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Speaker 1: Body backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. Even to this day,

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Speaker 1: at this stage in my life, I'm fascinated by one

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Speaker 1: group of law enforcement people, and those are state troopers

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Speaker 1: or state police, dependent upon the jurisdiction are in. And

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Speaker 1: one of the reasons, I think it's the fact that

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Speaker 1: I've got this little bitty boy that never grew up

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Speaker 1: still within me, and I love seeing the uniforms that

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Speaker 1: some of these state state troopers were because they're really cool.

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Speaker 1: There's a couple of them that come to mind. Let's see,

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Speaker 1: Rhode Island has got these fantastic looking uniforms. State of

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Speaker 1: New York really cool. They've got kind of these slouch

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Speaker 1: hats that they wear. I've always been a fan of

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Speaker 1: how these things are configured, what the purpose is, because

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Speaker 1: you know, you look at them now and it doesn't

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Speaker 1: necessarily look like the most efficient way to clothe somebody.

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Speaker 1: But you have to understand state troopers and state police

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Speaker 1: that are out there running the roads and working cases

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Speaker 1: out there, they're a different type of law enforcement. They're

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Speaker 1: there to really really set the standard for representing the

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Speaker 1: law enforcement of that state. You know, when you hear

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Speaker 1: those shoes clicking down the roadway approaching your car. There's

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Speaker 1: a certain level of intimidation to it, and they take

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Speaker 1: their appearance very very seriously, like those smoky the bear

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Speaker 1: hats that they wear. It's meant to intimidate. They almost

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Speaker 1: look like Marine Corps deay's and behave that way. But

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Speaker 1: you know, even when someone is selected for law enforcement,

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Speaker 1: you never know what you're actually gonna get because people

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Speaker 1: on paper, people during training look really really good sometimes,

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Speaker 1: but the proof, as we all know in this life,

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Speaker 1: is in the putting. How do they hold together over

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Speaker 1: the long term. Today, we're going to talk about a

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Speaker 1: case involving the wife of a former trooper and how

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Speaker 1: this trooper now has been accused, tried, and convicted of murder.

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Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Body Bags. Hey day.

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Speaker 1: Let me ask you a question, buddy, have you ever

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Speaker 1: heard the click click click outside your window, headed up,

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Speaker 1: headed up alongside your car as the state trooper approaches you.

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Speaker 1: I'll confess I have, and it always, it always sends

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Speaker 1: a shiver down my spine. I may not have been

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Speaker 1: doing anything or what I may not have perceived that

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Speaker 1: I was doing anything wrong, but it's different than being

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Speaker 1: pulled over by a local police officer. Because most of

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Speaker 1: the state troopers I've encountered over the course of my

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Speaker 1: career as an death investigator or as a private citizen, unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: there was something different about them because of their appearance,

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Speaker 1: the way they carried themselves. It's a different breed of

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Speaker 1: law enforcement. Troopers are the sentinels. They're kind of the

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Speaker 1: sentinels that are there to watch care over what's happening

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Speaker 1: in their particular jurisdiction at any moment in time. And Dave,

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Speaker 1: I got to tell you, if you want to think

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Speaker 1: about a moral compass, I think we've got a former

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Speaker 1: trooper here whose compass was busted.

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Speaker 2: What was he a former when this happened. Joe, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: yeah he was.

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Speaker 1: He well, here you go he actually he actually was,

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Speaker 1: Yeah he was. And he had resigned or been forced

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Speaker 1: to resign or fired back all the way back in

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Speaker 1: twenty fourteen. And it was because of all things. Dig

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Speaker 1: this falsification of a title I think on a motorcycle

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Speaker 1: and listen, troopers are very well aware of title laws,

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Speaker 1: all right, that's one of the things they do with

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Speaker 1: you know that they deal with Let me see your

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Speaker 1: license and registration that's the that's at the top of

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Speaker 1: the list, all right. And so the fact that he

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Speaker 1: got caught doing that, you really wonder and I wondered

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Speaker 1: this a lot about law enforcement personnel that have gotten

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Speaker 1: caught up in crimes. That's what he got caught for.

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Speaker 1: What else could he have been in along the way?

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Speaker 2: And we can spend days because think about it, he

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Speaker 2: got caught with the one thing he knows for sure

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Speaker 2: everything about all the things that we didn't catch. So

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Speaker 2: moving on, he calls nine one one and has a

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Speaker 2: story that his beloved wife, the love of his life,

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Speaker 2: has committed suicide in the bathtub. When investigators get there,

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Speaker 2: they make a couple of notes, Joe, I've never been

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Speaker 2: to a crime scene like this. According to Howard, here

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Speaker 2: he heard a thud. Two hours later, he goes to

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Speaker 2: check on his wife and she's in the bathtub. She's

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Speaker 2: cold to the touch, and he calls nine one one.

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Speaker 2: When the detective gets there, and there you know, the

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Speaker 2: detective shows up along with whoever was on call. The

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Speaker 2: water in the bathtub is still warm, So immediately you've

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Speaker 2: got a problem. You've got a very cold body and

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Speaker 2: a very warm tub. Those two seem mutually exclusive to me.

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Speaker 2: So that's where this investigation began. We're with red flags.

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Speaker 2: Let me give you a couple of the red flags

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Speaker 2: of the scene. Less blood than expected. And that's odd

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Speaker 2: because in a bathtub with water, holy moly, a little

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Speaker 2: cut in water makes it look like you were attacked

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Speaker 2: by jaws. Just a little blood goes a long way

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Speaker 2: in water. There was less blood than expected. There was

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Speaker 2: glass found on the floor, clothes were turning in the dryer.

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Speaker 2: Does somebody commit suicide when they have all these things

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Speaker 2: going on? She had just decided to move into a

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Speaker 2: new home. They were going through a divorce, she and

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Speaker 2: her husband. She got her nails done earlier in the day.

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Speaker 2: She was scheduling appointments to begin a body transformation, and

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Speaker 2: she was excitedly telling friends about her new job. And

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Speaker 2: by the way, romantically, she had moved on from her

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Speaker 2: soon to be ex husband, and I already had a

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Speaker 2: boyfriend who actually was treating her right. Apparently, those were

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Speaker 2: all the things going along in Kenny's life at the time,

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Speaker 2: when she's forty nine years old, getting ready to step

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Speaker 2: out and start a new life. And that night the

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Speaker 2: investigator was on scene for six hours Joe. And when

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Speaker 2: Kendy's daughter came in, that would be Daniel Howard's stepdaughter,

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Speaker 2: she immediately accused him of killing her. And the detective

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Speaker 2: is listening to all of this, so that sets the

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Speaker 2: stage for suicide or murder.

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Speaker 1: I love what you said just a second ago, and

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Speaker 1: this is why from an investigative standpoint, and I know

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Speaker 1: that they're doing their job when you say this. They

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Speaker 1: talked about the assessment of body temperature versus water temperature.

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Speaker 1: And for those that don't know, when we conduct death

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Speaker 1: investigations and they happen in a tub that is filled

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Speaker 1: with water, we will actually take that data. We will measure,

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Speaker 1: first off, the volume of the water if it's possible,

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Speaker 1: but secondly we measure the temperature of the water well,

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Speaker 1: and we'll take readings on that because, as you know,

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Speaker 1: if it's like it's like anything else. If you're in

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Speaker 1: a if you want to take a hot bath, the

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Speaker 1: hot bath is not going to remain hot out into infinity.

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Speaker 1: You have to heat the water up. The fact that

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Speaker 1: when they got there, he actually it's very tactile, isn't it.

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Speaker 1: He actually tested the water. He could appreciate. You don't

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Speaker 1: have to have a specific number. I mean, all of

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Speaker 1: us can differentiate between hot and cold. He said the

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Speaker 1: water timp was warm, her body was cold. So going

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Speaker 1: with that and knowing what we have always talked about

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Speaker 1: on body bags, my friend, is that our working assumption,

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Speaker 1: even in cases that appear to be quote unquote suicides,

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Speaker 1: our working assumption is that everything, every single case is

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Speaker 1: a homicide until proven otherwise. And in this particular case,

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Speaker 1: I think that that is significant. And I got to

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Speaker 1: tell you, Dave, the daughter, for my money, is not

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Speaker 1: far off base because the one thing that she knew about,

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Speaker 1: I think, was that there had been I'm sure hints

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Speaker 1: at least of ongoing spousal abuse in this relationship between

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Speaker 1: the decedent and her husband who she was divorcing. So

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Speaker 1: and you know, families get a sense of all of this.

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Speaker 1: And one of the things that you'll find out in

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Speaker 1: suicide investigations in particular, and when people are really honest

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Speaker 1: with you, they'll talk about what we refer to as

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Speaker 1: the affect of the victim. They'll talk about if their

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Speaker 1: affect was bright, if it was hopeful, you know, those

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Speaker 1: sorts of things. Rarely do those outward appearances betray something else.

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Speaker 1: You know if most of the time you will get

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Speaker 1: people that have a kind of a stormy darkness to them,

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Speaker 1: particularly if they've gone into a planning phase with taking

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Speaker 1: their lives. But it seems to me, Dave, that everything

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Speaker 1: runs contrary to that narrative. And she's literally, like you said,

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Speaker 1: getting a fresh start.

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Speaker 2: At forty nine years old. She was getting that divover. Okay,

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Speaker 2: you know what, I think we all realized there are

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Speaker 2: times in our life, there are markers in our life.

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Speaker 2: And she had she'd had a relationship early in life,

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Speaker 2: right after high school that gave her a child. Then

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Speaker 2: she met Dan Howard and they got married and had

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Speaker 2: a child, and I think she just had her fill

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Speaker 2: of being boyd Yeah, I think she had her filly

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Speaker 2: getting pushed around, Joe. I think she had spent most

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Speaker 2: of her adult life trying to take care of her

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Speaker 2: children and try to probably protect them from stepdad dad,

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Speaker 2: and she seemed to have been taking the worse for

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Speaker 2: the wearer. And now the kids were grown up and

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Speaker 2: she had you know, that had two million dollars in

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Speaker 2: where they were worth two million dollars and stuff, they

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Speaker 2: had money and what have you in Land And I

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Speaker 2: looked over what the defense claimed at trial. I looked

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Speaker 2: over their clients and they're like, how can you twist

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Speaker 2: and turn all of this to say, a woman that

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Speaker 2: is taking care of herself and has a is trying

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Speaker 2: to change the way she looks, You're losing weight, what

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Speaker 2: have you. Don't we all do that as we take

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Speaker 2: care of ourselves. That's part of that. That's not a

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Speaker 2: body dysmorphia thing.

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Speaker 1: No, it's not. And you know even that day in

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Speaker 1: the immediate you know, you talked about the body transformation thing.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what she was going to get done,

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Speaker 1: as liposuction or one of these cold things that they do,

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Speaker 1: or whatever the case might be. But here's something in

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Speaker 1: the fine detail here. She'd even gotten her nails done.

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Speaker 2: Doesn't make sense to me that somebody who's thinking about

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Speaker 2: killing themselves cares about their fingernails.

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Speaker 1: Well, the thing about it is, Dave, is that you,

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Speaker 1: just like the detectives smelled a rat, they knew that

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Speaker 1: something else was going on, and boy, what a tail

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Speaker 1: unfolded before them. I've said this when I speak to

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Speaker 1: people my classes, I tell them this. I do a

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Speaker 1: whole section in my death investigation class at Jacksonville State

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Speaker 1: on the investigation of suicides because they are unique. They

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Speaker 1: are unique apart from every other kind of death investigation

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Speaker 1: that you will handle as a death investigator. The nature

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Speaker 1: of them is different. The way families behave are different.

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Speaker 1: The life of the victim many times is guarded. You

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Speaker 1: don't have a lot to work with, and unless it's

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Speaker 1: an outlier like where they're trying to make some kind

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Speaker 1: of public statement, a political statement, or you know, I

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Speaker 1: don't know, maybe they're trying to draw attention themselves. These

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Speaker 1: sens are done in private, so as an investigator, you're

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Speaker 1: already behind the eight ball. That's why I always say

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Speaker 1: I would if I was a death investigator, I'd much

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Speaker 1: rather work a homicide than work a suicide because you're

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Speaker 1: left wanting many times, and there's too many assumptions that

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Speaker 1: some people make, and you're always kind of teetering on

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Speaker 1: that line. You're really wondering, you know, in the wee

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Speaker 1: hours of the morning, you go you get home, and

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Speaker 1: you're thinking, did I do everything that I possibly could

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Speaker 1: with this case? Did I did I look under every

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Speaker 1: possible rock? And what you're looking for is some kind

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Speaker 1: of rationale for why this person would have done it?

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Speaker 2: In this case, why would they have committed suicide? And

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Speaker 2: if you asked that, it's like you don't have any

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Speaker 2: reasons for it. But yeah, you told me that the

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Speaker 2: gun that was used in the alleged suicide from the

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Speaker 2: Dan Howard school of troopering, that the gun was given

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Speaker 2: to her to Kenny by her dad.

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Speaker 1: Kendy Howard's father provided her with a weapon. And here's

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Speaker 1: the kicker. He provided a weapon to her for protection

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Speaker 1: from her then husband, Daniel Howard. So that gives you

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Speaker 1: an insight and gives you an insight and what the

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Speaker 1: family dynamic was like.

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Speaker 2: Is it possible based on her injuries, Joe, maybe she

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Speaker 2: got that gun out to defend herself and he took

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Speaker 2: it from her. Because when I look at the injuries,

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Speaker 2: you're gonna have to walk me through what she looked like.

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Speaker 2: All we've been told so far is that when Dan

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Speaker 2: Howard called nine to one one, it was to report

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Speaker 2: that his wife had committed suicide in the bathroom by

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Speaker 2: shooting herself in the head or mouth. And that's what

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Speaker 2: we came on the scene. She's in the bathtub, she's

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Speaker 2: got a gunshot wound to her face, and she's dead

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Speaker 2: and we told you at the beginning, they recognize not

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Speaker 2: enough blood in the water in the water form. Now

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Speaker 2: that gun what other what injuries did she have? Because

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Speaker 2: if it's a suicide, she's not going to have any

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Speaker 2: injuries except for the one gunshot wound.

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Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, And here's one of the big tails that

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Speaker 1: you get with. And let me explain kind of lay

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Speaker 1: this out too. Forensically, there's a term that we use

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Speaker 1: in forensic pathology and medical legal death investigation that is

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Speaker 1: called intra oral gunshot wound ntra intra meaning within. Don't

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Speaker 1: get it confused, and I did as a young man.

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Speaker 1: I used to have a forensic pathologist that would correct

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Speaker 1: me constantly, where I would always say inter oral, and

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Speaker 1: inter means like intersection, you know, where you're coming together,

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Speaker 1: two spaces meet. But intra means that the muzzle of

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Speaker 1: the weapon is literally inside okay, inside of the mouth. Now,

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Speaker 1: you see people in movies and whatnot that will take

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Speaker 1: their life by placing, say a weapon beneath their chin.

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Speaker 1: All right, I've had hundreds of those cases over the years.

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Speaker 1: But you do get people that do an intra oral

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Speaker 1: gunshot woman, which means that the muzzle of the weapon

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Speaker 1: is placed inside of the mouth. Now, here's what you

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Speaker 1: get when you get that. If you're using a semi

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Speaker 1: automatic weapon, which means it's got a slide mechanism on

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Speaker 1: the top, many times you will get shattered teeth or

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Speaker 1: fracture teeth. And that's just the beginning. One of the

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Speaker 1: reasons you get that is because what you don't see

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Speaker 1: when the weapon initiates and fires, that slide, which is

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Speaker 1: heavy metal, slides back, and as that action is sliding back,

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Speaker 1: it will slide against the teeth and it literally fractures

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Speaker 1: the teeth. You'll see teeth broken off, or you'll see

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Speaker 1: them fracture. Not to mention what happens to what's referred

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Speaker 1: to as the hard palette. If you'll take your tongue

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Speaker 1: and put it on the roof of your mouth, that's

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Speaker 1: the hard palate. You've got a little bit of tissue

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Speaker 1: that's there separating, separating the interior of your mouth from

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Speaker 1: that hard pallet. The hard pallette is in existence there

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Speaker 1: that it's directly beneath the sinuses, okay, and it's very thin,

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Speaker 1: very very thin, and it shatters most of the time

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Speaker 1: what they came away with. And this is really fascinating

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Speaker 1: about this case, and I think probably one of the

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Speaker 1: things that really I think from a physical evidence standpoint,

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Speaker 1: other than the absence of the blood and certainly the

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Speaker 1: clothes and the dryer. And it wasn't just it was

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Speaker 1: like the carpet you know that you find around the tub.

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Speaker 1: This the trajectory of this round is going downward, Dave.

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Speaker 1: It's so it's from above to below and from front

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Speaker 1: to back. Okay. And when you think about that, most

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Speaker 1: people that take their life with an intra or intra

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Speaker 1: oral gunshot wound, the weapon just naturally is pitched upward,

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Speaker 1: so it's going to go generally through the floor or

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Speaker 1: the roof of the mouth and then into the brain. Okay,

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Speaker 1: And you'll have all of this nasty fracturing that's going on.

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Speaker 1: You'll have gas fractures, you'll get splitting of the skin.

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Speaker 1: Many times, you'll get like these, the cheeks will actually

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Speaker 1: bellow out. Sometimes I've seen that happen, but not in

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Speaker 1: this case. You've got this kind of atypical gunshot wound

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Speaker 1: where the weapon is pointed downward within the mouth, and

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Speaker 1: so that leads to I think at least probably containment

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Speaker 1: of any blood that may have been there bleeding from

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Speaker 1: say the roof of the mouth. The brain in that

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Speaker 1: area is so very vascular, tons of blood everywhere. But

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Speaker 1: here's what I am thinking that Emmy saw when they

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Speaker 1: got in there. And again the emme is a completely

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Speaker 1: different story here, because that's kind of interesting. But when

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Speaker 1: you track this wound in her mouth, if it's going

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Speaker 1: from above to below, that is atypical for an intra

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Speaker 1: oral gunshot wound. And when we track it, it's a

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Speaker 1: downward trajectory, So that means that when she would have

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Speaker 1: fired it, she would have had to have flipped the

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Speaker 1: weapon up, probably actuated the trigger with her thumb. More

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Speaker 1: than likely. It's not something where she could invert the weapon.

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Speaker 1: I suppose she could, but highly unlikely invert the weapon

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Speaker 1: like you would if it's going up. It's a completely

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Speaker 1: different position. And how do you get into that position?

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Speaker 1: How do you how would you go about initiating this

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Speaker 1: firing sequence and not leave any more evidence than you

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Speaker 1: had when they got into that wound track, Dave, I

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Speaker 1: suspect that they didn't find as much hemorrhage as you

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Speaker 1: might think that you would have. And what do we know, well,

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Speaker 1: if if you're if your blood is not pumping, You're

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Speaker 1: not going to have hemorrhage, and so all those interstitial

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Speaker 1: tissues along the way are actually absent a significant amount

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Speaker 1: of hemorrhage. So the answer, of course, must lie somewhere else. Dave,

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Speaker 1: I was sitting here earlier, and I was, you know,

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Speaker 1: reading up on Kendy Howard's death, sitting there, and I

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Speaker 1: was thinking, you know, got the smacks of another case

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Speaker 1: that I've been involved in, and I had an aha moment. God,

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Speaker 1: I hate mentioning this woman's name, but here we go.

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Speaker 1: Forgive me, Dave and everybody else. Jody Arius. I I

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Speaker 1: got to thinking about and let's don't say Jody Aria

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Speaker 1: so much. She's the perpetrator, but let's let's think about

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Speaker 1: her boyfriend, Travis Alexander. You know, one of the things

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Speaker 1: in that case that really stood out, a lot of

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Speaker 1: it had to do with hemorrhage in that case when

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Speaker 1: they were trying to assess his injuries. You know, he's

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Speaker 1: eventually found, you know, kind of tossed into the shower

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Speaker 1: by her, which she was convicted of. One of the

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Speaker 1: things that you saw when and we reenacted this at CNN.

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Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, we even mocked up the scene.

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Speaker 1: He had blood that was deposited on the laboratory sink

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Speaker 1: in there, and it was fine. As for blood that

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Speaker 1: he had coughed up, that's because she nicked you know,

336
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Speaker 1: airway or his lung or whatever the case might be.

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Speaker 1: She stabbed him multiple times, as everybody knows, ad nauseum,

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Speaker 1: but you know, as he They believe he crawled down

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Speaker 1: the hallway away from where the initial attack took place

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Speaker 1: in the bathroom. One of the interesting little sides about

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Speaker 1: that case that not a lot of people talk about,

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Speaker 1: but I always sound fascinating was that she had actually

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Speaker 1: popped him in the head with a smaller caliber weapon.

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Speaker 1: And if you'll place your your left index finger, I

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Speaker 1: think it was and I might get this wrong above

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Speaker 1: the left eye, like superior to the left eye. That

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Speaker 1: round actually tracked from above to below and from left

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Speaker 1: to right. I might have my directions mixed up, but

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Speaker 1: I think that's actually what's important here, though, is that

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Speaker 1: she was in a dominant position over him and when

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Speaker 1: she fired that round. And I remember distinctly watching that

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Speaker 1: Emmy on the stand talking about this case. He said

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Speaker 1: there was absolutely no hemorrhage in the wound. Track and

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Speaker 1: you're talking about going through arguably the most vascular area

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Speaker 1: of the body. So what that tells me is that

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Speaker 1: she shot him after he was dead. And to bring

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Speaker 1: this back around to the Kendy Howard case, it would

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Speaker 1: seem as though that she had already met her end.

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Speaker 1: They concluded she had already met her end before that

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Speaker 1: weapon was ever placed in her mouth. And given the

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Speaker 1: odd trajectory where we're talking about going from above to below,

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Speaker 1: you've got this weird kind of downward angle. You know,

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Speaker 1: You've got these people, these scientists that are scratching their

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Speaker 1: heads over it, and they're wondering, you know, well, how

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Speaker 1: does this actually happen? And of course they kind of

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Speaker 1: felt as though that he was being deceptive here because

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Speaker 1: it's something just didn't marry up. And I can also

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Speaker 1: tell you something else. They found over thirty bruises on

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Speaker 1: her body.

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Speaker 2: Day thirty bruises on her body, and she's dead before

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Speaker 2: she's shot in the mouth. That's not suicide. I don't

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Speaker 2: know how. I guess I'm just a lame and I'm

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Speaker 2: you know, read a lot of stories about murder, cover

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Speaker 2: a lot of them, study a lot in research, and

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Speaker 2: yet how do you ignore all of the wounds on

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Speaker 2: her body before she ends up dead in the bathtub

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Speaker 2: of warm water with her body being cold.

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Speaker 1: One of the really fascinating elements to this that has

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Speaker 1: been brought out is the fact and this goes back

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Speaker 1: to him having been a trooper in law enforcement. When

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Speaker 1: you're going through the academy and you're going through ongoing training,

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Speaker 1: they talk about how you can effectively restrain somebody, and

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Speaker 1: you know, one of the things that the police have

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Speaker 1: gotten away from. And as a matter of fact, one

385
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Speaker 1: of the experts that testified in the George Floyd case

386
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Speaker 1: testified in this particular trial, and this had to do

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Speaker 1: with police restraint moves and all this sort of thing.

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Speaker 1: When you begin to try to assess if there's any

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Speaker 1: kind of asphix ye old death, the first place we

390
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Speaker 1: go to are the eyes. We always check the eyes

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Speaker 1: to see if there are petikii, which are the little

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Speaker 1: blood vessels that build up all of that pressure from

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Speaker 1: the blood backing up in the skull essentially and they

394
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Speaker 1: wind up bursting. Well, there was no evidence of petikia here,

395
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Speaker 1: but what they believe is that there was possibility he

396
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Speaker 1: could have used a choke hold on her where he

397
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Speaker 1: applies pressure from the rear and gets her like in

398
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Speaker 1: the crook of his arm. He's not actually physically choking

399
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Speaker 1: her out with his hands, where you're creating all of

400
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Speaker 1: this pressure that's backing up in her head. He's actually

401
00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:45,359
Speaker 1: doing it so that if he has her in the

402
00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:48,879
Speaker 1: crook of her of his arm, he can diminish her

403
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Speaker 1: ability to uptake oxygen to the point where it's almost

404
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:56,199
Speaker 1: like a sleeper hole. And he continues on beyond that

405
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Speaker 1: fatal marker where she dies and succumbs. Maybe he suspected

406
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:04,160
Speaker 1: that they could pick up on that from what we understand, though,

407
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:07,000
Speaker 1: there's no what we refer to. If people will find

408
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:10,240
Speaker 1: your trachea, which is, you know, kind of that rigid

409
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 1: area in the center of your throat. There alongside the trachea,

410
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:16,800
Speaker 1: there are what are referred to as strap muscles, and

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Speaker 1: in asphyxial deaths, many times, particularly if you're using a

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Speaker 1: sea clamp or you're throttling somebody, a lot of pressure

413
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Speaker 1: is applied. You certainly see it with literature strangulations. You'll

414
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Speaker 1: the strap muscles will actually have hemorrhage in them too.

415
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Speaker 1: I don't think that they're seeing that here so it

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Speaker 1: would have to have been a bit more subtle. Her

417
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:38,000
Speaker 1: system is clean as far as narcotics go as well.

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Speaker 1: And I know that some people are probably thinking, well,

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Speaker 1: did they do a GSR on her? A gunshot residue

420
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Speaker 1: on her? Well, guess what, her body's been placed in

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Speaker 1: the bathtub. So that complicates the matter here. Somebody that

422
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Speaker 1: had worked in law enforcement would have been aware of that.

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Speaker 1: And you know, you still can't get past the laundry

424
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 1: that and I find this fascinating. One of the detectives

425
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 1: had gone down and they have like a digital machine,

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Speaker 1: and he was able to determine how long and when

427
00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:13,800
Speaker 1: this thing had been set to be turned on, which

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00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:17,120
Speaker 1: I found absolutely fascinating. I've never heard of law enforcement

429
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 1: actually doing this and could really come up with a

430
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:23,560
Speaker 1: specific time. And I think that that was rather damning evidence.

431
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:27,000
Speaker 1: Who takes time to wash clothes or to do any

432
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:29,600
Speaker 1: of this stuff. You know, if you're going to commit suicide,

433
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:31,840
Speaker 1: like you said, that gives you an idea that you're

434
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:33,640
Speaker 1: moving on with life. You know, I got to clean

435
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 1: my clothes, I gotta do all that. No, and so

436
00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:38,879
Speaker 1: the bathroom is absent of all those you know, little

437
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:42,760
Speaker 1: accouterment that you would have on the floor, say a

438
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:47,359
Speaker 1: a bathtub rug or I don't know, maybe a seat

439
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 1: cover before the toilet or whatever the case might be.

440
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:52,480
Speaker 2: If you were putting a body into a bathtub with

441
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:54,960
Speaker 2: water in it and you maybe lost a little footing

442
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:56,400
Speaker 2: here or there, and you knocked a bunch of water

443
00:27:56,480 --> 00:28:00,359
Speaker 2: on the floor and got those all wet, might take

444
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,840
Speaker 2: them and throw them in the dryer, because my goodness,

445
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:03,920
Speaker 2: they wouldn't.

446
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:06,480
Speaker 1: Want to sour. Yeah, yeah, you don't. You don't want

447
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:08,760
Speaker 1: it to sour. You're going to be doing that well

448
00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 1: if you have, if you have an awareness of trace evidence,

449
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:13,800
Speaker 1: it's also a good place to put it. Maybe wash

450
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:14,600
Speaker 1: it and maybe you drive.

451
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:16,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm just thinking that he got them all wet

452
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:18,359
Speaker 2: when he was putting her in the tub, and he thought, well,

453
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:20,240
Speaker 2: this isn't going to make any sense to the investigators.

454
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 2: Now I got to dry this thing, you know.

455
00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:25,600
Speaker 1: But yeah, and that does that's a conundrum for him.

456
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:28,800
Speaker 1: You know. You get in this environment and maybe you're

457
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:31,240
Speaker 1: trying to think three and four moves ahead and.

458
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 2: You just outthink yourself.

459
00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 1: Yeah.

460
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:35,640
Speaker 2: Really, I think that really bothered me on this Joe

461
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:38,959
Speaker 2: and I. The number of bruises on her chest. Because

462
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 2: when I was looking through the autopsy report provided by

463
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:44,520
Speaker 2: doctor John Howard, we had mentioned that he had been

464
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:48,680
Speaker 2: through an investigation earlier in his career about a number

465
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:52,720
Speaker 2: of cases where there were disputed manner of death rulings

466
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:58,080
Speaker 2: and tea. Yeah, and in one of those cases a

467
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:01,520
Speaker 2: woman Actually kidding when I tell you this, This was

468
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:06,240
Speaker 2: in the investigation that happened in twenty twelve. A woman

469
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 2: was cut in half with defensive wounds and he ruled

470
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:16,240
Speaker 2: her death undetermined. Yeah, that led to a fight between

471
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:21,480
Speaker 2: you know, him and everybody that wants the truth. It's amazing.

472
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 2: But he didn't note the bruising on her chest. And

473
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 2: yet we have a report that she had over thirty

474
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 2: bruises on her chest. She was beaten from head to toe,

475
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,720
Speaker 2: and we're not seeing that in doctor Howard's report.

476
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 1: Right, How could you? And you know, the thing about bruising,

477
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 1: we've talked about this, particularly with child abuse cases as well.

478
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:46,680
Speaker 1: One of the things that we look to do. We

479
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 1: longed to have this data and that's the aging of

480
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 1: the bruises. How long has this been going on because

481
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:54,040
Speaker 1: all of us, you know, you get the greenish colored bruise,

482
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:56,200
Speaker 1: you get the yellow color bruise, you get the dark bruies,

483
00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 1: you get the stuff that's really red, which is the

484
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:03,520
Speaker 1: most recent kind. And you can actually establish a timeline,

485
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:06,320
Speaker 1: you know if if what we believe.

486
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 2: They don't change after you're dead, right, no.

487
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:12,400
Speaker 1: They don't. They're not going to what's referred to in

488
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 1: medical community. It's not a resolving injury. So it's kind

489
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:19,120
Speaker 1: of it's frozen in time, if you will. And that's

490
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:22,160
Speaker 1: that's a beauty thing here. And here's something else that

491
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 1: people might not realize, even after a body has been embalmed,

492
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 1: if there was an anti mortem bruise, because anti mortem

493
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 1: is the only way you're going to get a bruise.

494
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:37,600
Speaker 1: You know, you don't the dead don't bruise, did you know?

495
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 1: We can go back and appreciate those bruises even after embalming,

496
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 1: because you know that that area it's like post ordum lividity.

497
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 1: Once those vessels are broken, it goes out into the

498
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:50,400
Speaker 1: interstitial tissue, all the fatty tissue around there. There's no

499
00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:54,520
Speaker 1: way way to get that out. That's just imagine the

500
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:56,680
Speaker 1: worst stain you've ever seen on a piece of carpet

501
00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:59,000
Speaker 1: and you can't get the stain out. Take that and

502
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:02,240
Speaker 1: think about the the interstetional tissue, which is kind of

503
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:05,240
Speaker 1: the fatty area and the fashion and all that stuff

504
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 1: that's outside of the vessels. Of vessels break, you know,

505
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 1: you think about being impacted, you get a bruise, Well

506
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:15,800
Speaker 1: it only it can only resolve on itself, and if

507
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 1: it freezes in that moment, there's no more metabolism. It's

508
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 1: not going to go away. So you can see these

509
00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 1: and we can actually age these. And apparently there is

510
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:29,720
Speaker 1: a history of him being very aggressive with her over

511
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:33,400
Speaker 1: the years and making her life a living hell, and

512
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:37,120
Speaker 1: that gives you some insight and how that might be

513
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:39,959
Speaker 1: missed by a forensic pathologist. I have no idea, because

514
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:42,560
Speaker 1: it seems as though that that's a salient bit of information.

515
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 2: What was the original Why did he rule undetermined?

516
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:50,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, he left this undetermined, And you know, we have

517
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:56,000
Speaker 1: five manners, and undetermined generally means that you don't have

518
00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:01,680
Speaker 1: enough substance data to move board where you're going to

519
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:04,840
Speaker 1: make that ruling. Now, you can make a ruling on

520
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 1: the cause of death, say intra oral gunshot wound, all right,

521
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:11,520
Speaker 1: that is a cause of death. It's going to and

522
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 1: then there's little things that come along that come along

523
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 1: with that. So you're talking about the hemorrhage and all

524
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 1: the other stuff that as a result of that initial

525
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 1: firing sequence brings about that other trauma that leads to

526
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 1: your death. You can label it as a cause of death.

527
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 1: But many times, and I've seen this happen where you'll

528
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:33,960
Speaker 1: have something that is a violent death and they won't

529
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 1: classify it as either homicide, suicide, or or anything else

530
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 1: even accidental. That this rule is undetermined, and it kind

531
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 1: of freezes that moment. Tom And given the history that

532
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:51,880
Speaker 1: you know, he had been called on the carpet, you

533
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 1: know eighteen times before on eighteen different cases. I won't

534
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:57,560
Speaker 1: say he was called on the carpet eighteen different times,

535
00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 1: but he this investigation that was conducted the sighted eighteen

536
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:05,760
Speaker 1: cases of where things were left undetermined. You know, that

537
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 1: can be problematic for a prosecutor moving forward. You know,

538
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 1: you begin to think about do I want to get

539
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:14,480
Speaker 1: a second opinion at this point in time. And you know, fortunately,

540
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:16,800
Speaker 1: you know, they went back and had other people review

541
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:22,360
Speaker 1: this case and their conclusions were were that this gunshot

542
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 1: wound that Kenny sustained was actually a post mortem gunshot

543
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:30,880
Speaker 1: wound and that, as it turns out, the prosecutor felt

544
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:34,240
Speaker 1: comfortable enough to move forward and think, you know, yeah,

545
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:37,520
Speaker 1: he killed her and then he shot her afterwards to

546
00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:39,200
Speaker 1: make it look like something else.

547
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,880
Speaker 2: That goes beyond the bail Joe. One thing happened during trial.

548
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 2: As we mentioned, it's already been adjudicated before it had

549
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:50,160
Speaker 2: been decided out on bail. Dan Howard had been on

550
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 2: bail since he had been put in jail and bailed

551
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:56,120
Speaker 2: out until trial, right and during the trial they caught

552
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:58,600
Speaker 2: him at the airport trying to leave. He claims he

553
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:00,280
Speaker 2: was just returning a rental car with the end of

554
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 2: his But when you're on trial for murder and things

555
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 2: aren't looking like they're going your way and the police

556
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:07,920
Speaker 2: get you at the airport, they're going to revoke your bail,

557
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:10,560
Speaker 2: which is what they did to keep him here.

558
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:14,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, you talk about you know, you've got a you've

559
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 1: got a prosecutor that's looking at a case like this

560
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:24,319
Speaker 1: and they're thinking, you know, they're in Quarterlane, Idaho. They're

561
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:27,840
Speaker 1: thinking that this guy is definitely a flight risk. You know,

562
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:30,879
Speaker 1: he could he could wind up anywhere, and they don't

563
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 1: want to lose this because this case in and of

564
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 1: itself is so striking. And you've got a guy that's

565
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:41,040
Speaker 1: a former public official that is accused of perpetrating this thing.

566
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:43,839
Speaker 1: They want to make sure that they can keep a

567
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:46,799
Speaker 1: close eye on him as they're moving forward, you know,

568
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 1: and think about it is in the state's trial they

569
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:54,080
Speaker 1: employed actually trauma, a police surgeon is what they're referred

570
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:57,480
Speaker 1: to as that talked about these various grips that the

571
00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:01,160
Speaker 1: police could do. They also brought in blood expert Dave

572
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:04,640
Speaker 1: and brought in what a facsimile of blood and they

573
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:09,399
Speaker 1: demonstrated how much blood should have been present and it's

574
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:12,799
Speaker 1: a fascinating study in this thing. They actually brought in

575
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:18,120
Speaker 1: an IV bag into court with a big area on

576
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:21,800
Speaker 1: the floor where they were draining that volume of blood.

577
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:24,640
Speaker 1: And that's a pain of blood essentially, And they're draining

578
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:27,360
Speaker 1: this on the floor and you can appreciate the size,

579
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:33,319
Speaker 1: the size that just a pint creates with a intra

580
00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 1: oral gunshot wound, you're talking way more than a pint.

581
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:40,440
Speaker 1: You're talking about blood everywhere. And the question would be

582
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:43,760
Speaker 1: and would have to remain in the minds of the jurors,

583
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:47,839
Speaker 1: you know, well, if we know this being demonstrated before us.

584
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:51,120
Speaker 1: Where did all that blood go? And why isn't there

585
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:53,919
Speaker 1: any evidence of it? It's like I always say, Dave,

586
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:59,160
Speaker 1: you know, sometimes sometimes the absence of evidence is just

587
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 1: as critical as the presence of evidence. I'm Joseph Scott

588
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:08,400
Speaker 1: Morgan and this is Body Backs

589
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 2: M