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Speaker 1: Hello the Internet, and welcome to season three eleven, episode

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Speaker 1: two of Daly's Guys Day production of iHeart Radio. Uh

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Speaker 1: timely three eleven reference, I don't know what was there?

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Speaker 2: So down an damn? I mean there's also Amber too,

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Speaker 2: season three.

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Speaker 1: Eleven, going down down, Oh there it is. It is

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Speaker 1: a podcast where we take a deep dap into america

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Speaker 1: Share consciousness, and of course America's share consciousness is shot

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Speaker 1: through with three eleven. Absolutely, it's Tuesday, October thirty first,

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty three. What's that?

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Speaker 2: And think of something?

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Speaker 1: What is it like National Corn Dog Day or some shit.

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Speaker 2: National Girl Scouts Girl Scout Founders Day. Wow the audacity? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: He also National Door National doorbell Day. Also also, I

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Speaker 2: mean that makes sense, National Knock Knock Joke Day, National

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Speaker 2: Magic Day, and Caramel Caramel Apple Day.

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Speaker 1: However you choose no thank you National Caramel Apple Day.

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Speaker 1: We do not. It's just it doesn't work for trick

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Speaker 1: or treating. It's a great treat that should not be

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Speaker 1: It should not have its national day on October thirty first,

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Speaker 1: And in fact, I think part of its problem is

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Speaker 1: that it keeps trying to be a Halloween trick or

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Speaker 1: treating treat when those days have.

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Speaker 2: Passed and you can't look that thing around, you.

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Speaker 1: Can't log that thing around without just, you know, getting

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Speaker 1: dry leaves stuck to it, you know.

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Speaker 2: Oh, you mean like it's not even in a like yeah,

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Speaker 2: just a loose stick. Yeah. Yeah, you don't want that.

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Speaker 1: The audacity of the founders of the Girl Scouts to

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Speaker 1: be like, we got that, and when people think October

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Speaker 1: thirty person, they will think of us, the founders of

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Speaker 1: the Girl Scouts. But anyways, Happy Halloween.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, every Oh it's it's you know why, Jack, It's

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Speaker 2: the birthday of the founder. Yeah, pick a different birthday.

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Speaker 1: Find a new angle. It's Halloween. It's Halloween. Baby, very

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Speaker 1: very excited. We'll talk more about it on trends a

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Speaker 1: little later, but excited, excited to be here.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: My name is Jack O'Brien AKA. Seems like I should

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Speaker 1: have like a Monster Mash themed AKA, but cannot get

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Speaker 1: up off of the p of my pants roller coaster

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Speaker 1: theme daycare. So here we go.

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Speaker 3: And I don't want my wife to see me because

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Speaker 3: I don't think that she don understand. Sometimes when I

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Speaker 3: ride on a coaster, I get often there's pee in

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Speaker 3: my pants.

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Speaker 1: That is courtesy of the Brew. Thank you the Brew

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Speaker 1: Zaich gang. Keep them coming, and I'm thrilled to be

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Speaker 1: joined as always by my co host mister Miles.

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Speaker 2: Grab Miles Great aka Bones in Doll, scales me, bones

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Speaker 2: and do help me, Bones and do might be? I

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Speaker 2: fear this is the end? He is, shout out to

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Speaker 2: eye alone by live. I remember I've alone. He was

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Speaker 2: a huge fan of that song. Shout out to first

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Speaker 2: one five to two on the discord before the high

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Speaker 2: alone can fix it. Yeah and yeah again Bones and Doll.

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Speaker 2: Because I didn't know the thing the movie Bones and

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Speaker 2: Doll again you already heard. I thought it was a movie.

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Speaker 1: Called Bones in Doll, Bones in Doll. It was much

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Speaker 1: scarier the Chucky movie. If Chucky had bones in him

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Speaker 1: would have been a lot scarier, harder to wrestle with that.

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Speaker 1: That was always my question, that'f this man is two

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Speaker 1: pounds and full of stuffing? How come they can't just

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Speaker 1: boot him?

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Speaker 2: Clear cross right, right right. Maybe he's as dense as

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Speaker 2: you know, like you know, like a one ton of

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Speaker 2: carbon or someth.

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Speaker 1: Maybe there is bones in that doll. I actually don't know. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I get I'm sure we find that out. Anyways, Miles,

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Speaker 1: we are thrilled to be joined in our third seat

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Speaker 1: by a senior reporter covering racial equity at the Center

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Speaker 1: for Public Integrity. She's been a full Bright Fellow, a

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Speaker 1: Fellow with the International Women's Media Foundation, and Innovations in

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Speaker 1: Food and Agriculture Fellow with the National Press Foundation. And

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Speaker 1: she's the host of the third season of The Heist,

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Speaker 1: which is incredible focuses on the long documented history of

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Speaker 1: government discrimination against black farmers. Please welcome to the show,

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Speaker 1: April Simpson.

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Speaker 2: April Welcome, April welcomes.

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Speaker 4: I'm really glad to be here.

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Speaker 1: Happy Halloween. Happy, Yeah do you celebrate?

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Speaker 4: I don't, but I have a daughter now and he

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Speaker 4: will be.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, okay, hold thanks six months. Okay, So I'm

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Speaker 2: a nine month old and we're doing the same thing.

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Speaker 2: And part the whole time, I was really conflicted about

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Speaker 2: costumes because I'm like, this child is not select this costume,

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Speaker 2: and we're now reducing it to a live action doll.

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Speaker 2: But but i mean, if seeing him in a woody

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Speaker 2: costume didn't bring a tear to my eye, you know, wow, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: that was the one that was very flammable, by the way,

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Speaker 2: that I was, Okay, dude, this woody costume it was.

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Speaker 2: That was the one that was like reeking of like petroleum.

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Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure it's like the most synthetic fabrics that

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Speaker 2: have ever been made. So yeah, so how is your

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Speaker 2: daughter liking the first Halloween?

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Speaker 4: Well, first, congrats to you too. I think he's gonna

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Speaker 4: love it. He's going to be a butterfly. Wow, it

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Speaker 4: could be fun. Yeah, but I think you know, babies

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Speaker 4: brings so much joy to other people, so that yeah,

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Speaker 4: kind of the fun of it too.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that is true, because there's no one sees a

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Speaker 2: cute baby dressed up and goes like that's so trite,

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Speaker 2: A nice try. Yeah, I would have contrived outshit this

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Speaker 2: is It's just it's always like, oh, like I remember

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Speaker 2: I went somewhere else in someone was like, there's a

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Speaker 2: baby here dressed like toy story. I guess, yeah, we'll

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Speaker 2: take that.

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Speaker 1: Oh that's so cute. Amazing those sound amazing. Congratulations to

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Speaker 1: you both, and congratulations to every living human with a

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Speaker 1: beating heart that runs into you on Halloween and gets

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Speaker 1: to see your children and they're amazing Halloween costumes. Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: all right, we're going to talk to you April about

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Speaker 1: the heightst season three. But before we get to it,

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Speaker 1: we do like to get to know our guests a

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Speaker 1: little bit better, and so we are going to ask you,

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Speaker 1: what is something from your search history that is revealing

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Speaker 1: about who you are, where you are, what's you're up to.

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Speaker 4: Sorry, I'm still on like the baby the baby stuff.

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Speaker 2: Of course you are, we all are.

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Speaker 4: My daughter doesn't sleep very long. It's only like every

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Speaker 4: two to three hours and then she needs to be fed.

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Speaker 4: And we've been doing this for six months. So I'm

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Speaker 4: I'm really run down at this point and like looking

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Speaker 4: for answers. So I searched something about like how to

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Speaker 4: get a baby to sleep longer than two to three

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Speaker 4: hour stretch?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Oh yeah, that's did you find? Have you found anything?

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Speaker 2: There's like I feel like it's one of those things

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Speaker 2: where you feel the answer is out there, but so

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Speaker 2: many things are so specific to a child that it's

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Speaker 2: like and people like I swear by this method and

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Speaker 2: it's like, yeah, for your kid, right, you just put.

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Speaker 1: Them in a rabbit cage and put formula in one

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Speaker 1: of those drip bottles.

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Speaker 2: Is that I don't think that's it's okay?

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Speaker 1: We give them a lot of room to run around

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Speaker 1: in there, right, even give them crawling tubes?

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Speaker 2: What anything? Anything good? Have you found anything helpful?

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Speaker 4: I mean your answer, no, But the only thing that

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Speaker 4: seems to help is like really loading her up with

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Speaker 4: food at night. I mean to the point that it

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Speaker 4: seems a little like this is a little bit much.

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Speaker 4: But the more we give her then we get like

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Speaker 4: maybe a four hour stretch, which I did last night.

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Speaker 1: But wow, it's like it's.

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Speaker 2: A little comfortable. Yeah, Oh, you mean just feeling. Do

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Speaker 2: you ever do like the dream feed you know? Yeah, that, yeah,

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Speaker 2: and just see how wrong we can pro like prolong

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Speaker 2: the bit of sleep. Yeah, I wish baby, Yeah, I

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Speaker 2: wish for sleep full nights for yeah, because I know

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Speaker 2: that it's it's so disorienting too, like especially early on,

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Speaker 2: and I remember like becoming existential, Like have I made

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Speaker 2: a terrible error in bringing life into this world and

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Speaker 2: being completely unable to like like contend with the schedule.

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Speaker 2: But it's I'm sure it will even have it always

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Speaker 2: it always Yeah, and.

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Speaker 4: Then another one, right, do you want another one?

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Speaker 2: No? No, we came into this pretty clear. I'm an

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Speaker 2: only child. My wife has like half siblings. But you know,

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Speaker 2: it's like her mother's only child, so kind of has

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Speaker 2: like that only child vibe too, And we're like, I think,

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Speaker 2: I think we're okay. As long as you have friends

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Speaker 2: in the neighborhood like we did, Like, then you won't

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Speaker 2: be you won't be like a lonely only child. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: That and just the cost of it all. It's just

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Speaker 2: like I think this feels very manageable, and I like this,

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Speaker 2: and I would like to not compound that any further.

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Speaker 1: And then there's the thing that happens to your brain

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Speaker 1: where you forget about a year and a half on.

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Speaker 1: You forget how hard this part was, and you either

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Speaker 1: have another child or you go back and listen to

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Speaker 1: this and remind yourself every every fifteen minutes. Right, But yeah,

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Speaker 1: we were surprised that we have a five and a

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Speaker 1: seven year old. And when the five year old came around,

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Speaker 1: it was less than two years later, and we were like,

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Speaker 1: oh man, this is so hard. I totally forgot how

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Speaker 1: hard this is.

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Speaker 2: But that's kind of like the psychology of her right, Like,

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Speaker 2: you know, like I felt like every time we were

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Speaker 2: talking to people have given birth and like what is it? Like,

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Speaker 2: you know, and it was like years on, Like, honestly,

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Speaker 2: I don't remember, yeah, truly, Like because for me, I'm like,

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Speaker 2: is it like, you know how difficult? Like, I mean,

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Speaker 2: we're here, you know, we're here, but the brain lets

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Speaker 2: you know, it's like, let's put that to the side

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Speaker 2: so we can continue, you know, inhabiting the earth. I guess. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: What is something that you think is overrated?

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Speaker 4: April candy corn?

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Speaker 1: Thank you? No, No, we're on a roller. We're on

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Speaker 1: a candy corn roller coaster, and I promise not to

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Speaker 1: pee my pin. But we we have had people saying overrated.

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Speaker 1: We've had people saying underrated. Yeah, but more the first time. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: most people do not like candy corn. I do. I

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Speaker 1: think it's little pebbles of icing, and I like icing.

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Speaker 1: I like a cupcake that has the most icing on.

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Speaker 2: It, so you feel like you're eating a three week

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Speaker 2: old cake. Yes, sitting out in the sun, You're like, ooh,

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Speaker 2: this is my favorite part, the trusted thrusting. Yeah, what's

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Speaker 2: your like? Break it down for me, April flavor wise,

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Speaker 2: what is it that you Why are we putting it

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Speaker 2: in this category?

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Speaker 4: I mean, it doesn't to me, it doesn't taste very good.

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Speaker 4: It just looks like something that doesn't expire, you know,

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Speaker 4: like I can just hang out for too long and

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Speaker 4: that's dangerous, right.

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Speaker 1: Right, You're said there's something unnatural about handy corn. It's

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Speaker 1: not that it shouldn't be.

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Speaker 2: I should not being it as a vegetable called corn april.

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Speaker 2: That's operative work.

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Speaker 4: That's a problem too. Yeah, it's deceiving.

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Speaker 2: Yes, Yeah, I tried. I tried again. I was. I

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Speaker 2: was just telling a story earlier a friend of mine

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Speaker 2: was dressed as candy Corn and got harassed by teenagers. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: like they'll be like, yo, candy Corse sucks. Yeah, And

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Speaker 2: it was just like for me, a little too aggressive.

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Speaker 2: I'm not a fan of candy corn, but like I

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Speaker 2: get it. It's just it's something that's out there. People

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Speaker 2: just feel I think it again, for me, it just

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Speaker 2: felt like the like the least exciting candy you could

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Speaker 2: give me on Halloween. And so when I got it,

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Speaker 2: I took that as a fac I took that as

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Speaker 2: an act of violence basically.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I took personally, Yeah, do you got what

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Speaker 1: top three candies? Do you do? You remember your top

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Speaker 1: three candies from trigger Tree and break it down?

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Speaker 2: Break it down.

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Speaker 4: I mean I always love Eminem's.

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Speaker 2: Okay, standards, straight yeah, straightforward eminems.

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Speaker 1: Just then where are we talking? Put?

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Speaker 4: No, I like the straightforward ones? And then don't they

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Speaker 4: have ones with like extra chocolate in them?

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Speaker 2: Now extra chocolate in them? Yeah?

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Speaker 4: I think?

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Speaker 2: So? WHOA really? I just I don't know why that

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Speaker 2: hit me like some kind of like revelation I've never

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Speaker 2: heard of. Oh what do we got here?

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Speaker 1: There's chocolate in the chocolate?

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Speaker 2: Man. Okay, now I'm on the hunt. You know what mean?

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Speaker 5: Oh?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, double chocolate Eminem's.

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Speaker 1: What's that? I can see where I could see an

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Speaker 1: eminem where instead of peanuts they have the regular Eminem's

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Speaker 1: in the middle, you know what I mean? Sorry, I

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Speaker 1: just got so excited.

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Speaker 5: About eminem is inside the peanut Eminem so classic Eminem's

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Speaker 5: like in the yes, yes, Why is this making me

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Speaker 5: so happy?

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Speaker 2: I think it's so it's so overboard that you're like, yes, yes,

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Speaker 2: go on.

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Speaker 1: Doubles Company, double candy shell double chocolate.

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Speaker 2: Comparently it's mixed. It's dark and milk chocolate from what

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Speaker 2: I so? Okay, okay, so Eminem that's one number two.

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Speaker 4: I like milky way.

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Speaker 2: It's pretty diment Yeah, no matter that I.

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Speaker 4: Like ps or the cups, the cps cups.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's funny how we all say we have to

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Speaker 2: say pieces. Yes, even though I do.

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Speaker 1: This too, it sounds like he's giving you a backhanded

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Speaker 1: like no, no, But we have some of us, but

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Speaker 1: we have all said pieces and they all say pecs because

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Speaker 1: it just feels like, why mess it up when we

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Speaker 1: can have a good thing with a rhyming name like that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we all found out about it when we were like four,

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Speaker 1: so I think it is the four year old way

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Speaker 1: to say that candy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm pretty.

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Speaker 1: I think we've covered our rankings before. But I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna say peanut butter cups, I'm gonna say milky way,

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Speaker 1: and I'm gonna say blow pops. I'm gonna throw and

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Speaker 1: blow pops the world up.

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Speaker 2: Blow pops are definitely the superior non chocolate candy. Wow,

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Speaker 2: any anything. My thing is chocolate above everything else. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and then it's then it's a scrap over the things

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Speaker 2: with chocolate in it, and I don't want to waste

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Speaker 2: everybody's time with that. But then when we talk about

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Speaker 2: fruit flavored candies, like I'm not even like mombos or

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Speaker 2: you know sour like the blow Pop and.

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Speaker 1: I think it's the same with which you said, mom Ah,

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Speaker 1: I just don't like them, don't like them.

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Speaker 2: But but the Blowpop commercials from the early nineties, I

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Speaker 2: think that's why, because everybody was like, yo, look at

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Speaker 2: like it was that fell zany.

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Speaker 1: So you just crunch into that ship soft center.

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Speaker 2: And then you have April where you at with Tutsi

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Speaker 2: Pops and Tutsi Rolls.

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Speaker 4: I like Potze Rolls. I'm not such a fan of

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Speaker 4: the pops, but I like the pot cereals.

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Speaker 2: Do they Do you consider that a chocolate or you

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Speaker 2: consider that like a usurper that is passable?

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Speaker 1: You know?

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Speaker 4: I think I considered it a chocolate.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 1: I think that's the difference between people who like Tootsy

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Speaker 1: Rolls and don't is if you view it as chocolate

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Speaker 1: or if you view it as gross chocolate flavored taffy,

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Speaker 1: as I do. And I apologize, and I don't mean

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Speaker 1: to be mean, but that's just my truth, and I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna speak.

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Speaker 2: Think you think you've been working hard on that April.

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Speaker 1: What's something you think is underrated?

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Speaker 4: Rain? Rain is underrated?

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Speaker 1: Now?

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Speaker 2: What is it about rain?

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Speaker 4: It's you know, when there's like a rain shower, it

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Speaker 4: feels like everything is fresh and new. Afterwards when the

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Speaker 4: sun comes out, and if you're inside and you hear

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Speaker 4: the rainfall, it's very relaxing and peaceful. Yeah, it's like

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Speaker 4: as healing.

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Speaker 2: Oh okay, good. So many people are like from La

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Speaker 2: that come on the show that everyone's like it's underrated,

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Speaker 2: is like because we need it really, But that part

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Speaker 2: also is the best part is like what just the

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Speaker 2: pitter pattern of rain does to you, Like like into

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Speaker 2: your mind, You're like, oh no, I'm I need to

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Speaker 2: just lay around or just stay inside or something like

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Speaker 2: that and relax.

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Speaker 1: It's like the earth is shushing you. It's like such

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Speaker 1: a great sound.

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Speaker 2: It's just.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I love because I also was like a you know, see,

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Speaker 1: I played sports growing up, but I wish I I

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Speaker 1: wished I didn't. I wish I was just able to

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Speaker 1: like stay inside all the time and like watch movies NonStop.

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Speaker 1: And so there's also like something deep within my brain

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Speaker 1: that when I hear rain, I'm like, I don't have

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Speaker 1: to go outside, don't pretend to be and Jock.

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Speaker 2: I can just yeah, watch that's wild man. Are you

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Speaker 2: so now? Are you one of those parents. You're like, hey,

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Speaker 2: don't play sports because you think I want you to. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: That's what my dad always said to me, because it

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Speaker 2: was like athleticism was kind of currency in my dad's family,

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Speaker 2: and my uncle was like a really good football player.

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Speaker 2: My dad's an artist, so he was the last thing

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Speaker 2: he wanted to do is like put pads on to

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Speaker 2: smash people up. And I remember he would always just

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Speaker 2: like you would always when I was playing hockey or other.

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Speaker 2: She's like, you're not playing this because you think I

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Speaker 2: want you to write because I don't. Yeah. He's like,

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Speaker 2: because I don't like waking up at five am to

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Speaker 2: do weird parts of the city.

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Speaker 1: And I'm like, hockey is intense, man, Wow. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: love rain. I love and we don't get it. We

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Speaker 1: don't get enough of it out here in a Yeah.

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Speaker 2: We heard about that.

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Speaker 1: Amazing. All right, Well, let's take a quick break and

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Speaker 1: we'll come back and start getting into the Heist season three.

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Speaker 1: We'll be right back, and we're back. We're back, and

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Speaker 1: I guess to kick us off, i'd just be curious

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Speaker 1: to hear a little bit more about your background, April.

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Speaker 1: What kind of stories did you cover prior to this,

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Speaker 1: how do you get to this story? Because I personally

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Speaker 1: hear agriculture and my brain doesn't turn off, but it

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Speaker 1: assumes that's somebody else's story to pay attention to. But

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Speaker 1: then this one was so good, and it seems like,

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Speaker 1: based on some of your credentials, that agriculture is kind

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Speaker 1: of a sweet spot for you.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I'd say it almost fell into it because at

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Speaker 4: my job prior to coming to Center for Public Integrity,

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Speaker 4: I covered rural issues and really had the opportunity to

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Speaker 4: shape that beat as I saw fit. And you know,

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Speaker 4: at that time Trump was president, there were like subsidies

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Speaker 4: basically that were given to farmers when there was a

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Speaker 4: trade war with China, right to help keep them on

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Speaker 4: their feed. And there was you know, investigative reporting that

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Speaker 4: showed most of that money, nearly all of that money

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Speaker 4: went to white farmers. And some of that just has

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Speaker 4: to do with the way, like the structure of the system.

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Speaker 4: So I got just into role issues reporting into agriculture

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Speaker 4: as like a beat within my beat while I was

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Speaker 4: at my previous job, and during that time also learned

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Speaker 4: more about the history of discrimination at USDA. I learned

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Speaker 4: against black farmers and other farmers of color as well,

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Speaker 4: and you know, learn more about Pickford versus Clickman was,

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Speaker 4: which was this big class action lawsuit Black farmers were

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Speaker 4: sex s full and the I guess the first installment

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Speaker 4: in the late nineties, nineteen ninety nine, and doing that work,

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Speaker 4: you know, led me to CPI and trying to like

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Speaker 4: not sound super wonky about it but.

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Speaker 2: Not yet.

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Speaker 4: Go wonk And hearing a farmer who actually recently passed away.

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Speaker 4: His names Eddie Slaughter.

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Speaker 1: He's passed away.

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, yeah, he passed away, like end of September.

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Speaker 4: It just happened.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm sad to hear that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that I mean, like this story is so it

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Speaker 2: It like it touches intersex with so many issues that

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Speaker 2: the United States has been the cause of and never

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Speaker 2: the solution to. And it's the whole journey that you

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Speaker 2: sort of take listeners on is really fantastic because, like

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Speaker 2: Jack said, like when I hear like when I hear

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Speaker 2: people talking about big agricaul, I hear about big agriculture

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Speaker 2: and factory farming and farm subsidies. But I'm like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I don't know, it's just like that one in industry,

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Speaker 2: like the government is the one being like the money

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Speaker 2: hose will never turn off for some of you, right,

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Speaker 2: and then really beginning to zoom out to really understand

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Speaker 2: the entirety of it, because in my mind, I'm like,

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Speaker 2: it's probably like you just assume it's like it's probably

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Speaker 2: like five companies doing everything when you lose sight of

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Speaker 2: sort of what these origin stories are and you go

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Speaker 2: back to, you know, the early twentieth century in Oklahoma

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Speaker 2: and how a lot of these farming, these black farming

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Speaker 2: communities were thriving, you know, and we've talked about like

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Speaker 2: Black Wall Street on this show and just sort of

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Speaker 2: the whole history there. But can you kind of just

408
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Speaker 2: like sort of paint this picture because I think more

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Speaker 2: than even talking about, like we're going to talk about

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Speaker 2: what's happening now, but I think it's really important for

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Speaker 2: people to understand how prosperous black farming was in the

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Speaker 2: United States, to really get an understanding of like the

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Speaker 2: tragedy that has been occurring ever since then.

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Speaker 1: Just to refresh people, Black Wall Street was Tulsa, Oklahoma,

415
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Speaker 1: like this boom time, like all black or you know,

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Speaker 1: prominently black community where business was just thriving, families were

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Speaker 1: getting rich and because they're being left to like operate

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Speaker 1: a community on their own without a lot of white

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Speaker 1: supremacy coming in and you know, using the tools of

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Speaker 1: systemic oppression to crush them and then people Obviously this

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Speaker 1: is a simplified way of saying it, but like the

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Speaker 1: what white supremacy came in and burnt the town to

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Speaker 1: the ground and like raised, like literally raised the community

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Speaker 1: in Oklahoma. But yeah, totally a story that I didn't

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Speaker 1: know was that not far away also in Oklahoma, around

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Speaker 1: the same time, there was a similarly thriving rural community

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Speaker 1: that you talked about April.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, we talk about Bowley, Oklahoma, which is where the

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Speaker 4: main character of the podcast is from, Nee Bradford, and

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00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:03,000
Speaker 4: it was in some ways like a country version of

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Speaker 4: that Tulsa. It was a thriving black community that was

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Speaker 4: full of folks who came from the Deep South escaping

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Speaker 4: Jim Crow around the turn of the century and trying

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Speaker 4: to you know, get get a piece of land and

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Speaker 4: be free. And a lot of those folks ended up

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Speaker 4: settling in Bowley because there was a railroad that was

437
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:28,199
Speaker 4: being developed and going from Oklahoma to Arkansas. So it

438
00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:30,960
Speaker 4: was just you know, a good place to be and

439
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:33,840
Speaker 4: that brought a lot of folks through there, so they settled,

440
00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:36,639
Speaker 4: you know, in and around Bowley. They were able to

441
00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:39,840
Speaker 4: buy land be a part of this community that was

442
00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:44,680
Speaker 4: four black folks by black folks, so you know, answering

443
00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:49,000
Speaker 4: to local government leadership and everything that was done was

444
00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:51,320
Speaker 4: in the interest of the people who were there, who

445
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:54,560
Speaker 4: were majority black, and a lot of those folks. Cotton

446
00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:57,800
Speaker 4: was huge, so a lot of them were cotton farmers.

447
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:01,680
Speaker 4: Some of them were also in cattle farm and Bully

448
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:05,960
Speaker 4: ended up and they really you know, paid for Bully, right.

449
00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:09,800
Speaker 4: Their money was what was making the town prosperous. And

450
00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:13,879
Speaker 4: Bowley ended up being hugely successful. It had colleges, it

451
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:18,119
Speaker 4: had grocery stores, it had banks, It had what is

452
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:23,320
Speaker 4: believed to be the first black nationally chartered bank in

453
00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:27,280
Speaker 4: the country, which is huge. And yeah, I mean that

454
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:30,959
Speaker 4: that ended up changing for a number of reasons. But Bullie,

455
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:35,399
Speaker 4: it was one of fifty black towns at the time.

456
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:41,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's just so so devastating to the central

457
00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:45,760
Speaker 1: narrative of white supremacy, like the existence of this thriving

458
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:51,800
Speaker 1: town that like, if white supremacists allow this town to exist,

459
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:56,600
Speaker 1: is able to thrive and have this amazing community and

460
00:24:56,920 --> 00:24:59,600
Speaker 1: also like kind of devastating to some of the central

461
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:07,200
Speaker 1: tenants of capitalists, like individualism and capitalism where there's this

462
00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:10,840
Speaker 1: you know, we we've talked about community action and how

463
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:16,720
Speaker 1: you know, Black communities and you know, indigenous communities are

464
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,000
Speaker 1: some of the best models that we have of like

465
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:22,399
Speaker 1: how you know communities that take care of themselves and

466
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:29,119
Speaker 1: start their own you know, circular communities. And yeah, so

467
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:34,720
Speaker 1: it runs against the central coordinarrative of the American mainstream

468
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:37,600
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways that are probably scary to

469
00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:39,399
Speaker 1: powerful people.

470
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:44,439
Speaker 2: Right. It's it's also like like hearing about that era too,

471
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 2: where you know, these these communities were thriving and here

472
00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:53,800
Speaker 2: like that the change came once you know, like once

473
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:57,159
Speaker 2: statehood occurred and now Oklahoma was going to be like

474
00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:01,520
Speaker 2: basically get like the other states were like enacting these

475
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:04,600
Speaker 2: Jim Crow laws. And now you had these communities that

476
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:06,919
Speaker 2: were for the most part able to do whatever they

477
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:09,880
Speaker 2: had to mostly free from any kind of like racial

478
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:14,080
Speaker 2: interference that suddenly now they're seeing segregation and they're seeing

479
00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:17,679
Speaker 2: all these laws that are like are completely changing the

480
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:21,159
Speaker 2: way they live. What was like from that moment on

481
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:23,680
Speaker 2: because I think this is this is what becomes really

482
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 2: interesting too, is this is sort of like the that

483
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:28,800
Speaker 2: was sort of like the height of things, and now

484
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 2: we begin to see the deterioration of these communities and

485
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:36,400
Speaker 2: the dispossession of land. What was like after these Jim

486
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:39,040
Speaker 2: Crow laws were enacted, what sort of like the kind

487
00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:41,480
Speaker 2: of next sort of beats that happened that are kind

488
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:43,919
Speaker 2: of that begins sort of this momentum even further.

489
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, so Oklahoma became a state nineteen oh seven, it

490
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 4: starts passing these gim Crow laws, and but Bully did

491
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 4: thrive for a little bit longer. But then there are

492
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:56,760
Speaker 4: a lot of economic things that happened, right There was

493
00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:59,680
Speaker 4: the Great Depression. There was a bull Levil that you

494
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,399
Speaker 4: the cotton. There was the Agricultural Adjustment Act of in

495
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:07,359
Speaker 4: the thirties that limited the amount of cotton a farmer

496
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:11,160
Speaker 4: could produce those that were sharecropper, and folks farmers got

497
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 4: money to help them through that, but folks that were

498
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:17,120
Speaker 4: sharecroppers may not have seen any of that money. And

499
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:19,639
Speaker 4: black folks were kind of limited in what they could grow.

500
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:24,240
Speaker 4: So all those things led to the decline of Bully.

501
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 4: A lot of the folks there, and like the local

502
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:29,480
Speaker 4: historians say that even though there was this Jim Crow

503
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:32,439
Speaker 4: violence happening outside of Bowley, not even that far outside

504
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:37,560
Speaker 4: of Bully, because there were sundowntowns very close, it Bully felt,

505
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:41,119
Speaker 4: you know, kind of protected, but it's still that fear,

506
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:45,400
Speaker 4: that violence that's happening just outside. All these things came

507
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:49,119
Speaker 4: together and encouraged folks to move on to other places.

508
00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:52,480
Speaker 2: Wow. And then like I guess you know, part of

509
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:54,719
Speaker 2: like the whole you know, the focus of the season

510
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 2: is talking about just the decline and discrimination in black

511
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:02,719
Speaker 2: farm and black farmers have had to face. Can you

512
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 2: like there's some pretty staggering statistics. I think people should

513
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 2: kind of like hear first, like as we dive into

514
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:12,119
Speaker 2: this is what, like what was the state of black

515
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 2: farmers like in its prime as opposed to right now,

516
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:18,239
Speaker 2: just so we can give ourselves an idea of like

517
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:21,320
Speaker 2: how aggressive this process has been.

518
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:26,679
Speaker 4: So around the turn of the century when we know,

519
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:30,639
Speaker 4: you know, obviously coming out of slavery, there were a

520
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:34,160
Speaker 4: great number of black farmers, and we know, for example,

521
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 4: there's a study that found black farmers lost three hundred

522
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:39,080
Speaker 4: and twenty six billion in land and wealth from nineteen

523
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:43,960
Speaker 4: twenty to nineteen ninety seven, which is a huge, huge number.

524
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 4: And we know that the number of black farmers has

525
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 4: dropped sixty seven percent since nineteen hundred, so that's that's

526
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,760
Speaker 4: a pretty big one now as well, Black farmers now

527
00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 4: are only about one point four percent of all farmers, suggests.

528
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:05,240
Speaker 1: A tiny number, and that that was not the case

529
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:09,720
Speaker 1: and like leading up to the nineteen twenties was not

530
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 1: like one point four percent.

531
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 4: No, it was black folks had you know, we're much

532
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:20,960
Speaker 4: greater in number, and we're also you know, significant landowners

533
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 4: as well.

534
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, And the way the government accomplished this is kind

535
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 1: of a thing. We've you know, the systemic economic forces,

536
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 1: economic racism, and it blends in more easily when they

537
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 1: can just say, oh, well, you know, there was a

538
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 1: bad run of boll weevils or something like that, and

539
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:50,520
Speaker 1: not focusing on well, in white communities, when there's a

540
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:53,920
Speaker 1: you know, bad string of crops because of bull weevils,

541
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 1: the government comes in and turns on the money hose. Right,

542
00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 1: But in this case there's just a differ standard of

543
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 1: one to intervene and how easy it is to get

544
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:08,600
Speaker 1: government assistants and then like what happens once you get

545
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:09,840
Speaker 1: that government assistance.

546
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, obviously there's racial violence that had a

547
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 4: pardon this, but also subsidies, for example, are more helpful

548
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:23,360
Speaker 4: to farmers that are larger landowners or farmers who are

549
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 4: growing certain crops, and black farmers tend to be smaller guys,

550
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:30,320
Speaker 4: so they're not going to get as much money from

551
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:33,920
Speaker 4: those subsidy programs. The USDA, for example, is a lender

552
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 4: of last resort, and that means you had to get

553
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 4: rejected from other agencies other banks in order to get

554
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 4: a loan from them. And there's this long documented history

555
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:47,080
Speaker 4: showing that black farmers have had a tougher time getting

556
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:49,440
Speaker 4: those loans. And when they get those loans, they're not

557
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:51,040
Speaker 4: as much as they would have wanted them to be,

558
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 4: or maybe they're delayed so that they don't come when

559
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 4: the farmer might need it for planting, they come much later.

560
00:30:56,760 --> 00:31:00,920
Speaker 4: And then that kind of has a chain reaction to right.

561
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:04,240
Speaker 2: And yeah, like in this, like in this telling of

562
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 2: it or just like this you know, examination of the

563
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:12,800
Speaker 2: the industry, you just realize that the USDA is doing

564
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:16,080
Speaker 2: some of the most vile shit, like in terms of

565
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 2: disenfranchising these farmers or putting them essentially into like a

566
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:23,959
Speaker 2: debt trap to dispossess their land. And I know, like

567
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:27,240
Speaker 2: it's like you'll never find a document that says this

568
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:31,280
Speaker 2: is our mandate as the USDA. But when you look

569
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:35,760
Speaker 2: at how the USDA was interacting with black farmers that

570
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:37,880
Speaker 2: were looking for loans and things like that, it's as

571
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 2: wild how so many of the people that you spoke

572
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:41,600
Speaker 2: to were sort of saying, like, the second I took

573
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,320
Speaker 2: that loan was basically the end, Like when I began

574
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 2: to rely on the USDA and the just the hoops

575
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:51,000
Speaker 2: and things that people have to jump through just for

576
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:54,560
Speaker 2: the simplest things is really like mind blowing. Like can

577
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:57,520
Speaker 2: you kind of just paint a picture for people sort

578
00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:00,240
Speaker 2: of how the us like how this game is set

579
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 2: up with the USDA, of how like because I think

580
00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:04,480
Speaker 2: normal people would be like, oh, yeah, what's the problem.

581
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:06,400
Speaker 2: You get your loan, if you have an off year,

582
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 2: you tell them, they understand and then maybe they work

583
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 2: with you to make something happen. But that really wasn't

584
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 2: the case for black farmers really ever.

585
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:19,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, So, like in the past, USDA had a system

586
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:23,920
Speaker 4: where county committees, who are like local farmers would have

587
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 4: a lot of influence deciding who is creditworthy, and so

588
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 4: you know, they could decide like that black farmer, for example,

589
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 4: we don't want to give him a loan. Or one

590
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:38,040
Speaker 4: of the experts we talked to says how the county

591
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:40,040
Speaker 4: committee person could say, well, I have my eye on

592
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:42,000
Speaker 4: that piece of property that they have, and I know

593
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 4: if this loan is delayed or denied, that it's only

594
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 4: a matter of time before that piece of property will

595
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 4: be you know, out in the market.

596
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 2: Right.

597
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:54,640
Speaker 4: So that was, you know, one way that affected black farmers.

598
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:58,040
Speaker 4: Another is loan officers have a lot of discretion and

599
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:02,280
Speaker 4: deciding who gets lows and who doesn't, and how supportive

600
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:05,360
Speaker 4: they can be when that farmer is in trouble and

601
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 4: they're farmers, older farmers and then younger farmers like me

602
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 4: who tells us his story of how he felt he

603
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 4: didn't get the flexibility that he needed from his loan officer.

604
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 2: Right, it's like, do you think you know, like in

605
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 2: looking at it too, because you know, Nate, the one

606
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 2: of the farmers that you speak with, talks about how

607
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 2: when he's asking for his loan to be restructured or something,

608
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:29,760
Speaker 2: their solution is basically like, why don't you just sell

609
00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 2: your land then and or like sell your cattle, and

610
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:36,240
Speaker 2: they're like, but that's how I make my living, So

611
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 2: if I do that, that renders me like inert from

612
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:43,760
Speaker 2: a business standpoint. And like with that, like knowing that

613
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:46,080
Speaker 2: that you had these sort of credit bureaus of like

614
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:49,480
Speaker 2: local like landed farmers who are the ones determining who

615
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 2: were like kind of behind the scenes or at least

616
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 2: how to like a seat at the table to determine

617
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 2: who got loans. It feels like that sort of I

618
00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 2: got my eye on that property sort of energy has

619
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:04,600
Speaker 2: just kind of persisted throughout like the like the decades

620
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:05,160
Speaker 2: following it.

621
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 4: I mean, I think we know for sure through what

622
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 4: mid nineties, because that's what Pickford was based on. Like

623
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:16,240
Speaker 4: we know that. The trickier question is to what extent

624
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:19,640
Speaker 4: is this happening now? Like to what extent has it continued?

625
00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:23,160
Speaker 4: And people like me, obviously through his experience, feel like

626
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:26,120
Speaker 4: it has. You know, other folks would argue that USAA

627
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:27,840
Speaker 4: has done a number of things to try to rectify

628
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:31,560
Speaker 4: this that I guess the we're still trying to figure

629
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 4: it out, right.

630
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 1: Can you talk about you did mention that there's racial

631
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:39,280
Speaker 1: violence that played a role in this over the course

632
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:43,239
Speaker 1: of like the transition from the from nineteen twenty to

633
00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 1: the late nineties. Can you just talk about what that was,

634
00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:49,800
Speaker 1: what that looked like, because I think that's probably helpful

635
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:53,960
Speaker 1: when then coming into this and being like and then

636
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:58,920
Speaker 1: this is a world that was like self policing, where

637
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 1: like the us DA just gets to use their own

638
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:08,840
Speaker 1: judgment to make financial decisions. But what was what was

639
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 1: happening at that at that time?

640
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:18,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean outside of the Deep South. I guess

641
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:21,719
Speaker 4: some would consider Oklahoma still part of that, but Oklahoma

642
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:26,719
Speaker 4: has like one of the highest documented things outside of

643
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:29,719
Speaker 4: the Deep South traditional Deep South, And you know there's

644
00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 4: stories Oklahoma elsewhere are folks kind of abandoning their property

645
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 4: because of fear of racial violence from white farmers, white landowners.

646
00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:42,480
Speaker 4: So I mean that's that's kind of outside of USDA,

647
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:47,279
Speaker 4: but that's something that's functioned to dispossess black farmers as well.

648
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:52,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, USDA, I mainly knew prior to this for like

649
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:59,040
Speaker 1: grating my eggs and meat, right kind of my experience

650
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:03,399
Speaker 1: with the USDA. But truly like they've set up this

651
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:10,000
Speaker 1: Kafka esque like just system like that there's one scene

652
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:16,080
Speaker 1: where they discover like that this USDA Civil Rights agency

653
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:20,239
Speaker 1: that they've been sending their complaints to the office just

654
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:23,640
Speaker 1: like doesn't exist. Their letters have been just like piling

655
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:26,200
Speaker 1: up in an office somewhere, and when it comes time

656
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:31,279
Speaker 1: to like actually look at their complaints and what the

657
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:35,840
Speaker 1: USDA was doing, the court is just like, we can't

658
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:39,239
Speaker 1: use the letters as evidence because they never open. Like

659
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:41,759
Speaker 1: basically the logic is like they never open them, so

660
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:45,360
Speaker 1: what are they supposed to do? But yeah, it's like

661
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 1: the judicial historical equivalent of like plugging your ears and

662
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:51,880
Speaker 1: saying la la laa Okay, I can't hear you, so

663
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:54,840
Speaker 1: like it doesn't count. But yeah, it's just a whole

664
00:36:54,880 --> 00:37:01,400
Speaker 1: different level of like illogic and injustice that like it

665
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:03,840
Speaker 1: was crazy to hear about. Yeah.

666
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:07,960
Speaker 4: Yeah. During with the Oregan administration, that's when the Civil

667
00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:11,200
Speaker 4: Rights Office was like pretty much closed. So you had

668
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 4: farmers sending in their discrimination complaints and they weren't going

669
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:18,359
Speaker 4: anywhere right, like nobody was reading them. They were were

670
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:21,880
Speaker 4: just kind of piling up in a room that and

671
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:24,880
Speaker 4: nobody was monitoring them. So that was one of the

672
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:28,319
Speaker 4: things that really fed into the Pickford suit that even

673
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:33,160
Speaker 4: when farmers filed complaints of discrimination there they weren't being addressed,

674
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 4: there was no one to address them.

675
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:38,560
Speaker 2: Right, And it's again like it feels like the USDA

676
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:41,400
Speaker 2: is just like another example of many other agencies or

677
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:47,239
Speaker 2: institutions that like after decades of discriminatory behavior, they'll be like, oh, yeah,

678
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:52,480
Speaker 2: it turns out we may have been doing some bad stuff.

679
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:55,000
Speaker 2: And then it just kind of feels like it sort

680
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:59,520
Speaker 2: of peters out there because it felt like, especially when

681
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:04,200
Speaker 2: discussing the Pickford for versus Clickman, right, is the case

682
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 2: that there was a moment for this to potentially create

683
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:14,240
Speaker 2: some kind of sea change, but it just it just didn't.

684
00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 2: And a lot of that, I'm sure too, like as

685
00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:19,759
Speaker 2: you ex like as the reporting shows, like the in

686
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:22,200
Speaker 2: the show is that a lot of it too is

687
00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:25,719
Speaker 2: also like by design, by like offering these farmers, like

688
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 2: when the like in a settlement that it was just

689
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:31,160
Speaker 2: kind of like pick your poison here and neither are

690
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:34,839
Speaker 2: actually going to fully address all of the injustices that

691
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:35,800
Speaker 2: you had to suffer.

692
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:40,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, So there was a settlement agreement and so this

693
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:42,920
Speaker 4: case never went to trial, so farmers never had the

694
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 4: opportunity to really like tell their case in court, but

695
00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:51,680
Speaker 4: they decided on the settlement that didn't actually require USDA

696
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:54,359
Speaker 4: to come out and say, you know, we did wrong,

697
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:56,239
Speaker 4: We're going to change our ways, we're going to fire

698
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:58,400
Speaker 4: folks who were involved in this, like none of that

699
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:04,080
Speaker 4: had to happen, and the settlement offered two tracks for

700
00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:08,839
Speaker 4: folks to follow. One of those tracks basically they had

701
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:12,279
Speaker 4: to show some level of paper where they had just

702
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:14,759
Speaker 4: proved some level of discrimination and they would get fifty

703
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:17,759
Speaker 4: thousand dollars. But they also had to show like that

704
00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:20,600
Speaker 4: there was a white farmer in a similarly situated position

705
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:24,759
Speaker 4: that they suffered an economic loss. That was supposedly the

706
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:28,600
Speaker 4: easy track. And then there was Track B, and that

707
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:31,600
Speaker 4: one they had to gather more paperwork, they had to

708
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:33,960
Speaker 4: present it at like a mini trial. They had to

709
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:36,920
Speaker 4: show that their damages were greater than fifty thousand dollars,

710
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:40,640
Speaker 4: and then they had to convince an arbitrator of all

711
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:45,440
Speaker 4: that and they could potentially get a substantial amount of money.

712
00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:49,400
Speaker 4: The farmer that we talked to, Eddie, says that the

713
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:53,440
Speaker 4: lawyers really encouraged the farmers to go with Track A

714
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:56,880
Speaker 4: and not Track B, and part of that was because

715
00:39:56,920 --> 00:40:00,160
Speaker 4: Track A offered the possibility of debt forgive. Now, yes,

716
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:04,320
Speaker 4: if they could find discrimination attached to the loan in question.

717
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:06,839
Speaker 4: So he argues, that's why a bunch of us went

718
00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:10,320
Speaker 4: with track A, something like I think like two percent

719
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:13,080
Speaker 4: or less than two percent went with truck b Wow.

720
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:15,440
Speaker 4: And in the end, a lot of folks didn't end

721
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:17,560
Speaker 4: up who went with TRACKA didn't end up getting that

722
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:18,680
Speaker 4: loan forgiveness.

723
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 2: It's that's what's like really harrowing, especially that when you

724
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:27,239
Speaker 2: talk about Eddie and you know, the never ending fight

725
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:31,840
Speaker 2: with the USDA of how it's always him or the

726
00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:34,920
Speaker 2: farmers trying to prove that they're worthy of these loans,

727
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:37,440
Speaker 2: that they're being left out all the while that the

728
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:42,040
Speaker 2: USDA uses things like offsets, which is like this practice

729
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:43,880
Speaker 2: to say like, well, if you can't pay some of

730
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:46,080
Speaker 2: this debt that you have, we'll just take this out

731
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:50,400
Speaker 2: of your fifty thousand dollars settlement from the USDA. Like

732
00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:54,840
Speaker 2: the it just feels like never ending, and like the

733
00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:59,720
Speaker 2: frustration that comes out in some of these these people's

734
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:04,319
Speaker 2: voice is it's really really like it's heartbreaking because at

735
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:05,960
Speaker 2: the end of the day, they're trying to do something

736
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:09,080
Speaker 2: as simple as just like grow things on the land

737
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:11,279
Speaker 2: and have a very simple life. They're not saying like

738
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:13,200
Speaker 2: I'm trying to live outside of my means or do

739
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:16,400
Speaker 2: something extravagant. It's like I like to I like to farm,

740
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:21,040
Speaker 2: and we're not given this opportunity, And and every other turn,

741
00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:24,920
Speaker 2: it feels like they have to constantly fight just to

742
00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 2: not have their their their their finances whittled away at

743
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:30,560
Speaker 2: to the point that they are so destitute that the

744
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:33,600
Speaker 2: only option is to give up everything and give up land.

745
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:37,319
Speaker 2: And they all talk about how important like the land is,

746
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:40,120
Speaker 2: Like it's sometimes it's not even about the money. It's

747
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:43,920
Speaker 2: the fact that especially for uh, for Black Americans, that

748
00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:46,440
Speaker 2: owning that piece of land is such a vital part

749
00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:50,160
Speaker 2: of your longevity of you being able to have something

750
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:53,200
Speaker 2: to give to your your your descendants and things like that.

751
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:56,000
Speaker 2: And that must have been so difficult to like, I mean,

752
00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:58,040
Speaker 2: did you have any I'm sure you had a sense

753
00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:02,239
Speaker 2: of how like backwards this whole thing was, but like,

754
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:06,160
Speaker 2: did it just kind of make you more angry or

755
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:08,160
Speaker 2: what was that like? Because I like listening to it,

756
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:10,080
Speaker 2: I wanted to like scream half the time.

757
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:15,040
Speaker 4: I would say it made me angry. Necessarily, I think

758
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:17,840
Speaker 4: sometimes when you're like you're so seeped in it, it's

759
00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:21,880
Speaker 4: like you lose a little bit of that. But I think,

760
00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:27,960
Speaker 4: I mean, folks like Eddie are so passionate about this cause,

761
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:33,040
Speaker 4: and I think farmers in general, regardless of race, are

762
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:35,880
Speaker 4: really attached to the land. I mean, it's a multi

763
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:40,239
Speaker 4: generational life, right. They're not just thinking about themselves, They're

764
00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:43,359
Speaker 4: thinking about who's coming up after them, because they want

765
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:46,439
Speaker 4: the name to be carried on, you know, well after them.

766
00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:49,360
Speaker 4: And I think the stakes are obviously so much higher

767
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:53,239
Speaker 4: for black farmers given everything that folks went through to

768
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:57,200
Speaker 4: just to hold on to that land, with the violence

769
00:42:57,239 --> 00:43:00,600
Speaker 4: and with the economic issues that they faced one hundred

770
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:05,040
Speaker 4: years ago. To have it now is like it's huge.

771
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:09,480
Speaker 4: So yeah, it's I mean, it is a sad story

772
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:11,960
Speaker 4: when we think about just everything that's involved.

773
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:15,000
Speaker 1: Let's take a quick break and we'll come back and

774
00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:18,200
Speaker 1: talk about just where where you see things heading and

775
00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:20,720
Speaker 1: where you kind of leave things at the end of

776
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:38,239
Speaker 1: the show and we're back and yeah, so I don't know,

777
00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:45,319
Speaker 1: you mentioned that, like there's this potential settlement and Nate

778
00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:51,360
Speaker 1: seems hopeful and then politically the USDA, like there's this

779
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:54,480
Speaker 1: shift where they feel like they still need to center

780
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:58,760
Speaker 1: white farmers, like the story still needs to be about

781
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:04,200
Speaker 1: white farmers for the government to deliver the aid. And

782
00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:09,440
Speaker 1: this is under Biden, right, right, So yeah, can you

783
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:10,040
Speaker 1: talk about that.

784
00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:12,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, So that the Pickford Settlement, they're actually two. There

785
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:14,480
Speaker 4: was a second one for folks who didn't make it

786
00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:17,480
Speaker 4: to the first. So the first settlement was like nineteen

787
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:19,640
Speaker 4: ninety nine. The next one I think was around twenty ten.

788
00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:25,640
Speaker 4: And there's still this looming issue of the debt. A

789
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:28,160
Speaker 4: lot of Pickford claimants that I've spoken to at least

790
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:31,719
Speaker 4: they you know, they talk about how Eddie talk about

791
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:34,200
Speaker 4: how this debt has really affected them moving forward or

792
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:37,160
Speaker 4: in their credit score because they didn't get the loan

793
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:40,879
Speaker 4: forgiveness that they were expecting in Pickford. And a lot

794
00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:44,719
Speaker 4: of the advocacy of those folks led to the Justice

795
00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:48,160
Speaker 4: for Black Farmers Act, which was introduced by Senator Brooker

796
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:51,600
Speaker 4: and others that had this provision to try to relieve

797
00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:54,120
Speaker 4: those some of those farm loan debts of the Pickford claimants.

798
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:56,160
Speaker 4: And then that led to what we saw in the

799
00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:59,640
Speaker 4: Biden administration of trying to relieve the debts of all

800
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:03,000
Speaker 4: farm of color not just black farmers, and that was

801
00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:06,960
Speaker 4: in the American Rescue Plan Act. But there were lots

802
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:12,719
Speaker 4: of challenges from white farmers with support from conservative individuals

803
00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:16,120
Speaker 4: and groups like Steven Miller from the Trump administration, and

804
00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:20,840
Speaker 4: you know, they argued this program is discriminatory against racially

805
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:24,920
Speaker 4: discriminatory against US white farmers. A federal judge ended up

806
00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:29,520
Speaker 4: putting like a blocking the program. Congress had to change course,

807
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:33,040
Speaker 4: and in the Inflation Reduction Act that passed last year,

808
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:36,879
Speaker 4: the American Rescue Plan Program was rescinded. There's a couple

809
00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:41,279
Speaker 4: new programs included. One is for anyone that can show

810
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:44,399
Speaker 4: discrimination and farmlann programs, you can get some money for that.

811
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:47,680
Speaker 4: And the other is basically like a form of debt

812
00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:52,239
Speaker 4: relief for economically distressed borrowers folks who they define as

813
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:53,360
Speaker 4: economically distressed.

814
00:45:53,640 --> 00:45:56,160
Speaker 2: Is there any I mean, like, is it's funny like

815
00:45:56,440 --> 00:46:00,880
Speaker 2: when the episode or I'm hearing about like the Pickford Care, Like, Okay,

816
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:04,080
Speaker 2: maybe there's some momentum going here, like maybe this can

817
00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:08,239
Speaker 2: this can be built upon, But does it seem like

818
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:12,319
Speaker 2: there's any sort of actual progress being made in terms

819
00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:15,160
Speaker 2: of like really addressing this because like to your point, right,

820
00:46:15,239 --> 00:46:17,680
Speaker 2: and I think like we kind of glossed over this,

821
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:21,360
Speaker 2: but so many of the farmers they begin there farming

822
00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:25,480
Speaker 2: by receiving a loan to even start this like this business,

823
00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:27,839
Speaker 2: to get to the land and things like that. So

824
00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:31,560
Speaker 2: you're already on the hook with them from the beginning

825
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:34,480
Speaker 2: and when and then you add all of the hoops

826
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:37,120
Speaker 2: that have to jump through that are made essentially bringing

827
00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:41,239
Speaker 2: people to like a very desperate point. Is like you know,

828
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:43,520
Speaker 2: like with even that, what was the one report that

829
00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:45,359
Speaker 2: came out of the USDA where they're like, oh, yeah,

830
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:47,040
Speaker 2: this this has been kind of bad. It was like

831
00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:51,759
Speaker 2: one of the internal reports. Is there like what is

832
00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:56,160
Speaker 2: there anything that is actually beginning to alter that? Or

833
00:46:56,320 --> 00:46:58,319
Speaker 2: is does this feel sort of like how are the

834
00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:00,480
Speaker 2: farmers looking at do they feel there's progress or even

835
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:03,200
Speaker 2: from your perspective from the outside, is there any progress

836
00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:05,319
Speaker 2: being made on actually addressing this.

837
00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:09,080
Speaker 4: I mean, from my reporting, I would argue that there

838
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:13,000
Speaker 4: is some progress being made. I mean, the Biden administration

839
00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:17,200
Speaker 4: did try to do a race based program and it

840
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:21,000
Speaker 4: didn't work. It's not in the court. The federal judge

841
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:23,320
Speaker 4: blocked it, so it didn't work, and then they changed

842
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:27,640
Speaker 4: course and did something that is color blind, but does

843
00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:32,400
Speaker 4: essentially appear to reach a good number of black farmers.

844
00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:35,160
Speaker 4: You know, it's reaching the moneys, are reaching folks who

845
00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:39,080
Speaker 4: are behind on their loan payments, and then it's paying

846
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:41,920
Speaker 4: some of those you know, back loan payments, and then

847
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:46,799
Speaker 4: the next installment. Black farmers are highly delinquent in their

848
00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:50,960
Speaker 4: USDA loans, so we know that it is reaching those folks,

849
00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:54,319
Speaker 4: but it's also reaching a good number of white farmers too, right,

850
00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:58,759
Speaker 4: So like, I mean, yes, these things are helpful, but

851
00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:01,640
Speaker 4: there is an argum meant to be made that because

852
00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:06,440
Speaker 4: of all this history of discrimination and how multi generational

853
00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:08,880
Speaker 4: farming is and the depths of my grandfather I might

854
00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:12,839
Speaker 4: be carrying today, right, that there should be some race

855
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:13,920
Speaker 4: based remedy instead.

856
00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:18,120
Speaker 2: Right. And again it's like it's every time there's any

857
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:22,080
Speaker 2: talk of restitution, reparations and things like that, the argument

858
00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:25,200
Speaker 2: is always like, but what about us? And it's like, well,

859
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:28,680
Speaker 2: if you do the math, like you know, some economists have,

860
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:32,719
Speaker 2: there was sixteen trillion dollars of wealth stolen from Black

861
00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:37,560
Speaker 2: Americans over the centuries. So like, in that sense, like

862
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:40,200
Speaker 2: it the things that are being asked for to try

863
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:42,439
Speaker 2: and bring balance to all of this is like such

864
00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:45,040
Speaker 2: a drop in the bucket. Yeah, but then you have

865
00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:47,680
Speaker 2: to have like white supremacy rear its head every time

866
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:50,360
Speaker 2: and have people say like, well, this is actually discriminating

867
00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:52,239
Speaker 2: against all the white people that actually benefited from those

868
00:48:52,239 --> 00:48:55,719
Speaker 2: policies to begin with. And off we go to I

869
00:48:55,719 --> 00:49:00,480
Speaker 2: feel like this sort of very circular topic where like

870
00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:04,600
Speaker 2: we're at what point is it going to? Yeah, as

871
00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:07,160
Speaker 2: the progress can like actually break through, because I feel

872
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:10,080
Speaker 2: like that's something that you know, many generations people not

873
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:12,560
Speaker 2: just farmers, look at and think of all the ways

874
00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:14,360
Speaker 2: their lives could have been different were it not for

875
00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:17,600
Speaker 2: redlining or were it not for the USDA and things

876
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:18,000
Speaker 2: like that.

877
00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:22,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, Dana Peterson is the economist in question. She said

878
00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:28,040
Speaker 1: the toll of racism against Black Americans economic racism against

879
00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:31,760
Speaker 1: Black Americans at sixteen trillion dollars over just the past

880
00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:36,240
Speaker 1: two decades. Like that's just in two decades, right, and

881
00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:37,080
Speaker 1: are staggering? Yeah?

882
00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:41,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I mean like at the end, how how

883
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:44,799
Speaker 2: like what is the outlook for for people like Nate

884
00:49:44,960 --> 00:49:47,960
Speaker 2: at the Georgia Line ranch like here, Like it's just

885
00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:51,600
Speaker 2: it's really heartening to hear that just despite the hardships

886
00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:55,480
Speaker 2: how still dedicated they are to wanting to realize their

887
00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:58,480
Speaker 2: dream of being like full like just doing full time agriculture.

888
00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:01,640
Speaker 2: Are like for him, is there like a sense of

889
00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:04,239
Speaker 2: relief because I hope, like because you like do such

890
00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:05,960
Speaker 2: a good job of connecting us to these people and

891
00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:07,880
Speaker 2: their stories. Like in the end, like when you told

892
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:11,040
Speaker 2: me like Eddie Pastor, I'm like, Eddie passed away, that's

893
00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:14,200
Speaker 2: and he had such a difficult life. I really want

894
00:50:14,239 --> 00:50:16,719
Speaker 2: to encourage everybody listening, you have to listen to this

895
00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:20,440
Speaker 2: series because like we're just giving you a very broad

896
00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:23,399
Speaker 2: outlook on it. The actually humanity of it at that level,

897
00:50:23,440 --> 00:50:27,759
Speaker 2: the human level is is really like eye opening and inspirational.

898
00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:31,480
Speaker 2: But is it like are people like Nate feeling like

899
00:50:31,800 --> 00:50:33,600
Speaker 2: does he feel like he's turning a corner or does

900
00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:35,600
Speaker 2: it still feel like this thing of like the never

901
00:50:35,719 --> 00:50:38,560
Speaker 2: ending fight with the USDA.

902
00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:39,080
Speaker 1: I don't.

903
00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:43,279
Speaker 4: I don't think Nate feels like he's turning a corner necessarily,

904
00:50:43,880 --> 00:50:47,360
Speaker 4: And I think it's too soon to tell how like

905
00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:50,200
Speaker 4: helpful some of these more recent changes are going to be.

906
00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:56,000
Speaker 4: But we also farmers are also operating in like a

907
00:50:56,080 --> 00:50:59,960
Speaker 4: high inflation environment. The cost of everything that's gone up,

908
00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:03,840
Speaker 4: A lot of this system hasn't changed, right, Like the

909
00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:07,960
Speaker 4: subsidies and helpful benefits are still going to the largest farmers.

910
00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:11,600
Speaker 4: There still aren't a whole lot of black farmers receiving

911
00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:14,520
Speaker 4: the support that they need from USDA, even though they

912
00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:18,640
Speaker 4: are trying to fix that. So, I I mean, Nate

913
00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:21,040
Speaker 4: is just kind of the type of person that's always

914
00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:24,880
Speaker 4: gonna find a way, right, Like, regardless of what the

915
00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:28,680
Speaker 4: circumstances are. He feels so strongly about leaving the land

916
00:51:28,760 --> 00:51:32,359
Speaker 4: and leaving the business to his kids. And I would

917
00:51:32,520 --> 00:51:36,080
Speaker 4: argue his kids are, you know, like they're pretty savvy kids, right,

918
00:51:36,120 --> 00:51:40,359
Speaker 4: Like one of them studying engineering, the others studying agribusiness,

919
00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:44,000
Speaker 4: and is really passionate about finance and just and also

920
00:51:44,120 --> 00:51:47,560
Speaker 4: like sharing financial literacy, you know, encouraging others to become

921
00:51:47,600 --> 00:51:50,279
Speaker 4: financially literate and sharing his knowledge with others to help

922
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:53,600
Speaker 4: his community. So I think like they're just starting in

923
00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:57,360
Speaker 4: a better place. And maybe that is like that's the

924
00:51:57,400 --> 00:51:59,080
Speaker 4: hope that we can find in it, that they will

925
00:51:59,120 --> 00:51:59,920
Speaker 4: they'll have a better.

926
00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:03,799
Speaker 2: Chance, right And I guess, what what do you think?

927
00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:06,400
Speaker 2: Like I guess for people who are like myself or

928
00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:09,719
Speaker 2: just in general who are learning about the complexities and

929
00:52:09,880 --> 00:52:12,560
Speaker 2: the injustices that are like, what are the kinds of

930
00:52:12,560 --> 00:52:16,320
Speaker 2: things we should keep in mind aside from the ongoing

931
00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:18,919
Speaker 2: justices that are happening, But in terms of like what,

932
00:52:18,920 --> 00:52:20,960
Speaker 2: what do you think the people that are on the

933
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:24,040
Speaker 2: ground want the rest of America to really understand to

934
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:26,520
Speaker 2: try and help contribute to something that's a little bit

935
00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:27,200
Speaker 2: more equitable.

936
00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:31,279
Speaker 4: I mean, I think it's always important to have like

937
00:52:31,320 --> 00:52:34,840
Speaker 4: just a deeper knowledge of what we are hearing and

938
00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:39,880
Speaker 4: reading about today. And it's like it's I guess it

939
00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:42,200
Speaker 4: requires a bit of work, but I mean there's some

940
00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:46,040
Speaker 4: great resources out there with the Environmental Working Group has

941
00:52:46,080 --> 00:52:49,279
Speaker 4: like a list of all these documents that are really

942
00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:51,520
Speaker 4: helpful at understanding the plight of black farmers and the

943
00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:55,440
Speaker 4: relationship with USDA. There's a wonderful book by Pete Daniel

944
00:52:55,520 --> 00:52:58,120
Speaker 4: called This Possession that talks about this history as well.

945
00:52:58,719 --> 00:53:01,960
Speaker 4: And I mean, when you read like the headlines, it's

946
00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:06,600
Speaker 4: just important to understand the background and how black farmers

947
00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:10,120
Speaker 4: and some other farmers of color have not gotten everything

948
00:53:10,239 --> 00:53:12,560
Speaker 4: all the support that they need. So I guess when

949
00:53:13,080 --> 00:53:15,879
Speaker 4: in general, when these colorblind arguments are coming up, which

950
00:53:15,920 --> 00:53:19,960
Speaker 4: is obviously very common and popular right now, just to

951
00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:22,160
Speaker 4: have this awareness of the past.

952
00:53:22,640 --> 00:53:25,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, you mentioned that it seems like this color blind

953
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:30,279
Speaker 1: argument of like how to interpret or how to execute

954
00:53:30,360 --> 00:53:34,319
Speaker 1: on the rural you know help and by the way,

955
00:53:34,440 --> 00:53:38,000
Speaker 1: just to farmers get some of the most help, like

956
00:53:38,120 --> 00:53:42,480
Speaker 1: in the world. This is like no farm succeeds without

957
00:53:42,520 --> 00:53:45,719
Speaker 1: a ton of government help and subsidies like that. That's

958
00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:49,960
Speaker 1: just the baseline for anything. So just I felt like

959
00:53:50,040 --> 00:53:54,240
Speaker 1: that was helpful information to know heading into the overall story.

960
00:53:54,239 --> 00:53:56,719
Speaker 1: But yeah, at one point you kind of mentioned that

961
00:53:56,800 --> 00:53:59,800
Speaker 1: it seems like they're taking their lead from the Affirmative

962
00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:04,880
Speaker 1: Act case and the modern kind of orthodoxy in the

963
00:54:04,880 --> 00:54:08,120
Speaker 1: mainstream government where it's like, well, we're just color blind

964
00:54:08,200 --> 00:54:12,799
Speaker 1: and we'll help anyone in need, not just because we

965
00:54:13,560 --> 00:54:17,960
Speaker 1: now starting now don't see race, right, you know, even though.

966
00:54:17,840 --> 00:54:20,480
Speaker 2: If you ask for documents like that was another really

967
00:54:20,520 --> 00:54:23,080
Speaker 2: frustrating thing, Like you were filing for your request to

968
00:54:23,200 --> 00:54:27,880
Speaker 2: actually be able to analyze how black farmers were specifically

969
00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:31,520
Speaker 2: affected by these policies, and it just seemed like even

970
00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:33,239
Speaker 2: before you even got an answer, like a lot of

971
00:54:33,280 --> 00:54:35,120
Speaker 2: the people you were talking to that were in the

972
00:54:35,120 --> 00:54:38,600
Speaker 2: community or like you're not gonna give you anything. It's

973
00:54:38,680 --> 00:54:42,160
Speaker 2: a black box that will just those truths are not

974
00:54:42,200 --> 00:54:44,520
Speaker 2: going to be revealed. Have you have any of those

975
00:54:44,719 --> 00:54:47,760
Speaker 2: Has there been any like progress on any of those requests,

976
00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:49,279
Speaker 2: or it's just truly just one of those things where

977
00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:51,479
Speaker 2: it's like, yeah, sorry, we can give you this very

978
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:54,279
Speaker 2: like a fraction of what you're asking for, but that's it.

979
00:54:55,280 --> 00:54:58,480
Speaker 4: Not yet. I mean, we did file a lawsuit about it,

980
00:54:58,640 --> 00:55:02,480
Speaker 4: and we're still you know, waiting and going through that process.

981
00:55:02,960 --> 00:55:03,400
Speaker 2: Yeah.

982
00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:05,480
Speaker 4: I mean there have been other Foyer requests that I

983
00:55:05,520 --> 00:55:08,799
Speaker 4: file that I've gotten a response on, but not with

984
00:55:08,840 --> 00:55:12,959
Speaker 4: that that particular request that where we talk about, which

985
00:55:13,040 --> 00:55:17,680
Speaker 4: just makes it really difficult to understand the extent black

986
00:55:17,719 --> 00:55:21,920
Speaker 4: farmers have been getting, you know, specific loans, or the

987
00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:26,000
Speaker 4: extent that they any amount of those loans, just you know,

988
00:55:26,040 --> 00:55:27,960
Speaker 4: really how they're operating in this larger and.

989
00:55:27,960 --> 00:55:30,440
Speaker 2: Dire right because then when you asked for like at

990
00:55:30,440 --> 00:55:33,480
Speaker 2: a county level or lower like so you can actually

991
00:55:33,520 --> 00:55:36,640
Speaker 2: begin to group the data and see, oh, look at

992
00:55:36,680 --> 00:55:39,680
Speaker 2: these like these farmers are here and experiencing this kind

993
00:55:39,680 --> 00:55:41,719
Speaker 2: of trial and tribulation, and you would be able to

994
00:55:41,760 --> 00:55:44,560
Speaker 2: sort of like put that against what you're seeing, like

995
00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:49,200
Speaker 2: white farms do, but that information has been completely just withheld.

996
00:55:49,880 --> 00:55:53,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, well because of privacy law, they don't and you know,

997
00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:57,000
Speaker 4: if there it's rural spaces, there are so few like

998
00:55:57,320 --> 00:55:59,480
Speaker 4: people of color in some of these counties, right, They

999
00:55:59,480 --> 00:56:01,480
Speaker 4: don't want to They don't want anyone to be able

1000
00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:03,759
Speaker 4: to look at the data and know who that could be.

1001
00:56:04,560 --> 00:56:06,279
Speaker 2: Well like extrapolate from that, right guy.

1002
00:56:06,480 --> 00:56:08,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, so that would be USDA's argument that you know,

1003
00:56:08,960 --> 00:56:12,040
Speaker 4: they don't want to disclose anything that they're not supposed

1004
00:56:12,080 --> 00:56:12,759
Speaker 4: to disclose.

1005
00:56:12,960 --> 00:56:15,320
Speaker 2: Of course. Yeah, they're so concerned, they're so concerned.

1006
00:56:16,239 --> 00:56:20,719
Speaker 1: Right, Well, April Simpson, it's been such a pleasure having

1007
00:56:20,760 --> 00:56:23,960
Speaker 1: you on the daily Zeitgeist. Where can people find the

1008
00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:26,440
Speaker 1: show first of all and then find you, follow you

1009
00:56:26,719 --> 00:56:27,759
Speaker 1: and read more from you?

1010
00:56:28,160 --> 00:56:31,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, thank you. So you can learn more about our

1011
00:56:31,160 --> 00:56:35,440
Speaker 4: project at public Integrity dot org. You can follow me

1012
00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:37,319
Speaker 4: on Twitter at April Latissia.

1013
00:56:37,920 --> 00:56:39,560
Speaker 2: I like, thank you for calling on Twitter, if not

1014
00:56:39,680 --> 00:56:42,880
Speaker 2: Twitter or formally X or we call it Twitter formally

1015
00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:45,560
Speaker 2: X around here. So yeah, Twitter for sure.

1016
00:56:46,120 --> 00:56:48,360
Speaker 1: Is there a work of media that you've been enjoying?

1017
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:52,000
Speaker 4: I davy quick thing again, I don't I don't have time.

1018
00:56:53,440 --> 00:56:57,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I get that looking at my child.

1019
00:56:59,800 --> 00:57:01,919
Speaker 4: But I'm going to New Orleans soon and I saw

1020
00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:05,520
Speaker 4: this list recently of like best New Orleans restaurants, So okay,

1021
00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:06,920
Speaker 4: seeing what I can hit.

1022
00:57:07,520 --> 00:57:10,359
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, nice, sounds about right, sounds about right.

1023
00:57:10,760 --> 00:57:12,839
Speaker 1: Miles Where can people find you? Is there a worker

1024
00:57:12,920 --> 00:57:14,200
Speaker 1: media you've been enjoying?

1025
00:57:14,560 --> 00:57:20,080
Speaker 2: Find me Twitter formally x and Instagram. Other at based platforms,

1026
00:57:20,120 --> 00:57:22,400
Speaker 2: Miles of Gray. If you like basketball, you can check

1027
00:57:22,400 --> 00:57:25,080
Speaker 2: out our basketball podcast Miles and jack out mathbost. I

1028
00:57:25,080 --> 00:57:27,360
Speaker 2: feel like ninety day Fiance. Check out my ninety Day

1029
00:57:27,360 --> 00:57:31,080
Speaker 2: Fiance podcast for twenty day Fiance. That's how I offset

1030
00:57:31,400 --> 00:57:33,560
Speaker 2: the terrible things that we have to deal with when

1031
00:57:33,560 --> 00:57:35,880
Speaker 2: we talk about our news and our reality every day.

1032
00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:39,440
Speaker 2: So join me there, uh, work of media, Like I

1033
00:57:39,520 --> 00:57:42,920
Speaker 2: just started watching the goose Bumps show that was like

1034
00:57:43,000 --> 00:57:48,520
Speaker 2: on no as they rebooted it. So as a geriatric millennial,

1035
00:57:49,000 --> 00:57:51,320
Speaker 2: I see the goose Bumps font and I have a

1036
00:57:51,360 --> 00:57:53,640
Speaker 2: reaction because I was like, my one of my favorite

1037
00:57:53,640 --> 00:57:57,160
Speaker 2: book series, and it's kind of it's it's interesting. I'm

1038
00:57:57,160 --> 00:58:01,400
Speaker 2: only a two episodes in, but it's doing something freaky

1039
00:58:01,480 --> 00:58:02,960
Speaker 2: with it. That's to a point, where I'm like, is

1040
00:58:02,960 --> 00:58:04,880
Speaker 2: this for kids? And it's like it's not really, it's

1041
00:58:04,880 --> 00:58:09,520
Speaker 2: like young adults, but ghost bumps on this spooky day amazing.

1042
00:58:09,880 --> 00:58:12,840
Speaker 1: You can find me on Twitter at Jack Underscore O'Brien

1043
00:58:13,480 --> 00:58:17,920
Speaker 1: tweet I've been enjoying Jackson at Placed Underscore Onto tweeted,

1044
00:58:17,960 --> 00:58:21,240
Speaker 1: there should be there should only be one fruit per color.

1045
00:58:21,400 --> 00:58:23,480
Speaker 1: If I see a yellow fruit, I shouldn't have to

1046
00:58:23,520 --> 00:58:27,360
Speaker 1: second guess whether it's not a lemon. That's my level

1047
00:58:27,400 --> 00:58:28,800
Speaker 1: of agricultural thinking.

1048
00:58:29,000 --> 00:58:31,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a squash, that's a lemon.

1049
00:58:31,840 --> 00:58:34,480
Speaker 1: That's a lemon. Dude, Come on, what hell yellow?

1050
00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:35,959
Speaker 2: It does? Crack that thing open?

1051
00:58:36,200 --> 00:58:40,400
Speaker 1: And Ben Rosen at Ben Underscore Rosen tweeted, forget it, Jake,

1052
00:58:40,640 --> 00:58:46,840
Speaker 1: it's giving China Town. You can find me on Twitter

1053
00:58:46,840 --> 00:58:49,000
Speaker 1: at Jack Underscore O'Brian. You can find us on Twitter

1054
00:58:49,000 --> 00:58:51,920
Speaker 1: at daily Zeikeeist for a d Daily Zeitgeist on Instagram.

1055
00:58:51,920 --> 00:58:54,440
Speaker 1: We have a Facebook campage and a website daily zeikeist

1056
00:58:54,440 --> 00:58:56,880
Speaker 1: dot com, where we post our episodes and our footnotes.

1057
00:58:57,600 --> 00:58:59,240
Speaker 1: We link off to the information that we talked about

1058
00:58:59,320 --> 00:59:01,640
Speaker 1: today is so as well as a song that we

1059
00:59:01,680 --> 00:59:06,640
Speaker 1: think you might enjoy. Miles what song on this Halloween.

1060
00:59:07,080 --> 00:59:09,720
Speaker 1: Oh hallo z E do you think about I enjoy?

1061
00:59:09,880 --> 00:59:12,200
Speaker 2: I didn't even think of trying to think of something spooky,

1062
00:59:12,320 --> 00:59:15,200
Speaker 2: just something nice to listen to, because not everybody wants

1063
00:59:15,200 --> 00:59:19,240
Speaker 2: to be spooky. This track is called Andromeda by ethel

1064
00:59:19,320 --> 00:59:21,640
Speaker 2: E t h e L. And it said really dope track.

1065
00:59:21,720 --> 00:59:25,480
Speaker 2: She's a I like, I like whispery vocals over like

1066
00:59:25,520 --> 00:59:28,440
Speaker 2: a good backbeat and that's exactly what this provides. So

1067
00:59:28,480 --> 00:59:30,720
Speaker 2: this is Andromeda by Ethyl.

1068
00:59:30,800 --> 00:59:34,440
Speaker 1: Whispers or Create Our Spooky. The Andromeda Strain is a

1069
00:59:34,480 --> 00:59:35,160
Speaker 1: scary book.

1070
00:59:35,360 --> 00:59:37,480
Speaker 2: My dad may tried to make me watch that movie

1071
00:59:38,160 --> 00:59:39,960
Speaker 2: as a kid. It was like one of those old

1072
00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:40,600
Speaker 2: people movies.

1073
00:59:40,600 --> 00:59:42,880
Speaker 1: He's like, you're gonna like this, This one is gonna

1074
00:59:42,880 --> 00:59:43,800
Speaker 1: blow your hairbag.

1075
00:59:43,960 --> 00:59:44,160
Speaker 5: Son.

1076
00:59:44,320 --> 00:59:46,640
Speaker 2: I was like, this is gonna make me fall asleep

1077
00:59:46,720 --> 00:59:49,200
Speaker 2: and question whether or not there were actual good movies

1078
00:59:49,240 --> 00:59:49,600
Speaker 2: back then.

1079
00:59:50,960 --> 00:59:53,240
Speaker 1: Well. The Daily Zey Guy is the production of iHeartRadio.

1080
00:59:53,280 --> 00:59:55,720
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio

1081
00:59:55,760 --> 00:59:58,400
Speaker 1: ab Apple podcast or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

1082
00:59:58,440 --> 01:00:00,760
Speaker 1: That's gonna do it for us this morning, back this

1083
01:00:00,800 --> 01:00:02,840
Speaker 1: afternoon to tell you what is trending and we will

1084
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Speaker 1: touch you out the bight,