

629
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:39,680
Speaker 2: that you're being held.

630
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 3: It doesn't everybody wear a different out every day. I

631
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:43,480
Speaker 3: don't wear the same clothes to work every day. What

632
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 3: do you mean?

633
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:44,640
Speaker 12: She was?

634
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 3: But she was flash she was you know, she didn't

635
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:50,360
Speaker 3: want to well dress.

636
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:55,640
Speaker 6: She did not repeat the same outfits of nice ones.

637
00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:57,880
Speaker 3: Oh give me a tasteful.

638
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:02,200
Speaker 6: So not even flashy, but wealthy, which just makes you

639
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:03,360
Speaker 6: a little less sympathetic.

640
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 3: Too much would be very cash.

641
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:07,480
Speaker 4: If I was in a jury, I'd be like, I'm

642
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:09,840
Speaker 4: a little judgy judge here, like do you really need

643
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 4: this six million dollars right now?

644
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:13,040
Speaker 3: That's exactly real. Yeah.

645
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:15,240
Speaker 2: It's like I'm sure you guys were discussing this the

646
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:19,959
Speaker 2: O pair, I mean, talk about the under a life starting.

647
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm with you guys. Jd As

648
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 2: going to the library of school of make unders. I know,

649
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 2: add some glasses and bangs. It's like that doesn't fly,

650
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:35,560
Speaker 2: even Casey Anthony, you know they all went through for women.

651
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:39,240
Speaker 2: It becomes this dowdy pass. And I say that lovingly.

652
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 2: I mean we are talking about convicted killers, so I

653
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 2: feel like this is not unkind to say, but you

654
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:48,080
Speaker 2: know they go from like fly you know, flashy blonde shells,

655
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:51,080
Speaker 2: you know, with bleach blonde hair and the tatas out

656
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 2: and then you know behind in the courtroom, you know

657
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:55,720
Speaker 2: they're dressed like librarians.

658
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:56,720
Speaker 3: Their hair is dark.

659
00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:00,880
Speaker 4: Now I mean it's make up, numbers up glasses.

660
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:05,840
Speaker 13: Yeah, yeah, she stood out or even the demeanor with

661
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:10,239
Speaker 13: Bill Cosby or Haste, like they both kind of came

662
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:11,920
Speaker 13: into the courtroom like.

663
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:17,759
Speaker 3: Like little wobbly old men. Unbelievable, these people. Spare me,

664
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 3: we do we have Hey, what's up? Dream team? We're

665
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:23,479
Speaker 3: having to work.

666
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:26,840
Speaker 14: And I was wondering if you guys have an opinion

667
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:30,520
Speaker 14: on the Lindsay Clancy case out of Massachusetts. So she's

668
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 14: accused mom of killing her three kids, but there's like

669
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:37,040
Speaker 14: the mental health side of it, and then she's been

670
00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:40,280
Speaker 14: asking for help and her husband said she was asking

671
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:42,359
Speaker 14: for help and blah blah blah blah blah. But at

672
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:44,680
Speaker 14: the end of the day, she killed her kids. So like,

673
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:48,120
Speaker 14: where do you go from here? Emily from north of Boston.

674
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:57,600
Speaker 15: Hey, Betty, Betty, Betty is right, but you can't even

675
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 15: get Betty to listen because Eddy's in bed.

676
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 3: I do know about this case, so I do know

677
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:03,440
Speaker 3: about it.

678
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:07,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, so she strangled her three kids and then she

679
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,239
Speaker 4: tried to jump out like a bedroom window, but it

680
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:11,360
Speaker 4: was only like two stories.

681
00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 3: I mean, come on, it's not going to kill you,

682
00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 3: but it's going to severely injure you.

683
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 4: Right right, So they her attorneys are expected to argue

684
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:23,440
Speaker 4: that her she's been charged obviously, and attorneys are expected

685
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:26,319
Speaker 4: to argue that, you know, this is a result of

686
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:31,319
Speaker 4: severe postpartum depression. And listen, where do we go from here?

687
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:35,640
Speaker 4: Excellent question? Did you guys know that when women have

688
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:38,839
Speaker 4: heart attacks? You know how we've always been told if

689
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,279
Speaker 4: your left arm goes numb, you know that's from you know,

690
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:44,799
Speaker 4: do you know women don't experience that. It's men that

691
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:48,759
Speaker 4: experience right that way.

692
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:50,319
Speaker 3: Do I smell toast? Is that a thing?

693
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:50,719
Speaker 5: Oh?

694
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:52,680
Speaker 3: Wait? Do you smell toast right now? No?

695
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,759
Speaker 2: But I thought if you smell burnt toast, that is

696
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:57,960
Speaker 2: a signal. By the way, clearly, I'm not a doctor

697
00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:01,680
Speaker 2: or a nurse or a less sug a stroke as well.

698
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 3: Point in bringing this up is that our entire medical

699
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:08,200
Speaker 3: nolunity based around men and men.

700
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:10,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, and so we need and I don't mean that

701
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:13,440
Speaker 4: is a slight towards men by any stretch of the imagination.

702
00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:17,040
Speaker 4: I don't mean that we need more help for women, right,

703
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:19,799
Speaker 4: So maybe the place we go here is like, let's

704
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:22,640
Speaker 4: try to figure out as a society how to help

705
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:23,920
Speaker 4: postpartum depression.

706
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:26,240
Speaker 2: You talked about just as you were getting on tonight,

707
00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 2: you were feeling like, oh my goodness, this is a

708
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:31,359
Speaker 2: tough time to be perimetopausas. And you know, and that's

709
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:34,680
Speaker 2: hormones maybe, and that's real. Imagine now three times three

710
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:38,160
Speaker 2: kids in the hormones are raging. You know, your world

711
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:42,200
Speaker 2: can become very clogged and cloudy, and it's a tough one.

712
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:45,880
Speaker 2: I too know this case, and it's like, now, what

713
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 2: is really I guess, you know, hopefully we can. I

714
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:51,840
Speaker 2: think it's important that we talk about it because maybe

715
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:54,399
Speaker 2: there's a before there is and now what we can

716
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:57,239
Speaker 2: make some change in this case? I mean, look, she

717
00:36:57,280 --> 00:36:58,960
Speaker 2: has to kind of come to terms with the fact

718
00:36:59,000 --> 00:36:59,840
Speaker 2: of what she's done.

719
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:02,879
Speaker 3: Right, can there be worse? Hell? Knowing you killed your

720
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:03,719
Speaker 3: own kids.

721
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 4: On top of everything, the dad of the kids, that

722
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:12,760
Speaker 4: her husband, her husband, he is suing her medical providers

723
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:15,560
Speaker 4: because she was begging for help. She was asking for help,

724
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:20,360
Speaker 4: but apparently they over medicated her, and you know, apparently

725
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:23,359
Speaker 4: that's also kind of maybe made her deteriorate a little bit.

726
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 2: And then when you look at the Nick Reiner case

727
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:31,640
Speaker 2: for example, who again was allegedly you know, we remember

728
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:36,680
Speaker 2: he killed his parents, horrible mental illness clearly at play.

729
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:37,440
Speaker 3: What do you do?

730
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 2: You just put them in a locked room that's padded

731
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:42,839
Speaker 2: till the end of days because it's a mental health crisis.

732
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:45,640
Speaker 2: There's no coming back from it. You killed your kids,

733
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:49,279
Speaker 2: that is punishable. You do the crime. There's some time, right,

734
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:52,359
Speaker 2: a lifetime of it. But what could we have seen

735
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:54,839
Speaker 2: earlier that could have prevented that from happening? I think

736
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:56,920
Speaker 2: is such an important part of this case.

737
00:37:57,320 --> 00:37:59,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I mean mental health across the board, men

738
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,080
Speaker 4: and women. It's so misunderstood. But and you have to

739
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:04,560
Speaker 4: think of, like how I look at it is, if

740
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:07,800
Speaker 4: you get cancer, or if I meet somebody with cancer,

741
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:09,760
Speaker 4: I'm not like, well what did you do to get cancer?

742
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 3: You know what I mean? Right?

743
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:16,320
Speaker 16: But if you have like depression or postpartum or schizophrenia,

744
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:20,719
Speaker 16: I mean across the board, right, Yeah, every society as

745
00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:23,879
Speaker 16: a wholes like oh, they're they're they're little nuts, they're

746
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:27,920
Speaker 16: a little rigger that it's still an organ. Your brain

747
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:30,760
Speaker 16: is an organ, right, and that's what makes your mind

748
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:31,360
Speaker 16: what it is.

749
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:31,719
Speaker 3: Right.

750
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:35,759
Speaker 6: No, and I don't host Partum psychosis is a thing.

751
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:36,720
Speaker 3: It's a rare basiness.

752
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:41,440
Speaker 6: Actually it's I mean in the most layman's terms. I

753
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:44,279
Speaker 6: am obviously not a doctor, but you know, it's postpartum

754
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:48,240
Speaker 6: depression amped up about a million degrees to a psychosis

755
00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 6: that can send you into suicidal ideation and also body.

756
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:55,120
Speaker 6: I don't know if you had remembered all the sort

757
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 6: of details. Yes, Lindsay Clancy jumped out of a second

758
00:38:58,680 --> 00:38:59,600
Speaker 6: story window.

759
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:03,359
Speaker 3: She also had cut her wrists and her neck and

760
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:04,960
Speaker 3: her neck and her neck.

761
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:10,200
Speaker 6: She also is paralyzed from the Sternham down. She's been

762
00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:12,680
Speaker 6: through it. Yeah, And have you guys seen the movie.

763
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:17,719
Speaker 6: It's Jennifer Lawrence is starring in it called I My Love.

764
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:20,279
Speaker 3: I really want to say, it's very dark.

765
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:23,759
Speaker 2: It's very dark, you know, tread lightly. I was like,

766
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:26,239
Speaker 2: I chose it to watch with my my parents on

767
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:27,000
Speaker 2: Christmas Day.

768
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:31,400
Speaker 3: It was like totally down her mind. But it's you know,

769
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:35,920
Speaker 3: you say.

770
00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:43,319
Speaker 4: Die hard, it's Christmas.

771
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:48,920
Speaker 3: The excresses. True, I know, truely, they were like, we

772
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:50,040
Speaker 3: were too deep in.

773
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:53,239
Speaker 2: She's a really great actress, right, and it starts with

774
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:54,480
Speaker 2: like heavy.

775
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:57,000
Speaker 3: Sex right at the jump, like naked your.

776
00:39:56,880 --> 00:40:01,279
Speaker 6: Parents Christmas Jesus is very it does say it.

777
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:04,080
Speaker 2: It sounds even weirder than it was, and it was weird.

778
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:07,360
Speaker 3: But it.

779
00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:13,919
Speaker 2: Is based on her experience with postpartum that I've seen

780
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:17,200
Speaker 2: interviews of Jennifer Lawrence, who after her second child, also

781
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:20,920
Speaker 2: said she was struggling with postpartum while you know, making

782
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:24,239
Speaker 2: and completing this film, which is also based on you know,

783
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:27,759
Speaker 2: extreme postpartum, which is important to talk about. You know,

784
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 2: I didn't personally have that personally have that experience, but

785
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:33,560
Speaker 2: boy I had a lot of others you know, that

786
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:36,480
Speaker 2: come at you really surprising. You're like, wait, this is

787
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:39,600
Speaker 2: what everyone's been going through, AKNOWD told me. And you know,

788
00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:41,600
Speaker 2: you're supposed to be so happy and enjoyful and this

789
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:44,120
Speaker 2: is the happiest time and when it's not that, I

790
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:46,560
Speaker 2: think people are afraid to speak up because it somehow

791
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:49,279
Speaker 2: seems like there's shame attached to that, which of course

792
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:51,239
Speaker 2: there's not, and we've all talked about it. It's really

793
00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:53,800
Speaker 2: hard to get healthcare right now, or to get mental

794
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:57,840
Speaker 2: health care especially, So imagine your three kids talking at you.

795
00:40:57,840 --> 00:40:58,880
Speaker 3: You're asking for help.

796
00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:02,440
Speaker 2: I'm not excusing, which she did obviously, but it seems

797
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:05,560
Speaker 2: like only somebody really on the edge of we still.

798
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:07,720
Speaker 3: Have enough psychiatrists and psychologists in the schedule.

799
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:10,439
Speaker 6: Although to that end, I did want to go back

800
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:12,319
Speaker 6: to Emily to answer you, So, what do you make

801
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:15,680
Speaker 6: of it, Oh, this is Courtney. I make of it

802
00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:19,719
Speaker 6: that it is a terrible and not just a tragedy,

803
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:24,319
Speaker 6: but potentially a preventable one, and these kids are never

804
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:24,959
Speaker 6: coming back.

805
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:28,400
Speaker 3: That's not happening ever. But I actually really.

806
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:33,400
Speaker 6: Respect the fact that her husband is suing the doctors,

807
00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:36,759
Speaker 6: even if it's to raise hopefully awareness and raise the

808
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:40,080
Speaker 6: bar of when people are asking for help keep in

809
00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:40,640
Speaker 6: mind them.

810
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:42,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, and for the husband, think about it.

811
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:45,279
Speaker 2: You know, your wife, she's you know, carrying on, but

812
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:48,399
Speaker 2: she's also exhausted three kids and jobs. You know, it's

813
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:51,240
Speaker 2: so easily explained away. Sometimes when you're in the beehive

814
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:53,880
Speaker 2: with somebody, you know, people say all kinds of things, Oh,

815
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:55,680
Speaker 2: I need help, but you don't think they need help,

816
00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:59,000
Speaker 2: you know, like you don't. Sometimes that line can seem

817
00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:02,400
Speaker 2: like someone's being dramatic or we don't hear it for

818
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:03,839
Speaker 2: what it is. You think they just need a good

819
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:06,160
Speaker 2: night's sleep. You don't think they're going to murder your

820
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:10,000
Speaker 2: three children, you know, right around the corner. So you know,

821
00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:12,480
Speaker 2: we have to make sure we're hearing things as they are,

822
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:15,920
Speaker 2: which you know, candidly, that's hard to do sometimes when

823
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:17,000
Speaker 2: you're close to somebody.

824
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:20,360
Speaker 3: How old are the kids? Do we know? Five? Three

825
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:21,720
Speaker 3: and eight months old?

826
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:25,600
Speaker 2: This is eight months A tough one.

827
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:30,120
Speaker 3: That's tragic. So it's I mean the first this isn't

828
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:35,000
Speaker 3: the first incident. Member that one mother sets in the bathtub. Yeah,

829
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:39,400
Speaker 3: Susan Smith vividly. Yeah, that's a different one. Actually, Susan

830
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:43,960
Speaker 3: Smith is the one that put them in the station wagon. Yeah.

831
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:46,600
Speaker 4: I think her name is something Susan though, the woman

832
00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:49,840
Speaker 4: that I'm talking about carrying angela terrible remember.

833
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:52,680
Speaker 3: But again, like I think we can figure out.

834
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:54,560
Speaker 2: I don't know what the answer is, but boy, if

835
00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:57,160
Speaker 2: somebody does, we should all share our stories.

836
00:42:57,520 --> 00:43:01,919
Speaker 6: Yeah, please well listen, please do aund because not only

837
00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:05,240
Speaker 6: are the Epstein files back in the headlines, but we're

838
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:09,480
Speaker 6: really thrilled and honored that Epstein survivor Lisa Phillips will

839
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:16,320
Speaker 6: be joining us, so stick around True Crime tonight.

840
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:28,720
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

841
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:32,000
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker. I'm here

842
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:35,279
Speaker 2: with Courtney Armstrong and body move in. And if you

843
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:38,760
Speaker 2: want to join the conversation eight eight eight three one crime,

844
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 2: and we hope you do because we have such an

845
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:45,439
Speaker 2: important special guest joining us this evening, Lisa Phillips, who

846
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:50,200
Speaker 2: is an Epstein survivor and an advocate and also the

847
00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:53,080
Speaker 2: host of the podcast From Now On, which is an

848
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:56,680
Speaker 2: important podcast that we really urge anybody who's been the

849
00:43:57,239 --> 00:44:01,400
Speaker 2: victim of abuse to listen to worries of all kinds

850
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:05,200
Speaker 2: of survival. And I personally believe we have to share

851
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:08,960
Speaker 2: more right in order to feel less alone in the

852
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:11,600
Speaker 2: corner right, And it takes a certain level of bravery.

853
00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:16,040
Speaker 2: And long before the Epstein files were at the tip

854
00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:19,040
Speaker 2: of our tongues and something that was maybe even on

855
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:22,359
Speaker 2: our radar, there are the victims that really lived it

856
00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:26,600
Speaker 2: real time and have been screaming for the rooftops for

857
00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:31,839
Speaker 2: frankly decades. And it appears that that reckoning is here

858
00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:33,399
Speaker 2: and unfortunately.

859
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:34,800
Speaker 3: You know, we can't look away.

860
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:38,440
Speaker 2: And I say unfortunately because you know, for someone like

861
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:41,879
Speaker 2: Lisa Phillips, it's been such a long road, right and

862
00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:44,960
Speaker 2: now here we are and I think, and I hope

863
00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:49,439
Speaker 2: you're you're feeling, Lisa, the love and the support of

864
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:53,440
Speaker 2: men and women everywhere who really want you to know

865
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:56,120
Speaker 2: that A you are not alone, and we are so

866
00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:59,240
Speaker 2: so impressed and proud. Let's toss you an audio clip

867
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:02,320
Speaker 2: before we officially touch base with Lisa.

868
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:05,839
Speaker 17: Epstein was not just a serial predator. He was an

869
00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:11,440
Speaker 17: international human trafficker. And many around him knew, many participated,

870
00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:17,080
Speaker 17: and many profited, and yet he was protected. So I

871
00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:21,440
Speaker 17: stand here today for every woman who has been silenced, exploited,

872
00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:25,920
Speaker 17: and dismissed. We are not asking for pity. We are

873
00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:32,600
Speaker 17: here demanding accountability and I'm demanding justice. Congress must choose,

874
00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:36,160
Speaker 17: will you continue to protect predators or will you finally

875
00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:37,480
Speaker 17: protect survivors?

876
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:42,880
Speaker 3: Wow? That is so powerful. I got chills too. It

877
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:46,120
Speaker 3: gets me choked up. That was good, Lisa, Thank you

878
00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:46,840
Speaker 3: so much.

879
00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:50,919
Speaker 7: Thank you for having me. You're right listening back to that.

880
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:52,560
Speaker 7: That does sound and give me chills too.

881
00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:56,399
Speaker 3: It's a rally call it's a rally call.

882
00:45:56,800 --> 00:45:59,520
Speaker 2: And are you feeling it like there you were on Congress,

883
00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:01,080
Speaker 2: you know, I know you were jumping in.

884
00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:02,759
Speaker 3: I don't want to step on you. Yeah.

885
00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:05,959
Speaker 6: First of all, what did it feel like standing there

886
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:08,160
Speaker 6: that day, that pivotal moment?

887
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:08,920
Speaker 3: What was that like?

888
00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:12,600
Speaker 7: Very scary? I was shaking. You can even hear my

889
00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:16,120
Speaker 7: voice cracking. I was scared out of my mind because

890
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:20,960
Speaker 7: you go in dealing being a survivor, you go in

891
00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:24,359
Speaker 7: with a lot of shame and you feel like you're

892
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:29,759
Speaker 7: going to be judged. And it ended up being the

893
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:32,520
Speaker 7: most powerful moment of my life. It turned out way

894
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:36,040
Speaker 7: better than I ever expected. I was there in support

895
00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:39,839
Speaker 7: of survivors of Epstein, But what came out of that

896
00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:43,320
Speaker 7: was I was a support system for so many people

897
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:47,120
Speaker 7: around the world that have experienced all different types of

898
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:51,160
Speaker 7: sexual abuse or violence. And I had such an outpouring

899
00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:55,120
Speaker 7: of love after that, tens of thousands of messages from

900
00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:57,520
Speaker 7: so many people had never even told a soul.

901
00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:00,759
Speaker 12: About what they had gone through reaching.

902
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:03,080
Speaker 7: Out to me and the other survivors, and so it

903
00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:05,320
Speaker 7: was a very powerful moment. Wow.

904
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:08,440
Speaker 2: And the bravery, I mean, the idea that there's real

905
00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 2: change happening I mean real time, so bring us, you know,

906
00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:15,120
Speaker 2: before we go back in time, even just starting with today,

907
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:19,360
Speaker 2: are you feeling like the veil is being lifted finally?

908
00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:21,800
Speaker 3: Because we're all kne deep in these.

909
00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:23,520
Speaker 2: Files, and I got to tell you it is some

910
00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:26,640
Speaker 2: scary stuff in a I hope you're feeling like you

911
00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:31,520
Speaker 2: guys are being vindicated and you're feeling like, finally, this

912
00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:32,240
Speaker 2: is the moment.

913
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:34,160
Speaker 3: Is that accurate?

914
00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:39,280
Speaker 7: It is accurate. Every month since September, we are getting closer.

915
00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:43,680
Speaker 7: It's a hard fight. I never thought today we would

916
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:47,839
Speaker 7: be here from September, but it's because of so many

917
00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:51,600
Speaker 7: survivors and so many of the American people really behind

918
00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:54,480
Speaker 7: it all. Even MAGA has turned a little bit, you know,

919
00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:58,280
Speaker 7: it all right behind this push to say, wait a second,

920
00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:03,160
Speaker 7: something's not right here, young women, teenagers and now that

921
00:48:03,239 --> 00:48:06,719
Speaker 7: we know from these files being released, children, and so

922
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:11,319
Speaker 7: it's shocking, it's disgusting. It makes you angry, it makes

923
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:14,440
Speaker 7: everyone angry. And so my nervous system has not been

924
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:17,000
Speaker 7: okay since Friday, since that big drop on Friday.

925
00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:18,680
Speaker 3: And it's funny.

926
00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:20,680
Speaker 2: Last night we were saying, as a call to attention,

927
00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:22,960
Speaker 2: like let's really be mindful and spooned through them. There's

928
00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:24,840
Speaker 2: so much to still get through. But I got to

929
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:27,400
Speaker 2: tell you, it's there's stuff that's just really hard to

930
00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:32,160
Speaker 2: unsee as well, just ten years old, eleven year it's unbearable. Frankly,

931
00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:34,919
Speaker 2: I can only imagine how difficult it must be for you.

932
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:37,680
Speaker 2: And thank you, I guess, thank you for fighting the

933
00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:39,279
Speaker 2: fight on behalf of so many.

934
00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:43,080
Speaker 7: Thank you for saying that. You know, the whole reason

935
00:48:43,120 --> 00:48:45,120
Speaker 7: why I started speaking out from the beginning was to

936
00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:48,880
Speaker 7: support these survivors because I believe them, and I always

937
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:51,080
Speaker 7: believe them. It took me a long time to get

938
00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:53,960
Speaker 7: to my story, and it's taken me. Every year I

939
00:48:54,040 --> 00:48:57,600
Speaker 7: find out more and more devastating news, things that I

940
00:48:57,719 --> 00:48:59,759
Speaker 7: just didn't know, that didn't make sense to me back then.

941
00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:04,440
Speaker 7: But now I'm starting to understand the bigger picture and

942
00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:07,600
Speaker 7: it needs to be out there. But it's it's it's

943
00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:09,920
Speaker 7: it's hard. It's hard for people to understand.

944
00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:13,800
Speaker 6: And Lisa, you speak to how large of a scale

945
00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:16,680
Speaker 6: of everything that was going on that you couldn't even

946
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:20,239
Speaker 6: the bigger picture appreciate at the time, and you know,

947
00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:25,000
Speaker 6: we're now learning how many countries and continents are involved.

948
00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:28,080
Speaker 3: Does it feel is it justifying.

949
00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:31,640
Speaker 6: That even people from all every corner of the world

950
00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:33,480
Speaker 6: is now being involved in this.

951
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:36,960
Speaker 7: Well, I mean just because I was around for those

952
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:41,640
Speaker 7: years and I heard stories from from the victims, and then,

953
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:43,600
Speaker 7: you know, after I started speaking out, I learned so

954
00:49:43,719 --> 00:49:46,879
Speaker 7: many stories from the underage girls. And then I grew

955
00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:49,719
Speaker 7: up in Europe half my life, so I had a

956
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:54,080
Speaker 7: stronger connection with Eastern European women, in which there were

957
00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:56,800
Speaker 7: so many, hundreds and hundreds of them, and they're the

958
00:49:56,880 --> 00:50:00,840
Speaker 7: most silent of them. And then my career career after

959
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:03,600
Speaker 7: right before I started the podcast, my career was a

960
00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:06,400
Speaker 7: scout for big model agencies, and I would work with

961
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:09,279
Speaker 7: Eastern European I would fly there Croatia and brought us

962
00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:13,360
Speaker 7: Lava and Poland, and the girls would still tell me

963
00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:16,240
Speaker 7: how terrified they were to speak out about their abuse.

964
00:50:16,560 --> 00:50:19,120
Speaker 7: So a lot of people don't realize that I have

965
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:23,719
Speaker 7: had my you know, connections since the early two thousands

966
00:50:23,719 --> 00:50:26,880
Speaker 7: of so many different groups of women and walks of

967
00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:30,600
Speaker 7: life that are vastly different. The women in New York

968
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:33,120
Speaker 7: were vastly different from the underage girls of Florida and

969
00:50:33,160 --> 00:50:37,440
Speaker 7: the Eastern Europeans. And Epstein had his tentacles in everything

970
00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:42,440
Speaker 7: tech academia right, the entertainment world, the modeling world very deeply,

971
00:50:43,640 --> 00:50:47,239
Speaker 7: you know, and these pageants. So there was Yeah, there

972
00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:52,799
Speaker 7: was just so many layers. And I always wanted somehow

973
00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:56,319
Speaker 7: just to get the American people to understand, well probably

974
00:50:56,400 --> 00:50:59,960
Speaker 7: never really going to understand, but just to have been

975
00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:05,640
Speaker 7: be able to go through those files and be a

976
00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:08,080
Speaker 7: detective on their own and connect the dots. Because DJ

977
00:51:08,239 --> 00:51:10,080
Speaker 7: is not going to do it, so we have to

978
00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:10,320
Speaker 7: do it.

979
00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:13,439
Speaker 2: Well, take us to the beginning if if you can,

980
00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:16,080
Speaker 2: you know, whatever you're comfortable sharing. But I think it's

981
00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:19,040
Speaker 2: important for our audience to you know, many of whom

982
00:51:19,080 --> 00:51:22,680
Speaker 2: have had their own slices and you know, experiences both

983
00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:26,520
Speaker 2: good and bed of their own. How did this whole

984
00:51:26,560 --> 00:51:27,960
Speaker 2: relationship with Epstein begin?

985
00:51:28,719 --> 00:51:30,920
Speaker 12: Okay, so Epstein has an.

986
00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:33,040
Speaker 7: Mo o out of I would think that you know,

987
00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:36,160
Speaker 7: twelve hundred plus survivors, we all kind of have the

988
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:40,320
Speaker 7: same story, just you know, started at different different cities

989
00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:44,280
Speaker 7: and different people involved. But his mom is the same.

990
00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:48,400
Speaker 7: It's a manipulation and grooming and if you see things

991
00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:52,480
Speaker 7: or experience things, he doesn't let you out of his orbit.

992
00:51:52,719 --> 00:51:55,400
Speaker 7: So I was I was no different. And I understand

993
00:51:55,440 --> 00:51:58,680
Speaker 7: this now, but didn't understand it then. So back to

994
00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:01,360
Speaker 7: early two thousand, I was a young fashion model in

995
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:04,120
Speaker 7: New York. I had graduated high school in Belgium. So

996
00:52:04,200 --> 00:52:06,640
Speaker 7: my father worked at NATO, and you know, worked my

997
00:52:06,680 --> 00:52:08,839
Speaker 7: way up in the madeling business, worked in Europe, and

998
00:52:08,880 --> 00:52:11,719
Speaker 7: then went to South Africa and Miami, and then you know,

999
00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:14,439
Speaker 7: got my book good enough to go with a top

1000
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:17,040
Speaker 7: modeling to see in New York City. I went there,

1001
00:52:17,280 --> 00:52:18,400
Speaker 7: you know, living the dream.

1002
00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:20,600
Speaker 12: And this is back when models were real models. We

1003
00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:21,719
Speaker 12: weren't influencers, you know.

1004
00:52:21,680 --> 00:52:24,520
Speaker 7: So we made great money. There weren't that many of us.

1005
00:52:24,560 --> 00:52:26,520
Speaker 7: It was a couple hundred, I mean a few hundred

1006
00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:29,720
Speaker 7: at that time, and everyone came from all around the world.

1007
00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:33,080
Speaker 7: And I just was living a dream and I felt

1008
00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:37,320
Speaker 7: really healthy. I had a great upbreaking, you know, great parents.

1009
00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:40,880
Speaker 7: And so I booked a job and I flew with

1010
00:52:40,920 --> 00:52:44,640
Speaker 7: the Eastern European model down to the British West Indies

1011
00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:47,319
Speaker 7: and did the photo shooting for a few days. And

1012
00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:50,640
Speaker 7: then on our last day we had a free day

1013
00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:53,239
Speaker 7: and the other model said to me, you know, I

1014
00:52:53,280 --> 00:52:56,319
Speaker 7: have a friend who has an island nearby and I

1015
00:52:56,360 --> 00:52:57,840
Speaker 7: spoke to him and told him I was here, and

1016
00:52:57,880 --> 00:52:59,680
Speaker 7: he was like, I'll send you a boat over, and

1017
00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:01,759
Speaker 7: she was would you come with me? And I was

1018
00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:03,919
Speaker 7: just like, well, you know, this photographer is kind of creepy.

1019
00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:08,359
Speaker 7: I don't want to be here all by myself. I know,

1020
00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:12,600
Speaker 7: one must we'll do another, yes, And so I just said,

1021
00:53:12,600 --> 00:53:14,720
Speaker 7: you know, I'll go with you, you know, not thinking anything.

1022
00:53:14,760 --> 00:53:16,600
Speaker 7: I'll go hang out on the island. You know who

1023
00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:19,319
Speaker 7: doesn't want to do that? Yeah, right. So I was

1024
00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:21,160
Speaker 7: just like, okay, I'll go with you. And so the

1025
00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:23,759
Speaker 7: boat was sent to us in the morning and we

1026
00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:25,880
Speaker 7: got on the boat, just the two girls, her and

1027
00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:29,560
Speaker 7: I and went over to Epstein's Island and it was

1028
00:53:29,600 --> 00:53:32,560
Speaker 7: a normal day. I met two other young girls on

1029
00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:36,680
Speaker 7: the island, blonde girls. The other model who took me

1030
00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:39,680
Speaker 7: was a young blonde girl. You know, I'm this multi racial,

1031
00:53:39,719 --> 00:53:42,400
Speaker 7: mixed raced girl who grew up in Europe in the States,

1032
00:53:42,440 --> 00:53:47,239
Speaker 7: and you know, so I was I looked different from them,

1033
00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:51,319
Speaker 7: but we became friends and we hung out on the

1034
00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:54,600
Speaker 7: island and fun things. But I noticed on the island

1035
00:53:54,680 --> 00:53:57,880
Speaker 7: there was an older gentleman there and he was frolicking

1036
00:53:57,880 --> 00:54:00,600
Speaker 7: in the pool with a much younger girl. So I

1037
00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:04,239
Speaker 7: did notice that. And and then later on a few

1038
00:54:04,239 --> 00:54:06,359
Speaker 7: hours later, when we got ready for dinner, we all

1039
00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:09,279
Speaker 7: went to a dinner table and sat down and you know,

1040
00:54:09,440 --> 00:54:11,680
Speaker 7: started hanging out with the girls and just talking about

1041
00:54:11,680 --> 00:54:16,319
Speaker 7: regular kid stuff, you know, and and you know, it

1042
00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:22,800
Speaker 7: was a young vibe. Yeah, And then walked in Jeffrey Epstein.

1043
00:54:22,719 --> 00:54:25,480
Speaker 12: And I remember, you know, looking at him and being like,

1044
00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:27,279
Speaker 12: you know, he had a.

1045
00:54:27,440 --> 00:54:30,239
Speaker 7: Very big presence to him, and you know, this little

1046
00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:33,320
Speaker 7: grin and was excited to meet me and sat next

1047
00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:35,400
Speaker 7: to me and couldn't wait to ask me questions and

1048
00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:37,360
Speaker 7: see who this new girl was because he had already

1049
00:54:37,400 --> 00:54:41,080
Speaker 7: known everybody else. And so he started asking me questions

1050
00:54:41,120 --> 00:54:44,920
Speaker 7: that I always say when when people ask you the situation,

1051
00:54:45,480 --> 00:54:48,040
Speaker 7: I will always remember that he asked me questions that

1052
00:54:48,440 --> 00:54:54,200
Speaker 7: most men have never asked me. So, oh yeah, because

1053
00:54:54,239 --> 00:54:56,640
Speaker 7: I'm thinking, oh my gosh, this guy cares about me.

1054
00:54:56,719 --> 00:55:00,160
Speaker 7: He's interested, he's deep. He's not like trying to you

1055
00:55:00,520 --> 00:55:03,280
Speaker 7: get in my pants. He's just like a father figure,

1056
00:55:03,320 --> 00:55:04,600
Speaker 7: a mentor, which.

1057
00:55:04,440 --> 00:55:06,280
Speaker 12: Is what the other girls described him as.

1058
00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:09,160
Speaker 7: And he asked me about my childhood and how I grew.

1059
00:55:08,960 --> 00:55:11,320
Speaker 12: Up and was in my relationship with my father?

1060
00:55:11,600 --> 00:55:13,520
Speaker 7: Did he call you a lot? Did he paid attention

1061
00:55:13,600 --> 00:55:16,000
Speaker 7: to you? And all these things that pulled on my

1062
00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:18,920
Speaker 7: heartstrings because I had a wonderful father who gave me

1063
00:55:18,960 --> 00:55:21,600
Speaker 7: everything I wanted, but I didn't have an emotional bond

1064
00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:23,319
Speaker 7: with him. And you know, he never called me and

1065
00:55:23,400 --> 00:55:25,840
Speaker 7: checked up on me. And so I had.

1066
00:55:25,640 --> 00:55:27,640
Speaker 12: This conversation we all did about like our.

1067
00:55:27,560 --> 00:55:29,759
Speaker 7: Fathers, and all of us kind of had fathers that

1068
00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:33,680
Speaker 7: were like that. So he kind of filled that role,

1069
00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:35,960
Speaker 7: I guess, and asked me, well, what are you interested

1070
00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:37,800
Speaker 7: in life? What are your ambitions? What are your goals?

1071
00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:41,080
Speaker 7: And I told him and and you know when he

1072
00:55:41,120 --> 00:55:43,600
Speaker 7: asked me about growing up, I said, well I had

1073
00:55:44,080 --> 00:55:46,360
Speaker 7: I was born in Sacramento, but I moved to England

1074
00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:48,480
Speaker 7: at two months old. So I grew up, you know,

1075
00:55:49,800 --> 00:55:52,839
Speaker 7: in England in Oxford. And so he says to me, oh, wow,

1076
00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:54,440
Speaker 7: I got a lot of friends at Oxford, as we know,

1077
00:55:54,480 --> 00:55:55,960
Speaker 7: a Glen Maxwell's from Oxford.

1078
00:55:56,040 --> 00:55:58,440
Speaker 12: And so he said, he didn't say that, but I'm

1079
00:55:58,480 --> 00:55:58,839
Speaker 12: just right.

1080
00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:03,160
Speaker 7: And he says, so would you like to meet a prince?

1081
00:56:04,040 --> 00:56:06,160
Speaker 7: And so I was like, yeah, of course, we doesn't

1082
00:56:06,160 --> 00:56:09,160
Speaker 7: want to meet a prince. And so at that moment,

1083
00:56:09,239 --> 00:56:12,480
Speaker 7: the gentleman from the pool walks up and he introduces

1084
00:56:12,560 --> 00:56:14,560
Speaker 7: himself and he says, the name is you.

1085
00:56:14,480 --> 00:56:17,520
Speaker 12: Know, Prince Andrew, and then it's nice to meet you.

1086
00:56:18,160 --> 00:56:21,200
Speaker 7: And so he says goodbye to the rest of the

1087
00:56:21,200 --> 00:56:24,200
Speaker 7: people there, the girls there, and Jeffrey, and he leaves

1088
00:56:24,280 --> 00:56:25,960
Speaker 7: and that was it. That's all I ever saw of him.

1089
00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:28,960
Speaker 7: I never really thought about him ever again for a

1090
00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:33,759
Speaker 7: few years. And then, you know, finished up dinner, and

1091
00:56:33,800 --> 00:56:35,719
Speaker 7: then we went to our quarters to get ready for

1092
00:56:35,719 --> 00:56:37,360
Speaker 7: bed because now it's dark and we couldn't get the

1093
00:56:37,400 --> 00:56:41,400
Speaker 7: boat back, so we had to stay the night and

1094
00:56:41,440 --> 00:56:43,399
Speaker 7: the boat was supposed to come in the morning. And

1095
00:56:43,480 --> 00:56:46,440
Speaker 7: so everything was fine that day. You know, this is

1096
00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:48,440
Speaker 7: kind of normal things in the malling business, to see

1097
00:56:48,480 --> 00:56:50,399
Speaker 7: older men and younger girls. I didn't really think much

1098
00:56:50,400 --> 00:56:52,920
Speaker 7: of it. And if that had been the end of it,

1099
00:56:52,960 --> 00:56:54,800
Speaker 7: that would probably been the end. I would never have

1100
00:56:54,880 --> 00:56:58,279
Speaker 7: heard Jeffrey Epstein again. But that's not what end. That's

1101
00:56:58,280 --> 00:57:02,520
Speaker 7: not where it ended. That night. So before going to bed,

1102
00:57:03,120 --> 00:57:07,320
Speaker 7: one of the other girls knocked on the door and said, hey, girls,

1103
00:57:07,400 --> 00:57:11,040
Speaker 7: you know, Jeffrey's ready for his massage. And so that's

1104
00:57:11,040 --> 00:57:13,319
Speaker 7: when we all kind of got an argument because I

1105
00:57:13,400 --> 00:57:14,680
Speaker 7: was just like, I don't want to. I don't want

1106
00:57:14,680 --> 00:57:16,360
Speaker 7: to do a massage. I don't know how to do

1107
00:57:16,400 --> 00:57:19,520
Speaker 7: a massage. I've never massaged a man before, and and

1108
00:57:20,240 --> 00:57:22,240
Speaker 7: what's you know, what's going on? And she's like, well,

1109
00:57:23,120 --> 00:57:26,200
Speaker 7: the girl brought me said, well, Jeffrey said for you

1110
00:57:26,240 --> 00:57:27,960
Speaker 7: to do it, you need to do it. And then

1111
00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:30,560
Speaker 7: the girl and I looked at the girl who knocked

1112
00:57:30,560 --> 00:57:32,080
Speaker 7: on the door, and I was like, I'm not doing it.

1113
00:57:32,080 --> 00:57:33,800
Speaker 7: She was like, well, we kind of have to do it.

1114
00:57:34,240 --> 00:57:38,200
Speaker 7: Go do a massage. And so I was just like, oh, okay,

1115
00:57:38,560 --> 00:57:41,280
Speaker 7: I feel so scared for you, Lisa, I know, and

1116
00:57:41,360 --> 00:57:43,720
Speaker 7: we are going to get right back in your story

1117
00:57:44,200 --> 00:57:45,400
Speaker 7: as soon as we come back.

1118
00:57:45,480 --> 00:57:49,439
Speaker 6: So listen, stick around, because we are going to hear

1119
00:57:49,560 --> 00:57:53,240
Speaker 6: from the riveting Epstein survivor and host of the podcast

1120
00:57:53,320 --> 00:57:57,080
Speaker 6: from now on, Lisa Phillips, and we're going to dig

1121
00:57:57,120 --> 00:58:01,040
Speaker 6: deeper into everything she has to say and what we

1122
00:58:01,080 --> 00:58:04,160
Speaker 6: need to know to be good Allies, keep it here.

1123
00:58:04,600 --> 00:58:12,000
Speaker 6: True Crime Tonight.

1124
00:58:16,800 --> 00:58:19,720
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

1125
00:58:19,760 --> 00:58:22,480
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Steph here with Courtney

1126
00:58:22,560 --> 00:58:25,000
Speaker 2: and Body, and we're joined by Lisa Phillips.

1127
00:58:25,480 --> 00:58:27,400
Speaker 3: She is the host of the podcast.

1128
00:58:27,080 --> 00:58:30,520
Speaker 2: From now on, It's a Big Night, because you know,

1129
00:58:30,640 --> 00:58:35,320
Speaker 2: she's also an Epstein survivor and was just telling us

1130
00:58:35,360 --> 00:58:39,440
Speaker 2: a harrowing tale at nineteen years old model being introduced

1131
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:41,960
Speaker 2: to Jeffrey Epstein and Prince Andrew for the very first

1132
00:58:41,960 --> 00:58:45,840
Speaker 2: time on his island, and we cut you off at

1133
00:58:46,360 --> 00:58:49,520
Speaker 2: just this pivotal moment. So there you are, you're being

1134
00:58:49,640 --> 00:58:53,000
Speaker 2: asked like it or not to get a massage for

1135
00:58:53,160 --> 00:58:54,840
Speaker 2: Epstein on the island.

1136
00:58:54,920 --> 00:58:58,520
Speaker 3: So yeah, we'll give it back to you now, Okay.

1137
00:58:58,680 --> 00:59:01,960
Speaker 7: So at that moment, I just took a deep breath

1138
00:59:02,240 --> 00:59:05,600
Speaker 7: and the other girl said to me, don't worry, everything

1139
00:59:05,600 --> 00:59:09,120
Speaker 7: will be fine. It's just a massage. And so from

1140
00:59:09,200 --> 00:59:14,120
Speaker 7: there we walked across the island over to Jeffrey's quarters

1141
00:59:14,760 --> 00:59:18,120
Speaker 7: and it was actually his bedroom with a massage table,

1142
00:59:18,840 --> 00:59:21,320
Speaker 7: and when we walked in, he was laying face down

1143
00:59:21,320 --> 00:59:27,360
Speaker 7: a massage naked, and I looked at the girl and like,

1144
00:59:27,440 --> 00:59:30,040
Speaker 7: what he's naked, like, you know, and so she's just like,

1145
00:59:30,320 --> 00:59:35,880
Speaker 7: just follow my lead, and so he just started joking

1146
00:59:36,160 --> 00:59:39,760
Speaker 7: and the conversation was completely different from the dinner table earlier.

1147
00:59:39,800 --> 00:59:42,320
Speaker 7: It was more just cheeky and like about who do

1148
00:59:42,320 --> 00:59:44,440
Speaker 7: you have a boyfriend? You know, what did you like

1149
00:59:44,480 --> 00:59:47,960
Speaker 7: to do this? And like asking all these really personal questions.

1150
00:59:48,000 --> 00:59:51,640
Speaker 7: So it was just kind of that was kind of weird.

1151
00:59:51,680 --> 00:59:53,640
Speaker 7: But I just continued to do a massage, and it

1152
00:59:53,680 --> 00:59:57,880
Speaker 7: actually was a real massage. This man loves massages, so

1153
00:59:58,000 --> 01:00:01,240
Speaker 7: he actually taught me real massage tech niqus and it

1154
01:00:01,320 --> 01:00:03,800
Speaker 7: went on for a probably good twenty minutes. He was

1155
01:00:03,840 --> 01:00:05,960
Speaker 7: expecting her and I to give him a massage, and

1156
01:00:06,000 --> 01:00:09,680
Speaker 7: so there was a massage on his back and then

1157
01:00:10,200 --> 01:00:12,400
Speaker 7: then all of a sudden, he just turns over and

1158
01:00:12,440 --> 01:00:17,600
Speaker 7: he starts to play with himself and that's when he

1159
01:00:17,640 --> 01:00:21,320
Speaker 7: looks at us and he starts making demands. And I

1160
01:00:21,360 --> 01:00:23,240
Speaker 7: just looked at her, and I just literally my whole

1161
01:00:23,280 --> 01:00:26,040
Speaker 7: body froze. I didn't even know what to do, and

1162
01:00:26,120 --> 01:00:27,600
Speaker 7: I just had all these thoughts in my head, like

1163
01:00:27,640 --> 01:00:29,400
Speaker 7: do I run out of here? Now I'm on an island.

1164
01:00:29,400 --> 01:00:31,400
Speaker 7: Where am I going to go? Like what do I

1165
01:00:31,400 --> 01:00:33,680
Speaker 7: says no? Or do I say stop? Like do I

1166
01:00:33,720 --> 01:00:35,320
Speaker 7: get mad? Like I didn't even know what to do,

1167
01:00:35,360 --> 01:00:37,080
Speaker 7: and I just looked at her and she just looked

1168
01:00:37,120 --> 01:00:39,960
Speaker 7: at me like just you have to do it, like

1169
01:00:40,040 --> 01:00:42,240
Speaker 7: let's just do it. And so I just was like

1170
01:00:42,680 --> 01:00:45,480
Speaker 7: I was my little my hands of Scott, like I

1171
01:00:45,480 --> 01:00:47,240
Speaker 7: can imagine it was a good massage up to that

1172
01:00:47,280 --> 01:00:50,320
Speaker 7: point because he didn't care. All he wanted to do

1173
01:00:50,440 --> 01:00:52,880
Speaker 7: was to see the fear in our eyes, to see

1174
01:00:52,960 --> 01:00:55,680
Speaker 7: us standing there. He wanted me to touch her and

1175
01:00:55,720 --> 01:00:58,959
Speaker 7: her to touch me. He played with himself, he took

1176
01:00:59,040 --> 01:01:04,439
Speaker 7: out tools and things to touch our bodies with, and

1177
01:01:04,840 --> 01:01:09,280
Speaker 7: it was just a few moments, a few minutes of

1178
01:01:10,560 --> 01:01:13,880
Speaker 7: just just freeze and fawn. And I don't have any

1179
01:01:13,880 --> 01:01:16,080
Speaker 7: other way to describe it. I mean, if I could

1180
01:01:16,120 --> 01:01:18,680
Speaker 7: go back, I wish I could have made different choices.

1181
01:01:18,680 --> 01:01:21,320
Speaker 7: But that was it. We did what we did in

1182
01:01:21,360 --> 01:01:24,720
Speaker 7: that room. Yeah, yeah, and we we ran out of

1183
01:01:24,760 --> 01:01:26,480
Speaker 7: there because once he was done, he was done, like

1184
01:01:26,560 --> 01:01:28,720
Speaker 7: go and so we just ran out of there and

1185
01:01:28,800 --> 01:01:29,919
Speaker 7: ran for our room.

1186
01:01:30,480 --> 01:01:32,840
Speaker 3: Because you're right, you're on an island. What do you where?

1187
01:01:32,880 --> 01:01:36,600
Speaker 2: You can't get off the island, and like there's security

1188
01:01:36,640 --> 01:01:37,800
Speaker 2: on that island.

1189
01:01:37,480 --> 01:01:40,520
Speaker 3: So powerful, there's a prince there. Yeah, what are you

1190
01:01:40,520 --> 01:01:42,760
Speaker 3: supposed to do? So you you did what you needed

1191
01:01:42,800 --> 01:01:46,040
Speaker 3: to do. Basically to survive right and keep yourself safe.

1192
01:01:46,320 --> 01:01:48,280
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, Lisa.

1193
01:01:48,200 --> 01:01:50,280
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, And I've heard of girls trying to swim

1194
01:01:50,360 --> 01:01:52,800
Speaker 7: away after the assault happens, and they try to swim

1195
01:01:52,880 --> 01:01:55,200
Speaker 7: off the island. I've heard so many horror stories. And

1196
01:01:56,080 --> 01:01:57,880
Speaker 7: they take your pat he takes your passport away, and

1197
01:01:57,920 --> 01:01:59,880
Speaker 7: you can't leave. There's no getting off that island. But

1198
01:02:00,560 --> 01:02:04,920
Speaker 7: I froze. I froze. I didn't experience anything horrific after that,

1199
01:02:05,160 --> 01:02:09,600
Speaker 7: or just just the assault and I and it was

1200
01:02:09,720 --> 01:02:12,080
Speaker 7: confusing to me because here I thought for hours, this

1201
01:02:12,120 --> 01:02:15,280
Speaker 7: guy was a nice, good guy, and then I didn't

1202
01:02:15,320 --> 01:02:18,280
Speaker 7: understand why he would do that to me, and and

1203
01:02:18,600 --> 01:02:21,480
Speaker 7: and nobody talks about it. So I just thought, oh,

1204
01:02:21,720 --> 01:02:24,840
Speaker 7: maybe because I'm different, he had a fetish. Maybe maybe

1205
01:02:24,840 --> 01:02:27,160
Speaker 7: I flirted with him, Like I just started blaming myself.

1206
01:02:27,280 --> 01:02:30,280
Speaker 2: No, of course, you just start shaming yourself because you

1207
01:02:30,360 --> 01:02:33,200
Speaker 2: must have wanted it, or you must have given a signal,

1208
01:02:33,320 --> 01:02:35,200
Speaker 2: which is you know, that's the playbook.

1209
01:02:35,840 --> 01:02:38,920
Speaker 7: Yeah, and it works. So I felt that way, and

1210
01:02:38,960 --> 01:02:41,320
Speaker 7: I just felt disgusted, and I just stayed up all

1211
01:02:41,480 --> 01:02:44,600
Speaker 7: night looking at the ceiling. I didn't sleep, and I

1212
01:02:44,720 --> 01:02:47,520
Speaker 7: just stayed there until dawn broke and then we literally

1213
01:02:47,840 --> 01:02:51,360
Speaker 7: ran as quickly as I could across the island into

1214
01:02:51,360 --> 01:02:54,200
Speaker 7: the boat and just like went straight to the other island.

1215
01:02:54,240 --> 01:02:58,000
Speaker 7: And that was my experience on that island.

1216
01:02:58,440 --> 01:03:01,920
Speaker 2: And he is just like a magne unanimous presence, I assume, right,

1217
01:03:02,040 --> 01:03:05,080
Speaker 2: Like we've heard so many reports that he is, and

1218
01:03:05,200 --> 01:03:08,400
Speaker 2: I imagine him now like even in our in our heads,

1219
01:03:09,240 --> 01:03:11,920
Speaker 2: that he's such a big presence and that he kind

1220
01:03:11,920 --> 01:03:15,600
Speaker 2: of would lock in on somebody kind of almost like pray. Right, So,

1221
01:03:16,440 --> 01:03:19,480
Speaker 2: because he's smart and he's interesting and he's worldly.

1222
01:03:20,120 --> 01:03:21,320
Speaker 3: You know, the goal is.

1223
01:03:21,240 --> 01:03:24,360
Speaker 2: To be impressive and to have you feel like this

1224
01:03:24,440 --> 01:03:26,880
Speaker 2: is somebody who knows everything.

1225
01:03:27,560 --> 01:03:30,640
Speaker 3: Is that accurate in your experience? Yeah?

1226
01:03:30,720 --> 01:03:34,000
Speaker 7: I think with me, he saw how well I responded

1227
01:03:34,040 --> 01:03:38,800
Speaker 7: to his attention and his questioning his questions. You know,

1228
01:03:38,920 --> 01:03:41,480
Speaker 7: I think you'd tell I was I was pretty intelligent

1229
01:03:41,560 --> 01:03:43,960
Speaker 7: and I was world traveled, you know, So I I

1230
01:03:44,000 --> 01:03:45,800
Speaker 7: think I was kind of impressive. He does probably doesn't

1231
01:03:45,840 --> 01:03:50,200
Speaker 7: need a lot of girl young girl because models are

1232
01:03:50,320 --> 01:03:52,400
Speaker 7: very you know, world traveled and these things like that.

1233
01:03:52,920 --> 01:03:55,520
Speaker 7: So I think he liked that. I believe the other

1234
01:03:55,560 --> 01:03:59,760
Speaker 7: girls were like the Florida girls, underage and came from

1235
01:03:59,760 --> 01:04:03,560
Speaker 7: a heart backgrounds and you know, drug addicted parents or

1236
01:04:03,600 --> 01:04:07,280
Speaker 7: in jail, and they have a different story. And I

1237
01:04:07,320 --> 01:04:10,000
Speaker 7: do know that Jeffrey has those types of girls that

1238
01:04:10,040 --> 01:04:12,360
Speaker 7: he had Gallaine brought in and the younger girls he

1239
01:04:12,440 --> 01:04:15,200
Speaker 7: was abusing and actually having sex with. And then there

1240
01:04:15,200 --> 01:04:17,120
Speaker 7: were the girls eighteen to twenty four that were a

1241
01:04:17,120 --> 01:04:20,200
Speaker 7: little more sophisticated and ambitious from New York. They were

1242
01:04:20,240 --> 01:04:23,360
Speaker 7: all career type girls. And he prayed on that. He

1243
01:04:23,440 --> 01:04:24,520
Speaker 7: prayed on that ambition.

1244
01:04:25,280 --> 01:04:27,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, on my labors and opportunities.

1245
01:04:27,680 --> 01:04:30,560
Speaker 7: Probably, Yeah, And you have to remember there always has

1246
01:04:30,560 --> 01:04:33,160
Speaker 7: to be really good, it's really evil. You can't just

1247
01:04:33,240 --> 01:04:35,680
Speaker 7: be all one hundred percent. He couldn't. I couldn't just

1248
01:04:35,800 --> 01:04:38,120
Speaker 7: arrive on the island and then do what he did.

1249
01:04:38,320 --> 01:04:40,360
Speaker 7: He had to work on me for hours, in which

1250
01:04:40,400 --> 01:04:40,960
Speaker 7: he did.

1251
01:04:41,360 --> 01:04:44,640
Speaker 3: Right at the table. And that was there too.

1252
01:04:44,840 --> 01:04:47,160
Speaker 2: Just for one thing, just in terms of grooming, just

1253
01:04:47,200 --> 01:04:49,680
Speaker 2: a quick pause as a learning tool. You know, you

1254
01:04:49,760 --> 01:04:52,400
Speaker 2: mentioned he was asking about your father and all of

1255
01:04:52,400 --> 01:04:55,680
Speaker 2: the girls about their fathers, And is the reason for that,

1256
01:04:55,760 --> 01:04:59,840
Speaker 2: Like they're almost as a predator, almost assessing who's going

1257
01:04:59,920 --> 01:05:02,080
Speaker 2: to call looking for you or who are you going

1258
01:05:02,160 --> 01:05:03,520
Speaker 2: to call when you leave here?

1259
01:05:03,720 --> 01:05:06,800
Speaker 3: Are you going to Are you going to call the cops?

1260
01:05:07,000 --> 01:05:10,800
Speaker 2: Do you have a protective parent that's like waiting for

1261
01:05:10,840 --> 01:05:13,600
Speaker 2: you to check in? Is that part of the process

1262
01:05:13,640 --> 01:05:15,920
Speaker 2: in your opinion in retrospect, I believe.

1263
01:05:16,360 --> 01:05:18,920
Speaker 12: I believe when he asked me about my father, if I.

1264
01:05:18,880 --> 01:05:20,960
Speaker 7: Had said I had a doting father that called me

1265
01:05:21,000 --> 01:05:24,080
Speaker 7: all the time, you know, and he's like, he's you know,

1266
01:05:24,120 --> 01:05:26,960
Speaker 7: this military guy worked at NATO, but he was on

1267
01:05:27,120 --> 01:05:30,080
Speaker 7: top of his daughter, you know, with everything that she

1268
01:05:30,240 --> 01:05:32,160
Speaker 7: was doing. I probably wouldn't have been the best pray

1269
01:05:32,280 --> 01:05:34,720
Speaker 7: for him. Yeah, you know, I wouldn't have been I

1270
01:05:34,720 --> 01:05:37,880
Speaker 7: wouldn't have been right. But I was already saying that

1271
01:05:38,640 --> 01:05:40,680
Speaker 7: I never hear from my dad. I don't have a

1272
01:05:40,680 --> 01:05:43,440
Speaker 7: close relationship with him. I don't miss my parents when

1273
01:05:43,440 --> 01:05:45,920
Speaker 7: I travel. I've been traveling for the last couple of years.

1274
01:05:45,920 --> 01:05:48,200
Speaker 7: I don't miss them because I never had an emotional

1275
01:05:48,240 --> 01:05:51,640
Speaker 7: bond in connection with them, and so I was just

1276
01:05:51,720 --> 01:05:55,880
Speaker 7: one of those girls that didn't have that. And he

1277
01:05:55,920 --> 01:05:58,800
Speaker 7: could pick up the fact that I was very educated

1278
01:05:58,880 --> 01:06:01,440
Speaker 7: and I traveled a lot, my parents did all those things.

1279
01:06:01,440 --> 01:06:03,760
Speaker 7: But you know, predators don't care about that they care.

1280
01:06:03,800 --> 01:06:06,640
Speaker 7: How much is your father invested in you? That's when

1281
01:06:06,640 --> 01:06:07,240
Speaker 7: I left you.

1282
01:06:07,560 --> 01:06:09,240
Speaker 3: He asked you if you had a boyfriend too, right,

1283
01:06:09,800 --> 01:06:10,400
Speaker 3: and yeah.

1284
01:06:10,200 --> 01:06:11,680
Speaker 7: Asked me if I had a boyfriend, and I didn't,

1285
01:06:12,040 --> 01:06:17,640
Speaker 7: you know, you know, so yeah, yeah, all the right questions. Yes, wow.

1286
01:06:17,920 --> 01:06:19,720
Speaker 7: And I was also the type that I wasn't really

1287
01:06:20,120 --> 01:06:23,400
Speaker 7: a big dater and things like that, and and and

1288
01:06:23,560 --> 01:06:25,360
Speaker 7: I also had a little boy body. You know. I

1289
01:06:25,400 --> 01:06:27,480
Speaker 7: was five feet nine and one hundred and fifteen pounds.

1290
01:06:27,640 --> 01:06:29,880
Speaker 7: I'm twenty pounds less than I am now. You know,

1291
01:06:29,960 --> 01:06:34,040
Speaker 7: I look like I look like a younger looking, much

1292
01:06:34,120 --> 01:06:37,040
Speaker 7: younger body, you know, right, Oh yeah, my body looked

1293
01:06:37,040 --> 01:06:39,520
Speaker 7: like a little little kid, you know. So I wasn't

1294
01:06:39,800 --> 01:06:42,320
Speaker 7: the models tend to be, especially then, you know, curves

1295
01:06:42,320 --> 01:06:45,280
Speaker 7: weren't in you know, we were skinny. I was super skinny.

1296
01:06:45,600 --> 01:06:47,880
Speaker 7: So and all the girls that were on the island

1297
01:06:47,920 --> 01:06:50,640
Speaker 7: were always skinny. They liked they liked you know, almost

1298
01:06:50,800 --> 01:06:53,680
Speaker 7: you free, your breast looking like you know, breath or anything.

1299
01:06:53,800 --> 01:06:57,640
Speaker 7: So right, no hips yeah, no hips, yeah, that kind

1300
01:06:57,640 --> 01:07:00,200
Speaker 7: of look. So I think even though I was brown,

1301
01:07:00,520 --> 01:07:05,080
Speaker 7: I was very something about myself. I think, oh, he

1302
01:07:05,160 --> 01:07:06,640
Speaker 7: just wanted to get off you know. Of whoever was

1303
01:07:06,640 --> 01:07:09,880
Speaker 7: on the island, I don't know. But but after I left.

1304
01:07:09,720 --> 01:07:12,000
Speaker 12: The island, I thought that was the end of it.

1305
01:07:12,000 --> 01:07:13,840
Speaker 7: I would never hear fromhim again, never wanted.

1306
01:07:13,640 --> 01:07:14,560
Speaker 12: To hear from him again.

1307
01:07:14,920 --> 01:07:17,840
Speaker 7: But Jeffrey had secretaries, you know, and his sweetheart deal

1308
01:07:17,880 --> 01:07:20,640
Speaker 7: in two thousand and six. His secretary's got immunity and

1309
01:07:20,680 --> 01:07:24,400
Speaker 7: they've never been prosecuted nothing. But these women, they will

1310
01:07:24,640 --> 01:07:29,040
Speaker 7: call you every few days, and they were relentless for

1311
01:07:29,320 --> 01:07:31,680
Speaker 7: months on end, telling me everything in the book to

1312
01:07:31,680 --> 01:07:33,280
Speaker 7: get me to go back and meet him in his

1313
01:07:33,360 --> 01:07:35,520
Speaker 7: upper east side of house. And I was scared to

1314
01:07:35,600 --> 01:07:37,480
Speaker 7: death of him, you know, because I didn't want to

1315
01:07:37,480 --> 01:07:38,120
Speaker 7: go back.

1316
01:07:38,360 --> 01:07:38,560
Speaker 6: You know.

1317
01:07:38,640 --> 01:07:42,160
Speaker 7: But this is where my story gets interesting because and

1318
01:07:42,160 --> 01:07:44,840
Speaker 7: the reason why I speak out now, if it ended there,

1319
01:07:45,080 --> 01:07:47,280
Speaker 7: would I would never speak out because I wouldn't.

1320
01:07:47,000 --> 01:07:49,320
Speaker 12: Know anything besides just that one experience.

1321
01:07:49,960 --> 01:07:52,400
Speaker 7: But well, I mean I did see that, I did

1322
01:07:52,400 --> 01:07:54,800
Speaker 7: see the Prince on the island. But because I saw

1323
01:07:54,880 --> 01:07:58,080
Speaker 7: him on the island, now that's a very important clue

1324
01:07:58,520 --> 01:08:01,760
Speaker 7: because that's why he had to have me back in

1325
01:08:01,800 --> 01:08:04,440
Speaker 7: the Orbits. Somehow, he had to have me back in

1326
01:08:04,440 --> 01:08:07,120
Speaker 7: his favor where I would never say anything, because that's

1327
01:08:07,160 --> 01:08:10,080
Speaker 7: a secret. That's a secret that I'm not that only

1328
01:08:10,120 --> 01:08:12,920
Speaker 7: the people on the inside know, and I wasn't allowed

1329
01:08:12,920 --> 01:08:16,080
Speaker 7: to know that. So he was trying to find any

1330
01:08:16,080 --> 01:08:18,800
Speaker 7: which way to make sure that I was in his

1331
01:08:18,920 --> 01:08:23,080
Speaker 7: orbit right. So what happened next was he called me

1332
01:08:23,120 --> 01:08:24,960
Speaker 7: one day and I remember I was just done with

1333
01:08:25,040 --> 01:08:28,519
Speaker 7: like a model casting and I was walking down I

1334
01:08:28,560 --> 01:08:30,600
Speaker 7: was like, in soho, I can't remember every time I

1335
01:08:30,600 --> 01:08:32,280
Speaker 7: walked past that area, and so I'm like, oh, this

1336
01:08:32,320 --> 01:08:35,639
Speaker 7: is the spot, you know, And he says to me, Lisa,

1337
01:08:36,080 --> 01:08:38,519
Speaker 7: I remember on the island that you said you wanted

1338
01:08:38,520 --> 01:08:40,519
Speaker 7: to be a Ford model. That was your ultimate goal.

1339
01:08:40,920 --> 01:08:42,479
Speaker 7: And he said, you know I can help you with that.

1340
01:08:43,080 --> 01:08:45,519
Speaker 7: My best friend is Katie Ford. And I was like what,

1341
01:08:45,880 --> 01:08:48,200
Speaker 7: And so he had my attention. Of course he knew that,

1342
01:08:49,000 --> 01:08:50,920
Speaker 7: and so I had told him on the island that

1343
01:08:51,040 --> 01:08:53,240
Speaker 7: my big dream. He asked me and I said, well,

1344
01:08:53,320 --> 01:08:56,719
Speaker 7: I'm working towards becoming the fourth model, and he said,

1345
01:08:56,800 --> 01:08:59,880
Speaker 7: you know, if you'd like go meet with Katie, she's

1346
01:09:00,280 --> 01:09:02,920
Speaker 7: for you. And so I was like, are you serious?

1347
01:09:03,320 --> 01:09:05,559
Speaker 7: And so in my mind I was just like that

1348
01:09:05,720 --> 01:09:07,840
Speaker 7: was just like I wasn't passing that up and like,

1349
01:09:07,960 --> 01:09:09,920
Speaker 7: you owe me, you know, from what you did to me,

1350
01:09:10,040 --> 01:09:12,240
Speaker 7: you owe me. And oh maybe or maybe you're not

1351
01:09:12,280 --> 01:09:14,800
Speaker 7: a bad guy. Maybe he feels sorry or feels bad

1352
01:09:14,840 --> 01:09:16,559
Speaker 7: for what he did to me. Maybe this is his

1353
01:09:16,560 --> 01:09:19,000
Speaker 7: way of making up for it. Exactly. So I had

1354
01:09:19,040 --> 01:09:23,080
Speaker 7: all these wonderful thoughts in my head. Now, so I

1355
01:09:23,080 --> 01:09:26,479
Speaker 7: immediately went, you know, got ready and stuff, and I

1356
01:09:26,520 --> 01:09:30,679
Speaker 7: went over to the iconic FOD model you know, building

1357
01:09:30,760 --> 01:09:34,680
Speaker 7: on Green Street and soho and signed in, said I

1358
01:09:34,720 --> 01:09:37,600
Speaker 7: was there to meet Katie Ford. And it worked. I

1359
01:09:37,640 --> 01:09:40,320
Speaker 7: went right in, went right into her office and I

1360
01:09:40,439 --> 01:09:43,840
Speaker 7: and I said, well, Jeffrey sent me. She goes, oh,

1361
01:09:43,920 --> 01:09:49,360
Speaker 7: I love Jeffrey. And I was like, okay, well wow,

1362
01:09:49,400 --> 01:09:52,800
Speaker 7: maybe he's a great guy, you know. And so that's

1363
01:09:52,800 --> 01:09:54,639
Speaker 7: when the tides turned a little bit in my mind.

1364
01:09:55,120 --> 01:09:57,320
Speaker 2: And just to set the stage if anyone doesn't remember

1365
01:09:57,479 --> 01:10:00,160
Speaker 2: these times, because as a New Yorker, you you know,

1366
01:10:00,280 --> 01:10:04,120
Speaker 2: the modeling agency, the Ford Modeling Agency.

1367
01:10:04,120 --> 01:10:04,880
Speaker 3: Was the thing.

1368
01:10:04,960 --> 01:10:07,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, my mother was stopped by Eileen Ford, you know,

1369
01:10:08,040 --> 01:10:10,800
Speaker 2: infamously in our family history to become a super model

1370
01:10:10,800 --> 01:10:14,640
Speaker 2: one day. So like that was the pinnacle of that

1371
01:10:14,800 --> 01:10:18,200
Speaker 2: was the agency. I know that building exactly. So I

1372
01:10:18,200 --> 01:10:21,040
Speaker 2: can only imagine being a young model in New York City.

1373
01:10:21,400 --> 01:10:23,960
Speaker 2: You get the phone call, you're walking in. This is

1374
01:10:24,040 --> 01:10:28,479
Speaker 2: all it's justifying all of the prestige that he's putting

1375
01:10:28,560 --> 01:10:32,400
Speaker 2: forth right, and this is a form of grooming also

1376
01:10:32,479 --> 01:10:35,200
Speaker 2: in the biggest possible way. But this isn't just some

1377
01:10:35,240 --> 01:10:39,120
Speaker 2: smagegi off the street. This is the Ford Modeling Agency.

1378
01:10:39,320 --> 01:10:42,360
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, you know, And I just I don't I

1379
01:10:42,360 --> 01:10:44,360
Speaker 7: don't know what I was thinking back then. I just

1380
01:10:44,760 --> 01:10:46,559
Speaker 7: thought I wanted that man to be a good man,

1381
01:10:46,640 --> 01:10:48,719
Speaker 7: because I didn't want him to be a bad man. Sure,

1382
01:10:48,840 --> 01:10:51,479
Speaker 7: so when he did that for me, I just thought, wow, like,

1383
01:10:51,680 --> 01:10:55,599
Speaker 7: maybe cares about me, you know, that need, that desire

1384
01:10:55,680 --> 01:10:59,599
Speaker 7: to have, you know, an older man, mentored type person

1385
01:10:59,640 --> 01:11:02,439
Speaker 7: in my life that I didn't have. So I just thought, Okay,

1386
01:11:02,520 --> 01:11:05,439
Speaker 7: maybe it's true what everyone says. Everyone back then said

1387
01:11:05,479 --> 01:11:09,840
Speaker 7: Jeffrey Epstein was incredible. The woman, the girl who brought

1388
01:11:09,840 --> 01:11:12,439
Speaker 7: me to the island said, he helped me get my

1389
01:11:12,560 --> 01:11:16,800
Speaker 7: VSAT to work in the United States, Right, So that's

1390
01:11:16,800 --> 01:11:19,479
Speaker 7: what he did. He helped her. Everyone you'd meet was say, oh,

1391
01:11:19,520 --> 01:11:20,960
Speaker 7: he helped me to do this. He helped me to

1392
01:11:21,080 --> 01:11:23,280
Speaker 7: be with my art. He helped me to get a

1393
01:11:23,360 --> 01:11:26,800
Speaker 7: job as a on a TV show and he gave

1394
01:11:26,800 --> 01:11:29,559
Speaker 7: me auditions, he introduced me this person and you know,

1395
01:11:29,640 --> 01:11:32,479
Speaker 7: got me into NYU under a scholarship. You know, all

1396
01:11:32,479 --> 01:11:35,040
Speaker 7: these things we're finding out now. He helped everybody because

1397
01:11:35,080 --> 01:11:39,040
Speaker 7: he could. Everybody had had, you know, hundreds of enablers everywhere.

1398
01:11:39,360 --> 01:11:40,599
Speaker 3: He had to do anything for him.

1399
01:11:40,960 --> 01:11:43,800
Speaker 7: It was a whole network. And so whatever I wanted,

1400
01:11:43,840 --> 01:11:46,320
Speaker 7: he was going to do. And so that's how he

1401
01:11:46,520 --> 01:11:49,040
Speaker 7: got me back into his orbit. And it was a

1402
01:11:49,479 --> 01:11:52,000
Speaker 7: he had to do it because of what I saw.

1403
01:11:52,360 --> 01:11:54,840
Speaker 12: And as we know today, Prince Andrew was a big

1404
01:11:54,880 --> 01:11:56,599
Speaker 12: deal and you know, and he's.

1405
01:11:56,479 --> 01:11:58,639
Speaker 7: Being found out more in the last couple of years.

1406
01:11:58,640 --> 01:12:01,559
Speaker 7: But it took a long time. No believe Virginia Juprey

1407
01:12:01,600 --> 01:12:03,439
Speaker 7: when she came out in twenty nineteen and said.

1408
01:12:03,960 --> 01:12:07,120
Speaker 2: Out at my house today we saw, for whatever that's worth,

1409
01:12:07,160 --> 01:12:12,519
Speaker 2: Prince Andrews moving into is new less than fancy fancy

1410
01:12:12,560 --> 01:12:14,360
Speaker 2: home today officially.

1411
01:12:14,600 --> 01:12:15,120
Speaker 3: So sad.

1412
01:12:15,400 --> 01:12:17,439
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean the UK is on top of doing

1413
01:12:17,479 --> 01:12:21,760
Speaker 7: things to hold accountability for mendel Finn, for Andrew. Yes,

1414
01:12:21,880 --> 01:12:24,599
Speaker 7: the UK is not the United States in.

1415
01:12:24,520 --> 01:12:25,439
Speaker 3: Ten other countries.

1416
01:12:25,479 --> 01:12:28,000
Speaker 2: I might add ten other countries have officially jumped in

1417
01:12:28,040 --> 01:12:33,880
Speaker 2: and opened investigations into either world trafficking or nefarious banking behavior,

1418
01:12:34,800 --> 01:12:37,640
Speaker 2: all because of the work that you're putting forward. I

1419
01:12:37,640 --> 01:12:39,200
Speaker 2: want to hear more about what happened at the Ford

1420
01:12:39,200 --> 01:12:41,320
Speaker 2: Modeling Agency. I know we only have a minute left.

1421
01:12:41,400 --> 01:12:42,639
Speaker 2: Court What did you want to say?

1422
01:12:42,920 --> 01:12:44,719
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, there's many things.

1423
01:12:44,720 --> 01:12:46,559
Speaker 6: As you said, we are actually about to go to

1424
01:12:46,600 --> 01:12:49,799
Speaker 6: another commercial, but we want to know everything that happened

1425
01:12:49,800 --> 01:12:52,600
Speaker 6: with Ford. We want to know everything about your podcast.

1426
01:12:52,680 --> 01:12:55,160
Speaker 6: We know you were supposed to go, but Lisa would

1427
01:12:55,160 --> 01:12:56,040
Speaker 6: beg you need to stay.

1428
01:12:56,280 --> 01:13:02,280
Speaker 4: I'm so surprised at how recognizable the grouping was in hindsight, right,

1429
01:13:02,600 --> 01:13:06,679
Speaker 4: That's one thing I'm just most surprised by. It's very interesting, Lisa.

1430
01:13:06,720 --> 01:13:09,320
Speaker 4: Thank you so much for that story. But yeah, keep it,

1431
01:13:09,439 --> 01:13:11,040
Speaker 4: stay tuned. Lisa's gonna come back.

1432
01:13:11,479 --> 01:13:19,400
Speaker 3: Keep it right here to Crime Tonight.

1433
01:13:24,120 --> 01:13:26,960
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We've been

1434
01:13:27,000 --> 01:13:28,559
Speaker 2: talking true crime all the time.

1435
01:13:28,600 --> 01:13:29,080
Speaker 3: I'm Steph.

1436
01:13:29,280 --> 01:13:32,160
Speaker 2: I'm here with Courtney and also with Body and Lisa

1437
01:13:32,200 --> 01:13:36,559
Speaker 2: Phillips is still with us. Lisa her frankly harrowing story

1438
01:13:37,120 --> 01:13:41,799
Speaker 2: of survival one of Epstein's survivors. And in the story

1439
01:13:41,840 --> 01:13:44,120
Speaker 2: you're telling now, you're just walking through the doors and

1440
01:13:44,160 --> 01:13:48,320
Speaker 2: meeting Katie Ford, the infamous head of the Ford modeling

1441
01:13:48,360 --> 01:13:51,880
Speaker 2: agency at that time set up by Epstein himself. How

1442
01:13:51,920 --> 01:13:54,120
Speaker 2: confusing and what a big step to grooming.

1443
01:13:54,680 --> 01:14:00,400
Speaker 7: Yeah, it was a hindsight a master later.

1444
01:14:00,680 --> 01:14:00,920
Speaker 3: You know.

1445
01:14:01,040 --> 01:14:01,960
Speaker 7: I just didn't think.

1446
01:14:01,800 --> 01:14:04,280
Speaker 12: So at the time because you think of the forward.

1447
01:14:04,120 --> 01:14:07,800
Speaker 7: Moweling business as this epitome of like success and where

1448
01:14:07,840 --> 01:14:11,719
Speaker 7: everyone wants to be. But it's but it actually finding

1449
01:14:11,760 --> 01:14:14,839
Speaker 7: out now that you know they were in cahoots with Epstein.

1450
01:14:15,040 --> 01:14:18,840
Speaker 7: Many agencies were in Paris and in New York, and

1451
01:14:18,920 --> 01:14:21,440
Speaker 7: not just getting the visas to bring over the Europeans

1452
01:14:21,479 --> 01:14:25,120
Speaker 7: to New York, they were also the heads of agencies

1453
01:14:25,120 --> 01:14:28,320
Speaker 7: were sending girls to Epstein. I found that out through

1454
01:14:28,320 --> 01:14:31,960
Speaker 7: the JP Morgan discovery. So yes, I'd say, I'm finding

1455
01:14:32,000 --> 01:14:34,639
Speaker 7: out new things all the time, and that that really

1456
01:14:34,640 --> 01:14:37,040
Speaker 7: tore things apart for me. That really almost broke my

1457
01:14:37,120 --> 01:14:39,719
Speaker 7: heart because I saw that I had worked so hard

1458
01:14:39,720 --> 01:14:42,400
Speaker 7: to become a Ford model. I knew Jeffrey had helped me,

1459
01:14:42,479 --> 01:14:45,640
Speaker 7: but I had no idea once I was in and

1460
01:14:45,680 --> 01:14:48,000
Speaker 7: the things that were happening had to do with the

1461
01:14:48,000 --> 01:14:51,439
Speaker 7: fact that, you know, the for the new Epstein. I

1462
01:14:51,640 --> 01:14:54,080
Speaker 7: I never knew that connection until recently.

1463
01:14:54,640 --> 01:14:57,479
Speaker 2: Did you imagine, again, this is very reputable, you know,

1464
01:14:57,560 --> 01:14:59,760
Speaker 2: this isn't just you know, not that this would make

1465
01:14:59,760 --> 01:15:02,400
Speaker 2: it any better in any way, but I think it's

1466
01:15:02,400 --> 01:15:05,240
Speaker 2: important for listeners to just know that sometimes you're walking

1467
01:15:05,240 --> 01:15:08,640
Speaker 2: into a casting, whether it's the fanciest or it's you know,

1468
01:15:08,800 --> 01:15:11,400
Speaker 2: at the corner at somebody's you know, weird photo shoot,

1469
01:15:11,479 --> 01:15:14,479
Speaker 2: and it's it's something that we have to be careful of,

1470
01:15:14,800 --> 01:15:16,840
Speaker 2: and young girls especially well.

1471
01:15:16,840 --> 01:15:19,519
Speaker 12: Also that it's a woman. You're not expecting it, you know.

1472
01:15:20,080 --> 01:15:23,200
Speaker 7: That's that's why Jeffrey always had women working for him,

1473
01:15:23,280 --> 01:15:27,280
Speaker 7: because you'll never suspect a woman. I never, ever, even

1474
01:15:27,320 --> 01:15:32,240
Speaker 7: though Katie and agents had put me in weird, compromising situations,

1475
01:15:33,160 --> 01:15:35,400
Speaker 7: even one that turned into abusive and that I have

1476
01:15:35,439 --> 01:15:38,640
Speaker 7: an NDA with, I never even thought back then they

1477
01:15:38,680 --> 01:15:40,880
Speaker 7: had anything to do with it. You know, I just thought, oh,

1478
01:15:40,960 --> 01:15:43,479
Speaker 7: dumb luck for me, wrong place, wrong time. I had

1479
01:15:43,479 --> 01:15:46,160
Speaker 7: no idea until everything came out in the last couple

1480
01:15:46,200 --> 01:15:49,040
Speaker 7: of years, and then now everything made sense to me.

1481
01:15:49,400 --> 01:15:52,479
Speaker 3: At least I had you at any even for a while, I.

1482
01:15:54,479 --> 01:15:56,200
Speaker 7: Was working to be a model since I was fifteen

1483
01:15:56,320 --> 01:15:58,040
Speaker 7: years old. I went to New York when I was

1484
01:15:58,080 --> 01:15:58,760
Speaker 7: sixteen for.

1485
01:15:58,720 --> 01:16:01,320
Speaker 12: A national magazine, you know, and I was.

1486
01:16:01,240 --> 01:16:04,880
Speaker 7: In Belgium working with Brussels and Amsterdam and Paris agencies

1487
01:16:04,880 --> 01:16:07,640
Speaker 7: from a team from when I was a teenager. So

1488
01:16:07,720 --> 01:16:11,160
Speaker 7: this was my This was my ultimate goal was to

1489
01:16:11,200 --> 01:16:13,360
Speaker 7: be with this agency. My dad took me up. Yeah,

1490
01:16:13,400 --> 01:16:15,160
Speaker 7: it was my dream. My dad took sixteen years old

1491
01:16:15,240 --> 01:16:18,160
Speaker 7: knocking on, you know, for modeling, going in there, and

1492
01:16:18,200 --> 01:16:20,000
Speaker 7: they turned me down at sixteen, and then I went

1493
01:16:20,040 --> 01:16:22,559
Speaker 7: back again, you know a few years later. So that's

1494
01:16:22,600 --> 01:16:24,759
Speaker 7: what I was working towards. So he made my ultimate

1495
01:16:24,840 --> 01:16:28,400
Speaker 7: dream happen for me. He absolutely did. But I didn't

1496
01:16:28,439 --> 01:16:30,880
Speaker 7: know after that. I thought he had nothing to do

1497
01:16:30,920 --> 01:16:33,960
Speaker 7: with the agencies, and now we know he had his

1498
01:16:34,040 --> 01:16:38,360
Speaker 7: hand in many model agencies. Many hundreds of girls were abused.

1499
01:16:39,200 --> 01:16:41,439
Speaker 7: And I even even even just as bad as an

1500
01:16:41,479 --> 01:16:44,680
Speaker 7: agent telling you, oh, you know, a guy came in

1501
01:16:44,720 --> 01:16:47,080
Speaker 7: and saw your picture, we'd love for you to go

1502
01:16:47,120 --> 01:16:49,240
Speaker 7: on a date with him, you know, And I was like, okay,

1503
01:16:49,400 --> 01:16:51,640
Speaker 7: thinking it's like some young guy. And then when he

1504
01:16:51,680 --> 01:16:53,800
Speaker 7: picks you up. It's a guy who's like in his sixties.

1505
01:16:54,200 --> 01:16:57,360
Speaker 7: Oh my god. And I was like, what a second, what,

1506
01:16:57,560 --> 01:17:01,000
Speaker 7: I'm like, twenty, why is this guy sixty? Weird stuff

1507
01:17:01,040 --> 01:17:02,000
Speaker 7: like that, you know.

1508
01:17:02,120 --> 01:17:04,160
Speaker 2: My god, and you get kind of desensitized to it,

1509
01:17:04,200 --> 01:17:06,960
Speaker 2: I would imagine after a while too, because again it's like,

1510
01:17:07,000 --> 01:17:07,639
Speaker 2: it's confusing.

1511
01:17:07,720 --> 01:17:09,880
Speaker 3: Is this what everybody is? The norm? I don't want

1512
01:17:09,880 --> 01:17:11,920
Speaker 3: to be. I don't want to make anybody uncomfortable.

1513
01:17:12,120 --> 01:17:12,800
Speaker 12: Yeah, it's scary.

1514
01:17:13,080 --> 01:17:14,600
Speaker 7: It was kind of a norm because I said to

1515
01:17:14,640 --> 01:17:17,320
Speaker 7: that guy he was a senator, right, Oh my god,

1516
01:17:17,360 --> 01:17:20,080
Speaker 7: I'm a senator And he took me to a party

1517
01:17:20,160 --> 01:17:22,679
Speaker 7: and I was sitting next to al Gore and Tippy Wow.

1518
01:17:22,680 --> 01:17:24,880
Speaker 7: And I even looked at him after the dinner and

1519
01:17:24,920 --> 01:17:27,559
Speaker 7: I was like, aren't you embarrassed to be here with me?

1520
01:17:28,360 --> 01:17:30,960
Speaker 7: And he was like, no, it's totally normal. And I

1521
01:17:31,000 --> 01:17:33,720
Speaker 7: was just like, what, like, your age and my age

1522
01:17:33,800 --> 01:17:36,160
Speaker 7: is normal to bring me in front of these people?

1523
01:17:36,520 --> 01:17:36,760
Speaker 3: Wow?

1524
01:17:36,800 --> 01:17:38,519
Speaker 7: You know the vice president at the time, and you

1525
01:17:38,600 --> 01:17:40,559
Speaker 7: bring me to a party like that on the Upper

1526
01:17:40,720 --> 01:17:44,000
Speaker 7: East Side right around the corner from Jeffrey's house, you know,

1527
01:17:44,160 --> 01:17:47,520
Speaker 7: So this all this stuff was normal, and do we feel.

1528
01:17:47,280 --> 01:17:49,600
Speaker 2: Like, do you feel like this was normal on the

1529
01:17:49,680 --> 01:17:51,960
Speaker 2: highest level. I mean, obviously there's so many well known

1530
01:17:52,080 --> 01:17:55,040
Speaker 2: names being thrown around, scary ones, right because it feels

1531
01:17:55,120 --> 01:17:57,920
Speaker 2: like some of the people that were controlling the system

1532
01:17:58,280 --> 01:18:01,120
Speaker 2: and that are controlling our system right now. We're all

1533
01:18:01,240 --> 01:18:05,480
Speaker 2: kind of in on the Jeffrey Epstein scam.

1534
01:18:05,520 --> 01:18:06,519
Speaker 3: I don't even know what we call it.

1535
01:18:06,600 --> 01:18:09,240
Speaker 7: Network well, yeah, I know, it's it's we're in on

1536
01:18:09,400 --> 01:18:13,080
Speaker 7: what's really going on. So the public has known about

1537
01:18:13,080 --> 01:18:15,799
Speaker 7: the underage girls in Florida and some of the young

1538
01:18:15,920 --> 01:18:18,120
Speaker 7: the young women you know, eighteen to twenty four in

1539
01:18:18,200 --> 01:18:22,160
Speaker 7: New York, but they have not really known the depravity

1540
01:18:22,400 --> 01:18:28,200
Speaker 7: and the disgustingness and the darkness and the demonic nature

1541
01:18:28,479 --> 01:18:30,880
Speaker 7: of what's really going on. And that's what you're seeing

1542
01:18:30,920 --> 01:18:33,559
Speaker 7: right now, and with Friday's drop, that's what you're seeing

1543
01:18:34,000 --> 01:18:35,960
Speaker 7: and and it's just all out there. It's just a

1544
01:18:36,000 --> 01:18:36,679
Speaker 7: normal thing.

1545
01:18:37,000 --> 01:18:37,160
Speaker 5: You know.

1546
01:18:37,240 --> 01:18:40,880
Speaker 7: Branson's like bring your hairm and Bill Gates is like, oops, ooopsy,

1547
01:18:41,040 --> 01:18:43,280
Speaker 7: got it. Std. You know, how am I going to

1548
01:18:43,479 --> 01:18:45,559
Speaker 7: like not tell my wife about this? Send me some

1549
01:18:45,600 --> 01:18:48,559
Speaker 7: antibotics so she doesn't find out. You know, these are

1550
01:18:48,760 --> 01:18:51,720
Speaker 7: you're you're seeing real things that are going on with

1551
01:18:51,880 --> 01:18:56,960
Speaker 7: all these men, and it's it's dark. It's always it's

1552
01:18:57,040 --> 01:19:00,519
Speaker 7: I've always known it's this dark. Reading it and seeing

1553
01:19:00,560 --> 01:19:03,240
Speaker 7: it all and having the public see it, I'm so

1554
01:19:03,360 --> 01:19:07,520
Speaker 7: happy we're all seeing it. But so we can understand

1555
01:19:08,000 --> 01:19:10,879
Speaker 7: what's what's going on, so hopefully we can make change.

1556
01:19:11,760 --> 01:19:15,760
Speaker 7: But just like Todd Blanch said, I mean, it's going

1557
01:19:15,840 --> 01:19:18,400
Speaker 7: to be hard to get accountability from these men. Well,

1558
01:19:18,439 --> 01:19:20,519
Speaker 7: Todd to be prosecuted.

1559
01:19:20,200 --> 01:19:22,400
Speaker 2: And correct me if I'm wrong, because Todd Blanch you

1560
01:19:22,439 --> 01:19:24,760
Speaker 2: bring up, and he's the one that I'll actually, you know,

1561
01:19:24,960 --> 01:19:28,639
Speaker 2: interviewed Glane Maxwell right before her transfer to a lower

1562
01:19:29,040 --> 01:19:33,200
Speaker 2: security prison, and he's recently said, you know, it's not

1563
01:19:33,240 --> 01:19:34,960
Speaker 2: a crime to party with Jeffrey.

1564
01:19:34,600 --> 01:19:39,000
Speaker 3: Epstein, and is it. I'm going to beg to differ there.

1565
01:19:39,040 --> 01:19:41,200
Speaker 2: I don't know that sounds like quite the party and

1566
01:19:41,880 --> 01:19:44,439
Speaker 2: you know, our own, you know, president of the United States.

1567
01:19:44,439 --> 01:19:46,240
Speaker 2: And again it brings me no pleasure to say this,

1568
01:19:46,720 --> 01:19:48,920
Speaker 2: you know, saying it's time for the country to move

1569
01:19:48,960 --> 01:19:50,360
Speaker 2: on from the Epstein files.

1570
01:19:50,600 --> 01:19:52,439
Speaker 7: What do you say to that, Well, remember what the

1571
01:19:52,479 --> 01:19:54,400
Speaker 7: Diddy stuff, Oh, it's not a crime. The party with

1572
01:19:54,479 --> 01:19:56,840
Speaker 7: Diddy yeah. I mean, everybody wants to party with Diddy,

1573
01:19:56,920 --> 01:19:59,280
Speaker 7: but there is a crime if you are the type

1574
01:19:59,320 --> 01:20:02,080
Speaker 7: of indo visual that will go to a freak off.

1575
01:20:02,560 --> 01:20:07,599
Speaker 7: And with Epstein, it's the same thing, ever Sepher. With Epstein, Yeah,

1576
01:20:07,720 --> 01:20:09,720
Speaker 7: if he's out at parties and stuff like that, he's

1577
01:20:09,760 --> 01:20:11,960
Speaker 7: not a playboy. He's in he's in the back, he's

1578
01:20:11,960 --> 01:20:13,720
Speaker 7: in the corners. You know what I mean. It's not

1579
01:20:13,840 --> 01:20:15,400
Speaker 7: it's not a big deal to party with him, But

1580
01:20:15,439 --> 01:20:17,840
Speaker 7: if you're going to the island, you know what's up.

1581
01:20:18,120 --> 01:20:21,240
Speaker 7: I don't care what you say. If I know Epstein,

1582
01:20:21,439 --> 01:20:26,439
Speaker 7: I know him and everybody who's around him knows of

1583
01:20:26,479 --> 01:20:30,360
Speaker 7: his sickness for young women and girls. Everybody knows that.

1584
01:20:30,400 --> 01:20:32,360
Speaker 7: He doesn't hide it. All he talks about is his

1585
01:20:32,400 --> 01:20:34,559
Speaker 7: love for Pee. He talks about it all the time.

1586
01:20:34,960 --> 01:20:38,400
Speaker 7: He says stuff like that, and all the girls around

1587
01:20:38,479 --> 01:20:43,280
Speaker 7: him all look or are underage. So and in the

1588
01:20:43,320 --> 01:20:46,800
Speaker 7: files everyone refers to it. You know, are you going

1589
01:20:46,880 --> 01:20:48,760
Speaker 7: to bring them? Are they going to be there? You

1590
01:20:48,800 --> 01:20:51,160
Speaker 7: know what kind of parties it's going to be. You know,

1591
01:20:51,200 --> 01:20:54,200
Speaker 7: everyone knows, and they may be asking so they can,

1592
01:20:54,360 --> 01:20:56,240
Speaker 7: Like Elon musk Case, I don't know if he went

1593
01:20:56,360 --> 01:20:58,439
Speaker 7: or not. But he's saying, yeah, I asked about it

1594
01:20:58,479 --> 01:21:00,759
Speaker 7: so that I wouldn't go if that was the case.

1595
01:21:01,479 --> 01:21:04,400
Speaker 7: And I have to agree. There are some men obviously

1596
01:21:04,720 --> 01:21:07,040
Speaker 7: who find out about what Jeffe's into and don't want

1597
01:21:07,040 --> 01:21:09,240
Speaker 7: anything to do with it, so they were silent.

1598
01:21:09,680 --> 01:21:13,439
Speaker 3: Of course, of course won't go. I read that about it.

1599
01:21:13,479 --> 01:21:14,040
Speaker 3: Didn't go to the.

1600
01:21:14,080 --> 01:21:17,360
Speaker 7: Breakoffs, you know, they don't go. So there are good

1601
01:21:17,400 --> 01:21:19,200
Speaker 7: men out there who don't want anything to do with that,

1602
01:21:19,320 --> 01:21:20,880
Speaker 7: don't want to get caught. I don't want to be

1603
01:21:20,920 --> 01:21:23,840
Speaker 7: around underage girls. It's not their thing. But the men

1604
01:21:23,960 --> 01:21:25,760
Speaker 7: who were in the files and the men who were

1605
01:21:25,800 --> 01:21:28,800
Speaker 7: on the island, trust me one percent, they knew what

1606
01:21:28,880 --> 01:21:29,360
Speaker 7: was going on.

1607
01:21:29,840 --> 01:21:31,600
Speaker 2: And do you think this has something to do with

1608
01:21:31,640 --> 01:21:33,360
Speaker 2: world leaders on a global scale.

1609
01:21:33,439 --> 01:21:34,760
Speaker 3: This is a global.

1610
01:21:34,320 --> 01:21:38,800
Speaker 2: Trafficking operation and the Hump's degree is what it's feeling like.

1611
01:21:39,600 --> 01:21:40,920
Speaker 2: Am I overstating that?

1612
01:21:41,360 --> 01:21:45,400
Speaker 7: Well, without getting into who Jeffrey Epstein really was. He

1613
01:21:46,680 --> 01:21:49,960
Speaker 7: knew everyone globally, Yes, prime ministers and all the most

1614
01:21:50,040 --> 01:21:55,240
Speaker 7: powerful people of these nations. Yeah, so they're in the files, right,

1615
01:21:55,280 --> 01:21:57,680
Speaker 7: And actually I know girls that have been assaulted by

1616
01:21:57,680 --> 01:22:01,800
Speaker 7: these men, brutally assaulted unexpectedly. You know a lot of

1617
01:22:01,840 --> 01:22:03,720
Speaker 7: people will say, oh, you're you knew what you were

1618
01:22:03,720 --> 01:22:05,800
Speaker 7: getting into. Oh you went to an island. Yeah, maybe

1619
01:22:05,840 --> 01:22:07,720
Speaker 7: you go to an island. You're not expected in the

1620
01:22:07,720 --> 01:22:10,800
Speaker 7: middle of the night to be you know, yeah, as aide,

1621
01:22:11,200 --> 01:22:13,720
Speaker 7: you know, you're not expecting that. You're not expecting when

1622
01:22:13,720 --> 01:22:15,880
Speaker 7: you go to release you you could say, if you

1623
01:22:15,920 --> 01:22:18,360
Speaker 7: want to do something. These are not girls saying I

1624
01:22:18,400 --> 01:22:20,559
Speaker 7: want to do this. They're being forced to do it.

1625
01:22:20,800 --> 01:22:24,640
Speaker 7: Their passports are being taken away, they're being assaulted. And

1626
01:22:24,680 --> 01:22:27,879
Speaker 7: that's why you have twelve hundred survivors, which the majority

1627
01:22:27,920 --> 01:22:31,280
Speaker 7: of them, I think it's you know, the majority, it's

1628
01:22:31,280 --> 01:22:34,280
Speaker 7: only three hundred maybe that have really come forward. So

1629
01:22:35,000 --> 01:22:36,639
Speaker 7: the majority of them are quiet about it.

1630
01:22:37,160 --> 01:22:40,680
Speaker 6: You know, well they're scared, of course, I mean with

1631
01:22:40,720 --> 01:22:43,679
Speaker 6: the with all the you know, these level of leaders

1632
01:22:43,680 --> 01:22:46,720
Speaker 6: that we're talking about, and just power and influence and

1633
01:22:47,200 --> 01:22:50,080
Speaker 6: all of the above. But speaking of coming forward, Lisa,

1634
01:22:50,439 --> 01:22:53,360
Speaker 6: what do we and everyone else need to know about

1635
01:22:53,400 --> 01:22:56,519
Speaker 6: your wonderful podcast from now on?

1636
01:22:57,240 --> 01:22:59,680
Speaker 7: Well, thank you so much for saying that that that

1637
01:23:00,120 --> 01:23:02,760
Speaker 7: as the turning point for me after I went through

1638
01:23:02,760 --> 01:23:06,000
Speaker 7: the JP Morgan settlement. JP Morgan admitted.

1639
01:23:05,680 --> 01:23:07,680
Speaker 12: To a sex trafficking ring of funding.

1640
01:23:07,400 --> 01:23:10,400
Speaker 7: It right, so that's already out there. When they admitted

1641
01:23:10,439 --> 01:23:13,479
Speaker 7: to it. They gave every survivor five years of therapy

1642
01:23:13,800 --> 01:23:17,400
Speaker 7: in which I took the best therapy emd R therapy

1643
01:23:17,439 --> 01:23:20,679
Speaker 7: that I could get. And during that therapy, I started

1644
01:23:20,680 --> 01:23:23,680
Speaker 7: talking about everything for the first time, really everything that

1645
01:23:23,720 --> 01:23:25,840
Speaker 7: was going on. And I was still working at a

1646
01:23:25,840 --> 01:23:27,760
Speaker 7: model scout at one of the top agencies in the

1647
01:23:27,800 --> 01:23:31,519
Speaker 7: world developing models, and I just said, I can't stand

1648
01:23:31,520 --> 01:23:32,040
Speaker 7: this business.

1649
01:23:32,160 --> 01:23:33,880
Speaker 12: This business, this business.

1650
01:23:33,600 --> 01:23:36,960
Speaker 7: Is so bad and things are still going on where

1651
01:23:36,960 --> 01:23:39,200
Speaker 7: these models are not protected. I'm going to go on

1652
01:23:39,240 --> 01:23:41,960
Speaker 7: the other side of it. And I wanted to shop.

1653
01:23:42,000 --> 01:23:44,519
Speaker 7: I was shopping a podcast and everyone kept saying, but

1654
01:23:44,560 --> 01:23:46,720
Speaker 7: aren't you a survivor yourself, Maybe you should talk about that,

1655
01:23:46,760 --> 01:23:48,920
Speaker 7: and I'm like, no, no, no, no, not me, Like I

1656
01:23:48,960 --> 01:23:51,559
Speaker 7: just am not that type person to put everything out there.

1657
01:23:52,240 --> 01:23:54,160
Speaker 7: And then I just woke up one day and I said,

1658
01:23:54,160 --> 01:23:55,160
Speaker 7: you know what, no one's going.

1659
01:23:55,120 --> 01:23:55,400
Speaker 8: To do it.

1660
01:23:55,439 --> 01:23:57,559
Speaker 7: I've got to do this. I've got to do this.

1661
01:23:57,880 --> 01:24:00,559
Speaker 7: Who's going to do it? And so I did it.

1662
01:24:00,600 --> 01:24:03,559
Speaker 7: I just made a decision. I booked the studio I

1663
01:24:03,680 --> 01:24:06,479
Speaker 7: just put up my own money, which was a quarter

1664
01:24:06,640 --> 01:24:10,519
Speaker 7: of the money that I received from the settlement, and

1665
01:24:11,680 --> 01:24:15,840
Speaker 7: just paid for a full blown year podcast where I

1666
01:24:15,880 --> 01:24:19,760
Speaker 7: just told my story through lots of breakdowns. I'll tell you,

1667
01:24:19,800 --> 01:24:21,559
Speaker 7: because it wasn't easy to tell your story for the

1668
01:24:21,560 --> 01:24:23,920
Speaker 7: first time. Started telling my story, and then I started

1669
01:24:23,920 --> 01:24:27,960
Speaker 7: interviewing survivors of all different types of abuse, not just

1670
01:24:28,000 --> 01:24:31,639
Speaker 7: serial predators, who domestic violence, woman who gets shot by

1671
01:24:31,640 --> 01:24:34,160
Speaker 7: her husband, familiar abuse.

1672
01:24:34,240 --> 01:24:35,880
Speaker 12: A girl who's you know, father is.

1673
01:24:35,960 --> 01:24:39,320
Speaker 7: Abusing her sexually for many years. A boy who's raped

1674
01:24:39,400 --> 01:24:42,320
Speaker 7: in a pool in Australia at eight years old, and

1675
01:24:42,760 --> 01:24:45,759
Speaker 7: you know, all sorts of abuse. And it was hard.

1676
01:24:46,400 --> 01:24:48,519
Speaker 7: It was so hard to listen to that. I would

1677
01:24:48,520 --> 01:24:51,760
Speaker 7: cry for them. I couldn't even lee it together. But

1678
01:24:51,840 --> 01:24:56,559
Speaker 7: that vulnerability, right was what people tapped into. And you know,

1679
01:24:56,600 --> 01:25:00,000
Speaker 7: I was nominated for ANBES and Webbies, I won three

1680
01:25:00,200 --> 01:25:04,160
Speaker 7: Signal Awards and I just actually that baby, thank you.

1681
01:25:04,640 --> 01:25:06,439
Speaker 7: I was just so proud of it, you know, and

1682
01:25:06,520 --> 01:25:08,400
Speaker 7: I just it was the biggest thing that I've ever

1683
01:25:08,400 --> 01:25:10,439
Speaker 7: done in my life and the bravest thing. And I

1684
01:25:10,479 --> 01:25:12,800
Speaker 7: thought that was over and then you know, I'll work

1685
01:25:12,800 --> 01:25:16,360
Speaker 7: on season two, and then Capitol Hill came in September,

1686
01:25:16,520 --> 01:25:19,080
Speaker 7: right when I was done with season one, and that

1687
01:25:19,200 --> 01:25:22,479
Speaker 7: put me on more of a global scale and people listening,

1688
01:25:22,520 --> 01:25:25,320
Speaker 7: and it wasn't about me. It was about you out there,

1689
01:25:25,400 --> 01:25:29,920
Speaker 7: everyone out there, survivors were here for you. And when

1690
01:25:29,960 --> 01:25:33,240
Speaker 7: you own your story, that's where the healing begins, when

1691
01:25:33,240 --> 01:25:35,960
Speaker 7: you actually say, you know what, this is not my shame.

1692
01:25:36,280 --> 01:25:39,720
Speaker 7: The shame is on you, the perpetrators, the abusers, the enablers,

1693
01:25:39,720 --> 01:25:43,800
Speaker 7: The shame is on all of you, mothers, all of you,

1694
01:25:44,200 --> 01:25:46,920
Speaker 7: and we're all getting angry. And that's why I said,

1695
01:25:46,960 --> 01:25:48,920
Speaker 7: you know what, all of you out there, if you're

1696
01:25:49,320 --> 01:25:52,320
Speaker 7: a survivor, come to me confidentially. Let's compel our own list.

1697
01:25:52,840 --> 01:25:55,960
Speaker 7: Let's let's get them and let's start working on it ourselves,

1698
01:25:56,240 --> 01:25:58,640
Speaker 7: you know. And that's kind of what we started to do,

1699
01:25:58,720 --> 01:26:01,839
Speaker 7: and started talking to, you know, the Women's Democratic Caucus

1700
01:26:01,840 --> 01:26:05,400
Speaker 7: and other very important people in Congress and representatives, and

1701
01:26:05,840 --> 01:26:08,640
Speaker 7: we just went to work. And you see, all the

1702
01:26:08,680 --> 01:26:13,000
Speaker 7: survivors are all all over the news. We're getting support. Finally, Yes,

1703
01:26:13,160 --> 01:26:14,880
Speaker 7: the American people are listening.

1704
01:26:15,320 --> 01:26:17,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, they're as board.

1705
01:26:18,479 --> 01:26:21,120
Speaker 7: Yeah. Well, well, you know, one and through your abuse

1706
01:26:21,240 --> 01:26:24,519
Speaker 7: one in four are abuse. This is a national this

1707
01:26:24,600 --> 01:26:27,479
Speaker 7: is a world problem. This is this is a human problem.

1708
01:26:27,680 --> 01:26:31,400
Speaker 7: It's not bipartisan. This is a problem for everybody. It

1709
01:26:31,439 --> 01:26:32,880
Speaker 7: doesn't matter what size you're on.

1710
01:26:33,439 --> 01:26:36,080
Speaker 3: Yep, that's right. Yeah, it will be the thing that

1711
01:26:36,200 --> 01:26:36,840
Speaker 3: unifies us.

1712
01:26:36,840 --> 01:26:39,000
Speaker 2: In my humble opinion, I will say that I think

1713
01:26:39,040 --> 01:26:41,360
Speaker 2: this will go down as the largest cover up that

1714
01:26:41,400 --> 01:26:43,920
Speaker 2: we will know of, and you will be a part

1715
01:26:43,920 --> 01:26:47,120
Speaker 2: of that change for victims everywhere. But I think that

1716
01:26:47,360 --> 01:26:50,679
Speaker 2: this is the issue that I think will amongst a few. Actually,

1717
01:26:50,840 --> 01:26:52,559
Speaker 2: I think we're seeing a lot of things actually real

1718
01:26:52,600 --> 01:26:55,840
Speaker 2: time where we're all kind of wait, that doesn't feel right.

1719
01:26:55,920 --> 01:26:59,000
Speaker 2: Let's all come together, because I think we can all

1720
01:26:59,000 --> 01:27:01,400
Speaker 2: agree this is not allowed to continue.

1721
01:27:01,680 --> 01:27:04,360
Speaker 7: This is not allowed to continue. And even our president,

1722
01:27:05,000 --> 01:27:07,800
Speaker 7: who did not want to, he signed a bill and

1723
01:27:07,840 --> 01:27:09,280
Speaker 7: even if he didn't think he was ever going to

1724
01:27:09,320 --> 01:27:13,240
Speaker 7: release anything, he signed that bill which made they had

1725
01:27:13,280 --> 01:27:16,880
Speaker 7: to release files. They released them very late, you know,

1726
01:27:16,960 --> 01:27:20,839
Speaker 7: and they also redacted a little messy so many powerful

1727
01:27:20,880 --> 01:27:23,559
Speaker 7: people and left the names of so many survivors that

1728
01:27:23,640 --> 01:27:26,320
Speaker 7: made us have to take it down, you know, and

1729
01:27:26,360 --> 01:27:29,160
Speaker 7: playing games with us. They're very calculated and they're re

1730
01:27:29,320 --> 01:27:33,720
Speaker 7: abusing and re traumatizing survivors and they're just playing games.

1731
01:27:33,360 --> 01:27:36,599
Speaker 7: It's just it's just all theatrics. So we we've been

1732
01:27:36,600 --> 01:27:40,200
Speaker 7: playing along, but we're at that point now where we're

1733
01:27:40,240 --> 01:27:42,280
Speaker 7: we are finding out things they said, Okay, I can't

1734
01:27:42,280 --> 01:27:44,559
Speaker 7: hold back any longer. Here you go, take a look

1735
01:27:44,600 --> 01:27:46,960
Speaker 7: at it. And this is where we are today. You know,

1736
01:27:47,120 --> 01:27:49,280
Speaker 7: we're seeing some very dark things.

1737
01:27:49,840 --> 01:27:52,280
Speaker 6: We are, but there are things that need to come

1738
01:27:52,320 --> 01:27:55,320
Speaker 6: into the light. And Lisa, we literally cannot thank you

1739
01:27:55,479 --> 01:27:58,719
Speaker 6: enough for coming on and trusting us with your story

1740
01:27:58,800 --> 01:28:03,720
Speaker 6: and sharing something so personal to share with everyone. And

1741
01:28:03,920 --> 01:28:08,400
Speaker 6: you are a one woman watershed moment, and anyone who

1742
01:28:08,400 --> 01:28:11,880
Speaker 6: wants to hear more of Lisa Phillips should on her

1743
01:28:11,920 --> 01:28:16,280
Speaker 6: podcast from now on. This is award winning, it is powerful.

1744
01:28:16,960 --> 01:28:19,800
Speaker 6: Listen to from now on. It's available wherever you get

1745
01:28:19,840 --> 01:28:23,759
Speaker 6: your podcasts. Thank you, Lisa, Thank you everybody.

1746
01:28:23,880 --> 01:28:24,160
Speaker 3: Kne