1
00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:07,360
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny and Samantha. I know, come with

2
00:00:07,400 --> 00:00:09,360
Speaker 1: stephone never told your protection of iHeartRadio.

3
00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:22,959
Speaker 2: And we're on part three of our extended series. Because

4
00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:26,040
Speaker 2: y'all is getting longer and longer as we work on it.

5
00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:28,880
Speaker 2: I guess we should have known. This is kind of

6
00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:31,960
Speaker 2: why we were so hesitant to begin with. But yeah,

7
00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:36,640
Speaker 2: we're here talking about Christianity and religious trauma with the

8
00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:41,160
Speaker 2: marginalized people. Yeah, and we're talking a lot about religious trauma.

9
00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:44,240
Speaker 2: And I feel like doing the like basic building blocks

10
00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:49,400
Speaker 2: to this is almost as long as everything else because

11
00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:53,760
Speaker 2: we're also having to like decipher I guess through what

12
00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:57,200
Speaker 2: specific issues we want to talk about. And again, y'ell,

13
00:00:57,320 --> 00:00:59,920
Speaker 2: it's a lot. And because of that, we do have

14
00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:03,120
Speaker 2: content warning for this specific episode. We're going to talk

15
00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:07,200
Speaker 2: about sex, sexual abuse, religious trauma, harassment, and we're going

16
00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:09,960
Speaker 2: to we mentioned rape, but we do definitely talk about

17
00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:11,840
Speaker 2: rape culture in itself as well.

18
00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:17,440
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, And if you haven't heard our other episodes

19
00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:19,640
Speaker 1: on this, especially our last one for this one where

20
00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:23,920
Speaker 1: we introduced religious trauma syndrome, please go check those out

21
00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:27,840
Speaker 1: important to this episode. Here's a quick definition from that episode.

22
00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:31,600
Speaker 1: Religious trauma syndrome is the condition experienced by people who

23
00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:35,600
Speaker 1: are struggling with leaving an authoritarian, dogmatic religion and coping

24
00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:38,600
Speaker 1: with the damage of indoctrination. They may be going through

25
00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:41,760
Speaker 1: the shattering of a personally meaningful faith and or breaking

26
00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:45,680
Speaker 1: away from a controlling community and a lifestyle. URTS is

27
00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:48,880
Speaker 1: a function of both the chronic abuses of harmful religion

28
00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:51,760
Speaker 1: and the impact of severing one's connection with one's faith.

29
00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:55,360
Speaker 1: It can be compared to a combination of PTSD and

30
00:01:55,480 --> 00:02:00,520
Speaker 1: complex PTSD CPTSD And this was originally coined by psychologist

31
00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:01,720
Speaker 1: doctor Marlene Winnell.

32
00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:05,320
Speaker 2: And again we're still talking about some of the foundations

33
00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:09,000
Speaker 2: that women in the marginalized community may suffer from RTS.

34
00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:13,040
Speaker 2: And in this specific episode, we're actually going to visit

35
00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:15,560
Speaker 2: purity culture. And yeah, this is going to be a

36
00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:19,720
Speaker 2: small section because we kind of covered it before very quickly,

37
00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:23,480
Speaker 2: did not realize how large of a topic this is

38
00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:26,520
Speaker 2: and could be, and it could have kept going and

39
00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:29,280
Speaker 2: going and going, and as in fact, there's some specific

40
00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:32,720
Speaker 2: areas of purity culture that we're waiting to talk about

41
00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:37,280
Speaker 2: for another section. It's a lot, it's a lot, but yeah,

42
00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:41,720
Speaker 2: this specific episode we are talking and looking into religious

43
00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:45,760
Speaker 2: trauma and purity culture, and questioning a lot about religion

44
00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:48,640
Speaker 2: in general. Yeah, in the last episode we talked of

45
00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:52,560
Speaker 2: the misogyny of the interpretations of Biblical verses and traditions,

46
00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:55,440
Speaker 2: which is still held by different sects and churches today.

47
00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:58,639
Speaker 2: But today's episode is focusing again on the many layers

48
00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:02,600
Speaker 2: of how oppressive ideas like this one, specifically purity culture,

49
00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:05,960
Speaker 2: and how it's presented today. Again, we did a past

50
00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:09,280
Speaker 2: episode on the Myths of a virginity where we dug

51
00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:12,600
Speaker 2: into the misconception of purity and abstinence and how it

52
00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:16,000
Speaker 2: harmed women, so we were going to do a longer look.

53
00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:18,120
Speaker 2: We're going to take a deeper look at it and

54
00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:20,160
Speaker 2: how it relates to religious trauma.

55
00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:23,359
Speaker 1: Yes, and from our earlier episode we talked about purity

56
00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:25,640
Speaker 1: culture as something that has been around in the US

57
00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:29,120
Speaker 1: for quite some time, but in the early nineties, conservative

58
00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:32,760
Speaker 1: evangelist in the US Protestant groups organized a strategy one

59
00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:37,880
Speaker 1: person called extreme abstinence. Those who advocated for this would

60
00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:40,800
Speaker 1: advise girls and women to be submissive, stay away from

61
00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:44,960
Speaker 1: leadership roles, conformed to old ideals of courtship, not being

62
00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:50,640
Speaker 1: in mixed company unless regulated, and when they speak of courtship.

63
00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:53,640
Speaker 1: The practice involves making sure that the interaction between women

64
00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:57,560
Speaker 1: and men works, specifically to pursue an intent in marriage

65
00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:01,880
Speaker 1: under the explicit supervision and permission of the woman's father.

66
00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:06,120
Speaker 1: And as one article explains, quote, the expectation is that

67
00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:09,760
Speaker 1: pure young women will remain under the authority of their

68
00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:12,320
Speaker 1: fathers until they trade it for the authority of their

69
00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:16,160
Speaker 1: husbands and marriages arranged by their fathers.

70
00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:20,680
Speaker 2: Right, And we're going to be quoting and referencing many,

71
00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:23,880
Speaker 2: many articles, So we're going to try our best to

72
00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:27,480
Speaker 2: make sure we're correct in pronouncing their names. But if

73
00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:31,200
Speaker 2: we don't, let us know. If you know, we apologize

74
00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:35,719
Speaker 2: from the get go. So speaking of author Kayla Tricasso

75
00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:38,839
Speaker 2: writes in an article written in modern nmacy dot com,

76
00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:41,599
Speaker 2: the origin of purity culture or the faith based purity

77
00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:45,200
Speaker 2: culture movement, traces back in the nineteen nineties. Evangelical Christians

78
00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:48,440
Speaker 2: of the nineteen sixties free love movement started having children

79
00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:51,680
Speaker 2: of their own and believed that many of society's problems,

80
00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:54,840
Speaker 2: such as the as epidemic and rise of teen pregnancies,

81
00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:58,280
Speaker 2: was due to loose morals and sexual sins such as

82
00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:02,760
Speaker 2: having sex outside of marriage. Purity culture exists prominently today

83
00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:07,200
Speaker 2: in white Evangelical Christian, Mormon, and Southern Baptist communities. According

84
00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:10,279
Speaker 2: to sex therapists Linda K. Klain, which we will be

85
00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:13,760
Speaker 2: talking about later on as well, who has firsthand experienced

86
00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:16,520
Speaker 2: growing up with purity culture, Children and young adults who

87
00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:20,240
Speaker 2: receive purity teachings are directed to form a commitment to

88
00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:24,640
Speaker 2: God by abstaining from sex and remaining sexually pure until marriage.

89
00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:28,599
Speaker 2: And of course we want to emphasize that purity is

90
00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:31,680
Speaker 2: an abstract idea, an idea that He's used to discriminate

91
00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:37,360
Speaker 2: and detegrate marginalized people, very similar to the white supremacist rhetoric.

92
00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:39,920
Speaker 2: But again we'll dig into that later.

93
00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:43,320
Speaker 1: Yes. In a research piece written by the Department of

94
00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:46,919
Speaker 1: Counseling and School Psychology of the University of Massachusetts Boston,

95
00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:52,479
Speaker 1: titled Decolonizing Purity Culture, Gendered Racism and White Idealization and

96
00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:57,640
Speaker 1: Evangelical Christianity, they further explain gender and sexual control are

97
00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:00,320
Speaker 1: at the crux of the ethics of purity. Nique to

98
00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:02,800
Speaker 1: this movement are the types of tools and practices used

99
00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:06,480
Speaker 1: to enforce gender and sexual control. Popularized modalities for circulating

100
00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:09,720
Speaker 1: the purity movement rhetoric led to a sex obsessed culture

101
00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:13,920
Speaker 1: of chastity, including purity balls, virginity clubs, and ritualized elbacy pledges.

102
00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:17,520
Speaker 1: The most notable of these was the Southern Baptist Convention's

103
00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:20,960
Speaker 1: creation of the True Love Weights campaign, launched in nineteen

104
00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:24,040
Speaker 1: ninety three and known for large gatherings of teens making

105
00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:26,919
Speaker 1: public displays of their abstinence commitments.

106
00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:28,719
Speaker 2: I did this. I think we talked about this in

107
00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:30,960
Speaker 2: that last episode. Did you do this? Did you do

108
00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:33,919
Speaker 2: the True Love Weight? Oh yeah, we did talk about this.

109
00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:37,479
Speaker 2: You like walked away. You were actually really smart.

110
00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:41,359
Speaker 1: I was just like, I'm not sorry to anything.

111
00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:48,120
Speaker 2: Again. Smart, Like it's very purple at all of that.

112
00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:53,000
Speaker 2: And apparently it still exists today. I don't know, Well

113
00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:56,120
Speaker 2: maybe not, maybe not. It doesn't seem like it's a

114
00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:59,120
Speaker 2: lot of the articles that we found were dated, so

115
00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:02,120
Speaker 2: maybe not. But I think people have started to kind

116
00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:05,480
Speaker 2: of shy away from that. But yeah, I did it.

117
00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:08,240
Speaker 2: I'm sure I could probably find that card soy to

118
00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:16,240
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, oh yeah. Anyway, And in that same article,

119
00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:18,800
Speaker 2: they write, while much of the Purity teachings targeted youth

120
00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:22,200
Speaker 2: ministries and churches, its influence carried over into the larger

121
00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:25,800
Speaker 2: culture within public schooling sectors and national funding for abstinence

122
00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:31,440
Speaker 2: only until marriage or AOUM sex education, which they're talking

123
00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:34,280
Speaker 2: about doing again, and then actually it still exists, I

124
00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:37,520
Speaker 2: guess in different places. They still teach that the Purity

125
00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:41,800
Speaker 2: movement's reform of sexuality in the US based AOUM sex

126
00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:46,040
Speaker 2: education programs grew from the religious rights political influence as

127
00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:49,480
Speaker 2: well as a rise in white Christian nationalism. Yes, and

128
00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:51,280
Speaker 2: this is kind of what we're referring to, but again

129
00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:53,200
Speaker 2: we're going to talk about that later in this segment.

130
00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:55,720
Speaker 2: We're kind of trying to keep it in where there's

131
00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:59,360
Speaker 2: lots to dissect. But yeah, definitely we did this at school.

132
00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:01,360
Speaker 2: This was something that was at school. Of course, I

133
00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:05,040
Speaker 2: think it was before school started and during lunch, but

134
00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:09,160
Speaker 2: we were in the school building really yeah. Yeah, and

135
00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:10,240
Speaker 2: it was a public school.

136
00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:13,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I at our public school. On my high school,

137
00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:15,920
Speaker 1: we had I know I've told this story before because

138
00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:18,840
Speaker 1: it was so shocking to me as a kid, but

139
00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:21,720
Speaker 1: we had a lot of asket in its only posters

140
00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:25,480
Speaker 1: go up, and it was a girl in my class

141
00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:29,960
Speaker 1: who went around and put up like right next to them,

142
00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:36,160
Speaker 1: like condom information about condoms. Wow, it was pretty good.

143
00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:40,559
Speaker 2: That's impressive. I don't think anyone had that type of thought.

144
00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:45,000
Speaker 2: I wish, man, I wish I had that freedom of understanding.

145
00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:51,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean it was kind of like it

146
00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:54,240
Speaker 1: was great. I mean, it was fantastic, but it was

147
00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:56,960
Speaker 1: She did have a reputation of kind of being in

148
00:08:57,040 --> 00:08:58,480
Speaker 1: heavy cloaks, slutty.

149
00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:02,640
Speaker 2: Of course, of course, inevitably she's the enemy. So if

150
00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:05,079
Speaker 2: she's not pure, she's a slut exactly, which again we're

151
00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:09,000
Speaker 2: gonna dig into, all right, and here's another quote from

152
00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:12,400
Speaker 2: that paper they write. Several key authors have contended that

153
00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:16,520
Speaker 2: purity teachings characterize young men as inherently sexual beings without

154
00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:21,320
Speaker 2: control over their urges or responsibility for uncontrollable sexual actions,

155
00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:24,880
Speaker 2: and situate young women as both gatekeepers of sex without

156
00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:29,640
Speaker 2: any urges or sexuality of their own, while simultaneously shaming

157
00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:32,920
Speaker 2: young women as temptresses. This type of shame conditioning is

158
00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:36,719
Speaker 2: perpetuated through the pervasive use of metaphors, comparing women who

159
00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:41,400
Speaker 2: are sexually active to broken teacups, half eaten candy, sticky tape,

160
00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:45,679
Speaker 2: covered and the breed, trampled flowers, and paper hearts. Ripped

161
00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:48,840
Speaker 2: into pieces and yeah, did you do that? We talked

162
00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:52,000
Speaker 2: about this before too. Yeah, the whole passing of the candy.

163
00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:54,560
Speaker 1: We didn't do the candy. We did like the pouring

164
00:09:54,600 --> 00:10:02,199
Speaker 1: of the drink have like a chart and that somebody

165
00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:07,280
Speaker 1: I remember exactly who was like the one who was

166
00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:12,840
Speaker 1: contaminated and then we all drink from the water and

167
00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:16,800
Speaker 1: shared cups and because she was contaminated.

168
00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:24,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've never been through a hell house, which is

169
00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:28,880
Speaker 2: essentially a Christian haunted house where you're going through hell

170
00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:32,199
Speaker 2: or how you go to hell, right, but I think

171
00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:34,440
Speaker 2: part of that is like a woman who gets pregnant

172
00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:36,640
Speaker 2: and dies or someone who dies of a's because they

173
00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:40,000
Speaker 2: were sexually promiscuous. Like I remember thinking, what the that's

174
00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:43,000
Speaker 2: this is? What is this? And people who performed in

175
00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:46,360
Speaker 2: it were so excited. I was so confused.

176
00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:49,760
Speaker 1: There's one near where I grew up, and I didn't

177
00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:51,760
Speaker 1: go to it, but I still see billboards for it.

178
00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:55,240
Speaker 1: It's still going well. If I visit home around that time.

179
00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:58,160
Speaker 1: And I had a friend who went and she didn't

180
00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:01,160
Speaker 1: know it was like a Christian based on an house,

181
00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:03,599
Speaker 1: and she said she was essentially like trapped in a

182
00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:06,319
Speaker 1: room for an hour while the Red Bible verses at

183
00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:09,319
Speaker 1: her people excreaming.

184
00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:14,080
Speaker 2: Shock without knowing what you're getting into. I just got

185
00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:17,520
Speaker 2: tracked and I can't leave. This is the hell.

186
00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:20,760
Speaker 1: This is the hell the cults they're trying to pull

187
00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:26,320
Speaker 1: me into. Oh that's what I would think. Well, as

188
00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:28,800
Speaker 1: we talked about in the past episode, the damage left

189
00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:32,400
Speaker 1: behind with ideals such as these have been immense and

190
00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:36,880
Speaker 1: long lasting. As written in another article in the Kindman

191
00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:40,560
Speaker 1: dot Co blog quote, to say that purity culture was

192
00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:44,200
Speaker 1: and has been destructive would be an understatement. Purity culture

193
00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:48,360
Speaker 1: impacted and instilled concreteness around ginger roles, reinforcing the strength

194
00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:52,200
Speaker 1: and masculinity of men and the smallness and submissiveness of women.

195
00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:55,920
Speaker 1: Women hold immense responsibility in the ways in which they dress,

196
00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:58,920
Speaker 1: act and behave due to the beliefs that if men

197
00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:02,880
Speaker 1: are to us to i e. Think impure thoughts, it

198
00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:07,120
Speaker 1: is due to women's stress and or actions. The assumptions

199
00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:09,839
Speaker 1: that are in the foundation of purity culture are clear

200
00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:13,960
Speaker 1: as well. The gender binary is important, and heterosexuality is

201
00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:18,040
Speaker 1: the only normal form of partnership and desire. This leaves

202
00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:21,440
Speaker 1: out so many beautiful people. These hard and fast rules

203
00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:26,120
Speaker 1: around gender sexuality and pleasure create more questioning, doubt, and isolation.

204
00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:30,360
Speaker 1: Anytime there is rigidity with a fear based reinforcement, there

205
00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:34,640
Speaker 1: will be the aftermath of anxiety, shame, and sadness. And

206
00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:37,160
Speaker 1: that is the basis of a majority of morality based

207
00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:41,959
Speaker 1: control slash fear, such as fear of disappointing, fear of failure,

208
00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:45,800
Speaker 1: fear of burning. For eternity and for women, not only

209
00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:47,960
Speaker 1: do we answer to a deity, but we have to

210
00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:51,440
Speaker 1: answer to the patriarchy, even if we are the ones

211
00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:52,560
Speaker 1: being victimized.

212
00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:55,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we're not going to talk about it too much,

213
00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:57,000
Speaker 2: but I do want to point out that they do

214
00:12:57,080 --> 00:13:01,160
Speaker 2: speak specifically about queerness and people in the queer community

215
00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:06,199
Speaker 2: and how it pretty much erases it from the conversation,

216
00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:09,840
Speaker 2: and that is on purpose. When we're talking about rature

217
00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:13,720
Speaker 2: of a specific community like the queer community, it is

218
00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:18,000
Speaker 2: a violent removal. I think it's important that we note this,

219
00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:21,360
Speaker 2: especially when we're talking about purity culture. Sex is bad enough,

220
00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:24,880
Speaker 2: queerness should not exist, and we see that today and

221
00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:27,760
Speaker 2: again we're talking about how this is leading to white supremacies.

222
00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:30,680
Speaker 2: We are going to talk more about that in our

223
00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:35,440
Speaker 2: conversation about religious trauma and the queer community. Don't worry y'all,

224
00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:39,440
Speaker 2: We're not forgetting this. And from the research article we

225
00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:43,400
Speaker 2: mentioned earlier, they write, purity doctrine teaches that reward for

226
00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:46,120
Speaker 2: sexual abstinence is given in the form of a highly

227
00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:50,679
Speaker 2: satisfying sex life and happy heterosexual marriage. As adolescents are

228
00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:54,280
Speaker 2: taught to repress their sexual desires until their wedding night,

229
00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:58,400
Speaker 2: unrealistic expectations of sex and pleasure are encouraged, along with

230
00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:01,599
Speaker 2: the narrative that wives would rein sexually available to the

231
00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:05,680
Speaker 2: needs of the husband at all times. The passing or

232
00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:07,920
Speaker 2: trading of the body of a woman from a father

233
00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:10,800
Speaker 2: to husband through the wedding ceremony and the trading of

234
00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:14,960
Speaker 2: a purity ring for wedding ring perpetuates the commodification of

235
00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:18,920
Speaker 2: the female body as sexual property, while the sexual expression,

236
00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:22,800
Speaker 2: needs and desires of the women are negated. As girls

237
00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:25,640
Speaker 2: are conditioned to believe that the responsibility of purity before

238
00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:29,560
Speaker 2: marriage and a successful sex life after marriage rests with them,

239
00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:33,880
Speaker 2: the emotional fallout associated with any perceived failure becomes their

240
00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:37,440
Speaker 2: burden to carry. As well. Fear of failure is furthered

241
00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:40,280
Speaker 2: as young women are taught that sex before marriage will

242
00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:44,320
Speaker 2: affect their ability to give and receive love, harm their

243
00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:48,560
Speaker 2: future marriages, and according to the AOUM or the Abstinence Program,

244
00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:55,880
Speaker 2: true love waits ultimately destroy lives. I cannot, honestly, of

245
00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:59,560
Speaker 2: all the things I grew up with in Christian culture,

246
00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:06,360
Speaker 2: purity was the biggest focus outside of saving souls for women,

247
00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:11,160
Speaker 2: Like I remember I've told the story previously, just about

248
00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:13,360
Speaker 2: the fact that I was like, I cannot meet these

249
00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:19,800
Speaker 2: standards and this constant feeling of failure, this can't be okay,

250
00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:24,360
Speaker 2: And also the fact that because I was abused as

251
00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:27,640
Speaker 2: a kid, I am now thought as impure. What does

252
00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:30,760
Speaker 2: this mean for me as a woman in this culture?

253
00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:36,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, It's one of those things when I look back,

254
00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:39,600
Speaker 1: is kind of bizarre, how you know, you're kind of

255
00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:42,680
Speaker 1: a young, young kid and we're talking about like I

256
00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:47,440
Speaker 1: can't she's going to hell because she already had sex,

257
00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:51,680
Speaker 1: and like those kind of those things we put on

258
00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:56,600
Speaker 1: young people right around this and definitely with the responsibility

259
00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:59,600
Speaker 1: for women, and I think it is setting women up

260
00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:03,800
Speaker 1: to fail because all of the blame is coming our way,

261
00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:10,400
Speaker 1: and that like you will never feel like you've succeeded.

262
00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:13,080
Speaker 1: You will always write that I mean, like that successful

263
00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:15,920
Speaker 1: sex life. To me, it sounds like you could just

264
00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:18,040
Speaker 1: kind of fake it till you make it as long

265
00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:20,360
Speaker 1: as the man is happy, and you could pretend right

266
00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:23,160
Speaker 1: that you are as well.

267
00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:25,440
Speaker 2: I mean, that's that level that we were not talking

268
00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:30,440
Speaker 2: about here. But when men still assume again that women

269
00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:33,680
Speaker 2: cannot find pleasure and sex, they're not supposed to, so

270
00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:37,120
Speaker 2: their opinions don't matter. As well as the fact that

271
00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:41,000
Speaker 2: a lot of people firmly believe rape does not exist

272
00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:43,560
Speaker 2: in marriage, and a lot of countries today still do

273
00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:46,960
Speaker 2: not acknowledge that as a violation, So this is I

274
00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:52,480
Speaker 2: think some states still haven't acknowledged that as well, because again,

275
00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:56,120
Speaker 2: this whole idea of the sexual ownership is not of women,

276
00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:58,840
Speaker 2: it is of men, so therefore they have control of

277
00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:00,320
Speaker 2: that as long as they're in marriage.

278
00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:13,120
Speaker 3: Right.

279
00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:18,440
Speaker 1: And as we talked about in our virginity episode, many

280
00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:22,240
Speaker 1: of the scare tactics used to purity culture all lean

281
00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:25,680
Speaker 1: towards the idea that it is either good or bad,

282
00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:29,280
Speaker 1: heaven or hell, and typically more of a failure for women.

283
00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:32,639
Speaker 1: In an article written by Elizabeth Ross, who wrote her

284
00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:36,520
Speaker 1: Masters of Religion thesis on purity culture, she talks about

285
00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:40,639
Speaker 1: the black and white thinking within purity culture and gives

286
00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:45,719
Speaker 1: three specific examples, and here are some quotes. Is it

287
00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:50,000
Speaker 1: safe or dangerous? Quote? I can only explore my sexuality

288
00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:52,920
Speaker 1: in marriage, otherwise I'll be ruined forever. If I have

289
00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:56,280
Speaker 1: sex before marriage, I won't go to heaven. If I'm

290
00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:59,280
Speaker 1: a survivor of sexual assault before marriage, I'll never be

291
00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:03,600
Speaker 1: lovable again. Purity culture demonizes all forms of intimacy and

292
00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:07,080
Speaker 1: sexual activity that takes place before marriage. These beliefs can

293
00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:12,000
Speaker 1: be incredibly frightening, especially when inappropriately linked to personhood or salvation.

294
00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:16,280
Speaker 1: Experiences of sexual assault and abuse may intensify these fears.

295
00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:20,680
Speaker 1: This approach may cause significant anxiety and difficulty expressing one's

296
00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:24,560
Speaker 1: physical or emotional needs for both single and married folks.

297
00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:28,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, and again this is all specifically from Ross's writings,

298
00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:32,800
Speaker 2: the explanations, the kind of thoughts that go in with this,

299
00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:36,080
Speaker 2: so this is straight from her blog. It says, the

300
00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:38,200
Speaker 2: question is is it good or bad? Black and white?

301
00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:40,359
Speaker 2: Good or bad? And here are some of the thoughts

302
00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:42,679
Speaker 2: you might have If you wait, sex will always be

303
00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:45,480
Speaker 2: good in marriage. If I don't get married, my sexuality

304
00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:48,400
Speaker 2: goes to waste. If I'm a survivor of sexual assault

305
00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:51,360
Speaker 2: before marriage, I'll never be lovable again again. That same

306
00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:54,800
Speaker 2: kind of conversation. So quote. While marriage is not a

307
00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:58,960
Speaker 2: reality for everyone, purity culture assumes that heterosexual marriage and

308
00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:02,960
Speaker 2: penetrative create a sex is the goal for everyone. Other

309
00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:06,439
Speaker 2: sexual activities in marriage, such as masturbation, oral sex, and

310
00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:11,040
Speaker 2: outer course, are often debated or given less serious consideration. Singles,

311
00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:14,040
Speaker 2: couples struggling with infertility or intimacy, and those who do

312
00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:16,720
Speaker 2: not wish to have children may feel excluded and or

313
00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:20,240
Speaker 2: feel like they failed once again are being punished. Sex

314
00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:23,359
Speaker 2: is a good gift from God, but there's no guarantee

315
00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:26,840
Speaker 2: it will happen perfectly every time. This doesn't make anyone

316
00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:30,560
Speaker 2: a bad spouse. It simply emphasizes the human element of sex.

317
00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:34,919
Speaker 2: A narrowly defined understanding of sex limits playful, honest, and

318
00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:39,760
Speaker 2: consensual exploration of pleasure, independent from orgasm or procreation. It

319
00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:43,600
Speaker 2: may also perpetuate harmful gender stereotypes.

320
00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:51,200
Speaker 1: Yes, and then another quote, protected or promiscuous. She wasn't

321
00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:53,560
Speaker 1: wearing a sweater, she was asking for it. If I

322
00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:56,200
Speaker 1: wear shorts, I'll always be labeled to slut. I was

323
00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:58,600
Speaker 1: wearing a tank top, it was all my fault. The

324
00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:02,520
Speaker 1: trouble is modesty can be wildly subjective. Standards for modest

325
00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:05,760
Speaker 1: dress vary from community to community. This binary sets to

326
00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:08,640
Speaker 1: stage for victim blaming, where sexual abuse victims are held

327
00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:12,040
Speaker 1: responsible for their own mistreatment. This also does not allow

328
00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:15,920
Speaker 1: men the space to take responsibility for their own sexualities.

329
00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:19,800
Speaker 2: And yeah, we're having a conversation about modesty all the time.

330
00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:21,679
Speaker 2: It may not come out as modesty, but when we

331
00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:25,880
Speaker 2: look at things like state houses regulating women not being

332
00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:28,520
Speaker 2: able to wear sleeveless clothes or not being able to

333
00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:32,240
Speaker 2: wear pants, literally, that is a conversation of what they

334
00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:36,040
Speaker 2: esteem as modesty. Though they may say it's more of

335
00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:40,120
Speaker 2: a professionalism, but we know that's undercover words and that's

336
00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:41,880
Speaker 2: something that we wanted to look into as well. So

337
00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:45,119
Speaker 2: we wanted to take this minute to talk about modesty

338
00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:50,560
Speaker 2: as it relates to religious trauma and purity culture. And

339
00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:54,919
Speaker 2: when we were looking this up, all I put was

340
00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:59,040
Speaker 2: modesty and religious trauma or modesty and women. And all

341
00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:01,560
Speaker 2: of the articles work Christian articles teaching women how to

342
00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:03,439
Speaker 2: be modest and what it meant to be modest, like,

343
00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:05,720
Speaker 2: it was all in favor of modesty. And trying to

344
00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:07,479
Speaker 2: teach women this, and I was like, oh my god,

345
00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:09,440
Speaker 2: oh my god, this is all I'm getting. I'm gonna

346
00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:13,520
Speaker 2: have to reverd this completely. But in that when we

347
00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:16,600
Speaker 2: talk about modesty, we also have to talk about rape culture.

348
00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:18,360
Speaker 2: And we're going to get into this as we talk

349
00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:22,040
Speaker 2: about now and as Ross Elizabeth Ross, which just quoted,

350
00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:25,880
Speaker 2: states she wasn't wearing a sweater, she was asking for it.

351
00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:29,240
Speaker 2: And the measure of violence to modesty that justifies victim

352
00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:32,119
Speaker 2: blaming and even the violent act of assault on women

353
00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:34,639
Speaker 2: is constant, and that's why this is so important to

354
00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:37,880
Speaker 2: have a conversation on. In an article written by Faith Butcherman,

355
00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:40,679
Speaker 2: I'm so sorry if I said that wrong. Title that

356
00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:43,480
Speaker 2: roses in revolution, and yes this is actually written in

357
00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:47,040
Speaker 2: twenty thirteen, so it is dated but still relevant. She

358
00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:50,560
Speaker 2: talks about modesty and purity culture, and she writes a

359
00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:54,240
Speaker 2: special niche of purity culture is deeply concerned with modesty.

360
00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:58,359
Speaker 2: The idea is a really self respecting woman will dress

361
00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:00,480
Speaker 2: herself in a way that her body will not be

362
00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:04,760
Speaker 2: the focus at all. Sermon's conferences, books, even t shirts

363
00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:08,240
Speaker 2: all advocate the notion that modesty is a prime component

364
00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:13,560
Speaker 2: of sexual purity and therefore paradoxically desirability to the proper

365
00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:18,040
Speaker 2: sort of Christian judglemen. Of course, and there are endless

366
00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:22,800
Speaker 2: debates on what constitutes modesty. The general consensus is, however,

367
00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:26,080
Speaker 2: a woman's clothing must not be too revealing of either

368
00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:30,480
Speaker 2: flesh or figure, too scanty or too tight. Quibbling about

369
00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:34,040
Speaker 2: inches and guidelines take up an amazing amount of time

370
00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:38,160
Speaker 2: and energy among modesty advocates, but the idea is the same.

371
00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:42,720
Speaker 2: Good girls are modest and yet and also it doesn't

372
00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:47,080
Speaker 2: stop the fat phobia within the Christian community. Yeah, you

373
00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:48,560
Speaker 2: would think that would be one of the reasons, but

374
00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:49,119
Speaker 2: it's really not.

375
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:53,159
Speaker 1: No, no, When we've talked about that before. There is

376
00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:57,440
Speaker 1: a lot of reality wrapped around fat phobia in Christianity.

377
00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:04,200
Speaker 1: There's a long history of it. It feels like when

378
00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:05,920
Speaker 1: I think about this, a lot of it does feel

379
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:13,720
Speaker 1: like essentially, you as a woman have to you have

380
00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:19,520
Speaker 1: to quote save yourself for marriage for a man, but

381
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:24,080
Speaker 1: you still have to be desirable to that man, like

382
00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:27,280
Speaker 1: your body is still for him to consume and he

383
00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:28,360
Speaker 1: needs to like it.

384
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:29,520
Speaker 3: Right.

385
00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:32,400
Speaker 2: Oh, I think I've talked about it before. We talked

386
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,679
Speaker 2: about the author a Christian author named Elizabeth Elliott, who

387
00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:39,080
Speaker 2: disappointed a lot of the un Christian women because they

388
00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:41,240
Speaker 2: looked up to her for her book Passion and Purity.

389
00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:44,919
Speaker 2: Yes I read it, don't judge me. But she apparently

390
00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:48,640
Speaker 2: during the conference told the women in the audience if

391
00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:51,359
Speaker 2: you aren't dressing right for your man, then you're sinning.

392
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:54,360
Speaker 2: If you gain weight, then you are sinning. If you're

393
00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:57,639
Speaker 2: not being pretty every morning, then you're sinning against God

394
00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:01,399
Speaker 2: and man. It was such like what that it brought

395
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:05,440
Speaker 2: divisiveness in the community in itself, and it really crushed

396
00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 2: a lot of people's spirits, which is kind of that

397
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:09,000
Speaker 2: whole like, oh, God, I believed in something and this

398
00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:13,080
Speaker 2: something is killing me or really like hurting me. And

399
00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:16,600
Speaker 2: having that realization it was interesting, but like things like

400
00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:21,040
Speaker 2: that in conversation when you're being told emphatically if your

401
00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:25,040
Speaker 2: physical presence is not perfect, you are asin.

402
00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:28,879
Speaker 1: Right right, and kind of that like the power and

403
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:34,280
Speaker 1: balance of oh, if he left you is because you

404
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:36,520
Speaker 1: you weren't dressing correctly.

405
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:38,480
Speaker 2: Right, or you had a baby and gained too much weight.

406
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:39,199
Speaker 2: Why would you do that?

407
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:39,600
Speaker 3: Right?

408
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:42,760
Speaker 2: I would yell at someone.

409
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:48,200
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, and both. Shomen continues explaining Some of the

410
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:51,600
Speaker 1: mindset behind the idea of modesty and modesty is for

411
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:55,400
Speaker 1: everyone's protection. Men are less tinted sexually when the women

412
00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:58,359
Speaker 1: around them cover up modest women are less likely to

413
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:01,240
Speaker 1: be taken advantage of, whether just by ogling on the street,

414
00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:04,439
Speaker 1: by men pressuring them to have sex, or by rape.

415
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:07,679
Speaker 1: So the story goes, anyway, do you feel a little judged,

416
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:10,000
Speaker 1: a little meddled with when a stranger tells you how

417
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:14,040
Speaker 1: to dress? Don't they really have your best interest at heart.

418
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:17,960
Speaker 1: They want you to respect yourself by doing your best

419
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:21,520
Speaker 1: to control other people's reaction to your body, and they

420
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:24,639
Speaker 1: can't be held responsible for what happens when you don't

421
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:26,000
Speaker 1: dress modestly enough.

422
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:29,360
Speaker 2: Yeah. Recently, there was a youth pastor did you see

423
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:33,000
Speaker 2: this that went viral on TikTok because he was berating

424
00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:35,679
Speaker 2: these this young group of women for wearing bikinis and

425
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:38,560
Speaker 2: we're not talking like really scantily, like they were just

426
00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 2: bikinis on a public beach and telling them they needed

427
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,240
Speaker 2: like yelling at them, telling them they're sinning and they

428
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:47,560
Speaker 2: need to get their to lives together and all these things,

429
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:52,800
Speaker 2: and everybody's like, what is happening? And then he thought

430
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:56,560
Speaker 2: it was smart and came and did a response to it.

431
00:25:57,280 --> 00:25:59,480
Speaker 2: I believe he was a youth pastor, and he's very

432
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:02,320
Speaker 2: calm and a chair, talking biblical stuff and being like,

433
00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:04,399
Speaker 2: you know, I just had I just wanted to protect

434
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:06,840
Speaker 2: these young women. And I'm like, yeah, why are you

435
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:10,320
Speaker 2: sexualizing and looking at these young women? Why aren't you

436
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:13,520
Speaker 2: walking away? Because in the Bible it says that if

437
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:15,800
Speaker 2: your eyes are last thing, you need to pluck them

438
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:19,879
Speaker 2: out because it caused you to sin. Broh just saying,

439
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:23,200
Speaker 2: which is I think what everybody comes back with, like doe,

440
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 2: the sin happens first in you, like essentially, But he

441
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:29,320
Speaker 2: does not acknowledge that he blames the women and telling

442
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:32,679
Speaker 2: these women young girls so that this is something they

443
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:35,639
Speaker 2: shouldn't be doing, which is odd. Again, even if they

444
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:38,440
Speaker 2: were dressing for other people, it wasn't for him.

445
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:41,240
Speaker 1: Right, And that's something we'd come into. We encounter so

446
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:44,320
Speaker 1: many times with this stuff. Is it's like, but you're

447
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 1: sexualizing them, Like.

448
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, do you not understand what's happening. They may feel

449
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:52,240
Speaker 2: great about themselves and they may be feeling sexy, they're

450
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 2: not trying to put themselves on top of you as

451
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 2: in fact, they're minding their business, laying down and hanging

452
00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:01,639
Speaker 2: out with each other. M So go talk to your

453
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,920
Speaker 2: wife about why you have built these feelings becausee he

454
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:06,879
Speaker 2: did have his wife with them, I believe. Oh and

455
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:10,960
Speaker 2: Bochamen breaks down the problems with these things, saying, here's

456
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:14,200
Speaker 2: the first ugly truth. As soon as a woman falls

457
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:17,760
Speaker 2: outside the standard of what is perceived as modest, those

458
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:22,919
Speaker 2: advocating modesty culture immediately join rape culture. They shrug and say,

459
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:26,679
Speaker 2: whatever happens is on her, she's asking for it, and

460
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:30,239
Speaker 2: they're not actually concerned about all women, only women who

461
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:33,800
Speaker 2: are willing to conform to their standards of modesty. It

462
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 2: gets worse when a woman is a victim of sexual violence.

463
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 2: It matters much less to modesty culture than to current

464
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:45,120
Speaker 2: American rape culture how she addresses or acts. Modesty culture

465
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:48,920
Speaker 2: will assume much more likely that it is somehow her fault,

466
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 2: probably because their standards of how good girls dress and

467
00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 2: behave are so much higher.

468
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:59,399
Speaker 1: Right and Pushiman goes on second, Both cultures have a

469
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:02,080
Speaker 1: very problem stance on men. It's not as bad as

470
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 1: their view of women, but it's another of the shocking

471
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:07,639
Speaker 1: similarities between the two. Why does modesty culture try to

472
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,919
Speaker 1: get all women to cover up because men, according to

473
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 1: modesty culture, cannot help themselves since actually sincere Christians want

474
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:18,119
Speaker 1: their men to be sexually pure as well as their women,

475
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:20,640
Speaker 1: or at least they say they do. But of course

476
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 1: the onus for keeping men pure is put on the women.

477
00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:28,040
Speaker 1: All temptation must be removed, for even seeing a flash

478
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:29,879
Speaker 1: of skin he ought not to have seen will make

479
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:32,679
Speaker 1: a man think all sorts of lusty and rapey thoughts.

480
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:35,639
Speaker 1: That's the gist of it. I've read modesty books that

481
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 1: go into great detail on how men's chemistry works, essentially

482
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:41,120
Speaker 1: saying that if he catches just a glimpse of a

483
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 1: woman's body, he will be sexually turned on in an instant,

484
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 1: and after that he is incapable of controlling his mental

485
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 1: slash physical reaction, and it is only a woman's body

486
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:55,040
Speaker 1: that will create this reaction. Modesty culture is heteronormative to

487
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:58,480
Speaker 1: the point of denying that real homosexual attraction even exist.

488
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 1: So both rape culture and modesty culture envisioned men as

489
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:06,280
Speaker 1: jeweling hound dogs with everlasting erections. As a side note,

490
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:08,720
Speaker 1: modesty culture is also made up of people who think

491
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 1: men ought to be the ones running the world. And

492
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 1: that the male gender holds all spiritual authority, and it

493
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 1: is important to recognize how something that is disguised as

494
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 1: morality is often weaponized to insert dominance, control, and supremacy.

495
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:27,600
Speaker 1: I find it, for instance, interesting, how this really is

496
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 1: like allowing for men to rape women in it being

497
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:36,280
Speaker 1: their faults and they can still be good Christian men

498
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 1: because she was wearing a tank top.

499
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:42,400
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, right right, I mean, there's definitely that

500
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 2: conversation of who is being judged the most people way

501
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 2: too short of shorts. And again, when I was a

502
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,600
Speaker 2: part of that Christian world, I definitely preached this, I

503
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:55,200
Speaker 2: definitely bought into this, which is again why I have

504
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:58,760
Speaker 2: so many many body issues in itself. And again a

505
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 2: part of that was able to hide my body issues

506
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 2: by pretending it was modesty. I mean again, self esteem,

507
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:09,080
Speaker 2: all of that. But to me, there's so much in

508
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 2: this conversation that we need to take take a moment

509
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 2: to look at and how the overlapping good intentions of

510
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 2: discussing modesty has overlapped with rape culture and how often

511
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:25,480
Speaker 2: times they'd excuse us rape. And again when we look

512
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 2: at old Testament stuff from the Bible, if a woman

513
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 2: was raped, it was her fault. And if she was

514
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,480
Speaker 2: not being married, if she's not married to the rapist

515
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 2: and she had to beg for them to marry, then

516
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:38,480
Speaker 2: she was outcast forever. Like that's that level again. And

517
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 2: for some reason, even though that seems so extreme, people

518
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 2: still oftentimes will throw away had heavy quotes women specifically

519
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 2: who have gone through trauma like that when it comes

520
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 2: to religious or purity cultures in general. So that's something

521
00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:01,320
Speaker 2: to remember. And for me, this was the crux of

522
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 2: my service to religion, the idea of being pure and

523
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 2: remaining modest and supporting men to gain more power like

524
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:12,720
Speaker 2: I was taught, I need to be behind the man

525
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:18,920
Speaker 2: literally to make him the better man. And this whole

526
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,240
Speaker 2: like the idea that that phrase the men are the

527
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 2: heads and the women are the next, all these things

528
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:27,600
Speaker 2: that supports the men. I'm like, God, that is so,

529
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:30,479
Speaker 2: why why do we think that that's such a great

530
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:34,040
Speaker 2: like saying I don't want that, don't knit that on

531
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 2: a pillow for me? What the hell? Oh no, my gift.

532
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:55,520
Speaker 2: I would thank you, thank you for that. But yeah,

533
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:58,240
Speaker 2: and with the stigma of purity and modesty when it

534
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:01,120
Speaker 2: comes to sex and sexuality as we talked about earlier.

535
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 2: There is a level of impact that can linger causing

536
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:06,960
Speaker 2: damage throughout your entire life, and here's some examples from

537
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:10,160
Speaker 2: that same Kidman dot co blog. It could include feeling

538
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 2: shame about your body and about having sex, fear of

539
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 2: what sex before marriage might do to you, discomfort and

540
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 2: receiving pleasure, difficulty naming needs and wants during sex, separation

541
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:25,360
Speaker 2: and distance from yourself and body sometimes called dissociation, uncertainty

542
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 2: around how to bring this up to other people in

543
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 2: your life, difficulty trusting yourself and others, anxiety around a

544
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:34,480
Speaker 2: lack of agency that you have in your life. And yeah,

545
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 2: all of those fit me. All of those fit me,

546
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 2: like I maybe not the dissociation, well, you know, maybe

547
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 2: the association actually none of the thing about it, like

548
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:47,160
Speaker 2: my initial thoughts of sex. Of course, everything I do

549
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 2: this sounds ridiculous. I have to think about it for

550
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:53,800
Speaker 2: a long time before I decided to do it. So

551
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:57,000
Speaker 2: I had made up my mind that purity and this

552
00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:00,240
Speaker 2: chastity that I thought was so great was not about

553
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 2: religion and purity and being honest heavenly way, It was

554
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:08,360
Speaker 2: about fear. And it was perfectly aligned with my fear

555
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:12,840
Speaker 2: and trauma, previous trauma, previous sexual abuse. So therefore it

556
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 2: was perfectly fitting because at least I could say it's

557
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:16,720
Speaker 2: for Jesus.

558
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:23,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, I mean I do think all of

559
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 1: these things. You've listed a lot of a lot of

560
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 1: listeners and myself I can relate to. But it's it's

561
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:34,520
Speaker 1: so isolating, and it's so you can't ask people about it,

562
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 1: you can't talk about it, and it's basically telling you

563
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 1: to be submissive to the man and his wants take precedence.

564
00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 1: So even if maybe you maybe you're not sure about

565
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 1: like do you want to have sex or not, if

566
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:52,160
Speaker 1: he pressures you, though, then it's it's like almost telling you, well,

567
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:56,200
Speaker 1: if my religion is saying, he's the man, and if

568
00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 1: that's what he wants, then that's what he gets.

569
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:02,160
Speaker 2: Right, exactly exactly what he wants and what he gives,

570
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 2: no matter how comfortable and uncomfortable you are. And if

571
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 2: you're the ones saying no, then you are sinning against man.

572
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 2: To your authority.

573
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:17,640
Speaker 1: Once again, yep, but these aren't the only types of

574
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 1: trauma reactions. More often than not, many of those who

575
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 1: have suffered trauma due to the purity cultures suffer from

576
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:28,479
Speaker 1: sexual dysfunction and fears, the anxiety brought on by shame

577
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:30,840
Speaker 1: and guilt. After years of being told that your worth

578
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:34,839
Speaker 1: is your body, slash your purity, the undoing and unraveling

579
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:38,240
Speaker 1: of those ties can become a process and even dangerous

580
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:41,720
Speaker 1: to your mental health. In a Vice article talking about

581
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:45,160
Speaker 1: Linda kay Klein's book Pure Inside the movement that shamed

582
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:47,239
Speaker 1: generation of young women and how I Brook Free, which

583
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:52,680
Speaker 1: we mentioned earlier, they discuss the severe impacts of the

584
00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 1: purity culture and physical and mental side effects. Here's a

585
00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:59,360
Speaker 1: quote from that Vice article. It's teenage girls who end

586
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:02,040
Speaker 1: up most effects did clin fines because while boys are

587
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:04,680
Speaker 1: taught that their minds are a gateway to sin, women

588
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:07,279
Speaker 1: are taught that their bodies are. After years of being

589
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:09,680
Speaker 1: told that they're responsible for not only their own purity,

590
00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 1: but the purity of the men and boys around them,

591
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:15,839
Speaker 1: and of associating sexual desire with depravity and shame, clin

592
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:19,840
Speaker 1: rights those feelings often haunt women's relationships with their bodies

593
00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:23,600
Speaker 1: for a lifetime. And she goes on to explain her

594
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:26,920
Speaker 1: own experiences in trauma after realizing she couldn't be the

595
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 1: woman the church wanted her to be. It was at

596
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 1: that point when she began considering having sex that the

597
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 1: symptoms started. It began when I took the possibility of

598
00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:37,840
Speaker 1: having sex and put it on the table. Client says,

599
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 1: from that point on, sometimes it was my boyfriend and

600
00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:42,480
Speaker 1: I being sexual that would make me have these breakdowns

601
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:45,240
Speaker 1: where I was in tears, scratching myself into light bled

602
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:47,840
Speaker 1: and ended up on the corner of the bed crying.

603
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:52,160
Speaker 2: Right. And I think it's really important. We definitely want

604
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:55,759
Speaker 2: to look at that a little deeper, having that conversation

605
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:59,920
Speaker 2: that this is traumatic when we talk about CPDSD and PTSD,

606
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:05,239
Speaker 2: this is an actual reaction that comes out physically. For me.

607
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 2: I didn't have that initial reaction when I first had sex.

608
00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:10,719
Speaker 2: What I wanted to do is get it over with,

609
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:13,600
Speaker 2: not tell anybody, and never talk to that guy again.

610
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:16,719
Speaker 2: But there was definitely a lot of shame factor to

611
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:21,319
Speaker 2: this because so many reasons, so many reasons, and part

612
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 2: of that is my own past trauma. Part of that

613
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 2: is trauma with religion, and part of that is like

614
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:29,800
Speaker 2: trying to say that I'm an adult. So many bad things,

615
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:32,880
Speaker 2: but this emphasis on sex, which you and I have

616
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:36,640
Speaker 2: talked about before, has really damaged in every way, like

617
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:40,840
Speaker 2: to the point that we hope consent is a conversation

618
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:44,080
Speaker 2: that we can have because doing that what I did.

619
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:48,640
Speaker 4: Was also an awful way to start off right, right,

620
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:51,920
Speaker 4: And we have talked about that before, like if you

621
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:56,040
Speaker 4: don't feel comfortable saying no, is there any how what

622
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:56,920
Speaker 4: is true consent?

623
00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 1: I think that I too. I have a journal entry

624
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 1: where I felt bad even before the sex part, if

625
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 1: people were attracted to me, And I wrote a whole

626
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:12,759
Speaker 1: journal entry about how I felt like a monster and

627
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:16,080
Speaker 1: my body was monstrous and why did it this keep happening?

628
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 1: And it should be like a nice thing, It should

629
00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:21,080
Speaker 1: be like a somebody's attracted to me, but instead I

630
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:24,920
Speaker 1: turned it inward and felt horrible about myself.

631
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:28,960
Speaker 2: Right, And again, this is something that we have learned

632
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:33,640
Speaker 2: or we've been conditioned to do. And obviously Klein wasn't alone,

633
00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:35,719
Speaker 2: and she started gathering a lot of data, which, by

634
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:37,520
Speaker 2: the way, this is around the same time frame that

635
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 2: I was doing this, Like her time frame is my

636
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:45,120
Speaker 2: time frame, and I feel really old this research, but

637
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:49,000
Speaker 2: that's okay, I'm fine, I'm fine. But she started gathering

638
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:51,080
Speaker 2: data in two thousand and six, and she wrote in

639
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:55,000
Speaker 2: her book based on our nightmares, panic attacks, and paranoia.

640
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:57,480
Speaker 2: One might think that my childhood friends and I had

641
00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:00,520
Speaker 2: been to war, and in fact we had. We went

642
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:03,719
Speaker 2: to war with ourselves, our own bodies, and our own

643
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:07,640
Speaker 2: sexual natures, all under the strict commandment of that church.

644
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:09,760
Speaker 2: And that's exactly kind of that level. What I'm talking

645
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:13,320
Speaker 2: about is I wanted to get it over with so quickly,

646
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:15,600
Speaker 2: as if it was a war, as if I was

647
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:17,920
Speaker 2: going to battle, and get it out and get it

648
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:23,719
Speaker 2: done because I hated that beginning, because I wanted to

649
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:27,440
Speaker 2: break free so badly from that religious trauma and that

650
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:30,680
Speaker 2: standard that I did it that way and it was

651
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:34,960
Speaker 2: not healthy. And then yeah, going on, her research shows

652
00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:38,360
Speaker 2: without a doubt that traumatic effect of this type of culture.

653
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 2: Here's another quote from that article. The resulting book is

654
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:45,440
Speaker 2: an eye opening blend of memoir, journalism, and cultural commentary

655
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:49,160
Speaker 2: that masterfully illustrates how religion, shame, and trauma can inform

656
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:52,480
Speaker 2: one another. Citing medical studies, as she lays out that

657
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:56,080
Speaker 2: evangelical adolescents are the least likely to quote expect sex

658
00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:58,920
Speaker 2: to be pleasurable and among the most likely to expect

659
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:02,040
Speaker 2: that having sex will make them feel guilty and in

660
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:05,960
Speaker 2: comparison to boys, Klein observes girls are ninety two percent

661
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:10,480
Speaker 2: more likely to feel shame, especially girls who are highly religious.

662
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:13,920
Speaker 2: For many women, like Cline, that shame can manifest in

663
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:15,320
Speaker 2: physical symptoms.

664
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:18,799
Speaker 1: Right In another blog, author Jenna Dubois writes in her

665
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:23,320
Speaker 1: article titled religious trauma plus painful Sex, the human body

666
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:25,840
Speaker 1: has an incredible memory. Even if someone doesn't have a

667
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:28,759
Speaker 1: history of physical or sexual trauma, the trauma of hearing

668
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:31,600
Speaker 1: their body is terrible and not for their own pleasure,

669
00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:35,400
Speaker 1: their whole life begins to manifest in some pretty profound ways.

670
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:39,480
Speaker 1: Sex is a very somatic experience, especially for women. Penetrative

671
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:42,480
Speaker 1: sex is more pleasurable and comfortable when the body is relaxed,

672
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:45,359
Speaker 1: which is extremely hard to do if your sexuality has

673
00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 1: been shamed since childhood. Combine that with a lack of

674
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:52,840
Speaker 1: sex education in religious communities i e. Condoms, lube, glatorial simulation,

675
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:57,680
Speaker 1: and penetrative sex can quickly become less than desirable. And

676
00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:01,480
Speaker 1: she goes on to further explain sex is also very mental,

677
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:04,600
Speaker 1: and there are two very significant ways that religion hurts people,

678
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:08,040
Speaker 1: specifically women, by not teaching them their bodies are theirs

679
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:11,600
Speaker 1: and for their pleasure, and here are some direct quotes

680
00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:15,120
Speaker 1: from that if you are taught something is bad or

681
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:18,160
Speaker 1: wrong your entire life, but expected of you during marriage

682
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:21,799
Speaker 1: and not for your pleasure, only procreation. While let's just

683
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:24,520
Speaker 1: say that's not the sexiest setup for a pleasant, relaxing

684
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:29,320
Speaker 1: sexual experience. For women, sex is expected. During my experience

685
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:32,160
Speaker 1: in Christian culture, I experienced many of my friends getting

686
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:35,520
Speaker 1: married and getting married very young. The conversations for men

687
00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:39,000
Speaker 1: around sex slash marriage were generally filled with excitement. For women,

688
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:42,640
Speaker 1: it was more complex. The wedding night in Christian culture

689
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:47,600
Speaker 1: is massive because it automatically insinuates sex, and usually for

690
00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:50,400
Speaker 1: a lot of Christian couples, this is sex for the

691
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:53,359
Speaker 1: first time, so there's a lot of pressure, usually and

692
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:57,799
Speaker 1: mostly on the women. I believe that this expectation, even

693
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:01,400
Speaker 1: if it's unspoken between partners, it makes sex more difficult

694
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:03,920
Speaker 1: for women. It also feeds into the beliefs that their

695
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:07,400
Speaker 1: body is never for themselves, but for everyone else as

696
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:12,000
Speaker 1: a woman, and it's only good when it's of service. Obviously,

697
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:14,160
Speaker 1: this is far from the truth.

698
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:17,719
Speaker 2: Right and again, because I grew up in the world,

699
00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:20,560
Speaker 2: I had a lot of friends getting married, if not

700
00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:24,719
Speaker 2: during college immediately after college because they did not want

701
00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:26,680
Speaker 2: to wait for sex, as in fact, I have family

702
00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:29,239
Speaker 2: members who did that because they just didn't want to wait.

703
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:32,480
Speaker 2: That was the whole reason that they got married, thinking

704
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:35,520
Speaker 2: that their sexual lust for each other was obviously a

705
00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:38,040
Speaker 2: sign and that they were supposed to be together again,

706
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 2: the courtship thing. There's more to that, Like, don't think

707
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:43,120
Speaker 2: that that's the only reason, but it was a rush

708
00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:47,120
Speaker 2: to get married. They didn't want to wait type of conversation,

709
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:50,960
Speaker 2: and with that they there was a whole loss of

710
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:55,840
Speaker 2: kind of like experience in understanding and many many of

711
00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:58,120
Speaker 2: them came in blind. Don't get me wrong, several of

712
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:01,399
Speaker 2: them were like, yeah, it was great, but it took

713
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:03,640
Speaker 2: a lot of learning, and it took a lot of

714
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:08,000
Speaker 2: breakdown in their conversations, meaning they did not have an

715
00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:11,560
Speaker 2: actual talk about sex until much much later than when

716
00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:15,880
Speaker 2: they actually had sex. So it's so so sad to me.

717
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:18,319
Speaker 2: And for those that were lucky that was like, oh,

718
00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:20,840
Speaker 2: we love sex, amazing, that's that's great. Good on you.

719
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 2: But that was rare that I could see. Of course,

720
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:28,799
Speaker 2: they also these friends also wanted to paint marriage as

721
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:33,320
Speaker 2: perfect because again, if it's not perfect, then they have failed,

722
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:36,279
Speaker 2: and again the women have failed. And then also like

723
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:38,760
Speaker 2: a lot of it, finally people finally kind of realized

724
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:42,280
Speaker 2: how tiring weddings were. So many of them finally admitted

725
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:46,080
Speaker 2: they weren't having sex. On my back, we just crashed, Okay,

726
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:48,799
Speaker 2: which happens.

727
00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:55,480
Speaker 1: Strange. Yeah, we all know they're having sex. That's just strange.

728
00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:58,480
Speaker 2: I get it in this sense, like old school ways,

729
00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:01,480
Speaker 2: you really weren't married until you cod the marriage, which

730
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:06,080
Speaker 2: is again real sexist. But that's not a thing anymore.

731
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:08,319
Speaker 2: So I don't know why we put pressure onto that.

732
00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:12,359
Speaker 2: That makes me sad anyway, And from that previous article

733
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:14,800
Speaker 2: we talked about Kline, she expands on it and says

734
00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:18,600
Speaker 2: client observes and sites an expert who found that many

735
00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:21,799
Speaker 2: women who grew up in purity culture and eventually began

736
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:26,840
Speaker 2: having sex report experiencing an involuntary physical tightening of the vagina,

737
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:30,640
Speaker 2: also known as vaginismus, that is linked to a fear

738
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:34,919
Speaker 2: of penetrative sex and makes intercourse extremely painful. And yes,

739
00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:37,040
Speaker 2: I've had friends experience this, you know what. I actually

740
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:39,920
Speaker 2: I've experienced it. Too too much information, I understand. But

741
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:42,479
Speaker 2: when you are pressured into things, or when you feel

742
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:44,240
Speaker 2: like you have to do things and you're not relaxed,

743
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:46,080
Speaker 2: and then you're thinking about all the things that are bad.

744
00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 2: It doesn't go well, and the testimonies from many women

745
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:54,360
Speaker 2: who have grown in this type of environment is telling.

746
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:59,040
Speaker 2: Here's some quoted testimonies in that article. One moment, she

747
00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:02,680
Speaker 2: spoke to describe having years of awkward, uncomfortable sex with

748
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:06,319
Speaker 2: her husband until she began to feel overcome by such

749
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:10,680
Speaker 2: extreme exhaustion she had difficulty getting out of bed. Another

750
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:13,680
Speaker 2: share that after her first sexual experience, her body began

751
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:17,319
Speaker 2: to shake uncontrollably. In one extreme account, a woman said

752
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:19,760
Speaker 2: that the feelings of panic and guilt flooded her mind

753
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:23,520
Speaker 2: quote like a cloud of locusts after an early sexual encounter.

754
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:28,719
Speaker 2: Soon after, orange sized welts broke out on her arms, stomach, back,

755
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:32,320
Speaker 2: and breast, and it became difficult to breathe. After jumping

756
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:34,880
Speaker 2: into the shower to find relief, wels the size of

757
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:38,840
Speaker 2: both of her palms formed on her vagina. Quote. I

758
00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:41,080
Speaker 2: would say it's the scariest thing I've ever seen in

759
00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:43,600
Speaker 2: my life, she told Kleine. I had no idea what

760
00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:46,319
Speaker 2: was happening to me. My legs, my face, everything was

761
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:49,320
Speaker 2: bright red. It felt like I had absolutely no control

762
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:53,080
Speaker 2: over this horrific, nightmarish things that were happening to my body.

763
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:56,399
Speaker 2: That woman was rushed to the emergency room, and though

764
00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:59,239
Speaker 2: the doctors told her she went into anaphylactic shock, they

765
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:03,040
Speaker 2: couldn't explain what caused it. Again, while she knows something

766
00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:06,160
Speaker 2: medical happened, she told Klein that she is certain that

767
00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:08,760
Speaker 2: something spiritual happened to her as well as the result

768
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:13,200
Speaker 2: of what happens when you tempt Satan, which I'm like, oh,

769
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:19,239
Speaker 2: I hate that. There's so many things because honestly, and

770
00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:23,279
Speaker 2: we're going to talk about this in Motherhood and the

771
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:26,080
Speaker 2: Christian Ideal of mothers, which is another episode, y'all. I

772
00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:27,959
Speaker 2: don't know how many episodes we've got, there's so much.

773
00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:34,000
Speaker 2: But I've had friends blame miscarriages on their previous sexual encounters,

774
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:38,360
Speaker 2: of being sexually promiscuous, and that was something that broke

775
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:40,560
Speaker 2: my heart that that would they would take on that

776
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:44,560
Speaker 2: blame and they would literally apologize and grovel to their

777
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:47,239
Speaker 2: husband because they said, I sinned against you. These are

778
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:49,719
Speaker 2: words I send against you because I had sex before you.

779
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:56,400
Speaker 2: And I'm just like, oh, what a horrible God that

780
00:45:56,440 --> 00:46:02,400
Speaker 2: would that would use that against just women.

781
00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:08,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's heartbreaking. And as more and more people are

782
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:11,400
Speaker 1: talking about the effects of religious trauma and purity culture,

783
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:13,759
Speaker 1: there are still those who are holding tight to these

784
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:17,560
Speaker 1: traditions and even trying to change with the times. As

785
00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:20,560
Speaker 1: the world started to become more sex positive, those in

786
00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:26,400
Speaker 1: conservative churches continued to preach morality again disguised as protecting women.

787
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:31,040
Speaker 1: In another Vice article written by Scout Ropes, oh I

788
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:35,000
Speaker 1: hope I didn't butcher it, titled how young Evangelical women

789
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:38,640
Speaker 1: are navigating a sex positive Internet, Ropes look into a

790
00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:41,719
Speaker 1: group called Girl Defined and how they are talking to

791
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:45,360
Speaker 1: young women. She writes the quote highly visible online ministry.

792
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:48,799
Speaker 1: Girl Defined a collection of blog posts, videos, and instructional

793
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:52,000
Speaker 1: books aiming to provide mentorship to young Christian women. The

794
00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:56,080
Speaker 1: name refers to Bielin Clark's foundational message that one must

795
00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:59,280
Speaker 1: work against the odds to be a God defined girl

796
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:03,120
Speaker 1: and a culture defined worlds and the founders, Bethany Bille

797
00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:06,040
Speaker 1: and Kristin Clark, have been in the influencer world and

798
00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:10,239
Speaker 1: Sisters have created a network focused on issues that matter

799
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:14,000
Speaker 1: to high school and college aged girls, naming sexual politics

800
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:15,360
Speaker 1: and temptation.

801
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:19,080
Speaker 2: Right yeah, and within their focus they advertise a community

802
00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:21,920
Speaker 2: of like minded young women who can come together with

803
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:25,720
Speaker 2: a redefined idea of purity. And from that same article

804
00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:29,439
Speaker 2: they describe the organization like this, as with all sin,

805
00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:32,360
Speaker 2: falling short of the model of purity, physical, emotional, and

806
00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:36,360
Speaker 2: spiritual is seen as almost inevitable. That does not change

807
00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:39,160
Speaker 2: the fact that it is the model. The ultimate sexual

808
00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:42,799
Speaker 2: freedom in the Ministry of Girl defined comes when one

809
00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:47,680
Speaker 2: acknowledges this losing battle and chooses to pursue abstinence anyways,

810
00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:52,560
Speaker 2: so you can little more leeway, little more forgiveness. And

811
00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:54,359
Speaker 2: apparently they do a lot of retreats, and they had

812
00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:57,160
Speaker 2: one recently, and in a recent retreat, while on stage,

813
00:47:57,280 --> 00:48:01,160
Speaker 2: the founders reiterate the quote importance of submission in a

814
00:48:01,239 --> 00:48:05,600
Speaker 2: world that has to fetishize women's independence and self sufficiency.

815
00:48:07,080 --> 00:48:08,960
Speaker 2: I feel like they don't know what fetishism means.

816
00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:18,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, not quite. Maybe glamorized what they were going for.

817
00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:23,239
Speaker 2: Were gonna, We're gonna keep it anyway. And the evolution

818
00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:29,919
Speaker 2: of relevance or perhaps counterculture and if you will, has

819
00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:32,400
Speaker 2: always existed. I laugh and I chuck a little bit

820
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:33,960
Speaker 2: because I was a part of this y'all. I was

821
00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:36,360
Speaker 2: part of this, I admitted freely. This was my early

822
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:41,120
Speaker 2: two thousands upbringing in leadership in church.

823
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:41,800
Speaker 3: Uh.

824
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:46,440
Speaker 2: Their need to grow and expand with the changes, and uh,

825
00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:49,080
Speaker 2: it's nothing new in the big sea church, you know,

826
00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:54,240
Speaker 2: the big c the capital c Developments like retreats. Uh,

827
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:58,279
Speaker 2: youth groups have always been a catalyst for movements like

828
00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:01,040
Speaker 2: purity movement, which is what we talked about previously about

829
00:49:01,080 --> 00:49:03,640
Speaker 2: going to camps and what they can do, how they're

830
00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:06,720
Speaker 2: just focused on it. We talked about praise and worship,

831
00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:09,520
Speaker 2: which is kind of a newer thing with like full

832
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:12,400
Speaker 2: on bands. I know recently, I believe I saw a

833
00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:17,640
Speaker 2: video where they had the musicians flying in from the

834
00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:21,719
Speaker 2: back to the stage, and this is a church, this

835
00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:25,040
Speaker 2: is a church, but they really are like trying to

836
00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:32,200
Speaker 2: amp up entertainment within the church culture. I don't know

837
00:49:32,239 --> 00:49:33,200
Speaker 2: what else to say that.

838
00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:38,239
Speaker 1: I went to a very very small church, extremely small,

839
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:40,359
Speaker 1: but most of my friends went to bigger churches. And

840
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:43,000
Speaker 1: one of them invited me to her church once and

841
00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:45,399
Speaker 1: it was I think it was middle school, and she

842
00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:48,479
Speaker 1: was in a band, a metal band, i might say,

843
00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:51,960
Speaker 1: and she was playing at the church that night, and

844
00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:54,399
Speaker 1: I remember just being blown away, like this is not

845
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:55,120
Speaker 1: like my church.

846
00:49:57,239 --> 00:50:00,360
Speaker 2: Oh did you not get into all the like big

847
00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:06,399
Speaker 2: rock star groups of the Christian groups technically P O D. Yeah, yep,

848
00:50:09,520 --> 00:50:11,520
Speaker 2: which I think they're like complete opposite.

849
00:50:11,520 --> 00:50:11,640
Speaker 3: Now.

850
00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:14,279
Speaker 2: I feel like these bands I've grown with us. I

851
00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:17,000
Speaker 2: think there's a couple of bands that I was like, oh,

852
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:19,520
Speaker 2: they're Christian and they were like hell no, not anymore.

853
00:50:23,560 --> 00:50:26,720
Speaker 2: And then there's some real embarrassing like white boy raps

854
00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:28,520
Speaker 2: in the Christian world that I'm like, why did I

855
00:50:28,520 --> 00:50:29,440
Speaker 2: think this was cool?

856
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:30,560
Speaker 1: Yeah?

857
00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:34,080
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, but it was super cool for me as

858
00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:37,640
Speaker 2: a teenager. I guess being able to find that type

859
00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:43,759
Speaker 2: of music that's talking about Jesus, oh Dear Face is

860
00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:44,319
Speaker 2: turning red.

861
00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:02,760
Speaker 1: Well, my, like the movements in these churches, their singular

862
00:51:02,880 --> 00:51:06,880
Speaker 1: focus remains on cis white, heteronormative groups. And this is

863
00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:11,720
Speaker 1: not by mistake. Earlier be quoted from the article Decolonizing

864
00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:14,720
Speaker 1: Purity Culture, but we wanted to share this from that article.

865
00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:20,200
Speaker 1: Two quote, Christian nationalist ideology has historically had racialized and

866
00:51:20,239 --> 00:51:24,840
Speaker 1: imperialist underpinnings, suggesting that the resurgence of Christian nationalism in

867
00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:29,520
Speaker 1: the public sphere, such as AOUM served to buttress notions

868
00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:33,560
Speaker 1: of white purity and systemic non white exclusion in American

869
00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:38,480
Speaker 1: social life. The knowledge vacuum created by AOUM disproportionately impacts

870
00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:43,000
Speaker 1: WOC due to its association with decreased access to sexual

871
00:51:43,080 --> 00:51:49,000
Speaker 1: and reproductive health decisions. Additionally, AOUM effects WOC differently than

872
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:52,400
Speaker 1: their white female counterparts due to the perpetuation of racialized

873
00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:58,560
Speaker 1: tropes of hypersexuality and presumed inherent sexual knowledge specific to

874
00:51:58,680 --> 00:52:00,680
Speaker 1: black and LATINX students.

875
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:03,480
Speaker 2: Right, and when we say, let you see, we're talking

876
00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:06,440
Speaker 2: about women of color, and they continue as they address

877
00:52:06,480 --> 00:52:09,480
Speaker 2: the intersectional rature of women of color. While there is

878
00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:13,440
Speaker 2: clear evidence of the harms perpetuated by purity culture, there

879
00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:16,160
Speaker 2: has been a dearth of empirical research and literature that

880
00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:20,080
Speaker 2: includes the experiences of women of color in that discourse. Today,

881
00:52:20,200 --> 00:52:23,880
Speaker 2: participants simple within the empirical literature are disproportionally white slash

882
00:52:23,920 --> 00:52:27,520
Speaker 2: European American and assume that since purity culture is primarily

883
00:52:27,520 --> 00:52:31,279
Speaker 2: a product of white evangelicalism, communities of color are not

884
00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:34,799
Speaker 2: impacted to the same degree as white women. However, as

885
00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:38,839
Speaker 2: noted above, the religious right and white evangelicalism have been

886
00:52:38,880 --> 00:52:41,840
Speaker 2: a dominant influence in the cultural and political makeup of

887
00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:47,920
Speaker 2: mainstream North American society. This largely and disproportionately impacts communities

888
00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:51,920
Speaker 2: of color through various intersectional forms of oppression, both locally

889
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:52,840
Speaker 2: and globally.

890
00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:57,839
Speaker 1: Quote continues given that white evangelical narratives greatly influence how

891
00:52:57,880 --> 00:53:01,000
Speaker 1: we discuss race and sexuality in the US, Centering white

892
00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:05,359
Speaker 1: women's experiences within purity culture perpetuates a colorblind racial ideology.

893
00:53:05,680 --> 00:53:08,520
Speaker 1: This ideology is a modern form of racism that relies

894
00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:12,080
Speaker 1: on color evasion i e. Denial of racial differences and

895
00:53:12,160 --> 00:53:16,879
Speaker 1: emphasizing sameness and power evasion ie denial of racism by

896
00:53:16,880 --> 00:53:20,239
Speaker 1: emphasizing the belief that everyone has the same opportunities, which

897
00:53:20,280 --> 00:53:24,920
Speaker 1: has been shown to reinforce racial prejudices and or inequality.

898
00:53:25,239 --> 00:53:28,400
Speaker 2: We've talked about this before, how research is inherently focused

899
00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:31,399
Speaker 2: on the heteronormative data, which draws a distinct line about

900
00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:35,680
Speaker 2: what demographic is worth counting while erasing all the marginalized communities.

901
00:53:36,160 --> 00:53:39,680
Speaker 2: And yeah, here's more from that research in Anderson's formative

902
00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:42,799
Speaker 2: book written in twenty fifteen on Christian purity culture called

903
00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:46,920
Speaker 2: Damaged Goods. New Perspectives on Christian Purity They called attention

904
00:53:46,960 --> 00:53:50,600
Speaker 2: to the evaluative differences within its modesty culture, illuminating the

905
00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:54,000
Speaker 2: ways in which modesty was created for white, able bodied

906
00:53:54,080 --> 00:53:56,960
Speaker 2: and is applied to the bodies of women of color differently.

907
00:53:57,320 --> 00:54:01,440
Speaker 2: While all women suffer from objectification and sexualists, black women

908
00:54:01,560 --> 00:54:04,640
Speaker 2: receive the brunt of the sexualization due to their simultaneously

909
00:54:04,719 --> 00:54:08,919
Speaker 2: blackness and femaleness, which reflects on the unique ways gender

910
00:54:09,040 --> 00:54:12,920
Speaker 2: racism is perpetuated within and woven throughout purity culture and

911
00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:17,000
Speaker 2: its teaching. Black women's bodies are sexualized by both women

912
00:54:17,120 --> 00:54:19,879
Speaker 2: and men in ways that white bodies are not, and

913
00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:22,680
Speaker 2: this is a distinct privilege that white women have. And

914
00:54:22,760 --> 00:54:25,120
Speaker 2: we definitely wanted to add all of that to this

915
00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:29,040
Speaker 2: conversation because we can't ignore the intersectionality of these types

916
00:54:29,080 --> 00:54:31,719
Speaker 2: of traumas, but it is on a deeper level on

917
00:54:31,760 --> 00:54:35,239
Speaker 2: different points. And who is seen once again as being

918
00:54:35,360 --> 00:54:40,319
Speaker 2: worthy of having that conversation and getting treatment from it

919
00:54:40,360 --> 00:54:43,240
Speaker 2: because right now, the reason we have so much content

920
00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:46,839
Speaker 2: in the last ten years, last twenty years, there has

921
00:54:46,880 --> 00:54:51,360
Speaker 2: been a focus in treating what is RTS since doctor

922
00:54:51,360 --> 00:54:54,879
Speaker 2: Wennell came out with her own experiences talking about how

923
00:54:55,400 --> 00:55:00,000
Speaker 2: to come away from the dogma of very very very

924
00:55:00,600 --> 00:55:05,799
Speaker 2: deep religion theological teachings. I guess when you're indoctrinated by

925
00:55:05,880 --> 00:55:08,640
Speaker 2: a lot of this, because this works on an emotional, physical,

926
00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:12,640
Speaker 2: and a mental level that is completely different from your

927
00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:18,040
Speaker 2: other types of conversations, even teachings. And yeah, this has

928
00:55:18,080 --> 00:55:20,960
Speaker 2: been a long episode. We know there's so much that

929
00:55:21,040 --> 00:55:24,120
Speaker 2: we could address. We haven't even talked about the treatments

930
00:55:24,160 --> 00:55:27,440
Speaker 2: that are available, if there is, and what people would recommend.

931
00:55:27,560 --> 00:55:31,799
Speaker 2: There's a few different types. Counseling is definitely good. I

932
00:55:31,840 --> 00:55:36,800
Speaker 2: think it was important for us to note the extent

933
00:55:37,520 --> 00:55:40,480
Speaker 2: of how these types of traumas do affect people and

934
00:55:40,680 --> 00:55:45,879
Speaker 2: why movements like the Purity movement purity culture can be

935
00:55:45,960 --> 00:55:48,560
Speaker 2: It is still very very damaging, and it kind of

936
00:55:48,600 --> 00:55:50,799
Speaker 2: looks like we're going back into it and it makes

937
00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:54,280
Speaker 2: me very very very sad and very very very scared

938
00:55:55,000 --> 00:55:57,960
Speaker 2: by our gen zers. Man, they're killing it with like

939
00:55:58,040 --> 00:56:02,440
Speaker 2: trying to find the truth on all of this, and

940
00:56:02,480 --> 00:56:04,520
Speaker 2: there's some things that we haven't talked about. Again, we

941
00:56:04,560 --> 00:56:08,359
Speaker 2: do want to address purity culture and queerness, and we're

942
00:56:08,360 --> 00:56:11,319
Speaker 2: going to talk about queerness in religious trauma, so we'll

943
00:56:11,360 --> 00:56:14,640
Speaker 2: put that in with that conversation, we are going to

944
00:56:14,640 --> 00:56:19,640
Speaker 2: talk about women, specifically in Christian culture that are married

945
00:56:19,960 --> 00:56:23,759
Speaker 2: married women and the types of abuse and trauma that

946
00:56:23,760 --> 00:56:27,880
Speaker 2: they suffer because of how it's set up, as we

947
00:56:27,920 --> 00:56:32,400
Speaker 2: talked about the misogynistic and patriarchal ideals of what Christian

948
00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:37,279
Speaker 2: morality is, especially from the Western nice point of view,

949
00:56:37,400 --> 00:56:41,560
Speaker 2: especially from that Christian nationalist point of view. We're getting there, y'all,

950
00:56:41,760 --> 00:56:42,520
Speaker 2: but it's a lot.

951
00:56:43,040 --> 00:56:45,839
Speaker 1: It is it is, and like you said, we knew

952
00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:48,040
Speaker 1: it would be. So that's why we put it off

953
00:56:48,160 --> 00:56:52,640
Speaker 1: for months and months and months. But here we are

954
00:56:52,719 --> 00:56:55,600
Speaker 1: and we will be back with those episodes. There is

955
00:56:55,640 --> 00:56:58,960
Speaker 1: a lot more to address in the meantime. Listeners, If

956
00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:02,520
Speaker 1: you have any thoughts about out this, any resources, we

957
00:57:02,560 --> 00:57:04,839
Speaker 1: would love to hear from you. You can email us

958
00:57:04,840 --> 00:57:07,560
Speaker 1: at Stuff Media, mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You

959
00:57:07,600 --> 00:57:09,719
Speaker 1: can find us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast, or

960
00:57:09,760 --> 00:57:12,000
Speaker 1: on Instagram and TikTok at Stuff I've Never told You.

961
00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:14,560
Speaker 1: We're also on YouTube. We also have a book coming out.

962
00:57:14,600 --> 00:57:17,280
Speaker 1: Do you can pre order it. That's Stuff you Should

963
00:57:17,280 --> 00:57:21,600
Speaker 1: Read Books dot com. Thanks as always to our super producer, Christina,

964
00:57:21,760 --> 00:57:25,840
Speaker 1: our executive producer Maya, and our contributor Joey. Thank you all, yes,

965
00:57:26,240 --> 00:57:28,560
Speaker 1: and thanks to you for listening. Stuff I Never Told

966
00:57:28,600 --> 00:57:30,520
Speaker 1: You is production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from my

967
00:57:30,600 --> 00:57:32,280
Speaker 1: Heart Radio, you can check out the ar heart radio app,

968
00:57:32,280 --> 00:57:34,400
Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or regular listen to your favorite shows.