1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,159 Speaker 1: All right, we're scrapping the cute stuff and cutting straight 2 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:07,360 Speaker 1: to the chase. I'm Dessa. This is deeply human. Today 3 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:10,280 Speaker 1: we're talking about drugs and we're already like five and 4 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:17,680 Speaker 1: a half seconds in. Let's go hit it, James, could 5 00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: we speed it up a little. I've just I've just 6 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:22,320 Speaker 1: got like an insane amount of stuff to get to 7 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:26,639 Speaker 1: in this episode. Great, thank you. Hey, come on, man, 8 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 1: don't speed me. You know that always makes me dizzy, 9 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:33,839 Speaker 1: and you know it, okay. I work as a touring 10 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 1: musician where it's not considered unprofessional to drink on the job. 11 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:40,800 Speaker 1: In fact, taking a slug of whiskey on stage often 12 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:44,440 Speaker 1: elicits a round of applause. This business is full of fascinating, 13 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 1: brilliant weirdos, and intoxicants are easy to get and sometimes 14 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:52,040 Speaker 1: hard to avoid. Alexis Stevenson, an author friend of mine, 15 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 1: once told me I'm not a writer, I just drink 16 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:57,960 Speaker 1: a lot about it, which I immediately cribbed for a 17 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 1: song lyric. Sub stant's use and abuse is sort of 18 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:04,680 Speaker 1: baked into the culture. And that's true at the indie 19 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:07,680 Speaker 1: level and for the A listers. To quote the late 20 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 1: great Robin Williams, cocaine is God's way of saying that 21 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 1: you are making too much money. Even being so surrounded 22 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 1: by it, there is still something that's sort of paradoxical 23 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:21,560 Speaker 1: about drugs to me, not just the many hazards of abuse, 24 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 1: but the very idea of drugs. Isn't every organism supposed 25 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:28,559 Speaker 1: to be out here fighting for survival. Wouldn't getting messed 26 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 1: up slower reflexes and make us worse at hunting or 27 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:34,560 Speaker 1: escaping whoever is hunting us? Why would we choose to 28 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:38,319 Speaker 1: regularly impair ourselves? And even if you don't drink or smoke, 29 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 1: odds are you probably had the occasional cup of coffee 30 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 1: or tea. Caffeine is the most commonly used psychoactive drug 31 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:49,280 Speaker 1: in the world, So the question of the day, why 32 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 1: do we use intoxics? My name is I am a 33 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:03,200 Speaker 1: post doctoral research or at the University of Salford near Manchester, 34 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:07,920 Speaker 1: and I study primates and how they have adapted to 35 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 1: eating different foods. Primates includes us, right, yes, that's right, 36 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: we are primates. It turns out that people primates have 37 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 1: a particular genetic advantage when it comes to digesting alcohol 38 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:21,640 Speaker 1: a k A. Ethanol. Marika says We may have first 39 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 1: developed a special interest for alcohol when we transitioned from 40 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:28,639 Speaker 1: being tree dwelling creatures to a more terrestrial lifestyle. When 41 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 1: we started living on the ground, we were more likely 42 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:34,480 Speaker 1: to come across fallen fruit. When fruit becomes overripe and 43 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 1: has a lot of sugar in it, what tends to 44 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:41,400 Speaker 1: happen is that yeasts get in there, and yeast will 45 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:44,760 Speaker 1: start to eat the sugars, and the end product of 46 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:49,520 Speaker 1: that is ethanol, a substance that smells really strongly, right, 47 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:52,720 Speaker 1: so it could be almost like an advertisement. It's like 48 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:56,800 Speaker 1: this this odor plume. It's like, there's sugar here, Eat me. 49 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 1: And we have a particular genetic advantage that allows us 50 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:03,519 Speaker 1: to process that ethanol, meaning we can potentially eat more 51 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 1: energy rich fruit. There's this mutation that humans have, and 52 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 1: what's interesting about this mutation is that it makes our 53 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:14,800 Speaker 1: ethanol metabolism really really efficient, like forty times more efficient. 54 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 1: Early hominids may have been attracted to boozy stuff because 55 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 1: it was a reliable source of energy. Genetic evidence implies 56 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 1: this mutation may have surfaced ten million years ago, though 57 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 1: it could be much longer too, and it's not only 58 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 1: primates who are interested in this fruity, boozy business. The 59 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 1: big story, the most famous story, is that elephants go 60 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 1: for these fermented marilla fruits. And it's a story that's 61 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 1: so widespread, like it's brought up in these psures for Safari's. 62 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 1: So there's a famous liqueur that's made out of marilla fruits. 63 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 1: It's called Amula. Amarula is a lot like Bailey's. I 64 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:57,840 Speaker 1: have toured South Africa, I have headed over ice and 65 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 1: it is awesome. I have all heard the stories of 66 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 1: elephants totally lit up on fermented marula fruit, stumbling around 67 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 1: and making a mess of themselves like a thirty ton 68 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 1: bachelor party with tusks. But humans want to see is 69 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 1: that elephants want to become intoxicated. They want to get 70 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:18,160 Speaker 1: not the sugar, but they want to get the side effects. 71 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:23,480 Speaker 1: And it's like this intentionality aspect. It's really really difficult. 72 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:25,920 Speaker 1: But how do you prove that an animal is trying 73 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 1: to get faded and not just give food. So there's 74 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 1: one to study with um something called an II. It's 75 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:35,560 Speaker 1: a it's a type of lemur from Madagascar. They're they're 76 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 1: so cool looking and they're really cute. Um that well, 77 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:40,160 Speaker 1: it's in the eye to beholder. I think I think 78 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 1: they're cute. Some people don't agree. Wait, hold on google, 79 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:49,839 Speaker 1: Google search. They have very large ears, and I don't 80 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:54,680 Speaker 1: know good about it. I don't like that. But they 81 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:57,240 Speaker 1: have great tails, save these grape bushy tails. And they 82 00:04:57,279 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 1: have this amazing middle finger that's all along and spin 83 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:02,359 Speaker 1: delete that they used to tap on tree trunks with 84 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 1: to find hollow parts. And then when they found a 85 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 1: hollow part, they gouge it and usually there's some kind 86 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:11,520 Speaker 1: of big bug or grub in there that they pull 87 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:15,160 Speaker 1: out with their spindle a finger and then eat. But 88 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 1: they don't just eat bugs. They also eat a lot 89 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:21,360 Speaker 1: of nectar. And the nectar that they consume you can 90 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 1: tell there's ethanol in it just from smelling it. When 91 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:28,799 Speaker 1: researchers gave eye eyes the choice between an alcoholic mixture 92 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 1: and just plain water, they drank twice as much as 93 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:34,600 Speaker 1: the booze. And in a study on elephants and alcohol, 94 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 1: researchers allowed them to drink from a boozy trough then 95 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:42,040 Speaker 1: took detailed notes on their behavior. The things that they 96 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:47,720 Speaker 1: wrote down were like swaying and increased vocalizations and increased aggression, 97 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 1: which it's like, are you looking for those things because 98 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 1: that's what humans do? Or you know, is that really 99 00:05:54,680 --> 00:06:01,359 Speaker 1: how the intoxication manifests while the animals only have access 100 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 1: to alcohol when they come across naturally fermenting sugars or 101 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:07,479 Speaker 1: I guess research teams we are willing to fill up 102 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 1: a trough with booze. But when did people start making 103 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 1: alcohol on purpose? So, I mean this is when we 104 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:17,680 Speaker 1: get into archaeological evidence, which I think it's amazing. It's 105 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:21,159 Speaker 1: just so cool that you can get residues from things 106 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 1: that are thousands of years old and and find evidence 107 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:28,400 Speaker 1: that you know, these were used ferment beverages. So it 108 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 1: goes back like about ten thousand years that we have 109 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:37,799 Speaker 1: evidence of humans intentionally fermenting foods and beverages. Fermentation practices 110 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 1: might go back even further, but that's hard to prove. 111 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 1: Like if a pot was made of wood, it might 112 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 1: not survive millennia to be discovered. Okay, let's transition now 113 00:06:46,880 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 1: from prehistory to the bleeding edge of scientific investigation. My 114 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:09,680 Speaker 1: name is David Natheimer, a psychiatrist and a psycho pharmacologist. 115 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:13,120 Speaker 1: So I studied effects of drugs on the nervous system 116 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 1: and the psychological consequences of those. David is an internationally 117 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 1: recognized veteran in his field. He spent ten years advising 118 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 1: the British government on how to create a rational approach 119 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 1: to drugs and how to minimize their harms, and in 120 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:29,600 Speaker 1: the UK he's also known for controversy. He was dismissed 121 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 1: from his position after arguing that alcohol was more harmful 122 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 1: than a host of other drugs, and to illustrate the 123 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 1: relative dangers of taking the drug ecstasy, he noted that 124 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 1: it was no more dangerous than horseback riding. I'd probably 125 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 1: given more different classes of drugs to human beings and 126 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 1: possibly anyone ever in the history of the world. I mean, 127 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 1: there's almost no class of drugs that I haven't studied 128 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 1: in humans, and humans use a branch of drugs. I 129 00:07:56,200 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 1: mean almost no human doesn't take any doctor, tea, coffee, alcohol, tobacco. 130 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 1: The world's population used and intoxicant or a brain changing 131 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 1: drive for some purpose, generally for benefits. I think, for example, 132 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:13,560 Speaker 1: of the reason you might order a drink on a 133 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:21,840 Speaker 1: first date. Alcohol makes you sociable and makes you convivial 134 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 1: and relaxed in companies enough to take away the natural 135 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 1: social anxiety we all have when we're meeting strangers or 136 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:34,040 Speaker 1: go into parties. Stress is part of human and animal experience. 137 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:36,719 Speaker 1: But then there's a second thing, which is novelty. I mean, 138 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:39,080 Speaker 1: the human brain is a is a novelty seeking or 139 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 1: you know, humans fascinated by new things, which is why 140 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 1: we are so successful in the world. Because we've discovered 141 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 1: new things, and we've remembered them, and we've adapted them 142 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 1: and reinforced them. There's something fundamentally appealing and feeling our 143 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:56,319 Speaker 1: consciousness temporarily transformed into something less familiar than our work 144 00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 1: day minds. Alcohol has been used in military purposes people 145 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:03,959 Speaker 1: before they fight, because the alcohol damnfroms down the favorite bonse. 146 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 1: The reason alcohol is a popular has been so popular 147 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:10,079 Speaker 1: for so many thousands of years is a really good drug. 148 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:13,280 Speaker 1: It gets in fast and gets in the brain fast. 149 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:15,960 Speaker 1: You know, it's reliable in terms of what you get. 150 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:23,360 Speaker 1: The effect is those related. My very first taste of 151 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 1: alcohol was probably a sip of a relative's Manhattan cocktail. 152 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 1: I was maybe eight. It was gross, and I drank 153 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 1: it anyway as a demonstration of my worldliness. Not too 154 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 1: long afterwards, I would have sipped wine from a heavy 155 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:42,959 Speaker 1: metal goblet held by a priest at Catholic mass. Communal 156 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:46,479 Speaker 1: drinking is often a rite of passage socially and sometimes religiously, 157 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 1: and pretty soon I was a sneaky teenager trying to 158 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:53,400 Speaker 1: weasel my way into the liquor cabinet at my friend 159 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:56,320 Speaker 1: Katie's dad's house. We poured a little bit from every 160 00:09:56,320 --> 00:10:00,440 Speaker 1: bottle to create a seriously unfortunate slurry that include, among 161 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 1: other things, mid Doory whiskey and Bailey's Irish Cream. So 162 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 1: how does alcohol actually work? What is it doing to us? 163 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 1: David Nutt explains that it affects several pathways in the brain, 164 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:20,040 Speaker 1: and it mimics a particular neurotransmitter called gabba, and in 165 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:22,440 Speaker 1: humans and all out of primate wearing fact, pretty much 166 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:28,200 Speaker 1: all vertebrates, gabba calms the brain. Another neurotransmitter called glutamate 167 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 1: has the opposite effect. It revs you up. And both 168 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:34,360 Speaker 1: substances are always at play in your brain, and it's 169 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 1: almost like your your brain is walking a tight rope. 170 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:41,360 Speaker 1: Too much glutamate and you become hyper excited, and then 171 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 1: you end up getting anxious or having a seizure, and 172 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:49,840 Speaker 1: so gaba protects you against that, but too much gabba 173 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 1: you fall asleep and then you get eaten by a tiger. 174 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:58,520 Speaker 1: So you've got to get the balance right. When people drink, 175 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:01,559 Speaker 1: it's like they're putting a thumb on the scale, suppressing 176 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:05,600 Speaker 1: anxiety by blunt chemical force. But of course there are 177 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 1: diminishing returns. To share a little poem from the writer 178 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 1: and Total Boss, Dorothy Parker, I like to have a 179 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:15,840 Speaker 1: martini to at the very most, after three, I'm under 180 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:21,840 Speaker 1: the table. After four, I'm under my host. Alcohol impairs 181 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 1: judgment and cognition, and it can have life destroying chronic consequences, 182 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 1: disease and addiction among them. To quote F. Scott Fitzgerald, 183 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:34,199 Speaker 1: First you take a drink, then the drink takes a drink, 184 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 1: Then the drink takes you. Our psycho pharmacologist, David Nutt 185 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:42,079 Speaker 1: has been in the field of substance abuse for almost 186 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:44,319 Speaker 1: forty years. I'll give you an example. One of the 187 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:47,439 Speaker 1: recent patients of mine and his life was to get 188 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:51,560 Speaker 1: up in the morning and he'd get a bus up 189 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 1: the road to the supermarket. He'd buy two liters of 190 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:58,839 Speaker 1: strong cider, which is about two weeks worth of alcohol, 191 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 1: and the just sit there all day and drink that 192 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 1: and he was destroying himself. And that's really quite common. 193 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:07,960 Speaker 1: People drinking alone and or they're using alcohol then as 194 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:10,280 Speaker 1: an anesthetic to deaden the pain of their lives rather 195 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:13,840 Speaker 1: than getting any benefit from it. People suffering from addiction 196 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 1: using toxic ins because it feels like they have to. 197 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 1: Some people cite the dangers of booze in an argument 198 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:26,199 Speaker 1: for abstinence, but David is working on inventing a new drug, 199 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:31,840 Speaker 1: an alternative to alcohol. Alcohol works on multiple neurotransmitter systems. 200 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:34,440 Speaker 1: It's also a poison. You know. It damages your liver, 201 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:38,599 Speaker 1: in your heart, and your bloveless is accential alcohol is 202 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:45,320 Speaker 1: like playing a piano with boxing glove song. David has 203 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:48,280 Speaker 1: a lab team working to design a chemical substance that 204 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 1: can imitate the gabba effective alcohol without wreaking as much 205 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:54,440 Speaker 1: havoc on the rest of the system, like a proper 206 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 1: piodist that plays the song and then goes home. It's 207 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:01,080 Speaker 1: not done yet, but in the meantime he's created and 208 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 1: bottled a prototype that can be concocted from herbs already 209 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:09,720 Speaker 1: on the market as food stuffs. I met him in 210 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:13,480 Speaker 1: a corner bar in West London to try something. This 211 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 1: is a botanical spirit that's it's called Centia, and it's 212 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:20,200 Speaker 1: made of herbs and a combination that will give you 213 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:24,560 Speaker 1: an effect like a low dose of alcohol, like maybe 214 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:28,680 Speaker 1: a glass of wine, without having anything like as much 215 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:39,240 Speaker 1: impact on the rest of your body. Cheers, cheers. The 216 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:41,559 Speaker 1: very first thing you notice about Sentia is the color. 217 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:45,440 Speaker 1: It's a burgundy that very much appealed to the vestigial 218 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:48,320 Speaker 1: goth teenager in me. And it's a water based drink, 219 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 1: but to create some of that like alcohol heat on 220 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:53,440 Speaker 1: the exhale. It has a little bit of pepper in 221 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:56,960 Speaker 1: it Christmas ee, you know, has that sort of clothy 222 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 1: aspects to it. And then in a few moments, I 223 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:04,080 Speaker 1: hope you'll feel that is beginning to have the other 224 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:06,160 Speaker 1: effects of all, not just the mouth effects, but also 225 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 1: the brain effects. I admit that I didn't really feel 226 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 1: a buzz after drinking Centia. I didn't go in very 227 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:15,719 Speaker 1: hard though, because I was afraid to munk up my 228 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:19,760 Speaker 1: interview with this very accomplished science guy. David hopes the 229 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 1: one his new compound hits the market, it might shake 230 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:25,760 Speaker 1: up our whole drinking culture, which is a tall order 231 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 1: because that well runs really deep. We just so happened 232 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:33,120 Speaker 1: to have a cultural historian at this little mixer to 233 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:37,040 Speaker 1: tell us all about it. Angela McShane researches the history 234 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:39,640 Speaker 1: of intoxicans and she has some insight on why we 235 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:42,280 Speaker 1: use them and how they fit into our culture at large. 236 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:45,760 Speaker 1: She recently curated an exhibit on drinking vessels at the 237 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 1: Victoria and Albert Museum. Fantastic to welcome were the Vienna 238 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:53,280 Speaker 1: in London. The Vienna, if you haven't had a chance 239 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 1: to visit, feels policial, marble staircases, super high ceilings and 240 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 1: display cases that are the cleanest glass I have ever seen. 241 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 1: And I know glass is clear, but this was like 242 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 1: clearer than the air around it. It's just it's just 243 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 1: really so clean. Angela's display features rows of drinking vessels 244 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 1: from heavy metal chalices too delicate Venetian glass. The idea 245 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:21,280 Speaker 1: of the drink display was here was much more about 246 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 1: what are the concepts behind drink? In particular, how did 247 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 1: it conn sit with the society. Why did people feel 248 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:31,720 Speaker 1: the need to drink? Why did they often feel the 249 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 1: need to drink too much? For tracks of our history, 250 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:37,760 Speaker 1: drinking was not an off hour's indulgence. It was a 251 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:40,840 Speaker 1: pre wreck for civic engagement. One of the things about 252 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:44,640 Speaker 1: the putting this story is the objects together was to 253 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 1: indicate that drink was at the heart of every part 254 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 1: of the state. If you're going to demonstrate your loyalty 255 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 1: to your lord, whether that's an empress or whether that's 256 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 1: your landlord, the chances are you're going to need to 257 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 1: have a drink with them to prove that. If you're 258 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 1: going to go to church, then you're going to drink wine. 259 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 1: There's also a long history of competitive social drinking, like 260 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 1: way before a beer pong, people were egging each other 261 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 1: on and ribbing one another and real invested in making 262 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 1: sure everyone was keeping pace with one another. There's a 263 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 1: phrase called taking somebody down a peg or two. It's 264 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 1: actually a peg peg tankards. I didn't know the word 265 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 1: tankred before kicking it with Angela at the museum, So 266 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 1: if it's a new term to you, imagine like um, 267 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:32,680 Speaker 1: like a heavy beer mug, but made out of metal 268 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:35,800 Speaker 1: and with a hinged lid on top. When you open it, 269 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 1: what you can see inside is little pegs light little 270 00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:43,920 Speaker 1: pins in the tankard down where the handle is, and 271 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 1: these mark off different measures of drink. And that's because 272 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 1: all of these objects are intended for sharing. And the 273 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 1: idea is that you measure off one peg, two pegs, 274 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 1: and you've agreed with the people that are drinking with 275 00:16:57,440 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 1: you how many pegs are going to drink and off. 276 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 1: Then it can turn into a competition, of course, because 277 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:05,639 Speaker 1: they will say, let's see you drink three pegs in 278 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 1: one go. Let's see you drink right, So so then 279 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:12,399 Speaker 1: it becomes a game. And so to take somebody down 280 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:14,920 Speaker 1: a peg or two is literally to take them down 281 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:20,600 Speaker 1: the pegs in the tankard. This emphasis on drinking together 282 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:24,480 Speaker 1: and ensuring that everyone drinks their share goes back thousands 283 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:29,400 Speaker 1: of years. The phrase in vino veritas is often credited 284 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:32,639 Speaker 1: to Plenty the Elder, a Roman statesman, and it's quoted 285 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 1: by Plato in his text Symposium. You may have heard 286 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:39,240 Speaker 1: it translated to means something like in wine there is truth. 287 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:42,920 Speaker 1: But what it means is when you read it within 288 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:47,919 Speaker 1: the context of his book The Symposium, that because people 289 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:50,960 Speaker 1: will say things they wouldn't have said if they weren't drunk, 290 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:56,119 Speaker 1: everybody has to be drunk together, and what happens in 291 00:17:56,160 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 1: the room stays in the room. Obviously, many people choose 292 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 1: not to drink for personal reasons, health concerns, or to 293 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:09,120 Speaker 1: abide by the mandates of their faith. Alcohol, for example, 294 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:15,160 Speaker 1: is forbidden in Islam. Okay, So in present day Iran, 295 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 1: what is the what is the legal position on intoxican 296 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 1: irnly is quite easy. Everything is illegal, even beyond intoxication. 297 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 1: You know, sexual relationship before marriage are illegal. So every 298 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 1: and everything you can think about that is you know, 299 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:35,080 Speaker 1: you know, even fouly cool it's is illegal. So I'm 300 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:40,920 Speaker 1: Mazzi Mazzi for friends and Enemies. I am an academic 301 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:43,720 Speaker 1: at the University of Exeter, and I've been working on 302 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:47,800 Speaker 1: things related to how people intoxicate themselves and why they 303 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 1: do so in in the Midleast in particular. Mazi grew 304 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:54,880 Speaker 1: up in Iran, then moved to Italy, but has returned 305 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:58,439 Speaker 1: to Iran for research trips. He stresses that the laws 306 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:01,320 Speaker 1: on the books aren't the laws on the boulevard. Total 307 00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:04,840 Speaker 1: prohibition is not the reality of life in Iran. Life 308 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:09,560 Speaker 1: under the law. It's far more ambiguous and ambivalent. Because 309 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 1: everything is prohibited in a way, everything is also allowed, 310 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:16,960 Speaker 1: So people really kind of do all sorts of stuff 311 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:19,520 Speaker 1: I mean, I've done things that I wouldn't do it elsewhere. 312 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:25,440 Speaker 1: It's easier to order, you know, a little bag of 313 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:31,400 Speaker 1: math or any other drugs in Tehran than toward the pizza, 314 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:37,360 Speaker 1: and pizza is pretty easy to order. The total ban 315 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:41,159 Speaker 1: on drugs and the serious consequences for getting caught change 316 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:45,640 Speaker 1: the social aspect of consuming drugs. Drinkers, for example, can't 317 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:48,720 Speaker 1: simply lounge and linger in a bar, and they're more 318 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 1: likely to drink spirits than beer or wine because more 319 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:54,439 Speaker 1: potent drinks are easier to transport and self for profit. 320 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 1: The first twenty minutes of a drinking session are very 321 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:06,159 Speaker 1: different from whatever else you've seen elsewhere. So there is 322 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 1: a person who is in charge of pouring whatever alcoholic 323 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:14,040 Speaker 1: drink is available. They call him soggy or you know, 324 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:17,159 Speaker 1: men or women could be so there is also the 325 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:20,879 Speaker 1: name for dealer, by the way, and he puts the 326 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:24,399 Speaker 1: drink for everyone, making sure that everyone drinks, and people 327 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:27,399 Speaker 1: tend to drink in the go, not seeping, you know, 328 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:34,520 Speaker 1: Russian way, But gentlemen, everyone's drunk. Usually, prohibition laws are 329 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:37,360 Speaker 1: so commonly broken by so many people that it would 330 00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:40,800 Speaker 1: be outlandish for authorities to even try to penalize everyone 331 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:45,639 Speaker 1: who did so. The law enforcement do what they do 332 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:50,440 Speaker 1: basically everywhere they can choose when they need to intervene, 333 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:54,480 Speaker 1: but Mazzi says they often do so with an ulterior motive. 334 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 1: In Iran and around the world, drug violations provide the 335 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:01,639 Speaker 1: state with a pretel next to intervene in the lives 336 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:04,680 Speaker 1: of people who have been flagged as risky or problematic 337 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:09,479 Speaker 1: for other reasons. Consider, for example, the seventeenth century Ottoman 338 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:14,120 Speaker 1: crackdown on coffee houses. Coffee was an exotic substance when 339 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 1: it arrived, you know, in the Ottoman Empire. The whole 340 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:22,199 Speaker 1: culture of coffee drinking started around this new substance, you know. 341 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 1: And because they were also displaces, the coffee houses, where 342 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:29,880 Speaker 1: people would meet and you know, discuss, there were places 343 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 1: which were seen as you know, definitely not conventional, but 344 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 1: also potentially dangerous in political terms, according to Mazi and 345 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:41,200 Speaker 1: many of his colleagues. You know, in academia, you would 346 00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:44,399 Speaker 1: struggle to find anyone who supports prohibition because you know, 347 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:47,960 Speaker 1: if you study drugs and addiction, there is no way 348 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:51,919 Speaker 1: you can say that the current regime of drug prohibition works. 349 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:56,520 Speaker 1: Your voice changes when you talk about prohibition, like you 350 00:21:56,640 --> 00:22:00,439 Speaker 1: just sound hell aboard? Is it just because it's just 351 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:04,160 Speaker 1: an abject failure and there's nothing interesting to say about it. Yeah, 352 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:08,840 Speaker 1: And so it's funny that prohibition has been a total 353 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:17,120 Speaker 1: failure in Iran, you know. Equally as a really little kid, 354 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:20,719 Speaker 1: I remember seeing a public service announcement on TV, a 355 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:24,760 Speaker 1: warning about the grave dangers of marijuana, which was prohibited 356 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:27,880 Speaker 1: then across the US. I ran from the living room 357 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:31,320 Speaker 1: television set to the kitchen and then back again, and 358 00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:34,800 Speaker 1: found my fears confirmed. The glass object on the kitchen 359 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:38,520 Speaker 1: shelf was in fact a bomb, which meant that one 360 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:41,840 Speaker 1: or maybe both of my parents was a drug user. 361 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:45,520 Speaker 1: I ended up in tears on my dad's lap. He 362 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 1: admitted the bomb was his and tried to soothe me 363 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:51,240 Speaker 1: with a hug and some patient words. He asked if 364 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:54,359 Speaker 1: I thought of him differently, and I told him yes, 365 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:58,119 Speaker 1: according to the after school TV programming, he was a 366 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:01,880 Speaker 1: moral hazard and a total deviance. But being my dad, 367 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:04,679 Speaker 1: he also made the rules about bedtime and dinner menus, 368 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:06,520 Speaker 1: so I didn't really have a light to stand on. 369 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:11,680 Speaker 1: Prohibition might not be too effective, but it does say 370 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 1: something about the intensity of our motivation to use intoxicans. 371 00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:18,920 Speaker 1: People around the world are willing to risk serious consequences 372 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:21,360 Speaker 1: to get drunk or high. Even if how we use 373 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:23,960 Speaker 1: them looks different, it seems like we've got a really 374 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 1: strong universal Why then those drives are varied. When you're 375 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:31,240 Speaker 1: living Iran, a lot of people have the feeling that 376 00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:36,200 Speaker 1: they are basically living in isolation from everything for everything 377 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:39,399 Speaker 1: that is happening in the world, and that's interesting, you know, 378 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:44,000 Speaker 1: they feel that they're losing out, and so drugs in 379 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:47,880 Speaker 1: a way project you in a dimension which is still yours, 380 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 1: you know if they don't, and dimension of your everyday life. 381 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:55,360 Speaker 1: But you're connected, like the people are being high in California, 382 00:23:55,480 --> 00:24:01,560 Speaker 1: you're being high in Tehran. It's a mimicking act. We 383 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,639 Speaker 1: use drugs to feel connected to each other. From communion 384 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:08,680 Speaker 1: cup to kegstand we all do use drugs. We do 385 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:14,560 Speaker 1: because fundamentally we try to feel better in the world. 386 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:17,600 Speaker 1: Some of them are legal, some of them are illegal, 387 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:20,920 Speaker 1: Some of them are prescribed by you know, our pharmacists, 388 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:24,360 Speaker 1: and some you know that may be prescribed by our dealers. 389 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 1: We use intoxicans to blunt our anxieties, to demonstrate our allegiances. 390 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 1: We use them as part of our ceremonies and to 391 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:35,240 Speaker 1: compete and connect with one another. And of course, the 392 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:38,920 Speaker 1: particular in toxicans we choose can also send messages about 393 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 1: how we'd like to be perceived. Like if a woman 394 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:44,600 Speaker 1: walks into a bar and shoots a double shot of tequila, 395 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:47,879 Speaker 1: that just reads differently than if she asks for a 396 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:52,440 Speaker 1: glass of rose or a corps like tall Boy champagne 397 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 1: is for celebrating Long Island ice teas, or for utility. 398 00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:59,679 Speaker 1: Some Irish whiskeys are shunned by Catholics and some shunned 399 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:04,880 Speaker 1: by contestants. Smoking a Virginia slim isn't the same thing 400 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:09,960 Speaker 1: as smoking a Marlborough red or a Cuban cigar, And 401 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:15,720 Speaker 1: our appetite for intoxicants is intense. Listener, I don't relish 402 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:18,159 Speaker 1: relaying this part of the story, but that slurry of 403 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:22,359 Speaker 1: Katie's dad's booze. It curdled like maybe a product of 404 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 1: mixing red wine and dairy, and it had to be 405 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:30,840 Speaker 1: strained through a sock before drinking. That is so gross, 406 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:35,159 Speaker 1: That is so embarrassing. But I remember that teenage drive 407 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 1: to feel different, that novelty seeking, thrill, hungry urge to 408 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:44,560 Speaker 1: change the settings in my head. Intoxicants might not help 409 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:48,720 Speaker 1: us hunt or escape being hunted, but the desire for them. 410 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:53,159 Speaker 1: This is deeply human. I don't usually do that, and 411 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:55,400 Speaker 1: like say the name of the show as a style thing, 412 00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:57,879 Speaker 1: but that's like just this one time. I'm just asking 413 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:02,920 Speaker 1: for a past point. Whatever is in your cup, tea, coffee, 414 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:05,879 Speaker 1: tava or water from the tap. I am lifting a 415 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:09,280 Speaker 1: glass in your general direction in this recording studio. Have fun, 416 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:18,119 Speaker 1: be careful, and I'll see you next question. Deeply Human 417 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:21,200 Speaker 1: is a BBC World Service and American Public media co 418 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:24,879 Speaker 1: production with I Heart Media, and it's hosted by Mesa. 419 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:28,440 Speaker 1: Find me online at Dessa on Instagram and Dessa Darling 420 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:35,600 Speaker 1: on Twitter. In Western convention, monogamy is baked into the 421 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:40,400 Speaker 1: mainstream concept of love and romance. You meet, you catch feelings, 422 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:43,000 Speaker 1: you share a plate of pasta, and discovery you're eating 423 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 1: the same noodle, you commit and you've stopped seeing other 424 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:51,040 Speaker 1: people next time. On deeply Human, we're asking why are 425 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:53,240 Speaker 1: you supposed to love only one person at a time.