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Speaker 1: The Michael Barry Show. We started the Saturday podcast as

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Speaker 1: a bonus podcast, but also as a way to well

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Speaker 1: We got a lot of email from listeners who said,

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Speaker 1: I wish you were on on Saturday, and you know what,

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Speaker 1: I would love to do more shows. I think Ramon

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Speaker 1: and Chad and Jim and the team would probably punch

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Speaker 1: me in the face for saying that, but.

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Speaker 2: I would.

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Speaker 1: But I also recognize that by taking two days off,

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Speaker 1: we're fresher and do the show better. That's just a fact.

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Speaker 1: But what we decided to do on our Saturday shows wells.

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Speaker 1: During the course of the week, we're constantly sending things

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Speaker 1: back and forth to each other, Hey have you heard this?

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Speaker 1: Is there anything from this speech that we can use

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Speaker 1: on the show? And we go back to a series

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Speaker 1: of a very very influential things in our lives to

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Speaker 1: our intellectual development, and one of the most common is

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Speaker 1: Thomas soul He is an economist. He started life as

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Speaker 1: a very very left wing, practically a communist, went to

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Speaker 1: the University of Chicago. He studied under Milton Friedman, but

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Speaker 1: as he says, Friedman didn't change his outlook. It wasn't

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Speaker 1: until he left there and went to the Department of Labor,

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Speaker 1: a government job, and they were pushing for a minimum

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Speaker 1: wage hike, and he was one of the people crunching

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Speaker 1: the data. And at the end of it, this very liberal,

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Speaker 1: socialist leaning economist, Thomas soul Young in his career, said, hey,

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Speaker 1: the data is showing me that increasing the minimum wage

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Speaker 1: hurts the working poor because those positions will just be cut.

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Speaker 1: And his bosses at the Department of Labor, who were

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Speaker 1: pushing for a minimum wage increase, said, this isn't about

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Speaker 1: helping the working poor. It's a political issue. It's not

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Speaker 1: a quality of life issue. We're not doing it for them,

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Speaker 1: We just want them to support it. And it changed

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Speaker 1: everything for him. He started questioning everything. He has become

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Speaker 1: on more than just economics. He has become one of

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Speaker 1: the greatest social commentators of all time. He is the

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Speaker 1: leading social commentator today. And he happens to be a

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Speaker 1: black man.

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Speaker 3: Pah.

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Speaker 1: You would think that his virtues would be extolled, that

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Speaker 1: they would be building monuments to him. Quite the opposite.

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Speaker 1: The black intelligensia hates him because he speaks of opportunity

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Speaker 1: and self reliance and accountability and consequences and good descis

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Speaker 1: vision making not victimhood. He has several very good books.

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Speaker 1: You can get them on tape as well. One of

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Speaker 1: the most influential to me was called Basic Economics, and

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Speaker 1: he drills he makes it very simple. He drills down

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Speaker 1: in some deep concepts, but he simplifies it. He also

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Speaker 1: wrote one called Black Rednecks and White Liberals, which I

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Speaker 1: highly commend. He argues that certain behavioral patterns in what

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Speaker 1: we would call modern black culture as it's defined, are

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Speaker 1: rooted in the cracker culture of early white immigrants from

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Speaker 1: the border regions of Great Britain like Scotland, Northern Ireland,

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Speaker 1: folks who settled in the American South. And he suggests

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Speaker 1: that some aspects of this culture, like honor and defiance,

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Speaker 1: influenced the cultural development in ways that still affect what

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Speaker 1: are called the black communities today. So I want to

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Speaker 1: play for you audio of Thomas Soul making the case

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Speaker 1: that people like Barack Obama and Neil de grasse Tyson

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Speaker 1: pose a threat to America. You don't have to agree

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Speaker 1: with the conclusion, just give it an open minded listen.

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Speaker 4: The vision of the annoying it self. Congratulations is a

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Speaker 4: basic for social policy. I mean you positive here that

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Speaker 4: their group of self anointed elitists who are responsible for

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Speaker 4: what in.

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Speaker 5: America, well, for much of the social policy of the

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Speaker 5: past thirty years, and for the disastrous consequences that have

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Speaker 5: follow from those policies.

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Speaker 2: And who are these people?

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Speaker 5: Well, there'll be people in the media, in the academic world,

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Speaker 5: and in politics, particularly those who believe that third parties

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Speaker 5: can make better decisions than people can make for those

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Speaker 5: and particularly when they are those third parties. I think

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Speaker 5: most people who have not been in the academic world

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Speaker 5: would have to see the academics in action to realize

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Speaker 5: how deeply they believe this. I can remember a conference

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Speaker 5: at Middlebury College some years ago and which they were

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Speaker 5: laying out these plans for how they would manipulate the

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Speaker 5: poor in order to get them to do this, to

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Speaker 5: do that, to do the other than I said, who

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Speaker 5: are we to be running these people's lives? And they

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Speaker 5: looked at me as if I were a man from

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Speaker 5: Mars speaking the language they had never heard before.

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Speaker 4: Do you therefore believe, I mean this is almost you know,

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Speaker 4: university kind of debate. Do you therefore believe that the

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Speaker 4: government has no responsibility for those less fortunate than ourselves?

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Speaker 4: If free enterprise, they cannot find a place in the

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Speaker 4: market economy.

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Speaker 5: Well, there are many things the government can do. I

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Speaker 5: think the most important thing they can do is maintain

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Speaker 5: a framework of law in which people do, in fact

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Speaker 5: find jobs and find progress. After all, this is not

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Speaker 5: a hypothetical question is if this situation has never come

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Speaker 5: up before. I mean, you look up the entire history

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Speaker 5: of the United States, I mean the United States that

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Speaker 5: I've become a prosperous country only after the New Deal.

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Speaker 5: I mean history didn't begin in the nineteen sixties or

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Speaker 5: even in the nineteen thirties.

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Speaker 3: And you look at the history of blocks.

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Speaker 5: For that matter, you know that the blocks have come

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Speaker 5: a very long way long before the first civil rights

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Speaker 5: law was passed in nineteen in the nineteen sixties. Uh.

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Speaker 5: In fact, in the five years prior to the Civil

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Speaker 5: Rights Act of nineteen sixty four, blocks rose into professional

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Speaker 5: and similar occupations to a greater extent than in the

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Speaker 5: five years afterwards.

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Speaker 4: So you would have even if you were if you

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Speaker 4: look back now mm as an economist and in and

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Speaker 4: in some ways as a historian, at the civil rights

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Speaker 4: legislation that was passed in sixty four sixty five and

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Speaker 4: through the great society you and in terms of voting

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Speaker 4: rights as well, you would say those laws, those civil

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Speaker 4: rights laws were unnecessary in counterproduction.

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Speaker 5: Oh no, no, there and so oh you had to

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Speaker 5: get rid of the Jim Crow system. You had to

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Speaker 5: have throw a voter, had to have voting rights, and

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Speaker 5: so on. But I remember back in nineteen sixty four

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Speaker 5: writing to a friend, as the Civil Rights Act of

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Speaker 5: sixty four was being bought out in Congress, that I

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Speaker 5: hope this law would pass with absolutely no crippling amendments

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Speaker 5: exactly as it was written, because, among other some good

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Speaker 5: things in it. But was one reason. But the other

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Speaker 5: reason was that I was convinced that they would not

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Speaker 5: have the effect that they thought it would have. And

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Speaker 5: that one and what I assumed very incorrectly was that

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Speaker 5: once people saw that, yes, this would break down the

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Speaker 5: Jim Crow system, it would not cause any dramatic improvement

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Speaker 5: in the economic condition of black people, you know, and

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Speaker 5: that people would then say, no, now we have to

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Speaker 5: turn to something else in order to do that. And

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Speaker 5: I was completely wrong about that that when it didn't

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Speaker 5: produce that result, they said, well, it just shows we

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Speaker 5: need more of the same, which is the old argument

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Speaker 5: you know, we tried policy X and it absolutely goes nowhere.

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Speaker 5: We need stronger policy X.

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Speaker 4: This argument has been I'm sure voice to you before

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Speaker 4: Clarence Thomas benefited from affirmative acts.

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Speaker 2: So Clairece Thomas says, so, I bet no, he doesn't.

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Speaker 3: No, he does not.

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Speaker 2: Clarence Thomas does.

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Speaker 4: Not say that that affirmative action programs helped him in

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Speaker 4: terms of the educational opportunity.

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Speaker 3: He never said it to me.

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Speaker 2: I believe he. Do you think he would say no

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Speaker 2: to that question?

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Speaker 3: He might.

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Speaker 5: Well, for one thing, I for one thing. My understanding,

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Speaker 5: and I haven't researched it. My understanding is that he

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Speaker 5: was admitted to college the year before they began their

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Speaker 5: affirmative action program. I don't know and what and what

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Speaker 5: and and what the program did was to delegitimize what

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Speaker 5: he had done.

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Speaker 3: That he had he was a man with outstanding the

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Speaker 3: academic record.

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Speaker 5: Uh. And he and he goes out into the job

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Speaker 5: market and people and despite.

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Speaker 2: This they look at him and they say, you got

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Speaker 2: there only because of affirmative action, right, because.

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Speaker 5: Of your own marriage, where ordinarily someone with that kind

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Speaker 5: of record you look at saying this guy is really

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Speaker 5: a world beater. But no, and I've seen that in

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Speaker 5: my own life. I'm old enough that I can rive

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Speaker 5: going through the whole metamorphous.

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Speaker 2: And what have you seen in your own life?

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Speaker 3: All right?

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Speaker 5: When I was in the in the Marine Corps, and

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Speaker 5: then this and during the Korean War, I was trained

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Speaker 5: as a photographer, and I was signed to Campus U

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Speaker 5: in North Carolina, where a great many of Southerners. When

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Speaker 5: the Marine Corps white Southerners, and in that barracks, whenever

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Speaker 5: somebody had a photographic problem, This camera wasn't working, these

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Speaker 5: pictures didn't come out right, and so forth they would

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Speaker 5: come to me. I was astonished. The most biggest redneck

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Speaker 5: in the barracks would come to me.

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Speaker 2: They asked me, and there were all these white photographers

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Speaker 2: in my camera.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, you see why is this? And I finally figured

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Speaker 5: it out. They said, you know, if this guy is

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Speaker 5: black and he's a photographer, he must be some photographer.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 5: Now, When I started teaching in the night early nineteen

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Speaker 5: sixties at the Douglas College, I read up on all

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Speaker 5: this stuff about new teachers, you seeing how it's hard

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Speaker 5: to get the respect of the students, particularly if you're

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Speaker 5: not much older than they are, and I looked younger

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Speaker 5: than I was, and so I worried about that, you see.

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Speaker 3: And I walked in that room in.

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Speaker 5: The first day and it was instant respect, and you know,

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Speaker 5: it sort of took me aback and I realized, no, no,

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Speaker 5: they're there. They're saying, look this guy, I was the

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Speaker 5: first black male to teach there. This guy must be

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Speaker 5: something else. Go forward now ten years. By this time,

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Speaker 5: I've completed my degree, I've written my books, journal like

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Speaker 5: all the whole thing. I'm now teaching at UCLA, and

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Speaker 5: students will come up to me at the end of

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Speaker 5: the term and they'll say how much they like the

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Speaker 5: course and all that, and somewhere in the course of that,

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Speaker 5: they'll be a slip up and they'll let it, let

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Speaker 5: it out that they were quite surprised that the course

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Speaker 5: was as good as it was. And one one of

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Speaker 5: the things that struck me even before the end of

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Speaker 5: the term, one kid cheme to me one day and

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Speaker 5: he had a passage in the book he was having

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Speaker 5: trouble with, and he said, can you tell me what

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Speaker 5: this means. I had explained to him what that passage meant.

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Speaker 5: He said, are you sure? And I said, yes, I

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Speaker 5: wrote the textbook and he looked on the front and

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Speaker 5: he's really embarrassed. But this is what affirmative action has done,

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Speaker 5: you see.

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Speaker 4: So you can't see any positive I don't doubtative action.

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Speaker 4: I don't doubt that, in fact, it increased the pool,

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Speaker 4: as you know, as frequently used the expression of what

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Speaker 4: ammorive action can do is increase the pool of I

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Speaker 4: don't know what.

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Speaker 5: That means, and I've never had anybody explain it to me.

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Speaker 5: I've studied affirmative action in this country, in India and Malaysia,

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Speaker 5: you know, in Sri Lanka, in Nigeria they have some

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Speaker 5: version of it.

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Speaker 3: In the Israel.

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean, explain it as it was explained to me.

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Speaker 2: It is the notion of it.

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Speaker 4: Let's a new oralan missions committee at Harvard, and you're

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Speaker 4: going to choose so many people. You're going to let

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Speaker 4: people in for a variety of reasons. One is sheer

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Speaker 4: academic merit. They scored sixteen hundred on their college boards.

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Speaker 4: That's a good entry. They've got a brilliant academic and

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Speaker 4: athletic background, and they happen to be a virtual.

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Speaker 2: So violent player.

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Speaker 4: And the violin player helps or Let's say they come

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Speaker 4: from Nevada.

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Speaker 2: They don't have a lot of Nevada at Harvard.

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Speaker 4: And let's also say that they are come from Sri Lanka.

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Speaker 2: They don't have many people from Sri Lanka there.

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Speaker 4: And let's also say that they also are African American,

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Speaker 4: and that that ought to be a factor.

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Speaker 2: In choosing from that pool. Maybe that's one of the generations, because.

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Speaker 4: Because diversity of a student body is a healthy factor.

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Speaker 5: I'm fascinated with the extent of which words were conditioned

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Speaker 5: to react like Pavlov's dog to words.

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Speaker 3: I hear diversity.

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Speaker 2: Someone was asking that, don't make me look.

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Speaker 3: Someone today who was.

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Speaker 5: A trustee of a college was saying that they were

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Speaker 5: going to pick it a new college professor. I said,

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Speaker 5: what you should do is have a stopwatch there and

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Speaker 5: just count how long it is till each of the

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Speaker 5: contestants says the word diversity. And the guy who says that,

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Speaker 5: you know, he's thirty five minutes into the interview, and

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Speaker 5: the other guy who says that you know, the first sentence,

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Speaker 5: the guy who said takes thirty five minutes, he should

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Speaker 5: be at the top of the list. The guy who

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Speaker 5: said that the first sensing should be at the bottom because.

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Speaker 2: The question what's wrong with diversity? I don't get the point.

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Speaker 5: My point is that this is a word that has

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Speaker 5: become magic. What does it mean, if anything? Are you

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Speaker 5: saying to me that all black people are alike? Therefore

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Speaker 5: you've got to mix and match by race. It's not

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Speaker 5: diverse unless it's diverse along the I want to.

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Speaker 2: Sell you what I'm saying.

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Speaker 4: I'm saying that I think there would be different to

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Speaker 4: have people of different kinds of experiment. Instance, uh and

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Speaker 4: me mentioned Sri Lanka, didn't we and you know, and

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Speaker 4: to be interesting to have some people with an Asian back. Wait, wait,

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Speaker 4: an Asian back in African American people that come from

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Speaker 4: uh Fifth Avenue and Park Avenue as well as from Henderson,

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Speaker 4: North Carolina. All of that would make a healthy student body.

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Speaker 4: I don't think everybody ought to come from the sons

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Speaker 4: of Harvard.

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Speaker 5: Graduates daughters, but because they're not always the best. But

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Speaker 5: all right, that all even I think that that doesn't

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Speaker 5: make it. I slipped my point there for for a minute.

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Speaker 4: Well, I mean, you have thought long and hard about this,

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Speaker 4: and much longer than I have, and.

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Speaker 3: You bring it up. But that's the theory.

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Speaker 5: That's the theory, and unfortunately the facts are quite different.

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Speaker 5: It plays like Harvard and Stanford and Cornel.

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Speaker 3: What you have.

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Speaker 5: What you have is the black son of a black doctor, right,

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Speaker 5: who lived in the same neighborhood with the white son

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Speaker 5: of the white doctor. And now you're giving me diversity

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Speaker 5: because these two people.

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Speaker 2: I'm not necessarily they have scholarships that they offered to kids.

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Speaker 5: But now we're getting wait from the whole racial thing.

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Speaker 5: I'm saying, the racial thing has been used as a

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Speaker 5: proxy for something that is not a proxy for because

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Speaker 5: the vast majority of blacks who go to places like

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Speaker 5: Harvard and Cornell and Stanford are not blacks from the ghetto.

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Speaker 5: Those are blacks from out there. You know, they're from Malibu.

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Speaker 5: You know, they're from Pacific Palisades. Uh, they're from and

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Speaker 5: so for and they're from the very same neighborhoods. They're

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Speaker 5: from the very same neighborhoods as the whites are there

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Speaker 5: and so and so. Now you call it diversitly because

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Speaker 5: you see something with the naked elly. Right.

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Speaker 4: Let me make a couple of the points because I'm

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Speaker 4: gonna wave ahead of myself here. Uh, do you think

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Speaker 4: that the era of these uh social engineers from whatever

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Speaker 4: establishment they come from, media, academia, government, is over?

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Speaker 5: No, I wish it were. I think they're gonna go underground.

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Speaker 5: They're gonna hunker down and and when when the wait,

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Speaker 5: wait out the storm to change. Absolutely, And we have

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Speaker 5: people in the room, and then among among the Republicans,

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Speaker 5: for example, who were I said, these things like this

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Speaker 5: are like crab grass. You've got to root it out,

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Speaker 5: not cut back on the appropriations for the national and downward.

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Speaker 3: You're not gonna get rid of it.

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Speaker 4: You don't want to gut Come on, I mean you

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Speaker 4: clearly don't want to gut them, and.

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Speaker 3: I do not.

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Speaker 5: I want to destroy it entirely. You I don't want

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Speaker 5: to gut it. That's right, because it's like.

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Speaker 2: Get public television as well.

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Speaker 3: You got it.

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Speaker 2: But uh well you'll never appear on the nail again,

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Speaker 2: thank you very much.

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Speaker 3: I never have anywhere. Oh no. But it's like crabgrass.

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Speaker 5: These people are gonna hunker down and then they'll they'll

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Speaker 5: wait for the change the political thing. And I say,

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Speaker 5: these guys are like somebody who's putting the lawn more

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Speaker 5: over crab grass.

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Speaker 2: But these guys. You seem to be saying, are everywhere

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Speaker 2: these guys. I mean, but you're not talking about just

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Speaker 2: bureaucrash you were saying.

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Speaker 4: I mean, you're saying, it's the New York Times, it's CBO,

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Speaker 4: it's Harvard University, and the faculty, u cl A faculty,

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Speaker 4: the Stanford faculty, all of them.

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Speaker 3: Oh. Absolutely.

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Speaker 4: You know what amazes me is that you buy into

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Speaker 4: these conspiracies like this.

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Speaker 2: It's conspiracy. No, not conspiras at all.

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Speaker 3: No.

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Speaker 4: People, these people, people somehow have come to a power

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Speaker 4: in the establishment, have come to this like minded idea.

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Speaker 2: About Well, that's happening many times and history appointed.

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Speaker 3: And I don't believe for a minute. I think people

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Speaker 3: have harbored me.

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Speaker 5: Wholly independently and sealed off from people from Stanford. And

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Speaker 5: they go into those committee rooms, they will come out

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Speaker 5: with the same kinds of policies because they went in

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Speaker 5: with the same assumption.

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Speaker 4: And because their experiences, you suggest, are essentially the same.

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Speaker 3: Probably, well, I don't know about that. I don't know

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Speaker 3: about that.

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Speaker 2: Then why did they come to the same conclusion?

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Speaker 3: Oh, of course they operate under the same assumptions, And.

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Speaker 2: Why do they have the same assumptions.

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Speaker 3: For reasons which you can go back into the history.

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Speaker 2: Come on, why do they have to have a something

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Speaker 2: women even go back in history.

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Speaker 5: Uh, this has been a set of assumptions that have

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Speaker 5: been very popular among intellectuals. What has happened in our

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Speaker 5: time is that intellectuals have been taken much more seriously

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Speaker 5: since the sixties than they were before. I think we're

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Speaker 5: suffering the consequences of it. It's not the first time

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Speaker 5: in history of intellectuals have been taken seriously and disasters.

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Speaker 2: So we shouldn't have taken Milton Friedman seriously.

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Speaker 3: Milton Friedman as a very this.

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Speaker 4: Game and say, well, no, we shouldn't take intellectual seriously then,

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Speaker 4: except those happen to think.

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Speaker 5: By seriously, I mean in the sense I should have

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Speaker 5: clarified this in the sense that they are exempted from

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Speaker 5: the test of facts.

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Speaker 3: Did it work?

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Speaker 5: When I hear people come on the end and say

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Speaker 5: these lofty things, I say to myself, show me where

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Speaker 5: we've ever gotten better off listening to people like this?

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Speaker 5: All right, I see these psychologists coming on to how

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Speaker 5: you raise your children? I said, how are children better today?

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Speaker 5: Now that we've been listening to these people for thirty years.

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Speaker 5: Are they happier, are they more learned? You know, testcores

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Speaker 5: go down, for neural disease goes up, suicide rates go up,

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Speaker 5: And what way are we better off for having listened

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Speaker 5: to them?

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Speaker 4: But it's seems to me that you do engage a

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Speaker 4: little bit in group dismissal, that you in a sense.

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Speaker 2: Wave your hand and anybody saying.

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Speaker 4: That that each of these kinds of institutions or that

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Speaker 4: there is not a group think in the institution.

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Speaker 5: You tell me that the group think. Someone that did

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Speaker 5: a survey and standard a couple of years ago, they

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Speaker 5: found whole departments in which there was not one Republican.

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Speaker 6: Why why is it that on the Washington I mean,

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Speaker 6: look at the editorial people are right the editorials and

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Speaker 6: under the bylines or for the paper of the Washington Post,

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Speaker 6: you've got George Will there. And certainly what George Will

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Speaker 6: says is different from what David brother says. Certainly what

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Speaker 6: Bill Sapphire says is quite different from what Tom Friedman says,

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Speaker 6: from what absolutely Marine Dowd thinks.

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Speaker 5: Absolutely, but there of the New York Times, that's that's

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Speaker 5: very true.

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Speaker 3: But the fact is that they are the.

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Speaker 5: Exceptions they are the exceptions, as Milton Freeman is exceptions.

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Speaker 4: And only good guys are the exception and meaning getting

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Speaker 4: theer free.

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Speaker 3: But you use the word dismissal.

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Speaker 5: That's one of the words I latch onto in the

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Speaker 5: chapter about the vocabulary of the annointed, that whenever you

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Speaker 5: reach an that is different from from what they have,

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Speaker 5: they say you've dismissed it. You can spend three volumes

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Speaker 5: analyzing it, and at the end you're going the thing

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Speaker 5: is wrong, Oh, you dismissed it.

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