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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The RCMP are now considering

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Speaker 1: Cam McCloud and Briar Shmagelski as suspects. Nineteen year old

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Speaker 1: Cam McCloud and eighteen year old Briar sh mcgelski were

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Speaker 1: feared to be missing after their camper was discovered torched

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Speaker 1: on the side of a highway in Canada on Thursday,

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Speaker 1: an unidentified burned body nearby. A worried Briar sh mcgelski's

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Speaker 1: father spoke to check TV two days ago. They're just

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Speaker 1: kids on an adventure, like they're good boys. Those two

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Speaker 1: boys are still out there, Go find them. The pair

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Speaker 1: of disappeared his days after twenty four year old American

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Speaker 1: China Diese and her Australian boyfriend, twenty three year old

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Speaker 1: Lucas Fowler, were brutallyque gunned down on a lonely Canadian

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Speaker 1: road just three hundred miles away. No longer considered good boys,

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Speaker 1: they're now considered deadly. Consider them dangerous, Do not approach,

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Speaker 1: Take no action, and call immediately. Nine one one. Two

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Speaker 1: kids on an adventure? What who? The hay said that

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Speaker 1: had to be one of their fathers. Two kids, Two

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Speaker 1: kids on an adventure. You know, I just took the

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Speaker 1: twins to scout camp. Now that was an adventure. Would

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Speaker 1: hike back and forth to the mess house. We would

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Speaker 1: do woodcutting, and Lucy got on a horse. It was awesome.

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Speaker 1: That's an adventure. This so called adventure involves three dead bodies,

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Speaker 1: including a gorgeous American girl and her fiance, dead on

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Speaker 1: the side of the road. That is hardly an adventure.

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Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for

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Speaker 1: being with us right now. A tiny village in the

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Speaker 1: sites the crosshairs of police on lockdown in a man

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Speaker 1: hunt for a serial killer. A group of suspects after

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Speaker 1: they're apparently spotted foraging for food. Did locals unwittingly help them?

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Speaker 1: Joining me an all star lineup? Jason Ocean's renowned defense attorney.

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Speaker 1: Karen Smith, forensics expert, founder of Bare Bones Consulting. Karen

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Speaker 1: Starts psychologists out of Manhattan. You can find her at

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Speaker 1: Karenstart dot com and joining me right now Crime online

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Speaker 1: dot Com investigative reporter Ellen Kilauren Ellen, I want to

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Speaker 1: start at the beginning. What happened July fifteenth, The bodies

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Speaker 1: of a young couple, Lucas follower and his girlfriend, China Geese,

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Speaker 1: who from North Carolina, who were traveling together on a

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Speaker 1: road trip or found shot to death in a remote

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Speaker 1: area of Highway ninety seven. Four days later, a burned

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Speaker 1: body is found about a mile away from a burnt

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Speaker 1: out pickup trucks about three hundred miles away. As a

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Speaker 1: matter of fact, AKA, take a listen to our friend

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Speaker 1: Matt Gutman at GMA. Is there anything that links these

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Speaker 1: two separate events, the decent Fowler murders and the death

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Speaker 1: of this unidentified man, not that we're aware of right now.

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Speaker 1: They're the link. They're the link. Police believe they first

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Speaker 1: murdered Dicon Fowler by their van and then three days

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Speaker 1: later the other man. They were less spotted in this

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Speaker 1: twenty eleven Toyota rav four. Police releasing this photo of

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Speaker 1: the pair in Saskatchewan Tuesday. They now tell ABC News

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Speaker 1: the teams maybe in Manitoba, over two thousand miles away

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Speaker 1: from the location of the murders overnight. Dis's brother, through

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Speaker 1: his grief, speaking to GMA, calling for justice. None of

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Speaker 1: this is going to change, not having the most beautiful

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Speaker 1: person in our lives anymore. But I just hope that

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Speaker 1: whoever did this can get what they deserve now. Police

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Speaker 1: tell us that they don't have any criminal record. These

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Speaker 1: teams weren't on their radar. They've traveled over two thousand miles,

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Speaker 1: mostly in rural Canada, but also in national parks, which

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Speaker 1: is why police are urging to remain vigilant, because these

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Speaker 1: two are considered armed and dangerous, and because there's this

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Speaker 1: massive manhunt on. Police tell us they could be just

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Speaker 1: one tip away from closing in on it. Did I

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Speaker 1: just hear Alan Colorin that they could be two thousand

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Speaker 1: miles away from the dead bodies. It's truly amazing, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: how far these two suspects have been able to go

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Speaker 1: without being apprehended. If yes, it absolutely looks like they

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Speaker 1: have gone two thousand miles away through the help of

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Speaker 1: stolen cards. Well, okay, I'm getting ahead of myself. Tell

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Speaker 1: me about these two victims. I know one is an

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Speaker 1: American girl that was on kind of a dream road

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Speaker 1: trip with her fiance. They're both, of course gorgeous. He's

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Speaker 1: from I think Australia. They're seeing the world I think,

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Speaker 1: traveling in a van and suddenly nobody hears from them,

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Speaker 1: and that's when their bodies are found. What do you

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Speaker 1: know about them? That's all correct, Nancy, what you said.

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Speaker 1: Lucas Filer as an Australian native. His father is actually

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Speaker 1: a police officer. Um. They had been together for a

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Speaker 1: couple of years. They both loved to travel, they loved

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Speaker 1: each other, and that's what they were doing. The very

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Speaker 1: last thing that the very last image that we saw

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Speaker 1: of them was at a gas station not long before

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Speaker 1: they were murdered. And there and they're in they're in

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Speaker 1: an embrace. What about the girl. She is from North Carolina,

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Speaker 1: She's an American. She met her her boyfriend while they

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Speaker 1: were traveling because that's what they both loved to do,

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Speaker 1: and she joined him on a road trip in through

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Speaker 1: through the country of Canada. Ak's referring to China. Dece

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Speaker 1: just twenty three years old of North Carolina. The boyfriend

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Speaker 1: Lucas Fowler twenty four years old. Dad a hop. How

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Speaker 1: does Leonard Dyke sixty five of Vancouver fit into this scenario? AKA, well,

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Speaker 1: we don't even know yet how he was killed, but

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Speaker 1: we know that he was Leonard Dyke, again, someone who

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Speaker 1: would not have had any enemies. He was a university professor.

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Speaker 1: He is a botanist, and his body is found four

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Speaker 1: days after Lucas and China burn. Take a listen to

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Speaker 1: what the father of one of the two, as they

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Speaker 1: are called baby Face suspects, has to say. They hung

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Speaker 1: on it all the time. Briar never had Cam stay

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Speaker 1: at his mom's house or or his grandmother's. It was

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Speaker 1: always a Cam's place, or they had a few other

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Speaker 1: close friends and and they'd have their campouts and all that.

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Speaker 1: I don't know much. I just I don't want knows

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Speaker 1: Cam's family, Okay, So I know they're hurting as much

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Speaker 1: as I am. I know they're very confused. All I

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Speaker 1: can say is my son did not have any real guns.

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Speaker 1: My son did not have a vehicle. My son does

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Speaker 1: not know how to drive. He was very introverted and

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Speaker 1: he is very heavy into video games. When he came

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Speaker 1: to work for me for the summer, I didn't pay

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Speaker 1: him and I just had a very expensive customer computer

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Speaker 1: for him, which he was quite content with. You know,

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Speaker 1: he wasn't into the ones where you know, yeah, your

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Speaker 1: machine gun and go shooting people. He was worrying into

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Speaker 1: strategy where you move your troops here and there. Strategy

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Speaker 1: has turned awfully real right now with a discovery of

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Speaker 1: three dead bodies, including a twenty three year old North

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Speaker 1: Carolina girl who was out for the adventure of a lifetime.

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Speaker 1: Can you imagine her parents probably first of all worried

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Speaker 1: about her. Then as the weeks passed and she would

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Speaker 1: check in all the time, they would think, oh, would

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Speaker 1: have grant adventure. Wish I could have done something like

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Speaker 1: that when I was growing up, but I had to

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Speaker 1: go straight to work. Blah blah blah. She's dead, She's gone.

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Speaker 1: And now these two that are called baby faced killers

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Speaker 1: are on the run of been leading police in a

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Speaker 1: wild goose chase now for two weeks and apparently are

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Speaker 1: getting away with it. Two suspected serial killers have now

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Speaker 1: been spotted, but still on the run. A tip was

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Speaker 1: received that the two teens were in the York Landing

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Speaker 1: Manitoba area. There are a lot of conflicting reports, but

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Speaker 1: what we're learning is they were apparently seeing at a

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Speaker 1: community landfill foraging for food. So how did two seemingly

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Speaker 1: innocent boys end up like this Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 1: This case has taken a dramatic turn and police are

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Speaker 1: now saying that they are casting a wide net They

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Speaker 1: believe the teens are on the run, that they may

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Speaker 1: have changed their appearance, and police have evidence to suggest

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Speaker 1: they may already be thousands of miles away. If you

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Speaker 1: spot Briar or Cam, consider them dangerous. An intense manhunt

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Speaker 1: is underway for two Canadian teens, Cam McLoud and Briar shmcgilski,

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Speaker 1: now suspects in three deaths on rural roads in British Columbia, Canada.

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Speaker 1: The search comes more than a week after the bodies

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Speaker 1: of North Carolina native China Deese and Australian Lucas Fowler

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Speaker 1: were found near their van on the side of the road.

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Speaker 1: The young couple seen here hugging at a gas station

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Speaker 1: two days before being found or on a road trip.

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Speaker 1: There was a van bult gown. We just pulled over

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Speaker 1: re see if they needed help. Curtis Broughton and his

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Speaker 1: wife Sandra say they met the pair shortly before they died,

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Speaker 1: leaving the young travelers only after they felt the couple

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Speaker 1: knew how to repair their broken down van. They were

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Speaker 1: happy and smiling, and they were here on their road trip,

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Speaker 1: and they just looked like a young couple in love.

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Speaker 1: The mystery deep in late last week when another body

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Speaker 1: was found some three hundred miles away, also on a

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Speaker 1: remote Canadian our friend Dat CBS Janet shamelin the manhunting

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Speaker 1: mystery going on right now, suspects Cam mccloyd, Brush mcgulski.

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Speaker 1: What we know is a twenty four year old man,

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Speaker 1: Lucas Fowler, his North Carolina girlfriend China D's just twenty

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Speaker 1: three and now a potential college professor, all victims of

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Speaker 1: the two so called baby faced killers. I don't know anything.

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Speaker 1: Have they even got that nickname to? Jason Oceans joining

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Speaker 1: me right now now on defense attorney, joining me out

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Speaker 1: of New York, New Jersey area. Jason Monikers are attached

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Speaker 1: to killers, and I don't like that because somehow it's

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Speaker 1: seemingly takes away from the reality. Matthy, I agree with you.

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Speaker 1: I hate that that you know, sort of connotation of

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Speaker 1: baby face. It just it does take away from being,

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Speaker 1: you know, an accused murder, multiple murders, and you know,

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Speaker 1: leading US, leading authorities on thousands of miles of chase

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Speaker 1: and keeping people at bay in their own homes. This

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Speaker 1: is rural Canada, you know, greater than the size of

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Speaker 1: the United States and thirty million people. Most of this

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Speaker 1: land out here in the West is uninhabited. People might

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Speaker 1: not have access to knowing what's going on. Hey, Jason,

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Speaker 1: you know that my Hallmark movies and they're not mine.

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Speaker 1: They're Hallmarks, but The Hiley Dean based on my books.

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Speaker 1: I started writing actually around the time I met you,

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Speaker 1: back in nineteen ninety seven, when I knew nobody in

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Speaker 1: New York. Moved up there to start a show with

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Speaker 1: Johnny Cochrane and he would go out every night to

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Speaker 1: fancy parties. He was the band of the hour. After

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Speaker 1: the Simpson Verdict, I go home to my apartment and

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Speaker 1: at first I couldn't even afford a TV. Did get one, though,

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Speaker 1: and I would write started this book long story short.

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Speaker 1: They are shot up in Vancouver, and it's beautiful, beautiful

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Speaker 1: country up there, but you go long, long stretches where

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Speaker 1: you don't see anybody. Jason, I mean, these two's like

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Speaker 1: looking for a needle in haystack. They're in the Continental Divide.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you're absolutely right. I mean in between, you know,

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Speaker 1: the coast of Vancouver and where they're rumored to be

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Speaker 1: is just nothingness. It's beautiful, but it's just wide open

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Speaker 1: and the amount of law enforcement, the resources, those who know,

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Speaker 1: getting posters up, that type of stuff that we do here,

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Speaker 1: and you know in the states out there, it's escaping them.

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Speaker 1: And that's why they're covering large grounds seemingly of you know,

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Speaker 1: being on the loose. It's very scary. Yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: I want to go back to Karen Start, psychologists joining

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Speaker 1: me out of New York. These two have gotten the

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Speaker 1: name I'm talking about the alleged killers Mcgelski and McLoyd.

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Speaker 1: They're young, that's true, but the name baby faced killer.

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Speaker 1: You know, when the twins got to pick somebody. Of course,

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Speaker 1: they can't just write a book report. That would be wrong,

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Speaker 1: Karen Start. They have to not only write a book report, okay,

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Speaker 1: they then have to excuse me, I have to put

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Speaker 1: together a costume for them. Lucy had to be Cleopatra.

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Speaker 1: You know how hard it is to dress her up

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Speaker 1: like Cleopatra? Oh my stars? Okay, and he chose to

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Speaker 1: be Billy the kid. I'm like, son, why are you

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Speaker 1: picking a killer? Because Mom, he's so this and he's

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Speaker 1: so that. I just looked at him. I could not

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Speaker 1: believe my son picked well anyway, So why do we

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Speaker 1: I hope John Navy doesn't hear this. Why do we

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Speaker 1: glamorize killers? Like what about all those women throwing themselves

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Speaker 1: at that low moron Chris Watts who kills his wife

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Speaker 1: Shenan and his two babies. Charles Manson getting love letters?

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Speaker 1: That Jody Arius the Jezebel from hell. She's getting love

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Speaker 1: letters and marriage offers. I don't get it. Why are

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Speaker 1: they the baby face killers? You know? Think about it.

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Speaker 1: You go on a road trip, Karen Stark, you with me?

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Speaker 1: Because I don't hear a peep out of you. I'm listening, Nancy.

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Speaker 1: I'm right there. I'm right Karen Stark. You and your

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Speaker 1: husband Mark go all over the world. Every time I

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Speaker 1: see Karen Stark, I'm like, what, Steve Well, we went

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Speaker 1: to Rome, and we went to Monica, we went to

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Speaker 1: con I'm like, what all I did was go to work?

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Speaker 1: Tell me about I can lift through you. Think about it.

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Speaker 1: You're at one of your many, many luxurious vacations and

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Speaker 1: you're driving along with Mark, your beloved husband, and bam,

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Speaker 1: these two idiots pop up out of nowhere. They are

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Speaker 1: not baby face killers. Why are we saying that there's

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Speaker 1: nothing baby faced about them? These are these are like

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Speaker 1: three killers, Nancy. These are these are killers who they

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Speaker 1: don't take the time to cool down between their killings,

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Speaker 1: so that just encourages them to go from one to

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Speaker 1: the next, and they encourage each other. Usually in a

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Speaker 1: situation like this, one of them is more dominant and

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Speaker 1: the other one more passive. But they have revenge fantasies.

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Speaker 1: Whatever is going on with them. As the father said,

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Speaker 1: one was very introverted and on social media had a

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Speaker 1: lot of Nazi symbolism. And they are not they be

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Speaker 1: innocent to be admired killers. They are cold blooded killers

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Speaker 1: who are having a really good time out there killing

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Speaker 1: people that they don't know, just to get revenge and

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Speaker 1: excitement out of their systems. Revenge for what they didn't

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Speaker 1: even know. These people, what are you talking about? This

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Speaker 1: revenge against society? They feel this enfranchise against society, my

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Speaker 1: rare end. They have had homes, they have been cared for,

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Speaker 1: they have been given three meals a day, an education.

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Speaker 1: Revenge for what, But that's not the reality in their minds.

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Speaker 1: In their minds, they're disenfranchised. In their mind they have jobs,

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Speaker 1: they lose them, and you notice they're supposedly going out

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Speaker 1: there to look for jobs, so they're not feeling very powerful.

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Speaker 1: They are feeling like they can't keep you know, the offense.

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Speaker 1: Wa wait, wait, wait wait, I want to pick up

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Speaker 1: on something you said. Now, no offense Jason Oceans and

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Speaker 1: here in the stud studio, Elie and John, no offense

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Speaker 1: to men in general. But let me circle back here

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Speaker 1: and start to feel powerful. You know, I never want

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Speaker 1: I'm never at one time in my life and I

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Speaker 1: ever wanted to feel powerful. I just want to work,

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Speaker 1: do a good job, come home to the twins, cook

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Speaker 1: a little red beans and rice. You know, watch a

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Speaker 1: little Sherlock Holmes before we fall asleep. What feel powerful?

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Speaker 1: Who wants to feel powerful? Why is it always men

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Speaker 1: that want to feel powerful? Well, I yes, because it

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Speaker 1: has to do with that whole macho feeling of the

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Speaker 1: power behind the gun and the ability. Okay, wait wait

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Speaker 1: wait wait wait Karen start. Jackie Howard here in the

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Speaker 1: studio has just given me a significant update. Jackie Howard

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Speaker 1: and all her intensive legal research has discovered that these

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Speaker 1: two liked to play war games in the woods. Now.

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Speaker 1: You know, when I was little, say nine or ten,

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Speaker 1: I would build fortside a pin straw and we would

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Speaker 1: throw pine couns and sycamore balls, as wrong as that is.

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Speaker 1: But these two, how old are they? How old are they? Ek?

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Speaker 1: How old are these two? Eighteen and nineteen years old?

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Speaker 1: And they're still playing war games in the woods if

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Speaker 1: we are to believe Jackie Howard. Anyway, what does that say,

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Speaker 1: Karen starting They're still playing war games in the woods,

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Speaker 1: running through the woods with fake guns. And I think

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Speaker 1: they also like to play games online. So they really

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Speaker 1: are excited about the idea of being able to shoot

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Speaker 1: a gun and go through the motions of capturing somebody

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Speaker 1: or binding their target. And even though they're eighteen and

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Speaker 1: nineteen years old, they are still two boys who get

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Speaker 1: a charge out of doing that. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace,

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Speaker 1: A clearer and darker picture is emerging of a murder

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Speaker 1: suspect at the center of a cross country man hunt.

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Speaker 1: These photos of Briers mcgilski, sent to CBC by a

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Speaker 1: fellow online gamer, showed the team dressed in camo with

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Speaker 1: a Nazi symbol on display. Is a much different image

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Speaker 1: than the boy people here new in person. He was

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Speaker 1: a nice kid, very quiet. Lisa Lucas lives a few

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Speaker 1: doors down from Shmagelski's grandmother where he often stayed as

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Speaker 1: a child. Her son, Ryland, became quick friends Wish mcgelski.

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Speaker 1: The two played together for years, but eventually grew apart.

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Speaker 1: Ryland just said he just gave off a weird kind

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Speaker 1: of a vibe. He just stopped a while, just started

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Speaker 1: making people feel uncomfortable. She says, her son became concerned

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Speaker 1: Wishmagelski's love for violent video games. He would mention things

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Speaker 1: about like if this was real, you know, like when

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Speaker 1: they're playing video games, like, could you imagine if this

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Speaker 1: was real? Kind of a thing. So and you get

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Speaker 1: a little too excited about it. I guess you were

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Speaker 1: hearing from our friends at the CBC. That was Tanya Fletcher.

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Speaker 1: Who are these guys and who are these victims? Let's see,

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to even think back at age twenty three,

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Speaker 1: I just got out of law school. I think I'll

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Speaker 1: still a Clark for a judge. Oh still just a

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Speaker 1: little baby. This China Day's just twenty three years old

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Speaker 1: of North Carolina. Have you seen her? She's just absolutely beautiful.

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Speaker 1: And the boyfriend looks like a young Fabio. Do you

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Speaker 1: guys remember him? I think posed for the front of

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Speaker 1: Romance novels with Yeah, yeah, yeah. The one bald person

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Speaker 1: in the studio right now is brushing his hair back. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: fabio with a long, beautiful blonde hair. Al macho and

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Speaker 1: all that handsome. That's what this guy looks like. To

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Speaker 1: makes up a young version. These two had this picture

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Speaker 1: perfect romance going. His dad is a cop, she's a

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Speaker 1: North Carolina beauty. They're going on the trip of a

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Speaker 1: lifetime before they settle down for real jobs, traveling the

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Speaker 1: country across in a van, and suddenly their bodies found

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Speaker 1: dead on the side of the road, just just gun

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Speaker 1: down and left there on the side of the road

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Speaker 1: with cars whizzing by. Who did this? Right now? Cops

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Speaker 1: honing in on a very rural area, we believe, and

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Speaker 1: arrest is imminent. With Kim McLoyd and Brian Schmigelski, what happened?

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Speaker 1: Joining me right now. A forensic expert and I have

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Speaker 1: worked with her many times and she is the consummate expert,

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Speaker 1: also the founder of Beer Bones consulting with me right now,

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Speaker 1: Karen Smith. Karen, first of all, let me just start

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Speaker 1: with an elementary question. Tell me about the primary crime

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Speaker 1: scene where the two bodies, the young North Carolina girl

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Speaker 1: China Decee and her boyfriend twenty four, the CoP's son,

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Speaker 1: are found. Then I'll move to a potential third victim,

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Speaker 1: the college professor Leonard Dyke. Well, the first scene is

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Speaker 1: going to be where their van was found on the

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Speaker 1: side of the road. There were reports that one of

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Speaker 1: the back windows was broken. I don't know if that

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Speaker 1: means blown out by a bullet or I don't know

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Speaker 1: if that means broken because it had been broken before.

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Speaker 1: They're going to be looking at the positions of the bodies.

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Speaker 1: How were they positioned on the side of the road,

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Speaker 1: had they been executed, had this been completed at a distance?

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Speaker 1: Wasn't a drive by. They're going to look at the van,

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Speaker 1: what was wrong with it? How was it broken down?

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Speaker 1: Was this a rural road where there are a lot

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Speaker 1: of people that pass by. They're going to be asking

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Speaker 1: people who may have witnessed anything to come forward. You

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Speaker 1: look at the bullets, You look at the ballistics. Mancy,

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Speaker 1: We've talked about this ad nauseum before. The ballistics are

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Speaker 1: going to tell a story, maybe not the story, but

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Speaker 1: a story. What type of gun was it? Was it

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Speaker 1: a rifle? Was it a handgun? Is there any stippling

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Speaker 1: or burned an unburned gunpowder on the body, showing a

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Speaker 1: close contact or close range gun shot. All of those

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Speaker 1: horendics are going to come forward and tell a story.

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Speaker 1: But it doesn't give us the name and address of

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Speaker 1: a suspect. It just tells us the ballistics and what

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Speaker 1: may have happened at that scene. So they really have

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Speaker 1: their work cut out for them. Tell me how you

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Speaker 1: believe Karen Smith Barebone's consulting that the two bodies of

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Speaker 1: China Decee and Lucas Fowler can be connected to that

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Speaker 1: the college professor Leonard Dyke. Well, at this point, we're

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Speaker 1: looking at ballistics. If Leonard Dyke was shot, and from

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Speaker 1: report says that he was, they're going to look to

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Speaker 1: try and match the bullets from the first scene where

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Speaker 1: the two were gunned down to the Leonard Dike scene

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Speaker 1: where he was apparently gunned down. If they can match

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Speaker 1: those ballistics, we're going to show that it was the

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Speaker 1: same person or the same gun anyway that fired those bullets.

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Speaker 1: So those links are going to be critical in the

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Speaker 1: turning point. It also gives a traveling pattern of the

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Speaker 1: people who may have committed these crimes. Which direction they

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Speaker 1: were going, where then they have been headed And at

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Speaker 1: this point, I'm really just hoping that the Royal Canadian

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Speaker 1: Mountain Police can use all of their resources and find

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Speaker 1: these guys. They need to be office free. Take a

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Speaker 1: listen to our friends, CBS reporter Janet Shamalen. Police say

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Speaker 1: they'd found a truck on fire that belonged to the

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Speaker 1: Canadian teen suspects about a mile from the man's body.

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Speaker 1: We believe that they're likely continuing to travel. These are

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Speaker 1: newly released recent photos of the teen suspects, last seen

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Speaker 1: driving a twenty eleven silver Toyota rav four. Police believe

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Speaker 1: they've left British Columbia and maybe in Manitoba, thousands of

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Speaker 1: miles away. Investigators won't say what evidence connects the teens

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Speaker 1: to their killings. For Lucas Fowler's father, the loss is unimaginable.

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Speaker 1: As a police officer, you work with families all the time,

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Speaker 1: but nothing prepares me, Nothing prepares my family for what

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Speaker 1: we are going through now, a father's heartbreak. And so

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Speaker 1: the families of these teams that they haven't seen them

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Speaker 1: for several days and they believe the teenage were just

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Speaker 1: were out on the road looking for work. Meanwhile, the

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Speaker 1: families of this young couple, the American and that Australian

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Speaker 1: and the father you saw just there asking this question

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Speaker 1: about motive, what could have sparked what seems to be

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Speaker 1: a random murder. Of course, the state never has to

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Speaker 1: prove a motive, isn't that right? Jason Ocean's estate, I,

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Speaker 1: for instance, me trying a case. I don't have to

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Speaker 1: climb into these guy's heads and figure out why did

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Speaker 1: they do it? Why? What were they thinking? What were

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Speaker 1: they tired of playing Minecraft in their mommy's basement? I

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Speaker 1: don't know. Are they tired of running through the woods

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Speaker 1: with an air soft? I don't know, And I don't

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Speaker 1: have to know. I just have to know I've got

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Speaker 1: the right person and the right jurisdiction and the right

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Speaker 1: victims and a general time span. That's what I need

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Speaker 1: to know, and I need to be able to prove

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Speaker 1: it beyond a reasonable doubt. So motive, motive. But I

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Speaker 1: will say, Jason, I am curious. Don't you think juries

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Speaker 1: want to just out of curiosity? No, a motive, they do, Nancy.

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Speaker 1: I mean, then, and as I listened to you speak,

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Speaker 1: once a prosecutor, always a prosecutor, and certainly motive doesn't matter.

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Speaker 1: It's just part of a story. As you say, juries

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Speaker 1: like to hear that these are lay people who want

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Speaker 1: to know. But what happened? How did these you know,

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Speaker 1: eighteen nineteen year olds teenagers quote unquote in a bad way,

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Speaker 1: baby faced killers? How did they get to this point?

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Speaker 1: So you know, part of that is a background, their

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Speaker 1: family background. One of them is comes from a you know,

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Speaker 1: a ruptured family in terms of parents divorced and contentious

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Speaker 1: going on for years. Not that that's any excuse. Well wait, wait, wait, wait,

425
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:11,880
Speaker 1: please please start, Please start, Jason, Jason, Jason, Jason. Are

426
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:14,680
Speaker 1: you seriously saying because the parents slid up, because the

427
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:18,119
Speaker 1: parents notting that's why they went on a murder spree?

428
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:20,240
Speaker 1: Because it sounds like you just did, Nancy, I'm not.

429
00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:22,240
Speaker 1: I'm just saying, but that's a part of your question

430
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:24,120
Speaker 1: as to what is moving. Didn't I hear you say

431
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:27,439
Speaker 1: ruptured family? Was that not you? That must have been

432
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:29,200
Speaker 1: Jackie Howard here in the studio, because I know I

433
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:32,040
Speaker 1: heard somebody say I've got a ruptured family. You gotta

434
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:33,600
Speaker 1: give me a little bit better than that. The thing

435
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:37,000
Speaker 1: you're you're looking promotive. I mean, we're we're all supposing

436
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:40,200
Speaker 1: what it might be. But one's uh, you know, one's

437
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:43,560
Speaker 1: reclusive and recalcitrens in his life. The other one is uh,

438
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:47,639
Speaker 1: you know, uh, got anger issues and more dominant, as

439
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:51,480
Speaker 1: Karen Stark said, And here they're off on their adventure,

440
00:26:51,840 --> 00:27:09,040
Speaker 1: unfortunately with horrible uh and deadly consequences. Crime stories with

441
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:14,359
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. So as his influencers haven't been good, his

442
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:18,239
Speaker 1: influencers have been YouTube and video games. They never got

443
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:20,719
Speaker 1: in trouble with the law. They never got into fights.

444
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 1: You know. They were just hanging out and having a

445
00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 1: good time. They weren't scrappers, they weren't cursors, you know.

446
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:31,760
Speaker 1: They didn't go play mister Man like manche No. They

447
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:35,800
Speaker 1: were just everyday regular kids. But both of them have

448
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:39,040
Speaker 1: to have a lot of pain inside, both of them.

449
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:43,359
Speaker 1: They had told me that the Walmart jobs just weren't

450
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:45,159
Speaker 1: cutting it. They were going to go to Alberta and

451
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,760
Speaker 1: make some proper money. I believe that's what they were

452
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 1: going to do. And I was absolutely flabbergasted to learn that.

453
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:53,480
Speaker 1: Two days later, and I found this out from the

454
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:57,040
Speaker 1: paper that they were up in the Yukon initially, it

455
00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:02,119
Speaker 1: looks like they were victims as well, right initially, And

456
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:05,200
Speaker 1: it's really tough for me to see in the paper

457
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:09,960
Speaker 1: today photos of them alive and well in Saskatchewan. So

458
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:12,440
Speaker 1: now they're not lost in the woods. You are hearing

459
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:15,959
Speaker 1: the father of BRIERSH mcgulski, speaking, Did I just hear

460
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:19,640
Speaker 1: him say they're victims as well? I've got three dead

461
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:23,400
Speaker 1: bodies I'm trying to connect right now, and apparently they

462
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:28,119
Speaker 1: are absolutely connected to at least two of them, apparently

463
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:33,480
Speaker 1: on a killing spree everyday, regular kids, they're victims as well.

464
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:37,440
Speaker 1: Blaming YouTube and online for influencing them. Hey, there's something

465
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 1: more than YouTube and playing games online that set these

466
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,120
Speaker 1: two off. Again, it doesn't matter what set them off.

467
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 1: What matters is apprehending these two. Kim McCloy Briers mcgelski,

468
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 1: now believed to have murdered three people. Questions straight out

469
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:57,720
Speaker 1: to Alan klarein crimalline dot Com investigative reporter. Could they

470
00:28:57,920 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 1: be getting help from someone they've been on the run

471
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,480
Speaker 1: two weeks, Well, yes, Nancy, and there's a lot of

472
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 1: questions about how they've been able to evade police and

473
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:07,680
Speaker 1: what you accurately described as a wild goose chain. So

474
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:11,200
Speaker 1: police did think there was a possibility that someone perhaps

475
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 1: inadvertently had helped them relocate from Gillham, Manitoba, which is

476
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 1: where they were for for several days without any sightings.

477
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 1: They have since been spotted about fifty six miles away

478
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:27,880
Speaker 1: in a remote area. But just because it's only fifty

479
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:29,800
Speaker 1: six miles away doesn't mean it's easy to get you.

480
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 1: This is very rough terrain. It would take several hours

481
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 1: to drive. So yes, police do suspect that's possible that

482
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 1: someone is helping them, either not knowing who they are

483
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:43,480
Speaker 1: and what they're what they're why they're the subject of

484
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 1: a man hunt, or perhaps, as one force said, they're

485
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:53,040
Speaker 1: not friendly to beliefs and maybe the suspects are paid. Stop.

486
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:58,480
Speaker 1: They are not kids. There three dead bodies. Okay, just

487
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:00,960
Speaker 1: hold on, hold on a k think of China, did

488
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:04,200
Speaker 1: right getting cold? You're right, yeah, lying on the side

489
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:07,520
Speaker 1: of the road, dead from a series of gunshot wounds,

490
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:11,239
Speaker 1: most likely at close range, and laying there till our

491
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:13,480
Speaker 1: body gets cold, with cars whizzing by out in the

492
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:16,040
Speaker 1: middle of nowhere. Now did I hear you say the

493
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 1: word kids? Yes, they are not kids. They're both adults

494
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:22,480
Speaker 1: and they have one of them at least has a

495
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:25,840
Speaker 1: history of making very violent comments, going back to when

496
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 1: he was in the seventh grade. I explain that to me,

497
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 1: what are you talking about. A classmate of his, who

498
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:33,720
Speaker 1: a female classmate who was who was with him in

499
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:36,320
Speaker 1: the seventh grade, said that even all the way back then,

500
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:40,360
Speaker 1: he would make comments about killing other students and then

501
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:45,160
Speaker 1: killing himself. Which one was that that's um briar Chmagilski.

502
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:47,040
Speaker 1: We know a lot more about him than we do

503
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 1: about Kama Cloud. Well, what do we know about him?

504
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 1: We know that he was very active on video gaming sites.

505
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:56,080
Speaker 1: So with the other one, his father had spoken out

506
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 1: a lot about how he was purportedly very damaged by

507
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:03,240
Speaker 1: divorce that happened when he was only five years old.

508
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 1: We know that he had his father thought him an

509
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 1: air street an toy gun basically that kind of looks

510
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 1: like a real gun, and that he would play in

511
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:15,960
Speaker 1: the woods with those. We know that he made comment

512
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:19,719
Speaker 1: online on these gaming platforms saying that he was sympathetic

513
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:22,480
Speaker 1: to Nazis. We know that he sent a photo to

514
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 1: another gamer of Nazi paraphernalia. We know that he brought

515
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 1: his father hold on to the second, what is this?

516
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 1: To Karen Smith, forensics expert, founder of beer Buds Consulting,

517
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 1: what are the air soft rifles? Explaining that basically it's

518
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:37,760
Speaker 1: just a lookalike Nancy, it's you use a canister of

519
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 1: air to propel a pellet through the barrel rather than

520
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:44,600
Speaker 1: a bullet. Listen, this is not a toy. Okay, this

521
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:48,080
Speaker 1: can hurt people. It is not something to be taken lightly.

522
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:51,280
Speaker 1: And when you have a young man, a young killer

523
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:55,240
Speaker 1: that has been trained with this lookalike gun, it takes

524
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:57,720
Speaker 1: the you know, ask Karen Stark about this. It takes

525
00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:00,520
Speaker 1: the reality out of their brain and it makes sixty

526
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 1: on something more real, something that they want to do. Wait,

527
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:06,480
Speaker 1: there's something I don't understand here. So they have this

528
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:10,240
Speaker 1: airsoft rifle which is basically like I guess, a paintball rifle.

529
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 1: And hey, those things hurt, by the way, but this

530
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:16,719
Speaker 1: isn't They were killed in Canada. Don't they have very

531
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:19,760
Speaker 1: strick gun control in Canada. To Karen Smith, they do,

532
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:22,120
Speaker 1: but that doesn't prevent straw purchase of Nancy. You know

533
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 1: that as well as I do. Well, all I know

534
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 1: is every time I go to Canada to tape a

535
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:28,160
Speaker 1: hall mart. Maybe the first thing the cab driver says

536
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 1: is something about the American government and gun control. That's

537
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 1: why I'm curious. But that's neither here nor there. The

538
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 1: investigators have described the terrain that they are scouring as

539
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:41,680
Speaker 1: extremely rough and at this point, what are the chances

540
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 1: the accused killers will be captured alive? Akacially, Nancy, I

541
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 1: thought we were all going to wake up to the

542
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 1: news this morning that they had been captured because they

543
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 1: have been spotted in a remote area. We don't know

544
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:57,440
Speaker 1: what kind of tactical equipment they have, but we know

545
00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:01,360
Speaker 1: that even trained police officers are facing a lot of

546
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 1: challenges with this terrain. It's very remote. There's polar bears,

547
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 1: there's black bears. It's not an easy area to canvas.

548
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 1: So it's really remarkable that these suspects are still out there,

549
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:18,680
Speaker 1: and I don't think that they will be for much longer,

550
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 1: and I don't think police do either. And one of

551
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:22,720
Speaker 1: the suspects fathers at the same thing, Well, you know

552
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 1: to Karen Start, psychologist joining me out in Manhattan. You

553
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 1: can find out Karen Start dot com. We also know,

554
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 1: based on newly released images of the two, they have

555
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 1: an obsession with Nazism. Now, what does that tell you

556
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 1: about their mindset? Karen start, Well, their mindset is evil.

557
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:44,560
Speaker 1: I mean that what they are admiring that the killing

558
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:48,120
Speaker 1: machine of the Nazis and the fact that they were

559
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:52,200
Speaker 1: looking for a superior race. So as I said, they're

560
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:57,240
Speaker 1: disenfranchised for whatever reason. They are really wanting to go

561
00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 1: out there and have this power of just killing people

562
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 1: and being able. And I think they were fueled off

563
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 1: of by the fact that they did one killing and

564
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 1: then they could go ahead and do another. And they

565
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:14,880
Speaker 1: were encouraging each other, which is not unusual, one dominant

566
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:18,799
Speaker 1: one less so. But obsessed with this idea of being

567
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:22,320
Speaker 1: able to take over, and they're going to admire anything

568
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:27,799
Speaker 1: that's evil, that is against society, the benefit of society,

569
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:32,279
Speaker 1: and has to do with control the father. Briars mcgilski

570
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:37,520
Speaker 1: says this. A normal child doesn't travel across the country

571
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:44,880
Speaker 1: killing people. Child in some very serious pain does Mounties.

572
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:50,160
Speaker 1: We're going to shoot first and ask questions later. Basically,

573
00:34:51,280 --> 00:35:03,600
Speaker 1: he's going to be dead today or tomorrow. I knew facts. Pie,

574
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 1: Oh so sorry, could I'm gonna boast kill you and

575
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:13,840
Speaker 1: my stars. That's just breaking my heart. And yes I

576
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 1: know that's the father of one of the alleged killers,

577
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:18,600
Speaker 1: Brush mcguel's keeper. He is still a dad and he

578
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:22,799
Speaker 1: still loves his son no matter what. What a nightmare

579
00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 1: we wait as justice and false. Remember, if you see

580
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:31,799
Speaker 1: these two, do not approach them. Please call nine one one.

581
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace Crime Story, signing off, goodbye friend,